Fourthly, Because the Primitive Saints, who had a Primitive spirit (which we pray for, and are in dayly expectation of) spake boldly in the name of the Lord, Jam. 5. and the 10. and so must we to you, in the plainnesse, foolishnesse and simplicity of the Gospel, without any Politick, studied, or artificial frame of words or expressions after the wisdome of the world, or the Princes of the world, 1 Cor. 2.6.8, 2 Cor. 2.17. therefore it is, we dare not give flattering titles to any man (whose breath is in his nostrils) Job 32.21, 22. nor come we to make our petition to man (but to God we do) in these matters of our Faith and Consciences, Nota. for which we contend this day, and for which our dear Brethren are cruel­ly imprisoned at Lambeth (meaning our Brother Rogers) and Wind­sor (meaning Mr. Feak.)

1. Wherefore in the name of our Lord Jesus, and of that whole So­ciety, who have intrusted us on this errand, we are to DEMAND the Lords prisoners, those prisoners of hope at Lambeth and Windsor, as due to Christ and his Churches, whom ye have so un­christianly rent and torn from us, (we meaning the Churches) and neither we nor they know for what to this day, but we are perswaded, The Testi­mony. In the pri­son Mr. Feak, Mr. Rogers Mr. Spitle-house. Col. Over­ton Col. Al­lured. Adj. Gen. Allen. with many others it is for their Faith and Conscience in the truth and Te­stimony of Jesus Christ, against the foul Apostacies and sins of the times in professours, whether in Powers, Priests, Armies or others, that have cast off the true Cause and Interest of Christ, and have ta­ken up the Creatures instead thereof, which can never stand. This demand we make according to Isa 42.22.2 Chron. 28.11.

2. And lastly, (though we never yet did it in publick, yet) so long as you go on thus, we dare not but joyn with our* suffer­ing Brethren ( viz. in what prisons soever) for their Consciences, and this Cause of Christ, and declare and testifie against you (and the rest; that adhere unto you, whether in Power or out) so long as you are the Enemies of Christ and his Cause at this day, [Page 3]which we must do with the words of truth and sobriety; Since that M. Gen. Harrison, Col. Court­ney, Col. Rich. M. Chary, imprisoned the 16 day of this Mo­neth, besides all in other contries, and Scot­land those there that are like to lose their lives by bloody Tri­als, all these with many others suffering at this day for & with the Testimony of a good con­science a­gainst men that have betrayed the cause of Christ: Others have been imprisoned, as Mr. Va­vasor Pow­el, Mr. Jo. Simson, Col. Okey, &c. for the Lord will rend you, and all up by the Roots, that are not plants of his own planting, and the great God will appear (ere long) to confound and destroy this spirit of persecution, injustice and Ty­ranny, which the poore (Non-Conforming) Saints feel so sorely, and we pray you consider that of Asa, 2 Chron. 16. though a good man, and a great General, and Conquerour, when once he forsook the Lord, relied on an arm of Flesh, and began to im­prison the Lords Prophet, the hand of God was against him, (and so on others) and so will his wrath be upon you, and those that belong to you, if you go on thus, and if God give you not a true and timely repentance of these great sins which cry (day and night) for vengeance against you, and yours, and so do thousands of the poore persecuted Saints (however you are made to believe) therefore we pray you see (if you will yet keep the Captives of the Lord) Jer. 50 33, but mark it v. 34. so Isa. 29.20.21. Psal. 102.17, 20, 21. Psal. 37.32, 33.34. Psal. 79.11. and saith Christ, What you did unto these, you did unto me, and Acts 9. Saul, Saul, why per­secutest thou me; so fee in Matth. 18.28, 30, 34. see v. 35. Isa. 49, 24, 25. Mal. 2.11, 12. Now to conclude, the day of Christ is at hand, which will set them free, and will (ere long) call you, and all about you to Judgment, for all these things that you have done, and suffered to be done against the Lord Jesus and all his Saints, and for all the blood of the Saints that hath been shed against this Interest, and these evil things, which you have set up again, to the Joy of the wicked, the grief of the godly, and reproach of pure Religion and undefiled; This is the summe of our Message, which we are sent to deliver to you in the name of the Lord, and whe­ther you will hear, or whether you will forbear, we leave it with you, and to your conscience, before God the Righteous Judge of heaven, and earth.

After long waiting, they obtained accesse, and all Twelve be­ing present together, one, (as the mouth of them) delivered the message, but the word DEMAND would not go down wel, but the Lord Cromwel told them, that Mr. Feak and Mr. Rogers suffer­ed not for conscience, but as evil-doers and busie bodies in other mens matters. One of the Twelve then said, if so, why were they not tryed by some known and just law, and convicted for evil doers, but [Page 4]to keep them there in so long and cruell Imprisonment, without shewing cause, was contrary to Gods law, and the just laws of men, besides, they were sick, and weakly men; but he said he would put it to an Issue upon Friday or Tuesday (as he said) Mr. Rogers should be brought before him: On the sixth day of this twelfth Moneth, being the third day of the week, the Bre­thren and sisters (many of them) of the Society met together, (and with much difficulty) got into the prison to pray with Mr. Rogers, which they continued till between three and four of the clock, and then they were called away by the Gaoler to go to White-Hall, according to his Lord Protectors Order; so that in the name of (another) the Lord Protectour of heaven and earth, the great Jehovah (whose face they had so solemnly and so often sought for his presence with them) Mr. Rogers set out of Lambeth, along with Harding his Keeper, Febr. 6. last 1654. and the rest from the Church-society (twenty Brethren being the most) going along with him, much rejoycing as they went (according to Acts 5.41.) that they were so honoured to be called before men, for the Name, Faith, and Cause of Jesus, and when they came to Whitehall Bridge, others of the dear Saints of several Churches, waiting with tears and prayers, and acclamations, partly of joy, and partly of grief to receive him, and with an unamimous Suffrage, and signal tokens of love to him, and to this blessed Cause he suffers in, they prayed the Lords presence to accompany him; so we passed by, and Mr. Rogers was by his Keeper carried into the Chamber hard by the Councel Chamber, but the Keeper onely had admittance into the long Gallery, to give notice, that the Prisoner was there, but by and by he came out again, and told Mr. Rogers and his friends, that they must all go down again, and go through the Guard chamber, but Mr. Rogers answered that was strange, be­ing come so near, where the Great Man was, they must now go down to go through the Guard Chamber, and about again, but the Keeper answered, they must do it, he had order for it, which he did, not in the least resisting, but the main end was as they found afterwards, to try whether they were sword-proof or no: So by force, Mr. Rogers and his friends were carried the other way, back again through the Guard-Chamber, many o­ther people flocked about them, the Keeeper going foremost, Mr. [Page 5] Rogers (and his wife next to him) and his friends following close after him, untill they came up to the Guard Chamber­doore, immediately was the word of Command given to the Guard, who assoon as they saw them and us coming in, fell foul­ly upon us with their swords, and their Halberds, saying, The harsh usage of the poore, per­secuted fisth Monarchy-men. Keep back, Keep back, to which Mr. Rogers answered with all his heart he would go back, (but his Keeper would not let him) we al­so said, if they would give us liberty we would go back as fast as we could, but they wruld not hear us, but fell upon us with a word and a blow, slashing and striking in a most violent manner, calling us Rogues, damned Rogues, and evacuating the most ve­nomous words in their bellies, &c. but we told them, not one of us had a weapon, but the Bible, (in their hands some had) and so we told them, but some said, the sword of the Spirit would be too hard for them one day, which occasioned them to be the more vio­lent, who struck (to choose) at their Bibles, hands, and heads, and so followed them, sighting, slashing and beating the poore, naked Christians all the way into the Court again, and there laying about them too, and saying they cared not for their Bi­bles, still inculcating, insulting, and calling us damned Rogues, and cursed dogs, and the like, but Mr. Rogers, and two or three more were shut in among their swords, whiles the rest of the brethren were kept without in the Court, and did with very much patience bear all their railings, reproachings scoffs, scorns, flouts, jeers and injuries, offered them all the while by the Souldiers, and others of the Court-creatures, in the mean time Mr. Rogers, with two or three more, were brought into the Chamber of Henry the eighth, where were many Gentle­men of the Court complexion; some excusing the aforesaid vio­lence and assault, saying it was by accident, to which he an­swered, he conceived it not, but that it was rather a plot, and for ought he knew, there might be a designe to murder some or other, for the word was given to fall on, and it is conceived by most, that they did it on purpose to raise us to a mutiny, that so they might have had (at least in appearance or pretence) some (or a more) Just Cause against Mr. Rogers and his friends in Church fellowship with him, for the Guardians confesse they did but as they were commanded. Whilest some were excusing this af­front [Page 6]put upon Christ and his persecuted Churches, others said it was good enough for us, and it was pity we were not worse used than we were, Mr. Rogers in the interim was talking with others, and two of the Guard told him how sorry they were their fellows were so rough, and drew their swords, slashing so fiercely, and what a mercy it was, no more mischief was done, seeing they had the command given them to do what they did, and that it was the readinesse of some amongst them against us, especially the outlandish.—There was a short discourse between Mr. Rogers and some others.

Why did you come up there?

We were sent for, and commanded to come; yea, brought by force upon you, Nota. and by your Masters Command, who fell a slashing us with your swords, so that it is probable, it was a Design against us on purpose; else why should peaceable men, that had no kind of weapons in their hands (or about them) with­out sword or stuffe, but onely the Bibles with us poore naked men, and women be forced (by Order and command to come before your Master) and be thus abused, affronted, slashed and driven into dangers, but the Lord is righteous who will judge!

But why came you with so many?

We were sent for and commanded, and those that came are Christians, and Church-members, no wayes uncivil or disor­ [...]drly.

Well, its well it was no worse!

It was the Lord that made it so, For so it was to to the late King and his court when his Messengers, and Guard­men fell upon the Ci­tizens with their swords at the gate, there was his blood shed. in whose name we came, and he hath delivered us from your Fury, and the rage of the sword, for they struck with rage, fury and high purpose, to do more mischief than they did, but it is Heb. 11. By faith they ob­tained promises, escaped the edge of the sword, &c. and so-have we esca­ped Yours. (though some do bear the mark, but the Lord Jesus will reward them when he comes.)

And you see Gentlemen, your sword cuts bluntly, and doth little execution upon the poove fifth Monarchy men, though they be but naked, and unarmed, and it may be, this businesse will be ominous to you in this place.

We wonder to see so many women, and what they meant.

And are ye so fearfull? It may be, it is true then what we hear, that the barking of a dog lately (running about the yard) gave you a very great alarm, seeing the sight of a few women hath frighted you so pitifully, as to draw your swords upon them and hurt them: alas poor hearts! you are pitifully affrighted it seems! what would you have done then at the sight of weapons, if a few white aprons makes you flie to your swords and Halberds;

but by and by came a Gentleman Messenger to Mr. Rogers, saying, that his Lord was at leasure to speak with him, but the Keeper at the doore suffered none to go in with him, save whom they listed. One of the Twelve that was sent for, going in with Mr. Rogers, a Guard-man standing by, took him by the shoulders in a very Hostile manner, and tore his cleak off his back, and abused him, but Mr. Rogers, and three or four more, went into the Chamber where their Great Master was, to whom some of his Court-Sycophants had told such tales, as they used to do, to justifie themselves, and complained first, which is the Machiavillian Poli­cy, and Principle, as if we had intended a tumult, which was a thing our souls abhorred, and a most impudent untruth, for there was not one had a weapon or staffe with them, or spake one un­civil word; but after Mr. Rogers, with three or four more were brought into the Room by Serjeant Dendy, the Great man had with him two Gentlemen more, who stood by the fire-side, and a Pistol lay prepared at the Window, where he himself at first was, then he came to the fire-side in great Majesty, without moving or shewing the least civility of a man, though all stood bare to him, and gave respect; by and by he spake, and bid one call in two or three more of the Church-Saciety, or of the Twelve that had been with him before, when the DEMAND was made; whiles they were gone for them, saith he,

I sent for some of you; Mr. Rogers and some more of the Church, but you bring with you about 250 men to make tumults and risings; therefore send them away, or I will not speak one word,

to which Mr. Rogers answered, and to give him a civil respect, said my Lord,

You are ruled much by informations which you take upon the reports of them about you, whether true or fulse, which brings the Lords people into so much trouble by you, but there is no such matter.

Hi! You will talk I see, although it be nothing to pur­pose, who speaks to you! with that he turns to one of his Crea­tures, saying, What say you, is there not so many?

Servant, His Servant answered yes, and it please your Highnesse, there's above 100. below, and it is to be feared, they might have made a Tumult.

If they must be believed, they must, yet this I may say, I think there are not thirty men that belong to us, and besides, they are all peaceable Christians, related to us in the Faith of the Gospel, all unarmed, apprehending your order and command to reach them, and they are onely those with us, as have been this day together, seeking the face of the Lord, and now accord­ing to your Order at four a clock attending here.

But by this time Company was coming in apace into the room, The Room fills with the Cour­tiers. at both doores, but all were Court-Creatures, to the number of fourscore or more (as we conceive) either of the Councel, Ar­my men, Lawyers and Counsellours, or of his Creatures that were his Ministers, or new made Gentlemen, or the like, but not one of them related to Mr. Rogers, or that Church-Society, till at last with much adoe, two or three more were crowded in of them, but all the rest were left waiting below in the Yard, abused, scoffed, his­sed and whooted at by some of the Souldiers, as will appear by and by.

I promised to send for you, He begins his long Speech with manifest re­proaching, and mani­fold un­truths. for some of your friends came and spake sharply to me, as it I had Apostated from the cause of Christ, and persecuting godly Ministers, naming Mr. Rogers, and Mr. Feak, and spake other things that were sharp enough, you might have had patience in your words.

Now you have liberty to speak to those things, but do not a­buse your liberty, you told me Mr. R. suffered son the Gospel, I told you he suffered as a Railer, s a Seducer, and a Busie Body in o­ther mens matters, and a stirrer up of sedition, which Rulers (led by just principles) might suppress, I told you Mr. Rogers suffer­ed justly, and not for the Testimony of Jesus Christ, and indeed in some degree it is Blasphemy, to call suffering for evil do­ing, suffering for the Gospel, and if he suffers for Reailing, and de­spising those that God hath set over us, to say this his suffering [...] for the Gospel, is making Christ the Patron of such things, but [Page 9]if it were suffering for the Gospel, something might have been said, yet not so much, as saying uncharitably, he suffered for evil-doing, so that I say, this is the thing in Scripture, and if we shew you, that you suffer for transgression, then you abuse that Scripture which I have often thought on, that it is to make a man an offendor for a word: I wish it were better understood in the plain­nesse of the spirit, for to interpret that Scripture, it was the evil of those times, And is it not the evil of these Times? so that he is condemned out of his own mouth, as in Luk. 19.22. which was to he in wait for words on purpose to catch at words without actions, and that is a finne, but some words are actions, and words are conjugall with actions, for actions and words are as sharp as swords, and such things I charge you with, and you suffer not for the testimony of Jesus Christ; I speak, God is my witnesse, I know it that no man in England, does suf­fer for the Testimony of Jesus It seems when he said so, be called God to witnesse, M. Rogers tiffed up his hand and his eyes, ap­pealing to witnesse al­so, at which Posture he was offend­ed. nay do not lift up your hands and your eyes, for there is no man in England which suffers so; there are those that are far better than Mr. Rogers, though compari­sons are not good, and not near his principles, yet if they should suffer for the Testimony of Jesus: But there is such Liberty, I wish it be not abused, that no man in England suffereth for Christ, and it is not your Fancy, you must bring strong words to acquaint me of your sharp expressions.

After he had spake, and all were silent, Mr. Rogers desired to know of him whom he expected to reply, whether himself or some other, the answer to, who would.

Do you expect me to answer, I will promise this be­fore I speak further, I have been twenty seven weeks a prisoner, my (brother Feak above a year) and there hath been no Charge against me; but now I am brought before you, I desire to know in what capacity I stand before you, as a Prisoner, or as a Free­man, as a Christian to a Christian with equall Freedome that o­thers have, or as a slave.

A Prisoner is a Free man, as Christ hath made you free, and so you are a Free man.

Its true indeed (my Lord) and yet I must say, as some Gentlemen here present know I did before I was imprisoned) and when they would have had me meet in Colemanstreet to dis­course our Principles, upon which we suffer) that it is unreaso­nable to desire it at the disadvantages we meet with, seeing they [Page 10]who are our Antagonists have the advantage of a Law new made, Mr Rogers told him, that Ordi­nance ma­king Trea­son for words was such us Q. Mary her self (as bloody as she was) would ab­hor, as ap­pears in Hollinshed in the 1. year of her reign, which made their Tyranny worse than the Roman Tyranny. which they call an Ordinance of Treason, (to lash us with) as a Master hath his rod in his hand over-awing his School-boyes, so that it is a very unjust and unequall thing, that they should speak as Free men, and we as slaves, under an over-awing: but if that Law be repealed, though but pro tempore, during such debates, and we be restored to our just and equal liberty with the Adver­saries, so as to engage on even ground, we are ready to argue it with them, when and where they will, but till then it is unrea­sonable, for every word we speak, may be a snare to us.

I know not what snare may be in this— Are you so afraid of Snares? what need you fear, that will speak so boldly?

I blesse the Lord, I fear them not, nor the force of any men or Devils in these matters of my Faith and Conscience, for which I suffer, yet I should be loath to run into Snares, which Disputes have been to the people of God; for Stephen Acts 6. be­fore he was tryed for his life, he was first ensnared by Disputes, and then brought to the Councel, tryed and arraigned for his life, and they murthered and destroyed him: and in Queen Maries dayes, before they put any to death, they begun it cunningly with ensnaring discourses in the Convocation-house, and so gather­ed matter to take their lives away, and murther them.

You are afraid of Snares and advantages taken for your life, when there is no such thing, but I tell you upon your Friends Petition I sent for you to saisfie them, that you suffer, as an evil-doer.

Say you so (my Lord) that is more than ever I heard before, nor dare I take this liberty upon that account of Petitioning, for it, but that I believe the Lord will help me by his own Spirit to answer, as indeed I have not studied a Form of words for you, though you have prepared Matter That they seemed to do all this in justice, and by ap­peal and free Courts. At this they were next and look on one another. against me (I hear) but I am in the strongth of the anointing) ready to answer. O. was troubled at that word, and said Preparation ha! what? but it is well known what for several dayes were the Informations (some lay on the Table) a gathering against him, and the prisoners (put in for plotting) had by one Measie a Charge to get all their papers reade upon the 30. day of the 11. month last, who were very busie to get them, and are we bear a gathering more; for when Mr. Rogers is forced to preach out at the Window to the Members of the Church, and those that come to bear him, these wicked and bloody beast-like men, have liberty to come in­to a room under him to write what they can catch or forge, or patch together, though all the week long they are in an other room, at the further end of the house day and night singing, swear­ing, ranting, drinking, fidling, blaspheming day and night, to go out in the night, yea without a Keeper, to carry on the designe.

Ab we know you are ready enough.

Yea, although I have made no other preparation, than Faith in the promises (however some may scoffe at them) yet I have (I blesse the Lord) the comfort of them, and hope I shall have the benefit of that promise, (which I have the Seal of in my heart) in Mat. 10. Take no care what to say, for in that houre, shall it be given unto you; therefore I doubt not, but to speak to you and them about you, in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the demonstration of his holy Spirit. [be was inter­rupted.]

Take head you do not abuse the Scripture, if you be such a Dis­ciple, then that promise shall be made good unto you, and then you may say, you suffer for Christ.

I doubt not but that will appear, that I am his Disciple, who made me that promise, and if we be not able to make it out to unbyassed man, that we suffer for Christ and a good consci­ence sake, by Gods holy word, then chop off my h [...]ad: but in­deed (my Lord) we can clear it to all the World, would they hear us, and not handle us so roughly as you do, for we have had a very dangerous passage to you, this day, an ardua via through Swords and Halberds.

Indeed? sayes he ( [...] a scoffe) and I pray who was wounded?

It was a mercy there were no more hurt, though many were bruised, beaten and hurt, and among others my Wife, but who the rest be, (as yet I know not.)

No so I think! but I have no time to dispute those things.

Why then, I say, as I said before, my way must be clear, before I can proceed further, for if they petitioned I have done, and dare not answer a word on that ground, because I represent thousands of the poore Saints, who are one with me in this cause, whose Trust I cannot, I dare not betray.

Then we have done;—for I tell you, you came here by adesire, I told them I would put it to the issue this meeting, and that I would prove it you suffered for evil-doing.

That will not be so easily done, But (my Lord) I speak as I hope, I am a civil man, and in some measure a rational man, and [Page 12]I trust through grace, I am a Christian, nor doth Christianity de­stroy civility, and yet I must say again that I care hither by the Desire or Request of my friends. I shall not, I will not speak a word any farther, than to tell you my reasons; For I would not have any friend petition for me, where in and to whom I can­not with a good conscience petition for my self, now in the mat­ters of faith and truth for which we suffer) we cannot petition to you, for we are not Debtors to man, but to God, who is the Law giver, and only proper judge therein, and therefore we petition to the Lord Jehovah our Judge, then 2. If they did so, they did not answer the trust, the Church, whereto they are related, reposed in them; for it was set upon their hearts as an incumbent point of duty to Christ and his Churches to make Demand of the Lords prisoners in the name of the Lord Jesus, whom you and your pow­ers have so unchristianly, and indeed with worse than Roman Tyran­ny rent and torn from the Churches, so that if they made a petition to you, I am silent, and shall say no more, as I said before.

(One of the Twelve) I shall lay open the whole state of the businesse, for we are intrusted with a Message from our Society, and did but according to our trust, make the Demand, and bear our Testimony, and made no request at all to you, but when you said, our Brother Rogers suffered as an evil-doer, we said then, why do you not make it appear, and you said, you would on Friday or Tuesday, and this was all.

Well! Who sayes it is more? who sayes you Petitioned? I told you he suffered as an evill doer, as a Railer, as a Seducer.

But your words are not proofs, my Lord! but yet seeing my way is more clear now, I shall say somewhat more: there is no law of God nor yet of man, that makes me such an Offender: But yours which is worse than the Roman Law and Tyranny, that makes a man a See their Ordinance for Treason. Traitor for words.

Who cals you a Traitor? I call you not: see, I believe you speak many things according to the Gospel; but you suffer for evil-doing.

The Gospel of the Kingdome may occasionable be so ac­counted and judged, for as Christ our Saviour saith, I came not to send peace but the sword, the doctrine of Christ by the powers of the world hath ever been reputed, sedition, railing, lying and speaking evill of dignities.

I grieve that you call this the gospel, for every one is ready to come and say, this is the gospel, with words in their mouths; and say, this is the meaning of the Scripture; but there wants the power of godli­nesse: for Christ and his Disciples will not speak evill of no man.

Yea, they did speak against sinners as sinners, which is no evill speaking: But who made you the Judge of the Scriptures (my bord?) what ever you say it shall never appear (I trust) to the Saints, or unbyased discerning men, that I suffer as an evill doer, what ever you say, or suppose; I can make it appear, it is an essential, Fundamental Principle of Faith, which is now under Persecution, What the testimony is they suffer in. and for which we suffer, viz. The Kingly Office of Christ, and those that deny that truth (for, & in which we suffer) are indeed Here­ticks (and not we:) It is true, this present testimony, for Christs Kingly Interest hath two parts, viz. The Positive and the Priva­tive; now for the last it is we suffer, and not for evil-doing.

Why, who will hinder you Preaching the Gospel of Christ? yea, How knows be that, for he hears him not preach? his Personal Raign? who will hinder? you speak of high Nations, but you do not preach the gospel to build up souls in Christ.

I know my Lord, that you are a Sophister, With that the Officers and them present scof­fed & some gnashed with their teeth at the Prisoner. and so it seems for a part of the truth, we may preach, but not the whole, not the Gospel of the kingdom preached for a Witnesse, as Mat. 24.14. to witnesse against the crying sins of men in power, or out of pow­er; for that seems to strike at your Interest too much.

Why, what interest is mine?

A worldly interest which God will destroy.

Ha!— and do you judge me?

Yea, by the word of the Lord in the maj [...]sty, might, strength, power, vigour, life and Authority of the Holy Ghost, I can do, and dare. Judge you and your actions, 1 Cor. 2. The spiritual man jugdeth all things, whilest he himself is judged of no man; Besides, I am called by the Holy Ghost, which hath appointed me to preach the Go­spel to judge sins.

And who will hinder you to preach the Gospel, or to do so? speak against Sin as much as you will.

You do from preaching that part of the Gospel which de­cries the publike sins of the times or of men in Powers, Armies, &c. neither is it as you say, a rayling, lying, or speaking evill of dig­nities; for the word rayling in Jude 9. is [...], now this is [Page 14]no blasphemy to speak the truth or against evils, nor is it railing to call a man as he is, to call a drunkard, a drunkard, is no rayling; to call a Whore-master, What sort of informers will serve against 5 ^th Monarchy-men. a Whore-master, is no rayling; to call a Thief, a Thief, to call an Apostate, an Apostate, is no rayling; but to call one so, that is not so is rayling.

To call an honest man a thief is rayling, to call an honest man a Whore-master is rayling; though I do know you have truths of Christ in you, yet I will prove you suffer for rayling, lying, and as a rai­ser of sedition; and I told them that I would have you sent He said there was no such word in his Speech, but see it p. 13. It is some satis­faction, if a Common­wealth must perish that it pe­rish by men and not by the hands of persons, (speaking of the plot­ters) differ­ing little from beasts. for, to sa­tisfie them.

If that you say, can be made to appear, it is fit I should suffer; but as Reygnold said, Nihil est quin male interpretando possit de­pravari.

This will appear in the Informations that are upon the Table there, what a rayler you are; and therefore let them be read (sayes he to some by him) for there be many of them, the Witnesses and the Evidences all are ready, it will appeare easily, and out of the Prison such Informati­ons, Evidences there are brought in, let them be read.

Your Informations will not make it appear (ere the more) to just men: I looked to have had a fair tryal or a Christian debate; But this is otherwise, seeing men that are hired or any other wayes basely suborned do inform against me: as for them out of Prison, it is a signe that your cause is not very good, that needs such Informers; as the Prisoners at Lambeth, they are such as you your self have put in for plotting against you, left they should cut your Throat, and of whom you (your self) have said in your last Speech, that they differed little from Beasts, Meaning, now ano­ther Paper of informa­tions of what was preached at Thomas A­postles, that also lay up­on the Ta­ble with the other out of Lam­beth-prison At whose confidence Mr, Rogers with admi­ration lift­ed up his eys & hands and yet you can take their Informations against me, yea, drunkards, swearers, whoremongers, Cavaliers, Ranters, any men that make nothing to lye, swear, drink, curse and banne, whore and blaspheme, day and night, and what not? and yet these must inform against me to take away my Life, these are but bad Evidences (my Lord) and besides, were they honest men, it were illegal.

Nay they are honest, godly men that mourn over you, and that are troubled for you, that will witnesse these things against you.

I hardly believe honest men will accept of such an office, to inform against the poor people of God, and to seek the blood of any one of Christs little ones, but I rather believe, they are some of your [...]

[Page 17] hired men, who seek for any stuffe to gratifie your Ears; But might I but stand on even ground with equal freedome, I would undertake to any unbiassed Christian to make it appear that the subject mat­ter of our suffering for the truth and testimony of Jesus (our in­firmities excepted, which the Lord knows are many) and there­fore we must overcome by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of the Testimony, Rev. 12.

Nay, but I know you well enough, I know you, and what your princi­ple is too, I know you that you never preached the Covenant of Grace, yea, I know it, I have had some discourse with you formerly, I know you are ignorant of the Covenant This being spoken in such confu­sion of o­thers, & the Great mans heat toge­ther, he was hardly heard but onely of them who stood nigh and wrote. One of his Courtiers made an­swer, but he went on in his heat. nay for all your lifting up your eyes, it is so.

That is strange you should judge so; my condition were uncomfortable then indeed, if I did not know the Covenant of grace, yea, fruition, whiles it may be some, have a National discipli­nary or barely intuitive knowledge, there be many can testifie whe­ther I am so ignorant or no of the Covenant (of Christ) who have been my hearers long ago, it is for a branch, yea a principal branch of the New Testament-Covenant, that we are persecuted as Acts 2.30. viz. that part that God hath sworn unto, to exalt Christ over all his enemies, and to make him King over al Nations; this Covenant of the Father to the Son, makes us grapple with the Beast, and contest so as we do with the Powers of the world, though others are igno­rant of the Covenant.

Nay I tell you I know you well enough, and I know your principles though you are but a young man, yet you have been in many places, and are known well enough.

Yea, I am so I hope, known of Christ too, and amongst o­ther places, I have been in the Field too against the common enemies, (that are now gotten so high again) where (I think) I have done more for nothing, in meere conscience for the Lord Christs sake, (never seeking wages, as your mercenary men) than any of your Colonels can say. Raising men, arming himself and others, inga­ging in the field in Eng­land and Ireland spending his estate, Kil­ling his cat­tel, for the Army freely exposing his person to great dangers freely.

You talk of that is nothing to the purpose.

I cannot see my Lord, there will be any danger to have those papers read, we desired to hear how it appears that Mr. Ro. suffers as an Evil doer, and if it please your Highnesse, let those in­formations be read, that are brought in there, that we may hear how it appears as your Highnesse sayes.

Ah! so I say, let them be read.

My Lord, Which Gen­tleman was Mr. Kiffen, who since with some of his Mem­bers) hath slandered him behind his back. that Gentleman spake very smoothly, but we know now by experience, the greatest Snares are couched under the smoo­thest words; so there is a great Snares in his for he desires them to be read, that they may judge therby whether I be an Evil-doer or not; so that I thank the Gentleman for his charity, he seems beforehand resolved to judge me according to them, whther right or wrong, true or false, or whatever they be, and whoever informs, and whether they can be proved or no against me, but I perceive by him he is some mercenary man, that hath some dependence upon you, and from such I look for no other: But the most (my Lord) that can be said against me, is but an evil- speaker (which by Gods assistance I trust in this matter, shall never be proved a­gainst me neither) and not an Evil doer, for not withstanding your former words, I can prove that the very heathens themselves abhorred to make words matter of fact as you do.

It is matter of fact you are questioned for, Mark it out of his own mouth. for speaking evil of Authority, raising false accusations; or if they were as Nero, you are not to speak evil of them, for what hath the Devil his Name for, but because he is an accuser of the Brethren, and it is not for your good deeds that you are punished, for what saith Christ, for which of my good deeds do you punish me, and so you say, but you shall hear if these be read, whether it be for your good deeds, or for evil-doing.

And as they answered Christ then, so do you us, it was not for his good deeds they would stone him, but for his blasphemy, and so pretended to do it legally, for the Law would have a blas­phemer stoned, but that which they called blasphemy was indeed the truth, and good, and so it is now, what you call evil is good and the Devil (my Lord) hath his name from calumniating, slandering and lying, and accusing the good So that the accusers of she good and grace of God is on that side by the informers and perse­cutors. or grace of God, but not for ac­cusing evil, or declaring against sin, the evils of Apostacy, persecuti­on or the like, but if you will read the Articles you may, yet ex­pect not a word of answer from me, unlesse it be in an open and legal Court, before a competent and fit Judge, which you are not (my Lord) nor those about you, but those things which are my due Right) granted I am ready to answer them in Westminster-Hall, (where I believe the Lords remnant who are one with me in this caus will stand by me) and at last you can have but a poor carcasse(that [Page 19]is every day dying) yet I am resolved (with the help of God) not to throw a way my life, nor to betray this blessed cause, so as to an­swer to I know not what Spurious and forged informations, or charge in a Chamber, (grounded on malice, or that which is worse) nor will I be tried in Hugger-mugger, but if I have offended, it is fit I should have open Justice.

Who tries you? and who sayes it is a Charge? who calls it a charge? I say not so, and see! before you bear them, you call them Spurious

[with that he takes up one that was titled from Lambeth, and was go­ing to read somewhat.] One Abdy the chief in­former, that very day be came with his Keeper to look for his reward he was stab­bed in Fleet­street, being imprisoned — for Blasphe any, Adultery Ranting, Atheisme, and the most horrid sins that ever were beard of.

Yea, and I have good grounds so to do, seeing they come from such kind of Informers as they are.

Then O.P. read one Article from Lambeth, as that he should call him Oliver Cromwel, that great dra­gon that fits at Whitehall pull him cut, &c.

There is such stuffe as I abhor to have in my mouth, but I shall for bear to answer, and for that it is not worth the answer­ing to.

These things will be proved.

(One of the Twelve,) We desire the things our Brother Ro­gers suffers for may be publickly known to all, for we apprehend he suffers for the Truth, and the things which you hear, you may that be misinformed in.

Therefore let me have a fair Hearing in a legal Court, and I hope the Lord wil make me ready for what ever I must suffer right or wrong, if it must be so, but yet I tell you my Lord, I fear not any thing that you can lay against me justly and honestly, but the truth is, you take up any thing, that your Informers can handsomely patch together, who like the devil take a bit here, and a bit there (that makes for their turn) and you take it (as it lies) for granted presently. O my Lord I cannot but mourn for you, and your con­dition, which is sad and to be bewailed, and the rather, for that you have so many about you, who for their own ends, to get the world into their hands, do deceive you, but the Lord will judge righteously (ere long) I am sure, and let appear whether you or we have the best bottome to bear us up, for I blesse the Lord the comforter is with me! I think my condition (through grace) though a poor prisoner a great deal better than yours, I would not change with you.

Well, well you are known well enough, and what spirit you are of, [Page 20]we know you, and to call your sufferings for Christ, when they are for evil-doing is not wel, yea it is blaspemy, yea I say blasphemy again, (for all your M. Rog. a­mazed at such langu­age again lifted up his band and eys towards heaven, ap­pealing to God to judg righteously. lifting up of your eys) and I tell you, yea you, that in a good box of ointment, a little thing, a dead flie may spoil all, yea a little flye.

I dare not (my Lord) justifie my self in my infirmities, but I blesse the Lord I can apply Christs merits; I beseech you speak not so reproachfully of the spirit of God, to call it fanatick or an evil­spirit, for that is blasphemy so to do, (& see Isa. 63.10.) neither call evil good or good evil, for that is prevarication, Isa. 5.20. that which you judge Evil-doing, the Lord judgeth well doing and my duty, yet I must tell you the Lord never made you a Judge over our Faith, nor of his Scripture whereof you take upon you.

Well, you know that the time was, there was no great difference betwixt you and me; I had you in my ey, and did think of you for imploy­ment (and preferment) you know it well enough.

True my Lord! and then you could say to me, you thought no man in England so fit, but since, the case is altered indeed; but I pray consider, who it is, is changed: surely, it must be conscience that makes me suffer then: through so many temptations, as I have met with: and I have often said, let me be convinced by good words, that I am an Evil-doer, as you said; and I would lay my Neck under you feet for mercy; but till then, I must keep my con­science.

One of the Grandees (as we take it, it was G. Desborough) saies, let the Informations be read, let them be heard; and then Scobell was called to read them (not those from Lambeth, but) those that were *brought in from Tho. Apostle, The Infor­mations from Tho. Apostles read. from what Mr. Rogers prayed, what he preached, and what they sang in Hymnes, what he prayed, was for the Prisoners of the Lord at Winsor, and against the Tyranny of all Antichristian Powers, and to that purpose; and that God would hasten his Vials, out upon them. What he preached was out of Mat. 5. Agree with thine adversay (Christ) quickly; The Articles against Mr Ro, as well as they could be ta­ken. and be observed, Appostate­adulterate professors must agree quickly with Christ their Adversary: ap­plying it to the present Powers as such; proving they break the 10. Commandements: As the 1. In setting up Idols again, a golden Calf; so the Army and fleshly strength and the like are idolized, whilest men say these are the gods that brought us up out of Egypt.

2. Command. is, Graven images, and so are the Tryers, and high Court Commissioners, such the inventions and graven images of mens ma­king, with their Seals, Parchments, black boxes, and pick-locks, These Ar­ticles are many of them sals for matter and form, as can be made appear by hundreds. Padlocks, and Keys, for your Hog-sties, Pig sties, and Goose-stals.

3. Command. Take not my name in vain, &c. Such as have broke all their Declarations, Ingagements, and abused his Attributes, using that name of God, for their own ends, are guilty of this.

4. Command. Remember that thou keep holy the, &c. speaking of soul-rest, and saying, that the present Powers, kept not the Sabbath, that rested in their pleasures, slesh, &c. and not in Christ, but did their own work.

5. Command. Honour thy father and mother, &c. They brake this commandement in their disobedience to God the heavenly Father.

6. Thou shalt not murther, &c. Murtherers are of many sorts, such as have betraied the Blood that hath been shed against this kind of Govern­ment, &c. And then he converted his discourse against Informers that come for blood, & said, to hate a brother without a cause is murder.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery, &c. This they did with others, as Army, Lawyers, Priests interest, and that which they before destroyed.

8. Steal not. Now there are great thieves, and little thieves; great ones are now in present Powers, and Army thieves, Clergy thieves, Lawyers thieves, and the great thief now in White-hall. But the o­ther two he left to another time: When he had done, he read a Letter from Mr. Feak, where was a Dialogue between him and the Governor, and then he commented upon it: and said, It is worse now then it was with the Romans, for then Paul might preach, though a Prisoner, but now we are Now is Mr. Rogers forced to preach out at the iron bars of the prison on Lordsdaies. denied it. After that he sung an Hymne and the peo­ple joyned with great alacrity) against oppression and persecution, &c.

After this Information was read, Mr. Rogers said, My Lord, I had a purpose not to answer one word hereto, this being no sutable place or time to answer a charge, and no witnesses appearing against me to make it good; but yet I shall tell you this, for I will not (with the Lords help) speak a word but what I will own to your face; for I love to appear in the sincerity of my soul and conscience, for my Lord and Master Jesus Christ plain to all men; and to lay open my principles which I have no cause (though grace) to be ashamed of, the matter of this is much of it true: but as to the form, there is a great deal of patching & botching put in by your mercenary hirelings, which I will not own, but as to much of the matter of it, I must dare, and [Page 22]with the Lords grace) I will, though I dy for it, and without you should cut my tongue out of my head, I shal continue the testimony up, and tell you moreover (with the rest about you here) that I re­gard your laws in the matters of my God no more than straws, for Imperia Divina non sunt subjecta Magistratui, saith one of the Martyrs, and tell you, that I will not be accomptable to the Magistrate, nor submit to his judgment in the matters of my Faith, which the Civil law can take no due cognizance of.

One of his Councel said, Ha! Imperia Divina.

So I say, Imperia Divina.

Saith he, are these spurious Articles now? put in by drunkards, and swearers, and whoremongers too? are they not? Ha!—Ha! —

My Lord, They would fain have shisted off them from Lambeth (as it seems) as if they were asha­med of them. I know what I say? Those which were sent from Lambeth, put in by the Prisoners there, those I say: a [...]e such, I did not say all, but those that I see there, which lie upon the Table titled from Lambeth; and besides, there is Serjeant Dendy knows this, that I say for hehimself (I thank him) sent in their Informations against me to M. Thurloe, which he cannot deny. S. Dendy, I delivered him none my Lord. Ro. I say not, you delivered them, but you sent them by your man, who delivered them according to your directions.

But my Mother, my Lord, this was my Mother, for she Cate­chized me, my Lord, and I told her.

So that is true, as I said before, that those from Lambeth-prison are spurious, wicked & illegal.

Pray, my Lord, let M. Rogers have a copy of his charge, for the law allows it him.

No, this is not his tryal.

Why then, let me have it as you are a Christian, for is it fit I be denied a sight of my accusation against me?

[but be turned away and would not hear.]

Then, my Lord, let us, have liberty of conscience; will you not give us so much liberty as the Parliament gave?

[with that he turn'd about in anger]

I tell you, there was never such liberty of conscience, no, never such liberty since the dayes of He confessed that Anti­christs go­vernment is now up in England, yet so that no wonder the Prisons are so full of precious Saints. Antichrist as is now; for may not men preach and pray what they will? And have not men their liberty of all opinions?

It is true, there is liberty e­nough, and too much too, for drunkards, swearers, and men of vile debauched principles and evil lives, Common-prayer-men, and such like (we know) round the Nation.

[then his creatures about him scoffed.]

Ha!—Are Drunkennesse, Swearing, opinions then?

I say not so, but I say, such men may have their opinions whiles we are [Page 23] persecuted for the truth. But why do you not my Lord, let out my brother Feak at Windsor, with my self (seeing we suffer in one cause, for one testimony, and (I trust) by one Spirit of Jesus Christ) let us both out to answer for our selves joyntly together? and to make it appear to all uninteressed Christians, that we are no evill doers, in the matters we suffer for, which if we do not then, let us suffer.

M Feak, truly M Feak, (I think) lesse evill may be said of him than of you: but there are many of different opinions, that come to me, and they know they have all their liberty of their opinions.

Yea, every man almost that talks with you, is apt to think you of his opini­on, my Lord, what ever he be?

[ his creatures scoffed again.

Nay, you But some of that opi­nion do, as Mr. T.G. and others, do not (saith he) in anger?

[his creatures scoffed and laughed again.]

Some of this Judgment do, think you so, although as I said before the the Privative—(or negative) part of the Testimony you cannot bear.

Pish! here is a deal of positive and privative to shew you are a Scholer, and 'tis well known what you are, and where do you find that distinction? They thought Mr. Rogers to be an antick, because he spake in power and goeat zeal.

In Logick.

Ha!

I must tell you in the Name of the Lord Jehovah that your condition is very despe­rate, and if you consult the holy oracles, you will find it for the next vial which is to be poured out, is the scorching hot one, and must fall upon the Apostate professours that have forsaken and betrayed the cause of Christ, and look to it, it is like to fall heavy upon your heads, and those that are about you, I pray, think of that in Hosea 1.4. the blood of Jezreel shall be upon the house of Jehu, though Jehu did obey the Lord in doing Justice on Ahab and Jezabel, yet be­cause he fell into the same predicament of sin, walking in the same steps of evil which Ahab walked in (the very blood of them sell upon his head.

Your spirit is to Judge, but I regard not your words, look you to your Conscience, and I will look to mine, yet for that of Jehu, Why, what was that for? it was for fear lest the people should go back again to the House of David (and so he was running into the story of Jeroboam) and to Jerusalem, but he was corrected. Then Kiffen said, it is so, then said Mr. Rogers it is not so of Jehu, but of Jeroboam, which he speaks of; then he corrected himself, and said, well; but Jehu, can you parallel it now? Why his heart was hypocriticall, and by policy clave to the same sin of his Predecessors, and Baal again to please the people.

True my Lord, and is it not so now?

Hah—saith he; and turned about to his Army men, and so he spake of the Army too, what can you say of them?

I say they are an Appostate Army, that have most perfidious­ly betrayed the cause of Christ, broken their faith in so many Decla­rations and Engagements, and are odious to the Saints; yea the very name of them will be odious to the children that are yet unborn.

[With that the Army-men (for many Officers were by) were sorely vexed, some grating their teeth, and laying heads together]

I tell you (saith he, in a chafe) I tell you, and you! that they have kept them all to a tittle, not one of you can make it appear that they have broke one Declaration or Engagement, or a tittle of one, prove it if you can, any of you.

Mr. Rogers did earnestly presse for liberty, to instance in some, and with much ado, said: My Lord, if you would have patience, I would instance in many: [they scoff again.

Am I impatient? then let them that stand by see! nay, it is you are so full like the Pamphleters.

They that write Pamphlets now, never printed more lyes and blasphemies since the world stood.

I think so too.

But my Lord, if you please to let me speak, for if I be ex­tream, is not passio concupiscibilis, as we see in some men, who speak all for themselves, whilest we seek onely for Christ and his king­dome, but rather a passio irascibilis (which it may, is my weaknesse, but sure it is my indignation to sin and self, and that which I see set up instead of Christ: but if you For there were many postures [...] actions ten­ding to di­sturb and interrupt him. will give me leave, I will in­stance in Declarations, as that in 47. for one, page 9. where they Declare against any Authority or Absolute power in any Person or Persons what soever during life; saying the people so subjected were meere Slaves, and that you would not have it so in any; no, not in any of your own Army; or of your own Principles; nor yet of whom you might have most personall assurance? and that it was no resisting of Magistracy, to side with just principles; and much more to that purpose: Besides, in severall others, as in Albans: and that when the Army went to Scotland against the Clergy and Tithes.

[ But Master Rogers was interrupted and not suffered to insist on any others.

And who? Hear me: Who? — Who? I say, bath broken that? Where is an Arbitrary or Absolute power? (nay, hear me) Where is such a Power?

Is not the Long-sword such? By what Law or Power are we put into prison, my brother Feak above these 12 months, I a­bove 28 weeks (and several others of our Brethren) and we know not for what to this day: which, I say again, is worse, yea worse then the Romane Law: And is not this Arbitrary? And is not your Power, with the Armies, Absolute? to break up Parlia­ments, and do what you will? But if you please, let me instance in others.

(But they would not suffer him.)

One of the Army, some say, L.C. W. Sir, (saith he to Mr. Ro.) you say the Army have broken all their Engagements.

Yea, every one of them: and if they make another Decla­ration, they will hardly be believed again, by good people.

But I pray by what Rule do you resist Powers set up of God?

Sir, you are mistaken, we do not resist such as are set up of God; but we resist sin in all men: and as Luther said, Invaniar sane superbus, &c. I may be accounted proud, mad, or any thing: but be it so ne modo impii silentii arguar, dum Christus patitur; rather then I be guilty of the sin of Silence. But Mr. Ro. was interrupt­ed, and forced to break off. whiles O. P. proceeded..

Now for the Army, they are resolved not to rest, till they have performed all they engaged; and they are about it, as fast as they can do it in order.

And much to that purpose he spake. But then Mr. Her. desired to speak.

I desire to speak a word.

Well, do.

That Gentleman (meaning L.C. W.) asked by what Rule we resist powers: We desire then to be satisfied, by what Rule you resisted the King, and warred against him and his adhe­rents, and destroyed the Governments before, seeing they were ac­counted too a lawful Authority. And consider how much blood cries under the Altar, How long, O. Lord, holy and true!

Would undertake to answer, by a long Narrative of the peoples grievances, the Kings absolute power, and his seeking to destroy his subjects, till they were forced to take up Arms for their own defence; so that it was a defensive War and the former powers had broken their Engagements, and forfeited their trust.

Much more was spoken by one or other thereto. But saith he, looking upon Mr. Ro. Ha!

I see he is full to speak.

Yea. my Lord, I am: for (ex concessis) our controversie is decided, and the Case is plain on our side, and seems so now more then even; The Controver­sie cleared, out of their own mouthes. for do not the poor people of God seel a Preragative-interest now up? As the old Non conformists, or the good old Puritans were persecuted, imprisoned, reproached, and denied pro­tection from men, and therefore were forced to flie to God by faith and prayer, and tears day and night, 1. (not ceasing, till the vial of wrath was poured out upon the beads of the King and his Prelates: so, I say, the new Non-conformists are abused, disowned, and denied protection; persecuted, imprisoned, banished, and forced day and night (yea thousands of them in City and Country) to their faith, tears, prayers, and appeals; which are the Bombar da Christiano­rum, and will prevail (as sure as God is in heaven) to bring down the next hot scorching vial of his wrath upon these new Enemies and Persecutors.

Besides, 2. in your own Declaration, p. 7. of that — 43, you say it is no resisting of Magistracie to side with just principles. And is it not just to side with that Interest which the blood of so many thousands of the Saints hath sealed to, in the three Nations; and so many Declarations, Vows, and Engagements have been made for, viz. for the Lambs, and against this your Interest, which we have all engaged, prayed, bled, and fought against? Now, my Lord, let the loud Cries of the blood shed against these things you have set up, be heard; and make restitution of that blood, those lives, tears, bowels, faith, prayer, limbs, and skulls, of us and our relations left in the fields, and laid out against this kinde of Govern­ment, whether in Civil or Ecclesiastical; or else let us have what they were laid out for: otherwise we must and will, with the Lords help, side with those just Principles that have been so sealed to, and owned by the Lord. And this will be a most apparent defensive war as ever was in the world, to defend what the blood, and bones, and estates of so many thousands of the Saints of God have bought at so high a rate, which they are wronged: for they never thought of setting up this. And therefore I say, (my Lord) if our God the Lord Jehovah do give his Call, I am ready, for one, amongst the Lords remnant, to side with just Principles, in the strength of the Anointing, whether it be pradicando, pracando, or praeliando; by preaching, praying, or fighting.

Said you not praliando?

Yea, says Mr. R. in the Spirit of the Lord: for the Case was never so clear as now it is in the state of the Controversie. For the Controversie is not now between man and man, The state of the Controversie is between Christ & O.P. Christs Government & Mans. one Government of the world, and another Government of the world, or King and People; but it is now between Christ and you (my Lord) Christs Government and yours: and which of these two, are the higher powers for us to side with, and be obedient unto, judge ye.

Ha! Why who denies the Case to be clearer now? But I heard indeed, This speech seemed to trou­ble them all. it is some of your principles to be at it: you long to be at it; you want but an opportunity.

The remnant of the womans seed must be at it when they have the Call. For I beseech you, my Lord, consider how neer it is to the End of the Beasts dominion, the 42 months, and what time of day it is with us now.

(But Mr. Ro. was interrupted.)

Talk not of that; for I must tell you plainly, An Ignoramus brought in very honestly. they are things I understand not.

It seems (my Lord) so, else surely you durst not lay violent hands upon us, for the testimony and truth of the day, as you do.

Why then do you imprison others for the light, if you your self be so ignorant?

(But then some of the Court-creatures pull'd him by the cloak, and laid violent hands on him, and call'd him stinking base fellow, saying he knew not whom he spake to, nor where he was; giving him many uncivil words. But afterward one of them said to him, Ask for Mr. Ro. out of prison; a [...]k for him, and my Lord will let him out. But B. D. answered, No, Sir, we came not for that.

Great men are not always wise.

See! (says he, looking upon his Army-men.)

They are not always wise with the wisdom of God, though they may have much carnal policie, subtilty, and reason of State. But the seed of the woman shall break the Serpents head.

(Which Mr. Ro. speaking with a high voice, and great alacrity, it made the Courtiers scoff at him, as if he were a Mad-man.

Ha! and thus they talk of the Ministery, and Commissio­ners for Approbation, and say they are Antichristian. See your Ordi­nance, March 20, 1653. the ground is upon Patrons right to present to cure of souls; the creator, is your L P. Cromwel; the matter, men of corrupt principles and practices, and most of them of the National Church; the end is, to fill Parish-cures, and get Tythes: all An­tichristian..

Yea, my Lord, we do say so, and they are so, as to their stan­ding upon a wrong, un-Gospel foot of account; and I will prove [Page 36]them and your Tryers (I speak not as to their persons, but as to their standing) Antichristian for matter, and form, and rule (by which they sit) and end for which they sit.

You fix the name of Antichristian upon any thing.

Pray (my Lord) make no Law against that name; let it not be treason to use the name Antichristian: for that name will up yet higher and higher; and many things that you think good and Chri­stian, will be found Antichristian ere long.

Being angry, look'd on his Army-men: See! said he, and so all is Antichristian, and Tythes are so too with you; but I will prove they are not.

My Lord, you were once of another minde, and told me you'd have them pull'd down, and put into a Treasury.

Did I ever say so?

Yea that you did, in the Co [...]k-pit (the round place there;) and said moreover, that the Poor should be maintained and put to work, with what remained of them, that we might have no begger in England.

Ha! there be many Gentlemen know that I have been for them, and will maintain the justness of them.

But, my Lord, how can that be, that the National Ministe­ry is not Antichristian?

See now! how you run! It is not a National Ministery that is now established, nor can you make it appear they are Anti­christian.

Yea, my Lord, without any difficulty, out of your own Law which hath constituted these Tryers and High-Court-Commissio­ners to establish a worldly Clergie.

I tell you, you and you, that you cannot; for they ordain none.

No: but if the Pope, Prelate, or Devil should ordain them, they must approve of them, settle them in their Parishes, get them their Tythes, and what not? if they be but conformable to

— He is interrupted.

I tell you, I tell you, it is their grace they judge of, and not for parts or learning, Latine, Greek, or Hebrew.

And who made them judges of grace, my Lord? At most, they can but judge of the fruits of grace; and how dare they take [Page 37]upon them to be judges over Grace? It is not you, but the Lord Jesus, that can make them such judges.

[With that, he turned away, as very angry.

My Lord, we are very much dissatisfied with what you have done against these prisoners of the Lord Jesus, for so they are, and we must count them so: for you have given us no sat is faction at all, in what you pretend them to be as evil doers.

I cannot tell you then how to help it.

For my part, I must declare against you, and will venture my life, if I be called to it, with these our brethren that suffer.

As for those Articles, we have heard them read, against our bro. Ro. out of his Sermons preached at Tho. Apost. and from what he prayed at Th. Apost. Set aside but what is put in by your In­formers, which we wil take our Oathes that heard them (all preached) were never spoken by him: (only, I say, that excepted) we will live and die with him upon those Articles, & will own him with our lives.

— Yea, said Mr. Ro. and I believe an hundred will, that heard and writ them.

Well, (saith he) I'll send for some of you ere long: but I have lost this time, and have publike business upon me at this time: I had rather have given 500 l. I tell you, there wants brotherly love; and the several sorts of Forms would cut the throats one of another, should not I keep the peace.

Those you call Fifth Monarchy-men, are driven by your Sword to love one another.

Why I tell you there be Anabaptists (pointing at Mr. Kif­sin) and they would cut the throats of them that are not under their Forms; so would the Presbyterians cut the throats of them that are not of their Forms; and so would you Fifth Monarchy-men. It is sit to keep all these Forms out of the Power.

Who made you (my Lord) a Judge of our Principles? You speak evil of you know not what. For that Fifth Monarchy-principle (as you call it) is of such a latitude as takes in all Saints, all such as are sanctified in Christ Jesus, without respect of what Form or Judgement he is. But, Judiciuns fit secundum vim in­tellectualis luminis

— [He was interrupted.

What do you tell us of your Latine?

Why (my Lord) you are Chancellor of Oxford; and can you not bear that Language?

My Lord, we have great comfort by the Ministery of our brother Rogers, and great miss of him; and therefore we have de­manded his Liberty, and desire to know whether he shall be at liber­ty, or no.

I will take my own time: you shall not know what I will do.

Then let us have liberty to hear him preach.

It cannot be, my Lord: for I have many prisoners and 'tis dangerous And yet for all S. Dendy's baseness to the poor persecuted people of God, And his readi­ness to prevent the great mans answer, he can let in as many as will come, to the drunken profane priso­ners & plotters; so that friends are glad to use their names (if they know any of them) that come to see Mr. Rogers..

Pray, my Lord, consider that place in Isa. 49.24, 25, 26. for the Lord will deliver the lawful Captive in that day which is coming: you can but have my blood at last; and you had like to have had it already in the Prison ere this: two of my children have died there since my imprisonment, and I have been at Deaths-door.

It is unreasonable our brother Ro. should be kept prisoner so, in such a place, and at such a charge as is (for him) above 200 l. per an. and we know no cause for it, but his conscience.

Then S. Dendy was spoken to, to answer for himself.

Now, my Lord, I see one of my Accusers. I never de­manded a peny of Mr. Ro. nor of my Aunt his wife, who is one of Sir Robert Payne's daughters.

I knew her father very well.

But they have (my Lord) three rooms, and it cannot be al­lowed.

No more room then one prisoner had before, being divided into three little rooms, and but one chimney in them All. The Plot­ter that went out before I came into them, had them All. And for the Fees, though you in person demanded them not, yet your man (old Measey) did, for you, several times, viz. 4 l. 4 s. per week; which he did before witness, as I can prove under their hands: and he said I should not go out till the Sergeant had it. And what besides I was to pay you, I was not to know till I went out.

Mrs. Ro. said to Sergeant Dendy, It's true, you have had but 5 l. yet of it.

Why he is your Nephew, who was accounted one that lo­ved the people of God.

So were others as well as he, till this trial.

My Lord, will you not give us the liberty to hear him in the Prison then, seeing you will not let us hear him abroad?

Is that the liberty you sought for? (says he, in a scoff.)

Yes, Sir, and that which we demand.

But then the Great man would be gone: and as he was going out, Mr. Ro. desired him to remember he must be judged, and the day of the Lord was neer, and that he would, (ere long) and those about him finde them that now he and they counted false Prophets, in Windsor and Lambeth, true Prophets; and what they have said, they should finde come to pass ere many yeers yet: for that the righ­teous Jehovah, who sitteth on high, heareth all our prayers, sighs, groans, and tears. But away he went, and would not hear.

As soon as we came out of the room, Sergeant Dendy in the Gal­lery threatned what he would do, and how he would send them fur­ther off, and order them ere long; Mr. Rogers receiving the threat­ning without impatience, or one word of reply unto him.

That very night, a strict Order was sent after him to Lambeth-prison, that no more then six may come to see Mr. R. at a time, (no such Order being made for any of the other Prisoners, who have of lend company as many as they will at a time.) And since that, the Gaoler hath been so strict, (especially upon the Lords days) ac­cording to his Orders from Whitehal, that he will not suffer one brother to come in to see him, or to pray with him, that is sent from the Churches of Christ, (upon those days, if he knows him) to keep a holy rest with Mr. R. In the mean time, the Con­tumelies, Con­tempt, and op­probrious abu­ses, the members of Mr. Peak's, Mr. Rogers's, Mr. Raworth's and of some o­ther Churches, met with below in the yard, du­ring the fore­said Discourse with O. Crom­wel. But to pass over that and leave it to the Judge of heaven and earth, who (we are sure) will not over­pass it.

During this Discourse between Mr. R. and the Great man above, the Brethren that were below in the yard, had their share of re­proaches and abuses. For the members of the Churches of Christ who could not have access with Mr. Ro. were kept below, and en­compassed about with divers of the deboist Souldiers; who when they heard us declare against those barbarous actions which the Guard so cruelly acted with their Swords, against our naked bre­thren and friends, those aforesaid Souldiers began to question the occasion of our being there: which when we had told them, they began to set up their voices, (many of them) hooting and hissing at [...] as if we had not been Christians, or creatures of the like make [Page 40]with themselves; telling us we had often risen, and they had allayed us, and they made no question but they should also allay us at this time, if we intended to rise. To whom we answered, that there was no such thing in cur eye now, as to avenge our selves by or with external weapons: but said, We have here Swords (shewing our Bibles) which we believe will, in God's appointed time, (being guided and accompanied by his Spirit) destroy and cut in pieces your Swords, which now you draw against us and it.

Afterwards we further observed, that whilst we were waiting be­lowe in the open yard, for the return of our friend, and friends, there being of us (as neer as we can remember) betwixt fourty and fifty persons, (men and women) that we could finde no place in the aforesaid yard, where we might have any quiet, or be free from the uncivil reproaches, scoffing, jeers, blasphemous nicknames, and what not? which some of the aforesaid Foot-guard threw upon us, with great contempt and scorn, telling us, Bridewel and such-like places were sitter for us, So that we be­lieve, the Lord bath a little remnant in the army also, whose souls do secretly mourn for these Abominations: and it is obser­vable, that the Lord hath by degrees pull'd the choicest of them out of this Apostate-army, that they might not partake of their plagues; as, M.G. Ha­rison, col. Rich Col. Okey, col. Alured, Adj. G. Allen, M.G. Overton, Maj. Wiggens, Dr. Day, and many others. then to be there?

But in the midst of their uncivil, unchristian-like, and very leud language to us, we cannot but remember that spirit of remorse and pity which seemed to be in some of their Officers, to see us so abu­sed: insomuch as some of the said Officers told us they were sorry to see such things, namely, the uncivil carriage of some of their Souldiers: yet (said they) we cannot expect better, where it is not.

Thus, for the space of divers hours, we were barried up and down, not being suffered to be in quiet in any one place, without the company of divers of those unruly fellows, whom we should have been content to let hear our discourse, would they have suffered us to stand still or in quiet: But they so uncivilly & most ungodlily shew their obscene and silt by speeches and actions; yea, they pulled and haled divers of the women and maids that were there of our friends, and said that we made no conscience of our ways, and that they were of light principles, using such words and gestures to them and us, as we are ashamed to utter or express; besides manifold more provoca­tions, revilings, and filthy speeches, and threatnings, and sinful actions, wherein they seemed to take great delight.

But after Mr. Rogers and the Brethren that were with him came down into the Yard, many friends gathered about him. Whiles [Page 41]Mr. R. (being remanded again to prison) was going to take water with his Keeper, he heard M.G. Harison, Col. Rich, Mr. Carew, Qu.M.Gen. Courtney, Mr. Ireton, Mr. Squib, with many others, were there, in the yard: so that Mr. Ro. went to them. And after joyful Salutations, he told them he was going to Prison again [...] and that there were Articles put in by wicked men out of the Pri­son against him, which he excepted against as illegal, and as given in by Plotters, and men given to drinking, swearing, and such-like sins; and some others, which were read against him, from Tho. Apostles. But as he was telling this, he was interrupted by one that cried out, That is false, it is false. Upon which, he was silent, to look upon the man that so said: and it was Mr. Kiffen, (who had crowded among us, to listen for tales to carry to his Master) who then said, They were not Articles put in by Drunkards, that is untrue, &c. but by honest Godly men that heard you at Tho. Apo­stles. To which Mr. Ro. replied, that the Articles were of two sorts: those read, were from Tho. Apostles; but those unread, (which he excepted against) were from Lambeth, given in by such leud men, and he saw them upon the Table: and that his Lord Pro­tector (besides) said they had Informations from the Prison, and moreover read one of them, viz. that of the Great Dragon; and Sergeant Dendy sent them to Mr. Thurloe, as was proved: so that it was not false, but very true. At which Mr. Kiffen was so silen­ced, that he could not say a word for himself. Which some of the Gentlemen by, seeing, reproved him for his rashness: and so Mr. Ro. and they parted, perceiving people to flock about them and with­out doubt, to have somewhat to inform their Great Master against Mr. Ro. or some of the poor Saints; for that is the principle and practice of self-seeking Sycophants and Court-Parasites, to make themselves, and not care how they murther others, or what they in­form against them.

Whiles Mr. R. was carried away to prison again, M.G. Harison, Col. Rich, Mr. Carew, Mr. Squib, Mr. Courtney, Mr. Ireton, & ma­ny others, con­tinued up the Testimony & the Demand to O. P. the very same night. the foresaid Gentlemen (of much merit, and singular honour amongst the choi­cest Saints, for their unspotted sanctity, and integrity to the betray­ed Truth and Cause of Christ) went up to the Great Man; although before they could have any access, the Sword was drawn at them al­so, and set at Mr. Carey's brest: but after eight or ten of them had liberty to O. P. they brought him the some kinde of Message from [Page 42] Jehovah, that was before delivered him by the Twelve; making a Demand of the Lord's Prisoners, and bearing their Testimony to his face, against Him and his Government.

In the mean time, Mr. Kiffen belowe had got a company toge­ther (in Mr. Rogers's absence) railing upon him, and saying he was a wicked man, and had told what was not true of the Articles, and spake against his Lord. But Mr. G. (a precious godly Christian, and a member of the Church at D.) then spake aloud to Mr. Kiffen (as Mr. K. did before to Mr. R.) saying, That's false: for I can (says he) no more be silent for Mr. Rogers, then you can be for your Lord Protector: What Mr. R. spake was truth, as he made it appear to your face; (and then he told him how.) So that poor Mr. K. was silenc'd again the second time, and could not go on, till a more pri­vate and clandestine meeting among his own kinde of Time-ser­vers and Self-seekers, where he might tell his untruths against Mr. Mr. R. M.G. Harison, and others, without control, (as we hear he, with some that belong unto him, have done at large) and have them taken upon the trust and credit of his word at a venture: it is but reason and gratitude to his Great Master, to possess all he can against the poor persecuted Saints, in the behalf of him to whom he is so highly obliged, (above any one man almost in England) for his large favors, & beneficial Patentees. But ere long the Merchants who were made Rich (by compliance with Babylon) shall weep and wail, and say, Alas, Alas! Rev. 18.15, 16.

It is to be observed, somewhat ob­servable. that very day the Sword was drawn twice at the Witnesses and Womans Seed. The Providence is also ad­mirable, at that very juncture when Mr. R. and the Brethren were before him, to maintain the Testimony and Demand made by the Twelve, that on that very day (many Assemblies of the Saints in several places, being hard at the Throne) the Lord should call out one (unknown to any of us) whole Meeting of the praying num­ber (being about 34 men) to go to Whitehal, and bear their Wit­ness also.

The concurrence of the Testimony and the Demand is no less considerable, seeing one had not the knowledge of the others Mes­sage, that M.G. Harison, Mr. Carew, and the rest, should second the aforesaid Twelve, by a meer hand and call of God, which they were obedient unto; (which is very exemplary and encouraging [Page 43]to all the Saints and Churches in England, who are faithful to the Cause of Christ) seeing so leading and calling a Providence.

The Demand and the Testimony is of a sudden gotten to a high pitch, The Testimony up at a high pitch. which doth mightily raise up the expectations of the believing remnant.

It is not meet for us to publish the matter of their Testimony, (being of the same nature with this Narrative) neither can we do it so accurately and faithfully as we hope some others will; The present work of the Day, (to gag the misreports thereupon) for the quickning and strengthning them that are to follow us, calling for the publica­tion thereof without delay, where-ever it lies. And the rather, for that Those choice servants of the Lord Jesus, M.G. Harison Mr. Carew, & Mr. Courtney, sent away with a Troop of horse to prison, we know not whi­ther, the 22 day of the 12 month M.G. Harison, Col. Rich, Mr. Carew, and Col. Courtney, are so cruelly used for their Testimony and the Truths sake, (having no fact (but their faith) to charge them with) and hurried away to Prison with a Troop of Horse, and we know not whither. So that the man must needs be wilfully blinde indeed now, that will not see and say, The Saints are under Persecution.

Therefore let not the good People of the Nation be so shamefully abused and deceived as they have been, A word of Cau­tion. with lying Pamphlets and Informers, whiles the Truth cannot, must not, date not be printed, for fear of offending the men in Power, and suffering a Prison, or worse. Of all, beware of that Abominable Oracle the late Iron­monger (but now Parish-Preacher) A man so base and scandalous, as makes him horrible, and his Name to stink among the Churches, as very unfit mat­ter to be a member of a Church, but ra­ther fit to be excommunicat­ed, & exploded the society of all the Saints, for bringing so foul reproach upon Religion, which he hath formerly pretended to; till he followed this Trade of Merchant for Lyes. Walker, (his Weekly Pro­ceedings) whose forehead hath for many yeers been plated and bra­zened in the Trade and Art of Lying, making it his Calling and his Living (except the Tryers help him more easily to the Parish-Tythes.) This drives the poor man to so much pitiful soraping a­mong the Court-Clerks for a few Lyes to sell every week at an easie rate, that he and his family may live comfortably upon the lying slandering, and traducing the Lords peculiar ones, who are as the apple of his eyes. How lamentably he hath abused Mr. Feak, Mr. Rogers M.G. Overton and many others, is well known, and one day he must answer before the just Judge of all hearts, with a wan countenance, and woful conscience, however he thinks to palliate it at present with a So't was told me. But as Solomon says, Prov. 17. [Page 44]4. A lyer giveth ear to a naughty tongue; and the curse is threatned not onely to them that make, but them that receive and report Lyes, Rev. 21. Therefore ( Exod. 23.1.) Put not thy hand to an unrighteous witness.

These things are published in meer love to the Truth and despi­sed Saints of God, for whose sake we are contented to become a reproach in the world, and to suffer any thing (by his Grace) that man can inflict upon us, so our dear Lord Jesus may but reign, his Truth triumph, and his Kingdom be exalted. Amen. Amen.