First and Second Reason,

THe keepers of the said Coaches apprehending the usefulness of them to the publick, and being by Counsel advised it was lawful to set them up, did about 30. years sithence set them up, have ever sithence continued them, at their very great charge & hazard for the conveniency of the subject & to the general satisfaction of those that have used them; layd out all their stocks upon, and spent all their time in ma­nagement of them, by means whereof they have rendred themselves unfit for any other course of lively hood for support of themselves and familes.

Answer By the Stage-Coaches on the Grand Roads of England, is meant Exeter, Salsbury, Bristol, Southampton, Dover, Norwich, Lincoln, Northampton, York Westchester, and Shrewsbury, the owners of which Coaches, joyn in opposing the suppressing.

Norwich was set up about 30 years, sithence York about 18. Chester about 20, Exeter between 20 and 30. the others very lately.

The first stage-Coaches were long Coaches in the middle of the Waggons, that travelled with their horses one before another, about 20 or 25 miles a day, were a week or eight dayes going to York, Exe­ter, and Chester, and so proportionably to the other stages.

These travelled easy, carryed sick and Antient people, journeys suitable to their strength, and went not above one to a place, in one week, so did no great hurt.

And as it was a great convenyency to the Subject, that could not travel any other way, so it was law­ful to set them up.

But the persons who now keep Stage Coaches, are not the men that first set them up, nor have they continued them 30 years, or been since they undertook them a conveniance to the Subjects that have used them, any way answerable to the grandure of the mischiefs they have been, and are, to Trade in general, especially to the Ma­nufacturers of Wooll, Leather, [...]ron, the staple commodites of the Kingdome, who ought to be encouraged; nor have they given that general satisfaction to those that have used them, as will appear in the answer to their Arguments.

But these Gentlemen finding the Coaches aforesaid set up, took the advantage of the late troubles, and when mens horses were taken from them, so that they had not to carry them their journeys, set up these Coaches that go with horses two a breast, and for many years travell'd with four horses in a Coach, and went to York, Exeter, and Chester, in a week, and but once a week; all this time there were so few, that they did little or no hurt, but now of late, have set up running Stage-Coaches, change horses twice a day, run these long journyes in four dayes, to the great prejudice of the Countrey, and they have three Coaches a week at least, sometimes, 4, 5, 6, Coaches go to every of these towns, which is a great destru­ction to the Countrey as will hereafter appear.

From these Gentlemen, example it is, that now all great towns in England have set up Stage-Coaches and every little town within twenty miles of London sworms with them, to the almost utter destruction of the Countrey.

These Stage Coachemen that have been the principal occasions of this incomparable advantage to the King­dome, having laid out their stock their time, and their wit, to contrive this Ruine, and who have no way to live but upon the further destruction of the people, hope therefore that they shall be continued, and allowed. For York and Lincoln Stage is kept by Mr. Doin a Scrivener by trade, Mr. Gardne [...] an Innholder in York, and a Coach and Harnes-maker, followes the trade, The Widdow Hayhunt who is Licensed to keep a Coach in Lon­don and keeps an Inn, Exeter Coach is kept by Mr. Fleming a Licensed Coach in London, Mr. Biscopy and Mr. Baker both rich men and of other imploy. Shrewsbury and Chester Coach kept by Mr. Halloway Mr. Fowler and Mr. Earle, all rich men, and Licensed to keep Coaches in London, and the last of them, followes the trade of Coach and Harness making. Dover Stage kept by Mr. Jones Licensed in London, Nothampton, by Mr. King Licensed in London. Winchester and Henly, by Mr. Hathoway and Mr, Robinson, both Licensed, Windsor, by Mr. Sadler a Licensed man, and Mr. Lee a Rich Barber Chyrurgeon. Glocester, Bedford, Huntington, by Mr. Comwell, Mr. Rash, Mr. York, All three of them great Carryers and keep Waggons. Bristol, Bath, Newberry, by Widdow Tooby, who is Licensed. Mr. Baldwin that hath an Inn at Twiford, Mr. Wells Innkeeper at Bath, Mr. Shute a Baker, and Mr. Drew Innkeeper at Newberry. Redding Coaches, the owners Inholders in Redding, Tunbridge, Mr. Forster, and others, all Licensed in London. Gilford, Mr. Kemp Licensed in London. Mr. Smart Innholder in Gilford. Oxford. Mr. Moore, and Mr. Bartlet both Waggoners and Carryers. Salisbury, Mr. Minchin a Carryer, the others great Inhol­ders in Salisbury, and so in most towns of England, ( except here about London, which are all set up within few years) The owners of Stage-Coaches are Inholders, first, one in a town set up a Coach, brought all Guests to his house, Then a second, third and fourth in a town set them up to bring guests to their hou­ses, and run one against the other, killed multitudes of Horses and almost ruin'd one another, insomuch that excepting these Long Stage-Coaches, (who you see know not how to live, though qualified as afore­said) they would be glad all over England to have them put down, if that all might go down, for then trade would be defused, and each expect a Trade according to the reception they had for their Guests.

[Page 2]3. Reason. They aleadge they imploy great numbers of people of other Trades, set poor boyes at work, that would live idly, breed many fit to make Coachmen and Postilions for the Nobility and Gentry.

To this it is humbly answered, where they imploy one man in their service, they destroy a hundred men that (if they were put down) would live handsomely, they have a man to drive a Coach, and a boy at an Inn to rub their Horses, and an Hostler to help grease or make clean their Coach; this is the most they use: but they take away the trade of the Shoemaker, Spurrier, Cutler, Girdler, Lorrainer, Gun­smith, Glover, Hosier, Clothier, and all that depends upon clothing. The Smith, the Braysier, the Foun­der, the Taylor,, Cloth-worker, Cloth-drawer, and a hundred Trades more, to which men were bound, served seven years Apprentiship, and are of the greatest advantage to the Kingdome,, ought to be encoura­ged, being the Manufacturors of the Staple commodities of the Kingdome; these with their Families will be proved above two hundred thousand of them are undone, shall these be ruin'd by about two thousand men that drive Stage-Coaches and rubb horses heels, on pretence they shall be fit to serve the Nobility and Gen­try; when as whilst they are breeding, they so lower the Rents of Lands, by hindring the Consumption of the Manufacturies and Provisions of the Kingdome; that few Gentlemen will be in a capacity (if continued) to keep either Coach or Horses for them to drive.

4. Reason they offer is, That multitudes of Men and women, antient or sickly, and so of children that are not able otherwise to travel, or not without great danger will be prejudicial.

It is humbly offered, such people when they had occasion to come to London (before these Coaches were set up) did come up on horseback, but if they be antient and sickly, or young children, then is the long Coa­ches much fitter to carry them, then the running Coaches, for they travel easier, go out later, come in ear­lier, bate longer by the way; and therefore as antiently would be made use of, if running Coaches were down and these if not too numerous, would do no great hurt to the Countrey.

5. Reason, It would be great trouble to the Subjects, disapoint their business, and be an imposing upon them in the manner of their travel and expences, which is unusual, grievous and without President.

For Answer, It need be no disappointment, for if they be minded to Coach it, they may set out a day or too sooner, and come in the Waggon Coaches; if their business be speed, they may ride Post, and as cheap as in these Coaches; for a man may have a Post horse at 3 d. a mile, which to York will come but to one pound sixteen shillings, and you must pay forty shillings for the Coach, and then you may come in half the time that the Coach comes, and there is no imposing upon any man, he may hire a Coach, travel in his own Coach, or go in long Coach, or hire Horses, go Post, or use his own horses.

6. Reason, Persons that come from Ireland, France, Flanders, Isle of Wight, Garnsy, Jersey, from Scotland or Wales, what shall they do, they have found by experience how exacting men are that keep Hor­ses to Lett, and found the inconveniency of tyred Iades.

Here you may see the design is only to keep up the six or seaven Stages aforenamed. Dover to bring Pas­sengers that come from France and Flanders, Bristol, Exeter and Chester to bring Passengers from Ire­land, or VVales, and York to bring people from Scotland, Southampton to bring from Isle of VVight, Guernsey and Iersey, of which there will be no need at all to have any Coaches but the Waggon Coaches; and whereas they talk of tyred Jades, were these Coaches down, that men might have hopes of hire for their horses, they would keep very good ones, and let them cheaper then ten shillings a day, which Gentlemen are forced to pay for riding in these Coaches. And I should be glad if they would be so ingenious as to confess how often Gentlemen are hindred by the breaking of their rotten Harness, or Wheeles, Axeltrees, or Pearches; or by their Tyring of their Horses, or overthrowing their Coaches, and so brought at mid­night into their Inns by Torch lights.

7. Reason Putting down Stage-Coaches would be greater prejudice to the Subjects in general then the keeping them up, can be to any person; yet if all the Petitioners were all damnified, their interests all conjoyn­ed together, are not to be respected in comparison of the publick; and that keeping these Coaches is of such publick concernment, they offer,

1. That way of Travelling by which the people receive most benefit, can Travel with the least expence of money and time, and most advantageous to their health and business, ought to be countenanced.

2. That way of Travelling which is absolutely necessary to many, useful to others, and imposed upon by none, ought to be countenanced, but such is that of Stage-Coaches, therefore

For Answer, It is great presumption in these Coachmen to bring or set up their Interests, in the ballance or in competition with the interest of the publick, and to say (as in effect they do) that if all the Petitioners were damnified their interests (howbeit they know the interest of all the Gentry, the Farmers, the Coun­try Tradesmen, and all the Manufacturors of our Staple Commodites, is concerned in their being supres­sed, insomuch that they are cursed where ever they come, by the people, nay, though they know the safe­ty of the King and Kingdome is endangered by them, the Kings Revenue as well as Gentlemens Estates are lessened, breeding of Watermen and Horses hindred) are nothing nor to be respected in comparison of the publick, which they would make their own particular interest to be.

For the Arguments they give, we will admit them good and right, and offer that, which it is hoped will convince all the Readers, that they are rather against them than for them.

First, Stage-Coaches is a way of Travelling by which men receive most benefit.

Second, Can Travel with least expence of Money and Time.

Third, VVith most advantage to their healths and business.

Fourth, They are absolutely necessary to some, useful to others, impos'd upon by none, Ergo, to be countenanced.

[Page 3]For the first, can that way of travelling be of the greatest benefit to travellers that is to the destructi­on of Trade, prevents the consumption of Provisions and Manufacturies and brings down the rents of all mens Estates.

They that travel, are either the Gentlemen, the Tradseman, the Husbandman, or the Poor.

If Gentlemen, what advantage is it to him, suppose he could save mony by a Journey to hinder the consumption of Provisions, and the Manufacturies of the Kingdom, by which he brings down his own Rents ten times as much in a year, as he saves in his Journey.

If Tradseman, he cannot be said to have advantage by that way of travelling that destroyes all Trade, his Interest is to promote consumption of all Commodities.

The Husbandman or Farmer, cry out all over England, they are ruined and have no vent for their Corn, and Hay, and Straw?

The Grasier, he complains for want of a market for his Cattle; And for the Poor, Waggon, or long Coaches, would best suite with their Purses.

Secondly, It is a mistake to say men may travel with less expence of mony or time by Coach, then they can do otherwise, for men may travel faster if they ride Post or on their own Horses (then in most Stage-Coaches,) and as cheap or cheaper all things considered.

Note, from London to Exeter, York, Chester, each Passenger pays 40 s. and as much from those places to London, in all 4 l. is four dayes going, four dayes coming in the Journey they change Coaches and Coachmen four times, and each person that travels usually gives the Coachman 1 s. at the end of his Stage; that comes to 8 s. and payes at least 3 s. more for the Drink the Coachmen have upon the Road, this comes in all, to 4 l. 11 s.

This traveller when he comes to London on Horseback, lyes at one Inn, payes nothing for his Lodg­ing, but coming in Coach, payes 5 or 6 s. a week for his Lodging, so that if he stay fourteen dayes in London, it costs him 10 s. this makes 5 l. 1 s. besides the inconveniency of having meat from Cooks at twice the rate he might have it in Inns, now if these Coaches were down, excellent Horses would be bred and kept by Gentlemen for their own use, and for men that cannot keep Horses good, would be kept by others to set out to hyer, these a man would let for 10 s. or 12 s. a Week. So that if a man were to come from York or any other long Stage to London, say he were five dayes coming, five dayes going, and stay twelve dayes in London to dispatch his business in all three Weeks, Horse hyer will come to 36 s. Horse meat at 14 d. a day one day with anot her comes to 1 l. 5 s. 8 d. in all 3 l. 1 s. 8 d. so that there is forty shillings perfectly saved, towards paying for Boots, Spurrs, Saddles, Rideing-Clothes that are necessary for travellers on Horseback, and would certainly be better spent on these things, by making whereof the Poor are kept and relieved, then to be given to a Stage-Coachman for indulg­ing a man in his lazie and idle habit of body, and thus in proportion a man may save from all shorter Stages. From Northampton you must pay 16 s. to London, and so much back from Bristoll, 25 s. from Bath. 20 s. from Redding 7 s. from Salsbury 20, or 25 s. and so in proportion for shorter or longer Stages. If a man come on his own Horses, the very mony paid for Coach hyer would defray the charges upon the Road; but for them that keep no Horses, if these Coaches were down, you would have in all great Towns of England, many good Horses kept to be let to travellers, and there would be a Corresponden­cy between those that keep Horses in one Town, and those that keep them in another; so that a man might come to Northampton or to any other place, and have Horses for half the price they now pay for Coach hyer, and leave the Horse at London, and when his business is done in London, might hyer Horses back for halfe what is paid for Coach hyer, thus it would be over England; by which incouragement would be given to breed vast numbers of Horses, and Gentlemen would be necessitated to keep Horses for their own use, and those would be kept in the Kingdom which are now (almost all that are good for any thing) sent out, and great numbers would be kept in all Cities and great Towns to be hyred out, which would occasion the consumption of vast quantities of Horse-meat, and raise the price of them, and con­sequently rents of Lands.

Thirdly, These Coaches are neither advantagious to mens healths or business.

Pray what advantage to a mans health is it, to be called into the Coach an hour before day in a morn­ing, and to be kept in the Coach an hour or two within night to sit in Winter time shaking with Cold, choaked with Foggs, freezing for want of stirring, brought into the Inn so late at night, he cannot stay up to get a Supper because he must be gon early, call'd up so early that he cannot eat, hurryed along all day that he can get nothing to Eat.

What conveniency is it for a man when his business is done at London or else where, for want of a Horse to stay a Week or fourteen dayes for a passage in one of these Coaches at great charge that he might save?

What conveniency is it for a man that day he is to go out of Town, to be forced to an hour, or else left behind, so that often he is compelled to leave business undone and come again about it, which might have been done in an hour or two, and all this to comply with a surly cursing Coachman?

What conveniency is it that a man can never go out of the Road upon any occasion whatsoever, nor stay at any town to see a friend, or dispatch any business, but where these Coachmen please, and as little time as they please?

What conveniency is it to be stuft up in a Coach with Strangers, old Sickley diseased people crying Children, to whose humours men must be subject, and forced to bear withall and be crowded with their bundles and boxes, and almost poysoned sometimes with there nasty sents.

[Page 4]But to have these Coaches suppressed, mens lazye humours discountenanced, and for men to travell on Horseback, this would be a great inconveniency.

For then Gentlemen might so soon as their business is done, having Horses ready, return home, and not be compelled to stay for a passage in these Coaches.

They may go out in the morning at what time they please, come in at night as early as they please, chuse their company on the Road, and avoid those that suted not with their quallities and tempers, they might stay as often and as long in the day time at any place, to bate as they pleased, go out of the Road when they please, travel as short or long Journies as they please, keep out of the Foggs, Cold, or Wet, as much as they please; and thereby preserve their health by taking into a House when the weather is un­fit for travelling. And by this means would many poor Families in the Country be maintained, the Taylors would get mony by mending Cloathes, the Sadlers by stuffing or mending Saddles, Smiths by shoing Horses, mending Bits, Snaffles, &c. Shomakers by liquoring and mending old Boots, or sel­ling new ones, the Hatter by dressing or putting Hats on the Block when spoyled with dirt and the wea­ther, and many other Tradsemen be maintained, besides this way of Travelling. Travellers would come into their Inns before Shops shut up, stay till Shops open in the morning, understand the trade of the Town, and if they find any thing usefull for them, lay out Mony, buy of the Manufacturies off the place, as Silk or Woosted Stockings in some places, Laces in other places, Gloves at other places, Bootes or Shooes at other places, Linnen-Cloath at other places; this would be a great relief and incouragement to the poor People that make these things, and bring mony to the several Towns where they live, and an advantage to those that buy them.

And if these Coaches were put down, persons would not so often travel from home, but keep in the Countrey, and live upon their Estates, by means whereof, they would buy what they had occasion of in the Countrey of the Mercers, or other Tradesmen there, who are now most of them ruin'd by their neigh­bours buying all at London; and by this means money would be kept circulating in th [...] Countrey, the antient Trade of London with Countrey Chapmen kept up, which would be of advantage to London, for then they know who they trust, and where to have money certainly when due; advantage to Countrey Chapmen, by reviving Trade amongst them again, and advantage to the Gentlemen who will save the charges of journeys to London to provide what he may have in the Countrey, and thus Gentlemen being in the Countrey and keeping Horses, and good houses will take off their Tenants provision, cause such a consumption of them that the price of them and of his Lands thereby will quickly be raised. But these things and a hundred more that might be named, (only it is feared they would be too long,) these are nei­ther conducing to Travellors healths, or business, but Stage-Coaches are, Ergo to be encouraged.

4. These Coaches are not absolutely necessary to any person, for sick and aged persons may travel in the Long Coaches aforementioned, with more ease and better conveniency to them, then the hurrying Coaches that travel so early and late, and run so far of a day, and stop so little by the way, and they are much better for children.

They are not useful to others, for any man may hier a Coach if his condition or business requires it, or travel in his own Coach.

But these Coaches are imposed upon many, for since they have been set up in such multitudes, men careless of keeping good horses sold them, and they are now forced to come by Coach or no way; Keepers of Horses to Lett to hyer, being so discouraged by them, that they keep none; upon all these accounts it is hoped the Arguments used for continuing the Stage-Coaches, makes clear for the suppressing them, since men without Coaches may travel more to the advantage and benefit of the publick, with as little or less ex­pence of money and time, and yet do infinitely more good with it than by travelling in Coaches, and may Travel with most advantage to their healths and business.

And since Running Stage-Coaches are neither absolutely necessary to any, or useful to others, more then other Coaches would be, and yet are imposed upon many of the Subjects, Ergo they should be dis­countenanced.

THE long Stage-men tell all people they hinder not the consumption of Horse-meat; for they [...] but 36 Passengers in a Week, and do keep 40 Horses, each of which doth eat double what a S [...] horse eats.

For answer; It is true they keep 40 Horses, and carry but 36 men in a Week; but they carry 3 [...] [...] ral Passengers every Week, and keep the same 40 Horses all the year; so that in one year with 40 [...] they carry 1872. Passengers, which must go and come those Journeys. Let all the world judge w [...] if there were not these Coaches, would not at least 1000 of these Travellers keep Horses for themselv [...] Horses for their Men some of them; so that there would be 1800. at least used to do the work that n [...] do, the like disproportions there is in all the long Stages

Come to your short Stages 20 or 30 Miles a day, each 4 Horses in a Coach, carries 6 Passengers that is, 36 in a Week, which makes 1872. in a Year; Consider then how many Coaches there a [...] Windsor, who with 16 Horses carry 7442. Passengers yearly, 4 at Redding, who with 32 Horses c [...] many; 10 at St. Albons: and so there are to all Towns within 20 or 30 Miles of London. Conside [...] one of these Coaches carrying 1872. Passengers a Year with 4 Horses, how many of these 1872. mu [...] Horses of their own, or hire Horses that would be kept to be let, you would find there would [...] Horses at least kept for one that is now kept, which will occasion the consumption of Horse-meat.

It is observable, Before these Coaches set up, London spent all the Hay, Oats, Beans, Pease wit [...] or 30 Miles off London that could be spared out of the Countrey, and had vast quantities from He [...] Water, and from below Graves-end, many Ships Lading of Beans from Hull, a world of Lincoln-shi [...] from Boston and Lynn, and then Corne and Hay for Horses bore a good Price at London; whic [...] Standard for all Countrey-markets, and then great store of Cattle came from York-shire Lancashire [...] coln-shire, and bore greater Price then now, and that it is not so at this time, is the great prejudice [...] Countrey, and why it is not so now, is plain.

It is in great measure occasioned by these Stage-Coaches, that are so numerous, and common, and g [...] Towns, so that no man now will keep a Horse; Why? because his Rents are fallen he cannot; Why i [...] fallen? because there is no consumption, why no consumption of Horse-meat? because now 40 H [...] the longest Stages, 32 Horses in middle Stages, and 4 Horses in twenty Miles Stages, do the work of [...] 1500. Horses that would otherwise be kept.

In London and Middlesex, before these Coaches set up, abundance of Merchants and oth [...] Trades-men, as well as all Gentlemen, considering their occasions some to ride to Fai [...] Markets, others to take their pleasure, or go to their Countrey-Houses, keep Horses for themselv [...] for their men; but when the Act for restraining the Hackney-Coaches in London to 400. came out were above 1200. in London, who finding they could not work, then removed and placed themsel [...] 3 in a Town, in almost every little Town or Village within 10 or 12 Miles, and all along the River of 7 and at each Town near the said River; so that now Citizens and Gentlemen in Middlesex. t [...] Horses, and men to look to those Horses, and Horses for them to ride with them, having a Passag [...] Shilling or two from or into any Town or place about London keep no Horses, nor the men they us [...] and Gentlemen that come to Town in Coaches, coming without Men or Horses; hinder the great [...] tion of provision for Man and Beast, that used to be in London, London not being now able to spend wh [...] within twenty Miles of it; nor the Beasts that come from the Countries aforesaid, which is to the great p [...] of the Gentlemen and the Grasiers, and by this means Pasture-lands about London are fallen a third [...]

These Coaches ruine the Water-men, carry all Passengers that used to be Skuller or Oar-fares, an [...] the breeding Sea-men for the use of the Kingdom.

They hinder the breed of Horses, of which there will be a necessity for all Gentlemen to apply th [...] unto when Stage-Coaches are put down, otherwise the Kingdom cannot be served.

They ruin the 400. Hackney-Coaches in London that are Licensed, pay 5 l a Year, are bound to k [...] Horses and Coaches; for these short Stage-men bring and carry all Passengers to all Towns within [...] of London, and come into London, break and annoy the Streets, yet pay nothing towards repairi [...] if they were down, at least 100. or 150. of the 400. would be hired out of London, by which t [...] would be less broken or annoyed.

They not only hinder the consumption of Leather, by making Boots, Saddles, Portmantues, [...] Holsters, Belts, Girts, useless, but hinder making many Coaches; for if they were down, there [...] made two for every one that is now made.

They prejudice the Post-office certainly, when Coachmen within 20 Miles of London offer to g [...] Masters 15 or 20 l. per annum a piece for the benefit of their Letters,.

They must hinder the excise, when it is plain, not one moiety of the Beer and Ale is consumed on t [...] or in the Inns in London, that there was when Gentlemen did travel with Servants, the Inn-keeper [...] two thirds so much for the Excise as they used to do.

In short, Stage-Coaches are become by their numerousness a common Nusance, and tend to the [...] on of the whole Kingdom, so that from all Parts and great Cities and Towns in England complai [...] against them, and most of them petition for suppressing them. And in as much it is as true, the Pl [...] the War destroyed many people, which hinder a great consumption of what was formerly, the [...] now there is to use all mean [...] to suppress those projects that tend to the hindering of the consumptio [...] may, and certainly will be consumed when they are destroyed. And such sort he Reasons aforesaid [...] Coaches▪ Ergo. not to be countenanced.