<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><?xml-stylesheet type="text/css" href="http://www.textcreationpartnership.org/docs/code/pfs.css"?><TEI xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0">
   <teiHeader>
      <fileDesc>
         <titleStmt>
            <title>Memorandums of the conferences held between the brethren scrupled at the Engagement; and others who were satisfied with it. On Feb. 15. and 22. and March 1. 1649.</title>
         </titleStmt>
         <extent>Approx. 87KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 22 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images.</extent>
         <publicationStmt>
            <publisher>Text Creation Partnership,</publisher>
            <pubPlace>Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) :</pubPlace>
            <date when="2016-02">2016-02 (EEBO-TCP Phase 2).</date>
            <idno type="DLPS">A89040</idno><idno type="EEBO-CITATION">99863043</idno>
  <idno type="VID">115225</idno>
  <idno type="EEBO-PROQUEST">2240959808</idno>
  
            <idno type="STC">Wing M1681</idno>
            <idno type="STC">Thomason E610_2</idno>
            <idno type="STC">ESTC R202912</idno>
            <idno type="PROQUEST">99863043</idno>
            <availability><p>This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the
    institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation
    Partnership. This text is available for reuse, according to the terms of <ref target="https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/"> Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal
    licence</ref>. The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial
    purposes, all without asking permission.</p></availability>
         </publicationStmt>
         <seriesStmt>
            <title>Early English books online text creation partnership.</title>
         </seriesStmt>
         <notesStmt><relatedItem type="facs" target="https://data.historicaltexts.jisc.ac.uk/view?pubId=eebo-99863043e"/>
            <note>(EEBO-TCP ; phase 2, no. A89040)</note>
            <note>Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 115225)</note>
            <note>Images scanned from microfilm: (Thomason Tracts ; 94:E610[2])</note>
         </notesStmt>
         <sourceDesc>
            <biblFull>
               <titleStmt>
                  <title>Memorandums of the conferences held between the brethren scrupled at the Engagement; and others who were satisfied with it. On Feb. 15. and 22. and March 1. 1649.</title>
               </titleStmt>
               <extent>[2], 40 p.   </extent>
               <publicationStmt>
                  <publisher>Printed by William Du-gard,</publisher>
                  <pubPlace>London :</pubPlace>
                  <date>1650.</date>
               </publicationStmt>
               <notesStmt>
                  <note>Annotation on Thomason copy: "Aug: 21".</note>
                  <note>Reproduction of the original in the British Library.</note>
               </notesStmt>
            </biblFull>
         </sourceDesc>
      </fileDesc>
      <encodingDesc>
         <projectDesc>
            <p>Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl,
      TEI @ Oxford.
      </p>
         </projectDesc>
         <editorialDecl>
            <p>EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO.</p>
            <p>EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org).</p>
            <p>The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source.</p>
            <p>Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data.</p>
            <p>Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so.</p>
            <p>Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as &lt;gap&gt;s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor.</p>
            <p>The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines.</p>
            <p>Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements).</p>
            <p>Full documentation of the original data capture process is available from the <ref target="http://www.textcreationpartnership.org/docs/.">Text Creation Partnership web site</ref>.
   All versions of the texts are now archived and freely available for download. See <ref target="https://textcreationpartnership.org/faq/#faq05">the TCP Download FAQ</ref>
   for detailed information. The TEI P5 versions are also freely available from the <ref target="https://github.com/textcreationpartnership">TCP Github repository</ref>.</p>
         </editorialDecl>
         <listPrefixDef>
            <prefixDef ident="tcp" matchPattern="([0-9\-]+):([0-9IVX]+)" replacementPattern="http://eebo.chadwyck.com/downloadtiff?vid=$1&amp;page=$2"/>
            <prefixDef ident="char" matchPattern="(.+)" replacementPattern="https://raw.githubusercontent.com/textcreationpartnership/Texts/master/tcpchars.xml#$1"/>
         </listPrefixDef>
      </encodingDesc>
      <profileDesc>
         <langUsage>
            <language ident="eng">eng</language>
         </langUsage>
         <textClass>
            <keywords scheme="http://authorities.loc.gov/">
               <term type="topical_term">Loyalty oaths --  Great Britain --  17th century.</term>
               <term type="geographic_name">Great Britain --  History --  Commonwealth and Protectorate, 1649-1660 --  Early works to 1800.</term>
            </keywords>
         </textClass>
      </profileDesc>
      <revisionDesc>
         <change>
            <date>2014-05 </date>
            <label>Apex CoVantage</label>Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images </change>
         <change>
            <date>2014-11 </date>
            <label>Kate Allen </label>Sampled and proofread </change>
         <change>
            <date>2014-11 </date>
            <label>Kate Allen</label>Text and markup reviewed and edited </change>
         <change>
            <date>2015-03 </date>
            <label>pfs</label>Batch review (QC) and XML conversion </change>
      <change><date>2021-05 </date><label>lb</label>TEI P5 conversion </change></revisionDesc>
   </teiHeader>
   <text xml:lang="eng">
      <front>
         <div type="title_page">
            <pb facs="tcp:115225:1"/>
            <p> MEMORANDUMS OF THE CONFERENCES HELD BETWEEN The <hi>BRETHREN</hi> scrupled at the <hi>ENGAGEMENT;</hi> and others who were satisfied with it.</p>
            <p>On <hi>Feb.</hi> 15. and 22. and <hi>March</hi> 1. 1649.</p>
            <figure>
               <figDesc>crest bearing two shields, one decorated with a cross and the other with a harp</figDesc>
            </figure>
            <p>
               <hi>LONDON,</hi> Printed by <hi>William Du-gard</hi> 1650.</p>
            <pb facs="tcp:115225:2"/>
         </div>
      </front>
      <body>
         <div type="memorandum">
            <pb n="1" facs="tcp:115225:2"/>
            <head>
               <hi>A Memorandum</hi> Feb. 15. 1649.</head>
            <head type="sub">Of the <hi>Conference</hi> held between the <hi>Brethren</hi> scrupled at the <hi>Ingagement,</hi> and others who were satisfied with it.</head>
            <p>
               <hi>The first overture of the</hi> Discours <hi>was this.</hi>
            </p>
            <p>
               <seg rend="decorInit">S</seg>Eeing there are godly and well-meaning men, who have walked together affectio<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>nately heretofore towards one and the same end, to advance a <hi>Gospel Reforma<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tion</hi> in Religion, and to maintein the grounds of a just <hi>libertie</hi> in the Nation: seeing now of late they are unhappily parted, and fallen at a distance on their way; and seeing they still profess to retein their first prin<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ciples, although they now differ in their walking: it would bee very expedient, if not altogether necessarie, for their mutual preservation, and the carrying on of their works, that they should without prejudice, and in a godlie manner consider where they parted one from another, wherefore they parted, and whether yea or no they cannot bee brought again into the way of walking jointly as they did heretofore. Therefore a friendly <hi>motion</hi> was made, that it
<pb n="2" facs="tcp:115225:3"/> would be worth the while to make a trial how this might bee effected.</p>
            <p>Whereupon <hi>another</hi> who liked the motion well, offered that to bring the thing to pass, it would be requisite, first to determine the distinct aim of their Discourses; then to recom<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>mend their design to the blessing of God, and so to proceed as God should guid their thoughts. This advice was fol<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>lowed, and the <hi>aim</hi> of their discourses was agreed upon, that it should bee an <hi>Essay,</hi> how, in a friendlie private and familiar way, the differences fallen out amongst Brethren might bee reconciled, by the removal of som mistakes upon which they are risen between them; and that this aim might bee atteined, they joyned in prayer, to beseech the Father of all mercies, and the God of all consolation to direct their thoughts and affections in a right waie; that they might finde a cure to their wounds, and an healing to their breaches; that they might not inflame and poison their sores, nor miscarrie in the things they went about and intended to his glorie, and their mutuall edification.</p>
            <p>When the prayer to this effect was uttered, the <hi>Discourses</hi> upon the subject taken in hand began, whereof the <hi>first</hi> was to represent the course of former proceedings that God's Providence in an extraordinarie way had shaken the foun<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>dations of the state of <hi>Great Britain,</hi> and carried all along as well in <hi>Scotland,</hi> as in <hi>England,</hi> to this period and issue, by the hand of a <hi>minor</hi> partie; that the Government being shaken, and the power that was, beeing fallen with it, to the ground, it could not bee suffered to lye there, lest all the grounds of common safetie should bee lost irrecoverably; for which caus these that were in place, betrusted with a right to see the government setled, were bound to take it up, and have a care of the management thereof towards the publick good, which they have endeavored faithfully to do by laying the foundations of Religion and Justice, and giving protection to those that should bee true and faithful to the common in<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>terest of necessarie libertie; and although this had been don by them for none other design but common preservation,
<pb n="3" facs="tcp:115225:3"/> and that they had taken in the midst of great opposition their lives in their hands to settle peace and lasting quietness in the Nation, they had caus to griev that their upright mean<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ings and faithful undertakings were otherwise interpreted and construed by such who should have joined with them to carrie on the work; and that it would bee a great happiness, if the Causes why they were avers from such a resolution might bee known and removed.</p>
            <p>To the close of this discours a reply was made to this effect: That the thing which kept mens affections from join<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ing with the present Government was, that they found themselvs as they conceived frustrate at present of the hopes of a reall Reformation in matters of Religion, and of a just libertie and equal administration of Justice; that these hopes not beeing advanced, but hindered by the change of Government; and the Armie who occasioned this change, beeing in all mens opinions rather set for the dissolving, then the setling of Religion, this was a main caus to disaffect Godly spirits from the present powers.</p>
            <p>Hereunto this answer was given: That the whole change was intended by those that made it; for none other end but to gain certainly those hopes by this way of settlement, which could not possibly bee exspected, whiles the former government was in beeing; as appeared by so manie Treaties, wherein nothing could bee gained as satisfactorie to bee a foundation of those hopes. That they, who now manage publik affairs, had don more towards those things then anie that were in places before them; which would evidently ap<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>pear both by the <hi>Declarations</hi> which had been made upon the Change, and by the <hi>Acts</hi> and proceedings of the <hi>supreme power</hi> since the Change; for it will bee found manifestly that as many, if not more, Acts and Laws have been made in one year for setling of the State in a way to purchase these hopes spee<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>dily, then in all the time of the Parlament before; but that no man could rationally exspect a full accomplishment of all such hopes in an instant; chiefly when so great obstructions stood in the way; but if all that were godly would concur to
<pb n="4" facs="tcp:115225:4"/> engage with the Government for these ends, their hopes and desires might speedily bee compassed; but if they would not make use of this opportunitie; that then the Magistrate would bee guiltless, and the fault would bee upon such as refused to do their dutie.</p>
            <p>Hereunto <hi>another</hi> made this replie. But the present Govern<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ment doth obstruct their own work themselvs; for the <hi>En<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>gagement</hi> which is offered to bee taken, is one of the things which doth occasion the greatest distance of mens spirits in these times: and, except it can bee reconciled and made appa<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>rently to consist with former engagements, and particularly with the National Covenant, there could bee no concur<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>rence exspected from those who were scrupled in Conscience at the taking of it.</p>
            <p>To this an Answer was made to this purpose: that to en<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ter upon scruples of Conscience; to dispute matters of that nature with Ministers, was not a thing to bee exspected from men of secular employments; that these would bee able to sway them by Arguments relating to conscience: but that an Essay might bee made, as to matters of fact, to rectifie som mistakes which might occasion the scruples of Conscience: and that grounds might bee offered to clear the equitie of the present Government in their proceedings: to which effects it was said to bee observable; that the scruples at present taken up in reference to the National Covenant were raised by the <hi>Scots,</hi> and som in these parts; rather from the not observing or laying aside of som outward formalities relating to the end and matter of the Covenant, then from any defect from the true end and substance thereof. For the true <hi>end</hi> for which the Covenant was framed at first, was, <hi>to main<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tein the Godly,</hi> and then persecuted partie of the Nation, <hi>against the prophane partie</hi> thereof; and that the true <hi>Re<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ligion</hi> and just <hi>Libertie,</hi> necessarie for the comfortable walk<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ing of Godly men, in Gods way, might bee upheld by the Magistracie of the Land; and that this end, at the first fram<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ing of the Covenant, was solely intended by the <hi>Scots</hi> themselvs; and that all other things were then postposed unto
<pb n="5" facs="tcp:115225:4"/> this by them, although it hath not been of late observed by som of them, as will appear undeniably by that which fell out at the first making of the Covenant; which is a Mysterie heretofore not known to everie bodie, but yet a verie great truth: That when the Commissioners of Parlament were in <hi>Scotland,</hi> and the Covenant agreed upon with the <hi>Scots</hi> by them; the Lords hous here in <hi>England;</hi> and a partie of the Commons apprehending, that, by the coming in of the <hi>Scots,</hi> matters would becom irreconcilable towards the King; they made an underhand agreement with the King; and in the Hous of Commons matters were brought so far, that it was debated and put to the question, whether they should enter in Covenant with the <hi>Scots</hi> yea or no? the hous was divided thereupon, Master <hi>Hollis</hi> was to number the Nega<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tives; and Sir <hi>Thomas Barrington</hi> the Affirmatives, and that by a mistake of Master <hi>Hollis's</hi> reckoning, it was carried in the Negative, till by a review it was found out that the Affirma<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tives were more by eight persons. When this came to bee known in <hi>Scotland</hi> how near the Parlament in <hi>England</hi> was brought to revers all that was setled by Covenant between them and the <hi>English</hi> Commissioners; the <hi>Scots</hi> had a confe<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>rence with the Commissioners about it; and at it two things were declared by them; the one by way of <hi>Warning</hi> to the <hi>Eng<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>lish,</hi> the other by way of <hi>Protestation</hi> concerning themselvs: the Warning they gave to us was, that if ever the ends of the Covenant and the Caus to bee prosecuted by it, should bee de<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>serted; that it would bee by that partie, which procured those votes in the Hous of Commons at that time, and that there<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>fore wee should in time to com take heed how wee did join our Counsels with them; lest by their inconstancie to their resolutions and treacherie against the Caus, all the design might miscarrie. The Protestation which they made for themselvs was, that supposing the King could not bee indu<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ced to take the Covenant, and that the Hous of Lords should in like manner stand off; nay, and that the Hous of Com<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>mons should also refuse to take it, or desert it, when taken; that, if then there should appear but a partie of any twen<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tie
<pb n="6" facs="tcp:115225:5"/> Gentlemen of the Nation to rise up for it, that they would join with them, and venture all for the Caus against all the would, to maintein it.</p>
            <p>So far were they then from standing upon the formalitie which is now stood upon, or making that a scruple of Con<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>science which is now pretended to bee stumbled at; although since they themselvs have been the men that joined with that partie whereof they gave us warning, and are so far gon from their first <hi>Principles</hi> and <hi>Resolutions,</hi> that in concurrence with them for a Royal interest they postpose now the main end and substance of the Caus and Covenant to that which then was counted but a formalitie, and wholly disregarded, and if the Covenant should bee understood to binde the con<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>science according to the meaning of the first contrivers, then wee may cleerly see by this what their meaning was to bee binding, and what not to bee binding in it, in cases of ne<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>cessitie.</p>
            <p>To this Narrative som other circumstantial matters were added to confirm the same, &amp; one who had been familiar with my Lord <hi>Wariston</hi> said, that when hee came first hither in those daies hee was wont to say that the Parlaments caus was not at so low an ebb when all the armies were defeated; as when Master <hi>Hollis</hi> told the Votes of the Hous of Commons wrong. Whereunto was further added by another; that all our troubles and changes were fallen out more from the Scots changing of their Principles, and manner of proceed<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ings; then from anie breach of Covenant in those who at present manage publick affairs: becaus it was never intend<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ed by those on both sides that made the Covenant that it should ever oblige us, to the circumstantial parts of Government (mentioned therein) otherwise then as these were to bee subordinate unto the main ends and substantials of the Covenant; which were nothing els but the preserva<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tion of a godly partie, with the true Religion and just liber<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ties of the Nations respectively, wherewith the present en<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>gagement is understood to bee wholly consistent and con<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>sonant.</p>
            <pb n="7" facs="tcp:115225:5"/>
            <p> This scruple beeing thus far cleered, another did offer a <hi>second</hi> scruple which hee said did lie with himself, and som others thus; that the subscription did import, either a con<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>senting to that which the present Governors had don to take the power upon them; which for conscience sake they could not do, when they saw no legalitie in their proceed<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ings: or an approbation of their present possession of power or <hi>postfacto</hi> to confirm them in it; which also not beeing found legal they knew not how to do: as for himself, hee could wave the question of their title and right to Government: hee would bee peaceable and quiet in the station wherein God had set him, doing nothing against the power for anie partie disaffected or opposit unto it; but how to bee true and faithful in a waie of active Obedience to support it as it stood, was a thing which in conscience hee knew not how to justifie, therefore hee thought it would bee just that hee and others who all along had been faithful to the Caus, and now were harmless, might bee freed from the penaltie to bee in<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>flicted upon those that take not the <hi>Engagement.</hi>
            </p>
            <p>The Answer to this was, that the intent of the Engage<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ment was not to oblige anie man to ratifie anie things past before the forming of the Engagement; but onely to do that which was a dutie at present, and in time to com; and that it might justly bee conceived, if once the Engagement were freely taken by all, that it would make the title and right of the Government that now is stronger, or as strong as anie that ever was before it: But as to the thing scrupled at, which was the acknowledging of the government, and the yielding of active Obedience thereunto, in things just and lawful in themselvs, it was said, <hi>First,</hi> that the beeing of a Government was absolutely necessarie for the preservation of humane societies, and that of the beeing and existence thereof there could bee no intermission with the safetie of Societies; when therefore by the supreme Providence it was taken out of one hand, it must needs instantly fall into ano<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ther, and by right to that hand which claim's it by the best title. <hi>Secondly,</hi> that it was absolutely necessarie for the beeing
<pb facs="tcp:115225:6"/> of a Government, that the people should acknowledg it to bee <hi>the Government;</hi> and that the not acknowledging of it to bee the Government was utterly destructive thereunto; for except it have a <hi>beeing</hi> in <hi>consent,</hi> it cannot have a beeing in <hi>acting. Thirdly,</hi> that it is absolutely necessarie for the ruling Power to put the Engagement to a point either off or on; because without the settlement of som relation between the Rulers, and those that are ruled, the Government will un<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>avoidably bee dissolved, and can com to nothing but ruine to the State. <hi>Fourthly,</hi> that it com's at last all to one issue, whether a man doth actually oppose the present power, or not acknowledg it actually; and that in the Providence of a State, this is to bee counted all one; becaus the difference be<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tween not acknowledging and opposing a Government, is none in the event; for both tend to exstinguish it; but onely in the manner of the exstinction, the one doth it by a vio<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>lent assault, the other by a lingring consumption; and whe<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ther you quench fire by casting water upon it, or giving it no fuel; it is all one; or whether you cut a man's throat on famish him to death, it is all one, as to his destruction, and all one, as to the tendencie of your action, chiefly when it is in your power to give him food to save his life, and you will not do it. <hi>Fifthly,</hi> it is acknowledged by all, and never was denied, that <hi>Protection</hi> and <hi>Allegiance</hi> are <hi>relatives;</hi> So that in Justice no Subject can claim protection as due to him from his Ruler, but upon the same ground the Ruler may claim Allegiance as due to him from his Subject: and if either of these bee refused, the other is made void: Now there can bee no Allegiance without the owning of the power; if therefore anie doth sit still, and will not own the power beeing meer<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ly Passive under it, hee disown's it, and forfeit's all protection from it. Nor should a State admit of such a <hi>Neutralist,</hi> bee<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>caus it is destructive thereunto, and such Neutrals upon this ground will join with anie opposite partie when it appear's. Now the forefight of a State must take things in clear view as present, and act towards the preventing of an evil in time unavoidable, as if it now were in beeing.</p>
            <pb n="9" facs="tcp:115225:6"/>
            <p> Against this it was further thus insisted: but this is a hard case; that becaus a mans conscience cannot own the present Government, although hee hath concurred hitherto in the whole Caus, and gon all along 99 miles with his leaders, that now becaus hee cannot also go the 100 mile with som of them, hee must loos all the benefit of his former labors; nay although in time to com hee is resolved to bee peace<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>able, harmless and quiet, and not to contradict or dispute the title whether it bee legal or no.</p>
            <p>But hereunto this was answered, that in the point of con<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>science the Obligation is equal to <hi>oppose</hi> and <hi>not to own;</hi> and who ever think's himself bound in conscience <hi>not to own,</hi> hee must in profession <hi>disown</hi> when occasion call's him to it: and if anie the least opportunitie bee offered to check by another partie, the Government which hee disown's, hee will finde himself in conscience bound to oppose and destroie it also. That the conscience of the Magistrate is bound to act in the waie wherein hee stand's as stronglie as the Conscience of anie who doth oppose or not own him: and if godly men on each side are led by the dictates of Conscience to oppose one anothers beeing, and to cross each others standing, as on the one side to put down Magistracie, and on the other not to protect, or not to bee willing to protect the Ministrie; this will bee at last the <hi>killing of the witnesses,</hi> by making themselvs a prey to the common adversaries: and if this is determined by God over us, and if I should know that it should com to pass as certainly as that Christ was to die for the salvation of Mankind; yet I would not wittingly have a hand in bringing it about, no more then in killing the just one: if then God intend anie such thing over us, it is pro<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>bable that by this means his counsel is to bring it to pass, by suffering the consciences of godly men in the waie of the Magistracie and Ministerie irreconcilably to jar about mat<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ters of Dutie: but the guilt will lie at their dore, who refuse in things lawfull to concur to the support of each other. Now the Magistracie doth offer <hi>Protection,</hi> and support to the <hi>Ministerie;</hi> if the Ministerie will not dis<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>cern,
<pb n="10" facs="tcp:115225:7"/> and oppose the beeing of a Magistracie.</p>
            <p>To this <hi>another</hi> added somthing to this effect: that the Commons of <hi>England,</hi> in <hi>Parlament</hi> assembled, did claim by right and according to the Laws of the Nation the Supreme <hi>Legislative</hi> power, as residing originally in themselvs, and not inherent in King and Lords; and that (if it were re<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>quisite to satisfie conscientious scruples) this might bee made out to the full; by shewing that in the <hi>Legislative</hi> power of the Nation, King and Lords were but complemen<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tal forms and accidents, and no fundamental substances, or parts of the beeing of the governing power, So that no laws or government can bee without them: and that from the third Article of the National Covenant this might plainly bee gathered; becaus in it the King (upon whom the Lords were onely dependents) his Person and just Au<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>thoritie were onely conditionally provided for, viz as bee<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ing included in the preservation of Religion, and the liber<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ties of the Nation. Then again to confirm this, it was further added by another; that at several conferences, more then once this had been told the Lords; That the Commons understood their right to bee Supreme, in making Laws as they suppose them to bee needful, and that if the Lords would not concur with them, they had power and right to Act without them in providing for <hi>Commonsafetie,</hi> which they declared they were resolved to do: and in the Case of the <hi>Militia,</hi> som Lords were resolved to have com and sat with the Commons in their Hous, and owned thereby their right.</p>
            <p>These scruples beeing thus discussed, <hi>another</hi> in a more moderate way spake to this effect; That hee had not hitherto acted with the Parlament upon the ground of anie positive Laws of the Land, but upon the ground of natural <hi>equitie,</hi> and visible <hi>necessitie</hi> for common safetie; that concerning the submission due to superior powers, out of <hi>Rom.</hi> 13. Di<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>vines did differ in judgment; and that although there were more for one opinion then for another, yet the reasons of either side, and not their names would sway with him; That
<pb n="11" facs="tcp:115225:7"/> to justifie a <hi>Title</hi> to Government som did take present <hi>possession</hi> to bee sufficient; as for mine own part (said hee) I am sure that I have a just and clear title to what at present I possess; but that the Rulers in whose hands is the Government at present, have but a disputable and doubtful title to that which they possess is no less clear: now what equitie there is in it, that I should lose all that I justly do possess by an indubitable title, becaus I do not acknowledg a title that is dubitable, as by the Act prescribing the taking of the <hi>Engagement</hi> (if I do not take it) I shall bee forced to do, is a thing whereof the Justice may bee questioned; Chiefly seeing none other mat<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ter of guilt can bee laid to my charge, but this, not acknow<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ledging of a doubtful title; which I, for conscience sake, can<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>not do; and seeing in all things els I am not onely without blame, but have deserved for my concurrence with the Parla<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ment, and good services, a reward and prais from it, for all which considerations som expedient should bee thought up<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>on how to eas and save tender consciences in this case, lest it bee found that they are more rigorously dealt withall, then very Malignants, who have been in Arms, and endeavored to destroie the Parlament, who have yet a fift of their estate left them when they are sequestred; but here the penaltie of not subscribing the Engagement is to those that have been, and still are harmless, far heavier, becaus they are to bee out<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ed of all, within a verie short time, and that without reme<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>die; therefore a twofold remedie was desired to bee procured to these inconveniencies, the one was that to such as meerly for conscience sake could not subscribe, som way of eas should bee thought upon at present to give them more time to consider the matter; and in case of not beeing able to bring their conscience to subscribe to let them have som live<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>lihood, they being truly harmless in their waie. The other remedie to bee thought upon was, whether som explication or declaration of the sens of the Engagement might not bee given by the Hous, to help the weakness of well-meaning men; as that the negative part should bee taken to run with <hi>a non obstante,</hi> thus, <hi>Although the Common-wealth is now established</hi>
               <pb n="12" facs="tcp:115225:8"/>
               <hi>without a King and Hous of Lords.</hi> Or that the word <hi>Common-wealth</hi> might bee understood throughout the Act in one uni<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>form sens, which is but reasonable that in one and the same Act, the same principal word should have but one and the same meaning; and that this meaning of the word <hi>Com<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>mon-wealth</hi> throughout the Act, should bee but the same, which is in the words of the Engagement.</p>
            <p>To the matter of this Discours several things were offe<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>red, and som things were in the thoughts of som to have been offered if time had permitted, which here shall briefly bee touched, together with the most material things which were offered so far as they are remembred.</p>
            <p>First, it was said, that if the point of plenarie possession should bee pitcht upon to bee considered, it might bee made out, that a full possession of the place of Government doth give a title to govern, and that all subjects owe submission to him who is in the place of power and government, in things <hi>perse</hi> just and lawful; amongst which undeniably this is one, to bee <hi>true and faithful to the common welfare of the Societie where<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>in wee live:</hi> But besides the plenarie possession there is a peaceable possession, which is laid as a ground in the Act for taking the Engagement; for the Preface of the Act doth shew both the end for which the Engagement is to bee ta<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ken, and the right by which it is prescribed; the right is in the present peaceable possession of government; and the end is to preserv the Common-wealth in peace, and to unite all the members thereof in one waie and relation towards each other, and towards their Superiors for common safetie; now the settlement of that relation is absolutely necessarie for safetie, if therefore hee that is possest of all power &amp; places of Government in a Common-wealth is to bee counted a Ma<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>gistrate, and if a Magistrate possessing the government in peace should not in tend to settle this relation, that the Publick may bee preserved in peace; and that assurance may bee gained of mutual safetie between subject and subject, and between him<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>self and them in time to com, hee would neglect the most fundamental dutie of government, and make himself acces<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>sarie
<pb n="13" facs="tcp:115225:8"/> to his own overthrow, and to the ruine of all; it is therefore absolutely necessarie to have som engagement to settle a mutual relation for safetie. Now the present Govern<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ment having the whole power in their hands, and having given a years proof that they are able to give protection to those that are under them, and beeing desirous to assure all in the peaceable possession of that which they doe enjoy, re<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>quire of all a reciprocal testimonie of their allegiance, which with a good conscience cannot bee refused unto them; and who ever doth refuse it, hee will bee found without excuse when things are put home to his conscience, for the Magi<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>strate hath hitherto don clearlie what is his duty; which is to procure that, without which there can bee no safetie or continued settlement in the Land: If therefore others, and chieflie those of the Ministerie do not their part towards the same end, the guilt of publick ruine (if God bring's it upon us) will bee brought home to their account; and then what title soëver, and how clear or undeniable soëver it is to their present possession, it will bee lost by their own de<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>fault. Nor will they lose their own rights alone, but they will bee the caus of hazarding all other mens possessions; therefore to prevent this evil (which in the foresight of the Government ought to bee as present) a just remedie is used, <hi>viz.</hi> a penaltie is denounced, against those who make them<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>selvs the autors of ruine unto all; a penaltie proportionable unto their fault, were to bee deprived of all beeing; but by the Act they are deprived onely of protection from that state to which they will not at all concur to give it anie beeing and safetie: Hee that will give the Magistrate no beeing over him, and doth what in him lie's to deprive all his neighbors of their comfortable beeing about him, what right hee can have to anie beeing under the Magistrate; how hee can with anie face crave it of him; or what measure of comfortable protection hee can exspect to bee given him equal to his neigbors, who are faithful to the Government, is in com<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>mon sens no wayes imaginable: therefore the penaltie is not to bee counted so rigorous; as just. As for the dubitable or
<pb n="14" facs="tcp:115225:9"/> indubitable titles to possessions, when all lie's equally at the stake that can make no difference: nor can it bee doubted whether the title of supreme power is rightly attributed to those that are actually in possession of it; and that to the eyes of all the world, the possession of their place is as indu<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>bitably now theirs, as anie man doth possess by anie title whatsoëver. As for those who formerly have been in Arms, and beeing sequestred were permitted to have the fist part of their estate, whereas in the Act for subscribing the Engage<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ment, this is not to bee granted to anie non-subscriber, though heretofore never so faithful; the reason of the equitie of this may easily bee understood, if the difference of the former, and if the present cases bee considered rationally; for the Cavaliers and those that appeared for the King against the Parlament, had then a present visible power over them opposite to that of the Parlament, and a standing re<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>lation to the King so long as hee was in beeing, which they endeavored to maintein so long as hee was over them; al<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>though therefore they opposed the Parlament, yet it was un<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>der the conduct of a visible power which did contest with the power of the Parlament for the Supremacie, and so they did what they did under the shield of a Protector, and were not themselvs the prime autors of the disturbance of the State; but now in all this business the case is not so, the matter is quite of another nature; the men that now will not engage, make themselvs the prime authors of the disturbances which may ensue, even as the King made himself heretofore in a manner the sole Autor of these evills. The former relation is wholly dissolved, becaus there is none other government at all in beeing or in appearance but that which crave's Al<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>legiance, the former power to those that had sworn Allegi<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ance to it, had som title to give protection, though not that which it pretended unto; and therefore those that assisted it were the more excusable: but now there is no color for anie excuse to such as refuse Allegiance to present Protectors. The Cavaliers were guiltie of hindering the reducement of the King to reason; but such as refuse to take the present
<pb n="15" facs="tcp:115225:9"/> Engagement, are guiltie of dissolving all Government, so far as in them lieth; and of reducing all our settlement now in view unto a ruinous confusion. And although hereto<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>fore they have gon along with the <hi>Parlament,</hi> what will it avail the <hi>Parlament,</hi> and the Nation, if when they have don a geeat deal for them a long while, they in one moment un<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>do it all again? If you draw up a bond, and sign it, and seal it, and promis in it a fair estate unto mee; but in steed of deli<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>vering it to mee, tear it in pieces before my face, what the better am I for your bond's? is it not a greater dis-respect and reproach unto mee, then if no bond had been intended towards me? Gods waie of dealing with the children of <hi>Israël,</hi> who beeing com to the border of the Land of <hi>Canaan,</hi> would not enter into it, but murmured against their settle<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ment in it, and took up thoughts to return again to <hi>Egypt,</hi> to bee under <hi>Pharoah,</hi> will justifie the equitie of this sen<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tence; for hee deprived them of all their right to have anie possession in it, although they had followed him from <hi>Egypt,</hi> and through the whole Wilderness. Thus then the penaltie is but just, that such as murmure against the settle<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ment of a free <hi>Common-wealth</hi> in this Nation, should bee deprived of the benefit thereof; and of an establishment therein, becaus they will not enter into anie relation to<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>wards it.</p>
            <p>Lastly, concerning the expedients to procure eas and a remedie to tender consciences, nothing could bee don there<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>in, but by the Hous, and what possibilitie there might bee to move the Hous rationally thereunto, was not at all in view; yet as to the matter of execution, and inflicting the punishment, the power to judg who are more or less guiltie, and who came or came not within the compass of the Act, will bee in the hand of the Committee of Indemnitie: whose work it will bee perhaps, amongst other things, to consider how men are scrupled harmlesly or hurtfullie, and what assurance they will bee able to give, or not to give of their good behavior in after-times, and accordingly in all likelihood they will deal with them.</p>
            <pb n="16" facs="tcp:115225:10"/>
            <p> Somthing was afterward inquired into, concerning the true meaning of the words, <hi>True</hi> and <hi>Faithful;</hi> and the answer was, That the words were to bee understood in a Legal sens, as when a Tenant take's an Oath of <hi>Fealtie</hi> to a Lord of a Mannor, his promise is not to betraie him, or do him prejudice, but to perform all duties proper to a Tenant and annexed to the Tenure of his Farm. So that in the sens of the Law to bee <hi>true</hi> and <hi>faithful</hi> must bee understood with a respect to the condition in which one is that make's it; as importting the duties which are proper thereunto.</p>
            <p>Somthing also was declared concerning the word <hi>Com<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>monwealth,</hi> that if the meaning thereof were explained to bee that which <hi>I. D.</hi> has in his considerations, that then it was conceived few or none would scruple at the subscribing of the Engagement.</p>
         </div>
         <div type="memorandum">
            <pb n="17" facs="tcp:115225:11"/>
            <head>
               <hi>A Memorandum</hi> Feb. 22. 1649.</head>
            <p>THe motion to endeavor a reconcilement of differen<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ces, and a good understanding between Brethren en<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>gaged in the same caus, for the advancement of com<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>mon safetie, and to beget a friendlie concurrence in matters of publick concernment, was renewed, after that the intent of the Discourses which should bee entertained, was recom<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>mended unto God by prayer.</p>
            <p>To further this motion one did offer, that the most readie and expedient waie to engage the affections of men that were godlie and conscientious, would bee to finde out som eas for them, lest for their scruple of conscience they might not bee utterlie undon; for the rigorous execution of the penal<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tie denounced in the Act against non-subscribers of the En<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>gagement, beeing inflicted upon well-deserving and harmless men, would break and dissolv all to pieces; whereas a ten<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>derness of affection to such as were of a tender conscience would gain the hearts of those that mean well, and would extremely well-beeseem those who have hitherto pleaded for an exemption from penalties in reference to scruples of con<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>science.</p>
            <p>Hereupon another offered that to take into consideration the waie of giving satisfaction to those that were scrupled would bee a clearer and readier waie to unite men's intenti<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ons; and that it hopefully might bee don, could bee con<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>jectured by former experiences in the debates and conferences held at the making of the National Covenant, wherein at last the differences of opinions were removed, and all agreed in one sens to have a minde to carrie on the work of Refor<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>mation; and if now they, who are scrupled at the Engage<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ment could (as is supposed they might) receiv satisfaction to their doubts, then the labor of seeking how to eas them
<pb n="18" facs="tcp:115225:12"/> from the danger of a penaltie might bee spared; which eas would not settle their conscience at al, but only their outward estates; nor make them useful at all to the publick, but onely settle them rather at a distance from it. But if their consci<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ence can bee gained to a concurrence with the present settle<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ment; then not onely the caus of their fears, but the incon<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>veniencie of their distance from their brethren will bee re<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>moved; therefore this was offered as the most expeditious waie to gain the end which was sought for: chiefly seeing it cannot well bee exspected, that anie man can give a settled assurance of his harmlesness towards the State concerning which hee doth profess himself unsettled in conscience, what to think of it; for according to imergencies his conscience may oblige him to act otherwise hereafter then now liee is inclined to do: but if his conscience bee clear of doubts, both hee and they to whom hee doth ingage himself, may promise to themselvs a constancie of concurrence, which is the thing aimed at.</p>
            <p>Another offered between these 2 advises a <hi>medium,</hi> shewing, that of right the point of Satisfaction should have the pre<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>cedencie; but becaus it might prove a verie long and difficult work to compass, and manie preparatives would beerequisite unto it; and the present urgent necessities seem to require som speedie resolution towards the waie of an amiable correspon<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>dencie, to give assurance, and lay the grounds of common safe<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tie, lest sudden breaches might prevent, and disturb all future endeavors of mutual satisfaction, therefore the thoughts con<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>cerning the point of eas might bee in som general way reflect<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ed upon and sought out, that the matters belonging to the satisfaction of conscience afterward with less trouble of mind might bee with leisure, and maturely considered, whereunto manie things would bee requisite to be predetermined, before a satisfactorie conclusion could bee hoped for: As for ex<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ample, What principles should be agreed upon? what on all sides must bee granted to bee clear unto the conscience right<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ly informed? by what rules wee should proceed to decide and deduce doubtful matters from known principles? how
<pb n="19" facs="tcp:115225:10"/> and in what order matters should bee proposed? and what Cautions to bee used to prevent endless debates? all which would require much time and serious thoughts; and then when wee should com to particulars, it would bee found that all the scruples of everie one are not the same, but som will rise one waie, som another; and about the same scru<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ples, that which will satisfie one, will not bee clear and satis<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>factorie unto another; and how to prevent the inconvenien<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ces, and intricacies of the discours, which may arise for want of foresight in these matters; and will make all the attempts of satisfaction fruitless, as to Conscience, could not of a sudden bee spoked to: And therefore to prepare a waie to gain true satisfaction upon solid grounds, the point of eas might at first bee considered, at least so far as to have som prospect of the possibilitie thereof. To this another made a reply, that in reference to common safetie and the securitie of the State, and for laying the grounds of settlement, it would not bee at all expedient to advance the point of eas, before the point of satisfaction; that although a full satis<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>faction could not speedily bee given to those that were scru<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>pled, yet that the main of their scruples might bee lookt upon, and a trial made to remove the grounds thereof, which happily might bring more inward eas to those that seek eas in outward things, then anie uncertain hopes can yield, which upon conjectural appearances may bee proposed, for when all shall bee reviewed which may in probabilitie reach forth an expedient to eas; yet nothing can bee effectually determined, but still wee shall bee in suspens, whether or no the eas desired may bee obteined from the superior powers; but if wee enter upon the discours of satisfying scruples, as it is the most natural method to begin with that Subject; so it will yield a certain profit to the publick concernments so far as it may prove useful to remove the mistakes which occasion doubts and discontentments. Therefore the point of satis<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>faction was offered to have the precedencie.</p>
            <p>This also carried it, and the method whereinto the dis<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>cours did fall naturally was this; that in the proposal of
<pb n="20" facs="tcp:115225:11"/> scruples, such as declared where they did stick, <hi>first</hi> shewed how far they could complie with the present Government; and <hi>then</hi> what the matter was wherein they were scrupled, which in som was onely to subscribe the Engagement <hi>in terminis:</hi> in others it was somthing more; they who desired onely to bee excused from subscribing the Engagement <hi>in ter<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>minis,</hi> declared that they could acknowledg the Parlament to bee a Government: and as beeing under their power and protection, not to dispute their Title, nor to practise anie thing in word or deed directly or indirectly against them, nor to join with anie partie at home or abroad to their pre<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>judice, but to bee peaceable and quiet; and in things just and lawful obedient for the publick good to their commands. And when som had thus far opened themselvs to the grat content of others, a motion was made that all the rest who were scrupled should bee induced to open themselvs in the same way, as others had don. But unto this motion an Answer was made, that no such thing ought to bee imposed upon anie, but that it ought to bee free to everie one to de<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>clare himself, or to bee silent as hee should see caus; and in such a manner as hee should think good; either for a com<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>pliance or against it: To this Answer som thing was replied which begot a small debate, concerning the waie of proceed<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ing, which had this issue, that others who could not com up to such a compliance as others formerly had declared they could condescend unto, did open themselvs so far as their light and affections did lead them. These could not own the Government, but manifested a resolution to yield onely Passive obedience; and one or two of them enlarged them<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>selvs to shew the exceptions which they had against the pre<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>sent establishment; the <hi>first</hi> that spake at large upon this Sub<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ject, gave a Sens of everie word of the <hi>Engagement,</hi> which hee excepted against in a fivefold respect (if I bee well remem<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>bred) viz. As a Christian, as a Protestant▪ as an English man, as a Parlamentier, and as a Covenanter: to which som brief reply was made rather to state the question, and contract all to the main point of doubt, then to give particular answers
<pb n="21" facs="tcp:115225:12"/> to things which were alleged, becaus the time was far spent; but another of the scruplers who spake last, opened himself to this effect; that besides all the doubts which others had hitherto raised; Som against the standing and beeing of the Government; som against the proceedings thereof; som a<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>gainst the words of the Engagement; som against the sub<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>scribing thereof; there was yet to him one scruple above all the rest, which hee found to bee the ground of all his dissa<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tisfaction; and believed it to bee so with manie more, viz. That the hous of Commons was discomposed, and in a manner, (as hee call'd it, craving leav to use the word) broken by force. For (said hee) suppose al to bee true, which hath been alleged, to satisfie the main of the scruples, which have been, mentioned, <hi>viz.</hi> That the Supreme Law-making and govern<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ing power, is neither in the King nor Hous of Lords; but in the representatives of the Commons: and that therefore as the Emergencies have required, the government, as to the out<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ward form hath been formerly by them alterable; and might now have been perhaps lawfully upon these Emergencies al<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tered, had they been the true Representatives of the Com<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>mons; that is an entire Hous: but if it cannot bee made ap<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>pear that they who now sit are a true Hous, but onely a companie of men, or a part of the hous sitting under a visible force; then it may bee doubted justly whether this hous of Commons hath anie just title to that <hi>Legislative</hi> and supreme Power, which otherwise might have belonged unto it. This scruple was at this time onely thus proposed; and the An<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>swer to bee given to it, was referred till the next occasion of discours, becaus then it was late, and not seasonable to enter vpon so weightie a matter.</p>
         </div>
         <div type="memorandum">
            <pb n="22" facs="tcp:115225:13"/>
            <head>A MEMORANDUM, <hi>March</hi> 1, 1649.</head>
            <p>AFter Praiers, both parties declared their intentions to bee none other, but to entertain, as friends, a pri<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>vate and familiar discours: the one to propose their doubts concerning the present Government, that they might bee resolved; the other to offer unto those that were scrupled at the present proceeding of the Government; the grounds upon which they did think them justifiable, and whereby they did satisfie their own conscience in concurring with them. So that if God would bee pleased to bless the Consideration thereof unto those that were scrupled to re<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ctifie their mistakes, there might bee thenceforth a better un<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>derstanding and more heartie concurrence between them, as it becommeth brethren, in the prosecution of the same Caus.</p>
            <p>This beeing on both sides premised; the doubt, which in the foregoing conference was last proposed, was repeated, and insisted upon at large, by him who offered it in the close of the former discours, who set himself to shew (not by waie of assertion, but onely by way of scruple, that his doubt might bee cleared) that neither the Hous of Commons according to the Law of the Land, though full, was invested with the supreme <hi>Legislative</hi> power; nor this present Hous in a ca<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>pacitie to have that power. And to shew the first it was said, That the known and undoubtedly fundamental Law of the Land was this; that the <hi>Parlament</hi> of <hi>England</hi> is to bee consti<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tuted of King, Lords and Commons; that the Hous of Lords was the Supreme Judicature of the Nation, and that the
<pb n="23" facs="tcp:115225:13"/> Hous of Commons, though full, was so far from being the judicature, that ordinarily it had not so much power as to give an Oath, yet that this present Hous had now in their late proceedings taken this upon them, and altered the former cours of having a King and Lords in Parlament, which how it could bee warranted was not understood although wee should suppose the Hous to bee full, and not liable to anie exception.</p>
            <p>But now that a part of the Hous had taken all this upon them by putting down both King and Hous of Lords, was not conceivable to bee justifiable by anie Law either po<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>sitive or natural.</p>
            <p>To the second, to shew that this present Hous was not in a capacitie to have this power; it was said, that it might bee thought to bee no Hous; becaus the major part of the Mem<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>bers thereof were violently detained from doing their dutie in it, which was such a breach of priviledg, as the like was never known; and becaus all their Acts since the beginning of this change hitherto, have been don under a visible force, and by consequent void, and of none effect to binde as Laws.</p>
            <p>To this (which was the summarie of a large Discours, wherein manie particular matters were circumstantiated) two things were answered, relating to the heads thereof: The first was to shew that the Hous of Commons did claim by right, as the emergencie might bee, the Legislative and Su<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>preme power of the Nation. The second was to shew that this present Hous is justlie to bee accounted an Hous, and to all intents and purposes hath as just a title to this Legisla<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tive power, as the case may bee, as ever anie Hous had.</p>
            <p>Concerning the first, that the Hous of Commons, that is the Representatives of the Nation, did by right claim to themselves, as the case might bee emergent, the Supreme and Legislative power without the King and Lords Hous, this was made apparent, becaus it doth belong to the Representa<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tives of a free people to chuse the Laws by which they should bee ruled, and that it is against the end and beeing of a Parla<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ment (which in nature is nothing but the meeting of the Representatives of a Nation) that anie Laws should bee im<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>posed
<pb n="24" facs="tcp:115225:14"/> upon them: Now where the Law-making power is originally, there is radically the Supremacie of power; for above the Law nothing can bee but the power which makes it, which never did reside in the King, becaus the making of Laws was never debated with him: And for the Lords their meeting was originally onely as the Kings dependents and councellors, therefore in equitie they can pretend to no more then is his right, whose councellors and dependents they are. And that this is asserted according to the Law and Custom of the Land, will appear by the difference of the Writs by which the Members of both Houses are called to sit in Parlament, and by the cours of the Commons, acting in this Parlament towards the King, towards the Lords, and towards the publick.</p>
            <p>The Writs by which the Lords are called to sit in Parla<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ment, mention onely <hi>ad consultandum de arduis Regni;</hi> but the Writs by which the Commons are called do mention that their meeting is <hi>ad determinandum &amp; faciendum, &amp;c.</hi> which are things of a higher and different nature. And seeing by the Act of continuance their Session cannot bee dissolved with<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>out their own consent, they may lawfully sit as long as they see caus to determine and act in the Supremacie of power, that which common safetie doth require; for by the Law of their continuance as Representatives, they are impowred to administer in a Parlamentarie waie, and manage as long as is necessarie for publick safetie the whole trust of the Com<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>mon-wealth by themselvs; that is, without King and House of Lords, as the caus may bee emergent, and as they shall finde necessarie for the peoples good: Nor can they receive from others, or put upon themselvs an incapacitie, to consult, determine, and act what ever in their judgments doth occur to the interest and advantage of those that have intrusted them; and however the King, and Hous of Peers have been heretofore taken in, or rather have obtruded themselves to share in the Legislative power with the peoples Representatives, yet may it not bee doubted, but such the case might bee, that with<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>out and against both King and Hous of Peers, the peoples
<pb n="25" facs="tcp:115225:14"/> Representatives both of Right and Dutie, might and ought to proceed and act, what ever in their judgments was neces<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>sarie for the peoples safetie and good. Nor can it well bee conceived how anie should doubt of this, who can bee at leasure without prejudice seriously to consider the natural ground of the just Constitution of Government in a free people, which having the original of all just power in it self, to manage its own affairs; and the exercise of that power beeing put in the hands of Representatives, their trust must needs bee of an unlimited extent, to do all what is necessarie for the peoples good, so that they may put forth the power of the Nation in such manner, and into such forms as the present time and emergencie shall hold forth to them most conducting for publick good, with such amend<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ments and alterations of the same as they from time to time shall finde necessarie and expedient; and as everie rational man may conceive this, so it will appear wholly undeniable, to those who have been engaged in the Caus of the Parla<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ment against the late King: for without manifest self-con<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>demnation they cannot dispute or denie the truth of this Assertion; for as it is evident throughout, that this Assertion was maintained by both Houses in opposition to the Kings pretences of Prerogative; so the peoples Representatives took libertie as the emergencie gave occasion to assert as their Right, and put in practise as their dutie, what ever occurr'd to them as necessarie for the peoples good without and a<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>gainst the Hous of Peers, and this long before that Hous was removed; and which may bee remembred, the Representa<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tives of the people were excited and encouraged thereunto, and commended therein, by those verie men who now are become disputers and contradicters against this exercise of their power, yea long before they had reduced the common Enemie; for it may not bee forgotten that when the Hous of Peers, delayed and refused to pass the Bill for the <hi>Militia,</hi> the Hous of Commons in their messages declared to them, that how ever they sought their concurrence so earnestly, yet it was more out of respect to their persons, then an appre<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>hension
<pb n="26" facs="tcp:115225:15"/> of desect of autoritie in themselvs, and therefore told them often, that however they desired to have the Lords sharing in the honor of saving the Nation from Ty<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>rannie, yet if they continued to delaie their concurrence, they might not forget where the greatest trust was reposed, but held themselvs obliged to proceed with the <hi>Militia,</hi> and what ever els should bee found necessarie to save the Nation without, and against them; and how frequentlie this was in<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>culcated by M<seg rend="sub">r</seg>
               <hi>Pym,</hi> and how far improved by M<seg rend="sup">r</seg>
               <hi>Hollis</hi> in their Messages delivered to the hous of Lords, in the name of the Hous of <hi>Commons,</hi> is notoriously known; and as this was asserted for an undoubted right in 41 and 42: So was it remarkably put in practice in 43 and 44, about the time that <hi>Bristol</hi> was lost, and <hi>Gloucester</hi> besieged; the Lords delaying and refusing to joyn with the Commons in an Ordinance for the levying and raising a thousand Hors in and about the Citie of <hi>London,</hi> for the defence of the Nation against the common Enemie; the Hous of Commons by an Act of their own, ordered the same to bee levyed and raised, and required the Committee for the <hi>Militia</hi> of <hi>London</hi> to grant Com<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>missions to the Officers, who were autorised to fight and kill, and slay, in as full and ample a manner as others that had autoritie from both Houses, and accordingly did proceed to the reducing of <hi>Newport-Pagnel, Grafton hous,</hi> &amp;c. so that it was judged then that the Supremacie of power lay in the peoples Representatives, in the Commons Hous of Par<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>lament, without and against both King, and Hous of Lords; insomuch, that som of the Lords declared a willingness, in case the rest of their Hous, which were the major part, would not concur in such emergencies with the Commons, that they would quit the Hous of Peers, and com and sit with the Commons. Nor may it bee forgotten how the Citie of <hi>London,</hi> represented by the Lord Maior, Aldermen and Common-Council, gave in their full and seasonable testimo<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>nie to this truth, who observing the Hous of Lords to de<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>lay and denie the continuation of a Committee of both Kingdoms, becaus the <hi>Scots</hi> were conjoyned with the Mem<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>bers
<pb n="27" facs="tcp:115225:15"/> of the Parlament of <hi>England;</hi> as also observing how much in dutie and interest they were obliged above and a<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>gainst either K. or Hous of Lords to stand by, and assist the Hous of Commons, in what by them was judged good for the safetie and well-fare of the Nation, did declare that they held themselvs obliged to observ their Acts and Orders, although the Lords did not joyn with them, and prayed them to go on in endeavoring the Nations preservation, and that what they did alone, should binde and oblige them to a rea<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>dy and cheerfull obedience.</p>
            <p>Notice also may bee taken of other acts of Supremacie of power put forth by the Hous of Commons without the Lords, wherein they owned the right of <hi>Legislative Autoritie</hi> as the emergencie might bee to belong unto them without King and Lords; as for instance, When the <hi>Protestation</hi> was made, the Commons by themselvs without the Lords, made an Order, in the nature of a Law, that whosoëver did not take it, should not sit in Parlament; and before that time a long while they did suspend the ordinarie execution of a standing Law without the concurrence of the Lords; for when a riot was committed at <hi>Lambeth</hi> against my Lord of <hi>Canterburie,</hi> the Commons did fee caus to inhibit the exe<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>cution, which by the cours of the Law was intended to bee set a foot at <hi>Southwark,</hi> which was an Act of no less Auto<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ritie, then the making of a Law. At another emergencie, af<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ter the King had been in the Hous to fetch out the Members, the Hous did adjourn it self in form of a Committee, and sat as <hi>Grocers</hi> Hall with in <hi>London</hi> to provide for common safetie, where they made use of the Supremacie of their power, to manage and swaie the whole cours of publick affairs, as they then saw caus; upon which the King taking his cross resolutions, and deserting the Parlament, al the other changes since have followed; since which time in all cases of imminent danger, they have don things of the like nature, as to settle Orders, to lay taxes, &amp; to order the <hi>Militia</hi> without the Lords when they did linger or refuse to concur; and in such actings as these, the Ministers of the Citie of <hi>London,</hi> and Assemblie,
<pb n="28" facs="tcp:115225:16"/> did concur with others well-affected to the Caus in Peti<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tions, to give the Hous of Commons encouragement to proceed, offering to live and die with them in the prosecu<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tion of their trust for common safetie; not onely without, but (if otherwise it could not bee) against the King and Hous of Lords, although now upon other interests, or rather mistakes of right and duties, the case seems much altered with them. So that to sum up this part of the Discours, the assertion was this, That the Hous of Commons did chal<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>lenge the right of Supreme power to it self by the Law of Nature in their Trust, by the positive Law, and Writs, by which they are called to act and determine matters in Par<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>lament, by cleer Declarations to the King, to the Lords, and to all the world, by their uncontrolable, and justifiable practise, upon all emergent occasions of necessitie (whereof the <hi>Commons</hi> are alone the Judges, as beeing the <hi>Trustees</hi> of the Nation for the safetie thereof) and by the approbation and assistance of the Citie, and of the Ministers themselvs, who formerlie cried up this right in the Representatives, al<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>though now they seem to make a scruple of conscience at it.</p>
            <p>As for the objection made hereunto, that however this might bee the right of the Hous of Commons as the emer<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>gencie required, and it became the people of this Nation out of dutie, and in order to their own interest and good, to stand by them with assistance upon all such occasions, yet they might not remove the Hous of Peers, as now they have don.</p>
            <p>To this the Answer is; That if it bee admitted, that the Supremacie of power resided in the Commons, and ought by them to bee exercised alone as the necessitie might bee; then doubtless a necessitie appearing, they might not onely act without, and against the Hous of Peers, but might sus<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>pend or remove them in order to the peoples good; and as it might have hazarded the peace of the Nation to have ad<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>mitted them a continuance, and yet not have consulted with them, so doubtless it would not have added to their Lord<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ships
<pb n="29" facs="tcp:115225:16"/> honor upon such an account to bee left sit<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ting.</p>
            <p>Nor will it bee impertinent to observe that the Hous of Peers removed themselvs first, not onely by acting that which in a judicial waie made them uncapable of trust or power, by an act of delinquencie of their own, whilest they not onely delayed and denied to declare <hi>Hamilton</hi> and his Armie inva<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ding the Nation to bee enemies to it; but in stead thereof, gave voluntarie assistance to them by so far approving their enterprise, as to order the Printing and publishing of that Declaration, wherein the <hi>Justice</hi> and <hi>Necessitie</hi> of <hi>Hamiltons</hi> comming into <hi>England</hi> was impudently asserted; and this they did, as a Hous, though themselvs had not onely con<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>curr'd in making Ordinances that declared this Treason, but had upon several cases upon appeals resolved and adjud<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ged that such an assistance was undoubted delinquencie. It might bee added, that themselvs dissolved that Hous whilest they all withdrew and left it without adjournment, and this before the Hous of Commons had by Act declared the remo<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>moval of it.</p>
            <p>Concerning the <hi>Second, That this present Assemblie of the Trustees of the Nation is to al intents and purposes an Hous, and hath as just a title to this Legislative and supreme power as ever anie Hous</hi> had; this was made apparent by the present constitution of the Hous, and by the clearing of mistakes which are enter<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tained concerning the breach of priviledge, and the force which is conceived to have been used against the Hous.</p>
            <p>Such as look upon the present constitution of the Hous as defective in Autoritie, becaus they want their full num<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ber, and manie that are Members, are excluded wrongfullie to the breach of priviledges, which the Covenant obliges them to maintain; may bee pleased to call to minde that the number of fortie to all intents and purposes hath alwayes made, and doth make a full Hous when they are orderly met; and they may easily bee informed that more then four times that number sit at present in the Hous, and have taken the Engagement.</p>
            <pb n="30" facs="tcp:115225:17"/>
            <p> Perhaps such as make this Objection, either know not, or remember not, that usually from 1642 till 1645 there sate not above siftie or sixtie in the Hous of Commons, although as great transactions, as ever were in Parlament, was by that number carried on, and that oft times without and against not onely King, but Hous of Lords. Such as in former time by voluntarie absence deserted their trust, or went to <hi>Oxford,</hi> could not make the Autoritie of these that remained, and were faithful to their trust, void; but they were ever coun<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ted to all intents and purposes a Hous, and their Acts valid, although more have been absent then present at the making thereof: for what ever may bee the Caus of the absence of such as appear not; that can derogate nothing from the right of those that are present. It may bee also that these Objectors know not the Nature of Parlament-priviledg, which then properly is broken, when their Honor and Authoritie is upon som account or other slighted or opposed: and of this none but the Parlament or Hous it self can bee judg; none without doors (except when the Hous hath determined and declared the matter) can judg what the priviledges of the Hous are, and what is a breach of them. So that somtimes the arresting of a Members servant hath been judged a breach of priviledg, and at other times not onely the apprehending, but the forcible deteining of a Member of Parlament with<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>out the Privitie, much less direction of Parlament from at<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tending the service of the Hous, is so far from beeing a breech of priviledg, that it becom's an acceptable service to the Parlament and Common-wealth; and so was judged in the Case of Master <hi>Waller;</hi> who, without acquainting the Hous before hand therewith, was laid by the heels; and yet when those that did it, had given the Hous an account of the Caus, and that all the Hous had considered the matter; it thanked those that had deteined him, and condemned <hi>Waller</hi> in ten thousand pounds, and banished him the Land. In like man<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ner the <hi>Hothams,</hi> both Father and Son, men in places of eminent trust; they were deteined without anie fore know<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ledg of the Hous; and Master <gap reason="blank" extent="1 word">
                  <desc> _____ </desc>
               </gap> that served as
<pb n="31" facs="tcp:115225:17"/>
               <hi>Burgess</hi> of <gap reason="blank" extent="1 word">
                  <desc> _____ </desc>
               </gap> in <hi>Sussex,</hi> was used in the same kinde and kept from the Hous. By which precedents it is apparent, that the forcible deteining of Members without doors, as the caus may bee, doth not break the priviledg of the Hous: chiefly when the Hous having taken the matter into consideration, hath de<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>clared the caus of the detention to bee just, and it self fully satisfied concerning the same: as in this Case of the Armies deteining the several Members from the Hous, hath been don; so that the Hous it self hath added their own Or<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>der, that none of them should com in, till they had given satisfaction to the Hous: Whence it may bee thought rea<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>sonable, that others ought not to express their dissatisfa<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ction by calling that a breach of priviledg, which the Hous it self upon a serious debate hath judged otherwise, and which alone is the Judg of its own Priviledges. Nor doth the Number of Members deteined alter the nature of the thing in it self; for what may bee don to one, or two, may bee don to more, if the Caus bee the same. For when all the Bishops, who were wont to bee called a distinct State, were by a tumult forcibly deteined from the Hous of Peers, and they had made a Protestation against the Houses, that becaus they were deteined violently from discharging their trust, that all which should bee don in their absence, should bee null and void; Both Houses then jointly of Lords and Cō<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>mons, did inflict a censure of the highest nature upon them; &amp; deprived them of the right of sitting ever anie more in Parla<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ment, nor was that force by which all the spiritual Lords were kept from coming to the Hous judged a force either upon the Parlament or upon the L. Hous; so that to detein Mēbers few or many, as caus may bee, from coming to the Hous, is no breach of priviledg to those that remain, except they beeing a Hous judg it so, and finde their Honor, Freedom, or Autoritie, prejudged thereby. And if this Argument which the Bishops then used, should now bee allowed; not onely manie Mem<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>bers would condemn themselvs in the past proceedings of Parlament, ere the War broke forth; when som pretended their priviledg was broken by the affront and terrors put up<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>on
<pb n="32" facs="tcp:115225:18"/> them by Prentices and others: But in effect all the foun<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>dation of Government and Autoritie would bee dissolved: for if a forcible detention or anie other accident preventing, som Members (bee the number never so manie) so as that <hi>Quorum</hi> remains, which Constitutes a Hous) shall bee ground enough for persons without doors, to arraign and judg the Autoritie and beeing of Parlament: Will not this lay the Ax to the root thereof, and give occasion to as ma<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>nie as will desire it, to take to themselvs a dispensation from beeing under the Reverence of anie Autoritie or Law? So then although it may bee granted that in these late trans<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>actions som things have not been observed, which in point of formalitie should have been regarded, in case the extra<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ordinarie Emergencies could have suffered so much delay, as the usual legal manner of proceeding did require: yet that beeing granted, can no waie prejudg the right which the pre<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>sent Assembly of Representatiues have to the supreme Auto<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ritie of the Nation, becaus a default in the circumstantial manner of proceeding about necessarie concernments, can<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>not bee made destructive to the foundation of the whole, or main beeing of Government and Autoritie in a State.</p>
            <p>But this Scruple was further pressed by an Objection ta<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ken from the time wherein both Houses declared that the Parlament was under a force; namely, when the Prentices came and assaulted both Houses, for that which then was pretended to bee don, was declared to bee in it self null and void, So now <hi>à Pari,</hi> by virtue of that Declaration, this force which the Armie hath used beeing greater then that which the Prentices did use; the present Acts of the Hous may bee counted null, till the separated Members return again to the possession of their places; chiefly seeing the force by which they were separated doth still continue; but in the former Case, when the Prentices assaulted the Houses, the force did discontinue: So that the Hous then may bee thought to have acted more freely then now it doth, by
<pb n="33" facs="tcp:115225:18"/> how much that force was less, and of less continuance then this; Whereunto a Reply was made to this ef<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>fect.</p>
            <p n="1">1. That it must bee considered, that when the Speaker had by Order of the Houses adjourned the Hous to the next daie, and left the Chair, the doors beeing thrown and kept open, it could not at all properly bee called a Hous; much less had they anie reason to Act as by the Autoritie of the Hous, who were privie to these proceedings; What ever therefore after the adjournment was don, was not to bee counted an Act of the Hous.</p>
            <p n="2">2. That the Hous during the time of the absence of the Speaker, was not free; for although the Prentices were prohibited to return upon pain of death; yet divers of the Members, who then sate in the Hous, did represent unto the Hous, that they did not sit in safetie, but were without pro<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tection; so that they were at the mercie of anie that would have assaulted them against the prohibition; for they had no safegard to trust to, nor anie power which they could command for their securitie: but did lie open to the at<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>tempts of those whom they could not trust, but still feared; nor did the Hous, whereof Master <hi>Pelham</hi> was the Speaker, ever vote it self to bee free from fear, or safe without danger of further force. Therefore also som of these that went not awaie to the Armie, but staied, did enter afterward the Engagement which the Members that went to the Armie made with it, for their securitie: and when the Speaker re<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>turned with the other Members under the protection of the Armie, they voted themselvs a free Hous, and not till then, which implied that they understood themselvs to have been under a force all the time before.</p>
            <p n="3">3. That the force used by Prentices, and the force which the Armie used, against som of the Members, were wholly of a different Nature; which will appear by the Comparison of the one with the other. The Prentices did force the Hous it self within doors but the Armie did use force not upon
<pb n="34" facs="tcp:115225:19"/> the Hous it self but onely upon a considerable number of the Members, and without doors. The Prentices intended to set upon the Hous in its Parlamentarie and essential actings; for they came within the Hous, they stood at the Bar with their hats upon their heads, they caused the Question to bee put as they would have it; and forced them to Vote what they would have Voted; and kept them in the Hous after they had adjourned, and would not let them go home, but threatned to starv them there, except they Voted what they would have them to Vote: all which made their Votes <hi>ipso facto</hi> void and null; by reason of the nature of the force, al<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>though the Hous had not been formerly adjourned; which upon another account made also their Votes wholy null. But the force used by the Armie was onely intended against som particular men, whom they discovered to bee fals unto their trust, and to endeavor to betraie the Caus, (for the defence of which the Armie was commissioned) into the late Kings hands: they intended to offer no disturbance to any of the rest of the Members, or to molest anie actings of the Hous, but they proceeded as freelie as ever they did in their lives: and still, since this guard hath been about them, to preserv them from outward assaults of enemies, they have never been molested within doors, no more then when the guard of Citizens was about them to preserv them from the danger which the Kings evil Counsel intended against them.</p>
            <p n="4">4. That although the Hous, wherein Master <hi>Pelham</hi> was in the Chair, sate for a few daies free, without anie visible appearance of force; yet all the Actings of that Hous bee<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ing grounded upon Votes gotten by meer force, after the adjournment of the Hous, and tending to rais a war destru<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ctive to the Common-wealth, were declared by the Hous when it was restored to its integritie to bee <hi>ipso facto</hi> null, becaus the verie foundation of their frame and standing, up<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>on which they did Act, was a nullitie and unparlamentarie: whereunto this is further to bee added, that although for a
<pb n="35" facs="tcp:115225:19"/> time the Armie did detein the Members which were not counted faithful to their trust, yet so manie of them as were willing to cleer themselvs from the caus of suspicion, and give the Hous satisfaction of their uprightness to the Caus, were invited to return; so that they cannot bee said to bee excluded otherwise, then by themselvs discontinuing to act in their places, and forsaking their trust.</p>
            <p>Besides all this, those that made this objection were desi<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>red to remember, who they were that formerly contested against the Declaration which is now alledged as an argu<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ment to make the actings of the present Hous void; and if they have forgot their Reasons, yet they may call to minde the intent of their Votes, and what careful provision was made, that nothing of that kinde should bee a president for the future: and they that urge this matter now, must take heed of precipitating by passing a judgment of this nature upon anie particular Act, till the Parlament it self judg it so, lest whilest they too much hold forth such a principle to bring in another Government, they do unadvisedly, and against their own good meaning strengthen the hands of som others, who seek to undermine and overthrow both this and that form of Government; and in stead thereof either drop the Nation into a most certain and perfect state of slaverie upon the account of conquest, or drown the Nation in Anarchie and confusion. It is therefore apparent that all objections of this nature against the present esta<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>blished Government, do savor more of a spirit that contend's for victorie, then for Truth and common safetie.</p>
            <p>The objection taken from the Covenant by which som did think themselvs obliged to another Government, was answered thus, That if they engaged with the Parlament against the late King upon Parlament-principles, which in Covenant are expressed; the same principles which car<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ried them hitherto on their waie, if they will be faithful to them, will carrie them through this passage of it also; for if
<pb n="36" facs="tcp:115225:20"/> they could not apprehend that both Houses were above the King in point of trust and power, and that as the case might bee, the greatest trust and power did reside in the Hous of Commons; it is much to bee wondred that ever they went so far as hitherto they have don in the Parlament's caus, and not to bee wondred that now they fall back; but if they did apprehend these principles as truths, and consistent with the meaning of the Covenant, which certainly the first contri<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>vers of the Covenant so understood; it is to bee wondered what should now make them fall back upon pretence of the Covenant; for doubtless they who are satisfied with the Su<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>premacie of power which the Commons have all along owned and acted, need nothing further to help their per<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>swasion to give obedience to that Authoritie in everie thing which is not sinful.</p>
            <p>The Covenant is so far from making void the Allegiance due to the present Government, as that it admit's a case to bee, and the Supremest power of the Nation have judged and declared that now, that case is, that by virtue of the Covenant the people of this Nation are obliged to assist and promove the present establisht Government; for as much as in the judgment of Parlament it appear's best for the recove<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>rie and preservation of this Nations just liberties, and conse<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>quentlie of the true Religion also, unto which primarie ends all other clauses in the Covenant are but subordinate, at least, as the case now stand's the receding from this Govern<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ment, hazard's the loss of the whole; and surelie no man that is serious, can imagine it reasonable that the Parla<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ment to trie conclusions should make so great an adven<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ture.</p>
            <p>And if neither the removal of the late King, nor the Act of the present Government that remove's Kingship, can dissolv the bond that is pretended to remain; it may bee askt to what individual it doe's oblige? who the late suc<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>cessors are? as to that which concern's Autoritie, it's visibly the present Parlament; and if it were possible for an other
<pb n="37" facs="tcp:115225:20"/> King to bee, yet by Act of Parlament, none must bee owned as such, but hee whom the Parlament shall declare to bee King.</p>
            <p>But it is verie probable, that these pretences are taken up by som, who beeing satisfied that the present Government is likelie to prevent and disappoint the carrying on of a diffe<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>rent interest, finde it safest (especially if they should declare themselvs willing to sit quiet, and bee faithful unto it) ra<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ther to frame objections against the unlawfulness then a<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>gainst the disadvantages of it. So that the sum of all result's to this, that however they can bee content to receiv the be<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>nefit in common with the whole Nation, and som peculiar advantages over and above, and this not onely for that there is a Government continued, but more immediately from this that is now established, yet that themselvs may bee free, and that they may preserv others, to bee for the introducing and receiving a form of Government different from this wherein their own private interest may bee more advanced.</p>
            <p>And this is the more likelie to bee their aim, under this pretence of conscience towards the Covenant, becaus con<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>trarie to moral equitie and ingenuitie, they desire to bee excused from owning the present Magistracie, from which they yet desire protection; and becaus contrarie to the clear rule of conscience in Christianitie they fall under a direct disobedience to all those Scriptures, specially in the New Testament, which require obedience to those that are in Autoritie; which Scriptures are by the Holie Ghost dictated in such a juncture of time, and directed to such a generation of men, as had the same grounds which these pretend to have, and abundantlie more, to have invited the people to a disowning of their Rulers. For whether you consult our Savior, or his Apostles in relation to this subject, yee will finde that the Governors were Heathens, their government Tyrannical, and as they were usurpers of it, so had usur<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ped it, from that verie people on whom they called for obe<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>dience:
<pb n="38" facs="tcp:115225:21"/> and our Savior himself begin's the president, and give's them voluntarie assistance in tribute, not lest otherwise they take offence, but <hi>lest wee give them offence,</hi> saith our blessed Savior; and the Apostles held forth the same copie backt with pertinent arguments to this effect. This Heathen Governor, though hee hath usurped his power; yet as his power is of God, so <hi>hee is Gods Minister for good to thee,</hi> under whom thou mayest lead a holie life in all godliness and honestie; for <hi>this caus</hi> therefore, and <hi>for conscience sake,</hi> as your dutie, not for fear of wrath; pay yee tribute, custom, and honor, and see yee bee behinde in nothing that is required of you, which in its own nature is not unlawful. Thus <hi>Paul</hi> to the <hi>Romans</hi> chap. 13. arguing the equitie of obedience to Magistrates, though Pagans and Usurpers, upon the same consideration as hee conclude's that Ministers should have maintenance, becaus <hi>hee is Gods Minister for good to thee,</hi> saith the Apostle; and it is observable that in those primitive times there was a root of bitterness in the mindes of subjects unto their Superiors like unto that which now appear's in som; for som servants professing Christianitie did entertain thoughts of irregular freedom against their Masters upon the account of their irreligiousness or frowardness; and som that pretended to be teachers of others were not afraid to speak evil of Dignities, and despise Dominions, 2 <hi>Pet.</hi> 2. and <hi>Jud.</hi> against whose unconscionable practices the Apostles did give rules of submission, and universal obedience in things just and lawful to all souls towards their Gover<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>nors.</p>
            <p>Som other Discourses to this same and the like purposes were alledged by those that entertained the <hi>Conference</hi> which cannot all bee called to minde, and need not to bee severally related: yet one thing amongst others deserve's to bee re<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>membred, concerning the argument used to prove that the Hous of Commons could not bee esteemed to have the right of Supreme and Legislative power, becaus it had not the power to give an oath, which was answered by one, who
<pb n="39" facs="tcp:115225:21"/> vouched Mr. <hi>Seldens</hi> speech in the Hous in answer to that objection to this effect. That the power of giving an oath, is useful onely in order to judg of particular matters, that it is a subordinate and inferior act of power, and not fit to bee ordinarily attended by the Supreme it self, which put's forth particular acts of judicature and power by Deputies who are autorized to examin matters upon oath: whereso<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ever then the Legislative and Supreme power doth in anie measure reside, it comprehend's in it all subordinate power by waie of eminencie, and may, as the emergencie may bee, put forth all the particular acts thereof, whether by way of Judi<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>cature, or otherwise, as they shall see caus; but the proper work of the Supreme Autoritie is to impower by Laws, and setled Orders, others to see those Laws kept, and justice ac<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>cordingly executed against the transgressors thereof; to which effect particular Judicatures and the autoritie of giving oaths is subordinate.</p>
            <p>So then it is not becaus they want right, but becaus it is below them to make use of it; for which Caus the Judica<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>ture of particular Causes was primarily referred to the Lords Hous, as to the last appeal; the Representatives of the Nation in the Hous of Commons being primarily intent to settle and chuse the Laws by which all Judges were to judg all Cases, and to attend the main trust of the safetie of the Nation, in all other Emergencies whatsoever, which is pro<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>perly the Supreme work, and peculiar to the representatives of the People in Parlament assembled, above all others in the Nation of what degree and qualitie soever they may bee.</p>
            <p>At the conclusion of the Conference, the Gentlemen who had endeavored to satisfie the doubts of the <hi>scrupled Partie,</hi> declared that they had don it in a private waie, upon the grounds of <hi>Christian Charitie,</hi> to give satisfaction to them, as to their Brethren, lest they might entertain hard and of<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>fensive thoughts against them, as if they did not walk in the light, and by conscionable grounds in their present Actings
<pb n="40" facs="tcp:115225:22"/> with the Parlament, which now they had laid open to pre<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>vent future, and rectifie former mistakes; which end if they had attained, they said they had caus to rejoice thereat: but if not, that yet they had uprightly endeavored it, and that they had heard nothing from the other side which did shake the grounds of their resolution still to proceed. And having thus don their dutie towards them, they did <hi>acquiesce</hi> there<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>in: but if the Gentlemen of the other side would recipro<g ref="char:EOLhyphen"/>cally favor them with the like account of the grounds of their present proceedings, it would bee verie acceptable, if they shew how they could warrant their Conscience; either as Christians would by the Law of God, or as good Subjects and Common-wealths men by the Law of the Land, in refusing to obey in things <hi>per se,</hi> good and lawful, the powers that are in Actual possession of the Supremacie; although it were (which of these Powers it cannot bee) supposed, that they are vnlawful: And to discours of this Subject, how they could make this appear warrantable, an offer was made to give them another meeting at a time which should bee found expedient. But this motion was not entertained, and so the further conferences of this matter ceased.</p>
         </div>
         <trailer>FINIS.
<pb facs="tcp:115225:22"/>
         </trailer>
      </body>
   </text>
</TEI>