I Am glad to see you, good Neighbour, for I understand you have been lately at London. Pray what News do you bring concerning the Popish Plot?

Worthy Sir, I do as much rejoyce to see you; But as for News about the Plot, the whole I can say, is what I have received from those Gentlemen, with whom my business mostly was, and they have almost perswaded me, that there is no such thing as a Plot; and really I do very much question it, or at least as to a Popish one.

How is it that you can be tempted to gratifie those, who design your ruine, by entertaining such thoughts as these?

Sir, I must be plain with you; Although I am a young man, and not of your parts, learning, and experience, yet I can see somewhat. Had there been such a Plot as you talk of, how is it, that so many good Protestants are now so much in doubt, that they know not on whom to fasten it, whether on the Pa­pist, or Presbyterian?

You say that many are in doubt, and know not where to fasten the Plot, that supposeth, that there is Evidence enough of the being of a Plot; but the great Quaery is, Who are the Plotters? Neighbour, let me be free with you, for this is not a time to be silent, or afraid to speak; for our Religion, the Pro­testant Religion is in danger; and that which is the Papist's advantage is, that there are so many unwary persons amongst us, who through a strange heedlesness, are too apt to serve the Papists design to the loss of their Religion, the ruine, and destruction of their families, yea, and of their own immortal Souls. I pray let me be free, for it may be my experience and knowledge is greater than yours, at least in this. Shew me then, why you believe that there is a Plot, and yet know not where to fasten it?

That there is a Plot, is evident, it being confirmed by so many Witnesses, viz. Dr. Oates, Capt. Bedlow, Mr. Prance, Mr. Dugdale, &c. to the great satis­faction of His Majesty, Two Parliaments, and also the Judges of the Nation, especially my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs, who pass'd Sentence on several.

You say well, in that you have sum'd up Arguments unanswerable to prove a Plot; to which may be added the Miraculous Providences that have ap­peared in bringing in Dr. Oates, and after that, Capt. Bedlow, &c. yea, and the attempts have been made to baffle His Majesties Evidence, which have conduc'd to the corroborating and strengthening them; and what is worthy our notice, is, that these men might have gain'd many a Thousand pound by withdrawing their Evidence, even when their non-compliance with the Papists overtures is attended with the greatest hazards imaginable; witness Sir Edmondbury Godfrey, and Ju­stice Arnold, &c. So that, I must profess unto you, that when I consider how miraculously several persons, to one another strangers, have been at divers times compell'd to make discovery of this Hellish Plot, notwithstanding the great discouragements they have met with in their going through with their Evidence; [Page 4]I cannot comprehend how any, who are not extraordinarily ignorant, nor some of the Plotters, can say, They question the being of the Plot.

Sir, we question not the being of a Plot; but our Doubt is, Whose Plot it is, whether the Papists or Presbyterians?

Oh Neighbour! how is it possible, that you can be convinced, that there is a Plot, and yet question, whether it be Popish? for the same Evidence that there is a Plot, is for its being a Popish Plot; which was freely confessed by some of those that were concerned in the Conspiracy.

What do you say freely confess'd? Madam Cellier suggests as if Prance and Dangerfield were put in the Rack, and tortur'd.

I'le believe no such thing; for, we have no such Law, and (I think) no such Engines as a Rack; it being more agreeable to Popish Principles and Pra­ctices. But for your further satisfaction, I refer you to them, who can give you the best account thereof; only I add this, That if these mens Confessions had been the product of the Torture, they might soon after they had received their liberty, have abandon'd the Land, by running into some Popish Countrey, and thereby gratifie both the Papists, and themselves, and receive greater advan­tages than they can reasonably expect at home, yea, and be far from the fear of being Arnoldiz'd; surely they might be Canoniz'd, and have made as great pro­fit, it may be, of the Reliques of those cloaths in which they were Tortur'd, as 'tis said Coleman's Wife hath made of her Husbands. But can any one in his wits think, that if these men's Confession were the product of a Torture, that they would not long ere this have made their escape? But moreover consider, the most material Evidences are Dr. Oates, Capt. Bedlow, and Mr. Dugdale, &c — But who put these men on the Rack? did they not come in of their own accord, being compell'd by none, but by that God, who rules both in Heaven and Earth? Yea, and Captain Bedlow's Confession on his dying bed is such as can never be obliterated while the world endures; for he, a dying man, confirms the whole he had said before, making further discovery of their bloody designs.

You mention Capt. Bedlows Discovery on his dying bed; what think you of the Jesuits at Tyburn? shall we not value the Evidence of five on six dying men, before that of but one?

Compare the circumstances of the Jesuits with those of Capt. Bedlow, and you'l see, you have great reason to credit Bedlow before the Jesuits. For,

• 1. Jesuits have their equivocations, and mental reservations, even when they profess their abhorrence of these things, but so had not Bedlow.
• 2. They are sure of their absolution;

1. Either from one another as Priests; or, 2. what is very re­markable, even from Tyburn it self: their being hang'd for the Catholick Cause,

being meritorious of a pardon. This is to be found in Bellar­mine de Sacr, Bapt. l. 1. c. 6. where Bellarmine

asserts, That the more probable opinion is, that Martyrdom, or hanging for a Popish principle, doth confer the first grace ex opere operato; whence if any one yet remaining in his sins, having no love to God, by vertue of his Martyrdom ex opere operato (i. e.) by reason of his being hang'd for the Catholick Cause, which they call the Cause of Christ, he shall be justified and saved. So that although a Papist dye with a lye in his mouth if it at Tyburn, or some such place for the promoting the Popish design, or Treason, his being hang'd is enough to procure the pardon of that Lye; But Capt. Bedlow expected no pardon from any of their Priests, neither was at his dying hour in a capacity of receiving it from Esq Ketch.

How! do the Papists hold such dangerous Errors! then surely no wonder [Page 5]that some of these Jesuits were so confident in their lying at Tyburn; it being said by the Learned, that one of them dyed with another lye in his mouth.

That's true, Gawen did so, as hath been shewen by those that writ An­swers to their dying Speeches, and as all the Learned know; and it hath been since proved by Mr. Jenison, that another of them dyed with a lye in his mouth; and therefore their confident pleading their Innocency, when most guilty, should never tempt you to doubt concerning the being of a Popish Plot.

I cannot but acknowledg that there hath been, and it may be still is a Popish Plot; but is there not a Presbyterian one too?

Alas poor man! what should tempt you to fear that there is a Presbyte­rian Plot.

Tempt us to fear a Presbyterian Plot, do you say? Good Sir, don't you hear some of our Clergy, that are good Protestants, to make the Presbyterians, as bad as the Papists, yea worse; for some of them say, they would rather turn Pa­pist, than Presbyterian: and if the Presbyterians are as bad as Papists, why may not they then have their Plots, as well as the Papists?

Neighbour, I must confess, that there are too many of our Clergy, who do very frequently talk as you say; but you must remember, that there are a greater number of the more sober and judicious of our Clergy, that are of another mind, and who are griev'd at the very heart to find so many young brisk blades in their Pulpits, and out of them, to be so subservient unto the Papists in their Plots: which must either be an effect of their folly, or of their treachery unto the Church of England.

What, Sir, do you say it must be the effect either of their folly or trea­chery unto the Church of England? How do you make that out, Good Sir?

This is easily done, for unless they are prodigiously ignorant, they can­not but know, that the bravest Protestant Subjects in the Land, are branded by the name of Presbyterians, as appears by Mr. Dangerfield's Narrative; yea, such persons as are the honour of our Church, and the Glory of the Kingdom are un­der the Presbyterian name rendred Plotters, such as my Lord President, and many others. Which being so, what Son of the Church without folly, or treachery, can say, that the Presbyterians are as bad as the Papists? What! is the Glory of the Church of England, when under a Presbyters name, as bad as Popery; and would they indeed be rather Papists than such Presbyterians? what do they then say, but that they themselves are really Papists?

They do not mean those worthy persons you mention, but such as are for Petitions, to wit, the Dissenters from the Church of England.

Neigbour, see how you are abus'd; For 1. the Papists, whose design these men serve, mean all undaunted Protestants, when they say Presbyterians. 2. You your self suggest the same; for by Presbyterians you mean such as were for Petitioning, viz. Dissenters; But, who more for Petitioning, than such as are for the Church of England? Who were those that Presented the Petitions? were they not Sons of the Church? Again, How many Grand Juries Petitioned; but are all those Dissenters? Really, if all such as were for Petitioning be Dissen­ters from the Church, the Church of England is become inconsiderable, which is according unto Popish suggestions; which are, that either we must be Papists or Presbyterians, as if there were no Protestants in England but the Presbyterians; and as if the Church of England had dwindled into nothing, or turn'd Papists, or Presbyterians; and that the Parliament being hearty enemies against Popery, are Presbyterians. Thus you see how those young hot-heads among our Clergy do either discover great Folly, or Treachery, or both.

I must acknowledge that part of our Clergy, who do talk thus, do disco­ver [Page 6]themselves guilty of great folly, or of a wretched Treachery: But I hope 'tis not so with all our Clergy.

No surely; 'tis not the temper of all the thorough Protestants among the Clergy, which are many; they abhor these things, though for their doing so, are hated by these high-flown men, as much as if they were Dissenters.

Truly Sir, I think you are in the right; but I would fain know, what those Presbyterians are, that the name is become so odious.

If you expect that I should acquaint you with what the Presbyterians are, I must first distinguish between a few hot brains that are among them, and the more sober and greater part.

Why, Sir, are there hot heads among them also? How comes this to pass?

There are some Fools and Knaves crept in amongst all Protestant Parties, whether Episcopal, or Presbyterian; and a thousand to one but the high-flown and factions, on all sides, are the extremely ignorant, or such as are but Protestants in Masquerade (i. e.) Protestants in name, but Papists in heart. The over-zealous in all parties, who are of the more ignorant sort, being the Fools made use of by these disguised Papists, that turn themselves into all shapes as their interest directs.

Do you really believe that this is so, Good Sir?

I do indeed: for Divide & Impera, hath been ever the Roman Maxim; that is, to use all means for the dividing Protestants; and in order hereunto, the man of sin, of late call'd, The Gentleman of Rome, sends forth his Instruments a­mong all sorts of Protestants with a dispensation for the dissembling their own, and for the professing any other Religion; and accordingly 'tis not to be questi­oned, but that there are some among our Clergy, others among the Dissenters, at least among the Presbyterians in Scotland, where through their influence some of a softer temper have been ensnared to an insurrection. These Emissaries being the brands of Hell, that have turn'd the whole Europaean World into a fire, they being the men to whom we owe all our divisions, Civil Wars, &c. yea these Je­suits are the men that occasion'd the last Wars, and the Death of the late King, and all the Disturbances that have been ever since.

Really Sir, you have acquainted me with what I knew not till now; Pray, good Sir, shew me how I shall come to know these; for let them be of our Church, or among the number of Dissenters, did I know 'em, I would hate 'em, as I hate the Devil.

Neighbour, 'tis hard to give Infallible tokens of these Villains, since 'tis so easie for the Devil to transform himself into an Angel of light; however that you may not be grosly deceived, I'le tell you whom you may have some reason to suspect.

• 1. All such as do mischievously suggest unto the people any thing unduly of His Majesty.
• 2. All such as do misrepresent unto his Majesty his Parliament; for nothing more sure than that they are sound Protestants, who give the greatest assurances of their Loyalty unto their Prince, and of their Fidelity unto the Protestant Religion; and therefore, whoever would insinuate, as if they were of a Republican spirit, and enemies to the Crown, are to be suspected as Papists, whose hearts are full of Treason.
• 3. Such as endeavour to misrepresent unto his Majesty, the Great and Loyal City of London; which City, as it contains the Wealth of the Nation, even so it is the strength thereof, and next to Heaven, and a Parliament, His Majesties greatest security.
• 4. Such as suggest, that those who are zealously devoted for His Majesties safety in a couragious prosecuting of the Conspirators, and Plotters, are enemies to the King, and factious, are to be suspected.
• [Page 7]5. All such as discourage and reproach the Kings Witnesses, whether more publickly in Courts of Judicature; or less so, in Coffee-houses, or otherwise; such (I say) are greatly to be suspected, in that they do the utmost they can, for put­ting a stop unto a thorough prosecution of the Plot, in which none but Papists can be Active.
• 6. All such as on either side heighten the divisions among Protestants; for the greatning our divisions, weakens us, and tends to the strengthening of the Popish in­terest, our decay being but in order to their flourishing. Whence then,

• 1. Such among the Dissenters, as reproach all the Church of England, as if they had been all intolerable, and friends to Popery, &c.
• 2. All such as reproach and revile all Dissenters, as if they had been as bad as Papists; Such are to be suspected. I might insist on many other Notes, and might raise the number unto that which Bellarmine saith of the Notes of the true Church; but desiring you to make the best improvement of these for the present, must go on to the next thing.

Sir, I humbly thank you for this, and I hope I shall be careful how I give credit to the discourses of these persons you mention, lest I unawares should serve the Papist to my own hurt. But, Sir, I beseech you to go on, and shew me what the sober Presbyterian is.

The sober Presbyterian is a thorough Protestant, who doth agree with our Church in all the great Doctrines that we profess to own; they are such Protestants as are in France and Holland, &c. differing from the Church of Eng­land about somewhat indifferent, as we say [but sinful as they say] concerning the manner of Worship and Church-Discipline.

Is this all the difference between us and them?

No surely, for there are many among them that could comply with us both in Worship and Church Discipline, who yet cannot conform, because of subscribing to some Articles and Declarations.

But will they take the Oath of Allegiance and Supremacy?

They will do so, but they will not abjure the Covenant.

Then they are good Subjects; but what is the Covenant?

That Covenant was unhappily contrived, as many of themselves say, though the subject matter in many things is good, as their swearing to preserve his Majesty, and to oppose Idolatry, &c. And because they think that they can't abjure it, unless they swear that that is evil which they think good, viz. the opposing sin, and preserving his Majesty, they refuse to abjure it.

Then they pretend Loyalty, as one reason why they will not abjure it, and conform.

'Tis true; But this abjuring is not to continue long, the time is almost expir'd; and then the terms of their Conformity will become more easie; and did we lay aside this Oath, and the Declaration that is much of the like import, many would conform; and if we were as moderate as the Protestants in Queen Elizabeth's days, such as conform not, might be Indulg'd to preach publickly in our Churches.

Really, Sir, methinks I like this proposal well, it doth argue, that you are a man of good moderate Principles; and what need, Sir, such a Bussle about Conformity and Nonconformity? Let us bear with one another, and give the same liberty to others which we would expect for our selves, and unite and strengthen our hands against the common enemy, the Papist. Are we not all Good Christians, Honest Protestants, and Loyal Subjects?

Now you speak like a true thorough Protestant; for this is the prayer of all judicious well-temper'd Protestant Divines, and People, whether Episcopal or Presbyterian.

But, Sir, I should be more heartily of this opinion, if I might be assur'd that these Presbyterians were men of such sober Principles as you say.

Why do you doubt on't, do you think I would impose on you?

No Sir, I believe you would not impose on me: but the reason of my doubt is this; I have been told that these Presbyterians are a wicked people, full of pride and selfishness; and who would have done God more service, if they had con­form'd at their Black Bartholomew day; for they are for the Corinthian-Law, First they'l hang you, and then Judg you.

Who told you so, Neighbour?

Who told me so! Truly Sir, I saw it in the Writing of one of their own, even in the Writing of a Nonconformist very lately, who speaks it from his own experience; and can you in the least question it?

Whose writing, I pray? for I would willingly know the Author, or see his Books; for, if it be a sober good man, that speaks thus, I should be inclin'd to think it true, though one witness is not enough to condemn them. But were the Presbyterians really such to one another, what would they be to us, had they power? and that they may never be countenanced by such as are in power, it should be our endeavour; and if nothing will keep down their pride but the execution of Laws against them, that should be done. But pray, Sir, what is the Man, or what are his Writings? do you know him?

I have heard much of him from my friends in London, but I'le not report it; only here are his books, you can best find out the temper of the Author. Pray peruse them, and give me your sense.