Pag. 1. REformat. Whilest we the meanest of many, &c. wait for uni­formity in Religion, so much desired by all the Godly in the three Kingdoms; unto which an entrance is made by a solemn League, and Covenant.

Apologet. We approve (worthy brethren) your expectation as just, and confesse our own desires of it, so as Reformation be not taken indebite in a strict stinted sence, but according to your lati­tude expressed pag. 15. We are (say you) neither so ignorant, nor so arrogant as to ascribe to the Church of Scotland (its your own phrase) such absolute purity and perfection, as hath not need, or cannot admit of further Reformation. So you. A golden peace signifying speech as if dropped from the mouth of some Chrysostome, or conceived by some Ireneus; pluck you that end, and we the other likewise, and we shall be fastned with a Cordian knot. Of which our endeavour you have a full testimony in our League and Covenant, wherein we swear to indeavour the preservation of the reformed Religion in Scotland; we say of Religion and Reformed; is, or shall be; and till further reformation, we will preserve it against our common enemie, that you be not made to retreat from that you have wonne. And that we will indeavour the reformation of Religion in the Kingdoms of England and Ireland in doctrine, worship, discipline and government, according to the Word of God, & the example of the best reformed Churches. So farre the Covenant. Wherein it is as evident as if written with a Sunne beame, that the Churches of England have not ingaged themselves to come down to you, or do bind you to come to us, but the common rendevous where we must all meet is the best re­formed Churches: and that according to the word of God, which is that Standard of perfection that must weigh and measure out unto us our uniformity.

Reformat. We find our selves bound against the prejudices, and mis­takings of some who in the dark are afraid of that which they know not, and suffer their affections of love and hatred to run before their understand­ing; and against the mis-representations and indirect aspersions of others who do so commend their own way, that the reformed Churches thereby suffer disparagement; to give that testimony unto the order and government of the reformed Churches, and particularly of the Church of Scotland, which they do well deserve.

Apologet. Ah deare brethren, why would ye speak thus? Do these expressions (in the judgement of candor) suit with your pro­fession, pag. 2. where you promise that you indeavour nothing but a simple and innocent manifestation and defence, without desire or intention to give the smallest offence to any who fear God, love the truth, and, &c. So you. Let an impartiall Angel speak, whether multitudes of gracious hearts are not justly offended at this bitternesse so unseasonably administred, and applied too, to wrong parties? Ah, how easie is it by our self-mistasting hearts (like the sorry Artificer that makes two cracks, whiles he is patching and hammering up one) rather to cause prejudices, then cure them. You may be con­fident (let all the world look upon the Apologie and judge) that the five Members of the Assembly cast no prejudices upon you, to whom you have so hastily replied. And for private barkings of inconsiderate and inconsiderable men, they are either un­known or un-owned (as is supposed) by men of your gravitie. All wise men generally are silently intentive, expecting not paper replyes, but disputed Positions from the Assembly, grounded on Scripture. And therefore this paper comes abroad onely to be­seech that on either side there may be committed no more brea­ches of the peace Ecclesiastick, and to leave the Apologie (if it may be) under the same candid opinion that rayed forth upon it afore this cloud came and interposed. Sure if the Houses of Parliament allow any of the Assembly differing in opinion touching the matters proposed to them (whereof Discipline is one) to present their judgements with their reasons unto the said Houses;So the Ordi­nance for the Assembly. p. 5. you cannot judge it a crime to send forth a prodromum presented to the Parliament to tell them and you how farre they close with you and other reformed Churches, and dissent from the Separation and Brownists. And therefore have not deserved to be whipt with a reply. Pardon the phrase, for indeed it is a [Page 3] smart stroke upon the spirits of understanding men, and standing forth in and for a publick Ecclesiasticall cause to be taxed for those who in the dark are afraid of that which they know not, and to suffer their affections, &c. to run before their understanding, &c. Sweet bre­thren do you call your books (frequent among us) the government of the Church of Scotland the Assertion of your government, the peaceable Plea darknesse? Or do you think that the Elders of the Quinque Ecclesiae, or others that study Discipline to be dark? Are we not morall men (voluntas vult ut intellectus intelligit) to understand first, and affect after? Or wherein hath appeared this preposterous­nesse towards you, whiles the Apologie smiles upon you, and sweetly cals you and Holland by name the more reformed Churches, Apol. p. 6. do you give them one such a kind word in all your Reply? And more then that, you call not your selves, confessing a need of further Reformation as we noted, and quoted afore. If then they have commended your Churches according to your own judgements of your selves, how hath their commendation of other Churches appeared to discommend yours? especially whiles they com­mend not their own for so perfect, but that they found a necessity of holding this for one of their three rules by which they walk­ed, in these words;Apol. p. 10.11. Not to make our present judgement and practise a binding law unto our selves for future, which we likewise made continuall profession of upon all occasions. We had too great an instance of our own frailty in the former way of conformity; and therefore in a jealousie of our selves, we kept this reserve (which we made open and constant professions of) to alter and retract (though not lightly) what ever should be discovered to be taken up out of a misunderstanding af the rule. So far the Apolog. There is yet one thing more that makes the Apologists more con­fident of their candor, in that it received so great an approba­tion from so pious and learned a man of your judgement, and a Member of the Assembly: As on the other side, though the As­sembly voted you thanks, yet was it onely for the books you gave them, not for the Reply, as it was expresse (to that effect) in the vote, if observation fail not.

Reformat. pag. 2. Our wayes since our coming into this Kingdom have been, and (so farre as the truth will suffer us) ever shall be, to unite, and not to divide; to compose rather then to create differences; the principall end of the Assembly of Divines.

Apol. Yet so contrary a face and voice to that, did this paper seem to have at first blush and sound thereof, that some thoughts and throbs of heart began to doubt whether this blow (intended for a second) upon an imagination of a first, were not given by some to carry on the designe of utter dis-uniting the Pres­byterians from others; or at least to put them into a capacitie to be challenged and contended with; till the Title appeared By the Commissioners of the Assembly of Scotland; and then all thoughts were turned to wonder, that such grave personages should once think that this their paper could in the least, tend to compos all, or prove pacificatorie; especially seeing it did carry a shew of taking the businesse out of the hands of the Assembly (which you here mention) if the Apologie in any thing had been to be bla­med. But however notwithstanding this extrajudiciall and ex­centricall act thus happening, we trust, and shall indeavour that there may not be the least mis-contending in any kind about it, though many godly hearts may be grieved at it, and none can help it. These lines we now pen are rather to intreat all not to mistake the Apologie, then to take you up.

Reformat. pag. 3. The order and government of the reformed Churches in the beauty and strength thereof, as it is not hid in a corner, wrapped up in a mystery, or, covered under a cloud of darknesse, but is known to the Nations and kingdoms of the earth, openly professed and practised in the eyes of the world, &c. so it is commended and already confirmed by a long tract of time.

Apol. Yet we presume you will joyne issue with us in this a­gainst the Papists, that neither visibilitie, nor succession are es­sentiall notes of a true Church. The holy Ghost prophesied that the true Church, Revel. 12. should be hid in the wildernesse for a long time; as yours and ours were many yeers before Luthers time. You your selves confesse, pag. 16. That the usurpation and ty­ranny of Prelates and Prelaticall party, did a time so reigne and rage in your Kingdom, vexing the godly Ministery and people, that those that went to New England durst not venter to come to you to find a visible Church li­berty. And pag. 11. That you long time could but intend and designe the government of the Church by Assemblies and Presbyteries. So you. How visible soever the Churches be, the eyes of the world (of which you speak) will take but little cognizance; or if they do, will give but a slender testimonie to them; whiles one Church differing [Page 5] but in some peeces of Discipline, will so dis-favour others that jump not with them. Blessed be God (brethren) that God hath made a Rehoboth for you,Gen. 26.22. that you are not now kept up in a cor­ner. Though other Churches have not yet attained that inlarge­ment of place and peace, yet they keep not up their minds in a mystery if Narrations, Apologies and Disputes may make men un­derstand. And as for the clouds of darknesse which may cover them; who can hinder the winds if they blow and bring black weather out of the North, or West, to obscure them that love not to sit out of the Sunne beams; much lesse to be wrapt up in black sheets. But they desire with patience and peace to bear all; wait­ing till that great Question be resolved, which Discipline be the truly ancientest, and of longest tract of time (hic labor, hoc opus) and not to begge the question.

Reformat. p. 4. The instruments which the Lord used in the blessed work of Reformation of the Church of Scotland, were not onely learned and holy men, but had somewhat in their callings, and gifts, and zeal to the glory of God, more then ordinary. Some of them had a propheticall spirit; and some of them were honoured to be Martyrs.

Apologet. Nor hath the Lord (blessed be his name) left us with­out such. Persecuted Brightman (whom p. 15. you name with ho­nour) had those gifts of learning, zeal, and spirit of prophesie you mention; compare the late events both in your Kingdome and ours with his Comment on the Revel. who though he did justly preferre your Churches in his time before some others, yet not a Classicall Presbytery before a Congregationall govern­ment, for ought that we have read or heard. And what lesse then a spirit of prophesie was in that holy Martyr persecuted to death by the Bp. that said,1 Sam. 3.11. that the Lord would bring in his own discipline in his time in that way as would make all their eares to tingle: Which Scrip­ture phrase, was construed to be treason, though since like a pro­phesie it is fulfilled. For martyrdome unto a civill death we can say somewhat more, thovgh we do but mention Cartwrit, and Parker, whom you justly mention with honour in your Peaceable Plea. But we list not to inlarge; therefore we omit our brethren in New England. Because though martyrdome be a kinde of seal, yet being a broad seal to all the truths in the Scripture, it doth not distinguish ad api [...]em, to put a greater impression on one truth then on another. For in all ages some Saints have by suf­fering [Page 6] chiefly sealed to some present truth: 2 Pet. 1.12. as the Apostles against Judaisme, the Saints in the ten persecutions against Hethenisme, Atha­nasius against Arrianisme, Luther against Papisme, You against Pre­lacy. And others against an Ecclesiasticall coactive power where Christ hath not setled it.

Reformat. pag. 7. As the Church of Scotland agreed in some things with the reformed Churches, so it cannot be satisfactory that any Church should onely practise some things universally received in the re­formed Churches.

Apol. A bare relation of the words of the Apologie is a suffi­cient answer to this, which are these. 1 The supreme rule without us was the primitive pattern and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles. 2 Not to make our present judgement and practise a binding law unto our selves for future. 3 That in matters of greatest moment and controversie we still chose to practise safely, and so as we had reason to judge that all sorts, or the most of all Churches did acknowledge warrantable. So the Apolog. By which words it is apparent that their intent and endeavour was not onely to practise some things universally recei­ved in the reformed Churches; but to go full as far forth, as the Churches founded by the Apostles. But for matters of greatest mo­ment and controversie, in what particulars the reformed Churches (in their best judgements) left the pattern of the Apostolicall Churches, there they suspended their assent and practise, but joyning with them in the rest. Keeping this for a reserve, that when further light should come in, that they might do more lawfully, then formerly they durst do; then to do it, and be dis­ingaged from their former judgement and practise, which in ef­fect you professe, pag. 15. saying, that the Church of Scotland may admit of further reformation. Therefore it is supposed that for the present you onely practise some things of reformation; and that for future when you have more light and power, you will advance from your present practise to a further.

Reformat. pag. 6. They did honour Luther and Calvin, &c. who had an heart or hand, &c. in the blessed work of Reformation, &c. But for this to call us Calvinians, and the reformed Churches Calvinian reformed Churches, is to disgrace the true Churches of Christ, and to symbolize with the Papists, who call themselves the Catholick Church, &c. The Separation may be well allowed to be called Brownists.

Apologet. Ah brethren, from what spirit comes all this? The [Page 7] whole designe of framing a confutation of a plain, simple, mo­dest, single hearted narration, relished bitter upon multitudes of godly and judicious palates. But here we have met (if we mis­take not the drug) with the Coloquintida, or if it be intended for a better Recipe, it is scalding hot, if our taste fails us not. Can the Apologie possibly be conceived in the word Calvinian to in­tend the least grain of disgrace to any? Is it not the terme used in all the true Christian Churches for distinctions sake from the more corrupt Lutheran? Is it not in opposition to them (more cor­rupt) a terme of honour? Was it not used of purpose to decline the word Presbiterian, that lesse offence might be taken whiles the termes now in controversie were waved? Doth not the Apo­logie deeply professe that multitudes of Churches in England were true Churches; and yet for honour of you, cals the Chur­ches of Scotland more reformed? But you object, that this is to sym­bolize with the Papist, who call themselves the Catholick Church: we take your objection to be our full answer. As sure as the Papists do not intend to disgrace themselves in calling themselves Ca­tholicks; so sure is it beleeved that the Apologists who are Calvi­nians in Doctrine at least (if not more) did not intend to disgrace themselves and the brethren (holding the same doctrine and truth) with the terme Clavinian. Yet, as if in revenge,Apol. p. 5. you ding the words Separation, and Brownists against the Apologists, who had so clearly renounced that rigid opinion and way in their Apologie. As if you had forgotten, or did intend to mis-apply what you had said but the next line afore quoted out of Hierom. viz. If any where we find men professing Christianity, called by the parti­cular names of men, know them to be the synagogue of Antichrist, and not the Church of Christ. Oh unhappie conjunction; oh heavy appli­cation, oh coal-black termes; Quod ego — Sed motos pr [...]stat componere fluctus. Were it not for patience, nay that would hardly do it; were it not for reverence of you and your Nation; an home answer would be shaped, to such a mis-shapen misprision. But to love is to live. The Kingdom is on fire, we need not hold coals to one another. Peace be upon the sons of peace; But let not that imputation fall upon us, to set our houses on fire to rost our own egges.

Reformat. pag. 10. Nothing was farrer from their thoughts and in­tentions then to frame in their own forge a lesbian rule answerable to any [Page 8] particular form of civill policy, or compliable with State ends.

Apolog. Whether these words in the Apologie, pag. 3. (for you tread upon the heels of the Apologie step after step) We had no new Common-wealths to reare, to frame Church government unto, do pro­voke to any such answer, let all indifferent men judge. For who doth not know that you had no new Common-wealths to reare? This might farre easier been understood of New England, and yet without surmise of any blame laid upon them, who had the Kings Patent for what they did in policy, as Gods Word for Church government, which they have followed close with a great deal of judgement.

Reformat. pag. 11. Nor do we know any reason why education in sound doctrine, and true worship should be accounted a matter of thankes­giving to God, and yet should glory in this, that we are not by education in­gaged in any one form of Discipline, and Church government, but left to our selves to be moulded by our own private thoughts.

Apolog. There is no such doxologie in the Apologie, as to thank God for their disengagednesse from, or non education in true reformed Churches. They expresse their sorrow, that the defilement of the Churches of England, caused their exilement out of the Churches of England. Their naked words are onely these.Apol. p. 4. We were not engaged by education, or otherwise, to any other of the reformed Churches. And for your intimated charge of being left to themselves to be moulded by their own private thoughts, touching Church government, their own words do most transparently clear them. We were not engaged (say they) by education, Apol. p. 4. &c. to other of the reform­ed Churches; yet we consulted with reverence what they hold forth both in writings and practise. We had the advantage of all that light which the conflicts of our Divines (the good old No conformists) had struck forth in their times; and the draughts of Discipline, which they had drawn. We had likewise the fatall miscarriages and shipwracks of the Separation (whom ye call Brownists) as land-marks to forewarne us of those rocks and shelves they ran upon, and to enquire into the principles that might be the causes of their divisions. Last of all, we had the recent and later examples of the wayes, and practises (and those improved to a better edition and greater refinement, &c.) of those multitudes of godly men of our own Na­tion, almost to the number of another Nation, and among them some as holy and judicious Divines as this Kingdom hath bred. All which we looked upon nakedly according to the Word of God. Thus the Apologie. Out [Page 9] of which words the venemous spider of envy cannot (much lesse you brethren that are men of a better spirit) extract and draw justly this conclusion, That the Apologists intended to mould a govern­ment in and by their own private thoughts. They were not so left to themselves by the oppositions of the times, but that they carried with them the golden measuring reed of the Word of God; and did with all the judgement and divine assistance they had, mea­sure and square every inch as they built. Nor doth it yet appear to some that wishly look after these things, in what materiall things their buildings differ from others, unlesse about the gene­rall and common roofe, whether it shall be the monstrous Arches of Episcopacy, or the cemented vault of a classicall Presbytery, or of Jerusalem work of an Apostolicall Councell. And this maine questi­on is now among them, Quos penes arbitrium est, & vis, & norma lo­quendi.

Reformat. pag. 11. The Churches planted by the Apostles, if not at first, yet afterwards were of greater number in one City, then did, or could ordinarily assemble in one place for the worship of God, and therefore had a plurality of Pastors, and Officers, which made a common Presbytery for go­verning the whole.

Apologet. These words makes a speech of a Judge at an Assizes touching Lent-fastings to come to mind. Who said, that he could prove that Lent-fastings were of Apostolicall institution for the last six hundred yeers. Whereupon one standing by said to another of his friends, That all the craft and cunning lay in this, for the Judge to prove it to be Apostolicall for the first s [...]x hundred yeers, or the first hundred or first fourty yeers. But to return to the Apologie; whose words are milde, and soft, but as wooll-packs deadning Cannon shot, that the bullets can do no hurt, can make no battery.Apol. p. 13. We could not (saith the Apologie) but imagine that the first Churches planted by the Apostles, were ordinarily, of no more in one City at first, then might make up one entire congregation, ruled by their own Elders, Observe that the same argu­ment that is urged to prove a Presbytery, was formerly urged by the Bishops to prove an Epis­copacy. that also preached to them: For that in every City where they came, the number of converts did, or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundrie Congre­gations, or that the Apostles should stay the setting up of any Churches at all, untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication as might make such a Presbyteriall combination, we did not imagine. We found also the Non-co [...]formists in their answer to the arguments used for Episcopall govern­ment over many Churches, brought from the instances of the multitudes of [Page 10] beleevers at Jerusalem, and other places and Cities mentioned in the New Testament, to assert, that it could not be infallibly proved that any of those we read of in the Acts, or elsewhere, were yet so numerous, as necessarily to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation in those first times. So the Apologie. The word afterwards hath a large extent, and there­fore doth not punctually tell us whether you mean after the Apo­stles times or when, and therefore doth nothing weaken the Apo­logie, and so you and we must leave it as we found it unblemish­ed in this, as the rest; which is the onely designe in this paper, leaving it to disputation to be discussed out.

Reformat. pag. 13. To avouch when we are not challenged, that we ascribe more to the Magistrate then the reformed Churches do, they being faithfull to their own principles of Ecclesiasticall government, may suffer a harder construction then we our selves would willingly undergo, or put upon the intentions of men, who seek not their own things, but the things of Je­sus Christ.

Apolog. Let the world judge whether the Apologizers and those of their judgements were not challenged, when the Peaceable Plea cals them, not onely in the book, but in the title of the book in the face of the world, Independents. Which the Apologie could not but upon just grounds, count as a proud and insolent title (for any to assume) and as a trumpet of defiance against what ever power, Apol. p. 23. Spirituall or Civill; from them that should be conceived to own it; and ther­fore do in expresse words there abhor it, and detest it: that Chur­ches, and Magistrates should not loose the true face of their judgement in such a swelling title.Reform. p. 23. Consule Be­zam de Hae­reticis a civili Magistr puniendis. For if upon a grosse errour of an another Church they dare exercise onely a non communion with it, which after you call no authoritie; then there is more left for the Magistrate to do, then when you have excommunicated it, which you call there, your power. So likewise when a classicall Presbyterie, of many Ministers and lay-men, and those of great place and power in the Common-wealth, shall authoritatively rule all matters of sixtie or an hundred Parishes that are but mixtly Ecclesiasticall but partly secular or civill, if some of them not so altogether, one would think now that here were left lesse to the Magistrate, then when every one of those severall Parishes regularly gathered into a Church way do meddle with no­thing, as Churches, but things purely Ecclesiasticall; leaving the rest to the Magistrate who is the civill power over them all. We [Page 11] give for the present some small instance to take off the prejudices of us that may be instilled into the minds of civill power by the abhorred name of Independancy; and not to bring any or their way into an odium with any; as we hope they in their books that have so oft up the names of Separation, Brownisme, Independancy, Popular Anarchie, &c. do not intend to render us odious. For till Church government be clearly discussed according to the Scrip­tures, the scale is even which side (to use your own words) doth most imitate the Pagans and Infidels of old, the Papists, Prelates, Reform. p. 13. and Ar­minians of late to make the way of Christ hatefull to Princes and Magi­strates. And till it doth appear whose principles are closest to the rule of the Word, all will say (in your phrase) that they give fully as much as any, to the Magistrate as God in his Word giveth them; and so cannot be more or lesse. And for our own parts, to wash our own hearts from sinister intentions, we wish a curse upon those de­signes, that shall flatter men to facilitate a forming, and winding in of a Discipline that shall not be the closest to the Scriptures.

Reformat. pag. 17. No sooner is the Prelaticall party by the power and blessing of God begun to be subdued in this Island, but ariseth unexpect­edly the opposition on the other hand, waiting the opportunity, stronger then it was before, which moved some of our Divines of late to write on this hand in defence of the government of the reformed Churches, as others had done before them in other Churches. In France Beza against Morelius Sadeel. Two Nationall Synods also of the reformed Churches in France, the one at Orleans, 1561. Another at Rochel, 1571.

Apolog. It should seem by your own quotations here that long before your No sooner, &c. not staying to wait this opportunitie, lear­ned and godly men have written, neer an hundred yeers since against Classicall Presbyteries, and for Congregationall Chur­ches. Besides those many worthy famous men which you quote with honour in your Peaceable Plea. As for Mr. Beza against Morelius Sadeel, his Tract is not at hand, and therefore we can­not now speak to it particularly, But this you know, that an ho­nest Aerius a Presbyter is condemned by a pious and learned Epi­phanius as guiltie of heresie, for saying that a Bishop did not differ from a Presbyter, but that a Presbyter was as high in dignity and order as the Bishop Quid est E­piscopus ad Presbyterum? Nihil hic dif­fert ab illo, unus enim est ordo, & unus (inquit) ho­nor, & una dignitas. Im­ponit manus Episcopus? ita etiam Presby­ter, &c. Epip. contra haeres. li. 3. To. 1. ca. 75.. That to celebrate the Passeover was Jewish. That the prayers of the l [...]ving did not profit the dead. That their ordained set Fasts Quarta & pro Sabbato were not to be observed. Yet the same Epiphanius (who [Page 12] flourished about the yeer 365. after Christ, so long since) confes­seth, that Aerius was not alone in this opinion, but multitudes more, keep­ing together (in form of a particular Church) with the said Aerius, Magnam multitudi­nem virorum ac mulierum allexit. Fugabatur autem ipse cum suis ab Ecclesiis, & agris, ac vicis, ac civitati­bus. Saepe vero cum multa sua tur­ba vigilantes ac sobrii in agris dege­bant. their Teacher, all of them living very soberly. For the two Synods you men­tion, for want of copies of them (nor do we in this businesse de­sire much to turn over books, but take what is ready at hand, un­lesse hereafter we shall be forced thereunto) we shall speak but a word in generall; that as one of the best of our English Articles tell us, Councels have and may erre, therefore Synods. If Paphnutius were alive, he could tell us by experience. Christs enlightning and leading presence is much according to the orderly gathering and managing of Synods. And for the Protestant Churches in France; If we may beleeve our eares hearing the reports of some of the Ministers of the French Churches here in England (consi­derable too as the Dutch) or our eyes in reading the Ecclesiasti­call Discipline of the reformed Churches in France, many mate­riall particulars, and passages are for us; which we omit here, as not intending a dispute or largenesse in any thing. So that if things be weighed we are not so alone, or heterogeneall, as that we deserve the opinion that we should not be for the Reformed Churches so far forth as they be reformed, at least as much as the Presbyterians.

To those intimations of Reform. pag. 19. that the Apologizers exile was voluntary; they carried away Churches with them, and left the other Churches, that stayed behind, exposed to the enemie; The Apol. hath no more to say at this time, but this. That their exile at most was but as voluntary, as the SeamensVoluntate mixta semi­plena, with an unwil­ling will. casting their lading into the Sea, to save themselves from drowning. They took no more then Christ gave them: when they persecute you in one place, fly into another, as Christ and his parents did. And they did no more ex­pose the Church to the enemie, then as in all ages other godly Colonies of Saints have done in departing to Francfort, Holland, and New England, lest they themselves also had been swallowed up too, and the other Churches never an iota relieved by it; but kept themselves for a reserve, to assist the Church at their return. Hoping that if they were blamed for their voluntary departing, they shall not for their voluntary return; to unexpose the Church to the least claw, or shadow of Prelacy.

Reformat. p. 21. To limit the censure of excommunication, in matter [Page 13] of opinion to the common and uncontroverted principles,The true copy of the Apology is thus. Excom­munication we iudge should be put in exe­cution for no other kind of sins, th [...]n may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the pa [...]ties known light, as whe­ther it be a sin in manners & conversation, such as is com­mitted against the light of na­ture, or the common recei­ved practises of Christianity professed in the Church of Christ. Or if in opinion, then such as are likewise con­trary to [...]he re­ceived prin­ciples of Chri­stianity, & the power of god­lines professed by the party himself, & uni­versally ac­knowledged in all th [...] rest of the Chur­ches, and no oth [...]r sins to be the subiect of that dreadfull s [...]ntence. and in the matter of manners to the common and universall practises of Christianitie, and in both to the parties known light, is the dangerous d [...]ctrine of the Arminians, and Socinians, openeth a wide doore, and proclaimeth liberty to all other practises and errours which are not fun­damentall, and universally abhorred by all Christians, and tendeth to the overthrow of the Reformed Religion, which we wish all sound and sober spirits to abstain from, lest it render them and their profession suspected of some such opinions and practises, as in charitie we judge to be far from their minds and wayes.

Apolog. If Pagans and Infidels do not practise, and Papists, Pre­lates, Socinians, Arminians, Brownists, Separatists, &c. do not hold some common truths with Christians (as sence is common to men and beasts) we cannot but condoll our condition, that when we assert (against mis-opinion of us) that we give to Magistrates as much as the Presbyterians do, we are compared to Pagans, In­fidels, Prelates, &c. as bringing the way of Christ into hate with Princes: when we speak for a conforming of Church govern­ment to the closest agreement with the Scriptures, we are compa­red to Brownists, Separatists, Independents, and Popular Anarchie. When we judge that excommunication should not be but of per­sons presumed to sin against their own light, &c. we are compa­red to Socinians and Arminians, if not semi-suspected to be such, though not by any English heart. If these be right forms of con­futation, the common people will begin to pride up themselves as to have said somewhat to the Question now in controversie, whiles they assert (instead of better arguments) that a Bishop is a Presbytery contracted; and a Presbytery is a Bishop d [...]ffused. The former is as a president; the other as a Commission exercised by many. Doth not this very particular of excommunication testifie for us that the Congregational way doth leave more to the Magistrate, then the Presbyterie do? Many offences are to be punished bodily, by the Civill Magistrate, that are not to be censured with that spirituall highest censure of Excommunication. Which being a shutting out of heaven, and a giving up to Satan, had need of better grounds then mens sinning of simplicitie, or ignorance. The very Prelates, at least pretended wilfull obstinacy for their Excommu­nications. And the great punishment of Excommunication in­flicted for small faults, will make the punishment at last small in [Page 14] the eyes of men. But if it be restrained to great faults against the parties light, men will think the punishment to be like the sin. And yet no do are set open to other vices; which Civil power may punish externally for the fact; whiles Churches look upon faults spiritually in relation to the mind, with what will they were committed.

Reformat. pag. 23. Two maine objections are made against the prin­ciples and practise of the order and government of the Reformed Churches. One is that there is no need of authoritative power of Presbyteries, and Sy­nods, and that the exhortation of particular Churches one to another, the Protestation of one against another, and the withdrawing of communion one from another, may be a sufficient remedie, and no lesse effectuall against all offences then Excommunication it self; especially if the Magistrate shall vouchsafe his assistance, and interpose his authoritie, for strengthning the sentence of Non communion.

Apolog. There is not one word in the Apologies discourse of this point to extenuate the power of Synods; which being accor­ding to the Scriptures, they hold them in the highest esteeme that ever the Scripture advanced them to. And on the other side, they there give us an expresse, that besides the said exhortations, protestations, and Non communion, that they professe them­selves ever to submit, and also to be most willing to have recourse to the civill Magistrate interposing a power of another nature, upon his particular cognizance, and examination of such causes.

Reformat. pag. 21. 22. To the said objection we answer, 1 (for there are 5 answers by way of direct confutation) that this objection supposeth a case, which hath not been found in the Church of Scotland for the space of eightie yeers, and beleeve was never heard of in any of the Re­formed Churches, except those of the Separation: the pronouncing of Non communion or Excommunication against a whole Church. Our Excommu­nication hath been executed but seldome against particular members, never against a whole Church, and we think never shall be; and therefore this imaginarie fear of that which never falleth out, is not considerable, rules are made for ordinarie, and usuall cases.

Apolog. Who that have seriously read and weighed the Apo­logie, and therein their disclaiming of the Separation properly so called, their owning the Churches of Scotland and many in England for true Churches, their just account of their practise in Holland, and their proceedings towards the Church mistaking, [Page 15] would after all this call the Apologizers Churches, Churches of the Separation; unlesse withall they exprest they meant Separation from the Prelates wayes, as Scotland and England now do. But what ever true Churches be named, we see no reason (though others beleeve quod factum non est, nec fieri potest; that which never hath been, never shall be) but that they may be incident and li­able to fall into that case of having to do with a whole parti­cular Church erring; especially till those swarmes of Anabaptists, Antinomians, &c. which have been so oft intimated and sounded in our eares, be allayd. You (brethren your selves) suppose more, and therefore you may suppose the lesse. For in your second an­swer to this objection (as you call it) you suppose that two, or more Churches may mutually protest and pronounce the sentence of non com­munion one against another. In which case, say you, pronouncing of non communion would prove rather a meane of division, then of union, and there would be no remedy (where the censure is mutuall) to compose this difference, unlesse there be a common Presbytery, or Synod made up of the whole. To which we answer, that this case hath befallen Provin­ces, and National prelaticall Churches, in matter of Excommu­nication too, each of them having a severall Pope in them have excommunicated one another. And we see not that antidote in one of the wayes you mention, namely, a Classicall Provinciall Pres­bytery, but that one provinciall Presbytery may protest against and excommunicate the other. For the other way (for you pro­pound two, and we are willing to take the best) namely, a Na­tionall Synod, gathered and guided according to the Scriptures, we willingly embrace. And they that will not take the judge­ment of such a Synod, having no Scripture to alledge justly, against their resolutions, let them fall into the hands of the Ma­gistrate, the Preserver of the publick peace. This same reply serves to your third and fourth answer. We need adde but a word in reply to your fifth answer, wherein you demand by what proba­bility it can be made to appear to any rationall man, and indifferent mind, that no authoritie shall be as valid as authoritie against the obstinate, that Via admonitionis & requisitionis is equall with Via citationis, & publicae authoritatis? To which we answer, that if it be stated that that is authoritie, which is Scripture authoritie (and not else) and that to be most valid that convinceth and conquers actus eli­citos, the mind, rather then that which doth onely manacle and [Page 16] constraine, actus imperatos, the outward carriage; the demand is soon answered. Is the way of admonition, protestation, and non com­munion, no authoritie? Is that no authoritie that tels us we must give no offence, Better a milstone were hanged about ones neck, and he cast into the Sea, then to offend a weaker brother. That we were better not eat flesh then to offend, &c. Or is it no authoritie, when a whole Church after fasting and prayer, and clear disputation, shall tell the ob­stinate erring, that upon those grounds they will withdraw from them as from Heathens and Publicans? The truth is, that the pre­laticall men have made much use of this your case alledged to plead for Bishops, as most necessarie to keep Churches in union. But Gods authoritie held forth to us in the judgements of Na­tionall Synods according to the Word, will prove more effectu­all then any humane instituted way whatsoever, to unite Churches.

Reformat. pag. 24. The other objection is; that by this authoritie and order of government, one Church hath power over another: which is contra­rie to that libertie and equalitie Christ hath endewed his Churches with, and is no other but a new prelaticall dominion set over the Churches of Christ. To this (say you) we answer. 1 That we are far from imposing any such collaterall power. The power which we maintain is aggregative of the Officers of many Congregations over the particular members; in which (as in the naturall and politick body) one member is not subject to another, but is to the whole. 2 It is (say you) a miserable mistake to compare Pres­byteries and Prelates together. For the Courts of Prelates are altogether forrain and extrinsecall to the Congregations, over which they rule. But the power of Presbyteries is intrinsecall and naturall, they being constitute of the Pastors and Elders of the particular Congregations ever which they are set. So that another without themselves doth not bear rule over them, but all of them by common consent do rule over every one; which is no more then for a member of a particular Congregation, to be ruled by his own particular Eldership. For they discern no sentence of excommunication of any mem­ber without the knowledge, and consent of the particular Congregation that is particularly concerned therein.

Apolog. You say you impose not a collaterall power. Sure your laws do impose that one congregation shall be subject to the Elders (suppose) of twenty congregations. And the authority of 19 of them is as collaterall. The congregations every one chose their own officers to rule over themselves in the Lord. But we heare [Page 17] not you say that they chose their Officers to rule over themselves and others; though we hear you say that the Officers themselves are readie enough to consent so to rule: which is as extrinsecall as Episcopacie, if Episcopacie be as intrinsecall as Presbyterie. For are not Bishops chosen by the people at their instalment; where customarily people are allowed to make any just excepti­on; and hath in part been practised in England, though with little successe in their domineering times? Just as anciently, (as Hieronimus tels us) Vnus eligebatur qui caeteris preponoretur, &c. To avoid schisme, one of the classicall Presbytery was chosen to be as Chair-man over them all in their Consistorie, who from being so annually, at last became so for his life time, and so hence was born Episco­pacy. Besides we know that the Bishop and his Chaplains, Chancellour, Archdeacon, Register, &c. were parishioners with­in their own Diocesse; if not Elders or Officers in their severall congregations. And people formerly have been as willing they should reigne, as ever any people were in your Kingdom to have the Presbyterie over them. And the Bishops on the other side did as cunningly comply with the Congregations; they grounding their Court proceedings upon the Church-wardens or Parish Elders presentments upon the peoples complaints and testimony, and did not passe an Excommunication without the subscription of the hand of a Minister or two of that Archdeaconrie, or Coun­tie-Presbyterie; and last of all, the Excommunication was not pronounced without the consent of the Minister of the particular Congregation. So that it is clear, it is not peoples consent onely, but if according to the Word, that makes a government lawfull. God hath chalked out to us patterns of people chusing Officers for the congregation. And congregations chusing men for Sy­nods or Councels, but not (as we conceive) of chusing men to make a middle classicall Presbyterie. What ever plausible shews of reason may seem to commend a way, yet onely Gods way shall have the blessing of God upon it. And if it cannot be resolved on all hands as yet, clearly which is it, let that your golden speech be written upon all your actions.☜ That those that are most averse to Presbytery if they allow no materiall difference in doctrine, worship, Reform. p. 26. or pra­ctise, might injoy their peace, and all comforts of their Ministery, and pro­fession under it, without controlment of that authoritative power which [Page 18] they so much apprehend. We have been of late made to fear the con­trary, by the reports of some (not of meanest rank) of your own Nation, but now we desire rather to hope upon your words here given under your own hands, then fear by reason of theirs. Trust­ing also that as you were kindly invited to our Assembly, so you will be as helpfull to our poore Churches as your Armies by Gods blessing are like to be the Common-wealth; according as both Na­tions have vowed to indeavour the reformation of Religion in the King­doms of England and Ireland in Doctrine, Worship, Discipline, and Go­vernment, according to the Word of God.

Reform. p. 26. We crave leave to conclude with your own words, hoping we may as con­fidently speak them as you did; namely, That so much for the present have we said, not for confutation, but meerly for justifying our own and other reformed Churches against such mis-represent­ings and mistakings, as in matters of Religion are too frequent in this place, at this time, &c.