OH Sir, I am glad to see you: what Anno aetatis suae 72. and yet so brave and lusty? having not of late seen any thing from you, I was afraid that the difficulty of finding out Self­murderer, had tempted you to make upon your self some fatal experiment; like the Philosopher, when he could not solve the motion of the Sea, threw himself into it.

I must confess, Harry, I have been of late (but much against my inclinations) very useless; my talent and the present current of Affairs are diametrically opposite: had the Church of England men been our own, I could have run divisions upon the Dissenters ad infini­tum; I would have proved them a pack of Rebels for a whole Century; I would have made the last 88 to be of a plece with this; and the In­vincible Armada should have been believed to be no more than a Phanatick Conspiracy.

Nay the Dissenters are not at this time to be provoked.

That I am very sensible of, and there­fore I have endeavoured all I could to bring my self to speak for them; but I find I do it so auk­wardly, that you would as soon cure the Rickets in one of my age, as bring any thing of mine into shape that pleads for them: my Answer to the Letter to a Dissenter, I hope, was an ample spe­cimen of my good will; bút my wit lay so much the other way, that my answer was looked upon to be the worst of the four and twenty; besides [Page 2] my printing of the Letter at large, made me in danger to be brought in as a disperser of the Libel.

I must tell you, Sir Roger, that Answer with some other late Writings of yours, has a little atton'd for your old Sins; and tho the Dis­senters do not look upon you as their best friend; yet it has in some measure allayed the enmity be­tween them and the Serpent.

Now you put me in mind. I think I have given the Dissenters in some of my last Ob­servators a very pleasing farewel: If I be not mistaken, I spoke notable things for the Tolera­tion; and were it not for the reproach of self-contradiction, I could have said twenty times as much.

What need you fear self-contradiction so much? Cannot you say, That upon a change of circumstances, a man may likewise vary his judgment as to Toleration, with a respect to hic & nunc; [R. L's. Answer to the Letter to a Dissenter, p. 12.] and what was abominable in one Reign, may be Law and Gospel in another?

You speak right; to alter one's opinion, tho at threescore and twelve, I think, is no very great blemish: But I that have so often chal­leng'd the World to discover two clashing Senten­ces in all my Writings; that have carried my matters always so even, that to discover one flaw in me, was as difficult as to find out Sir Edmund-Bury-Godfrey's Murther: For me to speak home for Toleration, would make it a harder task, to find an agreement between my Works, than it would be to reconcile the two Churches.

What is't you have so unluckily said, that will make it so heinous in you to write for Toleration?

O I have spoke against the Dissenters such hard words, that now I could willingly eat them; but withal they are so full of Gall and bitterness, that should I swallow them, they were in danger to come up again.

'Tis but gilding them then, Sir Roger; a sew, Presents from the Dissenting Party, I sup­pose, will make 'em run down easily: But what are these cutting Expressions?

Why among other things, I have said, That Liberty of Conscience was a Paradox against Law, Reason, Nature and Religion: [Obs. Vol. 3. Numb. 4 [...].] and should I now unsay all this, the Wags would make such work with me, as I for­merly did with Richard and Baxter.

Have you never an old Distinction then left to help you out at a dead lift? I remember when I had occasion to consult your writings, distinguishing was the best part of your talent.

That you must know I have already at­tempted, when I perceived that an Indulgence was a brewing; I thought it was high time for me to draw back, and pull in my horns; and therefore I immediately fell to work; and split the hair. I artificially divided an Indulgence, into an Indulgence granted and an Indulgence taken; into an Indulgence that shall owe it self to the favour of the Prince, and an Indulgence that shall be got by the importunities of the People: [Observ. Vol. 3. Numb. 43.] By thus nicely distinguishing the matter, I was in hopes to rescue the present To­leration from the stroaks of my former animad­versions; and in my Answer to the Letter to a Dissenter, my telling the Dissenters that The De­claration of Indulgence ran to them, and not they to the Declaration, [Answ. to the Letter, p. 3.] I think was a full Comment upon the Text as it stands thus divided.

Methinks, Sir Roger, this Distinction is very ridiculous, and I can compare it to nothing more, than to a Decree of the Council of Constance, which, I remember ever since I writ my Pacquet, runs thus: Upon the Debate about the Commu­nion in one kind, it was ordered, that when the Laity desired the Cup, it was by all means to be denied them; but if they would submit to the non obstante to our Saviour's Institution, and not de­sire it; then they might be allowed to partake of it: So that, Ask and ye shall receive, it seems is a Rule that will by no means hold in the case of Toleration.

I must confess I was there hard put to it, and you may be sure, that 'twas not willingly that I took my leave so abruptly of the Observator, and went trailing, like a Blood hound, after the Murder of Sir E. B. G.

Let Murder alone, when all comes to all, 'tis but saying that he was a Heretick, and then Killing you know is no Murder. Our busi­ness must now be to get off the Penal Laws.

Penal Laws! Had my endeavours suc­ceeded, they should have been kept up to the end of the Chapter, ay and as tight too as any Fiddle-string: cou'd I but have brought over the Church of England men, our business had been done; and I think I drew as good a Scheme for accommodation, as ever Cassander did, or [Page 3] the Bishop of Spalato: Had that project took, the Penal Laws wou'd have been as useful to us as the Inquisition; and then I had boldly affir­med, That neither the Church of England, nor the Members of the Church of Rome, cou'd be joyn'd in a Toleration with the Phanaticks, but with the certain ruin of both. [Obs. Vol. 3. Num. 134.]

These Church of England men are ve­ry obstinate.

Ay, and perverse too; insomuch that you would as soon perswade the Pope to part with the Franchises, as bring them to pray to the People in an unknown tongue. T'other day a Friend of ours (I suppose after reading my Pro­ject of Accommodation) asked a Church-man; in case the Church of Rome should give up Tran­substantiation, what would the Church of England part with in order to a reconciliation: And what dost think the Church-man offered in exchange?

Why, the nine and thirty Articles, I suppose.

I protest only Passive Obedience; and I wou'd no more take that Principle from them; than I wou'd unshackle a Mad-man. Passive valor is a virtue I love in an Enemy; and 'tis as neces­sa y for our preservation that they hold this Do­ctrin, as 'tis for the Grand Seignior that a Bassa believes that of Fatality, when he is to undergo the disclpline of the Bow-string.

I give the Church of England men for lost; and therefore for my part, my Province shall be to gain the Dissenters, I think the wind blows fairest from that side.

Prithee, Harry, how cam'st thee to be either beloved by the Papists, or believed by the Dissenters? I am sure you have spoke as severe things of the Papists, as ever I did of the Phana­ticks, and yet by a sudden turn you are become as gracious, as if you were a Convert of some con­siderable standing.

I perceive you don't understand the virtue of Holy Water; this powerful sprinkling will immediately restore a man to the state of Innocence: Had Adam but known this easie re­ceipt, he would never have been at the expence of Fig-leaves. You must know I have all my old sins forgiven me, and I am now as clean as if I had been over head and ears in Iordan.

But all thy washing will not clear thy contradictions; thy Pacquet of Advice and the weekly Occurrences are as opposite as Fire and Water; and I wonder how thou canst so shame­fully prevaricate, without one single blush to al­ter thy complexion. When I was press'd hard with my former Opinions, I set off the false Coin with some plausible Varnish, and alwaies distin­guished where I could not sairly deny, but thou wou'dst fain cheat even in spite of daylight; thy juggle is so easily detected, that by thus openly publishing thy Shame; one wou'd think this task was given thee, not so much that thy Masters had need of thy pains, as to oblige thee to a Pe­nance.

Puh, Sir Roger, you know words are wind, and why should one no more than t'other be tied to one point of the Compass; he that can turn and double upon a Stage, is alwaies ap­plauded for his performance; and why may not a dexterous change of Opinion be as much commended for the activity of the Brain, as the other is for the agility of Body.

In troth, Harry, I must confess thy Brain is of a very singular constitution, and thy late Writings are such Originals, that for my part, I think thou deservest to have a Patent for Scrib­ling; thou art of late the very Darling of the Pa­pists, and thou carriest on the business of Rome so vigorously, that I do not doubt in a short time to see thee Secretary to the Conclave.

Why, I believe I do them no small ser­vice with my Occurrences; I take from them the odium of Persecuti [...]n, by fixing it upon the Church of England; I fill the Peoples heads so full with Penal Laws, that there is no room left for the Inquisition; and if any one blabs about Q. Marys days, I immediately stop his mouth with the thirty fifth of Elizabeth.

But you are very frugal in giving Instan­ces of the Severitities of the Church of England, not above one in a Paper.

You must know he that has not much Butter, must spread it thin; I must make the most of what I have, for I am afraid hereafter I am not like to have from that side any more Ex­amples: But if you observed, I manage matters to the best advantage: When once upon a time, there was taken from a Quaker a Warming-pan for the Church dues; I put in a notable innuendo, and hinted that 'twas then cold weather; what think you, may not that be called the Warming­pan Persecution?

Ay that was indeed hot and firy, to take a Warming-pan from a Quaker, was a lit­tle too unchristian, whom not only the Sea­son, [Page 4] but his Religion obliged to frequent fits of shaking.

And now you talk of your distinguishing, I think I have had lately a notable fetch that way too: When I had in one of my Occurrences ac­cused the Clergy of London of cheating the Poor of Sion Colledge, in keeping from them the Charity of their Founder. [Occur. Numb. 11.] And the malice and falshood of my accusation being un­luckily published, I was hard put to it to avoid the Charge of Evil Speaking, Lying, and Slan­dering; therefore in my next Paper I did pro­test, that in my former Story, I did not intend to re­flect upon the London Clergy: [Occur. Num. 12.] So that here is the Clergy of London, and the London Clergy make up a very serviceable Di­stinction.

Your Occurrences then I perceive are to insult over the Church of England, and thereby to divert the Papists and gain the Dissenters.

You are in the right on't; this Church of England you know is our greatest obstacle; it vexes me to think that an Heretical Church shou'd be by Law established; these Laws are such un­lucky ways of fortifying, that they stand more in our way than Walls and Bastions. Could we but once level their Works, you would not find it long before we fell to storming, and I think we have already made some considerable ad­vances.

And do the Dissenters come on kindly?

Why truly some of them are pretty for­ward, and we favour them accordingly; we do as the Patriarch did of old, he that comes in first receives the Blessing; if they promise fairly, then we place them in convenient stations, we put them in such posts that are something for their honour, as well as for our use.

I must confess for my part, I am not for advancing the Dissenters too much; and tho I cannot but approve of their present behaviour, yet I am not for trusting them too far, for they are slippery creatures.

Trusting them quoth a! Why who does? Have you ever seen a Dissenter at the head of a Regiment? have you ever heard that any of them was made Lieutenant of the Tower, or Governour of a Garrison? The Offices they are generally put into, are places of Expence and not Profit. If any of them has a Mandat to be Mayor or Alderman of a Town; he is so preca­rious in his Office, that he dares not make one false step upon pain of another Regulation: and withal they commonly act in conjunction with Papists; so that they are no more than Under-Workmen, they are only employed, not trusted.

Here is a Dissenter coming; I guess he comes to beg your assistance, Harry, either to present an Address, or to get a Commission to re­gulate some stubborn Corporation. He looks as if he had a spite to the Tests and Penal Laws.

Let me alone, I'll warrant you I man­age him to advantage, and if I do not make him as rank a Repealer as any is in England, I'll for­seit all the gain of my Occurrences.

Well I'll take my leave of you; and at our next meeting shall expect an account of your Transactions, and in what forwardness Affairs stand for a Parliament. Farewel.

Gentlemen, I am sorry I have di­sturbed you, and that I should be the occasion of breaking up so choice and select a meeting. My business is only with you, Harry, and not so ur­gent neither, but that I can retire, and call upon you at your leisure.

Sir, you are heartily welcome, I am never so engaged, but that I am always ready to wait upon a Person of your Character. Your's I am sure is publick business; and since I have not of late seen your hand to an Address, I doubt not but you come now at least some hundreds strong.

That is not at present my business. You must know, there is a small place in his Majesties service lately fall'n vacant, which lies so conve­niently in my neighbourhood, that as it may not be of such advantage to another, so no one per­haps can so easily attend the duty with so much diligence as my self; and therefore since I am told, that now all Offices are disposed of without distinction; I hope by virtue of former acquain­tance, I may beg your interest on my behalf.

Before I can appear your Friend, you must answer me first to some few Questions; for no man must expect his Reward, before he can say his Catechism. Will you, whenever there is a Parliament call'd, endeavour to choose such men as will take off the Tests and Penal Laws?

What is the meaning of this?

You must know then, that no one Is to be either promoted to, or continued in an Of­fice, [Page 5] who will not answer affirmatively to this Question.

Why this is encountring Test with Test, setting one nail to drive out another; if a man be not qualified for an Office but upon such con­ditions: You seem to set up as hard things as those you would have abrogated. For what is the difference between your obliging a man to abjure the Test, and the Laws requiring him to renounce Transubstantiation? but only this, that for my part I think renouncing Transubstantiation to be the more innocent.

There is a greater difference than you may imagin: for the Declaration that is requi­red by the Law is a violence to a Man's conscience; 'tis obliging him to renounce an Article of his Faith; whereas the Tests are matters purely po­litical: they were promoted by a Faction, and de­signed only to gratifie a Party, which is pleased to call it self the Church of England.

Hold there, Harry, these words are something too severe; let me tell you, you can­not make the enacting of these Laws to be the bu­siness of a Faction, without putting the late King and his Parliament at the very head on't; and it does not become you to speak so irreverently of a Crowned Head, thô it lies in ashes. But suppose a man shou'd believe in his conscience, that the Tests are a great security to the Protestant Reli­gion, and that the consequence of repealing them will be the introducing of Popery; (as I must necessarily think of those many Noble and wor­thy Gentlemen, who lately lost their Employ­ments upon this very question) is not the turn­ing of such a one out of his Office, which per­haps is his whole subsistence, for not consenting to repeal these Tests, not only a privative, but ac­cording to your wise distinction, a positive inflict­ing of penalties on the score of conscience? [Occur. Numb. 9.] For is not he that thinks his whole Religion to be in danger, as much concerned in his conscience, as another that is so tender of one single Article?

But these are groundless apprehensions: the Protestant Religion will be secure without these Tests; and I have over and over proved that they are but Mud-Walls. Surely you have never seen my Occurrences.

Ay that I have, and at the same time that I could laugh at your Jests, I was offended at your scurrilities: and now you put me in mind, I have seen your Pacquet of Advice from Rome too: there I remember you say, That no mortal man can embrace or countenance the Popish Religion, but either a designing Knave, or a cajol'd self-will'd Fool. [Pacq. vol. 3. p. 15.] Now I cannot believe that you look upon either of these Characters to be very honourable.

I wou'd have the Papists be admitted in­to Offices as well as other Subjects; and they may sometimes happen to have better abilities to serve their King and Country, than those that wou'd ex­clude them. [Occur. Numb. 9.]

Certainly, Harry, thou art made up ei­ther of Knavery or Forgetfulness; thô I am afraid Knavery is the chief ingredient in thy composi­tion. Have not you said in your Pacquet, that you cou'd wish we were fairly rid of two and fifty thousand Papists, and yet you believed, and durst un­dertake to prove the King should not lose one good Subject by the Bargain. [Pacq. vol. 1. p 143.]

You shou'd not so spitesully recollect my former Opinions; you shou'd consider not so much my old faults, as my present arguments; and if my carriage at this time may make you entertain any hard thoughts of my person: thô you may not believe the man, yet I hope you will be convinced by his reasons.

Why truly whenever I see a forehead of Brass, I am apt to believe, that what is within is of no better mettal. To be always false and shifting, is methinks a temper so mean and creeping, so very like the race of the Serpent, that to be overcome by such a one's insinuation, is not to be perswaded but betrayed.

Is it not unreasonable that the Papists should be debarred of those priviledges and advan­tages which they are born to? And since they are un­der an equal obligation of duty with other Subjects, why should not they have the same right? as 'tis in other Countries, where Protestants and Pa­pists have an equal share in the government. [Occur. Numb. 9]

Prithee shew me but one Country where there are but four Papists to one Protestant, and the Protestants allowed to enjoy equal priviled­ges with the Papists: If this cannot be done, why then should the Papists of our Nation look upon it as unequal dealing in this government to keep them from Offices, when their number is not as yet perhaps above one in two hundred? unless they assume some extraordinary privi­ledges to their persons, as well as their Religion; and pretend that their very Civil Rights are Ca­tholick.

But these Test-Laws are unjust: they set up an Inquisition into mens thoughts, put their Souls on the Rack; so that a Papist must either starve or violate his Conscience. [ibid.]

I perceive, Harry, your compassion leans much on the Popish side; and you do not seem much concerned, whether a Protestant dies in his Bed, or on a Dunghill, for if the loss of imploy­ments be an infallible symptom of starving; I am afraid there will be found of late more Church of England men put into those uneasie circumstan­ces, than there are Papists of any note in the whole Nation. And since you would perswade us, that the grand project is to employ all men equally, without any regard to their perswasions; methinks it does not at all become you in poli­cy, to give such early instances of partiality.

Are not there Church of E [...]gland men preferred as well as other men? do not you see them daily made Deans, and Bishops, &c.

So have I seen Bulls and Bears wear Top­knots; but I presume they would never have gone to the expence of adorning the Brutes, were it not on purpose to expose the fashion. Prithee, Harry, there are Knaves of all persuasions, and the Church as well as the Barn breeds Vermin.

Why are you so much afraid of Papists being put into publick Employments? I'll assure you they are not such men as you doe imagine; and whosoever says they are bloody and cruel, foul­ly misrepresents them, and does not draw them in their proper colours.

Pray, Harry, how long have you had such a favourable opinion of their good nature? what, are all the holy Candles out, that you formerly told us, were made of Protestant Grease at the Irish Massacre? [Pacq. Nov. 19. 1680.] Are there no Popish Fires but that which burnt the City? Or have the French Protestants think you, left their Estates and come over only for the advantage of a Col­lection? These are too bitter things, Harry, to be so easily digested: and if I be not much mi­staken, I can shew you that some of them are bound by Oaths to give Hereticks no better quarter.

Surely there is no such thing?

I do assure you I had it from a very sub­stantial Author.

Pray who is it? I'll warrant you one of our modern Misrepresenters.

No I'll assure you; I had it from the worthy Author of the Pacquet of Advice from Rome; and certainly he must needs know best what was done there, where he kept his weekly correspondence. 'Tis the Oath, which all Po­pish Bishops take at the time of their Consecra­tion: My Author has it at large, but I shall here only give you the Clause of it. And all Hereticks, Schismaticks, and such as rebel against our Lord the Pope, or his Successors, I shall to the uttermost of my power, persecute, impugn, and condemn. So help me &c. [Pacq. Jan. 30. 1679.]

And does not the Church of England with her Penal Laws come upon you and your Brethren with the same severities?

Pray where is a Church better seen than in her Articles and Canons? And if these are to be looked upon as the Standards of her Doctrin; to give the Church of England her due, she in her 66. Canon requires her Bishops and Ministers to endeavor by instruction and perswasion to re­claim all Recusants within their respective limits: and if some of her Communion, did put the Laws in Execution against us with too much ri­gour; the present promotion of several of those Instruments of our Miseries, wou'd tempt a man to believe, that what they did was not so much out of mistak [...], as by order.

But now you have a Commission to en­quire, into what money was taken from you up­on the account of your Religion; and so in some measure you may make your selves whole again.

Prithee Harry, why dost not send us to the Spanish Wrack to dive for Gold and Silver? on my conscience I believe it wou'd be to as much purpose. If you will procure us all that was returned into the Exchequer, that will in­deed encourage and enable us to sue for the rest; and surely you do not think that the Exchequer ought to thrive by oppression no more than a pri­vate Gentleman's pocket.

If you consent to take off the Tests, you do not know what may be done for you; and methinks you of all people shou'd be ready to comply, since you are so much obliged for the Toleration: and you know one good turn always requires another.

Suppose the Church of England men had complied to take off the Tests, dost think then we shou'd have been such Favourites? I find it was our turn to be asked last: we have somthing of Original sin that still sticks to us; and I am afraid when Popery comes in, we that have no [Page 7] foundation, and are as it were strangers in the land, must expect that this Liberty will onely encrease our future risk, and put us further into the house of bondage.

You shall have a Magna Charta for Li­berty of Conscience; and that you know, is like the Laws of the M [...]des and Persians, unaltera­ble.

I must be a fool by thy own Maxim, if I believe thee; for have not you said in your Pacquet, that he is only fit to be Recorder of Goat­ham, who does not foresee thát if ever the Papists prevail, Magna Charta and the Bible must down together. [Pacq. Nov. 21. 1679.] But now I think on't, how will this Magna Charta, and the Magna Charta of the Council of Lateran stand together? which is so far from giving Li­berty of Conscience, that it will not allow Here­ticks the common priviledge of living.

Has not Sir Roger cleared that difficulty sufficiently? when he told you, that when they are rightly distinguished, they may very well stand together; for the Decrees of the Church of Rome are Religious, this Liberty you are offered is a civil point. [Answ. to the Letter to Dissenters. p. 7.]

Well now I find true, what I always suspected; that this Liberty was grounded upon a trick of state; and not upon a Religious convi­ction of Judgment. So that when the Govern­ment shall not stand in need of such Arts; that is, when Popery is too powerful to submit to such condescensions; we must expect to be thrown off, and sink again into the state of suf­fering.

I do assure you, it has been the constant judgment of Papists, that men all ought to have Liberty of Conscience: and they are very ill men, and you ought not to joyn with them who wou'd perswade you to the contrary.

Divide & impera, I know is the Papist's rule, as well as the Politician's. Prithee Harry, he that is but Eight and twenty years old, has lived long enough to see their methods of destroy­ing the Protestant Religion: and it is mostly by playing fast and loose with the Dissenters. Some­times the Dissenter is a Heretick and a Rebel, and all the cry must be, Crucifie him, crucifie him; at another time he is all innocence, What harm has he done? We'll release him and let him go. Thus by intermittent fits of ease and rigour, they en­deavour to shake and undermine that foundati­on; against which their arguments have not strength to prevail.

But this Indulgence was so frankly offered you, that you cannot choose but make sutable returns for such unexpected civilities.

Proffered service in some case is not on­ly unacceptable, but nauseous; for when all the Ar­guments of Reason and Religion could not pre­vail; to find an unexpected fit of affection, makes the kindness something suspicious, and all the endearing expressions may proceed not so much from Love, as Dissimulation; a politick design may be in the bottom, and a snake may lie in the grass that looks so fresh and flourish­ing.

I find you still continue in your ground­less suspicion of the Papists: methinks they are the most reasonable men alive; for if they do repeal your Laws, they promise you Equipollent securities.

I must tell you Harry, the Papists are the worst men in the world to pretend to insure the Protestant Religion from Fire and Faggot: their love to Hereticks, we know, is generally hot and flameing, and 'tis rarely that any of them vouch­safes to kiss, but when 'tis to bring in others that come with Swords and Staves. And what is this Equipollent security to be? an Act of Parliament?

Yes, but such an Act that shall be unal­terable, and not in the power of future ages to revoke.

Hold, not too fast there, you will ruine the Dispensing power else; for if the King may not suspend that Act too at pleasure, what will become of those Officers, who have made so bold with the Laws in being? for the consequence must reach all Acts alike.

Ay, but these Tests are in their nature un­just, and dangerous to the government in their consequence; and so no matter what becomes of them.

And will not that Law, think you, be unjust, which cramps the King's natural and inhe­rent right of suspending Acts of Parliament? so that this Law or the mighty Prerogative of suspending immediatly falls to the ground: and which do you think will most likely get the bet­ter on't? Besides that Law, if it be equipollent, must exclude all Romish Priests from Officiating in any publick Church or Chappel within the Kingdom: Now if it be, according to you, so impious to exclude Papists from serving the King in publick Offices; what a monstrous piece of impie­ty will Popish Judges interpret that Law to be, [Page 8] which excludes the Priests from serving God in his publick Worship? and therefore the apparent consequence of repealing our Laws to me will be this; that hereafter we shall have all Popish Governours both in Church and State; and to us will be left the Merit of obedience, and the Glory of suffering; onely I am afraid we shall much Eclipse that Glory, upon some melancho­ly considerations that we have had a hand in our own execution.

Well I perceive you will not give me a Categorical answer to my Question. You will have the same more formally put to you ere long, and I do not doubt when you have taken time to consider, but you will return a very sa­tisfactory answer.

To be short with you then; the sum of my opinion is this: That I consider my self as an Englishman as well as a Protestant; and what­ever I conceive may directly or by consequence prejudice my Religion, or Civil Rights, I think my self obliged not to consent to it, as I am to answer it to GOD and my COUNTRY. So farewel.