Quest. I. Whether it had not been honester, and fairer dealing, to have added the Au­thor and Licencer's Name to M.S. his Booke, then to have omitted them.

I Affirme it.

• 1. because it testifieth a greater sincerity, especially in these Times.
• 2. Because it makes it appear more probably to the world, that it is not a Libel.
• 3. And that it conteineth nothing against the Law.
• 4. Because the Name of the Author giveth authority to the Book, if he be either learned or honest; and the omission thereof may cut off the Authority of it, and bring discredit unto it, especially when the Law for this effect ordaineth it to be added.
• 5. Because when it is suppressed, and the Book a Libell, it giveth too much adoe to the Magistrate to find out the Author, to censure and punish him con­dignly, according to his demerits.
• 6. Because the Holy Writers did so; and if their Names be omitted in some Books, we know not, whether it was with their consent, or whether they did not put to their names, howbeit not in quality of Canonicall Scripture: or per­adventure it was, because they were not the Authors, but as it were Gods Secre­taries, or Scribes; for the Holy Ghost dictated them what they had to write.
• 7. Because it hindreth men from being deceived in their moneys; for sundry times men because of specious Titles put before Books, buy them, and after­ward find nothing worth their money.
• 8. The adding of the name of the Author, and of the Licencer, with the Licence, will hinder the common people to be deceived in reading of hereticall and unsound in stead of Orthodox and sound Books; So that this being confi­dered, this Author should have done better that he had added his name and the Licence to his Book.

Quest. II. Whether Mr. Cranford might not justly Licence A.S. his Consid, and Answer to the Libell, &c.

I Susteine the first part of the Question, and deny the second.

As for the first it is evident.

• 1. Because it is conformed to Gods word, as we shall see hereafter.
• [Page 72]2. Because, that Answer is nothing else, but an Apologie for the Discipline of the Reformed Churches.
• 3. Because, it containeth nothing, contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England, or any other true Reformed Churches, only it hath some new Se­ctaries for Enemies.
• 4. Because, the Church of England evermore entertained Union with the Re­formed Churches, that were ruled by that Discipline; and they refused not one another to the Communion of the Sacraments.
• 5. Because, that a Bishop, and the rest of the Commissioners from England, at the Synod of Dordrecht, approved that Discipline, in the name of the Church of England.
• 6. Because in England it selfe, it hath been evermore approved by the King, and Parliament, who granted the Exercise thereof unto the French, Dutch, Ita­lian, and Spanish Churches, in this very City of London, and sundry other parts of this Kingdome.
• 7. At this present, Episcopall Government being put down, it standeth by Law approved, both by State and Church, as conforme unto Gods word.
• 8. The Kings Majesty likewise by consent of Parliament Licenced it in Scotland.

The second part of the Question may be proved by the contrary Arguments.

• 1. Because, it maintaineth a Discipline, that is not conforme to Gods word, which hath not one word of particular Churches, Independent one from another; of particular Church-Covenants, distinct from that of Grace; of not Baptizing Christians Children; of not admission of Faithfull men, and women, who are without Scandall, unto the Lords Table, &c.
• 2. Because, the Discipline it maintaineth, is repugnant to all other Disciplines of all other reformed, yea of all Christian Churches.
• 3. It containeth many things contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England, as they confesse themselves.
• 4. Because the Church of England never entertained any Union or Commu­nion with any Church ruled by that Discipline.
• 5. No Commissioners from England ever approved it.
• 6. It hath never been received in England by King or Parliament.
• 7. It hath never been put up here, nor standeth here Legally, as the other.

And therefore the first Legally might have been Licenced, and the other could not be Licenced.

QUEST. 3. Whether any man may not state and determine Questions agitated in Synods, before the Synods Determination.

M. S. BLames me mightily for stating some Questions now in agitation in the Synod.

To the contrary, I conceive, that herein I have done nothing amisse; But for the better stating and determining of this Question we must observe:

1. That there are two sorts of Questions, some that are already determined in Gods Word, and his Church also; Others that are not. 2. That there are some Determinations by publick Authority, as Lawes, Statutes, Ecclesiasti­call Canons, &c. and others particular, proceeding of private or particular mens Iudgements; The first binds and obliges them, who are subject unto them: the second cannot oblige any man to obedience; and so I say 1. That in Questions already determined in Gods Word by his Church, every man may determine, as God and the Church have determined.

• 1. Because God obliges us to determine our judgements, according to the Determinations of his Word; especially in things that are necessary to Salvation, for the very publication of the Gospell obligeth us to assent.
• 2. If every man determineth not, according to Gods Word, he sinneth.
• 3. If particular men determine not their Iudgement according to Gods Word, and because the thing beleeved is conforme to Gods Word, it is not an Act of Divine Faith.

In these Determinations, according to the Word, I say that the Church Determination is publick, 1. Because God hath endowed her with publick Authority, to determine according to the Determination of his Word. 2. Be­cause she Iudges not by private authority, as private men. 3. Because Suspen­sion from the Lords Table, &c. are not Acts of private but of publick Iudge­ment and authority. This Authority of the Church is not Imperiall, or Magi­steriall, but Ministeriall, because the Ministers of the Church be nothing else but Gods Ministers, or Servants, and not Lords in the Church.

The Determinations, and Iudgements of particular Persons are only parti­cular, and a Iudgement of Discretion. 1. Because they proceed not from pub­lick, but from private and particular persons, even when they proceed from a Minister. 2. Because they have not publick authority to oblige Congregati­ons, but themselves alone. 3. Their principall and intrinsecall ayme is not to be directions for others, but for themselves, and they doe not helpe to direct others in particular.

This M. S. objecteth, that if A. S. determine it, he anticipates upon the Assemblies Iudgement; but that he must not doe so.

Answ. I deny the Consequence; 1. for the Assemblies Iudgement is publick and mine particular. 2. It is already Iudged by the Church of this Kingdom [Page 74]that Presbyterian Discipline is not contrary to Gods Word; for if it were, it had never permitted it, to be practised or approved in England; as I have already shewed.

2. To the Minor I answer, That either by anticipating upon the Synods Iudgement, he understandeth an anticipation by a publick Iudgement, and that is impossible to me, for my Iudgement is not publick, but particular; or by a particular Iudgement, and then it is not properly an Anticipation; or if he will needs have it to be so I answer; that if I or any other Christian have lear­ned any truth in Gods Word, we are all bound to determine our particular Iudgements according to it.

Neither can the long Examination of businesses in Synods, which proceedeth from Hereticks, Sectaries, and others their crafts, malice, or infirmities, hin­der us from determining the truths according to our particular Iudgements; for if it could, then whensoever any Heretick should start up, and dogmatize against the first Articles of our Faith, denying Gods Infinity, Simplicity, Perfe­ction, Eternity, Immutability, his Wisdome, Decrees, Power, or Pro­vidence, and his opinion were to be examined in a Synod, we must begin to doubt and suspend our Iudgements, as so many Pyrrhonians about all those points, which already we beleeved by Faith, and stand gaping for some new Determination of the Articles of our faith from Synods; And so Synods should be most pernicious in making us to lose our Faith, which before we had.

In a word, we have received already the Determination and Resolution of the Independents questions in Gods Word in other Protestant Churches, and the approbation of those Determinations here by the Church of England. And the Discussion of them in the Synod, is not to change Gods Ordinance, but to give contentment unto weake Consciences, if they can receive it.

Again, If this Argument be strong, I retort it against his Sect: If the Quinque Ecclesian Ministers, M. S. and C. C. determine these Questions, as they doe in their printed Bookes here, and Sermons also, as we are credibly infor­med, they also anticipate upon the Assemblies Iudgement: But the First is true, Ergo, so must the Second also be.

Again, Either this man with the rest of the Sectaries are minded to acqui­esce to the Determination of the Synod, or not: If the first, it is well, it is more then I expect of them, I pray God they deceive me: if not, what needeth he to sight so much for the Determination of the Synod, which he is determined not to stand unto? would not this seeme to be said in derifi­on of the Synod?

2. Obj. A. S. In determining the Question, taketh it out of the Assem­blies hands.

Answ. I deny the Consequence, for it is in their hands by way of publick Authority, publicke Iudgement, and publicke Determination; Now A. S. [Page 75]or any other particular Determination taketh not away the publick, and Au­thoritative Determination, Iudgement, or Authority.

As for the stating of the Question, this man will not permit me, and conse­quently no particular man, so much as to state it in particular, and that for the same reason: But if we may according to our particular Iudgement Determine it, how much more may we state it, since it can no waiess be Determined, unlesse first it be stated? Can the Synods stating and Deter­mining the question, free us of the obligation whereby we are bound to state it, and Determine it according to Gods Word.

QUEST. 4. Whether the Quinqu' Ecclesian Ministers publish this their Apologeticall Nar­ration seasonably, yea or not, against M. S. p. 24, 25. &c. that affirmes it.

I Maintaine the Negative part of the Question; his Reasons are; 1. Because, before the publication thereof, the Calumnies, mistakes, mis­apprehensions of their Opinions, and many of those mists that were gathered about them, or rather cast upon their Persons in their absence, began by their presence againe, and the blessing of God upon them, in a great measure to scatter and vanish, without speaking a word for themselves and cause, as the five Ministers say in their Apologeticall Narration.

M. S. p. 24. of his Booke Answereth 1. That that scattering of mists doth but relate to the people, and onely to some of them, viz. Those that pro­fesse or pretend the power of godlinesse, as appeareth by the precedent period.

A. S. Reply 1. The precedent period hath no relation to this, for it endeth with a full point. 2. It is not the precedent period, that should in­terpret the subsequent, but rather the subsequent that should serve for in­terpretation to the precedent, unlesse yee put the Explication before the Text. 3. Because it is said absolutely. 4. They themselves beleeve now at this present, that this relateth to others, as yee may see, p. 15. where they speak of those, who incited the State, not to allow them a peaceable practise of their Conscience; and of some others, who did write Bookes against them, whom they accuse also of mis-apprehensions, and mistakes of their opinions. 5. Put the case it were so, yet was it not so seasonable for them then to write, as before.

M. S. Answereth 1. That many of these mists and not all. 2, That they did but begin to scatter.

A. S. Iust, but it was not so seasonable to write, when any of them, as when none of them begun to scatter, or after, as before they begun to scat­ter: so to speake Morally, that Apology was not seasonable, since it was lesse seasonable, then it would have been formerly.

M. S. Their motions were like the lowrings of an unconstant [Page 76]morning, in which the mists ascend, and anon descend, and by and by ascend, and turne into a Scottish mist, that will wet an English man to the skin, as our usuall Proverb is.

A. S. 1. This is but a Simile, Quod nil probat. 2. It is to be noted here, how he noteth this Proverbiall jeer of a Scottish mist in a different sort of letter, as conteyning some particular mystery, and consequently worthy of the Readers particular observation. 3. Yet I may say, that the Independent mist is more able to drown all England, Scotland, and Ireland, then a Scot­tish mist the outward part of an English mans cloathes; and so will all true English, and Christian hearts judge.

If any thing have befallen you since the change of the time of your Exile (more imaginary then reall) it was your owne fault, in seducing the people, in a clanculary way, and in making of clandestine Assemblies and Conventi­cles, which good Ministers could not endure, seeing that nothing could con­tent you, unlesse that all should stoop under you.

Neither hath your Apology any waies diminished any ill, but rather ta­ken away the good opinion they had of you.

Afterwards M. S. accuseth not only the people, but also Mr. Rutherford, and Mr. Herle, and sundry other Ministers.

A. S. his second reason is, They who are called by the Parliament, and admitted by the Assembly of Divines into the Assembly (howsoever that cal­ling was to finde them good, and not to make them so) are supposed by them to be innocent, and not culpable (and especially after that they have sate long in the Assembly of Divines, with honour and good respect) and consequently they are sufficiently vindicated from all false Accusations, and have no need to Apologize for themselves, that being farre away more suffici­ent to justifie them before the world, then any Apology whatsoever, that they can write for themselves.

But the Apologists were so called, &c. Ergo.

This is the sense, and forme by me intended of my Argument in the fourth Observation, and not that that M. S. putteth upon it.

As for his instance of the Bishops against the first Proposition, that they were called by the Parliament to the Assembly, and yet they were not for all that supposed to be innocent, or vindicated, I Answer 1. That the Bi­shops were not admitted into the Assembly of Divines, as they were. 2. If they had been admitted, and continued as long as they, without reproach, how can any doubt but that their sitting there should have served them for a sufficient justification and vindification of their honour, in foro externo, be­fore men, since it is not morally to be presumed, that such a grave Senate will call, or such a holy Assembly of such Learned and Reverend Divines will admit and retaine so long together any scandalous persons in their As­sembly; So this being testimonium alienum, non proprium, and publicum non [Page 77]privatum, without all doubt it was sufficient to justifie them, and more then any thing they can say in their owne behalfe; since they cannot speake as Iudges, but as Parties, who are evermore justly suspected.

A. S. 3. Reason. He, or they, who are sent by authority of Parliament into Scotland, with the Parliaments Commissioners, to treat of an extraordinary great Reformation of Religion in England and Ireland, & for the preservation of the Religion in Scotland, in bringing them all to uniformity according to Gods Word, and the Example of the best Reformed. Churches, and have ended the businesse with them, are not morally to be presumed, to be culpa­ble, but sufficiently freed from all filthy aspersions, in matter of Religion, that can have been laid upon them, at least in foro externo, wherein only they can be justified by men in this life; for it is not Morally to be presumed, that the Parliament would have imployed any, but Orthodox men, and good men in a matter of so high a concernment, and consequently they needed not to Apologize for themselves, or if they doe so, it was unseasonably done. But the Apologizers are such men.

If it be said, only one of them was such a man:

Answ. It is all one; 1. For in matter of Religion, they lye all under one and the same notion. 2. At least that one needed not to Apologize as he did.

4. Because, being minded to make an Apology, they should either not have made it at all, being Members' of the Assembly; or have done it before their Admittance thereunto, or after the Dissolving of the Assembly. This had been a great deale more seasonable; for it is not fit for a man, to Apologize for him­self in a cause, wherein he sitteth as Iudge, or when he sitteth as Iudge.

5. We can finde no ordinary Example of such proceedings, either in Scripture or Ecclesiasticall History.

6. Because they did it in a season, when the Church & State stood in need of the Brotherly assistance of all the best reformed Churches; and in that very nick of time, they under-valued them all, as not having the power of Piety, as they themselves; censured their Ecclesiasticall Discipline, as not agreeable unto Gods Word, and called them Calvinians; whereof we have a sufficient proofe, in a Letter sent to the Assembly, from the Synod of Wa­lachria, wherein it complaineth much against this Booke, because of the of­fence, that the Reformed Churches received thereby.

7. Because it was published against the Scots Discipline in that very nick of time, most unseasonable, when they were invited to come into England, and when they came to hazard their lives for the Church and State of Eng­land, and for the lives and states of these very men, who in the meane while were writing against their Discipline.

QUEST. 5. Whether the Quixqu' Ecclesian Ministers should not have done better, to have published their Opinions by way of Thoses, or in some other Didactick way, ra­ther then by an Apologeticall Narration.

IMaintaine the Affirmative part; 1. Because that of all other, is the most accurate, and easiest way, to manifest cleerly their Opinions by, both to the learned and ignorant.

2. Because all other waies of teaching beget confusion; for in them we cannot discerne that which is Substantiall, from that which is Circumstantiall; as we may see in Comedies, Tragedies, all sort of Verses, long Speeches, Prayers, Dialogues, &c.

3. Because in this Apologeticall Narration it selfe many things are inser­ted, which touch not the Businesse at all.

4. Because in all other Synods in our Times, Divines proceeded ever­more in a Didactick way.

5. Because this their proceeding keepeth us in perpetuall perplexity, so as we can never come to know their Opinions; and what ever we can say, we can never bring them to any Declaration of their Opinions, but that they have ever-more some Evasions and complaints, of great mistakes in us, whereof, if any such be, they are the cause themselves; the which sort of dea­ling is not worthy of the man of God, but proper unto Hereticks and Schis­maticks, no waies desirous of the Truth, but of strife and contention.

6. Because in it there is much fraud in relating a part only of their story and Opinions, and not the whole, in hiding the black side of the Cloud; yea it contey­neth some manifest untruths in their Relation, and that even where God and man are called to witnesse; All which a very learned and Godly Divine ma­keth appeare in his Anrapologia, and offers to shew under the hands of the Independents, yea and of some of the Quinqu' Ecclesian Ministers themselves.

QUEST. 6. Whether the Independents or Quinqu' Ecclesian Ministers come neare to Ana­baptists, and Anabaptists to them.

C. C. and M. S. deny it.

By Anabaptists I understand not all sort of Anabaptists, as those, that be also Arminians and Socinians, but those who differ from them only in delaying and reiterating of Baptisme (as the word it selfe implyeth) who are very many in number, and make up the grea­test Sect amongst them here in London, and in other parts of England; for this Proposition is Indefinite and in a contingent matter, which is ta­ken [Page 79]by Philosophers to be equipollent to a particular one; and so I cut off the Objection of C.C. who bringeth me an instance from them, who are Ar­minians and Socinians, of whom I propound not the Question.

And the Question being stated, I maintain the Affirmative part; 1. because they differ only in this one point; neither can any of these two Divines, viz. M. S. or C. C. shew me any further difference.

2. Because these Anabaptists themselves of whom I speake deny it not, but avow it constantly.

3. If it were otherwise, the Independents would not so highly commend them, for Holy men, as they doe in their Sermons, as I shall make it appeare, by good and sufficient Witnesses, Auditors of their Sermons, to any man, that desireth to be further informed, or to whosoever will call it in question.

4. Because, however they were oftentimes desired to joyne with the Pres­byterians to condemne them, they would never doe it.

5. M. S. in answering my sixt Consideration, where I accuse them of that, seemeth by his silence to cry guilty; yea C. C. seemeth to acknowledge it, p. 10. § 3. of his Booke, when he saith, That some London Anabaptists hold Universall Redemption, and that with a doubting Adverb, if information may be beleeved; Ergo he supposeth, that some of them here about Lon­don beleeve it not.

He Objecteth, that some Anabaptists here doe question, and scruple the lawfull Warre of the Parliament, which the Independents doe not.

Answ. This is not Questio juris, but facti.

2. Not of any point of Doctrine in generall, but of this particular Warre, which some here, yea of the same Doctrine with you, and us also scruple at.

3. Because sundry Independents have scrupled at the Covenant; from whence may be inferred, that they scrupled at the lawfulnesse of this warre grounded upon the Covenant; and neverthelesse yee owne them for yours.

4. Because you say, that some only scrupled: But some neither scrupled at it, nor beleeved the Universality of Redemption, who are more in number and Authority; Ergo At least this great number of Anabap­tists, differ very little from you; since they differ from you in this only point; And so I have done you no wrong. Neither say I, as you untruely will make the world beleeve, that yee are Anabaptists, but that yee come very neare up to them. As for that Question, which he propounds, whether every one that scruples at the Baptizing of his Childe, be to be Excommuni­cated out of a Presbyterian Church, or to be accounted solely for that Opinion unregenerate, and in state of Damnation.

Answ. This Question is not to the purpose, and yet to give some content­ment to this Scruple, if he can receive it, I Answer 1. That here is Falla­ciae plurium Interrogationum, whereby he propounds many Questions as one, [Page 80]to the end that giving but one Answer, he may intangle me, by his sophisti­cations: and therefore I answer to every one a part, 1. To the first that the Anabaptists, whose cause he pleadeth, scruple not, but define it, as certaine. 2. If after sufficient conviction, and their scruple abundantly satisfied, they remain pertinacious, and will not be baptised amongst us, it is no more a reall but a pretended scruple, accompanied with a reall pertinacious breach of charity, and a Schisme, which meriteth the sentence of Excommunication. To the 2. it is not to us to judge absolutely that he is not regenerate or that he shall be damned: but well thus, that the way, wherein he is, qua talis, is not the way of Regeneration, or of Salvation: but of damnation, according to the ordinary course of the Gospell, so long as he continueth unpenitent, and so contemneth the Church of God, instructing him according to Gods Word: And that if he be a visible subject, or Citizen in Gods Church, which is his Kingdom, and City, he must be subject unto the Lawes and Govern­ment thereof, otherwise be gone to some other.

QUEST. 7. Whether the whole Church, and every member thereof hath the power of the Keyes, or full Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction.

LEast as blind men, we should quarrell one with another, not knowing up­on what grounds, or wherefore; it will not be amisse that we expound the termes of the Question, then state it, and afterwards we shall easily per­ceive, what is the force of our Reasons, and those of our Brethren, and of the two which be the weightiest, and beare downe the scale.

As for the termes; As in all others, so in this Question there be two, 1. the Subject, and that is the whole Church, and every member thereof. 2. the Predicate, or Attribute, and that is power of the Keyes, or Ecclesiasti­call Iurisdiction.

As for the word Church, or Ecclesia, I take it, 1. generally for any As­sembly, or company of men, or Angels evocated or convocated together. 2. More strictly, for any Company of men any waies gathered together up­on whatsoever occasion, or for whatsoever end, Act, 19.39. 3. for a holy company of men, and Angels: so it is taken by Divines, and it may be defi­ned, a Company of Angels and men, called out of their naturall estate, by con­venient meanes, to supernaturall felicity.

The words, Men and Angels expresse the materiall part of the Church, viz. intellectuall Creatures, which are only capable of calling, and of supernatu­rall Glory, whereunto they are called.

The words following declare the forme of the Church.

By their naturall estate or condition, I understand either their estate of integrity, as that of the good Angels, who continued in their Originall puri­ty, and of the wicked, who afterwards apostatized, and of Adam & Eve before [Page 81]their fall; or of corruption, such as is that of all mankind after our first sin.

By the word, called, here, must be understood the act of vacation by Gods word, either internall, speaking unto Angels, or mens Consciences, by the light of nature, or supernaturall Inspirations, 1 Cor. 1.9. 1 Pet. 5.10. 1 Thes. 2.12. and 4.7. or externall, such as is the vocall, and written word of God, or any other externall signe, presented to our outward Senses by him; as 1 Jo. 1.3. 2 Thes. 2.4. Heb. 1.1. And therefore the Elect, before they be borne. and called, are not properly or actually, but meerly, potentially, and vertually members of the Church, 1. For how can he be a member of the Church who is not yet in Rerum natura? 2. By the same reason, the Church should have been actually before the Creation of the world, and before she was created, from all eternity; for God elected his Church, from all eternity: 3. Men of age should be actually members of Christs Church without Faith; for they have not actually Faith by Election, but by their efficacious Vocation. 4. And howsoever the Decree of Predestination, or Election, be requisite, and be the first cause of the Church, and of all the members thereof, and it being put, all the second Cau­ses must needs be: yet makes it not them to be, when it is its self, but in their own time and in due season, when it is put in execution by some externall act of Gods Almighties power, w ^ch can not be eternal, as his Decree; but temporal. 5. Because Gods Church is an House, a Family, and a City, which can not be built of stones, that are not, or composed of Domesticks, and Citizens, that are not in this world. 6. A man cannot be the Brother of Christ and member of his church, before he be regenerate, or born againe, how much lesse, before he be generated, or born; unlesse ye will say, that he may have his second birth or generation before he have the first?

Out of this naturall estate, &c. here is expressed Terminus a quo, et ad quem, from whence, and whereunto the Church, or the members thereof are called; Terminus a quo, or from whence, is from the estate of Nature pure and in­corrupt, not incorruptible as was that of the Angels, and of man before his Fall: or of corrupt nature, such as hath been that of mankinde since their Fal. Terminus ad quem, or whereunto they are called, or which can intend, is Grace in this life, and supernaturall Glory in that to come.

By supernaturall Glory must be understood supernaturall Beatitude, or fe­licity, which is the last aym, their summum bonum, or greatest good and per­fection, whereunto they tend, or which they can intend: And this, in respect of entire and pure or immaculate Nature, is absolutely called Beatitude or Feli­city: but in regard of corrupt Nature, Salvation; for it is not a man without sin, as Christ, or Angels that never sinned, but Adam & his posterity, that are said to be saved from their sins, and misery whereunto by sin they are subject.

Means are called convenient, when they are fit to effect that which by them is intended; such in respect of Angels was the Law of Nature, printed in their Understanding, answerable to their spirituall Nature; [Page 82]some Supernatural Precepts also, for they were bound to beleeve the Trinitie: answerable in Adam before his Fall was the Law, and such respect to the spirituall and corporall nature, whereof he was compounded, as the Morall Law, and some supernaturall Precepts to beleeve the Trinity, &c. proportionate to the end and aym, viz. supernaturall glory, whereunto he should tend, and which he should intend; And in regard of all mankind since our Fall, is the Covenant of Grace, and the means to fulfill it, as Faith, Hope, and Charity.

The Church in this vast and large signification contains 1. in it self the com­pany of Angels, 1. because the Scripture sayes so, Heb. 12.22, 23. 1 Pet. 1.12. 2. because they are our Fellow-servants and our Brethren, Apoc. 19.10. and 22.9. & they belong to one society with us, 3. because the Angels are our Con-disciples in studying the Gospel with us. 1 Pet. 1.12. 4. Because they are Subjects with us of one Celestiall Republike, and Citizens of one Celesti­all City: 5. Because we aspire to the same Beatitude and Felicity with them, viz. to the vision of Gods face, and ardent Charity: 6. Because, in respect of our spirituall part, and the Faculties thereof, our Intellect and Will, we are capable of the same union with God. 7. Because Christ is head of the Angels; as well as of Men, Col. 2.19. Eph. 4.15.8. Because he is their Creator, Con­servator, Mediator. God gathered in one, all things in Christ, both which are in Heaven, and which are in Earth, and every thing in them, Eph. 1.10.9. Because the Angels adore Christ, Hebr. 1.6.10. Because all things, yea, the Angels are subject to Christ, Hebr. 1.7.

2. It contains men in Heaven and in Earth; for the Church in Earth and in Heaven differ onely, as a man travelling, and one arrived to his Port or home. All these that are, or shall be saved, those that are already born, and to be born; regenerate, or to be regenerate, howsoever they that are not yet born, or regenerate, be not actually members of the Church, till they be born and regenerated.

This Church in regard of its materiall parts, integrity, and quantity, may be distinguished, 1. into the Catholike or universall, and particular Church.

The Catholike Church is that, which before we defined, composed of all the Elect, Angels and Men.

2. Again it is to be observed in passing of this Word, Catholike Church, that it is not a term of Scripture; nor was any man called a Catholike in the Apostles time, if we beleeve Pacianus epist. 1. Ad Sempronianum; neither in their time was the Christian Faith spread Catholikely, or Universally through all the World: and hence many Protestants infer, that the Creed, I mean that of the Apostles, was not framed by them: Neverthelesse we have some terms in Scripture equivalent unto it, as that of [...], Heb 12.23. that signifies a generall Assembly; Item the City of the living God, the Heavenly Jerusalem, ver. 22. the Church of the first-born, which are written in Heaven, &c. The Church then is called Ʋniversall, 1. in respect of her Intrinsecall, and Essen­tiall [Page 83]form, viz. internall vertues. viz. Faith, Hope, Charity, and the Spirit of Christ, which be all, and the same in all the members thereof; for howsoever the Church, in respect of some Gifts, otherwayes called [...], and by the Schoolmen, gratia gratis data, is distributed by Christ unto some of her members, not so much for their own, as for other mens use and salvation to be a corpus heterogeneum dissimilare, an Organicall Body composed of di­vers parts of different names and natures one from another, and from the whole Body having different functions, and operations, as of prophecy, go­vernment, of Miracles &c. as a man of his head, legs, and arms, whereof the one is not of like nature or like name with an other, or with the man; for the leg is not the head, nor a man as the Apostle declares: neverthelesse in regard of her spirituall and saving gifts, as Faith, Hope, Charity, &c. wherein consists her intrinsecall form, conferred upon the Elect, for their own use, otherwayes called by Schoolmen, gratia gratum faciens, Grace that makes us acceptable to God it is totum homogeneum, or similare, a similary Body, Composed of the like parts, whereof every one hath the same name, and nature one with another, and with the whole Body; for all the members of Christ have the like Faith, inclining to the like Acts of Beleef; the same Mysteries; and a like Charity, inclining to the like Acts of love to all men, and especially to the Houshold of Faith: So every particular Church is a Church, one as another, and as the universall Church, I speak here of the redeemed Church; for the Church of Angels, and of men, before their Fall, be not parts homogeneall, with the redeemed Church, because of their dissimulary Covenant, and intrin­secall formes and vertues.

Item, the Church may be denominated universall, in regard of her ex­trinsecall and accidentall forme, consisting 1. in the externall profession of her intrinsecall Christian vertues, by confession of her Faith, Hope, and exer­cise of Charity, and holinesse of life. 2. In her participation of the holy Sacra­ments, according to Gods Word. 3. In her extrinsecall sound Discipline, and Government, which should be in every Church. Againe, the Church may be universall, in respect of some Circumstances, viz. of time, place, per­sons, and Ages; 1. of time, because the Christian Church from her first insti­tution by Christ till the end of the world shall never decay; 2. of place, not positively, as if it were in all places, but negatively, because it is not excluded from any place, as that of the old Testament, limited within the confines of the Holy Land, but spread through all the world, Psal. 19.5. Mat. 26.13. Col. 1.6.3. of Persons of all Ages, Sects and Conditions, for no man is exclu­ded from the Gospell; neither Iew, nor Greeke; neither Servant, nor Free­man; neither Male, nor Female, Gal. 3.28.

2. And it may be distinguished according to her materiall, or integrant parts, into the Church of Angels, and of men: But the Scripture has very little of that of the Angels, so as we may let it passe.

[Page 84] 3. That of men may be distinguished according to the state, and conditi­on thereof into that, which is Militant here on earth, fighting against Sathan, and Triumphant and victorious in Heaven, reigning eternally with God.

4. The Militant, according to the state thereof and Covenant, is distin­guished into that, which was before the Fall, & that after the Fall: The Church before the Fall was composed of Adam and Eve alone, and governed by the Law of Nature, and some supernaturall Precepts: and called to supernaturall felicity, I say composed of Adam and Eve alone, viz. actually; for howso­ever before the creation of Eve, God or Christ was his head; yet could he not be his Head as of a Church, 1. For a Church is a company not of the Head and one member, but of the Head and many members, Rom. 12.5. Eph. 1.22, 23.2. Because before the Creation of the Woman, there was no symbolicall Law, nor Sacraments of the Covenant, ordained by God, as the Tree of Life. 3. Because the Church, is a Family, a City, a Kingdome, which cannot consist of one member, Col. 1.13. Rom. 14.17. 1 Tim. 3.15. Apo. 21.2. Matth. 13.11. Item a body composed of sundry members, 1 Cor. 12. a flocke, 1 Pet. 5.2. which is not composed of one sheep; yea, after the Creation of Eve, it was not a perfect or compleat Church: but in fieri, ten­ding to perfection, by the propagation of mankind, and perfected in its fieri when it was breeding; for to a perfect Church, is requisite a Ruler or Ru­lers; and some to be ruled, and not one alone. 2. Because the Church is a Society, like to that of a Kingdom, or a City, which can not consist of two persons only. 3. Because howsoever three may compound a Colledge, yet can they not make up an Ecclesiasticall, or politicall Society. 4. Because in a Church there must be power of Excommunication, which cannot subsist in two; for if the one should Excommunicate the other, the Church should perish, which is repugnant to the nature of Excommunication, which is not given to the destruction but to the conservation of the Church, 1 Cor. 5. 5. Be­cause it was imperfect in its ayme, in respect of man, for it brought no man to felicity or glory. 6. Because to every Reall Church correspond some Re­presentative Church, which is a sign of the Reall, and not altogether the same, but there could be no representative Church before the Fall, correspondent to it, different from it selfe, because these were but two persons not differing from themselves, notwithstanding it might have been represented by an Am­bassadour, but not by a Church.

The Militant Church after the fall is that, which is redeemed by Christ, cal­led in him, to the forgivenesse of their sins, and eternall Glory.

5. This in regard of time and state is either before Christ, as that of the Old Testament, wherein Christ was obscurely revealed, or of the New, since his comming, wherein he is more cleerly revealed, which for this cause is called the Christian Church; partly because it is since Christ, partly because Christ is more visibly revealed unto her; partly because he in Person revea­led [Page 85]himselfe and his Gospel, for the Law was given by Moses, but Grace was given by Iesus Christ, Iohn 1.

The particular Church is only a part of the Universall or totall Church; And as the universall is universall, 1. In regard of Time, which comprehends all the Churches of all times. 2. Of place, which comprehends the Churches of all places, or through all the world. 3. Or of Persons, which compre­hends all forts of persons: so the particular, is either 1. in regard of time, which only comprehends in its selfe, the Churches of a certaine time, as that of the Old Testament, which was before the comming of Christ in the flesh; and that of the New, which is since his comming: So we call the Church, Primitive, that which was before our times, immediatly after Christ his com­ming, and some time after. 2. Or in regard of places, as when we say, that a Church is Nationall, which is in one Kingdome or Republick; Provinciall, that is in one Province; and Parochiall, which is confined within the limits of one Parish. 3. Or in regard of Persons, which comprehends a certaine number of persons, of one or divers places.

Here it is to be observed; 1. That the Church may be denominated uni­versall, or particular, either absolutely, or respectively in relation to another bigger or lesse: so Absolutely the universall Church comprehends in its selfe all the Churches of all times; of all places; of all forts of Persons, Angels and men; of all Estates, or conditions and Covenants; As that in the Covenant of integrity; naturall, or supernaturall, as of Angels and men before their Fall, and that in the state of sin under the Covenant of Grace; and in the state of Glory. And according to this consideration, the Church of the An­gels, is one particular Church; That of Mankind, another; The Trium­phant, and Militant, two others; and in a word, all the parts thereof, may be called particular Churches.

Respectively the Church of Mankind, is an universall Church, in respect of its parts, as of that before and after the Fall; the Triumphant and Militant: so the Church after the Fall, is universall in respect of that of the Old and New Testament, which be its parts: and the Christian in respect of its parts in Heaven and on Earth; of the Primitive, and that of subsequent times: that which is in all the world in respect of its parts, in divers Kingdomes, Pro­vinces, &c. But that which is most to the purpose in this our Discourse, is the Catholick Christian Church here upon earth.

6. Againe, the Militant Church (whether she be considered, according to her universality and totality, or particularity in her severall parts, and Assemblies) in respect of her internall and externall forme, is either visible, or invisible. The invisible Church is that which cannot be seene, but only is beleeved by Faith. The visible is that which we see or behold; where it is to be observed: 1. That the word visible, is not to be taken here strictly, for the object of the sight alone, or the word, see, or behold; for the act [Page 86]thereof; but in a more full signification, for that which any waies is percep­tible by the eye, or any externall, or internall Sense, or by naturall Reason; such as are the confession and profession of Christian vertues, the exercise of their externall Acts; whereof some be apprehended by the sight and Eye, as the acts of Charity; some by the hearing and Eare, as the confession of Faith; some by feeling, as the assistance and attendance upon the Sicke; some by the internall Senses; some by Act of Reason only: and the reason of this is, be­cause the word visible must signifie all that, which, is denyed by invisible; now invisible signifies a negation of all, that can be apprehended by any Sense, or Act of Reason, Ergo the word visible must signifie that, which can be ap­prehended by any Sense or Act of Reason, so that it belong to the Externall Form of the Church, which represents the internall Forme thereof.

2. Besides that, it is here to be observed, that the visible Church of it self is e­vermore visible and conspicuous, but by Accident becomes sometimes invisible, latent, obscure, and unseene; and that 1. either because of the persecution Shee suffers by her enemies, when Shee hides her selfe in the Wildernesse; or 2. by reason of her slitting from one place to another, as when Shee went from Hie­rusalem to Pella; or 3. because of the weaknesse of the sight of the Seer, as in Eli, 1 King. 9. verse 4. for want of sight, as to those, to whom, as the Gospel, so the Church professing the Gospell, is hid and invisible, 2 Cor. 2, 3, 4.

3. Finally, It is not to be omitted, that this is not a Division of the Churchin­to two Species, or two integrant parts, or any waies into parts really, but Ac­cidentally distinguished; For a Church altogether one, in the same time, and place, and according to the same parts may be, howsoever according to divers consi­derations, and Formes, which be the grounds of divers considerations, it may be Visible and Invisible, as the Church of Geneva, which is visible in respect of her externall forme, viz. Confession of the true Christian Faith, the profession thereof and other christian vertues; Item in respect of her Discipline, &c. And the same Church in respect of her internall Forme, viz. Faith, Hope, Charity, the Spirit of Christ, &c: which be spirituall qualities altogether in­visible, in the sense before declared, is altogether invisible.

7. The Militant Church, both in her totality, and partiality, may be divi­ded into two integrant parts, viz. into the Over-seers, that preach, teach, rule, &c. and the Flock, which is over-seene: And they be the two princi­pall parts, concurring to its integrity, without the which it cannot be a totall or whole visible Church: and therefore a Church without Oversseers is not a whole visible Church: I say a whole or totall Church; for without Pastors it may be a totum essentiale, i.e. essentially a Church, for Pastors are not ab­solutely necessary for the essence, but for the integrity of a Church. Item, I say without Over-seers; 1. All Over-seers, for it may be, that a Church may subsist without Pastors alone, or Doctoss alone, or Rulers or Elders alone; or Deacons alone, but not without all.

[Page 87] 8. The Militant visible Church, whether it be conceived in its universality and totality, or in its particularity in severall Congregations, is either Reall, or Representative.

The Reall Militant Church is any visible Church here upon Earth, com­posed of all its reall Professors of the Gospel.

The Representative Church, is an Assembly of certaine Persons, or Church-Officers, in an Ecclesiasticall Iudicatory, chosen out of the whole Body of the Reall Church, to represent it, as it is; such be the Sessions, or Consisto­ries, the Synods, Provinciall, and Nationall.

As for the Reall visible Church, some thinke that it is very probable, that it is never altogether without Iustifying Faith: but it is probable, that where there be very small Congregations of seven or eight persons, they may be all without Faith, and especially, where the Church is corrupt, or where the Members are all vicious and dissolute: Their conjecture will hold more pro­bable, in great Congregations, in Provinciall, and Nationall Churches. But in a Representative Church, composed of very few Church-Officers, it is very probable, that sometimes, they may all be without Faith, howsoever they re­present a Church of Reall Beleevers; for to represent Reall Beleevers, it is not absolutely necessary, that they, that are to represent them, be Beleevers, or have the same essentiall and internall Forme with those, whom they repre­sent; but that they have the externall confession and profession of their Faith, whereby they represent them; nor represent they their Faith, but their pro­fession of faith: So the Image of Caesar represents really Caesar, without any humane nature, such as is in Caesar: and so may men without Faith re­present them, that have Faith.

By the word Church we must understand the Militant Christian, particu­lar, and reall Church, consisting of one Congregation; These being presup­posed, I put this Conclusion: All Persons in a Church, or the whole Colle­ctive Body thereof have not Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction.

1. They have not the power to exercise it.

• 1. Because, we read no such thing in Scripture, viz. that ever God com­mitted the Government of the Church to every idle Fellow, that is a mem­ber thereof.
• 2. Because, it is contrary to the generall Ordinance of God, 1 Tim. 3. that all Church-Officers be examined and tryed before their Admission; And to the practise of the Old Testament, in the religion of the Levites, that served five yeares in their Apprenticeship.
• 3. Because every particular member of the Church hath not the Ability to Iudge, or Rule, because of his ignorance, and want of learning, for every one in the Church cannot be learned; for some there be that needs are spi­rituall, some that be carnall; some Babes in Christ, some men: some have need of milke, some of meat, 1 Cor. 3.1, 2, 3.
• [Page 88]4. Because of their imprudence, for some of the vulgar are somewhat pre­cipitate and rash in the examination of matters, others very slow in their judgement, some in their speech, and some in all: which is not convenient in so grave matters, in Iudging the Iudgements of the Lord.
• 5. Because some are vicious, and culpable of the faults, or crimes, that are to be Iudged and condemned in others, and therefore are not fit Iudges, to Iudge them.
• 6. Many in the Congregation may be friends, Kinsmen, or allyed with the party that is to be Iudged; and so partiall: wherefore some of the Congre­gation, at the least in that case, are to be excluded: and by Consequence, the simple Title of Christianity, and profession thereof, or to be a member of the Church, gives not all christians this right, but some other thing.
• 7. If every one of the Church may Iudge, or exercise Ecclesiasticall Iu­risdiction, then women also, whom Saint Paul commands to hold their peace in the Church, 1 Cor. 14.34. and to be subject in obedience without Iurisdiction.
• 8. All distracted men, and babes should have power to Iudge; and so those that are without Iudgment shold Iudge since they are members of the Church.

It may be answered, that they admit not babes, but those only that are in age, and apparently regenerated.

Inst. But then every member of the Church hath power to Iudge; but men distracted are in age, Ergo they have power to Iudge. It may be answered, that they understand that those only, that are in age, and have the use of reason should be admitted.

Inst. 1. But when hath a man the use of Reason? how shal they define that? It is commonly defined by Philosophers and others, the age of seven yeares, which will make no very able Ecelesiasticall Senator: here the Scripture is desicient, & they will admit nothing in Discipline, but that which is comman­ded by Christ. 2. What if a man in his old age, begin to dote, they may an­swer, that then he is excluded because reason failes him. Inst. Then he must be declared not sitting, which may breed division. Jnst. Item, a man may be in age, and yet little skilled in Divinity, for to Iudge in matter of Heresie, and be more vitious then when he was a childe. And if a man be Iudged by babes, children, fooles, and doting old men, it is to be feared, especially if the Iudged be rich, that the Iudgement be the cause rather of division, then con­cord, so this Discipline being established, all Schismes may break forth con­troversies and contentions. They may answer that they establish, these that are really, or apparently in judgement of charity Saints, as it may be collected from the Rom. c. 1.2. 1 Cor. 1. Eph. 1. Phil. in the beginning of the chapters.

Reply. But every particular man, in every particular Congregation of the Visible Church, whereof we only dispute, is not, nor can in spea­king morally as falleth out ordinarily be a Saint; 1. Because the [Page 89]Church is compared to a Ground, whereof one part is by the way side, the other stony, another thorny, another good; To a Ground, wherin growes Wheat, and Tares; To a Draw-Net, receiving good and bad fishes, Mat. 13. to a Society of wise, and foolish Virgins, Mat. 25. And to a House, wherein there are Vessels to honour and dishonour. There must be Offences, or slanders, saies Christ. Math. 18.7. 2. Howbeit they were all Saints, yet should it not follow thereupon, that they are, all learned, prudent, judicious, and endowed with other gifts to judge, either in matters of Doctrine in Creating of Ministers, and in Excommunicating of Hereticks; or of Discipline, which sometime requires some knowledge of the Civill law, as in Cases of Matrimonie, &c.

As for the Passages of St. Paul; 1. I deny, that he calls all the Members of the Church, Saints Formally; but the whole Body of the Church is so called or denominated, because of the holinesse, which is really or apparently inhe­rent in some Members or parts thereof, which denominates the whole Body, as when a man is said to see, because of the sight, which is not inherent in all the parts of his Body, but only in his Eye; or wise for his wisdome, which is inhe­rent in his Soule alone.

2. If it were otherwise, the Apostle should have written untruths in these Texts: for Rom. 16.17 18. he sayes; Now I beseech you, Brethren, marke them, which cause divisions and offences, &c. For they that are such, serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly: and 1 Cor. 5. It is known, that the Ince­stuous man was not excommunicated. Some of them were also Schismaticks, saying, that they were, of Christ, of Paul, of Apolloes: And what the Galathians were, the whole Epistle testifies; so that according to our Brethrens grounds, there was no visible Church here, and nothing could have been judged.

3. It is not sanctification, or holinesse of life, but Politicall, or Ecclesiasticall prudence, that furnisheth their Abilities: for 1. Sanctification is Gratia gratum faciens, one sort of Grace or gift of the Spirit, that renders us gracious, or makes us acceptable to God: But the facultie of Ruling, and exercising of Ju­risdiction in the Church, is Gratia gratis data, given gratiously only, but makes us not gracious or acceptable to God, as the Gift of Prophecie of Tongues, In­tepretation &c. 2. The first is given us, principally for our own benefit: the other principally for other mens benefit: and therfore 3. the first is for to save a man himself: the second to save others, when peradventure he may be damned himselfe, as we see in Judas, who had the grace of Prophecie, whereby he saved others, but damned himselfe, and did preach salvation to others be­leeving, but damnation to himselfe unbeleeving. 4. The first makes one a good Christian, the other a good Citizen in the exteriour Societie of the Church alone; yea, 5. I may boldly say, that a man may be a good Preacher, or Prophet, or Ruler in the Church, and an ill Christian, if hee preach the truth, and with edification, or rule well, and beleeve not, which may [Page 90]bee done by a very wicked man, Mat. 7.19, 20, 21, 22, 23. and an­other may be a good man, but an ill Preacher, Prophet, or Ruler, if he have sanctifying grace, and have not so great abilities to preach, or to rule, as an other, who perchance is an Atheist; or if he be somewhat negligent in the exer­cise of his charge; The Apostle sayes not that all, that were in their Churches were Saints either really or appearingly, but to all the Saints.

4. It is probable also, and some of them grant it, that all the Members of the Church in those texts of Scripture are called Saints, or holy. 1. because of the holi­ness of the Covenant. 2. Or holy, because of the holy Confession. 3. Or holy Pro­fession. 4. Or of the holy Sacraments of the holy Covenant, wherunto they were partakers; or finally, because of their externall Vocation to salvation: But all this makes them not learned, prudent, judicious, nor furnishes them with other abilities, which are needfull for the exercise of Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction.

5. But put the case that we should grant them all this, yet can they not e­scape thus, saying that in so doing, they admit not all those that are actually received in the Church, as her Children, and members, to the exercise of Ecclesi­astical Discipline, but the lesser part, for there are more ignorant, then lear­ned, and ill men, then good in the Church; or at least, that have not the gifts re­quired therunto, and so in rejecting, they are forced to admit some Election, and establish some representative Church by the admission of some, and the exclusi­on of others; so that in this point they differ not from us, in not admitting a Representative Church, but in admitting a greater and more Vast Representa­tative Church, then we; and the members thereof of lesse Abilities.

6. Hence it follows, that men have not right to exercise Ecclesiasticall Juris­diction in qualitie of Christians professing Christ (since women and others have it not) but in some other consideration, which we desire to know, viz. whether it be not for their Abilitie; and so it is not to be found in all.

7. This rejection of some (yea of the greater part of the Church, as women, children, old men, ignorants, Vitious men, and others that have not the abili­tie to judge, as all unholy and prophane men) and admission of others, that are the lesser part as sanctified men, in whom only consists the Church, is capa­ble to breed Divisions in their Church, if the people have power to judge; For, accordingly, they will judge in favour of themselves to be admitted, and so procure a schisme and quarrell; for the taking away whereof, the Government accordingly is established, let them take it into consideration, how hard it is for any man, yea for the most part of the Church, to be declared ignorant, im­prudent, young, of an unripe judgement, and doting, &c. and to the Church, and see the lesse part, which pretends to be the only Church, declared apt and fit to their owne exclusion, and what thereupon may ensue, in a Democraticall Government, upon such filthy and infamous aspersions; in checking the greater part as prophane, it may peradventure stirre up a bellum servile, more dange­rous to the Church, then that amongst the Romans.

[Page 91] 8. The Doctrine that destroyes Gods holy Ordinance, viz. the Distinction, which he has put betwixt the Rulers of the Church, and them that are ruled, and are to obey, cannot be admitted, as our Brethren will confesse.

But the Doctrine that gives to every Member of the Church power and administration of Jurisdiction, in ruling and governing the Church, is such; For God hath ordained some to rule, and others to obey, Rom. 12.8. 1 Cor. 12. Eph. 4. 1 Thess. 5.12. 1 Tim. 5.17. Heb. 13.17. Obey them, that rule over you, and submit your selves unto them.

Now then, if some be Rulers, and others to obey, we cannot all be Rulers, as it appeares. 1. Cor. 12.28, 29. And God hath set some in the Church, Apostles, and Governments, &c. Are all Apostles, &c? Where he sayes that one gift is not given to every Member of the Church, Note that he speaks here of those gifts, or [...], that are called gratia gratis data, not for our own, but for other mens use. Ergo, this order cannot be admitted.

9. No confused Discipline or government of Gods Church can be or­dained by God; for God is not the God of Confusion. 1. Cor. 14.33.

But that wherein every one of the people hath Jurisdiction, or juridicall power, is a confused Discipline or government. Ergo, It cannot be ordained by God.

The Major will be granted, since it is Gods word:

The Minor is evident; For I put the case, that in a Church composed of some 20000 persons, there be some point of Doctrine to be decided, what disorder and confusion should it not breed, if every one of that huge multitude, yea, eve­ry illiterate, and idle fellow should come, and propound his idle thoughts? By what wisdome of man could this many-headed beast be reduced to order?

It may be answered, that they should be wise;

But we reply, they are not, nor can that be hoped, or expected in this life: nay, doe any beleeve it, either Donatists or Anabaptists; and howbeit they were all wise to salvation, yet followes it not, that they should all be wise for Government, and Examination of all Church Officers.

10. The exercise of the Discipline of the Church is morally possible; for God will not that his Church be governed by an order that is impossible.

But this Democraticall, and Plebeian exercise of Discipline, is not morally possible, for if there were 20. or 30. points to be judged by such a huge multi­tude certainly they could not easily discusse, and judge every point. For if every one of 20000 should give his advise, and peradventure be interrupted by some, and then begin his discourse againe, which ordinarily falls out amongst rude people, when should the Examen and discussion of the businesse be ended? Grant to every one of them but halfe an houre, whereas, I warrant you, some should take halfe a day, or halfe a yeare, and say little to the purpose, and yet make [...] of one businesse onely employing 12. hours a day [Page 88] [...] [Page 89] [...] [Page 90] [...] [Page 91] [...] [Page 92]counting the Lords day also, should amount to two yeares, and foure moneths or thereabouts; so that here, there is too much delay; for a businesse should scarce ever be judged or ended? what should become of all other businesse? What if in this one question there should fall out 20. or 30. Incidents, whereof every one should take up as much time as the principall Question, which quicke witted men may easily procure; when then should a Question be ended?

It may be answered, that there may be some order taken for deliberating and consulting, which may hinder this, as at Rome, where there were 1000. Se­nators; and in Paris, where at the Parliament there are 200. Senators. But they permit not every man to discourse, as was ordained by the old fashion of Rome, whereby every one of the Senators had power to tell out his opinion by word of mouth; Senatoribus quibus (que) in Senatu sententiā dicere, jus esto, Aulus Gellius, lib. 3. cap. 8. Neither to give their voice in writing, because of the weak­nesse of their memories, and to avoid all dispute, and contention, which falls out in discourse, which they call, deliberare ex libello, ex pugillaribus; but hol­ding their peace, and assenting to two, three, or foure of the wisest, who dis­cusse it in the beginning, which the Romans called per Discessionem; and there­fore they were called Agipedes by Lucilius, because they went on foot towards one of them, whose Judgement they followed; The French call it opiner en Bonnet, because in assenting they only take off their Bonnet; Sometimes they say nothing, but Idem, or; Et moy, or, de mesme; or, as the old Romans did, by little stones, writing on them, C.A. or N. to signifie Condemned, Ab­solved, or, Nonliquet, I know not: such almost as the French use in some Ca­ses, and in some places, Par Balotes, & Buletins en l'Election des Officiers & Beneficiers, by Bills or Tickets in the Election of Officers and Incum­bents or beneficed men: So did the Areopagites, and now the Venetians, or per [...], or the stretching out of their hand, as the Athenians did; and sometimes the Romans.

A. 1. I approve the Answer in not permitting all to speak; for many of them cānot speak to the purpose; nor by writing; for many of them cānot write at all.

If the third way be used, then you must choose a certain number to speak, whose voyces must be followed; and 1. that is no lesse to tie them to an implicite Faith, then a Consistorie does. 2. It is to diminish their power in speaking; for their tongues are their own. 3. It is to contemne them, and judge, that some have more authority, then others. 4. What, if some of the people be of an other judgement then any of the rest, how shall they discover it?

The Suffrages cannot be given by little stones, or Ballots; for Writing cannot be used, because many of the people cannot write; and yet all this would take up much time; and if there should fall in many incidents, there should never be an end.

No more that external Signe, in stretching out the hand, or touching the Bon­net; [Page 93]for so great a multitude should breed confusion; and besides that, howbeit it might be usefull in a Simple Affirmation, or Negation; yet in a great diversity of judgements it cannot hold.

11. Besides this, the Discipline of the Church may be exercised in all times, yea, in times of Persecution, as in the Primative Church.

But this Democraticall sort of Discipline cannot be exercised in all times, and specially in time of Persecution, which is most ordinary to the Militant Church; for if all the People should so meet together, it could not be without great danger, under an Antichristian Prince; and principally in consulting a­bout her own conservation, her Counsell might easily be discovered, and the Church of God betrayed by some mens wickednesse, and others folly and im­prudence, whereas 10. or 12. or 50. of the most wise and prudent may easily meet together without any eminent danger.

12. If a Congregation were great, as of 20000. or 30000. there could not be found a commodious Place to containe them; and this I say by experience, for being at one of their Conferences, there were so many, that we were like to be smothered. And, there happened such a confusion, such partiality and jang­ling by reason of the pretended equality, that we could reap no profit thereby.

13. Againe, I pray, Is it fit, that for all particular businesses, peradventure some of them very idle, and of small importance, that such a great Congregation should be gathered together, and taken away from their Callings; or that every particular fault should be made known to every particular man in the Con­gregation? Should all the particularities; or circumstances of most wicked and vile crimes, be examined, discussed, and voyced by so many of the people; what should that be, but to teach them most execrable sinnes, whereof they had never heard before; for it is certain, that many sins are learned in hearing them. God forbid, that in the Christian Church (wherein any Uncleannesse should not be once named; Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, Eph. 4.29. Let not uncleannesse be once named amongst you, Eph. 5.4. Neither filthinesse, ver. 4.) Children in their tender age, should heare of such odious Sinnes, from which their very nature abhorres: And that young people before they know well what is vertue, should heare all sort of vice; That were worse, then the Je­suits Auricular Confession, and abominable Cases of Conscience; In reading or hearing whereof the Conscience is either offended, or infected.

It may be answered, that it is not needfull to admit them in these Assemblies.

Reply. But the Assembly (say they) is open to all, to the end that all may learne, how to exercise the power of Ecclesiasticall government: If it be open to all, how shall they be kept out? If to the end all may learne, how shall they obtain this end if they be kept out?

It may yet be answered, that there is no lesse publication of odious Sinnes, in white sheets at the Pillar of Repentance in Scotland.

A. That paine is only inflicted on some sins, 2. Neither are the particulari­ties or circumstances of the sins, declared which should be scandalous. 3. On­ly the pain is published in generall, but the particularities, that may give of­fence are concealed.

14. In no Societie, neither in the Government of a Familie, nor of Schooles, or Academies, nor in Kingdoms, or Armies is it permitted to every man promiscu­ously, without distinction, to judge and vote, but only to the Overseers in their Societies: Wherefore then should that be permitted, yea ordained in the Church of God, which is Gods house, Christs Schoole; Shall there be no place for foolish, and impertinent fellowes to judge in, but only in Gods house, and Kingdome, the holy City, and his Kingdome? For what inconvenience and Absurdities presses the one, the same followes on the other.

This Argument so proposed ab Exemplo must hold, because of the paritie of Reason in both.

It may be proposed in Forme of Syllogisme thus:

There is no Societie ruled by Law, wherein every man exercises the power of Judge.

The Church of God is a Societie ruled by Law: E. In the Church of God every man cannot exercise the power of Judge.

The Minor will be granted: The Major may be proved by Induction; for so is it not in Academies, Armies, Republicks, Kingdomes, &c. E. It may be excepted that it is not so in the Church; But it is unreasonable after a perfect Induction, and Enumeration of all other Societies, that you should except on­ly against that which is in question: As if I should goe about to prove that Christ, according to his humane nature had a Body, his due dimensions, or qnantitie, because all men have so; But you should except Christ; for so no man can prove any thing; for evermore my Adversary shall except that which is in question.

15. If all the people promiscuously may judge, then they may judge with­out their Presbyters, and Church-Officers.

But the Consequent is false. E. The Antecedent, from whence it is inferred, is false also.

They will not deny the Assumption, and it may be proved thus; For with­out their Pastors, and Seniors, the Congregation cannot make a compleat Church, the People being but one halfe thereof, and their Rulers the other: Be­sides, that there may be some Cases, wherein the People cannot judge alone, as in point of Heresie, and touching the capacitie of Ministers, admitted to Preach.

The Consequence of the first Proposition may be proved thus; For if they be all Judges; and of foure hundred or five hundred, foure or five, or fifteen chance to be absent, the rest may judge, the number of those that are absent; being no [Page 95]wayes considerable, in respect of that which is present; But so is the Case in the first Proposition.

Item, Because, if of the people, two, three, or foure, yea 20.30. or 40. be absent, the Church-Officers, with the rest, will judge without them: Why shall not then the People have the same power also in absence of the Church-Officers, fince they have all alike power to judge, viz. every man one voyce? This Argument ariseth out of our Brethrens Supposition, viz. that every one has power to judge and rule.

16. I Would willingly aske our Brethren, whether or no they thinke that an Ecclesiasticall Judgement can hold without the Peoples presence and voy­ces? If it can hold, then the peoples voycing is not absolutely needfull, nor ex instituto divino; For it cannot hold, nor be just, without that which God re­quires to make it just.

If it cannot hold without the Peoples voyces, I ask againe, whether all the peoples voyces be requisite: or that the major part suffice.

If all; it is impossible Morally; neither see we ever almost, that in a great Congregation all can meet together: or if they meet together, that all consent together, yea, nor in lesser Assemblies,

If the major part suffice, as it must be said, then can it not hold; for if many be absent, and of those that are present, the major part surmount the lesser, by 4.5.6. or 7. voyces, then the lesser part may complaine, that all the people were not present, and so desire the businesse to be remitted to another meeting; so that in conclusion no businesse should ever end, unlesse all the people were present, which ordinarily never, or rarely falls out.

Item, they fall into that very inconvenience, which they presse so hard against their Brethren, viz. that they that are absent, shall be led by the nose, and con­sent by an implicite Faith to a Judgement of Doctrine, or of Discipline of great consequence, for other mens judgements sake, whereunto Formally they dissented; For if Judgements of Consistories, composed of Church-Offi­cers alone cannot hold, because then the People should be led by the nose, and assent thereunto by an implicite Faith: no more should the Judgement of the People in this present Case.

The same inconvenience, or worse, should fall out in voycing; for if there were in the Assembly of 20000. 10000. for one part, and the rest for the other; Here all the rest should be led by one implicite Faith to consent against their own explicite Faith; for here things are carried by pluralitie of voyces, which are not weighed, but accompted.

If only the Masters of Families, or all Servants have power to voyce, and if that may not procure partialities, when a Father may draw his sons and ser­vants to his opinion, to voyce with him, as he will.

19. Besides this, our Brethren must determine, how many they require to [Page 96]accomplish the Assembly, to the end that the Judgement may hold, and be va­leable. How many for the discussion and voycing of the businesse? and after it is voyced, and judged, how many to draw up the Sentence, or Judgement; for in this all Nations doe not agree, neither one Senate in the Kingdome with another, in another Kingdome; nor one Senate in the same Kingdome with another; nor one Senate with it selfe in divers times. And if they determine it, we pray them to draw their Determination thereof out of Gods word, since they will admit of nothing concluded by naturall Reason, or drawn from the Law of Nature.

20. We may bring many more Reasons to shew the impossibilitie, or at least the very great difficultic, that is in this sort of Judicatory, as the Case there should fall in many incidents; as about refusing of some of the Judges; some witnesses; the Protestation of the nullity of the Judgement for sundry Reasons; that all the Judges were not well informed of the matter, some of them having given their Judgement before-hand, some having promised to the party to judge so or so, some of them having solicited others to judge so or so; if all these Incidents should be discussed, and passe by the voyces of 20000. men, when should it be ended?

Wee might also bring other Reasons, to shew how that sundry things in this Government are altogether repugnant to Ecclesiasticall Government, as

21. That a man should be borne a Judge in Christs Church without any Election, or Vocation to such a place; But no man taketh this honour unto him­selfe, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron, Heb. 5.4. And truly there is no reason, that a man, yea that all men should rather be borne Judges in Gods Church, then in the State.

22. The Hang-man, and the most ignominious persons in the world should be Judges here.

23. Nothing could ever be decided: for in case there were 5. or 6. divers Opinions, you could decide according to none: for if you followed that, which had most voyces with it, all the rest would voyce against it, if that which had fewer, they that had more would not suffer it: so what ever should be said, or done, it should be controlled.

24. We only adde Christs Command, Math. 18.17. Tell it unto the Church. 1. Unto the Representative Church, and not to every one of the People; for that should be impossible. This passage our Brethren bring for them, but sure­ly it makes rather against them; for Christ here establishing an Ecclesiasticall Judicatorie, alludes to the order of the Jewes in their Synagogicall Judicato­ries, and Sanedrim, in Censuring of Vice, and redressing of the grievances, that Brethren received of Brethren in the Church; for he abolishes not such Ju­dicatories, Quoad substantiam, since they are grounded on the Law of Nature, but quoad Circumstantias, in so far as they are ordained by Moyses, Captaine, [Page 97]and the leader of the people of God, or did only bind the people of the Iewes, and had for Object the transgression of the Politicall Law of Moses, &c. yea it is probable, that they were not abrogated at all by Christ among the people of the Iewes, since they were Juris Naturalis, quoad substantiam & Politici, quoadmodum, for he came not to abrogate, but to fulfill the Law: And so hath all the Christian world hitherto understood this Passage, whose Iudgements we cannot easily reject, without some solid ground; and so much the rather, for that since Iesus Christ his time, till some forty, or fifty yeares agoe, or thereabouts, never any man of esteeme did ever dreame of such a Popular, and confused Government, if yee except Morellies; And so is the word, Ecclesia, taken, Deut, 31.28. [...], as the Septuagint translates it, gather unto me all the Elders of your Tribes, and Officers, and Deut. 23. v. 1, 2, 3. it is commanded, that he that is hurt by Bursting, or hath his pri­vie members cut off; that is, a Bastard, an Ammonite, or a Moabite, shall not enter into the Congregation, or Ecclesia, even to the Tenth Generation: Here Ecclesia, or Congregation cannot signifie the Reall, but the Representa­tive Congregation; For it had been unjust, to exclude any man from the reall Church, & consequently from Gods Covenant, that desired to be therein. If it had been so, they could not have received any Proselytes, w ^ch is against Gods Law, Exod. 23.48. where it is commanded, to admit unto the Passeover all Strangers, that would be circumcised: so that which was said to the Elders of Israel, that were the Representative Congregation, Exod. 2.16. is said to have been said to the Sons of Israel, that were the Reall Congregation, Exod. 14. and the Text confirmes it; for Moses had not charge to say, that the Lord would bring up out of Affliction the Elders only, but also the People.

25. This Doctrine at once condemnes all the Martyrs, and Councells, and all their practise in Ecclesiasticall Government.

26. Our Brethren holde, that the absent part of the Church may give over, or remit their power of Iudging to them, that are present, and that the lesser part are bound to acquiesce with the major part in voycing; where­fore then may not all the People give over, or remit their power of Iudging to a certaine number of the wisest, such as the Representative Church is, or acquiesce unto their Iudgements?

27. To whom the Apostles, in the first Constitution of the Church, at their last Farewells committed the power of Iurisdiction, and Ordination, to those it is to be committed at this present.

But to Church-Officers, or to the Representative Body of the Church a­lone, did the Apostles, in the first Constitution of the Church, at their last Farewell committed the power of Iurisdiction, Ordination, &c. Acts 20. 1 Pet. 5. Ergo.

But our Brethren reply, that we cannot shew any Place in all the holy Scriptures, or prophane Authors, where the word, Church, is taken in this [Page 98]signification, viz. for the Representative Church, or Congregation.

A. Whereunto we answer, 1. That the stile of Scripture must not be sought in prophane Authors, but in Scripture it selfe.

2. Some give some Examples in prophane Authors.

3. In Scripture our Adversaries will never finde any place, wherein the word [...] is taken for all the Reall Parochiall Church, to the exclusion of children, women, all those that have not the use of Reason, and that are no­toriously vicious, as it is taken by themselves.

4. We on the other side, to confirme the signification, wherein it is taken by us, viz. for the Representative Congregation, present them with these places, 1 Exod. 3. v. 14. Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, i. e. un­to the representative Body of the children of Israel, viz. the Elders of Israel gathered together, as it is expounded, v. 16.2. Exod. 12. In the institution of the Passeover, v. 3. Speake yee unto all the Congregation of Israel, i. e. the Elders, which were the Representative Body of Israel, as it is ex­pounded, v. 21. and Reason confirmes it; for they could not in so short a time speake to all the Reall Congregation, composed of so many thousands; nei­ther could they easily be gathered together into one place, nor could it be done without apparent danger.

Item. Numb. 35.24. in speaking of Murther through ignorance, the Revenger of the blood, and the Cities of Refuge, It is said that the Congregation shall Iudge between the slaine, and the Revenger of Blood, according to those Iudgements; without doubt the Congregation here cannot signifie all the Reall, but the Representative Congregation; i. e. the Elders, 1. Because, so it is expounded, Deut. 19.2. and Iosua 20.4, 5, 6. 2. because it was not for every one of the people, or the Reall Congregation, but belonged to the El­ders, that were the Representative Body thereof, to Iudge of the Blood.

And Deut. 31.28. Gather unto me all the Elders of your Tribes, and your Officers, the 70. turne it [...]. Now if [...] signifie to con­gregate, By the Rules of Conjugata it followes, that [...] signifies a Con­gregation, that was congregated or gathered together from amongst the rest. But the Ecclesia, or Congregation, that was here gathered together, was not all the Reall, but the Representative Congregation, consisting of Elders, &c. as appeares by the Text; Ergo.

So it is said, that Solomon assembled the Elders of Israel, and all the Heads of the Tribes, &c. 1 Reg. 8.1.

And that David assembled all the Princes, &c. 1 Chro. 28.1. so the word Congregation, is taken for the Representative Body thereof, 1 Chro. 13.1, 2, 3, 4 for David could not speake to all the Congregation, but to the Cap­taines, and Chieftaines thereof, as it appeares v. 1. and 4. 5. neither could they all goe with him.

Deutrinomy, 23.1, 2, 3. It is commanded, that neither he who is bursten, or that hath his privie members cut off, or that is a Bastard, an Am­monite, [Page 99]or a Moabite, shall enter into the Congregation, or in Ecclesia, e­ven to the tenth Generation; here the word Ecclesia, or Congregation must not signifie the Reall, but the Representative Congregation; for it should have been unjust and cruell to have excluded from the Church, and conse­quently from the Covenant of God any of those, that desired to be admitted thereunto. 2. For then they could not have received any of those Nations for Proselytes, to the tenth generation. 3. Because this is repugnant to ano­ther Law of God, Exod. 23.48. where it is commanded to admit unto the Passeover all Strangers circumcised.

28. If every member of the Church should have power, to Governe, or a power of Iurisdiction in every Ecclesiasticall Cause, Ergo of teaching also, and of Deaconship; for there is a parity of reason in both; for there be some points of Controversie as hard to be Iudged, as it would be to master a Sermon: and it is much difficulter to rule, then to exercise the charge of a Deacon.

But the Consequence is false, as is granted by all; neither can every one of the People assist and give their voyce touching every Almes, that must be gi­ven to the Poore; yea it were very dangerous that every Poore man should Iudge; for then all the Poore should Iudge one for another, and hunt after the Deaconship, that they might keep the purse, or give their advise upon every point of Doctrine taught, or to be taught; nor should they then need to learne at the Sermons; And before the Pastor should teach the People, they must consult whether his Doctrine be sound, or not; As in governing, we consult whether this, or that is to be done, censured, or not censured.

29. If every man hath power to rule, we need no Ruling Elders; for eve­ry member of the Church is a Ruling Elder, since he may exercise Ecclesiasti­call Iurisdiction, as the Ruling Elders doe. But they hold the Consequent to be false. Ergo.

They may answer, that Elders are needfull to debate things before they be propounded to the People; But that is only the duty of a Committee, and lesse then to Iudge; and he who may have a deliberative and decisive voyce may debate the matter; yea the matter being debated by the Elders, may be debated again amongst the People; so that their Debate should besuperfluous.

30. Here to confirme this, we may bring in all those passages of Scriptur, which our Brethren bring against it as Christs Command, Mat. 18. &c.

1 Cor. 5. and 2 Cor. 2. They only have Iurisdiction and power of Ex­communication in Christs Church, whom St. Paul in those passages com­mands to cast out from amongst them, and to admit the Incestuous person; But not every one of the promiscuous multitude, but those only, that are of the Representative Body of the Church, those only whom St. Paul comman­ded to cast out from amongst them, and to admit the Incestious person, Er.

The first Proposition is granted by our Brethren; the second is certain; for that which is in the Text cannot appertaine to every one of the people; This is written to all the Church of Corinth, which was very great, and consequently could not meete together as it is commanded, verse 4. neither could every one of them deliver him to Sathan, as it is commanded. 5. neither can it be shewed from the Text, that this is only said to growen men, that have the use of Reason, that doate not, to the exclusion onely of Children, of those that doate, that want altogether, or in part the use of Reason; and of women. Neither could every one comfort him, forgive him, &c. as it is commanded, 2 Cor. 2.7. and 15. Chapter. For further proofe hereof we shall by and by bring the rest of the passages, that they alleadge, for evidence against them.