I Am glad to see you well Sir, for old acquaintance sake, which I would be content to renew a­gaine.

I am glad also that you are in health, I saw you not a great while before now.

I pray ye what newes? were ye at Lon­don lately? What is become of the Catholikes? I heare there hath bene great disputation in the Tower.

There hath béene disputation indeed, by reason of a proude challenge which was made.

Ye might terme it a proude challenge, if he had not bene able to make his part good. But I heare he behaued himselfe very learnedly, and with great victorie against all which were set vp­pon him.

Ye haue heard moe lies then that, but I perceiue ye are a Papist, or at the least a fa­uourer of Papists, for they bragge that he did excellently, although in very déede, he was there shewed to be but an obstinate cauiller.

Wherefore should ye call me Papist, I am obedient to the lawes, and do not refuse to go to the Church.

Then it seemeth you are a Church Papist?

A Church Papist, what meane you by that?

Do you not know? I will tell ye: there are Papists which wil not come at the Church: and there are Papists which can kéepe their conscience to themselues and yet go to Church: of this latter sort it seemeth you are: because ye go to the Church.

How can you tell what is in mens con­sciences, you take vpon ye to iudge very deeply?

Nay there needeth no déepe iudge­ment, they are so shallow that a man may easily sound them to the bottome. Although the Church wals be thicke, yet a man may espie them by some creuise.

Whereby do you know them so easily? I pray by what notes can ye discerne them?

Some of them will not sticke to main­taine such popish opinions, as they know there is no great danger of law for. The simple sort which can no skill of doctrine, speake of the me­ry world when there was lesse preaching, and when all things were so cheape, that they might haue xx. egs for a penny. Other there be which neuer name Papists, but Catholikes, & if ye reason with them, they do it but for ar­guments [Page 3] sake, not that they say so, but the Ca­tholikes say so. Another sort there are, & those are as pestilent as can bee for to the ende they may do the greater mischiefe, they are Prote­stants: but yet if any Preacher do zealously beate downe Popery, he doth reaile, he is cho­lerike, hee is vncharitable, and so they deuise all meanes possible to disturbe him: these and suchlike, are the notes to discerne a Church Papist.

You call them zealous Preachers, & they be very scismatikes, and seduce the people with false doctrine, and therfore such as be wise, quiet, and stayed men, cannot abide them.

I see well that you are not of those which to it but for Arguments sake, you will not shew what the Catholikes say, but what your self saith. Had ye not great cause to be of­fended when I said ye were a Papist?

I thinke plaine dealing is best, in very deed I take ye to be heretikes, I am a Catholike.

You take vs to be heretikes, but in ve­ry deede I am able to proue that you are foule and rancke heretikes your selues: and far from true Catholikes.

Ye do vs great wrong to call vs heretikes, for we hold and bee of the Catholicke Church, which hath euer condemned all heretikes. If Ca­tholikes be heretikes, then are we also heretikes: but this latter belongeth to you, and all other which forsake the truth.

Nay, those which hold the Catholike faith are of this Catholike Church, and the do­ctrine of the Catholike faith we hold, which hath alwaies condemned heretikes: and ther­fore ye do vs as great wrong in calling vs he­retikes, as the Pharisies and Sadduces did vnto Saint Paule when they counted him so. Act. 24.14. You haue forsaken the true doctrine of the old Catholike faith, and therefore ye are no Ca­tholikes.

We are they which hold the auncient Ca­tholike faith, yours is new doctrine: we beleeue as all our forefathers did: If your doctrine be true, then all our forefathers were damned, for they alwayes beleeued contrary to that which you be­leeue.

The maner of you Papistes is, to af­firme things very strongly, but when ye shold proue them, then are ye exceeding weake, and can bring forth naught but poore stuffe. Ye are as able to proue these things which ye affirme, as I am to remoue mountaines.

We may say so of you more rightly, be­cause you affirme much and proue litle. I am able for to make good all that which I haue spoken.

Are you content to make triall who bring strongest proues, if ye be, let me heare how ye can disproue our faith, and afterward I will show what I haue to disproue yours, & so it shall be séene which hold the Catholike faith, and which be heretickes.

I am very well content, tell me what I shall begin withall.

Begin with those things which ye af­firmed euen now: proue that our doctrine is new: that you beleeue as all the forefathers did: that our doctrine doth condemne all our forefathers, and euery wise man will graunt that yours is the Catholike faith: if ye cannot proue this, then confesse that your doctrine is come from the father of lies, and not from the God of truth For there is but one truth, which is Gods word, all other doctrines are of the diuell.

If that faith which you beleeue, and do­ctrine which you professe, be not new, then was it beleeued and knowne in the daies of our fore­fathers: but it was not heard of in their daies, nei­ther was it knowne vntill such time as Luther did set it abroach. Therefore the proudest here­tike of ye all shall neuer be able, to shew that it is of antiquitie.

Here are ruffling words: the proudest heretike of thē al is not proud enough to deale with you: but indeede if your proud conceipt were no sturdier then your argument, yee might easily be dealt withall. I confesse your Maior, or first proposition of your argument to be true, which is this, if the doctrine which you professe be not new, then was it beleeued in the daies of our forefathers. But your se­cond, which is this, that our faith & doctrine [Page 6] was not heard of in the dayes of y ^e forefathers, vntill Luther did set it abroch, is most false, for our doctrine is the holy word of God, deliuered to the Church by the Apostles & Prophets. We beléeue as Adam, Seth, Enoch, and the rest of y ^e holy fathers did beléeue before y ^e floud: we be­léeue as Abraham, Isaack & Iaacob did beléeue, & the other godly patriarkes before the time of Christ: we beléeue as the blessed Apostles of our Lord, & other holy teachers in the Church a lōg time after thē did. But you Papists when you speake of the forefathers, let passe all these, which are the most auncient and most princi­pall, & draw vs to a few of your owne, which haue bene within these seuen or eight hundred yeares: in which time religion hath bene cor­rupted, and the great Antichrist, for the most part of this time hath preuailed. If we cannot proue our faith to be the faith of Abraham, let it be counted new, and let vs be taken for he­retickes.

If this were true, that you beleeue as the holy fathers before the flou [...]d, as the Patriarkes after the floud, as the Apostles of Christ, then doubtlesse you are in the right way: but these are but words, how will ye proue this? we say still you are heretickes and fallen away from the faith of these: and we proue it by this reason, because ye are fallen away from the faith of those forefa­thers which succeeded these. For the fathers of our Church are the successors of the Apostles, there­fore [Page 7] you being fallen from them, are fallen from the Apostles.

Then ye graunt, that those haue the truth on their side, which beléeue as the Apo­stles, Prophets, & Patriarches did. It remai­neth only in tryall which of vs hold that faith which they did. We proue that we do, because we acknowledge nothing but the holy doctrine of the Bible, vpō which their faith was groun­ded. You bring for your proofe y ^e doctrine & suc­cessiō of some mē, for certaine hundred yeares. Let vs now sée who bringeth y ^e best and surest proofe, say what ye can to weaken ours, & then I wil shew that the fathers which you boast of, from whom we separate our selues, are no suc­cessors of the Apostles, and therefore in depar­ting from them, we depart not from the Apo­stles: whose doctrine we hold.

What are ye the better to say ye bring the Scriptures, and ye beleeue nothing but the Scrip­tures, and ye will be tried by the Scriptures? By this you proue that you beleeue as the Apostles, and Prophets did, your reason is not good, be­cause the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood, who shall iudge which is the true sense and mea­ning of them? who shall tell ye how the Apostles and forefathers did vnderstand them? Shall not the Church? If ye may take them after your owne interpretation, then ye will do well enough: but the Church (which we are) is to interprete them, and therefore we do still condemne you and all [Page 8] other heretikes, although ye alleadge the Scrip­tures neuer so much, because you do but abuse them, as the diuell did when he tempted Christ. Therfore ye must bring better reason then this, to proue that ye hold the ancient Catholike faith, for this doth not proue it.

Oh what a trim shift is this: here is as pretie a iugling cast as euer the diuell could play to bleare the eyes of the simple and vn­skilfull, to make them beleeue that the scrip­tures are nothing without the interpretation of the Church of Rome: Each man must light his candle there, or els he shall go in the dark. This is one of the most subtill and craftie ca­uils which you Papistes can make, and one of the strongest pillers which your kingdome is built vpon: For when ye cannot denie but y ^t the Scriptures doe speake for vs, then ye flie to this, that they are hard to be vnderstood: ye wold make vs beleeue that when they speake of one thing they meane another: when they speake of good they meane euill, when they set forth heauen, they meane hell.

It is like you will answere truth, when ye charge vs with so great and manifest a lie, where can ye shew that euer any of our side hath spoken or written, that when the scripture speaketh of one thing it meaneth another?

Is that such a lie, I pray you what is the cause why ye tel vs the scriptures are hard, when they speake so fully, so plainely, and [Page 9] plentifully, and with such consent and agree­ment in those things which are the principles of our faith, if it be not, that when they speake of one thing they meane another? Wherefore shold we not vnderstand what God saith vnto vs, if he deale simply? Wherfore did the Lord speake by his Prophetes and Apostles to the simple & common people if they could not vn­derstand what he said? I cannot tell, what o­ther reason ye can shew, why they should be so darke as you make them.

Are ye then in good sadnesse of this mind, that the scriptures are not hard to be vnderstood? and are they not vncertaine, because they may be expounded diuerse wayes?

I do not deny, 2. Pet. 3 [...] but that as S. Peter saith, There be some things hard to be vnder­stood, which the vnlearned and vnstable do per­uert, as they do other scriptures to their owne destruction. I confesse with the authour of the Epistle to the Hebrues. Heb. 5. That there are things hard to bee vnderstood, because we be dull of hearing. Also the iust iudgement of God vpon the wickednesse of men, as it is set forth by the Prophet Isaiah, Isa. 5. in hardning their harts & blin­ding their eyes, that in hearing, they may heare and not vnderstand, in séeing they may see, and not perceiue, and also in causing the word of God to be vnto them as a sealed booke, sa. 29 I. doth make the Scriptures hard to bee vnder­stood. Now although they be hard also in some [Page 10] sort euen to the godly and diligent man, & those whom God doth teach, yet they are not hard as you make them, that is to say, that in no wise they may be vnderstood or haue any certainty in them, but by the interpretation of the Pope and his cleargie. For that is most blasphe­mously to take away the light from the most pure and cleare word of God. This therefore is but diuellish craft, by which ye would driue vs from Gods word, which standeth sure on our side, and maketh flat against you. The Scriptures can be expounded rightly but one way: hauing but one sense.

That which you do alleadge out of Saint Peter doth make for vs, where he saith, That the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert not only those hard things, but also all other Scriptures to their distruction. 2. Pet. 1. Likewise the same Apostle saith, That no Scripture is of priuate interpretation. S. Paul saith, 1. Tim. 3. That the Church is the pillar & ground of truth. Then I reason thus, the vnlearned do per­uert the scriptures, therefore they are not to deale with them: no priuate person is to interprete the Scriptures: therefore none but the Church, or those which haue the authority in the Church: and because the Church is the pillar of truth: whosoeuer doth separate himselfe from the Church, doth depart from the truth. And by this we do still proue that you are all heretickes and scismatikes, and do peruert the scriptures, be­cause you take them not as the Church doth ex­pound [Page 11] them. The scriptures seeme to be on your side, but they are not, they seeme to be against vs, but they are not.

This is very sound stuffe, you make three strong conclusions out of three sentences of the scriptures. In the first ye reason thus, the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures, therefore none can vnderstand the scriptures but the learned: by this, your meaning is to shut out all the layitie as you call them from iudging of doctrine, and to allow vnderstanding of the scriptures to none but the learned, that is, the Clergie of Rome, for that we shal haue by and by. But ye ouershoote your selfe much when ye thinke that Saint Peter by vnlearned men, doth meane such as haue not bin brought vp in schoole learning, and so put that difference betweene cleargie and layitie: No he counteth all those learned which are taught of God, both of the common sort of people and other: & all those are vnlearned which are not taught of God: although otherwise they abound in all knowledge of tongues and arts, or whatsoeuer. Such as haue learned Christ Iesus, and him crucified, and so are become new creatures in Christ, they are learned: Col. 2. For in him are all the treasures of wisdome and knowledge. He that hath not learned Christ, he is vnlearned. If he be not new borne, but as S. Iohn saith, 1. Iohn. 3. cōmit­teth sin he hath not séene him nor knowne him: although otherwise he be neuer so studied a mā [Page 12] in the scriptures. Math. 11. For this cause we see that the poore Publicanes are called the children of wisedome, because they imbraced the doctrine of Christ, when the great Doctors the Scribes and Pharisies, were starke blind. They sayd, none followed Christ but the multitude, which knew not the law, Iohn. 7. which were accur­sed: when as indeede they were blind and ac­cursed themselues: & so fareth it now with the Pope and his shauelings: they say the people cannot vnderstand the scriptures, when them­selues do not. The next sentence vppon which you conclude is out of Peter also, where hee saith▪ No scripture is of priuate interpretation. From hence you fetch an inuincible argument to proue that none of vs may interprete, but Rome onely: No priuate man is to inter­prete the scriptures, because no scripture is of priuate interpretation: all those which are not of the Popish Cleargie, or which haue not au­thority in the Church from the Pope, or do not expound as the Church, are priuate men: ther­fore none of those are to interprete the scrip­tures. Here the Pope like a greedy cormorant will haue all to himselfe. But ye deale deceipt­fully, or at the least vnskilfully with the text which ye alleadge: for Saint Peter when he saith priuate, doth not speake it to make this difference betweene men, as though for inter­preting the scriptures, some shold haue autho­rity, & some should be priuate: but he setteth [Page 13] men against God, calling that priuate which is of man. For he doth reason thus: the scrip­ture was not giuen by the will of man, but by the spirite of God: therefore the interpreta­tion thereof must bee of God, & men must not bring that which is their owne. If the in­terpretation be by the spirit, then is it not pri­uate: if it be out of mans braine, although it should be the Pope & al his Cardinals, yea, ten thousand Popes, it is still priuate, after the sense in which S. Peter doth call priuate. For let any skilful man in the greeke tongue looke vpon the word, which is idias epiluseos, and he will confesse, that it doth signifie, that which is ones owne. Then the sense is plaine, and it is also manifest how peeuishly you peruert the word of God. What manner of argument is this? a man may not in the interpreting of the Scriptures bring that which is his owne: ther­fore none may interprete them but y ^e Church of Rome. Your last reason is not worth answe­ring: for although it is most true, that y ^e Church is the pillar of truth, & y ^t those are voyd of truth, which abide not in the Church: yet this is as false, y ^t the Pope & his company are the Church of Christ, as the other is true, and therefore we are no heretikes nor Schismatikes for depar­ting from you, which are a den of theeues, which haue conspired against the truth.

Two grosse things and strange I gather out of your words, the one, that you would haue the [Page 14] people of themselues, to iudge of doctrine: the o­ther, ye will haue no other interpreter of the sense of the Scriptures, but the Spirit. I pray ye, I am an vnlearned man, & would faine know which is the truth, I heare you alleadge the scriptures in one sense, and you say you haue the spirit, our men al­leadge them in another sense, and say they haue the spirit: the Anabaptists, they haue the spirite, the Arrians they interprete by the spirit: what shal I do? here is euery man hath the spirit, & yet euery one goeth a contrary way. It is manifest there­fore that heere needeth a more certaine thing to leane vnto, or else the simple man cannot tell which way to turne him. What shall he do now, but looke how the Church beleeueth, and rest in that. For he must haue that which may teach him to know which of all these hath the true spirit, or else he is neuer the neerer.

Ye find two grosse things in my words, one of them is, that I say the people can iudge of doctrine, when it is preached. What doth our Sauior Christ meane when he saith, Iohn. 10. My sheep heare my voyce, a stranger they wil not heare. they flie frō strangers? Cā they know the voice of the true shepheard from the false, & can they not discerne doctrine? The other is, that I will haue none other interpreter of the sense of the scriptures but the spirit. 1. Cor. 2. S. Paul saith: the eare hath not heard, nor the eye hath not seene, nei­ther came into mans hart, y ^e things which God hath prepared for them that loue him: but God [Page 15] hath reuealed them vnto vs by his spirite: for the spirite searcheth all things, yea the deepe things of God. And the great doubt which you put forth in the simple man, which would faine vnderstand the truth, and which of all those foure that ye named haue the spirit, I answer, that if he himselfe haue not the spirite of God to teach him, he shall not be able to iudge: but if the spirite do teach him, then can he find it, for the spirite which doth teach the one to vtter the doctrine, which is his, doth teach the other to know that doctrine, and in them consenteth vnto it, being his owne: and therefore Saint Iohn saith to all y ^e Christians: 1. Iohn. 4. Trie the spirites whether they be of God. By your saying the people should not be able to trie them, and so he would teach them that which did not belong vnto them.

What a trimme colour you set vppon the matter, and how pretily ye can shift: but I wil lay open your subtiltie. To proue that the velearned people can iudge of doctrine preached, you al­ledge the saying of Christ, My sheepe heare my voyce &c. I pray ye Sir, if a man should demand of you, whether he meaneth that this shall be im­mediatly or not, and whether, when he saith they shalbe all taught of God, doth he exclude the mi­nistery of men or not? I know ye will say the voyce of the great Shepeard is heard when those which he hath appointed to be shepheards do vt­ter his doctrine. Ye will also say, that although [Page 16] God teach, yet he doth it by the ministery of men. Then I answer, that the vnlearned people are to heare the voyce of Christ from the Pope, who is their great shepheard vnder Christ, & God doth teach them by him: they are to sticke and cleaue to his determination: of themselues they cannot iudge, but they must doe it by him: he must tell them which is the woolfe, and which is the false Prophet: they cannot tell which commeth with the true spirit, or which spirit is of God, but as he doth direct them. And for this cause we say still, that ye haue not the true Catholike faith, nor the scriptures on your side, nor the true sense, because ye are gone from the only true expoūder of them.

All that I haue brought is but a colour and a prety shift, and easily disclosed with one poore distinction of mediate & immediate. But I pray ye Sir, how doth this hang together, the voyce of the true shepheard is heard when it is vttered by men, therefore the way to know it is by men. God teacheth by men, therfore God teacheth to discerne the spirits by men: or if it be so, must this needs follow, that the Pope & his Cleargy are those men which must do the déed? This is a strange thing, Christ Iesus, S. Paule, S. Peter S. Iohn & others, do foretell the people of false prophets the only way and re­medy to auoyde them, as you say, is to hang v­pon the Pope, & yet none of all these or any o­ther, hath so much as once noted it, or tell the poore people by whose direction they might be [Page 17] safe in so extreame danger.

There was no neede so long as Christ or his Apostles liued to tell them so, for they taught them this thing, or how can you tell they did not: they might, though it be not written: is all written which they did teach?

Here is mighty strong geare, this were able to set vp a Pope, if he were thrown down, & to reuiue him againe, if he were hanged. No maruell forsooth Christ nor his Apostles did not tell y ^e people, y ^t the Pope and Church of Rome should be their refuge when heretickes shold séeke to seduce thē, because there was no need so long as they liued: this were somwhat if they had told only of y ^e false teachers of their time: but when they foretel the great dangers & mischiefs which should be in the Church lōg after their dayes, being aboue all things most chary of the safety of the same, this were very absurd, Acts. 20. not once to giue any note of the surest remedy. S. Paul saith to the elders of the Church of Ephesus, that he did know, that after his de­parture there shold enter in grieuous wolues, not sparing y ^e flock, & there shold rise of thēselues which shold speake peruerie things, and draw disciples after thē: & yet he speaketh of no reme­dy but y ^t which was banished in your Church, namely careful & diligēt teaching: for he saith, therfore watch & be mindful, &c. S. Peter saith, as there were in times past false prophets amōg y ^e people, so shal there be false teachers amōg you: 2. Pet. 2. [Page 18] and afterward he sheweth this remedy, not willing them to hang their faith vppon his chaire, or successor, but to call to remembrance the words that had bene told them of the holy Prophetes, and by the Apostles of Christ. Saint Iohn saith, 1. Iohn. 2. little children, it is the last houre, ye haue heard that Antichrist shal come, I say there are already many Antichristes in the world: and a litle after he telleth them how they shall escape the danger: but (saith he) you haue receiued an annointing: what, from the Pope, or his greasie oyle? no, but from the ho­ly one, and know all things. Againe, ye neede not (saith he) that any man teach ye, but as the annoynting do teach ye. Christ Iesus foretel­leth, Math. 24. that there should rise false Prophets, and do such wonders, that if it were possible, euen the elect should be deceiued: but y ^t (as his words do most plainely shew) is vnpossible: and why? doth he say, because I will leaue a vicar, and as many as hang vppon his sleeue shall be safe? not so, but because God hath chosen them: for he doth keepe them, Iohn. 10. and none is able to take them out of his hand. He saith in another place: Beware of false Prophetes, which come vnto you in shéepes clothing, but inwardly are rauening woolues: and whereby, shall men know them: Math. 7. He sayeth, by their fruits. But how know we whether he did tell them so or not, he might, though it be not written? alacke, alacke.

I know your sect make but a scoffe at the traditions of the Apostles which were not cō ­mitted to writing: but let that go, it is but a folly to perswade those to beleeue, which haue denied the faith, and despise the Catholike Church.

The Pope of Rome hath a great chest ful of traditions, which S. Peter did not put in writing, but he hath: & whosoeuer doth not be­leeue these, hath denied the faith, & dispiseth the Catholike Church. This is not your best way, your best way is to stand to this, that the Pope hath authority to decree what he wil: & so your traditions shall stand sure though they be flat against the word of God. But I am content to let this go also, and to returne to that which we had in hand: and because I would haue the matter made a little more plaine, I will de­maund a question or two at your hands. Was there not a Church in the world before the cō ­ming of Christ?

Who doth deny that? the Iewes were the Church and people of God.

Then tell me further, whether had they the word of God or not, to instruct them and to ground their faith vpon?

They had the bookes of Moses, they had the bookes of the Prophets: they were bidden to heare them.

Who were appointed in the Church to expound the law and the Prophets vnto the people?

The high Priest, and other Priests, and Leuites, which God appointed to haue that office.

Did the high Priestes which succeeded Aaron depart away from the truth and seduce the people at any time, and likewise the other Priests and Leuites?

What though they did? they cruc ified Christ: yet it followeth not that the Pope & his Cleargie can erre, because Christ promised to be with them to the end of the world.

I will come to that promise afterward, but tell me how did the Church in the meane time, when the high Priests and rulers taught contrary to the truth? what were they to leane vnto now? where was the Church?

It was in Christ, and those which belee­ued in him, these were the Church and he that ioyned himselfe to these did right, and had the true faith.

The high Priests and Rulers in the Church could fetch their authority and succes­sion from Aaron, which was many hundred yeares. When Christ taught against these, and they against him: alleadging that they were Moses desciples, Mat. 21. they did know God spake to Moses, as for him, they did not know whence hee was: Iohn. 9. they were the Church and had authority, they demanded of him by what authority he did those things, and who gaue him that authority: they sayd he seduced the [Page 21] people, and none followed him but the com­mon people, which knew not the law, Mat. 15. which were accursed: they accused him that he brake the tradition of the Elders, he brake the Sab­both, and such like. How did the people know who had the truth, he or they?

They might know by the miracles which he wrought, when he cast forth diuels, and healed diseases.

They sayd, he did it by the power of Beelzebub the Prince of the Diuels: Iohn. 10. and so blinded themselues and all other whom God did not teach by his holy spirite: and therefore he sayth vnto them: Iohn. 8. Why do not ye heare my voyce: because ye are not of my sheepe. Also in another place, those that are of God heare the words of God, ye therefore heare them not, because you are not of God And whereas you speake of miracles which he wrought: Iohn. 10. how did the people know that Iohn Baptist was of God, seeing he wrought no miracle? there can bee nothing more plaine then this, that the people did not stay their faith vp­pon the succession of the Priests, nor vppon the antiquity of traditions in the Church or­dayned by the fathers, nor vpon the consent of the Cleargie, or any outward thing, for then they shold haue refused Christ: Iohn. 6. but they were giuen vnto him of his Father, and taught by him, and therefore heard his voyce, and beleeued in him. Blessed art thou Simon, Iohn. 10. [Page 22] flesh and bloud reuealed not this vnto thee, Mat. 16. but my father which is in heauen. Euen after this manner do the Romish Pharisies deale now against the Gospell & the true beleeuers: we are the Church, we are the successours of Peter, yee must be iudged by vs: your doctrine is new: ye breake the traditions of the Elders, ye are seducers and heretikes: but when you haue sayd all that ye can, we stand still vppon the rocke of Gods truth, which flesh and bloud hath not reuealed vnto vs, but the Father by his spirit.

Here is much a do, and yet nothing to the purpose. You made a comparison betweene our Church and the Church before Christ: and be­cause the people then did not stay vpon the rulers of the Church, therefore they must not now, how followeth this? do ye not know that there is great difference Christ made promise, that he would be with our Church vnto the end of the world: Matth. 28. and therfore it can not erre. Now because the Church cannot erre, all those must needes bee heretikes which depart from it.

There is great difference betweene our Church say you, and the Church of the Iewes: Is the great difference in this, that yours are the greater Pharisies? no say you, our Church can not erre, because Christ hath promised to be with it to the end of the word? I maruell much in what scripture a man shall find that same promise, where [Page 23] Christ saith, I will be with my holy vicar the Pope to the worlds ende, and hee shall neuer erre: I suppose a man shal find it either in Le­genda aurea, or in some such Canonicall scrip­ture. I know you wil say, it is in the new Te­stament for Christ did promise his Apostles y ^t he would send them the Comforter, Iohn. 16. and that he would be with them vnto the end of the world. Ye reason thus, Christ promised to be with the Church, therfore with the Church of Rome, your conclusion is very nimble, and commeth skipping in before it bee called, but it must be sent away like a skipiacke, and be taught bet­ter maners. Is there also (as you say) so great difference, that the Church before Christ had no such promise? was the true Church euer without the spirit of God? had they no promise that way? what saith God by the Prophete, Psal. .132. or what meaneth this, I haue chosen Sion, here will I rest, here shall be my habitation for e­uer. Isay. 49. And likewise when the Prophete Isay saith, but Sion sayd, God hath forsaken me, and the Lord hath forgotten me: what doth the Lord answer? Can a mother forget her child, & not pitie the sonne of her wombe? though these should forget, yet will not I forget thee. Be­hold, I haue grauen thee vpon my hands, and thy walles are euer in my sight. Are these no such promises as yours haue? You see for all these, the builders refuse the stone, Psal. 118. which is made the chiefe corner stone: the rulers in the [Page 24] Church and such as succeeded the holy Priests of God, fel away, neuerthelesse God preserued his Church: so the Pope, his Cardinals, his Bishops, and Priests, became & are very hell hounds, & yet God doth preserue his litle flock: they should be in a most miserable case if they had none other guide but that horned beast of Rome: the Church, that is the elect cannot erre to destruction; but the Pope is a Captaine of heretickes.

This is your spitefull spirit by which ye do blaspheme, but the holy father is neuer the worse for your rayling: it is all the reason ye haue against him.

As great rayling and blasphemie, as if a man should call the diuell a Dragon: for Saint Iohn doth call the Pope Therion, which is a fierce and sauage beast. But let vs come to the matter againe, when ye charge vs with new doctrine, and make the cause to bee this, that we depart from that doctrine which your Church hath beleeued now certaine hun­dred yeares, against which we alleage the e­ternall word of God, then ye shift vs off with this, that we cannot vnderstand the word, vn­lesse we receiue the meaning thereof from your Church: and although we haue the most cleare testimonies of the Scriptures against you, yet ye set light thereby, and all because your Church cannot erre, and you expound them otherwise. Therefore there is by your [Page 25] doctrine no rule left for a man to build his faith vppon, but the exposition of the gouer­nours in the Church. Aunswere me direct­ly vnto this, were there not false Prophetes in olde time among the people of the Iewes?

The Scripture doth shew that there were somtime a great number at once, and the Church of God did euer condemne them.

But tell me, how did the people know who were the true Prophets and who were the false? the one side commeth, and they say, thus saith the Lord: no saith the other side, that is false, thus saith the Lord quite contra­ry to the other: and not only at some times a multitude of false Prophets against one true seruant of God, but also the high Priestes and other Priests and gouernours in the Church, taking part with them against the true Pro­phet. Where was then your golden rule, which ye would haue y ^e common sort to measure their faith by, I beleeue as the Church beleeueth: I cannot iudge: I must not meddle with the meaning of the Scriptures?

Proue this which you haue sayd: it is an easie matter to affirme, and you are ready to doe that, but your proofes come slowly. Can you shew that the high Priests and gouernours in the Temple did ioyne with the false prophets, against the true Prophet?

They come a little faster then you [Page 26] would gladly haue them: or else you would not be so calme, if there were but a little mat­ter of colour against vs for want of proofe, you would set vp your bristles by and by, and you would crowe: but when the matter brought out doth choke ye, then ye say there is nothing brought: ye bid me proue, that whē there were false Prophets, and that sundry against one, they had the Priests and rulers of the Church on their side. Reade Ieremias the Prophet, ye shall find the false Prophets against him, and the Priests also: and euen as you say against Luther, and other which imbrace the holy Gos­pell, they be heretikes, the Pope cannot erre: so say they for themselues against Ieremias, Iere. 18. come let vs imagine some deuise against him: for the law shall not perish from the Priest, nor the counsell from the wise, nor the word from the Prophete. Were the godly people now which forsooke the Priests, Iere. 1. Princes, and Prophets, and gaue eare to Ieremias, apostats? Did not the Lord tell him at the first when he sent him, that he should haue the peo­ple, the Priests and Princes against him? Also ye may see it very fully and plainely expres­sed, Iere. 20. that Pashur the Priest, which was appoin­ted, chiefe in the house of God, did smite Iere­mias, and put him in the stockes, when hee heard him prophesie: here was a right Pope, & a stoute Bishop: that durst set Gods Prophet in the stockes. This thing is set foorth in sun­dry [Page 27] places of the Prophets, how the Priests & the false Prophetes were linked together a­gainst the true messengers of the Lord. For ye may see how the Priests and Prophets, and people lay hold on Ieremias, Iere. 26. and would haue put him to death: for the Priests & Prophets accused Ieremias before the Princes, that hee was worthy of death. Eze. 22. The Prophet Ezechiel also complaineth grieuously of y ^e Priestes and the Prophets. Also long before the time of Ie­remias & Ezechiel, the Lord complayned of y ^e Priestes and Prophetes for their wickednesse. For thus he saith by Mica, Mica 3. the Princes iudge for bribes, the Priests teach for reward, and the Prophets do prophesie for money. Behold also what God complaineth against y ^e Priests and Prophetes, euen in the dayes of the most godly king Iosia: as ye may reade in the Pro­phet Sophanie. Sopha. 3. Likewise where the holy Ghost sheweth the cause of the great destruction which came vpon Hierusalem: 2. Chro. 36 he saith that al the chiefe Priests and people, committed ma­ny transgressions according to all the abhomi­nations of the heathen, and defiled the house of God which he had sanctified in Hierusalem: & how God sent vnto them his Prophetes, but they would not heare them. See then, if the wickednesse of the Priests draw the Lord out of his Temple, vnto which he had made so glo­rious promises, and which he had chosen to be the place where he would be worshipped: shall [Page 28] we now tie him to that chaire, from which there haue come the most horrible villanies a­gainst God, almost that euer were committed in the world? shall we say that the most pure & most holy God, hath fastened himselfe to the mother of whoredomes, and abominations?

Ye take great paines to small profit, for a man may in a word ouerthrow all that you haue built: ye haue shewed how the Priestes and go­uernours in the Temple did corrupt their wayes and ioyned with the false Prophetes against the true messengers of the Lord. You gather out of this, that there was no rule left in the Church for the people to trie the worship and seruice of God by, but this conclusion of yours doth not follow, because the corruption of maners and withstan­ding the true Prophets, did not hinder but that they remayned still the Church, and the worship appointed in the Temple was not to be despised, for if any did forsake it, they were indeed Apo­stats: for whē they were euen at the worst, Christ sendeth such as he had cleansed of the leprosie to shew themselues to the Priest, and to offer the gift which Moses had commanded. This must needes be so, for otherwise, how should that saying of Christ, Math. 18. dic ecclesiae, tell the Church, be a perpetuall rule to all the people: if there be once no Church visible to tell that cause vnto, where is then the doctrine and precept of Christ? Here therefore, I say still ye be heretikes and apostats, insomuch as ye haue departed frō the holy mother the Church: [Page 29] ye haue forsaken the fellowship of the faithfull: & that which ye pretend the abuses of the Church, is no excuse at all: for will ye forsake your mother, because she wanteth perfect beauty, or because there is some deformity in her? the abuses are to be reformed, the thing must not be destroyed. I would wish ye therfore to returne, and to submit your selues againe, and not to cast away your soules, for ye be all damned heretickes which be out of the Church.

The breath of your mouth is very strong, when as with one blast ye are able to o­uerthrow whatsoeuer a man can bring out of the word of God. But ye deceiue your selfe greatly, for Gods truth will stand when you shall fall. Your poore and silly shifts wil stand ye in no steed: you make your reason after this maner, when the Priests were most corrupt, either in maners or withstanding y ^e true Pro­phets, yet they remayned still the Church, and the seruice and worship in the Temple, was not to be despised: if any did, they were apo­stats. This ye confirme by such as Christ ha­uing cleansed he sendeth to offer to y ^e priests, & then by a perpetual rule which Christ gaue, dic ecclesiae tel y ^e Church. Hereupō ye cōclude again y ^t we be heretikes, because we haue forsakē the Church of Rome, where ye tel vs that y ^e abuses shold not driue vs to do so, we must not forsake our mother, for some deformity, and want of beauty: I wil answer ye, y ^t this argument may [Page 30] easily be denied, when you say those which did forsake the worship in the Temple were Apo­stats, therefore those which forsake the Church of Rome are heretickes and Apostats: for to make this hold, you must first proue that God hath tied his religion now to Rome, as he had then to the Temple, and that he hath chosen Rome, as he then chose mount Sion: which ye shall neuer be able to do, because it is most false. And then ye must proue, that your wor­ship which you maintaine, is y ^t which God hath commanded, and then doubtlesse hee that shall depart from that, is an heretike. For if any did depart from worshipping in the Temple, hee was not an apostat for departing from wicked Priests, but for refusing that which God had appointed him to do. We depart not but from a den of theeues, and from an heape of damna­ble errors, and not from that which God hath commanded: & so Christ sendeth the Leapers which he had clensed, to fulfill the law of God commanded by Moses, which was to be done, & to be done no where but in the Temple where the Priests bare the sway. The other reason which ye bring, as a perpetuall rule of Christ, dic ecclesiae, tell the Church, is of no value, for although the rule be perpetual, doth it therfore follow, that it can alwayes bee put in practise? Hath Christ by that rule, where he saith if thy brother offend against thee, reproue him, if that do not serue, take one or two with thee, if he [Page 31] will not heare them, tell the Church, &c. set downe that there shall be euer a true and vi­sible Church, which will correct the offenders? How say ye to the Church of Israel in y ^e dayes of the Prophet Elias, 1. King. 19. when he complained to God, that they had killed his Prophets, digged downe his Altars, and that he only was left, & they sought his life: God made him answere, that he had a Church among them: I haue left vnto me seuen thousand in Israel, &c. which Elias did not sée. Where was Dic ecclesiae now become? Must they bring their Dic ecclesiae to those which are fallen away from God, & will excōmunicate the children of God, Iohn. 9. as the Pha­risies did the blind man? Did he euer come vn­to them to be absolued? When your diuellish sinagogue do excommunicate vs, we be the nigher vnto Christ. It is true which ye say, that the true Church must not be forsaken for cer­taine abuses, but if the abuses be such as vt­terly destroy the faith, as yours are, then is it no longer the Church of Christ: but a company of wicked hell hounds: and therefore ye do but loose your labour when you exhort vs to re­rurne to your Church, which is no mother of ours, but she is the whore of Babylon, which hath filled the earth with her fornications. There are none blessed vnlesse they depart from her, her wayes are the wayes of dam­nation: Reuel. 18. come out of Babylon sayth the Angell of our God.

I could answer ye againe with words, but so I should but spend time, neither doe I like of long circumstances without matter, which is the fashion of you heretikes, when ye haue no sound reasons, then to make a shew of speech, and fall to rayling.

You cannot abide words without matter: neither can your meeke spirite tell which way to fall to rayling: but let any in­different man reade ouer the bookes which your great Catholike Doctors set forth, and he will confesse, that in many words there will be found little matter. Take away your vn­truthes, slaunders, and spitefull raylings, there will be but a little left behind. If we speake of you, that which the Scriptures pro­nounce against you, by and by we rayle. Did Iohn Baptist rayle when he called the Pha­risies, Math. 3. The generation of Vipers? But seeing ye ione matter, let vs see it, to proue our do­ctrine to be new: ye must bring stronger rea­sons then that the Church of Rome for cer­taine hundred yeares hath not allowed it: there is no point of our faith, but it is farre more auncient then your popish decrees: your bauld and doltish shift, to driue vs onely to your exposition of the Scriptures is not worth a straw, Gods holy spirit hath bestowed great gifts vpon his Church in these last dayes. Pro­ceed with your matter.

Nay you shall not so slylie conuey your [Page 33] selfe: ye make smal account of the interpretation of the Church of Rome, which agreeth with all the holy Doctors and Teachers euen from the time of the Apostles. Your exposition of the word began of late in Germany, and therefore is not to be taken for Catholike.

Seeing ye must needes lie, it is good to lie for somewhat: all holy Doctors and Tea­chers from the Apostles are on your side: this all doth signifie none: For the very truth is (as euery man that can reade their writings may see) that they be (except in a very few points) all against ye: sauing such holy diuels, as within these latter times haue bene the Popes owne Doctors. Our exposition is the same which the godly fathers (before Anti­christ had gotten the vpper seate in the Tem­ple) did vse: & therefore Catholike: although your mother disallow it.

Nay heretickes be liers, we say the truth when we do chalenge the auncient Doctors and Fathers to be on our side: we succeede them, we honour, loue, and commend them more then you, we pray for their helpe, you seeke to deface and pull downe all remembraunce of them: let all the world be iudge whose side they are like to be of, ours or yours, when we haue them in so great and high estimation, and you set so light by them. Can we bee fallen from them (as you say) being so readie to doe them all the ho­mage [Page 34] we can? our hearts do witnesse that we do it in simplicity. Moreouer, all your matter is not worth a straw which ye haue brought out of the Church of the Iewes: ye haue shewed that in Israel Elias could see no Church: that in the Temple, the Priests and false Prophets did con­spire against the true messengers of the Lord. This were somewhat if you could shew it in our Church, vnto which Christ hath made his pro­mise, neuer to forsake it: but to giue it his spirite to the worlds ende: Your matter is too weake to ouerthrow so great and manifest truth.

It is indeed a certaine and sure thing, that heretikes will lie, and therefore you Pa­pists, whose Religion is a very hotch potch, & dunghill of all grosse heresies, will not sticke at that. But here is a great reason brought, to proue that the holy Saints of God are on your side and not on ours. The holy Fathers are like (as all men may iudge) to be on their side, which succeede them, which do most loue them, honour them, and commend them, but therein who knoweth not that ye go beyond vs, which ye accuse to deface their honor? And therefore they be on your side, and must néedes take you to be their speciall friends. Indeede we confesse y ^t you do giue that honour to the Saints which we deny them, and therefore ye seeme to loue them more then we. But when the matter cō ­meth to the due triall, euery man shall easily perceiue, that it doth not therefore follow, that [Page 35] they be on your side: because it is no true loue nor right honor which ye giue vnto them: nor such indeed as they can in any wise accept of: for when as all their delight and ioy was that God alone should be worshipped, and haue all his whole honor reserued to himselfe: how can they take it well at your hands, when ye play the arrant théeues, and most villanously robbe God to giue vnto them? Are there any good mē heare in earth which would bee content to see theeues spoyle other mens goods, and to bring the same to them? if not, how should the bles­sed Virgin, the holy Apostles, & other Saints of God count those sacrilegious wretches to be their friends, which rob and spoyle God of his honor, and thrust Christ from his office, to be­stow vpon them? No, those honor them which follow their steps, in giuing all honor to God, they loued and held the truth, which was dea­rer to them then their liues, and therefore are on their side which walke in the truth. Moreo­uer your loue and honour which you giue and bestow vpon them, is euen such as the wicked Apostates among the Iewes did bestow vpon the holy Prophets of God. Thus Christ spea­keth: Woe be vnto you Scribes & Pharisies, Math. 23. ye Hypocrites, because you build the Sepul­chers of the Prophets, & garnish the Tombes of the righteous: and ye say, if we had bene in the dayes of our Fathers, we would not haue bene partakers with them in the bloud of the [Page 36] Prophets. Will you say that these did loue the Prophets, which did so much hate Christ? did they honour the Prophets, and dishonour Christ? Euen such are you, ye honor the holy Saints of old, but if they were aliue on earth, ye would murder them. In the next place you make that to be nothing which I alleadge con­cerning y ^e Church of y ^e Iewes ye require that I should shew some such thing in your Church. What say ye to this, 2. Thes. 2. that S. Paule saith there should be a falling away: the man of sinne should be set vp. Reuel. 13. And when Saint Iohn spea­king of the same apostasie saith, that all the world wondered and followed the beast. And againe in the same Chapter he sayth, that who­soeuer would not worship the Image of the beast they should be killed, Reuel. 13. and he caused all both small and great, rich and poore, bond and free, to receiue a make in their right hand, or in their forehead. And that none might buy or sell, but he which hath the marke or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Ye wil not deny also but that which Saint Iohn spea­keth of the woman persecuted by the Dragon, Reuel. 12. is meant of the Church, for the place doth plainely interprete it selfe, when he saith in the last verse of the Chapter, That the Dra­gon was wrath, and went and made warre against the remnant of her seede, which keepe the commandements of God, and haue the testimony of Iesus. Behold, how he shew­eth [Page 37] there that this Church should be nourished in the wildernesse for a time, times and halfe a time, from y ^e presence of the Dragon Where was then the visible Church? Where was now dic ecclesiae tell the Church, if ye will vnder­stand it so fully?

Must those things needs be expounded a­gainst vs? Can it not be taken but against the Church of Rome?

That Prophesie of S. Paule, of the a­postasie by the man of sinne, and the descrip­tion of the kingdome of Antichrist by S Iohn in the Reuelation, cannot with any shew be turned vppon any other saue the Pope and his Cleargie. But I will come vnto this thing more particularly afterward. Ye cannot now deny but that there might be and was, so great decay of truth by Antichrist, that a man could not alwayes see a visible gouernement of the Church, séeing Antichrist was the head, and al things were done at his will & appointment.

You would make the world beleeue what you list: but let them beleeue ye that will. It is a like matter that God wold forsake the Church so many hundred yeares, & suffer all our forefathers which were better then we to be deceiued and to perish. No, no, I would we were like them: they were wiser then we are. It is maruell that they should be so farre wide, and no man to reproue them. There is no wise man, but he will take it to be the more surer way to cleaue to so many godly [Page 42] and wise forefathers, and good Saints, then to take part with a few scismatikes and new fangled rash heads, which will not sticke to condemne and ouerthrow all good orders, be they neuer so anci­ent. Oh, this corrupt age, whither will it tend at the last?

What we go about, or would make the world beléeue, God himselfe is both wit­nesse and Iudge: to him and to his holy truth we appeale. It is not like that God would for­sake his Church so many hundred yeares: no hee neuer forsooke it one houre, no not euen when it seemed to be quite destroyed and wa­sted by Antichrist. He neuer suffered all our forefathers to be seduced and to perish: neither did he euer suffer any one of our godly forefa­thers to perish: he forsooke Antichrist and his brood, as a den of theeues, which forsooke him: he forsooke all those which receiued not the loue of the truth that they might be saued: and sent them strong delusions to beleeue lyes: that so they might be damned: as S. Paule setteth it forth. 2. Thes. 2. This was neither all the forefathers, nor yet so many hundred yeres as you seeme to note: for the most part of your Antichristian religion hath not as yet seene sixe hundred Sommers: And in those times there were e­uer some which cried out of your corrupt do­ctrine and wicked maners He is the right wise man which doth not leaue to, nor depend vpon the multitude of men: but doth cleaue to the [Page 39] word of truth, and to those which imbrace the same, although they be neuer so few. If we condemne any thing but that which the Lord himselfe doth condemne: and ouerthrow any orders but such as he telleth vs to be disorders, although they haue had long continuance, you might wel tearme vs schismatikes & new fan­gled: but seeing we do nothing but that which is warranted by his mouth, your blasphemies are against him. This corrupt age (as you tearme it) if God prosper his Gospell, wil ne­uer cease vntill it haue pluckt downe the Ro­mish monster.

By your owne words then they haue beene deceiued these fiue or sixe hundred yeares: could all the world so damnably erre thus long? or is it to bee thought, that in all those yeares, the most part, or as you say, almost all were cast away, for they were alwayes very few in nūber which haue refused to obey the Church of Rome?

Within that compasse of time which I named (as it is most euident by many ancient writers) the most part of your abhominable a­buses haue bene established: yet ye cannot ga­ther that all the world haue erred so long, be­cause we say your Romish Sinagogue hath: for you neuer had any more indeede but a cor­ner of the world vnder your Pope: your do­minion was only in Europe: as for Asia and Affrica, which refused to be of your faction, [Page 40] they are far the greater regions as the coun­tries of Grecia, India, Chaldea, Egypt, Ethio­pia, and a great number besides these. Let a man reason with you thus: either all these were deceiued or else you: so that of necessity you shall be forced to confesse, that God suffe­red so great multitudes to erre. But what ab­surdity is there in that, seeing the holy Scrip­tures do shew that of old God chose the seede of Abraham only to be his Church, & cast off the Gentiles to walke after the vanities of their owne hart: these were a farre greater multi­tude then euer your Popish rout, and three times as many hundred yeares as you, they might alleage for the antiquity of their re­ligion. Might not these haue obiected against S. Paul and the rest of the Apostls: what, were all our forefathers for these thousands of yeares cast away? they neuer heard of this new religion of Christ, were there not a number of great wise men among them? Shal we forsake all these, and the faith which they haue taught vs, in so many learned and excel­lent bookes, and follow a few of you? No doubt a great multitude of madde fooles, such as you Papistes are, did reiect and condemne the Gospell of Christ with that reason. I say still therefore, that hee is wise which stic­keth fast to Gods word, and not to the mul­titudes of men: nor to the antiquity which they can alleadge.

It pleaseth you to tearme vs what ye list: but it is no matter, your words are no lawe. I could aunswere you well enough, but I perceiue it is but to small purpose: a man were as good to hold his peace for let neuer so great reason be al­leadged, you are so blind that you do not vnder­stand it.

Indeed you do but loose your labour, if you thinke to perswade me vnto your mind: your stuffe is ouer course to entice any wise man frō the truth. Ye may seeme to old simple soules (whose eyes ye haue put out) to be excel­lent men, and they will nod, & sooth your say­ings, when ye tell them this & that of forefa­thers, & what a goodly world it was, & y ^t your religion hath euer since Christ bin continued: although indeed ye need not tell so great a lie to perswade them: for it is euen enough to draw them wholy, to say but this, your father, your grandfather, and your great grandfa­ther beleeued thus, will not you doe as they did? but shew your words once to a man, al­though a simple man, which hath but euen a little tasted, & hath but some smacke of Gods word, and he will iudge them by and by to bee counterfeit, and very bables, so that they can moue none but children & fooles. And therfore seeing as the Apostle S. Peter saith, 2. Pet. 2. Ye should beguile but vnstable soules, and such as Saint Paule doth say, are like children caried away with euery puft of vaine doctrine: Ephes. 4 all men are [Page 38] to be exhorted to grow and increase in vnder­standing of Gods holy will, that they may bee able to espie such draffe and filthy dregges as you offer them, not to be wholesome vnto the soule.

Then you are able to make a simple man to be so well lettered (as you say by the spirite) as to iudge in so high causes: you that can do so much, can be able to absolue me in a great doubt, or else you shall shew your selfe to bee a very vaine man. Tell me then, how shall a man know whether he hath the spirite of God or not, and when he beleeueth this doctrine or that doctrine, and is perswaded that the spirite of God doth teach him: how shall he be sure as you say, that he hath the right spirite? all sorts of heretickes doe perswade themselues that they haue the spirite. May not a man be deceiued, and suppose he hath the spirite of God, when it is a spirite of errour?

Here is a great doubt, and a meruel­lous hard question propounded: how a man shall know whether he hath the spirit of God, &c. This is so hard a case, that a man had neede to take long deliberation to make aunswere. Well may this be one question and doubt in your religion, and a matter so far beyond your reach, that you do suppose an impossibility: it doth manifestly declare y ^t your acquaintance hath bene very litle or rather none at all with the spirit of God, that ye neither know him, [Page 39] nor yet can perceiue how he may be knowne? Cā ye know fire from water, or can ye know an Appletree from a Crabtrée?

Ye haue made a great speake. What if I can know fire from water, and a Crabtree from an Appletree? Doth this reason follow, because a man doth know these, therefore hee may know the other? Is your comparison equall? These things wee see, feele, handle, and taste, the other we do not. Ye must bring other maner of geare then this, or els a man may craue leaue to laugh at ye.

I cannot let ye to laugh, if it be your pleasure euen your belly full, but yet it must be at your owne follie. For the matter well waied and vnderstood, peraduenture ye may shew your téeth, but not laugh very heartilie. Ye can know fire from water, and why, be­cause the nature and working of the one is contrary to the other: ye are able to know an Appletrée from a Crabtrée, because ye taste of the fruite, and they are the one swéete and the other sower. Is there such a working, & qua­litie in the creatures that they may thereby be knowne? Is there such certaintie to trie the trée and to know it by the fruite? And hath the spirit which made them, and preserueth them, so lost his power, and are his qualities and operations so weake, that he cannot bée discerned from the spirit of the diuell? Are his fruites such as they cannot be discerned from [Page 40] the rotten fruites of the flesh, and the workes of darknes? Ephes. 1. Rom. 8. Saint Paul saith, that we are sea­led with y ^e holy spirit of promise, he willeth mē to walke after the spirit, & not after the flesh: he setteth forth the fruites of the flesh, Galath. 5. and the fruites of the spirit. Rom. 8. He saith, that this spirit doth beare witnesse vnto our spirit, that we are the sonnes of God. This should bee but a weake witnesse if wee should not bée able to know whether we haue him or not. But per­haps all these scriptures & many other which I could cite, haue not light enough in them for your blind eyes: and therefore I will shew ye the thing more fully thus. A man heareth the word of God preached, 1. Cor. 12. it striketh his heart and conuerteth him: wheras before he was as blind as a béetle, now he séeth y ^e light: where­as before he had no loue to the holy word of God, now his hart is inflamed with zeale and delight in it: whereas before his care was of this world, & couetousnes did cause him grée­dily to séeke vnlawfull gaine, now his mind is bent vpon heauenly things, and after them he séeketh: whereas before he was full of adulte­ries, riot, wantonnes, vanity, now his wicked affections are tamed and altered, he much ab­horreth such filthines: and whereas before he could neuer cease doing euill, he was neuer at ease, but when he delighted himselfe in some vngodlinesse: now he is a man quite changed, he doth much lament and sorrow that euer he [Page 41] was so wicked to despise God: all his ioy is now to doe good workes, the feare of God is before his eyes: now féeling this wonderfull chaunge in himselfe, that he is new borne to God, that he is a new creature, he knoweth right well that he is lead by the holy spirit of GOD, and that he hath wrought this new worke in him.

It seemeth by your talke that such as haue receiued the spirit are so sure that they cannot be deceiued. To what purpose then was Saint Paul so carefull to warne the true Christians to take heede? yea we may see, that there were diuers of them seduced. This is quite contrarie to that cer­taintie which you doe speake of.

There is no cōtrariety in these things: for if any were seduced, and drawne away frō the truth vnto destruction, it is most certaine they were neuer sealed with the spirit, but had some small taste. He laboureth with the other, to haue them grow strong, to bee grounded and rooted in the trueth, not to bée as children, carried away with euery blast of vaine doc­trine: for the blessed Apostle Saint Peter de­scribing such false Teachers as you, 2. Pet. 2. sheweth that they shall beguile vnstable soules. Such therefore as will not bee seduced, neither by you nor any other heretikes, must abound in knowledge and grace: for so wee are willed. If the wisedome of the holy Ghost be in vs, and hath inlightened vs, the subtiltie of the [Page 42] diuell, and the power of darknesse shall not o­uercome vs: the power of the holy Ghost is greater then the power of Satan, and for this cause we are sure of victorie. If this were not, we could haue but small comfort: we should he but in woe case. It is not your greasie pope which could helpe vs: which himselfe is ouer­come of the diuell, and obeyeth his will.

Well, well, for this matter, I say still that your doctrine is new, that ye condemne all our forefathers: and whereas you would seeme to proue that it is the ancient Catholike faith, be­cause ye proue it by the Scriptures, I say you proue nothing: for the Scriptures can proue nothing without the interpretation of the Church, you can not interprete, neither can ye iudge, but the great shepheard, whose voyce ye should heare, must giue the sense: therefore I say still that ye be he­retikes all the packe of yee: and but that I spare ye I could bite ye a little better, I am sorie ye bee so wilfull.

When ye haue spent all your pow­der, then yée retire backe againe into your castle, which is so sure as you suppose, that no­thing can batter the walles: but when a man doth view them well, he shall finde them to be but painted clothes. For in very déed ye stand obstinately and frowardly vpon certaine bare affirmations. And when a man hath neuer so strongly confuted and disproued them, yet ye alleadge them still. But let this go, and come [Page 43] to the rest. Ye say ye could, but that ye spare me (or els that ye are musled) bite me a little better, I feare not your teeth, for I trust your biting will not ranckle, not because they bée not venime, but because I am so well defen­sed, that ye cannot fasten your téeth vpon me. But spare not, powre out all your poyson, and doe your worst.

Yee doe but gibe and mocke at those things which I speake: it is euen according to your profession, yee are deriders of good things and of the true Catholike faith: take heede, it is better for ye to repent, and to turne home againe to the holy Church, which ye haue and doe disho­nour. I said that I did spare ye, and it shall appeare now, for I will touch ye a little neerer, and yet but with the trueth: not with all that I might say nei­ther: for it were infinite to rehearse all your abo­minable waies which ye walke in, and are to bee charged withal. A little shall suffice: I say by your wicked and carnall doctrine, euen your new Gos­pell, ye teach all loosenes, and licentious libertie to the flesh. As for example, ye denie the merits of good workes, ye teach that men are iustified by faith, without good deeds: ye teach Election, and Predestination, and denie freewill: and so by this meanes, the people are brought to haue no care of good workes but to liue as they lust: for thus it doth follow, if we be iustified by faith alone, what neede we care for good workes? If we bee chosen and predestinate, and haue no freewill left in vs, to [Page 44] chuse or refuse, then let God alone, wee cannot further nor hinder our selues, what should wee eare, let vs then set cocke a hoope, and take our pleasure while we be here: this is your sweet do­ctrine, thus ye teach.

I néede not maruell to heare ye threa­ten to bite me: whē ye dare open your mouth to blaspheme the Lord God, and to barke like a most filthie and prophane dogge against the most glorious Gospell of Christ. Which (howsoeuer ye belie it) doth teach all heauen­ly puritie, and care of good workes. They bée conclusions of your owne framing, which neither wee teach, neither doe they follow of that doctrine which wée deliuer. The diuell and the flesh reason thus: God hath chosen men, they haue no power of themselues, they cannot deserue or merite by their good déedes, but are iustified by faith alone in the merits of Christ, therefore let them care for no well do­ing, but walke after the carnall desires and lusts of the flesh: what should they care, they can neither further nor hinder themselues? But the holy spirit of God concludeth thus: God chose vs when wée were his enemies, of his owne good will, when wée were not able so much as to thinke a good thought: there­fore wee are bound to yéeld all praise and ho­nour vnto him. He hath of his infinite loue giuen vs his deare and onely be gotten sonne, for to redéeme vs, and to iustifie vs: therefore [Page 45] we ought to shew our selues louing and kinde vnto him againe, to serue, honour, and obey him, in all true obedience, and holy conuersa­tion. What should I stand to recite testimo­nies of Scripture to proue these conclusions, and to ouerthrow yours, when as euery poore man which hath any delight in y ^e sacred Bible, is able for to sée them? They bee worse then bruite beasts which haue not learned this out of the word, that God hath chosen his people, hath by his frée grace redéemed and iustified them, to the end they may be holy, & zealous of good workes: although not to merit withall, which they cannot, yet to glorifie GOD, as Christ saith: Let your light so shine before mē, Matth. 5, that they may sée your good workes, & glorifie your father which is in heauen. Likewise hée saith: Herein is my father glorified, Iohn 15. that yée grow and bring forth much fruite. We teach with S. Iohn, 1. Iohn 3. he that worketh righteousnesse is borne of God, he that committeth sinne is of the diuell. We teach with Christ, Iohn 8. that hée that committeth sin, is the seruant of sin. We teach with Saint Paul, Rom. 8. that those which are in Christ walke not after the flesh, but after the spirit. We teach with S. Iames, Iames 2. that that faith which is without good works is dead, & there­fore cānot iustifie & saue a man. It is not faith but a dead picture and shew of faith, which the diuels haue. The true faith cannot bee with­out good workes. So that wee teach a [Page 46] necessitie of good workes: not to merit or to iustifie, but to shew foorth the fruites of our calling.

Ye say that ye doe not teach libertie to the flesh, nor giue men leaue to liue as they will: nor that your doctrine doth not destroy good deedes: but shall wee giue more credite to your words, or to the successe, and fruites which we see to follow of your doctrine? He that will rightlie trie what your doctrine is, let him looke what fruites it doth bring forth. What better and more sure triall can a man require then this? I trow ye will not refuse to bee tried by this rule. Then let vs come vnto it, your holy doctrine, how commeth it to passe that it doth bring forth so many sowre fruites? Was there euer more sinne committed? VVhat fowle wickednesse is it which doth not flow in your streetes? You may compare with the Sodomites, for your gluttonies, wantonnesse, whoredomes, pride, couetousnesse, and such like. VVhat good thing can a man see in your Clergie, which should giue good example to others, and whose pure conuersation should be a paterne for other to follow? How many of them are there which are men voide of all learning and grace? who hauing spent their time lewdly, and consu­med their substance, when they cannot tell how to liue, step into the ministerie, or at the least co­ueting to liue at ease, and shunning to worke, be­ing scarce sit for the plow, much lesse for the pul­pit, yet are admitted by your heauenly Gospell, to [Page 47] be masters in Israel. How many wanton fleshly adulterers are there among them? How couetous, how worldly, how ambitious are your learned men? Doe not all men see how they preach and take on, vntill such time as they be loden with li­uings, and are got vp as high as they can, and then as though they had wonne the vpshot, they put vp their arrowes into their quiuer, and vnbend their bowes: they neede not any further to trouble themselues? But what neede I speake, when the matter it selfe doth as it were make open procla­mation? Your common people, seeing they haue no better examples, are giuen ouer to all kinde of naughtinesse. If ye can proue this to be holesome doctrine, which doth bring forth and allow such things as these, I will be no longer a Catholike.

If I should answere ye onely with this, that your euill fruits do farre passe ours, although it were most easie to be proued, yet should I make but a slender answere: because that in ouerthrowing you, we should also cō ­demne our selues. For this I must néeds con­fesse with yee, that the doctrine which doth bring forth euill fruites cannot bée good. And a good triall I doe confesse of the doctrine, to be in the good fruits which it doth bring forth. When ye charge vs that all abominable sins do flow in our stréetes, we do also with great griefe acknowledge it. And this farre I allow your sayings: but whē ye ascribe these things to our doctrine, as the fruites, which it doth [Page 46] [...] [Page 47] [...] [Page 48] bring forth: there I doe disallow ye, as a blas­phemer of God, and his most pure trueth. For it is not because our doctrine doth allow, much lesse bréede such euils, that they bee a­mong vs, but because our doctrine which is the holy word of God, is of the most men de­spised, and not knowne. The Lord by sundry of his prophets doth complaine of the Iewes, and accuseth them to bée worse then the hea­then: was therefore the law and doctrine which he had giuen them, to bée blamed? No, they refused to walke in his ordinances, and so doe the people at this day. The Lord bée blessed there are a number (although farre the lesse number which lie as scattered cornes in a great heape of chasse) which haue imbra­ced the holy doctrine of the Lord, and doe ex­presse it in their liues, & do euery day mourne for the abominations of Hierusalem: and earnestly doe desire that the Lorde would purge it. If either our doctrine did allowe such abuses, or those which doe sincerely im­brace it, walke in them, then your wordes which yée vtter might haue some weight in them: but séeing it is otherwise, ye remaine still with the rest of your companions, a wic­ked blasphemer of the holie word of God. As for that which ye vtter against our Clergie, it maketh nothing at all against vs: vnlesse ye could proue that our doctrine doth allow such. But ye may sée the contrarie, for our [Page 49] Gospell doth allow none but learned Tea­chers, and godly Pastours, which expresse the worde in their conuersation: those which Saint Paul alloweth vnto Timothy and Titus, 1. Tim. 3. Titus 1. those doth our religion allow, and none else. If any haue preached diligently, and when they are once come to promotion haue giuen ouer, it is plaine, they sought themselues, and not the Lord Iesus: will ye lay the fault of such vngodly men vpon the doctrine. Cease therefore, not to bee a true Catholike, which ye neuer were, but an obstinate blinde here­tike, without true vnderstanding.

Better is a bad scuse then none at all. For­sooth the doctrine must not bee blamed, but the men: but I pray ye for your Clergie, why are those things maintained? Are they vnknowne? If not, why are they borne? Answere this, and then ye say somewhat to the purpose.

When I haue answered it you shall gaine little. For as I may most easily prooue that Gods word which is our religion, doth allow no such ministerie, so may I as easily shew, that all this corruption in the ministe­rie came from you, wée may rue the time that euer your corrupt lawes and orders in matters for the Ministerie tooke place in the worlde, because the very Reliques of them are deadly wheresoeuer they remayne, and doe poyson the Church of GOD: the most filthie and cursed abominations [Page 50] in the liues of the Ministers, and other abuses began among you. Ye haue no cause to boast of the goodnesse of your Priests, nor of their learning, looke vpon those of them which at this day doe remaine in our Church, not as standers, but as poore rotten stakes in an hedge: the people may here and there, (al­though twentie yeares and od haue greatlie wasted them) sée how graue Diuines & godly Prelates were among you. As for the main­tenance of such things among vs, I say still we defie all such abuses, we allow none other ministerie but such as S. Paul describeth. If a­ny man doe defend an vnlearned ministerie which is not able to guide the flocke of Christ, or to build vp the temple of God: or if any doe beare with vice in the ministers, they doe fol­low Antichrist, and not S. Paul: they are then become enemies of Christ, and fighters toge­ther with you against the Gospell, destroyers and rooters vp of the Lords vineyard, which is to be dressed and kept by expert and skilfull labourers. You must learne therefore not to slander the most glorious Gospell, nor to lay the blame of such things vpon it, but for to finde the fault where it is.

I cannot denie, but that in words ye doe seeme for to allow such as Saint Paul willeth they should be: but when it commeth to the perfor­mance, ye doe vtterly faile: for hauing many lear­ned men, ye haue none godly: all of them giuen [Page 51] ouer to some fowle vice or other: as to be ambi­tious, couetous worldlings, idle bellies, gluttons, proud prelates, vaine boasters, or such like.

I perceiue your subtill craft well e­nough: ye describe our learned men by these fowle vices, when ye meane your popish cler­gie. For from the top of yours euen to the bottome: euen from the triple crowne, vnto the bare footed frier, al these vices, and a great number more doe abound. The Lord be bles­sed that in our Church and other Churches of his Gospell, hath raised vp a great number whom he hath prepared and sanctified by his spirit: which doe giue testimonie of their pu­ritie, both before GOD and men: that they seeke not themselues nor the world, but onely to build vp the Church of Christ. As for other which are defiled with any of those crimes which you doe name, I say still, they bee not the workmen by whom God will build his house: they bee rather fit to set vp the king­dome of Antichrist, and although they should take vpon them with neuer so great profes­sion to defend the truth, yet because they pro­fesse godlinesse in word, Titus 1. and haue denied the power thereof, God doth not acknowledge them to be on his side: neither will any godly man account them true professors.

VVill ye allow none to be of your side, but such as bee free from those forenamed vices or such like. Alas where is your Church become? [Page 50] [...] [Page 51] [...] [Page 52] where shall a man finde a companie of those rare birds which you speake of? take the people and their teachers together. VVho are they among ye which are not accused in some such crime or o­ther?

I say still, that because God hath al­lowed none to bée his redéemed and chosen, but those whom he doth also sanctifie: we al­so doe allow none, neither of the teachers nor of the people, to bee the true friends of the Gospell, but such as doe yéeld and shew their obedience thereunto, and expresse the doc­trine thereof in their conuersation. How small soeuer the number of such séeme vnto your bleared eyes for to bée, they are the true Church of GOD, and moe in number farre, then you could wish. I know if all should be guiltie which are accused, then your saying were true: but when it is most euident that the more godly a man is the more he is subiect to false accusations and slanders: euen as our Sauiour himselfe was, and his Apostles, and other most godly which succéeded them: your reason is very weake, when ye say all are ac­cused: for, doth it by and by follow, that all are guiltie?

I confesse that our Church if ye vnderstand the whole assemblie, is full of all wicked vi­ces: but shall Gods word be blamed for that? There are a number among vs which are of your broode, whose euill life is séene well e­nough: [Page 53] there are a very great nūber of méere worldlings, which doe not greatly estéeme a­ny religion, although they seeme now because of lawes, to allow and fauour our side, yet in their hearts they rather cleaue vnto you: which is euident by this, that they can better away with the friendship and familiaritie of a ranke Papist, then of a zealous godly prote­stant: they will highly commend the one, and deepely condemne the other. Thus yee shall haue them speake: such a man, indéede I cannot praise him for his religion, I let him a­lone for that, he shall answere for himselfe, I would he were of a better opinion, but for his behauiour there is not a better man. As for such and such, I cannot tell what to make of them, they are so holy, and so precise, that they haue forgotten all good fellowship. Thus you and your fauourers among vs, agréeing in a carnall and euill conuersation, and filling all the land full of naughtinesse: doe charge the Gospell and holy religion of God, which doth most seuerely condemne and curse all such a­buses. I will not stand in particular reciting of those vices which you Papists do ioyne in, and allow in our carnall protestāts, it would be ouer long, a man might make a long booke of that matter alone.

I confesse there be many which care not what religiō be, so they may liue in wealth & ease: but what are those vices w ^c we do ioyne with thē? [Page 54] Ye make a very liberall accusation of great and foule matter, although ye say it would be too long to recite the particulars, to intreate vpon them, yet ye may name them.

In few words I may name some, if that will pleasure ye: our carnall protestants are couetous greedie worldlings, craftie in their dealings to séeke all aduantages against those with whom they deale, full of vsurie and briberie: and these things are also in you, our carnall Gospellers are very fowle mouthed in slaunderings, railings, ribaldries, and hor­rible othes: these things ye make no cōscience of. Our carnall protestants are giuen ouer to spend their time in gluttonies, drinkings, vaine pleasures, and vnlawfull exercises: these are your veniall sinnes, and whosoeuer will not runne with ye to powre out them­selues in the same excesse of riot, they are pre­cise fooles: more nice then wise: they do it but of vaine glorie and singularitie.

Ye may bee ashamed to charge vs with such things, seeing our Church hath alwaies vsed so sharp discipline vpon such offenders: you may iustly be charged, because ye let loose the raines vnto all vices: yee giue the flesh the swinge: yee haue no discipline among ye, to make men stand in awe.

We may be ashamed to speake truth of you: but you must not once blush at the matter when ye blaspheme the glorious Gos­pell [Page 55] of Christ: and why? onely because ye are past shame: but let your words goe, and come to your matter. You may not in no case bée blamed for such vices, which haue alwayes holden men in awe with sharpe discipline, and corrected the offenders. It is well knowne to al wise mē what your discipline was: true it is that ye did hold men wonderfully in awe, but of whom? not of God, but of the Romish pre­late. No man durst wagge his finger against him: no man might once finde fault with any of his dirtie inuentions, vnder paine of his ex­treme and heauie curse. But each man might liue as he lust in all vices against God: onelie he must confesse his sinnes to the priest, and receiue a certaine penance, to fast certaine daies, or to goe on pilgrimage to some Saint: or to haue the Popes pardon for a péece of mo­ney, not onely for his sinnes past, but also for those which he should afterward commit. O­thers when they had committed some horrible sinnes, must whip themselues, and so at it a­gaine. Thus your holy pope, did open the gate to all vncleannes, and therefore in the Scrip­tures is called the man of sinne.

This seemeth very strange to me, how pe­nance and correction should open the gate vnto all sin. It seemeth by your words, that men would loue sinne the better, because it should bee puni­shed. I would wish ye to be better aduised in your words, for I could take ye in many such absurdi­ties: [Page 56] but I am almost ashamed to recite them, they bee so childish trifles, to come from any one of your coate, which professe learning. But let me see how you shut vp the gate against sinne, which inioyne no penance or correction. It is a world to see the vanity of mens minds, which per­swade themselues, that they can make men be­leeue the crow is white: alas your poore Sophi­strie is not able to doe this. Yet I perceiue ye haue some grace in ye, for I trow ye blush.

It would make any man blush I trow, to be taken in such a trip, and so to ouer-shoote himselfe, as I haue done, by affirming that your discipline did open the gate vnto al sinne. For can such sharpe penance, as to fast three daies together with bread and water: or to go bare footed to our Ladie of Walsingame: or for a man to whip himselfe vntill the blood follow: or to giue ten shillings for a pardon, make men loue sinne the better? This geare I trow would scarre them, and make them to haue little lust to sinne. Oh no good sir, this is nothing so sharpe as hell fire: men finde such a swéete taste in sinne, that if they may escape so they will not care. The adulte­rer hath such pleasure in his vncleane lust, that he will to it againe, if he may be perswa­ded it be but a whipping matter. The drun­kard will haue one pot of ale the more, if he may heale the matter againe by drinking a cup of water. The enuious and hatefull man [Page 57] will haue one fling at his enemie, if a payre of old angels will dispatch the matter, and pro­cure his pardon at the hands of the holy fa­ther: and so in each sinne. O yée holy hell-hounds, here is your sharpe discipline, by which ye giue liberty vnto men to turne back to vncleannes, euen as a dogge to his vomite. But while wee reproue your discipline, wée haue none our selues: and so we doe but play the Sophisters, which would take vpon them to proue that the crow is white. Sir, before I come to our discipline, I say our doctrine is this, that vnder paine of Gods curse and eter­nall damnation, men must returne from their wicked waies, and not returne vnto them a­gaine: they must giue vp themselues wholly to serue God in all good workes. As for the discipline of our Church, thus sharp it is, y ^t the obstinate sinner is to be cut off frō the congre­gation, & to be deliuered vp vnto satan & not to he receiued in again, vntil such time as he hath declared very apparant tokens of déepe sorow & harty repentance. Let al men iudge whether this be not to shut vp the gate against sinne.

Now you may very well be likened vnto a man that will make great brags of his riches, when he is nothing worth. A marueilous sharpe discipline ye speake of: but I pray ye where shal a mā find it? euē in your Spirituall courts, for there a mā if the officer cannot get his fee, shall be cursed to the diuell, & throwne out of y ^e church: yea so se­uerely [Page 58] that he shall not be receiued in againe, be­fore he come weeping, vntill the teares drop out of his purse. O yee dissolute teachers of libertie, and maintainers of iniquitie, cease your bragging of those things which are not among ye.

Your blasphemous tongue will neuer cease, vnlesse it be cut out of your head: doo we teach libertie? doe wee maintaine iniquitie? Admit your saying bee true, yet I pray you how slenderly doe you reason, when yée say, that a mā is excommunicated for money, and receiued in againe for money, although they doe not repent: and therefore your Gospell giueth libertie to sinne. Oh good sir, Christ and his Gospell allow no such thing: if men doe offend, doe not you therefore blame the trueth: for there is no equitie nor good dealing in that. What though we haue not the disci­pline of the Gospell in our Church, here in this land, so whole and sound as it should bee, yet because wee allow it, wee pray for it, wee thirst after it, wee confesse the want thereof: we ought not to be charged as those which de­file Gods house, we waite when it shall please God to put into the hearts of our godly gouer­nours to purge the Church by it.

You giue the greater colour vnto the mat­ter, because a few among you speake of such a thing: what is that to the purpose? the whole discipline of your Church, which all those which are your Church doe acknowledge, is established [Page 59] among ye, there is no want confessed.

No man is to regarde what a few or many doe speake, but what God doth speake by his word. Whereas yée affirme that our Church doth acknowledge no wāt, I say our Church doth acknowledge a want: for who are the Church, or of the Church, but such as doe embrace the whole word of GOD? But least ye should still goe forward after your for­mer maner, and say that a few doe this, & not the state of our Church: looke in the booke of our Common Prayer, and there ye shall finde that the graue & godly fathers of our Church, when they did reforme it from Poperie, set­ting down the curses out of Moses, which are to be denounced at a certaine time in the yere: they doe withall set downe and declare their meaning, namely, that this should bee for a time in stead of that discipline, which they can not onely confesse to bee wanting, but also greatly to be desired: as they wished for it.

I cannot tell what the fathers of your Church doe set downe there, neither doe I minde to looke. VVhen ye haue said all that yee can, yee shall be driuen to confesse that there is all loose­nes and libertie vnto the flesh among ye. Ye haue feasting and gluttonie, in stead of fasting. O our good forefathers, how much are ye vnlike them? they did oftentimes fast and punish their bodies, and goe in sackcloth: these new Gospellers haue found a more easie way, they can doe all contrary [Page 60] and yet goe to heauen neuerthelesse. Our fathers liued in great straightnes, and these walke at li­bertie: which of these shall we like best? shall we forsake them and allow of these? No, Christ tel­leth vs, The way is straight which leadeth vnto heauen. If euer any walked in that way, they were our forefathers, which punished themselues, and liued so deuoutly.

If there bee loosenes and libertie a­mong vs, it is by them which obey not the Gospell, which calleth them from all sinfull lusts of the flesh, vnto the obedience of Gods holy wil. The right fast which the Scripture doth commend is in estimation among vs: we doe not onely write and speake of it, but also haue and are ready for to practise it, both pub­likely and priuately. That which you brag of is not the true fast: for although a man cram his bellie neuer so full of fish, so that hée ab­staine frō flesh, you call it a fast. Swéet wines and daintie iunkets are allowed in your fast. Moreouer ye fast, when ye doe it in the most straight maner, and pine your selues, to a most wicked and abominable end: for ye doe it as a worke which is meritorious, ye séeke remis­sion of your sinnes by it: and so ye denie the re­demption by the merits of Christ only: which is so cursed & blasphemous a thing, that it doth turne al your fastings and praiers into sinne. Your fasting is such as God did reproue in the Iewes, by his prophets: and such as the blind [Page 61] Pharisie boasted of, saying: Luke 18. I fast twise in the weeke. Doubtles if the abstaining from meate could make a man holy, the Pharisies should haue béen excéeding holy men, and the ancient Iewes against whom the Lord complained, should haue bin cōmended: but they like hypo­crites fasted from bodily sustenance, and filled themselues with all spiritual wickednes: euen such are you, O ye detestable hypocrites, al­though ye goe sometimes with emptie bellies, yet your soules are as full of sin as euer they cā hold. We haue iust cause to cry out against ye for seducing so many of our forefathers, and making them beléeue that the very broad way to hell, was the norrow & straight way which leadeth vnto heauen. You blind Pha­risies, answere, is that the straight way vnto life, which the starkest hypocrite of all, & the most vngodly men can obserue and walke in as well as other? Is that the narrow gate, which the couetous, the malicious, the adulte­rous and vniust man, can passe in at as well as other? Tell me this, can there not be a le­cherous heart, and a malicious minde in a bo­die couered with sackcloth? Cannot a wicked hypocrite punish his body, pine and whip him­selfe, and yet his sinfull soule within neuer a whit reformed? This then is not the straight way, but the straight way is that which Christ and his Apostles doe teach, which none can finde nor walke in, but the true faithfull [Page 62] man: namely, to denie himselfe, to kil and cru­cifie all sinfull lusts and concupiscences in the heart: to séeke out the will of God, and in all things to obey it. This is the narrow way which all those are to séeke after if they will be saued: all our godly forefathers haue wal­ked in this way, and sought thus to please God: they knew that the kingdome of heauē could not bee purchased by any such outward trifles as you deuised: but that such as will enter in there must bée new borne. No man therefore néede to feare when he walketh in this straight way which we publish by the do­ctrine of the Gospell: because he doth not for­sake our forefathers, vnlesse it be such as haue forsaken the trueth, being seduced by Anti­christ.

VVhat is it which you cannot do, that can so easily proue all the holy deuotion of such as liue a straight life to bee but hypocrisie: but say what ye will, ye shall neuer be able to proue, that such things are trifles, I know well enough that your sect make small account of all religious ob­seruations: let them beleeue ye that will, is it pos­sible that God should refuse those men, which of a good meaning and deuotion are so carefull to please him? which are content to take so great paines to serue him, and are so humble minded, as to refuse nothing by which they may abase them­selues, to please him. O that you heretikes did but a little know how deuoute the minde of the Ca­tholike [Page 63] is: ye would euen bee ashamed that euer ye were so foolish to separate your selues from so holy a companie. But alas the world hath blinded your eyes, and the diuell hath be witched ye so far, that ye care not for any goodnes.

All faithfull Christians doe knowe well enough the blinde deuotion of you Pa­pists: and are so farre from being ashamed to separate themselues from yée, that they giue immortall thankes and praise to God, that he hath opened their eyes to sée the light, and to auoide that strong delusion which you are de­luded withall, what good meaning and deuo­tion so euer yée pretend, what paines so euer ye take, how humble so euer ye séeme to be: yet God will refuse to acknowledge ye for his ser­uants, because ye refuse his ordinances, and deuise toyes of your owne, which ye thrust vpon him, and as it were force him to accept them. If ye did meane well, ye would doe bet­ter: your deuotion is diuellish obstinacie: your méekenes is haughtinesse, in despising God. You haue forgottē what the Lord saith: In vaine doe they worship me, Esay 29. Matth. 15. teaching for doctrines the precepts of men.

VVhere learne you to giue such rayling sentence against the deuotion of holy men, and to iudge? Ye boast of the Gospell, ye haue nothing els in your mouth: and yet the Gospell willeth ye not for to iudge. This doth declare what spirit ye are led with.

If your Romish rowte were holy de­uoute men, then no doubt wee should be found to giue rayling sentence: and if the holy scrip­tures did not warrant vs so to speake of those which are open enemies to GOD, then wée might iustly be blamed: or if wee should enter so far as to iudge of the secrets of mens harts, & not where the word of God doth pronounce the iudgement, then were wee to be condem­ned: but séeing the word doth teach y ^t which we vtter, wee neither giue rayling sentence, neither doe wee iudge, otherwise then to pro­nounce out of Gods trueth, what is holy, and what is wicked and abominable.

Proue those things which you haue said out of the word, as that good intents are not plea­sing to God: that when men are deuout and take paines to serue God, it is diuelish: and other such like, and I wil be your bondman while I liue.

Good intents doe please God: God doth require that men should be deuoute, and take paines to serue him: and vnlesse these things bee in them they are not his seruants. But yours are no good intents but phantasies of your owne braine: for they procéede not of faith, because they bee not ordered by Gods word, Rom. 14. but against the word: and whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne. Your worship being not framed after the will of God, but procée­ding from your owne liking, is no more but blinde deuotion, when ye haue taken all the [Page 65] paines ye can, and haue wearied your selues, this shall bee your reward: Esay 1. Who required these things at your hands? Who did set ye a worke, and appoynt ye this seruice? As con­cerning such kinde of worship as yours, the Apostle doth call it will-worship: for when he hath spoken of commandements and doc­trines of men, he addeth thus: Colos. 2. Which things haue a shew of wisedome, in voluntarie wor­ship, and humblenesse of minde, and not spa­ring the bodie: which things are of no estima­tion, séeing they pertaine to the filling of the flesh. This place of Saint Paul well obser­ued, doth fully and cléerely without any expo­sition quite ouerthrow all your Popish reli­gion. For he sheweth, that before GOD all such trash is of no estimation. Againe, his description doth so fitly paynt out Poperie, and that which you bragge of, as nothing can bee more apt. Marke well euery branch and member of his words, and ye will confesse the same. He demaundeth of the Colossians, how it commeth to passe, that if they be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, that they bee burdened with traditions? Colos. 1. as touch not, taste not, &c. Which things perish in their vse: and therefore this conclusion is to bée drawne out, that the eternall and spirituall kingdome of GOD, doth not consist in such things. For how should the kingdome of God consist in those things which perish?

Ye would make somewhat of nothing: that place of S. Paul is not against vs. If yee haue none other, ye cannot ouerthrow our religion.

Ye doe interrupt me in the middest of my matter, onely to cauill, because ye are loth to haue this place of scripture touched, seeing it doth so fully open and display your wardes. Because ye say it maketh not against ye, and would faine passe from it, I will leade ye to it by the eares. Doth not your religion stand in outward things which perish in their vse? Are not your traditions the commandements and doctrines of men? Let all the world iudge of that. And Saint Paul doth make that a suffi­cient reason to ouerthrow any thing whatso­euer, in the seruice of God. If it bee of man, the holy Ghost would haue vs make no fur­ther inquisition, but to take it for dung, and draugh, how goodly soeuer it séeme and glister as gold. Esay 29. Matth. 15. Doth not the Lord also say: In vaine doe they worship me, teaching for doctrines the precepts of men? Well, to goe forward, these deuises of yours are marueilously well liked, and the people of the world, are made very deuoute towards God by them: indéede the people of the world doe like well such re­ligion, and it carrieth them to a kinde of deuo­tion, & to estéeme such matters to haue great wisedome in them. Therefore the Apostle doth say, that those inuentions of men haue a shew of wisedome: and the people vse to say, [Page 67] I warrant ye our fathers which deuised these things, were wise men. But marke well the causes which the Lord doth set downe, why these things séeme to haue such wisedome, and why they be so well liked of. The first cause is, that it is a voluntary religion: a religion which being framed by the corrupt will and braine of men, is very well pleasing to the de­uisers: and doth also fit other men, whose wil and braine is as corrupt as theirs. For as that which procéedeth from the will of God, is contrary to the wisedome of flesh, and there­fore misliked and condemned of folly: so that which commeth out of mans will, is agréeable to man: and therefore approued and commen­ded as the onely wisedome. Thus may we sée (when the Apostle saith, such things haue a shew of wisedome in voluntary religion) how it commeth to passe, that the worship which is set by the policie and inuention of men, is better accepted of, then that which procéedeth from the will of God.

Ye haue enough of that place, vnlesse ye would expound it more truly: there are manie scriptures which make for your purpose, if ye may haue this scope, to take them as ye lust. Leaue off your vaine heape of words, with which ye goe a­bout to bleare mens eyes, and to draw and wrest the Scriptures to your owne sense. It were much better for ye to meddle lesse.

All men may easily see, that this place [Page 68] of Scripture doth bite ye to the bone: no mar­ueile therefore though ye haue enough of it, for lesse would better content ye. There are many Scriptures indéede which make for our purpose, without any wresting at all. Euen as this one place of Saint Paul which we be in hande with, néedeth no wresting to make it speake against you, when as euery blind man which cannot sée, may yet by groping, féele the waight of it against ye. But let your foo­lish words passe which deserue no answere, and come again to the matter The next cause why such draugh as yours, being but the foo­lish and doltish dreames of men, hath such a shew of wisedome: and that is the humblenes of minde which appeareth in such holy hypo­crites as worship God after their own fanta­sie. They doe so abase themselues, and are as méeke and lowly as can be. What can a man deuise to be more hūble then a deuout Papist? he will doe any thing: he is content to bowe downe and to licke vp the dust at the féete of a stock or a stone: he doth so abase himselfe that he is content to worship rotten bones: yea whatsoeuer the holy father of Rome will lay vpon him, he is readie to beare, his minde is so humble. But this is not humilitie, O ye blind asses, but pride and haughtinesse of spirit euen against God, against whom ye presume, and take vpon ye to bee wiser then he, because ye refuse the worship which he hath prescribed, [Page 69] and think ye can frame a better of your owne. This is the humilitie of you Papists, in those good intents, and deuotion which ye bragge so much of: ye are like sturdie Rogues, whom a man would take by their patched cloakes to be gentle and lowly: when as indéede they be excéeding proude and rebellious against all good lawes. The third & last reason which S. Paul setteth downe, why there is such a shew of wisedome in corrupt religiō, is in this clause when he saith, Not sparing the bodie: for look how men which are proude men are moued with a shew of humilitie: so also, although they walke after the flesh, and the flesh raig­neth in them: yet they like of mortification, after a sort, a shew whereof doth appeare in the outward punishing of the flesh, which be­cause they are able to attaine vnto, they take it to goe for good payment: and when they haue pined themselues with hunger for a while; whipped themselues, or gone barefooted, and barelegged, they suppose they haue mortified the flesh. Alas poore wretches, how humble they bée not to spare their bodies, to take such paines to serue GOD, and yet neuer the better. For when their skinne is torne, their heart is whole within still, and as full of all vncleannesse as it was before. These are the things which ye boast of, and y ^e Apostle saith: They be of no price, Colos. 1. because they pertaine but to the filling of the flesh. The Diuell hath [Page 70] bewitched men after this sort, to leade them from the sight of the true mortification of the flesh, through the spirit vnto outward things of no value. Thus we may vnderstand, that all your goodly shew which yee make, is no­thing worth: all your religion is but supersti­tion: they do but lose their labour which tra­uell in it, and are so farre off from pleasing God, that he doth accurse and abhorre their doings.

A man may see what trim shifts you he­retikes can make: but for my part I am not moued one iot thereby to like of your religion. For it cannot be good, when there are so many sects a­mong yee, which it doth hatch and bring forth. For your Gospell doth come into no place, but by and by vp starts one and he doth maintaine this heresie; another he doth maintaine that he­resie, and there is such snatching, as if a man should shake out a bagge full of errors, and euery one catcheth that which doth like him best: for such effect doth follow of your preaching in all places. If it were of GOD, would this come to passe? Can errors arise of true doctrine? No, this were enough to warne all wise men to take heed of ye, and to flie farre from ye, although there were no more. In our religion we are all of one minde, and agree together: and therefore ours is the trueth. All that will be saued, must come and a­gree with vs.

Nothing can moue you to bee of our [Page 71] religion: and why? Because it cannot be good. Nay, because it cannot haue your allowance to be good: for the holy word of God is so per­fectly good, (which is our whole religion) that all the poyson which such venemous beasts as you are able for to vomite vp, is not of force to infect it. But I doe ye wrong, for you shew a great reason why it cannot be good. Well, I will answere it. The reason which ye vse here against vs, is that bolt which ye haue taught euery foole to shoote: but a very course ar­mour will defend a man from it: it giueth but a bumpe, and neuer doth pearce, but rebound backe againe. Neuerthelesse, because among you it is estéemed as a sharpe arrow, and prin­cipall weapon, I will take somewhat the more paines, not onely to view it my selfe, but also to let others sée the power thereof. Trueth it is, that whatsoeuer is of God, or whatsoeuer is good, cannot bring foorth that which is euill: no more then darknesse can bring foorth light, or heate can cause colde: for how can any thing bréede that which is of a quite contrary nature to it selfe. But say you, Wheresoeuer your Gospell commeth, there follow sundrie sects and heresies: one main­taineth this, and another that, with sundry di­uisions. Therfore your Gospell is not of God, it is not the trueth. Before ye make this con­clusion strong and sure, ye must proue, that as all sorts of errors do spring where the Gos­pell [Page 72] is preached, which is so indéede, that in like maner the Gospell is the cause of them and doth bréede them, which ye shall neuer be able to doe. For as Christ and his Gospell bring peace, and yet he saith he came not to send peace, Matth. 10. but a sword, and to set the father against the sonne, and the mother against the daughter: and there shall be fiue in one house, two against thrée, and thrée against two: euen so the Gospell is the trueth, and setteth forth the doctrine of vnitie, and yet wheresoeuer it commeth all kinde of errors spring vp. Now euery wise man will confesse that Christ is the author of peace, and the strife that ariseth betwéene men is not to be imputed to his doc­trine, but to the diuell, and his seruants which warre and fight against vs, because they hate it, and séeke to banish it. The same diuell is the cause of heresies, for to discredite the word of God: wheresoeuer it is taught he setteth vp his schoole also, and will haue his schollers goe vnder the name of the Gospell. For this is one of the readiest waies that can be to bring the word of God into contempt, and to make men afraide of it. Sée, say they, how many he­resies these men fall into, which meddle with the Scriptures: were it not much better that there were no such preaching?

Doe ye then allow of strife, and errors, that ye will needes haue them to be companions of your Gospell?

If ye can gather that we allow of the diuell and his ministers, ye may also affirme that we allow of these, for we ascribe all these to them. They bée no companions of our Gospell, vnlesse yée take it in this sense, that they alway accompanie the same, as vtter e­nemies to ouerthrow and destroy it. The holie Scriptures doe testifie, 2. Pet. 2. that there shall bée false Prophets, false Teachers, and Anti­christs in the Church to seduce the people. 1. Iohn 2. And the experience of all times doth shew the same. Phil. 3. 2. Cor. 10. For were not the false Apostles in all places set against Saint Paul, and the other Apostles? Doe not the bookes and writings of ancient fathers shortly after the Apostles shewe what fowle monsters rose vp in the Church, and what horrible errors did vexe the peace therof? Were not y ^e right Catholike fathers within short time after the Apostles of Christ merueilously troubled with here­tikes, and had as it were their hands full in confuting them? Doe not their bookes re­maine vnto this day in which they doe con­fute them? I wonder greatly how you Pa­pists should bee so shamelesse beasts, as not to denie that the Gospell in those former dayes had so manie and so fowle errours springing vp with it, and yet not to bée bla­med: and now so wickedly to blaspheme it, when yée sée the same thing come to passe: yée might rather beléeue that it is the trueth, [Page 74] because ye sée the same successe now which it had of old, and how the diuell doth sweate to quench and ouerthrow it. Tell me this O ye hounds of hell: did the Gospell hatch or bréed the abominable errors of Ebion, Cerinthus, Saturninus, Carpocrates, Basilides, and such like? Did the Gospell bring foorth the diuelish opi­nions of Arrius, Manicheus, & of others which sprang vp with it? If ye shame to say it did: why then should ye not now be as much asha­med to charge it with the errors of the Ana­baptists, Libertines, and the Family of Loue, and other, which are the warriors of the di­uell as well as you, to fight against the truth? As for this that ye say, You did all agrée, and were of one minde: It is very true in this, to resist God and his Gospell, but otherwise it is false: for ye haue a multitude of sects and sundrie orders amongst ye, which could not one away with the other. Your whole church of Rome is but a schisme, and an Apostasie from the Gospell, and Church of God: and yet among your selues deuided into a great num­ber of sects and schismes. For as among the Corinths, I hold of Paul saith one, I hold of Apollo, 1. Cor. 1. saith another, the third of Cephas: So among you, I am of Benedictus order, I am of Francis, I am of Augustine, and a rablement besides, both of Monks and Friers, and other such vermine. These agréed all in this, that they acknowledged the Pope, and had their [Page 75] confirmation from him, as from the fountaine and maine head, which sent foorth riuers and streames euery way: for he was the head, not of vnitie, but of all schismes. The head indéed of vnitie, as they held all of him, but of diui­sion, that euery one put holinesse in his order, and sought saluation thereby. Ephes. 4. There is but one God, one faith, one baptisme, one Lord Iesus Christ: and therefore but one way to life eternall, how many soeuer you haue in­uented: which indéede are but crooked paths that leade to hell. I let passe your dissention in those poynts which among you should bée of the most waightie things.

I could shew many horrible things against ye, but I see well it is to no purpose: a man were euen as good hold his tongue, he shall haue an­swere at your hands, with so many flim flammes, and toyes. I will leaue ye as I found ye, seeing I can doe you no good: it is but a folly for a man to powre water vpon a stone, to make it soft.

I doubt not but that you and your fel­lowes haue so wel profited in the schoole of the father of lyes, in which ye haue béen trained vp, that yee are able to vtter many horrible things against vs, euē as true, as those which ye haue vttered alreadie. Therefore in very déede yee were better a great deale to holde your tongue, then so shamefully to abuse it in blaspheming the glorious Gospell of GOD. The answers which I doe giue, are such flim [Page 76] flammes as the word of God doth expresse. I thanke God hee hath so opened mine eyes to see his trueth, that euen the most craftie iug­ling of Papists cannot bring mee into any mammering: a man ought to stand fast and to be rooted in the doctrine of the Lord, that is no hardnes, as you estéeme it, neither is yours the water of life, which yee would powre vp­on me, but filthie stinking mud, which ye haue drawne out of the puddle of Poperie. Ye of­fer mee drinke, but not wholesome wine, but dregs, which ye bring in the golden cup of the whore of Babylon. Your cup doth entice ma­ny a simple soule to drinke: for they doe not suspect that such deadly poyson should be offe­red in so goodly a cup. I beséech God to giue men the wisedome to looke what is in it before they drinke.

What meane ye by this goodly Allegory? what is that golden cuppe which ye speake of, in which ye say we offer ye poyson, and deceiue the simple soules with the gaines of the cup? Can ye tell your owne meaning? Doe ye not speake that which ye doe not vnderstand your selfe in?

Saint Iohn in the Reuelation doth vse this allegory, which you so like a dog scoffe at. Reue. 17. He painteth out the whore of Babylon, with a golden cup in her hand full of abomina­tions: with this she hath made drunken those that dwell vpon y ^e earth. For as I said before, who would suspect that so goodly a cup should [Page 75] be full of poyson? But what is this goldē cup say you, in which wee offer poyson? This is your golden cup, the name of the Catholike Church, which ye brag of: and the name of the forefathers: this is a golden cup: how can a simple man once suspect any euill to be in this cup? Doubtlesse it is onely your cup which deceiueth so many, & allureth them to drinke, and to sucke out euen the dregs of your abo­minations. For ye crie Catholikes, Catho­likes, the Catholike Church, the forefathers: and in this ye bring in al your trumperie, and purchase credit vnto it, because the Catholike Church is very honourable, and true, which name you pretend: the ancient fathers of the Catholike Church are very reuerend, whom you falsly challenge to be of your side. There­fore I say still it is wisedome to looke what is in your cup, and not to be hastie to drinke.

I tolde ye euen now that although I might say much, yet because I see it is to little purpose, that I will giue ye ouer.

I must not giue you ouer: for as you haue vttered your slaunders against the Gos­pell of Christ, so you must giue me leaue to lay open some of those abominations which you are iustly to be charged withall.

It is no matter what ye say, I doubt not but that I shall be able to defend our holy Mo­ther from all your spitefull accusations. Say the worst ye can.

When I haue said the worst that I can, I shall yet come short of the matter. For what tongue is able to expresse the full wic­kednesse of Babylon, the mother of whore­domes and abominations: which did in pride lift vp her selfe against God, and his trueth? and made all nations drunken with the wine of her fornication.

I tell ye this is but to raile and slander, vn­lesse ye be able to make proofe of that which ye say: but I looke for no such thing at your hands: for your sect is wont to accuse deepely, and to proue slenderly.

I mind to say nothing but that which I will proue, and that more strongly then wil be to your liking. Your dealing is manifest to all men: and your euill meaning may soone be espied, vnlesse men will be wilfully blind. Are ye not like vnto whores and théeues, & other malefactors, which put out the light and seeke darknesse to couer them, that they may not be séene, when they commit euill. What is your purpose when ye remoue the word of GOD from the sight of the people, and doe as it were bury it in a strange tongue? Is it not the light to guide our steps? Psal. 119. Is it not the foode of our soules? What is your intent, that ye would not haue the people know it?

I see there is nothing so honestly done, but euill men will suspect it, as you compare our do­ings with whores and theeues, because wee allow [Page 79] not the people to reade the scriptures in a knowne tongue. But I answere, that yee may keepe your comparison to your selfe: for our wise ancestors did not take the scriptures from the lay people, of any euill intent: but because the common people did abuse them, and gather errors out of them. It is a very dangerous thing for vnlearned men to meddle with or to reade the scriptures: they bee darke, and hard to be vnderstood, euery man can not gather the true sense of them. You are fooles, and therefore ye are not able to iudge of the wise­dome of the fathers in our Church: you take that to be amisse, which is done most excellently.

We are ouer suspicious, for your in­tent is good: your honestie is such, that ye may be trusted in the darke: ye are shamefull ho­nest men indeede. We are but fooles, and not able to discerne with what wisedome such things are done. Surely wee can no skill of that wisedome, when men take vpon them to be wiser then GOD. But let vs see the wise­dome and good meaning in this thing. This it is, the common people will abuse the Scrip­tures, and gather errors out of them, and ther­fore a dangerous case for thē to meddle there­with: the Scriptures are darke, they bee not able to gather the sense. I know this is a great déepe point of wisedome, among those which sauour the things of men, Matth. 16. and not the things of God. But trie it and it shall ap­peare to be extreme follie, and those which ap­proue [Page 80] thereof are very doltish asses: although for worldly wit they haue déepe heads, and excell a number of other men. For looke how a cunning artificer, when he steppeth out of his owne shop, and medleth with a science be­yond his reach, is no body: euen so the wise­dome of the world when it will be so busie, as to controule the wisedome of God, disgraceth her selfe. God is here checked for giuing such a word, it is better to remoue it away: er­rors, errors, doe spring by it. It is hard to bée vnderstood: God might haue dealth more plain­ly. O ye blasphemous wretches: what will ye charge God and his holie word withall: hath he in such wise declared his blessed will to men, that it were better they were without it? Haue the sacred Scriptures so little profit in them, that they bee better vnknowne then knowne? Moreouer see how ye reason: men doe abuse the Scriptures, and gather errors of them, therefore they are to bee remoued. This reason is the like, men abuse meate and drinke, and become drunkards and gluttons: therefore it were good to make a law to de­barre them those things. The bodie cannot liue without meate and drinke: the soule can not be saued without the word. Some doe a­buse meate and drinke, shall therefore all bée debarred? Some doe peruert the worde to their destruction, shall all other therefore bee depriued, and want the most necessarie vse [Page 81] thereof? No, this is but a craft which yée vse to make men afraid to search the Scriptures, least they should espie you: for there euerie man may easily learne to iudge of your dea­lings. You know well enough, y ^t when the people come to know the will of God (which you are loth they should) then they little e­stéeme your will. Ignorance is the strongest pillar of your religion, and as you terme it, the mother of deuotion. For so soone as men haue a litle knowledge of God, their zeale towards you is quenched: when they see once the true treasure, they will no more of your trash. In déed I cannot blame ye, that ye labour to put out the light, and to hold men stil in darknes, because the light will vncouer your shame.

VVhen should wee come to an end, if I should answere all your words? You confesse that some do abuse the word, & gather errors out of it: I suppose then, that euery wise man will grant, it were better for these that the Scriptures were taken from them. And who can tell which they be, vntill it bee too late? VVere it not better to worke the surer way, so that no one may fall into that danger. You care not as it seemeth for the losse of a few soules: but the price of the soule is so great that ye should be carefull, if it were but for one. Moreouer, we do not remoue the word away, but from those which are vnmeete to deale with it: we doe not say it were better vnknowne thē knowne: but to such as will abuse their know­ledge. [Page 82] In good sooth me thinketh ye ouershoote your selfe greatly, very reason doth leade a man to see that it is not a seemely nor fit thing for Tom carter, when he hath laid downe his whip, to take vp the bible. Let him meddle with that which he can skill of, and leaue the Scriptures to such as haue learning to iudge of them.

I would be very loth to kéepe ye com­panie, vntill ye should answere all my words: the time will bee so long that if ye should fast vntill ye had done, the Pope néede not inioyne ye any further penance. A very clarklike rea­son ye make out of that which I grant: some doe abuse the Scriptures, if a man could tell which they were, then it should suffice to take them from those: but because it cannot bée knowne, vntill it bee too late: it is better to worke the surer way: that is to take them from all, and so ye shall bee sure no one shall gather errors out of them. This reason is amplified, by the price of the soule, where also ye charge vs not to care for the losse of a few soules. This is a great reason, I pray ye, if a man might aske, what did it cost ye?

This is a pretie conueiance, when ye are not able to answere, then ye finde a way to make your self merie, ye aske what it cost me, ye should first aske where I bought it.

Nay, I know the chiefe market of such wares is at Louaine, I néede not aske where ye bought it. But I am sure ye bought [Page 83] it too deare, although it cost ye nothing, be­cause it was not worth the taking vp. But ye say I cannot answere ye: Yes that I can: I say ye are like to a great wise man, who ha­uing one shéepe dead of the rot, by feeding in his pasture, doth knocke all the rest downe and destroyeth them, casting them away least some one more should be infected. For because some doe peruert the Scriptures to their own destruction: 2. Cor. 3. and because the Gospell is the sauour of death vnto death, in some, therefore you will cast away all the rest with them. For what other thing doe ye, when ye take from them the food of life, and all the armour wher­with they should defend themselues against the spiritual enemie. Your reason were some­what worth, if men could bee saued without the knowledge of Gods word: but because they cannot, therfore ye may put it vp againe, vntill it bee better growne. For your other words, God gaue the Scriptures for all his people to reade and learne, and therefore yée are murtherers of soules, and arrant théeues when ye depriue the people of God of the wa­ters of life, and in stead thereof giue them the stinking waters of your owne inuentions. And howsoeuer it pleaseth you to estéeme of the common people (whom ye doe in disdaine set forth by Tom Carter) and thinke it no reason to lay downe the whip, and to take vp the Bible: yet you must know they are the [Page 82] [...] [Page 83] [...] [Page 84] people of GOD, redéemed by the blood of his sonne, vnto whom the Gospell doth belong, and they haue as great interest and full right in it as any other: GOD hath promised to teach it them, and also doth teach it them. You are like the Scribes and Pharisies, which cō ­demned those which followed Christ, because they were of the common people: Doe any of the Princes (say they) or of the Pharisies beléeue in him? Iohn 7. But this multitude which know not the law is accursed. Those proude Prelates thought the people had no vnderstā ­ding of Gods word, when they vnderstood it better then they: euen so it shall be found, that many a poore plowman hath more right and sincere knowledge of Gods word, then all your horned Bishops and great Rabbines.

Truly I cannot but marueile to heare ye: cannot the people bee saued without the Scrip­tures bee in their hands? Can they not doe well without the knowledge of Gods word? Is it not enough for them to beleeue in Christ, and to liue vprightly? Must they needs meddle with y ^t which is so far aboue their reach? See I pray ye, what case you set the people in: ye shut thē out from salua­tion, when ye teach that they cannot bee saued without the knowledge of Gods word. For they be not able to know the word. Let the best instru­cted of your common people come for to defend their faith, will they be able to answer such rea­sons, as some can bring against thē? if not, how do [Page 85] they know they hold the trueth? that which they cannot reach vnto, to perceiue may be the trueth for ought that they know. Therfore I say still, that the holy Mother hath done wel and wisely to take the Scriptures out of the hands of lay men. You must proue that the common people are com­manded to reade and studie the Scriptures: which ye shall neuer be able for to doe.

No man can bee saued without faith: faith cannot be without the word: for S. Paul faith, Faith doth come by hearing, Rom. 10. & hearing by the word. How should a mā beléeue, before he doth know what to beléeue? Iohn 3. God doth giue testimony of his sonne, he that beléeueth that testimony, he doth seale y ^t God is true. He that wil beléeue, must know what and how to be­léeue: & therefore of necessity, that he haue the knowledge of y ^e word of God. This doth proue how foolish you are, whē ye aske if it be not e­nough for them to beléeue in Christ, & to liue vprightly? as no wise mā doth doubt but that this is enough: so there is no foole almost, but a man may make him sée, y ^t this can in no wise be without the knowledge of the word. Is it not the word which conuerteth y ^e soule? Is it not the word which lightneth the eyes, and gi­ueth wisedome to the simple? Is it not y ^e word which doth purifie? Psal. 19. Iohn 15. Iohn 8. Is not y ^e word the light to guide our steps? do not they which are of God heare the word of God? Is it not said, Blessed are they which heare y ^e word of God, & kéep it? [Page 86] Is not the man pronounced blessed, Psal. 1. which doth meditate in the law of the Lord day and night? O yee miserable wretches, what whores faces haue you put on, that are not a­shamed to speake directly contrary vnto God. Is it not aboue their reach to beléeue and to obey God? and yet is it aboue their reach to know what to beléeue, and what is the will and pleasure of God, which they are to obey? 1 Can subiects obey their Prince and not know the lawes? Or, doe Princes make lawes, and then kéepe them secret? If not, wherefore should y ^e lawes of the king of kings be secrets? Can any seruant doe the will of his master, and not know what it is? But you haue an other stout argument to proue that the scrip­tures are aboue the reach of the vnlearned, and therefore he is not to meddle with them? he can neuer come to any certaintie of know­ledge by them: for let some man of great lear­ning come and reason with him, and he may make sundry reasons which the other cannot answere: which you take to be a plaine proofe that his knowledge is not certaine, but such as he may be driuen from. Alas what stuffe here is to reason withall against the trueth: such a cauiller as you may méete with some simple plaine man riding vpō his horse, which he doth perfectly know to be his owne, and make such Sophisticall reasons to proue the horse not to be his, or not to be an horse, but a [Page 87] dog, that the simple man cannot answere: yet neuerthelesse, because he is sure it is a horse, and his owne, & not a dog, the other may make many reasons which he vnderstādeth not how to auoide: notwithstanding, they cannot once bring him in doubt, or to goe from that which he knoweth. Euen so al the subtil cauillations of the diuel and his ministers, when they come against the faith and knowledge of a godlie simple man, which is grounded in the word of God, cannot once moue him: the déepe fetches and subtilties may make him muse, but yet be­cause he doth certainly know the trueth, he doth not giue ouer that: he hath felt the power of the word of God in himselfe, and therfore is out of doubt: it hath done that in him which cannot be wrought but by GOD. Vnstable soules may be beguiled: for they haue not felt the power of godlines. Yée would haue mée proue that God commaundeth the vnlearned men to studie and exercise themselues in the Scriptures: I am ashamed to heare ye doubt of that matter.

If ye be ashamed to haue that doubted of, then I trow ye will be ashamed not to proue it.

I would you would be also ashamed of your wilfull blindnesse, and sée, when things are manifestly proued. Did not God vtter his word by Moses vnto the Israelites, both men and women? Did he not giue it them in their owne tongue? Did he not charge them by Mo­ses, [Page 86] [...] [Page 87] [...] [Page 88] euen the lay people, Deut. 6. and 11. that they should put his words vpon their heart, and vpon their soule: and binde them for a signe vpon their hands: and teach them their children: to talke of thē, as they sat in the house, as they walked by the way, when they did lie downe, and when they did rise vp? Hosh. 4. Are not the people blamed both a­mong the Iewes, and also in the time of the Gospell, for their ignorance and dulnes? Are they not exhorted to grow in knowledge and vnderstanding euery where? Heb. 5. Did not Christ and all his Apostles trauell night and day to bring the people to vnderstanding? 2. Pet. 3. Doe not the Apostles pray that they might be filled and abound in all knowledge? Colos. 1. Did they not giue great charge vnto other to teach and féede the flocke diligently? Philip. 1. Acts 20. 2. Tim. 4. Did they not open all the counsels of God vnto the people? Will your holy mother the whore of Babylon bee wiser then all these? Did all these trauell in vaine? Did Paul foolishly when he commaunded that men should not speake in the Church in a strange language, 1. Cor. 14. vnlesse it were interpreted, that so the rest might bee edified? For shame giue ouer, and confesse that your great whore hath done as fowle villanie to the Church of God as could bee, in taking from thē the word of life, and putting out the light, to the ende that she might play the whore, and commit all her abominations in the darke, where none should espie them. The light doth now shine [Page 89] so cléere, that she shall neuer bee able to hide her selfe any more, nor to couer her shame: vnlesse it bee among those Night-birdes, such as you are, which cannot abide the light.

VVould yee make men beleeue that it is commaunded as a thing so necessarie, and profi­table, when we see what followeth since the scrip­tures haue been opened vnto the people? VVhat a multitude of sects and diuisions, and quarrels haue risen? VVhence commeth all this, but that holy things are giuen to dogs, Matth. 7. and precious pearles are cast before swine? The vnholy and vnpure, and sinfull men doe as it were with filthie vn­washed hands, handle the heauenly mysteries, and each man doeth gather for his turne that which liketh himselfe: and then they are puffed vp, and prattle they know not what. I wisse, I wisse, they might bee better occupied, then to meddle with the word of God, which should not be touched but with great reuerence: now euery one will bee pratling of it, euen vpon their ale-bench. Wherefore did Christ speake in parables, Luke 8. Matth. 23. and tolde the Apostles, that to them it did belong to know the mysteries of the kingdome of God, but to the rest in parables, that they might see and not see? Doubtlesse, as I sayd before, there is great cause why the scriptures should not be knowne of the people. When they did not know them, they agreed and went all one way: now hee is of this sect, hee is of that sect, he sayth this is trueth, [Page 90] another saith that: a man cannot tell which way to turne him. Your learned men also themselues are at warre, one against another, one confuting another, in their sermons, in their writings: alas, must it not then much more follow among the vnlearned people. If the learned cannot vnderstād the Scriptures, how shall they which haue no lear­ning? O how well were our forefathers which knew none of all this. I would the reading of the Scriptures did make men no worse thē they were: they had good soules to Godward, now men are starke nought.

The great subtiltie of the diuell, to draw men away from reading the Scriptures, appeareth in ye: ye would proue it not only a thing vnnecessarie to haue them knowne, but also very euill. This yée proue by the effects which follow, as diuisions and quarrels, and sects: by the same reason ye may proue, that it had béen good neuer to haue heard of Christ, a­bout whom there haue béen so many quarrels in the world. Esay 28. 2. Pet. 1. Many doe stumble at him, he is the rocke of offence vnto many: but the fault is in men and not in him. Euen so the wicked which abuse the Gospell, although they be ne­uer so many, yet must not cause the small num­ber of Gods elect, to be depriued of their right, and to be spoyled of their comfort. So soone as the Gospell appeareth, the diuell laboureth by his instruments to bring an infamie vpon it, and to make men beléeue it is naught: for it [Page 91] is he which raiseth vp sects and errors, Gods word is not the cause. He would by y ^t meanes bring men into a maze, that they should not know which way to turne them. But you say the cause is that holy things are giuē to dogs, and precious pearles are cast before swine. Ye reason euen like your forefathers the proude Pharisies, which took themselues to be so holy, that they were not to bee taught: and so wise & skilfull, that they regarded not others. The multitude were accursed: Iohn 9. the blind mā he was altogether borne in sinne: you wretches count them dogs and swine: and your selues holie: whereas your selues haue plaied the notable vilaines, and haue dealt vnreuerētly with the word of God. Matth. 9. The Pharisies blamed Christ that he did eate with Publicanes & sinners: he answered, y ^t he came not to call the righteous, Luke 5. but sinners to repentance. You say, sinfull mē are permitted to deale with the scriptures: we answere, the more sinful, the greater néed they haue to know y ^e scriptures, because they must reforme them, and cure them: other meanes for the sinners there are none. Psal. 119. Wherewithall (saith the Prophet) shall a young man clense his waies? euen by taking héed thereto accor­ding to thy word. Ye reason euen as handsom­ly, as if a man should count it vnméet for those to come to the water to wash them which are all myred: or if a man should be out of his way in the darke, let him haue no light, because he [Page 92] is out of his way. Matth. 12. O yee wicked Pharisies, yée shut vp the kingdome of God before men, yée neither enter your selues, neither do ye suffer those which would. Let thousand thousands, and millians of thousands, deale vndiscréetlie and wickedly with the word, gather all kinde of diuelish errors out of it, by peruerting it, be puffed vp with their knowledge, & make but a pratling thereof: yet this must not let, but that if God had but ten chosen in the world, his counsels must be opened vnto them. Men abuse the word when they talke vnreuerently of it, therefore you say it is to bee remoued: théeues and quarrellers doe fight, rob, and kill with their weapons, & therefore the true men must cast them away. Doe ye not know that we are commanded for to meditate and talk of the holy scriptures, night and day: but yet re­uerently? Is not the word of God called the sword of the spirit, Ephes. 6. with which wee must fight against the diuell? Doth not Christ our cap­taine giue vs example, Matth. 4. when he still alleageth the scriptures against him? How childish are ye in alleadging this that Christ did speake in parables: and said it was giuen to the disciples to knowe the mysteries of the kingdome of God, but to the rest in parables: that in seeing they might not see? I pray ye were they the vnlearned only of whom he speaketh? Were they not the great clarkes, the Scribes and Pharisies, which did see & not perceiue, & heare [Page 93] and not vnderstand? Yea it is to be vnderstood of all the reprobate, both the learned and vn­learned. As on the other side, the mysteries of the kingdome of GOD are reueiled to simple ones: Matth. 11. I thanke thée O father (saith Christ) Lord of heauen and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise & prudent, and hast opened them vnto babes. Doe ye not sée in the Gospell, how our Sauiour Christ did publish the Gospell, & instruct the multitude? Is it not testified, that publicanes and sinners did im­brace the same, whē the wise ones despised the counsel of God? Doth not Christ tell thē that publicanes & harlots should go before them in­to the kingdom of God? Luke 7. Matth. 21. You say they went all one way when they knew not the scriptures. Doubtles the heathen men went all one way, but it was no good way, for it was to destruc­tion: euen so as many as did not (as S. Paul saith) receiue the loue of the trueth that they might be saued, 2. Thess. [...]. God did send thē strong delusiō to beléeue lies, & so they were damned. These were not all our forefathers, for God alwaies shewed his trueth to his seruants. Ye say the people cannot vnderstand the scriptures, whē as y ^e learned doe not, but are set one against an other, & one doth confute another: ye should conclude of this, that because learned men doe raise vp errors, aswell as the vnlearned, there­fore the scriptures ought to be taken away frō them also, and so ye should make sure worke. [Page 94] Let God speake no more, vnlesse he can do bet­ter: let the Pope onely vtter his minde, and heare him, for he will tell a plaine tale.

This is euen like all your schismatikes, and heretikes, for all of ye doe allow errors, quarrels, and contentions. Ye thinke it a small matter to haue the world filled and set vpon an vprore with them, ye doe euen glorie in them, as though there could be no trueth without them. Oh say you, it is a certaine and infallible proofe, that ours is the true Gospell, that so great troubles, and sundrie sects do follow it. Thus ye are not ashamed to confesse the euil fruits of your doctrine: so that others need not to speake thereof. Many other such like spee­ches ye vtter.

I am no liker those which imbrace the trueth, then ye are like your father, not the fa­ther of trueth, but of lyes: for let a man con­uict ye a thousand times in your sayings, yet ye will not sticke to lie and slaunder. Where can ye euer shew, that any true professor of the Gospell doth allow errors, quarrels, & con­tentions? Because we say that the scriptures must not bee taken from the people, although neuer so many errors and schismes do follow: can ye gather thereof that we allow the same? no, we detest and abhorre from the bottome of our hearts such trecherie of the diuell, and his wicked instruments. We count it a lamen­table thing, to see the malice of the diuell and of the wicked world to bee so great, y ^t so soone [Page 95] as euer Christ and his Gospell appeare, they bend all their might against it, seeking all meanes to quench the light thereof: and vtter­ly to banish it. From hence doe spring all vp­rores and tumults in the Church. We affirme indéede that this is a proofe that it is the Gos­pell of Christ, that the wicked world cannot a­bide it: if it were of y ^e world, the world would loue his owne: but because it is not of the world, therefore the prince of the world with all the power and armies that hee can make, doth rise vp against it: for Satan will not bee dispossessed of his hold without great stur. The strong man armed which kéepeth his house, Matth. 12. must first be bound before his house cā be spoy­led. When there shall be no diuell, no wicked ones, no kingdome set vp against the kingdom of God, whē Christ shall haue none enemies: then the Gospell may come foorth in peace, without troubles, tumults, sects, errors, and such like. But so long as all those do remaine, wherefore should the Gospell lose any glorie? because these things follow it: nay, why shuld it not bee so much the more glorious, that it doth breake through all these things, and by it Christ doth rule in the midst of his enemies? When the Prophet foretolde, that the stone which the builders refused, Psal. 110. was become the head of the corner: he addeth, Psal. 118. this is the Lords doing, and it is marueilous in our eyes. So this is the Lords doing, and it is most maruei­lous [Page 96] in our eyes, that so many cruell persecu­tions doe follow the Gospell, and yet cannot banish it: so many heapes, or rather floods of monstrous errors do euen as it were flow o­uer it, to couer it, to corrupt it, to abolish it: and yet doth still breake forth, as bright and pure as before. So soone as Christ was borne, persecution arose, and the children were cruel­ly murthered. Paul and the rest of the Apostles do not so soone go foorth to preach, Matth. 2. but the false prophets are at their héeles. Cease therfore ye wicked wretches, to blaspheme Christ and his Gospell, because such things follow: they bée not the fruits of the Gospell, nor they doe not spring out of it, but they be the enemies there­of, which do alwaies pursue it. Make a recon­ciliation betwéene Christ and the diuell, if yée will haue the Gospell go quietly. Now let a wise man way this reason, the word of God, which is y ^e word of saluation, of life, of grace, our light, our shield, the foode of our soules, can not be set forth, but there follow troubles, and errors, therfore it is good to kéepe it vnknowne, and not to let the people haue any sight there­of. All the world may see, that ye haue conspi­red with the diuell, & are become instruments to fulfill his desire: for he couereth by those e­uils to banish the trueth, and to holde men in blindnes, and all kinde of errors which they bée by nature full of, and so to bring all to hell: and you performe his will, in crying out a­gainst [Page 97] the sacred Scriptures, and seeking to burie them.

Nay, you haue consulted with the diuell, like vnnaturall children, to seeke the ouerthrow of your mother the holy Church, and to dishonour the vicar of Christ.

We bring all our consultation out of Gods holy word for the vpholding and main­taining of our holy mother, the true Catho­like Church and spouse of Christ, against the filthie whore of Babylon, and against Anti­christ the great vicar of hell.

I may say the like against your side, and so we may play at Tenice vntill we bee both wearie, and part as wise as we began.

I say nothing against yout but that which the word of GOD doth plainly shew. You haue no colour to say the like against vs, sauing that your shameles faces haue made ye bolde to speake all kinde of lyes.

Great brags ye make of prouing out of the Scriptures. Where doe the Scriptures tell ye, that the Bishop of Rome is Antichrist? You can make the Scriptures serue for your turne in any matter whatsoeuer.

Wée brag no more of the Scriptures, then that which is manifestlie prooued by them: we make them serue none other turne, then the Lorde hath appoynted them for. The Scriptures doe not in flat speeches say that the Pope, or the Bishop of Rome is [Page 98] Antichrist: yet neuerthelesse they set a brand vpon his forehead, and describe him in such sort, that euery man which hath eyes may ea­sily know him: and as perfectly know him to be Antichrist, as a man may know an egge to be an egge.

I haue read the Scriptures, and know what they speake concerning Antichrist, and yet could neuer finde that brand which you speake of, nor such a description as should paint out the Pope to be Antichrist. You are marueilous fellowes, you can make somewhat of nothing: you are so cun­ning that ye can draw water out of a flint.

You haue read the Scriptures, and so haue your fellowes, euen all the Popish shaue­lings: and ye know they speake of Antichrist, whom you beléeue shal come: you cannot find that brand or marke, or such a description of Antichrist, as should belong to the Pope: and that causeth ye to pronounce, that wee make somewhat of nothing, &c. because it is not like that so many great Cardinals, Bishops, Ab­bots, Monkes and Friers should reade and reade againe in the Scriptures, and not sée the Pope to be Antichrist, if he be so marked, that he may easily bee knowne. This may seeme strange, but I tell yée it is no marueile, for yée are all blinde as béetles. The Scribes, the Pharisies, the Sadduces, and all the learned among the Iewes did reade Moses & the Pro­phets, and studied them deuoutly: looked for [Page 99] the Messias which was promised and descri­bed there: and yet when he came, they were so farre off from knowing him, that they did kill him, and fulfilled the voyces of the Prophets: euen so fareth it with you, ye reade what ma­ner of one Antichrist should be, and what he should doe, and yet ye are so blinde, that ye ful­fill it, in helping him to murther the Saints. The Iewes could not know Christ, because they looked for a trim Christ, and he came base and poore. You haue also deuised a popish fable of Antichrist, which doth so sticke in your heads, that ye cannot sée the notes and marks of the very Antichrist indéede.

Goe to, goe to, let vs see your great skill, and what your scriptures will be whereby ye will shew this thing. I feare me we shall haue but slen­der conclusions.

When ye haue tried them, then giue iudgement, and so although yee should iudge falsly, yet yee shall not bee altogether so rash. Will ye confesse that S. Paul 2. Thess. 2. and S. Iohn in the Reuelation doe describe and set forth Antichrist?

That I will: for I suppose no man will de­nie it: but what are ye the better? that which S. Paul doth speake, and that which Saint Iohn hath written, as concerning Antichrist, may more fitly be applied to you, then to vs.

If it may as fitly be applied to vs as to you: nay I will say further, if it may be applied [Page 100] to any but to you, let vs be counted heretikes.

Saint Paul sayth, that the day of the Lord should not come, except there came first an apo­stasie, or falling away. Doth not this touch you? Let al men iudge who are fallen away, we, or you? Are we fallen from you, or you from vs? Haue we made the departing, or haue you? Our Church hath alwaies stood fast and vnmoueable, you haue rent your selues from vs: by what reason can any man say, that they haue made the apostasie which haue alwaies, and do still keepe their standing: and not rather those which are gone out from vs: to fulfill that which S. Iohn saith, 1. Iohn 2. They went out from vs, because they were not of vs.

You would shift this thing from your selues, and lay it vpon vs: but it cleaueth so fast to your hands that it will not off. Ye goe about by a subtill cauillation to bléere the eyes of simple men. Wee confesse wee haue made the departure from you, and not you from vs, because you had departed from the trueth, and true Church, and had led vs out of the way of trueth, vnto which wée are now agayne by Gods gracious goodnesse returned. You say your Church hath alwaies stoode stedfast and vnmoueable, and therefore hath not made the departing. It is true, if wee respect place, and succession of Bishops: but what doth that help ye, when ye are departed from the faith, which thing ye might and haue done without chan­ging your place and roomes? The high priests, [Page 101] Scribes and Pharisies among the Iewes had their succession and place longer then you, and yet Christ and his Apostles did depart from them, and were neither heretikes nor schisma­tikes. And why, because they had first depar­ted from the truth? Ye must not stand vpō one clause, but take that which doth follow with it. This falling away shal be by the man of sinne, the sonne of perdition, who was to bee reuea­led: which is an aduersary, and exalteth himself aboue al that is called God, or that hath impe­riall maiestie, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, boasting or shewing himselfe to be God. This is one sentence which doth set the brand in the forehead of your Pope: the scarre whereof will euidently appeare, when ye haue made as fine worke as ye can.

Now ye are come vnto the matter, I trow ye will make it plaine, and out of all doubt. This is spoken indeede of Antichrist: but where will ye finde one iot of it in the Bishop of Rome? Where will ye finde that euer he hath exalted himselfe a­boue all that is called God, or that is worshipped? which word you translate at your pleasure other­wise thē euer I heard it before, y ^t which hath impe­rial maiestie. Ye must proue that the Pope hath ex­alted himself aboue God, or els ye haue slandered & blasphemed him. Such an one shal Antichrist be

This is all fulfilled by the Pope, as I will shew, I am not to proue that he hath exalted himselfe aboue God: but that hée hath [Page 102] exalted himselfe aboue all that is called God. Psalm. 82. The kings of the earth are that which is called God: for the Scripture saith, they are called Gods. Iohn 10. And because sebasma, which is transla­ted, that which is worshipped: is in the New Testament giuen to the Emperors of Rome, I translate it, that which hath imperiall ma­iestie or dignitie. Ye may see, that not onely a­mong the prophane writers, the epithite seba­stos is giuen to the Emperours, but also in the 27. of the Acts of the Apostles S. Luke saith, that S. Paul was deliuered to a captaine, spires sebastes, of the band of Augustus. Also likewise Act. 25. Festus saith that Paul had appealed to Sebaston, that is, to Augustus. Now the words of S. Paul setting forth the man of sinne, are cléerely fulfilled in the Pope, who hath bin, as all men know, exalted so high aboue kings and Emperours, that they held his stirrops, when he went to horsebacke. There hath béen none Lord ouer kings and Emperours, but the Ro­mane Bishop. None exalted to that dignitie, but the Italian Priest.

The Apostle saith, all that is called God, and therefore it is to bee vnderstood of God him­selfe: for is not he called God? There is cause why the Pope should be aboue all the kings and Em­perours, that doth not proue him to be the man of sinne. He hath that of right, because he is Christs Vicar.

The Apostle doth vse this spéech to [Page 103] put difference betwéen in déed, and that which is called God, and hath but that high title, and is not God in déede: God is more then called God, for he is very God indéed. This thing is also manifest when the Apostle in the next words rising by degrées, saith, that hee sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himselfe that he is God. In this last and highest he doth but set him forth, to chalenge to himselfe to bée equall with GOD. Where ye say it doth belong of right to the Pope to bee aboue all kings; be­cause he is the Vicar of Christ, I will answer that anon in another matter.

I must let ye haue your saying, there is no remedie: but doth the Bishop of Rome then sit in the temple of God, boasting himselfe that hee is God? I marueile what glose ye can make to per­swade the people that the Pope doth this. Who e­uer can shew that the Bishop of Rome doth not take himselfe to be a man? If he take himselfe to be a man, doth he then boast himselfe to be God? For shame leaue your slandering, and finde some other to ascribe this name Antichrist vnto, for to the holy father it doth not belong.

Ye must néeds let me haue my saying, when it is so manifest truth that ye cannot tel which way to cauill against it. The Bishop of Rome doth sit in the temple of God, shewing himselfe that he is God. Ye néede not maruell, nor there néedeth no glosing to perswade the people in this poynt. It is rather greatly to be [Page 104] wondred how men should bee so blinde as not to know this great monster, séeing the holie Ghost doth so liuely paint him forth in his co­lours. The man of sin must not be a forenner: for the Apostle sheweth, that he shuld haue his seate in the temple of God. This cannot bee vnderstood of the materiall temple in Ierusa­lem, for that was vtterly destroyed shortly af­ter Christ. But it is meant of the true temple of God, which is his Church. In this temple sitteth not the Turke, nor yet the Iew, or any Pagan, doth here raigne: but the Pope hath long time had his royall throne set vp in this temple. No man can say y ^e Turke, or any of the forenamed is Antichrist: for wee must not goe out of Christendome to séeke him, but find him we must set vp in y ^e very temple of God. Al the Papists in y ^e world shall neuer be able to shew any other in the church, besides the Pope vnto whom they may apply this descriptiō. Where hath there euer béen any in the temple of God, (which of necessitie is here takē for the church) exalted aboue all that is called God, beside the Bishop of Rome. I pray God open the eyes of the ignorant people whom ye seduce, that they may see Antichrist and forsake him.

O how you would triumph, if yee had any great matter of your side: when ye brag so much of nothing. VVhat if I should tell ye that the Anti­christ which S. Paul doth describe, is not yet risen? What can ye say? must the Pope needes be he, be­cause [Page 105] he hath the highest seate in the Church? Whē ye haue proued that he boasteth himselfe to bee God then ye shall say somewhat.

Where the word of God goeth direct­ly against ye, there ye make no account of it at all, such bolde beasts yee are to call it nothing. But what if ye should tell vs that Antichrist is not yet come, alas poore foolish papist? What if a Iew should tell vs that Christ is not yet come, shall we beléeue him? Wee know he is already come, & hath fulfilled all things which were written of him in the Prophets. Shall we be so foolish, with y ^e Iewes, as to wait for another? Likewise, what if a Papist tel vs that great Antichrist, which y ^e scripture doth speak of, is not yet come? shall we bee so mad, when we see that the Romish Bishop and his clergy, haue fulfilled all those things which S. Paul and S. Iohn in the Reuelation haue written of him, as to gape after another? The Pope must néedes bee bee, not simply because he hath the highest seat in the Church, but because he hath so high a seat in the Church, as God neuer ap­pointed to any. Antichrist should be y ^e highest of all, where will ye finde any that was aboue the Pope, or that euer did chalenge such autho­ritie as he had for certaine hundreth yeares? But ye say when I haue proued that the Pope doth boast himselfe to be God, then I shall say somewhat. It is indéede such a somewhat, as may of it selfe suffice if there were no more, [Page 106] to cause all wise men to see that he is the man of sinne, and vtterly to renounce him.

When ye haue done that, I also will recant and forsake him: because I am sure the spirit of the diuell is in that man, which maketh himselfe God: and so I dare promise for all that be of our side.

Ye make a double promise, one for your selfe, and another for your fellowes, that if the Pope can be proued to haue boasted or shewed himselfe to be God, ye will recant and forsake him. But I am sure yee promise much more then ye can performe: I cannot trust y ^t which ye make for your self, much lesse, when ye pro­mise for all that be on your side. Ye are blinded and hardened, as the Scribes and Pharisies were: they said, if he bee Christ let him come downe from the crosse and wee will beléeue in him. Matth. 27. Could they, or would they haue beléeued in him if he had come downe from the crosse? Why then did they not beléeue when he was risen from the dead, which was a thing farre greater then to come downe from the crosse? When I sée ye recant I will beléeue it, other­wise I will not, because there is a great num­ber of ye which doe wrangle, and cauill, & séeke shifts against those things, which your consci­ences do tell ye are true: so that ye do willing­ly and wilfully blinde your selues, and so blind others. And thus while ye go about to deceiue others, ye are deceiued. But let vs come to the matter. It may be ye looke that I should go a­bout [Page 107] to proue that the Pope hath taken vpon him to be called God, or to bee taken for God, and not man: I doe not meane so.

No, ye cānot tell what ye meane: I thought this would be the end, now ye will not goe about to proue that the Pope would bee called God, or be taken not to be a man. This is the sleight of ye all, to make great crakes, and when ye are to come to your proofe, then to winde out. I may keepe my promise well enough: you haue released me of it: I would like it well if ye would confesse plainlie, and shame the diuell, that ye haue made promise of more then ye are able to doe: and that ye haue done great iniurie vnto the holy father, and haue slandered him.

I haue done euen as much iniurie to the holy father, and haue slaundered him euen as much, as a man doth slaunder and iniurie the diuell, when he saith, he is the father of lyes. I should not shame the diuell in retracting that which I haue said, and by saying that I haue promised more then I am able to doe: but I should please him very well. For although his owne credit is so far spent, that he should vt­terly lose his labour in séeking to recouer it: yet he séeketh to vphold the credit and estima­tion of his vicar, & by that meanes doth main­taine his kingdome. I haue vsed no sleight, nor am gone from ought y ^t I did promise to proue. For doth it follow that because the Pope doth confesse he is a man, and taketh not the name [Page 108] of God, therfore he doth not boast himself to be God. You are a very simple Logitian, which from deniall of some part, wil deny the whole.

What is the whole if this be not, neither to take the name, nor yet to esteeme himselfe to bee the thing. Neither to bee called God, nor yet to thinke himselfe to be God. If ye can shew any o­ther way whereby hee may shew himselfe to bee God, let me heare it.

He doth sit in the temple of God, boa­sting himselfe that he is God: when he challen­geth to himselfe the power & authoritie which doth belong onely to God, and to no creature, this power he hath vsurped many waies. Tell me, is not this to boast himselfe to be God?

I grant indeed that whosoeuer doth chal­lenge the power and authoritie to himselfe which doth belong to God onely, doth make himselfe God. But what are ye the neerer for this, so long as ye shall neuer bee able to shew any way, whereby the Pope hath vsurped any such power, although ye say hee hath done it many waies: hee hath his power giuen him of God, and yet neuer the power to be as God.

I might with trauell make a large dis­course with many proues, to shew that he hath vsurped the highest authoritie: but I will con­tēt my self to shew it in some things, which are knowne very well euen vnto the simple. Is not God onely Lord ouer our faith? and ruler ouer our consciences to binde the same? Hath [Page 109] not God onely power to forgiue sinnes? To shut heauen, and to open hell, to saue and to destroy? Is not God the onely lawgiuer? is not Christ our onely Doctor? how then can the Bishop of Rome challenge these things to himselfe, and yet not shew himselfe that he is GOD? If this be not much more to make himselfe GOD, when hée taketh vpon him Gods power then to take the name, let al men iudge.

The Pope doth take no Lordship ouer the conscience, nor doth not binde them further then he hath authoritie giuen him. The lawes which he maketh are made by the holy Ghost which is in him, and therefore there is but one lawgiuer. For ye may euen as well say, Moses gaue lawes, there­fore there is more then one lawgiuer: for looke how he gaue lawes so doth the Pope. Hereby eue­ry man may see that ye reason very strongly, when by making lawes yee would proue an equalitie with God, then all the Apostles and Prophets were equall with God. And so I may say for the rest.

God neuer gaue any such authoritie to any man: If the Pope had it giuen him, it was by the Dragon, as S. Iohn sayth, Reuel. 13. which gaue him his seate, and great authoritie. Ye say I reason strongly, when I say, the Pope doth make lawes, to binde mens consciences, ther­fore the Pope maketh himselfe God: and like­wise maketh that there is more then one law­giuer. For say you, by this reason Moses, [Page 110] all the Apostles and Prophets should be equall with God: because they gaue lawes. But as they did it by the holy Ghost, so doth the Pope: and so God is still the onely law-giuer. Thus ye would bleare the eyes of the ignorant, to make them beléeue that the Pope doth make lawes as Moses did. But I will shew a diffe­rence: Moses gaue no lawes nor any of the A­postles, but such as they receiued from GOD. They neuer challenged authoritie for to make any law contrary to any part of the word of God: nor to abrogate any of the lawes of God. For S. Paul saith, Galath. 1. y ^t if he or an Angell frō hea­uen should preach any other Gospell then that he had preached, let him be accursed. Such was the authoritie of Gods worde, that if either Paul, or Moses, or any other which brought it, should alter, adde to it, or diminish the same, he should be accursed. And yet the Pope doth take power to make lawes contrary to the lawes of the word of God: to dispense with the same, to disanull what hee will: and which is most blasphemous of all, to affirme that the holie Scriptures haue no authoritie without him: but are of themselues dead & can haue no cer­taintie. Is not this to make himselfe God, or equall with God? What is there which hath authoritie ouer Gods word, but God? Who doth not here espie the very hornes of the di­uell péep vp, and speake these things out of the mouth of his vicar Antichrist? They do al for­sake [Page 111] God and worship the beast, which giue him this authoritie.

I will not denie but that he which doth set vp lawes contrary to Gods lawes, maketh himselfe God, euen as a subiect which taketh vpon him to make lawes, and to refuse the lawes of the Prince, maketh himselfe as it were a king. But I say the Bi­shop of Rome doth not so, for he hath the holie Ghost and cannot erre. And so when he doth for­giue sinnes, he doth no more then is warranted by the word: and in very deede which ye take vpon ye to doe.

What should I stand to answere bare words: wee know the Pope is not led by the holy Ghost, but by the lying spirit of the diuel, because he hath so flatly troden downe Gods word, and brought in his owne lawes in stead of it. I will not stand to recite particulars, all the world may iudge. And whereas ye say, he doth not forgiue sins, but as we doe take vpon vs: that is but a shift which ye haue deuised: for all that will may see, whether this bee all one: to pronounce remission of sins to the pe­nitent, which we do: and to send forth pardōs, whereby for ten shilling matter, a man might not onely haue forgiuenes of his sins past, but libertie for a good time after to commit many sinnes. If this be not the man of sinne, where shall we finde him? Who doth take vpon him to bee God, if he do not, which for money will forgiue a man whatsoeuer he doth commit a­gainst [Page 112] God? Shall a rotten stinking carrion thus blaspheme, and men not espie that hee is the great Antichrist? I haue now shewed yée how the Pope boasteth himself to be God: but I dare not say you will recant.

When I see matter which may force me to recant I will do it, but for ought that I see brought to the purpose, to proue that which you promised, there is cause rather why you should recant, and renounce your errors, and returne againe to the holy mother, which is ready to receiue those that returne to her, how vnkindly soeuer they haue be­haued themselues toward her.

The diuelish strumpet is almost left desolate, and therefore she laboureth to draw as many as she can, and to entice them to her loue: faire and foule, tag and mag, all are wel­come, none come amisse now: Murtherers, whoremasters, whores, bawdes, drunkards, and all such like: if they will take her for their mother, she is not ashamed to take them for her children, and to make them partakers of her holinesse. But let vs come againe to the matter. Saint Paul in the same chapter sayth, That Antichrist should come with lying signes and wonders: and so is it also expres­sed in the Reuelation, that the beast should that way seduce and deceiue the inhabitants of the earth. If this be not fulfilled in the kingdome of the Pope, how shall it euer bee fulfilled, or where shall wee looke for it? What hath béen [Page 113] all your outcries, but myracles, myracles? Let a man reade your Legenda Aurea, and festiuall, and such other pure bookes, what shall he finde but myracle vpon myracle: and so true, that if a man would lye for the whetstone, hee may there store himselfe, if hee will haue a whole bundle. The people did beléeue them, for why, the Scripture saith, 2. Thess. 2. GOD should send them strong delusion to beléeue lyes. I dare say boldly, that although you Papists, a great nū ­ber of ye, haue put on impudent and shamelesse faces, to maintaine lyes: yet there is not one of ye, but wil blush, if he should take vpon him to defend that stinking puddle of lyes, and fai­ned wonders, which ye fed the common people withal. A man may be ashamed to recite them, least those which know not the matter, should thinke he doth lie.

What way can you proue that the myra­cles of the Church were false, and counterfeit? Will you take vpon ye to condemne such things as were done long since? If there bee some things written which might wel enough be left out: is the Church to be charged with that which euery par­ticular man doth? There were abuses crept in, which the Bishop himselfe did not know of. Is it reason he should be blamed?

I thinke no wise man will doubt but that this is a sufficient proofe, that your my­racles were but iugling casts in the darke, be­cause ye had such store then, & haue none now: [Page 114] alas there is as great néede now as euer there was. And if there bee but one myracle left in your budget, pull it forth and let vs see it, that we may giue some credit vnto ye. Nay your mother had no good counsell giuen her, when she had such plentie to spend it so wastfully as she did, and to kéepe none for a deare yeare. I wisse a few of those great wonders which shée shewed in time past, would now stand her in great stead.

Mocke on, take your pleasure, there is none to controule ye. VVhat though there be neede at this time, yet the world is vnworthie: euen as Christ said to the Pharisies when they required a signe, Matth. 19. This euill and adulterous generation seeketh a signe, but there shall no signe be giuen them but the signe of Ionas the Prophet. Euen so what rea­son is it, that the holy mother should shew any wonders and myracles vnto you, which are worse then the Pharisies?

Alacke good old mother, she hath néede as much as euer she had to shew her cunning: but the world is not worthie. Although shée might winne great credit by it, yet she had ra­ther kéepe a good conscience. And therefore she doth follow y ^e example of Christ, which would not doe any myracle at the request of the Pha­risies. Yea but why doth she not shew some of her power to her own chickens, for feare least they should be drawn frō her. Christ wrought myracles still to his disciples, although y ^e Pha­risies [Page 115] were vnworthie. No there is some other let, the window doth stand too wide opē, there commeth too much light. Your mother would play one feate, but that she feareth she should not make her conueiance so cleanly, but that one or other would espie her. She doth vse worse meanes a great deale.

What can you tell what myracles the Church doth, you haue not faith to beleeue them? She worketh more then you are made priuie of.

I doe certainly perswade my selfe that I know not all that she doth: she hath learned to be more close then to let euery man sée what she doth. And yet sometime wee sée more then we can well like of. Your little pretie moul­den God in the boxe doth giue her counsel how to deale against her enemies.

I see well when men are fallen away, they care not what blasphemies they vtter. This is farre from the thing which ye offered to proue.

If a man may vtter blasphemy against a péece of dow, then I haue blasphemed. But I doe assure ye I will neuer craue pardon for it. I am still in the matter which I tooke in hand, which was to shew that the Pope is An­tichrist. I could make plaine proues vnto ye out of other places of Scripture, & especially out of the Reuelation, where the holie Ghost doth of purpose set forth the kingdome of An­tichrist.

VVill ye take vpon ye to expound the Re­uelation, [Page 116] and the things are set forth in it so darkly by mysteries, that no man can say precisely, this or that is the sense? but when you haue interpre­ted things one way, another may make as good and as probable a sense another way. What one thing is there which maketh so plainly against vs, as ye would beare men in hand? Doth it not make as plainly against you?

Although the Lord hath spoken dark­ly in the Reuelation, yet not so darkly but that it may be vnderstood, otherwise to what pur­pose was it giuen? Wherefore are those pro­nounced blessed which reade & heare it, Reuel. 1. if none can expound it? it would haue béen a great deale more hard to vnderstand, if the mysteries had béen but barely vttered: but because there is also an exposition of the chief things, which doe as it were couple all the rest together: it is no hard matter to finde the sense, especially, when as the exposition is in so flat and plaine tearmes, that euen the very obstinate Papists of your side are driuen to confesse them: and not only in word, but also in writing.

What can ye shew that is confessed by our men, which ye say they are forced to confesse both in word and writing?

Reuel. 11.Saint Iohn saith, in the 11. chapter, that the beast which riseth out of the bottomlesse pit, should make war against y ^e two witnesses which the Lord would send, & ouercome them, and slay them. And their bodies should lye in [Page 117] the stréetes of the great citie, which spiritual­ly is called Sodome and Egypt, where our Lord was crucified. Ierusalē was destroyed, and Christ although he was (if we respect the place) crucified there, but yet if wee respect the authoritie he was crucified at Rome, because he was put to death by Pylate, who had there the authoritie vnder the Romane Emperour.

Moreouer, in the 17. chapter, he saith plain­ly, This woman which thou sawest, is the great citie which raigneth ouer the kings of the earth. Other things he setteth downe, as the seuen hils and seuen kings, all which do of necessitie describe Rome, for there was, nor is none other citie vnto which they may in any colour bee ascribed. Therefore as I sayd, it is confessed (because it is so plaine that it cannot be denied) euen by your men, that Saint Iohn indéede in the Reuelation doth call Rome Ba­bylon. What fooles are those which cannot by and by see that if Rome bee Babylon, and then Sodome and Egypt, that the Pope must néedes be Antichrist.

VVhat foole is it which cannot see the weakenesse of your argument. I pray ye doth it in good sadnesse follow, that because the Scrip­ture (as wee confesse) doth call Rome Baby­lon: therefore the Bishop of Rome is Antichrist. VVhat if one should reason thus, London is a wicked citie, therefore the Bishop of London is a wicked man. Were not this a prety argument? And [Page 118] why is not the other as good? Rome of old time euen when S. Iohn did write, was so full of wic­kednesse that he called it Babylon: and therefore the Bishop of Rome then was Antichrist. For ye must as well bring in then, as now. Are yee so poore a Logitian to frame an argument after that sort? Can ye not distinguish betweene a citie, and the Bishop of a citie? Either you were but a while at Cambridge, or else ye spent your time euill.

O great wise man, what a quicke and sharpe sight haue you. And how sound a Logi­tian you shew your selfe, if to be blinde, bee to be a Logitian. Doe ye take it in good sadnesse, that I would frame my reason thus, Rome is Babylon, therefore the Pope is Antichrist, without consideration of circumstances ther­to annexed. No sir, although it follow not at all, if we barely consider the citie and the Bi­shop: yet if ye put on your spectacles, & looke well vpon other circumstances, ye shall bée forced to confesse that if Rome bee Babylon, the Pope is Antichrist.

If ye can proue such a consequence by circumstances, I suppose ye would be able for a neede to proue Pauls steeple and Charing crosse to be cousin germanes. Ye haue as many circum­stances belonging hereto, as to the other. They be both made of stone, and dwell both in one ci­tie, and peraduenture much about one age. But perhaps yours are neerer matters.

As for Paules stéeple and Charing [Page 119] crosse, I haue knowen them but a while. I can not testifie of any kindred betwéen thē, I leaue that to you. Sure I am of this, that ye shal as soone prooue the one of them to be the Father, & the other the Sonne: as ye shall be able to dis­proue this reason, Rome is Babylon, therfore the Pope is Antichrist. I pray ye tell me this: wherfore doth S. Iohn, describing the kingdom of Antichrist, describe or note out also the Citie of Rome? Is it not to let vs to vnderstād, that if we wil séeke for Antichrist, we shal find him there? Rome is his seat, he that would find him let him goe thither, for there S. Iohn placeth him. When a man is come thither, where shal a man looke, for this little fellow which is ex­alted aboue al, that is called God, which sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himselfe that he is God: is there any other there which beareth this likenes? Peraduēture ye wil say this was fulfilled in some of the Emperors which would be taken for God. Yea sir, but there was none of y ^e wicked Emperors which did sit in the tē ­ple of God. Neither was there any of them which did seduce the world by lying wonders. Wée must find such an one at Rome which is exalted aboue Kings & Emperors, which sit­teth in the Temple of God & seduceth by myra­cles. But perhaps he shall arise at Rome here­after, and is not yet come. Surely then let vs neuer looke for him: if we think there shal arise one at Rome, which shall bee lifted vp higher [Page 120] then the Pope, or doe more fained myracles, and lying wonders then he hath.

Moreouer, tell me this: is there any man so simple when he readeth the 17. chapter of the Reuelation, Reuel. 17. where the Angel doth shew y ^e mi­stery of the woman (which he calleth the great whore) and of the beast which beareth her: that wil not by & by confesse, y ^t séeing Rome is that whore, borne vp with y ^e scarlet coloured beast with seuen heads: the Pope also must néeds be Antichrist: for he is one of y ^e heads of the beast. The heads of the beast being seuen, are (saith the Angel) seuen Kings, where should they reign? At Rome. Fiue (saith he) are fallen, one is, another is to come. Seuen kinds of gouern­mēts in Rome: whereof it is wel knowen, fiue were fallē before the time in which Iohn wrote. One was thē standing, which was y ^e Empire. And the seuenth or last should shortly follow. Where is he that hath risen at Rome to be the seuenth & last of these kings, if it be not y ^e Pope? O ye foolish Papists, haue ye come thus far as to cōfesse that Rome is Babylon, which is the great whore, & so tel men where they must séek for Antichrist: And wil ye denie the Pope to be y ^e beast? Why, they be ioined together. Shew vs some other, vpon whō we may sée the brand which the scripture hath set vpon Antichrist? We now, by that which you haue granted and confessed, must not looke for him elswhere, but at Rome: & vntill ye can shew vs some other [Page 121] there, we sée none so like him, as the Popes ho­lines. If ye can shew any other, put men out of doubt.

Doth the Scripture say that Antichrist should bee at that place which is called Babylon. Where find ye any such thing? It was called Baby­lon for the great wickednes of the citie, not because Antichrist should reigne there. Againe, where yee take the interpretation of seuen heads to be seuen kings in Rome, as you say, seuen kinds of gouern­ment: fiue were fallen, one was, which is the Em­pyre, one was to come: which say you must needs be the Pope, for hee hath reigned in the last place. Yea, but ye sayd fiue were fallen, to giue place to the sixt: should not then the sixt also fall to giue place to the seuenth? How then is your interpreta­tion true, seeing the Empire hath stood euer since?

Doth not S. Iohn in the Reuel. set forth the same Antichrist which S. Paul doth describe, which he calleth the beast which all the world should wonder after and worship?

Doth he not set forth the whore sitting vp­on the beast? Is not the whore by you confes­sed to be Rome? will ye haue the beast to beare her, and not to be at the same place? the beast that riseth out of the bottomles pit, and killeth the saints. Reuel. 11.

Where shal their bodies lie, in y ^e stréets? doth he not say in the stréets of the great citie, which there he calleth Sodome and Egypt: & after­ward in the seuentéenth chapt. he calleth it the [Page 122] great citie which ruleth ouer the kings of the earth, is it not all one beast which he speaketh of, & al one citie? doth it not follow that where he shall kill, there be shal raigne? and as for the other thing which ye take exception against: I confesse the Empire did still retaine the name, and was not quite cast down: neuertheles it was not indéede an empire, when the Empe­rors themselues were brought downe so farre in subiection to the Pope, as to haue him tread in their necke, and to hold his stirrops.

If the Pope were Antichrist, as you would make men beleeue, then what became of y ^e Church all that while, when men beleeued in him, & when he raigned? you confesse a thousand yeres or there about, since the Bishop of Rome had the soue­raignty. Would God forsake his Church a thou­sand yeres, or eight hundreth yeeres? is it like that God which is so gracious and merciful, would cast off all our forefathers thus many hundreth yeeres, and suffer to perish? O how hard harted are you, how vnreuerently minded against our ancestors, how vnkind children, so to iudge of the fathers? let them beleeue ye that will: ye be al heretikes, I will keepe me to the ancient faith.

Now ye returne to your old fortresse a­gaine: yee suppose that ye haue some of those poore soules in hand which yee may seduce, be­cause they are ignorant. Ye can lay forth this matter so pitifully among them, y ^t ye can make them euen wéepe again. But when ye come a­mong [Page 123] such as haue vnderstanding out of Gods word, and know the state of the Church, they laugh at your follie. This is a great question, what became of y ^t Church? we answere as the scripture telleth vs: Reue. 17. the beast & the dragon did persecute & murther the seruants of God. The whore of Babylon was drunken with y ^e blood of the saints. Reuel. 12. The Church was driuen into the wildernes: God did neuer forsake his Church one day, much lesse a thousand, or 8. hundreth yéeres: it doth not follow y ^t because Antichrist was exalted in the church, therefore the church was vtterly forsaken and destroied. Although corruptions came into the church apace for the space of this 8. hundreth, or a thousand yeres: yet neuertheles the religion did remaine a more tolerable estate, & nothing so corrupted, as within these 5. or 6. hundreth yeres, which space we may indéed ascribe to the reign of An­tichrist: and yet euen in this space he could ne­uer vtterly destroy the Church, for the most gracious God did preserue that litle remnant which was his: and none did perish but those which loued not the trueth, and therfore God did send them strong delusion to beleeue lies.

None but those which worshipped the beast, and wondered after the beast, and receiued the marke of the beast: whose names were not written in the booke of life. We reuerence our godly fathers, & shew no vnkindnesse towards them.

I will deale with ye then vpon your owne confession: ye grant that for the space of fiue or sixe hundred yeeres the Pope hath reigned, and the trueth suppressed. Where was the Church for this space, this is a long time: will ye condemne all the world for the space of these fiue hundred yeres? It ye can shew any fathers in the Church which were godly and denyed the Pope, shew them, Or will ye speake of a church which ye can shewe no mem­bers of? such folly there is in a number of yee.

Answere you to a question of mine, and I wil giue you an answere by and by to yours: when saint Iohn sayth Reuelation 13. All the world followed the beast: & power was giuen him to make warre with the Saints, and to o­uercome them. And againe, when all both smal and great, rich & poore, bonde & frée, were com­pelled to receiue a marke, and none might buy & sel but those which had the marke or name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Tell me, where was the true Church then, whē this was fulfilled? whether were al those condemned or not, (if they returned not by re­pentance) which worshipped the beast, or had his marke? Saint Iohn sayth, they were kil­led with the sword, not a temporall sworde. Where then shall we in these times séeke out the godly fathers, but such as were persecuted by the beast? Of these there be histories, which shew in all times that there were some.

I may soone answere your question, by [Page 125] shewing your great ignorance. He sayth, all the world worshipped the beast, and you will needes haue it to be the Church: is there no difference be­tweene these two. You must proue such a generall falling away of the whole church and not of the world. God hath promised to be with his Church to the end of the world, and therefore that can not fall away. Did the beast which S. Iohn speaketh of cause all the Church to worship him? If you can shew that, then ye proue somewhat.

Here is a blind shift brought in to an­swere the question which I demand. He sayth (say you) al the world, & you will haue it al the Church. I do not say y ^t any part of the Church did fall away, if we vnderstand by the Church those which are the elect of God, and the true members of Christs body: for these can neuer be seduced to follow the beast, Christ hath pro­mised to be with these to the end of the world. But when by the Church wee vnderstand all those companies which do professe Christ out­wardly, those may be seduced and fall from the truth, being but the outward & visible Church: and these are here by S. Iohn called the world: which thing is manifestly to be proued thus: those nations & people where the beast should reigne, or which follow the beast, are called the world: now it is manifest that the beast, being the same Antichrist which S. Paul setteth forth, should reigne in the Church: for he must sit in the Temple of God. It is therefore also [Page 126] as manifest that the visible Church is called in that place the world. The other nations of the world did not follow the beast. But if any will be so wilfull & peruerse as not to sée plainely by this, y ^t the beast shuld beare sway ouer the nati­ons which were the visible church: let thē fur­ther cōsider that S. Iohn doth plainly affirme, that y ^e beast should make war with the saints, & ouercome them. If hee shall make war with the saints, and ouercome them: where shall he then raigne, but in the visible Church? the true saints of God shal not raign in y ^e visible church outwardly, for he shall outwardly ouercome them. O wicked enemies and vpholders of the beast, which because he hath for a time gotten the vpper hand in the Church ouer the saints, would haue him continue so still for euer.

If a man should grant all that which you say, that there should be a falling away in y ^e church yet this is not likely that God would suffer y ^e grea-, test part, and almost all to perish. For what a fewe haue those been which haue resisted the Pope, in respect of those that haue ioyned with him.

This is a very foolish obiection, especi­ally to those which consider the state of Gods Church at all times in the world, what a fewe were the séed of Abraham in respect of al other nations of the world, whom God cast off ma­ny hundred yeeres? what a few were they a­mong the séede of Abraham, which continued good in respect of those which did degenerate? [Page 127] What a few were there in the Church when Christ came, which were faithful? it appeareth they were very fewe.

There be sundry things spoken by S. Paul concerning that Antichrist which should come, and likewise by S. Iohn, which cannot agree to the pope: as for exāple, the one doth say that the Lord shall destroy him with the breath of his mouth. Where hath that been fulfilled in the pope? the o­ther sayth, that Antichrist should continue but a short time, he also setteth forth the time to be three daies and a halfe. How absurdly then is this apply­ed to the Bishop of Rome, which hath continued euer since the Apostles by succession? Who is able to denie this? I am afraid Antichrist, if he be not yet come among you, will come shortly, for you are euen his forerunners.

Sundry things there are (say you) spo­ken by S. Paul and by S. Iohn, concerning An­tichrist which cannot agrée to the Pope. And for example ye name two, the one, that it is said the Lord shal destroy him with y ^e breath of his mouth: the other, that he should continue but a little while, as namely thrée daies and an half. These things agrée right wel to the Pope: al­though this latter might séem to be otherwise: for a thousand yeres, if we respect it according to men is a long time, but with the Lord it is but as yesterday. Fiue or six hundred yeres by it selfe is somwhat, but cōpared with eternity, it is but a little: & so although we grant y ^t it is [Page 126] [...] [Page 127] [...] [Page 128] almost a thousand yéeres since the Bishop of Rome was exalted so high, yet it is but a while. But say you the time is limitted thrée dayes & an half: is it possible that any man should reade the things vttered cōcerning Antichrist, what he should doe, and the same also set out by soun­ding of seuen Trumpets, Reuela. 16. in seuerall ages, in which it is apparant he should continue, that can bee so ignorant as to take it of common daies & not euery day to containe many yeres? are the wéekes in Daniel to be taken for seuen naturall dayes to the wéeke? Daniel 9. when it is cer­taine that the seuen wéekes, did containe al­most fiue hundred yeres. Ye are ouer foolish to make this cauil. Where as ye say the Bishop of Rome hath continued euer since the time of the Apostles, & therefore it could not be vnder­stood of him: it is very true that there hath bin a succession of Bishops there euer since, but yet not of such Bishops, for sixe hundreth yeres after Christ were past, before y ^e Bishop of Rome was takē to be vniuersal Bishop and head of the Church: all the Bishops for y ^t space or at least the most of them were godly men, & some of them suffred martyrdome. As for the other matter which is the fall of Antichrist by the breath of the Lords mouth, it is a maruei­lous cléere testimony which wee may vse to proue the pope to be Antichrist. What I pray ye is the breath of the Lords mouth but the gos­pel preached? by what other meanes hath this [Page 129] beast bin ouerthrowen? when he had gotten al the kings in subiection, and sworne vnto him, when not one durst mooue warre against him, but sayd who is able to warre with the beast: how hath the Lord brought him downe but by the Gospel? And looke in the Reu. 14. Reuel. 14. There he saith, he saw an Angel flying in the midst of heauē, hauing an euerlasting Gospel to preach to them that dwel vpon the earth, to euery na­tion, tribe, tongue, and people, saying with a loude voice: Feare God, & giue glory to him &c. And by & by it followeth, that another Angell followed, saying, She is fallē, she is fallen, Ba­bylon the great citie &c. Is it not manifest by this, that whē the preachers should publish the Gospel (for that Angel doth signifie the mini­sters of the Gospel, whom he doth call Angels in the 1. chap.) Babylon should be cast downe: his kingdom stood by worshipping of creatures, therfore whē the Gospel doth wil men to feare God, and to giue glory to him, and not to wor­ship creatures, straightway he cōmeth down. I would wish all men to consider this.

Do you make account that the pope is fallē: or can ye say that he is fallen, because a number are fallen from him? They are fallen and not he. I hope in God to see him set vp againe. If ye haue no bet­ter matter then this, to shew his fal, it is no matter.

I cannot tell what yee count to bee fallen: sure I am of this, his credite is maruei­lously cracked. He y ^t had knowen him 60. yeres [Page 130] agone, and should looke vpon him now, would say he were nothing y ^e man he was, for he hath bin in a sore cōsumption, & none of all his phisi­tions can tel which way to cure him. Then he could shoote out thunderbolts ouer a great part of the world, and kings would quake at them: now euery man dare come within the noise of the crack & feare no danger at al. We must not think y ^t he should be vtterly destroyed at once, for the contrary is plainely to be gathered out of the Reuelat. Reade the 16. Reuel. 26. chap. ye shal find thus: The fift Angel powred forth his vial vp­on the throne of the beast: and his kingdome was darkened, & they did gnaw their tongues for sorrow. Here ye sée a beginning which doth fret at the guts: and cause ye to bite for anger. Then it followeth that the sixt Angel powred foorth his viall vpon the great riuer Euphra­tes, &c. Yet the kingdome of the beast is not vt­terly cast downe, although his munition bee throwen downe. For it doth by and by follow: I sawe thrée vncleane spirits like vnto frogs comming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, & out of the mouth of the false prophet: then he saith, they are the spi­rits of deuils, working wōders which go vnto y ^e kings of y ^e earth to moue thē to battel. Sure­ly I see no cause why we may not take your Iesuits to be of these frogs: do not they go forth into kingdoms to remoue rebellions & wars? is it not to hold vp y ^e beast▪ & that by al such wic­ked [Page 131] & diuelish means as there can be no worse.

The Iesuites be holy men, and do no more but that which is their duetie, by the appoyntment of their great shepheard. They labour to vpholde Peters chayre, and the trueth: and therefore they doe it not by any vnlawfull meanes; much lesse by such wicked & diuelish meanes as you do charge them. I will not stand to reason with ye about those places which ye apply against y ^e pope, I doubt not but they may be answered wel enough with silēce.

The Iesuites must néeds be holy men, or else the Iebusites could not: for they haue al­most as many letters in their name as they had, I suppose in déed that they do all at the ap­pointment of their shepheard: for from whence should we look for such holy-déeds, but from so holy a father. They labour to vpholde Peters chayre, and to throw downe Paules doctrine. Trueth in déed is vpholden by trueth, and née­deth no falsehoode to help her: which is a most manifest argumēt that you haue not the truth, because as I sayd ye do vphold it by all wicked and diuelish meanes.

A man would suppose to heare you speake generally that yee had great matters, but when yee come to make good in particular, then there is no­thing. Ye are to be likened to an emptie barrell, which if a man knocke, giueth a lustie sound, but pull out the spigot, and there commeth not forth one drop. What are those wicked and diuelish meanes? shew them.

I perceiue you will both knocke and pull out the tap also: and néeds I must by bro­ching somewhat, let ye sée your want of skill, which did not knocke néere enough to the bot­tome. I pray ye tell me, are lies and forgeries diuelish?

No man doth denie but they are, can yee charge y ^e Catholikes with any? if there be any thing which is not in all points true, ye must not by and by condemne it, when as it is to a good ende: as namely to keepe the people in deuotion & in awe.

True it is, when ye say, your forgeries and lies which are out of all number, were to kéepe the people in awe, and to terrifie them, & so hold them in a foolish blind deuotion. This ye did when your kingdome stoode, let anie im­pudent papist in the world denie the dunghill of grosse lies in the legend and festiuall, & some other bookes of yours. Very childrē may laugh to heare them: if I should reckon them, or stu­die to reckon them, I néede no other penance inioyned me. But of thousands a few, as these: when the diuell came to tempt S. Dunston, he held the diuell by the nose with a hot paire of tongs, & caused him to rore & crie out: it séemeth it was some yong diuel, which had a tēder nose. A rich man which neuer had done good déed in his life, but only in anger did throw a loafe at a poore mans head, when he died the diuell came for his soule because he had done neuer a good déede: on the other side our Lady she claymed [Page 133] the soule, because he had giuen a loafe to a poore man: the diuel he replied, that it was no good déed, because he did it not of deuotion, for thē he must haue béen saued. In fine, the matter was so hard to iudge whose he was, y ^t he was sent againe into the body. He was not admitted to to goe to heauen nor to hell, nor yet to Purga­torie. But it séemeth our Lady was somwhat too hastie, for being no better man, she should first haue let him bin well fried in Purgatorie, & so peraduenture she would but that the diuell was so greedy that he would not tarrie. She did not wisely neither, for what a number of soules might she lose, caught by other diuels whiles she was pleading for this. S. Katherine did vowe her selfe to bee married to none but Christ, and therefore the Virgin Marie did ap­peare to the holy Hermite Adrian, & sent him to bring Quéen Katherine to a place where y ^e ma­riage should be solēnized: which was a goodly gorgious Abbey erected for that vse: where a multitude of glorious virgins did méet the new bride, & bring her in, where she was maried to Christ, in the presence of the blessed Lady, whō they salute as Quéene of heauen, Lady of the world, & Empresse of hell, she biddeth her new daughter welcome, she caried her into y ^e quier to Christ, who tooke her by the hand, & so was maried vnto her, & put a ring vpon her finger, & did charge her to kéepe it in remēbrance. There was such a glory at that mariage as neuer the [Page 134] like: the blessed Virgin also so glad of her new daughter; and Christ of his new wife, must néedes cause excéeding ioy. Our blessed Lady came often among ye in those dayes: and now she doth scarce visite ye once in seuen yeares. What should be the cause, is she wearied, or hath she conceiued some displeasure against ye? I pray ye tell me.

You are disposed to play and sport your selfe. What if some did write such things which were their owne deuises? Is the Church to be bla­med: and if so be they were allowed by the church, you are not to be taken for an indifferent Iudge: because you do not vnderstand them. If the bles­sed Virgin did then appeare often, it might be be­cause they were then more worthy, or some other cause which we know not. Is it not enough now, although she do not appeare, that she heareth the prayers of those which cal vpon her, & helpeth thē.

If I play because I recite some part of your diuinity: how did your good ghostly men play which deuised them. Yea how did your Antichristian Synagogue play in setting them forth to be read openly to the people, and that in the Church. Your blind shiftes cannot serue the turne. Your vaine spéech is not worth the answering. Ye shall pardon me, if I procéede a little further in the declaration of your holy lyes. Ye haue a goodly historie (if the booke of lyes be true) of Saint Kenelme once king ouer some part of England: wherein you haue ma­ny [Page 135] a faire myracle. The story is very long, and therefore I must tell but the summe of it. King Kenelme had one sister which was a wicked woman, & hated him, conspired his death, with Asheberd his gouernour: who going abroad with the king, which being heauie and layd downe to sléepe, the traytour made a pit & pur­posed to kill him: but he awoke and tolde him he did labour in vaine: God would not haue him killed there. He gaue him a small rod, and told him, that where he should set it in y ^e earth, there he should be martyred. Then this tray­tor wēt forth together with him vnto a Haw­thorne, and there he pight the rod, & forth with it bare leaues and grew vp, & suddenly waxed a great Ash trée, which doth stand there vnto this day, & is called Kenelmes Ash. He smote off his head there, and buried his body in a val­ley betwéene two high hils. Then Quendred his wicked sister was glad, and was Quéene. Now although the body did lie in vnhallowed buriall, yet no man durst take it vp, for feare of Quendred the Quéene. But a poore widow had a white cow which was euery day driuen into the wood of Clēt, where she would depart from the rest of the kine, and goe into the val­ley, and there did rest all the day sitting by the corps, and at night returned home, neuer eate meate, and yet was fatter and gaue more milk then any of the kine. This thing did continue certaine yeres. Afterward as the Pope was at [Page 136] Masse in Rome, there came a white Doue, and let fall a scroll vpon the Altar, in which was written thus in letters of golde: In Clent, in Cowbage, Kenelme king borne, lieth vnder a thorne, his head off shorne. The Pope and all his could not tell the meaning thereof, vntill an English man did expound it. The Pope did send to the Archbishop of Canterbury, & wil­led the body should be taken vp. They came to the place which they knew by the white cow: they digged vp the body, and in the place there did spring vp a well, which is called Kenelms well vnto this day: where many of the people haue béen healed. When they had vp the body, it was brought to the Abbey of Winchcomb. By y ^e way they were so drie that they fainted: The Abbot of Winchcombe pitched his crosse downe, & there sprang vp a well. Before they came at the Abbey all the bels did ring with­out mans hand. Quendred demanded where­fore the bels did ring, it was told her that y ^e bo­dy of her brother was taken vp, and that the bels did ring alone. That is euen as true sayd she, as both mine eyes are fallē out of my head vpon this booke. And by and by both her eyes fell vpon her Psalter, vpon which she was rea­ding, and it is séene to this day where they fell vpon the booke. This is all as true, as any lye in the world may be.

What of all this, how can you tell whether this were true? Why might it not be so?

It might bee true as well as the rest of all your lying wonders, which yee coyned to seduce the blinde people into Idolatry. Ye had gotten this aduantage to perswade that the Pope could not lye nor erre. And therefore whatsoeuer ye did inuent, although it were neuer so grosse, it would be credited: not onely when they prayed to an Image to make them beléeue that it did sweate in taking paynes to pray for them, and rowle the eyes: but also all your fained wonders, of which I will yet giue a little further taste. For although they may séeme vnprofitable to bee vttered, yet because they declare your spirit of lying, whereby An­tichrist is knowne: there is vse in them. What a goodly storie is there of your Saint Domi­nike? When he was at Rome, hee sawe in a night Iesu Christ in the ayre, holding thrée speares, & brandishing them against the world: and his mother ran hastely against him, & de­maunded what he would doe. He sayd, all the world is full of vices, and therefore I will de­stroy them with these speares. Then shée fell downe at his féete and sayd: Deare sonne haue pitie, & tarie thy iustice by thy mercie. He sayd, Thou séest what iniuries they doe me. She said, Son temper thy wrath & tarie a little: I haue a seruant a noble fighter against vices, he shal run ouer al & vanquish thē vnto thée. And I shal giue vnto him another seruant to help, y ^e shal fight as he doth. And our Lord said, I am [Page 138] appeased. But I would sée who they be. Then she shewed him S. Dominike, and S. Fran­cis, and he praised them. Here the blessed Lady did helpe at a pinch, or else all had bin marred. These her two Apostles which shée did sende forth, euen the two Friers, Saint Dominike and S. Francis, were woorth all the twelue Apostles of Christ. There were certaine La­dies heard S. Dominike preach, which had bin seduced by heretikes: which knéeled down at his féete, and told him their case, prayed him to helpe them. He had them tarry a little, and they should see what Lord they had serued. A­non they saw spring out of the middle of them a cat right foule and horrible, which was big­ger then a great dog: which had great flaming eyes, a broad tongue, and bloody, she had a short tayle, out of which issued a terrible stink. She turned her about among the Ladies a while, and afterward mounted vp by the bell rope in­to the stéeple, and went away, leauing a foule stinke behind her. Thus were these good La­dies deliuered by holy S. Dominike. After S. Dominike was dead he healed many, & raysed vp sundry from death. The blessed Virgin S. Mary might doe the Pope now a great good turne, to giue him two such as Dominike and Francis: and it may be if he beg hard and call lowde enough, she will heare him.

Goe too, you haue these things out of the Legend: who did euer allow it to be canonicall? [Page 139] What should we regard what is spoken there? Ye may be better occupied.

If it were not allowed, why did Frier Iohn of Vignay translate it out of Latin into English? Why had it this price set vpon it to excell all other bookes as far as gold doth excel all other mettals? And therefore is called Le­genda Aurea, that is to say, Golden Legends. The festiuall, which was read vpon Saints daies in the church, doth fetch as many autho­rities out of the Legend, as out of the Scrip­tures. I perceiue you are loth to heare any further: & therefore I will tell the lesse. What say ye to that good Lady which was so deuout in the seruice of the blessed Virgin: and yet at a time vpon the purification her Priest was from home, so that she could not haue Masse. Neuerthelesse she went into her Chappel and praied to the blessed Virgin, so long vntill shée fell on sléepe. At the last she saw a great com­panie of goodly Virgins, and one glorious Vir­gin aboue the rest. She saw also one come in with a bundle of candles. She saw a priest goe to Masse with two Deacons, which were Lau­rence and Vincent: The priest was Christ. E­uery one had a candle giuen them light, and so had she: two yong Angels began the introite of the Masse: the Angels bare the Tapers, be­fore the priest all the virgins did sing y ^e Masse. When the offering came, euery one brought their candle, and they stayed for this woman [Page 140] which did not come with hers, the great Ladie sent to her two times, and yet she would not come. She sent the third time to pray her to of­fer her candle, or else to take it from her. She would not: then the messenger laid hold of the candle, he pulled and she pulled so long, that the candle was betwéene them pulled in péeces, he had one end, and she another, and withall shée did awake and found the péece of candle in her hand. Then shée did know certainly shée had heard Masse, and thanked God and our blessed Lady. Surely they did her wrong, for they should haue awaked her first, and then haue bid her offer her candle. If I had béen as this Lady, I would haue made much of that péece of candle. For it is like that some Chaunler in heauen made it. For Christ & the Angels oc­cupie candles, whensoeuer they say Masse. If I should tell all the tales of holy S. Anthonie, which fought with a number of diuels: of good S. Patrike, which in Ireland did finde out Pur­gatorie: of pitifull S. Francis: of chast Saint Hagnes, which yet was so gentle to be wooed, that at diuers times she would holde forth her finger to receiue a ring. Indéede I doe not re­member that she did receiue any but of priests: by which it doth appeare she loued them well. If (I say) I should tell all of these and a num­ber moe, I cannot tell whether you Papists might be iudged the greater liers for deuising, or I the greater foole for rehearsing. To bée [Page 141] short, he that will come to your dunghill, hée can light no where amisse dig where hée will, he shall finde it spade déep. Let him come with his dungcart as oft as hee will, he shall soone fill it. I suppose the diuell hath well emptied his bags among ye.

I told ye, I haue nothing to do with those things, if yee can shew any forgeries among vs now: the things which are past, wee cannot iudge of them.

That which is bred in the bone, will not out of the flesh. Yee haue it so natural­ly in ye to lye, that ye cannot leaue it. Ye are not ashamed to falsifie the Scriptures, the an­cient writers, and Councels: ye are not asha­med to deuise and spread abroad foule slaun­ders, against such men as GOD raysed vp to throw downe Antichrist. Although it bée of things impossible, yet tell it and a number be­léeue it. As for exāple, a great Bishop of yours did preach in open assemblie, that the Diuell came like a trimme fellow, fell in loue with a mans daughter, begat her with childe, which was Martin Luther. Is it like that the Diuell could beget children now in his old daies? and yet I know it goeth for paiment among the ignorant blind papists. A number of things ye deuise against Caluin, Beza and others, which are euen as true as that.

These men were so good that a man need not to deuise any thing of them: he may find euen [Page 142] enough of that which is true: and too much to be told.

You are not sure of it, although ye af­firme it.

Yes I am very sure of many things.

Did ye euer know any of these men: or haue ye séene their conuersation?

What though I haue neuer knowne any of them, nor seene their conuersation. I haue heard enough, and that by such as I may beleeue.

If that bee sufficient, yee might haue heard of Christ that he had a diuell, Matth. 9. and by as credible men as you haue any: likewise that he was a glutton, Matth. 11. and an vnmeasurable drinker of wine, a friend of Publicanes and sinners. Ye might haue heard many things also against S. Paul. This is the equitie which is among you Papists. Some one of ye doe deuise a lye, and then ye tosse it from one to another, vntill at the last it hath a passeport giuen it from such credible men, that it may go where it wil. But I will let this passe, and come to some other of your wicked meanes, by which yee labour to stay vp the rotten chayre of Antichrist. I will come yet to greater and more shamefull villa­nies, which trueth neuer néedeth, because the Lord doth support her.

Can you finde such matters against vs, and not see your selues? I warrant ye, that which ye doe accuse vs of is to be found in you: howso­euer ye accuse vs, and excuse your selues.

Where can ye finde that euer y ^e truth was maintained by periuries, and breaking couenants? Let a man reade and reade again, among all Heathen men, Turks, and Iewes, where shall he finde that it hath bin taken ge­nerally to be allowed, that they might sweare and forsweare to deceiue, and not make con­science to kéepe the oth? Among you this is a principle, faith is not to bee kept with here­tikes. Which also yee doe from time to time put in practise. It is not to bee looked for that you should sticke to make lyes, when yee dare publish it to the world in writing, that ye may lawfully forsweare your selues, and breake the faith which ye haue giuen by oth. By this meanes ye haue cōmitted very horrible slaugh­ters, and cruell murthers: the like whereof haue scarsely béen heard of. Are these practises of God, O ye bloody, periured, forsworne wret­ches? Doth the holy Ghost leade men into such kind of dealing? no verely, it is the spirit of the father of lyes, of periuries, of murthers, which ye are lead withall. Gods spirit is the spirit of trueth, hee neuer teacheth men to lye, and to deale falsly: and therefore those people are be­witched, which think the Pope & his adherēts to bee lead by the spirit of God: when as they be so full of all abominable treacheries.

What should we meddle with these things: I cannot tell how a man should perswade you, to see the authoritie of the Church. You iudge of all [Page 144] things after your owne reason. I haue no delight to deale in these matters: I will not say that which I could say.

I cannot blame ye that ye are loth to meddle in these matters. It were a great deale better if they were kept close among your selues. For now no man that is wise will trust ye, neither vpon promise nor yet vpon oth, which ye breake so often. There be many good­ly rules which ye deuise now secretly among your selues. But what should you go about to perswade with me in these matters, which am not first perswaded how great authoritie the Church hath? For ye haue none other argu­ment but the authoritie of the Church to allow these things. Gods word doth curse and con­demne periuries and murders committed by such treacheries. To dispute out of that for the maintenance of them, yee know yee shall haue but a cold suite of it. It is a great deale better therefore to lay the word of God aside, and to set forth what power the new God hath for to change the nature of things. He is of another maner power then men wéete. The GOD which hath spoken in the Scriptures, can doe nothing nor say nothing but trueth: but the God of Rome hath power to do what he will, and to say what hee list, whether it bee true or false. This is a mightie God, he can play both fast and loose at his pleasure. Let a thing bée neuer so much commended by God in y ^e Scrip­tures, [Page 145] if he say it is naught, then is it naught. So on the other side, whatsoeuer it bee that is condemned to be euill, he hath power to make it good. This is the cause why you say many are deceiued, they looke but to the Scriptures, and forget this God, which hath power ouer the Scriptures.

If you may accuse what ye list, then it were well. But let vs see wherein the Pope hath chal­lenged any such power.

Haue not I shewed ye already in some part, as in lyes, murders and periuries? Will ye haue more? what say ye to treasons and re­bellions? Doth not the Pope make it law­full to commit treason? Doth he not discharge subiects of their obedience and subiection to their Prince? Doth he not giue any of them leaue to kill their Prince? and maketh it a worke greatly meritorious? What diuell can goe further then this? Doth not God set vp Princes, and hath not hee put the sword into their hands? Doth not he charge men to bée subiect & to obey them? Doth not he say, that whosoeuer doth resist them, doth resist the or­dinance of God? and that those which doe re­sist, do purchase to themselues damnation. O ye traiterous wretches, doe ye not sée that yée draw all those into damnation, & vnder Gods curse, whom ye draw from their loue and obe­dience towards their Prince? Let all men consider this: hath a greasie balde Priest of [Page 146] Italie, power against Gods word, to giue leaue to subiects and inferiour persons in England, to play the vilaines and traytors against their soueraigne prince, whom God hath set ouer them: for whose defence God doth require at their hands to giue their liues? Shal the foule beast of Rome haue power to reward y ^t déede in heauē, which God hath threatned to punish in hell? Let all the people of this land consider this, and shun such filthy & abominable men. Some will say, wherefore should wee eschew them being honest? If ranke traytors be ho­nest, then are all the Iesuites, Seminaries, and popish priests, with such as loue and har­bour them, to be counted honest.

I see more and more that I cannot preuaile by speaking, and therefore I will giue ye ouer, say euen what ye list. I see it is good for a man to take heed with whom he doth talke. I could answere ye to the full, if it might doe good. Thus much I will say, that it is one thing to commit treason a­gainst a prince which is godly: and another thing, to kill an heretike which is no lawfull prince. The subiects indeede may not disobey and rebell: but when the prince is no right prince, then they are no longer subiects. What say ye to Ehud in the booke of the Iudges? did not he slay Eglon king of Moab, and that vnder colour of a message? What say ye to Iehoiada the priest? did not hee cause them to slay Athaliah, when she had reigned certaine yeares, and set vp Ioash to bee king? If [Page 147] the priest of the law had this power, how much more the priest of the Gospell?

Ye would giue me ouer now, ye say, but your traiterous heart is so full that it will not suffer ye. Indéede I know ye like it much better to deale among the vnlearned people, whom ye may draw to your opinion: or with such as ye know to beare the same minde that you doe. Among these ye dare be bolde to rea­son the matter to the full. But this I say vnto ye, let the diuell bring his note booke with him: let the Pope and all his prelates vtter al the skill they can: yet the word of God shall still be able to beate them downe in this mat­ter, to proue that subiects incurre damnation, when they rebell against princes, which are the ministers of GOD. As for the examples which ye bring, I will shew how they doe not proue that which you alleage them for. And then I will let ye see, how it is to be proued by the law of God, that subiects haue no such po­wer against their princes: but that euery pri­uate man doth very horribly rebell against the Lord God, which rebelleth against the powers set vp by God.

Howsoeuer yee may seeme to dally with those examples which I haue alleaged, yet sure I am, they proue that which I doe alleage them for, both y ^t it is lawful to kil wicked princes, & also by colourable dealing: for we haue example of the one in Ehud, and of the other also in Iehoiada.

I will maintaine that which I haue said, and shew that they doe not make for that which ye cite them for. It is set forth in the Iudges, that Israel had done euill in y ^e sight of the Lord, and he made Eglon king of y ^e Moa­bites to preuaile against them, & to bring them into seruitude. When the children of Israel cried vnto the Lord, he raised vnto them a de­liuerer, euen Ehud. Afterward it is set foorth how he came, went with a present to Eglon, desiring to speake with him alone, and so slew him. Consider well in this storie, first, how Eglon was an vniust vsurper, Iudg. 3. oppressing Is­rael like a cruell tyrant where he had no right. Secondly, Ehud is no priuate man, but raised vp by the Lord to be their deliuerer. Where­fore he had authoritie from God to put downe Eglon, euē as wel as a lawful king hath right to fight against such as inuade his land, and to kil thē. Lastly, where Ehud did it colourably, we may not draw it into an exāple, because it was done by an extraordinary spirit: which y ^e pope cannot giue to other, because he hath him not himself. If he could giue to a priuate man, that spirit which Ehud had to warrāt him, thē were it somwhat. As for the example of Atha­liah the mother of king Achasia, [...]. King. 11. after she saw her son was dead, did arise & murder al y ^e kings séed, or the blood royal, and so vsurped the king­dome: she was neither lawful Quéene, nor yet to be suffred to liue, because she had cōmitted so [Page 149] horrible and cruel murder. Wherfore Iehoia­da, in whose custody the yong king was secret­ly kept, whē he brought him forth to be crow­ned, did not by his owne right set vp a king, whō it pleased him: but was an helpe to bring the yong king to his right, & to put downe the wicked murderer & vsurper. This now ma­keth nothing at all for the pope, whē he taketh vpon him power to depose kings at his plea­sure, and to set vp whom he shall thinke good.

I see well a man cannot bring you to see the power which the prince of the Apostles had, and now his successor hath for to depose princes. What should a man contend with one which doth not care what he denieth?

Christ Iesus whē he was desired by one that he would cōmaund his brother to deuide the land: answered, Luk. 12. Man who made me a iudge or a deuider? Wherby he doth euidently shew that he had no ciuil authority, no not in y ^e least causes: for els hee would not haue said, who made me a iudge: much lesse he had authoritie in the highest matters, as to depose kings. And for this cause when Pilate did aske him, if hée were a king, he did answer: Iohn 18. my kingdom is not of this world: & likewise he did testifie his sub­iection to y ^e Emperor, Matth. 17. when he & Peter did pay tribute. How thē doth it come to passe that the pope shuld chalenge to haue that because he is M. vicar, which neither Christ nor Peter had? No, he hath it not y ^t way, but because he is the [Page 150] man of sin which hath exalted himselfe aboue all that is called God. Moreouer, what sayth Christ to his Apostles? The kings of the na­tions rule ouer them, Matth. 10. and they that are great exercise authoritie ouer them: but it shall not be so among you. I pray ye sir, if the Apostles might not be as kings & princes, how had Pe­ter this power to be king of kings, or how cā a priest in Italie, because (as he saith) he is the suc­cessor of Peter, haue this high dignitie, to be so farre aboue kings? Ye must néeds confesse, vn­lesse ye will be wilful, that the Pope can haue no such power neither from Peter, nor Christ: they doe both renounce him. Then I reason thus, (as I said before) Princes are set vp by God: he hath made them his substitutes here on earth, he hath not alone giuen them y ^e seate and the sword, but also hee hath clothed them with glorie, & put vpon them as it were of his owne robes, when he calleth them Gods. We are cōmanded to be subiect, to honor and obey, not to resist vnder paine of damnation. If they command any thing which is disagréeing to Gods will, they haue not that power ouer our conscience: wee must obey God rather then man. Neuerthelesse we are stil subiects to that power which they haue receiued from God. And being but priuate men, we must say with Dauid, God forbid that I should lay my hand vpō my master the king, the Lords annointed. I say therefore that your Iesuites, or whosoe­uer [Page 151] fauour them (which know their practises) are traytors before God and man: because they dare lift vp their hand against their soueraigne prince, placed in the throne by the high God, and subiect to no creature in earth. I say there­fore let all men take héede of your cursed and damnable waies. Let all men sée, that your kingdome is not of God, which ye vpholde by treasons, periuries, lyes, murders, and all kind of euill meanes.

All is nought of our side, and all good of yours. Ye are so malicious that whatsoeuer we do ye condēne it, your charity doth shew what ye are.

We must néeds say all that is nought, which God saith is so. I confesse our charitie and yours are not al one, for the charitie of you papists, is a burning loue. Ye can both loue a man, and cut his throte also. The Lord defend his people from such Vipers: which sting to death, when they be gentlest of all. But Idola­trie is alwaies cruell, & cannot be maintained, but with diuelish and bloody mindes.

I know ye doe account vs to be Idolaters, and so ye do call vs, but we are as far from it as you be: wee condemne it, and hate it more then you do. And although ye goe about to abuse and wrest the scriptures against vs, yet ye shall neuer bee able to driue any true Catholike from the right pure and deuout worship of God.

Will ye confesse if I proue that you are Idolaters that yours is the false Church, and [Page 152] that ye are fallen away from the trueth, that the Pope is Antichrist.

I must needes confesse that Idolaters are fallen from the trueth: but where as ye make offer to proue that we commit Idolatrie, I say still wee be the furthest frō it of all other. And in this I think my selfe sufficiently armed to stand against all the heretikes in the world, proue what ye can.

Al those which worship idols, are con­demned in the holy Scriptures to be idolaters. But it seemeth you Papists doe not worship idols: at least ye would beare men in hand ye doe not, when as in very déede ye doe it in most shamefull maner. Where hath it euer béene heard of that men haue more doted vpō stocks and stones, then the Papists? Wil ye stil then be past shame, and say you hate idolatrie, you are furthest from it of all other?

I say still, and neede not be ashamed, that it is the blindnesse of you heretikes, which either cannot or will not see that ours is no Idolatrie. This sin of Idolatrie is where they worship Idols: wee haue images of the true God, of the blessed Virgin, of the Apostles, and of other Saints: wee haue no idols of feined and false Gods: wee wor­ship not the images themselues neither, but the things which are by them represented. Moreouer, we doe not giue latria to the images of Saints, but dulia, which God in the scriptures doth neuer con­demne. I say therefore ye helpe vs when ye say we worship stocks and stones, or that we worship a­ny [Page 153] besides the true God. You are the idolaters your selues.

You would faine purge and cléere your selues from idolatrie, and therefore ye haue de­uised these distinctions: first, ye would make a difference betwéene Idoll and Image, yours are Images but not Idols. Secondly, ye shift the matter that ye do not worship y ^e Images themselues, but that which the Image doth put ye in minde of. And last of all, your déepe distinction betwéene latria, which is worship, which ye giue onely to God, and dulia, which is seruice, which ye bestow vpon the Saints. I will lay open how vaine these things are: and yet how they be subtill to deceiue poore ig­norant soules.

I know your answers well enough, ye take vpon ye to defend, that an Idoll and an Image are all one. And so when it is said, God made man af­ter his owne Image, yee may translate it after his owne Idoll. It may be said of the picture & image of the prince, this is the princes Idoll. Likewise if a painter paint an image of a dog, ye may say this is an Idoll of a dog. Ah Sirs this is ouer grosse, ye shew by this what your skill is in other things.

Now must ye néeds win the spurres, because wee say that Image and Idoll is all one: sauing that the one is Greeke, and the o­ther Latin. Ye say, thē we must say God made man after his owne Idoll: which were very grosse. I confesse that in our tongue it were [Page 154] grosse indéed, because the word Idoll is by com­mon vse of spéech taken alwaies in euill part, but in the Gréeke tongue it was not so. But I will come néerer vnto ye, to shew your deceit­full dealing in this: shall wee desire a better iudge in this matter then the Hebrew tongue, in the scriptures: in which it is said, that God made man after his owne image, and in which there is much spoken of idols? What if I proue that hee vseth the same word where hee spea­keth of idols, which he vseth where hee saith, God made man after his owne image? Will there then be such a difference?

When I see this, then I will beleeue it, be­fore I will not: the Scriptures do speake of images, & it may be there is the same word. But you must proue it where hee doth speake it of those which were idols indeed, of the heathen, & of false gods.

I wil shew where he speaketh of idols indéed which were worshipped by the heathē, and proue that he vseth the same word. The word in Moses is Tselem, after which Adam was created: Gen. 1. Now looke where hee speaketh to the children of Israel by Moses, to command them to break down the idols of the heathen, and ye shall finde the same word. As Numb. 33. He saith, ye shall destroy Tsalme, Massecotham, that is their moulten images. In the 2. booke of Kings, chap. 11. it is said, They went into the house of Baal, and brake downe his images, which he calleth by y ^e same name. [Page 155] By this it doth appeare, that in the holy scrip­tures there is no such difference betwéene idol and image, as the Papists would beare men in hand. For these were idols by their owne con­fession, which yet are set forth vnder that same word, which Moses vseth for the likenes of God, after which man was created.

All this doth proue nothing, for wee doe grant that which ye haue said. Because idols be al­so images, although euery picture and image bee not an idol: for an idol is an image which is wor­shipped and taken to be God.

It doth proue this, for which I did alleage it, that the same word is in that tongue vsed indifferently for the image of GOD, and for the idols of the heathen. But because ye say it doth proue nothing, séeing idols be images, although euery image is not by and by an idol, vnlesse it be worshipped. Let me demand this: Is not that which is forbidden to bee made in the Scriptures an idoll?

I know no man which doth deny, but that is an idoll which the Scriptures do forbid. But you must go further then that: for ye must proue that those which the Scripture doth forbid are but cal­led images: and so images and idols to be all one.

Ye say right, for those which the scrip­ture condemneth, we must cōfesse to be idols: then if I proue that the scripture doth condēne images, it must néeds follow that they be idols. I require no more, for it is manifest that the [Page 156] Scripture doth forbid all images of God, as in Deuterono. 4. there is forbidden not onely Semel, but also Temnuah and Tabnith. And in Esay 40. Demuth. Who will bee so mad as to deny but that here are images forbidden: and therefore that images are idols.

I see no cause why I should not deny it, for they were also idols, because they were made to be worshipped.

I sée no cause why I may not estéeme you to be obstinatly blinded. Because in these places which I haue cited, he doth not onely speake of the true GOD, but also the reasons which are set downe to forbid the images, doe disproue not onely the worshipping, but also the very making. For why doth Moses tell them, ye heard the voyce of words, when God spake, but yee saw no similitude? Why doth Esay set forth the incomprehensible greatnes of the Lord: but to conclude as he doth, that there can no similitude be made of God? And therefore this conclusion doth stand sure, that images in the Scripture and idols bee all one. And therefore the Papists do but iuggle when they shift their hands of idolatrie in this ma­ner: we doe not worship idols, we do but serue images. Ours be the images of the true God: and we take them not to bee any more then i­mages. If this would haue serued the turne, the Israelites might haue answered to Moses, and Esay, well enough.

Are ye of the minde that euery picture or image of God is forbidden to bee made, although a man doe not worship it. Doth the Scripture say any such thing?

I must néedes be of that minde, when I haue the words of the cōmandement, Thou shalt not make, &c. and not onely those places which I did alleage with reasons to forbid the making, but also other reasons: as namely, that GOD dwelleth in light which none can come vnto, whom neuer man saw, neither can sée, as S. Paul saith. Againe, 1. Tim. 6. Acts 17. the same Apostle telleth, that the Godhead is not like siluer or golde, &c. Againe, God is incorruptible, man is mortall: which reason is vsed in the 1. chap. to the Romanes. Sundry things may bée spo­ken to shew that an image is a teacher of lyes: and therefore accursed and abominable before God. For it is wicked to lye of a man: but most abominable to transforme God into an heape of lyes: as when a man saith, this is the picture of God: then must it be taken to be like God: or els why is it his image more thē another thing: these lyes then are in it, God is inuisible, this is séene: God is aliue, this is dead: God is incomprehensible, for the hea­uen of heauens cannot containe him, this is contained in a small roome: God is almightie, this hath no power: God is glorious, and in­corruptible, this is subiect to rust and corrup­tion: yea to conclude, it is nothing but lyes, [Page 158] because it doth neither in shape, because God is a spirit, and that is a grosse substāce, neither in any property set forth that which is in God, but the quite contrary. If any should picture your Pope like a dog or a toade, ye would not take it well: and yet hee is liker to either of these, then the Lord is to any image: yée doe more disgrace him when ye picture him like a­ny creature, then ye can doe to any man to pic­ture him like a toad.

What though it bee not like him in some poynts, is it therefore to bee condemned? If men should worship it, that were euil: but we worship that which it doth represent.

I am out of doubt that ye worship that which the image doth represent: that is not God, for it doth not represēt him in any point, but it is the diuell, who is the father of lyes, and therefore the father of images which are full of abominable lyes. But you papists haue a prety conueiance, when ye beare men in hād, that Idolaters are they, either which worship false gods, or which worship the images them­selues, of the true God. As though either the heathen men were so grosse, or the Idolaters among the Iewes, as to take the image it selfe to be God. Those are poore men which know not that.

The Iewes did worship the calfe it self, and take it to be God. The heathen did take their Idols to be Gods: and therefore they did worship them.

To proue that these did not worship the idols themselues, nor take them to bee gods: a few reasons may serue. For if it be shewed that the heathen did not, then must it néedes follow that the Iewes did not: vnlesse ye will make them which had more knowledge of God, to be more brutish then the other. Now for the heathen, S. Paul saith, Rom. 1. that which might bée knowne of God was manifest in them: which he expresseth to bee the eternall power & God­head. If then the sense of the Godhead could not bee rooted out of the hearts of these, much lesse out of the hearts of y ^e Iewes. This thing is manifest in the heathen, that beléeued the gods and goddesses to be in heauen: & therfore they thought (as their writings do shew) that oftentimes they came downe from heauen, and appeared to them in the likenes of men and women. I néede not recite particulars.

The heathen did beleeue that the idols were gods: els why should S. Paul perswade, Acts 19. that those were not gods which are made with hands. The learned among the heathen, did thinke as you say, but not the multitude.

Although the heathen did know that the idols were not the very gods themselues, yet this perswasion of S. Paul was not néed­lesse, because they did ascribe a certaine diuini­tie vnto them: they thought the gods and god­desses came downe into them, and did there re­ceiue honor. Euen as you papists thought of [Page 160] your idols, and therefore you would trudge a great way on pilgrimage. As for the other ex­cuse which ye make it is false: for when Paul and Barnabas came to Lystra, Acts 14. and had hea­led a man that was lame, did not all the mul­titude cry out, Gods are come downe vnto vs in the likenes of men? They took Barnabas to be Iupiter, and Paul to be Mercurie. And thē Iupiters priest came to haue offered sacrifice vnto them, as he had done to the idoll. The Iewes therfore which had séene the wonders which God wrought in Egypt & in y ^e red sea, which had heard him speak out of the fire, with so great terror: could not bee so brutish, as to think the Calfe which they saw Aaron make, to be the God indéed which had brought them out of Egypt, but the image to represent the same God, whom they ment to worship in it. Where the foolish papists may see that in this foule idolatrie of the Iewes, they neither did worship the idoll it self: neither any false gods. You doe worse then they, because ye worship the idols of those which are no gods: as of the virgin Mary, and other Saints.

I tolde ye before that we doe not worship any image, but the thing represented: I sayd also that we doe not worship the Saints: for wee giue not latria vnto them, but dulia: which you can not proue to be any where forbidden. But you wil haue your owne saying to charge vs with what ye lust.

We charge ye not with any thing but that which is easie to be proued: I haue shewed that the grosse idolaters among the heathen did not take the very image to be God, neither did worship it, but that which it did represent. And now I tell ye, that as ye play the beasts that way, so now ye play y ^e part of subtil fooles: which in seducing others, deceiue your selues. For this difference which ye make betwéene latria, and dulia, is not found in the scriptures. And besides that, the word of God doth forbid to giue dulian to any but God.

You haue set down two things which ye will neuer be able to proue: the one, that ye say there is no such difference between latria and dulia: the o­ther that dulia is to be giuen only to God. If ye cā proue these two, let vs see a peece of your cūning.

Our Sauiour Christ is a very compe­tent Iudge in this matter: and he vseth the one word for the other. For where it is said in Mo­ses Deut. 6. and also 10. Thou shalt feare the Lord thy God, and him shalt thou serue: he doth expresse it in Matth. 4. Thou shalt wor­ship the Lord thy God, & him onely shalt thou serue: I cite it to this end, to shew that where Moses hath set downe tagnabod, Christ doth translate it by the Euangelist, latreuscis: which is suffcient to shew that he put no difference betwéene them. To proue that dulia is forbid­den to images, we néede goe no further then to the commandement, where he doth forbid [Page 162] to make them: and then he saith, Thou shalt not bow to them: neither shalt thou serue thē: for he vseth the verbe gnabad. I might alleage sundrie other places: as Psalm. 97. where he saith, They shall be confounded gnobede pesel, which serue the grauen image. You blind Pa­pists would pluck out mēs eyes, by your vaine shifts and foolish distinctions: you make a dif­ference where there is none. If euer there were abominable and foule idolatrie commit­ted in the world, either by Iewes or Pagans, or other, it is among you, ye goe, no doubt, as farre as euer did any. Now a daies the papists, at least a number of them, doe waxe more craf­tie: they will not with their forefathers alow any thing to the idols themselues: but al to the things which they represent: wheras in times past the controuersie was whether the image was to be worshipped with the same worship, that the first paterne that it did represent was? Some of your great clarks did affirme the one way, and some the other: for one part defen­deth that the images of the Trinitie, and of the Crosse were to bee worshipped with latria, diuine worship: the other part doth reply that latria is proper only to God: and therefore not to be giuen to the images: they must adore thē with some lower worship. But shift how yée can, agrée or disagrée among your selues, the holy word of God standeth still, condemning and accursing ye as detestable Idolaters. For [Page 163] say what ye can, ye ascribe and giue worship vnto them.

Haue ye by this proued, that dulia is to be giuen only to God?

I suppose that it is proued, when the Scripture doth make no difference, but vseth latria, and dulia in one sense. For ye all confesse now that diuine worship is to be giuen only to God. Ye take dulia for a diuine seruice or ado­ration: doth it not then follow that God is robbed of his right, who is our Lord and wee his seruants? Now all may sée, that are not obstinate, that the Romish Church is not the true Church of Christ, because ye commit ido­latrie. I doe therefore conclude, that al which will haue saluation, must remoue themselues from ye, and returne home to the ancient and true Catholike Church.

I wonder with what face ye can speake thus: ye would haue men depart from our church, as you say to the ancient & true Catholike church: when as ye cannot shew vs that antiquitie: for ma­sters it is well knowne how yong your Church is. To the ancient Church, we would not deny to re­turne, if we were out of the way: but to you, which are newly sprung vp, we may not.

It is a strange thing that men are so wilfull: we doe beléeue all the doctrine & faith, which the Prophets and Apostles taught and beléeued: we cleaue only to this, & admit none other, and yet your blind eyes cannot sée what [Page 164] antiquitie we call ye vnto. Wee are but men of late yeares, if the doctrine which wée teach be no elder, I would wish ye not to beléeue it. But seeing we bring nothing but that which was from the beginning, wee may boldly say that ours is the ancient Catholike Church: and therefore all those which be not members of it cannot haue saluation. As for you, looke how farre ye are gone from the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles, so farre are ye re­moued from the true Catholike Church. Your doctrine is contrary to theirs, your Pope is nothing like Christ and his Apostles.

I see that I cannot remoue you, nor you shal not remoue me. I must euen leaue ye as I found you. I am sorie that ye are so far spent: yet I hope one day to see ye of a better minde. For a day will come when this geere will be better looked vpon.

I may not be remoued from that which I know most certainly to be the trueth: vnto that which is most cursed lies. And as for you, I leaue ye to the Lord, no hope I see to winne yée: for the day which ye hope for, wée sée that the Lorde hath hitherto miraculously disap­poynted yée: and hath brought to light your traiterous purposes. Our hope is that the same Lorde will still protect our gracious Quéene and her honorable counsellors. Won­derfull great blessings hath GOD bestowed vpon vs by her, and by them. For which as many as haue any drop of grace, cannot but [Page 165] giue heartie thankes and praise to the Lord, and sure I am, that vnlesse our sinnes doe pro­uoke him, he is ready to bestow greater. Al­though a great number of ye: euen as it were very diuels incarnate, doe enterprise and gape for her destruction, and the destruction of those ouer whom she doth spread her wings to co­uer them. Al good subiects within this realme, both to GOD and their prince, are bound in conscience, not onely to curse, hate, and detest, from the bottome of their hearts, your hellish and cruell practises: but also to lift vp their hands and hearts to heauen, and to powre out continuall supplications to the Lord, for the preseruation of her Maiestie, and her Coun­sell. Desiring God to guide them with his spi­rit, to doe nothing but that which is good and pleasing in his sight: also to giue them al gifts of wisedome and courage, and to multiplie their dayes, with true honour in this life, and eternall blessednes in the life to come. If men did sée how néedfull this prayer is at this time, that this realme, & the poore Church of God in this realme may be in safetie: it would cause them in stead of a few ordinarie colde prayers in this behalfe, to send forth strong cries into the eares of the Lord, and to powre out riuers of teares, to moue him to pitie and compassion. For when that greasie priest of Italy doth set ye on, to spoyle vs of all peace both for body and soule: and to take from vs