YOnder commeth my good friend and neighbour Arizelus with his wife and familie: they haue bin at some sermon this morning, for being the sabaoth of the Lord, hee would not for his pietie and zeale be otherwise occupied. Though it be the manner of o­uer manie that know not the things that belong to their peace: rather to spend the Sabaoth in vaine, vnprofita­bly and some also; lewde and sinfull practizes: than to frequent the places where God is worshipped: and thē­selues might be edified vnto saluation. But because hee absenteth himselfe from his owne Pastor, and followeth a strange ministrie, I will assay, if I may reforme him in this point: wherein in mine opinion, verie manie, partlie of ignorance, & partlie of an excesse of zeale, doo greatlie and gréeuouslie offend. I will therefore expect his approching, that I may salute him, and enter some conference with him: for hee is not of that sort that will harken to no perswasion, but wilfullie follow their own fantasies. God giue you good morrow neighbour Ari­zelus.

And you also good Master Sophronius.

As I saw you comming towardes me, I meruailed somewhat at your hast: and haue staied for you, to knowe the cause thereof: as also of that cheare­fulnesse which is in you, more than ordinarie.

I haue been at the Sermon of Master Eulalus, who of late began to preach beyond the Riuer, a god­lie, learned, and zelous man as I haue knowen.

I know him wel, and I am glad that that place which was wont to be destitute of all teaching, is nowe so well and fruitefullie furnished.

He had occasion this morning to be somwhat lon­ger than ordinarily hee vseth to be: and this is the cause of my hast, that when we haue dined, wee may returne in good time to the afternoone exercise: for my chere­fulnesse, which you say is more than ordinarie, I must needs confesse it is from the blessing of God vpon mee by his ministrie this day, in the excellent things he deli­uered vnto the auditorie.

I coniectured so much of my selfe, before you spake, for the good opinion I iustly haue cōceaued of you, but it dooth mee more good to haue heard it from your owne mouth.

I thank you sir most hartely, and much more than if you had reioyced with me, for some great gaine in outward things. For as my benefit herein is much greater; so is your reioycing in my behalfe, a more sure testimonie of your godly and christian loue towards me.

You take it well, and as you should: for if it be a gratefull and acceptable thing to worldly men, that their worldly friends should reioyce with them in their worldly prosperitie, it is much more dutifull in the chil­dren of God to reioyce one with another in their spiritu­all profitings. But there is some thing concerning this matter, whereof I would gladly conferre with you: but I will not hinder you in this hast.

I will stay withyou a while if you please, or if you will goe with me to the sermon after dinner, I may by the way vnderstand your minde.

The matter requireth some longer time, and [Page] for my going with you I would not refuse, were it not that at the same howre our owne Pastor Master Timo­theus will according to his custome bee occupied in the Catechisme, with whose sermon in the forenoone I was so well satisfied for mine instruction and edifying, as I meane not to leaue him in the afternoone for any other.

O sir if you had heard this other man, you would haue said there had beene a great difference. And for my parte I desire to heare those by whome I am most edified.

That is the speciall point whereof I would willingly conferre with you: for I haue now along time obserued your absence from our assembly. But because this is no time to enter into so long a discourse, you shall now departe vnto your owne house, and when the after­noone sermon is done, which I gesse will be about three of the clock: if it please you to méete with me at my gar­den which lieth in your way, I will attend you there. And further I most hartely pray you and your good wife, to take parte of my poore supper. Your cheare shall be meane, but your welcome I assure you shall be of the best.

I thanke you sir with all my heart, more for the conference you haue promised, than for the rest: though I must needes take in good part your so louing and gentle inuitation. I will therefore for this time take my leaue, and meete you at the houre and place appoin­ted, by Gods grace.

Who is at the gate?

A friend: I pray you open the doore. Is your Master come as yet?

He is come euen a little before you, and com­manded me to attend your comming to let you in.

Tell me I pray you, where is your Master that we may goe vnto him?

He is walking with my Mistris in the fur­ther [Page] side of the garden. I will shut the doore and bring you thether.

Doo so my good youth.

This is well that you are come so timely, and more than I looked for, considering Master Eulalus was so long in the forenoone.

His paines were so great then, that he was con­strained now somewhat to fauour himselfe: albeit I promise you, hee made a most excellent sermon.

I doubt nothing thereof; and it both séemed, and was the more excellent vnto you, because you heard him with reuerence and attention, for want whereof, many loose the fruit of the greatest graces of God. But you and my good neighbour are both most hartely well­come to this place: and I thanke you for this paines.

Sir it is your great curtesie to ascribe that vnto vs which is your owne. But since it pleaseth you so, I wil not contend with you; the rather that the time may suffice to your promised conference with me.

You say well, and I accord thereunto, as to the principall cause of our méeting at this time. There­fore we will craue pardon of our wiues that they would solace themselues as pleaseth them for a while, and after they may bee partakers of that wee shall conclude. You and I will sit or walke in this long arbour vntill supper time: for you Gentlewomen, giue vs leaue a little with your fauour to that we haue in hand. Neighbour Arize­lus, I ioyed not a little in the forenoone to sée you so chearefully returne from hearing of the word of God: which was vnto mean vndoubted testimony of the great loue and [...]auour of God towards you. But there is one thing whereat I do not a little meruaile, that you should so greatly reioyce in the gifts of a stranger, & take so lit­tle comfort and delight in his ministerie whom the Lord especially hath addicted vnto you.

I tolde you sir in the morning, that in my [Page] iudgment there is no comparison betweene the men. And of this I am sure, that haning seldome or neuer heard our owne pastor with anie fruite, I haue receiued great profite and comfort by this man.

The question is not whose gifts are more ex­cellent, but by whose hand the Lord himselfe doth offer vs mercie in the gospell of his sonne Iesus Christ. Whereupon also dependeth the promise of certeine and sound edifieng.

Are you then mind that wee may heare none but our owne Pastors?

Not so, for the Apostle saith, we may prooue1. Thess. 5. 21. all spirits: and for mine owne part (as you well know) I heere also manie others. But this is my meaning, that in the times of our owne assemblies, I would not willinglie be absent from thence: where my presence is especiallie required.

What if our Pastors were vnapt to teach?

I am then of mind, as in the case of the poore and nedie of this world, that wanting foode at home, they may lawfullie aske and take releefe abroad where­soeuer the Lord shall offer them mercie. But I hope you will thinke it a great shame for rich men, and such as are competentlie prouided for, to beg their bread.

I think so, but this case differeth far from ours.

Not so much perhaps as semeth to you at this first sight.

Why so?

Is not the same God the father of our spirits, who hath giuen vs these bodies, and the life whereby they liue.

No doubt?

Is it not the same God vpon whome we de­pend, as wel for the féeding of our soules, as for the nou­rishment of our bodies?

I graunt, for as in this outward life, man liueth [Page] not by bread onely: but by euerie word that proceedethDeut 8. 2. out of the mouth of God, so in our spirituall estate, I know and acknowledge it to be true, that the Apostle1. Cor. chap. 3. 6. saith Paul planteth, and Apollo watereth, but it is God a­lone that giueth the encrease.

You say well: How shall we then refuse the prouidence of God in féeding of our soules: when wee submit our selues thereunto, in the nourishment of our bodies.

This is obscure, I pray you speake it more plainelie for my vnderstanding.

I meruaile you should not vnderstand this, but I will endeuour to expresse my mind more fullie and plainelie if I can. God, who as you haue alreadie gran­ted, is the Author of this bodie & this life: is he also that distributeth the good thinges belonging to the reliefe and comfort of life, according to his own good pleasure: and hath commaunded euery man to eat his own bread, and drinke the water of his owne Cesterne: contentingPro. cha. 5. 15. himselfe with his owne estate appoynted of the Lorde, not enuying or affecting that which in more abundance is granted vnto an other.

It seemeth reasonable that you saie: for no man may bee his owne caruer in these outward things, but thankefullie and patientlie content himselfe with his owne mediocritie, and not break the bounds which the Lord himselfe hath set, and not man.

So it is, and that men the better be contained within this compasse of the prouidence of almightie God: we see how mercifully the Lord dealeth with those of the lower and poorer sort: that hauing little and al­most nothing in comparison of others, and being char­ged with children and familie farre beyond them: they are yet both themselues and theirs as healthfull and strong in bodie, and euerie way as well graced in their outward persons, (and more also many times) as they [...] [Page 15] which all confesse, as manie as knowe anie thing.

If the Pastor must féed his owne flocke, and that because the Lord hath appointed vnto him to break vnto them the bread of life: tell mee (I pray you) how are not the people likewise bound to submit themselues vnto his ministerie: and to receiue their foode at his hand, whom God hath commaunded to féede them? And how do they not withdrawe themselues from the hand of the Lord, that withdrawe themselues from the hand of their ministers? and consequentlie depriue themselues of that lawfull and iust meanes which God hath giuen them for their saluation?

Your conclusion is verie peremptorie, and ra­ther forceth my iudgement, than leadeth mine affectiō.

I think so; and I am perswaded that many of your minde, do rather offend of an excesse of zeale, then of any ground of knowledge. But you should rememberRom. 10. 2. that zeale without knowledge maketh vs many times not to obey God. Who yet ought to bee the subiect and end of all our zeale.

So saith S. Paul of the Iewes: but how doth that belong vnto this cause?

I will tell you in a word. And I trust you will heare it patiently and take it in good part; whilst in an ignorant zeale you runne after strangers, presuming without ground or warrant of the word, to be more edifi­ed by their Ministerie, than by the Ministerie of your owne Pastor, you preferre your owne fantasie before the ordinance and commandement of God.

How so? I doo not yet see so much.

It happeneth vnto many that their own pre­sumptions doo so blind them, that they cannot sée the things which are most plaine and palpable.

You deale hardly with me, but say on.

I prayed you of patience before: but I will craue no fauour vnlesse I prooue that which I affirme: [Page 16] it is the first step vnto health to know our disease. Tel me I pray you, is not the Pastor cōmanded to féed his flock, & that of God; w^t promise of a blessing vpon his labours.

No doubt.

Tell me also in the presence of God, without all respect of men (for I am here more afraide of your af­fection, than of your iudgement) is not the people like­wise commanded and that of God himselfe, to take the bread of life at the hand of their Pastor; with promise of blessing by his ministerie vnto saluation?

I did not thinke the people so bound vnto their Pastor, as the Pastor is bound vnto his people. I desire to be further satisfied in this point.

To whom God cōmandeth any man to speak, do you not think them bound to heare him that speaketh?

Yes, but GOD speaketh by all into whose2. Cor. 5. 19, 20. mouthes he hath put the word of reconciliation.

I graunt, but doth he speak by euery pastor vn­to all churches, or to euery church by her owne Pastor?

To euery church principally by her own Pastor.

I am glad you confesse so much, though you might haue gon further without danger. I infer thē vp­on your grant, that if God offer to teach euery assemblie principally as you say by their owne minister, then euery people must principally séeke to be taught by their owne Minister and not by others.

I see not how I may auoid the necessitie of this conclusion.

It can by no meanes be auoided without mani­fest controlling both of the wisdome & goodnes of God.

How so?

God is not onely the author of the Ministery, but also the addresser and disposer of the seueral labors of his seruants. And therfore what iniurie is done vnto the ordinance of God▪ by the Minister that refuseth to teach those vnto whom he is particularly sent: the same iniurie [Page 17] is done vnto his prouidence, by those of the people that refuse to be taught by him whom the Lord hath expresse­ly sent vnto them, and vnto whose ministery he hath sub­iected them. And for the goodnes of God, as the cause thereof is in him onely and not in vs: so it is vtterly no reason we should our selues make choice of the meanes or of the men, by whome the same should be brought vnto vs, rather than with all thankfulnes, humilitie and re­uerence to receaue the same at the hands of those by whom it pleaseth his Maiestie to send & offer the same.

My iudgement yeeldeth to that you say; but my heart and affection dooth yet striue against it. I pray you therefore with patience suffer mee yet further to obiect vnto you the causes, why I cannot so fully and wholy agree vnto you.

The iudgements of men if they bee not maliti­tiously obstinate and wilfully striue against the trueth, may bee informed or forced by weight of argument, and necessitie of conclusion, as I perceaue in your selfe: but the hearts and affections of men cannot be wrought vp­on, nor ouer-ruled but by the only hand of God. Yet ho­ping that the Lord who hath blessed our conference for the one, will also blesse our indeuour for the other; I wil not refuse to satisfie you, as I may, in all your obiecti­ons, referring you further to those, who both for their callings and gifts are better furnished to this purpose.

I thanke you right hartely, and I am perswa­ded much more of your sufficiencie hereunto than be­fore, and trust also that hee that blessed you in the one will also blesse you in the other. And therefore I will o­pen vnto you my whole hart, requiring your faithfull counsell for my direction, and silence for my credit a­mongst the godly.

For counsell I can promise you no more than I haue receaued, wherein perswade your selfe, I will not bée wanting vnto you: for silence, I will bee [Page 18] faithfull vnto you, as it may any way concerne your credit. But I am perswaded when you shall sée the depth of this error, and the subtiltie of this delusion, you will willingly acknowledge your owne abuse in this matter, for the reformation of others, and thinke it your greatest credite both with God and with his Church, to bewray in your owne example the frawde of our com­mon aduersarie, and the power of this delusion.

I will (I promise you by Gods grace) refuse to do nothing, which may either get honor vnto God, disaduantage vnto the aduersarie, or profit vnto Gods children.

You shall do well in so doing. Let vs there­fore procéede.

I haue promised to be playne and open in all things, and I take it to be the best & safest course, for so I shall least abuse your friendship, or deceyue my selfe.

So it is, and I for my part will deale as playnely with you. I pray you therefore say on.

Our Pastor M. Timotheus I haue alwayes e­steemed and knowne to be a right honest and godly man, and one that walketh blamelesse with his people. I also acknowledge his learning and vnderstanding in holy things to be sufficient for mine instruction. Hee wanteth not also a plaine and easy kind of vtterance, neere vnto the meane and weake capacitie of the mul­titude: yet not to dissemble with you (according to my promise) I neuer delighted in his Ministerie, nor tooke my selfe any thing edified thereby.

I graunt this might easely happen vnto you, partly from your owne corruption, and partly from the fraud of y^• aduersarie. And to speake first of your delight, I meruaile not alittle that any man sauoring the things of God, & which belong vnto saluation, should heare thē without delight, considering that the Apostle crieth outRom. 10. 15. frō the words of the Prophet in the person of the faith­ful, [Page 19] O how bewtiful are the féete of those that bring vn­to vs the glad tydings of peace, the glad tydings of good things: and that it happeneth many times euenMath. 13. 20. to the reprobate themselues to receiue the word with ioy, which yet bringeth foorth in them no constant and found fruite.

So it is as you say. Yet I confesse how it hath fared with me.

You dare not say but that his doctrine hath béene alwayes sound and true, taken out of the pure fountaynes of the holy and heauenly word of God, and that his care hath béene sincerely to preache vnto vs Christ Iesus, and him crucified?

I must needes giue him that testimony.

If then the doctrine taught be the doctrine of God, and the same worthie wherein both men and An­gells should reioyce, the cause of your vnchearefulnes and not reioycing must néedes be in your selfe, and not in him.

Yet his ministery was alwayes dead and with­out spirit in mine eares.

It happened vnto you which is ordinarie in those that are distempered in their bodily health, who not only distaste, but also reiect the best and most whole­some meates that be offered vnto them.

I knowe this by mine owne experience. But is there any such distemper in the minde, as is in the bodye?

No doubt, and you may likewise learne the same by your owne experience. For what can be the cause that the most ioyfull and glad tidings of the Gos­pell should be vnsauery and lothsome vnto you, were there not some euill humor in your minde, which so op­presseth your appetite and delight in heauenly things?

I delight in them I thanke God, when I heare them of those whome I like.

It is not then the things themselues which are alwayes the same in the mouthes of all Gods faith­full ministers: but either the outward gifts and graces of the man, or your partiall (I had almost said your per­uerse) affection towards the one, and against the other.

I haue resolued to take any thing well at your hands, for that I am perswaded of your vnfained good meaning towards me.

The Lord our God who knoweth all secrets, shall be witnes vnto me héereof. But partly my griefe, and partly want of iudgement in many that are ouer­borne of their owne fantasies, causeth me for their good to speake sometime more sharply than I would. Tell me I pray you as you will answere it before the Lord, haue you heard of your newe teacher any point of doc­trine concerning faith or manners, which you haue not heard handled at one time or an other by our owne Pastor?

I can not say it to say truly that he teacheth any other or new doctrine, but that which I haue heard oftentimes before, both of our owne Pastor, and of o­thers; for I acknowledge in all of them one spirit of truth, and an vnitie in veritie. But the handling is all, wherein this man passeth all that I haue heard.

It seemeth you are of mind as they be that like no meate but of one mans dressing. Remember you notProuer. 27. 7. the saying of Salomon, That to the hungrie appetite, euen soure things are swéete, but the full stomack loa­theth the very hony combe? Is not this to receyue theIac. 2. 1. word of God with respect of persons, contrarie to the rule of the Apostle?

It is not the man but his gifts, which I admire.

Those are accidentall, and not of the sub­stance of the ministery; for God giueth vnto euery one as pleaseth him. Since then God hath not giuen one measure of gifts, and grace of vtterance vnto all, it is [Page 21] best and safest for vs to looke directly vnto the Lord, by whome they are sent: and to that which is necessarie in all, and common vnto all, soundnes of Doctrine, and wholesome exhortation.

But is it not lawfull where more gifts of God are, to commend them more?

Yes, we may prayse God for all his benefits, and according to the multitude and greatnes of them. But let vs beware of that whereof S. Paule admonisheth1. Cor. 4. 6. the Corinthians, that we be not puffed vp for one, a­gainst an other.

I remember the words very well, but I pray you make the meaning of them yet more playne vnto me.

I will tell you what I haue both heard and read of them. That it is a great offence to conceiue ouer highly euen of the most excellent seruants of God, as if1. Cor. 3. 5, 7. Paule were any thing, or Appollo any thing, but God who geueth the increase. For who was Paule, or who was Appollo, but the Ministers by whome they belée­ued? Secondly, that this ouerwening of some, wor­keth a dislike and contempt of others, who are no lesse the Ministers of Christ than they, whome they do ad­mire. Whose discredit in their ministery redoundeth vn­to him that sayd, He that contemneth you, contemnethLuk. 10. 16. me.

God be mercifull vnto mee. If this be true, then haue I greatly offended, and to confesse the truth. I haue not only misliked, but in my hart despised and disdained our owne shepheard in comparison of the o­ther; such was my most vngodly partiality, and respect of men, rather than of God.

I am right glad and humbly thanke the Lord for it, to heare you of this mind. I would the same per­swasion were receiued of all. God should haue more ho­nor in his seruants, and they more comfort in their la­bours, [Page 22] than now is geuen them of many.

I will from hencefoorth by Gods grace mo­derate this ouerweening and delight. Yet I must needs say that I haue profited more in a short time by this man, than in long time and many yeares by the other.

What if you be also deceiued in this.

You haue so forcibly ouer-ruled my delight, as I wil not refuse to be examined of you likewise in this point of my profiting.

And I am content to aduenture my labour, leauing the blessing vnto GOD. You knowe before M. Timotheus came vnto vs, we were alwayes vnder an vnteaching Ministery, and that at his comming there was not in any of vs almost any true knowledge of God, and of his Sonne Iesus Christ; for mine owne part I must néedes confesse it of my selfe.

I will also willingly ioyne with you in the same confession.

You sée I haue béene no great stragler abroad (though I haue not vnwillingly heard any) but haue constantly and continually frequented the Sermons and other exercises of our owne Pastor. Yet my profiting I thanke God hath béene such thorough his blessing, as I néede neither to feare, nor to be ashamed to confesse it; and you your selfe haue in this our conference, had some triall thereof.

I alwayes knewe you diligent, but I had not thought you could by that meanes haue attayned to so sound knowledge. Now I see and acknowledge mine owne ignorance in comparison of your measure.

I humbly and thankefully acknowledge the blessing of God vpon me in his owne ordinance: and I prayse his holy name for the faithfulnes and diligence of mine owne Pastor, of whome, as from the mouth of God, I haue learned whatsoeuer I haue learned. I will therefore be bolde to reason with you on this sort. [Page 23] Your capacitie if it be not better, is at the least equall with mine. By what meanes then came it to passe, that you should not equally profit vnder the same Ministerie?

I see your meaning; it is too cleare, and to com­mend our Minister, and to lay the whole fault vppon mine owne negligence and vntowardnes.

I durst not my selfe haue concluded so hardly against you: yet pardon me, if I had rather lay the fault where it is, then where it is not. But what if your pro­fiting haue béene more by the ministerie of your owne Shepheard, than you haue hetherto for lacke of thanck­fulnes, and due consideration of Gods mercie towards you, sufficiently considered.

Can a man profit by him whom he misliketh?

But if it be so, you will then confesse that the worke of the Lord in you hath béene more myraculous and more mercifull, in that it is done both without and against your selfe.

I will willingly confesse it, if you can prooue it vnto me.

Haue you not heard & knowne that men wal­king in the sunne, though they haue neither thought nor meant any such thing, yet haue bin coloured and swarted by the same?

I knowe it well. But what is this to your pur­pose?

Verie much: for in like manner though you haue heard our Minister negligently, and to say more, contemptuouslie also: yet hath the Lord shewed you this mercie, that you haue neuerthelesse greatly profited vnder his ministerie.

That is the thing in question, which I require to be proued.

I will proue it by your owne confession.

It were strange you should doo so, but I pray you proceed.

You confessed with me euen now, that before his comming vnto vs you were as well as I, and others meerely ignorant of God and of his trueth.

That I say againe, I cannot denie it.

It is not many yeares nor very many mo­neths since you were acquainted with this new Mini­stery.

You say true.

You confessed also, that you neuer heard him teach any new point of doctrine, or propound any new exhortation which you had not heard often and many times of your owne Pastor before. Is it not then mani­fest that the knowledge you haue, whatsoeuer it is, you had it by the Ministery of our owne pastor, and not by a­ny other?

I must needes yeeld vnto the force of your ar­gument, and therefore I wil from hence foorth confesse that his ministerie hath bin profitable vnto me, though I haue not discerned it. Yet the power of the word I felt not before I had heard this other man.

The séede is sowen by the séedes-man in his time; the growth and fruite is reserued to another sea­son, according to the saying of the Apostle: The husbandIac. 5. 7. man looketh for the first and latter raine, yet is not the la­bor of the sower vnprofitable, because y^e fruite commeth not vntil the haruest. So that your new Schoolemaster was not the beginner of this worke, but rather a wate­rer and furtherer of the same, and vpon the matter, hée hath entered vpon the labor of another, and reaped that,Ioh. 4. 37, 38. another man hath sowne, and consequently is the last and least in this worke, euen as hee that watereth is lesse than he that planteth. But take héede least that wherein you most reioyce, be not sound.

What meane you thereby?

It is an vsuall deceipt, of the aduersarie to giue vs a kind of contentment and reioycing also in that [Page 25] which is extraordinary, to nourish vs stil in the contempt of that which is ordinarie.

I know not yet what you meane.

Albeit I doubt not but GOD of his great goodnes towards you hauing begotten you by the Mi­nisterie of one, hath brought you forth by the Ministery of another; sowne the good seede of his Gospell in your heart by one, and watered the same by another: yet I knowe there are many that hauing contemned the good hand of the Lord in the Ministerie of those that are sent vnto them, doo nourish themselues in a vaine opinion of great fruite, where in déede it is very little or none at all.

How may that appeare?

First, because they grow still more and more in contempt of the ordinance of God especially directed vnto them: and now not onely not loue nor reuerence their owne Ministers, but also hate and detest them, yea conceaue and speake all euill of them without cause. Se­condly if it happen that by any meanes they be depriued or barred of that Ministerie wherein they reioyce, and triumph against their owne: they are so farre preiudica­ted in their owne conceipt, as they had rather depriue themselues of all meanes, than to returne to the vse of those, which before they contemned. Whereof it many times commeth to passe, that they are made a fit pray for the Brownists, Anabaptists, or the Familie of Loue.

It were a dangerous thing to fall so far [...]e; yet I feare me it is too trew that you say; that some haue gon from their own to others, and from them to none at all, or to such, as haue carried them into most strang and dangerous opinions. But whereof I pray you commeth this?

Of an intollerable pride of minde, in which they perswade themselues they are wiser than their tea­chers. Yea I haue with mine owne eares heard some of thē say▪ that they would not doubt if they were in y^e pul­pit, [Page 26] to make a better sermon than their owne Pastors.

Let vs leaue these, and returne againe from whence we came. Yet I haue greatly profited by master Eulalus, if not in knowledge, which you haue copelled me to confesse, yet in affection and in the vse of that which I knew before.

What hundred, that from whom you receaued the beginning and foundation in the knowledge of holy things, from him you should not receaue the procéeding and fruite of the same?

I knowe not.

Neither can I giue you any other reason ther­of, but on the one side your owne negligence & contempt which might worthely haue barred you of the whole as wel as of part, if the Lord had not shewed you great mer­cie: on the other side the vnspeakable goodnes of God, that wherein you deserued punishment, therein yet you should receaue a blessing at his hand.

So it is as you say, and now that God hath ope­ned mine eyes to see mine error, I wil by his grace amend it. But since you haue brought me home to mine owne Pastor, is it your meaning at once to barre mee of the vse of all other mens gifts?

Nothing lesse.

How then?

That you waite vpon the Lord in a continu­all and constant attendance vpon the Ministerie of your owne Pastor: and for others, that you vse them as extra­ordinarie meanes sent of God, not to hinder but to helpe and strengthen his ordinance, for that which is extraordi­narie is hurtfull, vnles it worke to the confirming and strengthening of that which is ordinarie.

How so?

I wil shew it you by a very apt and fit similitude, which sometime I heard from our owne preacher, as he cōplained of the fondnes & vanity of some, which inamo­red [Page 27] with other mens gifts, despised the ordinance of God in their lawfull and ordinarie teachers. There is (said he) nothing more to be wished in the care of this life than y^t being alwaies of sound & perfect health, we may with­out dislike, and with a sober and moderate delight, both vse and enioye the good blessings of God ordained for our nourishment. But because it manie times falleth out, partlie from our owne disorder of life, partly from some outward occasion, that we are distempered and an­noyed in the estate of our health, so as we distaste and loath all our ordinarie and wholesome nourishments: it is a second and the same no small fauour from the Lord, that we may here vse the help of Phisicke in things that are extraordinarie. Yet no man vseth Phisicke vnto that end, that he may alwaies after liue from the Apotheca­ries shop: but that correcting from thence the distemper of his bodie, he may afterwards with new and fresh ap­petite returne to his ordinarie and naturall diet.

How do you applie this similtude to our cause?

Thus: It happeneth vnto vs often times that as the Children of Israel contemned and loathed Man­na, Numb. 21. which at the first they admired and wondered at: so we receauing the word in the ordinarie Ministerie ther­of with some ioy and gladnesse in the beginning, doo af­terwards grow full and satiated therewith, euen vnto loathing and contempt, as they did. If here the Lord to cure this maladie in his children, shall raise vp anie man in his Church with extraordinarie giftes, and thereby quicken & refresh their dull and dead appetite, his mean­ing is not to holde them alwaies in this new diet, that they should taste and sauour nothing else, but this rare & vnwonted prouision: but that being by this meanes cu­red of their former disease, they shuld after returne with more and better appetite, to their ordinarie & vsual man­ner of féeding. Which thing wee see to come to passe in those that are bodelie sicke, that when they haue recoue­red [Page 28] their health they become exceeding hungrie, and find their appetite doubled and trebled in them.

Now I see the end of this comparison: that all extraordinarie helpes sent of God should minister and serue vnto that which is ordinarie; and if they doo not, wee abuse them to our hurt, and not vse them to our good: so that you tel me, the new & great delight I take in the ministerie of yonder man, wil do me harme & no good, vnles I vse it as a meanes to make me with more delight & profit to attend the labors of our own pastor

You haue hit it right. And that you may the rather be confirmed in this; I will propound vnto you a case of experience, which once I heard of a godlie and learned Preacher of the Countrey. It was so that sun­drie Churches there being furnished with able and lear­ned Ministers, and some also with men of great & excel­lent gifts: there came by occasion into the Countrey, a man of no verie great learning, but of a sweete and de­licate speach, who by his eloquence and some noueltie in the maner of teaching, so drew the people after him, as now the ordinarie teachers in al places were of manie of their people so far contemned & despised, as they would euen vpon the Saboth day trauaile 4. 6. or 10. miles to heare this stranger, & not vouchsafe to come out of their dores to heare their own pastors. This preacher not be­ing so discréet as he shuld haue béen, interteined y^e people in this folly for a time; & being afterward withdrawen frō thē, left y^e people in opinion, that now they were de­priued of al means to do them good. It pleased God that shortly after there shuld come into y^e same countrey ano­ther preacher of great learning, godlines & zeale and of singular wisedome for the right managing of his Mini­sterie to the profite of the people.

I expect the end of this mans labors.

I will tell you as briefely as I can. The people thought that GOD had sent them a notable [Page 29] supplie of their former want, and in great multitudes from all places resorted vnto his sermons. When he sawe the flocking and thronging of the people after him, and that no place was sufficient to receiue the number that followed him, considering that many of them of his owne knowledge had Pastors of their owne, both able in gifts and faithfull for their pietie to teach the trueth of God: he began to aduise by what meanes he might best remedie this euill, and in the end resolued to vse the short time of his abode in that place, to that purpose. From that time he so laboured with the people for the loue and liking of their owne Pastors, plainlie noting and prouing vnto them their former vanitie, as vnto this day the fruit of his labours is extant in those places, both in raising vp the heads of the Pastors discouraged, and in the loue and diligence of the people towards their ministerie.

A notable cure of a most dangerous disease. I would to GOD wee had some such Phisitions a­mongst vs, for I now more & more see it to be most necessarie in this generall disease of the multitude.

I also pray the same, and hope that the Lord in good time will shewe mercie vnto his people in this Ci­tie, and so much the more, for that this follie is now growne amongst vs vnto the full, & the inconuenience thereof beginneth more to appeare than euer heretofore, and many of the wiser sort of the people are greatlie grieued and offended at it. For mine owne part I con­fesse, I haue seene it often with griefe, that strangers euen of meane gifts in comparison, haue been followed with such numbers, as the place hath not been able to containe the multitude, when others whose ministerie is constant and ordinarie, were almost destitute and for­saken of their auditories.

Seeing we haue proceeded thus far in this argu­mēt, let me I pray obtain this fauor at your hāds, brief­ly to remēber vnto me the reasons for which we should [Page 30] attend our owne Pastors, and not follow the nouel­tie of strange teachers.

I will not refuse to take any paines that you may be setled in this perswasion: that when you haue reaped the fruit and comfort thereof, you may be an au­thor and counseller of the same vnto others.

I meane by Gods grace so to do, and there­fore I desire to bee throughly grounded in the rea­sons thereof.

You are perswaded I trust that there is no­thing more necessarie, nor more duetiful in the children of GOD, than that for all his goodnes towards them, they should woorship and serue him according to his word.

That I am: Especiallie seeing the Prophet Dauid findeth nothing to render vnto the Lord for all his mercies, but onely to take the cup of salua­tion,Psal. 116. 13. and to praise his holie name.

What thinke you of the place wherein weeOf the place of worship. are to worship and serue the Lord our God.

That (as the Apostle saith) men may now1. Tim. 2. 8. since the comming of Christ, in al places lift vp pure hands vnto God without wrath and doubtfulnes.

You haue fitlie alledged the words of S. Paule, But consider with me a little how farre they do extend. It cannot bee denied but the spirituall worship of God, because it is an action of the minde, oftentimes separa­ted from the action of the bodie, maie at all times and in all places bee offered vp vnto his Maiestie. Also our priuate exercises of Gods worship are not fixed or tied to any place, but wee may wheresoeuer and whensoeuer opportunitie shalbe offered and wee shalbe moued there­unto, performe this part of honor vnto him. But what thinke you of the publique and solemne worship of God in the assemblie of his Saincts? I speake not now of extraordinarie occasions of trauaile and iorney, or the [Page 31] like, but of our constant and perpetuall seruing of God in the congregation of his people.

I had rather heare your iudgement, than vse mine owne coniecture in this case. Yet I am perswaded that publique things should be done publiquely.

You then mislike those which withdraw them­selues from the assemblie, and drawe the publique exer­cises of religion into their priuate houses, when they might with small paines ioyne themselues with the rest of their brethren.

I vtterly mislike them for many causes. First, they make the publique things of the Lord priuate, con­trarie to their ordinance and institution; as the papists were wont to haue priests in their houses to sing Masse &c. vnto them at home. Secondly, they rend them­selues from the holy assemblie, whereof the holy men of God haue made so great and so high account. Thirdly,Psal. 84. they refuse to worship God, there, where especially hee requireth to be worshipped. Fourthly, they grieue the minds of the godly, & offend the weake Christian. Fi­nallie the faithfull want the fruite and comfort of their companie, and example in the seruice of God.

I am glad you are so well furnished in so good a cause, some of these arguments will serue our turne af­terwards to another purpose. But to come againe to the publique place of the worship of God, doo you thinke the same to be fixed and certaine vnto vs, as it was vnto the Iewes vnder the law, who might offer sacrifices no where els but at Ierusalem, and in the temple there?

Not so, for Mount Sion is now euerie where,Esa. 2. 3. wheresoeuer the name of God is truely called vpon by his people.

But I demand whether if the peace of the Church doo so permit, there may not and ought not to be a certaine and fixed place for the assemblie vnto the publique exercise of Religion.

You meane not to make Religion of the place as vnder the Law, contrarie to the saying of Christ to the Woman of Samaria in the fourth of Iohn, That the time was then come, that the true worshippers of God, should neither worship in Ierusalem, nor in mount Gera­zim.Iohn. 4▪ 21.

I holde no Religion of one place, but of a place. God commanded the Iewes to worship at Ieru­salem, and therefore they might not for anie cause re­mooue the worship of God from thence, vnto anie other place. We may worship God euerie where, that is, in all Countreyes, Regions, and places of the Worlde. Yet must it néedes bee, that wee worshippe him some where, and not vncertainly and indefinitely euerie where.

God vnder the Law appointed the place him selfe where his name should dwel, which might not af­terwards be altred by man as you said before▪ But now he hath assigned vs no place.

Yet the publique worship of God euen from his owne ordinance, draweth with it the necessitie of a place, the appointment whereof for the particular, bee­ing left vnto the wisedome of the Church, when it is once thereby assigned, then I say it ought to be vnto vs for the time as mount Sion: and as Mount Sion was called holie vnto the Lord and vnto his people, not for it selfe, but for the presence and beautie of God, appea­ring there vnto his Churche as the Prophet saieth: soPsal. 27. 4. are the places of our assemblies holie vnto GOD, and vnto vs, not for themselues, but because all the holy things of God are there presented and distributed vnto vs.

I vnderstand your meaning to be this, that the place it selfe beeing by nature and libertie indifferent, being once chosen to be the seate of the seruice of God, is now no more indifferent vnto vs, but wee are bound [Page 33] thereunto by the authoritie of the Church, but much more for that the name of GOD is now there, and the holie ordinances of GOD which doo testifie his presence in his Churche, doo worthelie make the place for the time and for the vse no lesse holie vn­to vs, than was the temple of Ierusalem vnto the Iewes.

You vnderstand mee well. Here I pray you remember that which I said and proued in the begin­ning, that God himself hath ordained, not onely that as­semblies should be gathered vnto his name, but also that the same should bee diuided and distinguished aptly and fitly for the méeting and edifying of his people. And therefore I am of minde for our congregations as they are now amongst vs, that some for their smalnes both in number and of maintenance should be vnited, and some againe for their greatnes and confusion of multitude should be deuided, but this onely by the way.

It is true you say, for euen in this Citie I know some Parishes so great and populous, that some tenne of the rest will not amount vnto their greatnes, but let this passe at this time.

I say then, as euerie one in the ciuile estate knoweth his owne Citie, and vnto what gouernement both he and his whole house dooth belong: so it ought to be in the Church, that euery particuler Christian should bee annexed vnto one certaine assembly, and be there en­rouled as a member of that society to liue vnder the Mi­nisterie and gouernement thereof, and not to remooue or withdrawe himselfe for any cause, vnlesse the necessitie of his estate doo require his transplanting from one as­semblie to another.

I cannot take you so hardelie, as to thinke you would become a patron of an vnlearned and vnpreach­ing ministerie.

I haue auoyded that suspition before. But if you will, wee will speake somewhat of our insufficient ministerie afterward. Now let vs followe that which we haue in hand.

I will not faile to put you in minde of this promise: for there are many difficulties about this poynt. Proceed as you thinke good.

Now that I haue euicted the necessitie of one certaine place vnto euerie assemblie for the publique woorshippe of GOD, and that euerie member of the same assemblie must seeke the Lord and serue him in the place appoynted for that purpose; it followeth by iust consequence of reason, that whom the Lord hath set ouer that assemblie for doctrine and admonition, where­in especiallie hee is honoured of vs, from him in no sort we may withdrawe our selues, vnlesse wee will refuse the Lord to bee our lawgiuer, and disdaine to learne at the mouth of him, whom his maiestie hath set ouer vs for that seruice.

The summe of your discourse hetherto is thus much, that wee must worship God where hee hath appoynted vs, and learne of him from those whom he hath commanded to teach vs.

You haue gathered it truely. And for the last, if God haue put into their mouthes the word of reconci­liation, to say vnto vs in the name of the Lord bee ye re­conciled2. Cor 5. 15. vnto God, and haue made them ambassadors for his name sake: who is he that shall ouerrule the or­dinance and counsell of God, or refuse to submit himself vnto his most holie and mercifull assignement? Our owne profite and edifying leadeth vs vnto the selfesame conclusion: for where shall wee rather hope to receiue good, than vnder that ministerie which the Lord hath set ouer vs? And from whom shall we rather hope and ex­pect the blessing of God, than from him whose labours he hath promised to blesse, and vnder whom the blessing [Page 35] is promised vnto our selues. For seeing our saluation is from God, there is no reason we should rather choose from whose hands wee would receiue it, than humblie and thankfullie accept it from him by whom it pleaseth the Lord to offer it. Call to minde in this place the say­ing of the Apostle to the Hebrewes. Be obedient vntoHeb. 13. 17. your leaders, and submit your selues vnto them.

I vnderstand the necessitie and force of this conclusion.

Yet marke the reason that followeth in the same place: for they watch for your soules, as they that shall render an accompt. Vpon these words I inferre thus much, that if they watch for our soules, wee should also waite vpon the voyce of these watchmen, whom the Lord hath charged with vs for saluation. And if they must render an accompt for our soules, must not we also render an accompt of their labours bestowed vpon vs:

I agree also vnto this.

It followeth, That they may do it with ioye, and not with mourning.

What do you obserue vpon these words?

That it is the duetie of the people of God, by their obedience vnto the Gospell of Christ in the mini­sterie of their own Pastors, to giue the seruants of God all comfort and cause of reioycing in their labours, and to beware they procure not their teares, as which the Apostle saith, shall not be profitable vnto them. Euerie man desireth the comfort of his trauailes. How much more the Minister of God, who is the Lords husband­man to till and sowe in the fielde of the Lords husban­drie,Ioh. 4. 35. that both he that planteth and he that watreth maie reioyce.

You drawe then an other argument from the comfort and incouragement of the Minister.

True. And thereunto I adde that of the Lord vnto Ezekiel, that whether they heare, or they heare not,Ezek. 2. 7. [Page 36] yet let them knowe that the word of the Lord is come vnto them: which as the Apostle saith, is euermore a sweet sauour vnto God, whether it be of life vnto life in2. Cor 2. 15, 16. those that do receiue it, or of death vnto death, in those that do reiect it.

This is an hard conclusion; but it must needs stand, because it is from God himselfe. Is there yet any more?

The Minister of God in our absence wanteth the assistance of our praiers vnto the Lord for him in his ministerie, which wee see the Apostles themselues cra­ued most earnestlie, euen when they were elswhere em­ployed.Ephe. 6. 19. Hee wanteth the countenance, comfort and in­couragement of our presence for himselfe; and the hope of the benefite of our example vnto others. For if it bee true that Salomon saith. As yron is sharpned with yron,Prouer. 27. 17. so the face of a friend sharpneth a mā; me thinketh there should be an especiall effect and grace thereof in the pre­sence of the people before their Pastor. Moreouer, the neglect of our owne ministerie offereth iust occasion of griefe vnto our godlie neighbours, whilest their con­sciences do condemne vs in that which we follow. Now you know y^t we are to labour for a good report euen from1. Thes. 4. 12. those which are without, how much more from those that are within? Then also wee cause to stagger those that bee weake, who seeing vs to neglect the ordinances of God, are nourished vnto the same contempt. Lastly, where we ought to walk profitablie towards those that are without, we do by this meanes further estrange thē frō religion, & are rather bars & impediments vnto thē, than helps and furtherances to bring them vnto God.

You haue spoken sufficientlie of the duetie we owe vnto our owne Pastors, tell me now likewise of those that are not our owne.

I haue said we may vse their ministerie in times conuenient with the cautions before mentioned. But let it also be prouided, that we doo not confirme by our [Page 37] example others that looke vpon vs, in the contempt of their owne Ministers. Besides by this meanes it com­meth to passe many times through our inconsiderate zeale, that we intercept iniuriously the bread of life, from those to whom especially it is commanded to be broken. This seemeth nothing vnto many, but in my iudgemēt it is no small offence: for if I may not couet my neigh­bours wife, &c. how can I iustifie the taking away of that which importeth him more thā all the things of this life? which is this day done of many, who in the rashnes of their zeale thrust themselues into the places of those which are the proper & natural mēbers of that assemblie. To say nothing of that iniurie which we would not suf­fer in worldly things: in that we féed our selues at other mens cost, and suffer them not to enioy the fruit of their owne expence. Thus f [...]rre haue I laboured to satisfie you in this matter.

I require no more, it is enough that you haue said to this purpose: and I hope I am furnished suffici­ently both for mine owne stay and direction, and also for the instruction of others. If I faile or doubt in anie thing, I will be bolde to trouble you.

It shall be no trouble to me to doo you good: and to performe the dutie I owe vnto you. And there­fore you shall alwaies find me readie and willing to sa­tisfie you, as the Lord shall make me able.

I humblie thanke the Lord for his mercy, and you for your kindnes towards me. You haue forced me by waight of argument to attend mine owne Pastor, I haue signified vnto you, that hetherto I haue bin barred from the fruit of his ministery, I pray you therefore de­clare vnto me how I may carry my self to receaue fruit, whence before in mine opinion I receaued none.

I haue in part confuted that opinion already, if you remember what hath passed betwéene vs, both by in­stance in your selfe, and by my poore example. But you [Page 38] propound a very necessarie thing to bee well examined: and therefore if you thinke good wee will dwell vpon it a little; for as I thinke it necessarie men should be perswa­dedHow to heare aright. to heare, and directed whom to heare; so I thinke it no lesse necessarie they bee taught how to heare, conside­ring that our Sauiour Christ after hee had expounded the parable of the sower and the séede, in the end conclu­deth with this admonition vnto all: take héede how you heare.Luk. 8. 18.

I am glad I haue offered you this occasion, for me thinketh it promiseth some good instruction.

There are some that present themselues vnto the Ministerie of the word for fashion, for companie, and for custom, whose fault is palpable and more grosse than that I néed to confute it. Others there are who thinke it enough to be present, howsoeuer they bee occupied in the meane time: some by excercise of their priuate deuo­tion.

How meane you that?

My meaning is, that the publique actions of the church must be publiquely attended of all the assem­bly, and that there is here neither time nor place vnto a­ny thing that is priuate. For the Minister is alwaies ei­ther the mouth of God to speake vnto vs from him, or the mouth of the congregation to speake vnto the Lorde for vs; or the action is common to the whole Church.

You mislike then in the assembly, that in the time of publique praier, preaching, sacraments or sing­ing of Psalmes, any one shoulde occupie themselues in priuate reading, praier or meditation, and not ioyne themselues in mind & in action with those, with whom they haue ioyned themselues in bodilie presence.

I vtterly mislike it, as a manifest contempt of the ordinance of GOD, and a diuiding of themselues with disdaine from the communion of his saincts.

But you thinke it profitable to vse our bookes [Page 39] for our better helpe to profite by the word read or preached.

So it is, onely if it binde vs neerer vnto the publique action of the Church, and carrie vs not away from the same. Otherwise it were better for the time, we occupied our eares than our eyes.

What is your opinion of those that thinke it enough to heare now and then.

I thinke of those as of treuants in schoole, that their daliance will leaue them little fruite in the ende, vnlesse it be to make them more without all excuse.

What is then your aduise?

That wee heare constantly and continually, which hath this fruite that the former hearers doo de­priue themselues of; that where the word is continual­lie preached and interpreted out of some ordinarie text, there they doo better conceiue the coherencie and knit­ting together of the word; a good helpe for the increase of sounder vnderstanding.

Is that enough?

No, there must bee also a diligent care and en­deuour to profite.

What do you require thereunto?

Preparation before wee heare: presence of mind and attention in our hearing; meditation & prac­tise after we haue heard.

How may wee be fitlie prepared to heare thePreparation. word?

First, we must cast away all preiudice and par­tialitie, which I tell you, are great lets vnto many, and make their hearing vnprofitable. Then turning our eies from m [...], we mu [...] let our selues in the presence of God, with whom especiallie we haue to do in this action: for which cause the ministerie of the word, is called the faceMala. 42. [...]. or image of God, also his mouth & oracle in the Church.

Doo you require this in a learned hearer as [Page 40] well as in the vnlearned?

No lesse in the one than in the other. For as much as all here are disciples vnto God, & not to man.

But can he that hath more learning profite by him that hath lesse?

No doubt.

How may that be?

Many waies, euen in that wherein you would least thinke, as in knowledge it selfe. For the Lord spea­king in the mouth of his minister, many times teacheth the wise by the simple, & the great learned man, by him that is farre inferiour vnto himselfe; as I haue heard diuers confesse. And we reade that Christ himselfe was often present at the sermons of Iohn: the Prophets disdained not the ministerie of the Priestes, but wereHag. 2. 11, 12. content to learne the lawe of them. The Doctors of the Church heare their Pastors. This the Lord doth both for his owne honour, and to humble the hiest men with­all: for there is no learning so great in any man, that can free him from the necessitie of hearing the word.

What more?

Faith is not only a knowledge of the doctrine of saluation, but also an applying of the same vnto our owne particuler. Now the ministerie of the Gospell as it first begetteth faith in the hearts of men, so doth it af­terwards nourish and encrease the same by the ordinance of God.

I see manifestlie the trueth of this. And I re­member S. Paule saith, that he hoped to profite byRom. 1. 12. the Romanes, as they should by him.

There is a necessarie vse of the Ministerie vn­to all, euen for remembrance, wherein how [...] wee faile all, I trust you will confesse.

I subscribe also vnto this, the rather for the experience I haue of mine owne forgetfulnes: for which cause amongst other as I take it, the Apostle [Page 41] said vnto the Philippians; It was profitable for thēPhilip. 3. 1. hee should often write vnto them the same things, and it should not be grieuous vnto him so to do.

The place is fitlie alledged to this purpose. And if the Minister of God must not thinke much to doo it, & that without lothsomnes, how shall not the people thinke it necessarie & profitable for themselues to heare it? But to let this passe, what thinke you of zeale vnto Gods glorie, loue of his truth, studie of righteousnes, strength against sinne in all the temptations thereof, comfort in afflictions, confirmation and defence against all error and heresie, charitie towards our neighbours; haue they not need of continual helpe and encrease from the ordinance of God?

No doubt, vnlesse men bee ignorant of the corruptiō of nature, their owne weaknes, the subtil­tie, power, and malice of the aduersarie.

Besides all this, let it bee considered, that the vse of the Ministerie is not more for the instructing, cō­firming, and increasing of iudgement, than for the orde­ring, ruling and menaging of our affections, and be­longeth as well vnto the heart, as to the head: and so much the more, because Salomon saith, Aboue all kee­pingsProuer. 4. 21▪ 23. keepe thine heart.

What is further required vnto preparation?

That wee come not onely with religion and reuerence vnto God and his word, but also with hearts humbled and readie to receiue what shall be faithfullie deliuered, and to bee affected according to the occasion offered, whether it be of ioy, griefe, feare, hope, or what­soeuer.

How may these things be obtained?

Not otherwise than by praier vnto the Lord, for the assistance of his holie spirit, and by diligent and painfull labouring with our owne hearts. And thus much for our owne preparation.

I perceaue it is not so easie a thing to heare a­right and with profit, as the World thinketh. In hea­ring you require presence of mind, and attention to that is taught.

The first against the rouing and wandring cogitations of mans heart, which for humaine vncon­stancie and lenitie of minde, often times carrie vs from the best things: also against those deceipts whereof wée heard before, of intertaining any other action or meditati­on of pietie, that might withdraw vs from the present occasion and dutie required. Lastly against that weari­nes and yrcksomnes of hearing, whereby it happeneth that we are as men set vpon thornes, impatient, discon­tent, and angrie that we are detained from that we more desire, which oftentimes appeareth in our hast to bee gone, whilst wee abide not the praier after the Sermon, much lesse the psalme and blessing in the end, which yetDeu. 27. 9. 12. I thinke to bee a necessarie part of the Ministers dutie, and with al reuerence and humilitie to be attended of the people, as pronounced out of the mouth of GOD him­selfe. The second, to teach vs according to the greatnes of the grace offered vnto vs, and of our necessitie to re­ceaue the same; with all care, watchfulnes and diligence to waite vpon the hand of the Lord, in the Ministerie of his word: remembring the counsell of wise Salomon: Prou. 2. 4. That we must séeke for wisdome as for gold, and digge for her as for treasure, yea hunger and thirst after her as dooth the drie ground for the deaw of Heauen: which we shall the rather doo, if with Dauid wee estéeme the pricePsal. 119. 103. thereof aboue all treasures, and the comfort thereof grea­ter than is the swéetenes of the hony and the hony comb.

It remaineth you shoulde speake of our dutie after hearing.

In this part I required meditation, and prac­tizeDutie after hearing. Meditation. of that which wee haue heard. Meditation, against the negligence and securitie of those, who hold the word [Page 43] no longer in minde, than the sound of the same is in their eares, which appeareth by this, that they are no sooner risen from their seates, than their harts and tongues are gone after some other thing, according to the vaine de­light and affection of euerie one: where we read that the Iewes after they heard Peter preach, came vnto him and his fellowe Apostles, saying; Men and brethren, what Act. 2. 37. shall we doo? The people of Beroea are also commen­dedAct. 17. 11. by the holie Ghost, for that after the preaching of Paule, they examined his Doctrine by the Scriptures of God.

Great is the contempt of manie in this kind.

There is also another vse of meditation, more deepely to imprint into our mindes, and settle in our memories that we haue heard, with a wise and dis­créete application of each thing taught, vnto our selues: considering that all doctrines doo not equally and in lyke sort belong vnto all. Vnto meditation, adde repetition, and conference with others, such especially as belong vnto vs.

I desire to heare you of the last point, which is practize.Practize: Luk. 11. 28.

You know who it is that saith, Blessed are they that heare the word of God, & keepe it. Add vntoIac. 1. 22. this, the exhortation of S. Iames, Be yee not hearers of the word onelie, deceiuing your selues, but be yee also dooers of the same: pronouncing after, those onely to be blessed, which are not forgetfull hearers, but dooers of the work. So that it is plaine, that the end of hearing, is not onely to know the will of God, but also to obey & performe it. For the which cause, the word is called, a light for our paths and a lanthorne for our steps, that wePsal. 119. 105. may walke and liue by it.

You haue satisfied me fully for the hearing of the word, I pray you giue me leaue to aske you a fewe things, concerning those that preach.

It is better to learne and practise our own du­ties, than curiously to examine, as many do, the callings and duties of others. And I wish some were more oc­cupied in excusing the Ministers of God, than in accu­sing them.

You would not haue them norished or con­firmed in anie euill.

God forbid, séeing they should be lights and exemplars vnto the people. But I am of minde, that this reprehension belongeth not vnto all: then I am as­sured that the most do offend grieuously in the manner & circumstances of reprehending. For they reprehend whome they ought not, for what they ought not, and wherein they haue no skill: also vnseasonably for time, place, companie and other circumstances: lastly, with­out all reuerence of their persons and callings, and for themselues most vncharitably, and farre from the rule of Christianitie.

I cannot denie that which I haue heard often with mine eares, and to my great griefe: it is the want of wisedome and loue that causeth this rashnesse, my questions are of another kinde. Some there be that re­quire in their preachers, things that either they haue not, or shew not themselues to haue: as great learning both in holie and prophane knowledges, exquisite or­der and methode in teaching, and a tongue filed and fi­ned with a daintie kinde of vtterance.

If your scruple be onely of these, I can in few words giue you mine opinion, referring you for further resolution vnto others. And for learning, I think it ne­cessarieLearning. in him that should teach others. But when I consider what both the Minister should teache, and the people learne, I define his learning somewhat other­wise than manie doo. Appollo was counted a learnedAct. 18. 24. man, because hee was mightie in the Scriptures and word of God. Paule confessing hee was rude in speach, [Page 45] yet challenged vnto himselfe not to bee rude in know­ledge.2. Cor. 11. 6. What knowledge he ment, it appeareth vnto the Ephes. where he professeth his knowledge in the miste­rieEphes. 1. 9, 3, 4 2. Tim. 3. 15, 17. of Christ. Vnto Timot, he saith, that being brought vp from his youth in the knowledge of the scriptures, they were able to make him wise vnto saluation, affir­ming that the same were able to make the man of God perfect vnto euery good worke.

What thinke you of other learnings?

That they are more vnto ornament than of necessitie. Not that I would denie any good know­ledge vnto the Minister of Christ, but that all may vn­derstand that the first is onely necessarie, alone giueth authoritie and credite vnto him that speaketh in Gods Church: and alone can giue rest, peace, contentment and resolution vnto those that heare, for the conscience of man is of that nature, that it dooth not nor cannot finde any ground or foundation to stay and build it selfe vppon, but onely the will of GOD reuealed in his word.

May he not alledge in his Sermon Councels,Poets and Philosophe [...]. Fathers, Philosophers, Poets?

For the two last I wish them banished out of the Church. And I am perswaded that the trueth of doctrine was not anie waie more annoyed than by Phi­losophie. So that the Apostle may séeme not in vaine to giue that [...] vnto the Church to take héede of Phi­losophie.

What of the other two?

The Doctor may vse them (I thinke) as al­soCouncells and Fathers. Histories, but soberlie and in their place▪ not laying more credite vpon them, than they m [...] able to sustaine. As for the Pastor, though I mislike it not if he bee rea [...] in them: yet in his place, being the mouth of God, I sée not how they may [...] with the integritie of his of­fice. And I see they are vsed more vnto ostentation [Page 46] of reading and memorie: more to the satisfying of the curiositie of some hearers, than to anie sound fruite of those that desire to be edified.

I had forgotten the vse of tongues. I pray youTongues. say also of them.

They are great means for knowledge in those y^t haue thē, & I could admonish all that mind the Ministe­rie, to furnish themselues with so necessarie helpes. But to intermingle them in the preaching of the word, it is in mine opinion full of inconuenience; and I see that the heathen Orators were more wise in this part, than some Christian Preachers.

I will hold you no longer in this. The next is method and order.Method.

If you meane of doctrine, the rule and practise of the Apostle is manifest: first milke, and then strong meate: and in these, that as any principle or article of religion giueth light vnto others, so it bee taught in the first place and before others. But if you meane order of speach, and the menaging of words and matter in euerie sermon, then besides the former rules, I think that me­thod to bee best which is fittest for the matter in hand, and aptest both for conceipt and memorie aswell of the Preacher as of the people. And as I take it▪ there is a greate difference betwixt a constant and perpetuall Mi­nistery, and that which is extraordinarie▪ and vncertaine; also betwéene the continuall pursute of an whole booke of holy Scripture, and the choise of some one text by oc­casion.

Shewe me I pray you that difference.

He that preacheth but once and that by occa­sion, as at Court, Paules▪ Crosse, the Spittle or [...] where, propounding vnto him selfe some few words or verses of the text, gathereth from thence three or foure points or grounds of doctrine, which he meaneth for the time to stand vpon: passing ouer▪ whatsoeuer is els in [Page 47] the text; and so many times of a great number of excel­lent things toucheth no more than liketh himselfe; and to say the trueth expoundeth not the whole text, but v­seth the same as a Theame, or ground of those points, which hee intendeth to handle for that time. Wherein how easie a thing it is to vse an exact kinde of diuiding, all may easelie vnderstand. But he that beginneth some booke of holie Scripture, and continueth to expounde the same; after a generall diuision of the whole, cannot alwaies exactly diuide euerie parcell of text, which will fall out to be the argument of his Sermon.

What must he then doo?

I will tell you so farre as I haue béen for my small learning able to iudge by reading and hearing of the most faithfull and sincere Preachers of our time. Af­ter a generall diuision of the whole booke, following the seuerall partes of the same, to make the text it selfe the guide and direction of all his doctrine; so deriuing the same from thence, as it may appeare rather naturally to grow from the place which he handleth, than by any oc­casion drawne thereunto.

This seemeth not artificiall and methodicall enough vnto many.

They are both ignorant and iniurious, that thinke the perpetuall expounding of the word, ought to bee conformed vnto the speach of an Orator in Court, Senate, or assemblie.

But they require this helpe as they say, first for their conceipt, and then for their memorie.

Both these in mine opinion and as I haue found by mine owne experience; are better holpen by fol­lowing the tennor of the text, than by any method els whatsoeuer, for if I heare with any attention, hauing first conceaued the words of the text, I shall better see and vnderstand both the ground and substance of his speach, and better helpe mine owne memorie to all pur­poses. [Page 48] Why so many accuse this kinde, it groweth from their owne negligence; who disdaming to vse their bookes or memories for the text propounded, doo thereby greatly disaduantage themselues, and iniustly charge the Preacher with that fault which is their owne.

Would you haue all to vse their bookes?

As many as can read: the rest that cannot reade, must more deeply imprint into their memories the words of Scripture at that time read by the Prea­cher.

I am my selfe of your minde, and haue found it to bee true, that when I haue diligentlie marked the text, and the passage and the footesteps of the Mini­ster of GOD, I haue beene afterwards able, by view of the place, to recouer either all or the greatest parte of that which hath beene said in the same order and manner it was propounded. But what an iniurie and pride is this, that whome they acknowledge to bee furnished with necessarie graces vnto the dispen­sation of the Gospell, to him they shoulde prescribe the menaging and carriage of his speach for the edify­ing of his auditorie?

The iniurie indeede is great, the onelie hope is that GOD in his good time will giue humi­litie and wisdome to discerne this follie. Like vnto this is the accusation of negligence, in manie of the ser­uantsDiligence. of GOD. I am no patron of idlenes especial­lie in so serious and heauenly a worke, as is the Preach­ing of the word. Yet I see that the negligence, and pre­iudice of the hearer is oftentimes imputed vnto him that speaketh, which appeareth in this that whome one com­mendeth from the fruite of his owne attention, him ano­ther discommendeth at the same time, as receauing no fruite. Not that the Ministerie was not one vnto both, but for the diuersitie of their behauiour and affection in hearing.

What diligence thinke you necessarie in the Minister for preaching.

I will not take vppon mee to prescribe vnto those, who for their skill and conscience are able and rea­dy to lay vpon themselues their owne burden. Yet see­ing you require my opinion in priuate, I will not refuse euen here to say vnto you what I thinke.

You see my boldnes, but I willinglie binde my selfe vnto all thankefullnesse for this li­bertie.

I must also pray you to beare with my freedome of speache in these causes. First I am not of their minde that thinke no diligence and preparati­on enough, and therefore holde it sufficient, if the Mini­ster preach once in a moueth, fortnight, or at the most in a wéeke: when as the labours of men must be measured by the necessitie of their dutie, and not the duetie of their calling, tempred to a presumed necessitie of their dili­gence.

I agree vnto this, and the contrarie sauou­reth rather of curiositie, and a vaine desire to haue their eares tickeled with a delicate and picked speache, than of a minde desirous of the pure and1. Pet. 2. 2. syncere milke of the Woord, whereby they maye growe vp.

Secondly, I would haue that well considered which our Sauiour Christ saieth, Matth. 13. Euerie scribe that is taught vnto the kingdome of heauen, isMath. 13. 52. like vnto an housholder who bringeth foorth of his trea­surie both new and old store.

What would you build vpon this place.

That the Minister of Christ, who is heere meant by a learned Scribe, being by former studies furnished vnto the woorke of his calling, is not as one that hath nothing but from hande to mouth, and is [Page 50] to séeke of those things which present occasion dooth re­quire: but as one that is rich in prouision and stored of all necessaries before hand, and can furnish himselfe rea­dily with sound, wholsome, and profitable things; re­quiring onely so much labor and time as may be neces­sarie for his producting, ordering and applying of them.

What is then the diligence you doo here re­quire of the seruant of God?

That he diligently weigh and examine the place hee is to handle, for the true and naturall sense thereof: and that hauing laid this ground, hee faithfully collect such doctrines, exhortations, and comforts as the place it self dooth properly and plainely afford. Whereunto, I would haue him not to rest vppon his owne iudgement, but to examine the iudgements of others though not al, which is impossible, yet such as haue delt most faithful­ly and sincerely in expounding of the word. Then, that he carefully consider how the same may be propounded with most fruit vnto his auditorie, whose nature, growth in knowledge, and other circumstances must not be neg­lected. Also that he first make vse of that he teacheth, vn­to himselfe, applying the same vnto the vse of his owne conscience and practize, that hee may after with greater power of the spirite and affection of mind commend the same vnto his auditorie, for he can hardly moue another that is not first mooued himselfe. Lastly that hee pray with all instancie vnto the Lord to giue vnto him in this worke of the Ministerie both wisdome and power of vt­terance to speake the word as it ought to be spoken; and to blesse the hearers with humilitie, reuerence, care of profiting, attention, and whatsoeuer els is necessarie for their fruitefull and profitable hearing.

Mee thinketh this diligence should suffice, but I feare it is wanting in manie: yet where it is, I see not what more can bee required. I haue onelie [Page 51] one thing more to demand of you for this matter: what manner of Eloquence you thinke fit for theEloquence. dispensers of Gods mysteries.

Not that of the heathen Orators and Philoso­phers, consisting in pompe of words, and frame of sen­tences, but that which S. Paule meaneth, when spea­king of his owne manner & forme of vtterance, he saith: Wee haue not receiued the spirit of the world, but the1. Cor. 2. 12, 13. spirit which is from GOD, that wee might knowe the things which God hath gratiouslie bestowed vpon vs: which also we speak not with speach taught by humane wisedome, but taught by the holie Ghost, ioyning spiri­tuall things with those that are spirituall.

What is the sense of these words? for I as­sure you they are beyond my reach. The more hath been my negligence and forgetfulnes of that I haue heard.

First, that the knowledge of heauenly things, euen in those that teach them, is not from the spirit of the world, but from the spirit of God. Secondly, that the same are vttered not with humane eloquence lear­ned in schooles of Oratorie, but with heauēly eloquence, such as the holie Ghost teacheth. Thirdly, that the spi­rituall things of God neede not the helpe of mans wise­dome, nor may without disparagemēt, be matched with the same, but require an vtterance like vnto themselues which is spirituall, and not carnall. This the Apostle calleth the simplicitie and sinceritie of God, opposed vn­to2. Cor. 1. 12. carnall wisedome, & after, a declaration of the truth, such as whereby the Minister of Christ is commended2. Cor. 4. 2. vnto the conscience of all men in the sight of God.

I doo not yet sufficientlie vnderstand the meaning of the Apostle.

Neither can I better expresse it vnto you, than in his owne words. The only helpes which I can fur­ther giue you in this poynt, are these two. First, that [Page 52] you diligentlie obserue the vtterance and eloquence of the Prophets and Apostles in their writings, whom no doubt, as the holie Ghost furnished with the matter and argument they handle, so hee gaue them that forme and maner of deliuerance, which was most agreeable there­vnto. And I greatlie meruaile that so many hauing found out the diuers caracters of humane Orators, no man hath throughly laboured to finde out the caracter and kinde of vtterance, vsed by the holie Ghost.

What is your second helpe?

The examples of the most learned, faithfull, and fruitfull seruants of Christ in the Ministerie of the Gospell, as Caluin, Beza, &c. of the French: of our own I will name onelie Master Dearing amongst many, whose grace in speach of heauenly things doth partlie appeare in his sermons that are extant; but was farr o­ther in the eares of those that heard him. And thus much of this.

It shall suffice: now I will put you in mind of your promise concerning the vnlearned and vn­preachingOf the vnlear­ned Ministery. Ministerie.

You remember it in good time. I haue said before that my meaning is nothing lesse than to become a patron for that [...]rue. Of whome I say first that the Church and gouernours thereof should haue taken dili­gent care that none such might haue entered into the Lords haruest. The next remedie were, if it might bee obtained, that from henceforth none might enter, and these that are, might with all possible speede bee throwne out, and able and sufficient men placed in their roumes.

But heere an impossibilitie is obiected, which cannot be auoyded.

I graunt, if it were to be done in one moment. But that which cannot bee done vppon the sodaine, it [Page 53] may bee gayned in time. And I am perswaded, that if diligent care had been taken from the beginning of the Gospell, it might haue beene effected long before this time. But it seemeth they haue little meaning to per­fect the worke, that will not so much as begin the same: yea themselues daylie obiect newe difficulties and hinderaunces there▪ vnto.

I see then your desire is, that euerie Congrega­tion might haue an able and sufficient Pastor.

It is so: and I am perswaded, that the want thereof, is and will be the cause of all impietie and vn­righteousnes in the land. Besides, it holdeth the aduer­sarie still in hope by the ignorance of the people, and the want of meanes vnto true knowledge, who otherwise should be vtterly without all hope: and leaueth him an open and easie waie vnto all abuse, not of the multitude onely, but also of manie of the better sort: whilest they are not grounded in the truth, nor preserued and kept in the same, as they should.

But is there anie remedie for so great a mis­chiefe?

I sée nor know none in so great securitie of al states, in the causes of religion: vnlesse it might please the Lord pitying the desolation of his Church in this part, to fill the hearts of those that are in authoritie with a zeale of his glorie, and loue of his people, chéer­fully to take in hand, and earnestly to prosecute this part of the reformation of his church, which as it is the chie­fest and greatest, so I wish it had béen first and most la­boured in: then I would not doubt, but God from all places of the land, would beyond all mans expectation, raise vp Ministers vnto his Churches, and that in grea­ter number, than wee can no [...] thinke. And of this I am sure, that the Vniuersities in short time would dou­ble and treble their fruite vnto the Ministerie. [Page 54] But we will leaue this as that which wee may mourne, but which wee can not amend, otherwise than by our praiers vnto God, and such small helpe as is in our owne hands.

I doo not see what helpe it is that is in our po­wer.

Yes there is some thing left vnto vs. First to complaine of the iniurie done vnto vs by an vnpreaching Ministerie, hoping that the godly and Christian Magi­strate will as well aide the people in the complaint of their wrong, as the Minister in the complaint of iniurie done vnto him, which we see to be ordinarie, and that all Courts both ciuile & ecclesiasticall are full of these cau­ses. And so much the more as it is greater reason hee should be heard, that complaineth of hurt done vnto his soule, than he that complaineth onely of iniurie done vn­to his bodie, or to his goods. Then mee thinketh if the Patrones and Bishops were earnestly and in good sort dealt withall, there were hope they would suffer them­selues to be intreated in so lamentable a cause as this, so nearly concerning the saluation of the people, the care whereof they take vpon them. If this should faile, the most Honorable Table of the Counsel were in all hum­ble submission to bee sued vnto, that as in manie causes they protect the bodies and goods of the subiects; so they would for their wisedome and pietie imbrace this cause of our soules. The last hope from men, is by supplica­tion to her Maiestie, that as she hath alwaies shewed a most tender loue, and motherlie affection, vnto the life & welfare of her subiects: so it would please her Highnesse graciouslie to prouide, that it might bee well with their soules.

I haue not heard that these meanes haue been vsed by anie, in order and sort as you haue spoken. It may be, and the hope is great, that this course beeing wisely & dutifully menaged, would receiue a blessing [Page 55] from God. But after, or without these, is there any helpe in our owne hands?

First this, that being plagued with an euill Minister, wee prouide that a better may succeede him, though it be with some charge: for if we purchase lands, and gather goods for our posteritie, much more ought wee to prouide for them that ordinance of God, where­vpon dependeth their saluation.

But what is this for the present, and vnto those that now want the meanes?

Here I haue no better counsell than that which I see God hath put into the hearts of many people in the land; That leauing the tythes, and other emoluments vnto those vppon whom the lawe doth cast them, men doo otherwise prouide for themselues at their further charge.

The most doo easelie, as they thinke, excuse themselues herein in laying the fault vpon thē that receiue those duties, by which they say, they should be prouided of foode for their soules.

No doubt their fault is great, which reaping their corporall things, do not sow [...] or cause to bee sowne vnto them spirituall things, and they shall neuer be able to answere it before the great sheapheard of the sheepe, the Lord Iesus at his comming. Yet this excuseth not them that suffer their owne want, when it may by any meanes bee supplied. And they are forciblie conuicted from their care of the bodie: for if any man by violence or fraud shal depriue them of one part of their substance, they will by the very sense and light of nature helpe themselues and sustaine their necessitie with the rest. How is it therefore that being depriued of the meanes of their saluation, by diuerting of their tythes, they doo not with some part of the nine which remain vnto them, helpe themselues to so necessarie a prouision.

I confesse it should bee so, and that it were [Page 56] much better to prouide for the soule with some wāt of the bodie, than to prouide for the bodie with the want of the soule. But there are very fewe that vn­derstand this, and are affected with it.

The greater is the ignorance, and thereby the condemnation of the world, especiallie after so long [...]ight and libertie of the Gospell amongst vs. Yet my hope is that that which is alreadie seene and remedied of many, will shortly be seene and remedied of moe.

God grant it. Yet during the want of a suf­ficient ministerie at home, you thinke we may seeke the word abroad.

Not so onely; but that we ought to doo it, vn­lesse we should thinke it lesse danger, to want the foode of our soules, than the foode of our bodies. Yet I am of minde there is heere some caution and godlie policie to be vsed.

What is that?

First, not to contemne publique praier, the word read, Sacraments administred, and other exer­cises of religion▪ which I take to bee parts of the ordi­nance & worship of God, as well as preaching: though I confesse it doth farre excell all the rest in dignitie and in fruitfulnes.

I like this well. For I see it is that wherein many doo offend, and so, as they will not enter the Church so long as any part of the Leiturgie is in hand.

Secondlie, I would not haue the insufficient Ministers so rudely and so vncharitablie prouoked as they are of many, but more louinglie and more merci­fullie dealt withall: so would they bee more peaceable and more tractable, than now many are; and more wil­linglie ioyne in the admitting and allowance of a better Ministerie than their owne.

It is as you say. And I know my selfe manie places, where the wisedome of the Preacher dooth [Page 57] easely intertaine not onely peace but also loue, reuerence and seruice at the hand of the Minister: where in o­ther places, there is nothing but a continuall iarre be­tweene them; whilst the one continually prouoketh the other: whereof also it commeth more often to passe, that the vnsufficient Minister crowdeth out the lear­ned preacher, than is displaced of him.

Besides if they were more louingly delt with al, and their Ministery, in that they can doo, lesse contem­ned, they would more willingly beare our trauaile a­broade for that they cannot giue vs at home, and as I haue knowne in many places, both exhort and company their people in so dooing.

I also haue heard, and knowne the like.

Thirdly, in séeking abroad I could like it wel, to ioyne our selues with the next assemblie, where the word is purely and constantly preached, aswell for the honour of the word it selfe, and to auoide the note of par­tialitie; as also for the greater fruite of our owne exam­ple, which vndoubtedly is there where wee are best knowne, and most accquainted.

But is it not lawful here to make thoice of the best?

Yes, if we be voide of ambition and partialitie, & define the best, rather by the honour of the word & pro­fit of our brethrē, than by our own fantasie. In the fourth place I require constancie without wearines and new­fanglednes, for I sée that vnto many, the newest is al­waies the best, and that their attendance is changeable and flitting, according to the noueltie of their teachers.

This in deede is the fault of many.

Others in their conceipts prescribe vnto their preachers, and if they say not in all things what and how they like, they estéeme them not faithfull, nor worthie to bee heard. And I haue knowne this folly in some, that they haue liked nothing better then to heare of the [Page 58] gouernement of the Church and wants in the same, be­ing themselues ignorant and rude in the very grounds and principles of religion. Others ouer easely conceaue offence against their Preachers, and thereby disaduan­tage themselues of the fruite of their Ministerie, char­ging their teachers with want of zeale, learning, and di­ligence; when the change is onely in the offence and alie­nation of their owne mind, and in the preiudice of their owne affections: some in this folly procéede so farre, that they imagine in their Ministers the losse of their former loue and zeale of the trueth, a diminution and extinguish­ing of their gifts: as if the man that is weakened in his sight shoulde complaine that the Sunne had lost his brightnes: finally when for their owne distemper they profit lesse, they imagine their Pastor to bee lesse profi­table.

Enough of these, wee will leaue them vnto the Lord. Let vs now returne, if it please you, vnto the vnpreaching Ministerie against whome there are verie many thinges obiected, and more of late than heretofore.

There is no doubt but their insufficiencie, and want of conscience, iustly causeth many complaints of the people against them. And I could wish that their owne remorse might once so forcibly rebuke them, as they would both bee ashamed and afraide of their offence against GOD, and against his Churche. Yet I thinke there are some, that in the heat of their zeale, and for want of knowledge, doo procéed too farre in this argument. And whiles they looke vppon the sinnes of men, with an ouer streight eye, doo vnwares themselues offend against God.

I pray you giue mee leaue in this place, to ob­iect vnto you as one of those of whome you speake, for I haue beene somewhat acquainted with their argu­ments.

I am content: onely I pray you to be short in obiecting, that I may be short in answering. For I take it that by this, it groweth to ward supper time.

I will be so, and I like it well: for it is the best and neerest waie to satisfaction. First therefore. I will begin with those, that thinke they maie not communi­cate the holie things of GOD, with anie man that is vnholie, whether it bee the Minister, or one of the people.

It is no doubt a great indignitie, that pearles should be cast before swine, much more to he handled & administred of them. Yet we must beware we count not them swine, whom for anie cause in loue and charitie we should estéeme to be shéepe. And I feare manie are too bold here to pronounce the sentence that belongeth not vnto them.

I would gladlie therefore vnderstand of you, whom wee maie account swine, and whome sheepe?

If I be not deceaued, I haue heard that the name of swine belongeth onely vnto those that are with­out, whether not yet come vnto the Church, or reuol­ted and fallen away from the same, with obstinate and resolute contempt against GOD and agaynst his truth.

What thinke you then of the rest?

Of those which are within, iudgement saieth Saint Paule belongeth vnto the Church, not vnto pri­uate men.1. Cor. 26 [...]

Your meaning is, we can not nor may not de­nie vnto them the fellowship of the Church, nor the communion of holie things: but are we not bound our selues to abstaine from communicating with them?

Yes, if you meane communicating with thē in anie thing that is euill. But if you meane we may not communicate with them the holie things of God, as the [Page 60] Word, Praier and Sacraments, I am not of that minde.

The Apostle saieth; If anie that is called a brother, be [...] a fornicator, couetous, and idolater, &c. with 1. Cor. 5. 11. such an one you shall not so much as eate.

He meaneth it of ciuile familiaritie, the liber­tie or restraint whereof is in our owne power. But where we are bound by the commandement of God, and by the necessitie of our owne saluation, the case is other­wise. I may forbeare familiaritie with mē for the Lords cause, but I may not on the other side forbeare familia­ritie with God, because of men.

This is somewhat obscure.

I will speake it yet more plainly. The com­mandement of GOD, concerning his worship, is abso­lute, and suffereth no exception for anie respect of man; so is the necessitie of our vsing the Lords ordinances for our edifying vnto saluation: & therefore we are not, nor cannot be dispensed withall for the neglect of our duetie, by any colour or pretence from other, no more than one seruant knowing his masters will, can bee excused by the negligence or euill demeanour of his fellow seruant. Or if you vnderstand the place either expressely or by comparison of the Lords supper, then must it néedes re­ceiue this sense, that the Apostle would haue them exclu­ded which doo so offend, and not vs, who in this part haue not offended: for what punishment were this vn­to a wicked man, that another for his sake should be bar­red from the Table of the Lord. And there the Apostle manifestly speaketh of the separation of the wicked frō the holy things of God for their vncleannes, not of the faithful their withdrawing of themselues for the vngod­ly their sakes. Now to remooue a wicked man from the table of the Lord, is not in the power of any priuate man but of the whole Church, whom the Apostle there di­recteth to that dutie.

But do not wicked men prophane the holieHagg. 2. 13. things which they touch?

No doubt, and that vnto their iust and great damnation, as the Apostle faith. But yet only vnto1. Cor. 11. 29. themselues: for they are neuerthelesse holie both in the ordinance of God, and vnto them that are holie, that is vnto all that receiue them worthelie. And therefore it is, that the Apostle in the same place, speaking vnto those that come vnto the Lords table, warneth euerie man to examine himselfe; but speaketh nothing of the exami­ning of others.

But are we not guiltie of their vncleannes by communicating with them?

Not at all, for wee communicate not with them in an action of sinne, but in an action of great holy­nes and religion, wherein if they offend by their hipo­crisie or other vnworthines, it is their [...] danger and reacheth not vnto vs, who by the grace of God doo that well, which they doo euill.

It were better perhappes to forbeare, least wee might seeme to confirme them in their ini­quitie.

When the Lorde calleth vs to doo him ho­nour, should wee not come because others refuse? And when hee offereth mercie in his holie Ordinaunces, shall wee not receyue it, because that others doo re­iect it?

I agree vnto this, that no m [...]ns absence should cause me to forbeare.

The other▪ also absent themselues no lesse than these, though in another manner. For drawing neare vnto the Lorde with their mouthes, they areEsa. 29. 13. farre from him in their hearts. So that neither their bodely nor spirituall absence ought to with-holde me [...] from seruing the Lorde, or from seeking the fruite of mine owne edifying. Yea there is more reason, that [Page 62] for Gods cause, I should ioyne my selfe heere with men, than for mans cause to seperate my selfe from God.

My meaning is not to renounce the Table of the Lord for their sakes, but to communicate the same without them.

How may that be, when it seldome happeneth that euen of a small number all should be worthie recei­uers? Remember you not that in the first Supper,Ioh. 13. 24. 24, 26. there were but twelue, and one of them was a diuell?

I haue heard some learned men say, that Judas receaued not the Sacrament with the rest.

The comparison of the Euangelists will ea­sely remooue that scruple.

But his wickednes was not yet knowne vnto the other Apostles.

That also may be doubted of, but say that his sinne was hetherto secret. Yet because it was in him, it did nothing the lesse pollute the holy Mysterie, because it was vnknowne vnto men, so that if we hold this opi­nion of the prophanation of the Sacraments as wel vn­to others as to themselues: the onely feare and suspition of any mans vncleanes, shoulde driue vs away from all communion with them, least their contagion might de­file vs.

You thinke then that though the Minister himselfe, or any of the communicants bee faultie, that wee may not for them forbeare the mysteries of God.

I thinke so, and further: not to auoyd the time and place whereunto wee are bound, least wee confirme our selues and others in this error; that either the sanc­timonie, or fruite of the Sacraments vnto Gods chil­dren, dependeth vppon the cleannes or vncleannes of men. But I must tell you here another thing, that wee are many times too cash and peremptorie in iudging of [Page 63] our brethren, and raising vp offences against our selues.

What is your meaning in this?

That in excluding others from the supper of the Lord wee are rather to followe and expect, than to preuent and goe before the iudgement of the Church.

But you see the loosenesse of the discipline of our time.

It is that, we may lament, but can not amend. Yet whom the Church holdeth in the communion of it selfe, with them wee may not refuse the holie things of the Lord. For if wee may not excommunicate them, much lesse may we excommunicate our selues for their sakes: which in some sort we doo, when for anie excep­tion taken against them, we withdraw our selues from the Table of the Lord. But why doo we not in loue iudge the best of all that submit themselues vnto the vse of the Lords ordinaunces? Séeing wee knowe not the worke of God in them: and therefore may easelie com­mit against them the sinne of the Pharisey in the 7. of Luke, who thought the poore woman to be vnclean, who was cleaner than him selfe. If they do that for the time, that Christians should doo, we are rather to estéeme thē by the present action, than by anie of our suspition or knowledge of them before: leauing the iudgement of the heart to him, who alone is able to discerne it.

What if they haue oftentimes before bewraied their hypocrisie?

We know not in what good hower the Lord will worke the conuersion of a sinner. As often there­fore as he submitteth himselfe vnto the outward testi­monies of repētance, we must suffer our iudgement ra­ther to be led thereby, than to be carried with the vncha­ritable conceipt of our owne suspition. Remember you not the saying of our Sauiour Christ, wherein he tea­cheth vs how oftentimes we should forgiue our brother offending against vs?

Very well: That if seuen times in one day my brother offend against me, and doo seuen times the same day returne vnto me, saying I haue sinned, I must forgiue him.

If I must bee thus charitable in iudgement, and of this readines to forgiue, where I haue interest in the offence, shall I not much more bee of this equitie where the offence lieth not between my brother and me, but betweene him and God? Or shall wee thinke that God who commandeth vs to be thus mercifull vnto our brethren, is not himselfe much more mercifull? To con­cludeMatth. 5. 23. this poynt. Christ said not in Matth. Leaue thy gift before the altar if thou seest there any man that is vnreformed, and see him first reformed: nor if any haue offended against God or against thee, sée him first recon­ciled before thou offer thy gift: but if thy brother hath ought against thee: that is, not if he haue offended, let that hinder thee: but if thy conscience witnes against thee that thou hast offended.

I wil weigh your answers, & replie no further in this question. I know your opinion concerning the manners of the Minister, and of others that they ought to bee no let vnto me to keepe me from the worship of God, and from the meanes of my salua­tion. What thinke you of the vnsufficiencie of the Minister?

I wish this question were rather answered by the Christian gouernment of the Church and Com­mon weale, by thrusting them out of the places, they are so vnfit for, than by me either in rebuking or bewayling their insufficiencie.

That indeed were the best, if it might be ob­tained: but since it is not in our power, how ought wee in the meane time to beare our selues towards them, in vsing or refusing their Ministerie?

First, I see there are many that greatlie [Page 65] deceaue themselues in the opinion of sufficiencie: and they séeme to assigne vnto the Lorde a certaine measure and rate of gifts, vnder the which none may be accoun­ted sufficient, when we knowe that God openeth not his hand alike vnto all.

I hold here the rule of the Apostle, that the1. Tim. 3. 2. Tit. 2. 7, 15. Minister ought to be apt to teach, able to exhort with wholsome doctrine, and to rebuke the gainesaier.

But all haue not an equall abilitie and measure in these things: and therefore as I could wish that al the Ministers of Christ had the gifts not of men onely, but also of Angells: yet knowing that GOD giueth vnto e­uery one according to his owne pleasure; I would de­spise or refuse none which were in any measure able to teach true doctrine, confute error, reproue vice, exhort vn­to honest and godly life, and were faithfull to do that di­ligently, whereunto he is inabled.

Many will mislike your moderation in this part.

I hang not vpon the liking or misliking of men, my rule is the word of God, and the experience of his gouernement in the Church. Who oftentimes humbleth men here as well as in their worldly estate, to teach them to looke vnto him, and the blessing of his hand, and not vnto the mediocritie or excellencie of the meanes he vseth towards them.

You spake of this sufficiently before. Yet doo I now somewhat better and more fully vnderstand your meaning: But there are many now a daies, who seeing the vnpreaching Ministerie to be odious and in­famous in the Church, take vpon them to teach before they haue learned, & as our prouerb saith, to flie before they haue wings.

Wee haue spoken somewhat of these before, & in déed there are too many of them in all places, whose boldnes and impudencie is shameful and ridiculous; and [Page 66] their offence exceeding great, both against God, and a­gainst his Church. And for mine owne part I like those much better, who knowing their owne imbecilitie doo keepe themselues within their bounds, than those which are bold aboue their strength. But I leaue them to those that should reforme them.

Wee are come now vnto those that being vnable to teach, hold themselues contented with that part of the Ministerie, which they are able to execute, as the Leiturgie of the Church, the reading of the word of God, the administration of the Sa­craments, &c. what may we thinke of these?

The opinions of men are diuers concerning them.

I knowe it well, for some esteeme them no Ministers at all, and therefore their ministerie to be no ministerie, & there are learned mē of this mind.

It is not learning that teacheth them this, but their owne preiudice and conceipt, which being once embraced and professed of them, they afterward seeke by all possible meanes to maintaine.

But they seeme to haue many and weightie reasons out of the word, for their opinion.

I haue heard and read a number of them: but to tell you what I thinke, who haue no great learning, though I haue laboured to keepe and encrease that little I had by education in my youth, they neuer conclude the question they take in hād, or if they do, the premisses will not beare the cōclusion, that they hang vpon them.

How so?

They proue what should be, which no man de­nieth, and confute that should not bee, which no man af­firmeth. But they touch not the point in question of that which is, & what is the nature and valour of it. I thinke your selfe will say this is no good argument, They should not haue been made Ministers, therfore they are [Page 67] no Ministers: considering that of the Apostle, some1. Tim. 4. 24. mens faults goe before them vnto iudgement, and some mens faults followe after them.

For the argument I like it not; for so a man might reason against the Magistrate, if he bee not such as he should, that therefore hee is none at all. But for the place you alledged, I do not sufficiently vnderstand how it may be applied vnto your cause.

I will tell you: the Apostle there speaketh of the choice of the Minister and of his ordination thereun­to. Wherein, because men for their ignorance and senitie may offend, he telleth Timothie that some mens faults and vnworthines to that calling are euident before hand, & ought to barre them from the ministery: but some esca­ping y^e present triall, may afterward be found out, which must by a newe examination bee remooued againe from the ministery. Yet hee saieth not that they are in the meane time no Ministers, or their Ministery no Mini­stery, but would haue them cast out, as soone as they are espied, euen by the same hand that let them in.

Then you neither allowe their entrance, nor their continuance in the ministerie; but when they are entred, so long as they continue, you hold them mini­sters.

That I doo. And I neuer yet heard any sound argument against it.

They want that which the Apostle requireth to be in a minister.

I graunt, but if that were enough to proue the nullitie of their calling, then either their staine with any vice prohibited, or their want of any vertue required, should ipso facto, make them no Ministers.

Not so, but depriuable of their Ministerie.

Let that also bee graunted, for the time. Yet must their depriuation be expected, for as they were by publique authoritie admitted vnto the Ministerie, so can [Page 68] they not be remoued but by publique authoritie.

The manners of men are accidentall vnto their callings, but in a Minister to be able to teach, is essentiall.

It hath in déede more affinitie than other parts that should be in him. Yet vnder correction of the lear­ned, I take it not to be simply essentiall, as that without which he is no Minister.

Why so?

I remember héere an olde lesson long ago taught me, whē I was a yong Scholler in the Vniuer­sitie, where I left much good learning behinde me, that, forma dat esse & nomen rei, the formall cause giueth both the essence and name vnto euery thing.

We that are vnlearned, vnderstand not these speaches.

There is more difficultie in the tearmes, than in the things themselues. I will labor to make it plaine vnto you. A man is a man not for his body, nor for that which he hath common with other liuing and sensible creatures, but for y^e reasonable soule he is indued withal.

This I perceiue. But is not his body, life, and sense necessary vnto the being of a man?

Yes, but not so, as the mayme or imperfection of any or all of these should destroy the essence of a man. For though y^e body do want many members, as armes, legs, eyes, eares, nose: and though the senses be many of thē benummed that he can not heare, smell, taste, &c. and though the whole body be oppressed with many grieuous & dangerous diseases, yet is he not therefore no man, so long as there remayneth a reasonable soule vnited vnto this miserable and wretched body. Also a man is a man frō his conception, yet you easily vnder­stand how many & great imperfections there are in the matter and subiect of his nature.

What thinke you then to be the formall cause [Page 69] of a Minister, that giueth vnto him both his essence and name.

His calling and inauguration into the Mini­sterie: for he is not a Minister before, though he had the gifts of an Apostle.

I graunt he is no Minister without this, but doth not also the want of gifts make them to be no Ministers?

The Priests vnder the lawe were oftentimes vnlearned, yet were they not therefore no Priestes, and though they bee called dumme dogges to their great shame and reproach, yet they are allowed to be dogges. I haue not read that any of Aarons successors was euer denied to be a Priest. But I reade that vnlesse hee that affected the Priesthood could proue himselfe to bee of theEsd. 2. 62. house of Araon, he was not admitted therevnto.

Is then the calling of the Church more vnto the essence of a Minister, than his vnsufficiencie is vn­to the nullitie of his Ministerie.

Out of all controuersie, as I thinke. I will willingly heare any grounded reason against it.

I would gladly yet further vnderstand of youCalling. what you thinke to be contained in this word Calling.

First election and choise vnto the function of the Ministery: then admission therevnto by imposition of hands: addiction vnto a speciall charge by authoritie of the Church, and the consent and acceptation of the people.

Bee it then that they bee Ministers▪ and that wee cannot deny vnto them the honour of this calling, so long as the Church hauing receaued them, doth also retaine them: may we likewise vse their Ministerie.

In that where in they are able to doo the du­tie of a Minister, for from whome wee cannot haue all that wee should, we must bee content to take that which they can giue.

For the rest?

What we cannot haue at home, we must seeke abroad, where it is to bee found. Or els with Dauid 2 Sam. 6. 3, 10 seeke to bring home the arke of the Lord vnto our owne dwellings, as I haue alreadie sayd.

We may then pray with them according to the Leiturgie of the Church.

I dare not denie it; yet there are some which thinke there should be no Church Leiturgie, but the Mi­nister should pray and administer all things according to his owne liking.

That would be ful of confusion, distraction, and ambition. Wee may also heare them read the word.

We may so: and I am perswaded, that as publique praier hath greater promise of blessing than that which is priuate, for the cause alleadged by the A­postle, That manie faces finde more fauor before God 1. Cor. 1. 11. than one: so the publique reading of the holy scriptures hath both more maiestie, and more power and blessing from GOD, than that which is priuate: and I see itLuc 4. 16. Act. 13. 15. to haue béen of most ancient continuance in the Church of God.

You are not of minde with some that say, rea­ding is preaching.

No if you vnderstand preaching for the prin­cipall and chiefe parte of the Minister his dutie, and for that which is called the wisdom and power of God vntoRom. 1. 16. 1. Cor. 1. 24. saluation. But if you take preaching for a publique and religious denuntiation of the trueth of GOD, it may in some sort▪ receaue that name, and that by the authoritie of the Apostle in the Acts.

Let vs come vnto their administration of theAct. 15. 21. Sacraments.

If they be ministers, then you doubt not but the Sacraments administred by them, are Sacraments?

That must needes be granted, but not con­trariwise.

I see what you meane: but let vs moue no mo questions at this time. If their Sacraments bee the Sacraments of God, tell me if you can, why they should be refused in that seruice.

Because the preaching of the word, which is the life of the Sacrament, is in their ministerie sepa­rated and diuided from it.

What if it be added in the ministerie of another:

Some also except against this, because (say they) the word and Sacrament ought to meete in one person.

If there were two pastors in the same Church, and the one did preach, and the other for the time bap­tise or administer the Lords supper, were it not agreea­ble vnto the practise of Peter at Caesarea, who cōmandedActs. 10. 48. them to whom he had preached to be baptised by others?

I see no let. Also I remember it is sayd in John Iohn. 4. 2 that Christ himselfe preached, but did not baptise, otherwise than by the hand of his Apostles. Where­vnto some applie that of S. Paule; Christ sent me not1. Cor. 1. 17. to baptise, but to preach the Gospell: but I mooue their obiections. The case is yet harder where the Minister baptiseth, and none preacheth.

So it is. Yet better is halfe a loafe, than no bread. And if the word of God be read both before and in the administration of the Sacrament, I cannot wel see, how the word may bee truely said to bee seperated from the Sacrament.

But it is sayd, that they that come vnto the Sacraments must be taught the nature & vse of thē.

It is necessarie they should knowe both the one and the other: but it were much to say and proue it, that the word must needes bee preached at the same in­stant when the Sacrament is administred.

Did not Christ say vnto his Apostles, GoeMatth. 28. 19. preach, and baptize?

But you must consider to whome & of whome it is spoken: namely, vnto the Apostles, who were to goe out into all Nations, where they must néedes teach, before they could Baptize; and of those which were without, and yet not conuerted vnto Christ, in whome it was necessary they should first be taught, and then be baptized after the example of the Eunuch, and accor­ding to the manner of Iohns Ministerie. But in Chur­chesAct. 8. 31. Act 19. 4. established it may be otherwise, though I like it best, that the word should be preached at the administra­tion of the Sacraments.

Your minde is then that it is most agreeable vnto the ordinaunce of God, and most profitable vnto the assembly, that the word preached, and the Sacra­ments should go together, yet you thinke the want of the one is no sufficient cause, of the refusing of the other.

No more than it is to refuse the preaching of the word, when there is no Sacrament administred.

But should wee not rather seeke the Sacra­ments there, where they are ioyned with the prea­ching of the Gospell.

We must here consider, what belongeth vnto the peace and order of the Church, and how we may a­uoide the prouocation of those, both of the Ministerie and of the Magistracie, whose anger against vs may do more hurt than all our zeale is able to do good.

You would not haue vs to fauour or foster any corruption, to hold peace and credit with men?

Not so. But when we cannot haue al that which we would, let vs take that which wee may: & seeke the rest by such good meanes as the Lord shall offer vnto vs. And I am perswaded, that if they that require reforma­tion, had carried thēselues more louingly both towards [Page 63] their brethren in the ministerie, and also towards those in whose hands is the Ecclesiasticall and the ciuile go­uernement, lesse to haue prouoked them against the cause and against themselues; many things might haue béen won at their hands which now I feare me, wil hardly be obtained.

I haue knowne some of that minde, but they haue been thought too cold in the cause of reformation.

It may be so, but of such as haue more offen­ded in their vndiscretion, than the other in their modera­tion. And I haue sometimes meruailed their successe hath béen no worse, considering the strong and high hand whereby things haue béen menaged. But yonder come our wiues to call vs to supper, wee wil therefore breake off this conference for this time.

I am right sory we can continue it no longer: but I hartely thanke you for this paines, and pray you that as the cause of this was from your selfe: so you will giue mee leaue at some other time to call vpon you for the like.

Let vs now goe meete these messengers, for they meane to take no deniall at our hands, and we our selues being by this wel wearied, haue need of intermis­sion and refreshing, both of our bodies and of our minds.

I will followe you. But there is yet one thing wherein I would craue your fauour and helpe.

What is that?

As you haue reconciled my minde to our good Pastor Master Timotheus, so I pray you recon­cile vs in deed.

I will be very ready and glad to doo so good a dutie to you both, and there will bee a present occasion thereof, I looke for him here at supper, and it may be hée is come already, and would not trouble vs because hee sawe vs in so earnest conference. Lo yonder he is in déed, let vs goe vnto him, the matter may be dispatched be­fore [Page 94] supper, for knowing your minde and the pietie of the man, I doubt not but it will be done at two words. We shall after enioy one anothers companie with more comfort.

I desire it may bee so; and therefore for my part, you shall command me.

Not so: but let vs meete the good father, where hee commeth towards vs: so shall wee deceaue our messengers, who thinke to find vs in this place. But they shall loose no great labour, to come so farre out of their way.