A DIALOGUE: BETWEEN ORTHODOX a ROYALIST, AND CACODAEMON one Popishly affected.

WEll met (Sir) a Saying of yours I have very often thought of.

‘What is that (Sir) I beseech you?’

That the Papists are, and always were the Kings best Sub­jects.

‘I am still of that Opinion.’

If you be so, I am desirous (if your leisure will permit) that Systeme of yours may be the Subject of our pre­sent Discourse; For the truth is, I am quite of a contrary Opi­nion; this is an assured truth, one of us two is out of the way; and good Manners, as well as Charity and good Conscience, commands us to bring the Knight Errant into the right way; I am ready to hear your Argument, and I do hope the like pati­ence for mine.

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‘Content, for I am very confident I am in the right and do hope with little trouble to bring you over to be of my Opinion’

Pray, be pleased to begin.

‘I am ready; and thus I begin. Who, I pray, were firmest for the late King during his Wars with the Long Par­liament, were not the Papists? This is certain, none of them were of the Parliaments Party; but many thousand of Prote­stants sought against, and at the last brought His Sacred Head to the Block, and so that Holy Martyr was put to Death by His Protestant Subjects. Besides that, Who were they that Pre­served Our present Sovereign in His greatest Hardships, in His greatest Extremities, were they not the Papists? And none of any Belief whatsoever, I am sure, are so ready as they to serve Him now, and to Sacrifice their Lives and Fortunes for Him.’

I percieve by your silence now, that you expect my Answer.

‘I do, but not a Confutation, for what I have said, is an Invincible and Infallible Truth.’

I hope to make you shortly of another Opinion; In the first place I will lay down for an Infallible Truth, That never any Protestant [i. e a Son of the Church of England] did ever his draw Sword against the King, or any other their Sove­reign Prince, since the Reformation, begun by King Henry the Eighth.

‘Oh Moxstrum Horrendum! Sure you do not be­lieve what you say.’

Yes, and I'le prove what I say, thus; That the late Rebels, Cromwel (your Friend President Bradshaw) and the rest of those that were of their Party, were not Protestants (that is, they were not Sons of the Church of England) you may as well call those People Royalists, as Protestants, or Sons of the Church of England; Did they not overthrow the Hie­rarchy of the Church, as well as Monarchy? How then can you call them Protestants? When indeed they do not deserve (with­out a great deal of Charity) the name of Men, so Monstrous were their Actions? Thus much to vindicate Protestants, whose Tenet is this, That if their Sovereign were a Tyrant, and a Turk [Page 3] (which our Sovereign is far from, I thank God) yet in such a case we allow of no other Arms, than what the Primitive Chri­stians did use against their Persecutors, that is, Prayers and Tears.

‘Thus far I confess you have well proved, that Pro­testants in a strict sense so called (i. e. true Sons of the Church of England) may be very good Subjects, and that if they deviate from their Loyalty to their Sovereign, it is not from any ill Principle in their Religion, which they suck in with their Milk; and that such deviations do rather proceed from the ill Principles of Sin, and frailties of humane Nature; All this I acknowledge for a great Truth; but what have you to say against Papists, that they should not be as good Subjects, as any the best Protestants in the World?’

In a word, the Rebellion of Ireland, accompanied with an universal Massacre, without distinction of all Ages and Sexes, which as it preceded the Rebellion of England, so did it also exceed it in Inhumanity and Bloodshed, and for ought I know might occasion the English Rebellion.

‘I did expect no less from you, who are so great an assertor of the Protestants, so much an adversary to the Papists, and so Loyal to the Prince; but all this while I hear nothing of any Principle in the Popish Religion, that should lead them into such horrid actions, which I do by no means justifie.’

Have patience, and I shall give enough of that, you know what our Saviour said, No man can serve two Masters, which possibly might be a Prophecy of the Popes Sovereignty over the Kings and Potentates of the World; How can the Pa­pists serve God, Honour the King, (which two are but one in reality) and Serve, Worship, and Obey the Pope? for he is (as our Saviour says) the other Master.

‘Well enough; for the Pope (as the Papists tell me) pretends to no other Sovereignty but in Spiritualibus.’

In Temporalibus also I assure you, and yet it is a wonder how an Opinion so Diametrically opposite to the Truth of God, delivered in the Scriptures, and the Doctrine of the Antients, both Councils and Fathers, should ever get up among such as profess Christianity; And surely, were not the Interests of the Court of Rome in greater esteem, than the Truths of the [Page 4] Gospel, and the Peace of the Catholick Church, it were not possible that your Popes should be so presumptuous as to assume this Power, or the Doctors of Rome so impudent, as to assert it. For to inlarge a little on this particular, of such concernment to the peace of the Church, and all Christendom. It is not St. Peter's Exhortation, 1 Pet. 2.13. Submit your selves to every Ordinance of Man, for the Lords sake; to the King, as Supreme! and St. Paul is of the same mind, Rom. 13.1. Let every Soul be subject to the higher Powers; and v. 5. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for Conscience sake; and St. Chrysostom's gloss upon the Text answers all your pretences against this Truth. Etiamsi Apostolus sis, &c. Although you be an Apostle, or an Evangelist, or a Prophet, yet you must be subject; And such was St. Paul's own practice, He submits him­self to the judgement of Felix, Acts 24, and to Festus; and from him (Acts 25) makes his appeal to Caesar, Appellatio autem non nisi ad legitimum fit judicem. And this incontrollable Power did the Primitive Christians acknowledge in their Empe­rours, and submit to it; though Heathens, Hereticks, and Per­secutors. Athanasius being unjustly banished from Alexandria where he was Bishop, by Constantius, and afterwards falsly ac­cused of Disobedience to his Decree, makes this mild defence to him though an Arrian and a Persecutor [Epist. ad Constantium] Nequaquam restiti mandat is tuae Pietatis, &c. I no way resisted the Commands of your Piety; neither shall I ever endeavour to enter into Alexandria, till your Pietie give me leave, And thus St. Augustin. in Psal. 128. Apostata erat Julianus, iniquus, Idololatra; mil [...]tes tamen Christiani servierunt Impera­tori, &c. Julian was an Apostate, a wicked Man, an Idolater; yet the Christians obeyed him: when it concerns the cause of Christ, then indeed they acknowledeged Him only, that was in Heaven; but when the Emperor commanded other things, they obeyed him. I may also ask by what Law the Pope can chal­lenge this Power to himself, to dispose of the Temporal Affairs or Estates of Princes; Not by any humane Law: for the Prince is above the coactive or coercive Power of humane Laws, being solo Deo minor: If by Divine Law, let him shew any Text of Scripture, or Tradition of the Apostle; surely they are both against it; The weapons of our Warfar saith the Apostle [2 Cor. [Page 5] 10] are not carnal, but Spiritual; and our Saviour determins against it, Mat. 20.25, 26. The Princes of the Gentiles exercise Dominion and Authority over them; but it shall not be so among you; Hence St. Hierom [Epist. 3. ad Heliodor.] speaking of the King and the Bishop, Ille nolentibus praest, hic volentibus. The King hath Power over the refractory and disobedient; the Bishop over such as are willing to obey him; His Power compulsory, the Bishops but precarious. And thus the second General Ni­cene Council, Acts 3. discoursing of the Regal and Sacerdotal Power, speaks to the same purpose, Sacerdos Caelestia curat; Rex autem legibus aequis & justis, omnia quae in terris fiunt, pro­curat; The Priest takes care for what may bring us to Heaven; The King by just and equitable Laws orders all Affairs in Earth. And this is answerable to the terms & boundaries of both powers which we see appointed by Jehosaphat [2 Chron. 19.11.] Ana­nias the chief Priest is over you in all matters of the Lord, and Zebadiah the Ruler [or Prince] for all the Kings matters: If therefore the King be over all, and orders all Temporal Affairs by a supereminent and incoercible Authority, none may depose him from, or deprive him of his Temporals, either directly or indirectly, much less the Church or Pope whose Power is meerly Spiritual; and therefore the behaviours of your Popes have been Rebellious and Scandalous against Reason and Religion, against the Doctrine of the Scriptures, and the Practice of the Antient Christians, especially since Gregory the 7th. who seems to have been the first assertor and practicant in this intolerable presum­ption, not only Excommunicating (though that be more than St. August. will allow him,) when he tells us, nec Rex, nec Multitudo Excommunicandi sunt [ut refert Glass in Mat. 13.] but also dethroning and deposing the Emperour Henry the 4th. whereof he thus complains; Ignominiam sustineo ante inaudi­tam; I suffer a disgrace never before heard of Vide Albertum Stadiensem ad Annum 1106.

Innocent the Third makes Otho (although a Rebel to his Prince) Emperour, and afterwards deposeth him, not because a Rebel, but because unprofitable to himself. Honorius the Third Excommunicates Frederick the Second, and deposeth him, which Sentence Gregory the Ninth, confirms, Innocent the 4th also. Of the Pride and cruelty of the Popes against this Em­perour [Page 6] Frederick; the King of France thus complained (as Mat. Paris tells the story in Hen. 3.) Quo Spiritu, vel ausu temerario Papa. With what Spirit, with what daring rashness did the Pope disinherit, and depose from his Imperial dignity this wor­thy Prince, than whom a greater is not found among Christians, nor yet his equal, &c. de transgressionibus ejus. Concerning his Faults objected, no credit is to be given to his Enemies, a­mong whom the Pope is known to be principal: To himself he was always an harmless and good neighbour, neither have we ever found him faulty in his fidelity concerning Secular Affairs, or the Catholick Faith: We know he was a gallant Soldier in the Holy War, and boldly exposed himself to all dangers both by Sea and Land; I find not so much Religion in the Pope, who when he ought to have promoted his Interests, and have defended him when he was abroad Fighting Gods Battels, did yet in his absence wickedly endeavour to supplant and destroy him.

Boniface the Eighth threatens to depose Philip King of France, absolving his Subjects from their Allegiance, and afterwards subjects him and his Kingdom to Albert the Emperour.

John 23d excommunicates Ludovicus Bavarus, Benedict the 12th confirms it, and then Clement the 6th deposeth him.

I shall not trouble you with any more particulars, although I might further tell you of the Kingdom of Navar given from the French to the King of Spain by the Pope, of Our own Kingdoms of England and Ireland made feodatary to the Popes, sometimes transferred to the Spaniard, other while to the French; of se­verall of our Kings inthralled, our Nation involved in bloody Wars by these Papal Usurpations: But I shall conclude with a Copy of the Grant made by Pope Alexander the 6th (Father to Caesar Borgia) of the Indies to Ferdinando King of Spain, and his Heirs for ever, wherein you may read at large the pride of the Popes in the Power they pretend to.

‘I protest you astonish me, I pray be pleased to read it over.’

I am ready so to do; Now I begin.

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‘You have made me more than half a Christian;This Arch-Bishop of Spa­lato, did leave the Church of Rome, and came over to us; but (upon great promises of Worldly pre­ferments) re­turned back to his former er­rors, like a Dog to his vo­mit, or like a Sow that is washed, to her wallowing in the mire; yet notwithstand­ing all this, and fair promise of fair usage, he was burnt by them for an Heretick. for now I percieve that they (I mean the Papists) yield in some things to us, till they get us in their clutches, and then with them not to believe all, (even all their Fopperies) is to believe nothing at all; so that in such a case (with the Arch-Bishop of Spalato) they will persecute one with Fire and Sword, if in the least they seem to retract; if therefore you have any thing to say to confirm me in my new-taken resolutions, pray pro­ceed; for I am ready to hear you.’

In obedience Sir to your so lawful desires, I am ready to give you the satisfaction you now require; to add therefore to what I have already urged, I shall a little insist upon one par­ticular, in the beginning of our discourse, and that is, where you plead so much, that no Papist ever was against the Late, or Our present King; You are (Sir) now convinced, as you have already declared; what therefore I now say, is rather to Con­firm, than Confute you, because you are now one of us. And thus I begin.

The Rebellion of the Irish is already mentioned, therefore no more of that; But I shall give you this further Instance: upon His Majesties Restauration, it was observed, that when the Army (formerly Rebellious) were injoined to take the Oaths of Supremacy and Allegiance, that in every Troop of Horse, and Foot-Company, one Man, or more did refuse to take those Oaths; at first that refusal, was attributed to the Republicarian or Anti-Monarchical humour, and disposition; but upon further inquiry and disquisition, it was found out, that those persons so refusing to Swear, were Papists, and more than that Roman Priests. And this leads me to another Story, I concieve proper to relate unto you, and that is concerning a supposed Quaker, under the habit of a Cobler, that was a Tub-Preacher; famous he was a long time during the Rebellion, but by some that had been Travellers in Popish Countries, was detected to be a Ro­mish Priest, and thereupon was forced to flie.

‘Sir, I thank you for this addition, this puts me in mind of something of this nature, which (I have heard) was discovered by Famous Dr. Hammond, (which as I take it) was thus: This Worthy Divine was reading a piece of Chrysostome in a Booksellers Shop, two Men, in the habit of Soldiers, (be­ing [Page 14] in the Shop,) one of them looks over the Doctors shoulder into that Book, and turns the Greek into English, with as much ease as if he had read English; the Doctor being a little sur­prised, turns about to the Translator, saying, I did not expect to see such a Scholar in that habit; (Sir, says the seeming Soldier or Fanatick) you are mistaken, for I am no Scholar; 'tis true I understand all Languages, but that is by the gift of the Spirit, not attaind unto by Industry, or Humane Learning. Hereupon the Doctor tries him in all Learned Languages, and finds his Soldier exact in all of them; at last he tries him in Welsh, and there the Spirit of Darkness forsakes his Disciple; and leaves him in the dark it seems; for that time (at least) the Church of Rome (for this Militant Gent. was a Roman Priest) wanted a Miracle to understand Welsh, for the support of his Doctrine; so Truth overcame a Lie.’

I have heard that Story you now relate; I am glad to see things of this nature so well imprinted in your memory, I shall ever account our present meeting happy, since it hath wrought so good an effect upon you; What our Saviour enjoined St. Peter upon his Conversion, every person so Converted is to imitate; When thou art converted, strengthen thy Brethren, is Our Saviours Precept, and to our Powers we are obliged to ob­serve it. And therefore now being disabused your self, I make no doubt but you will disabuse others; and so (Noble Convert) fare you well for this time.

‘Pray (Sir) let's not part yet, but give me leave to ask you some Questions as concerning the Sacrament, and some other things, whereby we may confirm one another in the right Orthodox way.’

I am willing to wait your own leisure, and give you what satisfaction I can; and being you are pleased to mention the Sacrament, I will relate to you a Story I met withal lately in a Book of Travails, writ by one who had been a Romish Priest; In short, his words are these. — One day as I was say­ing Mass after the Consecration of the Bread, being with my Eyes shut at the Mental Prayer, (which the Church of Rome calls her Memento for the Dead) there came from behind the Altar a Mouse, which coming about, came to the very Bread or Wafer-God of the Papists, and taking it in his Mouth, ran [Page 15] away with it, not being percieved by any of the People who were at Mass, for that the Altar was high, and the People below it; but as soon as I opened my Eyes to go on with my Mass, and perceived my God stoln away, I looked about the Altar, and saw the Mouse running away with it, which on a sudden did so stupify me, that I knew not well what to do or say; I thought if I should take no notice of the mischance, and any body else should, I might be questioned by the Inquisition; but if I should call to the People to look for the Sacrament, I might be but chidden and rebuked for my carelesness, which I thought might be more easily born, than the rigour of the Inquisition; where­upon I turn'd my self to the People, and call'd them to the Altar, and told them plainly, that whilst I was in my Memento Pray­ers and Meditations, a Mouse had carryed away the Sacra­ment, and that I knew not what to do, unless they would help me to find it out again; the People called a Priest that was at hand, who presently brought in more of his Coat, and as if [...]heir God by this time had been eaten up, they presently prepare [...]o find out the Thief, as if they would eat up the Mouse, that had so assaulted and abused their God; They lighted Candles and Torches to find out the Malefactor, in his secret and hidden places of the Wall, and after much searching and enquiry for [...]he Sacrilegious beast, they found at last in a hole of the Wall, [...]he Sacrament half eaten up, which with great joy they took [...]ut, and as if the Ark had been brought again, from the Phili­ [...]ines to the Israelites, so they rejoyced for their new found God, whom with many Lights of Candles and Torches, with joyful [...]nd solemn Musick, they carryed about the Church in Proces­ [...]on; my self upon my knees shaked and quivered, for what [...]ight befall me, expecting my Doom and Judgement; and as [...]he Sacrament pass'd by me, I observed the marks and signs of [...]he Teeth of the Mouse, as they are to be seen in a piece of [...]heese gnawn and eaten by it. This struck me into such a ter­ [...]ur, that I called to my best Memory all Philospophy concern­ [...]g Substance and Accident, and resolved within my self, that [...]hat I saw gnawn, was not an Accident, but some Real Sub­ [...]ance, eaten and devoured by that Vermin which certainly was [...]d and nourished, by what it had eaten. Philosophy well teacheth, [...]sbstantia cibi (non accidentis) convertitur in substantiam alici; [Page 16] The Substance, (not the Accident of the food or meat) is con­verted and turned into the Substance of the thing fed by it and alimented; Now here I know that this Mouse had fed upon some Substance, or else how could the marks of the Teeth so plainly appear? But no Papist will be willing to answer, that it fed upon the Substance of Christs Body; ergo, by good con­sequence it follows, that it fed upon the Substance of Bread; [and so Transubstantiation here in my judgement was confuted by a Mouse,] which mean and base Creature God chose to con­vince me of my former error, and made me now resolve, upon what many years before I had doubted, that certainly the Point of Transubstantiation taught by the Church of Rome, is most Damnable and Erroneous; For besides what before I have ob­served, it contradicts that Philosophical Axiom, teaching that duo contradictoria non possunt simul, & semel, de eodem verificari, two contradictories cannot at once and at the self same time, be said and verified of the same thing; but here it was so: for here (in Romes Judgement and Opinon) Christs Body was gnawn and eaten, and at the same time the same Body in another place, and upon another Altar, in the hands of another Priest, was not eaten and gnawn; therefore here are two contradicto­ries verified of the same Body of Christ, viz. it was eaten and gnawn, and it was not eaten and gnawn. These Impressions at that time were so great in me, that I resolved within my self, that Bread really and truly was eaten upon the Altar, and by no means Christs Glorious Body which is in Heaven [the Heavens must contain him (as it is in the New Testament) till his last coming,] and cannot be on Earth, subject to the hunger and violence of a Creature.

The same Author upon the finding in a Cave a Heathen Image, worshipped by the Idolatrous Indians for a God, relates this Story.

In Mexico were many of the chief of that place outwardly very fair tongued, liberal and very free handed to the Church, much devoted to the Saints, great Feasters on their days, and yet in secret great Idolaters; but it pleased God to make me his Instrument to discover and bring to light the secrecy of their hid­den works of Darkness, which it seems the privacy of a thick Wood, and Mountain, had for many years hid from the Eyes [Page 17] of the World; Some of these being in the company of better Christians, drinking hard of their Drink called [Chica] boasting of their God, saying, that he had Preached unto them better than I could Preach; Nay that He had plainly tould them, that they should not believe any thing that I Preached of Christ, but follow the Old way of their Forefathers, who Worshiped their God aright; but now by the Example of the Spaniards they were deluded, and brought to Worship a false God: The other Christians hearing this, began to wonder, and inquire of them where that God was, and with much ado, promising to follow their ways, and their Gods, got out of them, the Place, and Mountain where they might find him; though this in their Cups were agreed upon, yet in soberness thought better upon what they had promised, slighted what before in drinking they heard; But this was not kept so close, but that it came to the Ears of a Spaniard in the Valley, who finding himself touched in Con­science, came to Mexico to Me, and tould Me what he heard, that some Indians of that Town followed an Idol, and boasted that he had Preached unto them against my Doctrine, and for the ways of the former Heathens. I thanked God that he was pleased to undermine the secret works of Satan, and desired the Spaninrd to tell me by whom he came to know of this; He told me the Indians Name from whom he had it, and that the said Indian was afraid to discover the Indians, and to tell me of it; I sent for the Indian, who confessed unto me before the Spaniard, that he had heard such a thing, but knew that if he did discover the Indians, They, with the power of the Devil would do him much harm; I told him, if he were a true Christian, he ought to fight against the Devil, and not to fear him who could do him no harm, if God were with him, and he closed by Faith with Christ; and that the Discovery of that Idol, might be a means for the Converting of the Idolaters, when they shall see the small power of their God against the true God of the Christians; I told him plainly, that if he did not tell me who the Indians were, and where the Idol was, that I would have him to Guatalema, and there make him discover what he knew: Here the Indian began to tremble, and told me the Fuentes had boasted of such an Idol, whom they called their God, and gave some signs of a Fountain, and a Pine-tree at the mouth of a Cave in such a Mountatn; I [Page 18] asked him if he knew the place, or what kind of Idol it was; he told me that he often had been in that Mountain, where he had seen two or three Springs of Water, but never was in any Cave. I asked him if he would go with me, and help me to find it out; He refused still, fearing the Idolaters, and wished me not to go, for fear if they should be there, they might kill me, rather than be discovered: I answered him, that I would carry with me such a Guard, as should be able to defend against them, and my Faith in the true living God, would secure me from the false God; I resolved therefore, with the Spaniard, to go to search out the Cave the next day, and to carry with me three or four Spaniards, and my Blackmore Miguel Dalva; And that Indian; I told him I could not suffer him to go home to his House that day, for fear he should discover in the Town my design and purpose, and so we might be prevented by the Idolaters, who certainly that night would take away their Idol. The Indian still refused, till I threat­ned to send for the Officers of Justice, and to secure his person; with this he yielded, and that he might have no discourse with any body in the Town, nor with the Servants of my House, I desired the Spaniard to take him home to his House, and to keep him there close that day and night, promising to be with him next morning; that day I rid to Pinola for the Blackmore Mi­guel Dalva, and brought him to Mexico with me, not telling him what my intent was; I went also to four neighbouring Spa­niards, desiring them to be in readiness the next morning, to go a little way with me, for the Service of God, and to meet me at such a neighbours House; and that if they would bring their Fowling-Pieces, we might chance to find some sport where we went, and as for provision of Wine and Meat, I would pro­vide sufficiently: They promised to go with me, thinking that although I told them it was for the Service of God, my purpose only was to hunt after some wild Deer in the Mountains; I was glad they Construed my Action that way, and so went home, and provided that night a good Gammon of Bacon, some Fowls rosted, cold, and other boyled, well Pepper'd and Salted for the next days work; Where I had appointed my Indian to be kept, I met with rest of my company, and from thence we went toge­ther to the place of the Idolaters Worshiping, which was some six Miles from Mexico, towards the Town of St. John Sacate Sa­catepeques; [Page 19] when we came into the Wood, we presently met a deep Barranca, or Bottom, where was a Running, which en­couraged us to make a diligent Search, but nothing could be found; from thence we ascended up out of the Barranca, and found (after much time spent) a Spring of Water, and look'd carefully about it, but could find no Cave: Thus in vain we searched till the Evening, and fearing least we might lose our way, and Our selves, if the Night overtook us; My Friends began to speak of returning homewards, but I considering that as yet we had not gone over one half part of the Wood; and to go home, and come again, might make us to be noted, and spoken of; We thought it our best course to take up our lodge­ing that Night in the Wood, and in that Bottom which we first searched, where was good Water for to drink, Chocalatte, and warm lying under the Trees, and so in the Morning to make our second search. The company was very willing to yield unto it, and the calm Night favoured our good Intentions. We made a Fire for our Chocolatte, and supped exceeding well of our cold Meat, and spent most part of the night in merry discourse, having a watchful Eye over our Indian, least he should give us the slip, and committing him to the charge of Miguel Dalva, in the Morning we Prayed unto God, beseeching to guide us that day in the work we went about, and to discover unto us the Cave of Darkness and Iniquity, where lay hid the Instru­ment of Satan, that so by his discovery, glory might be given unto our true God, and shame and punishment brought upon his Enemies; We entred again into the thick Wood up a steepy Hill, and having searched all the South side of it, we went on to the North side, where we found another deep descent, which we began to walk down, looking on every side, and not in vain, for almost half a Mile from the top, we found some Marks of a way that had been used and trodden, which we followed till we came to another Spring of Water; We searched narrowly about it, and found some pieces of Earthen Dishes and Pots, and one piece of a Chafing-dish, such as the Indians use to burn Frankincense in, in the Church before their Saints; We verily imagined that these were pieces of some Instruments wherewith the Idolaters performed their duty unto their Idol, and we were the more comforted, for that we knew the Earthen Ware had been made [Page 20] in Mexico, the Pine-tree which immediatly we discovered, con­firm'd our hopes; when we came unto it, we made very little more search, for near at hand was the Cave which was dark within, but light at the Mouth, where we found more Earthen Ware with Ashes in them, which assured us of some Frankincense that had been burnt; We knew not how far the Cave might reach within; nor what might be in it; and there­fore with a Flint we struck Fire, and lighted a couple of Candles, and went in, at the entring it was broad, and went a little for­ward; but when we were in, we found it turn on the left hand towards the Mountain, and not far; for within two Rods we sound the Idol standing upon a low Stool, covered with a Linen Cloth; the Substance of it was Wood, black, shining like Jet, as if it had been parched or smoaked; the Form was of a Mans Head unto the shoulders, without either Beard or Mustachio's, his Look was grim, with a wrinkled Forhead, and broad start­ling Eyes; We feared not his frowning look, but presently seized upon him; and as we lifted him up, we found under him some single Rials which his favourites had offered unto him, which made us search more diligently the Cave, and it was not amiss, for upon the ground we found more single Rials, some Plantines, and other Fruits, Wax Candles half burn'd, pots of Maize, one little one of Honey, little Dishes wherein Frankin­cense had been burn'd, whereby I percieved the Idolaters and Christians both agree in their Offerings; and had I not been in­formed that they called this their Idol God, I could have blamed them no more than the rest of the Towns, who Worship, kneel before, and offer such Offerings to their Saints made of Wood, and some no handsomer than was this Idol, which I expected might have been some Beasts shape; but being the shape and form of a Man, they might have named him by the name of some Saint, and so some way might have excused themselves, which they could not do, nor would they do it; in that they persisted in this Errour, that he was their God, and had spoken, and Preached unto them; and being afterwards asked by me, whe­ther it were the Picture of any Saint, such as were in Mexico, and other Churches; they answered no, but that he was above all the Saints in the Country. We were very joyful to see that we had not spent our time in vain, we cut down boughs of [Page 21] Trees, and filled the Cave with them, and stopt the Mouth of it up, and came away, making the Indian that went with us carry the Idol on his back, wrapped up in Cloths that it might not be seen or perceived as we went, I thought it fit to delay the time till night, and then to enter into Mexico, that the In­dians might see nothing; so I staid at one of the Spaniards Houses till it were late, and desired him to warn from me all the Spaniards thereabouts to be at Mexico Church the next Sab­bath (fearing least the Idolaters might be many, and rise up against me) that I had somewhat to say to them and their Black­mores, concerning their Sodalities, for I would not have them know of the Idol, till they heard of it, and saw it in the Church, lest it should come to the Indians hearing, and so the Idolaters might absent themselves: At night I took my Indian, and Mi­guel Dalva with me, and went home, and shutting up the Idol in a Chest till the next Sabbath; I dismiss'd the Indian, charging him to say nothing, for he knew if he did, what harm might come to him from the Idolaters; and I knew few words would now suf­fice for that he feared himself, if it should be known that he had been with me; I kept Miguel Dalva with me, who was de­sirous to see the end of the business, and prepared my self a­gainst the next Sabbath, to Preach upon 3 v. of the 20 Chap. of Exodus, Thou shalt have none other gods before Me; though it were a Text nothing belonging to the Gospel of the day, from whence commonly, in the Church of Rome, the Texts, and Subjects, and Sermons are deducted; but I judged the Text most seasonable for the present occasion. On the Sabbath-day in the morning, when the Pulpit was made ready, by him that had care of the Church and Altars, I caused Miguel Dalva to carry under his Cloak the Idol, and to leave it in the Pulpit; on the ground, that it might not be seen, till such time as I should think fit in my Sermon to produce it, and to watch about the Church till the Congregation came in, that none might see it, or take it away. Never was there a greater resort from abroad to that Church, than that day of Spaniards and Black-Moors, who by the warning I sent unto them, expected some great matter from me: and of the Town very few were absent: The Fuentes, and all the rest that were suspected to be that Idols Favourites (little thinking that their God was [Page 22] brought from his Cave, and now lay hid in the Pulpit to shame them) came also to the Church. I commanded Miguel Dalva to be himself near the Pulpit, and to warn those Spaniards that knew the business, and some more Black-Moors his friends, to be also near the Pulpit-stairs.

Thus, Mass being ended, I went up to Preach; when I re­hearsed the words of my Text, I perceived both Spaniards and Indians began to look one upon another, as not being used to Sermons out of the Old Testament: I went on laying open this Command of God, for having no other gods before him, so that the Doctrine might seem to convince all that were there present, as well Saint-Worshippers as indeed that Idols Wor­shippers, if the cause of my Preaching upon that Subject had not diverted their eyes from themselves, to behold their own guiltiness of Idolatry, and to look only upon those who wor­shipped a piece of wood for a god, and not as they did for a Saint (which yet in my judgment are much alike.) After I had spoken what I thought fit, concerning that horrible Sin, and shewed that no Creature could have the power of God (who was the Creator of all things) neither could do good or harm without the true living Gods Commission, especially in­animate Creatures, as Stocks and Stones, who by the hand and workmanship of man might have eyes, and yet were dead Idols, and see not; might have ears and not hear, might have mouths and not speak, might have hands and not work, nor help and defend with them such as worshipped them, and bow­ed down unto them. Thus having half finished my Sermon, I bowed my self down in the Pulpit, and lifted up the black, grim and staring Divel, and placed that Dagon on one side of the Pulpit, with my eyes fixed upon some of the Fuentes, and others, who I perceived changed their colours, blush'd and were sore troubled, looking one upon another: I desired the Congre­gation to behold what a god was worshipped by some of them, and all to take notice of him, if any knew what part of the Earth was the Dominion of this god, or from whence he came, I told them that some had boasted that this piece of wood had spoken, and preached against what I had taught of Christ, and that therefore he was worshipped by them for a god, and they had offered Mony, Hony, and of the Fruits of the Earth [Page 23] unto him, and burnt Frankincense before him, in a secret and hidden Cave under the earth, shewing thereby that they were ashamed to own him publikely; and that he lurking in the dark­ness of the earth, shewed certainly that he belonged to the Prince of Darkness: I challeng'd him there in publike to speak for himself, or else by his silence to shame and confound all his Worshippers; I shewed them how being but wood he had been made and fashioned by the hands of Man, and therefore was but a dead Idol. I spent a great deal of time arguing with him, and defying Sathan who had used him as his Instrument, daring the Divel himself to take him from that place which I had confined him to, if he could; to shew what little power he or Sathan had against my Faith in Christ; after much argu­ing and reasoning according to the shallow capacity of the Indians there present, I told them that if their god had power to deliver him from that execution which I had intended against him (which was there publikely to have him cut in pieces and burnt) they should not believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ; but if they saw no power in him against me, the weakest In­strument of the true living God, then I beseeched them to be converted unto that true God, who Created all things, and to embrace Salvation by his Son, the only Mediator and Savi­our Jesus Christ, and to renounce and abjure from that time all Heathenish Idolatry of their Fore-fathers, assuring them for what was past I would intercede for them, and secure them from what punishment might be inflicted upon them by the President and Bishop; and if they would come to me I would spend my best endevours, for the helping and furthering of them in the way of Christianity.

And thus concluding without naming any person, I went down out of the Pulpit, and caused the Idol to be brought after me, and sending for an Axe, and for two or three great pans of Coals, I commanded him to be hewen in very small pieces, and to be cast in the fire, and burnt before all the People in the midst of the Church: The Spaniards cryed out joyfully, Victor, Victor; and others repeated, Gloria à nostro Dios, Glory to our God: The Idolators held their peace and spake not then a word, but afterwards they acted most spitefully against me, and conspired day and night to get me at some advantage and [Page 24] to kill me; I writ to the President of Guatalema, informing of what I had done, and to the Bishop (as an Inquisitor to whom such cases belong) to be informed from him what course I should take with the Indians, who were but in part yet discovered unto me, and those only by the relation of one Indian; from both I received great thanks, for my pains in searching the Mountain, and finding out the Idol, and for my zeal in burning of it. And as touching the Indian Idolaters, their counsel to me was, that I should further enquire after the rest, and discover as many as I could, and endeavour to convert them to the knowledge of the true God, by fair and sweet means, shewing pity unto them for their great blindness, and promising them upon their repentance pardon from the Inquisi­tion, which, considering them to be but new Plants, useth not such rigour with them as it useth with the Spaniards, if they shall fall into such horrible Sins: This advice I followed, and sent privately for the Fuentes to my Chamber, and told them how merciful the Inquisition was unto them, expecting their conversion and amendment; they seemed somewhat stubborn and angry for that I had burned that God, whom not only they, but many others in the Town, and also in the Town of St. John Sacatepeques, did worship; I used reasons to perswade them, no honour was due to it, as unto a God. But one of them boldly replyed, That they that knew it was a piece of wood, and of it self could not speak, but seeing it had spoken (as they were all wit­nesses) this was a miracle whereby they ought to be guided, and they did verily believe that God was in that piece of wood, which since the speech made by it was more than ordinary wood, having God himself in it, and therefore deserved more Offerings and A­doration than those Saints in the Church, who did never speak unto the People. I told them that the Divel rather had formed that speech (if any they had heard) for to deceive their Souls, and lead them to hell; which they might easily percieve, from the Doctrine which I was informed he had preached against Christ, the only begotten Son of God, whom the Father loveth, and in whom he is well pleased, and against whom he certainly would not speak in that Idol. Another answered boldly, Our Forefathers never knew what Christ was, until the Spani­ard came into the Countrey, but they knew there were gods, and [Page 25] did worship them, and did sacrifice unto them, and for ought they knew, this god of theirs belonged in old times to their Fore­fathers, and theirs was the Old Religion, and Christians were Hereticks and Innovaters.

And thus (Sir) you see those same Arguments made use of by these Heathens, which the Champions of the Church of Rome take up against the Protestant Religion: For do they not call it an Innovation? Do they not, with these Heathens, plead Antiquity? Do they not call us Innovaters, as these Heathens do the Spaniards; and with them again plead the Religion of their Forefathers; and the Papists bestow the same Epithetes upon King Henry the Eighth, King Edward the Sixth, Luther, Calvin, and other Reformers from the errours of the Church of Rome? You see (Sir) again how these Idolaters in pleading for their Idol, plead, just as Papists do for worshipping of Saints, which makes it impossible for a Papist to confute an Idola­ter: As Popery does also by this means prevent the conversion of the Jews, who, however in former Ages much given to Idola­try, are now the greatest Sticklers against it of any People un­der Heaven.

‘Sir, I give you many thanks for these two Stories, I find my self much edified by them: The truth is, when you and I first met, I did not expect what I now find, and must confess to you two great Truths; the first, that I was inclining you know where, i. e. to Popery; the second, that your di­scourses have made me as firm a Protestant, as your self.’

I give God thanks with all my heart for this good progress; it shall be my prayer that you may be happy both here and hereafter. Shall we now part?

‘With your good leave (Sir) let us continue a while together, for if I may not be too troublesom to you, I would let you know, what I heard urged by a learned Papist out of the Psalms, to maintain their Doctrine of Merit and Intercession by Saints to God. Will you give leave, Sir? For else I should not dare to proceed.’

With all my heart (Sir) I pray you go on.

‘The 1 verse of the 132 Psalm was quoted, the words are these (Lord remember David and all his troubles.) as also the 10 verse of the same Psalm (For thy servand Da­vid's sake turn not away the presence of thine Anointed.) He [Page 26] said this Psalm was composed after the Death of King David, and therefore concludes, that here the Prophet is made an Intercessor to God: I beg therefore your thoughts, as to this particular.’

You shall be obeyed, and do conceive it no difficult matter to answer it; and thus I begin, In the first place, I know nothing to the contrary, but that this Psalm was composed by King David himself, and though this might serve for an answer, yet for the present we will suppose some body else was Author of it after the Death of King David.

All a long in the Old Testament, we meet with many Pro­mises for future Times and Ages; the first Promise was to Adam, immediately after his fatal Lapse, where the Messiah was first of all promised, and so from time to time, as the Church of God was in any affliction, it was supported by Pro­mises. It would be too long to insert all those Promises here; whoever has an inclination to be well acquainted with those Promises of God to his Church, let him be pleased to read the Old Testament, for the Promise of the Messiah and other bene­fits of inferiour consequence; and New Testament, for what concerns Christianity. King David (who in this Psalm, Romes Stickler would make an Intercessor between God and man) had many Promises (as Adam and others) made unto him beneficial to the Church of God; therefore when the Church (or Servants of God) was in any streights, God was thereupon minded of his Promises; not that God stood in need of these Memorandums, but hereby the Church, i. e. the faith­ful Servants of God, did support themselves and their holy Faith, with the remembrances of these Promises of God to King David and others; and so we Christians are supported in our greatest exigences, with this Promise of Christ to his Church, that the gates of Hell shall not be able to prevail a­gainst it; and therefore whoever thinks these two verses (the first and the tenth) of this Psalm, to confirm the Romish Do­ctrine of praying to Saints, and making them Intercessors, is very much mistaken; for (says our Saviour) Come unto Me, [this Me has an Emphasis in this place] all ye that are heavy loaden, and I will refresh you; in another place says our Saviour, — I will pray unto the Father for you; what need we then to desire the intercession and mediation of any other, than Jesus [Page 27] Christ, the Saviour, Mediator and Intercessor, of and for the whole world? And as it is in the 130 Psalm, the last verse, And he shall redeem Israel from all his Sins— He it is only can do it, and not Saints or Angels, who are but our fellow Creatures, and did evermore refuse worship and adoration, wherever it was offered unto them; many instances of this we have both in the Old and New Testaments.

‘I do confess I have very much trespassed upon your pa­tience, one word more (Sir) and I have done; there is one thing urged by the Papists which does a little weigh, and that is this, — the Papist urges thus against the Protestants, You (say they to the Protestants) do acknowledge that Papists may be saved, i. e. that there is Salvation in our Church; we hold (say the Papists) that there is no Salvation out of the Pale of the Roman Church; therefore to be a Roman Catholick, as it is the best, so it is the safest Religion that is, — I beseech you (Sir) do not mistake me, I do not (I assure you) speak this as being of their Per­swasion, but to be better enabled by you to oppose our Adver­saries, when they shall object to us this fallacious argument.’

Sir you shall not want what I can contribute to your satisfaction, and truly I think this may be easily answered, and I shall begin with a reply I have heard of a very learned man upon this Subject, in a Disputation between him and a Papist, who being at his last shift, and forced to make use of your above­said Argument, answered thus, —Sir, says he, do not condemn us for an excess of Charity towards you, and consider how want of Charity in you towards us may be layed to your charge another day. And withal take notice of this, that in the same manner those infamous Schismaticks, the Donatists, argued against St. Austin and the Catholick Church, taking hold of their Con­fession, that Salvation might be had in their Churches, which was not (said these Schismaticks) to be had in a Catholick Church; thus did these wicked Schismaticks conclude (with the Papists) their Religion as the surest and safest, so consequently the best also: Doth not the King of Assyria, by his servants argue against good K. Hezekiah, rant and argue much at this rate, in the 2 of the Kings and the 18 Chap. Have any of the gods of the Na­tions at all delivered his Land out of the hand of the King of Assy­ria? Where are the gods of Hamath and of Arphad? Where are the gods of Sepharvaim, Henah, and Ivah? Have they delivered [Page 28] Samaria out of my hand? Who are they amongst all the Gods of the Countreys, that have delivered their Countrey out of my hand, that the Lord should deliver Jerusalem out of my hand?

‘One word more (Sir) and I promise you I have done: Does not the Author of whom you quote the Story of the Speaking Idol, &c. express an aversion against, and relate some things to the prejudice of Arch-Bishop Laud, towards the Conclusion of his Book?’

I confess he does, and he is blame-worthy for it, but withal to be pityed, if you consider his case aright; and thus it is, in his Infancy with his Milk he sucks in the Roman Religion, has his Education in Popish Countries, becomes a Priest, goes over an Emissary into the Indies for the advancing and propa­gating the Romish Religion: However being a Man of Parts, and Learning through all the Mists and Clouds of Error, dis­cerneth the unreasonableness, first, and then the dangerous Tenets of the Church of Rome, but all this while, it is scarce much more, than Break of Day with him, he is but a Negative Chri­stian, but a Neophyte; the Roman Religion he percieves is bad, but as yet knows little of the Protestant Religion: Thus en­dowed, he comes over into England very little before our Civil Wars began; still troubled in mind, he goes over into Italy to Rome, where he thought if any place could afford him Satis­faction in the Romish Perswasion, there it must be; in that place he converses with Eminent Divines, who tell him strange Stories of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury his great inclination to return to the Roman Church; This Neophyte, this doubting wavering Christian, is told these falsehoods by these Roman Divines, to encourage him to go over an Emissary into England, and there labour vigorously in the Roman Vineyard; the poor Man be­lieves, that, which these Men know to be false; but this must be rumor'd, to gain English Proselytes, (you know, how much the Church of Rome allows of officious and beneficial Lies) con­firm those they have, and add Reputation to their Cause amongst the English Papists, [and observe (Sir) do not the Papists the same thing now? do they not observe the same Method still, to the great disheartening His Majesties Protestant Subjects, so that the King, and the Parliament have been forced to take notice of their Insolencies?] well (Sir,) with this prejudice to the Prote­stant Church of England, and the Arhh-Bishop: This Neophyte, [Page 29] this doubting Christian comes over into England, where every innocent Ceremony, and the Liturgy of the Church of Eng­land, confirm in him the Belief of the Italian Falsehoods concer­ning the Arch-Bishop, &c. and by reason of that his perswasion he proves as great an Enemy to the Church of England, as of Rome; and thus out of the Frying-pan, or out of one Fire, he leaps into another, and so turn [...] a new kind of Fanatick; and it often falls out, that out of one extreme, Men are apt to run into another; and therefore it often falls out,Witness Capt. Everard (an Olivarian and Rebellious Of­ficer,) Judge Feli's Son, whose Mother is now a Qua­ker, and many others. that when a Pro­testant turns Papist, he for the most part does throw himself into the arms and bosom of a Jesuite, and then sucks in all their wicked and abominable practices, as Principles against the So­vereignty of Kings, Humane Society, and Moral Virtues, and the Dictates of Nature, a stout Champion of the Pope, and Court of Rome, (rather than the Church of Rome) against all Tem­poral, and Civil Interests whatsoever, you may be sure such a Convert he proves; and truly this is so natural to Man in avoid­ing one Rock of danger and offence, to fall foul upon another, that if Men be not very wary and discreet, they can hardly avoid it: (thus when a Papist turns Protestant, he is apt to turn from being that, to throw himself headlong into all sorts of En­thusiastick phrensies in opposition to Popery,) this was the case of this Author; for he was so fearful of the Rock of Popery, that he fell foul upon the Rock of Enthusiasm, and there made Ship-wrack of his Faith; And therefore waving that passage concerning the Arch-Bishop, and Monarchy, let us believe the rest concerning the Idol, &c. for he delivers them upon his own knowledge being an Eye witness, and not reports from others; and now thus I have (Sir,) I hope answered your Scruple con­cerning this Author.

‘I do confess you have very fully, and now I will give you no further trouble at this time; yet if it be not too troublesome to you, be pleased to let a small piece of some two Sheets of Paper conclude our Discourse.’

Name it (Sir,) and you shall be obeyed,

‘It is that which you shewed me lately, the Tittle of it is this; [An Answer to a Pamphlet Entituled (The humble Apology of the English Catholicks, written by a Royalist before Christmas.]’

I am ready to obey you, and thus I begin; and first with the Title, though I but repeat your foregoing words.

TRƲTH-TRIƲMPHANT: In a DIALOGUE Between a PAPIST, and a QƲAKER.

GOod morrow, my half Brother in Religion.

"Why, what Religion art thou of?

I am a Roman Catholick; and I call thee my half Brother, because thou art a Quaker.

‘What Brother-hood or Relation can there be between a Quaker, and a Papist?’

O Brother! We are nearer a kin, than thou art aware of.

‘That's impossible, for I turnd Quaker to avoid Popery: for I did think the Church of England would set up Popery.’

Nothing less, Brother, for I assure you the Pope, and all of his Perswasion, of all their Adversaries dread none so much as the Church of England: But to come to the Point, all, or most part of what you believe, you have from us; for though I am a Shoo-Maker, and work at my Trade, I am for all that a Priest, and am sometimes a Quaker, and Preach up your Reli­gion, as I have done several times at Bristol.

‘What should be your Reason to endeavour to set up our Religion?’

To make you turn Papists, as you call us.

[Page 46]

"This is a strange Riddle to me, pray unfold it.

That I intend to do; We must do what we can to cry down the Bible, for that makes clear against us; and that trick we taught you of calling the Scripture a dead Letter; Then Se­condly, we teach Free-Will to that height, that a Man has Power in himself to please God, and walk uprightly: Do not you believe all this, Brother?

"Yea; Thus far we agree.

Do you know Cap. Everard?

"Yea, He was a Godly Man before he turn'd Papist.

He never was otherwise, he was a Priest too, and com­manded by the Pope to pretend to be one of you, the better to oppose the Church of England.

‘Strange! Is it possible? now I am afraid I am nearer Popery, than I was aware of: Bless me! by leaving the Church of England I thought to flie from Popery, and for ought I percieve, I am running head-long into it.’

Yes Brother, I hope to make you a good Catholick before we part.

"You can never do that.

I will either do so, or confirm you where you are.

"For the latter I am content.

Have you not heard of my Lady — How she run through all Religions; from a Protestant she turn'd Presby­terian, (to avoid Popery) there she could not rest, because there was a Church-Government, and therefore resembled too much the Church of England; and besides, she hearing there were people that Prayed and taught by the Spirit; away she goes to them: To be short, she was one while an Independent, a Quaker, and what not? Well, at last hearing that the Church of Rome had an Infallible guide in Religion, thither she steered her Course, and there she cast Anchor, and continues a good Catholick.

‘I have heard of that Lady you speak of, and for that reason, and because of what I have heard you say, I love my Religion never the better for it: there is one only reason perswades me to continue in it.’

What is that?

‘I will tell thee, If thou wilt promise me to say nothing of it.’

I do upon the word of a Priest.

[Page 47]

‘Then I will tell thee truly; a Sister (for thou must know we call one another Brothers and Sisters) may not deny a Brother to lie with her, if the Spirit moves; for every provocation to that which you call Letchery, We say is Gods Spirit,) nor a Brother a Sister, if the Spirit enable him.’

If that be all, turn Catholick, and I will give thee a Dispensation to have as many Women as thou wilt, or art able to turn to, that die when thou wilt, thou art sure to go to Hea­ven however.

‘A good Argument I confess, if thou couldst prove thy self enabled thereunto by God Almighty; but I suspect what thou dost offer, is to satisfie our Lusts and Letchery, (no matter for our Souls,) to make us subservient to your ends in this world; whereas what we do is to raise up a Holy Seed unto the Lord; so that by doing him Service, (not by Sin­ning against him) we indulge much to our own satisfaction, so that we serve him without any trouble either to the Consci­ence, or the Body: for to give a Licence for Sin is a most horrid thing, to say you have Power to Absolve for Sins past, (as the Church of England says,) is not amiss; but that you have Power to give Licence to Sin, is what I can never believe; and therefore for any thing I have yet heard from thee, I will continue as I am; therefore be one of Us, and thou shalt en­joy Multitudes of Women, without offending God.’

I have the same argument to perswade thee to come to us; I can give Indulgencies that shall serve thee and thy Posterity for Thousands of Years.

‘This is like a Doctrine of Ours, that God sees not Sin in Us that are the Godly; if one of Us lie with many Women, we are then raising a Holy Seed, a Royal Priesthood; amongst the Ungodly party, this is Fornication and a Sin; the Goods of the whole World which the wicked possess, be­long not to them, they are Ours of right, to dispossess them thereof is no Robbery.’

We say the same; for the Pope hath power to dispose of all the Kingdoms of the Earth, to take them from the wic­ked, from Hereticks, Schismaticks, Idolaters, &c. and give them to true Catholicks; for those are the truly Godly party.

‘Bless me! where am I? I shall be a Papist I very much fear; nay, I doubt, I have been one all this while.’

[Page 48]

Doubtless we are very near one another.

‘But I'le get further from thee if I can; but pray let me ask thee one Question; why are you a greater Enemy to the Church of England, than to all others that differ from the Church of Rome?’

Because they have the resemblance of a Church, which, none of you have, except the Presbyterian; and next the Church of England we dread them; and the more, because they seem to comply more with the Church of England, than formerly, and begin to percieve it impossible to set up for themselves; for when ever they shall attempt it, the Independents will infallibly supplant them, as formerly; and they again, (the Independents I mean) will run into so many Sects of Religion, and Parties, that they can never subsist; but must at last be forced to submit to the Church of England, or us of Rome.

‘I percieve now I must be either a Protestant, or a Papist.’

Without all peradventure you cannot avoid it.

I'le ee'n then turn Protestant, as I was before 1641.

By no means do so, either come straight to Us, or con­tinue a Quaker; Nay, rather that turn Protestant, I'le get thee a Dispensation from Rome to continue a Quaker; and that thou shalt not so much as go into Purgatory.

‘Yours is a very brave Religion, if it could hold water; but what assurance have you that God allows this?’

The Infallibility of the Church.

"What is that?

The truth is, we are not yet agreed amongst Our selves; for some of Us (as we Jesuites) do hold the Pope to be Infallible, that whatsoever He Decrees, We are oblieged to yield unto an implicite obedience and Belief; others do place it in a General Council, the Pope presiding over it; And lastly, others in a Council only.

And I perceive it's no where with you, with us it is, for now I will argue like a Protestant; we have Infallibility in our Church.

‘What is that?’

The Old and New Testament, for you cannot deny it to be the Word of God.

[Page 49]

‘That we cannot, but this we say, That it is but a dead Letter, without the Interpretation of the Church.’

Whoop holy day! I think your Worship will turn Quaker.

‘No such thing, I warrant you; but to proceed, and to speak to you, as to a Protestant. All your Opposers pro­duce the Bible against you, as well as against us; What can you answer to that?’

Let right take place; but by the way, this is foul play, for you to urge me to answer you as a Hydra, with so many Heads; Will you be a Papist, a Presbyterian, Independent, Qua­ker, and every thing at once? This is to be a right Jesuite indeed, but I will allow you all this advantage: I will therefore go on, as I said before, let the right take place; for the Church of England has the advantage over all her Opposers above-mentioned, and over ten thousand more, if she had so many; for against you all, she has a claim to this Infallible Guide of the Word of God, with all the difficulties therein contained, explained by all Antient Fathers and Councils, against which no sober man can except. So that we have the Bible against you, and against them; and against you we have the Bible, as I said before, ex­plained, with the four first General Councils, with the Practice of those times of Purity; besides, is it not familiar with you of the Roman Church (together with all those several enemies above-named, and Opposers of the Church of England) to cry up Success, and may not Protestants make use of the same Plea, so far especially as it is Argumentum ad hominem? And so offer to your prospect and consideration, the miraculous Restauration of the Church of England, in the year, 1660.

"You mean the Kings Restauration.

I mean both; but we are now disputing concerning the Church, not King of England; for though you, as being a Papist, a Priest, and a Jesuite, are an enemy to both Church and State: But the reason I only name the Church of Englands Restauration, is, because, I conceive, God restored the King, for the Churches sake; because God knew the King would restore the Church of England, for whose sake God did restore him. Moreover, I mention the Church of England only, because God has dealt so often miraculously for her. As first, in our King Henry the Eighth his dayes, that such an occasion of Scandal [Page 50] should be given to the whole world, as well as to that King in particular; that though he did not so very much alter the Roman Religion, yet he absolutely took away the Popes Authority, which was a miraculous step to that more exact Reformation: 2 Which, in the second place, God did miraculously bring to pass, by means of (a Child as I may say) King Edward the Sixth. The third Miracle, God did act for the Church of England, was, 3 that Queen Mary, Espoused to a King of Spain, having fully restored Popery,The miracu­lous methods of God, on the behalf of Eng­land, during se­veral Successi­ons of time. and butchered thousands of Protestants, yet was it not in her power, though assisted with the House of Austria (which was then in its Zenith, as I suppose now France is) to prevent the wonderfully miraculous Restoration of the Church of England, by the ever Famous Queen Elizabeth; and though that Good and Gallant Queen, was in the hands of Her, and the Church of Englands adversaries, yet did God mi­raculously preserve Her, for his Churches sake. And this 4 Church, was likewise, in the fourth place (though indeed not restored, yet powerfully and wonderfully) preserved, when King James Succeeded to this great and virtuous Queen. The 5 last Miracle (I pray God this Church may need no more of them) which it pleased God to shew this Church, was in the Year Sixty; though indeed three more might have been added, so as to have made this fifth the eighth, but for brevities sake, I shall 1 put them together. First, the Defeat of that Navy, which the Spaniards called their Invincible Armado, in the Year, 1588. 2 Secondly, the miraculous prevention of the Popish Conspiracy, the fifth day of November, whereby the King, His Nobles, the chief of the Gentry and Commons in Parliament, should have 3 been blown up. The third, the true Christian Valour and Magna­nimity which appeared in His Late Majesty, on the behalf of the Church of England, (asserting her Reformation) during all His Sufferings, to the last minute of his Martyrdom. And now, Sir, I hope I have confuted you, by your own way of Argu­mentation; and now, Sir, hereafter (if you please) you may worship your great Diana of Success.

‘Your Successes we cannot deny, but still, I con­ceive, the Bible is not a sufficient Infallible Guide.’

I think I have very well proved, by the several above-mentioned miracles, that Infallibility of the Bible is for the Church of England (as now it is established this Year, 1668. Jul.) [Page 51] against your, and all other Dissenters from the Church of Eng­land; and, in my opinion, is a great sign of her being a true Church, that she is furnished on all sides with good and sound Arguments for her defence, and offending her Adversaries; for, in the first, She opposes to you the Bible, Practice of the Primi­tive Church, the Antient Fathers, and your own modern ones; and against such as I was once, formerly, She has the same, though She have less occasion to make use of the Bible. Thus is She furnisht with complete Armour and Weapons. God Almighty has armed Her Cap a pe, against the Divel, and all his Instruments; So that the Gates of Hell shall never be able to prevail against Her.

You have taken your Common-Prayer Book out of the Mass.

You have your Mass out of the Jewish Liturgy.

"How can that be?

Are not the Psalms of David made use of in the Mass?

"They are, I confess.

They were, either all, or in part, the Jewish Liturgy.

"We do confess, they were.

Then hereafter, tell us no more of our Common-Prayer being taken out of the Mass; and now we are speaking of the Jews, let me tell you, that you make use of the same Ar­guments to oppose us, that the Jews did to oppose our Saviour; they urged to our Saviour, That he was an Innovator, and that he opposed the Traditions of their Church; which (say they) had continued, from the establishment of it by God in Moses's time. This method you observe against us, calling us Innova­tors, who are the chiefest opposers of Innovation; for our Churches endevour, is to cast off what you have Innovated in Christian Religion. Let me ask you one Question; Do not you believe, all that the Church of England believes?

"We do, but we believe more.

Then let me tell you, whatsoever is more, are Romes Superstructures, and Innovations; and ought to be rejected of of all true Christians.

‘I doubt I have kill'd the wrong man, for I doubted not, from a Quaker to have made you one of us; but instead of that, I have made you a Protestant, and for ought I know, I may chance to be one too: But I will not quit the Field yet, but have more discourse with you.’

[Page 52]

With all my heart, for (me-thinks) the more I dis­course with you, the more I am enabled above my capacity, which I must attribute to Gods goodness, who enables me, a weak Instrument of his, to defend his truth.

‘If it be the truth, I wish it may appear so; in the mean time I shall proceed thus, Your Religion was never heard of before Luther's time.’

Is not that Argument worn thread-bare yet? But seeing you insist upon it, I shall repeat unto you, for answer, the words of a Learned Man, out of his Epistle Dedicatory to His present Majesty;Stillingfleet. the words (as I remember) are these,—‘Since that great Miracle of Divine Providence, in your Majestie's most happy Restauration, we have seen those, who before triumphed over the Church of England, as dead; as much ex­pressing their envie at Her resurrection: Neither could it other­wise be expected, but that so sudden a recovery of Her former Lustre, would open the mouths of Her weak, but contentious Adversaries; who see Her shine in a Firmament, so much a­bove them: But it is a part of Her present Felicity, that they are ashamed of the insulting Question (What is become of your Church now?) and are driven back to their old imper­tinency (Where was your Church before Luther?) They might as well alter the Date of it, and ask where She was before your Majesties Restauration? For as She only suffered an Ecclipse, in the late Confusions; no more did She (though of a longer stay) in the times before the Reformation; and it was Her great Honour, that She was not awakened out of it (as of old they fancied) by the beating of Drums, or the rude Clamours of the People; but as She gradually regained Her Light so was it with the Influence of Supreme Autho­rity, which has caused so close an Union and Combination of Interests between them, that the Church of England, and the Royal Family, have like Hipocrates his Twins, both wept and rejoyced together: And nothing doth more argue, the excellent constitution of our Church, than that therein the purity of Christian Doctrine is joyned with the most hearty acknowledgment of your Majestie's Power and Supremacy —’ Thus far that learned Author; I shall add further, That if a Church ecclipsed or unseen, shall be the destruction of it, or that there was never any such thing, I would very fain know, where [Page 53] the Church of God was, when (it was said) the whole world was turn'd Arrian; and before our Saviour came into the world, how often was the Church of God invisible, and the Worship or Religion appointed, utterly overthrown by Idolaters? Such as the Church of God was in those days, the same our Church was before the Reformation; and where the one was, there was the other; in Dens and Caves, and in the hearts of good and Religi­ous Men, where God did recieve an acceptable Sacrifice. We see in the 19 Chap. of the first Book of Kings, verse the 10.1 Kings, Cap. 19. Ver. 10. how invisible the Church of God was, by the expression of the Pro­phet Elias there, — I have been very jealous for the Lord God of Hosts; for the Children of Israel have forsaken thy Covenant, broken down thine Altar, and slain thy Prophets with the sword, and I only am left, and they seek my life to take it away— These were the words of a true Prophet of the Lord, to whom the Church of God was so invisible to him (though often a fore-seer and fore-teller of future contingencies) that he con­ceives himself to be the only Servant of the Lord, left upon the face of the earth, yet the Eighteenth verse of the fore-men­tioned Chap. God tells the Prophet of Seven Thousand Men in Israel remaining, even all the Knees that have not bowed unto Baal, and every Mouth that hath not kist him. — That you see before Luther's time, notwithstanding their invisibility (ac­cording to this of the Prophet,) God might, and no doubt had thousands of true believers, which had not bowed their knees to your Baal of Rome, and whose Mouths had never kist him; and no doubt, the Simile is very pat between this Baal of Jezabel's in the Book of the Kings, and your Baal, i. e. the Pope of Rome; for, as this Baal of Jezabel was to be Bowed unto, and Kissed; so is your Baal or Pope of Rome likewise to be Bowed unto, and Kissed, (not his Face, but his Toe) even by Emperors,Our Saviour did suffer him­self to be kissed on the Face; as witness Ju­das's his be­traying this Sa­viour of the World with a kiss. and Kings, as well as by the meanest of his Worshipers and Abettors; and thus according to the Apostle St. Paul, in the second of the Thessalonians Cap. 2. Ver. 4. He is an adversary: [to our Savi­our and his Holy Religion,] and exalteth himself above and against all that is called God, or that is Worshiped; So that He doth sit as God in the Temple of God, shewing himself that He is God. And this truth is yet more confirm'd even by your selves, by whom this Pope is called [Dominus Deus noster Papa;] and to this Pope (in your ordinary discourse either to him, or of [Page 54] him) you attribute a Title only due to God, which is,— His Holi­ness. There be three other Texts in this same Chapter, may very well be applyed to your Baal, or Pope, Ver. 8, 9, 11. And then shall the wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall con­sume with the Spirit of his Mouth, and shall abolish with the brightness of his Coming, as it is Ver. the 8th. For during the darkness of Superstition and Popery, (the times preceding before Luther, Calvin, and others) this Baal was Worshiped with­out controll or visible gainsaying; the true Worshipers, those 7000 that had not Bowed to him, nor Kissed him, being as in­visible, as to outward prosperity, as those 7000 in the days of Elias: But when the time came for the appearance of those glo­rious Reformers of Religion, and manners according to Gods appointment; for to this, God alone, as it is in the Acts of the Holy Apostles, Cap. 1. Ver. 7. the Times and the seasons the Father hath put into his own Hands; then did the wiked one [this Roman Baal] begin to be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his Mouth, and abolish with the brightness of coming. Ver. 8. The 9. Ver. is applicable to your Baal in your false Miracles, Signs, and Lying wonders; where­by you lie in wait to deceive the Ignorant and simple. This per­son must be consumed and abolished; even him (as it is Ver. 9.) whose coming is by the effectual working of Satan, with all Power; [the Inquisition, and their visible pretented infallibilty] and Signs, and lying Wonders. — And God knows with such Signs and lying Wonders, false Miracles, &c. Your Church is sufficienrly fraught. Ver, 11. is the consequence of the former recited Verses 8, & 9. and therefore God shall send them strong delusions, that they shall believe Lies; and this is verified every day, that many among You, (otherwise Learned and wise e­nough,) do give themselves up to these strong delusions, giving as great credit to your Legends, as the Fables of one Winifred, &c. as to the Gospel it self; I could add upon this Subject, but I suppose what I have already said is sufficient to evidence un­to you the Errors of Your ways, and the Truth of Ours.

‘I confess, I am very much shaken by your Argu­guments; and the next time we meet, you may possibly ob­tain an entire Conquest over me.’

I am very glad it is come to this, which is a kind of new Creation in us; God having thus produced Light out of [Page 55] Darkness: You having thus (contrary to your intent) sent me into the Bosome of the Church of England, whereinto I hope you will likewise throw your self; whereby we shall not be half, but whole Brothers, having one Father, (which is God,) one Mother, (the Church of England) Jesus Christ the Saviour of the World, being Our elder Brother: In this confidence I dare call you Brother; and Dear Brother, fare you well for this time.