SECT. I. Of the Authour, and Title page of the Quere; and Determination, upon it.

OF the Authour I have not much to say, save that when he was sent for examination to the Committee of Divines, I found him well qualified for parts, and gifts, to be imployed in the Ministery; and as he was entertained by us with beseeming civility and courtesie, so did he carry himselfe to­wards us with an ingenuous modesty; and we met, and parted with mutuall accep­tation: After that, he was pleased to owne me as his Friend, and to honour me as his Censor, with a request to peruse some papers of his which he intended to publish; yet to this day I never saw them, unlesse they were graduates from his pen to the presse; and so I might reade them, and not know them to be the same: whether he changed his mind concerning his owne paines, or my perusall, [Page 2]or wanted a convenient opportunity to bring, or send them unto me, I cannot resolve, nor will I conjecture; but I will take his in­vitation of me to play the Critick with him, for some more autho­rity to examine his divulged dictates, then others have, who have none other interest in them then that of an ordinary Reader.

Vpon this intercourse betwixt us, having heard adverse opinions, and reports of his impression, in the present difference of discipline, I thought I had acquaintance enough with him, to put a Question to him, Whether he were an Independent or no? (a Title by some of our dissenting brethren That proud and insolent title of Inde­pendencie was affixed unto us, as our claime, the very sound of which con­veighes to all mens appre­hensions the challenge of an exempti­on from all subjection and dependence; or rather a Trum­pet of defiance against what­soever power, spirituall or ci­vill; which we do abhor and detest. Apolog. Narrat. p. 21. abhorred, by others Mr. Whites Book which he calls Truth glo­riously appear­ing, &c. in the Title page and fol. 2. pag. 1. of the Epistle Dedicatory, and fol. 2. p. 1. of the Epistle to the Reader. owned, and ho­noured) he told me, he was not, but that he had a latitude of charity for them of that way; and so have I also.

Since this answer, I had some glympse of more inclination in him to that side, then he acknowledged before, by his Dawnings of light, which have lately shone forth to a full discovery of his mind, in his booke which he calleth The opening of Master Prins Vindi­cation; wherein he hath laid himselfe so open to the view of them that reade it, that none of them can doubt but he is an Independent at least, and at best not well affected to the Discipline so much desired, (as in the first page of his New Quere he hath phrased it) for in his Epistle Dedicatory, to the worthily much honoured Ma­jor Generall Skippon, he makes the Controversie of these times to be but this, that some would walke more close with Christ, some can be content like Peter to walke at more distance, and to follow him afarre off, and to stand warming themselves with the multitude in the Com­mon-hall; and let the world judge betwixt us, which is of best report. Who he meanes by such as walk close with Christ, and who by those that walke at more distance, we may gather by his answer to the Vindication, Pag. 24. Of the opening. where he saith, That our Parishes are not constituted, nor yet the government, according to the Gospell order; which he re­ferres, for their originall, (by way of reproach) to Dionysius Bi­shop of Rome, Anno 276. and in England to Honorius Bishop of Canterbury, while he endevours to prove the particular a. p. 33. ad pag. 37. gather­ings, and separations of Congregationall meetings to be a fruit of the spiritual antipathy betwixt grace & nature, flesh & spirit, and that their pure and unmixt communion is the ordinance of Christ; of which (after he hath laid a charge upō the Presbyterial Churches) he saith, As I know not any such things among them, so I will make none Apo­logie [Page 3]for them, because that would bring them within the compasse of some thing like a crime, and I know nothing but well by them: By which comparative censure he bewrayeth himselfe to be partiall to one side, and prejudiciall to the other; and to that I professe my selfe a Servant, whereto he sheweth himselfe to be no friend; yet in defence thereof, I will not entertaine him as an enemie; for my Genius hath alwayes been very averse from jarres, and it is the lesse disposed to quarrel with him, because I see he dealeth not so harsh­ly with M ^r. Prin, as most of those polemicall Penmen have done, who have written against him; and to give him his due, in all that I have seene set forth in his name, I find him rather opiniative, than passionate, and more luxuriant in new notions of his braine, then ex­orbitant in the passions, or perturbations of his spirit.

I premise thus much, that you may not mistake my mind in my contestation with him in this cause, as if I tooke him for an enemie, because he telleth what he taketh to be a truth; for whatsoever dif­ferent apprehensions we have in our heads, I wish wee may have nothing in our hearts, which may tend to effect, or foment any alie­nation of affection betwixt us. For it is my desire, and shall be al­wayes a part of my care, that while I seek after a controverted truth, I may not turne aside from a certaine duty; which is, in meeknesse to deale with a brother that is contrary minded; so farre as may not prove to the prejudice of what in conscience I am bound to under­take, and to manage also to the best advantage. This for the Author and for the Title page besides (for the Authors Name is a part of it) it is as followeth.

SECT. II. Of the Title Page.

A New Quere at this time seasonably to be considered, as we ten­der the advancement of Truth and Peace.

He knew very well how the Athenian humour of listening after news prevaileth with our people of all sorts; and therefore being to fish in troubled waters, he puts upon his hook that bait, at which it was like many would be nibling.

Next he saith, It is at this time seasonably to be considered, as we tender the advancement of Truth and Peace. He commends his [Page 4] New Query to acceptance in two respects:

• 1. As seasonable.
• 2. As much importing the advancement of Truth and Peace.

For the first; he saith it is at this time seasonably to be considered. So it is, now it is published; but it was very unseasonably offered: and I marvell that he, who hath written a whole booke of policy, should be so unpoliticke as to thinke it seasonable, to set forth such a Quere, and so to resolve it; such it tends to retard the establish­ment of Government, whereto the Parliament is so much enga­ged, not onely for the thing it selfe, but for a timely proposition, and imposition of it by their civill sanction.

For the first, that they intend to set up a Church government, we have it, 1. From their expresse profession, December 15. 1641. We doe here declare, that it is farre from our purpose or desire to let loose the golden reines of Discipline, and Government in the Church, to leave private persons, or particular Congregations to take up what forme of service they please; for we hold it requisite, that there should be throughout the whole Realme a conformitie in that order, which the Lawes enioyne according to the word of God. So in the first Re­monstrance of the Honourable House of Commons. pag. 25.

2. from the first Article of the solemne League and Co­venant, published by Authoritie of Parliament, September 21. 1643. Wherein they, and all others that take it, doe covenant to endea­vour the reformation of Religion in the Kingdomes of England and Ireland, in Doctrine, Worship, Discipline, and Government, ac­cording to the word of God, and the example of the best reformed Churches.

3. this Covenant was ordered againe by the Honorable House of Commons, Januarie 29. 1644. to be publiquely read every Fast day, and to be set up in every Congregation in a faire Table, where every one may read it; and to this are set the names of Master Speaker, and 243. more of the Honourable House of Commons.

And for the second, that they meane to expedite the settling of Government with all convenient speed, we have good cause to conceive.

1. Because they have bestowed already very many dayes in consultation about it.

[Page 5]2. They insist in the same consultations still.

3. They (according to the eminence of their wisdome) appre­hend many and great evils, that grow both in number, and power, by Doctrines of Libertinisme, which necessarily require the re­straint of a reformed Church Government.

4. They have already set it up.

1. In their Ordinance of Ordination, set forth the last yeare.

2. In an Ordinance for making London a Province this last yeare, dividing it into severall Classes, and for choosing a Committee for tryall of Elders to be chosen, and Rules to be observed for orderly proceeding in the same; and this before this Quere came forth.

3. Since that, they have advanced further, by a Vote and Order for choosing Elders forthwith in particular Congregations.

4. And last of all, they have published an Ordinance, with rules and directions for suspension from the Sacrament, in cases of Igno­rance and Scandall.

Yet they cannot make that speed with the Government, which by most is desired, and very much desired by themselves (as we of the Assembly can witnesse, who have often beene sent to by that Honourable Senate to quicken our worke, and to ripen our debates to a full resolution) because as with us the libertie of speaking (wherein every one is free to propose, and prosecute any doubt) prolonged the Government in our hands; so the like libertie in the Honourable Houses (or rather our libertie is like theirs, it being the Prototypon) lengthens the debates, and delayes the Votes of that most Honourable Senate; and so much the more, because they are more in number then we in our Synod; and because their determinations are finall, as ours are not.

And though that which is published doe not yet reach home to our full satisfaction, we hope it is in the way towards further per­fection; which cannot reasonably be expected in the first Essayes of frames, and formes of Government; for we may say of Jeru­salem as well as of Rome, that it was not built in a day, though in time it became the perfection of beautie, the ioy of the whole earth, Lam. 2.15. Such we pray God that fabrick may prove, which is under the hands of our Honourable and holy Nehemiahs; and Lord [Page 6]polish, finish, and establish the worke in their hands, yea the worke of their hands establish thou it, Psal. 90.17.

The other particular he propounds to make his Quere more plausible, is the reference it hath to two precious things, viz. Truth and Peace; both which are upheld by Government, Church-Go­vernment; and without it, for truth we have abundance of errours, and heresies broached among us, which divide men into manifold Sects and Factions; and where they are multiplied, there can be no peace, without a treacherous toleration, which will resolve at last into an Anarchy and confusion.

Having premised this, he putteth his Quere thus.

First, he putteth the case according to the Principles of Religion, and State: which if he had well considered, he might have thought the Parliament for the one, and the Assembly of Divines for the other, (competently qualified, each in their profession, for resolu­tion of such a doubt, especially since it is a chiefe part of the pub­lique worke of them both, to drive it to its issue) might have pre­vented such a Quere as this, from a private Divine.

Secondly, he suggests a suspition, as if the Parliament were dri­ving on the Discipline and Government of the Church in Jehu's Chariot, with furious haste, whereas both Parliament, and Assem­bly have much adoe, to ward off imputations of procrastination, and delay; for debating so long, and determining so little, whereof we have rendred the reasons before.

Thirdly, he presents it as a gravamen, or of some dangerous con­sequence, that the power should be put in the hands of the Mini­sters, whereas Ministers put in for no more power as their due, either from the Magistrate, or over the people, then is consonant to the Scripture, and the principles of prudence; and if lesse then that be allowed them, since it is from God, and for God, not for themselves, God rather then they will be unworthily dealt with­all; and if it be commonly desired, (as he saith) it is the lesse liable to his, or any mans exception.

[Page 7]Hereto having put his name, (which to me is of a savoury relish, by what I have tasted of his other Writings) he closeth up his Title page with the Testimonie of the Apostle, 2 Cor. 10.8. in these words, Our authoritie (which the Lord hath given us for instru­ction, not for destruction); the ordinary reading or rendring of the originall word according to the literall sense, is edification; [...]. but he refused that, and tooke the word instruction, which is metaphori­call; either because he thought the Paranomasie more pleasant to the Reader, or lesse profitable for the Ministers claime to Church-Government; for edification importeth more power then instru­ction doth; and he thought there would have beene too strong an intimation of Authority in the first substantive of his quotation if it had not beene allayed with a weaker word then the Gramma­ticall construction bringeth with it: and for the other word de­struction, if it be taken in a symbolicall sense to his resolution of the Quere, it implieth two things, which are of strong prejudice against the Government of the Church:

1. That it is a destructive thing,

2. That being such, it should neither be set up by the Magistrate, nor exercised by the Minister, nor received by the people: whereas indeed the severest act of discipline is salutary, and preservative to the better part of man; and though it be destructive to the worse, it is not to be rejected, but co nomine to be admitted; both these we make good by the authoritie of the same Apostle he citeth, though not in the same Epistle, deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Iesus, 1 Cor. 5.5.

This for the Title Page of this New Quere.

SECT. III. The matter and scope of the Quere, and resolution upon it.

NOw for the Discourse it selfe, the drift whereof is to prove the Negative; viz. That it is not fit, according to the Prin­ciples of Religion and State, te settle any Church Government over the Kingdome, &c.

For this he pleads in eleven Paragraphs, which stand for so many [Page 8]reasons for support of his Opinion; but they are set out rather with a Rhetoricall breadth, then a Logicall strength; and he seekes to cover the truth with a broad hand, which he cannot crush with his clutcht fist.

I will endevour to present them rather according to the natu­rall vigour (be it more or lesse) that is in them, then according to the artificiall colour he hath put upon them; about which the matter of greatest difficultie is to marshall them in a right method, which must be mine, though the reasons be his, and yet it shall be so farre his, as may consist with good sense, and the order of proceeding: and therefore I will divide them into the two heads, to which his Title page directeth me:

Into reasons

• 1. Of Religion, and they are taken
  • 1. From faith.
  • 2. From Con­science.
    • 1. Positively, misguided to a popish compliance.
    • 2. Negatively, not working any good upon the conscience.
  • 3. From Christian examples
    • 1. In generall, of the New Testament.
    • 2. In parti­cular, from the example
      • 1 Of Christ his
        • 1. Description.
        • 2. Practice.
      • 2. Of his Apostles.
• 2. Of Policy, taken from
  • 1. Rules or con­siderations of prudence, which are three.
    • 1. The more time for trying of spirits, and proving of all things, there is the lesse danger to that State of erring in things received and authorised, &c.
    • 2. There is no Religion established by State but there is some proportion in the two powers, &c.
    • 3. Our parties or dissenting brethren being now together and clasped by interest a­gainst the common enemic, this founda­tion of common unitie is such, as may draw in both affections and judgements, if not too suddenly determined, &c.
  • 2. Examples of practice
    • 1. Negatively.
    • 2. Positively.

[Page 9]The first reason, (taken from the rules of faith) because it is the clearest and cometh neerest to his negative conclusion, though it stand too farre off either to build, or uphold it. I will propound his owne words, The rules laid downe in the word for practicall obedi­ence are § 1. p. 3. these in part, Let every one be fully perswaded in his owne mind, Rom. 14.5. and, whatsoever is not of faith is sinne, vers. 23.

Now the setling of any government upon a people who are yet ge­nerally untaught in the nature and grounds of it, is to put upon them the practice of that wherein it is impossible they can be perswaded in their minde, and so either on a necessity of sinne, or misery.

Answ. If M ^r. S. had minded, as he ought, what he was to prove, he should have planted his reason directly against the enioyn­ing, or imposing of a Government, rather then against obedience to it; and so the Scriptures alleadged should have beene made remoraes to the erecting of a government, thus:

Those that set up a government whereof they are not fully per­swaded im their mind, and which they cannot doe in faith, doe sinne. But they that now set up a Church government, with power com­monly desired in the hands of Ministers, doe set up a government whereof they are not fully perswaded in their minds; Therefore in so doing they sinne.

The maior proposition hath warrant from the forecited places; but the minor is that wherein the weight or weaknesse of the Ar­gument doth consist; and that cannot be proved, nor can, without breach of charitie, be supposed of such as have taken so long time, made use of so many learned and faithfull Counsellours (discussing and resolving all points of difficultie by the Scripture) to be sound­ly grounded both in conscience, and prudence, for what they set forth, touching the government of the Church.

Secondly, if we take this reason to stand immediately against o­bedience, and consequently against commands or impositions, it will be somewhat more formall, but every whit as feeble, thus:

That whereof every one (under governement) cannot be perswa­ded in his own mind, and whereto he cannot yeeld [...] obedience of faith, may not be set up or setled in the Church.

But of the government of the Church, with the power com­monly desired, every one under government cannot be fully per­swaded [Page 10]in his mind, nor submit to it of faith; And therefore it may not be set up, or cannot at all be set up without sinne.

Here the Minor proposition granted, the Maior must be de­nied: For it is flatly repugnant to religion and reason, and makes as much against the former Protestations of the Parliament, and the late Covenant of three Kingdomes; yea against all assurances of either kind, as against the Government in question; for there will be alwayes some that will be scrupled with any thing that is pub­liquely established.

Obiect. But saith he, § 1. p. 3. The people are generally unt aught in the nature, and grounds of this Church Government; and therefore to put upon them the practice of that whereof it is impossible they can be fully perswaded in their minds, is to put them upon a necessitie either of sinne or of misery; To which,

The Answer is so easie and ready, that it may be some matter of marvaile an ingenious man (as M ^r. Saltmarsh is) should make such an Objection; for

1. The Church Government desired, is no other then (for the chiefe parts of it) hath good warrant from the word of God.

2. For what is of lesse moment, if it be not directly deduced out of Scripture, it is not repugnant to the Scripture, but agreeable to grounds of prudence, and the example of the best reformed Churches.

3. For the practice of Government, it belongeth not to the peoples part (as he puts the case), to be active in it; but to the Mi­nisters, and Elders, and they are not to enter upon the exercise of their authoritie before they be sufficiently informed in it: and thence it is that (though there be an Order given for it): they that should officiate in it make a pause, and deliberate upon it, before they set upon the practise of it.

4. For the people, so farre as concerneth their compliance or cor­respondence with the government, they are to be instructed in it before they yeeld submission to it; for that purpose the Govern­ment is proposed by parts, and by degrees, so as it may be best ap­prehended by all; and the Preachers appointed to teach both the offices of the Gevernours, and the duties of the people, so as each may performe his part without scruple, or doubting.

[Page 11]5. If any after this information out of weaknesse remaine unsa­tisfied, be is not (as this Writer resolveth) put upon such a dange­rous Dilemma, as either to make choyce of sin by obeying, or of misery by refusall to obey; for such as (not out of wilfulnesse, or faction, but out of tendernesse of conscience) cannot comply with the rule, are not presently to be ruled with the rod, 1 Cor. 4.21. but with meeknesse to be instructed though they be contrary minded, 2 Ti [...]i. 2.25. and with so much longsuffering and patience to be forborne, as may not be injurious to the truth of God, and prejudiciall to the peace of the Church.

6. Whereas he would have the generall ignorance of the people touching government a roason to suspend the setting of it up, it may rather be pleaded for expedition in the worke; for if it be not set up, the people cannot know it practically; and while it is unknowne unto them, it is impudently slandered by some, and impotently yeelded by many others, to be injurious and tyrannicall; whereas if it had beene experimentally knowne as it is, it would have beene before now both honourable, and amiable in the eies of them, who are not prepossessed with prejudice against it.

7. For those two Texts which he alleadgeth for deferring the Government (and if there be any weight in them as to that pur­pose, they make against it not for a time onely but for ever) I com­mend to his consideration, and wish he would preach and presse to his people when the government is set up, (as I hope it shortly will be) or rather before-hand to prepare them for it, such Scriptures as these; We beseech you brethren to know them which labor among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you: and to esteeme them very highly in lo [...]e, for their works sake, 1 Thes. 5.12, 13. Let the Elders that rule well be accounted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine, 1 Tim. 5.17. Remember. them which have the rule over you, who have spoken to you the word of God, Heb. 13.7. & vers. 17. Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit your selves, for they watch for your soules, as they that must give account, that they may doe it with i [...]y, and not with griefe.

Thus much for his first Paragraph, which may deserve the first place, and a fuller answer then any of the rest, because it brings more appearance of proofe, both by Scripture and reason, then any of the other.

SECT. IIII. Reasons against the present setling of Government taken from Conscience answered.

THe next reason for adjourning or putting off the Government to a further time, is taken from Conscience; and that in two respects.

1. In that the conscience hereby, that is, by a speedy setting up of government, is mis-guided to a compliance with a § 2. p. 3. Principle of Popery against the Nationall Covenant.

Answ. It is very strange that any one, who remembreth the Nationall Covenant (as he taketh upon him to doe that citeth it) wherein we are bound sincerely, really, and constantly to endevour the reformation of Religion in the Kingdomes of England and Ireland in Discipline and Government, in the first Article of it, should from the same Covenant plead for delay in the establishment thereof; and yet more strange, that he should doe it under the title of Po­pery, which in the next Article of the Covenant is disavowed; which (if his reasoning were right) were such a contradiction, as would argue the composers and penners of the Covenant to be men of most pitifull simplicitie.

But wherein appeareth this Popery? Why, in § 2. p. 3. bringing the people under a Popish implicit obedience; and he confirmes it by expe­rience: § 2. ibid. We know it by e [...]eperience (saith he) that the people have beene ever devoted to any thing that the State sets up, all the disputes or conscience of the common people ending in this, Whether it be esta­blished by Law, or no; and going usually no higher, or further then a Statute, or Act of State for their Religion. To which I answer.

1. For that he saith of implicit Popish obedience, it is very im­pertinently applied to the Discipline, or Government in question; since (as I have shewed in what I said to his first reason) it is so or­dered already that therein instruction must preced, or goe before observation; nor shall any one be bound to act in that particular any further then according to his light.

2. For his observation upon experience, it maketh as much a­gainst matter of Doctrine as mattes of Discipline; and more a­gainst [Page 13]the Authority of the Parliament then the authority of Ministers; since They, not Ministers, make Statutes, and establish Lawes; and if the people be so apt to idolize a Statute, or an Act of State, (but I beleeve they more often offend in defect then in exeesse of respect unto them) it will be the duty of such as have the Legisla­tive power (wherein he that finds the fault is fittest to doe the office of an Admonitor unto them) to suspend their authoritie for matter of Religion, and to ordaine and decree nothing of that sub­ject to be received or observed.

2. A second reason, which hath reference to Conscience, he brings in upon experience thus: §. 5. p. 4. We have found by experience that the speedy setling of Government upon a Nation, hath made reforma­tion take little root, save in the outward man, or formall obedience; because they received not reformation in the power of the word; but of the State, which went not so deepe into the conscience but they could part with it at any time upon a Law: And he concludes his observa­tion with a patheticall interrogation: O then why doe not dayes speake, and multitude of yeares teach knowledge?

To this may be replyed:

1. That if he meane it in respect of our owne Kingdome (and that experience is most like to come within his cognizance) the fault was not in the over-speedy setling of a Government, but in the choyce of a wrong Government: viz. that of Prelacy, which by an Act and Ordinance of Parliament, and by the Nationall Co­venant is cryed downe.

2. If when Discipline is established, Doctrine were abolished, or for a time suspended and silenced, there were some force in this exception of M ^r. Saltmarsh; but Doctrine goeth on where Disci­pline cometh in; as a Schoole master is at the same time in Office both a teacher, and a corrector of his schollers; and so the power of the word may go deep into the conscience, and the Discipline or Government is rather an helpe, then an hindrance to that opera­tion: for,

3. The Discipline or Government is as an hedge or wall about the Doctrine of Religion; a goad or spurre to the meanes of grace, to bring men under the power of the Words operation; a curbe to licentious courses; all which conduce much to the keeping of the conscience voyd of offence toward God and man: and though with [Page 14]many the reformation reach no further then the outward man, yet that is not to be imputed to the Discipline which brings them to the Word, but to their owne corruptions, and Satans sleights, and deceits which hinder the Words kindly and saving worke upon them.

4. Where the Discipline hath beene rightly chosen, and timely established, God hath blessed it with better fruits; as in the King­dome of Scotland; whence it is that that Church hath had the fa­vour and honour from God, to be free both from heresie and schisme, where with we of this Kingdome and State have abounded so much the more, as the Discipline bath beene the more delayed; which agreoth to M ^r. Saltmarsh his politick observation in these words: M. Saltmarsh his practise of policy, pol. 81. p. 69. When places of authoritie be likely to be vacant (much more when authoritie it selfe is at a nonplus) be ready in proiect with a successour; long interregnums or interstices, (i.) intermissions in government, are the Winter and ill season of a State, where the nights are long, and the dayes short.

5. And lastly, for his Epiphonema with the words of Elihu forementioned which are taken out of Iob 32. vers. 6, 7. Why doe not dayes speake, and multitude of yeares teach knowledge? they make nothing for his purpose; for the meaning of them is not that Government, or Discipline, or any other usefull thing should not be with all convenient speed established, but that the ancient, with whom is wisdome, Iob 12.12. the gray headed and very aged men, Chap. 15.10. who have had the experience of many dayes, and yeares, should be heard and heeded in matter of advice, and con­sultation, before such green-headed Counsellours as Rehoboam followed to his ruine, 1 King. 12. vers. 13, 14.

SECT. V. The Argument against the speedy setling of Church Go­vernment taken from example of the New Testa­ment in generall answered.

A § 3. p. 3, 4. Third head of exceptions against the speedy (so he calls it Paragraph 5. though the word hastily please him better in the body of the Quere) setting up of Government is taken from Christian examples.

[Page 15]Contrary to

• 1. The New Testament in generall
• 2. In particular to
  • 1. The example of Christ, and that two wayes, in respect
    • 1. Of his description, §. 6. p. 4.
    • 2. Of his practise, §. 3. p. 3, 4.
  • 2. The example of the most ancient Christi­ans, and excellent Ministers of Christ.
    • 1. As of John Baptist; Christs forerunner.
    • 2. The Apostles his followers.

1. For the generall; § 4. p. 4. We never read in the New Testament of a Go­vernment setled upon any, that were not brought first under Gospel obedience by the power of the Word and Spirit, which thousands of Congregations in this Kingdome are not; for as in materiall build­ings, stone and timber are not to be clapt together without hewing and squaring, so not in the spirituall; and whereas in the Temple there should be neither axe nor hammer heard, because things were fitted before hand, and so laid together, I question how this could be in our Congregations now; I beleeve there would be now more of the axe and hammer heard, then of the building seen [...].

SECT. VI. The Argument against the speedy establishment of Church Govern­ment, taken from Christs description, answered.

THen for particular example he propounds Christs example, and therein observeth first his Description, secondly, his Pra­ctise. For the former, he saith, The setting up of Government, §. 6. p. 4. is against the nature of Christs Description of himselfe, and against that sutablenesse he presseth for among all such as should submit to his Commandements; He shall not strive nor cry, neither shall any one heare his voyce in the streets, Matth. 12.12. My yoke is easie, and my burden is light, Matt. 11.29. His Commandements are not grievous; neither doe men put new wins into old bottles.

SECT. VII. Master Colemans experimentall exceptions against the severitie and rigour of the Presbyteriall Government answered.

BVt doth not M ^r. Coleman complaine of the Presbyteriall Go­vernment as too severe and domineering, and that upon his [Page 21]owne experience, and thereupon forecast some strange feares, and strong prejudices against it?

Yes, and he doth it in these words, I will tell you, saith he, both what, and whence my feares are; I feare lest the Presbyteriall Go­vernment should incroach upon the Civill; and I also feare lest it should Prelatically tyrannize; and these my feares arise from Scot­land, and from London.

1. From Scotland, I my selfe did heare the Presbyterie of Eden­borough censure a woman to be banished out of the gates of the Citie; was not this an incroachment?

SECT. VIII. The Argument against the speedy setting up of the Presbyteriall Government taken from Christs practise answered.

A Second exception reduced to the example of Christ in his practise is that § 3. p. 4. Christ Iesus himselfe could as easily have set­led his Government by miracle, as any can now by Civill power, if there had beene such a primary, or morall necessitie of establishing it so soone upon a people scarce enlightened for any part of it. But we see the contrary, first in himselfe, he taught long, and Iohn before him, and so the Disciples, and the gifts for Government were not given till he ascended, and the modell for Government was not brought forth but by degrees, and as people fell in, and were capable of the yoke, and would mould more easily to the Commandements of Christ; and whe­ther then or no, is yet a Question (which some have sit the debates to) though not with me, who am fully perswaded of the power of order which the Apostle ioyed to behold; though a power with as little do­minion in government, as tradition in worship.

SECT. IX. Reasons taken from rules and considerations of prudence answered.

THus much for his Reasons which respect Religion: Now for the Politique part of his Quere, in

• 1. Rules or considerations of Prudence.
• 2. Examples of practise.

His rules of Prudence in the generall are three; the first he layeth downe thus: §. 7. p. 5. The more time (saith he) for trying of spirits, and proving of all things, there is the lesse danger to that State of erring in things received, and authorized, and of involving it selfe into the designes of Ecclesiasticall power, then which nothing hath sooner bro­ken the Civill power; as may be seene in Popish Kingdomes, and our late Prelaticall. There can be no great danger in the not sudden in­corporating the two powers. Since Moses is not alive to bring downe the iust patterne of the Tabernacle, there may a new starre arise, which was not seene at first, which if we shut up our selves too soone, while the smoke is in the Temple, cannot appeare.

SECT. 10. The Negative Argument taken from want of experience of the New Clergie, answered.

FIrst, for the Negative, § 8. p. 5. We have not yet any experience of our new Clergie, (saith he) who are many of them branches of the old stocke, and so may weild the Government too much of the Episcopall faction; as the Samaritanes did with the Jewish Government, because they were not naturall Jewes: It is not safe trusting a power too much into those hands; our Brethren of Scotland have been better used to the way of Presbytery, and may better trust one another upon mutuall experience, then we can yet.

SECT. XI. Objections against the Reasons for the not establishing Church Go­vernment, proposed, and answered, as Objections against M ^r. Saltm. his Tenet in the Quere, with Replies to his answers.

HAving plaid the assaylant against the Church Government hitherto, (but without any impediment or impeachment of moment) he now turneth Defendant, and takes up the Bucklet to ward off objections against his opinion; but whereas there be many such, he meddles but with two onely, and those two such as he thought himselfe best able to answer.

SECT. XII.

SECT. XIII. An additionall Answer to some exceptions of M ^r. Saltm. ( taken out of M ^r. Prinnes Vindication) against the present establishment of Church Government, in his late Booke entituled The opening of M ^r. Prinnes new Booke, called a VINDICATION.

IN this Booke which he nameth The opening of Master Prinnes new Booke called a Vindication; the Authour hath opened him­selfe plainly to be an Independent at least, and opposite to the Pres­byteriall Government; which he hath formerly disavowed, when in conference with him I desired him to declare to which part he inclined; as Section the first hath beene observed.

I shall present the Reader with so much of the matter in this New Booke, as I find symbolicall to the sense and resolution of his New Quere; the summe whereof is in his last answer of P. to C. of which two letters (representing two persons in conference Dia­logue wise) it is very probable P. may stand for Presbyterian, but for C. to me it is very doubtfull whether it be put for the name of my reverend Brother M ^r. Coleman, whom he citeth in the fourth page of his New Quere; or whether C. stand for Congregationall; or if I did not conceive him to be of a better spirit then I have obser­ved in many Antipresbyterian Scriblers, I would thinke C. stood for Christian, with intimation that the Presbyterian government is Antichristian; but I cannot censure so of him, especially since he professeth to honour Presbyterians as beleevers, and brethren in the Lord; brethren as Christians, not his brethren as Presbyters; (if it be true which I heare that he preacheth not as a Presbyter, but as a gifted brother) but this but by the way; that which in this Book we are now to observe is that P. as convinced, and converted by C. is made to say:

P. Well, I am at this time well perswaded, p. 23. Of the opening. and having heard all this, for my part I cannot but see, that in settling things suddenly up­on this Kingdome, and things thus questionable, and unwarrantable in the way of administration, and a Kingdome so full of impenitent and [Page 46]scandalous sinners as Parochiall Congregations generally are, there is danger of great sinne, and great trouble.

SECT. XIIII. The objections taken from a supposed needlesnesse of the Presbytery answered.

THat which he produceth against the Presbytery in M ^r. Prinnes name, consisteth chiefly of two particulars.

1. That there is no necessitie of it, that it should be established.

2. The want of efficacie in it, where it is established.

For the first, he produceth a remarkable passage (as he cals it) out of M ^r. Prinnes Vindication in these words.

And if our Assembly and Ministers will but diligently preach a­gainst that catalogue of scandalous sinnes, and sinners, they have pre­sented to the Parliament, and the Parliament prescribe severe Tem porall Laws and punishments against them, and appoint good Civill Magistrates to see them duely executed, and inflicted; I am confident, that this would work a greater Reformation in our Church and State in one halfe yeare, then all the Church Discipline and Consures now so eagerly contested for, will doe in an age, and will be the onely true way, and speediest course to reforme both Church and State at once; which I hope the Parliament will consider of, and take care, that our Ministers (like the Bishops formerly) may not now be taken up with ruling and governing, but preaching and instructing, which is worke enough, wholly to engrosse their time and thoughts.

SECT. XV. Of M ^r. Colemans Interimisticall Magistracie.

NOr would that way which M ^r. Coleman in his late (and yet perhaps too soon put forth) Re-examination of the Examina­tion of his Sermon remembreth, be so sufficient of it selfe, A Brotherly examination, reexamined. p. 1 [...]. as that if it had prevailed, there would have been no need of a Presbytery to supply the defect thereof, as he delivereth it: it is this,

At the extirpation of the Prelacie, the Honourable Parliament would have established Commissioners in all Counties as an Interi­misticall Magistracie, &c. And this he seemeth to conceive a better way of Church Government then that of the Presbyterie; so much better, that if that had beene set up, this would have beene superfluous.

[Page 52]But in this historicall passage of his, there be many particulars which may come under correction; for first, he saith the Parlia­ment would have established Commissioners in all Counties, as an In­terimisticall Magistracie; And would the Parliament have done it? why did they not doe it? was any power greater then the Parliaments? any prudence more prevalent then theirs? Second­ly, Some, saith he, (and who they were is enough knowne) fearing that if once it were there placed, they should never get it into their hands a­gaine, cryed it downe, and were a stop in the way of the intended worke.

SECT. XVI. The Objection of eager contestation for Church Disci­pline, and Censures answered.

HAving done with M ^r. Colemans Interim, (which came in as a parenthesis to the Discourse we were in, though it be per­tinent to it) I returne to M ^r. Saltm. his exception, taken out of M ^r. Prinnes Vindication, where he aggravates the matter against the Presbyterie, in that, though by the sufficiencie of other Reme­dies it be needlesse, (so it hath beene said, and thereto we have re­plied) it is yet very eagerly contended for.

The Answer is, if he meant it concerning admission to, or re­jection from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper, (which is that which hath beene most agitated betwixt him and some of our Tribe) the contestation on the Ministers part is but for the libertie of their conscience, the puritie of Gods Ordinance, the preventing of Scandall, which causeth and confirmeth Schisme; and in such cases it becomes them not to be remisse, or to manage such a Cause with a Laodicean luke warmenesse, but with servencie of spirit; and yet I doubt not, but their zeale therein, for the chiefest of them, is, and will be guided with knowledge, and both tempered with humility, modesty, and meeknesse of spirit.

And that it hath none affinitie with an affectation of power, or liberty to reject men from the Sacrament at their pleasure, I be­leeve (because I am confident it is the mind of most of those Mini­sters who are competently qualified with knowledge, and grace for their holy function) that it is matter of great griefe of heart unto them to have any occasion of sending any of their Congrega­tions sad from the Sacrament, or (as it may be likely to prove in most cases) with wrath, and heart-burning against themselves. For my part I ever tooke it for one of the great aggrievances which many godly Ministers (who were conformists in the gesture of re­ceiving the Lords Supper) suffered under the domination of the Bishops, that they put it upon them to put such from the Sacra­ment as out of scruple of conscience durst not kneele at the receit of it; and that such were threatned with suspension (and some [Page 54]actually suspended from the Ministery) as admitted Communi­cants either standing, or sitting, though never so well instructed and well affected in matter of Religion, and never so religious in life and conversation; and if I might make mine owne choice, I had rather submit my selfe to the meanest man within my Pastorall charge, in the most servile offices belonging to his person, for a weeke together, then for one time onely returne him from the Lords Table, as unworthy to be admitted to partake of the provi­sion thereof; or as Coenam proximo die dominico sinnus celebra­turi. Hinc cogi­ta quibus an­gustiis nunc constringar; utinon me ab­sente posset cele­brari, bac con­ditione, ut ad vos usque vel manibus repta­rem. Calvin. Epist. Farello, data Calend. Septemb. 1546. Ep. p. 64. in fol. excus. Genev. anno 1575. Calvin once said on the like occasion, I had ra­ther absent my selfe from the Sacrament for that turne, when there is cause to turne any from the Sacrament, though I went away somewhither upon mine hands, then to make any distinguishing disturbance in the celebration of the Supper. And if I know mine owne heart in this point, I thinke it would be as great a trouble to me to be an agent, as to any man to be a patient in such a repulse; and as great a joy if any were able to cleare it unto my conscience, that no part of that Government ought to be committed to my charge, which I ever apprehended as a burden, (and that an heavy one) rather then a priviledge.

Secondly, for the hope that he hath that the Parliament will con­sider of, and take care that our Ministers, (like the Bishops formerly) may not be taken up too much with ruling and governing.

SECT. XVII. The Objection of in efficacie for holinesse of life in such as live under the Presbytery answered.

THe second particular he produceth, in M ^r. Prinnes name, a­gainst the Presbytery is, M. Salim. in his opening of [...] the Vindication. p. 23. 24. and in the Vindica­tion it self. p. 57. the want of efficacie in it, where it is established; which he exemplifieth by instances in severall refor­med Churches elsewhere, and comparing England with them, he saith, That the practicall power of godlinesse is generally more eminently visible in the lives of the generalitie of the people, more strict, pious, lesse scandalous, and licentious in our English Congre­gations, where there hath beene powerfull preaching without the pra­ctise of excommunication, or suspension from the Sacrament, then in the reformed Churches of France, Germany, Denmarke, or Scot­land; for which I appeale (saith he) to all Travellours, and Inde­pendent Ministers, who have lived in the Netherlands, who will, and must acknowledge, that in the sanctification of the Lords Day, strict­nesse of life, and exemplarinesse of conversation, our English Mini­sters and Protestants excell all others.

These be M ^r. Pr. his words, upon which M ^r. Saltm. maketh this inference, viz. That the Vindication, though it pretend in the generall face of it to be for the Presbyterie, yet it is cleare, that in aspersing the Government in all those reformed Kingdomes, where the practise and power of it hath beene, it secretly wounds the glory of it in the opinion of the world; and though it pull not downe the Govern­ment quite, yet it Weakens the posts, or judgements of men, on which it stands.

SECT. XVIII. Shewing what might be retorted upon the Antipresbyteriall party, but concluding for Ʋnitie and Peace, with allegation of M ^r. Burroughs his propositions of reconciliation and accord: and some other particulars tending thereto.

HItherto I have for the most part held out the Buckler of Apo­logie against the exceptions taken at the present setting up of the Presbyteriall Government.

I could now take up the Sword of Assault, and put M ^r. Saltm. to be Defendent, while I bring in Objections against the haste which some of his party make in setting up their Congregationall way, not onely without Authoritie, but against it. For the Pres­byterian Discipline hath beene by Authoritie of Parliament in [...] ­bate, first in the Assembly, afterward in both Houses of Parliament; and so farre as it is agreeable to the word of God, and the example of the best reformed Churches, covenanted to be established in this Kingdome, and in the Kingdome of Ireland, contrary to the Con­gregationall and Independent platform; and many parts of it have beene set forth already by Ordinance, or Order of the Honourable Houses; yet the Presbyterians take not upon them to be active in the choice of Elders, or in any other part of Ecclesiasticall power, but humbly wait for further warrant from the Parliament, to pro­ceed in the work; while many of our dissenting Brethren, of their owne accord, and without the command, or consent, and against the Vote of the Civill State, gather Churches, or continue the Go­vernment of those they have gathered, according to the modell of their owne choosing, notwithstanding the joynt admonition of many eminent Ministers, as well Independent as Presbyteriall, to forbeare, untill what was, and yet is, in part, under deliberation, came to accomplishment: and M. S. Eaton Teacher, and Tim. Taylor, Pastour of the Church of Duckenfield in Cheshire, in their late de­fence of sundry positions and Scriptures to justifie the Congrega­tionall way. some take the boldnesse pub­likely, and in print, to avow themselves as Ministers under the name, and office of Teachers and Pastors of new constituted Churches, and publikely to assert their repugnant principles, and practises, in opposition to that which the Honourable Houses of [Page 62]Parliament have partly authorised already, by their Civill Sanction, and engaged themselves further to authorise, throughout the Churches of both Kingdomes, as God shall be pleased to make way for a thorow reformation, by reducing the severall Countries under the command of the King and Parliament.

But I had rather (then recriminate) friendly and kindly close with my yet dissenting Brother; and therefore heartily commend it to his Christian consideration, to study the reconciliation, and union of all the godly party, (as M ^r. Burroughs hath lately done) and not to proceed to discourses which tend to make, or maintaine divi­sion, or estrangement, and alienation of affection betwixt them.

To that purpose I shall propose as a patterne of imitation to M ^r. Saltm. and to all others who partake with him in his present Opi­nion, what he hath set downe in the seventh Chapter of his Ire­nicum in his owne words.

First, M ^r. Burroughs his Irenieum. c. 7. p. 43, 44, 45. Those in the Congregationall way acknowledge, that they [...] bound in conscience to give account of their wayes to the Churches about them, or to any other who shall require it; this not in an arbi­trary way, but as a dutie that they owe to God, and man.

Secondly, They acknowledge that Synods of other Ministers, and Elders about them, are an Ordinance of Iesus Christ, for the help­ing the Church against errours, schismes, and scandals.

Thirdly, That these Synods may, by the power they have from Christ, admonish men or Churches in his Name, when they see evils continuing in, or growing upon the Church; and their admonitions carry with them the anthoritie of Iesus Christ.

Fourthly, As there shall be cause, they may declare men or Chur­ches to be subverters of the faith; or otherwise, according to the na­ture of the offence, to shame them before all the Churches about them.

Fiftly, They may by a solemne act, in the Name of Iesus Christ, refuse any further communion with them, till they repent.

Sixthly, They may declare, and that also in the Name of Christ, that these erring people, or Churches, are not to be received into fel­lowship with any of the Churches of Christ, nor to have communion one with another, in the Ordinances of Christ: Now all this being done in Christs Name, is this nothing to prevaile with conscience?

[Page 63] If you say, private brethren may admonish, and declare in the Name of Christ.

This is more then if any private Brethren should do the same thing; for at Synod is a solemne Ordinance of Christ, and the Elders are to be looked on as the officers of Iesus Christ.

But our Brethren say, There is one meanes more in their way, then the Congregation all way hath, that is, if the sixe former will not work, then Synods may deliver to Satan.

In this very thing lies the very knot of the Controversie, betweene these who are for the Presbyteriall, and those who are for the Congre­gationall way, in reference to the matter in hand, namely the meanes to reducing from, or keeping out errours and heresies from the Church, in this lies the dividing businesse: But I beseech you con­sider at what a punctum we divide here, and judge whether the cause of division in this thing be so great, as there can be no helpe; and whe­ther, if an evill spirit prevaile not amongst us, we may not joyne; For,

First, consider, what is there in this delivering to Satan? which is a seventh thing which our Brethren thinke may hopefully prevaile with mens consciences, when the sixe former cannot.

Yes, say they, for by this they are put out of the Kingdome of Christ, into the kingdome of Satan, and this will terrifie.

This putting out of Christs Kingdome, must be understood clave non errante; if the Synod judges right, not otherwise; yes, this is granted by all.

Then consider whether this be not done before, and that with an authoritie of Christ, by those former sixe things; for bereticall Con­gregations, or persons, are judged and declared in a solemne Ordi­nance, by the officers of Christ, gathered together in his Name, to be such as have no right to any Church Ordinance, to have no commu­nion with any of the Churches of Christ. Now if this judgement be right, are not such persons, or Congregations put out of the Kingdome of Christ, and put under the power of Satan consequently?

But thirdly. If some brethren rise to a seventh degree, and others stay at sixe, which have yet such a power over conscience, that if they prevaile not, the seventh is no way likely to prevaile: why should not the Apostles rule quiet us all, Phil. 3.15, 16. Whereto we have already attained, let us walke by the same rule; if in any thing you be other­wise minded, God will reveale even this unto you; if we have attained [Page 64]but to sixe, and our Brethren have attained to seven, let us walke to­gether lovingly to the sixe; if God shall after reveale the seventh (we will promise to pray and study in the mean time) we shall walke with them in that also: why must it needs be now urged with violence, so as to divide else? and although we hold not the seventh, yet there is an ingredient in the sixt, that hath in it the strength of the seventh; for wherein lies the strength of the seventh above the rest? is it not in this, that it is the last meanes Christ hath appointed in his Church to work upon the heart? this consideration hath much terror it it; Now those in the Congregationall way say, that this is fully in the sixth, wherefore that is as terrible to their consciences, as the seventh can be to the consciences of our brethren, and that upon the same ground.

If so, what is the difference (for this matter) more then that which hath beene betwixt many godly and Orthodoxe Divines about the division of the Lords Prayer, whether it containe 6. or 7. petitions, when those that are for sixe, have as much matter in those sixe, as those that have seven; and those that have seven, no more then is contained in the sixe? for my part, if this be candidly, and cordially in point of Church Government delivered, and so recei­ved, and professed by those of his side, I hope such as are adversaries unto both parties, shall not long rejoyce, and prosper by the advan­tage they make of our mutuall divisions.

SECT. XIX. Further grounds and hopes of union in the Churches of the Sister Kingdomes of England and Scotland, with Answers to the Objections that are made against it.

I Have the more hope of the Vnion fore-mentioned, because if they (who in respect of the paucitie and noveltie of their party, compared with the Churches of the Presbyterian Government, throughout the Christian World, for number and Seniority are not so considerable as some conceive) will yeeld as farre as they ought, for a pacificall accord, their Presbyterian Brethren will as farre as they may (with securitie to the truth, and reservation of the inte­rest, and honour of the Reformed Churches) come downe to [Page 65]them in such a Christian accommodation, as is requisite for a con­clusion of peace.

My ground for this is that which I have observed in the dispo­sition of the Reverend, Religious, and prudent Commissioners of the Church of Scotland; for though that Church be supposed, and censured by some, as the most rigid in exacting assent to, and ob­servation of her rules, and customes, as if all must yeeld to her, as the Standard of Discipline, and she would yeeld to none, they have alwaies, in all their debates, and behaviour, even towards the dis­senting Brethren, carried themselves with a most Christian and Evangelicall sinceritie, and sweetnesse of spirit, and some of them have well witnessed to the world their hopes, desires, and ende­vours for peace, especially with all the religious and faithfull Prea­chers, and Professours of the Church of England.

For instance, one of them in his Mr. Gillespie his Brotherly examination of some passages of M. C. his prin­ted Sermon. p. 33. This is repeated in his latter Booke called Nihi [...] Respondes. p. 19. Brotherly examination of some passages in M ^r. Colem. his Sermon, to this Question, Where shall the Independents and we meet? returneth this answer, In holding a Church Governmeut jure divino, that is, that the Pastors and El­ders ought to suspend, or excommunicate, according to the degree of the offence of scandalous sinners; and who can tell but the purging of the Church frō scandals, and the keeping of the Ordinances pure, when it shall be actually seen to be the great worke endevoured on both sides, may wake union betwixt us and the Independents more easie then ma­ny imagine? and in his Ibid. latter booke (saith he) we will never de­spaire of an union with such as are sound in the faith, holy in life, and willing to a Church refining and sinne-censuring government, in the hands of Church Officers.

And in answer to M ^r. C. his relation of news of agreement betwixt Presbyterians and Independents, Lutherans and Calvinists, Papists and Protestants, Turks and Christians; in holding that there is a Religion wherein men ought to walke, he saith: No Sir, they must be united upon the like termes, that is, you must first have Turks to be Christians, Papists to be Protestants, and then you must have them as willing to purge the Church of scandals, and to keep the Ordinances pure, &c. And after a few lines before repeated, quitting M ^r. C. his geering report of newes, he replieth (but soberly and seriously) Now will I tell you my news, the Presbyterians and Independents are both equally interested against the Erastian Principles; and which is [Page 66]more, for degree of assurance, and for more generall concurrence in truth and peace; not this Commissioner, nor these Commis­sioners onely, but the whole Church of Scotland, is well prepared, and disposed to a Christian, and Brotherly compliance with the Church of England, in the way of reformation; for M ^r. Coleman having objected that the Commissioners of Scotland came not to the Assembly at Westminster as Divines, by dispute and disquisition to find out the truth, but at Iudges to censure all different opinions as errours; for so (saith he) come for nine Divines to Dort, Alexander to the Councel of Nice, Cyrill to Ephesus; the Learned Commis­sioner answereth him thus: Is it not enough to slander us, though he doe not for our sakes slander those worthy Divines that came to the Synod of Dort, Alexander also and Cyrill, prime witnesses for the truth in their dayes? would no lesse content him then to approve the Objections of the Arminians against the Synod at Dort, which I had mentioned, p. 33? but he gets not away so: the strongest instance which I had given he hath are once touched: it was concerning Paul and Barnabas who wore engaged (not in the behalfe of one Nation but of all the Churches of the Gentiles) against the imposition of the Mo­saicall rites, and had so declared themselves at Antioch, before they came to Ierusalem. Finally, whereas he doubts, though not of our willingnesse to learne more, yet of our permission to receive more: That very paper first given in by we (which I had cited, and unto which he makes this reply) did speake not onely of our learning, but of the Church of Scotlands receiving: And which is more, there is an actuall experiment of it, the last generall Assembly having or­dered the laying aside of some particular customes in that Church, and that for the neerer uniformitie with this Church of England, as was expressed in their owne Letter to the Reverend Assembly of Di­vines. And though they thought it necessary to shew their diffe­rent opinion in one point of the Directory, yet they entred their dissent without any disaffection to us of the Assembly; I will give you their sense in their owne words, which are these:

Onely we have thought it necessary to declare, and make knowne, that the Clause in the Directory for the administration of the Lords Supper, which appointeth the Table to be so placed, that the Com­municants may orderly sit about it, or at it, is not to be interpreted as if in the judgement of our Kirks, it were indifferent for any of the [Page 67]Communicants not to come to, and receive at the Table, or as if we did approve the distributing of the elements by the Minister to each Communicant, and not by the Communicants among themselves, in which particulars we still conceive and beleeve the order and practise of our owne Kirke to be most agreeable to the word of God, the ex­ample of our Lord Iesus Christ, and the nature of that heavenly Feast and Table; neverthelesse in other particulars we have resolved, and doe agree to doe as you have desired us in your Letter: This was part of the Letter from the Generall Assembly at Edenborough, signed thus: Subscribed in the name of the Generall Assembly by Mr. Robert Douglas Moderatour. Feb. 13. 1644.

Whereby we see they doe not for that difference of opinion take any offence, or shew any dislike of their Brethren at West­minster, nor any distast at the rest of the Directory for any parti­cular contained in it.

But yet for all this some are so unwilling to beleeve there will be peace, (especially in the point of Government of the Church) that they faine the Parliament and the Assembly of Divines at irre­conciliable difference about it, the Divines requiring the stampe of Divine right to be set upon it, and the Parliament resolute to yeeld no more authoritie for it, then a meere Civill Sanction can give unto it.

SECT. XX. An Appendix to the precedent examination, being an Apologeticall Narrative of the Petitions of the Common Councell of the Citie, and Ministers of London, presented to both the Honourable Houses of Parliament the 19th and 20th dayes of Novem. 1645. with a Vindication of them, and the proceedings in them, from the scandalous aspersions of the weekely Pamphleters, especially of him, who miscals himself by the name of the Moderate Intelligencer.

BVt howsoever the hope of union hath gon on hitherto, since the Petitions of the Common Councell, and of the Ministers of the Citie, were presented to the Parliament, there is great like­lyhood of a dangerous breach betwixt the Parliament and them, which will not easily be cemented up to perfect accord.

So haply may some conceive, who know no more of the mat­ter then they are told by the Moderate Intelligencer, or by his Plagiatie the writer of the continuation of especiall and remarkable Passages, (who repeats his lying and scandalous Relation, word for word) in these termes: This day the Common Councell did present a Petition to the Commons House of Parliament, by divers Alder­men, and others of that Councell, which seemed to complaine, or take ill the proceedings of the Parliament with the Assembly, in the late businesse past concerning the election of Elders, &c.

The Commons sate long about the businesse, and laid it much to heart, that any such thing should come from the Citie, and that they should lend an eare to any, that should in so evill a way represent things unto them; and of what dangerous consequence it was, and gave them an answer to this effect.

That they did perceive that they had beene informed; and that they could not but lay it much to heart, that they, who had ever beene so [Page 72]ready to doe all good offices for the Kingdome, and goe with the Par­liament, should from any, but the Parliament, take a representation of their proceedings; and intreated them, that herealter they would take satisfaction from themselves: Its true they did beleeve they meant well, and had a good meaning, and intention in it, but they were abused. They had no sooner given answer to this, but there came another from the Clergy, to the same effect, which was more sad then the former, for they conceived this latter was an appeale from the Houses to the people, and of as dangerous a consequence as could be imagined; and that it deserved a high censure: and withall they re­solved, if that was the way intended, they would goe on with their De­claration, and quickly undeceive the people; and in the interim they referred it to the Committee of examinations, that the first contrivers, and after fomenters of this businesse, may be dealt with according to merit.

This is a parcell of their weekly report, but principally his, who miscals himselfe the Moderate Intelligencer, for he is neither In­telligent, writing what he understands not, nor Moderate, being passionately addicted to a partie, to flatter, either out of an erro­neous sancie, fondly set upon irregular novelties in opinion, and practice, or out of a covetous affection to the wages of iniquitie, the reward of flatterie or slander, as the bad cause, whereto he hath engaged his Pen, hath need to be served with the one or the other, and in the latter he hath shewed himselfe this last weeke, a very [...], (that's the word in the Originall for a false accuser) 2 Tim. 3.3. a false accuser of the brethren, Revel. 12.10. not of bre­thren in evill, as Simeon and Levi, Gen. 49.5. but in good, in most sincere, and zealous desires, and endeavours to be serviceable to the Parliament, in prosecution of the great Cause that is in hand, the through reformation of Church and State.

Among whom there are many, who taken single by themselves, might in good manners have been entertained with termes which savour more of reverence, then of contempt; but this three-far­thing News-monger takes upon him, as if he had beene authorised by the Parliament, to involve all the venerable Magistrates, and prime men of power, and trust, in this Honourable Citie, and a very great number of the most learned, laborious, and consciencious Mi­nisters of the Province of London, in an unfaithfull and undutifull [Page 73]association against the Parliament, for their joynt petitioning to the Parliament. And where lyeth the crime, that may make them ly­able to so loud a clamour? was it for petitioning in generall, or for their petitioning in particular?

If we consult with his scandalous paper, we shall find that he layeth an heavie charge upon both: First for the generall, in the precedent page he ushereth it in with an egregious calumny, in these words: p. 203: Now let us come home, and looke about us, and see if while our Army is labouring to subdue the enemy, and end strife, there is not new beginning by those that Fame saith have beene the causes of all the strife; we did intreat them the last weeke they would let the Parliament alone, and waite, and not doubt they would see a good issue, and good content; they need not feare, they may be kept a while from their desires, but in the end they will have content, if their owne earnest pressing for it, doe not hinder.

Now let us come home? It would be well Sir, if you would come home, and keepe at home, and take measure of your owne parts, and sit close to your Trade, and not ramble abroad, to busie your selfe in writing Intelligence of matters which are farre above the elevation of your Pole, or the comprehension of your head-piece. But your zeale perhaps (such a zeale as the Apostle taxeth, which is without knowledge, Rom. 10.2. just like a pressing-iron which hath heat without light) stirred you up to complaine of some troublesome spirits, who, while the Army is labouring to end strife, begin it anew; and they are such (say you) as Fame saith have been the causes of all the strife; and who be they? Fame saith, the late Deputie of Ireland, and the little Drelate of Canterburie were prime causes of the Kingdomes, and the Churches disturbance. And are they since their heads were cut off (as Herod thought of John Baptist, Mark 6.16.) raised from the dead, to revive our divisions? Common Fame saith, the Queene and her Faction, that have parted the King and the Parliament, Digby, Hopton, Goring, Greenvile, and other Military male-contents, have caused, and doe still continue the most dangerous contentions, and convulsions in England, as Moutrosse and his party in Scotland; Ormond, and his barbarous and bloody Papists in Ireland. But we must looke for these make bates at home, and find out such as at present doe trou­ble our peace; and if we doe so, Fame saith, that they are such a­mong [Page 74]us, as oppose the settling of an uniforme Government, and breake out communities into severall Sects; such as so divide the husband from the wife, the parents from the children, the master from the servants, that a zealous Ioshua cannot say, I and my house will serve the Lord, Iosh. 24.15. since his family is distracted, and sorted into severall Congregations, and it may be also into hereti­call conventicles.

Fame saith, that such factious journeymen as M ^r. D. are pub­lique Incendiaries, and Trumpeters of Sedition, by taking all oc­casions, making use of all advantages, casting about for all manner of devices, to increase their divided partie, that they may be able to uphold a faction; and because they cannot hope that their no­veltie and paucitie should be able to maintaine a publique contest against so many both persons and Churches, as are engaged against their way, they make it their Master-piece, to leaven the most con­siderable Societies, Cities, Sea-Townes, Armies, but especially the Parliament, with their Independent Principles, and practices; and either to get Independents into places of chiefe power and trust, or to seduce such as are eminent in dignitie, endowments, or autho­ritie, to their side; and if they cannot obtaine them, they plot how to displace them; and if they cannot doe that, to render them lesse serviceable to the Publique, their way is to weaken their reputa­tion with reproaches, or cunningly to intimate some matter of su­spition touching their acts, or intentions; if they be of such inte­gritie as is of impregnable proofe against their obloquie, then they will, by way of compliance, worke out of them what they can, which may conduce to their designe; and if they can prevaile no further, they will at least by an artificiall sweetnesse of behaviour, by appearances of more then ordinary piety, by a pretended exte­nuation of difference of opinion, and practice, and by such insinua­tions, so becalme or becharme the spirits of some Presbyterians of eminent parts, as to make them, if not favourable to their cause, yet so that they may not appeare against them when they should, or but in a very remisse and moderate degree of opposition. Lastly, (to returne to our Intelligencer) they set up weekly Pamphleters, who are wholly of their stampe, or fee them, or by some other ar­tifices worke upon them, to take all occasions to magnifie their par­tie, and to vilifie and calumniate those that oppose them; and so [Page 75]they sometimes hyperbolize a Shrub on that side into a Cedar, and disparage those, who under God are the chiefe pillars, and suppor­ters of the publique welfare, as if they were of no more worth, or use, then Reeds shaken with the wind; and this is not the least part of the Independent policy, to drive on their designe all over the Kingdome; for most of the common people know little of the progresse of publique affaires, but by such Informers, and they furnish them with weekly lies, to honour those of their owne sect, or sects rather, (for they are many) and to cast reproaches on such as are serious, and resolute in all just, and lawfull meanes of esta­blishing of truth, and restoring of peace.

But it may be he meaneth by Fame, that report which he and his fellowes in loose sheets have dispersed abroad in City, and Countrey; and if so, I say, Famaest malum, his fame is infamous; notoriously false, as he applyeth it, viz. to those who make ad­dresses to the Parliament by way of Petition. We did intreat (saith he) the last weeke they would let the Parliament alone, and wait, and no doubt they would see a good issue, and good content.

We did intreat them to let the Parliament alone? We Sir, who besides your selfe? and why you? and what meane you by letting the Parliament alone? doe you forbid the subject of England to petition the Parliament? if that be your meaning (as a man of Mo­derate Intelligence may easily perceive it is) do you not mean they should be deprived of the most undoubted Priviledge, and Libertie, which by the Law of Nature, and of Nations, is allowed all over the world? if the Parliament had beene of that mind, since their first Session, they would not have tendred so many Petitions to the King, nor have received so many Petitions from all parts of the Kingdome; nor could they (but by the informations received in them) have knowne so much of the distemper of severall Coun­ties, nor had so just grounds and causes as they had, for many of their Orders, and Ordinances, which were issued out from that Ho­nourable Senate: and your selfe say in the next page, that a part of the Parliaments Answer to the Citie Petition was, that the Citi­zens were intreated hereafter that they would take satisfaction from themselves, that is, satisfaction of their doubts, and desires by im­mediate recourse to that Honourable Court; and how can that be better, or more acceptably done, then by way of petition?

[Page 76]But he saith, They need not feare, they may be kept a while from their desires, but in the end they will have content, if their own earnest pressing for it, doe not hinder. How knowes he that better then they, who have put up their desires for expediting the difficulties of the Government, by way of petition to the Parliament? The truth is, if he beleeve what he writes, it is but as the Devill be­leeves there is a God, with a very ill will, and if he do not tremble at it, he is afraid of it; and he would have the Orthodox party but so to beleeve it too, as to make them neglect the best meanes to pro­cure it; for it hath been another piece of subtilty of these sonnes of Zerviah, 2 Sam. 3, 39. to delay resolution against their way, by pre­tence that there is no need of speed in it, or no fit season or oppor­tunity for it, that their opposites may securely sleep, or slacken their endevours, while they with intentive vigilance, and double dili­gence, worke on their owne webbe towards the period they have projected; and give them but time to prosecute their cause, and they that say now wee need not feare, will say at length perhaps, wee may not hope to enjoy our desires; and it may be they will endevour to See the Epi­stle Dedicatory to the High end Honoura­ble Court of Parliament, of Mr. Prinues [...]resh Discovery of some prodigi­ous new wan­dring-blazing­starres and fire­brands, &c. fol. 3. p. [...]. And Dr. Bast­wicks Preface to the second part of his Booke against Indepen­dency, called the Postscript. fol. 14. p. b. & fol. 15. p. 2. affright us that they will have theirs by force of armes.

Lastly, he makes as if over earnest pressing for the Government, were the way to hinder it; and abating the word Over, (which is his word of aggravation, for he thinkes all's too much that is done to such a purpose) we doubt not but an earnest, and humble pressing by way of petition, will prevaile; for it is not fit to trouble the Parliament with any matter which is not worthy of pressing im­portunity; though I confesse there is a prudence to be observed, when, and how, and how farre to prosecute a suite in that most high and Honourable Court: And so from his exception against Petition­ing in Generall, we will come to what he hath said of the Petitions in Particular, which this weeke were presented to the two Hou­ses of Parliament, This day (that is, Wednesday the nineteenth of November, &c.) saith he, The Common Councell did present a Peti­tion to the Commons House of Parliament, — and there came ano­ther from the Clergie to the same effect, &c.

Of these Petitions it will be convenient to consider;

• 1. How they were framed.
• 2. How they were presented.
• 3. How they were accepted.

[Page 77]1. For the first, we shall distinctly observe;

• 1. The occasion of the Petitions.
• 2. The contents of them.
• 3. The consent and concurrence for resolu­tion about them.

SECT. XXI. The occasion of the petitions of the Common Councell and Mini­sters of London, and the presenting of them to the Honourable Houses of Parliament.

THe Occasion is contained in this Declaration following, made by the Ministers of London, and by them presented to the Ho­nourable Court of Common Councell of the City in this Tenour.

Wee the Ministers of London, having heretofore received from the Right Honourable the late Lord Major, A Resolve of the Ho­nourable House of Commons, of September 23. 1645. for choosing Elders forthwith in the Province of London, with their Order an­nexed of October 8. 1645. for communicating the same to our respe­ctive Congregations, did thereupon choose a Committee in our names, both to acquaint the Lord Major how we had obeyed the said Order, and further to signifie unto him some doubts, and difficulties, for pre­sent obstructing our further progresse therein.

Whereupon his Lordship was pleased to impart the same to the Ho­nourable Court of Common Councell, which the Honourable Court so farre resented, as to appoint a Committee of their owne members to conferre further with the Ministers about the Premisses, October 20. In which conference we declared to the said Committee that some of the former doubts were removed by the Directions of the Lords and Commons of August 19. and the Ordinance of October 20. 1645. but that some were continued, and other new difficulties did rise, by occasion of the Directions and Ordinance. The result of which Conference was represented to this Honourable Court, attested by their owne Committee.

Ʋpon which an Order of Court was sent unto us, Dat. Octob. 27. 1645. intreating the Ministers to present their desires and reasons thereof to this Court in writing under their hands. In reference un­to which Order, wee the Ministers of London ( thankfully acknow­ledging [Page 78]our selves much obliged both to the Right Honourable the said Lord Maior, and this Honourable Court, for all their loving respects unto us in this matter, so much laid to heart by them) did humbly present both our desires, and the reasons thereof: Their de­sires are the same which are comprised in their Petition, which in its proper place will offer it selfe to the Reader. The Reasons I thinke it fit to forbeare, for divers reasons, whereof that which I shall mention in the third particular may be sufficient.

The second thing is the Contents, which consisted chiefly of re­quests, and reasons for the establishment of the Presbyteriall Go­vernment; wherein, though the penning of each Petition was divers in style, and forme of words, yet as I know for the one, which I saw, so I beleeve of the other, which I saw not, that there was nothing in it, which they thought would be offensive to either House of Parliament.

This traducing Intelligencer saith, the Citie Petition seemed to complaine, and take ill the proceedings of the Parliament with the Assembly, in the late businesse past concerning the election of Elders. But they did but seeme so, and to such perhaps onely, as were not acquainted how carefull they were (who were composers or perusers of the Petition) to shunne any expression, that might be justly lyable to the exception of the chiefe Sages of the King­dome.

For the third particular, they consented to exhibite the same Schedule of Reasons, (being in number twelve) that were ten­dered by the Ministers to the Honourable Court of Common Councell; which, because they were pleased to owne, I will not presume to make publique, without their consent; yet their con­sent I may note (to their great commendation, and for their just vindication from the imputation of Schisme, which hath beene re­proachfully charged upon the Citizens of London) which was such, that, as I have heard from such as I dare beleeve, the Petition being read in the Common Councell, passed with a nemine contradicente, not one man giving a negative vote against it; which is an assured argument of the soundnesse of the Aldermen, and Common Coun­cell, (the most Honourable, and considerable part of the Citizens) and of their clearnesse from the taint of hereticall, and schismati­call Tenets; and this union was well observed as a confutation of [Page 79]their reports, who had gloried in a pretended generall opposition to the Presbyteriall Government in this Citie.

The second thing is the presenting of these Petitions, which was done at the House of Commons, (upon Wednesday the nine­teenth of November) to whom the Citie Petition was first pre­sented by a competent number of Aldermen, and of the Common Councell, and afterwards the Petition of the Ministers by many of them; and on the twentieth day was each Petition presented to the House of Peeres, in like manner as the day before to the House of Commons.

SECT. XXII. The offensive Acceptance of them by the Parliament, as the weekely News-makers make report of it: Cautions premised before their confutation.

FOr the third particular, the acceptance the Petitions had; This Malignant Intelligencer tels his Reader, that the Commons sate long, and laid it much to heart that any such thing should come from the Citie, and that they should lend an eare to any, that should in so evill a way represent things to them, and of what dangerous conse­quence it was.

To which before I make any punctuall Reply, I desire to pre­mise these particulars.

1. That in nothing that I have said, or shall say, I intend any contradiction to the Honourable House of Commons.

2. I beleeve not this Relater hath truly delivered the fence of that House.

3. That if any worthy Member among them, according to any information received, and beleeved by him, have used his libertie in speaking of his mind, (though his wisdome, as well as others in­nocencie, may be abused by mis-report) I shall not desire to raise any part of my Reply so high as to him, but to confine my selfe to the report of this Pamphleter, who I am sure hath no Parliamen­tary priviledge to speake what he pleaseth; (which yet a Parlia­ment man, that hath it, will not take upon him to use when he is out of Parliament, as when he is in it.) And if any of that grave [Page 80]and judicious Senate, supposing us faulty, have thought it fit and just that we should be charged, we doubt not but there are many a­mong them, who, if we be innocent, will be well content to see us cleared; since for many of us, their Honour is in part ingaged for our reputation, in the We have con­sulted with the Reverend, Pi [...]us, and Learned, Di­vines called to­gether to that purpose. The Ordinance of Parliament of the third of January, 1644. prefixed before the Directory. p. 1. publique Testimonie they have given of us to three Kingdomes; and the most of us are the same men, and have the same consciences engaged in the desire of a present establishment of Government, so as it may be safely, and profita­bly practicall, who in confidence of the goodnesse and godlinesse of the Reformation owned, managed, and maintained by the Parlia­ment; and in hearty and faithfull devotion thereto, and ready and cheerfull obedience to them, have suffered the shipwrack of our estates, and hazarded our lives, and we repent not of any part of our paines, or pressures, or perils, so long as we may be serviceable to so good a Cause, and to such good and gracious Masters, as under Christ they have hitherto approved themselves toward us: and I hope we may without vain-boasting say, by way of Apology, that we have not beene altogether their unprofitable servants, in re­spect of our Interest in, and endeavours with the people, (with­out whom the greatest Kings are rather cyphers then figures, and destitute both of honour and safety, Prov. 14.28.) to informe their judgements, and to inflame their zeale, and to oblige their con­sciences, to fasten their affections in loyaltie, and fidelity to those worthy P [...]triots, whom they have in their choice and votes of election intrusted with the Religion, the lives, and the estates of themselves▪ and their posteritie.

To which purpose we cannot be of so good use, nor our medi­ation so effectuall for hereafter, as aforetime, if we be such Pre­varicators as he hath represented us to the publique view; or, not being such, if we suffer our innocence to be betrayed in mistrust to suspition, by either inconsiderate or cowardly silence.

Thus much premised in dutie to the Honourable House of Com­mons, and in due circumspection and caution to my Reverend Brethren, and my selfe, I shall now make answer to the charge given out, and the answer (so farre as it concerneth us) may be partly made out of the conclusion of the Schedule, (as it was ten­dered with the reasons of the Ministers to the Court of Common C [...]uncell in confo [...]itie to their desires made knowne unto us) [Page 81]which was as that Honorable Assembly can witnesse with us, in these words: These our desires and reasons we humbly present to this Honourable Court, not that we have the least intention of investing our selves and the Ministery with any arbitrarie, unlimited, and exor­bitant power: For the power is not to be settled upon the Ministers alone, but upon the Presbyteries; in all which it is provided already, that there shall be alwaies two at least of the people for one Minister; And we sincerely professe our desires and intentions to manage this weightie Government, not according to our wils, or wisdomes, but as neere as is possible, according to the will and word of God, the most certaine Rule in the world; nor that we would carry on this work by might and power, for we have good hope that God in due time will pa­tronize his owne Cause, though men should be wanting; but that we may discharge a good conscience, in our utmost endeavours to advance the Kingdome of Christ, in the puritie of Reformation, to be faithfull to the Church of Christ, wherein we are stewards, and watchmen; and to succeeding posteritie, to maintaine the truth to which we are bound to beare witnesse; to fulfill our solemne League and Covenant with God, from which we cannot goe backe; and as your remembran­ [...]ers, to put you in mind to neglect no pious endeavours, in your places, and callings, for expediting both your selves, and us, out of the former difficulties, and for promoting of such a Reformation of Religion in Discipline and Government, as may have due puritie in it selfe, may bring sweet unitie amongst us, and most conduce to an happy unifor­mitie in all the three Kingdomes, according to the vowes of God that are upon you in your solemne League and Covenant.

He goeth on saying, that the House did perceive that they had beene mis-informed, and that they could not but lay it much to heart that they who had ever beene so ready to doe all good offices for the Kingdome, and goe with the Parliament, should from any but the Parliament take a representation of their proceedings.

Mis-informed, wherein? is there any thing untrue in that they presented in their Petition, or Schedule annexed? and by whom mis-informed? by the Ministers of London? that is the meaning, but certainly they that originally made this suggestion are little ac­quainted with the minds, consciences, intentions, or proceed­ings of the Ministers who gave in their writing to the Common Councell of the Citie, subscribed with no fewer then fourescore [Page 82]and nine hands; and they had presented more to the Parlia­ment if they had not beene strai [...]ned in time, for the Petition was drawne up but at night, and was to be delivered the next morning.

And for the Honourable Court of Common Councell of the Citie, (though their prudence, integritie, dignitie, good affection, and fidelitie to the Parliament, have no need, nor doe desire any defence of so meane or feeble an hand as mine is) I hope it will not be either offensive, or ungratefull to them, if (having had often conference (as well as other of my Brethren) with their Com­mittee, and being sent with some of them, in the name of the Ministers of London, to the Honourable Court of Common Coun­cell, on Tuesday, November 18. where the Citie Petition was publiquely read, and ratified by common consent) I make report of some passages, wherein they and we are joyntly concerned; as followeth.

There being a Committee of Common Councell chosen by that Councell, to consult with a Committee of Divines, and to con­sider of our common engagements in the Presbyteriall Govern­ment, (for some of them, with some of us were already chosen to be Provinciall Tryers of Elders, and the same, and many others of the Citizens were like to be chosen for Parochiall Elders) we saw not how we could be divided in difficulties, if the Directions were not cleared; nor in hazards, if we were not sufficiently au­thorised to carry on the service, who were in part already, and yet were further to be united in that great (and to this Kingdome al­together) new undertaking; at our Committees we observed no­thing in those worthy Citizens of the Committee, nor in those who were partly permitted, and partly requested to be present at our meetings, but what was sutable to piety, prudence, and to af­fectionate and dutifull observance of the Parliament; and it was our joy, as it may be their glory, that we found so many men of ex­cellent parts, and spirits, so well composed, and balanced, without any propension to be swayed any way further then the light of truth, and dictate of conscience did dispose them: and yet so farre from over-weening wit, or selfe-conceited wilfulnesse, that while we debated difficulties with them, we saw that of Solomon veri­fied in them, Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser, teach a just man, and he will increase in learning, Prov. 9.9.

[Page 83]And though they were pleased to entertaine us with much ho­nour, and favour, we neither tooke upon us to be their guides, in the carriage of this Cause, nor to perswade them to any thing, but what would be the result of their owne judgements, and con­sciences, upon a due consideration of the matters before them; nor did we know untill Tuesday night, the next night before the morning of their going to Westminster, that they would petition; nor when that was resolved on, did any of us know, or see that Pe­titionary draught, or so much as a line of it, which they presented to the Parliament; onely when my selfe, with some of my Bre­thren, were sent from the Divines of London, then Assembled at Sion Colledge, to know their minds, how farro they would ap­peare in the proposall of requests and reasons, or what part they would assigne or leave to us (who were resolved to make an hum­ble addresse by our selves to the Parliament, if they would not) being called into the Court of Common Councell, we received from the mouth of the Right Honourable the Lord Maior that now is, some generall words of gracious acceptance of what we had done, and of their concurrence with us, for the establishment of Church Government; but withall, not knowing their purpose in particular, we were left to our owne resolutions, to present our desires to the Parliament, as we conceived to be most convenient for us.

In all this what was there which might imply any digression from dutie, or any diversion from their or our due respect unto the Honourable Houses?

Object. But they tooke the representation of the Parliaments pro­ceedings not from the Parliament, as they desired, but from others, viz. the Ministers. The quite contrary is true; The Ministers re­ceived the representation of the Parliaments proceedings from the Lord Maior, and both Citizens, and Ministers, being in a concur­rent condition for scruples and dangers, tendred their Petitions, and Reasons unto them, for satisfaction from them; wherein there was as faire and ingenuous dealing, as could be desired; for the Ministers tendred nothing to the Committee, or Common Coun­cell, but what they were willing should be read, heard, and exa­mined, and discussed by any of what mind or affection so ever; nor could that possibly be carried in a private way, which came under [Page 84]the consideration of the Committee so many times, and after­ward was committed for probation and tryall of the whole Com­mon Councell; and as openly and plainly to the Ministers dealt with the Citie, so did both the Citie and, Ministery with the Par­liament, presenting the same Schedule of Reasons, (annexed to each of their Petitions) to their view and censure; which patterne of plaine dealing I commend to the imitation of some of our In­dependent Brethren, that their waies may not be such Ridles (e­ven to those who are no lesse wise, but more innocent then they) that they cannot tell where they have beene working, no more then of the Moles of the earth, untill they see the heapes they have cast up, and they glide away so slily in their pace, as if they meant to give occasion for a fifth particular to be added to Solomons Pro­verbe, There be three things too wonderfull for me, yea foure which I know not; the way of an Eagle in the ayre, the way of a Ser­pent upon a rocke, the way of a Ship in the midst of the sea, and the way of a Man with a maid, Prov. 30. 18, 19. To these as a margi­nall note, though not as a part of the Text, we may adde, and the way of some Independents in their plots.

SECT. XXIII. A Copy of the Ministers Petition, and the Intelli­gencers slanderous censure of it.

HAving done with the Cities Petition, which he makes the Simeon, he brings in the Petition of the Ministers as the Levi, or its Brother in [...]vill, in this sort: But there came another Petition from the Clergy to the same effect, which was more sad then the for­mer; for they conceived this latter was an appeale to the people, and of as dangerous a consequence as could be imagined; and that it de­served an high consure; and withall they resolved if that was the way intended, they would goe on with their Declaration, and quickly undeceive the people; and in the Interim they referred it to the Committee of Examinations, that the first contrivers, and after f [...] ­ [...]tors of the businesse, may be dealt withall according to merit.

For answer unto this, it might be sufficient (if I had to doe [Page 85]with one that were indeed, and not in name onely a Moderate In­telligencer) to set downe the Petition in Terminis as it was pre­sented to both Houses of Parliament; but laying that as a ground­worke, it will be meet to build on to a full confutation.

This being the Petition to a word, pardon mine incredulitie if I beleeve not that you can perswade any Intelligent Reader, that so prudent a Senate as the Honourable House of Commons is, could so mistake the meaning of it, as to put such an odious con­struction upon it, as an Appeale from them to the people, the people of London; that were to sow sedition, and endeavour dissention be­twixt the Parliament and the Citie, (whose unanimous consent, and correspondence in counsels, and executions, have been, under God, the strongest suppport of the whole Common-weale) a crime worthy of the reward of Metius Suffetius in Ʋt paulo ante (inquit Tullus) animum inter Fidenatem Ro­manemque rem ancipitem gessisti, it a jam corpus passim distraben­dum dabis. Exinde duabus admotis qua­drigis, in currus earum distentum illigat Metium, deinde in diver­sum iter equi concitati lacerum in utroque curru corpus, qua inhae­serant vinculis membra, p [...]rtan­tes, &c. Liv. Dec. 1. lib. 1. p. 14. Livy, who for his double dealing betwixt the Fide­nates and the Romanes, was so fastened to two Cha­rets, that the Horses that drew them being forced divers waies into a furious pace, fore him in pieces.

But Sir, if those on your partie doe no worse offices to the Citie, by your insinuations into the minds of the worthy Members of the Honourable Houses, then Presbyteriall Ministers doe to the Parliament, by their entercourse with the Citizens, there will be no occa­sion given for the least shew of suspition, or jealousie [Page 87]betwixt them; and whosoever shall read your paper and mine An­swer, will see good cause to conceive, that some of your spirit have too busily bestirred themselves, out of the union betwixt Citizens and Ministers to raise a Division betwixt the Parliament and Citie, (which he that desires to see, I wish rather that the Ravens of the valley pick out his eyes, Prov. 30.17.) But that union doth clearly confute the calumny you cast upon the Ministers Petition; for so farre is it from an appearance of an Appeale from the Parliament to the people, that it plainly representeth both Ministers and people consulting, and concluding, joyntly to make an Appeale to the Parliament, and humbly waiting to be disposed of by their finall Resolutions.

This is it sure for which you say, the latter Petition was more sad then the former; for when that came in so conformable to the Citie Petition in matter, (though differing in phrase & style) and in scope, and Intention, and word for word the same in a Schedule of Reasons annexed to it, it was an evidence of so good agreement betwixt the most eminent Citizens, and the forementioned Mini­sters, as must needs be a great griefe of heart to those, that make great advantage of the divisions of Reuben, yea and of all the Tribes throughout out Israel.

He goeth on with a proficiencie from bad to worse; and though he hath no honey at all, he hath a double sting in the taile of his Intel­ligence; scruing up a charge against the Petitioners to the highest aggravation that may be, and concluding with the commination of a censure, commensurate to their merit. For the Charge these be his words: They (that is, the House of Commons) conceived this latter, (that is, the Petition of the Ministers) was an Appeale from the Houses to the people, and of as dangerous a consequence as could be imagined

Having answered the former words, I will now speake onely to the latter: But first I must pause and wonder a while at this su­perlative Slander. How Sir, Was that Petition of as dangerous a consequence as could be imagined? no such matter Sir. For what danger at all can be imagined in it, when all is in effect no more but this, that the Citizens and Ministers upon Petition may clearly un­derstand the mind of the Parliament, and may be throughly enabled to put in execution their commands, to obey them to the full according [Page 88]to their engagement in the solemne Covenant. Such fearefull appre­hensions, even of dangerous consequence, (if they be reall, not fained) may proceed from the selfe-love of your party, who con­fine the common felicitie to your owne particular Interests; and thinke the world will be in a very ill condition, if the Presbytery should be set up, and should set bounds to your ambitious, or co­vetous encroachments upon the rights of Ministers and people: and it may be (because you are no Ionasses, to be willing to be cast into the Sea to save the Ship and passengers in it) you may have in your thoughts some Military commotion of your owne making; for you know, or may know, that bloody words, lyable to such a sence, and tending to the like effect, have beene more then once laid to the charge of some of your side, as hath beene noted, pag. 76.

And if your dangerous consequence be but a fiction and pretence, (which I rather imagine) it must be supposed to be but a cast of your subtilty, to make the simple afraid of, and to beget a mistrust of some dangerous designe in the Ministers, that they may desert them, and adhere unto you, as men of prudent insight into immi­nent mischieves, and of provident forecast to secure them from danger who betake themselves to your cause and complices for succour and safety.

Which of these conjectures is true, (or whether any other, any worse, for a plaine Presbyterian is too shallow to sound the depth of a projecting Independent) I will not determine; but I will confidently resolve, that such an imagination of transcendent dan­ger in the Petition of the Ministers, was no part of the mind of the major part of the House of Commons; (which must give deno­mination to the whole) for they can never be so much mistaken, as to put such an exuberant expression of offence upon so inoffensive a Petition; who very well know, and cannot but as well remem­ber, your Brother Lilburnes businesse, and what seditious papers he, and his faction sent abroad; which if you had forgotten (for I doubt not but such a schismaticall polypragm [...]n, as those that know you report you to be, if not wise enough to be of his coun­sell, may be busie enough to be active in his desperate designe) I would helpe your memory with a repetition of some such passages out of them, as might be worthy of your now misapplied aggra­vation, [Page 89][ of as dangerous consequence as may be imagined] but that I thinke them fitter to be burned by the common Hangman, or bu­ried in everlasting oblivion, then now to be mentioned, especially in a Discourse of defence of the Innocent. And truly Sir next unto Lilburnes Libels, we may say of your malevolent Intelligence of this weeke, that it is a matter of as dangerous consequence as may be imagined: For doo not you, as farre as your credit will carry a mischievous suggestion, disperse all about a suspition of the Cities and Ministers combination against the two Houses of Parliament? who have hitherto with honour and safetie very much confided in their affection, and fidelitie, (as I doubt not they will ever have cause so to doe) though such malignant medlers as you say and doe what they can to the contrary.

SECT. XXIV. Britanicus taxed for traducing the Petitioners.

YOur Athenian Colleague, Britanicus, (though they that reade you both, will haply take you to be rather a Boeotion in crasso jurares aere natum. Horat. Beotian) hath a conceit of some disparagement to the Parliament, by a supposed di­vision, though he lay his action wrong, mistaking an occasion for a cause, and one person for another: whom, though I first mention him in way of opposition to you, I must take for an adversary to us, I meane to the City and Ministry in this businesse of Petition; and when I have given him an animadversion by the way, I shall return unto, and proceed with you. It may prove (saith he) a train to blow up the reputation of the renowned Parliament, and harden the enemy in their courses, if they should see a doore of hope opened through any supposed divisions; the common Adversary will take heart againe, and those which favour them (whether at home or abroad) will dare again to shew themselves, as not doubting to perfect their designe, if we dis­joynt our selves, and contribute to our owne ruine.

Divisions among us divulged by you, may animate the common Enemy to a greater height of hopes, and attempts, so much his ob­servation implyeth, and that's your fault, M ^r. Intelligencer, but he applyeth it to the Petitioners, and that's his calumny, as well as yours. It may prove, saith hee, a traine &c. What is that that may [Page 90]prove so? the Petition? the Petition a traine to blow up the reputation of the Parliament? Reade it, Sir, and you will see it is not a train [...], but a Trumpet to blow up their reputation with a loud sound, and melodious accent, with humble thankes acknowledging, and high­ly extolling them by the name of A renowned Parliament, for their indefatigable endevours for five years together, for the Kingdoms hap­pinesse, and the Churches Reformation. And can the Petition be charged to open a doore of hope to the enemies, through supposed divisions from the Parliament, when it expresly maketh the Par­liament a doore of hope of much happinesse to the Kingdome? It is an easie matter to turne the most innocent action, or businesse, into an occasion of exception; but they are the causes (for the particular in question) both of disturbance to the Parliament, and of danger from the common enemy, who proclaime unkindnesse betwixt the Parliament, and their most faithfull, and serviceable Votaries, the Common Councell, and Ministers of the City of London.

This Retortion, as by a kind of partnership, belongeth to both these false Brethren, but taking Britannicus by himselfe, he begin­neth at the beginning of the weeke, by the figure Anticipation, for the Petitions were not presented to the Honourable Houses untill two o [...] three dayes after; and so he cometh over the matter againe upon Wednesday and Thursday: In the first place he findeth fault with Petitioning, as out of season, and so indiscreet, and as imputing neglect to the Parliament, and implying distrust of the Indgment & care of those whom we acknowledge the wisest and supreme Councell, and so undutifull; but neither so nor so, for the purpose of Petition­ing was so fanned and sifted, by the free and impartiall debates of divers wise and worthy Citizens, and by learned and well advised Ministers, that if there had been any folly or indiscretion, it would have vanished into nothing; but, Sir, I can assure you of my know­ledge, the more it was weighed and examined, the more it was approved by the prudent, as well as the pious of both Societies, not only as necessary, but as seasonable also. And if the Honourable Houses were intentively imployd to perfect the Government, and did set themselves in a constant course, and chose set dayes for that purpose, and the day of presenting the Petition was one of them, (all which I beleeve, and cannot thinke of it without thankes to them, nor without praises of them, and prayers for them) yet [Page 91]was it not unseasonable to petition them, because the concurrent desires of so many, so considerable Petitioners might be a meanes to remove some obstructions, Qui monet u [...] facias qu [...]d jam facis [...]de moven­do and to facilitate and expedite the bu­sinesse they had in hand. Nor was it any distrust, or impeachment of the high praise of their prudence, for you know the old and ever true Aphorisme, when the Acts of goodnesse doe anticipate admo­nitions, Laudat, & hortatu compre­bat acta suo. Ovid. (and we may say the like of Petitions) they are so far from repr [...]ofes, that they are the praises of the Actors.

Nor is there any more cause to impute undutifulnesse, or ill man­ners unto the Petitioners, then there is to accuse them of want of policie, or prudence, for this particular; nor any ground to straine up the charge so high, as if that which they did were preju­diciall, and derogatorie to the Majesty of Parliament, in forestalling their counsels with any particular desires. So say you M ^r. Br. in your Wednesdayes accompt: But I pray you, Sir, by what dialect doe you call those Petitions particular desires, which were concluded in a full Common Councell, (the representative body of this fa­mous, and never more then since our late and unhappy warres, renowned City) not one man (as I have been credibly informed) appearing against it at the passing of the Vote; and that not for any particular person, or purpose, but for the generall good of three King­domes, both for the generation present, and for posterity in the ages to come? And what prohibition I pray you lyes against parti­cular Citizens and Ministers, that they may not Petition the Parlia­ment with particular desires, as well as you? Did not you when you were confined, for shewing your selfe rather an over-nimble Mercury, then a sober paced Britannicus, petition them your selfe for your enlargement? And when you did so, did you do any thing prejudiciall and derogatory to the Majesty and Dignity of Parlia­ment, and as it were forestall their counsels with your particular de­sires? If not, shew us your priviledge, which may make it no fault in you, and an indiscretion, or undutifulnesse, or ill manners in others.

I shall need to proceed no further in answer to your Criticismes, I see you are ingenious in your apprehensions, and ingenuous in confession of your owne misprisions; and since I perceive you so punctuall in rectifying your Reader to a title, (for you acknow­ledge a mistake in honouring Sir The Aston (with whom I have [Page 92]had much, and some perillous opposition in the Cause of the Parlia­ment) with the Title of a Lord) doubt not but you will be as ready to retract an undeserved traducement of the Parliaments friends, (especially so many, and of so great reputation) as to recall an unde­served advancement of the Parliaments enemy.

I will take leave of you with a word of advice, which is but this, take heed of engaging your selfe any further in this cause, see first how the Immoderate Intelligencer speeds with his precipi­tated reproaches against the City, and Ministers of London; to whom now I will returne, and take leave of him, though not in such a manner as I doe of you; and having answered his crimina­tion, I shall now enter a defence against his commination of censure.

SECT. XXV. An answer to the Intelligencers Commination of the Petitioners.

HAving set the suspition of guilt up to the height, not onely of reality but of imagination, he scrueth up the censure to a pro­portionable elevation, saying, in the name of the Honourable House of Commons, (but without any warrant from them) that it de­served an high censure, and withall that they resolved, if that were the way intended, they would goe on with their Declaration, and quickly undeceive the people, and in the Interim they referred it to the Committee of Examinations, that the first contrivers, and after fomenters of that businesse, may be dealt with according to merit.

These words may sound some terrour to him, —Hic mur [...] abeneus esto, Nil conseire sibi, &c. Horat. that hath but a brasen face, but he that hath a wall of brasse, a cleare conscience from the guilt objected, may be bold as a Lion, when such as you may flee when no man pursueth, Prov. 28.1. For more particular Reply, S ^r. we cannot be put into fear of an high censure, while we are assured of our owne innocence, and the Houses of Parliaments both prudence and justice; and therefore we shall willingly submit our selves to examination, when, and where they please to call us to our answer; and if our accusers would meet us at the barre, upon [Page 93]such just and equall termes as lege talionis by the Divine law is or­dained, Deut. 19.16, &c. we would petition them againe for a tryall, and punishment, (upon conviction) as before for the esta­blishment of the Presbyteriall Discipline.

For the Declaration you speake of, there be two things which will secure us from all danger of it; the one is, that whatsoever it is, it is but conditionall, viz [if this be the way] that is, the way of seditious appeale from the Parliament to the people, and we are sure that's no way of ours: how neere the Independent by-path coasts upon, or bends towards that way, may appeare by their ma­king combinations with the people, and setting up a popular Go­vernment in the Church, without any authoritie from the State.

The other securitie we have is both from the Parliament, and our selves, as we have professed before, and in confidence of both, neither Parliamentary Examinations, Declarations, no nor Visita­tions shall trouble us; for if we be guilty, let them visit our trans­gression with the rod, and our iniquitie with stripes, Psal. 89.32. and (if we deserve it) let them chastise us not onely with Solomons whips, but with Reboboams scorpions, 1 King. 12.14.

There is one thing more in his minatory report, which, though he tell it as a threat, I would take it for a promise, if he could make it good in the right sense of it, that is, quickly to undeceive the peo­ple, for they are shamefully deceived many waies, especially by such impudent Impostors as this weekly Newes-maker; with whom I have now done. And in confutation of Britannicus and him, I have confuted others, who concurr [...] with them in the same calumnies against the Common Councell, and Ministers of London.

SECT. XXVI. The misreport of the Diurnall and Weekely Account confuted, and the Perfect Passages con­vinced of absurdity and sedition.

YEt I must bestow a few words on the Perfect Diurnall, and Weekely Account, and a few lines on the Perfect Passages: For the first, omitting what is virtually or formally answered be­fore, [Page 94]under the Titles forementioned, I shall note but one parti­cular, which is, that it was ordered as a part of the answer to the Ministers, that they should returne home, and looke after and attend the charges of their severall Congregations; so saith the Perfect Di­urnall; and the Weekly Account, saith, the Ministers were desired to looke diligently to their owne flocks, with this addition of the Wri­ter, a neighty charge, and worke enough; by which is implied that they were negligent in their Calling, and too busie out of it; but as there was no ground for such an implicit reproofe, so there was no such message given in the Name of the House to the Mi­nisters, as he that presented the Petition confidently averreth, to whom other Ministers that accompanied him doe give atte­station.

Now for the Perfect Passages (as the Authour cals his Pamph­let) it is in one particular most seditious and scandalous: viz. this, What may be thought of those that goe about to disparage Lieutenant Generall Cromwell, and the Independent Army that have done so much good in reducing the Kingdome, and brought the Warres so neere to an end? What may be thought of this Questionist? He cals his sheet of Newes Perfect Passages, by the same figure, be­like, that the Furies are called Eumenides, for never did I read such imperfect passages in any printed paper. The Title is, Perfect Pas­sages of each dayes proceedings in Parliament; and the day he be­gins withall is the 19. of November; and he begins that day with a poore piece of Sycophanticall Rhetorick, in praise of the Parlia­ment, and presently passeth from palpable flattery (the shallowest and silliest that ever was bestowed on so profound and prudent a Senate) to pernitious calumnie, in answer to the Question he hath proposed; and thats all he hath for that day; and what is that to the proceedings in Parliament that day? if he had given in that account for some day about the middle of Midsummer moneths, his absurdities had beene more seasonable, more sutable to the tem­per of that Lu [...]atick Quarter, and so it might have beene some ex­cuse, or extenuation of his fault in moving such a f [...]ditious and dan­gerous Question, wherein he seemeth zealous for the honour of Lieutenan [...] Generall Cromwell, and with him magnifieth the Ar­my under the Title of Independent.

Now for Lieutenant Generall Cromwell, I [...], no man that [Page 95]goeth about to disparage him, and I doubt many take occasion to commend him otherwise then his wisdome will approve of; for my part, whether he be an Independent or no, I know not; but if he be, I can be content to give him, and any other of that way, all the praise that is due unto them; and though I much mislike projecting Independents, who idolize their owne fancies, and pretending the publique welfare, care for nothing else, or nothing more then to carry on their owne concernments by the Foxes pate, or Lions paw, by fraud, or force, as either of them may be serviceable to their selfe seeking designe, yet I doubt not but there be many goe under that name, who are rather passive then active in deceit, who truly feare God, and sincerely desire, according to the song of the Angel, That glory may be to God on high, good will towards men, and peace upon earth, Luk. 2.14.

And to speake more particularly of him, I beleeve, (as I have heard of him by those to whom he is well knowne, as they are to me) that he is a wise man, a well advised and valiant Commander, and so good and sincere a Christian, so true a lover of his Countrey, that he would not have the peace of it disturbed, for any difference betwixt Presbyterians and Independents. And upon such pre­mises I dare presume to inferre, that the gallant Lieutenant Ge­nerall will not be well pleased with such a Question, or Answer, as this Novell Catechiser hath set forth; for whatsoever affinitie (or it may be identity) is betwixt him and an Independent, there is no congruitie betwixt the termes Independent and Army in our State; for doth not the Army depend upon the Parliament, who give di­rections, and commands to it for their service? and doe not the chiefe Commanders in it professe themselves to be dispo­sed of onely by the determinations of Parliament? in this respect a man might say, an Independent wife, or an Independent servant, as well as an Independent Army. And if we consider the Army with­in it selfe, is it (as they would have the Church) composed, or made up of Independent Congregations? so that every Captaine and his company are free to attempt, or act, as they can agree a­mong themselves, without subordination to superiour Comman­ders; if so, the Army would not be an Army, that is, an entire and well compacted systeme, or body of souldiers united, and regu­lated by prudence, and authoritie in a graduall series of Martiall [Page 96]command and government, but would breake in pieces into petty parties, as it is upon a rout made by the enemy, and so would be of little use, or force, either for conflict, or conquest, much lesse would it be terrible as an armie with banners should be, and the Church is compared to such an Army, Cant. 6.4.

This onely by the way: But he meanes it perhaps an Indepen­dent Army materially (not formally) as consisting of Comman­ders and common souldiers, addicted to Independencie: If he take Independents as distinguished from the Orthodoxe party on the one side, and from the heterodoxe party of Anabaptists, Brownists, Antinomians, and other such erroneous dogmatists on the other side, (with whom if they be true to the Principles of Religion they cannot finally close in accord against the Presbyte­rians) they are much too few to denominate the Army; and I doubt not but the ingenuous, and consciencious Independents will con­fesse, that there have beene since our wofull warre begunne, and yet are many both skilfull, faithfull, and couragious Commanders, and common souldiers, who have done very great and successefull service towards the finishing of the warre, and yet never came under the name or notion of Independents, unlesse by mistake, or imposture, as this fellow would cousen the Kingdome, and afright the Presbyterians with a conceit of the puissance and prevalence of Independencie in the Army, and by the Army, as if that were the life-blood that maintained the spirits of our Military forces, and made all the souldiers valorous and victorious, and so the Indepen­dent Army as Independent, reduplicative (for so he would have his Reader deluded) had reduced the Kingdome, and brought the warre so neere an end; here an end of his Question.

His Answer is, They, that is, they that goe about to disparage Lieutenant Generall Cromwell, and the Independent Army, are un­christian, and uncharitable, and either very envious, or ill affected; either they know not what that Party have done for us, or else envy that they have done so much: For Lieutenant Generall Cromwell his detractors I know none such, therefore I know none who therein is unchristian, and uncharitable towards him. For your In­dependent Army, it is (as Schollers use to terme such an unsutable conjunction) a Bull, a meere contradiction in adjecto, there is no such thing. It may be if you should passe uncontrould with such [Page 97]absurd inconsistences, we should shortly heare of an Independent Parliament (not because it is the supreme and Independent judi­catory in the Kingdome) but because of the members who favour that way, though they be very few in comparison of those who have voted the Presbytery, an Independent Synod or Assembly, be­cause there are some Independents mingled with many Pres­byterian Divines; and if the Common Councell of the Citie had not generally concurred to petition for Presbyterie, I doubt not but this Nicknaming Newes-maker would, in some of his pa­pers, make London (though already divided into Classicall Presby­teries, and united into a Province) an Independent City.

Last of all he saith, they daily adventure their lives, and many of them have spilt their blood to save our lives, and estates, and i [...]t not [...] hate them for the good they have done, and still doe for us. As ma­ny as have exposed themselves to such perill, and for such a purpose, ashere is specified, God forbid, their zeale, and love, and courage should be answered with envy, or hatred: but here is one fallacie in view, they that are so kind to their brethren as to shed their own blood, that they might sleepe in a whole skinne, did not this as In­dependents, but as Christians, for many lost their lives before ever Independents were dreamed of, it was a rule of Religion, that we ought to lay downe our lives for the brethren, 1 Ioh. 3.16.

And there may be another fallacie lurking under those indefinite expressions, they daily adventure, &c. to save our lives and estates; for it is not true of all, it may be not of most, that those be the mo­tives or ends of their engagements. So much for this Question and Answer: Now I could wish this Questionist were questioned, and that we might know the mind of such as have Authoritie to examine him whether they thought him worthy of Bedlam, foe his witlesse rashnesse, or of Newgate, for his seditious wicked­nesse.