Abrief of the examination of me Henry Barrowe the 19. of Nouember. 1586. Before the Arch B. Arch D. and Dr. Cussins: as neere as my memorie could cary: being at Lambeth.
THis 19. being the Lords day / betwene 9. and 10. oft the clock in the fore noone / M [...] [...]ul and I went vnto the Clinke to visit M [...] ▪ Grenewood / and the other brethren there emprisoned: where we had not bene the space of one quarter of an howre / but Mr. Shephe [...]d the keeper of the prison came vp / rebuked Mr. Grenewood / and stayed me / saying he had commandement from his Lords grace so to doe. I demanded a sight of his warrant: he answered that he would doe it / and I might afterward if I were wronged / bring mine action. So he locked me vp in prison / and forthwith went to his Lords grace to Lambeth. About one of the clock he returned / and brought with him 2. pursuvantes. I was forthwith put into a boat / and caried to Lambeth. By the way / one of the pursuvants called Watson / drew out of his boso [...] a letter from the court of Lambeth vnto me / saying how he had a long time sought me. I told him / his paynes deserved thanks / neither at Gods handes nor mine: I refused his letter / and said that I obeyed neither it nor him / neither would I read it / shewing how I was vnder the arrest of the keeper of the Clinke who sate by me. Wel / we arrived at Lambeth / wher after I had perused the B. his state / I was brought into his presence chamber / yet not vntil this Watson had prevented me / and shewed his maister what had passed in the boat.
Barrowe / is your name Barrowe?
Yea.
It is told me / that yow refuse to receiue or obey our letter / know yow what yow doe? it is from the high commissioners / and this man a pursuvant.
I refused to receive or obey that letter at that time.
Why so?
Because I was vnder arrest / and imprisoned without warrant / and against law: and therfore now it was too late to bring the letter.
Why / may not a Counsellor commit to prison by his bare commandement?
That is not the question / what a counsellor may doe: but whither this man may doe it without warrant / by the law of the land:
Know yow the law of the land?
Very litle / yet was I of Grayes Inne some yeares.
Let this passe: I look for litle help by [Page] law against yow: I pray yow why haue yow imprisoned me / and after this manner sent for me?
That yow shal know vpon yowr oath: wil now sweare?
I hold it lawful to sweare / so it be done with due order and circumstances.
Reach a book / hold it him.
What shal we doe with this?
Lay your hand vpon it man.
To what purpose?
To sweare.
I Vse to sweare by no bookes.
Yow shal not sweare by the book / but by God oncly.
So I purpose when I sweare.
Did yow neuer take an oath at an Assise before the Judges there?
No.
But would yow refuse there to lay yowr hand on a book and sweare?
Yea.
Then would your testimonie not be taken.
Why man the book is no part of the oath / it is but a cerimonie.
A needlesse and wicked ceremonie.
Why know yow what yow say? know yow what book it is? it is the Bible.
I wil sweare by no Bible.
Scismaticks are clamorous alwayes. it is a perpetual note to know them by. A. M r. D r. Cussins saith true / such were the Donatistes alwayes in the counsels / and such art thow and al other scismatiks such as thow art.
Say yowr pleasure / God forgiue yow: I am neither scismatike nor clamourous: I answer but yowr demandes / if yow wil I wil be silent.
Wel wil yow lay your hand on the Bible and take an oath.
I vse to ioyne no creatures to the name of God in an oath.
Neither shal yow / this is but a custome commanded by law.
The law ought not to commannd a wicked custome.
Why / is it not lawful to lay your hand on a book?
Yes / but not in an oath.
Wil yow lay your hand in my hand / and sweare?
No.
Wil yow lay your hand on y e table and sweare?
No.
Wil yow hold vp your hand towards heauen and sweare?
That is not amisse: but I wil vse my libertie.
Why yow hold it lawful to lay your hand on the table and sweare?
Yea / so it be not commanded and made of necessitie.
Why / the booke is y • like: it is nothing of the oath but a thing indifferent.
If it be nothing of the othe / why doe yow so peremptorilie inioyne it? and if it be indifferent as yow say it is / then doe I wel in not vsing it.
Nay / yow doe not wel in refusing it / for therin yow shew yowr self disobedient to the higher powers set over yow by God.
Euen now yow said it was a thing indifferent: if it be so / ther is no power can bring me in bondage to my libertie.
Where finde yow that?
In S Paul. 1. Cor. The Arch B. Archd. D r. Cussins / al denied it. I affirmed it. a litle testament in greek and latine was brought me / and a Bible I looked foe the place but could not finde it: great sault was in my memorie / ffor I looked in the 10. chapter / neither [...]deed could I bethinke me where to finde it / they so interrupted me.
Your de [...]initie is like yowr law.
The word of God is not the worse for my il memorie.
Yow speak not as yow thinck / for yow are prowd.
I haue smal cause to be prowd of my memorie / yow see y t default of it: but the Apostle saith it. Againe they al denyed it. Yow then haue no cause to condemne my memorie / seing yow al haue vtterly forgotten this sayeng. Then repeated I the words: Al thinges are lawful for me / but I wil not be brought in bondage to my libertie. Then they recited. Rom. 14. and 1. Corint. 8. al thinges are lawful for me / but al thinges are not expedient. I said I meant not that place.
I would like it wel if yow cited your place in Greek or Latine.
Why yow vnderstand English: is not the word of God in English? Then Cussin began to speak of indefinita propositio, but whervpon I can not cal to remembranc: [...] I told him we were now about the new Testament / it might be if he had asked me that question when I knew him in Cambridge / I should then haue answered him he forthwith called to remembrance of what howse I was.
Were yow then of Cambridge?
Yea / I knew yow there. He said he was there before I was borne. I said it might be. Then he entred into discourse of his antiquititie. Then he asked me if I had read books / as Calvin / Beza etc▪ I answered that I had read more then ynough: But yet I know not why I am emprisoned.
It is reported that yow come not to church / are disobedeent to her maiestie / and say that ther is not a true church in England / what say yow / haue yow at any time said thus?
These are reportes. when yow produce yowr testimonie I wil answer.
But I wil better beleeue yow / vpon yowr oath / then them: how say yow / wil yow sweare?
I wil know what I sweare to / before I sweare.
ffirst sweare: and then if any thing be vnlawfully demaunded / yow shal not answer.
I haue not learned so to sweare / I wil first know and consider of the matter before I take an oath. Thus many thinges being alleaged to and fro by vs / the Arch B. commaunded Cussin to recorde / that I refused to sweare vpon a book.
pea / and set downe also / that I wil not sweare thus at randon / but first I wil know and consider of the thinges I sweare vnto / whither they require an oath.
Wel / when were yow at church?
That is nothing to yow.
Yow are a scismatick / a recusant / a seditious person / etc. with many such like.
Say what yow list of me / I freelie forgiue yow.
I care not for yowr forgiuenes.
But if yow offend me / yow ought to seek it / while yow are in the way with me.
When were yow at church?
I haue answered that in an other place / it belongeth not to yow.
Why / are yow indited?
I am.
Yet belongeth it to ys / I wil not onely medle with yow / but arraigne yow as an heretick before me.
Yow [Page] [...] no more then God [...]: Erre I may / but hereticke wil I never be.
Wil yow come to church hereafter?
ffuture thinges are in the Lords handes: if I doe not / yow haue a law.
Haue yow spoken these wordes of the church of England?
When yow produce your witnesse I wil answer.
But vpon your oath I wil beleeue yow.
But I wil not accuse my self. Then began he againe to charge me with scisme / sedition / heres [...]e.
Yow are lawlesse: I had rather yow produced yowr witnesse.
Of what occupation are yow?
A christian.
So are we al.
I deny that.
But are yow a minister?
No.
A scholemaister?
No.
What then / of no trade of life?
In your letter / yow know my trade in the superscription.
Yow are then a gentleman.
After the manner of our countrie a gentleman.
Serue yow any man?
No I am Gods freeman.
Haue yow landes.
No / nor fees.
How liue yow?
By Gods goodnes / and my freinds
Haue yow a father aliue?
Yea.
Wher dwelleth he in Norffolke?
Yea.
Wher dwel yow / in London?
No.
Wel can yow finde sufficient suretie for your good behaviour?
Yea / as sufficient as yow can take.
What / yow cannot haue the Queene?
Neither can yow take her / she is the iudge of her law: yet for my good behauiour / I suppose I could get her word.
Doth she know yow then?
I know her.
Els were it pitie of your life.
Not so.
Can yow haue any of these that came with yow / to be bound for yow?
I know not / I thinke I can.
What know yow them not?
I know one of them.
What is he?
A gentleman of Graies ynne.
What cal yow him?
Lacie.
But know yow what band yow should enter / yow are bound hereby to frequent our churches.
I vnderstand yow of my good behauiour.
And in it is this conteyned: and so yow had forseyted your band at the first.
Wel now I know yowr minde / I wil enter no such bande.
Then I wil send yow to prison. Then called he Watson the pursuvāt / and O. Cussins a part into a windowe / where he made a warrant to send me to prison.
[...]ow shal not touch one haire of my head / without the wil of my heauenly father.
Nay I wil doe this to rectifie yow.
Consider what yow doe / yow shal one day answer it.
Yow wil not sweare: yow wil not enter bond for your appearance.
I wil put in band for my baile in the prison / and for my true imprisonment.
Nay / that wil not serue the turne / M r. Doctor / enter these thinges. Then Cussins wrote that I refused to sweare / and enter bond.
I wil send some to yow to conferre.
That were more requisite before my imprisonment. So the Arch B. delivered me to the pursuvant to [Page] [...]arie me to the [...] / where I as yer [...] / neither knowing the cause of my imprisonment / neither haue I as yet heard from him.
I was no sooner out of his howse / but I remembred the place in controversie: it is written. 1. Cor. 6. 12. Al thinges are lawful for me / but al thinges are not profitable: I may doe al thinges / but I wil not be brought vnder the power of any thing.
The lord knoweth to deliver the god [...] out of t [...]ntation and to rese [...]e the [...]ust vnto the day of Judgement vnder punishment.
THe 27. of November / 8. daies after I was commited by Cant. to the Gatehowse: I was sent for by one of his servantes to make appearance before the high Commissioners at Lambeth: whither he and my keepers man Nitholas caried me. There I found a very great traine without / but within a goodlie Synode of Bbs. Oeanes / Civilians / etc. beside such an apparance of welfedde silken Preistes / as I suppose might wel haue b [...] seemed the [...]aticaue. where after to my no smal greif I had heard a scholemaister deny his maister Christ / I was called.
CAnterburie with a grimme and an angrie countenance beholding me / made discourse how I refused to sweare on a book etc. as fel out in our first meeting: and demannded whither I were now better advised / and would sweare. I answered / that I would not refuse to sweare vpon due occasion and circumstances.
Wil yow then now sweare?
I must first know to what.
So yow shal afterward.
I wil not sweare vnlesse I know before.
Wel I wil thus far satisfie your humour. London begā to interrupt / but Cant / cut him of / and produced a paper of obiections against me / which he delivered to one Beadle to read. It conteyned much matter / and many suggestions against me / disorderly framed according to the malitious humour of mine accuser / as / that I denyed God to haue a true church in England: and to proue this / the 4. principal causes framed in way of argumēt / as / the worship of God with vs is jdolatrie: ergo / no true church. They haue an Antichristian and jdolatrous ministerie: ergo no true church ffurther he saith / that the reverend father in God / my lords grace of Cant. and al the Bps. of the land / are Antichristes. ffurther he saith / that al the ministers in the land are theeues and m [...]therers / and secret hypocrites / and that al the preachers of the land are hirelinges. That Mr. Wiggington and Cartwright straine at a gnat / and swollow a camel.
[Page] [...]urther / he [...] a [...] writers / as [...]a [...]vin / Beza / etc. and saith that al catechismes are idolatrous / and not to be vsed. The reasons to these were vntrulie and disorderley set downe accordingly in the bil / which I cannot rehearse. L. How say yow Mr. Deane of Pauls / here is for yow / yow haue written a catechisme /
This fellow dea [...]es indifferently / he makes vs al alike. Thus far haue I satisfied yow: now yow know what yow shal sweare vnto: how say yow / wil yow sweare now?
My Lordes grace doth not shew this favour to many.
ffetch a book.
It is needles.
Why / wil yow not sweare now.
An oath is a matter of great importance / and requireth great consideration. But I wil answer yow truly / Much of the matter of this bil is true / but the forme is false.
Goe to sirra / answer directlie / wil yow sweare? reach him a book.
Ther is more cause to sweare mine accuser: I wil not sweare.
Where is his keeper? yow shalnot prattle here Away with him: clap him vp close / close / let no man come at him: I wil make him tel an other tale / per I haue done with him.
Ther was an article against me in the bil / for saying that I thought Elders were Bisshops / and Philip. 1. 1. produced here by I plainly discouer mine accuser to be Thornelie of Norwich with whom I had communication at Ware as I rode to London / and never talked with any other about this matter.
THe effect / and so neere as my fraile memorie could cary away / the very wordes of such interrogatories and answers as were demāded of and made by me Henry Barrowe before certeyne Commissioners ther vnto especially appointed by her Maiestie: namely the two L. cheef Justices / the maister of the Rolles / the L. cheef Baron / and another Baron of the Exthequor I thinck Baron Gente: togither with the Arch B. of Cant the B. of London / the B. of Winchester / certaine of their Chan [...]ellors and [...]uil Doctors with their Registers and Scribes. The 24. of March.
I being brought before the Arch B of Cant he made knowne vnto me that they were authorised by her Maiestie to examine me vpon my oath vpon certaine interrogatories and therfore called for a booke / ther was brought a great bible in folio faire bound / which the Arch B. refused / and called for an other / which was held to me by [Page] [...]
To what ende?
To sweare.
I haue not learned to sweare by any creatures.
This is the word of God / the Bible.
I began to open the book / and meant in deed to haue asked him / if the Apocrypha scripture / and notes which were in it / were the word of God: but Cant. belike suspecting some such matter would not suffer me to look into it / to whom then I answered that that booke was not the eternal Word of God / that eternal God himselfe / by whom onely I must sweare / and not by any bookes or Bibles.
So yow shal sweare by God.
To what purpose then is this booke vrged? I may sweare by nothing besides him / nor by nothing with him.
How proue yow that?
It is so commanded in the book of the law. Deut. 6. and 10. Chapt. so expounded by sundrie of the prophets / by Christ himselfe and his Apostles.
Wel wil yow sweare that yow wil answer nothing but the truth / and the whole truth / to such Interr. as we shal demaund of yow?
I haue learned to know the matter before I either sweare or answer.
Set downe that he wil not sweare.
Justice. Yow shal onely sweare to answer the truth: if any vnlawful thing be demaunded of yow / yow need not answere.
My Lord / euery truth requireth not an oath / ther must great regard and reuerence be vsed in an oath / and an oath for confirmation ought to be the ende of al strife: My Lo. if I should erre / and deliuer it vpon mine oath for truth / it were a double sinne / likewise if I should eyther not know / not remember / or not vtter the whole truth / I were by such a rash oath forsworne: But by Gods grace I wil answer nothing but the truth.
A Christian mans word ought to be as true as his oath / we wil proceed with yow without your oath /
what say yow to this. Is it lawful to say the Pater noster publickly in the church / or priuatly / as a prayer or no?
I know not what yow meane by your Pater noster / vnlesse peradventure that forme for prayer which our sauiour Christ taught his disciples / commonly called the Lordes prayer.
I so meane. Then commanded he the first question to be thus written. Quest. 1. Whither he thinketh the Lordes prayer may publickly in the Church / or privatly be vsed as a prayer or no?
My answer then to the first question was. Ans. It is to be vsed to that ende for which it was giuen by our sauiour Christ to his disciples / as a sununarie groundworke or foundation of al faithful prayers / wherby to instruct and assure their consciēces / that their petitions are according to the wil and glory of God: But that these prescript wordes are i [...]io [...]ned / or that Christ [Page] [...] in the scripture. Moreouer I see not how it can be vsed as a prayer / seing that our particuler wantes and present occasions and necessitie [...] / are not therin expressed. And therfore I thinke it not to be vsed as a prayer.
Quest. 2. Wither he thinketh that any Leitourgies / or prescript formes of prayer may be imposed vpon the church: and whither al read and stinted prayers be mere babling in Gods sight? Ans. I finde in the worde of God [...] such authoritie giuen to any man / neither such stinted leitourgies prescribed or vsed in the primitiue churches: and therfore hold it high presumtion to impose any one deuised Apocrypha praier vpon the church.
Q. 3. Whither he thinketh that the common praiers commaunded by the publick authoritie of this land / be idolatrous superstitious and popish? A. I thinke that this book of common prayer publickly inioyned and receiued in the assemblies of this lande / is wel nigh altogither idolatrous superstitious and popish. Q. 4. Whither he thinketh that the Sacraments which are publikly administred in the church of England be true Sacramentes or no? A. I thinke that the Sacramētes as they are ministred in these publike assemblies / are not true Sacramentes: and seale not the fauour and blessing of God vnto them. Q. 5. Whither he thinketh that the lawes and gouerment of the church of England now by authoritie established be vnlawful and Antichristian / or no? A. Because the lawes decrees and canons of your church are so many and infinite / I can not iudge of them al / because I know not al: but this I say / that many of them / as also your Ecclesiastical courtes and gouernours / are vnlawful and Antichristian. Q. 6. Whither he thinketh that such as haue bene baptised in the church of England / since Queene Elisabethes reigne / haue bene rightly baptised / or ought to be baptised againe? A. I thinke as before of yowr Sacramentes / that they haue not bene rightly baptised / according to the institution of Christ: Yet that they need not / neither ought to be baptised againe. (I doubt least the Arch B. hearing my answer of rebaptising / caused it to be left out of the question and my answer / taking that which might best serue their owne turne / to bring vs into suspicion of error / and hatred. Herevnto many speeches arising of the true and false Sacramentes / ministerie / gouerment / as also of the true and false church: I shewed that the false church had also her Sacramentes ministery / gouerment / though not aright. Then Judge Anderson caused this question to be moued to me. Q 7. Whither the church of England as it standeth now established / be the true established church of Christ: and whither the people therin / be the true and faithful people of God / or no. A. I thinke that these parish assemblies as they stand generally in England / are not the true established [Page] churches of Christ: and that the people as they now stand in this disorder and confusion in them / are not to be held the true and faithful people of Christ. Here the Judge Anderson took exception
at these wordes
I answered the Judge / that I could not for some weightie respectes spare him that word: for I doubted not / but that the Lord had many pretious and elect vessels among them / whom he wil in his good time cal forth / whom it became not me absolutely to iudge least I should enter into Gods seat: Yet I could not in the meane time whiles they stand members of these assemblies / count them faithful. To the B. I said / that when they should better consider of mine answer / they should haue lesse cause to finde fault. Much trouble we had before we could agree of the state and wordes of their questions / with putting out and changing / which discourses it is not my purpose here to set downe so much as the questions and answers agreed vpon and recorded: although [...] some causes knowne to my selfe / and to some of their consciences which may hereafter be knowne to al the world / I thought it not imper [...] nent to insert this. Q 8. Whither he thinketh the Queenes maiestie be supreme gouernour of the church: and whither she may ma [...]e lawes for the church / which are not contrary to the word of God / or no? A. I thinke the Queenes maiestie svpreme gouernour of the whole land / and ouer the church also / bodies and goods: but I thinke that no Prince / neither the whole world / neither the chvrch / it self may make any lawes for the church / other then Christ hath already left in his worde. Yet I thinke it the dutie of euery Christian / and principally of the Prince / to enquire out and re [...]e the lawes of God / and stir vp al their subiectes to more diligent and careful keeping of the same. A [...] we had much a doe to come to the state of this question / so the [...] shewed themselues euil satisfied with my answer / and said that the Papistes dealt more simply then I did: and surely they very greevouslie interrupted me with slanders / euil speeches and blasphemes / during the time of my writing these answers / especially the B of Lond. so that I was euen inforced sometime to turne vnto him and shew him of his shamelesse vntruthes and slanders. The chief justice of Engl. here saide that he thought I answered very directly and compendiously. Here againe / vpon some speech that arose / the Judge Anderson asked me whither I thought it lawful to hang a theef or no? I answered that ther were many kinde of theeues / as sacrilegious theeues / men stealers etc. that these ought by the lawes of God to die. Then he said he meant ordinary theeues of goodes and chattels. I said / that God in the law had ordeyned an other kinde of punishment for such / whervpon the Bb. framed this question. Q. 9. Whither it be lawful for the Prince to alter the iudicial lawe of Moses / according to the state of her countrie and pollicie / or no? A. I ought to be wise in sobrietie / [Page] and not to answer more then I know. Great doubt and controversie hath bene about this question a long time / but for my part I can not see / that any more of the iudicial law was or can be abrogated by any mortal man or countrie / vpon what occasion soeuer / then belonged to the ceremonial law and worship of the Temple / for which we haue received other lawes and worship in Christes testament: but that the iudgementes due and set downe by God for the transgression of the moral law / cānot be changed or altered / without iniury to the moral law and God himselfe. Yet this / as al my other answers by protestation / that if any man can better instruct me therin by the word of God / I am alwayes ready to change my minde. Whervpon the cheif Justice of Engl. said I spake wel: and therfore said if I were in doubt / mine answer ought not to be taken. I said / I doubted not / but had set downe my minde. Yet the Bbs. because my answer fitted not their turnes / as I thinke / commaunded the question and answer to be blotted out. Q. 10 Whither he thinketh that any priuate man may take vpon him to reforme / if the Prince wil not / or neglect.
A. I thinke that no man may intermedle with the Princes office / without lawful calling thervnto: and therfore it is vtterly vnlawful for any priuate man to reforme the state / without his good liking and license / because the Prince shal account for the defaultes of his publick gouerment / and not priuate men / so they be not guiltie with the Prince in his offences / but absteine and keep them selues pure from doing or consenting to any vnlawful thing commaunded by the Prince / which they must doe as they tender their owne saluation. Q. 11. Whither he thinketh that euery parish or particuler church ought to haue a Presbyterie? A. The holy gouernment of Christ belongeth not to the prophane or vnbeleeuing / neither can it without manifest sacrilege be set ouer these parishes as they now stande in confusion / no differēce made betwixt the faithful and vnbeleeuing / al being in differently receiued into the body of the church: but ouer euery particuler congregation of Christ ther ought to be an eldership / and euery such congregation ought to their vtter most power to endeuour thervn [...]. Now was I dismissed / and committed againe to my keeper / with streight charge that no man might speak to me. During this time / others of my brethren were examined / which being done / I was called for in vnto them where Cant. shewed me the statute of supremacie / and asked me if I would take an oath according to the same. I said that in that forme I could not / neither could I sweare to such successors as I knew not: but to her Maiestie / I acknowledged her authoritie as I had expressed in my article and protested my life in defence of her person prerogatiue and dignitie loyally against al foreme and domestical enemies [Page] whither spiritual or temporal. The Arch B. said / that the Papistes made a better and more dutiful oath then this. I said it was not true / they denyed not / neither defied the Pope: but I was ready to giue and performe as much vnto my Prince as any true subiect ought to doe. He asked me againe whither the church of Christ / if the Pruite deny or refuse to neglect abuses / may without staying for the Prince reforme them? I said / that it might and ought though al the Princes of the world should prohibit the same vpon paine of death. He asked me againe whither the church of Christ might excommunicate the Prince / and who should pronounce it? I said / that sin obstinatly stood in / did excommunicate / and that the church ought to haue judgemēt ready against euery transgression without respect of persons / and that the Pastor of the church ought to pronounce it / and alleaged that excommunication / was giuen vnto the church as the onely and last remedie for the saluation of the partie in such cases / and that the neglect therof was both the neglect of Gods iudgementes / their dutie / and the Princes saluation: and that they might as wel take away al admonitions and reprehensions from Princes / and so Princes were in a most miserable case. These my answers were not written with mine owne hand / but by the Register: And so was I sent againe with moe commaundementes yet to keep me more streightly. I requested at both times a copy of my answers / but the Arch B. denyed it me.
VPon the 18. day of the 3. moneth / I Henry Barrowe close prisoner in the ffleet / was sent for in al post hast / by one [...]agland a Gent. of the L. Chancellors to his Lordes chamber at the court at White-hall: wher being arriued / I found in a withdrawing chamber / 12. of the brethren / among a great number of other attendances / with whom I could not haue any one word: But after that [...] gland had signified my coming / I was forthwith sent for into that chamber / where sate at the boord the Arch B. in his pontificalibus / the L. Chancellor / the L. Treasurer / the L. Buchhurst / the B. of Lond. in his pontificalibus: at the lower ende of the chamber stood Dr. Some / Justice Young and others.
BEing kneeled downe at the ende of the table / the L. Treasurer began and asked me my name: which when I had told him he asked me if I had not bene sometime of the court: I answered / that I had sometime frequēted the court: he said he remembred me not.
Why are yow in prison Barrowe?
I am in prison my Lo. vpon the statute made for recusantes.
Why wil yow not goe to church?
My whole desire is to come to the church of God.
Thow art a fantastical fellow I see / but why not to our churches?
My Lo. the causes are great and many / it were too long to shew them in particuler: but breifly my Lo. I can not come to your church / because al the profane and wicked of the lande are receiued into the body of your church / 2. Yow haue a false and Antichristian ministery set ouer your church. 3. Neither worship yow God aright / but after an jdolatrous and superstitious māner: 4. and your church is not gouerned by Christes Testament / but by the Romish courtes and canons / etc.
Here is matter ynough in deed: I perceiue thow takest delight to be an author of this new religion. The L. Chanc. said he neuer heard such stuffe before in al his life.
As I was about to shew that neither I was an author of this religiō and that it was not new as they supposed: the B. of Lo. interrupted me / and asked me wherin their worship was jdolatrous? The L. Treas. also demaunded the same question.
Ther is nothing els in that book of your common prayer: being demaunded some particulers / I shewed that their saintes daies / eues / fastes / idol feastes / etc.
Stay there: why / is it not lawful to keep a memorial of the Saintes in the church?
Not after your manner: it is jdolarrie.
How proue now that?
By the 1. commaundement.
Why / that is / thow shalt haue no other Gods but me. What of that?
The word is / Thow shalt haue no other Gods before m [...] face. We are therfore forbidden to giue any part of Gods worship to any creature.
Why / neither doe we.
Yes / yow celebrate a day / and sanctifie an eaue / and cal them by their names / yow make a feast / and deuise a worship vnto them.
Why / may we not cal the day after their names? is not that in our libertie?
No my Lord.
How proue yow that?
In the beginning of the booke it is written that God himselfe named al the dayes / the first the second / etc.
Why then we may not cal them Sunday / Monday etc.
We are otherwise taught to cal them in the booke of God.
Why thow they selfe callest it the Lordes day.
And so the holy Ghost calleth it in the [...]. of the Reuelation.
We haue nothing in our saintes dayes / but that which is taken forth of the Scriptures.
In that yow say true / for yow finde no Saintes dayes in the Scriptures.
We finde their Histories and deedes in the Scripture.
But not their dayes and festiuals in the Scripture. The Lo. Buckh. then said / I was a proud spirit. The L. Treas. said I had a hotte braine: and taking into his hande a book of common prayer / which lay on the boord / read certaine of the collectes for the Sainte [...] [Page] [...] Scripture: and asked me what I could [...] therin?
I mislike al for we ought not so to vse Scriptures or prayers.
May we not make commemoration of the saintes fiues in the church.
Not after yowr manner / to giue peculier dayes / eues / fastes / worship / feastes vnto them.
But what is there jdolatrous?
Al / for we ought not so to vse the Scriptures.
What not in commemoration of the Saintes?
As I haue said not after yowr manner.
But what is euil here?
All my Lo. for by abusing the Scripture we may make it an jdol The circumstantes make euil thinges / of themselues good / as in the mass [...]ook from whence this stuffe is fetched / there are sundry good collectes and places of scripture which their superstitious abuse make abhominable and euil. Likewise coniurers make many good prayers which the circumstances also make euil. Here the Lo. Buckh. said I was out of my wittes.
No my Lo. I speak the wordes of sobernes and truth as I could make plaine if I might be suffered.
Here we pray / that our liues may be such as theirs was void of couetousnes
So ought we to doe / and not to reade or haue any parte of the scripture without fruite / and to follow and flee that which we finde praised and discommended in them: yet ought we not to vse the scriptures in this manner to dayes and times / neither to be thus restreyned or stinted in our prayers / as to be tied to this forme of wordes / place / time / manner / kneele / stand etc.
This fellow delighteth to heare himselfe speake.
Then the Arch B. also spake many thinges against me / of smal effect / which I haue also forgotten / onely this I remember he said / I was & strower of errors / and that therfore he committed me.
In deed yow committed me halfe a yeare close prisoner in the Gatehowse / and I neuer vntil now vnderstood the cause why / neither as yet know I what errors they be / shew them therfore I pray yow. The L. Buckh. againe said I was a presumtuous spirit.
My Lo. al spirits must be tried and iudged by the word of God: but if I erre my Lo. it is meet I should be shewed wherin.
Ther must be streighter lawes made for such fellowes.
Would to God ther were my Lo. our iourny should be the shorter.
Yow complained to vs of iniustice / wherin haue yow wrong?
My Lo. in that we are thus imprisoned without due trial.
Why / yow said yow were condemned vpon the statute.
Vniustly my Lo. that statute was not made for vs.
Ther must be streighter lawes made for yow.
O my Lo. speak more comfortablie / we haue sorrowes ynough.
In deed thow lookest as if thow hadst a troubled conscience.
No I praise God for it. but [Page] [...] wen against her faithful subiectes. The L. Tr. answered that the Queenes sword was not as yet drawen against vs. Then in a word or two I complayning of the misery and lingring close imprisonment which we suffer: the L. Tr: demaunded if we had had no conference. The B. of Lond. answered that sundrie had bene with vs▪ as D. Some / Grauiat and others / but we mocked them that came vnto vs.
That is not true / the Lord knoweth: we mock no creature. Neither doe I know / or haue euer seene / to my remembrance / that Grauiat yow speak of. But miserable phisitians are yow al / for M r. Some he indeed was with me but neuer would enter disputation: he said / he came not therefore / but in reasoning manner to know some what of my minde more cleerly. Some was then by the Arch B. called / and demaunded whither we had conference or no? Some shewed how that at our last conference before S r. A. G. ther arose a question betwirt vs / whither the Prince might make a positiue law / de rebus me [...]ijs of thinges indifferent: I denying it / he asked me whither she migt make a statute for the reforming excesse of apparel? I graunted that she might. He then said it was a doctrine of Divils to forbid meate by a positiue law: he shewed me then that the Princes law did not binde the conscience / and that ther is a difference betwirt forum ciuile and forum conscientiae. Some to this effect. M r. Young then vncalled came / and accused me of vnreuerend speeches vsed against his Lords grace / at my first conference with Some in my chamber: so they were dismissed. Then I beseeched the L [...]s. to graunt a publicke conference / that it might appear [...] to al men / what we held / and where we erred. The Arch B. in great choller said / we should haue no publicke conference / we had published to much already / and therfore he now committed vs close prisoners.
But contrary to law. The L. Tr. said / it might be vpon such occasions done by law: and asked whither I had any learning? Cant. and Lond. with one consent answered togither that I had no learning.
The Lord knoweth I am ignorant / I haue no learning to boast of: but this I know / that yow are voide of al true learning and godlines.
See the spirit of this man. Then requested I conference againe / and that in writing: which was againe by Cant. very peremtorilie denyed. He said that he had matter to cal me before him for an hereticke.
That shal yow neuer doe: yow know my former answer to that matter: wel erre I may / but hereticke / by the grace of God wil I neuer be.
That is wel said. The L. Tr: then taking vp a paper of Somes abstract questions / which lay among the Bs euidence against me / read this: That I held it vnlawful to enacte a law that the ministers shal liue by tithes / or the people pay them: and demaunded of me whither I held tithes vnlawful?
My Lo. they are abrogated and vnlawful.
Why / tho [...] wouldest [Page] [...] haue the [...] of somewhat / wherof should he [...]?
Ex pura eleemosyna, of clere almes as Christ in his Testament hath ordeyned / and as he and his Apostles.
But how if the people wil not giue?
Such are not the people of God.
But what shal the ministers doe in the meane time?
Not stand a minister to such / neither take the goods of the prophane.
Where canst thow shew me now in the Scriptures that the ministers now ought not to liue vpon tithes?
I took the bible and turned to these two places. Heb. 7 / 12. Gal. 6 / 6. in the one where tithes are abrogate: in the other / that an other provision is made for them.
began the [...]auil at the wordes / pure and cleere almes: Cant. at the place in the Hebr. saying that the authors intent was to proue an abrogation of the preisthod.
Why / the wordes of the text are these: If the preisthod be changed / then of necessitie must ther be a change of the law: and yow cannot deny but that tithes were a part of that law: alleging / Num. 18.
What / wouldst thow haue him to haue al my goodes?
No my Lo. but I would haue yow to withhold none of your goodes from helping him: neither rich nor pore are exemted from this duty. ffurder I shewed / that if the minister had thinges necessarie / as food and rapment / he ought to hold him self contented: neither ought the church to giue him more. Then had we some talke concerning the word Preist: the L. Tr. said that the ministers now were not to be called preistes.
If they receiue tithes they are preistes. Moreouer they be called preistes in the law.
Why / what is the word presbyter / I pray yow?
An elder.
What in age onely?
No / Timothie was a yong man.
Presbyter is latine for a preist.
It is no latine word / but deriued / and signifieth the same which the greek word doth / which is an Elder. Lon. what makest thow a preist? B. Him that doth offer sacrifices / for so it is written euery where in the law. As we were thus reasoning / the L. Chanc. asked me if I knew not those two men
Yes my Lo. I haue cause to know them.
But what is not this the Bp. of London?
I know him for no Bishop my Lo.
What is he then?
His name is Elmar my Lo.
What is that man?
The Lord gaue me the spirit of boldnes / so that I answered: He is a monster / a miserable compound / I know not what to make him: he is neither Ecclesiastical nor ciuil / euen that second Beast spoken of in the Reuelation.
Wher is that place / shew it.
So I turned to the 13. Chap. and began at the 11. verse / and read a litle. Then I turned to 2. Thes. 2. But the Beast / arose for anger / gnashing his teeth / and said / wis yow suffer him my Lords? So I was pluckt vp by the Wardens man [Page] from my [...]nees / and caried away. As I was [...]e parting / I desired the Lo. Treas. that I might haue the libertie of the aire / but had no answer: and I prayed the Lord to blesse their honours. So I was led forth by an other way then I came in / that I might not see the brethren / nor they me. This is the effect / so neere as my euil memorie could cary away / the very wordes that were vsed to me and by me in that place. The Lord pardon my vnworthines / and vnsanctified hart and mouth / which can bring no glory to the Lord / or benefite to his church: but rather reproch to the one / and affliction to the other. But the Lord knoweth how to deliuer the godly out of tentation / and to reserue the vniust vntil the day of iudgement vnder punishment. The L. Treas. admonished me / and told me that I took the Lords name often in vaine: I haue forgotten vpon what occasion he spake it. But I beseech the Lord that I may not forget this his good admonition / but may set a more careful watch before my lippes: for sure no doubt I am greatly guiltie that way / and neuer vse his holy name with that reuerence I ought.
THe answers of John Grenewood / at London pallace / before the 2. L. chief Justices of Engl. the Mr. of the Rolles / the L. chief Baron / togither with the Arch B. of Cant. the B. of Lond. the B. of Winch. with others: to certaine interrogatories as foloweth.
Q. WHat is your name? A. John. Grenewood. Q. Lay yowr hand vpen the book / yow must take an oath. A. I wil sweare by the name of God if ther be any need / but not by or vpon a book. Q. We wil then examine yow without an oath. Are yow a minister? A. No / I was one after your orders. Q. Who disgraded yow? A. I disgraded my self through Gods mercy by repentance. (then after many wordes / they brought forth a paper conteyning certaine articles in manner of questions as foloweth) Q. Is is lawful to vse the Lordes prayer publickly or privatly as a prayer / or no? A. It is a doctrine to direct al our prayers by: but seing it conteyneth the doctrine of the holy Scripture / no man can vse the same as a private or publick prayer / because he hath not present need to aske al the peticions therin conteyned / at one time: neither can comprehend them with feeling and faith. Q. Is it lawful or no? I wil heare no pratling. A. It is not lawful for any thing I can see by the Scripture for ther is no commaundement to say the very wordes ouer: and Christ and his Apostles prayed in other wordes according to their present necessitie. Q. Is it lawful to vse any stinted prayers either publickly or privatly in prayer? A. They are Apocrypha / and may not be vsed in the publick assemblie: the word / and the graces of Gods spirit / are onely to be vsed there. Q. Answer directly / is it lawful to vse them publickly or privatly? [Page] A. Paul saith in Rom. 8. the spirit of God maketh request for vs / and, that we know not what to aske / but the spirit helpeth our infirmities Q. Answer directly. A. It is not lawful to vse stinted prayers invented by man / either publickly or privatly for any thing I can see by the Scriptures. Q. What say yow then to the book of common prayer / is it superstitious popish and idolatrous / yea or no? A. I beseech yow that I may not be vrged by your law: I haue thus long bene close prisoner / and therfore desire yow to shew me wherfore / and not now to entangle me by your law. Q. Is it not yowr law now as wel as ours: it is the Queenes law: Yow are a good subiect. A. I am obedient as a true subiect. But I took it we had reasoned of your popish canons. Q. Is not the common prayer booke / established by the Queenes law?
Tel vs what yow thinke of the book of common prayer / yow shal haue libertie to calback what yow wil againe. A. If it were in free conference / as it hath bene often desired by vs / I would so doe.
Haue yow not vsed these wordes a yeare a goe / that it was popish superstitious and idolatrous? A. Yes I thinc [...] I haue: for it was taken out of the Popes portuis. Q. Why would yow not answer so before? A. Because I see yow goe about to bring me with in the compasse of the law.
What say yow now to [...]? A. That ther ar many errors in it / and the forme therof is disagreeable to the Scriptures.
Is it contrary to the Scriptures. A. It must needs be contrary if it be disagreable.
Whither hold yow it idolatrous / superstitious and popish? A. I haue answered what I thinke of it: I hold it ful of errors / and the forme therof disagreable to the Scriptures. Q. What say yow for mariage: did not yow marie one Boman and his wife▪ in the Fleet? A. No / neither is mariage a part of the ministers office. Q. Who did vse prayer? A. I thinke / I did at that time vse prayer. Q. Who ioyned their handes togither? A. I know no such thing / they did publickly acknowledge their consent before the assemblie.
I wil make them doe penance for it. A. Ther be some had more need shew open repētance then they.
They may make such mariages vnder a hedge / and it hath bene along receiued order to be maried by the minister. A. No / ther were many faithful witnesses of their consentes: and if it were not lawful / we haue many examples of the ancient fathers / who by your iudgement did amisse. Q. What say yow to the church of England / is it a true established church of God? A. The whole common wealth is not a church.
But doe yow know any true established church in the land? A. If I did / I would not accuse them vnto yow. Q. But what say yow / is not the whole land as it standeth now ordered / a true established church? A. No / not as the assemblies are generally ordered / if it please yow / I [Page] wil shew yow the reasons.
No / yow shal haue ynough hereafter to shew the reasons / it is not now to be stood vpon. Q. What doe yow say to the church of England as it is now guided by Bbs. is it Antichristian? A. Bp such Bs. and lawes as it is now guided / it is not according to the Scriptures.
Thow hast Scriptures often in thy mouth: is it then Antichristian. A. Yea / I hold it contrarie to Christes word. Q. What say yow to the Sacramentes then / are they true Sacramentes? A. No / they are neither rightly administred according to Christes institution / neither haue promise of grace / because yow keep not the covenant. Q. Speak plainly / are they true Sacramentes or no? A. No / if yow haue no true church y [...]w can haue no true Sacramentes. Q. How say yow / are we baptised? A. Yea / yow haue the outward signe which is the washing / but no true Sacrament. Q. How can that be? A. Very wel.
Q. Is it lawful Baptisme? A. Yea. Q. Need we then to be baptised againe if we had that ministerie and gouerment yow speak of? A. No. Q. Should we be baptised at al? A. Yea / or els if we contenme it / we deny the profession of grace. Q. Doe yow hold it lawful to baptise children? A. Yea / I am no Anabaptist I thanke God. Q. How far differ yow? A. So far as truth from errors. Q. Yow haue a boy vnbaptised / how old is he? A. A yeare and a halfe. Q. What is his name? A. Abel. Q. Who gaue him that name? A. Myself / being father. Q. Why hath he not bene baptised? A. Because that I haue bene in prison / and cannot tel where to goe to a reformed church / wher I might haue him baptised according to Gods ordinance. Q. Wil yow goe to church to S [...]. Brides? A. I know no such church. Q. Wil yow goe to Pauls? A. No. Q. Doe yow not hold a parish / the church? A. If al the people were faithful hauing Gods law and ordinances practised amongst them / I doe. Q. Then yow hold that the parish / doe not make it a church? A. No / but the profession which the people make. Q. Doe yow hold that the church ought to be gouerned by a Presbyterie? A. Yea / euery congregation of Christ ought to be gouerned by that Presbyterie which Christ hath appointed. Q. What are those officers? A. Pastor / Teacher / Elder / etc. Q. And by no other? A. No / by no other then Christ hath appointed. Q. May this people and presbyterie reforme such thinges as be amisse without the Prince? A. They ought to practise Gods lawes / and correct vice br the censure of the word. Q. What if the Prince forbid them? A. They must doe that which God commaundeth neuerthelesse. Q. If the Prince doe offende / whither may the presbyterie excommunicate the Prince or no? A. The wole church may excommunicate any member of that congregation, If the partie continue obstinate in open transgression. [Page] Q. Whither may the Prince be excommunicate? A. Ther is no exception of person: and I doubt not but her maiestie would be ruled by the word / for it is not the men / but the word of God which bindeth and looseth sinne. Q. Whither may the Prince make lawes in the gouerment of the church / or no? A. The Scripture hath set downe sufficient lawes for the worship of God / and gouerment of the church / to which no man may adde or diminish. Q. What say yow to the Princes supremacie / is her maiestie supreme head of the church: ouer al causes / as wel ecclesiastical as temporal? A. A supreme magistr [...] ouer al persons to punish the euil and defend the good. Q. Euer al causes? etc. A. No / Christ is onely head of his church and his lawes may no man alter. Q. The pope giueth th [...] much to the Prince. A. No / that he doth not / he setteth himself aboue Princes [...]nd exempteth his preisthod from the magestrates sword. Q. What say yow to the oath of the Queenes supremacie / wil yow answer to it? If these ecclesiastical orders be meant such as be agreeable vnto the scriptures / I wil / for I deny al forreigne power. Q. It is meant / the order and government with al the lawes in the church as it is now established. A Then I wil not answer to approue thereof.
A breif summe of the examination of John Penrie / by the right worshipful Mr. Fanshaw / and Mr. Justice Young the 10. of the fourth moueth April. 1593.
IT is strange vnto me / that yow hold such opinions (Penry) as none of the learned of this age / or any of the martyrs of former times mainterned. Can yow shew any writers / either old or new / that haue bene of your iudgement?
I hold nothing / but what I wilbe bound to proue out of the written word of God / and wil shew in regard of the special pointes controverted / to haue bene mainteyned by the holy martyrs of this land / who first assailed the Babylonis [...] ▪ Romane kingdome / as namely by Mr. Wicliffe / Mr. Brute / Mr. Purvey / Mr. White etc. with many other the famous witnesses and martyrs of Christ in former times: and by Mr. Tindal / Mr. Lambert / Mr. Barnes / Mr. Lat [...]er etc. the lordes most blessed witnesses of this latter age. I spea [...] nothing here of the doctrine and practise of the reformed churches mother countries whom I haue wholly of my side / in the controversies of greatest moment.
But doe the martyrs teach yow that ther is no church of Christ in England?
If yow meane by a church (as the most doe) that publick profession wherby men doe professe saluation to be had by the death and righteousnes of Jesus Christ / I am free from denping [Page] any church of Christ to be in this land: for I know the doctrine touching the holy trinitie / the natures and offices of the Lord Jesus / free iustification by him / both the Sacramentes / etc. published by her maiesties authoritie and commaunded by her lawes / to be the Lordes blessed and vndoubted truthes / without the knowledge and profession wherof no saluation is to be had.
Seing yow acknowledge that her maiestie hath established the truth in so many weightie pomtes / seing she hath commaunded the true Sacramentes to be administred: what mislike yow in our church / and why wil yow not be partaker of these truthes and Sacramentes with vs.
I mislike / 1. the false ecc [...]estastical offices / 2. the manner of caling vnto the offices / 3. a great parte of the workes wherin these false officers are imployed / 4. the maintenance or livinges / wherby they are mainteyned in their offices: al which / I wilbe bound to proue
to be deriued / not from Jesus Christ / but from the kingdome of Antichrist his great enemie. And therfore for as much as I cannot be partaker of the former holy thinges of God / but I must be subiect vnto the power of Antichrist in these officers / and knowen by those markes wherby his subiectes are noted / therfore I am enforced and bound to seek the comfort of the word and Sacramentes / wher I may haue them without the submitting of my self vnto any ecclesiastical power in religion / saue onely vnto that which is deriued from Christ Jesus the Lord / in whom al fulnes of power dwelleth / (Col. 1. 19.) and from whom al those must deriue their power and office / vnto whom the saintes of God are to submitte their consciences to be wrought vpon in religion. Againe / seing the forenamed 4. enormities of this church / are markes which properly belong vnto the kingdome of the Beast / viz. of the Romane Antichrist / we dare not haue any communion and fellowship with them / nor be knowen by them / least we should be partakers of those most fearful and most dreadful iudgementes / which are denounced by the spirit of God / against al those that haue communion with any of the irreligious inventions of that Beast. Reuel. 14 / 9. 10. These are the thinges / togither with the want of Christes true order / which I especially mislike / and the special causes why I dare not ioyne with the assemblies of this Land. 1. the false offices wherby these assemblies are guided / and by whom the whole worship is performed in them: 2. their manner of caling / 3. a great part of the devised workes wherin these officers are conversant. 4. the livinges consecrated sometimes vnto Idols for the most part / wherby they are susteyned in their offices.
What offices meane yow?
I meane the offices of Lord Arch Bbs. and Bbs. Archdeatons / Commissaries / Chancellors / Oeanes / Canons / Prebendaries / Preistes / Deacons / etc. Al which / properly belong to no other bodie [Page] either [...] or [...] / but onely vnto the Romish Church / wh [...] they were first invented / where they now are / and by whom they were left in this lande / when the head of that body the Pope and some other of his members were cast out by her maiestie / and our soueraigne Lord her noble father. The church of Christ is perfect without them / in al her offices: the ciuil state is absolute without them / for they are ecclesiastical: Heathen idolatrie hath them not / and requireth them not / onely the kingdome of Antichrist can in no wise be whole and entire without them / wherof
they are visible and knowne members. Now if it be not lawful for me / or any other member of Christ / to be subiect vnto the orders and cerimonies of the old law as circumcision / etc. Which sometimes were the Lordes owne blessed ordinances: how can it be but sin vnto vs to be subiect to the constitutions of Antichrist / the maine adversarie of the Lo. Jesus? The Lord hath not deliuered vs from the Yoke of his owne law / that we should be in bondage vnto the inventions and order of Antichristes kingdome and offices.
Belike yow would haue no other offices in the church now in the time of peace and prosperitie / then were in the Apostles dayes vnder persecution?
Ther is great reason we should not: for if the order left by Moses in the church: was not to be altered / to be diminished or added vnto / except it were by special commaundement from the Lord: (1. Chron. 28 / 19.) then may not any man or Angel / but upon the same warrant / adde any thing vnto that holy forme / which the sonne of God left for the ordering of his owne howse: for / as the Apostle saith / Hebr. 3 / 3. he / (Yea and his ordinances) are worthy of more honour then Moses his were. And he that addeth vnto the wordes of this book / that is / to the true order of the church / and pure worship of God conteyned therin / the Lord God wil adde vnto him of the plagues that are written in this book / saith the spirit of God. Reuel. 22 / 19.
Yow allow of M. Luther / I am sure / what office had he?
He was first a moncke / and so a member (by his office) of the kingdome of Antichrist / euen a good while after the Lord had vsed him as a notable instrument to ouerthrow that kingdome / afterward he was vtterly disgraded and depriued of al offices / so that as the spirit of God saith (Reu. 13. 17.) he could neither buy nor sel by vertue of any libertie or freedome that he had within the kingdome of the Beast. And by this meanes in the Lords great favour / he caried not in this regarde any of the Beastes markes / he was not of his name / nor of the number of his name: he denied himself to belong to that kingdome of Satan / and that malignant church vtterly refused him to be any of her body and members. Since his excommunication and degradation by the Romish / church / he nameth himself Ecclesiasten, [Page] in a book of his so [...] / that is a preacher of Christes blessed truth and gospel. Now whither he preached by vertue of a lawful office whervnto he was called in the church of Christ / or whither he taught b [...] vertue of his giftes / and the opportunitie which he had to manifest the truth / hauing neither time nor leisure / nor yet thinking it needful
to consider by what office he did it / I know not: of this I am assured / that he was one of the famous and glorious witnesses of the Lo. Jesus / raised vp to testifie on his behalfe / against the abominations of the kingdome of Antichrist: and I am assured that by his tongue and pen the Lo. appeared glorioussie in the power of his gospel / to the consumption of that man of sin. (2. Thes. 2 / 8.) Of his office I iudge the best / as of a matter vnknowne vnto me / that is / I thinke him to haue had a pastoral office in the church of Wittemberg / whither he had or not / his example is no law for the church to walke by / it is Chr. Jesus alone that we must heare and folow / according to his wil and word must we frame our walking / and if it be an Angel from heauen that wil draw vs to swarue from the same / we dare not giue eare vnto him. Gal. 1. 8. 9.
And what office had yow in powr church / which meet in woods and I know not where?
I haue no office in that pore congregation: and as for our meetinges either in woods or any where els / we haue the example of our sauiour Christ / of his church and servantes in al ages / for our warrant: it is against our willes that we goe into woods / or secret places: as we are not ashamed of the gospel of Christ / so our desire is to professe the same openly / we are ready before men and Angels / to shew and to justifie our meetings and our behauiour in them / desiring earnestly that we may haue peace and queietnes to serue our God euen before al men / that they may be witnesses of our vpright walking towards our God and al the world / especially towards our Prince and countrie. We know that meeting in woods / in taues / in mountaines / etc. is a part of the crosse and basenes of the gospel / wherat it is easy for the natural man to stumble: but we are gladly partakers of this meane estate for the Lords sacred veritie: and the question should not be so much where we meet / as what we doe in our meetings / whither our meetings and doings he warranted by the word or not / and what inforced vs to meet in these places.
We wil speak of yr vnlawful assemblies afterwards: but what caling haue yow to preach / were yow neuer made minister according to the order of this land?
I might / if I had bene willing / haue bene made either Deacon or preist / but I thanke the Lo. I euer disliked those popish orders / and if I had taken them / I would vtterly refuse them / and not stand by them at any hand. I haue taught publickly in the church of Scotland, being thervnto desired earnestly / and called by the order of that church: charge I neuer had any / and therfore I neuer bare office either there or in any other church.
Did not yow preach in these your secret meetings: [Page] what warr it haue yow so to doe / if yow haue no publick office in your church?
Whither I did or not / I doe not tel yow for the present: But this I say / that if the same poore congregation desired to haue the vse of my smal giftes for the instructiō and consolatiō therof I would being thervnto prepared / most willingly bestow my poore talēt to their mutual edification and mine.
And may yow teach in the church publickly / hauing no publick office therin?
I may because I am a member therof / and requested thervnto by the church / and iudged to be indued in some measure with giftes meet for the handling of the Lordes sacred word. The body of Christ / (that is euery particuler congregation of the church) ought to haue the vse of al the giftes that are in any member therof and the member cannot deny vnto the body the vse of those graces wherwith it is furnished / except it wil break the law [...] and order of the body and become vnnatural / vnto the same. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12.
Then euery one that wil may preach the word in your assemblie?
Not so for we hold it merely vnlawful yea tending to the Anabaptistical inversion of al good order in the church / for any mā to intermedle with the Lords holy truth / beyond the boundes of his giftes: or pet for him that is indued with gifts / to preach or teach in the church / except he be desired / and caled thervnto by the body.
But may any preach / that hath not an office in the church so to doe?
Yea that he may / and the word of God bindeth him to preach / whosoever he be that intendeth to become a Pastor or Teacher in the church of Christ / before he take his office vpon him / and bindeth the church to take the trial of his giftes before they giue him his office / least otherwise he should not be meet for it / or at the least / that handes should not be suddenly laid vpon him. 1. Tim. 3 / 10. and 5 / 23.
What office hath he al this while?
No other office then euery member of the body hath / who are bound to haue their seueral operation in the body according to that measure of grace which they deriue from their head the Lo. Jesus / by the power of his spirit working in them / Rom. 12. 3 / 4. The word caleth these by the name of prophets / not such as doe foretel things to come / but those who are furnished with graces meet for the interpretation and applicatiō of the word vnto the edification and comfort of the church / as the Apostle teacheth vs expressely 1. Corint. 14. and therfore mistake not the word prophet or prophesie as though we leaned vnto any inward reuelations or motions / besides the written word.
I know wel ynough what yow meane / and wil not mistake your wordes / for the Scripture vseth them in that sence.
Now it should be no new thing vnto yow / to heare that they may preach who haue no office in the church / seing this is so common a thing in the colleges and vniuersities of this land.
Yea that is in the scholes.
If that exercise / wherof yow and I meane I am sure / be in your confession warantable in the scholes and colleges / it is much more in the church and [Page] [...] the church and assemblies of his saincts should haue the vse and excercise of his holy word / and not that it should be brought to humane scholes whither it neuer came into the Lordes minde to command that euer it should enter. Let the arthes / tongues / and other humane knowledge be taught in scholes and let the holy truth and exercises of religion be dernied from the church of Christ / which the Apostle for this purpose caleth the piller and ground of truth.
Wel thē yow beare no office in this your church / yow wil not tel vs whither euer yow taught amongst them or not / but yow would yow say if they required yow.
True.
But how came it to passe that yow were not mad [...] an officer amongst them?
Surely I was desired to take a charge and to continue with them / but I would not / because it hath bene my purpose alwayes to unploy my smal talēt in my poore countrie of Wales wher I know that the poore people perish for want of knowledge: and this was the onely cause of my coming out of that country wher I was / and might haue stayed privatly al my life / euen because I saw my self bound in conscience to labour for the caling of my poore kinred and country mē / vnto the knowledge of their saluation in Christ / purposing in deed before I had gone thither / to haue offred my self vnto her maiestie or some of their honours / that it might be made knowne vnto her highnes / what I hold in religion / and how cleere I am of those greevous crimes of sedition and disturbing of her maiesties peaceable gouermēt / wherwith I am wrongfully charged.
Why / yow labour to draw her maiesties subiects from their obediēce vnto he lawes / and from this church of Englād / to heare yow and such as yow are / teaching in woods.
Nay I perswade al men vnto the obedience of my Prince and her lawes / onely I disswade al the world from yeelding obedience and submission vnto the ordināces of the kingdome of Antichrist / and would perswade them to be subiect to Christ Jesus and his blessed lawes / and I know this enterprise to be so far from being repugnant vnto her maiesties lawes / as I assure my self that the same is warranted therby. Her maiestie hath graunted in establishing and confirming the great charter of England /
that the church of God vnder her should haue al her rights and liberties inviolable for ever. Let the benefite of this law be graunted vnto me and others of my brethren / and it shalbe found that we haue done nothing but what is warrantable by her lawes.
What? is it meet that subiects should charge their princes to keep covenant with them / and enter to scanne what oathes they haue take for this purpose: where finde yow this warranted vp scripture?
The subiects are in a most lamētable case / if they may not allege their princes lawes for their acti [...]s / yea and shew what their princes haue promised vnto the Lord and [Page] to them / whē the same may be for declaration of their innocencie: and it is the crowne and honour of Princes / to be knowne not onely to hold / but euen to be in couenant with their subiects / that they wil maintaine and preserue them from violence and wrong: nay heathen Princes haue thought themselues honoured / when their meane subiects haue charged them very earnestly with the covenants wherby they were bound vnto their people. The lawes of this land ar so ful this way as no man conversant in them can be ignorāt that our Princes haue preferred the observing of those equal couenāts wherby they are tied vnto their people / before the accomplishing of their owne priuate affections / yea and commandements in some cases. Hence it is that the iudges of this land are bound by law to administer iustice and equitie vnto the poore subiects / notwithstāding that the princes letters be directed to them to the contrary. And as to the law of God al kinges and princes are bound ther by / to be so far from thinking themselues tied by no bands vnto their subiects as they are plainly forbiddē euē to be lifted vp in minde aboue their brethren (Deut. 1 [...]. 20.) for so the word in that place calleth their subiects and servants. The kinges of Judah who had the greatest privileges and prerogatiue both ecclesiastical and ciuil / ouer their people / that euer any kinges or Princes can haue because they were types and figures of that great king of kings the Lo. Jesus: euered into couenāt notwithstanding with their people / euen particulerly / besides the general former law wherby they were bound vnto them. Yea the prophet Jeremie being in no lesse daunger and disgrace with al estates then I and my brethren are at this present / required his soueraigne Lord and king Zedekiah to promise that he would doe him no violēce and wrong nor yet suffer others to doe the same / for telling him the truth of the word / in the thinges wherin the king required / to be resolued at his hā des: the which thing / Zedekiah yeilded vnto / and that by an oath and covenant of the Lord. Jer. 38. 15. 16. Wherby it appeareth / that it is not without great warrant of the word / that princes should enter couenant with their subiects / and that subiectes / should require promise and oath to be kept with them / otherwise wherto serveth the covenant? But alas I enter not to scanne her maiesties oath / I onely tel yow what her lawes alow me and my poore brethren. And I am assured if her maiestie knew the equitie and vprightnes of our cause / we should not receiue this hard measure which we now susteine. We and our cause / are neuer brought before her / but in the odious weeds of Sedition / rebellion / [...]chisme, her sie, etc. and therfore it is no mervaile too see the edge of her sword turned against vs.
Hath not her maiestie by her lawes established these offices and this order that now is in the church of Englād▪
Her lawes haue I graunt / of ouersight / as taking them for the right offices and order which appertaine vnto the church of Christ: the which because we euidently see that they are not / therfore flie we vnto [Page] her former promise and act / wherby she graunteth vs the inioping of al the privileges of the church of Christ.
Why then goe ye about to pul downe Bps?
Alas / far be it from vs / that euer we should entend any such actions: we onely put her maiestie and the state in mind of the wrath of God that is likely to come vpon this land / for the vpholding of many Romish invētions. We labor to saue our owne sowles / and al those that wil be warned by vs / in avoiding al corruptions in religion / and practising the whole wil of our God / as neere as we can. Further then this we haue no caling to goe / and therfore dare not so much as once in thought conceiue of any thing that we should doe in the altering or pulling downe of any thing established by her lawes.
Why then meet yow in woods / and such suspicious and secret places / if yow purpose no insurrection for the pulling downe of Bps?
I haue told yow the reason before: our meetings are for the pure and true worship of God / and ther is not so much as a word or thought of Bps. in our assemblies except it be in praying for them / that the Lord would shew mercy and favour vnto them / which we wish as to our owne sowles. Our meetings are secret / as I told yow / because we cannot without disturbance haue them more open. Our earnest desire and prayer vnto our God and our gouernours is / that we might haue them open / and not be inforced to withdraw our selues from the sight of any creature. Of the Lordes pure worship in the congregation of his people / are we bound to be partakers / and that in woods / in mountaines / in caues etc. as I told yow / rather then not at al.
Then yow are privy vnto no practise or intent of any sedition or commotion against her maiestie and the state / for the pulling downe of Bps?
No I thanke God / nor euer was: and I protest before heauen and earth / that if I were / I would disclose and withstand the same / to the vttermost of mineabilitie in al persons of what religion soeuer they were.
But what meant yow Penry / when yow told me at my howse / that I should liue to see theday / wherin ther should not be a Lo. Bp. left in England?
Yow doe me great iniury Sr. but I am content to beare it. This was it that I said vnto yow / namely that I gainsaid nothing in this whole cause / but what I could proue out of the word of God / to be the remnants of the popish Antichristian kingdome which religion I said / the Lord hath promised vtterly to ouerthrow and consume / in so much as yow
may liue / though yow be already of great yeares
to see al the offices / calings / works and livings / deriued from / or belonging at any time vnto the kingdome of Antichrist / vtterly ouerthrowē in this land: for the Lo. hath promised that that man of sin / that body of the Antichristiā religion / shalbe so consumed by the breath of his mouth and the brightnes of his appearing in the power of his gospel / before his second coming (2. Thes. 2.) as that false synagogue shal haue no power in any [Page] of her officers or partes / either to be lifted vp ouer the [...] of God / viz / ouer any thing that is caled holy / or yet to oppose her self / as a bloody adversarie vnto those truthes and servants of Christ who refuse to be in spiritual bōdage and slauery to her. This I shewed yow to be verified in the type / Babylon of the Chaldeans / according to the word of the Lo. spoken by Isaiah and Jeremiah and the casting of the stone into Euphrates by Sheraiah at Jeremies commandement (Isa. 13. 19. 20. Jer. 50. 40. and 51. 61. 64.) and this I shewed to be decreed by the Lo. of hostes / against the true body / the Antichristian Babel vnder the new testament / for so we are taught by the spirit of God / that she shalbe consumed and be no more / that her chapmen shal in this life bewaile / and the saincts of God reioyce at her vtter ouer throw and at the spoile and decay of her merchandise / Reuelat. 18. The comparing of the act done by Sheraiah against the type / and what followed thervpon / with that of the Angel against the true Babylon / I declared most fully to confirme my speech: for Sheraiah throwing the stone into Euphrates said / thus shal Babel be drowned and rise no more, and so it came to passe: the Angel in the Reuel casting the great stone into the sea / saith / with such violēce shal the great city Babylō be cast, and shalbe found no more: and so it wilbe accomplished I am sure. This was my speech vnto yow Mr. Young / and I beseech yow / yea and charge yow as yow shal answer in that great day / not to misreport my speeches / but to relate them as they are vttered by me.
I conceiued some great matter of your speech I tel yow.
Yow did me the greater wrong therin: I pray yow hereafter to conceiue of my wordes / according to my meaning / and their natural signification.
Yow say that these offices and livings / derived in your conceit from the body of Antichrist / shalbe ouerthrowē by the Lord / we would know how yow meane that this wilbe accomplished?
I haue already shewed yow / that this worke shalbe done by the appearing of Jesus Chr. in the shining brightnes of his gospel / through the efficacie wherof / the Lord shal so lay thē open / as he wil put into the hartes of Princes and states / wher in they are now mainteined / to abolish their offices / calings and works vtterly from among men / and to imploy their livings vnto the holy civil vses of the Princes and states wherin they are. After this sort did the Lord consume the Popes primacie / office and maintenance which he had in this land / and after this maner did he consume by his gospel / the Cardinals / Priors / Abbots / Moncks / Friers and Nunnes out of this lād / and after this or some other way seeming best to his wisedome / shal he
[...]ōsume the rest of that body of miquitie / now remayning where soeuer. The worke I am assured shalbe accomplished / because the Lo. hath said it in his written word: the maner how / or the time when it shalbe performed / I leaue to him who ruleth al thinges according to the counsel of his owne wil / and whose wayes and iudgements [Page] are past finding out.
What yow doe or purpose to doe in these your assemblies we cannot tel: but this is sure / that the Papists seeme to be so incouraged by tijis dealing of yours / that ther were neuer so many of them in this land since her maiesties reigne / as are at this present and they themselues say that your separating from vs a great stombling block vnto them / wherby also they take occasion to doe the like.
What we doe in our meetings / and what our purposes are / I haue told yow simply as in the presence of the Lord / and weare ready by the grace of God to approue our actions and purposes to be in al good conscience both towards the Lord and our Prince / and toward al men: if the number of the idolatrous ignorant Papists be increased / it is no wonderful case / by reason of the smal teaching that the poore people of the land haue: and their increase is in the iust iudgement of God / in that so many remnants of popery are left vnbanished in the land / but specialy because these baits are reteined here wherby the Pope is continualy drawen to send ouer his Jesuits and Seminaries / wherby also they are most easily and willingly induced to come and pervert her maiesties subiects from their obedience vnto the Lord and his leivetenant and to betray their natiue prince and countrie into the hands of aliants and strangers.
What are those baits that yow meane?
I meane the former popish offices and their livings wherof I spake / as the offices and livings of Archb [...]s. Lo. Bps. Deanes / Archdeacons / Cannons / Preists / etc. the continuance wherof / and of the popish corruptions belonging to them / keepeth the Pope and his sworne subiects: in daily hope of replanting the throne of iniquitie againe in this land / wherof I trust in the Lo. that they shalbe vtterly disappointed. The traiterous Jesuits and seminary preists / hoping to possesse these execrable livings and offices againe / are also therby allured readily to become most vnnatural traitors against their natural Prince and countrie / and the Papists at home / are by this meanes kept stil in remembrāce of that Romish Egipt / and in continual expectation of their long desired day: wheras if these offices and livings were once removed
the Pope and his trafiquers would be vtterly void of al hope to set vp the standerd of the man of sin againe in this noble kingdome / here being not so much as an office / or one pēny of maintenance left for any of his members: the Jesuits and preists would haue no allurements to make them rebelles against their Prince / and the other seduced Papists at home / would easily forget their idolatrie / ther being here neither office nor any other monument of that antichristian religion left / to put them in mind of that Babel / and so the Lord would accomplish that which thapostle saith shalbe fulfilled / euen the vtter consuming of the man of sin in this land. (2. Thes. 2.) And therfore the reteining of these offices and livings / are not onely ioyned with the great dishonour of God / and the offence of his [Page] saincts / [...] my [...] of [...] of this noble kingdome / yea and of y e prosperitie and welfare of her maiesties most royal person /
as it is wel knowne by ouer many popish trecheries intended against her. I marvaile not that the papists dislike our separation / and yow may be assured that if they knew what may bring vs into dāger or discredit vs with her Ma tie. with any of our superiors / the honorable and worshipful magistrats vnder her highnes or any els of our countrymē / they wilbe sure to vtter the same though it were in their owne consciences neuer so vntrue. For they know that of al the men vnder heauē / we are the greatest enemies vnto their religion / we leaue the same neither branch nor root / but would haue al the world to be as clere of that spiritual cotagion / as it was the same day wherin the Lo. Jesus went vp on high / and led captiuitie captiue. Their reason of their separation drawen from our example / is like their religion. We dare not ioyne with thassemblies of the land notwithstanding that we know many of the truthes of Jes. Christ to be professed therin / because in the offices and many of the workes remayning in them / we should haue communion with the religion of the Romane Antichrist in many of the workes and inventions therof: they on the other side wil not ioyne with the publick worship of the Land / because therby they should haue ouermuch communion with the doctrine of Christ / and ouer litle with the poisoned inventions ordeined by Satan in the Romish Synagogue / and who moved them to their treason and disobedience / before we took this course. Is theyr reason any thing tolerable / that because we indevour to worship the Lord purely / they should take example therby to giue themselues wholy to the worship of Satan?
But why refuse yow conference / that yow may be reformed in those things wherin yow erre?
I refuse none / I am most willing readily to yeeld vnto any / as Mr. Young hath it to testify vnder my hand: onely my desire and request is / that I may haue some equal conditions graunted vnto me and my poore brethren in it / the which yet if I can not obteine / I am ready to yeeld vnto any conference though never so vnequal / yea I am desirous of any conference that her maiesty and their honours may be truly informed of that which I and my brethren doe hold / and of the warrant that we haue therof from the word of the Lord. Onely I craue that my iudgement / my reasons / my answers may be reported in my owne words / and herof I beseech your worships to beare witnes withme. Lastly I beseech yow to consider / that it is to no purpose that her Maiesties subiectes should bestowe their time in learning / in the study and meditation of the word of God / in the reading of the writings and doinges of the learned men / and [Page] holy martyrs that haue bene in former age / [...] the writings published by her maiesties authoritie: if they may not without dāger professe and hold those truthes which they learne out of them / and that in such sort as they are able to convince al the world that wil stand against them / by no other weapons then by the word of God. Consider also I pray yow / what a lamentable case it is / that we may ioyne with the Romish church in the inventions therof / without al danger / and cannot but with extreme peril be permitted in iudgement and practise to dissent from the same / wher it swarveth from the true way. And as yow finde these considerations to cary some weight with them / so I beseech yow be a meanes vnto her maiestie and their honors / that my case may be weighed in euen ballance. Imprisonments / inditements / yea death it self / are no meet weapons to convince mens consciences. (.˙)