A. SIR I pray you what doe you conceive is indeed their Designe?

B. To make their Nation more learned, and military; more learned, for the saving of soules, because as those who 2 Pet. 2.16. Were undiscipled and unprinci­pled did wrest the things hard to bee understood to their own destruction so doe many even now among us. More military, for the saving of soul [...].

A. But will not the excercise of Armes occasion quarrelling, sedition &c. and so rather kill more than keep more alive?

B. No, for 1. The discipline of warre (strictly) [Page 2]observed preventeth all quarrelling, fewer Duells being fought i [...] camps [...]en in cities and townes.

2 If men doe quarrell, they [...] one another with swords c [...]uos and many things else as well as with any other instruments of warre.

3 But not therewith so well defend them­selves against the invasions of forraigne enemies nor helpe their friends.

A. But by what meanes doe the Trustees endevour to make this a learned Nation?

B. By sending all hopeful poore Schollers now ready unto the Universities, & maintaining them there eithe [...] in part, or in all, as they shall need. And to this purpose the Trustees have appointed a Probationary Colledge here in London, un [...]o which they first bring them, and through which they passe them to the Universities as the Ro­mans did through the Temple of vertue unto the Temple of honour and this they doe.

1 That they might satisfie every one of their (the Trustees) consciences of the said Schollars maturity and ripenesse for the said Universities.

2 For the Schollers proficiencies, for if the said Schollers (notwithstanding certificates from Country Schooles) be not fully ripe, the Trustees mature them for some Months in the Probatio­nary Colledge, least the said Schollers by going raw to the Universities should be discouraged.

3 That the Trustees might have some experi­ence how in the said Colledge these Probationers [Page 3]doe settle to their studies.

4. That the Trustees might provide the said Schollers godly and fit Tutors in the Universi­ties.

A. But will the Trustees admit no men of yeares into their Probationary Colledge.

B. Yes▪ if they b [...]e men of great naturall parts like Apollos mighty in the scriptures and withall, Orthodox, sound in the fai [...]h▪ for they consider the present necessities in which thousands of Con­gregations are: And that such men in a short time spent in Latine, Rethorick, Logic, &c may quickly bee very serviceable in the Church.

A. But will they admit no younger Schollers then such as are ready or almost ripe for the Ʋniver­sities?

B. I conceive that yet they have no reason to to doe so untill all such as bee mature bee first provided for, indeed (if that being done they have more monie they may contribute unto mi­nors, I meane younger Schollers.

A. But whilest the Schollers doe abide in the said Probationary Colledge what shall bee done unto them? or shall they do as you heare and conceive?

B. A few Professors shall instruct them, the Schollers, at certaine houres shall question and answer each others by asking and answering in Latine the questions in our English Catechis­mes citing the Scriptures, brought to prove the answers in Latine troping them and turning them [Page 4]into Sylogismes before their Professors, whereby with the (Lords blessing) the said Schollers will be

• 1. well principled.
• 2. perfect in the sacred Scrip­tures.
• 3. more expert in Rethorick.
• 4. bee excer­cised (at the least somewhat) in Logick.

2. Beside the professors lodging and diet shall­be given to two or more strangers, Schollers up­on condition that they read weekly such lectures of the Artes as they excell in: which the for­raigne Schollers (as it is conceived) will take as a curtesie in England and during their stay in the said Colledge, bee willing to performe, and not lose their faculties in those arts by dis-use.

A. But by what meanes intend the Trustees to raise mony for so vast and expencive a worke?

B. Two wayes. 1. God hath given estates and hearts unto some as unto David 1 Sam. 24.24. and they give grosse summes because they bee able, and will not offer unto the Lord of that which cost them nothing.

2. There are others unable to give grosse sums and yet they are willing to abstain from one meale in a weeke and give the value thereof towards this good worke, that they also (whether Child­ren or Servants in Godly families) might like­wise share in the blessing: which they (as by the motives in a little booke written and in many mens bands) may happily conceive to bee better given unto poore Schollers then unto any other poore whatsoever.

3 So much victualls as is thereby spared the Common-wealth gaineth, and the poore will pay the lesse for victuals, a point very considerable in these dayes, now dearth is so much felt already by some, and feared by others.

A. But by both these meanes if much money come in, though the said Trustees being many and men of knowne integrity, unto those who by their subscriptions make them their Trustees, yet if they give no account but unto themselves, they must expect to bee aspersed as their betters have been,

B. For provision against the scourge of tongues, I understand that the said Trustees have taken this course: Namely to request one faithfull and well affected Common-councelman of every ward in London to come as often as they can, and please, and to sit with them, and to bee eye and eare witnesses how they behave themselves, and if any of these Common-councel men die in their yeare or not chosen the next yeare, that the rest of the six and twenty Common-councell, elect another Common-councell man in his roome, and that these 26 will be pleased to audite the Trustees accompts out of the Trustees own Books once every yeare and declare in open Common coun­cell how they shall find the same accompts.

The like request is made by the Trustees unto twelve Reverend Ministers (in every Classis of the Province of London one) to come as before) and sit with the said Trustees: to examine [Page 6]the said Probationary Schollers maturity for the Universities and to assist the Trustees in providing good Tutors in the Universities for the said Schollers.

A. But divers Aldermen, Ministers, Common coun­cell men, and others have undertaken this worke al­so and therefore the Trustees who you mention that usually sit at Saddlers Hall may doe well to desist since the other, by greater summes of money given them will frustrate this designe, and make it now need­lesse and superfluous,

B. 1 Many monthes before these arose or did appeare in this good work, the Trustees of Sad­lers Hall, were Legally called to bee Trustees by many subscribers both of grosse summes and also of weekly meales, and how can they with a good conscience now give over and not performe that trust, and dispose of those monies according to the same trust?

2 The other combination at the first decla­red their intentions to be only to maintaine such poore Schollers as were already in Universities, & were likely to come from thence for want of maintainance, as appeareth by the first print­ed paper of their project, indeed sithence that time they have made an overture of sending more Schollers also unto the Vniversities.

3 But their annuall subscriptions (which mens Estates must needs feele) may faile as Land­floods, and experience of contributions of that [Page 7]kind after a little while commonly doe.

And should the Trustees at Saddlers Hall (be­fore mentioned) let their trust, and work fall upon the others [...]ssay of so great uncertainty?

A. All this while you have not discovered how you conceive the Trustees will endeavour to make this also a military Nation.

B. I conceive (by what I heare) that since Schollers (especially the hardest students) have need (after their sedentary labors) of bodyly re­creation by way of motion to maintaine them in health, and that no recreations are more excel­lent or honorable then the excercises of Armes for young students, (and for the defence of the Church and Common-wealth they are incom­parably the best) that the Trustees intention is to have the said Schollers to exercise with small Muskets, and Bowes and Pikes, with which Bowes and Pikes, by use ( [...]f need re­quire) they will as easily fight joyntly (as a man taught in a Fence Schoole will) with a sword and a dagger, and is not this a most excel­lent designe? For a single pike man standeth one­ly (as a man condemned by a councell of warre) and is shot to death by the enimies Muskets and is of no other use (in one battle of an hundered) then to keep of the Horse: whereas with his pike and bow hee may not only doe that service but father off than the Musket can reach, wound the enemies in all their ranckes both of horse and [Page 8]foote with his barbed Arrows, which are farre worse then any bullets, and that in many respects as might bee shewed, and the most expert war­riers of our time acknowledge and doe now be­gin to practise.

A. But I heare (how true I know not) that the said Trustees intend, to passe [...] their Schollers from their Probationary Colledge with more popular so­lemnity then many that are wise and well affected think meet: if they intend to doe so, what doe you conceive may bee the reasons moving them thereunto?

B. Truly if they shall doe so, I dare not con­demn them for indiscresion.

1 Because of the Old Adage honos alit artes, honour nourisheth or advanceth Arts.

2 The multitude is moved unto benificence, by sence, as well as by solid reason, yea, much more.

3 The wisest nations in all ages, have advan­ced the publique good with costlesse honours. The Grecians and Romans by Laureating Learn­ed men and Conquerours. And our degrees in Schooles at this day are of the same nature.

4 To honour learning (at this day so much decried) seemeth not superfluous.

5 Paul observing the prevalency of earthly honours, to make men strive to excel others by arguments from the least to the greater, urgeth us to strive for heaven by honour and glory 1 Cor. 9.24. &c. 1 Thess. 2, 19. 2 Tim. 2, 5, and 4, 8.

6 If honours bee given in London for learning, and the report thereof carried by every carrier into every Country, may not this probably make many Schoolmasters and Schollers ambitious to excell others in teaching and learning: yea and parents to send their Sonnes to Schooles, and by that meanes much advance both Arts and Armes?

A. Only one question more and I have done,

Rumors, and somewhat written and printed inti­mating an intention to found an Ʋniversity here in London makes many not only in the Ʋniversities but others that have been of other Ʋniversities affraid of the Trustees declining those Ʋniversities ancient honours, by such a new erection? and this I feare may doe hurt.

B. I have perused the bookes you mention and conferred with some of the said Trustees, and truly I am nescious or else there is no cause of any such feare. For,

First, I find the said Trustees (especially such of them as have been of either of our Univer­sities) for the doctrine which they have attained unto in those Universities, as desirous as any at this day in the said Universities to preserve the dignity of the Universities: therefore they will not do ought that tendeth to the detriment of ei­ther of them.

Secondly, I doe not see that by this Essay they can possible hurt them if they would, but [Page 10]very probable it is that happily they may helpe them by this meanes.

For either they will not be able to, found an Universitie here in London or else they will bee able?

If they attempt it, and doe somewhat yet faile to effect it fully, then all that they shall doe will but advance the Universities as the e­rection of Schooles doe in all parts of the King­dome, and untill an University bee here com­pleated, London (all the m [...]ane while) shall more and more replenish Cambridge and Oxford both.

And therefore whereas others would not have an Universitie in London to bee mentioned un­till Cambridge and Oxford were full: I cry out, hoyst up a new University (towards which here in London people will sooner give pounds then shillings to fill Cambridge and Oxford) and should this money be refused and lost, which is offered unto Christ by men and women yearely living and dying especially of the attempting to erect a new University, will soonest of all other meanes replenish Cambridge and Oxford.

Whilest any man is building a Colledge is he not also providing of Schollers to put into it? and doth not that fill other Schooles and Colledges.

For a man buyeth plants first in the Market and then planteth them in a Nursery, and after, when they are more growne bringeth them into his Garden or Orchard.

Thus Nurseries furnish Orchards, and Orch­ards Nurseries: and new Universities furnish old Universities with young Schollers, and old Universities furnish new Universities with elder Schollers: This is evidently seen in the new Col­ledges which have been built in Cambridge or Oxford, that the new have not emptied but ra­ther filled the old.

And so would a new University, our old U­niversities suppose that Northampton shire men or one Citizen borne in that County would build a faire house to make Colledge of and either call it the Northamptonshire-Colledge, or after his owne name: sure he would either be prompt­ed by his owne providence, or some would put it into his mind how he should fill it with Schol­lers, and bid him write into Northamtonshire, unto poore people to send their Sons to Schoole and he would give them schollerships in that Col­ledge, and if others would but maintaine their Sonnes a little while at Cambridge or Oxford, he would give them followships: would not this do somewhat towards the filling both of Country Schooles and also of the Universities presently: and if more Countries or men did the like would it not doe much more? But say that in the end London should growe to be an University, then would it not decline Cambridge or Oxford?

1 I answer no, for by such time as London is [Page 12]grown to be an University; Cambridge and Oxford will be full.

2 Even then when they are filled there will not be Schollers enow, for there is not Colledge roome in them both, either to furnish us with a Ministery numerous enough for all our occasions; or, if we were (as the bookes mentioned prove) now fully stocked with such a ministery, bee able to maintaine that stock.

3 New Colledges built by the Jesuites doe not empty the old Colledges, nor among the Papists make the old Colledges (or order of the Jesuites) to be lesse esteemed.

4 The more Colledges there shall be founded in Cambridge or Oxford the more honours will accrue unto those Universities so long as there is imployment for those Schollers, and the more Universities bee founded in England, the more will it make for Englands honour so long as Eng­land shall have use of all those Schollers, as in­deed at this day England hath of as many more, as Cambridge and Oxford now have, can hold, or possibly send forth.

5 When new Colledges are built in the U­niversities the rest of the Colledges are well pleased that those new Colledges are built: and why should not both our Universities bee as well pleased that a new Universitie should be founded elsewhere in England, as a new Colledge [Page 13]in either of their Vniversities? For whatsoever can bee alleadged against the founding of a new Vniversitie in England, may as well and better be al­leadged against the build­ing of so many new Colledges in our old Universities.