VVEll ouertaken my friende.

I thanke you Syr.

How farre doeye [...] trauell this way?

Iwentie myles.

Doe you dwell in Essex.

Yea, not farre from Clelme­forde.

What call yee the Towne where yee dwell?

G. B.

Haue yee a preacher there?

Wee haue an honest man our Curat.

Doth he teach his flock?

Hée doth his good will, and more ye cannot require of a man.

Yee did commende him euen now, to be an honest man.

Commende him: yea I maye commende him: I am perswa­ded wee haue the beste Prieste in this Countreye, wee woulde bee lothe too forgoe him for the Learnedest of them all.

I praye ye let mee heare what his vertues bee, for which yee doe commend him so highly.

Hee is as gentle a person as e­uer I see: a verye good fellowe, hee will­not sticke when good Fellowes and ho­nest men meete together too spende his groate at the Alehouse: I cannot tell, they preache and preache, but hee doeth liue as well as the best of them all. I am afrayde when he is gone wée shall neuer haue the like againe.

Bee these the greate ver­tues whiche yee doe commende hym [Page 2] for, hee maye haue all these, and yet be more meete for too keepe swine, then too bee a Sheaphearde ouer the flocke of Christe, is hee able to teache the peo­ple, and doeth hee instruct them in Gods woord?

I knowe not what teaching yée woulde haue, hee doeth reade the seruice, as well as anye of them all, and I thinke there is as good edifiyng in those prayers and Homilies, as in anye that the Prea­cher canne make: let vs learne those first.

That is not all which is re­quired in a Minister, for a boye of tenne yeeres olde canne doe all this: doeth hee not teache them too knowe the will of GOD and reprooue naughtinesse among the people?

Yes that hee doeth, for if there bee anye that doe not agree, hée will seeke for too make them friendes: for hee will gette them too playe a game or two at Bowles or Cardes, and too drynke together at the Alehouse: I thynke it a Godlye waye, to make Charitie: hee is none of these busie Controulers: for [Page] if hée were, hée coulde not be so well liked of some (and those not of the meanest) as he is.

Doe yee call the Preachers of Gods worde busie Controulers? doe they goe further then Gods woorde doeth leade them?

Wée may call them busie con­trollers, I thinke we shall doe nothing short­ly, as poore a man as I am, I woulde not for fortye shillinges that wee had one of them, there be more of my minde.

Some poore men perhaps.

Naye, the best in the Parish, who would not so well like of our Curat, if hee should meddle that way.

I perceiue nowe what manner of man your Curat is, and I see like master like scholler.

Why so I pray yée?

Why so, I smell how vnmeete hee is, & also how ignorant you are. Let me que­stion a little while with yee concerning that which yee haue vttered.

I trust I haue vttered nothing but that whiche doeth beecome an honest man.

Nay all your speech doeth bee­wraye that you are a carnall man, for you haue made a verye fine description of a good Curate, what meane yee when yee say hee is a good fellowe, and will not sticke to spende his money among good fellowes, is it not beecause hee is a potte compani­on?

Doe yée mislike good felowship, is it not lawfull for honest men to drinke and bee merrie together?

I doe not mislike true friendship, whiche is in the Lorde, knitte in true Godli­nesse, but I mislike this vice, which ouerflow­eth euerie where, that Drunkardes meete to­geather and sitte quaffing, and the minister which shoulde reprooue them, to bee one of the chiefe: when hee shoulde bee at his studie, to bee vpon the Alebench at Cardes or dice.

I perceiue you are one of those curious and precise fellowes, whiche will allowe no recreation, what woulde yée haue men doe? we shall doe nothing shortly. You would haue them sitte mooping alwayes at their bookes, I like not that.

Nay my friende, I doe not al­lowe that recreation, whiche prophane [Page] [...] [Page 3] [...] [Page] men call so, whiche is no recreation, but a torment to a Godly minde, to see men drunken, to heare them sweare, and rayle, to spende their goodes and their time so lewdelie, and hee that shoulde teach them, to bee a Ringleader: as there bee manie as it seemeth, whiche are entred into the mini­sterie, for none other purpose, but to liue an idle life, to haue leysure to play at Cardes, or Tables, and Bowles all the Weeke. And therefore they haue no skill to teache, but like vnsauerie salte, are not good euen for the dunghill.

These thinges were vsed before you were borne, and will bee when you are gone. So long as men thinke no hurte when they play and be merry.

I perceiue yee are of the ryght stampe, yee are light vppon an argument, whiche may well be termed olde Suersebee, because it bringeth a reason whiche doeth sticke by manye, when all other reasons forsake them. But lett vs pull this olde fel­lowe out of his newe coat, and yee shall see what a leane shrimpe hee is, and so fee­ble, that hee cannot goe on stiltes: these thinges were vsed saye you, beefore you were borne, so were all other naughtie vi­ces, [Page 4] are they nowe good because they bee olde? Because men committed them before I was borne, and will doe when I am dead.

I meane not so, but there were as wise men, and wiser then hee nowe among our Forefathers: and they would not haue vsed nor allowed such thinges, if they had not béene good: they knewe well enough what they did. Let not vs bée more precise thē they were.

I perceiue you grounde your faith and your doinges vpon men, and not vpon Gods worde.

I praye GOD I may fol­lowe our Forefathers, and doe no woorse then they did: what shoulde wee seeke for too bee wyser or better then they: I woulde wée coulde doe but as well as they did.

Doe you not thinke that there were among our forefathers, theeues, murtherers, adulterers, drunkardes, and suche like?

I thinke there haue béene al­wayes euill dooers: and wilbe while the worldes end.

Woulde yee haue vs to followe those, and to take their vices?

Wee are not to follow any thing but that whiche is good: and those whiche were godly and wise.

Is there anye thing good, but that which God setteth downe in his worde? and were any wise and Godly, but such as did followe the will of GOD expressed in his word?

There is nothing good but of GOD, and suche as doe as hee commaun­deth.

Then you see olde suresebee layde flat vppon the grounde, and youre lustye champion is manifested to bee but k [...]ne and bones, and the same draugh rotten: for nowe by your owne confession doeth followe that the woorde of God is the one­ly rule, and we must followe our Forefathers no further then they followe the woorde of God. You must not followe Dauid nor A­braham in euery thing they did. Further­more also these naughtie vices and corrupte customes came from the wicked forefathers, & not from the godly, which followed gods word.

That is true, but I will fol­low [Page 5] our forefathers, nowe there is no loue, then they liued in friendshippe, and made merrie together, nowe there is no good neighbourhood: nowe euerie man for him­selfe, and are readie to pull one another by the throate.

There are but a few of your mind in this thing, are there?

Yes the greatest parte: for I knowe almost none, but they will affirnie this matter.

If the greatest part to bee of your mind, wherefore is there not then a greate deale of loue and freendshippe where you say there is none: why doe yee not beeing the most in number, repayre the ruines of that olde faythfull friendshippe, which yee say is decayed? yee saye that there was loue and friendshippe, and yee seeme to lament the want of them, and yet there is none in your selues: for yee be very full of malice and strife? is there any buzzarde so blinde, but that hee may espie your grosse follie and vanitie in this point: whē with open mouth, ye cry for loue, loue, and bee the greatest enemies thereunto your selues.

Moreouer yee followe your owne fonde [Page] and doating opinion, that yee imagine a thing whiche neuer was, for the Worlde hath euer beene like it selfe, full of debate and strife, a verie fewe in all ages whiche haue had true loue: Againe, you call none loue, but that carnall loue, whiche is in eating and drinking, and other foolishe delightes. That whiche is the true loue, you condemne to bee hatred: For if a man admonishe and reprooue you for anie naughtie vice, which is the grea­test loue: by and by yee stampe and stare like madde men, and saye nowe there is no loue, except a man doe flatteryee, and bee partaker of your foule and beastlie sinnes, yee are at deadlie hatred with him. But lett vs returne againe too Syr Robert, yee sayde hee was as good a liuer as the best of them all.

I saye so still, for he is content with his liuing: many of your spirituall men are neuer satisfied: for with that poore liuing he hath, he doth kéepe a good house and doeth féede the poore.

You proue him to bee a good Liuer, by comparing him with those whiche are woorse: It is all one [Page 6] as if a manne woulde proofe a theefe whiche hath stollen twentie pounde too bee a good theefe, because hee is not so e­uill as hee, whiche hath stollen a thousande poundes.

Yée doe not well to compare true men with theeues.

Is not he a theefe which doth take the hire and doth not that which hee shoulde doe for it?

He is as good as a théefe, I thinke so.

Doe not they robbe them whiche take the liuing and doe not feede the flocke? Let mee aske yee a question, if a man robbe and steale and then keepe a house, and feast his neighboures with it, and bee a Murtherer, will his good house keeping make him a good Li­uer?

No that it will not.

Let mee aske yee another questi­on, which is the worse murtherer, hee whiche doth murther the body, or hee whiche doeth murther the soule?

Hee whiche doeth murther the soule.

Then hee whiche shoulde feede mens bodies committed vnto hym, and doeth pine them to death, is a murtherer: and hee which should feede mens soules and doth sterue them, is a greater murtherer, and so his good house keeping cannot make him a good man, robbing so many, and killing so many.

I will not beléeue that hee doth kill any.

That is because yee will not be­leeue the saying of Christe: if the blynde leade the blynde they both fal into the ditch, nor that God will saue men by the woorde preached.

I hope wée bée not blinde, I trust we beleeue all well.

You are blinde and should haue a guide to leade ye the way to heauen, and to instruct yee in true godlinesse.

I will not learne the way to hea­uen of anie man, for I hope I haue as good a faith and as good a soule to Godwarde as the best learned of them all.

Whereby doe you try your good­nesse and your faith, any other way then by your owne blinde fantasie?

I meane well: I hurte no man: nor I thinke no man anye hurte: I loue God aboue all: and put my whole trust in him: what woulde yee haue more? they preache and teache, they can tell vs no more but this: when they haue all said what they can.

Nowe yee tumuble it vppe toge­ther in deede: I see well it is no small trouble to bring an ignoraunt man, for to see his folly.

I haue vttered my conscience: if I saye not well, I am readye for too learne.

What neede you learne when you knowe all afore hand euen as much as all the preachers can tell yee?

Yée take me at the woorst, the wi­sest of vs all may learne.

You saide that yee loue GOD aboue all: and you thinke no man no hurt, I take it your meaning is, that yee doe loue GOD with all your hearte, and your neigh­bour as your selfe, and more then this cannot be taught.

Wée should doe this, if wée doe it not, God forgiue vs.

This is all, is it not, what nee­deth [Page] any more teaching.

Let men doe this firste, and afterwarde, if they will learne more, let them.

Yee giue very graue aduise nowe, if there were any to follow it.

I haue no learning, but I thinke if men would doe this, it woulde not bee so euil as it is.

If euery thing whiche is spoken truely, be spoken wisely, then you haue vtte­red a verye wise saying, for I am sure there cannot be a truer. I beleeue indeede yee haue no learning, and I am sure as you saye, if men should doe that, there would not be so much euill among vs.

Yée thinke peraduenture that I speake like a foole, I woulde I were as wise as those which I heare say so.

Haue yee manye of these greate Wise men, which woulde haue men first ful­fill the ten Commaundements and then run to heare sermons.

All thinges are well spoken which are well taken: if they bee not wise I praye God make them wise: I haue nought to doe with them.

Yee are a playne man and haue skyll in outwarde thinges, will yee giue mee leaue to aske you a question in a matter wherein yee haue vnderstan­ding?

I thanke God I dare answeare to a question.

Are ye a carpenter or a mason?

I haue no skill that way.

Then if there be a great house of tymber and stone, to buylde, you can not build it?

If there were no better builders, then I, there woulde not bee so manye gaye houses.

If one shoulde say here is a ve­rie fayre house too bee buylded, it is no more but to laye a good foundation, too raise vp the walles and to finish the roofe, you knowe this all: therefore ye canne buyld it for ye know all.

I know this is all: but I can do ne­uer a whit of it, vnles a carpenter or a buyl­der doe teach me.

Ye say well, euen so to loue GOD with all our hearte, with all our mynde, and our neighbour as our selfe, [Page] is all, but wee knowe not howe to doe one iotte of it, vnlesse we be taught it out of gods worde.

God graunt wee may, for there bee ouer many which doe not regard it.

Let mee nowe aske you further, put case one shoulde saye vnto you, thus, you know all that is to bee done in buyl­ding an house: the foundation, the walles, and the roofe, doe these first, if yee will learne any more, yee may goe to some Car­penter.

There is no man so foolishe, to giue a man that counsell.

It is the Counsell you gaue, and the wise men which yee spake of, which woulde haue men first to do and afterwarde to learne.

Naye to doe that they knowe, and afterwarde to learne more: for there was neuer more knowledge and lesse dooing.

It is a verie pitifull case to see, howe the worlde is blinded, yee bring not this out of your owne bouget: for there bee very manie wise and iollye heades, whiche stande muche vppon this which you speake: they neuer vnderstoode that whiche Solo­mon [Page 9] saith, Prouerb, 1. cap. 22. ver. Yee foo­les be enemies vnto knowledge, or hate▪ know­ledge. Neither doe they knowe that whiche Saint Paule speaketh. 1, Cor. 8, 2. If any man thinke he knoweth any thing, hee knoweth nothing as yet, as hee ought to knowe. They neuer considered what the holy Ghoste saith in the latter ende of the fifte Chapter to the Hebrwes. ver. 12. Where he doth sharply re­prooue them, because they were children in vnderstanding. Neither doe they know that all well doing proceedeth from faith, & faith doth increase through knowledge: it gree­ueth me to stand vpon the matter, the saying is so buzzardly.

You would haue all men diuines. I thinke it is not for plowmē to meddle with the Scriptures.

You thinke so, but I pray you to whom speaketh the Lorde by the Properer Esay, when hee saith: My people perishe for want of knowledge. Vnto whom speaketh the Lorde by the Prophete Hoseas. Chap. [...]. 1. 2. When hee saith: there is no truth, there is no mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land, But swearing, lying, killing, thee [...]ing, cōmitting adulterie, &c. Vnto whome wrote Saint Paule, saying▪ Brethren bee children in [Page] malice, be not children in vnderstanding, & vnto whom wrote Saint Peter exhorting so much vnto knowledge?

I thinke knowledge doeth make men the woorse, for there bée no woorse men then many that be great scripture men: none wil deceiue a man sooner then they: they wil speake a man faire before his face, and bee readie behinde his backe for to cutte his throate.

It seemeth that you are no small man, there is a great deale of good stuffe in you if you would vtter it.

I tell yée my mind plainely, I will not flatter any man.

Ye need not tell me that, I know what maner of man ye be. Let vs come to your last words, ye did speake very lewdly, do yee thinke that knowledge doeth make men woorse?

I heare many say so: if I speake [...]ew [...] lye, there bee a number moe beside me, that doe so.

If knowledge make men the woorse, then is it a thing that is not good of it selfe, for that whiche is good can not make a man euill: is there any beast which will say, That to knowe GOD or the wil of [Page 10] God which is most holy and pure, can make [...] man the woorse? No these men are more then beastes. Againe, the more a man know­eth of God the woorse he should be, a very fil­thie blasphemie.

Moreouer you are greatly deceiued, whē ye thinke that all those whiche canne talke of tho Scriptures haue knowledge, for there be verye many carnall Pratlers, which seeme for to knowe much, and yet are as blinde as Buzzardes: these are naughty men, not be­cause they haue knowledge, but because they want knowledge.

I cannot tell, a man shall heare them saye a greate deale out of the By­ble.

No doubt a great deale more th [...] they vnderstand: now when such do not liue well, doth it followe that Gods worde ma­keth them woorse? nay yee be all blinde As­ses whiche cannot see, that because there is verye little true vnderstanding of Gods woorde among men, therefore there is so much vncleanesse: For as the holy Ghost saith Psal. 119. 9. Wherewithall shall a young man clense his way euen by taking heed ther­to according to thy word. Now when men doe not vnderstand the woorde, howe shall [Page] they take heede to their wayes, for to guyde them by the same. And when GOD sayth the woorde doeth cleanse vs, his meaning must needes bee, that all such as are not pur­ged thereby, are foule and filthie in his eyes.

Yée haue of your preachers, tr [...] pulpit men, and can saye very well: but their déedes are as euill as other mens, for who is more couetous then they: they are neuer con­tent vntill they haue heaped liuing vppon li­uing.

Such skilfull men as you, thinke if a man can preache or rather (as a num­ber doe) prattle and haue a rowling tongue and can make some shewe of learning, that by and by hee is a trime man, and hath great knowledge: when as in deede hee hath no true knowledge. For I count him to haue true knowledge, whiche hath so learned Christe, that hee is become a newe creature. Therefore Saint Iohn in the 3. Chapter 5. 6. verses, of his first Epistle speaking of Christe, saith: That he was made manifest to take a­way our sinnes, and in him is no sinne: Who­soeuer abideth in him sinneth not. Whosoe­uer sinneth hath not seene him nor knowne him. Likewise in the first booke of Samuel. [Page 11] cap. 2. vers. 12. It is saide by the sonnes of E­lye, that they were the sonnes of Beliall, and knewe not God: and yet they were instructed in the lawe, and taught the people. And for mine owne part I coulde neuer perceiue that any wicked man coulde preache worth a but­ton▪ I meane concerning, the cheefe thinge required in preaching, which is the declara­tion of the power of the spirite which ought for to appeare, to the conuersion of sinnefull men. For to lay open points of doctrine, they may doe it well.

It is not for vs that are simple men for to iudge who doth well, and who do­eth no [...].

Yes that it is, for Saint Iohn sai­eth, trie the spirites whether they be of God▪ Our Sauiour Christ sayeth, my sheepe heare my voyce a straunger they will not heare. Wherevpon it doeth followe that hee which knoweth not when pure doctrine and whole­some is vttered, is not as yet among the num­ber of the sheepe of Christ. For if he were in­dued with the spirit of God, he shoulde by the same spirite feele when wholesome doctrine is deliuered vnto him.

If a man bee learned, then hee shall bee able to iudge what is sayle rightly: [Page] otherwise hée cannot tell.

It is not learning alone whiche must iudge of sound preaching, for there be manie learned men which cannot iudge wel, as also there bee manie vnlearned, which are verie well able to discerne, all lieth in this point the doctrine is of God, & not of men, and therefore those doe feele it, and iudge rightly whether they be learned or vnlear­ned, whom God doth inwardly teach with his spirite: for this cause S. Paule. 1, Cor. 14. doth shewe that the worde of God is so to be layde open in the congregation, that if there come▪ in a man vnlearned or an infidell, hee may be reproued & iudged, & the secrets of his hearte made manifest. For if the word be not preached vnto the consciences of men, it goeth away like a dead sound. But we goe in­to many matters, I haue not forgotten your former wordes: but perhaps yee would bee loth to come to that againe.

I am not ashamed of any thing, which I said, and I hope I neede not.

No, your wares are so fine, ye neede not care who viewe them, you loue God a­boue all, and with all your heart.

That I doe, or els I were a beast, I woulde hee were hanged whiche doeth not▪ [Page 12] that.

Yee loue your neighbour as your selfe?

If I doe not I pray GOD for­giue mée, I am sure no man can accuse mée.

Then you looke by this meanes to come to heauen?

I hope if there be but thrée in all this country, goe to heauen I shall bée one of them, I meane so well.

Ye know the commandements of God▪ and fulfil them also do ye not?

I thanke God I knowe them: and will fulfill them as nigh as God shall giue me grace.

Doe ye breake none of them?

Wée breake them all of vs dayly & horuely▪ for there is no man which can kéepe them all.

You breake some of them, and keepe other some. Ye keepe the greatest, doe ye not▪ and breake the least?

I kéepe the greatest, and there­fore I hope God will beare with mée in the rest.

Which doe ye take for to be the greatest, that ye are so cleere in?

I am no théefe, nor murtherer, nor traitour: I pay euerye man his owne▪ I thinke this is Gods bidding.

Are there no greater then these?

I take him for an honest man which doth kéepe these, and he that doeth not I defie him.

Euen so wil I take you to be, when I knowe that you doe keepe them▪ But I mar­uell yee are so bolde for to bid defiance to so many.

Doe not you des [...]e them al? and all other euil doers?

If I should do so, you and I shoulde be together by the eares by and by.

Then belike yée count [...]ee to bee such an one: yée ought not to iudge.

A man may knowe the tree by the fruites: but let this passe: I pray ye tell me is not he which hath moe Gods then one, as euill as a murtherer?

I take him to bée woorse.

Then the first commaundement is greater, then those which you named?

If a man thinke there is any God▪ but one, he is very farre wide.

You haue none other Gods but one then?

It were pitie of my life if I shoulde not bee of that beliefe. If all the commaun­dementes were as easie to bee kept as this, we should doe well.

Then yee neuer brake the first Commaundement.

Neuer in all my lyfe: neither shal euer any make me to bée but of Gods beliefe: for they which beléeue there bee many Gods are not of a right minde.

Can you then keepe the greater and no [...] the lesse? I doe no [...] doubte but if a man can keepe the first hee can keepe all, for the first is as hard as any of the rest, although such skilfull Clearkes as you, count it to bee very easie.

Then it were an easie matter to kéepe them.

What if I proue vnto yee that you breake it, will you confesse your fol­lie?

I will neuer bée made beléeue that which I know is contrary.

[...]e [...] me aske ye this question▪ whe­ther that man▪ doth keepe this Commande­ment, which thinketh there is but one God▪ [Page] and yet giueth that honour and worship vnto other thinges, which he should giue vnto him alone.

I did neuer put any trust in ima­ges, nor I neuer thought they coulde doe mée any good.

I do not speake of that outward gi­uing away of Gods worship: but of an other which is inward in the minde.

I haue alwayes had God in my minde, and I trust I haue neuer woorship­ped any besides him.

Is not that a mans God which hee loueth best: & which hee doeth most delight in?

Looke what a man loueth best and taketh most delight in, I thinke hee maketh y ^• his god, because we ought to loue god best.

Doe yee not thinke that the thing which a man most setteth his minde vpon, & most seeketh after, is that which he most lo­ueth?

I suppose euery man looketh after that which he most loueth.

Then he which seeketh the world more then God, loueth the world more then God: and therefore in very deede maketh the world his God?

God forbid that any man shoulde make more account of this worlde, then of God, I hope fewe doe so.

You hope fewe doe so, but a man may easilie proue that youe doe so, and I am sure the most doe so.

I trust yée shall hardly prooue it by mée, although yée iudge so euill of mée.

Can a man seeke after God, or set his delight vpon God anie other waie, then by seeking after the knowledge and obedi­ence of Gods will, which he hath reuealed in his word? or can a man loue God, and not loue his worde?

Gods word is good, wee must loue that al of vs & be ruled by it, for it doth tell vs nothing but that which is good.

How slilie you wind out of the mat­ter I aske one thing which yee doe not aun­sweare: and that is whether a man can seeke God, and not seeke him in his worde?

Euery man cannot bee a Diuine, wée that bee vnlearned men are not for to meddle with so high matters.

Now ye speake in your kinde, we be unlearned men, we haue nought to doe with God, we may not meddle with him.

You take all thinges wrong, [Page] yée doe not heare the say so.

Doe I take yee wrong, doe ye not say so? tell me is not God as high a matter as his word?

God is aboue all.

Can we haue to doe with God, to serue him any way but by his worde?

The worde of GOD doeth tell by what wée are to doe.

Then it followeth when yee saye wee may not meddle with so high matters, that yee were euen as good for to say, wee haue nought to doe with GOD. Wee owe him no duetie of obedience, we need not care to know his will: because he is as high a mat­ter as his word.

You put in a greate deale more then I sayde, and take mee still at the woorst.

Naye you are so deepe in youre speeche, that yee vtter more in a woord, then a man can well lay open in an houres talke: Againe I take yee not at the worst, for make the best of it you can, and it must needes fol­low, that those which care not for the worde of God, care not for him, neither doe they de­light in him, or loue him whiche doe not de­light in him nor loue his worde.

[Page 15]Moreouer howe shall a man take delight for to knowe the woorde, but it will cause him for to seeke to knowe it, that which is a mans iewell hee will some times looke vppon it: but there are a number of yee which are in deede verie Atheistes, and set no [...] a strawe by the knowledge of Gods will: for let a man tell ye of any dutie which ye should be taught out of the holy scriptures, by and by, this is your aunsweare, those thinges are not for vs to meddle withall: it is not for vs to talke of suche pointes. But we are gone a great way from the beginning of this matter, whiche is, that where yee did affirme that yee loue God with all your hearte, and that yee haue none other Gods besides him: Now the con­clusion is proued, that yee loue him as much as an old shoe, and that in deede yee make the worlde your God, because ye seeke most after that.

Yee doe not vse me well in saying that I loue GOD no better then an olde shoe, I woulde yée should knowe I loue him as wel as the best of yée all, though indéede I cannot say so much.

Bee not angrie man, for it is but a small faulte, for a great sorte moe doe beare yee companie, ye goe not alone. But because [Page] ye make so great boast▪ I pray ye tell me this, ye haue seruants haue ye not?

I haue a poore housholde.

What doe you require of your seruant?

To obey my will and to doe that which I command him.

What if he care not so muche, as to knowe your will, but will saye: I will not meddle with so high matters, no­thyng regardyng to knowe your pleasure: will yee say he loueth yee, or hee is a good seruant?

I cannot say that he is a good ser­uant, for if he were he would not take skorn but be glad to heare my will.

Ye say right, but why doe ye not consider that, when God hath set downe his wil & you care not for to know it, that ye loue him as well and doe him as good seruice, as such a seruant should doe vnto you.

God helpe, if this which you saye hée true.

It is most true, not only that men make the world their GOD, because they seeke more after it then they doe after Gods kingdom, but also S. Paule calleth the Diuell the God of this world, as also in another [Page 16] place he sayth, there bee some whose God is their bellie.

God forbid that any man should take the diuell to bee GOD, or doe him such honour.

They are no small number which make him their God.

You may say so, but I could neuer come into that mans company yet, whiche would not vtterly defie him.

If I should professe great kindnes vnto you now, and in the meane time drawe my dagger and breake your pate, woulde yee beleeue I were your friend?

I pray God keepe mee from such friendes: which giue good wordes and doe e­uill deedes, I had rather they tolde me their hatred.

Then ye answere that we must not looke what men say, but what they doe.

They had better not speake well, then speake well and doe euill.

Likewise I answere you that we must not looke to mens woords, when they defie the Diuell, but to their deedes by which they obey him and doe his will: for when they defie him in their wordes, they honour him for God in their workes.

If there be any such, I pray GOD amende them, for that is the woorst which I wish them.

I coulde like your prayer well if it were not only for a fashion, as yee vse many such like. For when it commeth to the trial, you wil easily be found amōg the num­ber of such.

If yée thinke mee to bee suche an one, yee iudge woorse then euer any man did, I thank GOD I can bring manye to testi­fie that I am an honest man and alwayes haue beene, I will bee founde as good as your selfe, though yée finde so greate faulte with other, as though yee were not like other men.

I iudge nothing but that which is easie to see, in you and in a number more, and which I canne, and will proue to your face.

Yee are a stranger vnto mee, will yée iudge of mee, and knowe not what my woorkes are.

Hee whiche cannot spie yee, hath but a simple vnderstanding: I pray yee tell mee, such as doe the workes and will of the Diuell, are they not of the Diuell? Saint Iohn 1. Epistle 3. sayth, Hee that commit­teth [Page 17] euill is of the Diuell. Likewise our Sa­uiour Christ telleth the obstinate Iewes, Ioh. 8. Which boasted themselues to bee the chil­dren of Abraham, and the children of God, that they were of their father the Diuell, and why? because they did his will. Euen so you take part with such as are euill, and wicked. Shall ye aske a little question?

Yea, aske what yée will, and iudge what yee like best: but I will aunsweare as well as I can.

Doe ye not thinke that al whore­masters, Drunkardes, Dicers, Raylers, Swea­rers, and suche like, are the Diuels armie, as on the other side, such as professe gods word and liue godly, are his souldiers, and do fight vnder his banner?

They are well holpen vp which serue such a master.

Why are you so vnwise then as to serue him: for all those which take part with those wicked men, & raile vpon those which are godlie, doe fight vnder the same standerd, and seeke to vphold the kingdome of the Di­uell, labouring for to ouerthrow the Gospel, and to banish Gods word?

They are woorthie to haue their eares cut from their head, which rayle vppon [Page] honest men or seeke to slaunder them.

This is a common thing among all the packe of ye, if there be any man which hath a care to know God, and seeketh after his worde, & will not cōmit those beastly sins which ouer flow in all places, then you which cannot abide to haue Gods word set foorth, denise a number of lies and slaunders against them, calling them Puritanes, rascals, and ma­ny such like. On the contrary part, let a man be a common drunkarde, a Dicer, an igno­rat beast which hath no knowledge of God, a wretched worldling, or any kinde of suche person: he is an honest man: for they be those whom you woulde haue a man lose his eares for: he is now counted the honest man which liueth as the most doe.

There bee a number goe so farre they cannot tell what they may doe: they will not doe as their honest neighbours doe, they wilbe wiser then their betters: what shoulde they meddle with Gods woorde, it maketh [...]hembusie in checking euery man. It was ne­uer merry since men vnlearned haue medled with the scriptures.

I maruell how far you would go if a man shoulde followe ye, yee are like a puddle, which the more a man stirreth it, the more filthie mud ariseth: yee are like a sinke, where [Page 18] the more a man stirreth, the more is the stink.

What meane ye by that?

I mean that your heart is full of foule slinking & rotten matter, which floweth out at your mouth. I confesse that those men bee not to be allowed which meddle with that which they should not: but I know whom you meane, when ye say they goe so farr, that they know not what they may doe: ye speake of them which seek to know GOD, whom ye thinke to be halfe madde.

There be some of them which are not book learned, what should they doe otherwise then their fathers before them: I knew some of their fathers, honest men, and neuer trou­bled themselues that way.

I did know your mind wel enough: for al your spite is against those which learne out of Gods word to know their duety to­wards the lord: & because as S. Pet. saith, 1. Pe. 4. they do not run with ye to the same exces of riot, ye think it strange & blasphemy. Agayn, ye cannot abide to be admonished, when ye commit any naughty thing. Ye know not that God hath appoynted his word for all sortes of mē to be instructed in it throughly, for the holy Apostles exhort euery where vnto great knowledge in the worde.

Againe ye know not that which the Lorde [Page] cōmandeth in sundrie places, that we should admonishe, and reprooue one another, if any do amisse: & not as you blind obstinate men, which when a man doeth after a godlie man­ner admonish yee: hee is by and by a busie medler, what hath he to doe, he shall not an­swere for you. And because yee may not doe what lewdnes yee list, vncontrolled, yee say it was neuer merry since euery man might, read the scriptures. It is maruellous that men should so become beastes without all vnder­standing.

It would not gréeue me to bée re­prooued by those which are learned, but now euery Iacke wilbe medling.

If you be reproued iustly by Gods worde, then is it God which doth reproue, ye are not to looke vppon the man. But when ye call them Iackes, and giue them other re­proches, it is because yee are blinde, and can discerne nothing but that whiche is of this worlde: For if yee could see how great glo­rie the poorest true Christian is called vnto, to be the child of God, yee woulde not reuile those whom God honoureth.

They will be medling in smal mat­ters, if it were for great saults it were some­what, but a man may not be merrie nowe.

Beeyng vtterly blinde, and voide of grace, yee count those sinnes which are foule and grosse, for to bee small: swearing rayling, talking in your filthie ribaldty, sin­ging sowle and beastly songes, these and such like are your pety faultes: this is your my [...]th wh [...]n must not bee hindered: For it is death to yee to haue any godlinesse spoken of, if it be, ye cannot bee merry. This dunghill mirth is that which men complaine of to be mole­sted, and say it was happie in olde time, when men were not reproued for such things, now there be so many scripture men, that a man cannot tell what to say or what to doe.

There are none of yée all as ho­lie as yée woulde séeme for to be, but haue faultes, yée sée not your owne, but other mens.

Hee which doeth not repente and correct his own vitious nature and striue to obey God, is no good reproouer of others: But when yee say, men seeme to be holy and giue it as a matter of reproch, therein yee goe almost beyond the Diuell himselfe: for you see that I gainesaie yee, or els yee woulde not inure it, but yee would euen Powre out your stinking & rotten poyson like blasphemous and venemous beastes: ye would speake after [Page] this manner you that are so full of the spirite, you that are Saintes and such like. What are you diuelles, are yee of the flesh? no doubt yee are vntil God conuert ye. But we may see how diuelishly men are become wicked: when a man cannot make any appearance to be god­ly and holy, but it is reproched as though it were a shameful thing to be led by the spirite. For otherwise why do they so obiecte an ho­nest thing to liue after the fleshe, a shamefull matter to be guided by the spirite.

God helpe vs if none be good but such, I hope honest and quiet men shalbe sa­ued as well as they, although they cannot talke so well, nor runne not to heare Ser­mons.

Nay you would haue others in ber­ter case then they, for you iudge them that are zealous in the Gospel and woulde fainest of all other please God, to be the worst men, and the more carefull a man is to be holy to the Lorde, the more he is disdayned and mis­liked. Which doeth euidently shewe that such as you are led by the spirite of the Diuell. Yee leade me so from one matter to another, that wee are gone from something which ye vtte­red. I remember yee saide yee put your whole trust in God.

I sayd so, & so I say still: though I haue no learning, yet I trust I beleeue as well as any scripture man of them all.

Yee bragge very boldly, I pray ye tell me this, are yee sure ye shalbe saued?

No, nor you neyther, nor the best of yee all, wee muste commit that too God.

What is it that yee put all your whole trust in him for? Is it not this, that GOD hath promised vnto yee eternal life, and that yée beleeue he wil performe his pro­mise?

That hee doeth loue me and giueth me all thinges.

Are yee not sure that hee doth loue yee?

I hope he doth loue me: but I am not sure.

Doeth not the scripture saye that whosoeuer doth trust in him shalbe saued?

God sayth so indeede, and I be­leeue it is so.

You knowe doe yee not, that yee put your whole trust and beliefe in him?

I knowe I doe: and I hope I shall alwayes doe.

If God can not lie, when hee saith all that trust in him shall bee saued, and you knowe that yee put your whole trust in him, Wherefore doe yee not then knowe that yee shalbe saued?

That which God sayth, is true, for he cannot lie: I put my trust in none but in him: I hope to be saued, what would yée haue more? I will beléeue neuer a one of them all when they say they know they shal­be saued: I thinke they woulde make them selues Gods.

Naye suche as you make your selues Gods, when yee ioyne thinges so con­trary together and can make them agree: fire and water may lodge together in one bedde, at your inne, and agree well together: For they are no more contrary then that whiche yee affirme, when yee say God hath promi­sed that all which beleeue in him shall bee sa­ued, you are sure yee beleeue in him and that ye put all your whole trust in him & yet yee can not tell whether yee shall bee saued. But I can not greatly maruell at this, for yee knowe as well what faith is, as doeth a Goose.

I trust I knowe, and I meane well, God knoweth my meaning howsoeuer [Page 21] you take me.

Let mee aske yee this question, when a man praieth if hee doe not bee­leeue that whiche hee saieth, doeth hee well?

Wée must beléeue that which we speake when wee praye, or els it is nothing woorth.

When Christ teacheth vs too pray, and too call GOD our Father, ought we not for to knowe that he is our Fa­ther?

Wee ought for to knowe, that which GOD teacheth vs and to beleeue the same.

Must wee not beleeue it without doubting or wauering, as S. Iames sayth hee that doubteth is like vnto a waue of the Sea tossed with the winde, neither let that man thinke that he shall receiue any thing?

Wée must not doubt, for hée that doubteth is in a wrong beléefe, we must put all our trust in God.

Then when ye call GOD Father ye beleue that surely which ye speak, then are ye sure that he loueth yee, for a father doeth loue his childe, euen men which are euill doe giue good giftes vnto their children when [Page] they aske, because they loue thē, much more, the heauenly Father which is perfectly good doeth loue his children, that is, those whiche beleeue in him: then I reason in this wise, hee that beleeueth surely that GOD is his father, he is sure that GOD loueth him: hee that is sure god loueth him is sure of euerlasting life: therefore all those which pray aright, are sure they shalbe saued.

I pray God wee may call vppon him.

Tell mee further what ye thinke, was not Abraham sure he shoulde bee saued, likewise Dauid, Paul, and others?

Euerye man cannot bee like those. Can you saye yee are like vnto A­braham?

Doeth not the scripture say, that Abraham is the father of the faithfull, and that those are the children of God, whiche walke in the steppes of faithfull Abra­ham? I confesse in deede that euery one can­not attaine to so great a measure of fayth as those had: but yet wee must come to the same faith, because we haue the same GOD, the same couenant and promises, the same spirit is giuen vnto vs which beleeue, Saint [Page 22] Paule in the 4. chap. the Ephesians saith: there is one God, one faith, one baptisme. If there be but one, then ours must bee the same that theirs was.

Yea, but for al that it is presump­tion for men to say they knowe they shalbee saued.

I see that popish dung doth sticke stil between your teeth, when they teach men that it is presumption to be out of doubt.

What tell ye mee of the Pope, I care not for him, I woulde both hee and his Dung, were buried in the Dung­hill.

I knowe there be many which care not for the Pope, but yet beleeue muche of his doctrine: they bee those whiche wee call Athiests, of no religion, but looke whatsoeuer any prince doeth set forth, that they will pro­fesse.

I thinke that is good, ought not wée for to obey our Princes, and woulde yee haue vs to take vpon vs for to bee wiser then they and their Counsellers?

I did knowe yee were an A­thiest, setting vp menne in the place of [Page] God worse then a Turke.

Wherefore doe yée say so?

Tell me this, are wee for to obeye men if they commaunde that which is con­trary to that which God commaundeth?

I thinke not so.

Is there any mo then one trueth, or one religion, which is the right, and that which God commaundeth?

There can be but one truth, that is certaine.

Then when one Prince comman­deth one religion, another ariseth afterwarde and commaundeth the contrarie: Will yee without difference obey them both? is not this for to denie God? is not this for to bee worse then a Turke?

I am sure yée will not denie, but that wée must obey.

Hee whiche doeth disobeye the Prince, doeth disobey GOD, vnto his damnation, where the prince setteth foorth and mainteyneth Gods worde. But if there be a prince whiche maketh lawes against the lawes of God, wee must obey GOD rather then men. But there are many as I said before whiche in anye Princes dayes will speake thus, if religion shoulde turne (saye they) as [Page 23] God forbid it shoulde, but if it doe, it is our partes to be obedient. Are not these A­theistes, haue they not denied GOD, when they set men in his place? And looke no higher but what men commande. But yee haue drawne me away againe from the matter wee were in hand with, where ye sayd it is presumption for a man to say he know­eth he shalbe saued: I may aske ye a question I know ye will answere very boldely.

I knowe no cause why I shoulde not answere boldly.

Yee say true, for blinde bayarde is the boldest horse in the cart, although he bee almost drowned in one slowe yet hee will not sticke at another, he will through when all the rest wil straine curtesie. But let vs come to the matter whether is it greater presump­tion for to beleeue that God is true, or for to doubt of the certaintie of his promise? & whether doeth that man honoure GOD most which giueth credit to his word, or hee which doubteth whether he will perfourme the same?

It must néeds be graunted that he which beléeueth God of his word doeth wel, and he that doth not doth euill.

Yee say true, for if a Prince make an offer vnto some man, whō he fauoureth, and he should make aunsweare, I doubt of it, I scarce beleeue the performance of your pro­mise: would not the Prince thinke him selfe greatly dishonoured to haue it doubted, whether he be a man of his word? If he shou'd sweare for the performance of his promise, & the party not trust him, he would neuer put that vp, or beare such an iniury. Then it must needs follow that whē God hath bound him­selfe both by promise and by oth, as it is said Heb. cap. 6. ver. 17. How great presumption is it not for to beleeue him? it is all one as too thinke God may lie, or that he may bee for­sworne, which is horrible blasphemy.

I graunt this is true, if God should tell any man that he should be saued, if he did not then beleeue him. But where is that man which can say God euer tolde him so? Doth he tel any one man so?

Yea that he doth, for that which he sendeth vnto al in generall, he sēdeth vnto euery one in particular: for is it not all one, if a man be condemned for treason, to haue his pardon sēt him being but one man alone, or hauing a great sort mo condēned vnto death with him, a general pardon is sent fo [...] thē all▪

That is al one, for he hath his part in it.

Euen so is it betweene God and vs, we were all condemned, he hath sent a ge­nerall pardon to as many as beleeue the same, that whosoeuer trusteth in Christ hee shalbee saued. God therefore hath tolde some men, that is, such as beleeue that they shalbe saued, and such as doubt of his promise and his oth they shalbe damned. Therefore is it al one in those which beleeue, as if he had sent a parti­cular message vnto them.

I neuer heard so much in all my life before.

I beleeue so▪ For S. R. can no great skill in this geare: he can whippe ouer a new payre of cardes nimbly, and tyrle a dye: but he should be the messenger of the Lorde of hostes, euen as the Prophete saith, his lips▪ shoulde keepe knowledge, and men shoulde enquire at his mouth, hee▪ shoulde open all the Counsel of God vnto the people, and not let them run headlong as they doe vnto de­struction. He should instruct them in all the doctrine of faith, and repentance, & so guyde them in the feare of God.

Al men cannot doe alike, we must accept their good will, euery man cannot bee a Preacher.

Because ye care not for see­king [Page] after eternall life, yee are content to ac­cept of nothing: and because yee loue your lustes, and hate to be refourmed, yee abhorre the vse of preaching, and as poore a man as yee are, ye would not for xl. shillings ye had a Preacher among you.

Yée euer take me at the woorst, I allowe preaching▪ it is good nowe and then, but some can kéepe no measure nor tel when they haue done: Agayne they bee ouer hott and seuere, and preache damnation to the people. Likewise they meddle with suche matters as they néede not, as Election and Predestination, what shoulde suche matters be spoken of among the people, they make men woorse?

I thinke the Diuell is the cun­ningest schoolemaster in the worlde. Other schoolemasters cannot bring grosse heades and dullards to any passe, but content them­selues with the finer wits, for to trayne them vp in learning: but a man can almost light vppon none of his schollers, bee they neuer suche blockheads, but they haue their lesson at their fingers ends.

I thanke yée Sir for your good woorde: But I neuer learned it of the Di­uell, nor neuer was any of his schollers: I [Page 2] trust I haue as little to doe with him as you or any other.

Where did yee learne it then, if not of the Diuell?

I haue heard honest men speake it, and some Preachers preach it.

Then I perceiue ye learned it not of the Diuel himselfe, but at the mouth of some of his Vshers.

Wherefore doe y [...]e call them the Deuilles U [...]hers? the haue skill in the worde of God, and ought to knowe what they saie.

I call them so because they teach the precepts of the Diuell. And although they haue some knowledge in the woorde, yet they neuer learned these thinges whiche you speake out of the word.

Did the Diuell teach them berause they haue it not in Gods word?

It is the doctrine of the Diuell, because it is against Gods word. For GOD neuer teacheth▪ men those thinges whiche are contrary to the doctrine which he hath set downe in his worde.

I thinke ye will hardly pro [...] ▪ these thinges for too bee against Gods worde.

I woulde you coulde as easilye proue yourselfe to bee a good man: for then we should soone agree.

You are not for to iudge of mee no more then I am for to iudge of you: but there be many now a dayes which will take vppon them for to iudge men: they doe not learne that out of Gods woorde, I am sure.

If I see a man drunken, or heare him sweare or raile and such like, and say, he is a naughty man, doe I iudge: shall I ac­count him a good man, when I see hee is naught?

When a man doth see those naugh­ty vices, he may boldely say that such men are naught.

In like maner when a man hea­reth one which holdeth euill and abhomi­nable opinions against the truth, he may as boldely say he is naught: because they haue giuen iudgement of them selues, and haue shewed what they are. Nay they be suche as you whiche take vppon yee for to iudge: for let a man be more carefull then your selues for to serue GOD: and by and by you will enter into the secrets of his heart, which God onely doth know, and ye will not [Page 26] sticke for to pronounce that he is an hypo­crite. In the meane time, let a man tell you that ye are wicked, when he doth see your wickednesse, ye aunswere, ye ought not to iudge: but I will come for to proue that the thinges which yee speake against preaching, are verie diuelishe and wicked. Ye said thus, I allowe preaching, it is good now and then, but some can keepe no measure, nor will ne­uer haue done.

I sayd so in deede, I will not denie my worde, and I thinke so still. For a man may haue ouermuch of any thing, & ynough is as good as a feast.

A very little is ynough for you, if the Preacher doe passe his houre but a little, your buttokes beginne for to ake, and ye wishe in your hearte that the Pulpit would fall.

Ye may gesse twise before yee gesse so right.

Nay I canne gesse somewhat neere in suche a man as yee are: but I praye yee did yee neuer sitte at Cardes all night?

Yes that I haue, and thought it but a short night too.

The cause why yee thinke an [Page] houre so long at a Sermon, & a whole night so short at Cardes, is, that ye delight in the one and care not for the other: the carding is ioyned with much sinne and seruice of the Deuill, the other is for to bring vs vnto the knowledge and feare of GOD: Marke nowe howe much by your owne confession ye loue the Diuell more then GOD? for him doe ye loue most, whom ye delight to serue most.

Can wee not serue God without so much preaching? I see they are neuer the better which runne most after sermons, they talke much, but I woulde haue them leaue talking and fall to doing, wee sée no do­ing but men are still euen as euill as bee­fore.

Can your seruant serue you vnlesse he know your will?

No that hée cannot.

No more can you serue GOD without the knowledge of his will, and as for the rest of your speech, when ye crie out against preaching of Gods woorde, that it maketh men neuer the better, and ye would haue them leaue talking, and fall to doing: I confesse there be a number which are coun­terfeite professors which liue not according [Page 27] to the Gospell, and most commonly they be such, as haue but a little smacke of the Go­spel, and yet thinke they know much, because they want the meanes, hauing the worde ei­ther seldome or loosely preached. But I will confute your vanitie another waye in this point, tell me, are not these your sayinges? where the woorde is sincerely preached▪ if a­ny seeke to frame their liues after the same, when they doe eyther by woorde reprooue your euill wayes, or by deede refuse your lewde maners: These men are full of the Spi­rite, these are precise fellowes, these are ho­lie Saintes, these thinke them selues Gods fel­lowes: these thinke them selues better then all other men.

We say so in deede, there is good cause why.

Then I pray ye tell me howe these two thinges can hang together, when ye saie there is no amendement of life, and yet yee complaine that they be ouer full of the spirit, ouer precise, and such like. May not euery man see, that ye pronounce thinges directly contrarie the one to the other? that there is no amendment, and yet in effect, ye say, they a­mende ouer▪ fast.

Wee doe not saye that any doe a­mende [Page] ouer fast.

When ye say they are ouer holy, and what shoulde men be so curious and full of the spirite, what is this but to say, that they amende ouer fast? Is not this to amend when men by due instruction out of Gods woorde come to repentaunce of their former vices? and haue a care to keepe them selues from the spottes of the rotten fleshe and filthie worlde. Do not you and such as you are after a sort blaspheme, when yee reproche men with the spirite? Is it a shame for a man nowe a dayes for to haue anye thing to doe with the spirite of God? While a man doeth walke after the fleshe in the lustes of vncleannesse, he is an honest man: But so soone as hee is indued with any grace, ye wonder at him as crowes do at an owle, yee are readie to floute and mocke him out of his skinne. And as if the spirite of GOD were a spirite of disho­nour and shame, yee mocke men with him. Wee may wonder at the longe patience of GOD, which hath thus many yeeres suffered himselfe to be dishonoured, his spirite reui­led, his woorde despised, and hath not been reuenged, but no doubt the longer hee hath [...]aried, the heauier will the stroke be.

Men are men, what shoulde they [Page 28] make themselues more holy then they be?

If ye meane one way ye say right, for it is a naughtie vice for men to seeme to be holy when they are not, or to seeme to be more holy then they be: but if yee meane another way (as I thinke ye doe) that because men are sinfull by nature, why shoulde they seeke for to be better, then doe ye speake ve­rie wickedly. For God calleth men to repen­tance, to turne from their euill wayes: God guideth his seruants at all times with his spirite, therfore S. paule sayth Rom. 8. There Is no condemnation nowe to those whiche are in Christ Iesus, which walke not after the fleshe, but after the spirite. And againe in the same chapter, As many as are led by the spirite of God, are the sonnes of God. Hee sayth that if wee liue after the fleshe, we shall dye: in other places he doth shewe, whiche are the workes of the spirite, and whiche are the workes of the fleshe: And you like blasphemous wretches allowe those whiche walke after the flesh, and condemne those which are led by the spirite.

Are none indued with Gods Spirite, but such as runne to heare prea­ching?

Whosoeuer hath the spirite of [Page] God, can not but delight in the woorde of God, whiche the same spirite hath vttered: The Lorde saith, hee which is of God, hea­reth Gods worde: The happie man is hee (as wee haue in the 1. Psalme) whiche hath his delight in the lawe of the Lorde, and which doeth meditate in the same day and night? We haue in the psalme 112. Blessed is the man which feareth the Lorde, hee hath great delight in his commaundements.

Moreouer, the spirite of GOD doeth not guide men without the woorde. And there­fore it is saide Psalme 119. Thy woorde is a lanterne vnto my feete, and a light vnto my pathes. S Peter sayth, I. Epist. 1. Hee hath bee­gotten vs againe not of mortall but of im­mortall seede, which he affirmeth to bee the worde of God that indureth for euer. Like­wise S. Iames saith cap. 1. of his owne good will begat hee vs, by the woord of trueth. See­ing therfore that the holy Ghost doth guide men by the worde, it followeth that all those which set light by the woorde, are led, not with the spirite of God, but with the spirite of the Diuell. I might alleadge a number of te­stimonies of Scripture to prooue that such as you which make so small accompt of the sa­cred woorde of God, as there be a number, [Page 29] yea the greatest number whiche doe not set so muche by it as they doe by an olde shoe, are despicers of God, worse then brute beastes.

Cannot men be lead by Gods spi­rit and serue God, vnlesse they knowe the Scriptures▪ GOD forbidde that all those shoulde bee awry which are not learned: is it not enough for plaine countrie men, plow men, taylours, and suche other, for to haue their ten commaundementes, the Lordes prayer, and the beliefe: I thinke these may suffice vs, what shoulde wee meddle further: I knowe men whiche are no scrip­ture men, whiche serue GOD as well as the best of them all. Will yee condemne such?

I sayde before that men can not be lead by Gods spirite, and refuse to knowe the Scriptures: Neyther can they truelie serue him vntill suche time as they knowe howe for to serue him: for GOD teacheth howe he will be serued, and hee teacheth on­lie in his worde: his will is that we shal learne to know him by his worde. And therefore he hath appointed the Ministerie of the woorde to continue for euer in his Church, that by it men may be built vp in Christe, as yee may [Page] reade Ephe. 4. For this cause S. Paule▪ ex­horteth Tymothie to bee instant in teaching in season & out of season: he trauelled him­selfe night and daie, he maketh a verie fer [...]e [...] prayer to God continuallie for the Collos­sians, that they might bee fulfilled with the knowledge of his will, in all wisdome and spirituall vnderstanding. Collos. ver. 9. For this cause hee exhorteth the Christians to bee children in malice, but not to bee children in vnderstanding. The holy Ghost doth sharpely reprooue the Hebrewes as wee may see, in the latter end of the 5. chap. of that Epistle: because they were yet children to be taught, when for the time they shoulde haue been teachers. Againe there is a nota­ble sentence in the beginning of the seconde chap. of the prouerbs, where a man may playnlie prooue, that none can come to the feare of god, but such as doe earnestlie ende­uour for to knowe God. The wordes be these. My sonne, if thou receiue my wordes, & hide my commaundements with thee, to incline thine eares to wisdome, and to bow thy heart to vnderstanding: if thou call for vnderstan­ding, and vtter thy voyce for knowledge: if thou seeke her as siluer, and digge for her as for hidde treasures: Then shalt thou vnder­stande [Page 30] the feare of the Lorde and finde the knoweledge of God. If a man doe not re­ceiue the woorde and commandementes of God vttered by his Ministers, if he doe not keepe and lay them vp, if he doe not cry and call vpon God for vnderstanding, if hee doe not incline his eares & bende his heart there­to, if he doe not searche and digge after her as men doe for treasures: he shall not come to the knowledge of the feare of God.

All men cannot come to these things which you speake of.

All men which will please GOD must come thus farre, that can saye with the Prophete Dauid in the 119. Psalme. I haue hidden thy worde in my heart▪ that I might not sinne against thee. Also in the same place when hee hath asked the que­stion. Wherewithall a younge man shall cleanse his wayes, hee aunswereth, by taking heede there to according to thy worde: where by it is most euident, that all those are vnpure in their waies, and sinne greeuously against God, which haue not layde vp his woorde in their heartes, nor cleansed their wayes by the same.

[Page]But let vs come to some other of your say­ings, which I am greeued for to heare.

Yee neede not to be greeued, for I doe not hurt ye.

I can not but bee greeued to see your grosse and palpable blindnesse: and I am the more greeued when I remember that many which are otherwise verie wise men vse muche your doltishe sayinges, and thinke they speake very wisely. They say what should vnlearned men meddle further then to say their ten commaundements, the Lords prai­er, and the articles of the faith. And you are of the same minde.

I trust to doe as well with these, as other with all their learning.

Doe yee thinke that yee shall doe well euen because ye can say them: although yee do not vnderstande them?

Nay if a man say them, and doe not vnderstand them, hee is little the better. I knowe not why I shoulde not vnderstande them, so long as God hath giuen mee my fiue wittes: I am no childe, nor I am no foole.

In deede hee that hath one good wit, is no foole, muche lesse are you whiche haue fiue: you must needes knowe all and [Page 31] more: For I thinke ye meane, that ye are able by reason to vnderstand those things.

I trust I vnderstand by that rea­son which God hath giuen me, so much as is sufficient: I can tell when I doe well, and I can tell when I doe euill.

I perceiue you are a fre will man, one of those which thinke by naturall vn­derstanding too conceiue the mysteries of GOD: And yee doe in deede vnderstand so much as is sufficient: not for to saue ye, but as S. Paule sayth Rom. 1. to make ye with­out excuse: & so to condemne ye. You know some sinnes: and likewise ye can tell some thinges which are good, but ye can neuer tell any thing which ye haue done that is good.

I trust GOD will bée more fauourable then you are: and that hée will not forgette the good déedes which I haue done.

A very little box I warrant you will holde all your deedes, if ye haue no moe olde deedes then you haue good deedes.

Are not these good deedes, when a man doth giue to the poore, and is readie to doe his neighbour a good turne? when a man [Page] doth liue honestly, serue God, and thinke no man any harme.

Now ye speake of cost: now ye are hit into your right vaine againe, euen where ye would be, to boast of those thinges which ye haue not: for none of all those or such like are good in you, because they doe not proceed of faith: for S. Paul saith Rom. 14. ver. 23. Whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne.

How can yee prooue that mine are not of fayth?

Faith is by hearing, and hearing by the word Rom. 10. 17. where a man de­spiseth the worde, there can be no faith: be­cause faith is grounded vpon the worde, and doth not beleeue thinges conttarye vnto the woorde. Moreouer, they be not your fiue wittes, (as you terme them) which can make ye able for to vnderstande the mysteries of Gods worde. For they cannot be vnderstood as Saint Paule teacheth. 1. Corinth. 2. 11. Vn­lesse God reueale them by his spirite: for e­uen the wicked which seeme to knowe them, doe not know them aright. But let vs come for to see how well ye doe vnderstand the ten commaundements. Do ye not looke to come to heauen, by doing of them?

I doe them as nigh as God will [Page 32] giue me grace, I trust God will not require more at my hands then I am able for to doe: I am as he made me? if he had made mee a­ble for to do better I shoulde do more.

Now ye are in a deepe peece of diuinity, ye thinke this is so equall which yee vtter now, that all the Doctors in the world are not able for to controllye. Ye say ye do what ye can, more God cannot require at your handes: you meane as if one shoulde make this comparison: a father canne re­quire no more of his child then his strength wil serue, a Prince can commaund his sub­iect no impossible thing: if a father shoulde whippe his childe for not doing that which he is not able, it were crueltie: if a Prince should put a subiect to death for not doyng his commaundement in a matter vponssi­ble, it were tyranny: the father will say. My child did his good will I can aske no more: The Prince will say he hath done that which a man might, and further I cannot require. Likewise you thinke GOD shoulde deale straightly with ye, if he shoulde condemne ye for breaking the Lawe, which ye are not able to obserue: & that he cannot looke for more at your handes then he hath made yee [Page] able to perfourme.

I meane so in déede, flesh is fr [...]ile. wée cannot doe all things.

I pray ye tell me, doe yee thinke any shall goe to hell and be damned?

The Scripture saith there shall, doth it not?

Wherefore doe ye thinke they shalbe damned?

For breaking Gods commaunde­ments.

Are they able for too keepe them?

No man is able for to keepe them.

Shall they then be damned for e­uer in hell fire, for breaking those laws which they were not able to keepe?

Not if they had done their good will: For then they coulde not bee bla­med.

Howe the Diuel hath muffled you too keepe yee from seeyng the daun­ger of eternall damnation which ye are in: haue yee neuer hearde that whiche GOD sayth by Moses, which S. Paule citeth in the 3. Chap. to the Galath. Cursed is euery one whiche abydeth not in all thinges which are writ­ten [Page 33] in the booke of the law for to doe them: by which yee may see that God with his own mouth doth lay his curse (which is dānatiō) vppon euery one which doth breake neuer so litle of the law.

GOD is mercifull, hee is not so senere as you woulde make him for to bee.

Doe ye not thinke that he is a iust and a true God?

I must needes thinke so.

Do ye thinke that when he hath vttered his iustice, that he can by his mercy goe from it; and so be sound vn true? Nay there bee many of yee which in all thinges crie God is mercifull, GOD is mercifull, which neuer consider with what conditions GOD hath promised mercy, neyther how it may stand with his iustice and trueth: ye thinke GOD offereth mercy without ex­ception.

If God bee not mercifull wee are but in an euill case.

He is a most mercifull and grati­ous God, but yet not vnto any, but suche as he hath promised mercy. Howe many thou­sandd there be, which are caried headlong to hell with this error, which not knowing [Page] the iustice and truth of GOD, doe blesse them selues where God hath accursed them. For these thinges which you haue now v [...]te­red, are euen of the principall reasons which Satan doth seduce men withall; and holde them from the truth. They thinke thus, I do what I can, God hath made me able to doe no better, God is mercifull, they know not this, that God made vs able in our first crea­tion to keepe and obey his will wholly, and that although we can now keepe no part of it, yet he may iustly accurse and condemne vs vnto eternall fire, for transgressing any part of it: ye are not as he made ye, and ther­fore ye deceiue your selfe when yee thinke that he requireth no more at your handes, then ye are now able for to doe. Ye deceiue your selfe, when ye think that GOD can be mercifull vnto ye, and you liue without re­pentance.

You woulde make a man dispaire, if ye would put him out of hope in the mer­cie of God.

I would not bring ye out of hope in the mercy of God, but I would bring ye ou [...] of your vaine hope, which is not that which wil saue ye, but doth harden and blind ye vnto damnation.

How can a mans hope and fayth hi God, ha [...]en and blinde him vnto damna­tion? Now a dayes there is nothing among many of ye but damnation, damnation. It is well that God hath not giuen you power for to condemne [...].

If it were a true fayth, it must needes [...] them, but being a faith which is blinde, it blindeth those which haue it, and hard [...]h then [...]in their sinnes, and keepeth them from the seeking after the knowledge of Gods will, and stayeth them from retur­ning home vnto God by true repentance, be­cause it breadeth this in the hearts of men, to thinke and to say, we are welynough, we [...] God [...] [...], we beleeue as well as the best of them all: when as if they were ridd [...] out of this notable snare of the. Deuil, and brought for to see the wrath of GOD bent against them, they woulde then be glad with feare and trembling to seeke after the Lorde in his woorde, and to bee afraide to committe those thinges whiche might displease him. Where as nowe a man may [...] crye vntill he rende▪ his throate a­g [...] t [...]ir contempt of the Lordes word, and agaynst their fowle sinnes, before hee i [...] an mooue them at all: and why? be­cause [Page] the deuill hath gotten them within this fortresse: GOD is merciful, God is merci­ful. And for your other foolish words, that there is now nothing but damnation dam­nation: Do ye thinke that men are euer, the sooner cast into damnation; because they are told of the great danger thereof?

I pray ye [...] let me see what good can come thereof.

If I shoulde mee [...]e ye by the way and perceiue that yee were going into the way where ye shoulde light among theeues, which would murther yee: which were most profitable for you, if I should tell yee, thus, ye bee well, yee be well, or to shewe yee that yee bee in daunger of your life, if yee passe that way?

That were a wicked part for to let a man goe where he shoulde loose his life and not for to tell him.

Wherefore doe yee not see then that those which doe shew ye the daunger of damnation doe it for your profit, as well as they which teach ye to auoyde some out­warde daunger. If a man tell ye thus, goe not that way, ye wil be robbed, ye wil be killed, doth it follow that he will robbe or kill ye? because ye say, men now vtter damnation▪ [Page 35] and that it is well they haue not power too condemne men. And know this for certain­tie, that if God in his woorde doe threaten damnation, and the preacher doe not shewe it to the people, and teach them howe to a­uoide the same, their blood shall be required at his hande. But let vs come backe againe to the former matter to see howe well yee vn­derstand your x commaundements. I would knowe this of yee, whether it be good for men to knowe the lawe, seeing it doeth no­thing but curse and condemne vs: if there were no lawe, there coulde be no sinne. I speake both of the lawe of nature, and of the lawe written, and if there were no sinne, there coulde bee no condemnation: For this cause the lawe is called the ministerie of death and condemnation, and it is called the letter which killeth 2. Corinth. 3. Seeing it doeth woorke all this, what profite can it bring for to know it, or why should it be preached?

I pray ye tell me you, for I am vn­learned, and you are learned. If it bee as you say, I thinke it were good not to preach it: if it doe condemne vs.

What a shame is it that a man of your age shoulde haue so little skill, as not to knowe to what purpose the lawe serueth, It is [Page] a token ye vnderstande your x. commaunde­ments well. I will tell yee, when a man knowe­eth the lawe, it doeth bring him to see that he is altogether corrupted with sinne, both in bodie and soule, that he is vnder▪ Gods hea­uie indignation and [...] ▪ and that in him­selfe there is no helpe at all, it casteth him into feare and terrour of Gods iudgementes, and so inforceth him to seeke for remedie in Christe, whom before he did not greatly seeke after▪ For looke how a man which doth not thinke himselfe sicke nor in daunger of sicknesse careth not for a Phisition: so he which doeth not knowe his damnable estate by the lawe, careth not for Christe: This is the cause why Christ sayeth: The whole neede not the Phisition, but the sicke, I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repen­taunce▪ Therefore to such as haue wounded consciences, the Gospel is sweete and com­fortable; and Christe in the latter ende of the eleuenth Chapter of S. Matthew, calleth such vnto him, saying: Come vnto mee all yee which trauell and bee heauie loden, and I will refreshe yee. But such as haue no feeling of their sinnes, or whiche are blinded and hardened, yee shall perceiue small ioye and delight in them for to heare the worde prea­ched: [Page 36] they had rather be at Bearebayting.

Ye say well, I would I coulde re­member your wordes.

There be many which will seeme to be desirous for to learne, but a man shall see, they continue euen as carelesse as bee­fore: But I will goe on with this matter. The Scripture saith, that a sorowfull spirite is a sacrifice to God: and that God doeth not despise the humble and contrite heart: But men are afraide to be brought to the knowe­ledge and feeling of their sinnes for feare as they say, least they shoulde be driuen into dispaire: as though that were a safe prote­ction for them for a time to▪ be in a senselesse securitie: and as though they were in the bet­ter case, because they make no conscience of their sinnes. Whereas indeede those whiche are pricked and wounded with their sinnes, are in the way to repentance, when the other are farre off.

I coulde like your wor [...]es the bet­ter, but that ye would haue men not to trust to their fayth: is it not good to beleeue well?

There is nothing good in men, vnlesse they beleeue well: and wee can not truste too muche vnto sayth: but you doe not vnderstande what faith is. Tell [Page] me this, doth faith beleeue according as God setteth downe, and speaketh in his worde, or doth it beleeue contrary to that which God vttereth?

It doeth not beleeue contrarye too that which God vttereth.

Let vs see then, when God set­teth downe and sheweth which are the works of the flesh, and threatneth damnation vnto all those which walke in them: when God setteth downe that the de [...]pisers of his word shalbe condemned: and yet men which are defiled with the filthinesse of the fleshe, and walke after their corrupt lustes do boldely bragge that they beleeue to be saued: & set­ting naught by Gods▪ worde, say they trust in God: is this faith? God affirmeth one thing, and yet they beleeue the contrary: but see the blindnesse of men now a dayes, when they heare vaine and brutish men boast of their faith, yee doe well say they, to haue a good beliefe, when as in deede it is no more but a proud presumption, wherewith God is highly displeased, because by it they woulde make him a Lyar. When the sonne of man commeth, shall he finde fayth in earth? If this be faith, he shall finde great plentie of it eue­ry where. For the Idolater, the swearer, the [Page 37] drunkard, the proude, the Adulterer, are as full of faith as they can be thrust. For euery one of these doeth bragge that hee hath as good a faith to God as he whiche is the most holy of all.

These may repent and bee saue [...], or else God for bid.

I doe not speake what God is a­ble to doe in calling as hee doeth call some such vnto repentaunce: but what they haue in them presently. But I will see a little further howe great skill you haue in the law▪ of God, because ye neede so litle preaching▪ What say ye vnto the second cōmandement, is it lawful for a man to worship idol [...]?

I thanke God I do not worship a­ny, for that is [...]atly forbidden.

What say ye for the making of a­ny image or picture of god, do ye thinke that is [...] ▪

For making it is no matter▪ so that a man haue no confidenee in them.

Howe do ye then vnderstande the wordes of the commaundement, which say, Thou sha [...] not make to thy selfe any grauen image, &c.

He [...]aneth that wée shoulde not make anye gra [...]en Image [...] [Page] worship it.

That is your owne addition▪ for there is no suche exception expressed, ney­ther can the order of the commaundement beare it: for he doth not say, Thou shalt not make to the intent to worship, but thou shalt neither make not worship.

If yee take it so, then why are Paynter allowed to make any picture▪ how is it lawfull to haue▪ the image of the Prince in coyne?

I will shewe yee your errour, you doe not vnderstande that the lawe was deui­ded into two Tables and that in the first Ta­ble, which hath 4. commaundementes, there is nothing commaunded or forbidden, but that which respecteth immediatly the woor­shippe and honour of God, hee medleth not with any ciuill or pollitike matter▪ hee doth absolutely forbid to make as I may [...] it any diuine image, any similitude for to re­present God, or to bee like him: because as the scripture sheweth, there can no likenesse or similitude be made of God. For he [...] spirite of glorie▪ infinite, incomprehensible, Which dwelleth in light, which none canne come vnto: and therefore ye may reade in the Epistle to the Rom. cap. 1. how horrible a sin [Page 38] it was to set vp any image or liknesse of God: therfore the pictures of the trinitie and suche like are very abhominable. But to let this passe, what say ye for the worshipping of thē: whether is it idolatrie, or not, if a man meane to woorship God by the image, and not the image it selfe?

How can that be idolatrie▪ when a man [...] worshippe none but God, hee knoweth that the image cannot helpe him.

Then your meaning is, that, vn­lesse a man do either worship the very image it selfe▪ or else some false God in the image that it is no idolatrie?

I see no reason to the contrarye: and I thanke GOD I neuer was so [...]o [...] lis [...] as to take a blocke or a stone for to bee God.

Then yee thinke your selfe cle [...]t [...] in this commaundement, yee were neuer, a­ny idolater: ye neuer kneeled or played [...] any idoll?

I haue kneeled before them▪ and prayed before them, but I neuer tooke them to be God, neither did I pray vnto any▪ saue vnto the Lord God. I trust God will [...] charge me to b [...]e an idolater.

All you Athiestes which haue no knowledge of God, are crammed as full of popishe drosse as ye can holde, sauing that ye will not abide by it, but goe with the lawes of princes, afraide to loose the world▪ because ye haue made the world your God.

I defie poperie as much as the best of ye all.

Euen as muche as yee defie the de­uel, whome yee serue dayly. For ye vse popishe reasons to excuse your falling from God by Idolatrie, and whereby a man may easily see that you [...]re readye vnto it againe if time ser­ued.

I see I muste let yee alone to iudge what ye lust.

Nay yee vse the verie popishe rea­sons: whereby they woulde prooue when we charge them with the breache of this com­maundement, that they doe not committe Idolatrie: for say they, when the Scripture doeth condemne that sinne, it is meant of such as worship fained Gods, as the heathen men did, or such as do worship the image it selfe, and take it for to be God. But I will deale with ye by Gods woord. What doe y [...]e suppose of the children of Israel, when they came to Aaron, to haue him make them [Page 39] Gods to goe before them, when Moses tari­ed so long in the moūt: did they commit this great sinne of Idolatry?

They did commit idolatrie, and the booke saith they were destroyed, a great num­ber of them.

What? was their intent to wor­ship any besides the true God?

That it was, for they desired Aa­ron for to make them Gods.

What thinke ye they tooke Aa­ron for to be, a man, or a God?

That is a question in deede: howe could they thinke him to be a God?

Did they thinke that Aaron being but a man had power for to make a God?

If they thought so, they were but fooles.

And if you thinke they thought so, ye shall prooue no great wise man. For which way can a man perswade any, that a man can make a God? Or could they become more brutishe then a calfe, for to beleeue that the car [...]inges of golde turned into the similitude of a calfe, were nowe become GOD? No my friend it is very playne, that they meant no more but an image of God [Page] and that which should represent God, and put them in minde of him ye must not think they were so foolish, although they were very foolish as the holy Ghost in one psal. chargeth them, that they turned their glory into the similitude of a calfe whiche eateth hay: This then is plaine enough, that they, meant not for to worship the golden calfe it selfe, but God in the Calfe. Let vs see then, did they meane for to worship any other by the calfe, besides the true God?

It seemeth they did, or els why should they say Gods, for there is but one God.

Now ye are light vpon a very poore shift: for we may as well say: This is thy God O Israel, or make vs a God to go be­fore vs. For the Scripture it selfe, in the He­brew tongue, although it teach that there is but one God, yet speaketh of him in the plu­ral number, and saith Gods, for excellencie or dignities sake, as we see Princes here in the world when any of them speaketh, he doth not say, I, but we, not my person, but our person. For the phrase of the Scripture, I might alleadge diuers places, but you can­not vnderstande, but in your owne tongue [...] neuerthelesse I will cite one it is in the Pla [...] Elohim Shophetim Hu: God is the iudge [...] [Page 40] but the words are Gods, he is iudge.

Can you prooue that they meant to worship none but the true God?

It is easie to be proued, both by the words of the people themselues, when they say, these be thy Gods O Israel, which brought thee out of the lande of Egypt: they meant not to change their GOD which brought them out from Pharao, and ledde them through the red Sea: neither did they thinke that the calfe which Aaron hadd made, was he which deuided the Sea, and drowned Pharao with his host, but they tooke it for an image of that God, and not of any feyned God, and also by the woordes of Aaron, when he sayth. To morrowe shalbe a feast to Iehouah, which name was neuer giuen to any, but to the God of hea­uen, at the least in those dayes, the God of Israel had that name peculier vnto himselfe. Then ye may see, they worshipped not the I­dole it selfe, but God in the Idol, they meant not to woorship any false God, but the God of heauen, which had deliuered them, & yet they did commit foule Idolatry and fell from God, in so much that God was exceeding wrath with them. Likewise in popery ye fell from God when ye bowed vnto images.

I hope not, because I did not as they did, they put a deuotion in it, I meant no suche thinge, but too bee obedient too a lawe.

Thē your meaning is, that you kept your heart and conscience to God, and went with your body but for fashion?

So long as I did keepe my consci­ence and heart to God, I trust I did well e­nough.

Then you thinke God requireth not to be woorshipped but with your soule, & that you may serue the Diuell with your body. Ye thinke also that God doth not require the outwarde confession of the mouth, although it shoulde be with losse of life.

Yee doe not heare mee saye, that wee may woorshippe the Diuell with our bodies.

You might heare your selfe say so, but that ye say ye know not what: for here­in ye are ignoraunt, that the woorshippe of images is the woorshippe of Diuels. But I knowe there be many trimme wise heades, which excuse the matter & cleere themselues this way, that they make no deuotion of the image, or any other thing in the seruice of [Page 41] the Pope, their conscience is free to GOD, they serue and feare him▪ what doth it hu [...]e them, although they come outwardely with their bodie, vnto the other: what should they indanger themselues in so small a matter? But will ye heare me what I can say out of Gods word against you, and such fellowes?

I will heare you gladly. I am not so wilfull, as not to heare.

There were amongest the Corin­thians, diuers Christians which were perswa­ded that it was a matter indifferent to goe to the Idole temple, and there to sit at the feast with the infidels▪ whiche they made in honour of the Idole, and to [...]ate of the meate which had beene [...]l [...] in sacrifice vnto the Idole: They excused the exact in this wise, that they had knowledge, they vnderstood well that the Idole was nor GOD, they went not of anie deuotion at all, as touching the wor­ship and seruice which the heathen men did vse, but for friendship and neighbourhood sake [...] they woulde not refuse to eate with suche as were th [...] kinsfolkes or acquain­tance. Nowe although S. Paule doth mildlie [...] with them, and aunsweareth their rea­sons in the [...] and [...]. chapter: yet in the 10. Chap. hec dealeth very roughly with them, [Page] [...] [Page 41] [...] [Page] [...] [Page 41] [...] [Page] setting before them the terrible example of Gods wrath vppon Idolaters, and sheweth plainly, that they were partakers of the table of diuels, and that they drāk of the cup of di­uels, howsoeuer they thought they kept them selues and their consciēces free and vnpollu­ted. Euen so I conclude, that these worldlings which vse this shift, now little deuotion soe­uer they haue, yet they haue no lesse then the Corinthians had in the Idole feast, therefore, when S. Paule affirmeth, that they committed idolatrie, it must needes follow that these do much more.

Well, if the matter be heard, that it be an offence, I trust God will forgiue vs.

It is your manner although a sinn be neuer so foule, yet to make smal account of it, but like a dogge, that is wounded, ye thinke ye can by this meanes lick your selues whole, if ye can but say, I hope GOD wil for­giue vs.

If you say true, then al our forefa­thers should be condemned, because they did worship images. I doubt not but God was as mercifull vnto them, as hee is vnto men now: I think they pleased GOD better then wée doe nowe: let vs not stand so much in our owne light.

It is a meruellous thing for to see, how the Diuell doth dazle mens eies, and howe he doth bewitch them. These thinges which you vtter, and suche like, are euen like a vaile before your eyes, so that yee are not a­ble for to haue any sight into Gods woorde. Howe grosse and doltishe soeuer the matter bee, if yee can say thus, our forefathers did it, will ye condemne thē, then all is safe enough. But see howe yee are ouer seene, all our fore­fathers did not fall from God by idolatrie, for euen in the pride of the reigne of Anti­christ, there were some stood vp against him, in diuers countreis. There were alwaies some whō God lightened to see the abhominatiōs of the man of sin, & so to repent & take hold of Christ: & God who is alwaies like himselfe receiued them to mercie. And doubtles God is more now displeased with such as do now wilfully kicke and spurne against the trueth, and seeke for to quench the glorious light of the Gospel, then he was with thē, from whō the word of God was taken away, and being blinde, they were made for to beleeue euery lye, and therefore nowe when God offe­reth his grace, and seeketh by his worde to expell that grosse darkenes, it were good for such as you, not to stande in your owne [Page] light, and obstinatelie to refuse the know­ledge of GOD. Our forefathers had that great plague came vpon them, which S. Paul did foretell. 2. These. 2. Namely, that there shoulde bee a falling away, that Antichrist shoulde deceaue the worlde, and bring them to damnation: for GOD (he saith) should sende them strong delusion, euen for to be­leeue lies, because they receaued not the loue of the trueth, that they might be saued: and now when God offereth his worde agayne, men do not ioyfully and thankfully embrace it, and therefore God doth sende them shep­heards euen after their heartes desire: not to feede them (for they cannot) but to fleese thē for that they can skill off: not to bee salt for to season them, but to bee euen like doung cast vppon them for to corrupt them: not to giue them light, seeing themselues are blind. The greatest number of you are as farre from God, as they were euen in the blindest time of Poperie, and that is confessed by your owne mouth, when ye say yee woulde fol­low our forefathers: For ye meane not those Forefathers which did know and woorshipp God aright, but those which were seduced, and fell from him by Idolatrie. I am verie loth for to question with yee any further in [Page 43] the commandementes, yee are so exceeding blinde in them. For I knowe that in our land, let all the people be numbred, and fiue parts of yee doe vnderstand so much in the com­maundements, Lords prayer, and articles of the fayth, that it were a greate shame for a godlie man to haue a childe of x. yeeres olde for to knowe no more.

How can yée tell that? I thinke yée goe beyond your booke, haue yée posed all?

I goe not so farre beyonde my booke, as you thinke I doe. And although I haue not posed all, yet I haue posed so many, that I knowe what the state of the most is. This I finde that in the best and most religi­ous townes generallie, the greatest part haue verie little zeale. This I find, that where there is one of these townes which are forwarde, there bee fiue which are not, because they want teaching. This further I knowe by ex­perience, that those which are the willing ones, and as it were the daylie hearers for a long time are verie raw when they bee exa­mined. Thē iudg you what is in the rest, which are verie seldome taught, or refuse for to bee taught. And if this be not true, let mee loose my hand. And yet there be idle bellies, which are not ashamed with open mouth to crie [Page] that lesse preaching woulde serue, and that there is knowledge enough among the peo­ple: when the poore people doe not vnder­stande so much as the Lordes prayer: vnlesse they would holde them still in poperie, they can be no more ignorant.

I could like the better, if the prea­ching might be only vpō the sabboth day: but nowe they run in the weeke dayes, and leaue their busines, & begger themselues: they goe to other townes also, which is a pitie that it is suffered: it is a great disorder.

He is said to be blessed, which hath his delight in the lawe of the Lorde, & which doth meditate therin day & night. I confesse that y ^e sabboth day is the chiefe time to seeke for knowledge. But that man which hath so little loue to the word, that he cannot bestow one houre in a weeke for to heare it, and yet can bestowe diuers houres in vayne talking, drinking and gaming, is but a dull scholler vpon the Sabboth day: I warrant yee, if a man looke well vnto him, he shall finde it harde to iudge whether he or the seat he sat on, carried away most: & for leauing their busines so far as they may conueniently, woulde yee haue them forget the precept of our sauiour christ, first seeke the kingdom of God, & his righte­ousnes, & then al these things shalbe cast vpō [Page 44] you: The soule with you is lesse to bee cared for, thē y ^e body: ye prefer this life before eter­nall life: & as for this, that mē come for to be beggers by following sermōs, y ^t they sell their kine, & that they are faine to be gathered for in the Church: ye haue a bowget full of these lies, and yee need but euen a mill for to grinde them. They are taught by the word preached, to follow their labours painfully, and the blessing of God is vpon mens labours, which doe seeke him and the knowledge of his woorde: and although it sometime doth hinder them one houre, yet it saueth them and gayneth them many houres, which they were wont to bestowe vainely.

I doe not like this so euil as y ^e other when they runne from towne to towne so disorderly.

I pray yee tell mee if there were a dearth of corne, howe far woulde yee goe to fetch corne, rather then statue? I beleeue, as farre as the sonnes of Iacob, when they went out of the land of Chanaan into Egypt.

At. I coūt him a foole, which wil not go a great way of to buy his corne, rather then starue.

He is a starke foole, which wil not go a great way rather thē starue his body: but he is not a foole which wil not once step out at his dore [Page] for to seeke the euerlasting foode of his soule.

Those are not alike, wée must néedes séeke for to liue.

Noe, you cannot see them for too bee a like: you see well in thinges of this worlde, but for heauenly thinges, yee see no­thing: but to come to the matter, it is great pitie in deede, that there shoulde be such dis­order, as that men should runne from towne to towne to heare sermons: Our Sauiour Christe pitied them when they came into the wildernesse for to heare him, because hee saith, they were as sheepe without a sheepe­hearde. But you and your mates are not grie­ued with the same pitie: yee are as like a ma­licious dogge as can [...]ee, which lyeth vppon the hay, and will eare none, neither will suf­fer the Oxe which woulde. Woe bee vnto yee Scribes and Pharisees, yee Hypocrites, ye shut vppe the kingdome of heauen before men, yee enter not in your selues, neither doe yee suffer those which would enter. Mat. 23, 14.

You say they goe to séeke foode for their soules, and to learne for to know God: but they doe it of vaine glorie.

There be alwaies some no doubt, which doe not seeke of a syncere minde but of vaine glorie, and doe abuse their knowe­ledge, and are vainelie puffed vp in them­selues, with an opinion of those things which are not in them: but will you giue sentence against all, because some are such: Is this a good argument? men giue almes for vaine glorie, men come to the Church, and pray of vaine glorie: Therefore almes and pray­er are to be left: for doubtlesse some doe those thinges for vaine glorie, euen as our Sauiour Christe accuseth the Scribes and Pharisees.

But Christ biddeth vs doe those thinges. Nowe will yee prooue that we are commanded to doe this.

I knowe no place which hath in plaine woordes, Goe vnto other countreis or townes for to heare preaching, and whie: because the will of God is that they shoulde haue preachers come home vnto them, and be appointed ouer them for to feede them. I might alleadge examples of good men which sought after Christ, whome he did not forbid. Doe ye thinke when the Lorde com­maundeth vs to seeke him so earnestlie, and that in the mysterie of his Gospell, that a few [Page] miles ought for to stop vs. Howe farre thinke yee men runne for a little earthly substaunce? Howe far doe they run on heapes, both men & women, vnto feasts, maygames, dauncings, plaies, bearebatings, and other such vanities?

Youth will be doing, ye must not blame them, they haue time enough to bee holy hereafter. I haue had as greate delight my self ere nowe in those things as one, but nowe I waxe olde.

I was sure yee woulde allowe this kinde of running from towne to towne, this is no disorder at all: howe many are there of yee, which crie out with open mouth, against such as seeke after the woorde, and seeke for to trouble & punish them for so doing, which once open your mouth against these foule a­buses? Whereas ye say, youth will be doyng, ye say true, and so will many aged likewise, but doth it followe therefore that they must be suffered to do the thinges which are euill? In that yee say, they haue time enough to bee holy hereafter, therein you shewe yourselfe to be a right worldling, a very epicure, an igno­rant man: for thus your worldly Epicures doe speake, youth will haue their race, let them alone, what shoulde young men and maidens doe with the scriptures? cleane con­trarie [Page 46] vnto that which God speaketh by his Prophete. Wherewithall shall a young man clense his way? euen by taking heede there­to according to thy woorde. Likewise by Sa­lomon in the booke of Ecclesiastes chap. 11. Remember thy creator in the dayes of thy youth. But now a daies it is a principal point of diuinitie, that youth may walke after the lustes of the fleshe, so long vntill through custome of sinning, they are so besotted and hardened in their wicked lusts, & their con­cupiscences are growen so strong, that there can no grace enter into them, & so it seemeth for to be with you, for I dare warrant, you are able to tell a long tale of your youth trickes.

Well, I am as I am, you cannot make me better, & I trust ye shall make mee no woorse. Ye speake as though none coulde be good but scripture men.

None can be good but such as feare God, such as seeke for to obey him: None feare God, which set light by his ordinaunces and cast them behinde their backes: None can obey GOD, but suche as doe seeke for to knowe and followe those preceptes which hee vttereth in his woorde. None are godlie, but such as are clensed, and guide their wayes by the woorde. Hee whiche is [Page] of God heareth Gods worde.

If they be so good and godlie, howe commeth it to passe then, that there is so much debate among them? for I knowe townes my selfe, whiche are euen deuided one part against another, since they had a preacher, which were not so before. This they gaine, that whereas before they loued together, nowe there is dissention sowne a­mong them.

Nowe ye discharge your greatest ordinance: I trowe yee haue nowe paide it home: It is harde if Satan cannot with this engine ouerthrowe and beate downe Prea­ching. But I pray you tell mee, can yee put fire and water together but they will rum­ble? Will yee haue light and darkenesse for to agree as companions together?

What is this to the matter?

Woulde yee haue God and the Diuell agree together? woulde ye haue the godlie and the wicked for to bee at one? this ye must do, ye looke where the fault is to bee laide.

I thinke the fault must néedes bee layde vppon the preaching, because they a­gréed before that came.

If their agreement together be­fore had beene good, then no doubt the preaching that should breake it, could not be good: for one good thing cannot destroye another. But the former peace was not in GOD, but in the fleshe: neither was it so great as you would seeme for to set it foorth, because that the worldlinges are alwayes at strife, and one readie for to cut anothers throate: but yet their hatred is so exceeding greate against the Gospell, that in respect of the mind, which they carrie towards the pro­fessors thereof, they seeme among themselues to bee at peace, and one to loue and make much of another.

Where is the fault then for to be layde?

Vpon the wicked which fret and rage against the word, because it layeth open and discloseth their filthinesse, and bewray­eth them. For the light (as S. Paule saith) doth manifest all thinges. They pretend other ex­cuses, as though they hated the professours for some euill conditions: but this is very euident, a blinde man may almost discerne it, that so long as a man is voyd of religion, and maketh profession of no more then they; so long, although he be full, and swarme with [Page] greate vices, hee is an honest man, but let him follow the woorde, and be carefull for to amende, then there is not a lewder fellow vppon earth, diuers flaunders shall bee ray­sed, thinges shall bee reckoned vp, which hee did seuen yeeres agone: and now they hate him like a dogge. Light is come into the worlde, and men loue derkenesse more then light, because their workes be euill. Will yee charge Christe and his Gospell, because as he sayeth, hee came not to sende peace, but a swoorde, to set the father against the sonne? Math. 10. Or will yee laye the blame vppon those which loue the light? Will yee blame S. Paule and his preaching because there was stirre and hurly burly almost wheresoeuer he came? Was he to be blamed, or the wicked infidels, which could not abide to haue their sinnes reproued?

There be some places where they haue graue and learned preachers, and yet there is no such contention in their parishes: I like that wel.

You like that well: so doth your master also.

What meane you by that? whome doe ye call my master?

Euen the Diuell, for he is con­tent [Page 48] those preachers should ryde vppon his backe, because he is sure they will not spure▪ gall him: they be verie gentle riders. Doe ye not thinke, that if they shoulde set foorth Gods worde as they ought, and spreade the light: that all wicked men (of which their pa­ri [...]he are full) would storme and fret against them? the Diuell himselfe woulde fiske a­bout, if they shoulde spurre him but a little. But they can tell a smooth tale in the pulpit, garnished with some mery story, for to make the people merry, or else some olde rotten allegorie: or some farre fetched matter out of some great writers, that the people maye be at their wits ende, and admit them. A mā would thinke to see the people come out of the Church blowing, that they were fedde as ful as tickes; when they goe home with emp­tie bellies. This I dare warrant, if it be not so, let me lose both mine eares, that goe tho­row the parishes of these graue and learned diuines, and except such as runne to fetche their victuals other where, yee shall not find fiue among fiuescore which are able to vn­derstande the necessarie groundes and prin­ciples of religion: and yet the people will say they bee excellent deepe men: But I loue not those▪ Welles whiche are so deepe [Page] that a man can drawe no water out of them.

I sée you like better of young rash heades and troublesome fellowes, then yee doe of graue stayed men: for nowe a dayes there are a number which take vpon them to preach, which in deede do but prattle: and for my part, I wil beléeue none of them: but I wil rather giue credite to that which an­cient learned men do speake.

I do vtterly mislike, that any rashe head shoulde haue the office of preaching▪ which is a thing of so greate dignitie, as to be the mouth of God vnto the people, to vtter the counsels and mysteries of the Lorde, and to teach them the way to saluation: and great dishonour to God and his Gospell it [...] is, if there be many such, as you say there be: but if they be godly, learned, graue, discrete, and wise, and doe faithfully and zealously▪ dispose the manifolde mysteries of God, thē the matter is not whether they bee young or olde: for the docttine which they doe teache and expound, is not their owne, but the doctrine of Christ, the authoritie is not of them, but of GOD which hath giuen it. But I knowe your meaning: you count all those to be ignoraunt, and to prattle, which [Page 49] do not preach according vnto your humor▪ such as doe sharpely inu [...]igh against your va­nities: and those which doe not, they be lear▪ned and graue men, let vs beleeue them: and so yee looke not what God saieth, but what men say: and surely those kind of graue men doe great hurt: I meane such as carry a great shew of learning in them, and scarce: any are the better for it.

And surely I thinke they do much good.

You thinke they do much good: but I know they do very much hurt: the blind and vnlearned Ministers are hurtfull, those which are popish priests doe hurt; they which follow euill vices, as drunken ministers, swea­rers, quarellers, adulterers, gamesters, & suche like doe hurt, but yet these which you speake of, do more hurt: I will tell you howe, where there is such an one as those aboue named, the people haue no great opiniō of them, for they can▪ easily say, alas our minister is not a­ble nor meete for to teach vs, and so they are willing to heare & to be informed by others: but those which haue one of your profounde Clearkes, the people so muche hang vppon him, that they will heare none other: This [Page] they say, our preacher is as profounde a man as any of thē all: if we were out of the way, he would tell vs, if so much [...]eaching were need­full, woulde not he teach vs? If such things were euill, would he vse them? And so they conclude, that they care not for learning ought sauing at his mouth, when as in deede he teacheth them litle or nothing, peraduen­ture he giueth them a cold collation once a month, and when a man shall take the proofe of them, he shall finde that they are no bet­ter then such as haue a dumbe I doll to their shepheard.

Is it not better for to haue a sermon now and then, and to haue it a learned ser­mon: then for to haue many without lear­ning? I thinke one such sermon doeth more good thē an hundreth of those flying sermons.

I graunt thus much, that the word of God is to be handeled with great care, men are not to steppe foorth and to speake rashly, and without sure and vndoubted knowledge of the thinges which they vtter.

Moreouer, there ought to be such lear­ning and discretion, as shall be sufficient to open and to manifest the power and digni­tie of the worde vnto the consciences of the hearers: he must be able for to make plaine [Page 50] the sense of the scriptures, and he must apply it to the hearers which doth preach. For to handle the holy mysteries of God vnskilfully is a vice greatly to be condemned, & I thinke such, although they preache neuer so often, shall doe but litle good. But I pray you let me know which you count a learned sermon: and which ye call a flying sermon?

That is a learned sermon, when the Preacher doth lay open the matter lear­nedly.

You meane when he is able to speake much Latine, and to alleadge all sorts of writers?

I count those learned fellowes in déed, I will not giue a button for those Eng­lish Doctors, whiche can alleadge no more but out of Paul and Peter.

It would bee a notable learned Sermon then, if the Preacher shoulde speak [...] all latine.

Then wee whiche doe not vn­derstande latine shoulde bee neuer the bet­ter.

If so little coulde pleasure you, then no doubt a whole sermon would edifie yee much. But such vayne men as you. [Page] doe shew your vanitie, when ye looke more after those thinges which should feede your eares, then for to haue your soules conuer­ted. Is that to be vsed which cannot edifie at all, but serueth for a vaine shewe, and distur­beth the minde and memorie of the diligent hearer? But let this goe, and let vs see the other, for alleadging of writers, in this mat­ter yee haue sundrie graue men of your side, which count those Sermons learned, which are set foorth with all sortes of authorities, and those which bring the bare worde out of the Bible, they make but verball Sermons: But doubtlesse they may shewe some graui­tie in their beard, for there is none in the mat­ter.

Are they not thereby knowne for to be learned men, euerye Plowe man nowe a dayes can alleadge out of Saint Paul.

They are thereby knowne for to bee vnskilfull men, and such as are not right­ly instructed in the doctrine of S. Paule. They make a great shew of learning and yet want the knowledge of the dignitie of gods word. When as they bring in the sayings of Plato, and Aristotle, as fellowes and companions with the oracles of God vttered by his Pro­phetes [Page 51] and Apostles, and as though there were greater and deeper matter in those, then in the Bible, whereas all the heauenly myste­ries and counsels of God are vttered, they sticke not to count that vnlearned whiche is brought from thence: and greate learning to bee in the sayinges of the other. For this cause they doe also seeke for to ga [...]ish their sermons, and as it were for to set them with pearle, when as in effect they doe no­thing else, but as if a man shoulde mingle leade with pure golde, and claye with preci­ous oyle. And because yee speake or lear­ning▪ tell me what ye thinke, whether Saint Augustine or Saint Paule, was the better lear­ned.

You shoulde aske that question of such as are learned: would y [...]e haue m [...]e tell y [...]e?

Is not hee which doth alleadge sentences out of Augustine, Ambrose, Hie­rome, and Cyprian, better learned then they which alleadge out of Moses, Esay▪ Peter, Paule, or Iohn?

I tolde ye before that euery man can alleadge out of these, & if I coulde ceade, and had a Bible, I coulde doe it also: but to alleadge out of the other, none can doe that, [Page] but such as are great Clearkes.

Then it seemeth that they were better then Paul, and Peter, or Moses, or els why should they be estemed to be better lear­ned which do cite them?

If I might shoote my bolt▪ I thinke they were the l [...]arn [...]der, because their wri­tings are so pro [...]oun [...]e.

I woulde you did thinke so alone, but in deede the people haue been so delu­ded with suche as would make a shew of lear­ning, that multitudes are of your mynde▪ which bringeth in a vile and shamefull aba­sing of the most holy and sacred Bible. But let me aske yee certayne questions. Doe yee not thinke that if the writinges of those men were to be redde in our tongue, that e­uerie man then coulde bee able to alleadge out of them, as they doe out of the By­ble?

I thinke they might then bee a­ble.

Doe yee suppose those shoulde by and by be esteemed for to be learned▪ whiche doe then alleadge sayinges out of them?

I s [...]e no cause why then they should not be counted so.

Is hee learned in the Bible, which can alleadge many sentences?

A man may speake muche & know little.

You might see likewise that men may alleadge sayinges out of great Doctors, and yet themselues be great Dawes: for hee is learned whom God doth teache for to vn­derstande the heauenly mysteries vttered by the Prophetes and Apostles▪ and in vttering them, doeth followe the steppes of Paule and the rest. The Doctours had all their true learning out of the Bible: for in it is se [...]e foorth that▪ wisedome whiche is aboue all.

The Scriptures are darke & hard, and [...] therefore men nowe doe not vnder­stande them as the Doctors did. And for this cause, I haue heard preachers saye, they are to be vouched.

Those Preachers might haue bin wiser, then for to maintayne two so grosse opinions▪ The first, accusing the Scriptures of such darkenesse, as though they coulde not b [...]e vnderstoode, whereas in deede the principall and most necessarie poyntes, the Lorde hath spoken so clearely, that verye sim­ple men maye bee taught for to see the [Page] plaine euidence of the worde. The other de­priueth the Churche of the true interpreter of the worde, which is the spirite of God, as though the Lord did not now giue such gifts as hee gaue to those Doctors: which is a po­pish opinion also: for so long as God giueth his worde to the Churche, so long he giueth the interpreter of the same▪ although not in all ages alike: but whosoeuer is not blynde, may easily see, that▪ in this age there bee as great giftes bestowed vppon the Church, as euer were in any▪ since the time of the Apo­stles.

Then you are one of those whiche deface the olde Fathers, when yee will not allowe them for to [...] the▪ Ser­mons. To what vse then shoulde [...] reade them?

That is a verye false accusation▪ shoulde a man bee accused for de [...]ing the honour of the Lord Chauncellour, because hee would denie him the dignitie and honor of the prince▪ Likewise shall a man bee say de for to iniu [...]ie or deface▪ the Doctors, because hee will not giue them the dignitie whiche doeth belong vnto God alone? The prea­cher is the mouth of God vnto the people, and not the mouth of men? hee is not▪ for [Page 53] to vtter doubtfull matter and vncertay [...]e, but suche as may be most euident. He must say, and proue euen vnto the conscience of the hearer, thus God speaketh, and thus hee meaneth. Hee can not say Augustine saith it, therefore God saieth it, Augustine sayeth it, therefore it is vndoubtedly true: for Augu­stine might and did erre many wayes. But hee may saie, Saint Paule saith it, therefore GOD him selfe saith it, S. Paule saith, therefore it is vndoubtedly true: for looke what he saith, or any other Apostle▪ Euangelist or Prophete, God hath set it downe, by them, it is his, and not theirs: they are but the instrumentes which he vsed for to vtter and penne his will▪ his spirite in them ruled▪ the whole in this case, so that they did not, nor coulde not erre: nowe when the preacher doth laye o­pen their saying, not he, nor they, but GOD▪ speaketh: as they were the mouth of God for▪ to set it downe, so is hee nowe againe the mouth of God, for to recite and declare it▪

The worde of God is certaine and▪ sure, because God cannot lie, but howe shall▪ I [...]we which is their [...] sense of it [...] shall▪ I beleeue euerie man which doth interprer▪ the worde▪ shall I not the better beleeue [...] [Page] if he say it is not my interpretation, but S. Ierome he saith so, S. Augustine hee sayth so I promise yée, he shall haue the greater cre­dite with me, for they were other maner of men then hée.

I cannot but [...]ruell to see howe grosse and dull your head is for to learne the trueth, and how readily you can bring out such matters as this: ye speake not of your owne head. I woulde there were no greater learned men then you blinded in this matter. But let mee shewe yee your grosse errour▪ Yee say the word is certaine and sure: but the interpretation thereof yee make doubtfull: but what are we the better that the worde of God is sure and certaine, vnlesse it be sure & certaine vnto vs, which cannot bee except the interpretation be so? It is as good for you to say the word is doubtfull, as for to say the sense is doubtfull: Nowe when as yee hang the sense vppon men▪ can ye denie but that still it is in doubt? This must needes arise in the minde, those Doctors said so, but they might erre, and therefore I am not cer­taine that this is the sense. If this shall bee admitted in the Church, what shall become of that [...] ▪ or full certaintie of fayth, which the woorde of GOD doeth require [Page 54] to be in vs, it is grounded vpon the word of God, for it cannot stande otherwise.

Moreouer, faith is sure what God mea­neth, or else it is no faith: therefore such as woulde hang mens saith vppon the authori­tye of men, where they must needes still be in doubt, and when they are at the furthest, they come but vnto this, it is [...] like for to be true, because such notable men speake it, doe not know a right what faith is, for that yee say, he shall haue the more credite with you, if he say, It is not my saying, but the saying of Augustine: therein ye were euen as good say, that your fayth is built vpon men, and not vpon God. For if ye doe beleeue, because some great learned or Godlie man, telleth yee the matter, this is no true beleefe, for wee must bee fully perswaded that God him selfe doeth tell vs, or els wee be neuer the neere.

Howe shall I know when GOD speaketh, [...] which God speaketh▪ you come and preach one way, another commeth and▪ hee doeth, proache another way, yee preache one contrary to another: you say God spea­keth, hee saith God speaketh, whiche shall wee beleeue▪ Is not [...]ee to [...]e [...] best belée­ued, which can shew that those greate doctors [Page] are on his side.

See what a grounde you leaue vnto, you know not when GOD speaketh, not what God speaketh: and therefore yee will haue some of the olde Doctors for to tell: are yee sure hee telleth yee right? if ye be, it is because hee sheweth ye the worde of God, why he telleth yee so, the credite must bee giuen vnto the word, and not to the man. But you saie yee can not tell when one doeth al­leadge the worde in the true meaning, howe then, can ye tell when one alleadgeth the do­ctor in the true meaning: he which will fal­sifie the word of God in the Bible, he will not sticke for to falsifie the meaning of the Do­ctor: you may search the scriptures, to see whether the testimonies alleadged be so, as the men of Berea did, when Paule preached Act. 17. 11. You cannot, neither are yee com­maunded for to searche the doctors. And vnlesse yee see the manifest [...] of gods worde, ye are not bounde for to beleeue, but if it be plainlie shewed, that God hath spo­ken, then yee are bounde vnder the [...] of damnation, for to giue credite vnto it. Christe sayth▪ My sheepe, heare my voyce, a straunger they will not heare. Iohn 10. Al­so S. Iohn saith, brethren, beleeue not euerie [Page 55] spirite, but trie the spirites, whether they be of God. 1. Iohn 4. he therefore which saith, I cannot tell when the voyce of Christ is vt­tered, it is all one as if he should say, I am none of the sheepe of Christ, because (as he saith) Euery one of his sheepe do knowe his voyce. He that saith, I know not which Prea­cher doth preach truth, and which falshood, he may euen as well say, I am none of those, to whome the holy Ghost speaketh, and sayth: Try the spirites whether they be of God, it is a generall precept giuen vnto all Christians.

Ye shall neuer make mee beleeue that euerye man is for to iudge, whether the Preacher speake true or false.

I know not what I shall be able for to make you beleeue, but I am sure I can plainely shewe what yee ought to beleeue. First, marke this, the worde came not from man, neither can a man teache it ye, vnlesse God reueale it by his spirite: if it were the wisedome of the worlde, or of the flesh, then the spirit of the world which is in man and knoweth the secretes of man, could teache it: but because it is the mysterie of GOD, none can make yee learne it, but the holy Ghoste, which searcheth euen the deepe [Page] things of God, as S. Paul teacheth. 1. Cor. 2. 10 S. Iohn in his first Epistle, Chap. the seconde, hauing told them that there were euen then many Antichrists, he comforteth them with this. You saith he, haue receiued an annointing from the holy one, & know all things. Like as therefore none of those can learne, whō God doth not inlighten with his spirite: so on the cōtrary part all those which are taught with­in by the spirit, doe feele when the doctrine which the same spirit hath taught, is vttered: he knoweth his owne, and he sealeth it vp in their hearts and consciences, which being in­structed by him, must needes consent thereto fully. For this cause there is great difference betweene such as set all vpon the authorities of men, and such as preach, as S. Paul saith he did with the plaine euidence of the spirit, and of power, 1. Cor. 2. 4. he addeth the reason in the next verse, that their faith should not cō ­sist in the wisedome of men, but in the power of God. If faith may not hang vpon the wis­dome of men, and therefore the intising speech which mans wisedome teacheth, is to be auoided in setting foorth the Gospell, then can it not stand vpon the authorities of men.

Is it not lawfull in any respect for [Page 56] to alleadge them?

Yes, no doubt there are circum­stances, which may make it sometime very needfull I speake only against this, that they are alleaged when as we may alledge the same things out of the worde it selfe. And when they are alleadged, for men to builde their faith vpon, or to make men thinke that there can be no certaintie in the interpretation of the worde, but where as they are made for to speake: When as in deed the Preacher in his Sermon must come with such euidence and make his proofe so plaine and so strong, that it must needes conuince the conscience of the hearers, in such wise that of necessitie he shal­be forced for to say, vndoubtedly that which this man vttereth, is that which God himself speaketh: for so saith the Apost. 1. Cor. 14. 24 If, saith he, all doe prophesie, and there come in an infidel, or one vnlearned, he is reproued of all, he is iudged of all: and so the secrets of his hearte are made manifest, and falling vp­on his face, he will worship God, confessing that God is verily among you. This testimo­nie doth shew that the force of Gods worde vttered nakedly is▪ such, that it conuicteth the hart of the infidel, and cōpelleth him for to confesse that God is with thē which speak it.

[Page]The worde of God is described in the E­pistle to the Hebrwes Chap. 4. 12. after this sort: the worde of God (saith he) is liuely & mightie in operation, sharper then any two edged sworde, and entereth in vnto the deui­ding asunder of the soule and the spirite, of the ioynts and the marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the hart. Men might vnderstand by this, that by whom soe­uer this sword of the spirite be drawne forth, if it be rightly handled, it will pearse through, and through both the bodies and soules of the hearers, and will moue euery veine in the heart, euen of the wicked. So that he needeth not for to grind it, or make it sharpe vpon the grindstone of Ambrose or Hierom.

Then you destroy learning, if yee take awaye the writinges of the Doctors, for they serue to no vse: if it be as you say, why should students read them?

There is great benefite in the rea­ding of them, for to helpe vs to the true vn­derstanding of the scriptures.

If they helpe yée to vnderstand the scriptures, wherefore do yée not when yee ex­pound the scriptures, tell which is theirs? Yée robbe them, and take the glorie to your [Page 57] selues.

Nowe yee reason as bussardlike as can be, ye may be a Doctour of Dunces, for this argument. Doth the Preacher come in his owne name, must he tell his owne will, or is he to seeke his owne glorie or the glory of any other man? If other haue hol­pen him to finde the knowledge of Gods will, which he must vtter, it is therefore be­come theirs, because they haue shewed it vn­to him: If he now set it foorth in the name of the Lord alone, whose it is, doth he robbe them? For looke whatsoeuer a man findeth in the auncient writers in expounding, he is no further to beleeue them then they proue their exposition out of the Bible: so that it continueth still not theirs, but the Lordes▪ and if wee shoulde ascribe it vnto them, we should robbe the Lorde, and bee theeues for other men. Therefore in this matter, wee must follow the precept which the Lorde gi­ueth. 1, Peter 4. 11. He that speaketh let him speake as the wordes of God.

Is that so meant, that it is not a­low [...]to cite any thing out of other bookes besides the worde?

I tolde yee before that it is not simply vnlawfull for to cite or alleadge a sentence out of a Doctour. But the ma­ner and ende of the dooyng of it is all: I say likewise that a man may in some sorte al­leadge a saying out of any Heathen or pro­phane Writer: for wee haue the example of Saint Paule Actes. 17. 1. Corinth. 15. Titus 1. Alleadging the sayinges of pro­phane Poets. But wee must see to what end: doth hee reason thus, the Poet saith it, therefore are yee to giue credite vnto it: no man woulde bee so foolishe as to make their wordes being Heathen men, to bee of such authoritie: but he sheweth that euen their owne Doctors consented with him in those things. And therefore a shame, and foule reproche for them too bee igno­rant of the same. When the Papistes doe charge vs to be gone from the faith of the olde Fathers, although we are to confute them this way, namely, by shewing their treacherie and lying, when we are able to prooue by the writinges of the auncient Fa­thers that in the chiefe pointes they fully a­gree with vs: yet this is not the way which God hath appointed and sanctified for the [Page] conuersion and education of his people: this engine is ouer weake to reare vp the Temple of the Lorde: we must take heede we leaue not the mightie worde it selfe, and leane vnto a tottering piller: Saint Paule sheweth the power of the worde. 2. Corinth. 10. where hee saith, although we walke in the fleshe, yet wee warre not after the fleshe: for the weapons of our warrefare are not carnall, but mightie in God for to throwe downe holdes: which he expoun­deth in the verse which followeth, to be the imaginations and euery high thing which is exalted against the knowledge of God, and euery thought, which (hee saith) they leade captiue vnto the obedience of Christ. There is no power nor anye authoritie can doe these thinges, but that which is in the word of God it selfe. Which is to be made so eui­dent by the Preacher, that it may bring this thing to passe.

The miserable experience in our time of suche as flie from the strong power of the woorde, and fight with the weapons of menne, maye reache vs, because it doeth manifestly appeare vnto all whiche haue eyes too see, that they are not [Page] strong enough to throwe downe holdes, and to leade captiue vnto the obedience of Christ the rebellious thoughtes and imaginations of mens mindes: they cannot shew a man by them conuerted sincerely & throughly from errours and euill maners: by alleadging the authorities of men. It was not the practise of the auncient and godly fathers in their Ser­mons for to leaue the testimonies of the mightie word, which is able to rent the stony rocke in peeces, and to cleaue to the authori­ties of weake men, which were gone before them. But what should a man say? The worde is thought to bee of no power vnlesse it bee strengthened otherwise.

But let vs leaue this and come backe a­gaine to some of your other matters. I re­member ye did lay this as a great accusation against the preachers that they medled with predestination.

I did so and not without cause, for they do great hurt thereby vnto many, when they teach such thinges.

What hurte can yee shewe, which commeth by preaching of predestina­tion.

If a man bee chosen for to bee saued, let him doe as euil as hee can hee shall not bee damned: and if a man be appointed before hee was borne to bee damned, let him doe neuer so much good hee can not bee saued: and therefore when yee teach this doctrine, ye were euen as good tel the people that they may liue as they lust: Let them neuer heare teaching, to what purpose shoulde it serue?

Howe proude and presumptu­ously bolde ignoraunce doth make a man? It might seeme to bee a rare thing that a mor­tall man, which is but claye and dust, yea a rotten Carion shoulde aduaunce himselfe a­gainst God, euen the Lorde of infinite wise­dome and glorie, but that wee see it dayly for to be common.

Doe not accuse me for to be proud, I would I were as frée from all other faults if it pleased God.

If ye were as sicke, as ye be proude, a verie litle meate woulde giue yee your sup­per. But I knowe you doe not see your pride.

I maruell why ye shoulde counte [...] proude, ye see how plaine I goe.

You thinke that pride is in the [Page] [...] [Page 59] [...] [Page] coate, when it is in the heart, a man may haue a kinges hearte in his breast, and yet a beggers coate vppon his backe. There is cause why yee doe not goe gay, yee are not able: for take the ragged dest begger in the worlde, and giue her the same wing whiche the great Ladies haue, and yee shall see her flie the same flight. There is pride against GOD, and against men, and you are in the deepest of them, euen agaynste God.

Prooue that, because yée condemne me so sore.

Yee take your selfe for to bee wise, and the Lorde vndiscrete and vnwise. For yee charge him with follie when as yee say this doctrine doeth ouerthrowe all, and yet hee hath expressed it in sundrie places of his woorde. If it bee so exceeding hurtfull, then surely Christ was to be blamed: Saint Paule, and saint Peter with the rest of the Apostles were verie vndiscrete, because they haue sette it foorth. It seemeth that it had been good for them to haue taken ad­uise of the deepe heades of the worlde, whiche might haue foretolde them the daunger whiche woulde followe, and haue [Page 60] saide, Maisters take heede howe yee deale with suche doctrine, it will turne yee vnto discretite. O foolishe wise fleshe, this matter is ouer farre beyonde thy reache, thou canst neuer come within the smell of it.

Smell, or smel not, let me heare yée aunsweare the matter.

You suppose that your reasons are vnaunswerable, and that causeth yee to bee so freshe and readie, but alas man, your halfepenie is no good siluer, yee are in a wrong boxe, I will shewe you howe childish­ly ye erre.

Forsooth say you, if God hath chosen a man to saluation before hee was borne, then let him doe as euill as he can, hee shall not bee damned: and whereas the nature of man is prone and readie to seeke after the libertie of the fleshe, this doth open a doore vnto him, and a wide passage vnto all euill, because he needeth not to care what he doth, it is appointed before hande what shall be­come of him.

This mightie and inuincible reason of yours hath neuer an eye to see with all, and although it seeme for to haue good legges [Page] yet is it but an olde Criple: be not led by it for yee shall both fall into the ditch. Did yee neuer heare what S. Paule sayth, Ephesi­ans. Chapter I. 4. these are his wordes, as he hath chosen vs in him, before the foun­dations of the worlde were layde, that wee shoulde bee holy and without blame be­fore him through loue. Howe stand these two thinges together, when you say if men be chosen they may liue as they lust, and God sayth by his Apostle, that hee hath chosen them for to bee holy and blame­lesse in their conuersation. And this is vn­doubtedly true, that those whom God hath predestinate to bee heires of glory, hee hath sealed them with the holy Spirite, as yee maye reade in the same Chapter. They are freed from the bondage of sinne by the spirite, they walke in the spirite, they are led by the spirite, they shewe forth by the fruites of the spirite, that the flesh with the lustes and concupiscences thereof is crucified in them, and that they are regenerate and [...] againe of the spirite, and so become newe creatures in Christ, sinne is abhomi­nable vnto them, they hate & loth it no lesse then deadlie poison, they pant and breath to [Page 61] be wholy set free from the remnantes of it. Righteousnesse is deare and precious vnto them, their ioye and heartes delight is in it. They sigh and grone, because they can not reache vnto the perfection of it. The word of God doth plainely teach, that the electe are thus as I haue shewed: and yet men say that election taketh away all care of Godlye life.

I like not this, that men will saye, they know God hath chosen them: howe can they tell? Can any man tell what God will doe with him? Did God euer tell them, that they are elected:

Howe shoulde you like of this, when as yee like of no goodnesse? Howe shoulde you which are but a naturall man, iudge of thinges spirituall? You thinke a man can not tell what GOD will do with him: because you are blinde and see not the way: ye suppose all other are so: you are an Infidell, or els ye might plainly heare GOD speake in his woord, and tell which shall be saued, and which are in the way to damna­tion. Doe ye suppose that it is vncertayne when the scripture telleth a man howe he shall knowe that he is chosen, if the woorde [Page] of God tell him he is chosen, hath not God himselfe then tolde him? Read the first Chap­ter of the seconde Epistle of Peter, and there yee shall see how a man shall knowe certainely that he is elected, and that hee shall neuer fall. For if a man feele that GOD teacheth him by his spirite, and reneweth him by re­pentaunce, he is sure (because God sayth so) that he is chosen to eternall life: if at any time hee feele the grace of GOD weake in him, then doeth hee doubt and stagger, but yet his fayth getteth the vpper hande. On the other side, when a man liueth in sinne, and obeyeth vnrighteousnesse: God telleth him plainely that he is in the way to damna­tion. And therefore all those which do not finde in them selues the spirituall birth at the least begunne whereby they may assure them selues that they be chosen: May certain­ly say, that as yet their state is damnable.

Howe can yee saye their state is damnable, so long as they beléeue? Can men do more then beléeue?

They doe not beleeue: for if they beleeue, then are they sure that GOD loueth them, what is it else which they be­leeue? if they knowe they bee in fauour with God, it is because he chose them in Christ. [Page 62] If they doubt of Gods fauour then doe they doubt whether God heareth their prayers, & therefore they shall not receyue any thing at the handes of GOD, as ye may learne in the Epistle of Saint Iames. Chapter 1. verse 6, 7. and although manie of the faithfull doe doubt & stagger oftentimes, yet they are not like the vnfaithful which cōtinue in the same, but they get the vpper hande, they striue by prayer, & by al other meanes which god hath appointed, to strengthen and increase their faith, their knowledge, their repentance, and so farre to growe in grace, vntill they come to assurance that God hath chosen them. As for the wicked they know of no such faith, that a man may atraine to assurance of his election: they labour not about anie such matter, but continue still in their blinde doubtes, setting all vpon hazzard: and as for their doing what they can, it is nothing, they cannot but sinne, and therefore be damned, howesoeuer they seeme for to do good workes, yet before God they are no good workes, because they pro­ceede not of faith, but from the flesh▪ they are not grafted into the true vine, Christ, and for that cause can bring forth no fruite. Ioh. 15.

If GOD had chosen men before [...] worlde [...]o bee saued▪ Wherefore did [Page] Christ dye for to saue them? If they shoulde bee saued before, his death was more then needed. Wherefore should men bee taught, wherefore should they pray [...] all these are in vaine.

You are like vnto a man whiche doeth make strife and debate betweene bre­thren and friendes: you woulde set prayer and teaching, and the death of Christ, toge­ther by the eares with Gods election: but doe what yee can, all these will agree well to­gether, they bee so vnseparably knit in friend­ship. God hath chosen men for to be redee­med in his sonne. For the scripture sheweth that we are chosen in Christ. He hath chosen men to bee instructed and called by prea­ching the woord, he hath chosen men for to call vpon him and to worship him, in holy­nes and righteousnes, all the dayes of their life.

Ye speake much of preaching, prea­ching as though it were so needful: Can they make the worde of God better then it is? Is there not enough set downe in the Bible for men to reade, wherefore shoulde they adde more? Can not men reade that? Is not rea­ding preaching?

Now ye seeke new starting holes▪ [Page 63] There is some Colt so wilde, that he will trou­ble halfe a dosen light men of foote for to driue him: hee will in at euery gappe, turne at euery lane, and out at euery gate. Euen so I can liken the reasoning with such as you are: yee haue so many by shiftes, so many ca­uils, so many turninges, that ten of the best learned in this lande, shall hardly bee able to keepe ye in the way. But wee must not leaue yee thus but bring yee into the way againe. Preaching is not so needefull, they can make the worde of God no better then it is: why man they doe not preache for to make the worde better, but for to make you better. There is enough set downe in the Bible, but you vnderstand little enough of it. Men may reade it, as a great number doe which peruert it, and are nothing bettered by it, be­cause they seeke not helpe for to vnderstande it. Reading say you is preaching. Truly then I knowe a man which hath a little daughter that is a trimme Preacher. I perceiue our lande is full of Preachers: but yet in deede not such as Saint Paule describeth. For the little girle is not apt to teach, able to instruct, to exhort, to conuince, not to deuide or cut the worde of God aright, nor to open the Mysteries of it. If yee leape ouer many of [Page] these ditches, yee will breake your necke in the ende: ye are a very skilfull man, when yee take expounding and applying the worde of God, for to be adding: for ye aske why they should adde.

Are not men allowed which are but readers, euen by the learnedst in the lande? Doe yée finde faulte with the Bishoppes? or are yee one of those whiche doe not allowe of Bishops? for such fellowes there be nowe a dayes.

I would ye should know that I am none of those which disalow Bishops: when as the worde of God doth set it downe to be a worthie worke: it is a very reuerende office, & exceedingly they are to be blamed, which doe contemne it, or deface it. God hath or­deined the office of Bishops in his Church, for to gouerne and feede his people: such as would abolish this ordinance of God, doe re­sist God, and are enemies vnto the Church of Christ.

By my faith, I like yée the better for that.

I like you neuer the better for your swearing.

I am not so precise as too make [Page 64] any account of swearing by my faith.

I thinke so, for faith is no more account made of, then as a packehorse, all is laide on his backe.

I pray God we may doe no worse, and then I hope wee shall doe well enough: are you without sinne? I doubt not but yee will commit as great offence to GOD as this, or euer the weeke bee ended. Pull the beame out of your owne eye: If euery man woulde looke to himselfe, there shoulde not bee so much finding faulte one with an other.

Where learne ye that prayer in the scripture? The Prophet Dauid, Psalme 19. Prayeth to be cleansed from his secrete sinnes, although they bee neuer so small. Where learned ye to speake after this sorte, no woorse, and that yee hope then to doe well enough: Is it nothing to breake so straight a rule of Christ? Doe yee not thinke that children dying in their infancie, before they can speake or woorke are damned for lesse sins. I speake of such as are not of Gods Church. When as they haue onely originall sin▪ You know not from how euil a roote this [...]inne doth spring: neither doee ye know the [Page] foulenesse of sinne, and therefore ye cannot tell how much God doth abhorre it, & con­demne it. For this cause, being as full of filthy vices and prophane sinnes as ye cā be thrust, and of such in deede as God doth curse and hate: because they seeme small vnto you, ye suppose ye shal do wel ynough. What if I haue greater in me or that I shall cōmit greater as you say before the weeke be ended, doth that excuse you? I haue many secret sinnes in me, which I do not see because I do not perfectly vnderstād the law of God: for these I doe ear­nestly intreat the Lord to make them knowne vnto me, by giuing me more perfect vnder­standing of his will, and also to giue me po­wer for to cast them out. I haue also many sinnes in mee which I see and knowe, that cleane so fast, that I cannot vtterly cast them foorth: notwithstanding I hate and abhorre them, I am wearie of them, I fight against them, I grone and sigh in my heart with so­rowe for them, I feele no sweetnesse in them: for they are more bitter then Gall vnto my soule. I am exceeding glad when I can sup­presse them, I haue professed and vowed a continuall warre against them, and although I preuaile not so farre as to bee vtterly ridde [Page 65] of them, yet I labour by meditation in gods worde, and by heartie prayer, to bring them vnder, that they raigne not ouer me, nor that I may not agree with them: and although I be not able to become perfect, yet with al the might I can, I straine and breath to come as nigh perfection as I can: my desire is good to reach it, and although I find that I come ma­ny degrees short, yet I approche nearer and nearer. This is true repentance, this is that which S. Paule setteth forth in himselfe. Rom. 7. Philip. 3. With this I know God is pleased▪ without this there cānot be any seruice done to God.

I like not when men will spye a mote in another mans eye.

Our Sauiour Christe doeth not forbid to espie a mote in an other mans eye, for we are commaunded to admonish one an other, what soeuer it bee wherein we doe amisse: but such as you, which can not abyde to be admonished, doe euer al­leadge that saying of Christe, as though hee had spoken it vnto this ende, that one should not admonish an other. It is a [...]oule hypocrisie for a man to be curious in re­proouing small faultes in other, and make [Page] no conscience of great and foule vices in him selfe. Euerie man ought to looke vnto him­selfe, and euery man is bound by the woorde of God, and charitie, to looke vnto others, and to conuert them from their sinnes if they can. To conuert a sinner from going astray, and to saue a soule from death. As S. Iames speaketh. Chap. 5. vers. 20. And so to couer a multitude of sinnes, is a blessed thing, and ought, to moue men with diligence to vse charitable admonition.

If they woulde doe it in charitie, I could like of it: but men haue no loue, they doe it because they are precise and cap­tious.

Let a man see yee commit any foule crime, and reproue yee, your aun­swere is by and by, yee may not iudge: when as the matter is plaine and doth iudge it selfe: Now when a man doth admonishe you, according as God commaundeth, yee are bolde with the same mouth, which saide, ye ought not to iudge, for to iudge him, affirming that he doth it of a captious and quarrelling minde: the thing being so exceeding good of it selfe: who made you able for to see into the heart of a man, and [Page 66] to find that he doth it not well. You are those of whom the Prophet speaketh, Woe be vnto those which call good euill, and euill good, If he be a man spotted with vices himselfe, & doth reprooue another, not caring for to a­mende, ye may boldly say he doth it of an e­uill minde: for can he be charitable vnto o­ther men, to seeke their conuersion, and not to bee charitable vnto himselfe to seeke his owne saluation: Or can he hate vngodlinesse in other, and not hate it in himselfe?

Well, the best of vs all may bee amended, wée haue all infirmittes: what would yée haue more then this, at the last for to call for mercy: If a man be sorie and aske God forgiuenes, is hée not euen as well as they which are the most precise: the mer­cie of GOD must saue all: and what would yée haue a man care for more then to bée sa­ued: I praye God I may haue time to re­pent in the ende.

Here is good stuffe, here is sound diuinitie: I may well terme this reason euen the porter of hell, for it openeth euen the wi­dest▪ gate, that a thousande may goe in on a ranke.

This is true, that the best of vs all may be [Page] amended, and that we haue all infirmities: but yee doe wickedly applye it, for when yee should reason thus, the best may be ameded, the most holy are spotted, and therefore as Saint Paule doth teach, they must indeuour for to proceede forwarde: for the woorde of God willeth men to striue and contend euen against all vncleanesse, and neuer to cease, but to come as nigh perfection as is possible. But you reason quite contrary, that because the best are sinners, therefore men are to make small account to amende. Ye should think thus, the most godly haue neede to sorrowe and mourne, and proceede in repentaunce, therefore howe much neede, haue suche as are grosse sinners. For our Sauiour Christ doth shew, Iohn 8. That whosoeuer com­mitteth sinne, is the seruaunt of sinne: Nowe so long as a man is the seruaunt of sinne, so long is hee not the seruant of God, for no man can serue two so contrary ma­sters. Saint Iohn sayeth, he that commit­teth sinne, is of the Diuell. Where learned yee this, that a man may continue in his vi­ces all his life, and at the last call for mercy? God commaundeth men to repent speede­ly, and not to put of from day to day? Hee [Page 67] threatneth exceeding sharpely, in the first Chapter of the Prouerbs, that when hee hath called and cryed vnto men for to re­turne from their euill waies, and they haue refused, that at the last, they shall call and not be hearde: hee will laugh when their destruction commeth vppon them: they shall seeke him, but not finde him. Doe you thinke that when God hath called and wee refuse, that we shall not call and he re­fuse?

The scripture sayth, that what time soeuer a sinner doth repente him of his sinne, God will forgiue him.

Zelot. If the scripture speake any thing to the comfort of the sorowfull heart, the Deuill doth teache the impenitent for to abuse it to their hardening. It is most true that at what time soeuer a sinner doth re­pent, his sinnes are all forgiuen, but is it in a mans choise for to repent when hee will, can hee take a newe heart when it doth please him can he haue the newe birth, and a ryght spirite when he will? It is God which doth create a man a new, or maketh him a new creature in Christ, when it pleaseth him. A man needeth, not for to care for any thing but to be saued, but that is not so easie a [Page] matter as men thinke. Striue for to enter in at the straight gate (sayth Christ) for manye shall striue and shall not enter. The waie is narowe and the gate is straight whiche lea­deth vnto life, and fewe there bee which find it: and if this be true whiche you say, that a man may liue in sinne all his life, and at the last be saued euen for vtteling a fewe wordes: Then the way is broad and easie, who cannot finde it, who almost doeth not walke in it▪ But alas, it is a broken staffe whiche men doe leane vnto. God is verie mercifull, but not to those which despise his Gospell, for ven­geance belongeth vnto such: it is vnpossible (sayth the holy Ghost. Hebr. 2.) that suche shoulde escape. And although ye haue neuer so long time to repent, if God doe not worke it in yee, you shall die in that blindnesse and hardnesse of heart in whiche yee haue liued: wee must seeke in our life time to bee begot­ten by the worde: for the scripture saith God doth beget his children by that.

Shall not man hope for to re­pent at the last?

Marke what repentance is: and try whether yee can repent nowe, it ye can­not, what moueth yee to thinke that yee shalt be able then?

I hope I doe repent now, and shal doe at the ende.

Repentance is a returning home vnto God from all euill vices and corrupte desires which are in the flesh and in the heart. To be renued by repentaunce, cannot be but where a man is renued in knowledge, for that is one part of the image of GOD which must be restored in vs: Reade in the 4. Chap­ter to the Ephe. from the 17. verse forwarde. If a man continue in darkenesse, he doth not repent: He which committeth his foule sinns still, although it bee but in the desire of his heart, hath not repented. He which doth not feele sorrowe and griefe, and hath not a bro­ken and contrite heart, and a sorowfull spi­rite, hath not repented: hee which doth not eschue euill and doe good, hath not repen­ted: All these are taught by the worde, for that is it by whiche wee must clense, our wayes: and therefore yee may boldly say, that he which learneth not out of Gods woorde to repent, cannot repent: for although if it were possible hee coulde repent for all other sinnes, yet this one sinne, to set light by the instruction of the Gospell, will make still worse then they of Sodome, as our Sauiour doth tell vs▪ Math. 11.

Will you condemne those whiche call for mercy at their ende whiche neuer re­pented before?

Wee may not pronounce vppon any one man, because GOD onely seeth what is in man. But yet wee may boldely goe so farre as the worde of God doeth leade vs: and by it wee may see what GOD requi­reth and what God doeth condemne. We may see that the common and generall re­pentaunce which all professe at their ende is not so muche as a shadowe of true repen­taunce: repentance cannot be in a man, espe­cially vppon a sodaine, but he must needes feele a wonderfull chaunge in hym selfe: he must needes bee able for to say I haue re­pented, I knowe and feele that I am a newe man, and therefore because I knowe most cer­tainely that there is repentaunce in mee, I knowe most certainely that I shall be saued: for GOD promiseth saluation vnto eue­rye one whiche doeth repent. In the com­mon repentance men feele no such thing: But are stil (as they may be well enough) in doubt of saluation.

Shall not all such as call vppon God be heard? surely I dare not but thinke they shall.

I am sure because the Lorde doth speake it. That whosoeuer doth call vppon him shall bee saued. But yet yee must put this in, that then they must pray in fayth, as for the prayers of a wicked man which doth not repent, and therefore hath not the true faith they are no prayers before GOD, al­though hee crie lowde, or call neuer so of­ten: for vnto such the Lorde speaketh in the first Chapter of the Prophete Isaiath, When yee stretch forth your handes, I will turne a­way mine eyes from yee. Also if yee multiplie your prayer I will not heare. Likewise the holy Ghost saieth by Solomon in the Pro­uerbes that the sacrifice of the wicked is an abhomination. And in the same booke it is said. He that turneth away his eare from hearing the lawe, euen his prayer shall bee abhominable, and therefore in the latter ende of the fourth Chapter of Ecclesiastes, he aduiseth men when they come into the house of GOD, to take heed to their fe [...]ete: and to bee readier to heare then to offer the sacrifice of fooles. For (saith he) they knowe not that they do euill. Nowe ye shall finde many m [...]n▪ [...]rye in their miseries and make great confession of their vngodly life: but yet without true repentaunce, as it is mani­fest, [Page] for so soone as the prosper againe, yee shall see them returne to their olde by as: if they had truely repented, then shoulde it e­uer continue with them, manie that liue in malice, so soone as they be daungerously sicke, will be readie to aske forgiuenesse, and to forgiue all the worlde. They knowe it booteth not to beare malice anie longer, but so long as they be able to craulle out of their bedde, and to stande vppon their legges, yee shall see their olde withered ma­lice (as it seemed) spring a fresh againe, which is a strong proofe, that they neuer truely repented, howsoeuer they thought they did. And euen so is it in all other sinnes, they seeme vnto men for to re­pent, they aske▪ GOD forgiuenesse, but yet the hearte abideth still the same that it was before God: there is no chaunge in them before God: they haue not put of the sinne­full bodie of the fleshe: there is no chaunge in them before God: howesoeuer they seeme to be chaunged before men. This coun­terfet repentance maketh men bolde all their life to despise the holy worde of God, which shoulde instruct and guide them: it causeth them at their ende not to feare the wrath of God, no [...] the vengeance to come: because [Page 70] they thinke GOD is satisfied with this re­pentaunce, and also because they knowe not their sinnes, they suppose that they are but ouer the shoes, when as they are drowned in the goulfe of vncleannesse ouer heade and [...]ares.

God helpe vs if it bée thus how shall poore men doe then?

Men must applie them selues all their life to seeke for the knoweledge of GOD, to increase in saith and repentaunce, that when they come to their ende, they may haue a testimonie of conscience, that they haue feared God.

Likewise, when yee come to a sicke man and aske howe hee doeth, if he can but say, as it pleaseth GOD, yee aunswere, that is enough neighbour, holde yee there: If he say I haue offended GOD, and I praye GOD haue mercie vppon mee, there nee­deth no more as you thinke. Yee shoulde teache them the Lawe, that they may see howe they haue offended God, yee shoulde shewe them the fearefull curse, and horrible [...]gea [...] due vnto sinne, that so they may [...]ken with remo [...]e and sorrowe▪ yee shoulde shewe them also the glad tidings of the Gospell, and what Christe offereth [Page] vnto the penitent sinner: yee shoulde teache them what holines GOD requireth at their hande, howe they may come vnto it, what promise they haue made vnto GOD of it in baptisme. Yee shoulde instruct them in all the principall pointes of the fayth. That so they may haue the renewing faith which shal iustifie and saue them.

What difference can you shewe betweene those whiche are taught as you woulde haue them and such as haue know­ledge, they can no more but repent, call for mercie, and beleeue? And this doe they aswell as the other.

You thinke there is no diffe­rence, but there is this difference, that the one part doeth beleeue and repent in deede, and the other but in woord: as our Sauiour Christ Matth. 15. alleadgeth the saying of God by his Prophete. This people drawe neere mee with their mouth, and honour me with their lippes, but their heart is farre from mee.

That is meant when a man doth speake with his mouth, and meaneth not with his heart, but these haue a good meaning in their minde.

It is meant when a man appro­cheth [Page 71] with his mouth, and hath still a wicked heart, and an euill conscience, for those do remooue a man so farre from God, that no blind intent can make him neere vnto him. God looketh for great things in the heartes of those which call vpon him.

I thinke God accepteth the pray­er of the honest poore man as well as of any other, and will heare him as soone, as hee will heare the prayer of those which knowe most, and are the best learned.

God is no accepter of persons, hee heareth the poore as well as the riche, the vnlearned as well as the learned, so that their prayers bee made aright. But if yee speake of those honest men which are so cal­led, & yet are voide of all knowledge of Gods woorde, and of religion, it is an easie mat­ter for to prooue that their prayers are not good.

Can yee haue anye better prayer then the Lordes prayer, when they praye that, can ye require more?

There can be no better prayer then the Lordes prayer, and he which pray­eth that right must needes bee saued. But let mee aske you this question, what if a man pray the Lordes prayer with his mouth [Page] and regardeth it not in his heart, shal his prai­er be good?

His prayer cannot be good, he doth but mocke God.

Then tell me this, a man prayeth thus, hallowed be thy name, in worde he see­meth to desire that the name of God may be sanctified and honoured: he goeth his way, and blasphemeth the name of GOD, or heareth it blasphemed and neuer careth, rayleth vpon his worde, dishonoureth him, doe yee not thinke that hee made a sweete preyer? In the like maner he saith, thy will bee done in earth as it is in heauen, he goeth away and is so farre from desiring to do the will of God, that hee neuer careth for to knowe it. Whereby it is euident that he little ment with his heart that which he said with his tongue.

Moreouer, hee would seeme in woordes to craue of God, that hee and others might doe the will of God in earth, as the Angels doe in heauen: and yet tell him when hee breaketh the will of God, and his aunswere is, I am not so precise, I am not so curious, I will not bee so holy, you are full of the spi­rite: and then hee will euen reproche that [Page 72] which he seemed for to pray for. And these are the prayers of those poore honest men which you thinke God heareth as well as the prayers of any other. I might goe thorough all the petitions and finde the like. It is excee­ding great pitie that men want instruction: for a great multitude doe trust to their prat­ling prayers, when as they doe not either vn­derstand what they lay, or els meane the con­trary.

If a man labour all the wéeke truely and honestly, and vppon the Sabboth day come to the Churche and make his pray­ers, shall wée say God regarded not his pray­er, because hée doeth not vnderstande what he prayeth: his intent is good, hee doth his good will: hee hath a wife and children to prouide for, hee must followe the worlde, and let preaching goe, or else hee shall begge: and so longe as hee doth hurte no man, but dealeth vprightly: I thinke God doeth re­quire no more at his handes. Such as haue naught else for to doe let them séeke for know­ledge.

Yee are like vnto a hedge which is full of bryers and pricking thornes, a man cannot lay holde on yee vnlesse yee bring [Page] his hedging gloues, and his bill. Yee haue many thinges to shroude your selfe vnder, and to keepe the truth from touching of ye, as the Lorde in his worde hath set foorth the whole armour for a Christian souldier: so likewise Satan doth by suggestion teache men to arme themselues against the Lorde. But ye must be stript of your armour, at the least ye must be shewed that it is no armour of proofe. Ye say that if a man labour trulye & honestly all the weeke, those labour so which do it not alone for necessitie, but be­cause God requireth that men should pain­fully trauell: and which haue the woord of God as a lanterne for to guide their steppes: for what soeuer a man doth, if it bee not in obedience of God in his worde, it is sinne. To pray vpon the Sabboth for fashion sake, is very detestable, because we are in continu­all danger, and in continuall neede, and want helpe continually from the Lorde, vppon whome our saluation doeth dayly depende: we are commaunded to pray continually, or to haue our heartes watching thereunto. To pray without vnderstanding, is not pray­ing, but mumming. You speake as though it were a thing which God doth allowe, that men should seeke more after the world them [Page 73] after God: & so make the world their God. And because they haue wife and children to prouide for, therfore they cannot seeke to know God. As though we were not comman­ded to seeke first, the kingdome of God, that is to seeke that chiefly, and more then the worlde, and then GOD hath promised, that all these things shall be cast vpon vs. Howe shall any man be excused when God maketh this promise vnto all: as he doth perfourme it vnto as many as doe trust him. I haue been young (saith the Prophet) and nowe am old, yet did I neuer see the righteous forsakē, and his feede begging their bread. When ye say hee must follow the worlde, and let prea­ching goe, ye were euen as good say, hee must follow the Deuill, and let God go. And if an ignorant man coulde come so farre as to deale vp rightly, and to hurt no man nei­ther in woorde nor neede, (which notwith­standing they come nothing neere) yet this woulde not serue the turne: for there is a God who will be knowne and woorshipped in that religion which he teacheth. Haue ye so fleshly eyes that ye can looke no higher? Doe ye thinke God requireth no more but an honest and ciuill conuersation towardes [Page] men. God requireth euen of the poore la­bouring man that he should (if he will be bles­sed) meditate in his Law, or his doctrine day and night. Psalme 1. Likewise when he saith that the man is blessed which feareth the Lord, to the ende we might know which that man is, he addeth immediatly, he hath great delight in his commaundements. But the most part of your honest men nowe a dayes, delight so much in the word of God, and me­ditate so much in it, that they care not a but­ton though they neuer heare it: they loue it and set as much by it as they doe by an old shoe. And are not so forwarde as you doe allowe, to seeke for the knowledge of God, when they haue naught els for to doe: for you thinke yee graunt a liberall allowance to God.

Would yée make me beléeue that God doeth require that men shoulde leaue their businesse: when they be poore and haue charge of children, and giue themselues to reaping, and hearing of preachinges. Would yée haue him let his children sterue?

God doth not require that men should leaue their businesse, but as they haue times to seeke for the thinges of the body, [Page 74] so also are there times, for to seeke for hea­uenly thinges: God hath not made men for this life, but for the worlde to come. He hath set the promises of eternall life before them that seeke thē painfully in his worde, men must not be as bruite beastes all for the belly.

What if there bee no preaching where a man dwelleth?

What if there be within three or foure mile?

Shall hée runne thrée or foure mile after that:

Yee goe about three or foure mile to the market for to prouide meate for the carion body, but yee woulde not allowe a man vppon that daye whiche is the market day for the foode of the soule to goe halfe so farre. Yee are the children of the worlde, earth, wormes, those whiche labour for the meate which perisheth, but will not laboure for the meate whiche indureth for euer. Iohn. 6. Yee loue the worlde and the things which are in the world, and therfore as Saint Iohn sayth in his first Epistle, The loue of the Father is not in ye, ye cannot serue God and Mammon.

Let them runne that will, when [Page] I see them agree better together, then I wil heare them: when they cannot agree among themselues, they are vnwise which hearken vnto them.

Ye might be a counsellour for your graue wisedome, who is able to aun­sweare you in this matter: when yee dash forth so strong an argument grounded vpon so great reason, and infallible principles: but I pray ye what woulde ye haue done if ye had liued in the time of Ieremie the prophet, and also of other Prophets, when there were the Priestes and the rulers in the temple, with many which tooke vpon thē to be prophets, and to speake in the name of the Lord, set a­gainst a few of Gods messēgers? What would yee haue doone when Christ preached, and the Pharisees and Priestes, and all the learned against him? Would yee not haue hearde Paule, because he disagreed with the false A­postles? The Scriptures haue foretolde that there shall be heresies, sectes, and false tea­chers in the Churche euen to the worldes ende. Your great skill hath taught yee to make so good a choyce of the time when yee wil heare, and to take so long a day, for I war­rant yee it will not be two weekes before [Page 75] the day of doome. Ye shoulde speake plaine­ly and say. Yee neuer meane for to heare, and that ye woulde wishe all other for to bee of the same minde: and then ye shoulde be little troubled with Gods woord. Crie out against the preachers, but let your meaning be against preaching it selfe. The Diuel is a very skilfull woorkeman, he doth not teach his schollers to say, fie vpon Gods woorde: but to finde excuses how to shift themselues from hearing the same.

If they woulde teache men howe to beleeue better, then I coulde be content for to saye as you saye: But they woulde driue men into dispayre, and bring them out of beliefe with the feare of dam­nation.

This wedge hath been driuen often enough alreadie, neuerthelesse, be­cause yee are so knottie, and crabbed a peece to cleeue, I will giue it one blowe more: the matter is hainously taken that men preache sharpely in reprehending the vices whiche nowe raine. They are nowe saide to preach nothing but the Lawe, which in deede can­not conuert a man from vngodlynesse, but of it selfe is the strength of sinne: they are [Page] saide to be murtherers, because they preache but the dead letter whiche doeth kill. No doubt whosoeuer doth preache no more but the Lawe, and so damnation, is no mini­ster of Christ. But here lyeth all the mat­ter, men woulde be flattered and soothed in their sinnes, they are loth for to here of a­ny iudgement of God against wickednesse: and as they bee like vnto the people of the Iewes when the Prophetes were sent vnto them, corrupt and corrupting themselues, and grudging againste the Messengers of God when they threatened vengeance, and willing them not to preache so, but to preache pleasunt thinges: euen so are there nowe whiche lay pillowes vnder their el­bowes and preache peace, peace, when all is corrupt in their liues, and therefore there can bee no peace. Hee whiche shall reade the Prophetes, shall finde the state of the Churche then, and ours nowe, in all these thinges verie like: First, all foule vices ouer slowing, as among vs: Secondly, the people presuming vppon their blinde faith, and counterfet repentaunce, and hypocriti­call prayers, as they doe nowe: Thirdely, the Prophetes sent of God exceeding sharpely [Page 76] reproouing them, and denouncing the iudgementes of God against them: Fourth­ly, the people repining there at, and thin­king them selues hardely dealte withall: de­siring to bee more tenderly handeled as to heare pleasaunt thinges, and to haue them prophesie of wine and strong drinke: Last­ly, certaine Preachers sit for the turne, hea­ling vp, and smoothing vp all with sweete woordes, and telling them all is well, all is well. Hee which doeth but lightly reade ouer the Prophetes, and cannot finde all these thinges, is but a simple man. In like man­ner, he whiche doeth dwell among vs at this day, and perceiueth no such matters, is but a straunger.

Naye you that are precise Pu­ritans doe finde faulte where there is none: you condemne men for euery trifle.

Whereas ye are but men, and haue your infirmities as well as other: yet yee woulde make your selues as holye as An­gels.

I abhorre the errour of the Ca­theristes or Puritans, I confesse that I am loden with corruptions: if that be your meaning, to charge mee with that opinion, which is wicked and diuelishe. But if yee [Page] take the name Puritane for one which hath more care to obey God, then the common sort, and therefore laboureth to keepe him­selfe pure and vnspotted of the worlde (as Saint Iames speaketh) then looke to it, that yee be not founde among those which re­uile not men but God. If ye meane by pre­cise men, those which are so scrupulous, as to make sinne where there is none, as your wordes doe playnely shewe, then doe I vtter­ly renounce that name for to be called pre­cise, and I disalowe such fond persons, who­soeuer they bee. But I knowe you meane those which walke precisely as Saint Paule willeth, and doe take heede to their waies: not condemning men, but admonishing them, not in trifles, but in waightie mat­ters: although you count them trifles. The commaundementes of God (at the least some of them) are but trifles with you. You see not, nor consider how greate the Lorde God is, and therefore ye dare affirme diuers sinnes done against him to be but trifling and small, ye measure not sinne with a true measure, when ye doe measure it after the rule of a man. Ye doe not knowe wherefore there is eternall death threat­ned against euerie small sinne: yee mar­uell [Page 77] at that, because yee are blinde and can­not iudge howe great he is, whose will is diso­beyed. Let me set it before ye: Doe ye not sup­pose that if one of your degree shoulde say some thing against yee that were a reproch, as for example, call ye knaue, were it not an of­fence?

I thinke I may well say hee doth offende, for he ought not to deale so with his neighbour.

Then hee is worthie some rebuke for his euil tongue?

Yea, and to confesse his faulte al­so.

What if he shoulde giue such lan­guage to a Iustice of peace? or to some in­feriour Magistrate? Ye will confesse the fault is greater: because it is against a higher per­son?

No doubt the fault should be grea­ter, and hée were woorthie to sit by the héele [...] for it.

What if he shoulde doe it to a noble man, as one of the chiefe Counsel­lours of the Prince, were it not then muche greater?

I must needes confesse so: and such a villaine were woorthie for to lose his [...]ares.

What if hee should doe it vnto a Prince?

Hée were worthie then for to lose his life.

Doe ye not knowe that GOD is in an infinite degree aboue Princes, they are but dust before him?

I know that well enough.

Wherefore haue yee not the rea­son then for to consider, that those sinnes which seeme to bee verie small, are excee­ding great, because they bee done against his infinite Maiestie. the ignorance of this point causeth manye men for to make but alight account of diuers sinnes, and euen to laugh at them: likewise to mocke at those whiche make conscience of them, counting them ouer precise and nice. Such men doe not knowe the Lorde aright in his most high maiestie: They knowe not the waightinesse of his lawe, euen in the leaste point in it. And it is ouer childishe whiche they obiect against the godlye, haue not you infirmities? are you not men? What woulde they gather hereby, that because men haue infirmities, therefore they may not re­proue such as wilfully and carelesly offende. The rest of your speech is a meere slaunder, a [Page 78] deuice whiche the Deuill hath founde out for to shame true godlinesse. For let a man haue but the tenth part of the zeale, whiche the woorde of God requireth, or neuer so litle a sparke of indeuour for to walke vp­rightly, and he shall haue it castin his teeth, that hee thinketh him selfe halfe a God, and taketh him selfe to be as holy as an An­gell.

A number doe so indeede, or else they would not bee so readie for to checke e­uerie man: and estéeme so well of them selues.

Doeth that bone sticke in your throte still, take heede that it doe not choke yee. Yee take it for a sore checke, when any doth refuse to take part with you in your wickednesse: following the counsell of Saint Paule, when he sayth, haue no fellowship with the vnfruitefull woorkes of darkenesse, but rather reprooue them. Light is come into the worlde, and men loue darkenesse more then light, because their woorkes bee euill. Howe well they esteeme of them selues you can not tell: this is most certaine, that although a godlie manne hath nothing of his owne for to boast of, because it is the grace of the Lorde, whiche hathe putte [Page] the difference, yet yee may well thinke better of him selfe, then of the wicked. And such as haue no regard to serue God but in a fewe wordes.

Doe yée thinke that there be none which are ouer precise: which woulde séeme for to be so holy, and yet are not.

The Diuell is a cunning woorke­man, when he seeketh for to bring the trueth into discredite, he can play on both hands, hee can deceiue on euery side. And there­fore he hath some vaine and curious braines which are ouer precise in thinges whiche are no sinne, passing by foule and great sinnes in themselues, which is a great vanitie, and vnder colour of godly zeale, which they would seeme for to haue, they couer their bitternesse euen of wormewood, and Gall: which vncharitablie sometimes they caste foorth vppon such as are more Godly then them selues. But this ought not for to bee any discredite vnto suche as are zealous and earnest against those thinges whiche are vi­ces in deede, although they seeme for to bee neuer so small: as for example, when one doth sweare as you did, by his faith, or by bread, or fire: tell him of it: what is his an­swere: ye are ouer precise: I meane no hurte [Page 79] neither to God nor men: I speake earnestly, I doe not lie: If it bee a sinne, it is but a small sinne. But see how grosse an excuse this is, he breaketh the commaundement of God, and yet he meaneth no hurt: Christ our great teacher doth straightly vrge it, and yet hee saith it is but a small sinne, a thing not to be regarded. How much dishonour is this to our heauenly Master, to say that hee taught things so small and trifling, that they are not to be regarded?

Well, it is happie that we shalbe saued by faith in Christ, although we bée sinnefull: hee hath shead his blood for vs: I lookefor to be saued by him, what would yée haue more?

It is happie in deede for those which haue faith, for they are cleansed from their sinnes. But such as you seeke no more but to make the death of Christe as an easie score to set all vppon: for yee are like to the man which thinking that hee should haue all of his hostis for scoring vp, tooke very libe­rally: ye thinke the reckoning is now so ea­sie, that ye may set cocke a howpe, all is paide for. But if I shoulde trie your faith by the woorde, ye should see that yee haue little e­nough: and therefore your score will faile in [Page] the end, and grow to a greater payment then ye suppose.

Whatsoeuer you say, yée shal ne­uer driue mee from beléeuing in Christ: nor all the sort of yee.

I would not for tenne thousande worldes be the man which should driue any one from the faith in Christe, I doe seeke to bring ye vnto the faith in Christ.

Yee may kéepe such seeking to your selfe, and let me alone: I beléeue as well as you, take care for your selfe, you shall not answere for me.

Nowe ye are sure I trowe, for this night, ye haue stopped my mouth, and gi­uen me a bone to gnawe vpon. But I pray ye shall not I answeare for you in no respect? What if I see ye are blinde and ready for to fall into the pit of eternall destruction, and will not put foorth my hande for to succour ye, is it not to be laid vnto my charge, that I wanted loue? Therefore I can easily pull your bridle out of my mouth: and bee so bold as for to meddle with ye: wee will a lit­tle trie, because ye bragge so stoutly, howe well yee beleeue. Ye beleeue Christ was cru­cified, and suffred vpon the Crosse: but are yee able for to prooue that yee beleeue in [Page 80] Christ crucified?

I say I doe, are you able for to disprooue me?

Sinne is not slaine in ye, therfore ye do not.

Howe prooue yée that sinne is not slaine in mee?

Because it doth raigne in ye, ther­fore it is aliue.

I knowe not what yee meane by that.

Yee are ledde by sinne, ye delight in it, ye haue not mortified the lusts and con­cupiscences of the same. And therefore yee haue not learned Christ, as S. Paule speaketh. Ephesians 4. Ye haue not put of the old man, and put on the new man. The death and pas­sion of Christ hath not slaine sinne in yee, for to beleeue in Christ crucified, is for to be cru­cified with him, as the Apostles doe teach in sundry places. The reason is this, Christe was not crucified for to slay sinne in him self, (for he had none) but in his members, which are ioyned and knit vnto him by faith, in them the force & power of his death doth shew it selfe: nowe he which hath not this worke of the death of Christ in him, that hee feeleth [Page] himselfe crucified concerning the body of sinne, his faith in the passion of Christ is but a dead faith, and cannot saue him. This is the cause why S. Paule faith, Rom. 8. That those which are in Christ, walke not after the fleshe, but after the spirite. S. Iohn saith, 1. Epistle, cha. 3. Ye know that he was made manifest to take away our sinnes, & in him was no sinne. Whosoeuer abideth in him sinneth not, he that sinneth hath not seene him, nor knowne him.

Then by that reason, yee woulde prooue that all that beleeue in Christ are perfect without sinne. I thinke all are sin­ners.

Whosoeuer is borne of God sin­neth not. 1. Iohn. 3. 9.

Is there any man which can saye that hee is without sinne?

Not one which liueth in this flesh.

Then yee are contrarie vnto your selfe: for euen nowe yee sayde. That whoso­euer abideth in Christ sinneth not, and hée which is borne of God sinneth not: and now ye confesse that all are sinners so long as they liue.

I am not contrarie vnto my selfe [Page 81] but your blindnesse causeth ye for to thinke so. Looke in the Epistle to the Romaines Chapter 7. and there ye shall find how S. Paule coupleth both these things together in himselfe, which you iudge to bee so cou­trary, that by no meanes they may be founde in one man together at one time. He confes­seth that there was a lawe in his members, rebelling against the law of his mind, and lea­ding him captiue to the law of sinne. And yet a litle before in the same Chapter hee saieth, That he did not commit the euill, but sinne which dwelt in him. The reason which he maketh is, that hee did consent vnto the law, and would haue doone the good, but he did the euill which he hated. To make the matter plaine, thus it is. Saint Paule was rege­nerate, but yet not in full perfection, for the remnaunt of sinne did abide in him: that which the part regenerate did, or coueted to doe, or consented vnto, that he saith he did: and that which the corruption which did still remaine in him, forced him for to doe, that he saith he did not, but sinne which dwelled in him. Hee doth esteeme himselfe in the part regenerate, he counteth the rem­naunts of the old man, to be but as excre­ments, or as a dead carion, which did abide [Page] in him, and anoy him. His delight and de­sire was vppon the good, he hated the euill, and therefore when he did sinne, because it was against his consent, and against his will, it was no obedience which hee gaue vnto it: he did not therefore serue sinne, neyther did sin raygne ouer him, but exercise a certayne [...]iranny ouer him, which he coulde not speake of.

I know not what yée meane when yée haue saide what yée can, all must bee sinners.

Yee may very easily perswade me to beleeue that ye know not what I meane: If your fiue wits were fifteene, they woulde helpe nothing in this case. Because ye know not what this meaneth, yee know not what faith in Christ crucifyed meaneth, ye know not what repentaunce meaneth, yee can see no difference of sinners: all are sinners say you, and the death of Christ is that whiche saueth, not considering that the death of Christ first killeth those whom it maketh a­liue. For this cause men are greatlye ouer­shot oftentimes, when they come vnto a sicke man, they thinke if he say, I beleeue Christe died for my sinnes, and shed his blood for me, that then all is aswell as may be. If it were [Page 82] faith in deed in the blood of Christ, they must needes be in good case: for al that be­leeue in him, shalbe saued. But they stay vpon a bare fantasie, which is a dead & weak faith, not making them to feele the power of the death of Christe. Ignoraunce is so deepely set­led in mens mindes, that let a man be neuer so wicked, neuer so far from true knowledge of God, if he can make but some general cō ­fession, they neuer looke further. And because they see almost all, (howesoeuer they liue) find this, it maketh them also to be carelesse, and neuer for to thinke of the newe birth, of which Christe speaketh, when he sayeth vnto Nicodemus: except a man be borne againe, he cannot see the kingdome of God: This newe byrth is shut out at the doores, & there­fore no doubt God doth shutte them out of his kingdome which make no account of it.

Make your selfe neuer so skilfull, yet yée cannot tell which man God saueth and which he condemneth.

It is not the will of God, that wee should take vpon vs for to pronounce vppon any man, and to say he is damned: because we must leaue the secrete counsell of God vnto himselfe, who is not bounde vnto vs, to giue any account of his doings. But I pray yee let [Page] vs a litle consider howe this headlesse bolte of yours is shotte foorth against true godly­nesse. Thus you reason, no man can tell who are saued, and who are damned, therefore we are not for to care for tryall of our faith and repentance: and that therfore the rules which are giuen in the word of God in these points are nothing worth. Euery man may searche and know in him selfe, whether he be in good case or not: and we ought euery one for to trie our selues by that whiche the woord tea­cheth so plentifully. I woulde wishe yee to consider what the cause is why the greatest multitude goe to destruction: euen because they knowe not these thinges, & therefore see not the great danger which they be in, but can boldly beare themselues in hād that they shall doe well enough. Manye doe laugh e­uen in the middest of destruction, I meane that they can sport them selues euen in do­ing those thinges which are their bane: and all because they trust to this beliefe whiche you bragge of. For as on the one side true faith & true repentance, and conuersion vnto God, doe salue all the sores and sicknesses of the soule: euen so the common dead faith & counterfet repentāce may be called the diuels [Page 83] plaister by which he doth a litle in the toppe, for a time, salue the deepe and deadly woūds, but they rancle within, and bring vtter de­struction. It is great pitie that the woorde of God is not laide open in all places, that the people might come to the vnderstanding of Christ and his power, in translating them out of the power of darkenesse, into his king­dome of light: which is wrought with great and diligent teaching, because men are made of a dull metall, and hard to conceiue spiritual and heauenly things.

Well, I must leaue yee now: yee haue delt very hardly with me: it were good that you Puritanes shoulde consider your selues, & become better subiects to y ^e Prince.

I am like to haue a very good farewell at your handes, for all my trauell in teaching yee. But I looked for none other re­warde from yee: the blacke Moore can not change his hewe, nor the Cat of the moun­taine her spottes. I must suffer your reproch, for if they haue called the good man of the house Beelzebub, howe much more those which be of his houshold.

Those which consider not them selues, are worse then madd men: I told ye before, that I doe not allowe that vice. For your slaun­derous [Page] accusation, I scorne and defie it: I may boldely take the Lorde as a witnesse vn­to my conscience, that I doe honour and o­bey the prince, and that I doo condemne, hate, and accurse all disobedience vnto the higher powers. But this hath euer bin the readie way which the diuell hath vsed for too bring those which feare God into hatred: by his instrumentes to charge them for too be enemies vnto Princes. Christ was accu­sed of treason, and condemned as an enemie to Caesar.

Saint Paul diuers times, was thought to bee a man which did trouble the state. And who­soeuer shall reade the auncient stories of the Churche, shall finde that this continued still from time to time.

Are not there many which coūt thē ­selues very holy, & yet breake the Quéenes lawes?

What if it should fall out, as it doth fall out some times, that godly Princes command some thing which is contrary vn­to Gods word, should we obey God or men? It is a very grosse thing to thinke that a man for obeying God doeth disobey his Prince. I would know this also, whether the breach of euery particular lawe, doeth make a man [Page 84] by and by an euill subiect to his Prince? if it shoulde, I thinke true subiectes might soone be numbred. Likewise, I would know this, whether a man whiche is disobedient vnto God and despiseth his lawes, can for conscience sake be obedient vnto his prince? Hauing bin found vnfaithfull too God, shall he be iudged faithfull to men? And where as such as you crye out against those whiche professe the Gospell, that they breake the Queens lawes, & are not the Queenes friēds? I answere ye thus. I will aduenture all that I haue, that let proofe be made, and those which haue this most in their mo [...]thes the Queenes lawes, the Queenes lawes, as thogh they were altogether made of obedience, shal­be found to breake two for their one, whom they accuse. If ye did crie out in this matter moued with a good cōscience, then would ye be carefull for to keepe the lawes yourselues, and if ye haue care of princes laws, thē would ye haue care of Gods lawes.

Wherein can yée accuse me?

I meane not to accuse you, but to speake that which I know by a nūber, they breake her maiesties lawes in their apparell, in their meate, in their woordes beeing blas­phemers and raylers, in quarrelling & figh­ting, in dicing and carding, & bowilng, and [Page] in manie such like. And because ye speake of­ten of this, who are the Queenes friendes? I saye none but suche as feare God: for the wicked & vngodly do prouoke God vnto an­ger against the realme, and doe procure the destruction of it, God heareth the prayers of such as feare and loue his lawes, when they cry vnto him for their Prince: therfore there can be no more vtter enemies vnto Princes, then such as are wicked against God. Nowe this is a verie preposterous thinge, that you which are rebels against God shoulde beare men in hande that yee bee the friendes of the prince, & that suche as are godlie, they must be counted enemies.

I can say no more but god blesse and saue her.

Amen. I pray God for his mercye sake graūt, that we may be thankful for those exceeding great blessings which he hath by her heaped vpon vs, both for bodie & soule: and the Lord giue vs louing and obedient hearts towards her. And also I beseeche God to keepe her out of the hand of her enemies, to gouerne her with his blessed spirite, that she may exalt & magnifie his glorious Gos­pell more and more, and repaire the ruines of his Church & so glorifie him in this worlde, that in the world to come she may be glorifi­ed for euer. Amen.