IT is not to be imagined o­therwise, but that every man, who pretends un­to Religion▪ makes the same Reli [...] [...]ich he professeth, [...] Jacobs Ladder, or his fiery [...] ascend to heaven. Neither is [...] supposed, but that the same man [...] [...]hought any other Religion better [...] his own, or [Page 2] his own not the only way to heaven) would forsake that Religion which he had formerly imbraced, and matriculate him­self a member of that Church, whose pu­rer hands were likeliest to give him the truest blessing: Wherefore burning zeal is not to be blamed (though the fire be mi­splac'd, if it operate according to its own nature, which is to congregate homoge­neall beings, and make them love to sit by the same fire.

Thus affected was that Noble, and in­deed (in his way) heavenly disposed, Henry late Marquesse of Worcester: to play the greatest prize that ever was played be­tween any two, that ever entred within those lists. Three Diadems were to en­counter with the Tripple Crowne; and the Tripple Crown with three Scepters; opportunity that lucky gamster, that hard­ly loses a game in twenty, was on the Marquesses side, time and place directed him, how to take points in his own Ta­bles; the King at that time being in the Marquess own house at Ragland, and neces­sitated to borrow money to buy bread, after so great a losse at Nazeby: the King being thus put to play the after game, with the old Marquesse, was a little mistrustful, [Page 3] that he had not plaid the fore game with him so well, as that he had not thereby prejudic'd the latter: for though the Mar­quesse and his son, were the two ablest, and most forward'st shoulderers up of the declining Throne, especially the chip of the old block, whose disposition expressed it self most Noble in not caring who had lov'd the King, so that he might be but permit­ted to love Alexander; whom he affected, not only with the loyall respects of a sub­ject towards his Soveraigne, but also, with such passionate wayes of expressions, and laboriousnesse in all good offices, as are wont to be predominant in those, in whom simpathy is the the only ground of their affections: yet there were not wan­ting some kind of men, who made the a­versnesse of this Noble-mans Religion, an occasion of improving their own envies: which though it could never lose him the least ground in his Masters good opinion of him (who never would judge no more a Saint by his face, then a Devil by his feet, but both according to their severall ingagements) yet there were some things which happened, as having relation to this family, which were not altogether pleasing; however, though His Majesty [Page 4] came thither, usher'd by necessity, yet he came neither unwelcomed, nor uninvited; and entertained as if he had been more King, by reason of some late atchive­ments, rather then otherwise: and though money came from him like drops of bloud, yet he was contented that every drop within his body should be let out at His command, so that he might performe so meritorious a piece of worke, as (he thought) the being an instrument of bringing the Father of of his Country, to be the Son of his Church) would be un­to his souls health. The Marquesse ha­ving these resolutions within himselfe, thought to give them breath at the same time, that His Majestie should make his motion for a further supply of money, which he daily and hourly expected, but was deceived in his expectations; for the relation already having reach'd the Kings ear, how an accident had made me no less fortunate to his Lordship, then in being the meanes of preserving his Lordships person, and no inconsiderable fortune then in the same venture with him, and how that I preserved both the one and the o­ther in concealing both: for the space that the Moon useth to be twice in riding [Page 5] of her circuit (the particulars hereof, here to insert, would tend rather to much ar­rogance, then any purpose, wherefore I further forbear) untill such time as the trust that providence had reposed in me, was crowned by the same hand, with such successe, as brought the Marquesse safe to his own house in peace; which I had no sooner brought to passe, hut the Marquess drew from me a solemn ingagement, never to leave him so long as we both should live, which I was so carefull for to observe, that I neither left him in life, nor death, faire weather, nor foule, untill such time as he led me; and I laid him, under the ground in Windsor-Castle, in the Sepulcher of his Fathers.

And it was a strange thing, that during the time that I was thus a bond-servant to his Lordship, which was for the space of 12 moneths thrice told; the difference in Religion never wrought the least diffe­rence in his disposals of trusts of the highest nature upon me, but his speeches often shewed his heart, & his often lending me his ear, that they were both as much mine, as any mans, of which (it seemes) His Majesty being informed, I must be the beetle-head, that must drive this wedge [Page 6] into the Royall stock; and was also told, that no man could make a divorce be­tween the Babilonish garment, and the wedge of gold, sooner then my self: to be brief, I was ingaged in the businesse; I could neither deny the imployment, nor well tell how to go about it, I not know­ing the Marquesses drift all this while, thought the Marquesse had feared nothing more, then what I my self was most afraid of, viz. That I should be made an instru­ment, to let the same horse bleed, whom the King Himself had found so free, that he was unwilling to give him the least touch with his spur: howsoever I went a­bout it, and thus began to tell his Lord­ship; My Lord: the thing that I feared, is now fallen upon me; I am made the unwelcome messenger of bad newes, the King wants money: at which word, the Marquesse interrupted me, saying, hold Sir, that's no newes: go on with your businesse: my Lord (said I) there is one comfort yet, that as the King is brought low, so are his demands; and like His Army, are come down, from thousands to hundreds; and from paying the Souldiers of His Ar­my, to buying bread for Himself and His followers: My Lord, it is the Kings owne [Page 7] expression, and His desire is but three hun­dred pound: whereupon my Lord made a long pause, before he gave me one word of answer (I knowing by experience, that in such cases it was best leaving him to himself, and to let that nature that was so good, worke it self into an act of the highest charity, like the Diamond which is only pollished with its own dust) At last he called me nearer to him, and asked me, if the King Himself had spoken unto me con­cerning any such businesse: to which I answe­red, that the King Himself had not, but others did, in the Kings hearing; where­upon he said, might I but speak unto Him (but I was never thought worthy to be consulted with, though in matters meerly concerning the affaires of my own Country) I would supply His wants, were they never so great, or whatsoever they were: whereupon I told his Lordship, that if the King knew as much, he might quickly speak with Him: then said the Marquesse, the way to have Him know so much, is to have some body to tell Him of it: I asked his Lord­ship, if he would give me leave to be the informer: he told me he spake it to the same purpose; I hastened from him, with as much fear of being called back againe, as I did towards the King, with a long­ing [Page 8] desire of giving His Majestie so good an account, of my so much doubted em­bassie.

Half going, and halfe running through the Gallerie, I was stopt in my way, by one Lieutenant Collonel Syllard, who told me, that if ever I had a mind to do My Lord Marquess, and the Garison, any good, now was the time: for even now, one of the Kings Ships, had run her self on ground, under the Towne of Chepstow: Calling unto me the Captain of her (one Captain Hill,) who related unto me, that upon the surrender of Bristol, he was forced to fly into the sanctuarie, of the Kings Quarters, having formerly revolted from the Parliament, (or rather returned to her due obedience) telling me, moreover, that she was fraught with store of goods, and rich commodities, as Sugar, Tobacco, Linnen of all sortes, &c. and that the Law in such a case appropriated the King, to such a part of her lading, which I better understood then, then I can relate unto you now, & that she had many fair brass, and iron Guns, in her, with proportion­able Ammunition, usefull for the Garison, and that for a word speaking, I might have all this of the King, for the use of [Page 9] the Garison, I (considering, that it would be neverthelesse the Kings, for being con­verted to such an use, as also the business I was about) made no doubt, but that I should easily beg all this for the Marquess, in Consideration of the great charges, his Lordship had been at, in entertaining His Majestie so long: neither was I de­ceived, for the King granted it willingly.

But as to the matter in hand, I told His Majestie (a part) that I had moved his Lordship in matter of money, but found him a little discouraged, in regard, that His Majestie having been twice at Ragland, a moneth at a time, and that at neither of those times, he ever vouchsafed his Lordship so much honour, as once to call him to Councel, though it was in his own house, and must needs be acknowledged, to be one who knew the Countrey and the Constitution of the inhabitants, better then any other man, that was about His Majestie, had reason to understand; where­fore I told the King, I thought his Lord­ship lent my motion a deffer ear, then he would have done, if his Lordship had not been thought so uselesse a creature: and that I perceived his Lordship had a de­sire to have some conference with His Ma­jestie, [Page 10] which being obtained, I believed, His Majesties request would be easily grant­ed, and his expectations answered, in a higher measure, then it may be His Ma­jestie did believe. The King said, with­all my hart: and as to the other businesse, which so much troubles my Lord, in troth I have thought it a neglect in Us hereto­fore: but the true reason, why I did for­bear to do so, was, because I thought, my Lord of Worcester, did not desire it; by reason of his retiredness, unwildiness of body, and unwillingnesse of mind to stir abroad; and therefore I thought it a con­tentment to him, to be let alone. I told his Majestie, that I did verily believe, that His Majestie was in the right, in both respects, both of His Majesties, and his Lordships: and that if His Majestie had called him to Councel, I do verily be­lieve, his Lordship would have desired, to have been excused, but yet he did expect, he should have been called: whereupon the King said, I pray tell my Lord of Wor­cester, that I did not forbear that respect unto him, out of any disestimation I had, either of his wisedome, or loyaltie, but out of some reasons I had to my self, which indeed reflected as much upon my [Page 11] Lord, as they did on me. For had he used to have come to the Councel board, it would have been said, that I took no o­ther Councel, but what was conveighed unto me, by Jesuites, by his Lordships meanes: and I pray tell him, that that was the true cause. I told His Majestie that I would, and that I thought it an easie mat­ter to cause him to believe no less, but withall, I intimated to His Majestie, that I knew, the Marquess had an earnest desire to have some private Conference with His Majestie, this night. Which if granted, it might conduce very much to His Majesties behoof. The King said, how can that be? I told His Majestie, that my Lord had con­trived it before his comming to the Castle, and told His Majestie of the privacie of the convieghance, and that therefore his Lord­ship had appointed that for his Bed-cham­ber, and not in the great Tower, which was the roome he most esteemed of in all the Castle. Hereat His Majestie smil'd, and said, I know my Lords drift, well enough: either he meanes to chide me, or else to convert me to his Religion. Whereupon I told His Majestie: I doubted not, but that His Majestie was temptation proof as well as he was correction-free, and that he [Page 12] might returne the same man, he went, having made a profitable Exchange, of gold, and silver, for words and sleepe, at which the King suddenly replyed: I never received any of the Marquess gold, but it was all weight, and I would have my words to be so with him, which cannot be, because I have no time to weigh the matter, much less the words, that I shall speak concerning it; I must expect to find my Lord very well prepared, and all the force that is in argument against me. Had I been a ware of it, or could stay, I would have taken some days labour, to have been as hard for my Lord as I could, and not to have given him such an extemporarie meeting, as both of us must be faine to steale from sleep. Sir, said I, I am imployed by you both, and I must do Your Majesties service as I may. This way I can, otherwise I know not. I do not think his Lordship expects disputation, but audience; what he hath to say I know not, neither did I know, that he had any such intention, un­till the time that I mov'd his Lordship in Your Majesties behalf; Well, said the King, my Lords desires are granted, and if he have any such intention, I hope to let him know, that I will not be of a Religion, that I am not able to defend against any man; and let me heare from you con­cerning the time and place. So I departed his [Page 13] presence, giving this pleasing account unto the Marquess, who transported with joy, commanded me to hast unto the King, and tell him, that at eleven of the clocke that night he would not faile to attend His Majestie in such a place, whether he had given me direction to light His Majestie, which place of meeting was known by the name of my Lord Privy-seales Chamber, who was father to this Marquess, and died in it, wherefore this Marquess would ne­ver suffer any man to lie in it afterwards, or scarce any body, so much as to come into it, which was the reason, why this Chamber, at this time, was so conve­niently empty, when all the roomes in the Castle were more then full. And withall his Lordship instructed me to at­tend near upon the time, in the with­drawing room, which was next unto his Lordships Bed-chamber, and to clear the Parlour, and the withdrawing room, if any Companie should chance to sit up so long, which was usuall at that time, through both which rooms my Lord of Worcester was to passe, unto the place ap­pointed: where, when I had once brought him, I should leave him, and wait for the Kings comming forth, giving me the [Page 14] Key of his Bed-chamber, wherewith he used alwayes to locke himself in, and never to his last would suffer any man to lie in the same Chamber with him, which happened well for the private managerie of the businesse. And that in the in­terim, he would lie down upon the bed, and see if he could take a nap. I pro­mised his Lordship, that I would be pun­ctuall in my endeavours; onely I made this Objection unto his Lordship, that it might be, that it might prove, more then I could performe at such a precise time, as we were necessitated unto; if they should be either unwilling, or think it strange, to be hurried away all upon a suddaine; and besides, so doing would draw suspition with it, that may set watch-men over the event of our affaires; whereat the Marquess hastily made answer, I will tell you what you shall do, so that you shall not need to fear any such thing, go unto the Yeomen of the Wine-seller, and bid him leave the Keyes of the Wine-seller with you, and all that you find in your way, invite them down into the seller, and shew them the Keyes, and I warrant you, you shall sweep the room of them if their were a hundred. And [Page 15] when you have done, leave them there. I thought that Objection sufficiently salved, so took my leave, disposing my self to a removeall of all the blocks, that might be cast in our way, I found not any. The time drawing near, that the Domi­nicall Letter was to dispute with the gol­den Number, I opened the Marquesses door, so softly (fearing, to wake the two young Gentlemen which waited upon my Lord, and were in bed and a sleep in the next roome, through which we were to passe, and were resolved to put it to a venture, whether we could do so, or no, but we past and repast, without any their taking the least notice of us,) that the Marquess himself did not hear me, when I came to him, I found him a sleep, whom I so wakened, by de­grees, that he would needs perswade me, that he had not slept at all. Yet telling him how the time was come wherein he was to meet the King; in a mazement and a kind of horrour, he as­ked me, what time? and what King? at first, I thought it so strange to him, because he was as yet but a stranger to himself, as not being throughly awaked; but when I saw his fears begin to increase, by how much [Page 16] the more he came to himself, and to lay stronger and stronger hold upon him, ex­pressing a great deal of unwillingnesse, to that which he formerly so much desired; and with such a kind of reluctancy, as might very well spread an appearance of some remorse: I my self began to be a fraid of being made an instrument in a designe, that carried with it, such a conflict within the bosome of the actor; untill my second thoughts, banished my first appre­hension, and seconded my confidence of his Lordships innocence, being confirmed by this following expression of his, God blesse us all: what if we should be discovered? what construction would they make of our doings? what advantage would they be ready to take of such constructions? what if this harmlesse and innocent designe of mine, should be thought a Conspiracy, such a one as Gowries? then they will take an occasion to Plunder me of all that I have: I protest I never thought of this, I wish I never had attempted any such thing: where­upon I told his Lordship: that it was too late now to entertaine any such fears, nei­ther was there any ground for any such jealousie: whereat the Marquess replyed fie, fie, I would to God that I had let it alone. I perceiving this tergiversation to pro­ceed [Page 17] out of an awfulnesse, which his loyal hart, ever carried with it, towards His sacred Majestie, which might very well raise doubts of a high nature, out of the manner of the fact, thus spake unto his Lordship: My Lord, you know your own heart hest, if there be nothing in your intentions but wbat is good, and justifiable, you need not fear, if otherwise; it is never too late to repent; at which words the Marquess seemed to be much troubled, saying, Ah! Doctor, I thought I had been sure of one friend, and that you would never have harboured the least suspition of me, God knows my hart, I have no other intention towards His Majestie, then to make Him a glorious Man here; and a glorified Saints hereafter. Then (said I) my Lord, shake off these fears together with the drowsinesse that begat them: Hony soit qui male pense, O (said my Lord) but I am not of that order, but I thank God, I weare that motto about my heart, to as much purpose, as they who weare it ahout their armes: and began to be a little pleasant, and took a pipe of Tobacco, and a little glass full of Aqua Mirabilis, and said, come now, let us go in the name of God, crossing him­self, I had no sooner brought my Lord to the door of the meeting Chamber, but the Clocke struck a eleven, whereupon I [Page 18] presently left my Lord (in the portall, where he would needs be, untill such time as the King were entered the room, and should send for him in) and went to the place where I was to expect the King, ac­cording to the Intimation, which I had formerly given His Majestie. I had not been long there, before His Majestie came forth, saying unto me, softly: I have escaped one danger, none within my Chamber knowes of my comming abroad, this night: to which I answered, that if it were discover­ed, I hope there is nothing in the exploit so dangerous, as to deserve such a word, which His Majestie made answer (as I wait­ed upon His Majestie) Misprisions, evil Constru­ctions, and false Judgements, are dangers worth escaping at any time, and therefore, where I run a hazard, I alwayes escape a danger. They who carrie onely their own eyes in their head, and have no other upon them, may go which way they please; but he that hath all the peoples eyes upon him, must looke which way he goes, (by this time His Majestie was come into the Chamber, who continuing on his saying, spake fur­ther) neither is it sufficient for him to lead theirs, according to the perspicuitie, and quickness of his own, but he must allow them, the abatements, which either the Distance of the Object, the In­disposition [Page 19] of the Organ, or the Mis-disposition of some bad Mediums may require in vulgar Spirits, by reason of their incapacitie of looking further then apparence. I answered the King in these words, May it please your most excellent Majestie, to give me leave, to speak under the highest Correction, I conceive these to be singular good Caveats, & Antidotes against reall evill; but not against appa­rances, for the King of Kings, and Saviour of the world, sought not to avoid them, but was contented to be accounted a friend to Publicans, and a Sinner himself, so that he might unlade them of their sins, & to be thought a bibber of their wine, so that he might infuse into them his Divine grace; desiring his Majestie to pardon me, further, in regard, that I had left my Lord Marquess in the dark. O (said the King) you should have spoke sooner, bring him in: I left His Ma­jestie, and brought in the Marquess, who comming in, leaning upon my arm, (as he used to do,) he thus merrily began the Discourse.

THE CONFERENCE.

SIr, I hope if they catch us in the act, it will not be deem'd in me an act of so high Conspiracy, in regard that I enter the lists, leaning upon a Doctor of your own Church.

To whom the King reply'd a (as mer­rily) C. R. My Lord, I know not whether I should have a better opi­nion of your Lordship, for the Do­ctors sake, or a worse opinion of the Doctor for your Lordships sake, for though you leane much upon his arme, yet he may leane more upon your judgement.

Sir, It conduceth a little to the purpose we have in hand, to be a little serious in the thing you speak of, your [Page 21] Majesty knowes the grounds of my ac­quaintance with the Doctor, and my ob­ligation to him, which difference in opi­nion, shall never mittigate in point of affection; but I protest unto you, I could never gaine the least ground of him yet, in perswading him from his principles.

It may be your Lordship hopes to meet with a weaker Dispu­tant of me.

Not so, and if it please your Majesty, but I thinke thus: that if it should please God to make me so happy an instrument of his Churches good, as to be a meanes to incline your Royall heart to imbrace the truth; I believe that he, and thousands such as he, would be soon brought to follow your Majesty in the right way, who are so constant fol­lowers of your steps whilst you are in a wrong path: the oathes which they have taken, the relation which their Hyrar­chy have to the Crown, which must be no longer so, but whilst the government of the Church and soules, stand as a re­serve [Page 22] to the regiment of lives and for­tunes, the preferment which they expect from your Majesty, and the enjoyment of those preferments which they have al­ready, which they must no longer enjoy, then whilst they are, or seeme to be of your opinion, causeth them to smother their own knowledge, whilst their mouthes are stopt with interest, where­as if the strong tide of your Majesties o­pinion were but once turn'd, all the ships in the river, would soon turne head:

Hereupon the Marquesse abruptly fell from his subject, and asked the King, Sir, I pray tell me what is it that you want? The King smiled a little at his sodaine breaking off, and making such preposterous haste to aske that question, answered.

My Lord, I want an Army, can you help Me to one?

Yes, that I can: and to such a one, as should your Majesty commit your self to their fidelity, you should be a Conquerour, fight as often as you please.

[Page 23]

My Lord, such an Army would do the businesse: I pray let me have it.

What if your Majesty would not confide in it, when it should be pre­sented unto you?

My Lord, I would faine see it, and as faine confide in that, of which I had reason to be confi­dent.

Take Gidions three hundred men and let the rest begon.

Your Lordship speaks mi­stically, will it please you to be plaine a little.

Come I see I must come nearer to you: Sir, It is thus, God expected a worke to be done by your hands, but you have not answered his expectation, nor his mercy towards you, when your Enemies had more Cities and Garisons, then you had private families to take your part, when they had more Cannon then you had Muskets; when the people crowded to heap treasures agaidst you, [Page 24] whilst your Majesties friends were faine here and there to make a gathering for You, when they had Navies at Sea, whilst Your Majesty had not so much as a Boat upon the River; whilst the odds in num­ber against you was like a full crop a­gainst a gleaning, then God wrought his miracle, in making Your gleaning big­ger then their vintage; he put the pow­er into your hand, and made You able to declare Your self a true man, to God, and gratefull to Your friends; but like the man whom the Prophet makes men­tion of, who bestowed great cost and paines upon his vineyard, and at last it brought forth nothing but wilde grapes; so when God had done all these things for You, and expected that You should have given his Church some respit to their op­pressions, I heard say, You made vowes that if God blest You but that day with Nazeby Fight. Victory, you would not leave a Catholike in Your Army; for which I fear the Lord is so angry with You, that (I am afraid) he will [Page 25] not give you another day wherein you may so much as trie your fortune: Your Majesty had forgot the monies which came unto you from unknown hands, and were brought unto you by unknown faces, when yau promised you would ne­ver forsake your unknown friends; you have forgotten the miracalous blessings of the Almighty upon those beginnings, and how have you discountenanc'd, di­strusted, dis-regarded, I, and disgra­ced the Catholiques all along, and at last vowed an extirpation of them: Doth not your Majesty see clearly, how that in the two great Battailes, the North and Nazeby, God shewed signes of his displeasure, when in the first, your E­nemies were even at your mercy, confu­sion fell upon you and you lost the day, like a man that should so wound his Ene­mies, that he could scarce stand, and afterwards his own sword should fly out of the hilt, and leave the strong and skilfull, to the mercy of his falling ene­mies; and in the second (and I fear me [Page 26] the last Battaile that e're you'le fight) whilst your men were crying victory, as I hear they had reason so to do, your sword broke in the aire, which made you a fugitive to your flying enemies: Sir, I pray pardon my boldnesse, for it is Gods cause that makes me so bold, and no in­clination of my own to be so, and give me leave to tell you, that God is angry with you, and will never be pleased, un­till you have taken new resolutions con­cerning your Religion: which I pray God direct you, or else you'le fall from nought to worse, from thence to no­thing.

My Lord, I cannot so much blame as pitty your zeal; the sound­nesse of Religion is not to be tried by dint of sword, nor must we judge of her truthes by the prosperity of events, for then of all men Christi­ans would be most miserable; we are not to be thought no followers of Christ, by observations drawne from what is crosse or otherwise, but [Page 27] by taking up our crosse and follow­ing Christ; neither do I remember my Lord, that I made any such vow before the Battaile of Nazeby concer­ning Catholiques, but some satis­faction I did give my Protestant Subjects, who on the other side were perswaded that God blest us the worse for having so many Papists in our Army.

The difference is not great, I pray God forgive you, who have most rea­son to aske it.

I think not so my Lord.

Who shall be judge?

I pray my Lord, let us sit down, and let reason take her seat.

Reason is no judge.

But she may take her place.

Not above our Faith.

But in our arguments.

I beseech your Majesty to give me a reason why you are so much offended with our Church?

[Page 28]

Truly my Lord, I am much offended with your Church, if you meane the Church of Rome, if it were for no other reason, but this, for that she hath foisted into her legend, so many ridiculous stories, as are able to make (as much as in them lies) Chri­stianitie it self a fable, whereas if they had not done this wrong un­to the tradition of the primative Church, we then had left unto us such rare and unquestionable veri­ties, as would have adorned, and not dawb'd the Gospel, whereas now we know not, what is true, or false.

Sir, if it be allowed to que­stion, what the Catholick Church holds out for truth, because that which they hold forth unto us seemes ridiculous, and to picke and chuse verities accord­ing to our own fancie, and reject as no­velties and forgeries what we please, as impossibilities and fabulous. The Scri­ptures themselves may as well suffer by this kind of tolleration, for what more [Page 29] ridiculous then the Dialoge between Ba­laam and his Ass, or that Sampsons strenght should be in his hair, or that he should slay a thousand men with the Jaw­bone of an Ass. The Disputation betweeen Saint Michael and the Devil about the body of Moses; Philip's being taken up in the air, and found at Aroties with a thousand the like strange, and to our apprehension (if we look upon them with carnall eyes) vaine and ridiculous, but being they are recorded in Scripture, which Scripture we hold for truth, we admire, but never question them; so the fault may not be in the tradition of the Church, but in the libertie, which men assume to themselves to question the tra­dition. And I beseech Your Majestie, to consider the streakes that are drawne over the Divine writ, as so many de­lenda's by such bold hands as those: the Testaments were not like the two Tables, delivered into the hands of any Moses, by the immediate hand of God, neither by the Ministration of Angels, but men [Page 30] inspired with the holy Ghost writ, whose writings by the Church were approved to be by inspiration, which inspirations were called Scripture, which Scriptures most of them as they are now received into our hands, were not received into the Cannon of the Church, all, within three hundred years after Christ, why may not some bold spirits call all those scriptures, (which were afterwards ac­knowledged to be Scripture, & were not before) forgeries. Nay have not some such (as blind as bold) done it already? Saint Hier was the first that ever pickt a hole in the Scriptures, and cut out so many books out of the word of God, with the penknife, of Apoccrypha, Ruffinus challengeth him for so doing, and tells him of the gap, that he hath opened for wild beasts to enter into this field of the Church, and tread down all ill corn. Jerom gives his reasons, because they were not found in the Originall Copie, (as if the same spirit which gave to those, whom it did inspire the diversities of [Page 31] tongues, should it self be tied to one language) but withall he acknowledgeth this much of those books, which he had thus markt in the forehead, Canonici sunt ad informandos mores, sed non ad confirmandam fidem, how poor a Distinction this is, and how pernitious a president this was, I leave it to Your Majestie, to judge: for after him Luther takes the like boldness, and at once takes away the three Gospels, of Mark, Luke, and John; Others take away the epistle to the Hebrews, others the epistle of Saint Jude, others the second and third epistles of Saint Peter, others the epistle of Saint James, others the whole book of the Revelation. Wherefore to per­mit, what the Church proposes to be que­stionable by particular men, is to bring down the Church, the Scriptures, and the Heavens upon our heads; there was a Church, before there was a Scripture, which Scripture (as to us) had not been the Word of God, if the Church had not made it so by teaching us to believe it. [Page 32] The preaching of the Gospel was before the writing of the Gospell, the Divine Truth that dispersed it self over the face of the whole earth, before i'ts Divinitie was comprised within the Cannon of the Scri­pture, was like that Primeva Lux, which the world received before the light was gathered into the body of the Sun, this body so glorious and comfortable is but the same light, which was before, we cannot make it an other, though it be o­therwise, and therefore though the Church and the Scripture, like the light that is concomitant and precedent to the Sun, be distinct in tearms, yet they are but one & the same; no man can see the Sun, but by it's own light, shut your eyes from this light, and you cannot behold the body of the Sun. Shut your eyes a­gainst one, and you are blind in both, he never had God to be his Father, who had not the Church to be his Mother, if you admit Sillogismes, a priori, you will meet with many paralogismes, a posteriori cry down the Churches, Authoritie, & pull [Page 33] out the Scriptures efficacie, give but the Church the lie, now and then, and you shall have enough will tell you the Scri­pture is false here and there; they who have set so little by the tradition of the Church, have set by halfe the Scriptures, and will at last throw all away: where­fore in a word, as to denie any part of the Scripture, were to open a vain, so to que­stion any thing, which the Church pro­poses, is to teare the seamlesse Coat of Christ, and to pierce his body.

My Lord, I see you are bet­ter provided with Arguments then I am with memorie, to run through the series of your Discourse; satis­fie me but in one thing, and I shall soone yield to all that you have said, and that is concerning this Catho­lick Church you talke of, I know the creed tels us, that we must be­lieve it, and Christ tells us, that we must hear it, but neither tell us, that that is the Church of Rome.

Gratious Sir, the creed tells [Page 34] us, that it is the Catholick Church, and Saint Paul tells us in his epistle to the Romans, that their faith was spread abroad through the whole world.

That was the Faith, which the Romanes then believed, which is nothing to the Roman Faith, which is now believed.

The Romane Faith then and now are the same.

I denie that my Lord.

When did they alter their Faith?

That requires a librarie, neither is it requisite, that I tell you the time when, if the envious man sowes his tares, whilst the husband-man was asleep, and afterwards he awakes and sees the tares, are they not tares, because the hushand-man knowes not when they were sown?

And if it please Your Maje­stie in a thing, that is so apparent, your similitude holds good, but in the diffe­rences between us and the protestants are [Page 35] not so without dispute, as that it is yet granted by the major part of Christians, that they are errours which we believe contrary to Your Tenents; and therefore the similitude holds not, but I shall hum­bly intreat Your Majestie, to consider the proofes, which the learned Cardinal Peroone hath made concerning this particular, in his answer to Your Royall Father, his Apologie to all Christian Princes, where he proves, how that all the Tenents which are in controversie now between you and us, were practised in the Church of Christ, within the first three hundred years; wherefore I think, it would be no injury to reason to require belief, that that which hath been so long continued in the Church, and so univer­saly received, and no time can be set down, when those Tenents or Ceremonies did arise, must needs be Catholick for time and place, and Apostolical for in­stitution, though we have no warrant from the Scriptures, to believe them to be such. For the Apostle Saint Paul com­manded [Page 36] Timothy to keep fast the things which he had delivered unto him, as well by word as by writ. Where­fore if we will believe no tradition, we may come at last to believe no writings.

That was your own fault, wherefore I blame your Church, for the way to make the Scriptures not believed, were to adde unto them new inventions, and say they were Scriptures.

If the Church of Christ had so mean esteeme then, as amongst some, she hath now, certainly the former books received into her Cannon, would have been much prejudiced by the admittance of the latter, wherefore if the Church be questionable, then all is brought in que­stion.

My Lord, you have not sa­tisfied me, where this Church is: and as concerning the Cardinals book, I have seen it, and have read a part of it, but do not remember, neither do I believe, that he hath prov'd that which you say.

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It may be the proofes were in that part of the book, which Your Ma­jestie did not read, and as for my pro­ving the Romane Church to be this Church, by which we should be all guided, I thus shall do my endeavour, That Church whose Doctrine is most Catholick and universall, must be the Catholick Church: but the Romane Church is such. Ergo.

My Lord, I denie your Mi­nor, the Romane Church is not more universall, the Grecian Church is far more spreading; and if it were not, it were no Argument, for the Church of the Mahumetanes, is larger then both.

First, This is no Argument, either for an English Man, or a Prote­stant, but for a Grecian, or Mahume­tane, not for an English Man, be­cause he received his Conversion from Rome, and therefore he in Reason should not look beyond Rome, or the Doctrine that Rome practised then, [Page 38] when they converted England, nor for a Protestant, because he is as far di­stant from the Grecian Church in mat­ter of opinion, as from the Romane; and therefore he need not look for that which he hath no desire to find: besides, the Greek Church hath long ago submit­ted to the Church of Rome, and there is no reason, that others should make Arguments for her, who are not of her, when she stands in no competition her self; besides, there is not in any place where ever the Greek Church is, or hath been planted, where there are not Ro­mane Catholicks; but there are di­vers Countreys in Christendome, where there is not one Professour of the Greek Church; neither is there a place in all the Turks Dominions, where there are not Romane Catholickes, nor in any part of the world, where there are not mul­titude of Romanes; neither is there a Protestant Countrey in Christendome, where there are not Roman Catholicks numberlesse, but not a Protestant a­mongst [Page 39] the Natives, neither of Spanie or Italy. Shew me but one Protestant Countrey in the world, who ever de­serted the Romane Faith, but they did it by Rebellion, except England, and there the King, and the Bishops were the principall reformers: (I pray God, they do not both suffer for it.) Shew me but one reformed Church, that is of the opinion of an other, ask an English Pro­testant, where was your Religion before Luther, and he will tell you of Hus and Jerom of Prag: search for their Te­nents, and you shall find them as far different from the English Protestant, as they are from one another; run to the Waldensis for your Religions antiquity, and you shall find as much differ­ence in their Articles, and ours, as can be between Churches that are most oppo­site. Come home to your own Countrey, and derive your descent from Wickliffe, and search for his Tenents in the book of Martyrs, and you shall find them quite contrary to ours, neither amongst any [Page 40] of your moderne Protestant shall you find any other agreement, but in this one thing, that they all protest against the Pope. Shew me but any Protestant Countrey in the world, where Reforma­tion, as you call it, ever set her foot, where she was not as well attended with sacri­ledge, as usher'd by Rebellion, and I shall lay my hand upon my mouth for ever.

My Lord, my Lord, you are gone beyond the scope of your Ar­gument, which required you to prove the Romane Church more Ca­tholick then the Greek, which you have not done; you put me off with my being English, and not a Grecian, whereas when we speak of the uni­versality of a Church, I think that any man who is belonging to the u­niverse, is objectum rationis. And if that be the manner of your Election, then I am sure most voices must carry it: for your alleaged submission of the Greek Church unto the Roman, I believe it cannot be prov'd, but it [Page 41] may be the Patriarch of Constanti­nople, may submit unto the Pope of Rome, and yet the Greek Church may not submit unto the Romane.

Sir, it is no dishonour for the Sun to make its progress from East to West, it is still the same Sun, and the difference is onely in the shadowes, which are made to differ according to the va­rieties of shapes, that the severall sub­stances are of; East and West are two di­visions, but the same day: neither can they be said or imagined to be greater, or more extending one or other, and the one may have the benefit of the Suns light, though the other may have its glo­ry; and I believe, no man of sober judge­ment can say, that any Church in the world is more generally spread over the face of the whole world, or that her glory shines in any place more conspi­cuously, then at this day in Rome.

My Lord, If externall glory be the Sun-shine of the Gospel, then the Church is there indeed; but if [Page 42] internall sanctity, & inward holyness be the Essences of a Church, then we may be as much to seek for such a Church within the Wals of Rome, as any where else.

Who shall be Judge of that? I pray, observe the Injustice and Errours that will arise, if every man may be ad­mitted, to be his own judge; you of the Church of England left your Mother the Church of Rome, and Mother to all the Churches round about. You forsook her, and set up a new Church of your own, In­dependent to her: there comes a new generation, and doth the like to you; and a third generation, that is likely to do the like to that; and the Church falls and falls, untill it falls to all the pieces of Independencie. It is a hard case for a part to fall away from the whole, and to be their own judges. Why should not Kent fall away from England, and be their own judges, as well as England fall away from Christendome, and be their own judges? why should not a Pa­rish [Page 43] in Kent fall away from the whole County, and be their own judges? why should not one Family fall away from the whole Parish, and be their own judges? why should not one man fall away in his opinion from that Family, and be his own judge? If you grant one, you must grant all; and I fear me in doing one, you have done all. So that every man dispiseth the Church, whilst he is a Church to himself; rayles against Popery, and is the greatest Pope himself, dispiseth the Fathers, and will enthrone his own judgement above the wisdome of the an­cient; refuseth Expositours, that he may have bis own sence; and if he can start up but some new opinions, he thinks himself as worthy a member of Christia­nity, as if he were an Apostle, to some new found land. Now Sir, though some do take the Church to be the Scriptures, yet the Scriptures cannot be the Church, because the Scriptures send us to the Church, audi Ecclesiam, dic Ecclesiae, others take, the Elect to be the Church, [Page 44] yet this cannot be, for we know not who are elect, and who not, that which must be the Church, must be a visible, an emi­nent societie of men, to whose Autho­ritie, in cases of appeale and matter of judgement, we are to acquiesse and sub­scribe. And I appeale to Your Royall heart, whether there be a Church in the world, to whom in these respects we ought to reverence, and esteeme more then the Church of Rome; and that the Church of Rome is externally glorious, it doth not follow, that therefore she is not internall holy; for the Kings daugh­ters clothing was of wrought gold, as well as she was all glorious within; and though she had never so many Divine graces within her, yet she had honour­able women without her, as her atten­dants: and for the question, whether this inward glory is to be so much sought for within the gates of Rome, is the que­stion: and not yet decided.

My Lord, Il'e deale as inge­niously with you as I can. When [Page 45] the Romane Monarch stretch'd forth his arms from East to West, he might make the Bishops of Roms oecumena­cy as large as was his Empire, and all the Churches in the world were bound to follow her Lawes and de­cretalls, because God hath made such Emperours, nursing Fathers of his Church, as it was prophesied by the Divine Esay; alwayes provided, that the child be not pourtractured greater then the Nurse, (as hath been observed by the pride of your Bi­shops of Rome,) but when the several Kingdoms of Christendom shook off the Roman Yoke; I see no reason why the Bishop of Rom should expect obe­dience from the Clergie of other Con­treies, any more then the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury should expect obedience from the Clergie of other Kingdoms. And for your deriving your Autho­rity from Saint Peter; I have no rea­son, why we may not as well derive our Authority from Simon Zelotes, or [Page 46] Joseph of Arimathea, or from Philip, of whose planting the Gospel, we have as good warrant, as you have for Saint Peter, his planting the Gospel in Rome. But, my Lord, I must tell you, that there are other Objections to be made against your Church, which more condemns her, if these were answered.

May it please Your Majestie, to give me leave to speak a word or two, to what I have said, and then I shall humbly beg Your further Objections, as to that of the Christian Kingdomes, shaking of the Roman Yoake and falling to pieces, which was so prophesied it should, yet the Church should not do so, because it is said it shall remaine in uni­tie, and for Your Majesties Objection concerning Simon Zelotes, Joseph of Arimathea, &c. It is answered, that there were two conversions, the first of the Brittains, the second of the Saxons; we onely require this Justice from you, as you are English, not Welch-men, for [Page 47] the Church of England, involves all the Brittains within her Communion: for the Brittains have not now any distinct Church from the Church of England. Now if Your Majestie please, I expect your further Objections.

My Lord, I have not done with you yet, though particular Churches may fall away in their se­verall respects of obedience to one supreme Authority, yet it followes not, that the Church should be there­by divided, for as long as they agree in the unity of the same spirit, and the bond of peace, the Church, is still at unitie, as so many sheaves of corne are not unbound, because they are severed. Many sheaves may be long to one field, to one man, and may be carried to one barne, and be ser­vient to the same table. Unity may consist in this as wel as in being hud­led up together in a ricke with one cocke-sheave above the rest. I have a hundred pieces in my pocket, [Page 48] I find them something heavie, I di­vide the sum, halfe in one pocket, and halfe in an other: and subdivide them afterwards in two severall les­ser pockets; The moneys is divided, but the sum is not broke, the hun­dred pounds is as whole as when it was together, because it belongs to the same man, and is in the same pos­session; so though we divide our selves from Rome, if neither of us di­vide our selves from Christ, we agree in him, who is the Center of all unitie, though we differ in matter of depending upon one another. But my Lord of Worcester, we are got into such a large field of discourse, that the greatest Schollers of them all can sooner shew us the way in, then out of it; therefore, before we go too far, let us retire, lest we lose our selves; and therefore, I pray my Lord, satisfie me in these particulars: Why do you leave out the second Commandment, and cut another in [Page 49] too? why do you with-hould the Cup from the Laytie? why have you seven Sacraments, when Christ instituted but two? why do you abuse the World with such a fable, as Purgatory, and make ignorant fooles believe, you can fish soules from thence with silver hookes? why do you pray to Saints, and wor­ship Images? Those are the offences which are given by your Church of Rome unto the Church of Christ; of these things I would be satisfied.

Sir, Although the Church be undefiled, yet she may not be spotless, to several apprehensions: for the Church is compared to the Moon, that is full of spots; but they are but spots of our fan­cying; though the Church be never so cumly, yet she is described unto us to have black eye-browes, which may to some be as great an occasion of dislike, as they are to others foyles, which set her off more lovely. We must not make our fancies, judgements of condemnation to [Page 50] her, with whom Christ so much was ra­vished. For Your Majesties Objections, and first, as to that of leaving out the second Commandment, and cutting ano­ther in two; I beseech Your Majesties, who called them Commandments? who told you they were ten? who told you which were first, and second, &c. The Scripture onely called them words: those words, but these: and these words were never divided in the Scriptures into ten Commandments, but two Tables. The Church did all this, and might as well have named them twenty as ten Com­mandments; that which Your Majestie calls the second Commandment, is but the explanation of the first, and is not razed out of the Bible, but for brevitie sake in the mannualls it is left out, as the rest of the Commandment is left out concerning the Sabbath, and others: wherefore the same Church which gave them their Name, their Number, and their Distin­ction, may in their breviats, leave out what she deems to be but exposition: and [Page 51] deliver what she thinks for substance, without any such heavie charge as being blottable, out of the book of life, for de­minishing the word of God.

For withholding the Cup from the Laytie; where did Christ, either give or command to be given, either the bread or the wine to any such? drink you all of this: but they were all Apostles to whom he said so; There were neither lay men, or women, there: If the Church al­lowed them afterwards to receive it ei­ther in one, or both kinds: they ought to be satisfied therewith, accordingly: but not question the Churches her Actions. She that could alter the Sabbath into the Lords day, and change the dipping of the baptised over head and eares in water, to a little sprinkling upon the face, (by reason of some immergencies, & inconveniencies, occasioned by the dif­ference of Seasons, and Countryes) may upon the like occasion, accordingly, dispose of the manner of her Administration of her Sacraments. Neither was this done [Page 52] without great reason the world had not wine in all her Countries, but it had bread. Wherefore it was thought for uni­formity sake (that they might not be un­like to one another, but all receive alike, that they should onely receive the bread, which was to be had in every place, and not the Cup, in regard, that wine was not every where to be had. I wonder that any body should be so much offended at any such thing, for bread and wine do signifie Christ crucified; I appeale to com­mon reason, if a dead body doth not re­present a passion, as nuch, as if we saw the bloud lie by it. If you grant the Churches Power in other matters, and rest satisfie therein, why do you boggle at this? especially, when any Priest (where wine is to be had) if you desire it, he will give it you. But if upon every mans call, the Church should fall to re­forming upon every seeming fault, which may be but supposed to be found, the people would never stop, untill they had made such a through Reformation in all [Page 53] parts, as they have done in the greatest part of Germany, where there is not a man to preach, or hear the Gospel, to eat the bread, or drink the wine: you never pickt so mony holes in our Coates, as this licentiousness hath done in yours.

For our seven Sacraments, she that cal­led the Articles of our Faith 12, the Bea­titudes 8, the Graces 3, the Virtues 4, called these 7, & might have called them 17, if she had thought it meet. A Sacra­ment is nothing else but what is done with a holy mind, and why Sacrament either in Name, or Number, should be confind to Christs onely Institution, I see no cause for it; If I can prove that God did insti­tute such a thing in Paradise, (as he did marriage) shall not I call that a Sacra­ment as well as what was instituted by Christ, when he was upon the Earth? If Christ institutes the Order of giving & receiving the holy Ghost, shall not I call this the Sacrament of Orders? If Christ injoyns us all repentance, shall we not say repentance is a Sacrament? If Christ [Page 54] blesseth little children, and saith, Suf­fer them to come unto me and forbid them not; shall we not say, that such Confirmation is a Sacrament? Truly I do not understand their meaning; They have taken away five, which five, either by God or Christ, or the holy Ghost (who are all one) were instituted; and yet they say, they are not Sacraments, because they were not instituted by Christ: And the two that are left viz. baptisme and the Lords Supper; for the first, you hold it necessary to Salvation; and for the second, you do not admit the reall pre­sence: so that of the two remaining, you have taken away the necessitie of the one, and the reality of the other, so fare well all.

Now for Purgatory, I do believe, we have as good ground for it out of this place of Scripture, viz. He shall be purged, yet so as if it were by fire: as you can prove a Hell out of this place of Scripture: He shall be cast into ut­ter darkness, and into the lake that [Page 55] burneth with fire and brimstone, where shall be weeping and knatch­ing of teeth. Neither can you make more exceptions to our inference out of this place of Scripture, to prove Pur­gatory, then the Atheist (if wits may be permitted to roame in such things, as these once setled (and believed general­ly) will find ground enough to quarrell at your burning lake; and the vaine Philo­sopher, Contradictions enough, in the de­scription, of the effects of those hellish Torments, viz. weeping and knashing of teeth: the one having its procedure from heat, the other from cold, which are meer Contradictions, and therefore fabulous; take heed, we do not take away Hell, in removing of Purgatory. You see not, how your laughing at Purgatory hath caused such laughing at Hell, and Devils; untill at last, you shall see them bid the Hea­vens come down; and plucke the Al­mightie out of his Throne; If a Text of Scripture with the Churches Exposition be not sufficient for a man to rest, both [Page 56] his Science & Conscience upon: I know not where it will find a resting place, it may shoot at Random, but never take so right an ayme; and for the silver hooke you talk'd of, I do not justifie the abuse of any, I know there is a great difference between the Court of Rome, and the Church of Rome, and if these Errours were in the Church it self, yet the tares must not be hastily pluckt out of the field of the Church, least the wheat be pluckt up with it.

Now for our praying to Saints, there is no body that prayes to any Saints, otherwise then as we on earth desire the benefit of one anothers prayers. We do not believe, that they can help us (of themselves) or that they have power to forgive sin, but we believe that they are nearer to God, his favour & more dear un­to him: and therefore we believe, that he will hear them with, or for us, sooner then he will hear us when we pray upon our own account: as we desire the prayers of some good and holy man, (whom we [Page 57] believe to be so) hoping it will be a benefit unto us; all that can be said against it, is, that they do not hear us. I will not trouble Your Majestie with the School­mens Speculum Creatoris, but I shall desire to be plaine, when there is joy in heaven over every sinner that repen­teth: do you think that the Saints which are there, are ignorant of the oc­casion of that joy? or do they rejoyce at they know not what? If the Saints in heaven do crie, how long Lord, how long holy and just, dost thou not avenge our bloud upon them, which dwell upon the earth: if they know that their bloud is not yet avenged, do they not know when a sinner is converted? and if they know the time of conversion, do they not know the time of prayer? If Abraham knew that there were such men as Mo­ses and the Prophets, who was dead so many hundreds of years before their time, can we say, that they are ignorant? think ye, that those ministring Angels who are called Intelligencers, give them no [Page 58] intelligences? or that they gather no­thing of intelligence by looking him in the face, who is the fullness of know­ledge, and to all these the practise and opinion of so Catholick a Church; God can onely forgive sins, Christ can onely mediat, but Saints, whether in heaven, or on the earth, may intercede for one an­other.

Lastly, for our worshipping of Images: confounded be all they that worshipped them, for me, God is onely worthy to be worshipped; but if I kneel before the Picture of my Saviour, I worship him kneeling before his Picture; the worship is in the heart, and not in the knee, and where the true God is in the intention, there can be no idolatrie.

O Sir, Christian Religion is not a Pro­testation, but a Gospel: it would better consist with unity, then opposition: we hold it a peece of popery to knocke our own breasts with the fists of constitution, whilst we hold it most Evangelicall, to knocke at our neighbours with a Coun­stables [Page 59] staff: a pious care in a mother Church, labours to educate her own daughter, and having fed her at her own breasts, all the gratitude she returns her mother, is to call her whore, Anti­christ, Babylon, and all the spitefull and vile names that can be imagined, they for­get that saying of the Apostle St. James: If any man among you seeme to be religious, & bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, that mans Religion is in vaine; Pure Re­ligion, and undefiled before God, and the Father, is this: to visit the father­lesse and widows, in their affli­ction, and to keep himself unspot­ted from the world. What should I say more, the Scriptures are made a nose of wax, for every bold hand to wring it which way he pleaseth, they are rejected by private men, by whole books, The Articles of our Creed are said not to be of the Apostle framing, the command­ments not belonging to Christians, im­possible to be kept, the Sacraments de­nied; [Page 60] Charity not onely grown cold, but quite starved, and they will be sav'd by meanes, quite contrary to what the Gospel (which they seeme to profess) sets down, viz. by Faith without good works, onely believe & thats enough, where as the holy Apostle Saint James tells us, that faith profiteth nothing without good works—

Here the Marquess was going on, and His Majestie interrupted him.

My Lord, you let a flood-gate of Arguments out, against my naked breast, yet it doth not bear me any thing backwards; you have spoken a great many things, that no way concerns Us, but such, as we find fault with, as much as you, and other things, to which I could easily give answer, If I could take but some of that time and leasure that you have taken to compose your Arguments. It is not onely the Picture of our Sa­viour, but the Pictures of Saints which you both worship, and adore, and maintaine it to be lawfull and [Page 61] not onely so, but the Picture of God the Father, like an old man, and ma­ny other things which I forbear, be­cause I fear, you have done your self more hurt then me good, in depri­ving your self of the rest, to which you are accustomed; for whilst our Arguments do multiplie our time lessons, to that of Saint James, where it is said, that faith profiteth no­thing without good works; I hope the Doctor here can tell you, that Saint Paul saith, that we are justified by Faith, and not by the works of the Law.

Sir, I believe the Doctor will neither tell Your Majestie, nor me, that Faith can justifie without works.

That question the Doctor can soon decide, what say you to it Doctor? you must speak now.

If it may please Your Majestie, it would be as great a disobedience to hold my peace, now I am commanded to speak, as it would have been a presumption in me to speak before I was commanded; [Page 62] I am so far from thinking that either Faith, without good works, or that good works, without Faith, can justifie: that I cannot Believe that there is such a thing as either. No more then I can imagine, that there may be a tree bearing fruit, without a root: or that the Sun can be up, before it be day: or that a fire can have no heat; for although it be possible, that a man may do some good without Faith, yet he cannot do good works with­out it; for though we may naturally in­cline to some goodnesse, as flowers and plants naturally grow to perfection; Yet this good cannot be said to be wrought by us, but by the hand of Faith; and Faith her self (where she is truly so) can no more stand still, then can the Sun in the Firma­ment or refuse to let her hight so shine before men, that they may see her good works, then the same Sun can appear in the same Firmament, and dart no beams. And whilst Faith and good works strive for the proprietie of Justification; I do believe, they both exclude a third, which hath more right to our Justification then either. For that which we call Justifica­tion by Faith, is not properly Justifica­tion: but onely an apprehension of it: as [Page 63] that vvhich we call Justification, by good works, is not properly Justification, but onely a Declaration of it, to be so: ex­empli gratia: I receive a pardon: my hand that receiv's it, doth not justifie; 'tis put in execution, and read in open Court, all this did not procure it me. Doubtless there is a reward for the righteous, doubtless there is a God that judgeth the Earth, wherefore upon this ground of belief, I work out my Sal­vation as well as I can: and do all the good that lies in my power. I do good works. Doubtless this man hath some reason for what he doth: it is because he hath store of Faith, which Believes, there is a God, and that that God will accept of his endea­vours, wherefore to him alone who hath given us Faith, and hath wrought all our good vvorks in us, can vve properly attri­bute the tearme of Justification: Justifica­tio apprehensiva, vve may conceive and beare in our hearts: Justificatio declarativa, vve may shevv vvith our hands: but Justifi­catio Effectiva, proper and effectuall Justifi­cation none can lay claim unto, but Christ alone that as our sins vvere imputed unto Christ, so his righteousness might be ours by imputation.

[Page 64]

Doctor, I thank you in this point, I believe you have reconciled us both.

May it please Your Majestie, if the venome vvere taken out, there is no vvound in the Churches body, but might soon be healed.

Hereat the Marquess some­what earnestly cried, Hould Sir, You have said well in one respect, but there are two wayes of Justification: in us, and two without us: Christ is a cause of Justification by his grace, and merits without us; and so we are justified by baptisme: and we are justified by the gifts of God in us, viz. Faith, Hope and Charitity.

Whereupon the King spake as quickly.

But my Lord, both Justifi­cations come from Christ, according to your own saying: that without us, by his grace and merit: that with­in us, by his gifts and favour; there­fore Christ is all in all, in the matter of Justification; & therefore though [Page 65] there were a thousand wayes, and meanes to our Justification: yet th [...]re is but one effectuall cause, and that is Christ.

How is it then, that we are called by the Apostle, Cooperarii Chri­sto? Fellow-workers, together with Christ?

The Doctor hath told you, how, already. If you lie wallowing in sin, and Christ helps you out, your reaching of him your hand is a working together with Christ; Yet for all that, it cannot be said, that you helped your self out of the ditch: for then there had been no need of Christ. Your apprehending the suc­cour that came unto you, no way at­tributes, the God have mercie to your self: no more, then the decla­ring your self to be alive, by action; is the cause of setting you upon your legg's, so that we may divide this threefold Justification, as Peter di­vided his three Tabernacles, here is [Page 66] one for Moses, and one for Elias: I pray let us have one for Christ, and let that be the chiefe.

And Reason good.

I wish that all Controversies betwixt you and Us were as well de­cided: I am fully satisfied in this point.

May it please Your Majestie: A great many Controversies between us and the Papists might be soon decided, if the Churches revennues (which were every where taken away, more or less, where differences in Religion, in several parts of the world, did arise in the Church) were not an obstacle of the reunion; like the stone, which the Crab cast into the Oyster, which hindred it from ever shut­ting it self again; like the division, which happened between the Greek and Latin Church▪ Photinus intrudes himself in­to the Patriarch-ship of Constantinople over the head of Ignatius, the lawfull Patriarch thereof, whom the Pope preserved in his Communion, and then the difference of the Procession of the holy Ghost, be­tween those two Churches, was fomented by the sayd Photinus: least the wound [Page 67] should heale to soone, and the patient should not be held long enough in cure, for the benefit of the Chyrurgion, Sacri­ledge hath brought more divisions then the nature of their causes have required: and the universities play with edged tools, whilst hungry stomacks run away with their meat; wherefore since Your Majestie was pleased to discharge the watch, that I had set before the door of my lips: I shall make bold to put Your Majestie in mind of houlding my Lord to the demand which Your Majestie once made unto his Lordship concerning the true Church; for if once that Question were througly determined, all Controversies not onely between Your Majestie & his Lordship, but also all the Controversies that ever were started, would soon be decided at a short race end, and without this, we take away the meanes of reconciliation. For I must confesse ingeniously (yet under the highest correction) that there is not a thing that I ever understood less, then that assertion of the Scriptures being judge of Contro­versies, though in some sence I must, and will acknowledge it: but not as it is a book consisting of papers, words, and let­ters; for as we commonly say in matters [Page 68] of civil differences, the Law shall be the Judge between us: we do not mean, that every man shall run unto the Law books, or that any Lawyer himself shall search his Law-cases, and thereupon possess him­self of any thing that is in question, be­tween him and another, without a legall trial and determination by lawfull Judges, constituted to that same purpose; In like manner saving knowledge and Divine Truths are the portion, that all Gods children layes fast claime unto: yet they must not be their own carvers, though it is their own meat, that is before them, whilst they have a mother at the table; They must not slight all Orders, Consti­tutions, Appeales and Rules of Faith! Sa­ving knowledge and Divine Truths, are not to be wrested from the Scripture by private hands, for then the Scripture were of private interpretation: which is against the Apostles Rule! neither are those undefiled incorruptible and imma­culate inheritances, which are reserved for us in heaven, to be conveighed unto us by any Privy-seales. For there is nothing more absurd, to my understanding, then to say, that the thing contested (which is the true meaning of the Scriptures) shall [Page 69] be Judge of the Contestation: no way inferiour to that absurditie, which would follow, would be this, if we should leave the deciding of the sence of the words of the Law, to the preoccupated understand­ing of one of the Advocates; neither is this all the absurditie that doth arise, up­on this Supposition: for if you grant this to one, you must grant it to any one, and to every one: if there were but two, how will you reconcile them both? If you grant that this judicature must be in many, there are many manyes, which of the manyes will you have? decide but that, and you satisfie all. For if you make the Scripture the Judge of Contro­versie, you make the reader Judge of the Scripture: as a man consists of a soul and body, so the Scripture consists of the let­ter and the sence, if I make the dead let­ter my Judge, I am the greatest, and sim­plest idolater in the world: it will tell me no more, then it told the Indian Empe­rour Powhaton, who asking the Jesuite, how he knew all that to be true which he had told him, and the Jesuite answering him, that Gods word did tell him so. The Emperour asked him, where it was? he shewed him his Bible. The Emperour [Page 70] after that he had held it in his hands a prittie while, answered, It tells me no­thing; But you will say, you can read, and so you will find the meaning out of the significant Character; and when you have done, as you apprehend it, so it must be; and so the Scripture is nothing else but your meaning: wherefore necessitie requires an external Judge, for determi­nation of differences besides the Scri­ptures. And we can have no better re­courses to any, then to such as the Scri­pture it self calls upon us to hear, which is the Church, which Church would be found out.

Doctor, Saint John in his first Epistle tells us, that the holy Scripture is that, to whose truth the Spirit beareth witness. And John the Evangelist tells us, that the Scri­pture is that which gives a greater Testimonie of Christ, then John the Baptist. Saint Luke tells us, that if we believe not the Scripture, we would not believe though one were risen from the dead: and Christ him­self, who raised men from death to [Page 71] life, tells us; they cannot believe his words, if they believe not in Moses writings: Saint Peter tells us, that the holy Scriptures is surer then a voice from heaven: Saint Paul tells us; that it is lively in operation, and whereby the Spirits demonstrates his power; and that, it is able to make a man wise to salvation; able to save our soules; and that it is sufficient (too) to make us believe in Christ, to live ever­lasting, John 20. As in every seed, there is a Spirit, which meeting with earth, heat, and moisture, grows to perfection: so the seed of the word, wherein Gods holy Spirit being sowen in the heart, inliven­ed by the heat of faith, and watered with the teares of repentance) soon fructifies without any further Cir­cumstance.

It doth so, but Your Majestie presupposes all this while, husband-men, and husbandery, barnes and threshing floures, winnowing and uniting these se­verall graines into one loafe, before it can [Page 72] become childrens bread. All that Your Majestie hath said concerning the Scri­ptures sufficiencie, is true, provided, that those Scriptures be duly handled, for as the Law is sufficient to determine, right and keep all in peace and quiteness, yet the exe­cution of that sufficiencie, cannot be per­formed without Courts and Judges: so when we have granted the Scriptures to be all that the most reverend estimation can attribute unto them, yet Religion cannot be exercised, nor differences in Religion reconciled, without a Judge; For as Saint Jerom tells us, who was no great friend to Popes or Bishops: Si non una, exors quaedam, & iminens detur potestas tot efficerentur in Eccle­sia schismata quot Sacerdotes. Wherefore I would faine find out that which the Scri­pture bids me hear, audi Ecclesiam: I would faine referre my self to that to which the Scripture commands me to appeale, and tells me, that if I do not, I shall be a hea­then and a Publican, dic Ecclesiae: which Church Saint Paul in his first Epistle calls the pillar and foundation of Truth, of which the Propbet Ezekiel saith: I will place my Sanctification in the midst of her for ever: and the Prophet Esay, that the Lord would never forsake her, in whose light [Page 73] the people shall walke, and Kings in the brightness of her Orient; Against which our Saviour saith: The gates of Hell shall not pervaile: with whom our Saviour saith: he would be alwayes unto the end of the world. And from whom the Spirit of Truth should ne­ver depart. For although the Psalmist tells us, that the word of the Lord is clear, in­lightning the eyes, yet the same Prophet said to God: Enlighten mine eyes, that I may see the marveils of thy Law: And Saint John tells us, that the book of God had seven Seales, and it was not every one that was thought worthy to open it, onely the lambe. The Disciples had been ignorant, if Jesus had not opened the Scriptures un­to them. The Eunuch could not under­stood them without an Interpreter; and Saint Peter tels us, that the Scripture is not of private Interpretation: and that in his brother Pauls epistles there are many things hard to be understood, which ignorant and light-headed-men wrest, to their own per­dition. Wherefore though as Saint Chry­sostom saith: Omnia clara sunt & plana ex­scripturis divinis: quaecunque necessaria sunt, manifesta sunt: yet no man ever hath yet defined what are necessary, and what not. What points are fundamentall, and what [Page 74] are not fundamentall. Necessary to Sal­vation is one thing, and necessary for knowledge as an improvement of our faith is an other thing, for the first, if a man keeps the Commandments, and believes all the Articles of the Creed, he may be saved, though he never read a word of Scri­pture; but much more assuredly if he me­ditates upon Gods word with the Psalmist day and night. But if he meanes to walk by the rule of Gods word, and to search the Scriptures, he must lay hold upon the means that God hath ordained, where­by he may attain unto the true under­standing of them; for as Saint Paul saith: God hath placed in the Church Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Doctors, to the end we should be no more little children, blowen about with every wind of Do­ctrine, therefore it is not for babes in un­derstanding to take upon them to under­stand those things, wherein so great a Pro­phet as the Prophet David confessed the darkness of his own ignorance. And though it be true, the Scripture is a river through which a lambe may wade, and an Elephant may swim, yet it is to be sup­posed and understood, that the lambe must wade but onely through, where the [Page 75] river is foordable; It doth not suppose the river to be all alike in depth, for such a river was never heard of; but there may be places in the river, where the lambe may swim as well as the Elephant, other­wise it is impossible that an Elephant should swim in the same depth, where a lambe may wade, though in the same ri­ver he may; neither is it the meaning of that place, that the child of God may wade through the Scripture without directions, help, or Judges, but that the meanest ca­pacitie, qualified with a harmeless inno­cence, and desirous to wade through that river of living waters to eternal life, may find so much of Comfort, and heavenly knowledge there easily to be obtained, that he may easily wade through to his eternal Salvation; and that there are also places in the same river, wherein the highest spe­culations may plunge themselves, in the deep misteries of God. Wherefore with pardon crav'd for my presumption, in holding Your Majestie in so tedious a discourse, as also, for my boldness in ob­truding my opinion, which is except (as incomparable Hooker in his Ecclesiasticall pollicy hath well observed) the Churches Authority be required herein, as necessary [Page 76] hereunto we shall be so far from agreeing upon the true meaning of the Scripture, that the outward letter sealed with the in­ward witness of the Spirit (being all here­ticks have quoted Scripture and pretended Spirit) will not be a warrant sufficient e­nough, for any private man, to judge so much as the Scripture to be Scripture: or the Gospel it self, to be the Gospel of Christ: This Church being found out, and her Authority allowed of▪ all controver­sies would be soon decided, and although we allow the Scripture to be the lock, upon the door, which is Christ, yet we must allow the Church, to be the Key, that must open it; as Saint Ambrose in his 38. Sermon calls the agreement of the Apostles in the Articles of our beliefe, Cla­vis Scripturae, one of whose Articles is, I believe the holy Catholick Church. As the Lion, wants neither strength, nor cou­rage, nor power, nor weapons, to seize upon his prey, yet he wants a nose to find it out: wherefore by naturall instinct, he takes to his assistants, the little Jack-call: a quick sented beast: who runs before the Lion, and having found out the prey in his language, gives the Lion notice of it, who soberly untill such time as he fixes his [Page 77] eyes upon the bootie, makes his advance, but once comming within view of it, with a more speed then the swiftest running can make hast, he jumps upon it, and seizes it. Now to apply this to our purpose.

Christ crucified is the main substance of the Gospel, according to the Apostles say­ing: I desire to know nothing, but Jesus, and him crucified; This crucified Christ is the nourishment of our soules, according to our Saviours own words: Ʋbi Cadaver, ibi aquilae. Thereby drawing his Disciples from the curious speculation of his body glorified, to the profitable meditation of his body crucified: It is the prey of the Elect: the dead Carkes feedeth the Eagles, Christ crucified, nourisheth his Saints: ac­cording to Saint Johns saying, except we eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his bloud, we have no life in us; him we must mastigate, and chew by faith: traject, and convey him into our hearts as nutriment, by meditation: and digest him by Coali­tion, whereby we grow one with Christ, and Christ becomes one with us, according to that saying of Tertullian, auditu devoran­dus est, intellectu ruminandus, fide digerendus.

Now for the true understanding of the Scriptures, which is no other thing, then [Page 78] the finding out of Jesus, and him crucified, who is the very life of the Scriptures: which body of Divinitie, is nourished with no other food, and all its vaines fil'd with no other bloud: though this heavenly food the Scripture have neither force nor power to seize upon its prey, but is en­dued with a lively spirit, able to overcome the greatest ignorance, yet there is a quick sented assistant called Ecclesia, or Church, which is derived from a verbe, which signi­fies to call, which must be the Jack-call to which this powerfull seeker after this prey must joyn it self, or else it will never be able to find it out; and when we are cal­led, we must go soberly to work, un­till by this meanes we have attained unto the true understanding and sight thereof, and then, let the Lion, like the Eagle, Ma­her-shalal-hashbaz (as the Prophet Esay cap. 8. v. 3. tells us,) make hast to the prey, make speed to the spoile. Saint Paul confirmes the use of this Etimologie writing to the Corinthians viz. To the Saints called, and the Ephe­sians cap. 4. he tells us, if ye would be in one body, and in one spirit, and of one mind, you must be as you are called in our hope of your vocation: and in his Epistle to the Colossians cap. 3. he tells us, that if we will have the [Page 79] peace of Christ to rule in our hearts, that is it by which we are called in one self body, where we must allovv a constitution or Societie of men called to that purpose, and whose cal­ling it is to procure unto us this peace and unitie in the Church, or we shall never find it. Thus when dissention arose be­tween Paul and Barnabas concerning Cir­cumcision, their disputations could effect nothing but heat, untill the Apostles and Elders met together, and determined the matter: there must be a society of men, that can say, bene visum fuit nobis & spiritui sancto, or else matters of that nature will never be determined, vvhich societie is there cal­led the Church, vvhich Church we are to find.

I pray my Lord, what do you meane by the holy Catholick Church, do you meane the Church of Rome?

I do so.

My thinks it should be in­consistent with it, to be both univer­sall, and particular.

No more then it is inconsi­stent, for the Generall of Your Army to [Page 80] be Generall of all Your Officers, and Souldiers, and yet a particular man. By the word Roman we intend not the par­ticular Church of Rome, but all the Churches which adhere and are joyned in Communion with the Roman Church, as by the Jewish Church, was not onely meant the Church of Judah, onely, but of all the other Tribes which had Commu­nion with her; the word Catholick is taken in three severall sences, formally, causually, and participatively: In the first sence, the Societie of all the true particular Churches, united in one self-same Communion, is called Catholick; Causually, the Roman Church is called Catholick, for as much as she infuseth universalitie into all the whole body of the Catholick Church, wherefore being a Center and begining of Ecclesiasticall Communion, infusing unitie, which is the form of of universalitie, into the Catho­lick Church. She may be called Catho­lick, Participatively, because particular Churches agree, and participate in Do­ctrine [Page 81] and Communion with the Catho­lick.

You have satisfied me why the Church of Rome (in your sence) may be called Catholick, but you have not yet satisfied me, why other Churches may not be called (causual­ly) as much Catholik as she: being the Greek Church hath infused as much universalitie into the wholy body of the Catholick Church as she did, and was both center and circumfe­rence, as much as ever she was.

Sir, as to this point, I shall re­fer Your Majestie to the learned reply, that the profound Card. Peroon, so re­spectfully and learnedly made to Your royall Father his Apologie, wherein this point is largely and (to my apprehen­sion) fully answered. But will Your Ma­jestie either give or take, either let me shew you this Church, or else do Your Ma­jestie shew it me.

My Lord, if you can shew [Page 82] it me, I shall not shut mine eyes a­gainst it; But at this time, truly my Lord, I can hardly hold them open. My Lord, I pray, will you set down your mind in writing, and I will promise you it shall want no animad­vertion, and that I will give, you my clear opinion concerning it.

O Sir! Literae scriptae ma­nent; I do not like, that what I speak here to Your Majestie, I can promise my self, so much from Your goodness, that no bad Construction shall be made of what I speak. But if my writing should come into other folkes hands, I may justly fear their comments: wherefore I desire to be excused.

My Lord, I hould it more convenient so to doe: I will pro­mise you, that I will let no eyes but mine own view, your Paper: and I will returne it to you again by the Doctor.

Ʋpon that Condition I am contented: I have one request more un­to [Page 83] Your Majestie: that You would make one Prayer to God, to direct You in the right way: and that You would lay aside all prejudice, and self-interest, and that You will not so much fear the Subject, as the Superiour, who is over all, and then You cannot do a miss.

My Lord, all this shall be done, by the Grace of God.

Whereupon the Marquess called upon me to help him, so that he might kneel: and being upon his knees, he desired to kiss His Majesties hand, which he did, saying:

Sir, I have not a thought in my heart, that tends not to the service of my God, and you: and if I could have resisted this motion of his Spirit, I had desisted long ago, but I could not: wherefore on both my knees, I pray to his Divine Majestie, that he will not be wanting to his own Ordinance, but will direct Your under­standing, to those things, which shall make You a happy King upon Earth, and a Saint in Heaven; And thereupon he [Page 84] fell a weeping, bidding me to light His Majestie to His Chamber. As the King was going, he said unto the Marquess: My Lord, it is great pittie, that you should be in the wrong: Whereat the Marquess soon replyed: ‘It is grea­ter pittie, that You should not be in the right.’ The King said: ‘ God direct us both:’ The Marquess said: ‘Amen, Amen, I pray God.’ Thus they both parted: and (as I was lighting His Majestie to His Chamber,) His Majestie told me, that he did not think to have found the old Man, so ready at it, and that he believed, he was a long time putting on his armour: yet it was hardly proofe. To which I made answer, that I believe, his Lordship had more reason to wonder, how His Majestie (so un­prepared) could withstand the on set. The King (being brought to His door,) commanded me, that before I brought him his Lordship Paper, I should per­use it, and give him my opinion of it. Which I promised to obey, and so re­turned [Page 85] to the Marquess, whom I found in the dark upon his knees, whom I did not disturbe; but when he rise, he said unto me: ‘Doctor, I will tell you what I was doing, I was giving God thanks, that he had preserved the use of my me­mory for so good a work, and imploring a blessing upon my endeavours.’ To which I made answer: My Lord, no question, but you think it a good work, or else you would not implore Gods blessing upon it. Whereupon my Lord said: ‘Ah! Doctor, I would to God, you thought so too:’ And waiting upon him into his Chamber, he further said unto me: ‘Doctor Bayly, you know, I am obliged not to speak unto you in this nature, yet I hope, I may say thus much unto you, without any breach of promise, you may be an Instrument of the greatest good that ever befell this Nation. I say no more: Good night to you.’

The third day after, he gave me this Pa­per to deliver unto His Majestie, which I did.

THis Paper was finished, and delivered into His Majesties hands, at a very un­fit time, either for perusall, or answer, being at the time when Bristoll was delive­red up unto the Parliament, and the Court in great distraction: the King being in a study rather to know which way to goe, then how to answer papers: Yet His Ma­jesty vouchsafed to run over the leaves, ra­ther then the lines, with His eye, and find­ing the Paper of some length, and full of Quotations, His Majesty said, To answer this Paper requires a great deale of that which I want, and that is time: besides, I perceive, that to make due enquiry into these particulars, it will require a great deale of search, which if leisure would give leave, I believe industry might find a great deale of foul play, and mis-quotations: Oxford would have been a fitter place for me then Ragland Castle, to have entertain'd such an Incounter; where the same place that is my Souldiers quarters, is his Jesu­ites Colledge? yet I pray tell him, I re­turne his Paper to him againe, and shall take another time to answer it, when op­portunity shall give me leave: To mor­row I shal ease his Lordship of a heavy bur­then, and this day will be time little e­nough [Page 232] for us to consider what course we are to take. I prayed God to bless His Ma­jesty in all His wayes, and to direct Him in all His consultations. The King (having (as it seem'd) fixt His eye upon that place in my Lords Paper, where he charged Lu­ther for saying that he received his Do­ctrine from the Devil) asked me what was Luthers meaning thereby? or whither or no Luther said any such thing? Whereunto I made answer, that to my knowledge Lu­ther had written so, but I believed his meaning was (as elsewhere he said, Dia­bolus me Christianum fecit) that having recei­ved many combates by the suggestions of the Devil: deterring him from underta­king so great a weight as Reformation, and having resisted those temptations, and at last overcome them, he became a better Scholler in the Schoole of Christ, and Souldier in that spiritual warfare. The King said, Luther was a bold man, and such high spirits sometimes take a pride to fight against common sence, as if it were the common enemy: Whereupon some of the Lords came in, and I took my leave of His Majesty.