The prisoner against the prelate, or, A dialogue between the common goal [ie. gaol] and Cathedral of Lincoln wherein the true faith and Church of Christ are briefly discovered & vindicated ... / written by a prisoner of the baptised churches in Lincolnshire.

1662

The Prisoner against the Prelate: OR, A DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE Common Goal AND CATHEDRAL OF LINCOLN.

WHEREIN The true Faith and Church of Christ are briefly discovered & vindicated, BY Authority of Scripture, Suffrages of Antiquity, Concessions and Confessions of the Chief Opposers of the same Church and Faith.

Written by a Prisoner of the Baptised Churches in Lincolnshire.

[Page]

O my Dove, that art in the clefts of the Rocks, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comly.

Cant. 2. 4.

I sit as a Queen, and shall see no sorrow.

Rev. 18. 7.

Prisoner. Prelate.

You look too much upon the Walls, &c. the Mountains, Caves and Prisons are more sure places to me.

Bernard.

[Page]

A PROBLEME demonstrated, AND Fixed to the ensuing Dialogue, instead of an Epistle to the Reader.

The PROBLEME.

No Learned English-man can modestly pretend to know the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek Tongues (so far as they only concern the holy Scripture) any whit more in substance or effect, than such us are Ʋnlearned.

The Demonstration.

IS it not the usual refuge of many in our Age to fly to their (particular) skill in the Hebrew and Greek Tongues, as a sufficient defence against such as are not skilled in the literature thereof, when opposed about such things touching Religion, as for which the English Text affords nothing? Yea, it is even deemed enough to silence the Unlearned, when assaying to reason about Religion, to tell them, They are unlearned, [Page] know not the Originals, understand no Greek, &c.

Upon this occasion I have taken this their Plea into consideration, to see whether it be of such weight as is commonly thought. And verily (to the utmost of my understanding) it seems to have nothing of strength in it: for (to say nothing of this vain boast of their knowledge of the Originals of holy Scripture, when yet they never saw them, nor know where to look for them; I say, to let this pass) if we consider diligently wherein the effectual and substantial knowledg of the Hebrew & Greek Text of Scripture lieth, we shall find, that (as touching Englishmen) it lieth not in the knowledge of the Characters or Words of these Tongues (for this a Child of seven years old may know) but that which is the effectuall knowledge of the Hebrew or Greek Tongues to an Englishman, is His knowing the true English of the Hebrew and Greek Characters and Words: For example, these ג ב א α. β. γ. Hebrew and Greek Letters avail an Englishman nothing so long as he can only sound them in the Hebrew and Greek Dialects thus; Aleph, Beth, Gimel, &c. or, Alpha, Beta, Gamma, &c. But that which is the effectual knowledge of these Letters [Page] to an Englishman, is to know that they are of the same signification with the English A. B. G. The like may be said of words; for so long as our English-men can onely sound the Hebrew word El, or the Greek word Theo, it edifieth not the understanding, but when we know these words are the same in signification with our English word [God] this is that understanding of the Hebrew and Greek which to us is truly effectual: for whatsoever sounds our lips pronounce, be they Hebrew, Greek or Latin, our understanding receiveth these several sounds in the English tongue.

This being evident, it now remains to be considered whether it be not possible (as things now stand) for such English-men as know not the Hebrew or Greek Characters and Words, yet for all that to know the most proper and effectual signification of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Old and New Testaments.

That thus it may be, and is, will thus appear; Either the Translations which we have, are the same in substance and effect with the Hebrew and Greek Bible, or they are not. If they be the same, in substance and effect, Then such as know the Scripture, as translated into English, do know [Page] the substance and effect of the Hebrew and Greek Bible. Yea, further; If the learned Translators (whether Cantabrigians and Oxonians, or else the Rhemists) themselves knew the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Bible, Then we who are unlearned do know the same. This must needs be true; or else we must conclude, that they knew the true meaning, and yet delivered a false: but this were a great violation of Charity, to think that they would thus abuse themselves and the whole race of English-men; or expose their Credit to everlasting contempt, and themselves and followers to eternal destruction, and all this wilfully, and only about the signification of Words and Letters, and not about the Doctrine contained therein (for Translation and Exposition are two things:) But this (I say) were a great breach of Charity to think, and must needs argue great pride in any to affirm; and would certainly expose not only such particular Learned-men, who so highly stand upon their Learning, but also whole Conventions of them, to unavoidable suspition, let them give forth never so sincere a Translation; and the rather, because so many eminent for Learning and Industry, have vigorously and unanimously [Page] pressed the Unlearned to adhere to the English Text, as the undoubted Voice of God, speaking by his lively Oracles the Scriptures. Now then, if our English-Translation be indeed the same in substance and effect with the Hebrew & Greek Bibles, at least to the best of the understanding of the Learned Translators; and that their understanding may well be preferred before the understanding of any one learned English-man now living; Then it followeth, that such as know the English-Text, do in substance and effect know the Hebrew and Greek Text, at least so far as may equallize the knowledge of any learned English-man now living; Because that which the Translators DID know, the same for substance We DO know; And that which they attained to through much study, we know without either learning or study, further than to hear or read the Text of Scripture in our Mother-Tongue. For the Translation which they gave forth was (by their own solemn protestation) the utmost, for substance, of their knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Bible: But we have this their Translation, Therefore we have in substance the same knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek Text of [Page] the Bible which the learned Translators had.

This might be further illustrated by the consideration of divers Arts, and obscure Mysteries, which at the first were not found out without great learning and travel; but when once a familiar discovery thereof was made, divers have been expert therein, and that without the help of that learning and study which first brought them forth.

As thus; The Unlearned may defend themselves in the use of Holy Scriptures, when concerned in any Controversie with the Learned about matters of Religion; So also may they defend themselves in using the Works of Greek or Latin Writers, so far as they are found to be translated into the English Tongue. And this may also serve for an Apology for the Quotations alleaged in the ensuing Dialogue, whether from Scriptures or Antient Writers.

If now it should be objected, That many words in holy Writ are left untranslated; and that therefore we must needs depend upon the present Learned for help in such cases, &c.

To this it may well be answered, That there are such Lexicons, Dictionaries and Tables, long ago extant, and yet remaining, as may well suffice the Unlearned for [Page] their attaining to the true etymology of all such words, at least in such sort as may be thought equivolent with what the present Learned are capable to accommodate us with.

Hence it may be perceived that the mode of divers of our present Scholars (under what form of Religion soever) in their contradicting of Translators and Interpretors, which have communicated to us the holy Scriptures, or other Authors, in the English Tongue, is so far from forcing the Unlearned to a necessary reliance upon them in these cases, that in truth it will rather inforce them to a necessary disclaiming them, as not much regarding what they either say or write. For if we have been deceived by all that have formerly pretended to serve their Generations in these weighty and eternal Soul-concerns, We shall have small ground of incouragement to believe that we shall be ingeniously dealt with, by such men, as (to the intent they may bring us under their devised fables and antiscriptural Traditions) do run that desperate adventure to traduce the Scriptures as falsly translated.

[Page] For that diversity which may seem to be among our English Editions of Holy Scripture (which perhaps may thrust it self in Objection-wise in this place) Augustine Aug. De Civ. Dei. lib. 18. cap. 43, 44. hath said well, who adviseth the Reader, not to leave the signification of the History for the circumstance of a word, nor to condemn either of the Authorities.

From the premises I will conclude with the words of the Problem; No Learned English-man can with modesty pretend to know the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek Tongues (so far as they onely concern the Holy Scriptures) any whit more in substance or effect than such as are unlearned.

Tho. Grantham.

[Page 1]

The Authors Expostulation with himself, and his Appeal to God about the Publication of the Ensuing POEMS.

LOrd, have I any other end in what
My purpose is at present to relate,
Than to advance thy Truth, thy Name and Praise,
In these so much divided, dismal dayes?
If so, thou know'st how much I have desired,
These lines ere they came forth, may have expired;
So as t'have found their end, before they had
Their full beginnings in these Poems made.

Or is it for vain fleshly ostentation
That I appear 'gainst the prevarication
Of these our days? Then let my hand forget
Her cunning, once a Pen to draw or set
On Paper; yea Lord, let my Tongue also;
Forget to speak that any it may know,
Till of such evils I convinced be,
And own my faults to all, but more to thee.

For what can it avail the Sons of Men,
To seek applause (by using thus their Pen)
From mortal flesh, if thou Lord, the erst while,
Upon them and their doings dost not smile?

But worm that I am, wherefore do I name,
On this account, mens praises, or their fame
(As they are such) to be to me extended,
For this my work where at they'l be offended.
Partly because no Learning therein shineth,
Partly for that these Poems undermineth.


[Page 2] Those things which they do much more estimate,
Than what I here to them communicate.

Well then, my Muse, look for no commendation,
For this thy work, from this crook'd Generation.
They are prepar'd for those things to requite thee,
As did that Troop which lately came to fright thee.
When they, without producing any power,
Bereav'd thee of thy Fam'ly in an hour;
And drag'd thee up and down from place to place,
Till in the Goal a period took thy race.

Lord sith 'tis thus, advise me what to do;
Shall I speak now? or wilt thou thereunto
Appoint some other; if but so it pleaseth,
Thy self, 'tis that thy servant greatly easeth.
But, O my God, th' hast taught me this to know
That thou on me didst not in vain bestow
Any good gift, so, but to thee I must,
Give an account thereof, for thou art just.
But yet th' hast many, which have spoke and cri'd,
Against those errors which are fortifi'd
With many School-shifts, and with Martial strength,
Whereby their life hath had so large a length,
As that through many Ages they have run,
Though some from thee, to blame them did not shun;
So that, may not I silent sit as well,
As now approach to publish or to tell,
What hath been told by others, and is known
Much more to many, than can here be shown;
If that which those have done may free me from,
The exercise of thy free donation,
I could be well content; but in this Meeter,
I call to mind the word once spoke to Peter,
When Christ to him a service did assign,
He strait look'd back on 
John, that great Divine.


[Page 3] With expectation he should him excuse,
In part of that charge. But stay here my Muse,
Thou must not equalize thy case with theirs,
Yet thou must faithful be in Christ's affairs.
Though thou'rt the Least, yet mayst make thy abode
'Mongst those in 
England that dare speak for God.

But O the times, are they not perilous
To publish Truth in? mind how quarellous
Is this poor Age against such, as would tear
The hood of blind Devotion from their Ear
And Eye, that so the Antient Gospel-pathes
Might extirpate our fears, our jarrs, our wraths.
But oh! speak of this matter, and Sedition
Is charg'd upon us, or a deep suspition
We must lye under; as, if to the Peace,
Some danger by our freedom would increase:
Yea, and our words such heavy things betoken,
As if within our Land they once be spoken,
'Tis strait supposed they cannot well be born,
But 
England will by th' weight thereof be torn.
So thought the High Priest once of 
Amos words,
And cry'd, 
Amos conspired hath by swords;
And so commands the Prophet for his Life
To fly, and so avoid the dismal strife
Which Truth occasioned. Thus be it noted,
That alwayes Truth with Treason hath been spotted.
(I mean by way of calumny) that so
Truths friends might find Authority their foe.
And by this means (alas) what floods of Lives
Have been destroy'd? and yet blest Truth survives.

Yet here I must needs grant, that there hath been
Too much of Tragical deportment seen
In some that have the Truth (pretendedly)
Embraced in its ancient purity.


[Page 4] Yea, I do heartily this day desire
That none that own Gods way may stir that fire
Of war or strife, Which by Gods Providence
From this our Land's but newly driven hence.
At least, I pray, if any have attempted
To stir up war, yet those may be exempted
From punishment, whose hearts are clear therefrom,
And let the guilty only bear their doom.

But O, my Lord, why am I busied here,
Thou knowst from war my heart and hands are clear.
And yet, O Lord, I pray thee, teach me fight
Couragiously, that warfare which thy might
Only can mannage, sith it's war Divine;
And Lord, I thank thee, that thou dost encline
My heart and hand thereto, and hast assisted
My soul therein, since what time I was listed
Within thy Roll; and in this undertaking,
I pray thee ke
 [...]p my hand and mind from shaking.
That so the Truth, with comely boldnesse, I
May practise, preach, write, teach and testifie.
For Lord, if Truth be Truth, and still the same,
In nature, worth and usefulness, then blame
Must be their Lot, who are right bold to speak it
In times of Peace, and afterwards for sake it,
Because the times do turn. O God forbid,
That I should for such cause, let Truth lye hid
In fleshly fears. O God, how great would le
My shame, when I thy glorious face shall see
In that great Day, the Day of final Sentence,
When none their loss regain can by Repentance.
The thoughts whereof, O Lord, doth give me boldness
To speak for Truth, though in a day of coldness;
Wherein the Wa
 [...]ers are not more congeald,
Than mens cold Zeal, hath all thy Laws repeal'd.


[Page 5] For what do they less than repeal thy Law,
Who of poor mortal flesh stand S O in awe,
As they'l not act, nor speak one word for thee,
But as great men do give them liberty?

But Lord I speak of Truth, which all confess
To be more worth than all that men possess:
But thou Lord know'st, how doubtfull in this day
It is become to find that blessed way
Of Truth: for though there's nothing more pretended,
Yet surely there is nothing less befriended.
What one man saith is true, another man
Doth say is false; yea, even such as can
Skill all the Sciences and Liberal Arts,
Are so divided into sects and parts,
That there's no end of their most hot Divisions;
Yea such the multitude of their Confusions,
As thou Lord know'st, cannot be lightly number'd,
And herewith 
Europe hath been greatly cumber'd.

What then shall I poor dust now signifie
In Truth's behalf? will any think that I
Have found this Pearl, or can assign the Field,
(Or Church) which doth this precious Treasure yeeld?
Well, whether I have found that Church or no,
Let him that readeth judge: But this I'll do,
I'll shew the Church I've found, even the Truth,
Which I have fallen in love with from my youth.
That so, if I be right, another may
By this means get some help into the way
Of blessed Truth: Or else if I be wrong, (throng)
Some one that's right, may break forth (through the
And she
 [...] me that Old Way, where Rest and Peace
May be obtain'd, that my own wayes may cease.

For is not this that which poor soules desire,
Where is the good Old Way? (others enquire)


[Page 6] Where's blessed 
Sion? Mother of the Saints!
Yea, for a sight of her, some hearts now faints:
Yea thou, my soul, remember canst the Dayes,
The Weeks, the Months, the Years, and dolful wayes
Wherein thou Pilgrim-like, didst mournful walk,
And in thy Solitudes, wouldst often talk
With thy Creator, by Pray'rs, Vows, and Tears,
That if he would but free thee of thy fears,
(Which these crook'd wayes did minister to thee)
And of his Sion once but make thee free,
To set thy feet upon that holy Hill,
Then wouldst thou wholly yeeld up to his Will;
To be, to do, to suffer Gods good pleasure,
If he thereto would fill thee with his treasur
 [...].
And now, my soul, what i'st wherein thy Lord
Hath failed of in making good his Word,
In setting thy bound feet free from the band
Of miry paths, and in his blessed Land,
(His dearest Church) hath given thee a Station,
A dwelling place, in his beloved Nation?
Yea, thou a name, and a rememberance
Hast there obtain'd, with an Inheritance
So rich, so full, so ample every way,
That what it is, no words can fully say.

Now then, my soul, see thou perform thy Vows,
Lest thy Engagements prove but empty Shows.
What Truth thou knowst, the same communicate,
That others may thereof participate.
Remember how the Labours of the Saints,
In former times, did much supply thy wants,
And so do still: yea, some the Seed-time knew,
And thou camst but to reap their Harvest true,
Yet thou a Seed-time, with respect to those,
That are to follow, must perhaps disclose.


[Page 7] Or at the least (my Muse) bring forth thy gains
Which thou achieved hast by others pains:
That so the Sower, and the Reaper may,
Rejoyce in mutual profiting that day;
Which shall in Praises to our Lord be spended,
And yet nor Day nor Praises shall be ended.

But now my Pen, stay here, and let us muse
Upon the subject which thou must peruse,
Use seriousness, for they are Divine things,
(For the most part) whereof thy Muse thus sings.
Gods precious Statutes are the chiefest Objects:
Implore his ayd in handling so great Projects,
To clear his Laws, wherein men do abuse them,
And to declare how rightly they should use them.
Again, there's many things which thou here blam'st,
Speak of them seriously, when thou them nam'st;
For some do deem as highly of those doings,
As of th' Apostles Precepts, Walks, or Goings;
Yea, some are ma
 [...]ked so, they think those wayes
Had their beginning in th' Apostles dayes;
(As Pedorantisme, and other things,
Which their procedure had from humane springs.)

And whereas thy most weighty subject is
About the Church, that heavenly place of Bliss,
Deal clearly in this point, for that indeed
In this one Question lies both Fruit and Seed.
Defend her in thy place, she'l thee defend,
Yea God will him protect that is her Friend.
Dispute for Truth, then will the Truth approve thee:
See to thy charge, my Muse, it doth behove thee.
Bear in thy mind the dayes wherein thy thought
Was no way's like to that which I am taught,
More by Tradition (humane) than by those
Instructions which the Scriptures do disclose.


[Page 8] This if thou do'st remember, it may serve
To lay thee low, and in thy self preserve,
A due respect to those that do not see,
The errour of their way. But if there be
Any that do malitiously oppose,
The Truth, see thou give them the sharper blows.
Fear not my Muse, if Truth be on thy side,
(As he which fanned 
Babel, well hath cry'd,
That Truth is strongest) by it thou wilt be
Made Victor unto all Eternity.

My Muse, sith thou a Prisoner art this day,
Because thou canst not walk in th' 
Minsters way,
Now therefore go thee forth in form of 
Jayle,
To Dispute with the 
Minster do not fail.
If she sound Reason with the Truth produce,
I do conjure thee, make with her a Truce.
But if of these thou destitute dost find her,
Then freely of her fallacies remind her:
And if she mind thee not, appeal to him
Whom she pretends to serve, and so come in
To Goal again, till Liberty from Heaven,
Thee further to confer with her be given.

[Page 9]

An Introduction, shewing the occasion of the Dialogue Ensuing.

UPon a time, I had in me a mo
 [...]ion,
To take some cognizance of that Devotion,
Which in Old 
Lincoln's great Cathederal
Is used in the way Prelatical;
Which, I confess, did outwardly appear
Right glorious, for to please both Eye and Ear.
But when I call'd to mind the greatest end,
Of Divine Worship, which is to amend
Mans pravity, by good edification,
I found that Worship, a meer desolation.

One thing to me prodigious did appear
Above the rest, 'twas two men which did wear,
Great Linnen Coats, and one had on his back
A Red Cloath ty'd, as some men tye their Pack.
These did themselves divide from all the rest,
And walked Eastward, bowing down their brest
At certain places, and obedience yeelded,
Ʋnto a cover'd Board which there was builded,
Where on a Cushon each man kneeled down,
And when their Arms, on other two were thrown
They seem'd to pray, having their eyes cast down
Upon two Printed Books: where having shown
Their skill in Reading, he on th'right hand rose,
And turning West, he did his Book unclose,
And therein read a Chapter, which 
Paul wrote
In th'second of the 
Corinths, which I quote 
2 
Cor. 3.
The rather, for because, methinks it might
Have given these two Readers much more Light


[Page 10] Than to have worship'd Wood or Cloth utensels,
Or ty'd themselves in Pray'rs to what mens pen­sels
Had measur'd out. This read, some other things
They also read, and then a Black man brings
Them off their stage, bearing a silver Mace
Before these white men, to their former place.

Now when these Obsequies and Postulations
Were finished, then many made Orations
Around the Quire: but what was said or sung,
If I should say I know, I should but wrong
My self and them; for there was such confusion
Of Voices, that wer't Truth, or wer't Delusion;
Nor hurt nor profit, did thereof ensue
To me, sith what they said I no whit knew,
Yet these strang sights do cause me stil to wonder
Why Prelates do against the Papists thunder,
So much, because of Image-adoration:
For if that Wood or Stone, built in the fashion
Of Tables, may adored be by Saints,
What lets the same, when some like Men it prints
Especially, if Christ his form it beareth,
As reverend as a Table it appeareth.
Now having these mens doings thus far viewed,
I left them all within their stalls impued.

And having heard that some in Prison lay,
Because they could not close with that fine way
of Worship, I therefore anon repaired
To see how these distressed persons fared;
And being come unto their lodging place,
I found the Prisoners, with erected face
To Heaven, with their knees prostrate before
The mighty God, whom they did there adore
With Pray'r and Praises (which I understood)
And so far fervent, that I gain'd some good


[Page 11] By this Devotion; for my cogitations
Provoked were to heav'nly meditations,
And Christian conference with those distressed,
About the end reserv'd for all the Blessed.
These things I thought upon when home returned,
And in the sence thereof I partly mourned,
And partly did rejoyce; I also thought
How these things might into some form be brought,
For others and my own edification,
In Truth to stand, and to have Preservation,
Somewhat by this means, from the several snares,
Which do or may lye hid in Forms of Pray'rs.
And sith the 
Prison and the 
Minster were
The places wherein I these Prayers did hear,
I therefore have the Conference compiled
Between these two. And now to be reviled
For this my work, it is my expectation,
From all such persons as in this our Nation
Are preresolv'd to follow Mans Invention:
But hap as'twill, that shall be no prevention
To me from speaking Truth, and more than that,
To speak, if I do know't, my soul doth hate.
But now of time I'll make no more expence,
But let the Goal begin the Conference.

[Page 12]

The CONFERENCE.

CHAP. I.The Argument.

About Antiquity

The Jayle 
doth first Dispute,

The Minster 
makes Repply;

The Jayle 
doth her Confute.
Jayle.
I Greet thee well thou great Cathederal,
Now shining in thy Form Prelatical,
Whilst others lye within my Cells, because
They can't conform to thy Prelatick Laws;
Whose case yet seemeth just and good to me,
Although, 'tis true, they do dissent from thee.
Cathedral.
Is this a Jayle-like-greeting? what's the cause
Thou thus declin'st thy work, to take a pause
About Religion? and I further strange,
To hear the Jayle once intimate a Change
'Twixt her and me, who wont with one consent
All talk that's too religious to prevent.
Jayle.
'Tis I, even I, thy old deluded Friend,
Which us'd to keep in hold whom thou didst send,
Without a due inquiry of their c
 [...]use;
And now behold, such as do keep God's Laws
Thou hast again committed unto me,
And let'st the breakers of his Law go free.
Cathederal.

[Page 13]Fy, my Old Friend, It grieves me thus to hear
Thee side with those, who do against me bear
So great an opposition, that if they
Should freely speak, perhaps my glorious way
Might get a blot; now therefore I advise thee
Be gon, lest I for this attempt chastise thee.
Jayle.
Perswade me not, for I'm concern'd to know
The Truth from Falshood, full as much as thou.
Now therefore give me leave with thee to reason
About Religion, whil'st we have a season
Wherein to do it; for the day's at hand
We must give an account how here we stand.
Cathederal.
Thou reason 'bout Religion! When didst thou
Take thy degrees, the Liberal Arts to know?
Thou art prophane, and I a Holy Place,
Nor can I with thee reason 'thout disgrace.
Sith therefore thus I may my self abuse,
I think it best thy offer to refuse.
Jayle.
Religion is not ty'd to Humane Learning,
For this is plain to all men of discerning,
That God hath chose the foolish, and the poor
Of this world, rich in Faith. Yea furthermore,
It seem'd well-pleasing to the Lord, that Babes
Should see true Light, whilest th'wise lie in dark shades.
Cathederal.
'Tis true the Scripture speaks of such a thing,
When first the Gospel-Light began to spring,
But since that time 'tis said, th'unlearned do
The Scriptures wrest unto their overthrow:
And this (O 
Jayle) is like to be thy fate,
Unless thou keep thee to thy former state.
Jayle.

[Page 14]Th'unlearned and th'unstable ones, which do
The Scriptures wrest unto their overthrow,
Are Learned 
Jews, and famous 
Athens Scholars,
And not the poor, who are our Saviours followers.
Th'first Churches were unlearned, yet had skiil
In holy Writ, to know Gods holy Will.
Cathederal.
My other reason may suffice (though this
Should fail) the Disputation to dismiss:
Defile not then my place by thy intrusion,
Nor think thou here to vent thy new Delusion:
for each must know their place and keep the same
Or else receive their due deserved blame.
Jayle.
I do presume no holiness can be
A good pretence this Conference to flee,
Nor yet can I thy place more holy deem,
Than other places, this, though strange it seem,
I can prove true, for in the Gospel day,
Distinctions of this kind are done away.
Cathederal.
It seems then I no holier am then thou
In thy conceit, but Scripture doth us show,
There's holy ground, as well as ground prophane,
Place where God will be worship'd, and again
Place where he will no Sacrifice accept,
But th'Off'rer and th'Oblation both reject.
Jayle.
The Scripture shews that such esteem there WAS
Of Place, but shews that such esteem should pass
Away from Christians; wherefore, I say,
Thy Ground or Place no holier is this day,
Than other places; wherefore every where
Men may with holy hearts in prayer appear.
Cathederal.

[Page 15]My Place must needs be holy; for this cause
It builded was, therein to teach Gods Laws.
It consecrated was also by those
Whom God to minister his Word there chose,
So was not every place: then thou dost ill,
Thus to compare thy Place with this my Hill.
Jayle.
Were all this proved (which thou never can)
Yet mine's as holy, seeing such a man
As Christ, hath sanctifi'd each place so far
As therein he'll accept of holy Prayer.
And 
Paul i'th Jayle; at Midnight sang an Hymn,
Such as few singers ever sang in thine.
Cathederal.
Well, I perceive, I must with thee engage
In a Religious contest, ere this Age
Doth terminate: Then let us now propose
The Point to be Disputed, and then close
In Argument. The Question then shall he

About the Church, Whether't be 
Me or 
Th
 [...]e?
Jayle.
No 
Question like to this, the 
Church once found,
Will for our finding all Truth, prove a Ground
So clear, that we no Truth shall need to know,
But she will strait be ready it to show.
Then fit thy self thy Church for to maintain,
For that's the thing I question (to be plain.)
Cathederal.
Dost question that? then that will I defend
Against thy Opposition: Now descend
To some particularities, that we
The reason of thy doubt may fully see,
And fairely Answer. Then let's see the ground
Thou hast to prove thy Church and Doctrine sound?)
Jayle.

[Page 16]Well then, the first place where I shall detect thee
For no 
true Church (now let who can protect thee) 
First Argum. from An­tiquity.
Is thy Minority, or want of Age,
To be esteemed for that Matron sage,
Espous'd to Christ 'bove sixteen hundred years
Ago, whilst thou as yesterday appears.
Cathederal.
Blis me! Did ever any creature know
A Jayl that had a more unshamefac'd brow,
Than thou in this? What, do not I well know ye
To be of 
Leidens breed, of 
Munster, trow ye?
For shame leave talking of Antiquity,
Thou art in no respect so old as I.
Jayle.
Alas I see thou knowst me not i'th least 

See the London Apology, 
Printed in the Year, 1648.
Whilst thou deriv'st my line from that mad beast
Of 
Munster, 'gainst whose pranks I did protest,
Even in those dayes as 
Cassander hath prest
Me forth in Print, and sith he doth acquit me.
Thy Callumny in this case cannot hit me.
Cathederal.
What? wilt deny thy Father? do not each
My Pulpits sound thee forth when there I preach,
For such an Upstart? Yea, my Doctors all
There shew thy Radix, this their Volumns shall
Attest, yea th'Papists, whom thou sayst acquit thee
Say 
Munster, as thy Patriarch, befits thee.
Jayle.
Thy Doctors and the Papists sometimes say,
I am no older than that 
Germans fray,
Yet otherwhile they both confess I came,
Down from th'Apostls times; now then for shame
Insist not on their witness, which appears
In its Concordance, like two Dogs by th'ears.
Cathederal.

[Page 17]Sure thou dost wrong both Papists and my Men,
Beware how thou dost thus imploy thy Pen;
For if thou shew not from sufficient ground,
Where they themselvs, in this case thus confound,
I will requite thee as a false accuser,
And of these reverend Clerks a great abuser.
Jayle.
First, 
Willet, in's 
Synopsis Papismi,
Opposing Papists 'bout Antiquity,
Observes that 
Bernard names some Sectaries
(Who Pedobaptisme did much despise)
They'r call'd Apostolicks, because 'tis thought
From th'Postles times these Sectaries came out.
Cathederal.
I find that 
Willet speaks to this effect,
But those bore not the name of thy proud Sect:
Men may deny to baptize Infants, so
They may deny Believers Baptism too;
So then, this Instance thee no way assists
Ʋnless these men were prov'd 
Anabaptists.
Jayle.
The Papists in their Book of Motives, say,
Th'Apostolicks were such as at this day,
Are called 
Anabaptists, yea, that name,
They do expresly give them; and the same,
Thy old Friend 
Marbeck gives to some in 
Rome,
In 
Anno Dom. One hundred fifty one.
Cathedral.
I read these Books, and must confess I find
These things are so▪ What then? Thou art behind
Some which do boast of their Antiq
 [...]ity
From such like proves, to wit, the Papacy.
But yet all this cannot evince the truth
Of their Church-state, nor yet of thine, forfooth.
Jayle.

[Page 18]If I no better Plea in this respect,
Can shew, than th'Papists, thou shalt me reject,
As one that's noval; but at present I
Am not engag'd for my Antiquity:
'Tis thou, O 
Minster, which must now engage
To prove thy self Christs Church in point of age.
Cathederal.
Come on: I reason thus from 
Featly's mouth, 

Featly, against 
Fisher.

That Church is of full age, whose Doctrine's Truth,

Perpetual, unchanged; and I say,
Such is my Doctrine; wherefore now I may
Conclude with him, that thus my Church is true.
Thy Answer now bring forth to open view.
Jayle.
I do deny thy 
Minor, and I say,
Thy Doctrine, which gives enterance to thy way
Of Church-ship, is not true, nor yet so old,
As in the Scriptures to be found enrol'd.
For thou without Christs Soul-converting Word,
Thy Church with carnal members hast bestor'd.
Cathederal.
'Tis true, my Members 
now are wholly such,
When I receive them, as no word can touch
In order to Conversion, yet I say,
The holy Scripture will evince my way.
Was not our Father 
Abra'm and his Seed
Brought into one Church-state? search now and read.
Jayle.
I search, and find, That unto every Nation,
To every Creature, good news of Salvation:
For Faith and for Repentance must be taught,
Before into Christs Church they can be brought;
Contrary-wise, 'tis clear, that 
Abr'ams Seed,
Had no such Obligation, that we read.
Cathederal.

[Page 19]The Parents do believe, and so the Child;
For 
Abra'ms Seed in Holy Writ are stil'd
Gods Covenant, which 
Abram, is the same
That's made with us; now therefore here again
See how thou err'st, making Parental-Faith
So needful to let in to th'Churches Path.
Jayle.
The Scripture shews most plain, that 
Abrams Seed
In Gospel-times, are such as own his Creed.
Also the Scriptures quite dissolve that Plea, 

Mat. 3.
Of Parent-interest in a Gospel-day.
The 
Jews are 
Abrams Seed, and yet 'tis plain,
That makes them not in's Covenant remain.
Cathederal.
I tell thee, Christian-Infants are as free
To Gospel-Priviledges, as we see
The Children of the 
Jewes were in their time
To Legal Rites; thus doth my Doctrine shine
And is most Antient, being not deny'd
Till such as thou oppos'd it in your pride.
Jayle.
I know thy Conscience tells thee, there is need 
See the Vulgar Catechis­me in the Common-Prayer-Book.
Of FAITH, to give admittance to the Seed
Of Christians unto Gospel-Sacraments;
For, of thy Doctrine, these are the Contents,

That Faith and true Repentance are expected

Of all, ere they to Bapti'm are elected.
Cathederal.
'Tis true, I say, 
Faith and 
Repentance are
Requir'd of 
All, as needful to prepare
Them unto Baptisme; but then you know,
Sith Infants cannot do this, I allow
Them Sureties, who for them do then Believe,
And eke Repent, before I them receive.
Jayle.

[Page 20]Well, now you grant 
Repentance joyn'd with 
Faith,
Must be 
before any Admittance hath
Into the Church. TO THIS I DO AGREE:
So that the 
Difference 'twixt th
 [...]e and me
Is this; thou cal'st 
Grown Persons to Repent,
And then Baptisest a poor 
Viz. 
A Sucking-Child.
Innocent.
Cathederal.
Though this I hold, 'tis not a Noval thing:
For proof of this Authorities I'll bring
From Antient times, which are irrefragable,
At least they'r such, as thou canst not disable.
The Wisdom of the Church did Infants give
This Priviledge, that they for aye might live.
Jayle.
This Doctrine is too new to be esteem'd,
True or Perpetual, though by you deem'd
Of such great worth; Reduce this false account,
For it to more than nought, will ne're amount.
O 
Rotten Church, not 
now one member's known
When he's Unchurch'd to have Faith of his own.
Cathederal.
Thou lay'st so great a stress on this one Point,
As if 'twould prove each member out of Joynt:
What must my Doctrine stand or fall, as here
I Vanquished or Victor do appear?
Sure though this ground I yeeld, I never shall
To ruine in my Church or Doctrine fall.
Jayle.
Well, yeeld this ground, & then thou hast no fai
 [...]h
When th'art enchurched so, thou maist be grath.
Thou art foundationsess, therefore must fall:
For what's anothers Faith? a rotten Wall
For thee to lean upon; wherefore I say,
This false Prop gon, thy Church soon fades away.
Cathederal.

[Page 21]That Doctrine which I preach for a Foundation,
Is Christ as Crucifi'd for mans Salvation,
There is no Name nor Thing, whereon I found
My Church, save this, wherefore my Root issound.
'Tis neither Baptisme, nor yet Sureties,
Which a Foundation-place for me supplies.
Jayle.
Alas! what's all this Talk, if without Faith?
Which I have shew'd, none of thy Members hath
At their Admission, nor for many Years,
The least 
lota of true Faith appears?
This is thy State, O 
Minster, at the best,
Anothers not thy own Faith which thou hast.
Cathederal.
I told thee, I can prove what here I hold,
To be the same the Church receiv'd of old,
As that's my Task; and were my Study here,
I'de shew this Custom, 'bove One thousand year
The Church hath used, wherefore 'tis no new
Devised Fable, but a Point most true.
Jayle.
No Study can accommodate thee so,
As to prove 
Sponsers Faith, the Means which do
Give any entrance (in a Scripture way)
Into Christs Church, wherefore I boldly say,
'Tis a meer Novalty, and did arise
When darkness came by means of Heresies.
Cathederal.
I see thou standst upon Antiquity,
Only as Scripture doth it amplify;
From whence, I must confess an Evidence,
Cannot, 
in terminis, be fetched thence.
But let us hear, what further thou canst say,
Against the use of 
Sponsers Faith, this day.
Jayle.

[Page 22]I note this further (as a consequence)
Of what thou'st said, me thinks it follows thence
That Infants must sit down at Christ his Table,
If others Faith to Baptism them enable.
For can the Church in this their wants supply,
And not in that? This soundeth monstrously.
Cathederal.
The Case is not alike; for God requires,
A Self-examination, and desires
Men should the Body of our Lord discern,
When they approach that holy Rite to learn,
That so they may not drink their Condemnation
In that which is ordain'd for Consolation.
Jayle.
'Tis true, God call for this, then pray thee why,
Canst thou not learn, these Reasons to apply
To holy Baptisme, in which our Lord
More Frequently requires Faith in his Word,
With true Repentance; thus these Cases are
Alike made manifest, and so appear.
Cathederal.
The Churches Judgment doth the one allow,
And not the other, unto Infants. Now
Either the Church or thou, O 
Jayle, must be
Deceived: but canst thou more clearly see,
Than she, who hath the eye of Learning bright?
Sure no; then cease against the Church to fight.
Jayle.
How like to 
Rome is this thy Argument?
Dost thou not know, that this same Sacrament
Was also given to Infants, in Old time?
Sure there's as plain a ground for this, as thine
Alleag'd for Infant-Baptism; hence 'tis clear,
As th'one, so th'other thou should'st quite forbear.
Cathederal.

[Page 23]I know that 
Rome this Argument doth bring
To force us, when the Text saith no such thing;
And sure the Churches Judgment will out-weigh
The private Judgement of such as inveigh
Against her doings, and I'll hold me here,
Until a means of greater strength appear.
Jayle.
Admit the Sentence of the Church be great,
In things most doubtful; yet I must entreat
Thee not to use it, till thou'st proved plain,
Thy self to be that Church. Yet here again
I needs must tell thee, That the Doctors all,
Engag'd 'gainst 
Rome, about thine ears do fall.
Cathederal.
Some of my Doctors sang a Strain too high,
When in this Point engag'd 'gainst Popery.
I likewise grant before this Plea be mine,
I must, as a true Church, conspicuous shine.
Which I shall do ere this Discourse have end;
Then to the next 
Objection let's descend.

CHAP. II.The Arg.

'Gainst Nations by the Lump,

For Churches being made

The Jayle 
Disputes; the Minster 
strives

T'uphold that golden Trade.
Jayle.
MY next 
Objection, O 
Cathederal,
Is this. 
Christ hath no Church that's National:
But Nationall thy Church is known to be,

Ergo, Not Christ's Church, but a Pedigree
Of Persons, yet unfit for Church-Communion,
Though thou with them, and they with thee have Union.)
Cathederal.

[Page 24]Fond 
Jayle, didst never read what 
David said,
In 
Psalm the second, were description's made
Of Christ his Church, to have her propagation,
Amongst the Gentiles, to their utmost Nations:
And when the Kingdom was tane from the 
Jewes,
'Twas given unto a Nation, Scripture shews.
Jayle.

Peter doth well expound the second 
Psalm,
In 
Acts the tenth, when sent with Gospel-Balm
Unto 
Cesaria, where Gods acceptation,
Extends to such, 
as fear him in each Nation.
Acts 10. 36, 37.
In 
Peters time, no Church was 
National,
Yet, 
Holy Nation, Peter doth her call.
Cathederal.
So then, it seems the Church is National
But by a Figure Metaphorical,
Consisting but of such, as joyntly hold
A Union in those Laws, which are enrol'd
In Divine Writ, as touching Church-affairs;
I like not this, for it my Pomp impairs.
Jayle.
Christ saith, The Gospel would Divisions cause,
Such as were not occasion'd by the Laws
Of 
Moses; for, in Families there should,

Two this, 
three that; 
three this, and 
two that hold.
But if Christs Church for Constitution be,
Like 
Moses Church, what need they disagree.
Cathederal.
It seems my Union thou approvest not,
This savours of Sedition, or some Plot.
The Land shall never quiet be, untel
Rulers, by their Edicts, all sorts compel
To Uniformity, in things Religious;
And therefore thy Opinion is Prodigious.
Jayl.

[Page 25]Rulers, by Edicts, Uniformity
May well require in things transitory:
But Rulers, as they'r such, in things divine
Ought not t'compel men in the Gospel-time.
Rulers may miss the Truth, which if they do,
Destruction unto their Commands is due.
Cathedral.
Until the Rulers did by force compel
All to the Church which under them did dwell,
The Church was thin, & maintenance was scant,
But since they nourish't her she feels no want.
Her Honour's great, her Members like the sands,
As well in this as many other Lands.
Jayl.
I do confess of Christians nominal
The world abounds by th'Church that's National;
But it's most plain thy Church no semblance hath
With those that walked in th'Apostles path;
Whose Honour lay not in the outward State,
But with true Grace their Souls were eonsolate.
Cathedral.
Come, tell not me of th'Apostles days; for then

Christs Church was small, & of the meanest men:
But when the Nobler sort possession took
Of 
Christianity, the Church forsook
Her subterranean places, and her Head
Did lift up, as one risen from the dead.
Jayl.
The 
Churches outward glory doth not prove
That she from death to life doth nearer move,
But may as soon portend her 
Vacuation
Of Grace, as 
John hints in his 
Revelation.
Rev. 3. 17
And for the 
Nobler sort, it seems this day
They'r too great strangers to the Gospel-way.
Cathedral.

[Page]How canst thou say this? dost not daily see,
With one consent they do resort to me?
Yea, they unto the 
Church are so united,
As that with none like her they are delighted;
And by their strength the 
Church is now protected
And her Opposers unto her subjected.
Jayl.
The 
Church doth not subject by worldly powers 
2. 
Cor. 5. 19, 20.
Her Opposites. Nor is this plea of yours
A better plea for you than 'tis for 
Rome,
To whom the Nobler sort more freely come:
Yea, Nations, Kinreds, Peoples, to the Whore 

Rev. 18. 3
Of 
Babylon resort, her to adore.
Cathedral.
The Prophets do presage that Nations shall
Flow to the 
Church, and bring their Glory all
Into the 
Church, the 
New-Jerusalem.
And this my Doctors do expound of them,
Who now by Kingly Power their Subjects bring
Into my 
Church, my divine songs to sing.
Jayl.
Thou know'st right well the 
Papists do the same,
Their present pomp and glory to maintain:
But you are both deceived, for 'tis clear,
Before that blessed joyful day appear,
The 
Jews (a People chiefly there concern'd)
In 
Can'ans Land must once more be confirm'd.
Cathedral.
If this be true, I must confess I h've err'd,
When to my present state I have referr'd
These Prophecies: But thus much I perceive,
A State that's National thou dost believe
The 
Church may yet enjoy, although it be
When 
Isr'el their desired Land shall see.
Jayl.

[Page 27]This weighty case I will not undertake
Here to dispute; but this is what I spake:
I say, the Prophets mainly have an eye
In these Presages, to the 
Jews. Then why
Shouldst thou imagine this thy present glory
To be the subject of the Prophets story.
Cathedral.
Well, we will leave unto consideration
What hath been said of that Prophetick Nation,
Wherein the 
Jews (I must acknowledge here)
Are often mentioned, as may appear
By reading of the places. Now let's see
What thou hast further, which must answered be.
Jayl.
Thy bringing Nations by the lump into
The Name of 
Christian Churches, plainly do
Destroy the use of Preaching, to convert
The sons of men; and makes their carnal heart
Believe they'r 
Christians from the womb, and so
Their souls deceive, unto their overthrow.
Cathedral.
What though by preaching I do not convert
My Members, yet I have another Art
Them to renew; for this my Book doth say,
When any I receive into my way,

They are regenerate, and born anew:
See therefore how thy charge is found untrue.
Jayl.
I know thy Book doth say't, but tis not true:
For 
Christs Book tells us, 
all that's born anew
Are like the Wind, which in such sort doth blow
J
 [...]h. 3. 8.

As others by their hearing it may know.
Again, 'tis said, 
the World they overcome.
Of all which signs thy 
Converts can shew none.
Cathedral.

[Page]I grant where true Conversion is, there's ceasing
From 
fleshly sins; There's likewise some increasing
In 
holy life: And truly in these cases
My 
Infant Converts claim no real places
'Mongst 
Scripture Converts: But (I say) unless
They 
Converts be, they have no 
Blessedness.
Jayl.
God doth not gather where he hath not strewed▪
But from the Word it never can be shewed
Where Infants are required to convert;
Nor yet canst thou, with thy most subtil Art,
Discov'ry make 'twixt Infants eight dayes old,
To say, 
This is renew'd, That under sin is sold.
Cathedral.
I must confess such a discovery
Doth pass my art: for Babes in Infancy
Do not demonstrate whereby we may know
Which have the Spirit, or whether or no
Any whom I baptize have yet receiv'd it;
But as I have been taught I have believ'd it.
Jayl.
Thou said (even now) 
Infants no Blessedness

Can have, unless they converts be. To this
I answer; As old 
Adams sin involves them
('Thout their consent) in death, So 
Christ absolve
 [...] them
('Thout their concurrence) for 
Paul doth profess
The Grace by 
Christ exceedeth 
Adams loss.
Cathedral.
So then this is thy judgment, I perceive,
That look how 
Adam Infants did bereave
('Thout their committing sin) of happiness;
So 
Christ ('thout their obedience) shal them bless▪
I hold the contrary to this: but now
Some other Argument I pray thee show.

[Page 29]

CHAP. III.The Arg.

The Minister 
Papal Rome 
disclaims;

The Jayle 
from thence doth shew

Her own Prelatick state she mains,

If not unchurch her too.
Jayl.
IN this great Question, 
Where the Church must be
It may do well thy 
radix for to see.
The more I look, the more I see thee come
In thy Church-state but from great Papal 
Rome.
From whence I argue, If 
Rome have no Church,
Then thou wilt scarce be found to have a Porch.
Cathedral.
Presumptuous 
Jayl! my Chronicles do shew
I cast off 
Rome, and all her Popish crew;
Yea, of their Bones a fire I have made:
And she sometimes with same coyn hath me paid.
Which clearly shews I have her quite disserted,
As an old Harlot, from all Truth diverted.
Jayl.
Thou cast off 
Rome thou saist, but thou hast nei­ther
Baptisme nor Church-power, but what either
Thou brought from thence; this 
Rome thee boldly tels
And thou canst find no answer which refels
This their Objection. So 'tis evident,
Unless 
Rome be a Church, thy Church is spent.
Cathedral.
What though their Baptism I do valid deem?
What though their Ordination I esteem?
Must it needs follow 
Rome is 
Christ his Spouse,
Or else the title of 
Christs Church I loose?
This is 
Jayl-Logick, and to Jayl must go,
Or else the reason I'm resolv'd to know.
Jayl.

[Page 30]It follows clearly, and I marvel why
Any wise-man can 
Rome the name deny
Of 
Church; if they true Baptisme and Power,
In Church-concerns, retain unto this hour.
If these Essentials be truly there,
For lesser faults tis hard the Church to tear.
Cathedral.
O but she's full of faults, and those most great,
For by unwritten things she doth defeat
Poor souls of Gods most holy Ordinances,
VVhich Saints have counted rich Inheritances.
My Doctors shew how much I do detect her
Of this Abuse, and therefore do reject her.
Jayle.
Unwritten things! Thou canst not without shame
Blame her in this, because thou dost the same.
For wher's thy 
Common Pray'r-Book or thy 
Crossings
Found in the 
Scripture, more than 
Popish-Massings?
Were not thy 
Organ Pipes and 
Antick Dressings
Found in one Chapter, with the 
Popes Confessings?
Cathederal.
Well, but they worship Images, which I
Reject, as being gross Idolatry:
Indeed it is unsufferable folly
For men to count a carved Post for holy,
And then to bow before what their own hands
Have made, contrary to our Lords Commands.
Jayle.
Alas, thou'rt every whit as far amiss,
For I have seen thee do as much as this:
What means thy frequent bowing to that Board
In this thy Quire? How canst thou think our Lord
Will 'low thee this, and not allow them that?
Sith all's but Wood, by you set up in State.
Cathederal.

[Page 31]'Tis true, I bow to th'Altar, but what tho?
I do not worship it, as these men do
Their graven Images; for 'tis most plain
They Idolize: But as for me, I feign
No holiness inherent for to be
In th'Altar, when to it I bow my knee.
Jayle.
This is the Papists Plea for what they do 
Certam. Relig.
In Image-Worship; yea, they tell thee so
In express words, accursing every one
Which worship Images of Wood or Stone.
Now therefore if this Plea for thee will serve,
'T will Image-Worship full as well preserve.
Cathederal.
I wish thou be no Papist all this while,
Thy disputation savours of their Stile;
Nor need I doubt, but 
Rome hath her Consorts
With thee; who in a hidden way deports
Themselves, that so they may advantage take,
My Church and all her holy things to shake.
Jayle.
Mistake not 
Minster, I no Papist am,
I only shew what thou must say, and can
No
 [...] choose but say (till thou be better grounded)
That when thou call'st 
Rome Whore, thou art con­founded
With her; because in truth she is thy Mother:
She tells thee so, and thou canst shew no other.
Cathederal.
All this thou speak'st, because I was baptiz'd
By th' 
Roman Church, and also emolliz'd
Or form'd into a Church, and there Ordain'd
By 
Babylonish Priests, with whordoms stain'd;
This I must grant. We likewise had from thence
The Scriptures; yet thou canst with them dispense.
Jayle.

[Page 32]The latter will not prove the former sound,
For though a 
Jew or 
Turk the Book had found,
And so from them I should receive the same,
Yet hence no man could argue (without shame)
That now if by the 
Jew or 
Turk we be
Ordained Bishops, it must satisfie.
Cathederal.
VVell, if't be so that th'VVhore of 
Babylon
Can give no Baptisme, then I have none:
Or if she could no Bishops well Ordain,
I must confess my calling will prove vain.
But yet I'll hold me where I am, till thou
A way more clear than this my way canst show.
Jayle.
Who ere they be gives others holy Orders,
Must needs be such as are within the borders
Of holy Church; now sith thou dost exclude

Rome from the Church, to thee she's not endu'd
With power Ordinative. But the way
Of Ordination, I'll anon display.

CHAP. IV.

The Arg.

The Jayle the Minster doth detect,

As unbaptiz'd and vain.

The Minster doth the Charge reject;

The Jayle doth it maintain.

Jayle.

BEcause six Lines no Preface will allow,

My next Objection presently I'll show,

Which on an Antient Maxime I will ground;

No BAPTISME No CHURCH can wel be found.

VVherefore the Point for thee to Answer shall

Be this, Thou hast no Baptisme at all.

Cathederal.

[Page 33]

Prodigious Jayl! where got'st thou this Objection?

'Tis some Anabaptistical infection.

But sith thou ha [...]t my Christendom deny'd;

First I'll appeal to Rome, there to be try'd,

From whom my Infant-sprinkling I receiv'd,

Which to be Baptisme is now believ'd.

Jayle.

'Tis well confest, and lo, what shall I think?

How canst thou now refuse with Rome to drink

Their Transubstantiated Cup, sith thou

Thy Babyes-Sprinkling from Rome must avow?

But let Rome judge and she will tell thee plain;

No Scripture owns thy Sprinkling, so 'tis vain.

Cathederal.

Rome doth indeed tell thee and all men so;

But she had be [...]ter have said nothing tho.

But as for me, I Scriptures can produce

Which shew Infant-Bapti'm th'Apostles use.

I other proves from Circumcision draw,

To prove the point in hand a divine Law.

Jayle.

If Circumcision be thy President,

Bell. de Bapt. S. N. Antidote. T. B. End to Controv.

The Papists say, Baptism hath no extent

To Femals; for the Law only assigns

For Circumcisions subjects Masculines.

And for thy other Texts 'tis a vain crack,

The Learned Papists say, such Texts you lack.

Cathederal.

What? art thou turned Papist, that thou dost

Mat 28. 19.

Of their Confessions in this case so boast?

But see my Texts; Matthew the twenty eight,

Acts 16. Act. 2. 38, 39.

With Acts the second, gives apparent light

For Infant-Baptisme. So the sixteenth

1 Cor. 7. 14.

Of th' Acts; and seventh of the first Corinth.

Jayle.

[Page 34]

Teaching precedes Baptizing, Matthew saith;

Both Texts in th' Acts the same in substance hath.

(That Text in Corinths speaks not of Baptizing)

So then sith Infants are of Catechizing

Uncapable, these Texts teach no such thing

As that for which thou dost them hither bring.

Cathederal.

Infants are holy, Ergo they must be

Baptized in the name of th'Trinity.

All Nations are enjoyn'd to be baptiz'd.

Herein whole Families were not despis'd.

Here's ground enough to prove Infant-Baptism,

And consequently to rebuke thy Schism.

Jayle.

The unbelieving Husband's sanctifi'd.

Thy Logick saith, Baptism must be apply'd

To them. Yea They are part of every Nation;

Ergo must be Baptized, if thy fashon

O [...] arguing be good: but this may shew

How 'tis unsound, inconsequent, untrue.

Cathederal.

Thou tak'st no notice of the Families,

Which I observ'd th'Apostles did Baptize.

This Allegation is unanswerable,

Ergo Infant-Baptism stands here most stable.

I challenge thee, resolve this if thou can:

For 'tis not yet resolv'd by any man.

Jayle.

The Texts are clear, the same that were Baptiz'd,

Were first by Paul and Silas Catechiz'd.

'Tis said they did Believe in God also.

Acts 16. 14, 15,—32, 23, 34—40.

Th' Apostles for to visit them did go.

As they were Brethren: which things consider'd,

Thy boasting of thy proof from hence is wither'd.

Cathederal.

[Page 35]

Proud Jayle! how i'st thou darest thus contemn

The Expositions of my Learned men?

Who with one voyce these Texts do explicate,

My Pedobaptisme to vindicate.

Art thou grown wiser than my Doctors all?

'Tis time that I thee to account should call.

Jayle.

Thy Learned men! why I have more than thou,

Who do my sentence on these Texts allow,

To wit the Papacy, who do exceed

The number of thy Doctors, and can read

As well as thou. And now I further add,

Thou hast no Baptism, for thy Manner's badd.

Cathederal.

O I perceive my Sprinkling doth offend thee,

And by thy Dipping thou assay'st to rend me.

But wilt thou know the Scripture doth thee quash;

For BAPTIZO is taken there to wash.

The Pharisees did wash their Cups and Hands:

They did Baptize them, so in Greek it stands.

Jayle.

Some drops of Water sprinkled on some part

Of Cups or hands alone, all washers art

Doth scorn to call a washing: for except

The water wholly drench them, we'll suspect

They are not wash'd; so in those Texts is nothing

But what doth bring thy Sprinkling into loathing.

Cathederal.

The Arguments for both these points are known

Some by the Papists, some by me are shown.

And lately some by Calvins off-spring were

Brought into light; now therefore let me heat

Thee briefly touch each parties Argument,

In which Discourse to hear thee I'm content.

Jayle.

[Page]

I'm well content; And now to what is spoken
I'll here add something, as a further token
Of the unsoundness of Pedorantism,
As they maintain who are of 
Calvins Schism.

Yet first I will endeavour to confute
The Papal Ple
 [...]; for they do much repute▪
Infant Baptism to be such a Tradition,
As stands upon Apostolick Commission.

Most strange it is, to see how our 
three sorts
Of Clergy-Men 
three wayes themselves deports,
For vindication of their 
Babish-washing:
FIRST 
Papists by 
Tradition come forth slashing
All down before them, in their own conceit.
NEXT comes the 
Prelate forth, us to defeat
With 
CIRCUMCISED Arguments, and those
Which from the 7th of 
Corinths never rose.
THEN comes the 
Presbyter, and he'll maintain,
Infants Disciples are, and so remain,
Subjects for Baptisme. But by and by
I hope to shew their Plea's a fallacy.
But though the 
Papists boast of their 
Tradition

For Infant-Baptism (that ground of Division)
To be Apostolically descended
From the first Age, and by th' whole Church com­mended
To these our dayes. Yet divers reasons may
Be rendred, which their falshood doth betray.

First this, Th'Apostles by Tradition would
Not null the way wherein Christ bad them build 
1 
Reason
His Church: but 
Infant-Baptization hath
To 
D
 [...]solation brought that Antient Path,
Almost in every Nation of 
Europe,
Chiefly where Kings are Subjects to the 
Pope.
Therefore this 
Popish way 
Traditional,
Is no Tradition 
Apostolical.

[Page 37]
The 
second Reason may thus framed be: 
2 
Reason
No Writing of approv'd Authoritie,
In the first hundred, names 
Infant Baptism;
Therefore 'tis but an 
innovated Schism.
Yea, in the second hundred's latter end
It scarce was heard of; nor did it extend
To any large dimention; and beside,
Some Antients the
 [...] against it boldly cry'd,
As an unnecessary practice. Here

Tertullian my witness doth appear.

I'le add to him the record which is given 

Tertul. chap. 39.
By 
Vives on 
Augustine, where 'tis driven
(Infant Baptism I mean) from all reception

In antient times, see therefore his Collection,
As English'd by 
J. H. and many other.
Yea, see 
Augustine, where that Learned Brother
Doth write to this effect. 
Now those whom weAugustin.

Into the Church by Baptisme (saith he)

Do give admittance, we the same do teach

To live so chast, that none may them impeach

In Widowhood, or Marr' age honourable,

That they the Gospel fame do not disable.
Upon this sentence 
Vives saith, 
Lest weVives.

Should be deceiv'd through its obscuritie,

We ought to understand that None of old

Baptized were, till they could well unfold

What the Baptismal purgation did mean.
So then 
of Old Infants were quite and clean
Exempt from Baptisme, in the opinion
Of 
Vives, whose words must have some dominion
With such as rest on Learned-mens perswasion,
As that is now become the most mens fashion.

The learned 
Grotins doth the same aver, 
Grotius 
judgment on points controv. p. 91.
Saying, 
In antient time for to defer


[Page 38] 
Baptisme till ripe years, at liberty

Was left. Thus he with Truth doth well comply,
Whilst our late learned men the Truth withstand,
To force all men to stoop to their Command,
'Gainst truth of Scripture and Antiquity,
And so involves this Age in misery.

Add further, That which no man can gainfay,
That 
Jeroms, Nazienzen, and I may
Add 
Austin, Ambrose, and that Emperour 

See Den 
contra Marshal.
Call'd 
Theodosius, who though they were
Children of 
Christians, right much commended
For such as holy Church right well befriended,
Yet these their Children they did not baptize, 
See a book, called 
a wel grounded Treatise of Bapt.
Till they discretion had the same to prize:
Yea thirty years divers of them attained
Ere Christ in Baptisme was on them named.

And sith 
Augustine is afirm'd to be
The ablest Doctor which Antiquitie
Doth name, I'le therefore shew that he was ra­ther 
August. Contess.
To 
Us than 
Papists a true antient Father.
Unto which purpose see his own Confessions,
Where you may find in very plain expressions,
His pious Mother was right virtuous
In Christian Faith, and of Life courteous.
And how that he, be'ng but a youth of years,
Did much desire in faith, with pray'rs and tears,
That he, as then, might forthwith be baptized;
But to defer the same he was advised.
Because the Church did fear lest sin should be
A hindrance to the life of Sanctitie.
Yea, though at this time he was sick to death,
(As was suppos'd) yet he no Baptism hath
Allowed him, but he was well restored,
And liv'd till thirty years, and then adored


[Page 39] The Name of 
CHRIST, in that his Ordinance
Of 
holy Baptisme, And did advance
To perseverance in that great Profession
Of 
Christianity. Now who possession
Can claim so rightly of this boly Man
(For one of their Church) as the 
Baptists can?

The same I think I might well say of all
The antient Fathers; so that here I shall
Desire any learned man to name
Some One that hath attained to the fame
Of 
Antient Father, for the first four Ages,
That was baptiz'd an Infant; and his wages
Shall be my thanks. Till when I'le tak't for true
There's no man can me such a Father shew.

Now these things weigh'd, gives clear demon­stration
That 
Infant Baptism had no general station
Till more than half a thousand years revolved
From Christ. So this tradition is dissolved
From Apostolical repute; therefore
Let all true Christiane lock't out of their door.

What our late Prelates urge for its defence,

Confuted is above in th' Conference.

And now let's hear what th' 
Presbyter hath said
In his late Catechise-Book, which was made
By well-nigh threescore of their choice Divines,
Who unto 
Baxter the first place assigns.
Their words at length I'le faithfully set down,
And then the weakness of them shall be shown.
Weakness, I say, as they pretend to shew
Ground for Infant-Baptism: for else they'r true.

A Book, entituled, The Agreement of divers Ministers in the County of Worcester, &c. coming To my hands, being sent to a Friend of mine; [Page 40] The party sending it, supposing it gave very clear evidence against the Anabaptists. I therefore searched what it said in that respect; and found in their Answer to the ninth Question the very thing which we hold in the point of Baptism, clearly asse [...]ted and proved. The Question and Answer are verbatim as followeth.

Question.

What are the publick means which Christ hath appointed to Salvation?

Answer.

Christ hath appointed that fit men shall be ordained his Ministers to disciple the uncalled, and to baptise all that are Disciples. Mat. 28. 19, 20. Mark 16. 15.

This is all they say in that Book concerning Baptism, nor quote they any other Scriptures: whereupon I wrote is followeth.

What! shall nigh fixty of wise learned men
(Yea of the prime) be contradicted, when,
After no small debate, they published
This Book, which seems with Zeal and Truth be­spred?
Our 
Catechisers, grave & learned all,
How can a work by such performed fall?
Good 
Reader, bow thine heart to understand
What's true, though't be from an unlearned hand.
The wisdom of the wise must come to nought;
For so it was foretold, and now is brought 

Isa. 29. 15 1 
Cor. 1. 29, 26, 27, 28.
In part to pass; since thus much may be said,
Ev'n of these men, they quite destroy the trade
Of their so much adored baptizing
Of Infants. Wherefore them this song I'l sing.

Our Catechisers must be catechiz'd,

How and 
what persons ought to be baptiz'd.


[Page 41] For here they lie i'th dark, and will not see
What's true, what's false, though by themselves it be
Made manifest, in this their little Book,
To every Reader, who doth please to look
In page the one and thirtieth, where they say
Concerning 
Baptising, This is Christ's Way;

That such as are uncall'd must first be taught.
Now Infants are 
uncall'd, and therefore ought,
By their direction, not to be baptized,
And yet, as though all this had not sufficed;
They further tell us, 
All that are Disciples

Baptiz'd must be into the sacred Titles

Of Father, Son, and Spirit. Then they cite

Mathew the eight & twenteth, which gives light;
With 
Mark the sixteenth, full to what 
they say,
And 
we say th' same; and thus they cast away
Their Infant Baptisme, sith Infants can
Be no Disciples made by th' wisest man,
That is amongst this Catalogue I mean,
Or else their skill is more than we have seen.
For sith 
Disciple doth import a Learner
By others teaching, he's a weak discerner
That taketh new-born Infants for to be

Disciples; Thus we may mans folly see.

Cathederal.

As for the 
Presbyters, let them maintain
Their plea. But for Tradition 'tis most plain
It stands with me. And tho thou hast now shown
Some few who did thy way of Baptism own:
Thou dost not prove that ever these men taught
'Gainst Infant Baptisme, yet this thou ought
To shew; but this can in no wise be shown:
For 'tis most clear they did my Baptim own.

Jayl.

[Page 42]

Because I hate disingenuity,
I grant some Antients did with thee comply.
But yet I say, th'most Antient (if not all)
Such doctrine taught, as doth in question call
Thy Infant Baptisme. And some did so
Oppose it, that their lives they did forgo
In opposition to it, in our Nation,
When first upon our Land it made invasion.

But ere I come to speak of these sad dayes,
We'll cast our eye on some doctrinal rayes
Of th' Antients, that the mist they may expel,
And clear our way. First 
Jerom 
in Mar 28
Jerom doth us tell,

The Lord commanded first to teach, and then

Baptise such as appeared faithful men.
And 
Justin Mart. 
in Orat. ad Autho. pium.
Justin Martyr doth the same avow.
And 
Ath
 [...]n. 
Serm 3. 
contra A­rian.
Athanasius doth that truth allow.
Haim. 
in Mat 28
Haimo avoucheth this for verity.
And 
Rab. 
decret.
Rabinus the same doth testifie.
Beda 
in Act. 19
Beda is of this mind, and plainly saith,

Th' Apostles did instruct men in the Faith
And then baptise them. So 
Strig. 
in Act. 8.
Strigelius
Did likewise teach. So did 
Euseb. 
Eccles. hist. l. 6.
Eusebius.
Basil. 
l. 3. 
cont. Eunomi.
Basil and 
Aug. 
ad Salcot
Austin do this Doctrine own.
Cyp. 
Epist. ad Magnus. Fab. 
5th part, f
 [...]l. 107.
Cyprian before them did the 
same make known;
With others, whom I now refuse to name,
Sith these are persons of the greatest fame.

And now, O 
Minster, pray thee well observe
What strength I have from Records, which pre­serve
The mem'ry of our Nations first reception
Of Gospel-light; see therefore this collection
Out of 
Fabian his right ancient story,
In the fifth part, where though he greatly glory
Of that great Monk, 
Augustine call'd by name,
Yet, unto his and thy no little shame,


[Page] He doth confess that 
Brittons Bishops did
Refuse to baptise Infants, tho much chid
By that great Monk. Their reason was, they say,

Such things had not been taught them till that day.
Yet they the Gospel long before obeyed,
And in the love thereof were firm and stayed.
But now (alas) for this their just denyal
Of 
Austins motion, they strait met with tryal:
For 
Fabian relates how they were slain;
And 
Fox upon 
Augustine layes the blame, 
Fox 
Acts & Mon.
At least in part: and can assign no cause,
But that they did not bow to 
Austins Laws.

Now 
Minster, if we take the perfect time
When in this Land the Gospel first did shine,
Which was more than four hundred years before

Austin the Monk set foot upon our shore,
(During which time no persons were baptized,
That I can find, till they were catechised.)
Then 'tis most clear my Baptism thine out dates
Four hundred years, as 
Fabian relates,
In this our Island; and in other places,
Mine hath the old foot-steps, thine noval traces.

But why do I thy doing daign to name

Baptisme! for in truth it is a shame
For to vouchsafe it such an appellation,
Only I use it, 'cause our disputation
Doth so require. But 
Sprinkling never can
Suit with God's Word, delivered unto man
For his direction in that Ordinance
Of 
Baptizontes, sith that clear instance
In 
John the third, and twenty third, hath said,
The Reason why 
John Baptist us'd his trade
In 
Enon, was because of 
plenitude

Of Water, which doth 
Sprinkling Clear exclude


[Page 44] From being 
Baptisme. As also doth
The act of 
Philip and the 
Eunuch both;
Sith both went 
into th' Water for to act
What Baptisme requires in th'outward fact.
Yea, Christ our Lord, who knew the Father's will,
Went 
Into Water, Baptism to fulfill.
Now whether Scripture, or thy Doctors be
The safest guide herein, I leave to thee.

Cathedral.

Doubtless, O Jayl, in this bend of quotations

Thou'rt guilty of no small falsifications.

I ask thee whether thou hast read each Father,

Whose words in this sort thou hast scratch'd together?

If not (as doubtless not) sith thou'rt unlearned,

O how presumptuous then art thou discerned!

Jayle.

I answer freely; some I've read, not all

The Works of these whose witness forth I call.

The most I've read, even as they are translated,

By those to whom thy self art 'sociated:

Which therefore must more claim thy estimation,

Than if they were the fruit of my translation.

Cathederal.

Whereas my Sprinkling thou so ill dost brook,

Thou mayst remember, if thou please to look.

Into my Common-Prayer-Book, I allow

See vulg. Catechise in Com. p [...]ayer-book.

That way in case of weakness. But I show,

In the same place, that dipping is God's way

For Baptisme to be perform'd this day.

Jayle.

I do confess thou sayst so; but, behold,

When thou presumed for to be so bold

To give an inch, thy Doctors took an ell:

And now this weakness doth all strength expel

[Page 45] Out of thy Church. And God's way is rejected,

And, as a foolish thing, by thee neglected.

Cathedral.

No Alteration in these things I see

Will be assented to by such as thee!

As if we must in these cold Climates go

Into the Water when baptis'd! But lo.

The time requires the Conference should end,

Now therefore unto what remains descend.

CHAP. V.The Arg.

The Minster's 
Consistory Court

The Jayle 
to visit goes:

The Minster 
takes it in ill sort

She should that place disclose.
Jayle.
MOngst other things whereby 
Christs Church doth shine,
We are to reckon 
Christian Discipline.
This Ornament thou wants. Whence I conclude
Christs Church consists not of thy 
multitude,
Nor yet of this thy gorgious 
Courtly Tent;
Because you all reject Christ's Government.
Cathederal.
What! dost 'come here to hold thy 
Visitation?
That thou beginst to make this exclamation
Against my 
Court; whose wayes thou cast not know,
Nor will I unto thee my secrets show.
Yet will I this my Government maintain
'Gainst which thou mayest strive, but all in vain.
Jayl.
Well, but before we try thy Discipline,
Let's take a view of those brave men of thine,
Which are thy Officers; let's know their names
(Or Titles) for, behold their glorious Trains


[Page 46] Seem to import they are no Fishers mates,
Nor yet (like 
Paul) Tent-makers sociates.
Cathederal.
These are their Titles; and the first degree

Arch-Bishops are; the next 
Lord-Bishops be,
Attended with their 
Bishops, Suffragans,

Arch-Deacons, Deans and 
Chapters, Courtezans;
With 
Iudges, Surrogates, and 
Proctors store,

Apparitors, with very many more.
Jayle.

Arch-Bishops and 
Lord-Bishops! what is this?
Did not our Saviour all such titles hiss
Out of his Church, when his Disciples would
Have bin the chief, that so they might have rul'd
By Domination over those, to whom
Christ did intend they servants should become?
Cathederal.
Unless these Titles 'gainst plain Scripture be,
Thou canst not them condemn, nor do I see
Those Texts alledg'd which any whit oppose
These Titles, but 'tis meant of such as those
Which 
Papists give unto their 
Popes: But I
Have eft condemned that Supremacy.
Jayle.
Thy Titles are as much beyond the Line
Of holy Writ, and full as 
clandestine
As those amongst the 
Papists: for whilst they
Make one great Pope (now heed well what I say)
Thou makest many Popes; for thy 
Arch-Lords
Their 
Fancies force upon us for 
God's words.
Cathedral.
I thee require some Scriptures to produce
Which shews my Titles to be such abuse
As they prohibit; otherwise thy plea
In this our contest cannot mine outweigh:


[Page 47] For all things which 'mongst 
Papists are esteem'd
Must not unlawful for that cause be deem'd.
Jayle.

Peter (an Elder) Elders doth command
The Churches oversight to take in hand, 
1 
Pet. 1. 5.
Without becoming Lords; and 
Paul avows
He preached Christ 
as Lord, and likewise shows
He preach'd himself a servant (for Christ's sake) 
2 
Cor, 4. 5
To th'Church; now this against thy Lords doth make.
Cathedral.
'Tis true, the letter of these Scriptures do
Seem to oppose Lord-Bishops, but you know
The Scripture hath a secret sence, and can
Not easily be understood; now then
How canst thou tell the Lordship here, is meant
Of those 
Lord-Bishops which my Church frequent.
Jayl.
The Texts must needs be meant of some that 
lord it
In things 
Temporal: or (as thou dost word it)
Of 
Lords Spiritual. But 
Peter doth
Allow the first; yea, and to speak the t
 [...]oth,
Commands the Church all such (as such) t'obey:

Ergo, 'tis Spirit' Lords he thrusts away.
Cathedral.
Thy 
major Proposition must be true,
Sith needs it must be meant of one of th'two.
Thy 
minor's likewise true: 
Peter doth call
The Church t'obey Lords Magistratical.
That then I must deny, is thy Conclusion:
And truly why? It makes for my confusion.
Jayl.
If th' Propositions both be verified,
Th' Conclusion can in no wise be denied,
Logicians say: and therefore thou art one,
That from both Truth and Reason's so far gone,


[Page 48] As neither will thy Lordship cause to bend,
Till Christ the Lord his Judgments on thee send.
Cathedral.
Leave off, proud 
Jayl, thou art not yet my Judg;
But thou shouldst rather know thy self my 
Drudg.
Nor will I thus permit thee, at this season,
To charge me with the want of Truth or Reason.
Turn then thy course unto my Discipline,
And do not thus my Lordship undermine.
Jayl.
Thy Discipline we must find in thy Court,
To which I see poor men (compell'd) refort
To pay their Money. And I also see
Thy Officers as greedy of their Fee
As any Lawyers; And I likewise hear
These Fees do make them reel with 
Wine & 
Beer.
Cathedral.
Touching my Court thou shalt instructed be
Ere long what they do there, I'le warrant thee.
And as for those who come unwillingly,
They'r such as from my Laws have trod awry:
And I shall let such know their punishment
Must peirce their purse, till they be penitent.
Jayl.
Purse-penalties the Church of Christ knows none,
As she is such, nor can it once be shown
In all the Apostolical Directions
In holy Writ, there should be such exactions.
And doubtles whilst thou 
thus minds 
earthly things

Paul under a most sharp reproof thee brings.
Cathedral.
Purse-penalties alone may not excuse
Those that my Laws presumptuously abuse:
for Heresie deserves the most severe
Chastisement, others for to put in fear,


[Page 49] Even 
Confiscation, 
 [...],
This crime 
 [...], the holy Scripture saith.
Jayle.
This i
 [...] a Monstr
 [...] Disciplin
 [...] fo
 [...] you,
Who Gospel Laws pretend for what you doo.
'Ti
 [...] true, by 

 [...], Death might be inflicted
On some 
 [...]:
But if the Church in 
 [...]
Should so proceed, 'twould now prove Persecu­tion.
Cathederal.
Here thou 
 [...] ▪
But I am clear from such 
 [...]:
For I no 
 [...]; but 
 [...],
I punish such 
 [...],
That I might them reduce from Heresie,
Or others keep in Christian purity▪
Jayle.
That thou' it a 
 [...]
Witness in part some 
 [...] whom thou ha
 [...]t slain▪
And partly some thou do
 [...]t at this day keep
In Prison, only cause they cannot sleep
With thee in 
 [...], but the L
 [...]d's Precept
 [...]
Have chosen as a Rule unto their steps.
Cathederal.
Those I 
 [...], and these I have slain,
Are such as would in Here
 [...]ie remain;
Yet 'tis not really I, but 't
 [...] the Power
 [...]
Which punish 
 [...] these Ma
 [...] of yours.
'Tis true, 'tis I advi
 [...]e them thus to do it,
And so shall still, and care not who do know it.
Jayle.

So 'tis my will, is all the rule indeed
By which thou do
 [...] thus 
 [...]idgedly proceed.
For from good ground it never can be shewed
That thou or other ought to have imb
 [...]ewed


[Page 50] Your hands in their blood, who did well behave them
In all things civil, but to God should leave them.
Cathederal.
So then it seems for things meerly religious
Thou would have no man flain; 
O most prodigious!
But then the T
 [...]res will over-grow the Wheat,
And every one will publish his d
 [...]ceit.
Whereas by 
 [...]ans of my sharp punishment
These evils I can easily prevent.
Jayle.
Tis known that for more than three hundred years
The Church had no defence from worldly Peers;
Yet Truth with purity did greatly prosper;
Errors they quash'd as falt as they did foster;
At least in such sort as may equallize
What thou hast done by severe penalties.
Cathederal.
I said that 

 [...] would 'mongst the 
Wheat in­crease,
But this thou tacitly goest by in peace.
'Tis not the 
Heresie, but 
Hereticks,
There is the spinch where this Conference sticks.
Now if to Kings it do not appertain
These Tares to put away, they must remain.
Jayle.
To them it appertains not as they'r Kings:
For so men may be, though plung'd deep in things
Which makes them Hereticks: Also the 
Tare
Which Christ intendeth, by him suffer'd are
Here to 
 [...]e
 [...]ain▪ until the Judgment-day,
Yet hath the Church them alwayes put away.
Cathedral.
Well; this in short I see is thy opinion,
Kings ought protect all those in their Dominion
In Life, Estate, and all things necessary,
If from their Civil Laws they do not vary.


[Page] As for the Church she only may do this,
Punish with Censures such 
 [...]s do amiss.
Jayle.
What is the utmost bounds of Kingly powers
I'le not dispute in this discourse of ours,
Which may perhaps be more than I well know:
Yet sure in Church-respects the Scriptures do
Not give them pow'r (as Kings) to execute
Church-Discipline, and that's what I dispute.
Cathedral.
If Kings did not assist by penalties
My Church, I see men would me soon dispise:
Nor could I live, sith all my 
Maintenance
I chiefly have by their 
good Countenance.
And hence it is men readily obey
My Discipline in whatsoere I say.
Jayl.
Alas, alas, that thus it should be said,
And truly too! O how's Christs Gospel made
A meer pretence, whilst men their Bellies do
Make their great God. But this th' Apostles show
Was once the, way that false Apostles went;
And to the same way they are still intent.
Cathederal.
What, wouldst thou have men sit i'th Church as Judges
Of her misdoings, only as her Drudges.
Take from my Church the profits thereto due,
And Officers thou wouldest find but few.
And thus the 
Church-affairs would soon be 
slighted
Yea and perhaps the Church would be 
benighted.
Jayl.

Benighted! why? Is Silver your great Candle,
Or th'Oyl that feeds it? One this point did handle
In the Affirmative (who appertains
Unto thy Church) when like to lose his gains


[Page] Of Tithes. But 
Paul, yea and all such as he,
Us'd to perform their Office without Fee.
Cathedral.

Paul doth allow such as do minister
In Church affairs, thus to be sinister,
So as to live upon the Church; So then
We do what 
Paul allows, ev'
 [...] all my men,
Which at my Altar serve, or in my Court.
Thus have we Fees and Tithes in Gospel-sort.
Jayl
 [...].
Such as are taught, ought to communicate
By gift to such as do officiate;
That it might be a fruit to the account
Of such as give: but no Text doth amount
To prove, that you by force should ought compel
For what you 
p
 [...]ach, from those mongst whom ye dwell.
Cathedral.
I see thou wouldest all our holy things
Proceed as fruits which from the Spirit springs,
Whether our service to the Church, or their
Respects to us for all our pious care.
But still I tell thee 
n
 [...]ll thus my Revenue,
Nor Church nor Ministry would long continue.
Jayle.
No Argument more clear that thou art none
Of Christ his Spouse, that fair and lovely one;
Whose things are all perform'd by Charity,
Which works by love. Now this disparity
'Twixt her and thee, shews you cannot be one,
Till Grace abound, and Selfishness be gone.
Cathederal.
I will not yeeld to this thy Argument,
Yet further talk about it I'le prevent,
And hear if thou hast yet a fresh Objection
Left unpropounded, more for my detection.


[Page] Then prove thy self, what thou denieft to me,
To wit, 
Christs Church; now let's thy Answer see.
Jayle.
Object! a very redious thing it were
To say all that might be objected here.
But this I say, the walking of thy Churches
Shews that amongst you all uncleanness lurches;
So that, as 
Paul saith, it were a great shame
The things you do in secret, once to name.
Cathederal.
What then, 'tis known we have a discipline
Provided, to the end we may refine
Our selves from these enormious voluptions,
And we have now removed some corruptions,
The rest in time may be removed all;
Intending this, I am not criminal.
Jayle.
Thy Discipline small power hath, but where
Thou may stiget money; or something appear
That's truly godly, those are punished:
But even in thy Court is found inbred
Great vileness, and of late it is increased
Abroad much more than when thy Court last cea­sed.
Cathederal.
Leave prying thus into my Churches walking.
I'm tired out with thy unpleasant talking;
I'now expect to hear thine own defence,
But not in this enterchang'd conference,
But by a speech continu'd, till thou do
The heads of what thou holdest plainly show.
Jayle.
The heads of what I hold, then I will shew,
As 'twas presented to the Kings own view;
Signed with fourty hands of such as own
The said Confession, which hath now been shown


[Page 54] In most parts of this miserable Nation,
Whose Church doth change, 
 [...] Powers have translation.

CHAP. VI.

The Arg.

The Jayl the Symbole of her Faith

With Scripture tight doth sing,

And brings some of the Antients forth

To witness every thing.

I. 
ARTICLE.ONe God alone (the Father) I believe,
From whom all things their being did re­ceive, 
1 Cor. 8. 6
Eternal, glor'ous, and his Attributes 
Isa. 40. 28
To tell forth fully no tongue once reputes
It self sufficient, but with admiration
Must give to him the highest Adoration.

The Witness of Antiquity.

There is but one God; in Trinity three Persons, Athanasin Symb. in Unity one God.

We believe, hold and faithfully maintain, that God the Father, begat his Wisdom, by which all Aug. de Civitar. Dei, chap 11. and chap. 24. was made, his only Son, one with one, co-eternal, most equal; and that the Spirit is both of the Father and of the Son, consubstantial and coeternal with them both; and that this is a trinity in respect of the persons, and but one God in the inseparable Divinity, &c.

II. 
ARTICLE.In the beginning God created Man,
In a condition so compleat, as then 
Gen. 1. 31 Eccles. 7. 29. Gen. 2. 27 & 3. 17, 18, 19.
No misery was mixed therewithal;
From which he by transgression took a fall,
And hereupon he misery archieved
On him and's off spring: yet it is believed


[Page 55] By me, that both this death and misery
Extendeth not to all eternity.

The Witness of Antiquity.

By the death of the body, we reade, that some Aug cont Advers. l. 1. c. 16. have died not for their own, but for the sin of others:—But in the death of the soul none dieth for the sin of another.

For as in Adam all die, both just and unjust; so Ambros. in 1 Cor 15. 22. in Christ shall all, both believers and unbelievers, rise, though unto punishment.

III. 
ARTICLE.There's one Lord Jesus Christ I do believe, 
Luke 20. 24. Rev. 22. 16. 1 Tim. 2. 5, 6. Heb 2. 9. 1 Joh. 2. 2.
By whom all things their beings do receive,
The only (natural) Son of the most High,
Yet born of 
Mary in virginity,
And so considered is as 
David's Son
And Off-spring 
for to sit upon his Throne.
Yet as he is the Son of God, he's Lord,
And Root of 
David, and th' Eternal Word.
This is he whom the Father freely sent
In his great Love, into the World, who went
As freely, and to death for all he gave
Himself, that all to life recourse might have.

The witness of Antiquity.

The World being all at peace, Christ (according Aug. de Civitat. Dei. l. 18. c. 46. & lib. 1 [...]. cap. 11. & lib. 11. c. 2. to the precedent Prophecy) was born in Bethlehem Judah, being openly Man of the Virgin his Mother, and secretly God of God his Father—Christ Jesus, the substance of Israel, and the son of David; —God's Son of God, taking on our Man without wasting Godhead, ordained Faith to be a pass for man to God, by his mean that was both God and Man.

[Page 56]

IV. 
ARTICLE.God's will is not that any man should perish;
Wherefore, that dying mankind he might cherish, 
1 Tim. 2. 4 Mark 16. 25. 2. Pet. 2. 1. Joh. 3. 18 & 3. 17. & 1. 7. Act. 17. 30 1 Joh. 5. 10.
His Son, the Lord of all, hath given Order
The Gospel should be preached in each Border,
to ev'ry Creature, and to every Nation,
To wit, that God holds forth Non-imputation
Of sins; so that men shall not die, because
Christ dy'd not for them; but because his Laws,
And Word, which calls for Faith in his rich 
Death,
Men do reject, and so themselves bequeath 
Heb. 3. 10, 18, 19.
To Infidelity. Hence it is clear,
That to all men at sometime doth appear
So much of Grace, as if they rightly mind it,
It holds forth Life to them that they find it.

The test of Antiquity.

God would have all men to be saved, but if Ambr. in 1 Tim. 2. they come to him, he so would it, not as that he would save them against their will.

Christ in mercy was born for all; but the unfaithfulness of Hereticks is the c [...]use that he that Ambr. l. 3 de Fide. cap. 4. [...]ug. tom. 7. Artic. falso. was born to all, is not born for all.

In respect of the greatness of the price, the Blood of Christ is the Redemption of the whole World.

V. 
ARTICLE.Concerning those whom Christ appoints for such 
Act. If. 22 23, 24. Acts 11. 19, 20. & 13 2, 3 & 1. 23.
As are the Pastors of the Gospel-Church,
I do believe that they must first be added
Unto the Church, as were those who were gladded
With 
Peters words; and growing in their stations
In gtacious gifts and good qualifications,
And throughly tryed, by their exereising
Their gifts, the holy Scripture so advising;

[Page 57] Such men the Church may chuse & them ordain, 
1 Cor. 1. 19, 21. 1 Cor. 2. 1, 4, 5.
(To minister as Pastors in Christ's Name)
By laying on of hands with holy prayers,
Assigning them to their respective cares,
To gather Churches; or to feed and guide them. 
Rom. 2. 21.
But as for such who for a while abide them
In humane Schools, only to be instructed
In humane Arts, and so to be inducted
(Without Repentance, and Baptism succeeding,
With growth in Grace) unto a Parish feedi
 [...]n;
Or rather to feed on their large Revenue,
Than to gain souls to Truth, there to continue:
Such I do say no Teachers ought to be,
But should be taught the Christian 
A. B. C.

The rest of Antiquity.

Eusebius all edging the Epistle of Alexander Bp Eus [...]. [...] l. c. 11. of Jernsalem, against Demetrius, saith; Thou saist it was never seen that the lay and secular people should dispute of the Faith in the presence of the Bishops. I marvel what moved thee to affirm a Lie so evident, inasmuch that as often as there is found any man that is sufficient and apt to give good counsel, and to instruct the people, the Bishops have accustomed to desire him to do it; as the Bishop of M [...]o [...] did Enelpius, &c.—And there is no doubt but that the other Bishops may do the like in their Diocesses, when they find any one which is a man fit to profit the people.

Ye drive them from God's Word, and will let Eccius Book of Obead. fol. 19. no man come thereto, till he have been two years Master of Arts. First you nurse them up in Sophistry, and in bene fundantum, and there corrupt their judgments;—then they begin not at the Scripture, but each one chuseth himself a Doctor severally, &c.

[Page 58]

VI. 
ARTICLE.Touching the way of man's Justification
Before the Lord, in order to Salvation; 
Rom. 5. 1 2 Cor. 5. 15. Rom, 4. 22, 23, 24
I say, it is by Faith in Christ our Lord,
That is, with heart believing that sweet word,
Which shews to man in Christ there is remission
Of sins for all through faith & through contrition;
For which great cause Christ worthily bespeaketh 
Rom. 3. 25, 26.
Their 
chief affections, and their fouls so breaketh
Wholly to yeeld to Christs most just Commands,
And to deny all Self, which Christ withstands;
And eke with godly sorrow do commit
Themselves to Christ's Grace to depend on it.
Such like believing men are justifi'd;
Their Faith will Righteousness be found when try'd.

The test of Antiquity.

The Medicine of the Soul is the only propitiation for the sins of all; that is, to believe in Christ.

How virtuous soever the antient righteous persons Aug. in verb Dom serm. 40. Aug. lib. cont. Felag c. 21. have been, they were not saved but by Faith.

It is manifest that such as have Faith in Christ, shall not be saved unless they have the Life of Greg. l. 6 ep. 15. Faith.

VII. 
ARTICLE.There is but only one most holy Spirit,
Which God doth give such richly to inherit 
Eph. 4. 4.
As do obey his Voice, that they thereby
May have the Grace themselves to mortify,
And be enabled in the Truth to stand 
Act, 5. 31.
Immovably (thout which no mortal hand
Can do the work of God) and that we may
Honour the Father and the Son each day,
Who is the Author and the Consummator
Of all our Faith. And 
John (that Revelator) 
1 Cor. 6. 11. Gal 5. 22. 23.
Doth say, this Father, Son and holy Spirit
Are 
One; and so the Name of God 
they merit.


[Page 59] The fruits which follow this great gifts reception
Is growth in ev'ry grace, and sins rejection.
Wherefore we say, these have it not received
Who are of 
Love (that Spirit fruit) bereaved,
Or destitute; so as they such deny
A quiet life, that would live peaceably.

The test of Antiquity.

That Spirit being the Fathers and the Sons, is Aug. de Civ. Dei, l. 11. c. 10 properly in Scripture called the Holy Spirit; It is neither Father nor Son, but personally distinct from both; and this Trinity is one God.

Behold the sign and token, whereby ye shall know those that are of God from the evil and Rupert. in Apoc. c. 13. wicked. Those are the wicked which do kill and lead into captivity, the which all those that are of God have not done nor do.

O Lord God, these are the chiefest and first that Bernard serm. conver. Paul persecuted thee, whom men see to love the highest seats and rooms in thy Church, and which bear the greatest rule. They have taken the Ark of Zion; they have occupied and used the Castle; and have afterward frankly and by power set all the City on fire: Their conversation is miserable: The subversion of thy People is pitiful.—Now holy Orders are given for occasion of most filthy gain, and they think gain to be piety and godliness.

VIII. 
ARTICLE.About Election this is that I've said,
That God from aye, before the World was made, 
Joh. 3. 16. Eph. 1 4.
Hath chosen unto Life such as believe,
And so in Christ through grace he'l them receive.
Yet I am confident God's purpose here 
2 Thess. 2. 13. Rom 9. 11
Stands not upon what Faith did fore-appear,


[Page 60] Or Works done by the creature, but alone
God's Mercy, Kindness and Compassion. 
Psal. 4. 3.
Thus 'tis 
of God who calleth: Yet behold
Let no man think that now he may be bold
To live in sin: for as our God is pure,
So can he no ungodly man endure.
Then this Decree to every Godly man
Hath its extent, as 
David witness can.

The test of Antiquity.

According to his mercy he saved us. This goodness which doth flourish in Christians doth Amb. in Tit. 3. arise out of the root of Divine Piety or Love; for God by his Mercy hath saved us in Christ.

The Apostle saith not, he hath chosen us when we were holy, but that we should be holy. Jerom apol. ad Ruffin. August.

Election goeth not onely before Works, but before Faith, where all good Works do begin.

IX. 
ARTICLE.Concerning Reprobation this I say,
No men (as men) of old were cast away, 
Jude 4. 2 Thess. 2 10, 11, 12.
But as they have God's Grace in wantonness
Abus'd, and lived in ungodliness; 
Rom. 2. 9, 10, 11.
To those indeed God sendeth strong delusions,
That they might damned be. Sith vain confusions
They rather chose than Truth in faithful love;
And hence it is God's Wrath 'gainst men doth move;
Yea against ev'ry soul that doeth evil,
So as to die the servant of the Devil.

The test of Antiquity.

The Damned cannot complain justly, because Amb. l. 2. de vocat. Gent. c. 1. &c. 2. it is their wickedness that doth cast them down into pain.—He was worthy to lose an unprofitable Faith, which did not exercise Charity.

God is good, and he is just. He may save a man without good works of his, because he is Aug, [Page 61] good; but he cannot condemn any man without his evil deserts, because he is just.

X. ARTICLE.

Concerning Infants, I believe they shall
Suffer no death, but that that's temporal;
And this their father 
Adam brought upon them:
But th'second 
Adam shal take it quite from them. 
1 Cor. 15. 22.
And further than that death that's temporal
No one shall die for 
Adams sinful fall.

Christ hath avouched Infants 'thout exception
To appertain to Heav'n: Then rejection 
Mat. 19. 14.
Of Infants into Hell, is such a preaching
As doth want Charity, and cross the teaching
And nature of our God. Yet thus they teach
Who do the Church her Baptisme impeach,
Contending that to Infants it pertains,
To some of whom yet they allow no gains
By means of Christ his Death; for this they say,
He only dy'd for some. And now we may
Demand how they did know he dy'd for those
Whom they baptize, and did the rest dispose
To hellish torments? See the cruelty
Of those who sprinkle Babes infancy!

The test of Antiquity.

By the death of the body, we read of some that have dyed not for their own but for others sins; Aug, cont ad vers. But in the death of the soul none dieth for another.

God cannot condemn any man without his evil Aug. deserts, because he is just.

XI. ARTICLE.

The only way by God and Christ ordained,
Whereby the sons of men should be constrained 
Mat. 28. 19, 20. Mark 16. 16.
To sit down in Christs Church, is Gospel-preach­ing,
Wherein a reconciled God is stretching
His Hand of 
Love extensively to all; 
Acts 2. 38 Acts 8. 12
And then to dip or baptize such as shall


[Page 62] Repent from sin, and faith in Christ profess,
Through Gods forbearance and great tenderness. 
& 18. 12.
I say, such only as are catechised, 
Gal. 4. 22 23, 24.
Are in the Scripture bid to be baptized
Into the Name of 
Father, Son, and Spirit.

But as for those who would by Legal merit, 
Matth. 3. 8, 9.
Or Parent int'rest, bring a fleshly seed
Into the Gospel-Church, all such indeed
I do deny, with that Scriptureless thing, 
Eph. 5. 11
Most truly called 
Infant Sprinkling.
Which custom hath, or would make void God's Word,
And bind the Church still with a Legal cord
Unto a fleshly line; And the New-birth
Would, as a useless thing, fall to the Earth.
This is one reason why we separate
From all such persons, that participate
We may not with these 
darksome wayes of theirs,
But rather by reproofs break through these 
snares.

The test of Antiquity.

The Lord commanded his Apostles that they should first instruct and teach all Nations, and Jerom in Mat. 28. afterward should baptize those that were instructed in the mysteries of Faith. For it cannot be that the body should receive the Sacrament of Baptism, unless the soul hath received before the true Faith.

The dipping into the Water, is the going down into Hell: the coming up out of the Water is Council of Worms chap. 5. Wilfrid. Strabo de rebus Eccles. c. 26 the Resurrection.

We must know that at the first, Believers were baptized simply in Flouds and Fountains.

XII. 
ARTICLE.I also do believe that the baptized
Believing souls, ought thus to be advised, 
Heb. 6. 1, 2.
To seek unto the Lord for his donation 
Acts 8. 12 5, 17.
(The Spirits gifts) for their mortification,

[Page 63] That by that Grace, their Life & their Profession 
Acts 19 6. 2 Tim 1 6 Rom. 8. 13.
May not unto each other seem oppression.
The way to ask this Gift in Scripture stands,
Known to be Prayer, with laying on of hands,
As one first point which in 
Christs doctrin's shown,
Whereby his Saints are from all others known.

The test of Antiquity.

Laying on of hands hath ever been the custom of the Church. Jerom ad Lucif. Aug de Bapt. l. 3. c. 16. Eras. paraph. on Heb. 6. 1, 2.

Laying on of hands, what is it but prayer over a man?

The first degree of Christianity, is, to be repentant of our former life;—Next to be taught that true-innocency and soul-health is to be hoped-for of God. Then forthwith that we be purged by holy Baptism. Then that we receive the holy Ghost by laying-on of hands.

XIII. 
Article.Concerning Perseverence, this I say,
And do believe, that in Christ's blessed way
Men ought, without a tossing to and fro, 
Act. 2. 42.
Continue stedfast; and these things must do,
Meet in a Church-Society together,
In the Apofiles Doctrine, to consider
And call to mind in Pray'r, with breaking Bread,
Their Saviour, till he come to raise the dead.

The test of Antiquity.

I pray you, O ye Bishops, which do think your Hillary contra Auxent. selves to be so, What Suffrages have the Apostles used for to preach the Gospel? with what power were they aided? Did they assemble the Church by the Kings Edict? They nourished and kept themselves by their hand-labour—and assembled the Church—against the Edicts of Kings.

—When wise and good People do meet together, [Page 64] we must not call that a Faction or Sect.— Tertull. Apol. c. 29 Saint Luke declareth the Order of the Primitive-Church; That the Faithful assembled themselves often times—for to preach the Word, and celebrate the Lords Supper.—We assemble to pray for the Emperour, &c.—and for Peace—to make commemoration of Divine Scriptures, and do feed and nourish the Faith with voice and holy words—We plant and graft most strongly our Faith; And do labour much to imprint in our hearts the discipline of the Commandments.

XIV. 
Article.I say moreover, though I thus contend
For th'old 
Church way, that men must either mend 
Heb. 12. 14 Isa. 1. 11, 12, 15, 16
As well in point of Life, as their Profession,
Shunning with all their might sin & transgression;
And in religious things be still devout,
Else from Heav'ns joys the Lord wil thrust them out.

He that wants Holiness sees not the Lord.
Let him that readeth meditate that word.

The test of Antiquity.

Let not sinnets therefore and wicked men secure Aug. de Civ. Dei. l. 21. c. 25 themselves by their continuance in the Church—nor renounce Christ their Justice, in committing any or all of the fleshly works, spoken of, Gal. 5. for he saith expresly, they shall not inherit the Kingdom of God which do such deeds.

—He that abideth in Christ, &c. hath taken the meat of Life—but he that discordeth from Prosp. in l. de sent: Christ doth not eat the flesh of Christ—although he do take every day the Sacrament of so great a thing.

XV. 
Article.(As once I said) The Churches Pastors ought
From 'mongst wel-graced Christians to be sought,

[Page 65] Chiefly such as have learned self-denial, 
Act. 14. 23 Ezek. 34. 2, 3.
(In which few worldly Priests will bide the tryal)
And such as by the Church are thus elected,
And eke ordained (as God's Word directed) 
2 Cor. 12▪ 14.
Knowing 'to feed the Flock with meat in season,
And to bear rule with Godliness and Reason, 
Ezek. 34.
With love and care seeking such Sheep as stray;
Such I do own as Teachers of God's way.
But such as feed themselves with others fat,
And keep the Flock from such like food as that
Which only can their soul relieve: And who
To seek for great Revenues rather go,
Than to enquire into the state of souls:
I say such Teachers do transgress the Rolls
Of holy Writ, And therefore I deny them,
And by this Testimony do decry them.

The test of Antiquity.

The Church was governed in times past by the Hieron [...] ep. ad Evag. common counsel and advice of the Presbyters—And that, Episcopum & Presbyterium unum esse; A Bishop and an Elder are all one.

Frederick sent this Message to Adrian the 4th; We shut up our Cities against your Cardinals, because we see that they prey upon the People. They do not ratifie Peace, but rake together Pence: They do not repair the World, but impair their Wealth.

Let none be ordained to the Ministry, unless Con. Carthagene [...]s can. 22. he first be examined of the Bishop, and approved by the People.

—The Pastors should seek the Salvation of mens Con. Cahil. c. 6. souls, not earthly commodity.

All Clergy men that are strong to labour, let Con. Carthag. can. 51, 53. them learn some Handicraft as well as Letters.

[Page 66]

XVI. 
Article.Such Ministers of Christ as have obtained
Free gifts from God, freely they are ordained
To serve the Church: and yet the Scripture wills 
1 Cor. 9. 17. ver. 11. G
 [...]l. 6. 6.
Some fruit for him which that ground rightly tills.
Wherefore such as are taught, as freely should
Communicate to them who forth do hold
The Word of Life, upon their Work-account,
That to the Givers good it may amount.
But as for Tythes (th
 [...]se forced consecrations)
I say, they are no Gospel-Ordinations.

The test of Antiquity.

If thou despisest not a Beggar, how much more oughtest thou to regard the Ox that treadeth out Aug. in Psal. 13. the corn in the floor. And in Psal. 146. He saith —Thou scarce payest the thousand part, yet I find no fault; do so still: for I so thirst after your well-doing, that I refuse not your very crums.

O Lord Jesus, thou hast multiplied the people, and thou hast not encreased their joy-They have B [...]rnard. removed the Offices—into shameful gain, and the health of souls is not searched for—they strive and contend most impudently daily by process for Bishopricks, Archbishopricks, &c. there remaineth nothing but the Man of Sin to be revealed, the Son of Perdition.

XVII. 
Article.The Scripture saith that Heresies must be,
And shews the way appointed us to free
Our souls therefrom; for such as do erect them, 
Tit. 3. 10, 11. 2 Thess. 3. 6. Rom. 16. 17.
The Church hath power wholly to reject them,
After the first or second Admonition.
Moreover, by Apostolick Commission
She hath a power also to withdraw
From such Disciples as transgress the Law


[Page 67] Of Christ, in point of Worship, or of life;
Peace to preserve, and terminate her strife.

The test of Antiquity.

The Antient Canons make two kinds of Excommunications; one greater, the other less: Decret Greg. 5. tit. 39. cap. 59. the greater not to be inflicted but upon the account of mortal or deadly sin.

Sins are not loosed nor retained at the pleasure of men, but according to the will of God, Aug de Bapt. l. 3. c. 13. and prayers of the Church.

XVIII. 
Article.Touching the point of falling off from Grace,
I do believe men so may lose their place 
Joh. 15. 1, 2, 3, 4. 5
In 
Christ the Vine (yea such as he doth say
Is in him) and, lest they should fall away,
Exhorteth them to make their biding-place 
1 Tim 1. 5, 6, 7. John 15. 6.
In him; yea, such may fall away from Grace
As once had Charity in pure heart,
And conscience good; yea, that unfained part 
2 Pet. 1. 5, 6, 7.
Of Faith: yet, wanting constant Watchfulness,
May turn aside, so fouly to transgress
As to be withered branches, and in fire
Burn and consume. But yet such as defire
(With constancy) and do the same indeed,
Add Grace to Grace, so certainly shall speed,
As they shall never fall; yea, no deceit
Of false Christs can them possibly defeat.

The test of Antiquity.

It is to be believed that some of the children of perdition, receiving not the gift of Perseverence Aug. de corep. & gra. c. 13. to the end, do begin to live in Faith that worketh by Charity, and for a time do live faithfully and justly, and after do fall.

In time of temptation they fall away—Some therefore revolt from Faith, because Verity avoucheth Bernard ep. 42. [Page 68] it; and by consequence from Salvation, because our Saviour rebuketh it; from whence we conclude from Charity also, without which Salvation cannot be obtained.

XIX. Article.

Such as are Poor in Christ his Congregation, 

 [...] Cor. 9. 7
Ought to be cared for by the Donation,
Or bounty of the Church (not by constraint) 
1 Cor. 8. 11, 12.
Which 
care should hold proportion with the 
want.
And for the more sufficient management
Of this affair, the Church ought to appoint 
Acts 6. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
Some faithful men therefore to be deputed,
With laying on of hands: Thus constituted,
They must now undertake this sacred Function, 
1 Tim. 2. 9, 10. 1 Pet. 3. 3
The 
Church to keep in 
peace & sweet 
conjunction.

Here be it noted, since men did decline
From this appointment (holy and divine)
And did by force compel, both rich and poor, 
Job 31. 14
To pay a stinted portion to the Poor,
(Which is but small) allotted for their living;
It hath destroy'd the Ordinance of giving
By free-Collection; And now Charity
With mens Estates holdeth no parity,
But their large sums are laid out to maintain
Gay clothing, Pearls, & all things which are vain.
VVhat will these men do when God riseth up
To cause all men to tast his Judgment-Cup?

The test of Antiquity.

Sacred Orders we call Deacons and Presbyters; I [...]noc. 3. dec. Greg l 1. c. 14. for these two the Primitive Church is found only to have had.

That which men do by compulsion is not a sacrisice; forasmuch as if it be not done voluntarily Lactant. Fi [...]mian. and with the heart, it's most execrable and accursed,

[Page 69] If thou hast riches, labour by well-doing to Aug. ep: c 6. con. cabil. c. 6 store them up in Heaven.

Christians must not be compelled to give their substance.

XX. 
Article.I do believe through Christ the Dead shal rise,
Because he lives, who once did not despise 
Isa. 26. 19
To die for them. Yea from the graves of earth 
Act. 24. 15
Each individual body shall come forth,
Both just & unjust; though when they were sown, 
1 Cor. 15. 21, 22, 42, 43, 44, 49
Weakness, and all Infirmity was shown;
Yet in the Refurrection they shall be
Made strong and firm to all eternitie,
Each pious man, body and spirit joyned,
To their desired place shall be assigned.

The test of Antiquity.

Every part of the bodies, perishing either in death, or after it in the grave, or wheresoever; Aug. de Civ. Dei l. 22. c. 21. shall be restored, renewed; and of a natural and corruptible body, it shall become immortal, spiritual, and incorruptible: Be it all made into pouder or dust, or by chance or cruelty dissolved into air or water, yet can it not be kept hid from the omnipotency of the Creator, who will not have one hair of the head to perish. Thus shall the spiritual flesh become subject to the spirit, yet shall it be flesh still.

XXI. 
Article.After the dead are come forth of the graves,
Whether of Earth, or Seas fierce raging waves, 
2 Tim. 4. 1
A Judgment that's eternal shall be given 

Heb. 7. 27.
At Christs appearing, coming down from Heav'n,
Which Judgment & which everlasting Sentence,
Can never be revoked by repentance. 
2 Cor. 5. 10.
Then good and bad, each must rewarded be,
As 
Christ the nature of their work shall see.

[Page 70]

The test of Antiquity.

In all these Chapters Augustine asserteth and proveth the resurrection of the Bodies of all men Aug. de Civ. Dei. lib. 20. c. 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21. from the graves of earth, or howsoever consumed; and he proves the Bodies of the Saints shall be spiritual and glorious in the Resurrection, and yet that they cease not to be bodies of real flesh.

And he proves that a body of flesh, and living, may endure in the fire unconsumed, and yet tormented. Aug. de Civ. Dei, l. 21. c. 2. There are (saith he) a kind of Worms that live in the fervent Springs of hot Baths, whose heat is such as none can endure it at certain times, and yet those Worms do so love to live in it, that they cannot live without. Whence he observes, seeing bodies of flesh may live in fire, and be nourished by it, 'tis easie to believe that a body of flesh may live in the fine, and be tormented by it; because to nourish is not proper to the fervent heat of fire, but to torment is proper thereunto.

XXII. 
Article.I do believe the same Christ which did shew
Himself alive by tokens plain and true; 
Acts 1. 3.
Who was beheld ascending into Heaven, 
Luke 24. 51. Acts 1. 9, 10, 11. Col. 3. 4. Re
 [...]. 19. 16. Psal. 22. 28. Zech. 14. 9. Psa. 72. 4 Rev. 5. 10 & 13. 15. 1 Cor. 3. 22, 23.
Quite from the sight of the select Eleven;
The same, the very same shall come again,
In the same manner wherein he was ta'ne
Up from the Earth. And when he shall appear,
The Saints their fruits of Faith shall richly wear.
For Christ the King of kings and Lord of lords,
Shall reign according to the holy words
Of these great Prophets in the Margent quoted:
For every Kingdom under Heaven's allotted
Unto our Christ; yea, and unto his Saints,
Whose heads a place to rest (sometimes) now wants.

[Page 71] Yea, God hath said, they then shall rule the Na­tions, 

Dan. 7. 27 Rev. 2. 26, 27.
Though here erst while they meet with Tribu­lations.

The test of Antiquity.

John's mention of a thousand years, Rev. 21. L [...]dovic. Vives coment on! Aug. de civit. Dei l. 20. c. 7. and Christ's words, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of the Vine, until the day that I drink it new with you in my Father's Kingdom, with many Prophecies touching Christ's Kingdom in Jerusalem, made some think that Christ would return into the World, raise the Saints in their Bodies, and live a thousand years here on Earth in all joy, peace and prosperity—The first Author of this Opinion was Papias Bishop of Jerusalem, who lived in the Apostles times. He was seconded by Irenaeus, Apollinarius, Tertullian, Victorinus, Picktaviences and Lactantius-—And many Martyrs and righteous persons held this opinion.

XXIII. Article.

The holy Scriptures are the Rule of Saints,

In Faith and Life, sufficient for their wants,

2 Tim. 3. 15, 16, 17. Joh. 20. 31 Isa 8. 20.

Through Jesus Christ: Yea they are profitable

To all good works, God's servants to enable.

The test of Antiquity.

The error of our forefathers ought not to be followed, but the Authority of Scripture and the Jerome Tom 6 in Jer. c. 9. Commandments of God, which he teacheth us. Truly, through ignorance of the Law, they receive Christ for Antichrist.

I dare not use to receive that which I read not. Amb. de incarnat. c. 9. Aug. in Psal. 6 [...].

Think not that it is in any other writing, if it be not in the Scripture: Let us seek to be resolved in the Gospel; If we find it not there, where shall we find it?

[Page 72]

XXIV. 
Article.In Gospel-times I do believe men ought
In things Religious to be forc'd to nought 
Mat. 7. 12
Against their Consciences, by Persecutions, 
& 13. 29, 30, 38, 39
Or Penal Laws 'gainst Gospel-Institutions:
But all should have like liberty, as those
Who in like cases do desire to chose
What they think near'st the Truth. But if the Pow'rs
Wil take what's theirs, & not give us what's ours,
We say they act not as the Lord directed,
When he bad 
do to others what's expected

By us from them. And tells us Tares with Wheat
Must grow together till the Harvest great.

The test of Antiquity.

Ambition doth aid it self by the Name of Christ; Hill. cont. Auxent. The Church doth fear and compel the people—She that was made holy by Persecutors terrour, now persecuteth, &c.

Let them both grow together until harvest—Which thing he spake to forbid the shedding of Chrisost. Hom. 47. in Mat. 13. Bould—for if the Hereticks should be put to death, War should be without Truce, &c.

This is then our desire unto your Reverence,—if it may be, that you would confer with our August. ep 58. Bishop peaceably, to the end that Error might be taken away—and not Men taken away.

But we, to the contrary, do not desire any, will Lactant. Firmian. Divin. Instit. lib. 5. cap. 21. he nill he, to worship or adore our God—for we trust in his Majesty that he hath great power to avenge himself on them that contemn him.

XXV. Article.This I believe concerning Magistrates
In every Nation should be Potentates,
For punishment of all that do transgress
By sleshly lewdness or dishonestness; 
1 
Pet. 2. 14.


[Page 73] And that, in order thereto, Civil Laws,
Who're just & wholsome, ought 'decide the cause
'Mongst Men (as such) 'thout having vain respect 
Tit. 3. 1.
Of persons; or to this or t'other Sect.
Due Punishment, and likewise due Reward, 
1 Pet. 2. 13.
Each one should have, 'thout partial regard.
And we believe Christ's Gospel doth enjoyn 
Act. 5. 29.
Our selves, and all men, freely to resign
Our selves, as Subjects, unto Magistrates
In their appointments. Only what relates
Unto God's Worship, wherein this we say,
That there such Rulers have no power to lay
Their Edicts on men's Consciences by force.
But if they do, yet shall we take't no worse,
Than humbly tell them we must needs obey
What God commandeth, rather than what they
Herein appoint us: and shall never bow
To Men in these concerns; Nor shall we show
Our selves 
rebellious, though they go to wrong us,
But bear with 
patience what's impos'd upon us.

The test of Antiquity.

Let every soul be subject to the higher Powers. He that enjoyneth this to every soul, whom hath L [...]odens. Ep cont. Paschal. 2 he exempted from subjection to Earthly Powers?

—I may not demand or ask these things but of him of whom I know I shall obtain them—I am Tertull. Apol. c. 30 his Servant—and am killed for his Doctrine—And do offer the best and greatest Sacrifice which he hath commanded.

Trajan the Emperor did send to Pliny to make enquiry of the manner of the Christians Life, and afterwards to persecute them them. Pliny Plin. lib. 10 ep. 317 writ again, That after he had throughly enquired with most cruel torments, until such time as he delivered them into the Hangmans hand to see [Page 74] them executed, yet he never did find any other thing, but that they accustomed to assemble at certain times to sing praises unto Christ as unto God.

Thus have I of my Faith confession made,
To which the test of th' Antients I did add,
Not that I think there's any such like plea
(Drawn from Antiquity) which more doth weigh
Than doth the 
Holy Text, which I have brought
In proof of every point; nor is there ought
So 
truly Antient as their divine sayings.

But sith some tell us tales, to your dismayings,
As though there's nothing in Antiquity
Which standeth with that Antient Verity
Which now I hold; I for this cause have brought
These 
Witnesses, to shew, that whilst thou thought
Antiquity was on thy side, thou dost,
In very deed, of 
empty nothings boast:
For sith I can from thine own Allegations
Out of the Fathers, bring such clear quotations
For what I hold, then doubtless I might shew
Yet many moe, and them both full and true,
For what I hold; and had I th' skill which thou
Hast in the Antients writings, might them show.
And herein I could wish that men of parts

(Who love the Truth) might so improve their Arts.

Cathederal.

As touching this thy tedious Confession,
To speak to ev'ry point would be oppression
Unto my patience; Then wait my pleasure,
For I to answer it must take some leisure.
But I remember thou didst me detect
As one inconstant. But that's thy defect.

Jayle.

[Page 75]

Sith to thy charge I laid Inconstancy,

I'le make't appear: For when the Papacy

Possession took of the Commanding Pow'r,

Thou then turn'd Papist as 'twas in an hour.

When Protestants got head, thou didst the same;

When Neuter N O L, thou promptly bore his frame.

Cathederal.

Why, must we not subject unto the Pow'rs?

We are not their Commanders, they are ours:

So that if they command, we must obey,

Tho Pa. Prel. Pres. or a compounded way;

The Mass-book, Comon-Pray'r-book, or else neither;

If so the King command, I'le observe either.

Jayle.

God's Worship never stood on such a pin

To turn with Man's breath either out or in.

God's Faithful Ones, in this case, did withstand

The things that mighty Kings did oft command;

And yet, as Kings, they ever them obeyed,

And for their peace and good devoutly prayed.

Cathederal.

This point, with others, hath been controverted.

What I hold, and what thou holdst, is asserted.

We will therefore appeal to him for tryal,

Who doth no falshood own, nor give denial

To any Truth. And now for a Conclusion,

I do conjure thee pray against Delusion.

Jayle.

That is my pray'r; but I'le not pray with thee

Till in the Truth we shall united be;

Which we may be, if we our selves deny,

And learn of God in due humility;

Which when thou dost in Truth, 'tis in my mind,

Not here, but in the Jayl, I shall thee find.

Cathederal.

[Page 76]

What! is the Jayl and Truth so near united?

This dreadful doctrine will make men affrighted,

And few will find the Truth; for if 't be so,

There's few to seek the Truth to Jayl will go.

Now fare thee wel, keep that place as thy treasure,

And I'le keep this, and here enjoy my pleasure.

Jayle.

Adi [...]u Cathederal! go take thy fill

Of Organ-Musick; And, sith 'tis God's will,

I'le back to that unpleasant Cell of mine,

Where some Truth's known, w ^ch else would never shine

In its bright splendor: Also there our God

Doth shew himself a Father by his Rod.

CHAP. VII.

The Arg.

The Jayl doth soberly reflect upon the Conference,

And several things to that effect having some reference.

MY Muse thou'rt now return'd into the 
Jayl,
And canst not with the 
Minster yet prevail
To bow her ear to Truth, that it might win
Her 
to the Antient Truth, and 
from Romes Sin.

Now sith in this place of disconsolation
None can deprive thy heart of meditation,
Let us reflect upon what sights w
 [...] have seen
In yonder 
Minster, who as some great Queen,
Doth seem to sit in joy, in pomp and pleasure,
With wealth & mirth, & other such like treasure.

But yet in this Reflection, let us give
Precedency to Christ's Church, which doth live
This day in Jayl
 [...], in holes and dens of Thieves,
VVhose life, though such, yet there is nought that grieves


[Page 77] A sinful Generation more, than that
Her being here's not wholly extirpate.

Lord, I have viewed thy most holy House,
Thy Church, as it at first erected was,
And with the beauty thereof I was moved
There to sit down, as th' place I chiefly loved.
In which Church I have seen my Saviour sweet,
Rise up and wash his poor Disciples feet.
There have I seen such as do minister,
Deny themselves of all things sinister.
There were thy Servants cl
 [...]d like other men;
Their Instruments of Musick were not Tin.
There have I seen thy Servants generally
Perform their Duty all in Charity.
There have I seen thy Spirit giving Graces,
Whereby each one were fitted for their places.
There have I seen those Graces exercised,
And none for doing so have been despised,
Nor persecuted; But each one required
To seek with choicest gifts to be inspired.
There did I see a holy Discipline,
The exercise whereof made 
Zion shine.
And many other precious things I saw,
In point of observation of God's Law.

And having heard the 
Minster laid great claim
Unto thy Churches Interest and Name;
And yet, by her most earnest procuration,
Some men she did surprize by captivation,
And lock't them up within my gates, because
They would not cease to keep thy Antient Laws.

At this I marvelled, and therefore went
To see what her pretence and practice meant:
For I suspected deeply by these doings,
Her feet were stray'd from 
Zions Antient goings;
Because from those men I could nothing gather,
That shew'd them guilty of what she would father


[Page 78] On them, to wit, 
that they were Peace-disturbers;
Wheras in truth 'twas cause they were 
Vicecurbers
Which caus'd them to be shut within my barrs,
Under pretence of Law, turn'd into snares.

Now when I came into the 
Minster, walking
I veiwed certain men which there were talking;
Gallants of 
all sorts they appear'd to be,
And seem'd to live in mirth and melodie.

On my right-hand there 'spide I a 
Convention,
From whence proceeded very hot contention
For Money-matters; Then I went to th' 
Quire,
Where I saw many men in black attire;
These took a little room one after other,
And hereupon I did a little hover
To see the period of that 
Conventicle,
Or-Private Meeting; staying there a little,
I saw their black all covered with white,
And some so drest 
they did me somewhat fright:
For they had things upon them of the shape
Of black Sheep-skins, w
ch hung down as the cape
Of Cloaks, save that they reached to their ham
 [...],
Where hung a black tail, like unto a Rams.
Some others had long shreds of black upon them,
Like Hanging-sleeves, which hung down al along
With cov'red Caps, such as I never saw (them,
'Mongst men that feared God, & kept his Law.
And some had 
red clothes girt about their 
shoulders
Which seemed very strange to some beholders.
And chiefly for, because the 
Protestants
So frequently against the 
Pope descants
With merry songs, because of such like dressings
As th' 
Papists use when they go to Mass-blessings.
Yet thus array'd, themselvs did now address them
Into the 
Quire, & pray'd the Lord to bless them.
And by and by I heard some Pipes resounding,
Unto the Singers Voic
 [...]s quite confounding.


[Page 79] At which indeed I stood as 'twere amazed,
And on these roaring Instruments I gazed;
As also on the Quire of Singing-Boyes,
Until my head was 'stonish'd with the noise:
For little else in truth could I retain,
And so I thought to tarry there 'twas vain.

Lord, this I speak to thee as not but knowing
How they behave 
themselvs; but whilst thus 
showing
Their 
strange deportments, I do oft propose
Ʋnto my self such Questions as those.

What if our Lord should come and view these men, 
1.
And hear their Musick, and demand of them,

Who 'twas commanded them thus to be drest,

And use those Pipes, when they came to be blest?
What Answer could they make? This I must say,
(Were my case theirs) I'd blush and run away.

If that be true (which some men do conjecture) 
2.

That John yet lives, and should come to their Lecture;

Could John 
suppose this Church was of his founding?

Or would he close with th' Pipes mellodious sounding?

Or bear a part i'th' Song which these men sing?

Or would he not, as one amazed, fling

Out of their Quire? Doubtless all wise men think
The last most likely, except those that wink
At that clear Light w
ch 
John hath set before him,
In 
Christs behalf, how men ought to adore him.

Imagine 
Peter should among them stand 
3.
In's Fishers coat, and there but take in hand
A Text to open; would not such a sight
Put these brave Gallants to a ghastly fright?
But were this Generation truly lighted,
They would see much more cause to be affrighted
At those who love to walk in Garments long,
As did the 
Pharisees, which us'd to wrong


[Page 80] The People of God's Word, and took the Key
Of Knowledg quite away, lest men should weigh
And ponder their Devices and Traditions,
And so discern their 
peccant Superstitions.

Admit a pious Christian should come 
4.
In Shepherds russit-garb into their Room,
And having of the Fathers free Donation
Receiv'd a proper gift of Exhortation;
Would not these 
Queristers strait thrust him thence
Should he his Gift but offer to dispense?
And for his Coat-sake. Truth would be dispised;
A trick by Satan heretofore devised.

Lord, see to what a pass poor mans inventions
Hath brought us, sith they serve but for preventi­ous
To us from exercising of our Talents,
Unless we be array'd like these brave Gallants.
Lord, at this door of man's Imaginations
Hath crept in many great Prevarications,
Under the specious name of 
Decency,
And honouring of thy Name more reverently.
But these pretences those ill fruits have born,
Mens wayes have got th' applause, and thine the scorn.
It is so at this day, O Lord behold it;
For men are grown too lofty to be told it,
Though they the bitter fruits thereof do feel,
And must feel more and more, until they reel
Into the ditch: For this, Lord, thou hast said
Shall be the end of such as void have made
Thy holy Word, that they their own Tradition
May here observe, though unto their perdition;
Unless it please thee by thy Gospel-sentence
To call them timely unto true Repentance.

FINIS.

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The prisoner against the prelate, or, A dialogue between the common goal [ie. gaol] and Cathedral of Lincoln wherein the true faith and Church of Christ are briefly discovered & vindicated ... / written by a prisoner of the baptised churches in Lincolnshire.

1662

The PROBLEME.

The Demonstration.

CHAP. I.

CHAP. II.

CHAP. III.

CHAP. IV.

CHAP. V.

CHAP. VI.

I. ARTICLE.

The Witness of Antiquity.

II. ARTICLE.

The Witness of Antiquity.

III. ARTICLE.

The witness of Antiquity.

IV. ARTICLE.

The test of Antiquity.

V. ARTICLE.

The rest of Antiquity.

VI. ARTICLE.

The test of Antiquity.

VII. ARTICLE.

The test of Antiquity.

VIII. ARTICLE.

The test of Antiquity.

IX. ARTICLE.

The test of Antiquity.

X. ARTICLE.

The test of Antiquity.

XI. ARTICLE.

The test of Antiquity.

XII. ARTICLE.

The test of Antiquity.

XIII. Article.

The test of Antiquity.

XIV. Article.

The test of Antiquity.

XV. Article.

The test of Antiquity.

XVI. Article.

The test of Antiquity.

XVII. Article.

The test of Antiquity.

XVIII. Article.

The test of Antiquity.

XIX. Article.

The test of Antiquity.

XX. Article.

The test of Antiquity.

XXI. Article.

The test of Antiquity.

XXII. Article.

The test of Antiquity.

XXIII. Article.

The test of Antiquity.

XXIV. Article.

The test of Antiquity.

XXV. Article.

The test of Antiquity.

CHAP. VII.