‘ D. BANCROFTS TEXT. 1. Iohn 4.1. Dearely beloued, beleeue not euery spirite, b [...] [...]ie the spirites, whether they be of God: For many false Prophets are gone out into the world’
ANSVVERE.

IT hath bene the ancient custome of Sathan and his instruments in all ages, I answere not the word, but the abuse of the word. to abuse the holy worde, and name of God, as a ground vnto all their vngodly proceedings against the Lorde and his Saints: that there by, they might haue some colour of their persecuti­ons, and wicked attempts against the truth and pro­fessors thereof. That I bee not tedious in a matter too apparant, hence it is, that in all the condemnati­ons of the holy Martyrs of Christ, by that Romane Tyrant: We see all their processes to begin in the name of God, & the accusasions laid to the charge of the Saints to bee so boulstred out with the testi­monies of holy Scripture, as though the spirite of God had none to condemne of heresie, scisme, se­dition and treason, saue onely the members and messengers of Christ Iesus. And therefore M. Ban­croft, if you begin with Scripture, and as I may say, in the name of God, begin to speake against God, against his blessed verity and people you doe but [Page 2]your kind, in treading the steppes of your predeces­sours: You haue your forefathers, the Scribes and Pharises, that Antichristian beast of Rome, his Car­dinals, Bishops, Legates inquisitors and all others, that haue coloured their garments, with the bloud of the Lords chosen, for your presidents and exam­ples. The delusion of your course could not bee so great, if you did shewe your selfe in your colours. Your Sermon declareth that your affection serueth you, rather to fight against the truth with fire and fa­got, then by sober writing, or speaking, to stand in the defence of your cause.

Well, you deale against false Prophetes, Scisma­tiques, giddy spirites, disturbers of the church, ene­mies to her Maiesties estate and prerogatiue. And wee on the otherside, that fauour reformation, doe from the bottome of our hearts entreat and beseech the eternall God, speedily to conuert and turne all such, if they be his, or els with speed to ouerthrowe them in his fierce wrath. And as for our selues in particular, if we, who in sincerity seeke the reforma­tion of the Church of England; be either false Pro­phets; Scismatiques, giddy spirits, disturbers of the Church, enemies vnto her Maiesties estate or per­son, we do without exception, entreat the Lorde in his fierie wrath and anger, euen this hower, to make vs visible monuments, of his great indignatiō, both in this life, and in the day of the Lord Iesus, & roote the memory of vs and ours, out of the Church and kingdome of England for euer: that our most deare Soueraigne Queene Elizabeth, may continue and end her daies, not onely in the quietnes of her own [Page 3]conscience, but also in the coniunction, quietnes, and vnion of the hearts of all her Subiects and peo­ple. And wee offer, not onely to cleare our selues, by these our voluntary protestations, made in the name and presence of the great God of heauen and erth, but euen by shewing the goodnes of our cause according vnto the worde, and answering whatsoe­uer the aduersary bringeth against vs. And what can wee doe more? Let vs then M. Bancroft see what you can say of vs, or our cause Here I omit, whatso­euer in your whol Sermon is impertinent vnto us, against whome you especially deale, and come to the eight page thereof, where at the first meeting, you doe very brotherly salute vs, by the names of false Prophets, though of your courtesie, your care not much if you omit the name.

‘ D. BANCROFT. Pag. 8. line. 10. Lastly, they are false Prophetes, who do peruert the meaning of the Scriptures, for the maintenance and defence of any false doctrine, scisme, of heresie. Herof you know, I might giue you many examples. I pray you beare with me if I set downe, one as strange in my opinion, as any to be found in a matter of no great importance. The name of false prophets, I am content in diuers respects to suppresse. The matter it selfe, which I meane, standeth in this sort. There are many nowe a daies who doe af­firme, that when Christ vsed these wordes: DTC ECCLESIAE. Math. 18 He meant hereby to establish in the Church foreuer, the same plot and forme of Ecclesiasticall Gouernement to be en [...]ct in euery parish which Moses by [...] counsell, appointed in mount Sinay: Numb. 11. and which after­ward; the [...] was did imitate in their particular Sinagogues.’
ANSVVERE.

They [...] read your Sermon, will beare you witnes, that you are sufficiently able, to afforde your auditours an example of a false teacher: And yet it were hard, to account all those to be false Pro­phets [Page 4](without exception) who peruert the mea­ning of the worde, to the maintenaunce of euery point of false doctrine. For we know, that many of the true Ministers of God, haue in the error of their iudgement, held some points of vnsound doctrine, and peruerted the meaning of the holy scripture for the maintenance of the same. To speake nothing of Cyprian, Chrisostome, Ierome, Augustme, and e­specially, Origen and Barnard who haue had euery one of them their blemishes, and wrested the word for the defence thereof: that worthy man of God, M. Luther you know, hath deliuered vniustifiable and false doctrine, concerning the manner of recei­uing of the thing signified, to wit Christ Iesus, in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper: and as it may bee truly sayde, hee hath peruerted many places of the worde, for the maintenance of this his error, yet M. Bancroft, I thinke you will not inrolle him in the catalogue of false Prophets: Wherefore, if I denied the ground and principle of your reason, and sent you again vnto your note book, for a better descrip­tion of a false Prophet, I should do nothing contra­ry vnto equity and reason. But I meane not to stand with you in a maner of so small moment: seeing, e­specially you do by this your discription, teach the reader, what account he is to make of you, and your brethren of the same crewe, who daily in your Ser­mons and writings, do wrest, peruert, and abuse the sacred word of God, for the maintenaunce of most false and pernicious doctrine, whereof it may bee, some thing shall be spoken hereafter.

But I pray you, who are they that expound the [Page 5]words of our sauiour Christ. Mat. 18. Dic ecclesiae: Tell the Church, to bee referred to the Ecclesiasti­call gouernment, which Moses by Iethroes coun­sell appointed in mount Sinai? you say they are ma­nie, why then did you not name one of them, or quote the writings of some one of them? Euen in­deed, because you are not able to father this absur­ditie vpon none of those, whome you would gladly beare the world in hand to be the maintainers ther­of. A godlesse and slanderous shift of M. Bancro [...]. And heere the reader is to bee aduertised, that a­mong many shiftes, which you haue to obscure the truth, delude your readers and auditors, and to co­lour your slanderous vntruthes, there is one where­of you make a speciall vse, and that is to charge vs with the defence of such points as wee neuer held: Thinking it sufficient for you to say, that there are many now a daies who affirme, that when our Saui­our Christ, &c. Whereas the error, as you haue set it downe, is so absurd and sencelesse, and smelleth of such grosse ignorance, as I assure my selfe, that none who haue written in the cause of reformation since the beginning of her maiesties raign, vnto this how­er, could bee so groslye ouerseene, as to conceiue, much lesse holde and maintaine any such thing as you haue vttered. For first, the officers appointed. Num. 11. (and I beseech the reader to marke) were not ordained at mount Sinai, Not at mount Sinai as you haue set down, but (as the holy Ghost expresly noteth) at Kibroth Hataauah, Numb. 11. which was 3. daies iorney from mount Sinai: compare Numb. 10.33. with Numb. 11 24.34 and 33.16. and Deut. 1.1. And therefore it is very absurd, to aduouch that the 70. Elders, mencioned [Page 6]Num. 11. were ordained at mount Sinai: and it is no lesse false to giue our, Not at the coū ­sel of Iethro that these were the officers ap­pointed by Moses at y ^e coūsel of Iethro. For Iethroes aduise was put in execution, Exod. 18.12. & 40.17. before the erecting of the Tabernacle, euen in the first year of their depar­ture out of Aegypt. The ordinance of the 70. elders, taken in hand after the setting vp of the Tabernaele, Exod. 40.17. Numb. 10.11. [...]2. & after the 20. day of the 2. moneth of the 2. yeare. Againe, the gouernours in Kibroth-Hataauah were but 70. or at the most 72. in number: the other or­dained by the counsel of Iethro, being gouerners of 1000. gouernors of 100. gouernors of 50. & gouer­nors of 10. must needs exceed that number by many degrees. Not ecclesiasti­cal. Lastly, (which is your 3. slanderous absur­ditie) who told you that the gouernment ordained in the 11. of Numbers, was Ecclesiasticall. The very place it selfe, and all the circumstances thereof doe prooue it to bee ciuill: And so our men that haue written of this argument would haue taught you, Master Cornel. Bertram de po­tialud. cap. 6. if you had sought the trueth of the cause out of their writings. The holy story it selfe, maketh the matter to bee out of controuersie, which is this in effect. Numb. 11. There grew an vniuersall murmuring a­mong the people, because they had not flesh to eat. The authoritie of the rulers ouer thousands, rulers of hundreths, &c. ordained by the aduise of Iethro, reached not beyond the number allotted vnto thē: So that the defection of the people being generall, (and it may bee, many of their rulers ioyned with them) they would not haue an answere, nor bee pa­cified by the inferior officers, but they come to Mo­ses the chiefe gouernor, & would haue him to giue [Page 7]thē flesh: Moses being sore vexed with the outcries against him, expostulateth with the Lord, thinking himselfe to be hardly delt with, that there was none apointed for y ^e restraining of the general [...]itude, but he himselfe alone: Herupon the Lord comman­ded him to gather 70. of the Elders of Israell, Verse. 16. such (saith the text) as hee knew, to be governors of the people, & the Lord would appoint thē as assistants with him, to take the generall charge of the people, y ^t when the multitude would not be ruled by their inferior officers, as the rulers of 1000. &c. these 70. elders should be armed by the Lord, with authority and gifts, to beare the burthen with him, and it was peformed accordingly.

Now M. Bancroft, for whose assistance were these Elders appointed? the word expresly setteth down, that they were to assist Moses: and therefore the offi­ces wherunto they were ordeined were ciuil; wher­as if they had bin ecclesiastical, they should haue bin appointed helpers vnto Aaron. & not vnto Moses. For Moses at this time was no more to intermedle with the priesthood, because Aaron & his sons, Num. 16.10. Exod. 28.1. were now consecrated thervnto, & the tribe of Leui allot­ted to assist Aaron, euen to take y ^e charge with him of the whole congregation, Numb 3.7. in respect of the tabernacle The last time y ^t euer Moses dealt in the office of the priesthood, was at the consecration of Aaron & his sons, but frō the time that Aaron was receued in to y ^e office, Moses neuer medled with it any more. Leu 8.90. Exod. 28.1. & 29.44. & 38.44. & 30.7. Leuit. 1.5. & cap. 8. & 9. Num. 16.10. Num. 11.23. So the cause is to clear, y ^t they who were appointed to assist Moses, & not Aaron, w [...] ciuil & ecclesiastical ru­lers. Where it is said, than the 70. Elders prophisied, [Page 8]it can no more proue them to belong to the gouern­ment of the church, then the like gift bestowed vp­pon Saule, 1. Sam. 10.10: can make him a church-officer.

Seeing then M. Bancroft, the platforme of Go­uernment, whereof you speake, was neither appoin­ted at mount Siuai, nor by the counsell of Iethro, nor yet ordained for the regiment of the Church, but for the vse of the ciuill state, and seeing you can father this exposition vpon none of these, whom af­terward you call the cleargie and layitie factions, the consequent is, that your owne ignoraunce in the cause of Christs gouernement which you oppugne, hath coyned vs this most vnlearned and sencelesse exposition: wherein you doe no more I grant, then that which is the common custome of all your fel­lowes: And that is, to imagine that these, who by the goodnes of God are seen in this cause, can bring no better reasons for the defence of the same, then you whose ignoraunce therein is manifest and ridi­culous vnto vnto all men. And indeed for your part M. Bancroft, if you had any modesty in you, & shame of the world, (to omitte the conscience and sound feare of God, which ought to be in a Minister of the Gospell as you would bee accounted) you would giue your selfe little rest, vntill either you had na­med vs some of these very many, who affirme as you haue set downe, or make open confession of your great ignorance in that cause, whereunto you haue beene alwaies so great an enemy. The reader may well know, that you haue set downe these thinges, rather of meere ignorance, then of single malice on­ly, because otherwise, you that are so ready to take a­ny [Page 9]aduantage against your aduersaries, and their ar­guments, would haue bene glad to haue found so many breaches in one poore reason of theirs: And though you would neuer so faine auoid this blot of your insufficiency, yet your owne words following do witnesse, that you haue spoken of the cause, euen according vnto the deep knowledge that you haue thereof, where you say that the Iewes in their parti­cular Sinagogues, did imitate this gouernement or­dained by Moses in mount Sinai at the counsell of Iethro: As though, euery particuler Sinagogue of the Iewes could affoord 70. elders that were know­en to be the gouernors of the people, to attend vp­pon the regiment of the Church? It appeares that you are well seene, either in the ciuill or Ecclesiasti­call politie of the Iewes, which appoint these elders vnto their particuler Sinagogs. You might as well saye, that wee in England in the gouernement of our particuler parishes, by Church-wardens and Side-men, doe resemble the maiestie that is in the assembly of Star chamber or at the Counsel table, as that the Iewes in their particuler Sinagogues, did imitate the gouernement of the 70. Elders: who be­ing ioyned in authoritie with Moses, are manifested to bee the highest ciuill officers, that were in all the congregation of Israel, and both before and after the captiu [...]ty, they are saide by the learned, to haue the highest authority in the Common-wealth of the Iewes, next vnto the supreame Magistrate. If you had bene but meanely seene in Iosephus (to omitte other writers) you could not haue beene ignorant of this point. The name Elder it may be, is that de­ceiues [Page 10]you, thinking belike, that wheresoeuer wee read of any called Elders in the Scriptures, wee presently take the place, as making for the Eldership vnder the Gospell. Wee thinke farre otherwise then so, because wee finde the Gouernours of the Com­mon wealth, Reade Genesis 50.7. Iosua [...] 6.11. as well as the rulers of the Church; to be called Elders by the spirit of God.

Whatsoeuer then you say of false Prophets, (as you speake much of them in your Sermons) the reader seeth, that at your first assault of the cause of Christs Gouernement, you haue manifested your selfe to bee of their number, that speake euill of the thinges they knowe not, which the holy Ghost ma­keth to be a marke of these false teachers, 2. Pet. 2.13. by whom the way of truth in the latter ages, should bee euill spoken of.

But heere you will saye, that wee ground some­thing for the proofe of the Eldershippe vppon the place of Math. 18. Tell the Church, &c. and that wee bring in the Iewishe Sinagogue for some pur­pose in this question. True it is, wee doe so: And because you neither knowe, as it appeareth, what wee inferre, nor weare able to aunswere them, be­ing made knowen vnto you therefore you did wise­lie to set downe in our name, your owne absurdi­ties, which of themselues, with out any confuter, desire for shame to be buried vnder the earth. That which we affirme is this. And we appeale vnto the conscience of the reader, whether wee speake the truth or not. First we prooue that the offices of Pa­stors, Doctors, Elders, &c. are perpetually to conti­nue in the Church, because the Lord hath appointed [Page 11]them to bee members thereof, Romans 12.6.7.8. M. Cart 1. re­ply pag. 140. 141. Counterpoison Answere to Briges slanders. And because Saint Paule writing vnto Timothie, maketh the retaining of them in the Churche of Christ, not arbitrarie matters, left to the discretion of the Church, but a commaundement which is to bee kept inuiolable, vntill the appearing of the Lord Iesus.

Secondly, we affirme that our Sauiour Christ, did establishe (Mathew 18. these wordes, Tell the Church) this Gouernment of his house by the offi­ces of Pastors, Doctors and Elders: In that he com­maundeth vs, when a brother doth not profite by the degrees of priuate admonition which hee there mencioneth, that wee should acquaint the Church with his offende: Tell the Church saith hee. By the Church in this place, wee say, that either the whole multitude must bee ment, or some one man, as the Bishoppe, Chauncellour, &c. or els the Elders ioyned together, with the Pastour and Doctrour if there bee any. Nowe you will not say, that a man should goe and seeke remedie at the whole mul­titude when his brother offendeth him. On the o­ther-side, if you say, y ^t by the Church in this place, is ment some one man in the Church, and so goe tell the Church; should bee, The phrase of speach also that on man should be taken for the Church, is vn­warrantable. goe tell one man in the Church, as the Bishoppe or Chauncellour: The exposition is diuers vvaies prooued to bee false. Because the degrees of proceedings, which our Sauiour. Christ setteth downe, dooth ouer­throw it. For wee are commaunded from a priuate reproofe of our brother between vs and him, to rise vnto an admonition before one or two witnesses, [Page 12]and so from two or three, not to come backe again, to make his fault known before one witnesse, as the Bishop or Chauncelour, but before many, vz. the Church gouernors, as before is set downe. And in this speeche tell the assemblie of Church, wee say that our sauiour Christ, pointing out by the spirit of prophesie, the gouernement of the eldership vnder the gospell, doth allude vnto the forme of the Iews, gouernment in their Sinagogues, vnto whom who­soeuer gaue not eare, was accounted as an heathen or a publicane.

This M. Bancroft, is the sum of that which wee affirme out of Math. 18. when you can bring any thing against this exposition of the place, you shall be answered by the assistance of God: And it shall appeare, whensoeuer you or yours, dare abide the publike triall of your cause, that there are not onely many that affirme this but also many that wil proue this to bee most true. In the meane time, wee refer the matter vnto the conscience of the reader, whe­ther you and your vpholders, in expounding tell the church, to be, complaine to the Bishop or chan­celour, that is, tell one man in the Church, or wee which interprete the same to bee, tell the gouer­nors of the Church: to wit, the Pastor, Doctor, and Elders ioyned together, beeing not one but many, doe peruert the meaning of the scripture: and as his iudgement in these things shall be conuinced, so let him account of you and vs accordingly.

‘ D. BANCROFT page 9. They had say these men in their sinagogues, the [...] priests, we must haue in euery parish our pastors, they their Leuite, we our Doctors, they their rulers of their sinagogues, we our Elders, they their leuittical treasurers, we our Deacons.’
ANSVVERE.

And what can you say against this saying of theirs? if it be false, why doe you not confute it? your abili­tie indeed to disprooue the afternoon you shewe in that you leaue it as you found it. And that the rea­der may perceiue what madnes it were, for you to go about to weaken any part heereof, I will brieflie note out the places, wherein these offices are men­cioned both in the olde and new testament.

First then for the offices of Priestes and Leuites, Numb. 16 9.10, and Deut. 33.9.10. and there you shall see the Priests and Leuites so distinguished, as although they were both of them to teach Iaacob the iudgements, and Israell the lawe, yet was the Prieste alone to put incense before the face of the Lord: Now vnder the new Testament, answerable vnto the Prieste and Leuite: there is the Pastor and the Doctor, Ephe. 4 11.12. and both of them appointed for the ga­thering together of the Saintes, by the worke of the ministerie, yet both of them distinguished in their speciall subiects. The one of them to attend [ Rom. 12.7.8.] vpon the gift of teaching, the other vpon exhortation, the one of thē to be in an especiall fort, [ 1. Cor. 12.8.] indued with the word of knowledge, the other with the word of wisedome. Concerning those, who in the new [ Acts 12.15. &c 18.8.] testament are called the rulers of the Sinagogue, the spirit of God in the old, nameth them [ 2. Chro. 19. [...]] the Princes [Page 14]or the chiefe of the families: who although they were not of the tribe of Leui, yet were they appoin­ted for the cause and iudgements of the Lorde, as well as the Priestes and Leuites themselues. In like manner, 2. Tim. 5.17. Rom. 12.8. Act. 20.28. 1. Cor. 12.28. there are Elders in the newe Testament, bearing a distinct office from the Pastor and the do­ctor, and yet appointed to rule & ouersee the house of God by vertue of their owne proper function. Lastly, as vnder the lawe, wee finde Church trea­sures, vnto whose custody, 1. Chro. 26.20 28 2. Chro. 31.13.15. the dedicate thinges be­longing to the sacrifices, and the maintenaunce of the Leuites were committed: So in the kingdome of Christ vnder the newe couenaunt, are Deacons appointed: Act. 6.2.3. Rom. 12 8.9. 1. Tim. 3.6. whose office is neither to medle with the word and Sacraments, nor yet with the gouern­ment of the house of God, but onely to attend vp­pon the goods of the Church, and the right distri­bution of them to the vse of the poore, &c. I omit heere, that as the Gebonites and the Nethinimes, were imployed about the inferior and baser offices of the temple and tabernacle, so the holy ghost hath appointed Church seruaunts and widowes, to the same purpose vnder the Gospell. Heere by good reades thou seest, that not onely wee, but the holie ghost also saith, those thinges concerning the regi­ment of the Church, hoth vnder the new and olde Testament, which Maister Bancroft is not able to: gaine say with any colour of truth. And yet it were, season that either his answere, or his consent should: be had.

‘ M. BANCROFT. This forme of gouernement, they cal the tabernacle, which God hath appointed, the glory of God, and of his sonne Iesus Christ, the presence of God the place which he hath chosen to put hi [...] name there, the courte of the Lord, and the shining forth of Gods glory.’
ANSVVERE.

Although I deny not, but the true gouernement of the Church by the Eldershippe, might haue the most of these titles truly attributed vnto it, where­with the visible Church vnder the new Testament is adorned: yet the most of those names which you set downe, being something insolent and strange, I make no doubt, but all modest writers would ab­staine from them: Especially, knowing how subiect this cause in our time is, vnto the godlesse cauils of suche, as care not what they write to the disgrace thereof. And because you haue set them down with out any authority: for mine owne part, I can no o­therwise thinke of them, then of the brood of your owne slaunderous spirite, whereunto you can find no couert vnder the wings of your aduersaries, whē you haue produced your witnesses, to prooue them none of yours, I will in this point alter mine opini­on, and it stands you vpon to cleare your selfe. That which followeth in your Sermon, doeth manifest both your ignorance in the cause, and also that you haue so acquainted your tongue and pen with vn­truthes, that you are a stranger vnto the wordes of veritie and vprightnes: your wordes are these.

‘ D. BANCROFT page 6. line 13. VVhere this ecclesiastical Synod is not erected, they say Gods ordi­nance is not performed: the office of Christ as he is a King, is not ackno­ledged: in effect, with out this gouernement, we can neuer attaine to a right and trewe feeling, of christian religion, but are to be reckoned a­mong those, Luke. 19.27. who say of Christ, we wil not haue this man to raigne ouer vs.’
ANSVVERE.

As though we desire ecclesiastical Synods, to be erected in euery congregation, and parish, or that we make no difference, betwene a Synod, which is a meeting of al the ministers, and elders, if occasion should require, (or more properly of some choise ministers and elders) in a whole prouince, or more generall, and the Eldershippe: which containeth the gouernors, to wit the Pastors Doctors and elders of one only congregation. The reader may se what a meet man you are to be an inueigher against the eldership, whereas you knowe not what it meaneth, and whether a Synod and an Eldership be al one or not.

Where this forme of ecclesiastical gouernement is not erected, there indeed we say, that Gods ordi­nance concerning the regiment of his church is not wholy obserued: but that his whole ordinance is wanting, where there is a faythful teacher we neuer as yet affirmed. And therefore if by your generall speach (that wee say Gods ordinance is not perfor­med &c.) you meane that we denye any part there­of, to be where the gouernement by the Eldership is not established, you doe but followe your owne humor, that is beare false witnesse against the truth, and those that professe the same.

The office of Christ as he is a King, is boath to [Page 17]teach and to gouerne his church by his own lawes. Our Bishops doe professe them selues to robbe the church of the scepter of gouernement, which they haue tyranuously wrested to them selues, & there­fore we truly say, that they suffer Christ to haue but halfe a kingdome at the most, vnder their jurisdicti­on, and that we feare ful sore against their wills: we grant indeed, that many congregations in the land, doe enjoy, Christ Iesus raigning among them, by the scepter of his word, and wee doe day and night according vnto our weake measure of faith, heartily thanke our God for this blessing, and beseeche him from the bottome of our hearts, to shew mercy vn­to our soueraigne Queene Elizabeth, vnder whose peaceable gouernment, we are partakers of so ine­stimable a treasure. Yet notwithstanding; it is too well knowen, what a straunger, the sauiour of man­kinde is to the most part within our lande, because the voyce of his gospell is neuer effectually heard among them: and so wee may truly say, that the of­fice of Christ as he is a king, is no wise acknoledged vnder y ^e jurisdiction of our Bishops in many places of our land. Againe, we do so thanke the Lord for the enjoying of his Gospel preached, as we cease not, humbly to intreate his majestie, that leeing hee hath vouchsafed vs the lauour to bee of his house­holde, it would also please him, that wee may bee ruled by the offices and lawes of his owne house. For what hath the Temple of God to doe with the gouernement and statutes of the kingdome of An­tichrist? And we doe protest that wee will giue him no rest, vntill hee hath vouchsaued to heare our sup­plications [Page 18]euen in this point. And yet in the meane time, we doe acknowledge his office as he is a king: and doe professe our selues without this Gouerne­ment which wee labour for; to haue attained vnto some right and true feeling of christian religion; though not to such a measure, as we hope to reach vnto, whensoeuer the Lord shall graunt vnto vs the vse of his holy ordinaunce, which wee so earnestly desire. This may serue M. Bancroft for a sufficient confutation of your loose and vnbridled tongue; which are not ashamed to publish that without this gouernement we holde, that men can neuer attaine vnto a right and true feeling of religion: we haue e­uermore affirmed the contrary, & are able to proue the contrary.

For wee holde that those 3000. soules which in one day were added vnto the Church at Ierusalem, Act. 2.41. before the Eldership was established among the di­sciples, had a true feeling of religion: wee say the same of the Church of Creta, Tit. 1.5. euen before euer Ti­tus ordained elders in euery citie among them. The like iudgement wee haue of the church of England, at this day. But as the spirite of God recordeth, that notwithstanding these Churches of Ierusalem and Creet, had a true feeling of Christ, yet it behooued them to submit themselues, according vnto Gods ordinance, vnto the gouernement of the Eldership, which [ Act. 15.4.6. Titus. 1.5.] they enioyed: So say wee of our selues in Englande, and of all other Churches in our case, that although our knowledge and feeling were ne­uer so great, (as alas it is but too too slender) yet are we to be built further and further, and wrought vp­pon [Page 19]by all the holy ordinances of God, least wee be depriued of that inheritance which is to bee had a­mong them that are sanctified. And indeed we hold, it is to bee feared, of all those who refuse to stoope vnto the Lord in this point of their obedience, that they haue not as yet felt a right, what true religion meaneth. Therefore, we warne them to enter into their own soules, and examine what true sence they haue of the glory of God, and his fauour towardes them. And as for the most of them, that are enemies vnto this gouernment of Christ Iesus, it were to be wished, both in regard of the Church, and common wealth, that their very liues and conuersations, did not shew them, to be either meere Atheistes or car­nall and prophane men, that onely content them­selues to haue godlinesse in their monthes, though their hearts haue denied the power thereof, and are so farre from the true feeling of Christian religion, as D. Bancroft is from true and vpright dealing, who saith, that we account all those, amongst whom this Ecclesiasticall Sinode (as he calleth it) is not e­rected, to say of our sauiour Christ, we wil not haue this man to raigne ouer vs. The which speech, how vntrue it is, may appeare by that which is alreadie spoken. As for the conclusion, which in the latter ende of this page hee alledgeth out of the Demon­stration of Discipline, I wish with all my heart, if it please the Lord, that neither hee nor any other ene­mies of the cause, may feele the waight thereof.

Whereas in this place, page 9. line. 26. you would seeme to make the Demonstration of discipline, to be the fountain whence you haue deriued the most of the thinges [Page 20]hitherto discussed, the reader is to make no other ac­count of that speech of yours, then to marke it vppe, vpon the score of your vntruthes: for you shall find no such matter in that booke.

‘ D. BANCROFT page 10. sect. 2. & 3. There was neuer ancient father (as I thinke) since the Apostles time, that did thus expound the place, Mat. 18. Besides there hath bin a diuers gouernement from this, vsed in the Church euer since the Apostles time, and these men doe confesse, that this gouernment long before the coun­sel of Nice began greatly to decay and that since the sayd counsel, T. C. it was neuer heard of in the world, vntil these their times.’
ANSVVERE.

They must needs be childish, and absurd fathers, that should expounde the place, according vnto your interpretation. The reader hath seene, that you haue alleadged your owne comment and not ours. Neither do we runne vnto fathers when we would try the truth, but vnto the scriptures themselues. And yet wee thankefully acknoweledg the helpes, which their labours haue affoarded vnto vs, but so as wee held it a maine point of popery to holde that a place is not well interpreted, because no such ex­position can be founde in the writings of the anci­ents. Besides, we account your brest for no librarie, wherein al the interpretations of the fathers vppon this place may be sene. Chrisostom (if that were any thinge vnto the truth) doth expound tel the church, to be, Chrisost. vpon Math. tel the gouernors of the Church, which com­prehendeth in a manner al that wee affirme.

We know Di [...]rephes to haue bin in the church, euen in the Apostles times, 3. Iohn. 9. and wee are assured he could neuer be gotten out of it, since the first hower [Page 21]that he set footing therein. And therefore we can­not greatly maruel, though euen in their time, there had bin a diuers gouernment, from this of the lords appointment, which we labour for. For euen in the Apostles time, the mistery of iniquitie beganne to worke. But for al this, 2. Thes. 2.7. wee would haue you prooue your bolde assertion, that euer since the Apostles time, there hath bin a diuers gouernment from this, and when you haue done, you must vnderstande, that the question betweene vs is not so much, de facto, as de jure, not so much whether there was a diuers gouernment &c. as whether that diuers go­uernement was lawfull or not.

We must needs confesse indeed, that not onelie this gouernement of the Church, but also many o­ther points of greatest waight in religion, fell to de­cay long before the counsell of Nice: But that M. Carthwright, or any man els of iudgement hath af­firmed, that this gouernement was neuer heard of, since the sayde counsell, vntill these our times, it is an impudent vntruth. You quote T. C. on the margent, but neither name the page, nor the booke where hee should affirme this which you woulde seeme to publish vnder his name,. The reader is to marke this is an other of shifte, which is so much the more shamles, as you ground your next speech vppon it, as vpon a matter graunted you without a­ny further question.

‘ D. BANCROFT page 10. & 11. A very strange matter if it were true, that Christ should erect a forme of gouernment to continue vntil his comming, and that the same should neuer be once put in practise, for the space of 1500. yeares, or at the least (to take them at their best) that the gouernment & kingdome of Christ should then be ouerthrowne, when the diuinity of his person the honour of his kingly authors, &c. was established at the counsel of Nice.’
ANSVVERE.

Let the reader marke this for another of your shifts.And is it not also a strange case, that you wil erect a building of your owne stuffe, and workmanship, and then cal your auditors, to gaze and wonder at the absurd deformitie of it. Why? there are non but your selfe, and such as you are, that affirme this go­uernement to haue wanted execution, for the space of 1500. yeares. Neither doe we holde or thinke the gouernement and kingdome of Christ, to be ouer­throwne at the time of the counsel of Nice. And you haue in this point, giuen your selfe the shamfull lye, in the 100. page of your Sermon, where you al­leadge that M. Cartwright doth affirme this elder­ship to haue bene most flourishing vnder Constan­tine the Emperour, by whome the Nicene councell was called. I referre the reader vnto the place, and & wish you, though you cannot be gotten to leaue forging of vntruthes against vs, yet for your owne credit sake, not to forget the chiefe ma [...]ime of your profession: which is, that it behooueth a lying tong to be joyned with a good memorie.

We doe not say, that the gouernment and king­dome of Christ is wholly ouerthrowne, where the Eldership is wanting, and therfore, your speech ten­ding that way, doth rather point out the essentiall [Page 23]all qualitie of your nature, then any conclusion of ours.

And admit it were true, that the Eldership lay in the dust, at the time of the Nicen counsel, and was neuer heard of in Christendoome from that hower vntill this latter age. Will you conclude thereof, that therefore it is not nowe to bee receiued? that is Poperie. For the holy men there met togeather, suffered many other substantiall and most necessa­rie points of doctrine to be buried, as they had bene long before their time, and were neuer in a man­ner taken out of the ground vntill this latter age. And all that the fathers decreed at Nice, besides the matter of Arrius, which is but one branch of religi­on farre from a perfect confession of faith, let any man read their Cannons as they are set downe, ei­ther by Ruffinus, Ruffi. lib. 2 cap. 6. or in the first Tome of the coun­cels, and hee shall finde my wordes to bee most true.

The errours concerning free will, and mans abi­litie to fulfill the lawe, deriued from Iustin the mar­tyr, and Irenaeus was at this time in some ripenes, and yet the Nicene Councell tooke no order with these thinges, as it may appeare by their writinges, who liued in the ages following. And though Au­gustine long after, against the pelagians & els where gaue free-wil a deaths wound, yet notwithstanding, wee knowe, that euer since the Apostles time, in a manner it flourished euery where, vntill M. Luther tooke the sword in hand against it. And by Mai­ster Bancrofts reason, the Papistes defending free-will, against Maister Luther, helde the better part. [Page 24]For it may be thought a strange matter in the sight of M. Bancrofts popish eyes, that eyther mans. free will and abilitie to fulfill the law of God, shoulde in our time be thought erroneous, and to annihilate the vertue of Christs kingdome and priesthood, or that the Lord in his word should establish a contra­rie doctrine therunto, for his Church to follow vn­to his comming againe, whereas the same was win­ked at, or buried, when by all mens confession, the diuinitie of our Sauiour Christe, These are M. Bantro. words. the vertue of his priesthood, the power of his office as he is a prophet and the honour of his kingly authority, was so god­ly, so learnedly, and so mightily established against the Arrians in the Councell of Nice, &c.

So that if this argument bee good and forcible a­gainst the Church gouernement, it is also powrfull to ouerthrowe the maine point of our iustification by faith, besides manye other corruptions which were past ouer, yea and established at that councell, which is iustly accounted one of the soundest, that the ancient times can affoord vnto vs. Paphnutius alone, was enforced to stande vp against the whole Sinode in the cause of the marriage of Ministers, which notwithstanding, he (being a man himselfe indued with the gift of continency) so defended, that hee would not haue him that were a Minister being vnmaried, Zoromen lib. 1 cap. 23. euer after to be joyned with a wife. These things, and many such like, together with M. Bancrofts iudgement of vs, pag. 11. and his treatise of the going out of false Prophets, page 11.12. & 13. I overpasse, because I would be briefe.

Concerning the 4. causes yelded by him, why [Page 25]false prophets goe out into the world, we denie not but the contempt of the true gouernours of the Church, ambition, selfe loue, and couetousnes, do cary many away from the sinceritie of the truth: nowe whether these doe beare sway in M. Bancroft and out Bishops, let the worlde indge. The place of Ierom (touched pa. 14.) vnto Euagruis shalbe after­ward spoken off.

‘ D. BANCROFT page 17.18.19. & 20. But the story of Aerius is most pertinent, to shew that ambition dri­ueth men to be false Prophets. Epiphanius doth report it thus in effect. Eustathius and Aerius stroue one against another for a Bishopricke. Lib. 3. Tom. 1. haeres. 75. Eu­stathius obtained it, whereat, Aerius began to repine, and grewe to bee a scismatike, defending that by the word of God, there was no difference betweene a Priest and a Bishop. Hee vsed the same arguments that now are vsed of these that maintaine his opinions. As that the Apostle wri­ting sometimes to priests and deacon, sometimes to Bishops and dea­cons shoulde thereby signifie, that a Bishop and a priest is al one. In con­clusion, Aerius after due tryal, and examination, had by the learned fa­thers, who then liued of his arguments and sleight, was by the generall consent, of the Church overthrowne, and condemned for an heretick. And to this day there was neuer any but heretikes, and such lewde per­sons that condemned the callings of Lord Bishops for Antichristian.’
ANSVVERE.

There is nothing brought in here out of Epipha­nius, but it hath beene answered long since by M. Cartwright, M. Cart. 2. re­ply 1. part. page 68. and shewed to be the reason of Pighius an Archpapist, against M. Wicklieffe and the wal­denses, it besemeth M. Bancroft very wel to borow the weapons of such a champion, to fight against the truth. But first M. Bancroft, I woulde knowe what you can say against the person of Aerius, touching the truth which he defendeth, we wil deale after­ward: you answere that Epiphanis reckoneth him [Page 26]vp amongst hereticks, and so you account of him. Wherevnto I reply, that Ierome dealeth with vigi­lantius after the same measure, because vigilantius held it vnlaweful to pray for the dead, Ierom ad Ripa­rium & contra vigi. antium. to worship the dead bones, and reliques of Saints, and defen­ded marriage, to bee preferred before virginnitie. Wherein Ierome (though otherwise a godly man) doth rather bewray his immodest rashnes, then any wise discredit Vigilantius with those that know the truth. The same is to be sayd of Epiphanius and Ae­rius. And indeede, for any thing that Epiphanius and Pighius hath brought, or you can bring against him, he was an honester man, than either Eustathius his competitor, or Pighius and D. Bancroft his con­futors. Hee is said indeed to be an Arrian, but that could neuer be prooued as yet, and it was rather an action of slander, rather commensed against him by his proud enemies the Bishops, then any true accu­sation, whereof he can be prooued gilty. You can­not finde, Looke Danaeus in August. de haeres. cap. 53. in the whole Ecclesiasticall story, written by these that liued after him, that euer there was any crime of heresie layde to his charge, whereas Eusta­thius his schoolefellowe and aduersary, is recorded by them, as also by Epiphanius, for a knowen and famous hereticke.

Touching Epiphanius, though I will not call his name in question, yet thus much I may truly speake of him, that he was (as the lerned know wel enogh) so besotted with the corruptions of the times wher­in he liued, that his credite alone, is not of sufficient authority to passe sentence against Aerius. For the proofe hereof, the reader is to vnderstand, that hee [Page 27]condemneth Aerius for a black heretike, as well be­cause hee helde it vnlawfull to pray or to offer anie thing for the dead, as in that hee defended a Bishop and a Priest as M. Bancroft speaketh, to be of equall authoritie. As for Augustine, whom you bring with Epiphanius against this poore heretike, hee rather followeth the receiued opinion, thē his own iudge­ment of him, according vnto truth.

This much touching the person of the man, as for his heresie, if he had noe other then those which Epiphanius layeth to his charge, and especially this of the aequallitie betweene a minister and a Bishop, the spirit of god giueth him a plaine discharge from all suspicion, either of heresie or yet of error. For the word of God teacheth vs, that to bee a teaching El­der (which you retaining your popish custome, call a Priest) is nothing els, but Episcopein, 1. Pet 5.1.3. that is to be a Bishoppe or an ouerseer. And Christ Iesus forbid­deth his Ministers to haue any superiority one ouer another. Now, when Pighius, D. Bancroft, Luk. 22.25. or any other Romane Papist or Protestant, shall be able to aunswere these and the like reasons, they may then haue good leaue with open mouth, to cry out vpon Aerius for his heresie. Otherwise, in condemning that sentence, whose premises they are not able to infringe, they doe nothing els but deny the conclu­sion, which in this, and many other pointes, is Ma­ster Bancrofts fashion of dispute. For what els doth he in alleadging, that men haue condemned Aerius for an heretike, whereas neither he nor they, can an­swer the reasons whereupon Aerius his conclusion is grounded. And if Aerius his opinion, was no o­ther [Page 28]then that the worde of god made no difference betweene a Bishop and a minister; as master Doctor here setteth downe, I cannot thinke but vppon bet­ter aduisement, he wilbe concent to reuoke the rash sentence, which he hath pronounced against him, lest thereby he doe not only strike at Ierome; but e­uen at the Archbishop, M. Bancroft is so hasty to wound his ad­uersaries, as he also striketh himselfe and his friends. and al others, that are of his side in England at this day. For Master Bancroft I thinke wil not say, that a Bishop is superiour vnto a­minister by the worde of god, then howe wil he an­swere Ierome in the places quoted by him selfe page the 14. who sayth that in the Apostles time, Ierom. ad Eua­gri. there was noe such difference betweene them, and that this prerogatiue that one minister should be aboue a nother, is grounded vpon humane custome, & not vppon the ordinance of God. And after this sorte doe our Bishops account of the present Church go­uernement, which they holde vnchangeable, onely as long as it shall please her maiestie and the state. If M. Bancroft be of an other judgement, we say that he condemneth not Aerius aloane, but euen Ierome and our Bishops for obstinate hereticks, & we craue his answere vnto the place of Ierome. Nowe if hee be of Ieromes minde, I would gladly learne of him and Epiphanius, where they learned to condemne men of heresie, for gainsaying such things in religi­on, as haue no other original and ground then the constitutions of men. For if it was not an heresie in the Apostles time (as Ierome telleth vs it was none) to holde a minister and a Bishop to be of aequal au­thority, it can be non at this hower, neither coulde it beat any time since the age, wherein they liued. [Page 29]For noe man can be nowe accounted an hereticke, for defending that which had been sound, and Ca­tholique doctrine in the Apostles time.

Now that either we or Aerius should conclude, the aequallitie of ministers because the Apostle wri­teth sometimes vnto Priests and Deacons, & some­times vnto Bishops and Deacons, For mine owne part, I neuer heard of the reason before. The reader is to make no other account of it, but as a testimony of Maister Chaplaines acquaintaunce with our ar­guments. And I beleeue it I should aske either him or Aerius, where they finde that the Apostle hath written vnto Priestes any otherwise, then they are contained vnder the name Bishops) and Dea­cons, I should put them both to their shifts.

Where he saith, that Aerius was condemned for an heretike, by the consent of the whole Church, after due triall and examination of his arguments, by the learned fathers then liuing, it is as impudent an assertion, as euer he vttered. And I maruell, that hee blusheth not to publish such windy stuffe vnto the view of the world in this learned age. Indeede, if Aerius had no other reasons, then that which wee haue already heard, the learned fathers of his time were verie simple, that would stand in the triall and examination of so groundlesse a supposition. I am sorie to heare you so farre gone in the heat of your impatiency, as you should denie the superioritie of Ministers to haue beene againe-sayde, and their Gouernement accounted Antichristian, by anye since the time of Aerius, saue onely by heretikes and such lend persons.

[Page 30]Do you account the Waldenses to be heretikes▪ Do you account M. Wickliffe, And I pray you what account you of the reformed churches. M. Iohn Husse, and M. Tindale to be heretikes or lend persons? The godly haue them in other maner of estimation. And yet M. Carthwright and others haue long since pro­ued these men to be vnreconcilable aduersaries vn­to the hierarchie, and shewed that they beganne no sooner to stand against the Pope, but they also en­countred with the Bishops, whose callings, that they doe belong vnto the Antichristian kingdome, is ma­nifested by this reason: whereunto if you will main­taine the credit of your masters, I would wish you to answere.

Those offices and callings are Antichristian, with out which, all forme of Gouernements are perfect, saue onely the gouernment of the kingdome of An­tichrist which in no wise can want them.

But such are the callings of Lord Archb. and Bb. as all forme of gouernements may be perfect with­out them, saue onely the Antichristian kingdome, where in no case they can bee missed. For the Go­uernment both of the Church and common welth, can well spare them, and bee neuer a whit the more vnperfect. Therefore, the callinges of Archb. and Bishops, do only belong vnto the kingdom of An­tichrist. If you do reply M. Bancroft, that the most learned; and the most zealous of the fathers, especi­ally in these latter times, haue taken vpon them the callings of Bishops and Archbishops, you do therby nothing els, but offer to produce your witnesses to sweare that the conclusion is not true: And therfore as I haue said, so I admonish you again, not to trou­ble [Page 31]yourselfe in so gainelesse a labour. But if you will stand our Bishops in any stead, deale against ei­ther the proposition or assumption, otherwise the burthen of the conclusion will lie vpon them, whe­ther they will or no.

Your distinction of the cleargy and layity facti­ons, To the 24.25.26.27. pages. we acknowledge not: For wee maintaine ney­ther factions nor scismes. If there bee any Courti­ers or great men, that desire to be inriched with the patrimonie of the Church, wee wishe them better mindes, and pray that they may bee disapointed of their expectation. Yet we see no more reason, why our Bishops and Chaplaines should liue vpon the spoile and robbery of soules, then Noble men and Gentlemen should bee maintained by sacriledge. For we holde, that both sorts, in so doing, do bring the price of bloud into their houses. But it is most intollerable, that they who would bee taken for Le­uites and gouernours of the holy Temple, should haue a hād in this trespasse. You haue streined your conscience to far I feare me, in going about to make vp the credite of Bishop Coopers admonition to the people of England. Page 24. A large conscience I per­ceiue hath along hand, to reach a distinctiō a far of. Let the reader consider the place.

If you set downe any thing that is Annabaptisti­call or Popish, it were meete you should confute it, Page. 25. least the simple auditors should take it for your own doctrine, rather then other mens errours. Nowe I come to that part of your Sermon, where you deale concerning the triall of spirits.

‘ D: BANCROFT page 33. lin. 26. & pag. 34. lin. 19. & 41. lin. 17. The popish false Prophets wil suffer the people to try nothing, but teach them wholly to depend vppon them. The giddy spirits woulde haue men to be everseeking and searching. The meane therefore be­twixt both these extremities I holde to be best. And this it is, that when you haue attained the true grounds of Christian Religion, and are con­stantly built by a liuely faith vpon Iesus Christ, 1. Cor. 3. being incorporated into his mis [...]eal body, by your baptisme, and afterwards nourished with the Lords Supper: you then content your selfe and seeke no farther, &c.’
ANSVVERE.

It is well known, that wee allow neither popish, norgiddy spirites, no nor yet slaunderous and lying spirites. As for the rule of the popishe false Pro­phets, you haue squared your doctrine page 43. just according vnto the same, as the reader shal perceiue in the proper place.

You haue plotted vs out heere such a meane, be­tweene two extreamities, as they must needes bee meane Christians, that will go no further, then the resting place which you haue set downe for them. I will not say heere that the Papistes will graunt the miserable people vnder them, leaue to goe thus far, which is true: but this I will say, that this doctrine of yours, tendeth wholly to remooue an able Mini­sterie out of the Church, and so consequently, to robbe the people both of the scepter of Christs go­uernement, and also of his word. For if the people neede no more, (nay, if it bee vnlawfull for them to go any further) then to bee baptised, and after they haue attained vnto the true groundes of Christian religion, & are engraffed into Christ, to receiue the Lordes supper; to what vse serueth the preaching of the word? And to what end should the Apostle re­quire, Phil. 1.9.10. that the word of God, should dwell plentiful­lie. [Page 33]among Christians, and pray that our loue maye abound more and more in knowledge, Phil. 1.6. and in al fee­ling, that we may discerne things that differ, that we may bee pure, and without offence vntill the day of Christ, filled with the fruits of righteousnes, &c. If you could once M. Bancroft, bring this meane of yours to take place: then indeede might you place readers insteed of Preachers, ouer the people with­out controllement, and say that they need no other teaching, because they are baptised, engraffed into Christ, and fed with the heauenly foode exhibited vnto them in the Lords Supper: and what need they more? For Tertullian saith, Page. 42. that we need not be cu­rious, after we haue apprehended Christ, nor in qui­sitiue, after we haue receiued the gospell. But a mi­serable teacher are you, that in such sort doe open a windowe vnto the deuill and mans corruption, to breake faith into all impietie and wickednesse. For how shall either the rage of sathan against vs, or the rebellion of our owne corruptions within vs, be re­strained, but by that mighty scepter of Christs word preached, euen vnto vs that haue receiued the first fruits of the spirit. If you had euer knowne what it had bene, to receiue Christ truly, and to retain him being receiued, you would neuer haue endeuoured to seduce your auditors, in this monstrous & popish sort. But because the light of your owne conscience doth tell you, that christians cannot containe them­selues within this prison, wherein you haue shutte them: You set downe a good supply of the want of teaching, if men would desire to be resolued in anye matter of doubt: your owne wordes, or rather your [Page 34]popery I will set downe.

‘ D. BANCROFT page 42. & 43 line 24. God hath bound himselfe vnto his church of purpose, that men by hir good direction, Councels. might in this point (that is in maters of dout) be relieued: to whose godly determinatiō, in maters of question, her dutiful children, ought to submit themselues without any curious or wilfull contradicti­on. Neither can I see, nowe that popery is bannished, and the trueth of christian religiō is godly planted amongst vs, why in these dais, we shuld not attribute as much to the decrees of our learned fathers in their law­full assemblies, as other men in times past, of as great iudgement as wee are, haue done.’
ANSVVERE.

You account the Papists to be false Prophets, be­cause they will suffer the people to trie nothing, Page 33. but teach them wholly to depend vppon them: you do wel in it. But if this touching coūcels, be not to ioin hand with them, in the point wherin you pretend to bee their aduersary, & if this be not to teach men to beleeue, as their mother the church doth let the rea­der iudge. The Bishop of Rome, desireth no more to bee graunted vnto him, for the authoritie of his councels, thē you haue set down in expresse terms. And if the Lorde hath bound himselfe by his pro­mise vnto his Church of purpose, that men should be directed therby: I would demaund of you, whe­ther this promise was, that the Church should di­rect them vnto truth, or vnto errour. If you say vnto truth, otherwise it were no promise, I demand then how the Church can erre? For either the Lord must breake his promise, if hee hath made any, or els the Church cannot erre in the direction of her dutifull children. Now if you say, that the Church cannot erre, the reader knoweth what account to make of [Page 35]you, if she be subiect vnto errors, to what end should we stand to her determination in matters of questi­on, any further then we are assured, that her decrees are according vnto the word. Now, if it be lawfull for vs (otherwise our bondage should bee intollera­ble) to trie whether her determinations bee accor­ding vnto the word, and to reiect them, if they bee otherwise, to what ende doe you carry vs from the sure foundacion of the worde, vnto the vncertaine and vnconstant voice of the Church? surely, if you would know what I conceiue of you, for this, & the like points of doctrine in your Sermon, my opinion is, that you are not far from a close papist, how vehe­ment so euer you speake against thē: and whosoeuer they were, y ^t allowed your Sermon to be published, they may iustly feare, least the Papists doe ere it be long, make too great aduantage that you haue bene suffered to preach and to publish many grounds of popery vnreprooued, vnder the profession of the gospell. The Church of God we reuerence, to bee wilfull in standing against her, or any member ther­of we holde it vnlawfull, but that men should stand in matters of question vnto her determination, as vnto the vndoubted voyce of God, she hath no au­thority to require any such obedience at our hands.

I dare say for you, that you are vexed at the verie heart, that any thing established in the Conuocati­on house should bee called in question, when you prooue that assembly to be lawfull, and the learned fathers (as you call them) there met, to bee true Pa­stors, and not rauening wolues, wee will promise to giue greater reuerence vnto their degrees. Poperie [Page 36]is so bannished from amonge vs, that by the au­thority of those learned fathers, you dare in open Pulpit, and publike writinges, iustifie many points thereof. Answere to the 46.47.48.49. pages. It is not onely lawfull but necessary, that all men, of what state soeuer they bee, should be re­quired, yea, & compelled by the Magistrate, to sub­scribe vnto true religion. 2. Chron. 14.12, & cap. 34 31.32. 2. Kings 11.17. Nehem. 9.38. & 10.29. This we doe willingly confesse: Howbeit, we hold it vn­lawfull to subscribe in that forme that our Bishops do exact at our hands. Your reason that subscription is lawfull, therefore the English, or the Augustane subscription is lawfull, is no other then if I should say, that religion is good, therefore the popishe reli­gion is good. But of all other points in your booke, I cannot but greatly wonder, that you seeme to iu­stifie the subscription vnto the Augustine confessi­on, and the silenceing of those that would not sub­scribe vnto it. Page 47. lin. 24 You are not ignoraunt I thinke, that the saide confession is vnsound, in the point of the Lords supper, which hath set Germany on fire these many yeares. As for the subscription which in Eng­land is required by statute, our men haue beene al­waies ready to yeelde vnto it. But the learned fa­thers whereof you speake, seeing that by the same subscription, they could haue no aduantage against the truth, haue coyned a new one of their own, which we hold vtterly vnlawfull, because it requireth our consent vnto the popish hierarchie, vnto the Apo­cripha, and many other corruptions. The which course of theirs, because they are not able to iustifie, therefore haue you done well, to finde out a waye, [Page 37]whereby they may easilie determine of any questi­on or difficultie mooued vnto them. So that now, if we deny to subscribe vnto that, which against law they require of vs, vntill we be satisfied in the douts wee make, whether it may be lawfull for vs to main­taine the proud and ambitious superioritie of one minister aboue another, the appointing of ignorant and godlesse men vnto the Ministerie, the crosse in Baptisme, the prophanation of that Sacrament by women, with other manifolde abuses, which we are vrged to approoue, their answere may be according vnto your rule, that they beeing the learned fathers of our Church, haue in their lawfull assemblies, de­creed that this subscription should bee called for, and they see no reason, why popery being now ban­nished, &c. wee should not attribute as much vnto their decrees, as other men in times past haue done. Looke M. Ban­croft in the place set downe before. And so if we were dutifull children, we would sub­mit our selues without any wilful contradiction vn­to their godlie determination: seeing the Lord hath by his promise, tied himselfe vnto them, being his Church for this purpose. Now, if we shall reply any thing againe, as being vnsatisfied by this resolution, wee are presently cried out vppon, as being giddie Spirites, and men that cannot bee content with any good order established by lawe, and approoued by our betters, euen such as gaue their bloud for the te­stimony of the truth. And thus in stead of answe­ring our reasons, they inuent slanders against vs, and fall out with our conclusion, according vnto Master Bancrofts manner of dealing.

Whereof as I haue often before admonished the [Page 38]reader, so nowe I haue special occasion to put him in minde of the same concerning his dealing with vs touching the booke of common prayer, and the point of her maiesties supremacy. Wherein he spen­deth 20. pages for the most part, From the 50. to the 72. pages. wee shewe diuers corruptions to be in that booke, wee set downe the particulars, as baptim by weomen, crosse in baptime ring in matriage, appropriating of garmentes to the vse of religion, and grosser coruptions, as Ari­anisme, where the booke maketh Michael to bee a creature, The Collect on Michaels day. and addeth vnto the word, as psalme 14. in which place, 3. verses, that is the 5.6.7. are added vn­to the text, more then euer the holy Ghost penned in that psalme, with other grieuous corruptions, which I passe ouer. Nowe howe doth M. Bancroft thinke you deale for the credit of the booke, in an­swering these particulars? hee toucheth not one of them, but first of all hee telleth his auditors, howe glad al the churches in Europ were at the establish­ing of religion, Page. 15. in the beginning of her Maiesties raigne, And for our partes wee wish them confusion that doe not reioice at it. Page 53. From 54.58. Secondly hauing set down what paines was taken in reforming the booke hee bringeth in diuers testimonies of godlye learned men, to prooue that the booke is in a manner with­out spotte, or wemme, whereby what doth hee els but fall out with our conclusion. Wee charge the booke with diuers particular corruptions, we bring our proofes, Page 61. he is not able to answere them. There­fore our conclusion wil stand firme, that the booke is corrupt. The general commendations of all the men in the world is not able to cleare it, when it is [Page 39]not denied to containe many grosse particular falts. Thirdely he falleth a quarreling with a newe com­munion booke, preferred in parliament, Page 62.63. the yeare 86. and caueleth diuers waies against the same. As y ^t it had bin diuers times altered, that it mencioned not the ciuil magistrate in the first edition, and that it doth not tye the minister to any set forme of pray­er &c. Al which points, I omit as friuolous, and vn­godly cauils not to be stood vpon.

Lastly he falleth to his olde bias, that is to plaine slaundering, Page 67. and affirmeth that one of our reasons whie wee holde the established gouernment of the church of England to be Antichristian, is because the ciuil Magistrate is made a Pope amongst vs, and that we cal her maiesties supremacie vnto question. wherevnto wee answere no otherwise, then Nehe­miah did Sanballat. Nehem. 6.8. It is not done according vnto these wordes that thou sayest, but thou fainest them of thine own hart. Looke whatsoeuer prerogatiue in ecclesiastical or ciuil causes hee or any man liuinge can truly attribute vnto the ciuil magistrate, wee do the same. Concerning the preheminence in ciuill causes there is no great question he wil say between vs, Page. 71. only in ecclesiastical matters we assume vnto our selues saith he, that authoritie which by right is the magistrats. This slander is general, we desire the par­ticular proofe of it wee cannot answere generalles, hee repheth that the magistrate by lawe is to haue whatsoeuer priuiledg the pope at any time had with in this land by vsurpation, Page. 70. lin. 3. what will hee conclude hereof? Not I hope that the magistrate is to haue the power of remitting sinnes, and dispensing with [Page 40]the law of God, which the Pope by vsurpation had in times past within this kingdome? Her Maiestie wee know, detesteth al such prerogatiues from her hart. But what is it that he requireth to be graunted vnto the ciuil authoritie, which wee yelde not most willingly? The power to establish godly ecclesiasti­cal lawes, and constitutions amongest the subiects? wee are so far from denying this, that wee holde it intollerable that our Bishops, and the conuocation house, should intrude their subscriptions, aduertise­ments, and cannons vpon the subjectes, whereas no such things can be warrāted by statute. And where­as hee sayth, that wee claime vnto our Presbiteries the ordinary authoritie to make al lawes, constituti­ons and ceremonies of the Church, it is most false. Al that wee affirme in this point, is noe more then her majestie voluntarily yealdeth in all such cases. when the question is whether such or such a case be statute law or not? whether doth M. Bancroft think her majestie or her learned councel in the lawe, as her judges, Solliciters, Atturneis, &c. to haue grea­test skill in the deciding of this matter? he knowe­eth well enough, that her Majesty in all such points, will be directed by that which her aforesaid lawiers do prooue to be law and equitie, and yet thinketh her royall prorogatiue no whit diminshed thereby. In the like case then, we say that the true gouernors of the church are meetest to direct her majesty what lawes and ceremonies are most lawfull, expedient, & necessary, for the right gouernment of the church And we say, that as her majestie in worldly matters, is to giue eare vnto the Lawiers which haue skill in [Page 41]that facultie: so, in the matters of God is she to esta­blish nothing in the church, but that which the true ministers and true gouernors (if they may bee had) shall shew vnto her to be according vnto the worde of GOD. And yet all this while wee make not the gouernours of the Church to haue power to enact laws, we leaue that authoritie vnto her Maje­sty and the Parliament, vnto whose hands the Lord hath committed it. This indeed we affirme. More­ouer, that her majesty and the Parliament are bound to establish and erect amongst their subiects, al such lawes and ceremonies, as the true Ministers of the word, shall prooue by the Scriptures of God, to bee meet and necessary for the gouernment of the tem­ple, and house of the Lord, within this kingdome: And that they are bound to see, that no forme of re­ligion or Church-gouernment be in force amongst the subjectes, but that alone which by the word of God may bee prooued lawfull, and so that they are bound to see, that the Church of God bee clensed and purified of all Idolatrous, popish, superstious, and superfluous gouernment and ceremonies. And furthermore we say, that they are to prouide by law that all persons, both Ministers and others, doe sub­mit themselues without contradiction, vnto all such things as shall bee godly established in the Church. Whether this bee M. Bancroft to weaken or call into question her Maiesties prerogatiue in Ecclesia­stical causes, let the reader determin. We would al­so desire him to iudge, whether her Majestie be well vsed at your hands, which call her a petty Pope, and say that shee vsurpeth the same authority in causes, page. 68. lin. 2 [...] [Page 42]Ecclesiasticall with in her dominions, which the pope did in times past. Had we cōceiued, much lesse published any such things, wee had worthily smar­ted for it. Your answere heere will be, that you did bring in this reason, to shew the weakenes of Mar­tins arguments against the Bishops. Let Martin in other points answere for himselfe. The case of her Majestie and our Bishops are not alike: He prooueth our Bishops to be petty Popes and vsurpers, you de­nie it not. And therefore you onely addresse your selfe to shew what a rebellious and absurd conclusi­on hee hath made by the like kinde of reasoning as you suppose. And where his minor truly assumeth our bishoppes to be vsurpers and petty Popes, you falsely and standerously charge her Maiestie to bee an vsurper and a petty Pope. Wee are not so hastie to shead bloud as you are, otherwise, this your vn­dutifulnes is so heinous, that I could easily shewe that there were no other waye of desence for you; but in the acknowledgement of your rash boldnes, (to giue your doings no worse tearmes) to flie vnto her Maiesties clemency.

TOVCHING SCOTLAND.

VVE answere, that we desire not the Eldershipp to be planted in the Church of England, From the. 72. to the 78. page because Scotland or Geneua enjoyeth the same, but in as­much as Christ Iesus the head & king of his church hath commaunded it to bee therein. And therefore we admit the gouernment of no church vnder hea­uen to be the p [...]e of that which we desire, but [Page 43]only that regiment which is set downe in the word of God, the perfection whereof if any Church hath attained vnto, wee rejoice with them, and desire to be pertakers of so great a blessing, in the Lods good time. But as for any thing that is amisse (if there be ought) either in Geneua or Scotlande, wee labour no more to haue that established in England, then we doe to haue the great abuses that raigned in the Church of Corinth, or Galatia to be imitated. The slaunder which you haue raised, Page 75. both against the Kings Maiesty there, in giuing out, that he is a dead­ly enemy vnto the present gouernement established in his kingdome, and watcheth but his time to ouer throw it, and also against the godly ministers of that realm, in making them traitors vnto their soueraign, Heaue to be answered by thēselues: and I dout not, but you wil in time be forced to answere the iniury, that you haue offered vnto that godly and noble King o [...] and also vnto the whole Church, with in his dominion.

But let it bee graunted, that the true Church go­uernours in Scotland, behaued themselues rebelli­ously towards then Prince, which yet is most false, what is that to the Church gouernment which they enioly? Doe you thinke it a good season to say, that the Archbishop is a Traitour, therefore the Archbi­shopricke is gilty of Treason: You can not deny, but Thomas Becke [...] was a traitor, so were diuers others that haue beene Archbishops of Canterbury, but I trust you will not therefore attaint the Archbisho­pricke of treason.

Browne a knowne Scismatike is a man very fit to [Page 44]be one of your witnesses against the Eldership. Page 75. lin. 29 His entertainment in Scotland was such, as a proud vn­godly man deserued to haue. God giue him and you repentance, if it be his will, otherwise, you shall make and hard reckoning both of you, before the iudgement feate of Iesus Christ, for the slaunders which you haue raised vp against the gouernement of his kingdome heere vpon earth. Your calender deceiued you for it was not the Parliament of the yeare 88. where of hee wrote, Page 76. lin. 4. but of another held Anno 86. or before.

If any thing be written amisse in any of the books that you mencion, Page 78. wee haue nothing to doe therewith. Bring our owne assentions, and you shal be answered. We holde it altogether vnlawfull for Ministers and Church officers to deale in any ciuil cause, much more, to depose Princes, and therfore our attempts that way are not to be feared. Looke you, Page 79. & your masters vnto those thinges, who arro­gat vnto your selues, that preheminence, which is in deede dangerous vnto the throne of the magistrate and thinke Parliaments and lawes cannot bee halfe orderly kept and enacted, without Lords spirituall.

Your feare, Page 80. lect. 3 that whatsoeuer hath bene done or written in forraine Countries, is laboured to haue execution with vs at home, is but the ouerflowing of your gall. The disease is daungerous, and you may one day aunswere for your distemp [...]rature in his presence, before whome the imaginers of euill against their brethren, shall haue their reward.

We holde indeede, Rom. 13.2. that the Magistracie is gods ordinance bee he a good or a bad, Page 81. an heathen, or a [Page 45]Christian, that is called thereunto: so that the right of a Christian and an heathen Magistrate, within his dominions is the same. You that hold the con­trary, professe your selfe not to bee a subiect for con­science sake, as the Apostle commaundeth, but for some other respect. So you would bee very duti­full belike, if you were vnder an heathen Prince.

Ministers wee say, are not to deale in ciuill cau­ses, Page 82. lin. 27 and therefore in that point wee ascribe vnto the Magistrate, both Potestatē juris & facti: that is, pow­er to make lawes, & to execute them. If there arise a­nie difficultie (as often as it commeth to passe) of that which is agreable vnto the law of God, in mat­ters that are controverted, then indeed it is the Mi­nisters dutie to enforme the Magistrate of the mind of the Lord: wherein hee doth nothing els, but (re­spondere de jure) shewe what the will of God is, that the magistrat may (statuere de facto) pronounce sentence accordingly.

For Ecclesiasticall matters, it is the word of God onely, that therein hath (potestatē juris) the power to determin, what is acceptable in the sight of God, & the Minister ought to haue the knowledge there­of, that he may declare the same, both vnto Magi­strate and people. The Church officers also are ap­pointed of God, to execute all ecclesiastical maters. And if you should attribute this power vnto the magistrate, the imagistrate might iustly account of you as you are. For will you haue the Magistrate to preach the word, administer the Sacramentes, take the charge of watching ouer the maners of the peo­ple, and distributing to the pore within his parish? or [Page 46]will you haue him to visite the sicke, comfort the weake, ordaine ministers, discusse controuersies in religion, & exercise the church censures, by excom­munications, &c. And yet these are the only maters which wee account ecclesiasticall, & wherein alone we hold it lawfull for church officers to deale, other punishments of malefactors as imprisoning, fining, or any mulct y ^t toucheth the life, body or goodes of men, are only to be reterced to the Magistrates, who beare the sword for that purpose. Our Bishops v­surping this sword, doe shewe that they and their fa­thers house, and not wee doe labour to bring and maintaine confusion in church & common wealth.

You exhortation both vnto people and magi­strates, Page. 85. that the one shoulde avoide, and the other punish heretical spirits, we imbrace withal our harts. Being ready to shewe, as our writings haue done at large, that your errors, corruptions, idlenes pride, ambition, slaunders, and vntruthes, vttered against the truth, hath not only (as dayly experience teach­eth vs) begotten and nourished the lamentable ig­norance, which euery where raigneth in this land, but alsoe called for the wrath of God to fal vppon vs, because such vnruly and wicked spirits as you, are tollerated in the holy ministerye amongest vs. Page [...]6. You are now come to the gathering vppe of your standers and vntruche, into an heape in the conclu­sion of your sermon, lest the readers and auditors shoulde forget, that you are an impudent slaunde­rer. And therefore that you may incense the magi­strates against vs in one place, especially you rake thē vp after this manner.

[Page 47]Hir Majestie is depraued, hir authority is impug­ned, and greate dangers are threatned. Page 57 to 19 [...] M Doct. think [...] belike that wee are maintainers of the hierarchy Ciuil gouer­ment is called into question: princes pretogatiues are curiously scanned; the interest of the people in kingdomes is greatly aduaunced, & al gouernment generally is pinched at & comemened: The Church is condemned, the auncient fathers are despised, your preachers are defaced, and yet these men are tollerated.

Whereunto I answere with the wise man, that the lying tonge slayeth the soule, Pron. 12.6. and that the very wordes of the wicked lye in wayte for blood, but the mouth of the righteous wil deliuer them. And so wee doubt not, whensoeuer wee are araigned for a­ny of these heauy accusations, but that wee shalbee deliuered from this bloody tonge. The reader kno­eth that (as a noble Emperour spake in the like case) if it be sufficient to accuse, no man can be innocent. Nowe if he hath these aduantages against any of vs, let him set down his particulars, and name the man, or his writings, and he shalbe answered. Otherwise we make no other account of such Epistrophaes & homoioteleutaes, page 88. line 4. then of the barking and dogge Rethorick, of some profane Lucian or god lesse Por­phirie. It is no news for vs to haue our legs & thighs desired to be broken. Ioke. 19.30. The reader is to remember, that this was the Iewes requests vnto Pilate concer­ning our Sauiour Christ▪ and therefore wee are not to thinke it strange, that M. Bancroft is guided by their spirit whose place he supplieth. But this wee are to knowe, that neither he not his masters shal do any thing against vs, but that which the Lord our [Page 46] [...] [Page 47] [...] [Page 48]God hath long since determined, and therewith by his grace, Act. 4.1 [...]. wee hope to be right wel contented.

In stead of arming his hearers with reasons out of the word against vs, whome he accounteth sect. masters and false Prophets, hee commeth off, after his wonted manner, with idem peridem, leauing his auditors in as great doubt as they were before: And saith, that the doctrine of the Church of Eng­land is pure and holy: Page 89. lin. 27 the gouernement thereof, both in respect of her Maiestie, and of our Bishops is lawfull and godly: the booke of Common praier, containeth nothing in it contrary to the word.

Her Majesties gouernement, he knoweth well e­nough we call not in question. He and his patrons, haue corrupted the doctrine of our church, & as for the hierarchy & cōmon booke, when he hath made vp y ^t holes which I haue alredy shewed to be in both (besides the vncureable woundes y ^t other men haue discouered) he may build somthing vpon his con­clusion, which if he doe not, his maner of disputati­on, in crauing and begging the matter in cōtrouersie will in a while growe to bee a common prouerbe. If we were such vnreasonable men, as we would find salt with matters that are blamelesse: his exhortati­on, that priuate men would take heede, page 8 [...]. 89. and the Ma­gistrate take punishment of vs, would carry vvith it some vvaight. But in asmuch as both the Magistrate and people see, that vvee haue cause to speake, and perceiue that out aduersaries can doe litle, if they cannot set a faire face vpon a crackt cause, wee feare not any great hurt, that his tongue can worke vnto vs.

[Page]And the very same account doe we make of his speach, where hee saith, Page 94. that wee vse the same argu­mentes for the soueraigntie, of our Presbiteries a­gainst the Prince, in causes Ecclesiasticall, that the Pope doth for his principallitie in the same, and we answere as the Papists do him. This is VVhit­gifts quarel, and answered long since. But these thinges (as hee saith) hee cannot stand to prooue at this time, onely hee thought it necessary to aduertise his hea­rers of it, that they might the better beware of such kind of spirits. Take his aduantage who list.

We care not how little a doo we haue at the Ar­ches, Answere. and therefore we meane not to take any great aduauntage against your tongue, any further then your blushing may be for the clearing of the truth. The reader will thinke you worthy to be marked in the forhead, according vnto the Romaine lawe, ex­cept you prooue this which you haue so confident­ly set downe. Though, as it should seeme, you haue a commission, to vse your tongue and pen at your pleasure, yet you cannot blot out the light of mens reading & knowledge. We are known to be so out of amitie (in this case especially) with all Romanists, and you truly accounted to be so neerly allied vnto them, that wee desire no other weapons to strike downe the hierachie, then M. Luther, and M. Cal­uine haue vse to ouerthrowe the Romaine chaire and her ministers.

How often shall it be tould you, Page 95. that we would haue no ciuill matters handled in any ecclesiasticall meeting? and therfore, that we admit not anything in our assemblies, to be decreed against the constitu­tions of Princes, any further then Princes may ac­count [Page]the truth of the word to bee against their sta­tutes. We are as far from making our owne wils, Page. 96. 97. to be the rules of other mens liues, or from affirming that what wee speake is the very word of God, as you are from being ashamed to lie in the face of the sunne: you haue taken great paines in sowing the seed of most grosse vntruthes: repent betimes, least in the Lords iust iudgement, you reape the fruits of your lying tongue.

Concerning M. Cartwright. Page 97. 9S. 100.

VVE depend not vppon men, Christ Iesus is our onely guide. As concerning M. Cartwright, whome you (to keepe your tongue in vre with your naturall vaine) call our ring leader, wee blesse God, that euer he hath vouchsafed vs such an instrument to stand in the defence of his holy gouernment, and to giue your hierarchie, and your high Prieste the shamefull foile. But we follow him no further, then he attendeth vpon the truth of his God. And in that worke we are not ashamed to glaine after so worthy a man. But what can you lay to his charge? you say that hee alleadgeth Cyprian, Ierom, &c. to prooue the equality that ought to be in the ministers of the word and Sacraments, and that in the ancient times there was no difference betwixt a Bishop & a Priest, but that whosoeuer was a Bishop, was a Priest also: and that they had all equall authority within their own parishes, whereas the cleane contrary say you, is to be seene in their writings.

Then heauen and earth, bee you iudges in this caus [...], that the mouth of this slanderer may be stop­ped. [Page 51]First, the place of Cyprian lib. 1. epist. 3. calleth him a Priest, Defence 355. whome D. Whitgift would haue to be an Archbishop, & the papists affirme to be his elder brother the pope. Therefore by Cyprians iudge­ment, whosoeuer was a Bishop, was a priest. Again, Cyprian speaking of the election of a priest, by the consent of the whole people, lib. 1. epist. 4. hee ma­keth the same maner of electing Cornelius, Bishop of Rome, and calleth his Bishopricke a priesthood, lib. 4. epist. 2. Nowe, Tom. 1. Can. lib. 4 epist. 9. that Cyprian condemned su­periority among Bishops or ministers, his sentence in the counsell of Carthage prooueth it: where hee saith, that none of them made him selfe a Bishop of Bishops, he also reprooueth Pupianus, that he made himselfe a Bishop of a Bishop.

As to Ierom, 2. Reply 1. part pag. 591. Ierom. ad Euag M. Cartwright alleadgeth these places out of him. A priest, that is to say a Bishop, and a little after, the Apostle doth plainely teach, that a Bi­shop and a priest are all one. And in another place, Ad Oceanum. a Bishop and a priest are the same: againe although with the ancient fathers, Bishops and priests were al one.

Now good reader beare witnesse, whether Mai­ster Cartwright hath falsified the ancients or not, & whether this past shame Doctour, hath not cause to sow vp his lippes for euer opening them in pulpit a­gain. For the confirmation of the equalitie of Mini­sters, & that the name Bishop, was common vnto al the Ministers of the word and Sacraments in the an­cient times, thou maiest adde vnto that which hath bene already spoken. Ignatius ad Smyrnensis. First the testimony of Ignatius which saith, that it was not lawful for any to baptise, [Page 52]but for the Bishop. Where then M. Bancroft was the distinction, betweene him and the priest, or hys superioritie ouer the priest? Secondly, that in the time of Gregory the great, priestes did ordaine Bi­shops, and yet this is made one of the essentiall dif­ferences betweene a Bishop and a priest, Greg in Euan. a VVhitgift page 387. [a] that a Bishop may ordaine, whereas a priest hath no such authority. Thirdly, that Theod. mencioneth an 150 Bb. which were met, for the election of the Bishop of Constantinople. Theod. lib. 5. cap. 8. Where all these Bb. could bee gotten, if Bb. and Ministers were not all one, let M. Bancroft shew. Lastly, it would be knowne, what ac­count M. Bancroft maketh of that notable martyr M. Tindale, M. Tindales works. pag. 251. b. which speaking of priests and Bb. hath these words: ther is presbyteros, which same is saith he, Acts. 20.28. imediatly after called a Bishop: and in the same place, all that were Elders or priests (if they so will) were called Bishops also, though they haue deuided the name now. I hope he will not answere him, as hee doth Aerius, that this opinion was condemned for an heresie long ago, and none but heretikes and such leud persons euer since that time held it.

One thing I doe not a litle maruel at, both in M. Bancroft and all the rest of his coat, why they rather ioyne with Sir Thomas Moore and the papistes, M. Tindals an­swer to Moore. page. 251. in calling the Ministers of the word priestes, then with M. Tindale, and the most sincere professours in the world at this day, in abrogating that popishe name, and vsing the worde Minister, or Elder in the steade thereof. Admon. pa. 44. The B. of Winchester sayth, that the Arch­bishop hath shewed sufficient reasons against T. C. why the Ministers of the gospell should bee called [Page 53]priests, and all of them are of the same opinion, and will not take it patiently if they be gainsaid in it: but what account is to be made of them for this labor, [...] shal learne out of M. Tindale, page 14. 4. who in his obedience of a Christian man sayth, that the worde Sacerdos, should haue had another name in english, then priest, but that Antichrist hath deceiued vs with vnknowne and strange termes, to bring vs in­to superstitious blindnes, as for the word presbyte­ros saith he (both in this place, and against Moore in the place aboue cited) it ought in English, to bee translated Elder. This I thought good to admonish the reader, least hee should thinke mee in vsing the woorde priest, to allowe of that Antichristian name. Whether M. Cartwright hath truly alleadged Igna­tius and others, To the 98. pag. to prooue the vse and practise of the office of Elders in the Church, long after the Apo­stles time, because there is nothing but the pawn of M. Bancrofts credite brought to the contrary, I re­ferre the reader, to examine the testimonies vsed by M. Cartwright for that purpose. T. C. 1. reply 145. Especially the place of Ierome vpon Isaiah, who saith that they had also the presbitery or eldership in the church, and that of Ambrose vpon the 1. Tim. cap. 5. where he complai­neth, that through the pride & slouthfulnes of the Doctors, the Elders were worn out of the Church: were it not y ^t M. Chaplain carrieth his license in his bosome, to speake what hee will, I should wonder that he durst in open pulpit and writing, deny elders to be in the church long after the Apostles time, see­ing D. Whitgift telleth vs of his owne knowledge, that in the Primitiue Churche, they had in euerie [Page 54]church certaine seniors, to whome the gouernment of the congregation was committed. Whit. pag. 638. M. Bancroft, seeth there is no aduantage in granting any part of the truth, and therefore, hee taketh a round course, to deny euery thing without more a doo: Take his aduantage thereof who list.

His profanenes, Page. 98. in calling the Elders, Aldermen, the Lord I feare will reuenge, who cannot abide to haue the officers of his kingdome, derided and scof­fed at by any Lucian whosoeuer.

Your caueling with the proofes, To the 100.111. brought in by M. Cartwright, to shew the Eldershippe to be most flowrishing in Constantines time, i [...] a proofe, that you retaine your vsuall boldnesse in out facing the truth. If it bee not a good reason to say, that because there were infinite numbers of Bishops and Elders, at the councel of Nice, therefore the Eldership was in a flowrishing estate at that time, to what purpose, should they be present in that synod, if they had no­thing to do with the gouernement of the church? If they had to do with the gouernment of the church, the reason holdeth most forcible, to prooue the El­dership to be vp vnder Constantine. For wheresoe­uer there is a Church gouernement by Bishops and Elders, there the Eldership is in force. Though wee should graunt, Page 101. that you deale truly with Eusebius, yet his testimony is not a whit the weaker, to proue the gouernment by the Eldership, because he mea­neth nothing els, but to shew the great appearaunce from all places of the Cleargie men, of all sortes in that assemblie. Eor beit that his onely purpose was, to shewe this great concourse of Cleargy men, yet [Page]that hindereth not, but hee speaking of Bishops and elders met at the said Synod, we may thence gather, Bishops and Elders did gouerne the church at that that time.

That Bishoppes had large jurisdiction before the Nicene councel is onely affirmed, M Cart. 2. re­ply pag. 557.560. &c. and not prooued by you M. Bancroft: the contrary hath bene shew­ed. It is your manner to build vpon false grounds, which haue beene long since ouerthrone. The ap­pointing of Metropolitans (or confirming whether you will) at the councell of Nice, hindered not the gouernement of the Eldership to be in force. They had not such an vnruly jurisdiction, as the Archbi­shops doe vsurpe: The fifth Canon of the councell, whereby it is decreed, y ^t the disorders of the church, should bee compounded, at the prouinciall assem­blies, & not by that Metropolitans shew, what smal authority they had. They had but their owne suf­frages as euery other minister had. That which the councell of Nice attributed vnto them, was no more then chiefe place in the meetinges. Ibid. pag. 562. Aunswere that which M. Cartwright hath written in this questi­on, and then set downe your bolde conclusion: o­therwise, the reader will deride your boldnes, in pitching a campe of torne assertions, whereof, not one will be granted vnto you.

Faine would you I see, haue the people not to giue eare vnto vs, To the 103 104. page. and to that purpose you bring vp to them the reasons, that al Atheists haue for them selues, whie they wil not embrace the true religion. And that is because the professors thereof cannot a­gree among them selues. The godly are not igno­rant, [Page]that there must bee scismes in the Church of God, and therefore cannot stumble at the diuisi­ons among vs, [...]i if they bee any. Wee haue lear­ned of the blessed Apostle to bee so farre from a­greeing with any saue only in the truth, as we hold our selues bound to bid battel vnto at the Angels i [...] heauen, if they stand against the same. Our breaches would bee easily made vp, Pag if you woulde yeald the Church her right. As for your side, it is wel knowne howe little you agree saue only in the mayne drift, whereat you must al shoot, or els you shal soone fal to the ground. And that is in standing against the truth, Tot 111. & maintaining outragious coruptions. I haue alredy noted, that you in this short inuectiue against vs, haue twise scratched the Archbishop by the face, and that in matters of waight.

The 3. last pages of his Sermon, contain nothing in them, but generall exhortations, that the people would cleaue vnto the truth without wauering: the which wee earnestly entreat all men to doe, as they would bee saued in the day of the Lorde: And from our hearts we wish (if it be the Lords will) both vn­to them, and to all our aduersaries, and perticularlie vnto M. Bancroft, that immortall crowne of glorie, whereof, he speaketh in the last page, desiring them and him, notwithstanding to call to minde, that nei­ther lyers, Page 1 nor those that delight in lies, especially a­gainst gods truth and his church, shall euer be parta­kers thereof.