Aunswere.

YOu affirme that we ought to beleeue the Catholique Churche. It is true. we ought to be most assured that the death of Christ was not fruitelesse, but that by it [Page] the Lord hath purchased a peculiar peo­ple vnto him selfe, takinge them out of all places where it hath liked him, according to the good pleasure of his will: without bindinge of himselfe, and his grace vnto any particular person, countrie, or place a­lone, and this we ought to beleeue.

Consider it wel therfore with your self, that the church is a matter that falleth in­to beliefe, in so much that good Christians harkeninge ouermuch vnto their reason & sence, haue somtime iudged amisse therof: takinge it not to be, when notwithstādinge it is, or not there to be, where in trueth it is: stumbling at suche things, as sense & reason are wont to be offended withal: as that the persons be often in number fewe, in condi­cion base, in estimation contēptible, subiect vnto the iniurious dealings of the world: and therfore not onely not equall vnto the rest, but in the iudgement of sence & reason muche inferior. So that necessarilie belief taketh place in the article of the Churche. And if this be true in particular churches, howe much more is the vse of faith requi­red for the Catholique & vniuersal, church, which can not bee subiect to any man his [Page] sight. You affirme moreouer that the holy Ghost is scholemaister vnto the churche, & that therefore this article touchinge the churche is placed next vnto that of our be­liefe in the holy Ghost. I doe admitte your gathering for there nere placing, & I har­tely pray you consider what can be said for the order of their standing. For albeit their places be nere togither, yet the article of our belief in the holy Ghost in order is the former, takinge the first place & the vpper­hande of the other, wherby we are admo­nished, that if any people claime the title of the Catholique church, we are not bound to beleeue them, before they make good proufe, that the holy Ghost hath bene their scholemaister. For they may not come into to the possession of the Catholique church, but by proufe, that the doctrine w^t they hould, hath beene taught them by that hea­uenlie teacher. And therefore let the wri­tings of the holy Ghost bee perused, which are the canonical scriptures, as witnesseth Chrysostom in this woordes:Chrysost. de Fide & Lege Naturae. Omnia quaecunque vel Lex dicit, vel Prophetae vaticinantur, vel Apostoli praedicāt, Sācto spiritui verè tribuuntur & ascribuntur: [Page] And if it shall appeare by them, that you haue beene taught of him, we will yeelde vnto you the title of the catholique church: But if you wil deuide the holy Ghost from the Scriptures, vrginge vs only with his bare name, and doe not warrant by the woord that, which you ascribe vnto him: we can not receiue such a spirit for holy Ghost: because we finde a graunt both of the Spirit and the woord, passed from the Lord vnto the Churche, to continewe for euer ioyntly togither.Esay 59.21. Hoc foedus meum cū eis dicit Dominus: Spiritus meus qui est in te, & verba mea quae posui in ore tuo, non rece­dent, de ore tuo, & de ore seminis tui, dicit Dominus, ex nunc & vs{que} in sempiternum. This is my couenant with them, saith the Lord: my Spirit that is vpon thee, & my woord which I haue put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seede, from hence foorth euen for euer. You saye likewise that the Churche can not erre in matters of faithe, because S. Paule saith shee is Columna & Firmamentū veritatis: If she be the piller of truthe, let vs, I pray you, see the ban­ner [Page] of truthe, I meane the woord of God displayed in your Church, which (you say) is the piller thereof, and then we will not refuse to fight vnder your standard: But you haue hid the woorde of God from the multitude, in the close vessell of a straunge and vnknowne tonge, and from the rest in the darke dennes and dungeons of your owne expositions. For you will allowe thē to make no sence or construction thereof, otherwise than you shall ratifie and allow. And therfore if the Churche bee the piller of trueth, wee findinge no trueth with you, can acknowledge no true Church among you. I am to craue of you, euen by the mercies of Christ, that you would dili­gently peruse that whole chapter of S. Paule, where you gather that the Church can not erre, because shee is the piller and ground of trueth: and then you shall finde that it is not likelie by his dealing for her direction, and that by writing, euen in the least thinges, that he was of opinion shee could not erre. For he hath not left her vnto her owne iudgement vpon that hope, no not in matters, where there was the [Page] least feare of error & deceit. The Apostle, as it appeareth in that chapter, had taught Timothie, that Bishops & Deacons may be no dronkards, no fighters, no mē geuen to filthie lucre, no men whose children liue without awe or cōly order: that their wifes should be honest, no sclāderers, but sober & faithfull in all things, Immediatly after these instructions hee hath these wordes, these things write I vnto the, trusting to come to the very shortlie, but if I tary long, that thou maiest know yet how to behaue thyselfe in the house of God, which is the church of the liuinge god, the piller & ground of trueth. Saint Paul here derecteth Timothie by writing, how to beehaue himselfe for dealinges in the church, touching those things where error seemeth least to be feared. For who wold suspect the church of so much want in iud­gemēt, that shee were to be warned & that by writinge, in hir choise of Ministers to beware of drunkards, fighters, couetous persons, & men that cā not rule their owne housholds. A man would thinke that ciuill men, who haue no help but from fleshe and blood, were sufficiently able to discerne of [Page] thē selfs, that such infamous persons were not meet mē to serue in a place of so great credit. Who woulde not haue trusted the church w^t greater matters than these, if S. Paule by his example had not made vs su­spicious & gelous ouer her herein? Who whē he geueth so much (as you think) vnto the church, euen then & there saieth: These thinges haue I written, that thou maist knowe (if I tarie lōg) how to behaue thy self in the church of god, which is the piller of trueth. He shoulde rather haue said (if he had bene of your opiniō, touching y^e impossibility of the church to erre) I will not trouble the w^t writing of these matters: there is no daunger although I neither speake nor write therof. For the church by whome they are to be chosen, hauinge pro­mise of such assistaunce continually frō the holy Ghost, as that it is not possible for her to erre, can order matters of greater diffi­cultie than these. She can not erre in mat­ters of faith, to iudge amisse of thē, & ther­fore is error much lesse to be feared, in dis­cerning that so grosse euilles as these bee, cānot beseme him, who is to serue the lord in so high a callinge. I hartely beseeche [Page] you to marke it well, that in the same place where you ground the Church can not erre, the Apostle hath left a doctrine vnto the Churche least shee shoulde erre, and that in matters most easy to be discus­sed. So that if the Church bee void of er­rour, it is not otherwise, than so farforthe as shee geueth an attentiue eare to the writinges of the Holy Ghost, which are geuen to keepe hir from swaruinge. For the Apostle doeth first instruct her by wry­tinge, before he tell vs of this priuiledge, which (you say) vpholdeth a fredom from erringe. How bee it you shall hardly per­swade any man of indifferent iudgement, that the Apostle would haue vs to cōceiue so highly of hir impossibility to erre in matters of faithe: as not to inquire whi­ther shee followe therein the rule of the written woord: when in his owne practise, hee leaueth her not without direction in writinge, touching matters not of faithe, but (which is lesse subiect vnto errour) of conuersation: and that euen in the same place, where this priuiledge of hers see­meth to be most vpholden by him. Saint [Page] Paule instructeth a man with doctrine and principles of trueth, that he may knowe howe to behaue himselfe in the Churche, which is the piller of trueth: But you first of all without doctrine, thrust a man vpon your Churche: & then force him to imbrace such doctrine, as ther he shal finde receiued without further examination: because (as you saie) it is the piller of trueth, and ther­fore can not erre. I leaue it to the iudge­ment of euery indifferent reader to consi­der, whither this maner of proceding, bee any thing like vnto that course which the Apostle kepeth. It were the spediest dis­patch of al controuersies, although not the best, yf the one party should bee first put in possession, and ther vpon haue title vnto al thinges possessed: But it were the best, although not the spediest dispatche, if the title were first assuredly knowne and de­termined, & thervpon the true owner put in possession. You will first haue the possessiō of the Church, & thervpō be intitled to the trueth, and all other treasures thereof: Whereas you ought first to proue your title to the trueth to be good: & then might [Page] you lawfully haue possession of the church. As concerninge the sense and meaning of that place of the Apostle, Chrysostome maketh an other exposition of it, than your Churche of Rome can digest. Est columna (inquit Chrysost.) ac firmamentum verita­tis, Chrysost. epistola Pauli ad Tim. 1. capit. 3. non quemadmodum illud Iudaicum tē­plum: Hoc enim est quod Fidem continet ac praedicationem: quippe veritas Ecclesiae & columna & firmamentum est. He saith that the trueth is the piller and grounde of the Church. He will haue the Church to bee a piller hewē out of the truth. In his iudge­mēt the words are to be expoūded passiue­ly, so that the meaning of this saying. (The church is the ground & piller of truthe) is, that the Churche is a piller and made one of the trueth. You woulde haue vs to discerne the scriptures by the churche, because (as you saie) she cannot erre: but Augustine woulde haue vs to discerne the churche by the scriptures, his wordes are these:Aug. in epist. 166. In scripturis didicimus Christum: in scripturis didicimus Ecclesiā: Has scriptu­ras communiter habemus, quare non in eis & Christum & Ecclesiam communiter reti­nemus? Now that we haue sene the strēgth [Page] and grounde of your beginning, I pray you [...]ou consider in good earnest the forme and manner of your proceedinge. And reaso­ning in this triall of true Religion. You first appoint a churche which (as you take it) is the churche of Rome, a number of people who are altogither of your iudge­ment in these matters that are called into question, those you saie can not erre, and therfore by them you will be tried, As if in causes of triall, a man might picke out all the men himselfe who were to passe vpon him: & that lawe & reason woulde permit a mā to refuse God & the country, & to put himself vpon his fellow prisoners, yea and vpon those only of them, who were indited of the same trespasse, that he standeth to be tried of. It is against al right & reason, you shoulde be both party & iudge. Augustine saith in the place before alleged Scripturas cōmuniter habemus, The scriptures are cō­mon and indifferent to both, and therefore mete to iudge: The Romane Churche is a party, and therefore not fit to beare wit­nesse, & much lesse to iudge in this cause. Our Sauiour Christ affirmeth that if hee [Page] shoulde haue had no testimony but frō him selfe,Iohn. 5. his witnesse should not haue ben true, & therfore willeth thē in the same chapter, to search the scriptures, for they (saith he) beare witnesse of me. You testifie of your selfs alone, applealing alwaies vnto your owne churche, which as you saie can not erre, & therfore your witnesse (by the testi­mony of our sauiour Christ) is found not to be trew. Whereunto agreeth Chryso. his woords are these.Chrys. de sancto & adorando spiritu. Venit Montanus dicens: Spiritum sanctū habeo: venit Manichoeus, dicens, spiritum Sanctum habeo: nō fuit au­tem manifestum, vt igitur ne plures nomine seducerentur, quoniam inuisibiliter donum venturum erat, dicit: Quando venerit Pa­racletus spiritus veritatis qui a patre proce­dit, ille vos memores faciet verborum meo­rum, & inducet vos in omnem veritatem: nō enim a semetipso loquetur. Nam si quem videritis dicentē Spiritum sanctum habeo: & non loquentem euangelica, sed propria, is a seipso loquitur, & non est spiritus sanctus in ipso. Sicut enim dicit de seipso, ego a meipso non loquor: vt soluat suspicionem de­ceptionis, imò errorem a veritate separet: [Page] ita vt ostendat quinam habent spiritum sanctum, & qui non habent, sed simulant se habere: a me audistis quid tradidi. Quando veniet inuisibilis spiritus mea loquetur. Si videritis aliquem euangelica repetentem, profectò spiritum sanctū habet, veniet enim spiritus sanctus, vt recordari vos faciat eo­dum quae docui. Si quis igitur eorum qui di­cuntur habere spiritū sanctū, dicat aliquid a seipso, & non ex Euangeliis, non credite. Montanus and Manichaeus two here­tiques, came & affirmed that they had the holy Ghost: therfore our Sauiour Christ least moe should bee seduced by that name, for as much as the gift was inuisible and not to bee sene, saith, when the holy Ghoste the spirit of trueth shall come, hee shall bringe my words vnto your remēbraunce, and shall lead you into all trueth. For he shall not speake of himselfe. For if you see any mā that saith, I haue the holy Ghost, and speaketh not out of the Gospel, but out of himselfe, he speaketh of himselfe, and the Holy Ghost is not in him. For as our Sauiour Christ said of himselfe, I speake not of my selfe, that therby he might take [Page] away all suspicion of deceit: Nay rather that hee might put a plaine difference be­tweene trueth and error: in like maner that he might declare who they bee, that haue the holy Ghoste, and who haue him not, he saith: ye haue heard of me, what I haue deliuered, to wit: that when the inui­sible Spirit shall come, he shall speake of me. If ye shall see any man confirming his cause by the Gospell, that man hath the Holy Ghost, for the Holy Ghost shall come that hee maie bringe to your memo­ries, such things as I haue taught. Therefore if any of them who are said to haue the holy Ghost, speake any things of thēselfs, & not out of the Gospel, beeleue them not. Consider I praye you, that Chrysostome will haue the holy Ghost discerned to be in mē (by this marke) of speaking not of thē­selfs, but out of the woord and Gospel of God. Your church therfore which stādeth especiallie vpon this point: Wee are the church & therfore can not erre: hath not the holy Ghost: for the holy Ghost appealeth not to himselfe. And if to speake out of the word of God, bee the true note of the spiri [...] [Page] of God, and as he saith a plaine distinctiō betweene error & trueth: then nede we not inquire from what place or people hee cometh, as if he were only bound to them that had antiquity & consent to alledge for their Religion: but are to content vs with this (as the true note) to wit that the spirit of God doeth not speake of himselfe, but out of the woord and Gospel of God. Our charge is not geuen vs from god, to make iniquisition from what people he cometh, but with what voice he speaketh. For if he speake of himselfe, that is, if he iustifie not that which he saith by the Gospel of god, he is a deceiuer, what antiquity & consent soeuer bee alledged for him. And therfore Chrysost. in the same place, immediatly after the words nowe alledged, speakinge against the heretique Manichaeus, saith thus: Vbi legisti haec? ex quo non legit haec scripta, sed a seipso loquitur, manifestum est quod non habet spiritum sanctum. Where hast thou read these things? seinge that he readeth not these thinges in the scripture, but speaketh of himself, it is manifest that he hath not the holy Ghost. Would to god [Page] that you & suche as you are, who binde the trueth, & therfore the holy Ghost the spirit of truethe, vnto antiquity, succession of Bishopps, & consent of people: grounding your Religion thervpon: would carefully consider of the iudgement, not onely of Chrysostome, but of Christ himself: ther­by to discerne who they bee, that haue the spirit of god, and who haue him not: then should you clearly se that he is to be discer­ned by his spech, & neither by his yeares, nor yet by the great traine & multitude of mē w^t follow after him, & least of al by the order that they obserue in followinge one an other. His speach doeth so plainely be­wray him, that Chrysostome is not afraid to saye, it is a manifest matter, not subiect to any exception, that if any read not out of the written woord that which they teach other, those same haue not the holy Ghost. For the holy Ghost which was promised, was promised to bee such a one, as should not speake of himselfe, but appeale vnto the Gospel and woord of God for his war­rant. Any man therefore may clearlie se, howe iustlie we chalenge that Spirit that [Page] speaketh in your Church not to be the holy Ghost, for hee appealeth to himselfe, his Councels and Doctors, makinge vs be­leue that there is no certainty in the word, and therfore no safe testimony to bee had from thence: not driuing vs to the Scrip­tures, there to enquire after him: but pul­inge vs from thence vnto the Churche, be­cause she can not (as he saith) be deceiued. The speaches of your Spirit are these: Thus beleueth the Church, which can not erre, this is confirmed by councels and warranted by Doctors: This hath for it antiquity, vniuersality and consent. The voice of the holy Ghoste is this: haue you not read in your lawe? it is written of me in the volume of the booke: the scripture must be fulfilled: it is thus written. Nowe if the holy Ghost must haue the scriptures to testifie and speake for him, not being al­lowe [...] to speake of himself as binding mē therfore to receiue him because he can not erre: surely your priuiledge is mōstruously great, to haue that liberty & credit in your owne cause to speake of your selfe, which is not graunted vnto the holy Ghost him­selfe. [Page] I would be resolued of this one thinge by you, why our Sauiour Christ shoulde put himselfe vpon the Scriptures for his triall being head of the Churche: and you taking your selues for mēbers therof, yet refuse it. If you thinke you shoulde offer your selues wrong because you onely haue the true sense of the Scripture, remember that then our Sauiour Christ hauinge the true vnderstanding of the woord, did offer iniurie vnto himselfe in puttinge himselfe vpon the Sciptures, dealinge with these men, who had not the true sense thereof, be­cause they were not of the churche, which is the piller of trueth. If you saye it is not the safest waye to perswade, and there­fore you send them to the church as vnto a safer waye: consider that in so doinge you charge our sauiour Christ with vnfaithfull dealinge, who hath not sent them to tha [...] triall of the church, which coulde not fail [...] but leade them vnto him: but chose rathe [...] to send them to that trial of the Scripture [...] which (as you thinke) may be drawne thi [...] way and that way, and therfore not with out great danger to deceiue. It can not be [Page] auoyded but that both our sauiour Christ must offer himself wrong (if your assertion be true) in putting himselfe vpon y^e scrip­tures, to them who had not the true sense of the scripture: And also deale vnfaithfully in his fathers house, in suppressinge that which were the best able to lead them into all trueth: and sending them to that which could not but deceiue them, they not hauing the true sense therof. I doe therfore much marueile howe you can satisfie your owne conscience, in groundinge your faithe and perswading your self touching religion, to rest safely whersoeuer you shal find a nōber of people professing religion, who of long time together with a great nomber haue obserued the same: seing that our Sauiour Christ neuer vsed any such reason to per­swade them w^t were enimies vnto trueth. Dare you challeng such wisdom vnto your selfe, as to haue found out a wiser way to induce men vnto the trueth, or to continue them therin, then the onely wise God hath practised? Or dare you charge him w^t vn­faithfulnesse, in concealing that manner of reasoning & perswading, w^c is most able to [Page] preuaile? Or dare you leauinge out his manner of persuasion, vse an other and yet promise vnto your selfe the best successe therby? As for his manner of perswadinge men vnto the Gospel, and howe it differed from the seducers and false teachers that went before him, may appeare plainely out of the scriptures. Which thing is wel obserued by Chrysostome in these words.Chrysost. de san­cto & odoando spiritu. Venerunt igitur illi falsi Christi, & non do­cuerunt ex lege & Prophetis, sed ex seipsis loquuti sunt & ex propria sententia: Salua­tor venit, & non discessit à lege, non disces­sit a Prophetis, sed dicebat quasi in exemplo benè dixit Isaias, Et iterum, Nonne scriptū est in lege vestra? Et eum accederet ad eum diabolus dicit, Dominum Deum tuum ado­rabis & illi soli seruies. There came false Christes (saith Chrysost.) & they taught not out of the lawe & prophetes, but spake of them selfs: Our Sauiour Christ came, & he went not from the lawe, he went not frō the Prophetes, but said (to giue it you in example) Well spoke the Prophet Esaie. And agayne. Is it not written in your lawe? And when the deuill came vnto him, [Page] he said vnto him. It is written, thou shalt worshippe the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serue. We haue here that māner of persuasion w^t our Sauiour Christ tooke to bee the best, and therefore practised the same: and not onely that, but (as Chryso­stome saith) he was discerned therein, frō the false Prophets which went before him. Wee may see also in this practise of our sauiour Christ, a plaine confutatiō of your strongest reason, which moueth you to fly frō the scriptures vnto fathers, Doctors, and the churche. You were wont to saye if one alledge scriptures for his purpose, and another holdinge a contrarie opinion, shall likewise bringe in scriptures to vp­houlde his iudgement: how shal the trueth bee tried but by the writinges and exposi­tions of fathers vpon these places? Heere you see that Sathan would perswade his purpose by scripturs, our Sauiour Christ flieth not for defence vnto the Churche, al­ledging the writings of the learned Iewes, and the expositions of the Rabbines vpon that place, but by an other place of scrip­ture, beateth out the true sence & meaning [Page] of that which was misaleaged by Sathan: to wit, that he might so hope for helpe and defence from God, as that he stode bound neuerthelesse to vse such meanes as the Lord should giue into his handes, because it was written in an other place of Scrip­ture, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God; which he should haue done, if hauing meanes to goe downe safely, hee should for all that haue cast himselfe headlonge off the pinnacle, in hope that the Lorde woulde not suffer him to dashe his foote a­gainst a stone. You maye see that the scrip­ture hath in it self sufficient light, to cleare and make plaine the darke places of her self: And therfore they ar iustlie charged to be infected with a most dangerous heresy, who perswade & mainteyne a great doubt­fulnesse and obscuritie to bee in the word, therby to shunne the reproufe of their reli­gion & conuersatiō: according as Irenaeus testifieth in his third booke.Irenaeus lib. 3. Cap. 2. Haeretici, cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur, in accusationē cō­uertuntur ipsarum scripturarum, quasi non rectè habeant ne{que} fint ex authoritate: & quasi variè sint dictae: & quia non possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciant tra­ditionē. [Page] Heretiques whē they are reproued by the scriptures, they returne an accusatiō against the scripturs, as if they were not of sufficient authoritie, and as if they were doubtful & diuersty to be taken & expoūded: & that the trueth could not be founde out by the scriptures, of those men which knowe not y^e traditiō. These are the very speaches of your Churche at this daye against the scriptures, that the scripture hath no right title and sufficient authoritie to decide con­trouersies, & discerne spirites, because it is but a dead letter, & that one place may bee taken in diuers & sundrie senses, & that the true sence can not be had but onely in your churche, because it knoweth the tradition, that is in what sence the fathers haue deli­uered it vnto thē. I haue tould you already that it was the practise of our Sauiour christ, to appeale vnto the scriptures rather thē vnto the church: so consider I pray you, that wee finde it in the scriptures, that the wicked & vngodlie haue appealed rather to the Churche, then to the Scriptures: reasoning as you doe, that they were of the Churche and therfore coulde not be de­ceiued: And thervpon haue taken liberty, [Page] not onely to neglect the word brought by the true Prophet of God, but also to perse­cute the bringer. For thus speake the Iewes against Ieremy: Ieremy. 18. Come and let vs imagyne some deuyse against Ieremy, for the lawe shall not perishe from the Priest, nor counsaile from the wise, nor the word from the Prophet: Come and let vs smite him with the tongue, and let vs not giue hede vnto any of his words. You may see that vpon this grounde that the law could not perishe from the Priest, nor the word from the Prophet, which is this in effect, that the Churche coulde not erre: they take liberty to fight against the truthe, and true Churche of God, and not to regarde the wordes of the true Pro­phet of God.

Answeare.

YOu make iiii. notes or marks of the true churche whereby shee is to bee knowne & discerned. The first for that shee is at vnity within hir selfe, both touchinge hir doctrine and Sacraments. The second because the fruits of holines and true righ­teousnesse abound in hir. The third in that shee hath the Apostles doctrine deliuered [Page] into her handes, by a continuall succession of Bishops, frō the Apostles time vnto the end of the world, for I thinke that is your meaninge, albeit your wordes warrant succession of Bishoppes and Doctrine no longer than vnto this tyme. The fourth, be­cause her faith Doctrine and religion is v­niuersal. Because you bring foorth proofes afterward (such as they be) for the streng­thening of your opinion touchinge these markes & notes of the church: the answere therunto shall sufficiently teache vs what to thinke of this that you haue said, and in what sense and meaninge, or with what caution and condition, these are to bee re­ceiued as markes of the Church.

Answeare.

TO prooue that in the church is Vnitie of doctrine & sacraments, you alleage out of the Prophet these wordes: Dabo eis cor vnum & viam vnam. Iere. 32. vers. 32. I will giue them one heart and one way. I hope you haue read the chapter, and therefore doe [Page] remember that this people whom he pro­miseth to bring againe out of captiuitie, & then to giue them one hart and one waie: had alreadie a kinde of vnity and consent among them:Iere. 32. vers. 32 for the Prophet in this same chapter affirmeth, that the Princes Pro­phets Priests and people had consented to turne their backes vpon the Lord, and had set their Idolls in the house whervpō his name was called. And this their vnity and agreement in such corrupt doctrine & worshippe of God, was the cause why the Lord (as he had decreed to punish them by geuinge them ouer into the handes of the Chaldeans) euen so did execute the same decree in deede, And yet not so, but that he promiseth afterward in his time to bring them home againe to their owne land: and then to giue them one hart and one way to feare him, and to plant sincere Religion & the true feare of god among them. You may see by this place, that there is no true vnity but in veritie and truthe, because the Lord speaketh vnto this people, who had great agreement in their corruption tou­ching the seruice of God: as if they had bene at deadly dissention: sayinge, I will [Page] giue them one hart and one waye. Your doctrin is not the veritie, as God willinge shalbe plainly proued when I come to that place, and therfore your agreement howe great soeuer, is the most dangerous diui­sion that can be, for that it is sundred from the trueth of Christ and his Gospel. I con­clude therefore against you with this testi­mony, that because you haue not the veri­tie with you, therefore you haue no vnitie among you. For this place plainly pro­ueth, that it is true doctrine and religion, which maketh men to be of one harte and one waye, in so much that the Lord when he promiseth to restore sincere worshippe and seruice of God, saith, I wil giue them one hart and one way. Our harts & wayes doe newer growe vnto any vnity in deede, before they bee established in true Reli­gion: but be so variable, that wee may bee ledde by the crafty wilinesse of men, from one error into another without any stoppe or staie. For in so many grosse corruptions as haue entred into your churche one after another, & one more corrupt then another: some whereof the most of you nowe (since [Page] the late reuiuing of the Gospel) begine t [...] blush at: which of you euer before this time did once stande against any of them [...] Your ready cōsent to euerye of them with­out gainsaying, declareth that if there had bene as many moe of no lesse corruption, you should for all that haue had no powe [...] to haue withstoode them. And no mer­uaile, for we doe neuer make any staye be­fore wee come to the knowledge of sincere religion, which when it entreth beginneth to make vs afraide of corruption euen in the least things that haue no warrāt from the trueth of God. If you geue any cre­dit to the Prophet in this place, you maye neuer speake of vnitie, without restrai­ninge it to trueth and veritie. And there­fore you may see howe your first witnesse reprooueth your iudgmēt touching Vnitie, without any mention of veritie and trueth. I truste you will giue mee good leaue to deale by waye of demaunde with you, so longe as I haue no other meaninge, then in this our disputation of vnitie, to set you and your witnesse at one. Tell me therfore I pray you at your conuenient leysure, if [Page] this people of Israel to whome he saith he wil giue one hart & one way, were not the church of god (albeit there were great cor­ruptions amōg them in the seruice of god) wher the church was at that time? And if you say they were the Church, then an­sweare me howe these two hang together, that the Lorde promiseth in the tyme to come, and after their returne to giue them one hart and one waie, which is (as you say) ment of vnitie, wheras you are of opi­nion that there is no true Church, if there bee not already vnitie among them. And therefore haue not onely made it a marke, but the first marke of the church. I long to heare from you of some good agreement made betweene you and your witnesse.

Your second testimony for Vnitie is taken out of the Gospel after Saint Iohn. It is the prayer of our Sauiour Christ vnto his father for his elect. These are the words. Pater saencte serua eos per nomē tuū, Iohn. 17. quos dedisti mihi, vt sint vnum, prout & nos. Holy father saue them by thy name, whome thou hast geuen vnto me, that they [Page] may be one as we are. You shall spare me, albeit I receiue not your expositione seing that our sauiour christ hath opened his own meaning, for he himselfe doeth more plain­ly declare this matter in this same chapter when he prayeth that this may bee graun­ted vnto all that shall by the Apostles doc­trine be brought to beleue in him:Iohn. 17. Vt omnes vnum sint sicut tu pater in me, & ego in te, vt & ipsi in nobis vnum sint: that all may hee one as thou father in mee and I in the, so they in vs may bee one. Hee prayeth not simplie for agreement, but with addition, that they may bee one and at agreement in God the father & in Christ, & remaine one in them, which is performed when the trueth of his word is truely imbraced and followed, for then are we said to be in him, as appeareth in the xv.Ioan. 15. of this Gospell. Si manseritis in me, & verba mea, in vobis manserint: (saith our Sauiour Christ) de­claringe that this is to abide vnited vnto him, when his word abideth in vs. Like­wise in the second to the Colossians, after that he hath told them that al the treasures of wisdome & knowledge are hid in Christ, [Page] and therefore willeth them, as they haue [...]eceiued Christ Iesus, so they shoulde [...]alke in him: forthwith he warneth them [...]o take heede that no man deceiue them [...]y Philosophie,Colos. 2. according to the tradi­ [...]ions of men, & not according vnto Christ, [...]eclaring that this is not to be in Christ, [...]either to walke in him, whē we walke af­ [...]er the traditions of men, and remaine not [...]nited vnto him, and at one w^t him in his woord. Prooue vnto vs then, that you are one in God the father, & in Christ, by be­ [...]ng vnited vnto the truth of their doctrine, and that you remaine in them, by hauing theire words remaining in you: and thē we wil make good reckoning of such an agre­ [...]ment. But seeing the contrarie is appa­rant, we affirme out of this place, that the prayer of our Sauiour Christ, is not ve­rified in you, that you should abide one in them, because their woordes and doctrine abide not in you.

Besides this you are to be put in re­membrance, that albeit our Sauiour Christ praied for vnitie, that it might, be graunted vnto his disciples to be one, yet [Page] that prooueth not that without imperfecti­on they did enioy it, for he prayeth in like manner in the same Chapter for the faith­full, that they might be deliuered from e­uill, Nowe who knoweth not, that his be greatly subiect to euil, whether you vnder­stande it of outwarde or inwarde euilles, spirituall or temporall, as wee call them, and yet notwithstanding that prayer was heard for them as well as this. I say ther­fore, that as the Church is voide of euill, so is it of dissention and variance, and as it is troubled notwithstanding this pray­er with euil and oftentimes geueth great offence by falling into the same: So is it in like manner with discorde and dissention. These speaches therefore which bee absolute in them selues are by the iudge­ment of the Learned, to be limited ac­cording to that measure which is graun­ted vnto man to attaine vnto, and not ab­solutely to bee pressed as you doe.

You alledge moreouer for proofe of your assertion, out of the Actes of the A­postles that there was in the primitiueActes. 4. [Page] Church vnum Cor & vna anima, One heart and one minde. It is true that there was greate agreement in that peo­ple, which was as it were the first fruites of the spirit of God, and of the Apostles doctrine and laboures: and such an a­greement as Churches planted after by the Apostles themselues had not the like, as it is apparant in the Churche of Corinth, and yet a true Churche, and so called and accounted of by the Apo­stle Paule. There was such vnitie of af­fection among them, that they liberally employed their goodes one vppon an o­ther, as necessitie required, and albe­it the vnitie of minde and affection which they had among them selues was verie great, yet it was not so vniuersal, as that it did admit no exception of any parti­culars, for we reade immediately after of two Annanias and Sapphira: that were not so single hearted toward their bretheren as the rest, and therefore recei­ved punishment accordingly. But I pray you marke that it is sayd there Multitu­dinis credentiū, erat cor vnum & anima vna: [Page] They were faithfull and beleeuers of the woorde of God, and not seruantes and slaues to the traditions of men, that had this Veritie among them. Vnitie there­fore is in this place (as before) restrained vnto veritie and trueth. So that if you looke for any helpe from hence you are to prooue the trueth of your doctrine, before you bring in the vnitie of your affections. But let this be graunted, what haue you saide for your selfe? yee haue brought for proofe one exāple, if you had brought ma­ny of these, a Logiciā would haue answea­red you, that examples prooue nothing, & what exceptiōs may be taken against your one example? was there not murmuring & complayning immediately after, among this number, y^t are said there to be of one heart & mind, for that the Grecians their widowes were not prouided for,Actes. 6. and therevpon a newe order taken for their better prouision? and were not two of this number, whose heartes were saide to be one, hunted out from among the rest, and made a Spectacle of the iustice of God a­gainstActes. 5. [Page] dissimulation? Moreouer howe can an example how true soeuer at the begin­ning and for some little time, become a rule to binde all men for all times? Now the daunger of diuision is greater as expe­rience doeth tell vs in the continuance and encrease of the Church, then at the first planting and building of the same, so that an example of vnitie in the Church long continued and encreased, had beene more forcible and fit to induce vs, then this of the Church newly planted.

The place alledged out of the Ro­manes exhorteth vs to beare one with the infirmities of an other,Roma. 15. to receiue them are the weaker sort, not to disdaine them, or cast them of in their weakenesse and in­firmities: remembring well how Christ hath receiued vs in our wantes. If hee speake of Vnitie in doctrine and Sacra­mentes in this place as you say, his praier for it, doeth rather argue a want to be as yet in thē of the thing, then to importe any present possession thereof. For wee are not woont to pray for the thinges we haue [Page] alreadie, and you know your Assertion mainteineth that vnitie can neuer be sun­dred from the Church because it is a spe­ciall note and badge thereof. The autho­ritie out of the Epistle to the Corinthes is directly against your Assertion,1. Corinth. 1. for there were (as he affirmeth in that chap­ter) Sectes and Schismes amongest them, one holding of Paule, another of Apollo, which he praieth may be staied & no more hard of amongst thē. There being then sectes and schismes amongst thē, and yet notwithstāding he geuing them the name and title of the Church, as appea­reth in the beginning of that Chapter: prooueth that euerie diuision by and by taketh not away the name of the Church from those that are so deuided. To bee briefe, that place which inferreth a diui­sion to haue beene in a Church, it notwith­standing remaining still a church: is but a weake ground to prooue that Vnitie is an vnfallible note and marke of the Church.

You conclude with Augustine in his e­pistle one hūdreth sixtie sixe. For you haue mistaken the nūber, it is not as you quoat it. There are not many woords aledged [Page] out of him, and yet they are not all true­ly alledged, howbeit you haue most of all swarued from his meaning, I will there­fore set you downe his woordes both be­fore and after.August. Epist. 166. His at{que} aliis similitu­dinibus Dominus seruorum suorum tolle­rātiam confirmauit, ne dum se boni putant malorū permixtione culpari, per humanas & temerarias dissensiones aut paruulos per­dant, aut paruuli pereant, quod vs{que} adeo coelestis magister cauendum praemonuit, vt etiā de praepositis malis plebem securā face­ret, ne propter illos doctrinae salutaris cathe­dra desereretur, in qua coguntur etiam ma­li bona dicere, neque enim sua sunt quae, di­cunt, sed Dei, qui in Cathedra vnitatis do­ctrinā posuit veritatis, de praepositis suis ma­la facientibus, & dei dona dicentibus ait: quae dicunt, facite: quae autem faciunt face­re nolite. Augustine in this Epistle defen­deth y^e church against the Donatistes who charged it to be defiled w^t the wickednes of some euil men, w^t whō it did communicate, and that in communicating with those euil men in the Sacramentes, they were made partakers of their sinnes. He vseth certain similitudes taken out of the Scripture, [Page] to confirme a tolleration of euil manners, when without daunger they cannot be re­formed, shewing the daunger of rashe diui­sion, how strong it is to ouerthrowe the weake, and that the Lord hath forewar­ned vs to take heede of this rash deuiding of our selues from the Church, because of the euill life of some: in that he warranteth the people against the euill manners of their guides and Teacher [...], in asmuch as he commaundeth then to heare their doctrine, but not to followe their example of life and conuersation. For euill men saith he are compelled by the woorking of God to speake good thinges, neither are they their owne, but the matters of God which they doe vtter, who hath placed the doctrine of truth euen in that chaire, where there is vnitie with euill manners. Ther­fore the truth himselfe of guides doing e­uil, but saying that which God hath geuen thē, saith, do as they say, but do not as they do. This is the vnitie that Aug. speaketh of, which is to be restrained to the matter he hath in hande, to witte, that the euill life of some in the church, is no sufficient [Page] cause to make a diuision from that church. For if it had, the Lorde woulde not haue moued vs to heare those, and to doe as they saye. And yet which is more, he doeth fore­warne vs to beware of diuidinge our selfs rashly from such, in that hee compelleth oftētimes men of euil life, to deliuer good and sound doctrine vnto his people, and hath got a place for his trueth out of that chaire, where they doe sit who are at vnitie with euill manners. If we were departed from your churche, onely because of your euill life, findinge no fault with your doc­trine, you might reply with Augustine, & saye vnto vs: In cathedra vnitatis posuit doctrinam veritatis: Hee hath placed true doctrine in their mouthes, who in their life are at vnitie with euill conuersation. But your doctrine is at deadly debate with the trueth of God his word, and therefore wee haue a Christian quarell against you, not for lyfe onely, but especially for euill Doc­trine, and the Lord I doubt not shall in his time reuenge vs of you, by killing the er­rour which is within you. I conclude ther­fore against you by your owne testimonies, [Page] that vnitie simply as you haue set it down is no note of the churche, but Vnitie wit [...] additiō [of trueth and Verity.] I conclud [...] also against you by your own witnesse, tha [...] there is no such Vnitie required in doctrine, as to exclude frō the church all thos [...] that are at any kinde of variety, touching any point of Doctrine within themselues We saie of variety in that doctrine which toucheth not the foundation of Religion, yea albeit the article it self shall touche th [...] foundation, when yet notwithstanding th [...] controuersy is not about the hart and prin­cipall part thereof:August. epist. 76. as Augustine saith o [...] the diuersitie of obseruatiōs in the church [...] Sit ergo vna Fides vniuersae, quae vbi{que} dila­tatur Ecclesiae, tanquā intus in membris, etiā si ipsa fidei vnitas, quibusdam diuersis obser­uationibus celebratur, quibus nullo modo quod in fide verū est impeditur: omnis enim pulchritudo Filiae Regis intrinsecus: illae autē obseruationes quae variè celebrantur, in eius veste intelliguntur, vnde illi dicitur in fim­brijs aurets circumamicta varietate. Al the bewty of the king his daughter which sig­nifieth the church, is as August. saith in­ward, [Page] but her outward garmentes are of [...]iuers colours, to declare that variety whe­ [...]her in doctrine or cerimonies, so it bee in [...]he garmēt, not peircing the hart & bowels of Religion, can not take away the bewty of the church which is altogether inward. As for you that wil acknowledg no church where there is any variety in doctrine, I can proue vnto you, not onely that your churche hath had diuersitie & dissension in doctrine, but also that you haue bene at cō­tention about such pointes of doctrine, as shake the verie pillers & groundes of Reli­gion. Wherin lest you should thinke that I would alledg the authoritie of some that were partial in my behalf,Matth. Paris. fo [...]. 824. I am contented to be tried by Mathew Paris, a Mōke of S. Albōs. who in the chronicle that he writeth doth declare, that in the yeare of our Lord, 1243. which was the xxvii. yere of the reigne of Henry the thirde, then King of this Realme of England, there was great controuersie betweene the fryers and the Vniuersitie of Paris, because that the friers taught in pulpittes, & mainteyned in publique lectures, these opiniōs following.

That the diuine essence was not th [...] same altogither in the holy Ghost, tha [...] it was in the father, & in the sonn: whic [...] plainely vphouldeth an inequalitie o [...] persons contrary to the Christian faith [...]

That the holy Ghost, as he is loue, pro­cedeth from the father only, & not als [...] from the sonne: whereas the Chri­stian belief holdeth that he procedet [...] from them both.

That neither the soule nor the body shalbe after the resurrection in that hea­uē where the Angels are, but in another aboue the firmament.

That the euill Angel in his first crea­tion was euill and neuer good: which o­pinion chargeth the Lord of necessity to be the Author of euill.

That an Angel in one instant may be in diuerse places, and euerie where if he will: which opiniō intituleth the Angels vnto that which is only proper to God.

That Adam had neuer such a state of innocency, as that he might haue stoode and not haue fallen frō the obedience of God. which opinion doth ouerthrowe the Iustice of God.

That he that hath more helpe of nature, [...]hall of necessitie haue more grace and greater glory. This opinion vtterly ouer­ [...]hroweth all the doctrine of the free mer­cies in Christ, of mortification, and rege­neration. These opinions being once bro­ched and publiquely mainteyned in the Scholes, the Doctors of Paris (as there was great cause why) did stoutly resist and stand against them, settinge downe their iudgement vnto euery article seuerally in this forme of wordes. Hunc errorem pro­hibemus, & assertores eius & defensores excommunicamus. We forbid this error, & the mainteyners and defenders thereof we doe excommunicate. You can neuer prooue that the greatest controuersie that euer was or is at this daye amongst vs, was so material and did so nerely touche the foun­dation of religion as doth the least of these. And therefore when you write againe, let vs not I pray you heare of any exclama­tion against the diuision that is amongst vs as you say touching Doctrine: vnlesse you will set downe some particulers, and let the world see that you deale plainly & [Page] simply, and are able to prooue indeed tha [...] which in general termes you would seem [...] to cary away. I am well assured that ther [...] was neuer any such dangerous opinions professed in our scholes; or contended for a­mong the learned that professed the Gos­pel at any time, wherof in degree of error i [...] might truly be said that they were matches & equall vnto these. And if you continewe neuer so longe in seking monuments & re­cordes, yet shall you not finde the like a­monge vs.

Answeare.

ECclesia est sancta. Another note to dis­cerne the Church by, is Holines: for the Church is the temple of God, & there­fore not prophane, but holy, as it is writ­ten.1. Pet. cap. 1. Be ye holy for I am holy. This sancti­fication and holinesse wee haue not by na­ture, but by grace. The pathes of godlines and true holines, are descried by the word of God, our naturall witte iudgeth not a­right thereof. The word of God as it doth discouer the right way and declare what works be acceptable to GOD, so it doeth by exhortation quicken and stirre vs vp therevnto, and therefore our Saui-Christ in the prayer that he made to his fa­ther for the Church,Iohn. 17. hath these woordes: Sanctifica eos veritate tua sermo tuus veri­tas est. Sanctifie them with thy trueth, thy woord is trueth.Ephes. 4. And in the Epistle to the Ephesians this word Truth is ioined with righteousnesse and holines, as a marke to distinguish betweene true and counterfaite woorkes. His woordes are these Induite nouum hominem, qui secundum deum crea­tus est in iustitia & sanctitate veritatis. Put on the newe man which is created after [Page] God in righteousnes & holines of trueth, or in righteousnes and true holines. And in the next Chapter the Apostle likewise coupleth the trueth with goodnes & righte­ousnes. Vt filij lucis incedite, nam fructus, Iohn. 15. spiritus situs est in omni bonitate, et iustitia, & veritate, probantes quid sit acceptum do­mino. Our Sauiour Christ saith, iam vos puri estis propter sermonem quem loquutus sum vobis. Now you are holy by reason of the woorde that I haue spoken vnto you. The tree must be good before the fruite be good: we must be sanctified with the truth before we can bring forth fruits of true sāc­tification and holinesse. As for your church she hideth the word of trueth, the holy scrip­tures, from the people in an vnknowen tongue, and mainteineth workes doene of a good intent, which the Scripture con­demneth,Num [...]ri. 15. when they haue no warrant frō the word. Your fruites therfore may seem faire to the eye, but to the cast & triall they can not be good, because you are not good tres your selues: good trees you are not, be­cause you want the sap of y^e truth & word of God [Page] and are fedde with inuentions and tradi­tions of men, and your owne good intents and deuotions. I knowe you looke that I should prooue this out of the Fathers, to wit, that we must haue in vs the good seede of the woord, before wee can bring foorth good woorkes acceptable to God, and that it is required that we our selues should be good, before we bring forth good fruite. Wherefore I am to require you, to consider what Chrysostome writeth of this matter.Chrysost. De fide & lege naturae & sancto spirit. Offendes equidem multos, qui quamuis sermonem veritatis non acce­perint, & foris sint, operibus tamen pietatis, vt apparet, sunt conspicui. Inuenies viros misericordes, compatientes, iustitiae vacan­tes: sed nullos facientes fructus operum, quia nescierint opus veritatis. Thou shalt finde many, who although they haue not recei­ued the woord of truth, but are without, yet notwithstanding are, as it appeareth, famous for their good woorkes: thou shalt finde men mercifull, full of compas­sion, geuen to vpright dealing, but for al that, bringing forth no fruites, but leaues of woorkes, because they bee ignorant of [Page] the woorke of trueth. Vnto him agreeth Hierome. his woordes are these.Hieron. in Agg [...]. capi. 2. Quia haec mandata sunt nobis, vt ponamus corda nostra in vus nostris, ascendamus in mon­tem rationabilem: & ad singula problemata congrua de testimoniis Scripturarum lig­na quaerentes, praecédamus ea, & aedifice­mus domum sapientiae in nobis: postquam enim haec fuerit extructa, finis aedificationis eius, erit, vt dominus glorificetur in nobis. Because these thinges are geuen vs in commaundement, that wee should set our heartes vpon our waies, let vs goe vp vn­to the mountaine of wisdome, and for eue­rie doubt seking fitte wood out of the testi­monies of the Scriptures: let vs cut it downe, and builde a house of wisedome within vs, for after that shall once bee built, the end of that building shalbe, that the Lorde may be glorified in vs. And vpon the second chapter hee speaketh yet more plainely vpon this matter. Possumus dicere frustra aliquos munera offerre Deo, Hieron. in Agge, cap. 2. & eleemosynis atque oblationibus putare Deum posse placari: cum ipsi non extruxe­rint in se templū spiritui sancto, tunc enim [Page] {pro}sūt eleemosynae & munera quae offeruntur in altari, cū seipsum quis aedificauerit tēplū dei et post aedificationē tēpli, dona obtulerit in altari. We may say that these men do offer giftes in vaine to God, and thinke that God will be pacified with almes and offe­ringes, when they haue not built in them­selues a Temple for the holy Ghost. For then are almes acceptable & gifts which are offered vpon the altar, when a man hath first built himselfe the temple of God, & af­ter the building of the Temple, shall offer giftes vpon the altar. This woord of God which is the wood appointed for the buil­ding of the Temple of God, you are no­thing acquainted withal, you are not often conuersant in the profitable reading and hearing thereof, and therefore no mar­ueile if neither your faith be grounded vp­on the promises in the woord, nor your di­rection for good woorkes be taken out of the Lawe of God, but followe custome and your owne deuotion, to guide you vn­to that which you trust vpon, and to those woorkes which you were woont to doe. As before you learned out of the scriptures: so nowe you perceiue by the fathers that no [Page] man can offer an acceptable gift vnto God, before there be a temple of God, and the matter that maketh vs the temple of God, is not founde in our owne deuotiō, but only to be had in the written woord of God. Or­der therfore would that before you had told vs of the sacrifices & offerings to be made, you had admonished vs of the building of that Temple, where the sacrifice must be offered if it bee acceptable vnto God. You should haue told vs that we [...]ut of the com­fortes and promises of the woorde, were first to be made liuing vnto God, and then to haue required of vs good woorkes the testimonies of this life. I see no difference betweene this your teaching of workes & theirs who are Ethnickes & heathen men, for they haue required and practised many good woorkes, before they them selues through faith in the word were made good and acceptable vnto God. Learne therfore if you wil not of the scriptures, yet of the fathers, to be come a Temple made of that wood which he hath appointed, before you make any greate accompte of the good deeds & oblatiōs w^t you do offer vnto him. [Page] Now let vs see your fruites and go [...] woorkes. The fruites of sanctifica­tion and holynesse you make chastitie of life, almes deedes, fastings, building of Churches, Vniuersities, Colledges, Hospitalles, lending of money for chari­tie and not for vsurie, and praier for the deade. I haue with some diligence perused the xi.Hebr. 11. chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrues, where I see the good works and fruites of the best men, for the which they haue got them an euerlasting remē­brance by the testimonie of the spirit of God, and are set foorth as paterns and examples of true obedience. I finde there no mention of manie of these which you doe set forth as the principall woorkes, but great commendation of others which you haue not so much as once named. I doe finde there great commendation of one Abraham the father of the faithfull, a great rich man, not for building of Churches, Hospitalles, or Colled­ges, but for leauing his friendes, and countrie, going out from among them, at the commaundement of the Lorde, [Page] not knowing where to become. Wee are able to shewe you many such g [...]od workes among vs.Roma. 15. For diuers in this land of great wealth, haue in the late dayes of Queene Mary for their conscience sake, in iustifing the cause of his Gospel,1. Corint. 1. and therfore at his cōmandemenr, left frendes, landes, goods, and coūtry, not knowing where to become. I doe read there of one Moses, a milde and mercifull man by the testimony of the holy Ghost, commended not for lending of mo­ny without taking interest, or building of Hospitalles for poore and impotent men, neither yet for mercifull remembrance (as ye do counte it) of the dead in his prayers: but for that he refused to be called the sonne of Pharao his daughter,August. epis. 1 [...]5 and chose rather to suffer aduersitie with the people of god, thā to enioy the pleasures of sinne for a sea­son. And if this bee a good worke wee can shew you many of these. Peruse that chap­ter, consider the men there mentioned, you shall finde that they were of the best.Iere. 32. vers. 32. Exa­mine the fruites of their faith, their good deedes, & cōpare thē with the most of these that you haue recited, & doe require. Note [Page] the varietie. Marke howe many of yours ye can finde registered there, that is a true kalender of Christian workes, they are no counterfaits, they cā not but kepe waight, for they are currant by the lawe of God.

Blame mee not if I doe require your ca­refull consideration hereof, for the diuer­sitie of these Spirits maye not lightly be let passe. The one sauereth of the earth so doeth not the other. For if a wordly man that was neuer brought vp in the schole of Christ, bee asked his iudgement be­tweene the good deede of that man whoe doeth builde a Colledge, and of another whoe leaueth his countrie with Abraham at the commandement of God: he wil pre­ferre that of buildinge a Colledge farre a­boue the other, as beinge a visible monu­ment that contineweth for euer, commo­dious to many: full of glory in the iudge­ment almost of euery man: whereas the memory of thother passeth awaye with the deede done, commodious (as cōmodi­tie is measured in worldly respects) vnto none, subiect vnto the mislikinge of an in­finit nomber. And as concerninge all those [Page] deedes that you do reckon vp in forme and manner as you doe them, wicked men haue practised thē all, & men that neuer heard of the Gospel wold if cōparison were made, preferre them before these which are regi­stred by the holy Ghost, as the best deedes of the best men. Yours would weigh more with wordly minded men. And therefore we may safely say that they are of th' earth & not from aboue, for the world loueth and liketh her owne. My meaninge is not to speake against or to mislike in any respect, buildinge of Colledges Hospitals & chur­ches, when they proceede of a hart purified by faith, & therfore seking the glory of god & not his own therin, & be ordeyned for the aduauncinge of God his word & true wor­ship, not to the maintenaunce of Idolatry and superstition. Thus much generally for workes, to let you see what is y^e sappe that maketh the tree good, & what be the frutes that are left in the register of the holye Ghost, as the best workes of the best men. Now let vs come particularly vnto the se­ueral good deedes w^t you set downe. First for prayer. Wee vse and practise it as the [Page] speciall weapon of a Christian souldiour, we offer it vnto God as a speciall part of his glory, which he will not communicate with any other: wee teache men to pray in spirit and trueth: not in an vnknowne tongue without any vnderstanding of the trueth, and therfore without any affectiō of spirit vnto that trueth. The scripture that commendeth fastinge and alloweth it, nei­ther knoweth nor approueth your manner of fasting. Compare your fasting with that which we doe read of Ioel. cap. 2. Ionas cap. 3. Nehemias. 9. the second of the Chroni­cles. cap. 20. You shal finde no more resem­blāce betweene thē, than is betweene whyte & blacke. In these fastinges there were spe­cial occasions, thereof and speciall prayers conceiued & made thervpō for their release: there was no abstinēce from one kinde of meate, & liberty for another, but abstinēce frō all meats for that time. With you spe­cial occasiō doeth not appoint the time: but your set dayes and times, bring on all the occasion that you haue. Their prayers were peculiar according to the occasion, you haue no special and peculiar prayers, as you haue not any peculiar occasion:

With you, there is not abstinence from al [...]inde of meat for that time, but change of [...]ne kinde of meat for another, and that of [...]entimes no lesse delicat thē the other. So that you may well bee nombred with those men against whome Ierome speaketh Ad Nepotianum. Quid prodest oleo non vesci, Hieron ad Ne­potianum. & molestias quasdam difficultatésque ci­borum quaerere, Caricas, piper, nuces, pal­marum fructus, similam, mel, pistacia? tota hortorum cultura vexatur, vt cibario non vescamur pane, & dum delitias sectamur è regno coelorum retrahimur. Audio praete­rea quosdā contra rerum hominúmque na­turam, aquam non bibere, nec vesci pane, sed sorbitiunculas delicatas, & contrita ole­ra, betarúmque succum, non calice sorbere sed concha. Proh pudor, non erubescimus istiusmodi ineptijs, nec taedet superstitionis? insuper etiam famam abstínentiae in delitiis quaerimus? What auaileth it not to feede of oile, and to seeke for the driest and hardest meates, as dry figges, pepper, nuttes, dates, manchets, hony, and those nuttes, which the Apothecaries doe much vse, al the garden is troubled, that wee might not [Page] eat common meat, & while we follow after dainties we are drawne from the kingdom of god. I doe heare moreouer that there are certaine men, which contrary to the nature of men, neither drinke water nor eat bread, but suppe delicate brothes, and suppinges, pothearbes brayed, & the iuice of Beetes not out of a cuppe, but out of a shell. Fye for shame doe ye not blush at this folly? are you not ashamed of superstition. Moreouer we doe seke the commendation of abstinē­cye in such dainties. You se here howe aun­cient your kind of fastinge is, and what Ie­roms iudgement is of such fastes, where ordinary meates are changed with delicat dainties. If he were liuinge to beholde your common kind of fastinge, hee woulde surely renewe his oulde complaint against the superstitious fastes of his time & say, Proh pudor, non erubescitis istiusmodi inep­tijs, nec taedet superstitionis, insuper etiam fa­mā abstinentiae in delitijs quaeritis? We haue not onely to charge your fastes as Ierom did the superstitious abstinēce of his tyme: but also as the Prophet doeth the pro­phane fastinge of that tyme that hee liued [Page] in.Esay. 58. Ecce in die ieiunij vestri inuenitur voluntas vestra. Beholde in the daye of [...]our fast you are founde to doe your owne will. As their fastinge was not regarded of the Lord, because their owne will was satisfied and not the Lordes, touching their dealinge with their poore brethrē: so yours is abhominable, because in your seruice done not vnto man, but with vs more vnto God, you are founde stifly to vpholde your owne will and deuotion, not yeldinge vnto his written woorde and commaundement. And therfor in a greater degree of offence, reiecting your fastes as did the Prophet theirs, wee may iustly say: Ecce in ieiunijs vestris inuenitur voluntas vestra. For all your fastinge you are still founde vp­holdinge your owne will against the Lord and his woord. Those afflictions that you speake so much of, whereby you pretende to bringe the body in subiection to the Spirit, if they were greater then they are with some of you, yet not with­standinge you haue them in common with Idolaters of all tymes.

For this is a note of thē, as witnesseth the [Page] Apostle in the second chapter of his Epi­stle to the Colossians, Colos. 2. that they make a shewe of wisdome and Religion in hum­blenesse of minde, and in not sparing their bodyes: which Ierome vpon this place confirmeth in these wordes. Non vos sedu­cat Philosophia ad humanam doctrinā, Hieron. in Col. cap. 2. quae sapientiae & abstinentiae specie subornatur, in qua, tam vana est corporis afflictio, tā stulta meditationis intentio, cui [...]s bonum ad ca­piendas & infirmandas hominum mentes, quasi quidam laqueus, Diabolo aucupante, protenditur, quò facilius malum suū sequens inducat. Let not Philosophie seduce you vnto mans Doctrine, which is set foorth with the shewe of wisdome and abstinence, in the which the afflicting of the body is so vayne, and the earnest intent of meditation is so foolish, the goodnesse wherof is hong before by the Deuill, as a snare to take the mindes of men and to weaken them, that therby the more easely he may bring in the poyson of doctrine that cometh after. This matter he toucheth also in his exposition vpon the Prophet Aggeus in these words. Et super omnē laborem manuum, Hieron. in Agge. cap. 1. & ieiunia [Page] eorum, & obseruationes varias, & humi dormitiones, qui tribus quadragessimis per [...]num ieiunantes, & xerofagis humiliantes animā suā, & vel maximè de Taciani radi­ce crescentes: super huiuscemodi laboribus audiunt, tanta passi estis sine causa. Vpon the labour of their handes, vpon their fa­stinges, and diuerse obseruations, vpon their sleepinges vpon the ground, which fast three Lentes euerie yeare, and bring lowe themselues w^t eating of drie meates, and especially those which spring of the roote of Tatianus: they heare of such la­boures: ye haue suffered so great thinges in vaine. You may see by the testimonie of Hierom, that the afflicting of the body, is not alwaies the best marke of the Church of God and true religion. That which be­fore was spoken generally may well be re­newed heere, to witte, that not onely none of these afflictions and humblinges of the bodie, but also no other thing how good so­euer of and in it selfe, can please the Lord, before by faith in his woorde we be made his Temples. To which ende Hierome, in an other place doth yet speake more ful­lie [Page] and plainly.Hieron. in Agge. cap. 2. His woordes are these: Omne quod fecerint, quod mihi obtulerint, vel vota pro salute, vel pacifica, vel pro pec­cato, vel pro delicto, vel in holocaustū: siue e­leemosynas, siue ieiunia, siue victus conti­nentiam, & Corporis castitatem, contami­nata erunt in conspectu meo. Quamuis e­nim sancta videantur specie su; quae offe­runtur a talibus, tamen quia tacta sunt ab eo qui pollutus in anima est, omnia polluētur. As for the bringing of his bodie into sub­iection, which the Apostle speaketh of, & chastising of it, I doubt not but those who truely professe the Gospel haue it, abstei­ning not onely frō vnlawful cōmodities & pleasures, but also frō those that be lawfull, whē the enioying therof were likely to hin­der the course of the Gospel, which was his meaning to declare, as any man may per­ceiue, who w^t indifferent iudgmēt wil per­use that chapter. To conclude this contro­uersie of fasting, you cōtending to binde it vnto certain daies & certaine meates, & we denying the same: let Tertullian, a man neare vnto Christ his time be iudge here­in.Tertul de ieiunio aduersus Psychi­cos. These are his words Certè in Euange­lio [Page] illos dies ieiuniis determinatos putant, in quibus ablatus est sponsus, & hos esse iam solos legitimos ieiuniorum christianorū abolitis legalibus & propheticis vetustati­bus. Vbi volunt enim agnoscunt quid sapiat: lex & prophetae vsque ad Ioannem. Itaque de caetero indifferenter i [...]iunandum ex ar­bitrio, non ex imperio nouae disciplinae, pro temporibus & causis vniuscuius{que}: sic & Apostolos obseruasse, nullū aliud imponētes iugū certorum & in commune omnibus ob­cundorum ieiuniorum. He affirmeth that in the tune of the Gospel those dayes are appointed for fasting, in which the bride­groome is taken away, meaning thereby such times as bring speciall occasion with them to admonish and warne vs for the humbling of our selues before the Lorde, & that y^e Apostles did thus obserue it: lay­ing no yoke of certain & determined fastes vpon men, but left it to be doone according as the cause of euerie one shoulde require. You see how plainely he speaketh against y^e restraining of it to certaine daies & time: & as plaine & as flat is his speach immedi­atly after against the restraining of vs [Page] in it to certaine meates, Xerophagias ve­ro nouum affectati officii nomen, & proxi­mum ethnicae superstitioni, quales [...]astimo­niae Apim, Isidem, & magnam matrem, cer­torum eduliorum exceptione purificant, cū fides libera in Christo, ne Iudaicae quidem le­gi abstinentiam quorūdam ciborum debeat, semel in totum macellum ab Apostolo ad­missa detestatore eorum, qui sicut nubere prohibeant, ita iubeant cibis abstinere a deo conditis, & ideo nos esse iam tum prenota­tos in nouissi [...]is temporibus abscedentes a fide, intendentes spiritibus mundi seducto­ribus, doctrinis mendacilo quorum inustam habentes conscientiam. He affirmeth that the eating of certaine drie meates is a new name of a strange and affected office, nere vnto the superstition of the heathen, and that all meates are set at libertie vnto vs, and that we are let in vnto the sham­bles without anie restraint, and that by the Apostle himselfe, who (as he saieth there) doth detest thē that forbid to marie, & com­maunde to absteine from meates created of God. As before you heare his iudge­ment for restraining of fasting vnto cer­tain dais: so now you heare it touching the [Page] restraint of certaine meates in fasting. It appeareth that although he were neere vn­to the Apostles time, yet euen then this superstition begoon, which afterwarde so greatly preuailed.

The good woorke that you spende most trauell vpon, is praier for the dead, and that woorke you would establishe by Scripture, and therefore when you haue alleaged the place out of the second booke of the Machabees, you adde these wordes [Dicit scriptura:] and proceede to prooue that booke of the Machabees to be canoni­call scripture, by the testimonie of Au­gustine. You quoate in the margent [Au­gust. De ciuitate dei. lib, 18. ca. 26. Aug de ciui. dei. lib. 18. cap. 36.] In that Chapter there is no such matter. I thinke you meane the thirtie sixe Chapter of that booke, there are the same woordes that you doe alledge, but I haue to charge you of not setting downe the whole sentence, but supressing of that which openeth the whole matter, you shal giue me leaue ther­fore to set downe the whole sentēce as it li­eth. His words are these: Ab hoc tēpore a­pud Iudaeos restituto templo, non reges sed principes fuerunt vsque ad Aristobulum, [Page] quorum supputatio temporum, non in Scrip­turis sanctis quae canonicae appellantur, sed in aliis inuenitur, in quibus sunt & Ma­chabaeorum libri: quos non Iudaei, sed ecclesia pro canonicis habet, propter quorundam Martyrum passiones vehemen­tes atque mirabiles. Augustine as you see, affirmeth this supputation of time not to be found in the holy Scriptures which are called canonicall, but in other bookes, a­mong the which are the bookes of the Ma­chabees: He declareth plainely that the bookes of the Machabees are others and diuerse from the bookes of the holy Scrip­tures which are called canonicall: Non in Scripturis sanctis, quae appellantur canoni­cae, sed in aliis, in quibus sunt & Machabae­orum libri: he doeth not say, in quibus erro­re opinionis Iudaei existimant esse Macha­baeorum libros: But these are his wordes, In quibus sunt & Machabaeorum libri. Hee doeth not say that they are falsly thought by the Iewes to be among other bookes, which are not called canonical, but expres­ly, that they are among bookes that be not called canonicall. You lay fast holde vpon [Page] this other half of the sentēce: Quos non Iu­daei, sed ecclesia pro canonicis habet: If you will haue none of that that goeth before, I pray you let vs haue that, that foloweth im­mediatly: Propter quorundam martyrū pas­siones. The church reckoneth of the bookes of the Machabees, as if they were canoni­cal, because of the suffering of certain mar­tyres. If they were altogither and simply canonicall, what meaneth he to adde any particular respect, as this is, [Propter pas­siones martyrum,] for the suffering of Mar­tires, why they should be accounted cano­nical. If his meaning be in his latter part, to heale whatsoeuer was wounded by him in the former, why is not his plaister as large as the wound? In the former part of the sentence without any condition or re­spect, he had affirmed that the bookes of the Machabees were not amōg the holy scrip­tures, which are called canonical, now whē he should as you thinke heale this long and large woūd, he cōmeth with a litle plaister and telleth vs of one cause in respect wher­of these books were reputed of the church [Page] as if they were canonicall. And that it is his manner not to speake of those bookes with generall allowance and approbation as he doeth of canonicall scriptures, but with condition, cautions, and particular allowance for some one speciall cause, w^t hee neuer doeth of the canonicall Scrip­ture: It appereth in his second booke a­gainst the second Epistle of Gaudentius cap. 23. Where disputing against the Do­natistes, who alledged the fact of Razis, for the murthering of them selues, he hath these woords: Et hanc quidem scripturam, quae appellatur Machabeorū non habēt Iu­daei sicut legem, Prophetas, & Psalmos, qui­bus dominus testimonium perhibuit tanquā testibus suis dicens: oportet omnia impleri, quae scripta sunt in lege, & prophetis, & psal­mis de me: sed recepta est ab ecclesia non in­utiliter, si sobriè legatur vel audiatur, maxi­mè propter illos Machabeos qui pro dei lege sicut veri martyres a persequutoribus tam indigna atque horrenda perpessi sunt. Con­sider wel with what cautions this book is compassed about by Augustine, and how spare his allowance is vnto it, in respect of the Canonicall Scripture.

It is receiued of the church, saith August. not vnprofitably, if it bee reade soberly, es­pecially for those Machabees, that suffered so many thinges of the persecutours for y^e lawe of God, that the Christians (saith he) may learne from hence that the afflictions of this time are not worthy of that glory which shalbe reuealed. Out of this Epistle of Augustine, we may learne an aunswere for that place alledged by you of Iudas Machabeus his fart. The Donatistes (as appeareth in that epistle) alledged Razis his killing of himself, (w^c is commended in the 14. chapter of the 2. booke of Macha­bees,) as an example to approue the mur­theringe of themselues: euen as you do the fact of Iudas Machabeus for prayer for the dead. His answeare is this. Non debe­mus quicquid in scripturis etiam Dei testi­monio laudatos homines fecisse legerimus consentiendo approbare: sed considerando discernere, adhibentes iudicium non nostrae auctoritatis sed Scripturarum sanctarum atque diuinarum. You may see that hee would not haue vs builde vpon priuate ex­amples & factes, albeit the men that haue [Page] done them were good & cōmended by God himselfe, but to discerne of them by the au­thoritie of the scriptures. This example therefore of Iudas Machabaeus touching the dead, may not by the authoritie of Au­gustine forthwith be yelded vnto because it was his doinge, except being discerned by the Scripture, it bee founde to receiue confirmation from thence. For priuate ex­amples can make no general rules of doc­trine. Augustine his iudgement for the authoritie of these bookes you greatly stād vpon: & therefore his iudgement of priuate examples and factes I hope you will not mislyke. Neither haue wee onely his doc­trine to lead vs not simply to approue this or any like fact, before it bee examined by the holy Scriptures: but his practise also in this same chapter disalowing the fact of Razis, which is commended by the Author of those bookes, and crossing the se­ueral thinges geuen out there as matter to his great commendation.

Wee are therfore no bolder with this Author in this our attempt, then Augu­stin [Page] himself is with him, in another priuate fact commended not a litle by the same man.

Peraduenture you desire to knowe what that diuersitie is which hee maketh betweene the Churche of God nowe, and the Iewes, as concerninge these bookes.

This it is, that the Iewes neuer closed those bookes with the Canonicall vnder one prayer of clapses as the Churche doeth now readinge them togither with thother, And yet they cary with them euen nowe their note of difference and imperfection, that wee may not take their authoritie suf­ficient to confirme any Doctrine, and that by the iudgement & practise of the church, accordinge as Ierom testifieth in his pre­face vpon the Prouerbes of Solomon: his woordes are these: Sicut Iudith & Tobiae & Machabaeorum libros legit quidē eccle­sia, sed eos inter canonicas scripturas non re­cipit: Sic & haec duo volumina legat ad aedi­ficationem plebis, nō ad authoritatē Ecclesi­asticorū dogmatū confirmādā. As y^e church [Page] readeth the bookes of Iudith, Tobias, and the Machabees, but receiueth them not for Canonicall scriptures: so it may read these two bookes (meaning the booke of Wisdō and Ecclesiasticus) for the edifyinge of the people, but not for to get authoritie and confirmation to any Ecclesiasticall opi­niō. You heare Ierome say that the church doeth not receiue the bookes of the Ma­chabees as canonicall scripture, that they are not of authoritie to cōfirme any thing in cōtrouersy, here is not (Iudaei nō recipiūt) sed Ecclesia non recipit. If these words. Diligit Dominus portas Syon super omnia taberna­cula Iacob, import this meaninge (as you think they doe) that the Lord hath opened more of his trueth touching the authoritie of those bookes, & so of prayer for the dead, vnto his churche since Christ, then hee did before vnto the Iewes, because hee loued Syon more thā Iacob: why doe you fetch your authoritie of praying for the dead out of the tabernacles of Iacob, and not out of the gates of Syon, out of the oulde Testa­ment, and not out of the newe? You can not finde prayer for the dead in all Syon wher [Page] the loue of the Lorde is so aboundantly to be seene, you are glad to seeke into the ta­bernacles of Iacob, and finding no succour there neither, at last you light vpon a pore tente, which bewrayeth it selfe not to be of the same buildinge with Iacobs taberna­cles. For the Author of those bookes cra­ueth pardon if hee haue swarued in anye thing, which the holy Ghost is neuer found to haue done. It is farre from that spirit of all trueth, to feare fallinge into errour in any of his doings, so it is also from him that is god almightie in power equall with the father, to say, If I haue spokē slenderly & barely, it is that I coulde: as if any thinge were impossible vnto God. I neede not to labour greatly for the discredite of your authorities, for they are at such variance w^t me in thēselues, that one doeth ouerthrowe another. For your first authoritie saith, that prayer for the dead is deliuered in writing from the holy Ghost: Your other authorities that followe they saye it is not so, but that it is only deliuered vs by word of mouthe and practise from the Apostles: for so doe you afterward define of traditiō, [Page] opposing it vnto the written word as ano­ther member. And therefore I pray you consider howe these doe depende one of an­other, that in your first authoritie you should say: [Dicit scriptura,] alleaging the Machabees, and afterwarde saye: [Dicit traditio.] For Chrysostome & Augustine whome you bringe in afterward, say that it is a tradition of the Apostles: & therfore either your Scripture is no Scripture, or else their tradition is no tradition. You must remember what Irenaeus saith in the first chapter of his thirde booke. Non per alios dispositionem salutis nostrae cognoui­mus, quàm per eos per quos Euangelium peruenit ad nos, quod quidem tunc praeconi­auerunt, postea verò per Dei voluntatem in Scripturis nobis tradiderunt, fundamentum & columnam Fidei nostrae futurum. Wee knowe not our saluation by any other then these, by whome the Gospel hath come vn­to vs, which then they preached, and after­warde by the wil of God left it in writing to bee the piller and foundation of our faith. That which the Apostles by the wil [Page] of God left vs in writinge, must bee the grounde of our faith. And therefore I am to require you to begin there, and then to declare and prooue, howe faithfully you haue succeded them in that doctrine which they taught. Wee finde not this Doctrine in that Scripture which the Apostles left written vnto vs, to bee (as Irenaeus faith) the piller and grounde worke of our faith: and therfore wee can not finde you to haue succeeded them in this Doctrine: vnlesse you can proue that they had this doctrine. For to succeed a man in any thing, necessa­rily inferreth, that the same man must haue had that thinge before. If you wold haue proued your Doctrine of good woorkes to haue beene Apostolical, you shoulde haue prooued that the Apostles taught the same woorkes in the same manner that you doe. I dare therefore boldly say, and shalbee ready at all tymes to prooue, that you are not the Apostles successors in your doc­trine of sanctification. And as you haue not beene faithfull vnto the Apostles, to succeede them truely in their Doctrine, [Page] no more haue you beene vnto others that came after them, who albeit they swarued some thing frō the purity of the Apostles, yet were they farre of from such great cor­ruptiō as you of late tyme haue embraced. For proofe hereof let vs consider what that memorial of the dead was, which Diony­sius Areopagita reporteth to bee the tra­dition of the Apostles. I will not nowe dis­pute whether he were Paule his scholer or no, neither yet whether those Canons w^t you speake of, were the Apostles Canons. Only this I wil say, that it were as hard a piece of worke as euer you tooke in hande, by good and sufficient authoritie to iustifie these your assertions. It is written, not as you quoat it in his booke, [De coelesti hie­rarchia,] but in the 7. cap. of his booke. De Ecclesiastica hierarchia, where you shall plainly vnderstande that your church hath not suceeded him in his doctrine, touching the memorial of the dead, albeit you alledg his authoritie for your defence. This Dio­nysius speaking of those who are not per­mitted to cōmunicate saith thus. Nō incon­uenienter autem adsunt us quae modo ge­runtur, Dionis. de Eccle. hier cap. 7. [Page] patentiùs discentes at{que} intuentes nostrae mortis incertum, sanctorúmque mu­nera de scripturis celebrata diuinis, & in­tēta sibi similibus impuris infinita supplicia, ex his enim fortè proficient, cernentes eum qui sancte obiit ministrorum praedicatione celebrari; vt verè consortem sanctorum omnium, fortasse{que} & ipsi ad simile desideri­um ventent, ministrorum officio edocti quā sit beata & verè foelix in Christo cōsumma­tio. In that memoriall of the dead which Dionysius hath left as the practise of his time, the deade was celebrated by the mi­nisters voice, as one who had alreadie felo­shippe with all the Saintes, you cele­brate your deade, as men lying vnder the heauie punishment and wrath of God for their sinnes, boiling in Purgatorie, farre from anie likelyhoode to be in felowship already with all the Saintes. The cele­bration of the deade in that time was so comfortable (for they had no celebration of any, saue them who died godly) that it was thought necessarie for the woorse sort, to heare and see it, to bring them in loue with that kinde of life and conuersati­on [Page] which they see was glorified in the end. Fortasse (inquit) & ipsi veniēt ad simile desi­derium. Your memoriall of the deade is so fearefully set foorth, while euerie man is set a woorke to help to haal and pul him out of Purgatorie not onely at the time of his buriall, but manie daies after: that it were ynough to terrifie a strong hearted Christian from that profession, where the best are no better entreated: if you had not some secret plaister of Indulgences & Pardons, to heale vp this wounde againe. True it is, there is mention there of praier for the deade, (for I will deale otherwise with you then you doe with me) not hiding anie thing of that, that seemeth to make most against me. Precatur oratio illa (in­quit Dionysius) diuinam clementiam, vt cū­cta dimittat per infirmitatem humanam admissa peccata defuncto, eúm{que} in luce sta­tuat & regione viuorum, in sinibus Abra­hae, Isaac, & Iacob: ista vt reor perspicua sunt beatissima sanctorum praemia. In this praier for the deade it is required of God for him, that his sinnes may be forgeuen, [Page] and that the Lord woulde place him in the land of the liuing, with Abraham, Isaac and Iacob, because that is the rewarde of the Saintes. Afterwarde he mooueth a question about this praier, what it shoulde profit him that is departed, seeing his re­warde must be according to that which he hath doone, be it good or euil, Fortasse (in­quies) ista rectè quidem a nobis dici: verùm ambigere cuius rei gratia praesul diuinā pre­catur clementiam defuncto, peccatorum ve­niam postulans, & aequalem sanctis ac luci­dissimam sortem: si enim eorum quae in vita gessit bonerū aut malorum a diuina iustitia percipiet praemia, perfecit autē actiones suas in vita ista defūctus, quaenā hūc oratio prae­sulis ad aliam praeter illam quā meruit vitae hic actae respondentē transferet requiem. A little after he answeareth this doubt in these wordes. Quaenam verò de huiusmodi prece, quam super defuncto peragit praesul, ex diuinis ducibus nostris traditio peruenit ad nos, operaepretium est vt dicamus, Vene­randus antistes, vt scriptura ait interpres est iudiciorum diuinorum, angelus enim domini omnipotentis est: didicit igitur de scripturis [Page] diuinitus traditis, vt hi qui piè vixerunt lucidissima diuináque vita pro merito ab [...]e­quissimis lancibus redditur, non recordante diuina bonitate per summam clementiam maculas, quae illis ex humana infirmi­tate adhaeserūt. Ista quidē nouit pōtifex pro­missa a sanctis eloquiis, petit autem ea fieri donarique eisquipie vixerunt praemia sacra, simul quoque seipsum ad imitationes Dei benignus formans, & aliorum dona, quasi proprias expetens gratias, ne{que} ignorans veras repromissiones futuras, praesentibus etiam apertè demonstrat quod quae ab eo sa­cro iure postulantur, omnino illi consequētur qui in vita diuina consūmati sunt. Propha­nis vita functis ista non precatur, quia & in­digne orans nou exaudiretur. His an­swere in somme is this, That because the minister is the interpreter of the iudge­mentes of God, and knoweth that remis­sion of sinnes and euerlasting life is promi­sed vnto them that haue liued godly, there­fore he praieth for them imitating ther­in the goodnesse of God, requiring other men their giftes as his owne graces: and declaring vnto them that be present that those thinges which he praied for shal hap­pen [Page] vnto all them whose death shall follow a godly life. And therefore he prayeth not to haue these thinges graunted vnto com­mon and prophane men, because he should not be heard for them. The question being for what cause the minister shal pray thus, seeing the dead is to receiue according as he hath [...]oone in his life: the minister is cleered albeit there come no gaine vnto the dead thereby, (for there is no mencion of anie profit redounding vnto him) first because he is the messenger of the Lord, the Interpreter of his iudgementes, and therefore in that his praier doeth make de­claration of the deade his condition, and as it were put him in possession of the promi­ses made to the faithful, which he knoweth cannot but be perfourmed. And Secon­darily, because he doeth therein imitate the goodnesse of God, requiring other their gifts as his own graces, & last of all because he declareth thereby vnto those y^t be present, what is the rewarde of a god­ly life. He standeth much vpon the first cause of his prayer, that it putteth the deade as it were in possession of life, and al­ledgeth [Page] authoritie for the ministers, that they haue speciall giftes geuen them to discerne whose sinnes be forgiuen, & whose are retained, and accordingly in declara­tion thereof to forgiue or retaine, to admit vnto life or to exclude, according as hee doeth declare in those wordes: Sic profectò ille, omnis{que} illi similis praesul, iuxta paterna­arum iustificationum sibi indultas reuelati­ones, declarando & traducendo deo charos admittit & excludit impios. This me­morial of y^e dead that Dionysius alloweth of, as receiued from the Apostles: resteth in the minister alone, because he hath spe­cial reuelation and discretion to discerne the good from the bad. There is no al­lowance here for other men to praie for the dead, who haue not that discretion to discerne betweene the godly and the wic­ked. Mo [...]uer Dionysiu [...] his praier is an admission of the [...]de into heauen: yours, are emissions or deliuerances out of Purgatorie: they are admitted onely to the benfite of his prayer, whom by speci­all knowledge he is assured to be the elect of God: I neuer hearde of anie refused a­mōg you, who had so much mony as would [Page] pay for a Dirige or a Masse of Requiem. By Dionysius his prayer, they are on the first day admitted into heauen: but for any helpe that wee can learne they haue by your praiers, a mā may come many a yeere after all your first daies worke, & yet if we will beleeue you, finde them in Purgatory. By Dionysius his doctrine we can neuer learne y^t the people may pray for the dead, nor that the minister his praier addeth any thing to the state of the dead, but is on­ly a declaration of the Lord his mercie to­wardes his, and as it were an admission of them thereunto before men. I hope you will consider aduisedly that the doubt ari­sing about this prayer for them, seeing the man is to be iudged according to that he hath doon in his life: and no benifite being alleaged to redound vnto the dead, but the chiefe defence to consist herein that the mi­nister is a messenger betweene God and man of his iudgmentes, auctorized to pro­noūce according to that speciall knowledg and authoritie that is geuē vnto him: what slender defence you haue from Dionysius. Before I tolde you that it was not neces­sarie to followe you thus farre, seeing you [Page] had no helpe from the Apostles their doc­trine, and therefore you are not within the succession of their doctrine, for you are neuer able to proue that they taught any such doctrine of prayer for the dead as you hold. You see nowe that as you haue not succeded them, no more haue you succeeded Dionisius in your memoriall for the dead.

Let vs see what helpe you haue from Chrysostom, he saith that the memorial of the dead is a tradition of the Apostles, and that it bringeth much profit vnto them. It is true he saith so, and it is as true that the same Chrysostom saith not foure lines be­fore, that it bringeth but litle helpe & profit vnto them, his wordes are these. Procure­mus illis aliquid auxilii, modici quidem: at­tamen inuemus eos. Dionysius in his me­morial of the dead, findeth no helpe for thē, but maketh al the profit thereof to redound vnto the liuinge, and he saith this kinde of memorial was deliuered him from the A­postles. Chrysost. saith it bringeth much helpe vnto them, and he also telleth vs that so it is deliuered to them of his time, vnder the credit of the Apostles their tradition.

What shall we say in this varietie, one be­ing contrary to another, and the same di­uerse from himselfe: but that it is better to harken vnto God than vnto man, to leane vnto the certaintie of his word, than to be tossed this way and that waye after the in­certainty of their opiniōs: saying with the Prophet Isaie: Esay. 8. Shoulde not a people in­quire at their God? to the lawe, to the te­stimony if they speake not according to this word, it is because ther is no light in them. Augustine his prayer for his mo­thers soule (as you say) shall testifie what was receiued as the tradition of the Apo­stles touching the memorial for the dead in his tyme: for I deny not but hee saith that the church had a memorial of them at that tyme. Whatsoeuer it was that hee prayed to haue graunted from the Lorde vnto his mother, hee himselfe confesseth that hee did beleue his mother had obteined it before his prayer. These are his wordes in that same place. Credo iam feceris quod te rogo, sed voluntaria mea approba Domine. I be­leue that thou hast already performed that which I desire of thee, but allowe my good [Page] wil Lord. This prayer yeldeth no testi­mony of any satisfaction for her sinnes, that otherwyse shee coulde not haue bene deli­uered frō: but contrariwise confesseth, that shee was deliuered from them before his prayer. This prayer acknowlegeth no ne­cessity of duety layed vpon him by the lawe of God, but that it was onely the franck & voluntary gift of a man that wished well vnto her. And in very deed it is true that he saith it was volūtary, for he had no paterne or example in the canonicall Scriptures, neither in the olde nor yet in the new testa­ment to leade him therunto. But these and such like are the frutes of natural affection and good intentes (as wee cal them) when they wander without the warrant of the word. By this that ha [...]h bene said, you may cleerly see that in your Doctrine of prayer for the dead, you neither succede the Apo­stles who neuer taught any such Doctrine: neither yet are ye [...]ou [...]de faithfull deliue­rers of that, which some of the auncient fa­thers in the Churche haue left in writing touchinge this matter, as the practise of their tyme, howsoeuer degeneratinge [Page] and declining from the sincerity of the A­postles Doctrine. If building of Chur­ches, erecting of Altares, and offering sacrifices therevpon, bee sure tokens and argumentes of the true faith of Christ, as you woulde prooue out of Chrysostome: then the heathen men haue sure markes and tokens of the faith of Christ. For they builde Churches, erect altares, and offer sacrifices therevpon, then the superstiti­ous people of all tymes haue geuen foorth sure argumentes of the true faith of Christ, for they haue alwayes abounded in these & such like outwarde thinges, being contēt to worke their discharge as they thought, from the renouncinge of themselues and from true obediēce: by the departing from some outwarde commoditie whereof they had sufficient store, notwithstanding that porcion was gone.Miche. 6. The Prophet Micheas speaking in their person, declareth y^t they were ready to offer thousandes of rammes in sacrifice, and riuers of oile vnto the lord: but hee telleth them that to doe that which the Lorde requireth of them, is preferred aboue al outwarde thinges.

Nay hee setteth that which the Lord wil­leth & requireth in his word, against those, to reproue them as things which he neuer required, when true obedience to his word was denied. And therefore when he hath spoken in their person as if they were of al men most deuoute and Religious, not see­minge to deny any thing of theirs vnto the Lord, in this manner and forme of words: wil the Lord be pleased with thousands of rammes or with x. thousand riuers of oile? as if he shoulde haue that waye what­soeuer hee woulde: hee answeareth as if all this were nothing of that which the Lord requireth, saying: He hath shewed thee o mā what is good, & what the lord requi­reth of thee &c. I tould you before that I founde none of those glisteringe workes in that register, which the holy Ghost hath re­serued for all ages wherein to see & behold the best men and their workes. And nowe I tel you more, that the godly haue com­playned, that the true Church of God was in the greatest decay & most ruinouse, when the material Churche was most glistering [Page] and sumptuous, and that they had the least care of that, when they bestowed most care and cost vpon the other.Hieron. ad Ne­pot. de vita cle­ricorum. Hierome cōplay­neth of this in his tyme saying. Multi aedi­ficant parietes, & columnas Ecclesiae sub­struunt, marmor a nitent, auro splendent la­quearia, gemmis altare distinguitur, at mi­nistrorum Christi nulla electio est. Many build the walles & pillers of the church, the marble shineth, the beames glister with gould, the altare is pointed & deuided with precious stones, but there is no choise of the Ministers. If euer this complaint of Ierome was verified, it was in the tyme of Popery. For there was no want of beawty in the material temple, but the true temple was suffered to fall in to vtter decaye, and how coulde it bee otherwyse for there was no choise of the Ministers, who where to build the true churche of God, euery man was thought sufficiently able, whoe coulde read the Masse booke, albeit he vnderstode neuer a worde thereof.

My chiefe purpose is to geue you to vnderstande, that when the materiall [Page] churche hath bene in greatest beawty, the godly and learned haue complayned, that men whoe are the true and liuing churche, haue bene the furthest from the true know­ledge & feare of God. Which could not be otherwise, when those who were to finishe that worke, were altogither ignorant, and no choise made of thē, but (as we say) tagge and ragge admitted therunto without any exception taken either against learning or life. And therefore you may cleerly see by Hierome his complaint, that building of Churches and Altars, are not the surest notes of the faith of Christ, because those haue bene builded, whē there haue bin such ignorant & lewde Ministers, that it coulde not be otherwyse, but that true faith and re­ligion must goe to ruine and decay. Wee may plainly see and perceiue, that mē haue pleased themselues so in those kinde of workes: that the godly haue perceiued a decaye of the greatest dueties, either to bee supported by the glistring shewe therof, or else not to be espied & rightly examined. And the trueth is so, that they are in very deede so glistring to the sight of a naturall [Page] man, as they doe easly cary him from the true sight and estimation of better things, to esteeme of them more basely thā they do deserue, and of the other more lightly thā there is any iust cause. And in verie deede, wee neuer haue sene or read that they haue bene in great credit, but that thervpō hath growne a smal accompt of true Christian workes and of the best deedes. In so much that the learned fathers haue debated the matter, whither that to mainteine and re­lieue poore men in their necessitie (who are the liuinge temple) were not as accepta­ble a worke to God, as to build a material temple of stone.Eusebius de mor­te Hieron. Quod templum Deo cha­rius quàm homo? templum Dei vos estis (in­quit Apostolus:) cùm pauperi manū tribuis, cùm viro in suis necessitatibus subuenis, cū errantem ad viam rectam reducis. O quàm admirabile & Deo gratum templum aedifi­ [...]asti! What Church is dearer to god then man? you are the temple of god (saith the a­postle,) when thou geuest thy helping hand to a poore man, whē thou doest succor a mā in his necessitie, when thou bringest him [Page] that is in errour into the trueth, o how wō­derful is that churche, and how acceptable vnto god which thou hast builded, saith Eu­sebius. If that tyme had not doted so greatly in the opiniō of those glistering works, that therevpon had growen the neglect of thother, what needeth such extollinge of mercy towarde the poore, as to call it a church wonderful in the sight of God? or what meaneth he to restraine the excellēcy & acceptation of it in this manner, [howe wonderfull and acceptable a churche is it vnto God,] if this his speach cary not in it a secrete reproufe and correction of the iudgment of flesh and blood touching those outwarde glisteringe workes, and a mea­ning to induce them to make more accōpt of the other? It is geuen forth of the godly, that they were mercifull men and well re­ported of in their tymes, but as for many of those, whoe haue left such glisteringe workes behinde them, they haue bene bet­ter reported of by the ages whoe neuer knewe them, than euer they were in their owne tyme, for their dealinges while they liued haue had litle mercy in them toward [Page] the poore. By all likelyhoode they were of opinion, that that which they purposed to doe at their death should make amendes for all. That we may ioyne in this con­tention for good workes, set foorth your best men and best woorkes. Let there be on your part, a greate number that haue builded Churches, Hospitalles, and Col­ledges, departing liberally from a great portion of their goods to such endes & purposes: those are of your best sort, for all of you doe not leaue suche fruites be­hinde: And we will set against these an infinite number of men, who in the cause of God his truth, to get glorie vnto him, and to confirme their bretherē in the Gos­pel, haue departed not from a portion of their goods and landes: but from all the comfortes & commodities of this life, yea & frō life it selfe. Now let iudgmēt proceed whether of these be more excellēt workes. Irenaeus affirmeth that this woork [of con­firming the Gospel with our blood] is the principal & chiefe effect and fruite of loue.Iren. lib. 4. ca. [...]3. He maketh it a speciall noate to discerne the Church by, that it sendeth multitudes [Page] of Martyrs vnto God, wheras Sathan al­beit he hath now & thā his martyrs as wel as Christ, yet they are but a fewe, nothing compatable in nūber & multitude with the rest: There is in the church saith Irenaeus, Precipuū dilectionis munus, quod est praetio­sius quàm agnitio, gloriosius quā prophetia, omnibus reliquis charismatibus superemi­nens: quapropter ecclesia omni in loco ob eā quam habet erga deum dilectionem, multi­tudinem martyrum omni tēpore praemittit ad patrem. He calleth martyrdom the chief effect of loue passing other gifts, & because y^e churche hath this, he affirmeth y^t there­fore she sendeth multitudes of martyres at al times vnto the father, proceding to de­clare that albeit sathā labour to haue that in shew w^t Christ hath in truth, yet he com­meth infinitly short of y^e nūber & multitude that standeth to death in Christ his cause. As your accusation of our want of good works, is the same that hath bin made by aunciēt heretikes against y^e church of god in former times: so in this our answer we are nothing diuerse but altogither agree­ing with that which Augustine speaketh for the purgation of the Church in his time. His woords are these. Quid tanti er­ [...]oris longa defensione implicamini? fruges [Page] in agro, frumenta in area quaerite: August. de mori­bus eccles. cathol. lib. 1. cap. 35. appare­bunt facilè seseque offerent ipsa quaerenti­bus: quid nimis in purgamenta oculos in­tenditis? quid ab opimi horti vbertate im­peritos homines sepium asperitate terretis? Est certus aditus quāuis paucioribus notus, quo possit intrari, qùem vos aut esse non cre­ditis, aut inuenire nō vultis. Sunt in Eccle­sia Catholica innumerabiles fideles, qui hoc mundo non vtantur, sunt qui vtan­tur tanquam non vtentes, vt ab Apostolo dicitur, quod illis temporibus iam probatum est quibus ad idolorum cultum Christiani cogebantur. Quot enim tunc patres famili­as rusticani, quot negatiatores, quot mili­ta res, quot primates vrbium suarum, quot deni{que} senatores vtriusque sexus haec omnia vana & temporalia reliquentes, quibus vti­que quamuis vterentur non detinebantur mortem pro salubri fide ac religione subie­runt demonstrauerunt{que} infidelibus a se po­tius illa omnia quem se ab eis esse possessos. August. willeth them to looke at the corne & to let the chaffe alone, to looke ouer the hedge that is stopped and stuffed with thornes, vnto the field that is ful of frute & good Corne, he blameth thē for being too much geuen to behold their conuersation [Page] beside the name, had nothing else of chri­stianity: whom he compareth to chaffe and thornes. He telleth them that albeit this fielde of the Lordes be hedged about with thornes, & many euill men and of wicked conuersation make profession to be of that number: yet for all that there is an entry into it, although it be knowen onely vnto a fewe: which (saith he) either you beleeue not, or els wil not finde. He proceedeth to open vnto them this entry, whereby they may passe to take a viewe of the Lord his fruiteful fielde, leading them to the times of persecution, when so manie of al estates and degrees, declared that they vsed the world as if they vsed it not, by leauing all their goods and their life it selfe for the cause of the Gospel. Hee professeth that this entrance to take a vewe of the Lorde his haruest, is knowen to fewe. I pray you, obserue that in Augustine, for the way that you make to leade vs to discerne of the Church, is knowen to all, euen to wic­ked men, it is so glorious and glistering. I would we had not cause to say vnto you with Augustine: Fruges in agro, frumenta [Page] in area querite, quid nimis in purgamenta oculos intenditis? Seeke for good corne in the barne, why doe you looke ouermuch v­pon the chaffe? Now I am to craue of you, that you woulde diligētly cōsider, whether there be not iust cause to speake against this rotten fruite that you bring foorth, and whither you be that good tree that is nourished with the sappe of God his word and bringeth foorth fruite like vnto that, that is left vs as a patterne in the Kalen­der of christian woorkes.

Answeare.

YOu say there is a continuall succes­sion as well of Bishoppes as of doc­trine in the church, from the Apostles time vnto this. For proofe of your succession as well of Bishoppes as doctrine. You al­leage a place out of the Actes cap. 20. ver. 28. Constituit vos spiritus sanctus Episco­pos regere ecclesiam Dei, quam acquisi­vit sanguin [...] suo. Heere is not [Page] one word for succession either of Bishops or Doctrine, no not one word that can bee wrong that way, and I hope you doe re­member that to haue bene your purpose to prooue. These woordes that you haue al­leaged, signifie thus much in our tongue: The holy Ghoste hath appointed you Bi­shops, to gouerne the church of god, which he hath purchased with his bloode. What I pray you is here to bee gathered for con­tinuall succession? In this place the Apo­stle telleth the Bishoppes of Ephesus that their charg is great, to be betrusted with those whom the Lord hath purchased with no lesse price than his bloode: But as for succession of Doctrine and Bishops, that it shalbe continuall, there is not one worde that soundeth that way. And therefore I pray you euen as you tender your owne sal­uatiō, that you would not suffer your selues to be carried away with so weake groūds. But I pray you seeinge this witnesse co­meth from heauen, let vs heare more of him. And good reason it is that he shoulde be hearde at large, for he is the onely wit­nesse that you bringe from aboue, to testifie [Page] with you for your doctrine that it is Apo­stolicall. I pray you read the two verses followinge this, which you haue alledged. You shall finde it there written thus. Ego enim, noui hoc, quod ingressuri sunt post dis­cessum meum lupi graues in vos, non par­centes gregi: & ex vobis ipsis exorientur viri loquentes peruersa, vt abducant disci­pulos post se. Doe you not see that he fore­warneth the Bishops of Ephesus to looke wel to themselues, and to their charges, because he knew that after his departure woolues would enter vpon the flocke, and that out of themselues woulde arise men speaking peruerse thinges to drawe disci­ples after them. Heere is a prophecy that Woolues shal shortly enter into the flock: Nay which more is, there is heere a fore­telling that some of themselues shall dege­nerat into woolues. This authoritie there­fore that foretelleth y^e entring in of woolfs, & prophesieth of the degenerating of some of themselues into woolues, is a weake ground to builde succession vpon, & to per­swade vs that wee ought to imbrace that doctrine, w^t can bring for it only succession of good persons or places. If you shal well [Page] weigh that place, you shal finde that it is not possible to speake more directly a­gainst succession then that place doeth.

Augustine vpon the Psalme 44. affir­meth that the church may not take her self to be forsaken because she seeth not Peter & Paule, but he prooueth not, neither spea­keth so much as one word for a continuall succession of Bishops, to continewe vnto the end of the world as a marke of the true church, whoe are to deliuer their places or­derly, and their doctrine truly without any corruption vnto others. Peraduenture you thinke that because Augustin interpreteth this place of scripture so, that he will haue the childrē to signifie bishops, & then saith in the plural nomber that they shal remem­ber thy name for euer: that therefore there must be a continual succession of Bishops. This error groweth vpon the ignoraūce of the Hebrew tongue: for ther the berbe is in the singular nōber, & so it is in the trāslatiō of the Septuaginta. It is likewise so inter­preted by Hierom, who had more skill in the Hebrew tongue then Augustine had, and referred not vnto Bishoppes but vnto [Page] the Churche, that shee shall remember the name of the Lord for euer.Hieron. ad princip. virgin. His wordes are these: Regina quae steterat a dexteris tuis in vestitu deaurato, & iussa fuerat obliuisci populi & domus patris sui, iterum illi dictum erat, pro patribus tuis nati sunt tibi filij, con­stitues eos principes super omnem terram: in­telligens quanta sit decoranda gloria, & qui­bus praemijs subleuanda, conuertit ad spon­sum voces suas: & pollicetur recordaturam se semper nominis sponsi, in omni generatione & generatione. You may heare howe Ie­rome saith it is the Churche that shal re­member the name of the lord for euer, and not as you woulde haue it the Bishoppes onely.

That the Churche receiueth foure Gos­pelles and no moe, that it geueth the name of Person & trinity vnto God, not because the scripture expresly directeth vs in these thinges, but because it doeth not speake a­gainst then (as you say) and because it is so deliuered vnto vs from the Apostles: doeth nothing at all prooue, that the groundes of faith & religion which the apostles taught, shall remaine vnto the ende of the worlde [Page] in the safe custody of Bishops: & that they shall truely deliuer thē ouer to their succes­sours, so as we may safely sticke to succes­sion as a true note of the Churche. I doe meruaile that you doe so greatly forget your selfe and the matter that you haue ta­ken in hand to proue. Is this the doctrine of the Apostles touching saluation, or their tradition? your purpose is to prooue that the doctrine of the Apostles left in writing cōcerning the grounds of faith & Religiō, is deliuered frō Bishop to Bishop in y^e true sense & vnderstāding therof, by a perpetual succession for the benefite of the Churche. Therfore as before you coulde finde no suc­cession of person, so here you faile in finding succession of doctrine. If al that is brought be true, yet is nothing proued but a succes­sion of some tradition. For there is not one word spoken for the reseruing of the scrip­tures vnto the church in the true sense and vnderstāding therof. Nowe for the things themselues, the Churche of God by the word tryeth true teachers from false Pro­phetes, & true Doctrine from counterfaite and corrupt. And so are we exhorted to doe, [Page] And albeit the scripture hath not expresly set downe the very woords of Trinity and person, yet hath it set downe al that trueth which is conteined in these woords, wher­by the church was directed to make choise of such woordes, for the better explaning of matters in controuersy. It appeareth by Augustine that the Churche had not onely the scriptures not speaking against the name of Trinity, but leading them to to vse that name. His woordes are these. Nobis autem sufficiat scire de Trinitate, August. de temp. sermo. 190. quod Dominus exponere dignatus est: quod ergo dicit ad Apostolos: ite, & baptizate omnes gentes, in nomine patris, & filij, & spiritus Sancti, Tria nomina audio, & vnū dicitur nomen, non enim dixit in nominibus, sed in nomine. You heare Augustine his iudgement that touching the Trinity it is sufficient for vs to hold that which the lord himself hath declared therin.

The place which you doe alledge out of Irenaeus maketh greatly against you,Iren. lib. 4. ca. 64 and your Churche, and so wil it appeare vnto any indifferent reader. But you haue not [Page] dealt simply herein, for ye haue kept backe that w^t bewrayeth your cause, breaking of the sentence, where ther was no manner of point, no not so much as a comma. I will set downe the whole vnto you, and let your self be your owne iudge, whether you or whosoeuer did deliuer it vnto you, hath dealt well and simply herein. Agnitio vera est Apostolorum Doctrina, & antiquus Ec­clesiae status in vniuerso mundo & characte­re corporis Christi, secundùm successiones Episcoporū, quibus illi eam quae in vnoquo­que loco est Ecclesiam tradiderunt, quae peruenit ad nos vsque custodita sine fictione, scripturarum tractatione plenissima, neque ablationem recipieus lectio sine falsatione, & secundum Scripturas expositio legitima & diligens, & sine periculo, & sine blasphe­mia & praecipuum dilectionis munus quod est preciosius quam agnitio, gloriosius autem quàm Prophetia, omnibus autem reliquis Charismatibus supereminens. Quapropter Ecclesia omni in loco ob eam quam habet erga Deum dilectionem multitudinem mar­tyrum in omni tempore praemittit ad Pa­trem.

Hee placeth true knowledge in the Apo­stles doctrine, and in the olde state of the Churche, as knowledge was geuen therof by those Bishops, to whome the Apostles committed the Churches, that were then in the tyme of Irenaeus in any place. All the succession that heere is mencioned, is re­streyned vnto those Bishoppes who weare immediatly after the Apostles, at whose hands they receiued those Churches. Now that this knowledge came truely to him & his time from those Bishops: this induceth him to thinke so, because they receiued frō them, Scripturarum tractationem plenissi­mam: A plentiful treatise of the Scrip­tures, without suspiciō of forgery or falsi­fying. Secondly because they receiued frō them (as hee saith) Expositiones legitimas secundum scripturas, & sine periculo, & sine blasphemia: Diligent and lawfull commē­taries & expositions agreable to the scrip­tures, not conteyninge any blasphemy or errour: Whereas Heretikes will not haue their expositions measured by scriptures, but scriptures measured by their exposi­tions & interpretations of them: affirming [Page] that they onely haue the true sence therof because they are the Church that cannot erre: Thirdly because there was in that auncient state of the Churche to be seene, Praecipuum dilectionis munus: The grea­test fruite of loue euen to offer themselues vnto martyrdome in great numbers and multitudes, by reason of that loue which they did beare vnto God and his Gospel: Multitudinem enim martyrū praemittit ad Deum patrem. If this testimonie of Ire­naeus had holpen you, it shoulde not haue mencioned those Bishops onely to whom the Apostles deliuered the Churches, but spoken of an orderly succession of them to continue foreuer without anie rstrainte, Neither should he haue spoken so spating­ly of the matter, as to haue saide it came safe to their handes, who were so neere the Apostles time by them who succeeded the Apostles: but without anie suspicion of alteration, he should haue geuen it foorth as a matter appointed and established, whereby to keepe doctrine safe vnto the Church for euer. And last of all he should haue suppressed the notes of their faithful­nes, [Page] consisting in the reseruing of the scrip­tures without forgery or falsefiyng: and in warranting their expositiōs by scriptures: & in hauing to be seene the principal effect of loue: w^t is multitudes of martyrs dying for the Gospel, and haue sent vs only vnto succession, charging vs to receiue that w^t we shal finde obserued there, without any further question, because succession was appointed to bee an infallible note of the Churche in al tymes, which is the piller of trueth. You see he dealeth farre otherwise. If wee had receiued from your Bishops a diligent examination of your writings by the scriptures, (& that ye had not left them & gone to fathers, councels, & traditions, charging vs to sticke vnto succession) with that other note which he calleth the princi­pal effect of loue: than might we haue said with Irenaeus, Agnitio vera peruenit vs{que} ad nos. As this place flatly condemneth your Churche, where there is neither the confirming of your writings & preachings by scriptures, neyther yet that other note of plentifull witnessing to the trueth by death and martyrdome, so doeth it strongly establishe ours, and iustifie it to haue true [Page] knowledge in it, and to bee agreable to the ancient estate of the churche, because those three notes that hee speaketh of are appa­rantly to be seene in our churches. For we haue the scriptures plentifully set foorth, we warrant our expositions by scriptures: & we haue & doe sende daily multitudes of martyrs vnto the father, whoe testifie his trueth vnto the world, & seale vp the assu­rance therof with their blood. Your other place out of Irenaeus doth help your cause no more then the former. Nay the circū­stāces of the place doe vtterly ouerthrowe the meaninge that you would make of it. Which that it may plainly appeare I wil set downe vnto you togither with your place, those wordes also that goe in order and next before & after it.Iren. aduersus haereses Valenti. lib. 4. cap. 4 [...]. Intelligentes ful­gebunt quemadmodum claritas firmamēti, & a multis iustis sicut stellae in secula. Et ad­huc quēadmodum ignur ostēdimus siquis le­gat scripturas. Etenim dominus sic disseruit discipulis post resurrectionē suam a mortuis, & ex ipsis scripturis ostēdēs eis quoniā opor­tebat pati Christum & intrare gloriā suā, & in nomine eius remissionem peccatorum [Page] praedicari in toto mundo, & erit consumma­tus discipulus & similis patrifamilas, qui de thesauro suo profert noua & vetera. Qua­propter eis qui in ecclesia sunt presbiteris ob audire oportet, qui successionem habent ab Apostolis sicut ostendimus, qui cum Episco­patus successione charissima veritatis cer­tum, secundum placitum patris acceperunt. Reliquos verò qui absistunt a principali suc­cessione, quocunque loco colligantur suspe­ctos habere, vel quasi haereticos & malae sen­tentiae, vel quasi scindentes & elatos & sibi placentes, aut rursus vt hypocritas questus gratia & vanae gloriae hoc operantes. Omnes autem hi decedūt a veritate, et haeretici qui­dē alienum ignem afferentes ad altare dei, id est alienas doctrinas, a caelesti igne com­burentur, quemadmodum Nadab & Abiu. The matter he speaketh of immediatly be­fore, is to declare what excellencie a man atteineth vnto by the reading and know­ledge of the Scriptures, & y^t our sauiour Christ prooued after his resurrection vnto his disciples out of y^e scriptures, that christ ought to suffer and so enter into his glorie: and thereunto addeth that he is a good di­sciple [Page] & like vnto y^e good man of the house, who bringeth out of his treasure prouision newe and olde: Immediatly hereupon he bringeth in that sentēce which you alleage wherefore we must obey those Bishoppes that are in the Church, who togither with the succession of their bishoprickes, haue receiued the sure gift of trueth, according to the good will of the father. There is not secundùm impositionē manuum, as you woulde willingly gather. All his speach before was of the trueth and scriptures of God, this that you haue alleaged begin­neth with the note of illation or inferring [Quapropter] wherfore, &c. And the thing brought in therevpon is, that those Bi­shops ought to be obeied, who haue recei­ued the grace & gift of trueth according to the good pleasure of the father: All other which haue not this principal successiō of truth, he maketh either heretikes, schisma­tiques, or hypocrites, affirming that they fall from the trueth which before he had called the principall succession. And con­tinuing stil in the same matter he affirmeth that those who bring strange fire, that is [Page] (as hee interpreteth it) straung doctrine, shalbe burnt w^t heauenly fire as was Na­dab & Abiu. So that y^e whole chapter rū­neth vpon the word of god & true doctrine, which he calleth the principall succession, without the which he would haue vs to sus­pect any bishop what succession soeuer he had of place. And if al this can not satisfie you, that his meaninge is to make no ac­compt of succession of person & place, whē the principall succession of trueth is wan­ting: turne vnto the next chapter, wher the same matter is continued, & there you shal find these words. Ab omnibus igitur talibus absistere oportet, adhaerere vero his, qui & Apostolorum (sicut praediximus) doctrinā custodiunt et cum presbyterij ordine sermo­nē sanum & conuersationē sine offensa prae­stāt, ad informationē & correctionē reliquo­rū. Where you may plainely see what suc­cession he spoke of before, euen the successiō of the Apostles doctrine. Al the patching & piecing in the world, can neuer make hole this breach that Irenaeus hath made into your successiō of persons, & you may clearly vnderstād what cost & paines you haue be­stowed in vaine, in labouring to bring in [Page] your sacrament of orders & imposition of hands, as being vnderstood by that, which he calleth the gift or grace of trueth. If the word [trueth] can not moue you, the circū­stāces (if ye wil not bee willingly blinded) cā not but perswade you. I doe therfore w^t your owne authoritie reply against you, that al those are to bee suspected, what suc­cessiō soeuer they bring of person or place, that bring not w^t thē the principal successiō, w^t is the doctrine of the Apostles. If true doctrine went alwaies with succession of bishops, what nedeth Iren. to speake of any diuorse betweene thē? nay, what nedeth hee to wil vs to looke vnto the trueth making the principal successiō, y^t as for your neigh­bours that stād in the margēt, if your wea­pon were answerable to your good will, I would tell them, that you haue bid battaile vnto them: But in as much as I see you fal downe in the fielde, your owne weapon taken out of your hand, & your self woūded withal, I haue more pitty of you, thā of thē: & therfore there shal no beacō burne (by my cōsent) to warne any to beware of warre frō you: vntill I see you recouered of som of those dāgerous woūds, that you haue taken already.

From Irenaeus you passe to Tertullian, with whom it will fall out, that you shall finde as little helpe for your purpose, as you haue had before from Irenaeus. And because you suppresse alwaies that that maketh against you: I am here inforced, as before, to set downe that which imme­diatly goeth before, and also followe the woordes by you alleaged.Tertul. de prae­scrip. aduersus. haereticos. Caeterùm si quae audent interserere se etati Apostolicae vt ideo videātur ab Apostolis traditae, quia sub Apostolis fuerunt: possumus dicere, Edant ergo origines ecclesiarum suarum: euoluant ordinem episcoporum suorum, ita per suc­cessiones ab initio decurrentem, vt primus ille episcopus aliquē ex apostolis vel Aposto­licis viris, qui tamen cum Apostolis perse­uerauerit habuerit authorem & anteces­sorem. Hoc enim modo ecclesiae Apostolicae census suos deferunt, sicut Smyrnaeorū ec­clesia habēs Policarpum ab Ioanne colloca­tum refert, sicut Romanorum, Clementem a Petro ordinatum edit, proinde vtique & cae­terae exhibēt, quos ab Apostolis in episcopatu cōstitutos Apostolici seminis traduces habe­ant. Confingant tale aliquid haeretici.

Quid enim illis post blasphemiam illicitum est? Sed & si confinxerint, nihil promoue­bunt. Ipsa enim doctrina eorum cum Apo­stolica comparata, ex diuersitate & contra­rietate sua pronunciabit, ne{que} Apostoli ali­cuius Autoris esse, ne{que} Apostolici. Quia sicut Apostoli nō diuersa inter se docuissent, ita & Apostolici non contraria Apostolis ae­didissent, nisi illi qui ab Apostolis desciuerūt, & aliter praedicauerunt. Ad hanc itaque formam prouocabuntur ab illis Ecclesiis, quae licet nullum ex Apostolis vel apostoli­cis autorē suum proferāt, vt multò posterio­res: quae deni{que} quotidie instituuntur: tamen in eadem fide conspirantes, non minùs apo­stolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate do­ctrinae. Ita omnes haereses ad vtram{que} for­mam à nostris Ecclesiis prouocatae, probent se quaqua putant Apostolicas. If any would therfore be accompted Apostolicall chur­ches, because they liued vnder the apo­stels, & in their time: let such churches shew what Apostle did first founde theirs (saith Tertull.) Wee are not in theire tyme, nei­ther claime wee priuiledge in any such re­spect: but marke what followeth: If they [Page] could forge such a succession (saith hee) be­like then it is not altogither vnpossible so to doe, yet would it helpe them nothing, because the Apostles doctrine compared with theirs, would bewray it not to bee the Apostles nor Apostolical. You haue cause therefore to bee ashamed euer hereafter, to make successiō of bishops a necessary note of the church, w^t by Tertull. his iudgement is subiect to forgery, & if it were not, yet could not proue any ting at al (as he saith) when the doctrine of the Apostles shallbe found diuerse and disagreeing from theirs. You may see that he wil haue the Apostles doctrine, to confute & ouerthrowe that suc­cession which vpholdeth any doctrine con­trary or diuerse from theirs. And consider this one thing wel I pray you, that he saith Heretikes are to be brought to the triall of the Apostles doctrine, by those Churches which albeit they bring none of the Apo­stles nor Apostolicall men for theire Au­thors and first founders (as being a long tyme after them) yet are neuer a whit the lesse to be accōpted Apostolicall, by reason [Page] of their kindred & alliaūce w^t the Apostles doctrine. He affirmeth plainely and in ex­presse woordes, that the churches which were long after the Apostles tyme, are to be tried whether they be apostolical or no, by that Doctrine which the Apostles de­liuered: But as for these Churches that were next vnto the Apostles time, they dare be boulde (saith hee) to prouoke Here­tikes ioyntly to the triall of succession as wel of person, as of doctrine. Succession therfore of Bishops is (by Tertullian his iudgement) no triall of Churches at this time, his authoritie hath vtterly euerthrowē that holde of yours. Marke wel the words for they are Tertullian his woordes and not myne. Ad hanc ita{que} formam prouoca­buntur ab illis Ecclesiis, quae licet nullum ex apostolis vel Apostolicis viris authorē suum proferunt, vt multò posteriores, quae deni{que} quotidie instituuntur, tamen in eadem fide conspirantes, non minùs Apostolicae depu­tantur pro consanguinitate Doctrinae.

From this place of Tertullian wee haue a playne Doctrine, that whatsoeuer the [Page] fathers haue spoke for succession of Bi­shops, as a marke to make knowne the true church: by the same is to be restreined vnto those tymes that were nere vnto the Apostles. For of other churches hee saith, albeit they bring none of the Apostles or Apostolical men for there authours, as be­ing long after them: neuerthelesse agree­ing with them in faith and Doctrine, they are to be accompted Apostolical as well as the other, because of their alliance by Doctryne. The very woordes that imme­diatly goe before these which you haue al­leaged, do put the matter out of doubt, that this triall of succession is onely ment for such Churches as were nere the Apostles time. His woordes are these: Caeterùm si quae audent interserere se aetati Apostolicae, vt ideo videantur ab Apostolis traditae, quia sub Apostolis fuerunt, possimus dicere: Edāt ergo origines Ecclesiarum suarum, euoluant ordinem Episcoperum suorum, &c. But if any dare intrude themselues into the Apo­stles tyme, that they should be accompted Apostolicall, because they were vnder the Apostles: we may say let those then shew [Page] the original of their Churches, let them re­cite the order and succession of their Bi­shoppes. I hope nowe Syr that you doe plainely see, what little helpe you haue frō these authorities that are alledged by you: & that you doe wel consider howe vnfaith­fully they haue bene aduouched, what cut­ting and paringe you haue made of them, and howe that ther is not one of your wit­nesses brought to prooue your Churche to be Apostolical, if you had suffered him to tell out his tale, and not stopped his mouth in the middest of his speach: but woulde haue vtterly ouerthrowne your cause, and established ours which you labour to ouer­throwe. And therefore I doe beseech you in the feare of God to looke well vnto it. Peruse the places againe, consider better of them, and marke the iudgements of god vpon you & your cause, that your very wit­nesses shoulde be wray you, euen those that you deliberatly & of purpose haue picked out to speake for your purgation. If I might haue prescribed those fathers what to say against your cause, and for ours: I coulde haue deuised no better matter than [Page] they haue vttered, euē in the places by you alleaged. Irenaeus saith plainely that the trueth hath discended from the Apostles to his tyme without forgery: because the scriptures were faithfully deliuered vnto them: and because all their commentaries and expositions were warraunted by the Scriptures: You doe not warrant your expositions by Scriptures, but contrary­wyse will haue the Scriptures to haue warrant from your expositions: for you must geue the sense and meaninge thereof, because it is of and in it selfe, as you saye afterward, Mortua vox, a dead word.

Hee saith in the other place, that those Bishoppes, that depart from the princi­pall succession of true doctrine, whatsoe­uer they haue to say for their succession of person and place, are notwithstanding to bee suspect of Heresy or schisme.

What neede was there to make menci­on of the trueth, as the principall succes­cion, that we shoulde be suspicious of those Bishops, that had no such succession from [Page] the Apostles: if the succession of the trueth be (as you say) kept and reserued in a con­tinuall orderly succession of Bishoppes: if whersoeuer that succession bee of per­sons, the other of Doctrine bee vnsepera­bly bounde thereunto. For if wheresoeuer there be this succession of Bishoppes, ther wee must looke vndoubtedly to haue the trueth, then is that of person, the princi­pal succession, and the other of trueth, but a companion, that wayteth and geueth dayly and dutifully attendance thereupon. If this bee so, then wee are first to inquire after the succession of persons, being assu­red there to finde the trueth: And in deede your proofes such as they be, are wholy al­leaged for succession of person, belike if you coulde finde that, you woulde not greatly passe for finding the trueth. You are con­trarie to Irenaeus herein, who maketh succession of trueth, the principall succes­sion. As for Tertull. hee affirmeth plainly, that the doctrine of the apostles wil cōfute them, whosoeuer shall bring a diuerse doc­trine, albeit they alleage for thē successiō of [Page] persons as you doe from the Apostles: Ip­sa enim inquit doctrina eorum cum Aposto­lica comparata, ex diuersitate & contra­rietate sua pronunciabit, ne{que} Apostoli ali­cuius esse ne{que} Apostolici. Hee affirmeth likewise that the churches who were long after the Apostles tyme, are to trie them­selues Apostolical by their alliance w^t the Apostles in doctrine. Ad hanc ita{que} formā prouocabūtur ab illis Ecclesiis, quae licet nul­lum ex Apostolis vel Apostolicis authorem suum proferunt, vt multò posteriores: tamē in eadem fide conspirantes, non minùs. Apo­stolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate do­ctrinae. You see what helpe we haue for our religiō, out of your strongest houldes. We haue in the scriptures the authenticall let­ters and Epistles of the Apostles, contey­ninge the summe of that Doctrine, which they taught in those Churches that they planted which are rightly called by Ter­tullian the mother Churches. Wee haue the summe of that Doctrine left vs in wryting, which Paule taught at Rome, at Corinth, at Philippos, at Ephesus, and at Thessalonica, where hee founded Chur­ches. [Page] You should first haue warrāted your religiō by that doctrine, & frō thence haue proceeded to let vs vnderstand, how that doctrine hath continued amongst you from time to time. You would beare the worlde in hand, that you deriue your doctrine frō the Apostles and auncient Churches, yet you shunne as rockes all triall by the A­postles and those mother Churches, where their Chaires were placed, and their owne doctrine faithfully vnder their owne hands and seales deliuered. Let vs first see how you doe agree with the Apostles them­selues, and then with those Bishops who haue succeeded them: how with the first & mother Churches, and then with those lat­ter who haue beene planted after them. Let vs see you first knit vnto the heade, and then vnto the members. After your testi­monies and allegations for succession, you adde these wordes: Now ye see that the true and verie Church of Christ is, which hath her succession of Bishops from the Apostles: Wherunto I answer that there is no eye so sharpe of sight, that [Page] cā discerne any such matter, by those proofs that you haue brought: but euery man that hath not his eyes closed vp, may see plain­ly (by that light which your owne witnesse haue geuen vnto this cause) that succession of Bishops is no note nowe in these later tymes whereby to discerne the Churche.

You inferre likwyse vpon such authorities as you haue aduouched, that the ancient state of the Churche through the worlde is the Apostles doctrine. I knowe you can haue no colour for any such collection, vn­lesse you take liberty to chaung and trans­pose Est for &, and & for est, after your pleasure: that whereas Irenaeus saith, Ag­nitio vera est Apostolorum doctrina & an­tiquus Ecclesiae status: You reade: Agnitio vera & Apostolorum doctrina est antiquus Ecclesiae status. As for those printes and markes of the olde state of the Churche, which were in Irenaeus his time, I proued before that they where cleane worne out, and no token of them to bee seene among you: for your expositions are not legitimat by Scriptures, but laid vpon vs by vertue [Page] of the Churche, whereof you stil plead pos­session, howe vniust soeuer your title bee.

You woulde gladly find out of these words. Certum charisma veritatis: The Sacra­ment of orders: which you say is receiued together with their Bishopriks: but the circumstāces of that place make the mat­ter so plaine to be ment of the gift or grace of trueth, which hee calleth the principall succession, as no man that will vouchsafe to reade and compare it with that which goeth before and also followeth it, can pos­sibly bee brought to make a doubt thereof. From your holy orders which you woulde wring out of this place, you proceede I wil not say without order, I am sure with­out any occasion offered to the manner of ordayning Bishoppes, [...]hich you say must be by the laying on of handes of former Bishoppes so ordeined, or otherwise they are not to bee obeyed.

So that you secretly shoote at the mini­stery of the church of Englād, that it is vt­terly vnlawful & not to bee obeyed, because our bishops w^t haue ordeined others, were [Page] not themselues ordeined of your Bishops, that were before them. Doe you say that no man is a lawfull Bishop, but he that is ordeined of another Bishoppe? If that be true thē I dare say and can plainly prooue, that your Bishops are vnlawfull Bishops,Hieron. ad Euagr. Titus. 1. ver. 5.7. and therefore not to be obeyed. For from the beginning (as Hierom testi­fieth) there was no difference in the church betweene a bishoppe and a minister: but afterwarde when schismes grewe to be many and great in the Church, for the sup­pressing thereof one was appointed to be aboue the rest, which had the name of Bi­shoppe proper vnto him, which before was common vnto all, as the Scripture declareth. In those first times therefore of schisme, those Bishoppes must of neces­sitie be ordeined of others then bishoppes: because there were then no bishoppes in the Church, as now we doe speake of thē. And therefore by your owne reason, your owne bishops being as you affirme from the beginning, are illegitimate and not to be obeyed, because they were not ordeined of former Bishoppes: nowe that if they [Page] were not lawfully ordeined thē selues, thē could they not lawfully ordeyned others: for other title then they had them selues they could not geue vnto others. By this de­scriptiō that you haue made of the lawfull ordeining & creating of bishops, y^e whole broode of your bishoppes from the first vn­to the last, standeth illigitimate & plain­ly conuicte of bastardie. We know and are assured by the truth of GOD his woorde, that it is lawfull for ministers of the word, to ordein them who are to labour in the ministerie of the woord: for thus we reade in the Epistle to Timothie. 1. cap. 4. 1. Tim. 4. Ne neglige illud donum quod datum est tibi per prophetiam cum impositione manuum praesbiterij. Now there is no man, howe ignorant soeuer he be of the Scripture, or of the Greek tongue in the which the newe testament was penned, if he haue any skill in the Latine: that wil deriue Presbyte­rium, non à presbyteris, sed ab Episcopis. You may perceiue thē that they were praes­biteri and not Episcopi ministers or elders, and not bishops (as now we speake of Bi­shoppes) that laide handes vpon Timo­thie, [Page] when hee was called to the Mi­nisterie of the woorde. You see therefore that at the ordeyning of Timothie they were presbyteri elders or Ministers of the woorde, which gaue this grace by the imposition of their hands, which you say can not bee geuen but by Bishoppes. Now if presbyteri Ministers of the word, may ordeyne other by impositiō of hands. thē I truste we shal haue you more fauora­ble hereafter to y^e Ministery here in Eng­land. If we haue nothing els to saye for it, yet at the least because they who in these last tymes haue bene the instrumentes of God to reforme Religion, and haue ordei­ned others to serue in the Ministery of the word and Sacramentes, were presbyteri: hauing from your Churche imposition of handes, whereby there is so great grace giuen as you saye.

True it is that imposisition of handes was a consecration and putting a parte of men to serue in the Ministery of the woorde, by attending vpon rea­ding, [Page] exhortation, and doctrine: accor­dinge as the Apostle declareth in this fourth chapter of Timothie: for when hee hath willed Timothie to attend vpon rea­ding, exhortation, and doctrine, forthwith signifying that hee was called thereunto, and that it was his function to the end hee might therby the more bee touched with the matter, hee addeth these wordes: Ne­glect not that gift or function which was committed vnto thee by imposition of handes.

This marke of that vocatiō which doeth consist in attending vpon exhortation and doctrine continued in your Churche, Tan­quam cadauer verae vocationis, as it were a carkas of a true calling: for you attended not vpon the worde setting it foorth truely by exhortation and doctrine, which was the life of that calling: but found a greater gaine to get mony by, in attending vpō the sale of masses and pardons, hauing greate gaine not only by thē that were liuing: but also by those that were long ago departed: [Page] so that in verie deed there was nothing re­maining beside the corps of the true cal­ling. Vnto this carkas and corps of the true calling, it pleased the Lorde in that great mercie wherwith hee loued vs, when wee were enemies vnto him: now againe in these latter daies after so lōg want ther­of, to breath in life & vital spirites: geuing vnto diuerse who had no more beside the olde marke of that calling, not only giftes of knowledg to be able: but of zeale also to be willing & boulde, euen whē the market of your Inuentions & Traditions was the greatest to publishe the Gospel of God, & to beate down your inuentions by doctrine & exhortatiō out of the word: giuing foorth euidēt testimonies thereby, that they were the true & lawful ministers of Christ, be­because they had the trueth and life of the Ministerie, which in your Church was wanting, in as much as they did attend vppon exhortation and doctrine, accor­ding to the trueth of the woorde, where­vnto in the Primitiue Churche men were appointed by imposition of handes. You speake nothing here of that which is [Page] principall, that is of the election vnto that place and function after due examinati­on had before, both of life and learning, without the which al your purest Canons account him as a Leyman, & appoint grie­uous punishment for him that shall other­wise ordeine him: but so you haue the sha­dowe, you passe not for the bodie: so you may enioy the least of the accessaries, you can willingly want the principal. The oc­casion that you haue offered in ascribing so much to the imposition of handes, hath drawne me beside my purpose and mea­ning to speake, as you haue already heard touchinge that matter.

Answeare.

TOuchinge the fourth noate of the churche, that it is catholique or vni­uersall, if you set it against particularity, meaning that the churche is not bounde to any particular place or person we doe im­brace it as a certaine trueth: But if you wil haue the Churche alway discerned by the greater multitude, the scriptures will [Page] not suffer vs to ioyne with you in that. Your testimonies out of the Scriptures, as that of Isaie the seconde, and the testi­monies next following out of the Psalmes: doe prooue that many people shall bee brought to the true knowledge & worship of god. For the vniuersal note [al] is so ta­kē in the scriptures. And I am perswaded that you doe not thinke that all people and nacions in general shalbe brought to be of the true Churche: but as for comparison, whether that the number shalbe greater or lesse than they that are not brought to the faith, they doe make no mention therof.

The other testimonies doe declare that the trueth shall come into many places, but whether those places shalbe moe or fewer than the reste, or whether the greater nū­ber of the inhabitātes of those places shal­be gayned by the trueth vnto God, they doe not speake any woorde thereof: yet I thinke that is the matter that you woulde willingly establishe hereby. Your last wit­nesse out of the Gospel, if it bee graunted you that it is spoken of the church in gene­ral, yet will it make nothing for vniuersa­lity, [Page] vnlesse any wil imagine, that what­soeuer is visible or not hidden, is thereby foorthwith made general & common to al persons and places. You alleage a large testimony for this vniuersality, & doe quote in your margent August. lib. 3. confes. cap. 8. Where there is no more of all you haue alleaged to bee founde, saue the first lyne, which is: Turpis enim omnis pars est suo v­niuerso non congruens. Euery part is euill fauoured, that agreeth not with his whole. This Authority telleth vs what worketh the disgrace of a part, euen this not to bee agreeable to that whole wherof he is part: As for your purpose it is to prooue an o­ther thing, that multitude is the beauty & the right note of the Churche: howe that cā be prooued out of this place I leaue it to your better consideratiō, whē you shal haue marked those wordes y^t doe immediatly goe before this place. Quae autē cōtra mo­res hominū sunt flagitiapro morū diuersitate vitanda sunt, vt pactū inter se ciuitatis aut gentis, consuetudine vel lege firmatū, nul­la ciuis aut peregrini libidine violetur. I feare your Informer hath of purpose con­cealed [Page] the place, from whēce he hath feche that, which he coupleth with this sentence as if it were annexed thereunto: least hee should receiue a wounde that hardly would bee healed, where hee woulde gladly at the least seeme to giue one.

The woordes are directed against one man, who differeth from al that are called Christians in any place. This would help you if you had to deale against a sect that had but one patron, or against a man that would be accompted a christian, and yet for al that in doctrine bee contrary to al Chri­stians. It is to weake to stand against a re­ligion, that sundrie coūtries, Prouinces & Kingdomes doe imbrace. Before I had Augustine with a wrong direction, now I haue his name without any direction at al Such wordes as you haue set down heere are found in his booke contra Epistolam fundamenti, where you conceale that,Aug. contra epi­stolam funda­menti cap. 4. which vtterly ouerthroweth all the foure notes of your Churche, and proueth them to be altogither insufficient to make true proofe where the Churche is.

These are the woordes that follow in that place. Apud vos autem vbi nihil horum est quod me iuuitet ac teneat, sola personat veritatis pollicitatio, quae quidem si tam ma­nifesta monstratur, vt in dubium venire non possit, praeponenda est illis rebus omnibus quibus in Catholica teneor. But amonge you where there is none of these thinges (saith Augustine:) that maye houlde me, there soundeth the onely promise of trueth, which if it bee shewed so manifest that it can not come in doubt: it is to be preferred before all those thinges, by which I am houlden in a Catholique Church. Hee had spoken before of Vnitie and agreement of people, of authoritie begon with miracles, & increased with charitie, and holy con­uersation, of antiquity, and succession of Bishops from Peter vnto his tyme, & also of vniuersality: and yet he professeth that the trueth when it is made manifest and playne, is to cary vs against them all. If the trueth bee boūd vnto Vnitie, successiō, & vniuersalitie, so that these be the markes wherby we are directed to the true church, and therefore to the trueth, by what com­mission [Page] dare Augustine to put them a sun­der, whom Almightie God hath ioyned togeather (as you thinke) to continue one for euer. For if they be neuer sundred, why maketh he a supposell of that that neuer happneth, especially dealing with them, that were perswaded that it was not so strange a thing, but that it might yea and had alredy hapned? Or why setteth he, the trueth in specie, that is: The trueth made open & plainly manifested: against those markes of the Church: when as the trueth, whether in parables, playne speach, or howsoeuer, is neuer founde sundred from them as you thinke? Moreouer why doeth he trouble him selfe with comparing of thinges togeather, affirming that the one shall more perswade then the other: if it bee impossible for the one to perswade, but not for the other. For comparison is of those that bee like, but there is no resem­blaunce betweene a thing impossible, and that which may bee doone. Laste of all howe agree you with Augustine, that saith, The plaine and vndoubted trueth perswadeth more than them all: When [Page] as you are of opinion, not onely that the trueth can not be had plainly, but that it cannot be had at all, but in and by them. You see that Augustine in this place vtter­ly ouerthroweth the markes and notes that you haue made of your Church, let­ting vs vnderstande that the trueth may bee sundred from all, euen from the suc­cession of Bishoppes, which you make so great an account of: that (in your opini­on) heauen and earth may sooner come to­geather, then those two bee parted and put asunder. It standeth you vpon to make this breach vp againe, if it possibly can be performed of you, for it hath vndone al that you haue trauayled in al this time to esta­blishe. It was not without cause therfore that Augustine both came in and went out so like a straunger, as no man coulde knowe (when once hee had made his ap­paraunce) where too haue him againe howe glad soeuer hee woulde haue beene, to haue spoken with him. But let it be ad­mitted that Augustine spoke of a matter that coulde not come to passe, when hee saide, that the trueth made playne and ma­nifest, [Page] was a note of the Churche to be pre­ferred before vnitie, succession vniuersality &c. That which followeth wil declare a­gainst whom he obiecteth the name of Ca­tholique: euen agaynst those heretiques, who when they woulde bee called Catho­lique, yet can but shewe one Churche or one house, where their religion is profes­sed. For these are his words. The Church alone hath so obteined the name of Catho­lique, that where as all Heretiques would be called Catholiques, yet when a straun­ger shall aske where men meete at the Ca­tholique Church, none of the Heretiques dare shewe him either their Temple or their house. If Englande, Scotlande, Denmarke, Suetia, Saxony, Heluetia, Retia, Vallis Tellina, Brunswicke, Rhene, Hessia, Wittenberge, Russia, Brande­burge, with the great Cities through the whole Countrey of Germany could shew but one Church, one house, & one prouince or litle Shire among them al, where their religion were professed, or if al these great kingdomes cōmon wealthes & countreies [Page] coulde by some conuersion bee turned into one litle prouince, temple, or house, then might this authoritie, or that that follow­eth out of Augustine, haue some colour a­gainst vs. But since, that Gospell which wee professe, at the first did spreade it selfe abroade into infinite places, and was ge­nerally receiued, vntil the dominion of that man of sinne, the Pope: vnder whom for a long time it was greatly darkened, and now since the late reuiuing againe therof, hath greatly enlarged her dominion & shut you out, not of some fewe houses or prouin­ces: but out of a number of kingdomes, dominions, common wealthes, & countreys, daily getting ground of you (be your Ty­ranny and persecution neuer so great) your authorities out of Augustine can stande you in no steede. As concerning the latter part of your last authoritie, which affir­meth that the Catholique Churche by the cleerenesse of one faith spreadeth out it self from the East vnto the West, yf it bee ta­ken so generally as the woordes seeme too giue out of it: it pulleth cleane frō you your title of [Catholique]. For you can not de­ny [Page] but that al the Greeke Churchs vtterly renounce the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome, & the Churches that are scattered here and there throughout all Asia and A­frica, in like maner doe not acknowledge it. As for Europe you heard me euen now recite what kingdomes, common wealths and countreies in it, abhorreth the Pope and all his detestable enormities. And in those kingdomes and countries where the Pope is receiued, this I dare say, for you doe prooue it by fire & fagot, that there is no countrey, not Italy it selfe excepted, where there are not great nūbers of peo­ple, that from the bottome of their hartes doe detest the Pope. And therefore if you measure vniuersality by place and person, as you are wont to doe: taking that to bee vniuersall which is receiued in all places, and of all persons, you see that your religi­on commeth far short of a catholique reli­gion. You close vp three lines in the ende closly togither with Augustine his words, as if they were not only spoken at one time & with one mouth, but euen also with one breath. Wheras he hath not one such word [Page] there, it is wholy your owne application and conclusion, it is none of his. If a man woulde take suche libertie vnto him selfe, hee might soone beguile the ignorant rea­der. I coulde the better haue borne this without making any mention therof, yf I had not seene the like in you before, and therfore I cannot but admonish you. This place of Augustine doeth in deede make warre against the Family of loue, who bring in a religion that neuer was hearde of since the beginning of the worlde, recei­ued publiquely in any one Prouince, or taught in any one Temple, from the begin­ning: As for those whom it pleaseth you to cal Puritanes, when you tel me what groūds, of religiō they hold dissēting from the truth, I wyl geue them warning to be in a readinesse to resist you. I knowe none in Englande that eyther woulde be called by that name, or deserue to bee called by it beside the Papist, and the Family of loue. For the Papists are so ouer pure and per­fect in theyr owne iudgement, that they sell the very excrements and superfluitie of their woorkes vnto others: And as for the Family of loue, after that a [Page] fewe yeeres of theyr Apprentishyp be ex­pired, & they begin to set vp for themselues, they are of opinion, it is no more possible for thē afterward to sinne, than is possible for light to become darkenesse. If those be the true marks of the church in that sence which you doe take them, I see no cause why the Scribes and Pharisees, might not iustly agaynst our Sauiour haue clai­med the title of the Church. For they were at great vnitie among them selues, so that their Churche might wel haue beene cal­led Vna: And they abounded in prayer, fasting, and almes, which you doe simply set downe without any addition, for the fruites of holynesse: and therefore theyr Churche was Sancta: Moreouer they sate in Moses seate, and succeeded him in the Chayre, and therfore they were iustly inti­tuled vnto succession: and theyr Churche lawfully called Prophetica: which was the same before Christe that Apostolica is nowe: and last of all the greater num­ber went with them agaynst Christe, and therfore theyr Church was Catholica. It is manifest thē that you haue saide nothing [Page] for your Church, which the scribes & pha­risees might not say sor them selues. And if your notes were true, Christe Iesus could neuer haue preuayled against them, hauing the true notes of the Churche, and therfore being the true church, against the which nothing can preuaile. The notes that are giuen by the Apostles them selues of the Churche, and wherby they were led to acknowlege any people to be the church of God, were two in nūber: faith in Christ Iesus: and loue towardes his saintes: ac­cording as it is written by the apostle. We giue thankes vnto God, Colloss. 1.4. euen the father of our Lord Iesus Christ, alwaies praying for you, since wee heard of your faith in Christ Iesus, and of your loue toward al Saints. It appereth hereby, that the Apo­stle did acknowlege thē for mēbers of the Church, vsing them as brethren in giuing thankes to God, & praiyng for them: after that these tokens of the Churche, too wit, faith in Christ Iesus, & loue towards his Saintes, did appeare in them through the preaching of the Gospel.Ephesi. cap. 1. ver. 15. The same is con­firmed in the Epistle to the Ephesians in [Page] the same woordes. Therefore after I hearde of the fayth which you haue in the Lorde Iesus, and loue toward al the Saintes, I ceast not to geue thankes for you, making mencion alwayes of you in my prayers. And not onely the same mat­ter, but euen the verie same manner and forme of woordes, is vsed throughout his e­pistles, where he hath any occasion offered to touche the same.1. Thes. 1.3. As in the first epistle to the Thessalonians: and in the second also, and the first chapter.ad Phile. 5. In the Epistle to Phi­lemon. In like maner he rehearseth these same two markes: of faith in Christ Iesus, and loue towardes all Saintes. These were marks that the Apostles were direc­ted by to discerne of the Churche, they thought these sufficient causes to mooue them to thinke of others as their brethren, and the deare Children of God, when as they thorow the preaching of the woorde, were knitte vnto Christe by faith, and vnto his children that did serue him after that woorde, by loue and sincere affection of hearte and good will towardes them. These markes that are noted as the tokens [Page] of GOD his children in those firste and mother Churches, can not bee founde with you. For the worde soundeth not among you, which shoulde discouer by the sight of that which the Lord in iustice doth require, so great imperfection to be in vs: & withal so much mercie to bee in Christ, for men that are confoūded in themselues: as would prouoke vs by faith to repose our selues vpon him and his mercies. As for the doc­trine of your Churche, it so vpholdeth the aptnesse add inclination of man to doe wel, the liberty and freedome of his will, that he cannot come to the sight and knowledge of any so greate want as might sende him hungerly after Christ, and his mercies, to cleaue therevnto by faith: besides that, it doeth so fearefully geue out the affection & disposition of this our mediatour, as if a man coulde not come to the speache of him in the least matter, before halfe the courte of heauen were mooued for that matter, in his behalfe, and shoulde befreend him therein, which turneth our affection & affi­ance, comfort & confidence rather towarde them, then towardes him. Wherevpon a­ny [Page] man may cleerely see and vnderstande, that this Churche of yours is not knit vn­to Christ by faith, And howe it is affec­ted towardes his Saintes who are begot­ten and borne agayne by the immortal seed of the worde, all the worlde may iudge, and their blood that hath beene so plentifully spilt, hath left in euery kingdome and coun­trie sufficient witnesses thereof agaynst you.

Answeare.

YOu labour earnestly for succession, & therefore doe geue the attempt once a­gaine to proue, that true faith and doctrine hath bene preserued and kept from the be­ginning, first by traditiō, & then by writing & tradition, in a continual succession of Bi­shoppes & Priestes. You alleage for proofe of this, that which is writtē by the Apostle to the Thessalonians: State & tenete traditi­ones quas didicistis siue per sermonē siue per [Page] epistolam nostram: Keepe suche things as you haue learned, eyther by our woorde, or by our writing: he exhorteth thē to obserue whatsoeuer the Apostles had mooued them vnto, either in their sermons, or by their letters: but he promiseth not the Churche, that there shalbee suche fidelitie in all who are to succeede them, that a man may safe­ly depende vppon their woordes and wri­tinges: and this is the matter that you haue taken in hande to prooue. If you coulde haue made the Apostle speake thus: Tenete traditiones quas discetis siue per ser­monem, siue per epistolam, non a nobis tan­tùm, verumetiam a succedentibus nobis E­piscopis quibuscunque: It woulde haue made somethinge for your succession. If you had but entred into the least considera­tion that possibly might bee of the matter, setting affection aside, you shoulde soone haue discerned, that it was impossible to e­stablishe a necessitie binding all times to come: by a verbe that noteth only the time past: Keepe those things (saith the Apo­stle) which you haue learned. And no lesse absurde, to inferre a succession, [Page] from wordes that mencion those onely who are in present possession: keepe those thinges saith he, which you haue learned of vs, not that which you shal learne of our successours. I do greatly meruel that euer you could be brought to build a matter of so great importaunce in your iudgement, vp­pon so feeble a foundation. For before this foundation shalbe able to beate any suche weight as you haue layde vppon it, these grauntes must freely bee geuen vnto you. First that an exhortation to doe a thing, necessarily inferreth that thing both to haue bene done by them that were so exhor­ted, & by al that haue euer come after them: for vpon Paule his exhortatiō to the Thes­salonians, that they shoulde keepe suche thinges as he had taught them eyther by worde or writing: you gather a continuall practise to haue bene made of those things by them, and all that haue come after them. You might as probably reason thus, that because A Preacher once gaue exhor­tation to his Parishioners too beware of wrath, and to mainteine loue and concerd: [Page] Therefore you are sure there shall neuer a­ny discord be hearde of in that towne after that day, vnto the ende of the worlde. Se­condly this must bee graunted vnto you al­so, that an exhortation made indifferently to all the faithfull people of Thessalonia: commaundeth a practise thereof to By­shoppes and Priestes onely. For the Apostle arming the church of Thessalonia against Antichrist his forcible delusions, which the wicked shalbe geuen vp to be­leeue, because they haue refused the loue of the trueth: willeth not one sort of them par­ticularly, but al of them generally, stedfast­ly to imbrace and holde fast those instructi­ons, which they had receyued from him and the Apostles, eyther by woorde or writing. Thirdly, that woordes spoken without any limitation at all, are onely iu­stified in them, who doe in order succeede one another: for you will haue these traditi­ons to bee kept in a continuall successi­on of Byshoppes and Priestes onely. Fourthly, that woordes mencioning thinges deliuered, and the maner how they [Page] are deliuered, doe necessarily inferre, howe they haue and shallbee preserued: for the Apostle telleth them that they are to keepe such thinges as haue bene deli­uered vnto them, whether it were by word or by writing: but hee bindeth them not to any certaine manner of keeping of thē, and much lesse to that manner, which he had deliuered them by: as if it shoulde bee vnlawfull to keepe any of that in writing, for the helpe of their memories: which hee had deliuered onely in preaching. Now out of woordes that declare the manner of deliuering, you necessarily will conclude the manner of keeping. If al these things were graunted vnto you, you might haue some colour for that matter which you are about to prooue: but as the place is of it selfe, I doe not remember that euer I hearde, so much weight to haue bene laid vpon so weake a body.

Traditions (as the Apostle speaketh of them) are deliuered partly by writing, and partly by woorde of mouth: so that tradi­tion is affected towardes the writtē woord of God, as the generall or vniuersall to­wardes [Page] his particular: you make them as two seuerall members, one diuerse from an other. Consider therefore well where you haue receiued this distinction, you may see that you haue it not from the Apostle, for he distinguisheth otherwyse. I woulde willingly learne, how you can proue, that matters of faith haue beene kept partly in tradition, (as you say) from the beginning. Irenaeus saith otherwyse, in the first Chapter of his thirde booke, as you hearde before:Irenaeus. Non per alios dispositi­onē salutis nostrae cognouimus quàm per eos, per quos Euangelium peruenit ad nos, quod quidem tunc praeconiauerunt, postea per Dei voluntatem in scripturis nobis tradiderunt: fundamentum fidei nostrae futurum. We knowe not our saluation by any other, then those by whome the Gospel hath come vnto vs, which then they preached, and afterwarde by the will of God left it in wryting, to be the piller of our faith. He saith that our faith must leane vpon that which the Apostles first preached, and af­terwarde by the will of God, left in wry­ting: [Page] and not as you woulde haue it, part­ly vpon that, and partly vpon tradition.

You bring another testimony out of the Epistle to the Corinthes, 2. Corint. 2. where the Apostle promiseth that he will order other thinges, when hee cometh: to prooue that the true faith hath beene partly keept in tradition. If they bee matters of faith which the Apostle speaketh of, in that pla­ce: tell vs what they bee: if they bee no matters of Faith, but outward orders, then you speake not to the matter, which you haue taken in hande. For wee deny not, but the Churche may order outward thinges, as shalbee thought most meete to edify with all.

That the Sabboth day is chaunged frō the Saterday vnto Sonday: that the Sa­crament of Baptisme is more often admi­nistred thē it was in the primitiue church: that we are not restreined now à suffoca­to & sanguine: Maketh nothing against vs: who knowe and professe, that outwarde thinges of that nature that these bee of, may be reteyned or refused by the churche, [Page] as they shall perceiue them tend to edi­fying, or otherwyse. Looke you wel vnto it, whoe are of opinion, and doe professe, that the Apostles doctrine & traditions, are faithfully reserued, in a perpetuall succes­sion of Bishoppes, and deliuered from one to another. How faithfully doe you reserue them, when you take liberty as you doe professe, to chaunge them? I say it stan­deth you vpon, to looke how you chaunge any of their traditions, whoe take vpon you to bee faithfull reseruers of the same, and men that are put in trust to deliuer them ouer vnto their posterity. If any man shall consider aduisedly, howe your proofes doe confirme in this place, the matter that you haue taken in hande to prooue: hee shall hardly get them hang to­gither.

You say we are discharged of our ab­stinence from strangled and blood, not by Scripture: but by the authoritie of the Churche: who saith now in her generall councelles, as then shee did: Visum est spi­ritui Sancto & nobis: let me aske you this [Page] question, how it cometh to passe that of one thing, the Churche shoulde say: Visum est spiritui Sancto & nobis: And agayne of the same thing: Non visum est spiritui San­cto, & nobis: but by the Scripture, which telleth vs, that such outwarde thinges are to be done and left vndone: as they shalbee thought to edifie our brethren or other­wyse. So that to maintayne peace and a­mity, betweene the Gentiles, & the Iewes who were so perswaded of Moses lawe, it was expedient for a tyme during this their persuasion, that the Gentiles should absteyne from their liberty: but after that the Iewes were perswaded, that the cere­monies must geue place to Christ and his Gospel, it was not expedient they should absteyne from their liberty any longer, neither did that rule of the Scriptures, which restrayneth things lawfull of them­selues, vnto that which is expedient: any longer binde them. The Churche said in that councell. Visum est spiritui Sancto & nobis, ne quid amplius imponeremus vobis oneris, quàm haec necessaria: After they had debated it by the Scriptures that [Page] Moses lawe, was not necessarily to be vr­ged vpon the Gentiles: so that the reason why they say it seemes good vnto the holy Ghost and vs, is because they had learned by the Scriptures, which are the wry­tinges of the Holy Ghoste: that the Gen­tiles were free, from the bondage of the ceremoniall lawe.

The olde way that the Prophet willeth them to inquire after, is that way, which is described in his woorde, as appeareth in the nyententh Verse of that Chapter, which you haue alleaged. If you woulde inquyre after that waye, these controuer­sies betweene you and vs, woulde soon be at an end.

Answeare.

IF you meane by lawful successiō, those who shall succeed in the principall suc­cession: that is the succession of trueth, there is no question of that, but such are to bee heard, as doe bring the trueth of the Apo­stles Doctrine with them: but if you doe binde the trueth to persons, who haue suc­ceeded the Apostles in place, you knowe what hath bene prooued against this opi­niō before, in your third note of the church, wherunto I referre you. You neuer reade that Cain, Nemrod, Ismael, Esau, Core, Dathan, and Abiram, professed a newe re­ligion and a diuerse worship of God from the rest: the scripture chargeth them with no such matter, but with corrupt lyfe and wicked conuersation: You contend for doctrine and religion to keepe that with in a succession of Bishoppes and Priests, and to charge them who depart from that succession, with corruption in religion. To what ende then serueth this number and assembly of men, corrupt in lyfe, but not touched with heresie, vnlesse you thinke [Page] that whosoeuer is corrupt in life, maintey­neth by and by a false and corrupt religiō: and maketh a publique departure from the trueth: either else you had bene per­swaded, that this nomber woulde haue made me afraid, once to haue aduentured, the trial of their strengths? Let it be graū­ted, that all these men here seuerally set downe and noted, as departers from the true succession: haue mayteyned Idolatry, and erected a false worshippe of God, de­parting from the trueth and true profes­sion: What can you gather here vpon, but that it is not lawful to departe from those who vphold and maintayne true religion? Now whether you or wee bee the mayn­teyners of the trueth that is the contro­uersie, and therefore you may geue these men good leaue to returne from whence they came, for any helpe that you are lyke to haue from them. It may bee if they were better examined, that they woulde say and speake greatly against you: for Cain a wicked man, had noe bles­singe nor mercye for all his succession, [Page] albeit the birthright was his, and therfore the Priesthoode apperteyned vnto him by lawful succession. Ismael the elder, and therefore a lawfull successor in the Priest­hoode, yet a wicked member, and left vnto posteritie no tradition but of persecution. Esau the elder and therfore in the succes­sion of the Priesthoode, but yet hated of the Lord, and one who reserued fewe good traditions, that euer I coulde reade of to posteritie. Core, Dathan, and Abiram, of the tribe of Leui, lawfully intituled vnto the office of the Priesthoode: the traditi­ons that are deliuered vnto posterity from them, are, that they were ranke rebelles a­gainst the Lord, and against Moses his annoynted. Wee are ready to prooue, that the Euangelist noteth your Churche,1. Iohn 2. and that you are they who haue departed from the Apostles, and the auncient chur­ches: and for proofe of this, wee appeale not onely vnto the writinges of the Holy Ghost, the Canonicall Scriptures: but also vnto that testimony, which Irenaeus before hath geuen of true knowledge, and of the state of the auncient Churche how [Page] to discerne it, and by what markes: and therefore wee say with Augustine against you: Exire non est sanae Doctrinae. And yet for al that it is not simply and without respect true, for if the Doctrine bee not sounde, it is as lawfull to departe from it, as it is vnlawful, to go from that which is good. So that to departe from any Doc­trine, is not otherwyse lawfull or vnlaw­full: but according as the Doctryne it selfe is good or bad, from the which hee doeth depart. All of these were wicked members, and yet within the priuiledge of this succession, which you woulde make such a defence against corruption, as that a man needed not to feare any more, if once hee had got that sanctuary vpon his backe. Moreouer the greatest euilles that they are blamed for in the Scriptures, we are committed of them, before they left the society of the Churche, and children of God: whyle yet they were within the succession, howsoeuer you woulde seeme to perswade vs, that they neuer departed from goodnesse, before they had taken [Page] their leaue of succession. You affirme out of Ambrose, that the order in the olde lawe, was a type and figure of that, which shoulde bee in the trueth vnder Christ, and therefore as the trueth was ioyned with the succession then, so is it nowe: but then (say I) it was not alwayes ioyned with the succession of Priestes, and therefore it is not to bee holden for a trueth, that now it shoulde bee so. And thus I prooue that in the olde lawe, the trueth wēt not al­wayes with succession. In the Churche of Israell, the ordinare succession of Priests was interrupted and broken of, as appea­reth in the first booke of the Kinges:1. Reg. cap. 12.31 cap. 19.18. and yet there was a Churche and great nom­ber of faithfull people, that kept the pu­rity of Doctrine, and neuer bowed their knees vnto Baal.

You may hereby plainely perceiue, that the trueth and purity of the worshippe of God, hath bene reserued: when yet the lawfull and ordinary succession of Priests failed. And the contrary is as plaine also, that there hath beene an ordinary and visi­ble [Page] succession of Priestes: when notwith­standing the trueth was banished, & most grosse errours receiued. For at Ierusalem in the Reigne of the Kinge Achaz, there was an outwarde and visible succession of Priestes, yet the temple of God was shut vp, and Vrias the Priest, at the comman­dement of the Kinge, did publiquely pro­phane the worshippe of God, as appea­reth 2. Chronic. cap. 28.24. and in the se­cond booke of the Kinges cap. 16.15.16. 2. Chroni. 28.24. 2. Reg. 16.15.16 And in lyke manner at the comminge of Christ, there was at Ierusalem an ordina­ry succession, for they succeeded Moses and sate in his seate: & yet for al that, their doctrine most corrupt, and the true church warned oftentymes by our sauiour Christ, to take heede of the leauen of the Scribes and Pharisees, who had the ordinary suc­cession from Moses. You may therefore plainely see, that before Christ in the olde lawe, ther was purity of doctrine, without ordinary and visible succession of Priests, and likewyse ordinary and outwarde suc­cession, without sincerity of Doctrine.

Wherupon I doe conclude w^t Ambrose, that because the order of the Churche in the olde lawe, was a type of the state in the newe lawe vnder Christ: that trueth of doc­trine, is not nowe bounde to an ordinary succession of Bishoppes. And if in the go­uerment of that people, when all thinges were so visible and outwarde, for the capa­city of them, (the manner it selfe of wor­shippe not excepted:) there was interrup­tion of visible and ordinary succession: and the promise of succession was iusti­fied to bee but with condition, so long as they did obserue the lawe of God: howe much more in this tyme, when the worshippe of God is not so externall, but inwarde in spirit and trueth, will the Lorde not bee bounde vnto succession, when there shallbee a manifest defection, and falling away from the obedience of his woord. And you can not bee ignorant, that there is in the newe Testament,2. Thessa. 2. a plaine foretelling of a generall defection, which can no more stand, with a continual ordinary succession, then can Christ with Antichrist. And least any man shoulde [Page] imagine, that the Apostle doth but speake of some particular declining of this or that Church: the circumstances of the text, doe so set it foorth: as they doe leaue no doubt in the matter. For it is saide indefinitely, that he shall sit in the temple of God, & not with any restraint, that he shall sit in this or that temple, Church or place. And al­so, it is saide, that his comming shall be with all power, that all may receiue iudge­ment, which haue not beleued the trueth: so that the iudgement is not to come parti­cularlie vpon some one particular Churche or place, but generally vppon all that haue not beleeued and loued the trueth. And if succession haue suche priuiledges with it: that there is no danger of deceiuable doc­trine, where it can be iustified to continue, why should not the Greeke Churches, as wel be beleeued for the trueth of their doc­trine, being able to deriue their succession from the Apostles, as well as you. If suc­cession haue in it such a blessing, in sprea­ding out it selfe without interruption, how happeneth it, that the Churches planted at Antioch, Ephesus, and Corinth &c. haue [Page] felt no greater benifite by it? those can truly say, that the Apostles planted them & ap­pointed Bishops ouer them. If succession then be so fruitefull in it selfe, what reason can bee rendred, why it should not take their, which may not be giuen in like man­ner, why it may likewise bee barren with you? They that shall reade the Prophetes with any diligence, and conscience to bee instructed in the state of the Church before Christ, and vnder the law: shall soone per­ceiue howe farre it is from the trueth, to take warrant from thence to binde the true faith & doctrine to a continual succession of priests. For thus saith Ierem. of the priests in his time:Ieremy. 2. The Priests saide not: Where is the Lord? & they that should minister the lawe knew me not: the pastors also offēded against me, & the Prophets pro­phecied in Baall. Ezechiel likewise tel­leth vs, what the Prophetes were who taught the people in his time.Ezech. 13. O Israel (saith hee) thy Prophetes are like Foxes in the waste places, they haue seene va­nitie and lying diuination, saying the Lorde saieth it, and the Lorde hath not [Page] sent them, therefore thus saith the Lord, because you haue spoken vanitie, and seene lyes, therefore beholde I am a­gainst you. Letting passe the time of Ie­roboam, when all thinges were most cor­rupt in Religion: I will conclude with Malachie, touching the ordinary state of the Priestes in his time.Malach. 2. The Priestes lippes (sayth Malachie) shoulde preserue knowledge, and they should seeke the lawe at his mouth. But yee are gone out of the way, you haue caused many to fall by the lawe, yee haue broken the coue­naunt of Leuy, sayth the Lord of hostes, therefore haue I also made you to bee despised, and vile before all people.

You may see what a daungerous doc­trine it is, to tye the trueth vnto a succes­sion of Priests: and that if a man would so haue doone vnder the lawe, he should haue giuen sentence againste the Prophetes that were extraordynarily raysed vppe, to reforme bothe Priestes and people, with those Priestes and Prophetes, who had their office by orderly and ordinary suc­cession [Page] & yet were seducers of the people. I doe therefore conclude with Ambrose against you, seing the order and state of the olde law was the type of the new: & in the olde Testament, the Priests who had suc­cession of place and function, somtime did leaue the trueth & imbraced pestilent doc­trine: that therefore succession nowe is no certaine marke, whereby a man may al­waies be sure to be directed vnto the truth. You haue hitherto contended for a successi­on continuall and without interruption from the Apostles, to haue remained a­mong you, as the safest treasure house of of the trueth: but this succession without interruption, you can not finde as yet: I pray you giue me leaue in a few words to try, not whether you haue a succession with out interruption, but whether you haue a­ny succession at all from the Apostles.

The charge and office of the Apostles, is declared in the Gospel after Sainte Matthewe. Matth. 28. Goe and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the fa­ther, and the Sonne, & the holy Ghost, teaching them to obserue all thinges, [Page] whatsoeuer I haue commaunded you.

Their office consisteth in teaching and Preaching: (for they are charged to goe and teach all Nations) and in administra­tion of the Sacramentes: and least any should imagine that they are set at liberty, to teache whatsoeuer liked them selues: there followeth by and by a restraint in these woordes: Teaching them to ob­serue whatsoeuer I haue commaunded you: If any clayme to bee their succes­sours in that office, he must be a Teacher and Preacher vnto men, not a sacrificer for them: And that whiche hee teacheth may not bee the inuention of man, but that which is commaunded from God.

They therefore doe necessaryly inforce vppon their successours an office & mini­sterie of Preaching and Teaching: and that of no other thinge, besides the same which God hath commaunded. Where their succession is there is a trueth of do­ctrine, and a teaching ministery thereof, whereby men them selues are offered as slain sacrifices vnto God: hauing their cor­rupt affections subdued & slaine in them by [Page] doctrin & exhortatiō out of the word of god. your priests are instituted, not by preching the word of God, to sacrifice mē vnto God: but by saying of certain prescript words, to sacrifice for mē vnto god: & to make satisfac­tion for their sinnes, cōmitted against God. The duty required in an office being as the life thereof, & the place no other then the body: it falleth out, that all the succession which you plead for from the Apostles, (if it were graunted you) yet were it no other, then the body of the Apostles succession, without either the life or spirit thereof.

Touching your first demaūd, to wit, who he was that first preached that faith w^c we do now profes: [...]ob. 23. I do answere w^t the Apostle that it was christ Iesu. To th'other part of your demaūd, for the successiō of bishops, to wit, who was the 1. 2. & 3. bishop, &c. I haue alredy answered in the 3. note of the church. where your own witnesses haue confessed, that successiō of bishops is no note for vs in these later times wherby to try the church. Let it I pray you be lawful to me to moue one questiō vnto you, & that is, why (seking confirmatiō & testimony for religiō, you let [Page] passe al those who were earewitnesses of y^e trueth, & true religion, & had cōmission frō the Lord himself, & confirmation of their fi­delitie herein, vnder his own hād and seale? Haue you not read thus in the 2. to y^e Heb. The Gospel begā to be preached first by the Lord himself, Heb. 2. & afterward it was cō­firmed vnto vs by those that heard him, god bearing witnesse vnto thē, by signes & wonders, & diuerse gifts of the holy Ghost? Your meaning cannot be good in omitting men so sufficiently authorized, & flying vnto others as the doctors & bishops of the primitiue churche: who when we are come thither, do post vs ouer againe to these as the lawful & only sufficiēt witnesses in these doubts of religiō. The commō say­ing may be welverified of you, y^t you would teach vs the next way about: for you send vs frō the sciptures to the fathers, & when we are come to them, they sende vs backe a­gaine to the scriptures. You haue heard al­ready in the 3. note of the church, that they examined their succession of bishops by the scriptures, taking it therefore to be good, because their bishops warrāted their expo­sitiōs by scriptures, & you know what Au­gustine [Page] saith in this matter. Auferantur de medio quae aduersus nos inuicem non ex di­uinis canonicis libris, August. de vnit. ecclesi contra Petilian. ca. 3. sed aliunde recitamus, quia nolo humanis documentis, sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrari. Awaye with those authories that either of vs al­ledgeth against other, because I woulde haue the holy Churche to bee prooued, not by the doctrines of men,August. aduersus Maximi. lib. 4. but by the woord of God. Augustine in like maner sendeth vs from councels vnto the scriptures. But now saith Augustine to Maximine an Ari­an, neither may I alleage the councel of Nice, nor you the councell of Arimine to o­thers preiudice: neither stand I bounde to the authoritie of this, nor you to the authori­tie of that, but by the authority of the scrip­tures, which are witnesses proper to nei­ther of vs, but stand indifferent to vs both: Let matter be cōpared with matter, cause with cause, & reason with reason. If the fa­thers send vs from their own writinges, to the scriptures: from succession, to the scrip­tures, & from councelles, to the scriptures: why doe you omit the scriptures, and send vs to succession, to fathers, & to councelles? [Page] If the truth be bound to the fathers & coun­cels, and the true sense onely there to bee found, what meane they themselues, to send vs from thence vnto the scriptures? for that were to speake (as you doe afterwarde) to feede vs with the shell, and to keepe from vs the kernell: that is the sense and vnder­standing of the worde, which you affirme to be in their onely custodie. What neede we nowe to spende either Paper or paines about the names of those bookes, that all the fathers haue written in the Primitiue Church? You haue had a large offer by that man of famous memorie Bishop Ie­well, to take your choise among all the learned fathers, and doctours in the Church, sixe hundreth yeares after Christ, for the vpholding of the grounds & princi­pal points of your religion: what you haue said for it the Lorde knoweth, and diuerse that were before bewitched with it, begun now, (after that they see how little it is that can be saide in that behalfe) vtterlie to de­fie it.

You require to knowe if our doctrine were the same which they in the primitiue [Page] Church professed: who they were that did at that time note your going out and de­parture from the trueth, and did inuey and write agaynst it. This question is altogether vnnecessarie, for when an of­ffender is taken with the manner, it is a needlesse labour, to stande vppon the ex­amination of them, who were at the deed doing. Wee haue taken you with the manner, that is to say, with doctrine diuerse from the Apostles: and therefore neither lawe nor conscience can force vs, to examine them, who were at the deede doing, and witnesses of your first depar­ting. You heard Tertullian before, spea­king of the Churches that are farre from the Apostles time, say thus: Ipsa haere­ticorum doctrina, cum Apostolis comparata, ex diuersitate & contrarietate sua, pronun­ciabit ne{que} Apostoli alicuius Autoris esse, ne{que} Apostolici. The doctrine it selfe be­ing compared with Apostles, will by the varietie and contrarietie that is in it pro­nounce, that neyther Apostle, nor yet a­nie Apostolicall man, was the authour of [Page] it. This speaketh Tertullianus of those who liued long after the Apostles tymes, so that his iudgement is plaine: you can not nowe haue this benefite of your Cleargie, the matter by the Apo­stle his testimonie, falling cut so hey­nous and so apparunt agaynst you. For your Masse where one eateth and drin­keth all alone, can not stande with that Doctrine, which the Apostle hath deli­uered: Take you, and eate you. 1. Co­rinthians. 11. 1. Cor. 11. That doctrine which ex­tolleth the meriting of man, painting his Image smyling and laughing at his owne desertes: can not agree with that Image which the Apostle hath left of the regenerate man, wherein hee is painted weeping for his wante,Rom. 7. and in lamentable speache crying out: Mise­rable man that I am, who shall deli­uer mee from this bodie of sinne? That Doctrine which sendeth vs to the succession of Bishops and Priestes, for the Key that openeth and letteth into the truth: can not agree with that, which [Page] commendeth men for examining by the scriptures,Actes. 17.11. the doctrine of the Apostles themselues: men as likely to teach & hold the trueth, as any Bishops or Priestes since, who, or wheresoeuer. That doctrine which ioyneth Saintes and Angels with the Lorde, in that honour of calling vppon them for helpe: can not agree with it which sayth,Matth. 4. Thou shalt worship the Lorde thy God, and him onely shalt thou serue. To conclude, that doctrine which giueth soue­reigne authoritie vnto the Pope, aboue all Princes & Bishops whersoeuer: can not a­gree w^t that charge which Christ gaue vn­to his dicsciples,Matth. 20.25. saying: Ye know that the Lords of the Gentiles haue domination ouer them, and they that are great exer­cise authoritie ouer them, but it shall not be so among you.

It is great iniurie offred vnto the A­postles, the lawfull witnesses of the trueth, authorized therevnto by the Lord himselfe, to imagine or giue out of them, that they spoke so slenderly, either else so darkly and so doubtfully of the trueth: as that heresie and errour cannot sufficiently by any light [Page] which they haue giuen, be discerned from it: or that they left testimonie behind them, sufficient to establish the trueth, but not to confute falsehoode: when as the Apostle sayth,2. Tim. 3. that the scripture giuen by inspi­ration of God, is profitable to teach, and also to improue, and to correct, that the man of God may be absolute. Examine it well I pray you with your selfe, what should be the cause, that you should shunne as rockes, the witnesses which the Lorde hath appointed to speake as well against falshoode, as for the trueth: being neither content with that witnes which they haue borne vnto the truth, neither willing to stand vnto that, which they haue deliuered against falsehoode and errour. The way which you prescribe, as it is not necessarie: no more can it be anie safe kind of dealing. For who haue kept the register of those de­positions, which men haue deposed against you? Haue not you your selues, against whom they were vttered, had the custodie of them? What fidelitie then can wee i­magine nowe likely to be remaining vnto them, setting aside the power of the Lord, [Page] who can and often doeth reserue, and bring light out of the middest of darkenesse it selfe? Moreouer, what and if they who did espie it, had no knowledge by writing, to discrie it? When the Pharisees and Scribes at Christ his comming had cor­rupt true Religion, what bookes did you read were written against them, and howe able was Ioseph, Simeon, Marie, & Anna, to performe that worke? Falshood, is fals­hoode, albeit no man write against it, and the trueth can not but be the trueth, who­soeuer shall write against it. And therefore your argument for the trueth, grounding vpon the not writing against it, can carie litle credit with it, though it were graun­ted, that no man hath beene knowne to write against it. We are not destitute of witnesses, who at the beginning haue espi­ed the entring of your religion, and the de­parting from the true faith, albeit we stand vnto the testimonie of the Apostles, as the most sufficient and sound authoritie. The sixt Coūcell of Carthage,Concil. Aphric. cap. 92. which was about the yeare of our Lord. 430. where August. and 216. Bishops were assembled, after [Page] that they had seene the true and autenti­call copies of the Councel of Nice falsified by Zozimus, Bonifacius, and Celestinus three Bishops of Rome, one succeeding a­nother in order, for the supremacie of that sea: concluded with vniuersal consent, that no authoritie was to bee graunted vnto the Pope, ouer Affrica, or anie other foreine Churches: and this vniuersall authoritie, was the mother of that vniuersall corrup­tion, which folowed after in religion. Gre­gorie, who was Bishop of Rome, 600. yeares after Christ, writing of the Bishop of Cōstantinople, who would bee called v­niuersall Bishop, saith thus: In hac eius su­perbia, Lib. 4. epist. 34. quid aliud nisi propinqua iā esse An­tichristi tēpora designatur, qui illū videlicet imitatur, qui spretis in sociali gaudio Ange­lorum legionibus, ad culmen conatus est sin­gularitatis erumpere, dicens supra astra coe­li exaltabo soliū meum? In this his pride (meaning the Bishop of Constantinople, who claimed supremacy) what other thing is declared, but that the time of Antichrist is at hand, which foloweth him, who dispi­sing the equal & felowlike ioy of the angels [Page] went about to aspire vnto the toppe of sin­gularity, saying: I wil exalt my seat aboue the starres. You see if we had not taken you with the māner, yet had there bene suf­ficient helpe from witnesses, who were at the deade doing, to haue conuict you. You would knowe what became of that Church a thousand yeares next after the primitiue Church, and where shee kept all that time. It was sixe hundreth yeares after Christ, before the Pope had his vniuersal title, and supreme authoritie ouer all Churches: and sometime you cannot denie, but that hee must of necessitie haue, to take away the word of God, from the common & knowne tongue of the people, that his traditions might haue entrance without anie contra­diction, and men bee brought to occupie themselues in them, as in the chiefe and principall workes of Christianitie. It was 800. yeares after Christ before the know­ledge of the latin tongue, which was their mother tongue, did altogether decay amōg the common people, in Italie, Fraunce, Spaine, and Britaine: As for the Greeke Church, shee neuer receiued the Latine [Page] tongue, neither yet the Churches in Asia, and Ethiopia, all which time the Pope could not bring in the depth of his deceiue­able and damnable doctrine, the candle of God his word, shining out in their knowne tongue vnto all people, and therefore he was not as yet come vnto the height of his iniquitie. And in the yeare of our Lorde 1240. manie preachers in high Germa­nie, did freely preache against the Pope, and his doctrine, affirming the Pope to be an heretike, his doctrine damnable, and that if they had not come, the Lord woulde haue raised some out of the stones, who shoulde haue preached the trueth vnto his Church: and this was done publiquely the Belles ringing out vnto the Sermons. Crantzius, In Metro. Cra [...] lib. 8. cap. 18. a man who greatly fauoured the Pope, and vehemently inueyed against those preachers, sayth thus of them: Quidā pulsatis campanis, & conuocatis baronibus terrarū, in Vallis Sueuiae, sic feruntur praedi­casse in publica statione: quòd Papa esset hae­reticus, omnes episcopi & praelati simoniaci, & haeretici: Item quòd fratres praedicatores & minores peruerterent ecclesiā falsis praedica­tionibus, [Page] & {quod} omnes illi fratres prauam vitā ducerent, & iniustā: praedicauerunt (inqui­unt) ad hoc tēpus praedicatores nostri, & sepe­lierunt veritatē, & promulgarunt falsitatē: nos veritatem praedicamus & sepelimus fal­sitatē, indulgentiā quā damus vobis, non da­mus fictam, vel cōpositam ab Apostolico, vel episcopis sed à solo deo. This I speake be­cause in your accounts how long time the Church was obscured, you multiplie much more then euer you can bee able to proue. But let it be graunted, that there was no truth of doctrine taught by them that had the gouernment, & were the guides of the people, the Bishops and Prelates, by the space of one thousande yeares: yet might there be a Church, wherunto a man might resort, & tel her of his brother who had offē­ded him. For at the cōming of Christ, the Scribes & Pharisies had the gouernment, who were blind guides, and painted sepul­chers, yet was there a Church & number of chosen people of God, who liued in those times of darknes, & vnder gouernmēt: as Ioseph, Mary, Simeō & Anna, &c. being y^e true & faithful seruants of god. And our sa­uiour Christ, speaking of the shepheardes [Page] and guides of that time that went before him saith,Iohn. 10.8. that they were theeues & mur­therers: but the sheepe heard them not: meaning that those who were his sheepe, were kept in that blind & wicked gouern­ment, by his wonderful prouidence frō the infection of their doctrine. You heard also before, that in Ieroboams time, and after­wards, whē the priests were blind guides, & religion was most corrupt, euen then the lord had thousands: that neuer bowed their knees to Baal. There had he his Church, & therefore all things that are of necessitie re­quired (so as without thē it can be no longer any Church) were there to be heard. There was such light of life & cōuersation, as did clearly shine & giue light to chose that were in the house, & church of God: albeit Iesabel and her court could see no such matter, no more then you can perceiue any good ex­ample among those, who haue giuen lands and possessions, goods & liues, for the honor of God, in the cause & quarell of his trueth. Ther might any of y^e church being offēded with his brother, haue admonished him by himselfe, & afterward haue takē one or two [Page] with him, and if those could not preuaile, he might haue told it to those number that kept togither, and were knowne among themselues to ioyne togither, in the true worship of God.Heiron. in Mat. cap. 18. And this is that which is required in this place of Matthew, as Ie­rome declareth. Which all may bee per­formed, notwithstanding the ordinarie go­uernment of the Church, be vnder the eni­mies of the Church: and was practised in the late dayes of Queene Marie here in Englād: true doctrine preached, discipline exercised, and yet the gouernment in your handes, that were vtter enimies vnto it. If you say further, that the Church after Christ, is not to bee compared with the Church before Christ, because it hath more promises, and therefore take exception a­gainst my examples in times before christ: when the Church was kept vnder blinde guides: I answere, that for the visible ap­parance & gouernment of it, in that place where it was: the Church since Christ had neuer such promises, as the Church before had: & I will be readie at all times to proue it against you. Now if you will vrge neces­sarily [Page] a visible and ordinarie authoritie & gouernment of Bishops and ministers of the word of God, who shall haue and carie the face and countenance of the Church, where and in what place soeuer there is a Church: then how dare you say, that there is a Church and number of men of your re­ligion here in England, seeing the autho­ritie and gouernment is out of your hands? When anie of you shall offend in adulterie or otherwise, as some of you haue done, who among you do present the matter? To what court do you go? Where sitteth your Offi­ciall or Commissarie? Where are your Sacraments administred, and your Mas­ses celebrated? wee knowe not the place who do liue with you, and haue the gouern­ment in our handes, yet is it not vnlikely but that you haue such meetings, & neuer one of you, but knoweth where to haue your Sacraments administred, and your disci­pline vsed. And if this may be done by you, and yet we haue the ordinarie gouernment of the church in our hands: so in like maner might there be in former times, the exerci­ses of true religion practised in sundrie pla­ces, [Page] and yet you notwithstanding, haue the ordinary iurisdiction and gouernment, and carie all the outwarde countenance of the Church with you in those times. If you say (as you doe in deede) how can then his pro­mise be performed, who sayth that he will be with thē vnto the end of the world? I answere, wel inough: for can not the lord be with his Church, vnlesse he keepe them still in the possession of their Bishopriks & benefices, so that they carie the coūtenance and gouernement with them. The promise to be with them, inferreth not necessarily the maner howe he will be with them, and much lesse doeth it inferre this certaine maner, that they shall alwayes bee sure to haue the chiefe gouernment, and keepe the keyes in their hande. To answere you then in fewe woordes, where the Church was while you had the gouernment (set­ting aside the Greeke Churches, and o­thers, who neuer from Christ vnto this day acknowledged the Pope) I aun­swere, it was in Italie, Fraunce, Spaine, and Englande, &c. because there shall be a Temple of God, where Antichrist shall [Page] sitte, and they shall bee holie places, where the abomination of desolation shall stande: for Antichrist shal not make an vtter spoile and hauocke of the Church of Christ.

You require why you shoulde beleeue the iudgement of the learned in these daies vppon the Scriptures, rather then the iudgement of the holy Fathers, long be­fore vs in time, and also in learning, ver­tue, and perfection of life: especially being assembled in generall Councels: I aun­swere, if you meane by holie Fathers those who liued 500. yeares after Christ, you cannot proue that in the principall pointes of Religion, they taught or had anie o­ther iudgement of Scriptures, then we haue, neither can you proue, that their fruites of obedience, differed from the fruites of sundrie in these times, other­wise then that in one and the same gifte, one maye haue a greater measure and portion thereof, then another. But admit they were contrarie vnto vs in the ex­position of Scriptures, and farre be­yond vs in learning and perfection (as you [Page] cal it of life: yet may neither their learning nor their life, warrant vs that their exposi­tions and iudgements vpon the scriptures, are without any further triall to be admit­ted and allowed. For proufe wherof I had rather you should heare August. his words, then mine owne. Thus speaketh he of this matter.August. epist. 18. Alios ita lego, vt quantalibet sancti­tate doctrina{que} praepolleant, non ideo verum putem quia ipsi ita senserunt: sed quia mihi vel per illos authores canonicos, vel probabi­liratione, quod à vero nō abhorreat persua­dere potuerint. Augustine will haue no man carie matters of Religion away, vn­der learning or holinesse of life, further then he can make good his iudgement by the canonicall scriptures. And you haue heard before, that fathers haue sent vs from their owne priuate iudgement: and from their councels and common iudgements in publike assemblies: vnto the scriptures, as vnto a more sure and certaine rule.

Your next demaund is the same in effect w^t these, & therfore one answere may suffice both. For if those holy fathers assēbled in a councel, haue established any thing against [Page] the trueth, as some haue done, & bene con­trolled of those councels that followed, thē should he that followed them, haue leaned more to the doctrine of men, then an other man, who following his owne iudgement, had ioyned with the scriptures, and yet dis­agreed from all of them.

You demaund a reason why you should beleeue M. Caluine and those that are of his iudgement, rather then M. Luther and those who imbrace his iudgement: the one beeing as well learned as the other: clay­ming the spirit of God, aswel as the other: as able to confere places of Scripture to­gether, and to iudge thereof, as the other: I aunswere, that touching the matter of controuersie betwene them, you should ra­ther beleeue him then the other, who iusti­fieth his opinion by the Scriptures, bet­ter then the other: As for their habili­tie we are to measure it by the effect, and therefore to iudge and affirme that he who doeth more aptly and truely conferre pla­ces of Scripture togither, indeede is more able thervnto. If you would gather heere vpon, that conferring of places to­gether [Page] in Scripture, is not the right way to come to true knowledge, and so conse­quently to agreement in the trueth, when men are at variance, because these two v­sing this conference of scriptures haue not for all that agreed aboute the meaning of some scriptures: then I answere, that the leaning vnto the iudgements of the doctors and the fathers, is not the best way in con­trouersies to fall vnto agreement, and to find out the trueth: because Ierome & Au­gustine, contending about a place of scrip­ture in the Epistle to the Galathians, August. Epist. 19 can not agree whether Paul did truely & iustly reproue Peter, or that he did but dissemble a reprehending of him. Ierom alleaged for his exposition, the iudgement of seuen wri­ters, to wit, Ladodicenus, Alexander, O­rigen, Didimus, Eusebius, Theodorus, and Ioannes Bishop of Constantinople. Augustine alledged for the warrant of his exposition, onely Ambrose and Cyprian.

Nowe if because Maister Luther and Maister Caluine can not agree vppon the true meaning of one place of Scripture, by conferring of Scriptures, you will [Page] there­fore reiect the Scriptures, as no suffici­ent meanes to come to the knowledge of the trueth, or to decide controuersies in religi­on by them by the same reason a man may reiect the authoritie of the fathers, because Ierome & Augustine proceeding by their iudgementes to finde out the trueth, haue not for all that fallen vnto an agreement, but remained stil deuided in opinion tou­ching the true meaning of that place. And by the same reason likewise, a man may reiect councels, as not sufficient to dicide controuersies in Religion, & to bring men to knowledge of the trueth, because you, Thomists contending with your Scotistes, Lo. Viues in Aug. de Ciui. Dei. Cap. 26. whether y^e Virgin Mary were conceiued in sin or no, coulde not be brought to agree­ment by the authoritie of the councell of Basil, alleged by the Scotists for the defēce of their opinion, and making so plaine for them, as possiblie could be expressed.

To conclude this matter, if you woulde haue a reason why Maister Luther and Maister Caluine by conferring of Scrip­tures doe not yet for all that agree vp­pon the Exposition of some Scripture, [Page] this may be rendred: the Lorde wil not be bound to reueale all trueth, vnto all of his seruaunts: but will haue great giftes and graces, not to bee without some want ei­ther in knowledge, or otherwise: that wee should not thinke of men, aboue that which is meete, but that he who will glory may glory in the Lord.

You demaund whether it bee meete for all men to iudge vpon the Scriptures: I answeare, it is meete for all the children of God, to haue knowledge and iudge­ment in the word of God, and by it to dis­cerne betweene light and darkenesse, good and euil: for it is written in the Gospel af­ter Saint Iohn, Iohn. 20.4. that the sheepe and flock of Christe will followe the true Sheepe­hearde, because they knowe his voice, but will not followe a straunger, because they knowe not the voice of a straunger. If they had no discretion nor iudgement in the worde, why should they not as readily followe the voice of a straunger and ac­knowledge it, as the voice of the true shep­heard. And if they be not meet to iudge vp­on the Scriptures, then are they as meete [Page] to followe the voice of a straunger, as the voice of the true sheepeheard: yet the scrip­ture sayth, that they will not followe the voyce of a straunger, because they knowe it not. One thing that moueth you to think that all men are not meete to iudge of the scriptures, is, because S. Peter saith, y^t his brother Paule writeth many things hard to be vnderstod, which the vnlearned & vn­stable do peruert, as they do the other scrip­tures to their own destruction. This place telleth vs, that the vngodly are not meet to iudge of the scriptures. For he speaketh of such vnlearned, as are with al vnstable and vngodly, who receiue no more harme by those hard matters, that are handled in the scriptures, then by the most plaine & easiest pointes of all. For hee saith that they doe peruert the reste of the scriptures, to their owne destruction as wel as those. So that the daunger is in the man, and not in the scripture: vnlesse peraduenture you think, that through out all the scripture there is great difficultie & hardenesse for any man to conceiue, a right iudgement thereof. Which opinion the whole Scriptures doe [Page] directly stand against, for thus do we reade in the Prouerbs: prou. 8. All the wordes of my mouth are righteous, there is no fro­wardnes in thē, they are all plain to him that will vnderstand, & straight to them that would finde knowledge. And like­wise in the 2. Prou. 2. Chap. of the same boke it is written thus: If thou callest after know­ledge, & criest for vnderstanding, if thou seekest her as siluer, & searchest for her, as for treasures, thē shalt thou vnderstād the feare of the Lord, & finde the know­ledge of God. And Paule affirmeth such cleerenes to be in the gospel,2. Cor. 4. that he is not affcaid to say, if it be yet hid from them, the god of this world hath blinded their minds and closed vp their eyes: as if otherwise it were impossible for so great & cleere light as that is, not to shew it self manifest & eui­dent vnto them. To return againe vnto the place, you say y^t Paul writeth many things hard to be vnderstode, which is not so, for he speaketh but of some things. The speach of peruerting doth clere the matter it self frō all suspiciō, & doth charge peruerter only. The vnlearned also chalēged not simply in y^e respect, but w^t addition of instability & vn­godlines ioyned therunto, Which the vn­learned [Page] (saith the Apostle) & vnstable do peruert: doth not foretel vs of danger to a­ny other vnlerned, thē those who as they are vnlearned, so likewise are they vnstable & vngodly withal. Last of all the admonition that followeth perswading not to haue no dealing w^t the scriptures, as matters that were so hard, as that they could not be vn­derstode: but to take heede that they be not pluckt away by the error of the wicked & fal from their own stedfastnesse: declareth that the whole danger is in the persons, & not in the scriptures. And no maruel if the wicked peruertthe scriptures frō their true meaning: for as no mā knoweth the things of a man, saue the spirit of man, w^c is with­in him,1. Cor. 2.12. euen so the things of God knoweth no man, but the spirit of God, which the vngodly are destitute off. But those y^t are the childrē of God, as Paul witnesseth haue re­ceiued spirit of God, wherby they knowe the things that are giuen thē of God. For the spirit searcheth all things, yea euen the deep things of God. An other thing y^t ma­keth you think, that al mē are not meete to iudge of y^e scriptures, is as you say, for that when certain would necessarily haue vrged circūcision, & Moses law vpon y^e Gentiles, the [Page] Apostles & elders meete togither to consider of this matter, so that you gather heerevp­on, it belongeth onely vnto the Church as­sembled together in a councell, to iudge of matters of faith and religion, and the rest alwaies bound without any question of the matter, to obey. It is a very slender argu­ment to say, the church assembled together doth giue iudgement of matters of faith & religion that be in controuersie: & therefore the true members of that Church, are not meete to discerne of the scriptures, neither can truely discerne of those controuersies. You might as well say, that the man who hath seene with his eyes a theefe stealing, and hath taken him with the manner, can­not for all that truely discerne, whether it be theft and he a Theefe or no: because the Country meeteth afterwarde at the Assi­ses, to try the matter. Paule and Barnabas knewe the trueth of the matter and dispu­ted against them, that woulde necessarylie vrge Moses lawe: before the Apostles and Elders did meete about it. They were of the same iudgement before, that they were after, as it appeareth in the same chapter, [Page] albeit they thought men would bee better satisfied, if the authoritie & sentence of the Churche were had therein, and therfore went they not as doubting of the trueth in them selues, but as perswading others of that whiche they knowe was trueth. I do maruayle that you dare saye that those men, who vrged Moses law, & saide to the Gentiles, Except ye be circūcised after the maner of Moses, yee cannot bee sa­ued: had more Scriptures to alleage for them, then the Apostles and Elders had, because the new law was then vnwritten? What one place of Scripture can you bring, not only that the Gentiles, but that the Iewes them selues, to whom the law was geuen, coulde not haue beene saued: yf they had immediatly after Christe his ascention, lefte of Circumcision and the Ceremoniall lawe? The necessitie of the Ceremoniall lawe did not lye vppon the Iewes after Christe, the vsage of it for a time, was but for the weakenesse of some, & that ceremonies appointed of the Lorde, myght as (Augustine sayth) not without honour bee had vnto the graue. [Page] You say also with like vntrueth of speach, that they as iudges without Scriptures, ordered this matter: when as it appeareth plainely in that same Chapter, that Saint Iames prooueth the callyng of the Gen­tiles, out of the Prophet Amos, and there­vpon concludeth, that seeing they were turned vnto God without Moses law, they not obseruyng it, they were not nowe ne­cessarily to be troubled with it. Makyng the Lorde his dealyng in shewyng mercy vppon them, and turning them vnto him, when as yet they were without it: as a sufficient reason to induce them, that they were not to bee troubled with it, and much lesse vnder payne of damnation too bee bounde to the obseruation thereof.

You require who were iudges of mat­ters of faith and religion, the Scriptures, or men, from Adam to Moses, and so 800 yeeres after Christe his ascention. I doe aunsweare that men did iudge of matters of faith and religion, but not otherwyse then by the Scriptures: and as they were directed from them, as wee reade in the 17 of Deuteronomy: And thou shalt [Page] come vnto the Priestes of the Leuites & vnto the iudge that shal be in those daies, and aske, and they shal shew thee the sen­tence of iudgement, and thou shalt doe according to the thing that they of that place shal shew thee, according too the law which they shal teach thee. So that you may see they haue no absolute authori­ritie, to enioyne any thing vnto the people which is not according to the lawe: in as muche as it is saide, according to the lawe which they shall teache thee, thou shalt do. Whiche thing yet is better explaned in Deuteronmy cap. 24. Take heede of the plague of leprosie, that you obserue di­ligently, and doe according too all that the Priestes of the Leuites shall teache thee, take heede ye doe as I commaund them. The Priestes therefore may lay no more vppon the people then they had in commaundement from the Lorde. You maye well perceiue then that before Christ, men did iudge according too the Scripture, and as they were directed by it. You are greatly deceiued therfore ima­gining the scripture to be but a dead worde [Page] vntil a man come & iudge of it: for it hath a certaine truth in it, from the which if any man shoulde swarue in iudgement, yet should it remaine true al y^e notwithstāding: And if any should ioine in iudgement with the true meaning of it, yet should he adde nothing to the trueth thereof, which is the life of the worde. For the worde is the ly­uing voyce, and that which giueth life and authoritie vnto the other, euen as it falleth out in ciuil matters, that the iudges in all courtes are led by the lawe, what to thinke and pronounce of the matter that is brought before them: and if they shal geue sentence contrary to law, it shal not excuse them that they were iudges: but contrari­wise, beeyng charged that they haue dealt corruptly in any sentence, this shal cleare them, yf they can truely say that they haue doone nothyng but according to law, & that which the law will beare them in. You say that out of the Church, eue­ry man is a lyar: in the Church, the spirite of god and not man iudgeth, who was pro­mised to lead her into al trueth. The Apo­stle speaking to the church, saith that eue­ry man is a liar, & therefore no man is to [Page] be beleued for this cause only, because he is of the church, for the true Church is know­en to be the true Church, because she spea­keth not of her selfe but hath the woorde to testify of her. You remember what Chry­sostome hath saide before: Ex quo non legit haec scripta, sed a seipso loquitur, Chrisost. de san­cto et adorando spiritu. manife­stum est, quód non habet spiritum sanctum.

To your demaunde requiring the name of our Church, because al sectes say they be of the Church of Christ: I do answere, that their saying so without any further proofe, may not be preiudicial to vs herein who say no more then we are wel able to prooue.

To your demaunde requiring what ge­nerall councels our Churche hath holden: I answere,August. in Iohhn. tract. 13. that I would not refuse to satis­fie your request herein, if eyther the church might not be a true Churche, and yet hold no general councels: or a false church were cleared it should fall out by good proofe, that she had holden any generall councels.

To your demaund what miracles haue ben wrought by her: I answer with Augu­stine, Contra mirabiliarios cautū me fecit Deus meus, dicendo in nouissimis diebus ex­urgent [Page] Pseudoprophetae, facientes signa & portenta, ut inducant in errorem, si fieri pos­sit, etiā electos. My God (saith Augustine) hath armed me against those miracle ma­kers: when he saith that in the latter dayes, false Prophetes shall arise, doing signes & wonders, to deceiue if it were possible euen the very elect.

To your demaunde of what Churche this Churche of ours receiued the Scrip­tures, and what iust cause she had to depart from that Church, of whom she receiued the said Scriptures, and why he should not re­ceiue as wel at her handes the vnderstan­ding of the said Scriptures, as the verie Scriptures themselues, & what more cer­tainely she hath of the truth of the one, then of the other: I do answere, that she receiued the scriptures of your Churche, & the same cause to depart frō you, that Mary; Eliza­beth, Simeon, Ioseph, & Anna, with others had to depart from the Scribes and Pharisees, of whō they receiued the scrip­tures, & yet leauing them imbraced Christ & his doctrine. And she had also the same cause that they had, why she shoulde not re­ceiue the vnderstanding of the Scriptures [Page] from them, of whom she receiued the scrip­tures thēselues. For they refused the expo­sitions and glosses of the scribes & Phari­sies, albeit they receiued the Scriptures from them. She had likewise greater cer­tainty (euē as they had,) why she should be persuaded that you had corrupt the sence & meaning, rather then the worde and text it selfe, for they doubted not of the worde and text, that they receiued from the Pharisees and yet for all that reiected their expositi­ons, as contrarie to the trueth of that text, which they had deliuered vnto them.

To your last demaūd requiring to know whether there was euer frō the beginning an external Priesthood, & whether that ex­ternall Priesthood had not alwayes an ex­ternal sacrifice: I answer no, referring you for profe hereof vnto the x.Heb. 10. chap. of the He­brues, wher it is thus written. Sacrifice & offering, burnt offerings, and sinne of­feringes thou wouldest not haue: then saide he, loe I came to doe thy will O God; he taketh away the first, that hee may establish the seconde. By the which will we are sanctified, euen by the offering [Page] of the bodie of Iesus Christ once made. For with one offering hath he consecrated for euer, them that are sanctified. Nowe where remission of these thinges is, there is no more offering for sinne, These be the wordes of the Apostle, Whereby you may playnely discerne, that the externall Sa­crifice and offering from sinne, ceassed in our Sauiour Christe, as in him, who by that one oblation made once for all, did fully discharge the sinnes of his seruauntes.