those who are Gods Elect cannot possibly perish, whether they come to years of discretion ye or no, considering these scriptu­res, viz.

1. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of Gods elect? It is God that justifies, who shall condemn? Rom. 8.31, 32, 33, 34. &c.

2. If it were possible they should deceive even the very E­lect. Implying clearly that it is unpossible.

3. Whom he did foreknow he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his sonne, that he might be the first born of many brethren. Moreover, whom he did predestinate them he also called, and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Now give me leave I beseech you in love to intreat you but to consider the difference betwixt the Apostles ends, perswasion and judgement, and this your judgement which you propose to us; You confidently affirm you hold and teach, That God hath not decreed from eternity, to elect any person of mankind upon any terms, but that in case he liveth to years of discretion he may very possibly perish notwithstanding any such de­cree.

Ob. 1. In which expression I first observe that your end is contradictious to the Apostles drift.

Rea. For whereas the Apostles expressions tend for incou­ragement of all that have made their election sure and are ascer­tained of it, to be exceeding confident that nothing can sepa­rate them from the love of Christ verse 35.39. and that seeing God is for them, none can be against them, bringing in a strong argument to back his assertion, to wit, He that spared not his own son, but delivered him up for us all, observe this [for us all] implies and includes all Gods Elect, as the follow­ing verse clears.

Now the Apostles argument lyeth thus, to wit, If God spared not his only son, but delivered him up for us all, that are Gods elect, verse 32. How shall he not with him also freely give us all things. Implying an impossibility but that he should with him give us all things needfull both for our souls and bodies; and make all things work together for our [Page 3]good, as verse 28. so that God himself being for us nothing can be against us, verse 31.

So that the very reading of the text will satisfy any rational apprehension, that the drift of the Apostle is to build them up to a strong confidence; that so they might have strong consolati­on and full assurance of faith, and without wavering, as He. 10.22, 23, and c. 6.18.

Whereas the very end of your assertion tendeth to no other but to put if possible even Gods very Elect, and such who know they are so, into doubts and fears: who ought not to cast away their strong confidence which hath great recompence of Reward, see Heb. 10.35. for in so doing they cast away even their spiritual life: For the just live by faith, as verse 38.

Obj. 2. Secondly, I observe your judgement is contradi­ctious to the Apostles judgement.

Rea. For the Apostle was perswaded that neither height, nor depth, nor any other Creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, Rom. 8.38, 39. Us, I say, if we be his Elect. And the Apostle was perswaded that if God be for us, none can be against us, nor pluck us out of his hands, nor lay anything to our charge, but we shall be more than conquerors, through him that loved us, as verse 31, 32, 33, 37. And that without all peradven­ture whom God hath foreknown he also hath predestinate to be conformed to the image of his sonne, And whom he hath predestinate them he also calleth; and whom he calleth, them he also justifieth, and whom he justifieth, them he also glorifi­eth, as v. 28, 29, 30.

And the Apostle is of opinion and doth affirm Heb. 6.17.18. That God willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutabilitie of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that so they might have strong consolation.

But you hold and teach that notwithstanding any such decree, or immutable counsel, or foreknowledge, or predestina­tion, or election of God, yet if they come to years of discre­tion they may possibly perish: which to me seemeth very strange.

Now you put in an ingredient so quite contradictory to what you assented to before, that I hope your own assentings when you see them unveiled, will clearly convince you that your own dissentings are not only contradictious to your own assen­tings, but to the truth it self.

Rea. For you hold and teach that God hath not decreed from eternity to elect any person of mankind (upon any terms) but that in case he liveth to years of discretion he may very pos­sibly perish.

1. Wherein first you affirm as much as if you should say, That God had not decreed from eternity to elect Christ himself upon any terms, but in case he lived, as that he did, to years of discretion, he might possibly have perished. The which I hope you will not affirm. And therefore thus far I hope you will grant conviction.

2. Secondly, In that your generall terms do exclude all and every person of mankind as that in your apprehensions not­withstanding the decree of God to have some elect (and that a certain number, as that you acknowledge, and that he hath un­changably decreed what that number shall be)

Yet you affirm, as much as if you should say, that all Gods e­lect may very possibly perish, notwithstanding Gods decree to save some. Thus far I hope also you will deny even you own assertions.

Now in regard I hope you will grant that the Election of Christ standeth sure, and that he could not possibly perish.

I shall assume a little further that you will also grant that such who are elected in time, by the same hand (that elected Christ in the fulness of time from the loines of the Virgin) such I say whom God electeth, from the very loines of their natural parents, by means of propagation, as he did Christ: you can­not for shame deny but their Election also standeth sure, so that they cannot possibly perish.

Ar. But Christ which sanctifieth, and they which are sanctified, are all (of one) that is the are all (of God) as Christ himself was of God, for which cause he was not ashamed to call them brethren, for it behoved Christ in all things to be made like unto his brethren, &c. See Heb. 2.11.17.

They are not of the world as he was not of the world. John 17.14.16.

If they were of the world, the world would love his own, but Christ hath chosen them out of the world, and therfore the world hateth them, Joh. 15.19.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, &c. verse 16. saith our blessed Savior, to whom God hath given power over all flesh that he should give eternal life to as many as God had given him. John 17.2.

Some are of the world, and therefore it is that they speak of the world, and the world heareth them.

But some are of God, and he that knoweth God heareth them, but he that is not of God heareth them not; and thereby may be known the spirit of truth and the spirit of error: see 1 Jo. 4.5, 6. And again, He that is of God heareth Gods words, saith Christ, ye therfore hear them not because ye are not of God, John 8.47.

So that it is clear some are of God before they hear God words, and do therfore hear them because they are of God, and not of the world: For the truth is they are so of God by generation, as that God is the chief cause of their very separa­tion or propagation from the very loines of their natural parents. And this is properly their actual election, which is accomplish­ed in time according to his eternal purpose, or counsel of his will to elect in Christ; having in his immutable counsel, de­termined with himself, what he would effect and bring to pass in time; for he worketh all things (in time) according to his eternal purpose or counsel of his will before there was time.

But without all question such who are thus separated by the hand of God through means of generation, and so are properly selected out of the world, as peculiarly his own; these you can­not chuse but must needs acknowledge their election is sure in the sight of God, so as they cannot possibly perish.

And again, so many as God had called, justified, and sancti­fied, them you must needs acknowledge shall be glorified, and so cannot possibly perish: else you deny these plain expressions of the Holy Ghost before cited, and go about also, as hath been said, to put even the best and holiest men into doubts, and [Page 6]fears, whereas you should labour to edifie in the faith and not to destroy their faith.

So that I cannot imagine what you should possibly mean, or intend in this doctrine; unless you so judge as that the De­cree of God or counsel of his will before the world began, was not so capacious and comprehensious as to determine before hand what should certainly become of every particular person that should be begotten from the beginning to the end: But only determined with himself concerning the species or certain kinds of men, in the gross, or general and no further at all, as so you seem to express your self, saying,

There is no Election, or Decree of Election of particular persons as such, but only of an intire species of men from Eter­nity. In which assertion you plainly deny the omnisciency of God, and render him to us altogether blind in respect of par­ticulars till they be existent, and so you also exclude the Electi­on of Christ himself as hath been said, and every other parti­cular of the Elect of God, out of his eternal purpose: as though he had not known as well the particulars, as the gross and generall of all his works, from the beginning to the end.

Whereas the text is clear, that he worketh all things ac­cording to the counsel of his own will, Ephes. 1.11. And it is also clear that his understanding is Infinite, see Psal. 147.5.

So that he cannot possibly be ignorant any more of the par­ticulars than of the intire species, or sorts of people: for if he were ignorant of any thing; his understanding were not infi­nite.

And if he did any thing at all in time, that he had not pur­posed in himself in the counsel of his will before-time. Then he could not be said to work all things according to his own purpose, or the counsel of his will.

For if any particular work should be effected by him which he did not purpose in the Counsel of his will; that particular work could not properly be said to be effected according to the coun­sel of his will, nor as he had purposed in himself, if he did not purpose that very particular work.

Obj. But you it may be will object, That what is de­creed to be done to or concerning all such of the same kind or species, is also decreed to be done to every particular of such species or kinds of poople.

Answ. I answer, true; But upon what ground can you pos­sibly exclude out of the prescience or foreknowledge of God, the foresight and knowledge of every particular work that he ac­complisheth in time? How can you prove that he did not pur­pose that very particular work?

Can you possibly imagine that he did not foresee from the very beginning all, past, present, and future occurrences, that have been, are, or shall be effected to the very end? How dare you limit the Holy One of Israel and so diminish his Attri­butes? Whereas you well know His understanding is infi­nite.

Conseq. Therefore he is not ignorant of any occurrences from the beginning to the end. And though many things seem unpossible unto men, yet with God all things are possible saith our blessed Saviour.

Conseq. Therefore it is possible that he should foresee all and every particular effect and occurrences from the beginning to the end; this you cannot deny it were absurd if you should. And you know likewise that The very hairs of our heads are numbred; and that a sparrow falleth not to the ground with­out the will of our heavenly Father. Which one would think were matters of too little moment for our wise Father to reckon up, or regard, and take notice of. But the reason is, he being om­nipresent and omniscient and that eternally cannot possibly be ignorant of the least occurrences that may possibly insue. He being an infinite spirit, and all things being naked and open before him, and that from the very beginning, he declareth the end from the very beginning.

He saith unto Job, Where wast thou when I laid the foun­dation of the Earth? declare if thou hast understanding. See Job. 38.4.

By which it appeareth that the Lord well knew and could also declare where the very materials of Job were of which he was composed: and that from the very beginning.

And Job acknowledgeth also: I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be hid from thee. Chap. 24.

2. Nay he understandeth our thoughts long before we think them.

The Lord foresaw and discovered unto Moses what the peo­ple of Israel would do after his decease, and therefore gave him a propheticall song to be a witness against them. See Deut. 31.16. &c. to the 22. He knew their Imagination which they went about even then before he brought them into the land.

But I should hope that you would not stand in such conceits and misapprehensions as to set bounds and limits to the under­standing and knowledge of God, which is infinite and unsear­chable, and his waies in some things past finding out.

And if you will allow and do affirm with us that God was not ignorant what particular occurrences, both good and evill, should happen unto all both Elect and Reprobates, from the be­ginning to the end: Then we must needs infer, and that from your own assentings, that they are quite contradictory to your own assentings.

For you affirm page 1. particular the fourth, That the decrees of God concerning Election and Reprobation are abso­lutely Immutable and unchangeable.

Ar. From which I argue.

That if the Decree of God be unchangeable in respect of E­lection and Reprobation, And that from Eternity.

Conseq. Then it necessarily followeth; that he reproba­teth none whom he decreed to elect; Nor electeth any whom he decreed to reprobate. Provided alwaies, that, as hath been said, he was not ignorant of the particular persons both of the Elect and Reprobates, and of all occurrences that should ensue from the beginning to the end.

Ar. For if he was not ignorant of the particulars as to de­ny that we deny his omnisciency to be from eternity, and his understanding to be infinite, as hath been said.

Conseq. Then it is unpossible but his Decree and counsell and purpose of his will was perfect and compleat and clear in himself concerning every parricular both whom he would Elect [Page 9]and whom he would reprobate: And this precedent, perfect, and com­pleate decree, being granted also to be absolutely immutable and un­changeable,

Conseq. Then it is unpossible that any particular whom he de­creed to Elect actually in time, should become a Reprobate, nor any of those whom he decreed to Reprobate, should become his Elect.

Which quite contradicteth your first particular, wherein you dis­sent from us about this head of doctrine, wherein you affirm that God hath not decreed from eternity to elect any person of mankind upon a­ny terms, but that in case he liveth to years of discretion he may possi­bly perish, notwithstanding any such decree.

And the like arguments may be brought likewise against your 2d. particular, to wit,

That God hath not decreed from eternity the Reprobation of any person of mankind, considered as such, who may not very possibly be saved, any decree in God notwithstanding.

Much less do you hold a decree of Reprobation from Eternity a­gainst the farr greatest part of mankind, excluding a possibility of sal­vation.

For if you do assent That the decrees of God in these respects are absolutely immutable and unchangeable: your assent herein is quite contradictory to your dissenting, in this also, for the decree of God is as absolute in the one as in the other, and as unchangeable like­wise.

For his decrees shall stand, and he will do all his pleasure, Yea, He will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth, yea so many as he loves he will rebuke and chasten, and will give them repentance unto life that they may be saved; Yea, he will give them faith, for faith is the gift of God, Ephes. 2.8. saith the Apostle, For by grace ye are saved through faith, and that not of your selves, it is the gift of God. See verse 9, 10. It is therefore of God that some repent and believe, and so are saved, and not of themselves, nor for their good works, lest any man should boast.

But on the other part there are some others whom he blindeth and hardeneth, and shutteth or dulleth both their ears and hearts, lest they should repent and turn, and he should heal them.

And though you think it so unjust and partial, and unequal, and ne­ver so cross or opposite to your rationalitie, and to the essentiall at­tributes [Page 10]of God (as so you affirm page 81.) to wit,

That it is as a black thred of inconsistency with the attributes of God, to wit, his immutability, simplicity, wisdome, grace, good­ness, justice, and love to mankind; Insomuch that though you are most vehemently and even passionately inclined to unity and peace with your brethren in matters of faith, yet are you not able with the best of your understandings to reconcile their doctrines in the points dissented, with these glorious properties and perfections of our ever blessed God.

Yet it doth not therefore follow but the wisdome of God is able to convince you that these doctrines of your brethrens are fully and clealy reconcileable with these glorious properties and perfections of our blessed God.

And what know you but God may possibly use some very mean, and unworthy instrument, to convince you of it, that so the whole glory of the dispensation of such deep secrets might be given unto God, and not unto men.

And therefore accounting of my self both sufficiently mean, un­worthy and unlikely (as of my self) for such a business,

And having formerly been of the same mind in which I think you are in some particulars conceming these points, and by the grace of God have receivd satisfaction & full resolution from the word of truth, I shall make bold, though but such a man, to give you some hints how these glorious attributes of our blessed God may be fully cleared, and that to any rational apprehension in al these respects; If you please to read them with serious, mature, and deliberate consideration, and with impartial minds, and a resolution to act accordingly; for then you have a pro­mise to know of the doctrine whether it be of God or but of humane invention.

And this I shall indeavour as it pleaseth God to give me utter­ance.

But according as you require I shall first follow you in your own reasons and sense which causeth you to dissent in these particulars from your acknowledged brethren.

Wherein I shall make it appear that these your reasons stand in di­rect opposition against the wisdome of God, Who can make it appear he is wiser than men.

Reas. 1. You say we judge that the threatnings of damnation in [Page 11]the scriptures to and against believers in case of apostacie, &c. to be absolutely inconsistent with a peremptory intent in God to save them, as Ezek. 18.24. Mat. 18.3. compared with verse 1. Rom. 8.13. compared with Rom. 1.6, 7, 8. And again you judge it a very senseless part in a father to give his child a compleat assurance under hand and seal that he will make him his heir against all possi­ble interveniencies whatsoever, And yet presently threaten him if he be not dutifull to disinherit him.

Answ. I answer, that you either in this therefore erre be­cause you know not the Scriptures, nor the power of God, Or else you willfully oppose even the wisdome of God, as accounting it foolish­ness.

For you cannot but know that thus it is in the promulgation of the Gospell. And that it is commanded, and ought to be preach­ed unto all in generall, like a draw-net cast into the Sea: And the promise and threatning to be preached together, and not single by them­selves; to wit, He that repenteth and believeth shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be condemned.

Now this notwithstanding that you know it thus commanded, yet in your wisdome it is inconsistent with a peremptory decree to save some and to damn others; and you judge it a senseless part in God, as in a Father, to give his children compleat assurance, and after threat­en to disinherit them in case of disobedience: As if you had quite for­gotten that it had so pleased him as by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe, and whom he predestinates to the end, he also predestinates to the means. And those who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation, yet he rebuketh and chasteneth them, and threatneth them also if they be not obedient; yea, and deserteth them also, & hideth his face, as though he had forsaken them: And all this likewise after he hath given them assurance of eternal life through Jesus Christ, as I hope you know, that after a full assurance in times of desertion men may stand in doubt: it was so with David and many others; many eb­bings and flowings in respect of strength and weakness of faith there is found in all by ordinary experience. But to proceed, you in your judgement have already judged it a very senseless part in a Father to give a child a compleat assurance under hand and seal, and particu­lar the 3d. you account of an enemy unto godliness, and that the result of it must needs make men remiss, loose, and indifferent in the service of [Page 12]God, &c. Whereas the wisdome of God hath already judged it a means to make us more zealous and cordiall: and therefore it is that he giveth knowledge of salvation to his people by the remission of their sins, that they might serve him without fear in holiness and righteous­ness all the daies of their lives. And fear hath torment in it, you know, and he that feareth is not yet perfect in love.

Arg. But we ought to endeavour to be perfect in love, and are bid also Fear not little flock, &c.

Conseq. Therfore it followeth, that in the wisdom of God, & through his love to his people, he would have them to attain perfection both in faith and love, See 1 John 5.10, 11, 12, 13. yea even such degrees whereby they might have strong consolation, and whereby their joy might be full, and therefore he biddeth them ask and they shall re­ceive it. And the Apostle John writeth unto them purposely that they might know that they have eternal life, and sheweth them by what signs they may certainly know it; to wit, by their faith and love which God had given them: he that believeth on the sonne of God saith he, hath the witness in himself.

Conseq. Therefore it followeth, he that thus believeth can never pe­rish, For who can pluck them out of the hands of God who is greater than all? and who can terminate an eternall life. And he that knoweth he believeth on the blessed name of the sonne of God, and that loveth God, and loveth his brethren for their likeness unto God, may certainly know that he hath already this eternal life abiding in him, and that he shall never perish. And by how much stronger confi­dence any man attains, and fuller assurance of faith, through the grace of God: By so much the more shall his love abound, and so by conse­quence his zeal in religion, and cordiallness in service will be the grea­ter.

And whereas you say, who will strain and toil himself in run­ning for such a prize which he knowes he shall as certainly obtain by going an easie, soft, and ordinary pace?

I answer, you speak in this as though all Gods elect were at the first assured, and had no need to strive to enter in at the strait gate, or to make their calling and election sure.

And as though it were all one what degrees and measures of faith and holiness we attain unto, and whether we be rich or poor, both in faith and good works.

As though degrees of grace, and measures and multiplicity of good works and sufferings, &c. should not add unto us a far more excellent and eternal weight of immortal glory.

Whereas I know you know it, and will acknowledge there shall be great inequality of reward both to the Elect and Reprobates though nothing contradictious to justice or equality in respect of desert: But suitable to their works according to their works, whether better or worse, yea, more or fewer, as the Scripture is clear. And therefore I cannot but wonder to see you propose this as an argu­ment.

For as the Apostle saith, They that run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize. All Gods Elect may be said to run, but not all alike for celeritie and attainments, some of the first shall be last, and some of the last shall be first, in respect of attainments to degrees and measures of faith and love, which are (essentially) in Christ Je­sus.

Now for answer to your second particular Reason, page 3. the which I over-skipped to answer the first and third both at once being one in substance, I onely answer thus much briefly, That they are very children in understanding that cannot refell this argument, to wit, that because the decree of God hath so adjudged some particu­lar persons to eternall life through Jesus Christ, as so you know we affirm, that he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world was laid, and not peculiarly without him and his sufferings, &c.

Therefore yet you infer That such an election is extremely inju­rious to the death of Christ, and utterly dissolveth the necessitie of it. Which cannot be resented from such knowing men, but as purposely intended to deceive the simple: You knowing the principles of all understanding men to be quite contrary, and too well fortifyed to be deceived with such inconsequent assertions: For it is but thus much in effect, to wit,

Because in the prescienceor foreknowledge and counsel of his will he hath chosen us in Christ, to be saved eternally through his death and sufferings, and for his sake: Ergo, Such ad Election is extreme­ly injurious to the death of Christ, and utterly dissolveth the necessi­ty of it.

How extremely injurious unto Rationality this argument is, I leave to all, yea, even Children of ten years of age, to judge the re­of.

4. I come now to answer your fourth Argument, where you bold­ly affirm, That such a notion of Election layes the greatest part of the necessity of preaching of the word in the very dust, &c.

To which I answer, your Argument is a meer non sequitur, for it is all but thus much, to wit.

Arg. Because it hath pleased God to determine before the foun­dation of the world to save those that believe through the preaching of the word, and through Christ, &c.

Ergo, the preaching of the word, or to perswade men to attend thereupon, is in vain and needless, for the Elect shall as certainly be saved, &c. If they should not do it.

You have forgotten I suppose how Paul was inhibited to go unto such a place because they would not receive his doctrine, but was sent unto another, and bid to speak boldly, &c. because he had much people in that City: For you might know if such Scriptures could down with you, That whom he foreknew, them he also predestinated to be conform'd to the image of his Son, and whom he predestinated them he also called, and whom he called them he also justified, and whom he justified them he also glorified.

5. In your fifth Argument you take upon you to argue directly, and bring a false slander upon the Wisdome, Holiness, Mercy and Ju­stice of God: For your Argument were good if rightly grounded. But your ground-work, which without all question you take for granted, is manifestly untrue.

For though all have sinned, and are therefore deprived of the glory of God, and are only saved through Jesus Christ, yea Jews by na­ture being Children of wrath as well as others,

Yet it doth not follow that all by nature are in their child-hood and minority alike sinful, alike wrathful, or alike unclean, but in the sight of God, and sometimes of men likewise, there is great difference, though I must confess if any ask me who maketh thee to differ, and what hast thou that thou hast not received, I must acknowledge God himself hath done it.

But this I affirm, and can make it manifest, that there was a differ­ence even betwixt Jacob and Esau, in their Mothers Womb, Else [Page 15]it had never been said, I have loved Jacob, and have hated E­sau.

And so the holy Ghost telleth us the wicked are estranged from the Womb, they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies, &c. and as Moses hath testified, the efficient cause is not in God, but tel­leth us plainly They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his Children, they are a crooked and perverse generation; they are perversly generated; some generations of Vipers, some chil­dren of wickedness, because spiritual wickedness was the productive cause of their generation; some sonnes of Belial, for Satan was the cause of their generation, and therefore though they were Abra­hams children after the flesh, yet our Saviour telleth them They were of their father the Devil, and would do his works.

And some also are called Children of the flesh in opposition to him that was born by promise, to wit, At such a time will I come unto thee, and Sarah shall have a Son; The Lord himself was the chief cause of his generation, it was he that separated him from the loines of his Parents, of free accord, whereas the devill, the world, or sin­full flesh was the cause of the begetting of some others, as hath been clearly shewed; but of this more fully in another place.

But you may hereby see and be more cautious for ever after of bla­ming the wisdome and holiness of God because you see not how your selves forsooth can clear it up.

You might as well have said, If he have mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth, he is doubtless unjust, unmerciful, unholy, unwife: which I for my part if I should have said it, it had been blasphemous in me, but I hope you did it igno­rantly, and therefore upon repentance may find mercy.

6. To your sixth I answer, That no man that ever I heard, spake of any more decrees of Election but one, yet there are so many particular actual elections as there are particular persons Elected from the loins of their parents, as the chief cause of their generation, and this is their election when they are thus separated to be vessels of mercy prepared unto glory.

But God is not the cause of the generation as chiefly predominant, but only permissive of the propagation of any children but his own E­lect

7. Your seventh I answer by way of Retortion or countercharge, [Page 16]That we do conceive that all the passages and texts of Scriptures which you produce and argue for the establishment of your errours are meerly irrelative to such a purpose, all them forced against their native and proper imports respectively to serve in this warfare, being all very ca­pable of a more orthodox, fair, and Christian interpretation than that which you make subservient to your opinions.

8. To the eighth in like manner I retort, we can find no compe­tent, indeed no tolerable satisfaction in any of those arguments which you our brethren are wont to levie and insist upon for the maintenance and Defence of your erronious doctrine; to wit, that there is no electi­on or decree of election of particular persons as such, but only of an in­tire species of men from eternity; see your Arg. 9.

But do judge in our souls and consciences that through the grace of God we shall be enabled to give a Rational, fair, and Christian account of their insufficiency and weakness.

9. To the ninth I answer, that it hath more confirmed us in the truth, because we find both from your pens and mouths, and that very frequently, such very expressions as are palpable inconsistencies, and that your doctrine cumbreth and thwarteth plain texts of Scripture, and wholesome necessary truths in Christian Religion, and that ma­ny orthodox and worthy doctrines cannot be pertinently nor effectual­ly mannaged if we receive the influence, and seek the aid, of this your principle, to wit, that there is no election or decree of election of parti­cular persons as such, but only of an intire species of men from eternity.

For we affirm there is both, whereas your position denyeth the truth of these Scriptures, Ephes. 1.4.11. 1 Pet. 1.2. Rom. 9.6.7.8. to 19. Acts 13.48. To the first argument for your dissent in the second particular, I answer, that we believe these Scrip­tures to be really true, and that God doth intend as he here expresseth: & we do believe, that however wicked men are by nature and by generati­on, if God give them repentance unto life, so as that he doth save them, this is nothing else but what he had decreed before the foundation of the world, and that such very persons were chosen in Christ, and pre­destinated to the adoption of Sons: And that he never intended to re­probate those persons, and therefore gave them repentance, and did not suffer them to obdurate and remain impenitent, nor doth any decree of his necessitate them or any other impulsively to continue in such im­penitency; but permissively it doth, For he suffereth with long pati­ence [Page 17]the vessels of warth fitted to destruction, Rom. 9. and that purposely to shew his wrath (against) and hatred (of) sin, and to make his power known. And who are you that reply against God? as if his justice and mercy should impell and necessitate the salvation of all, or else you will contest and quarrel against him as you do herein, espe­cially in your second Reason, accounting it as a bowelless and mercy­less Reprobation of the far greater part of mankind, which yet you cannot deny but the words of Christ himself import so much if we may believe him, Wide is the Gate, &c. and many go in thereat: But in your apprehensins these words of Christ are utterly inconsistent with those pathetical, affectionate, and bowel-breathing wishes or desires of God for the peace and prosperity even of the vilest men, as you imagine; Whereas these were all spoken too and concerning his peculiar people; that they might have been happy, and their poste­rities after them, if they had kept his commandments; and this he speak­eth after the manner of men; and if they had been obedient it had bin so with them; but we dare not conclude that God knew not before how they would carry and demean themselves, for then we should deny his understanding to be infinite: but these are spoken for our in­couragement, and for our imitation, and there should be in us such like bowels & earnest desires as there was in Christ consider'd as man, to wit, that men would repent, and return and live; and they ought to perswade what they can thereto, and such who so do are instrumentall in the hand of God for the good of many, and shall doubless receive a reward suitable.

3. Your third Reason is in effect but the same with this, Intending to prove it as a brand of crueltie and folly if God should reprobate his own, as the Ostrich is cruell against her young ones. And to this I assent if he should be cruel to his own elect, and that is all you can make of it.

4. Reason the fourth you proceed on in the same tone, replying and arguing against God, because He doth reprobate the greatest part of men, as if because we are lineally descended from the loins of Adam we were all alike by generation, and in alike measure children of wrath: which I have already answered that it is not so.

And further I adde for your fuller conviction, that all reprobates are the natural off-spring, and fruit of sin, and are the children of the wicked one, that is, the devil, in that respect: for it was the devil [Page 18]that sowed the tares, that is to say sin, in the heats of our first parents, which have brought forth more tares, than the good seed, which was of God, and was left as a Remnant of the image of God in our first parents, hath yet produced; So that it is not proper to say of the wicked, that they are lineally descended from God, through the loines of Adam, who was his son; but were blasphemous in me to speak it; because I thus apprehend and know it to be true.

5. You proceed, That all particular persons of mankind without exception of any, were in Adam before his fall.

From whence you gather, If they were in him before his fall, they must be in the same state, and condition of righteousness and holi­ness with him; and consequently of grace, favour and acceptance with God. Now we judge it clearly impossible that any person should at the same time be in an estate of righteousness or of grace and favour with God, and yet under a severe decree of Reprobation also, so that we cannot but conceive such a decree of Reprobation from eternity as our brethren maintain, to be a meer and plain Impossibi­litic.

Answ. I answer, all mankind was originally in his loins, and he was made righteous, but they were not personally in him: But suppose it true, do not you conceive, that the Angells that sinned, and are cast down, and become devils, were created perfect and pure from sin, and so in favour with God, whiles they so continued? yet were at that very time under a severe decree of eternall Reprobation; had not God decreed, and determined with himself, to suffer them to sin, and fall as they did: and so in like manner, to suffer man also to be seduced by him, cannot you believe it, that his decrees are unchanga­ble, as you grant at the first, and that God acteth nothing, in time, but what he decreed from eternity; And that the Scripture expresly holdeth forth, both a decree of Election, and a decree of Reprobati­on in God, as you said you agreed with your brethren in that, as in the 1.4.5. particulars?

But whether then have your arguments lead you, that you here ac­count it a plain Impossibility? so that the decree of God was nothing at all from eternity concerning Reprobation, either of Angels or men, though the Scripture telleth us, that some were of old ordained unto condemnation.

And some as natural brute beasts are made to be taken, and to be [Page 19]destroyed, speaking evill of the things they understand not, and shall utterly perish in their own corruption, 2 Pet. 2.12.

And let me but ask you, doth he not will now, what he willed be­fore, even from eternity? is his will changed, or doth he will any thing now that he did not then? But saith the Apostle What if he willing to shew his wrath, and make his power known, suffer with long patience the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; But if these were the ends of suffering these vessels, then it must needs follow that in the decree of God, he had this purpose in himself, as Ephes. 1.9. where it is also said verse 11. That he worketh all things according to the Counsel of his own will; so that we cannot believe, that he either doth, or suffereth to be done, any thing at all, but according to the counsel of his own will: For he that could foresee to predestinate such who are his Elect, to the adoption of Children by Jesus Christ in him­self according to the Good pleasure of his will, as Ephes. 1.5. could not possibly be ignorant whom he should harden unto condemnation. It were therefore wisdome, if you could not comprehend the justness of his decree in this respect, yet not to make such imperious and bold conclusions, whiles you cannot reconcile these you: subtill argu­ments with these texts of Scripture; for all Scripture is true, and must not be broken, to comply with our fancies, and weak apprehen­sions.

6. But Argument sixth you speak more boldly, for because all things were in God, and in his will, and power, before he created them and made them visible; Therefore you will needs make man, and not man only, but all things whatsoever, to be nothing really but God himself: according as you say it is a known maxim, whatsoever is in God is God.

The which maxim in one sense may be true, to wit, whatsoever is in God Attributably and Essentially is God: but it is well known that all things yet still are really in God, but no creature can in any pos­sibility be God himself, for every creature is something else: and therfore I much wonder that a whole Church should assert such doctrine.

And before the creation, when all things were in God, they were then no more God himself, than the dung that is contained in the in­ternal parts, of the bellie of man, is the man himself; And so by consequence, notwithstanding your bold Logick, God is no more the object of his own Reprobation, nor can no more be said to reject [Page 20]himself, or harden himself, than a man is said to reject himself when he casteth forth his most noisome dung; and therefore I might well retort it upon you, that you knowing these things, and that some are rejected, and eternally damned, should produce such an argument, as if it did hold true, might induce the ignorant to blaspeme the name of the lord our God, to their own destruction.

7. To the seventh I answer that God doth not say unto all, and e­very person of mankind, If thou believest, thou shalt be saved: But as purposely revealing his decree, so far as he hath thought fit to let us know, his expressions are thus; He that repenteth and believeth shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be condemned. So that your commission is for both, and you ought to preach both, and not the one single; for then you hide some part of the counsel of God: And so your Major being gone, your Minor fails, and is not worth answering.

8. This eighth argument, is the same in effect with the other, and no better grounded. It seems you are much offended, that the Gospel must be preached unto all the world, and yet none but the Elect take hold of it by a lively faith, for their salvation; Now you it may be would be so wise, as to cull them forth, and tell them all plainly, you I have chosen, and you the rest are Reprobates. Thus you re­prove and reproach even the Wisdome of God himself, and yet therin shew but your own folly: for if the Gospel should be preached peculi­arly to the Elect, and they pointed out and distinguished, &c. how should the rest be hardened? they would presently despair; and how should the Gospel be preached unto all nations for a witness against them, and to be unto them, as so God hath appointed it, the savor of death unto death, and a means to restrain them, &c?

9. You judge our doctrine not to be a doctrine according to godly­ness, and that it is most perniciously destructive to the interest and advancement of Godliness in the world: for first as you say it presents the Gospel unto men like a Lottery, wherin are many blanks, but few prizes.

To which I answer, that if you be so sober, and considerate, as not to meddle with it, nor adventure upon it, till you make it good, That all that hear it are Gods Elect, and shall certainly be sav­ed;

It is very doubtfull you will reject salvation, and come short of hea­ven: [Page 21]but if you can make it out, it is a comfortable doctrine; they deserve to give you treble honour to our best Doctors.

And as for answer to your second case, we do not use to perswade men they are Reprobates upon every declining or miscarriage, for then we should teach it in this case to you, who in these respects have declined the truth, but we apply unto them such precious promises wherby we our selves have been comforted of God, when Satan hath suggested such like doctrines into our minds to destroy our faith, as these of yours, to wit, that notwithstanding our Election, yet we may possibly perish: And the truth is, that these and such like arguments, if it were possible, they might deceive even the very elect, but they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation, blessed be his name, and can never perish, neither can any pluck them out of his hands.

10. You judge also that such a decree of Reprobation is diame­trally repugnant to all those blessed Manifestoes or Declarations made by God himself of the riches of his Grace, Mercy, Love, Kindness, Goodness, Compassion, Patience, Long-Suffering, Boun­ty unto the world. See Exod. 34.6, 7. Psalm. 8.15.111.4. Job 3.16. Tit. 3.4. Psal. 145.8, 9. to omit other places without number.

Answ. I have searched these Scriptures, but find no repugnancie in them against our doctrine, but I find in the first, Exodus 34.6, 7. That as God is merciful and gratious, long suffering, and abun­dant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving i­niquitie and transgression and sin;

So also that he will by no means clear the guilty, but visiteth the iniquities of the Fathers upon the children, and upon the childrens children unto the third and fourth generation. See also for this Jer. 32.18, 19. see Isa. 14.20, 21, 22. though you will storm and fret at this, as unjust in God, who is able to answer you, and will one day, yea and clear it to be just, notwithstanding all your Logick, and that to your own consciences; though now for the present you are dark in the business, how it can be just to visit, &c. of which more here­after in its due place.

11. You say in your eleventh reason, That you cannot find any mention, nor the least intimation of any such decree of Reprobation in the Scriptures.

To which I answer, I am sorry to hear that a whole Church should be so ignorant of the Scriptures, and so well vers'd in humane do­ctrines, injuriously wrested from some particular places, which were never intended for such a sense: you are not herein like the noble Be­reans.

However I shall speak unto you in Scripture language, but I will not cite the places to you, I hope you know it is contained in Scri­pture, That he worketh all things according to the counsell of his will, and that his counsell shall stand, and he will do all his pleasure; yea, He hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will he hardeneth; yea, some are said to be of old ordained unto condemnation, and as brute beasts are made to be taken and to be destroyed; And he made all things for himself, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil; for he hath power, and justly too, as the Potter of his clay, to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour, and that of the same clay; such whom he maketh as vessels of wrath unto dishonour, he maketh on purpose that he may shew his wrath: and he is able to an­swer it upon what accompt he maketh such vessels, and to convince the consciences of all men whomsoever that it is but just, and will one day do it, against all their cavils, so as every mouth shall be stop­ped: for shall we think it possible, but he that is the Judge of all the world should do right? it were absurd to think it. You say you Gather by many things comming from them occasionally, That your brethren would willingly enough let go their doctrine of Repro­bation if they knew how to retain their doctrine of Election without it.

Answ. It may well be that your brethren would not much strive with you about this doctrine, if they could help it; though they know it is true. But if you cannot teach them, how it is possible that this Doctrine of Election, which is very clear from express Scriptures, can possibly chuse, but must necessarily draw after it this premised Do­ctrine of Reprobation, they will acknowledge you to be far more ra­tional than any of them.

12. We clearly and very frequently find (you say) both in the writings and oral discourses of the Patrons of the said decree of Re­probation, such sayings and passages which we know not how to recon­cile with this decree, and consequently cannot but judge such a decree to be very disharmonious to the true strains and doctrins of the Gospel.

Answ. The best patronage we have for it, is the word of God; and it is all that we dare cleave too, to make it out.

But if your consequence and judgement be groundedly raised, to wit, That our doctrines are not harmonious with the Gospel, then upon the same ground we may pass our judgement infallibly upon yours.

1. For as hath been shewed, you first agree with us that The Scrip­ture expresly holdeth forth and asserteth both a decree of Election and a decree of Reprobation in God.

2. And that these decrees were in God from Eternity or before the foundatiens of the world were laid.

3. And that both these decrees as well as all others attributable to God, are really and simply God himself.

4. And that these decrees as all others in God are like God himself absolutely immutable and unchangeable, &c.

And then in your very first particular of your dissent from us, you quite contradict what you assented to, as hath been argued before, and represent unto us the counsel and decree of God, as changeable as the Moon, or as the mind of man, as if the counsel of God were wholly dependent on the will of man, as if the wisdome of God were not perfect and full for making his decrees absolute, till he receive instructions from the actings of men how he should judge them; you say it is possible, notwithstanding his Decree of Election, that his Elect should perish, and notwithstanding his Decree of Reprobation of any particular person, yet he may possibly be saved.

Now we shall freely accord, that some particular persons, which you or we think to be his Elect may possily perish, or whom we think to be Reprobates, may possibly be saved.

But to avouch it possible, that the Decree of God, concerning par­ticular persons, is changeable, We dare not do it, unless you can assure us that he did not foresee from the beginning, who should be saved, and who should perish.

But all his sheep, all his Elect, are chosen in Christ before the foun­dation of the world, that they should be holy and without blame be­fore him in love, Ephes. 1.4. and they are also predestinate to be conformed to the Image of his sonne: These all being the Sheep of Christ, hear his voice, and he knoweth them, and they follow him, and he giveth unto them eternal lise, and they shall never perish, nei­ther [Page 24]shall any man pluck them out of his hand, his father who gave hem to him is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of his fathers hand; And he and his father are one. See Jo. 10.27, 28, 29, 30.

And all the reason that Christ renders why others believed not, is because they were not his sheep, verse 26. they were none of his Elect.

3. Now your third particular head of doctrine, wherin you say you dissent from us, is,

That God hath not decreed the Reprobation of any infant, dying before the commission of actual sin.

Answ. I answer, I was once of your mind in this particular, and was so perswaded upon the same grounds that you here hold forth.

But through the grace of God was long since resolved that it was not true.

First I thought as in your fourth reason, That the case of all infants dying before the commission of actual sin to be one and the same, be­cause I apprehended they were all alike, and in a like measure by na­ture children of wrath one as well and as much as another, and so either all saved or all damned.

But I could not believe they were all damned for such like rea­sons as you here allege, therefore I concluded, they were certain­ly saved.

But upon better consideration, as it pleased God to give me to un­derstand that though Jews by nature were children of wrath as well as Gentiles, which is the proper scope of that expression, Ephes. 2.3. as will appear by the context, and not that every particular child, is by nature alike, and in the same measure polluted with sin, but though all were polluted in the sight of God, Christ himself excepted, yet there was great difference and disparitie amongst them in the sight of God, which put me quite into another mind, and searching the Scriptures, I was presently confirmed quite the contrary. I shall therefore hold forth such Scriptures and reasons, as confirmed me, and gave me full re­solves in any question that could be proposed concerning this doctrine of Election and Reprobation.

And first then for proof, that all children when new born, are not in the same measure flesh, nor alike fleshly, nor that they are all alike, [Page 25]and in the same measure sinful; or vessels of wrath, or in the State of wrath, nor alike beloved or hated of God, nor alike unclean or clean in his sight. It will evidently appear from the word of God: Though I do not say I can make this difference appear unto men, whiles they are unborn, yet it will appear that there is then such dif­ference in the sight of God.

1. As first I argue; If God loveth one thing and hateth another, there is certainly a difference, and disparity, betwixt those things, in the sight of God.

Rea. For he loveth the good, and hateth the evil, and cannot both hate and love the very self same thing; nor as he cannot chuse but hate the evil, so he cannot but love, whatever is good, for every good proceedeth of God. And it were no less than blasphemie, to say he loveth the evil, or hateth the good, as it may well be said of some wicked men who alwaies do so.

Nor we may not say, that the love or hatred of our wise God, is without a cause, and that just and clear, to his own comprehension, though not ours.

Assum. But he loved Jacob and hated Esau when they were in the womb, and had neither of them done either good or evil.

Conseq. Ergo, there was difference in the sight of God, when they were in the womb, one was then a vessel of wrath in fitting for destruction, and the other was doubtless a vessel of mercy in pre­paring for glory.

Arg. 2. If children were all alike by nature after their propa­gation from the loines of their parents, and that there were no differ­ence (but as all are polluted and all are defiled, either less or more, Christ himself excepted) so all were alike polluted and a like defiled, by means of generation, being conceived in iniquitie.

Conseq. 1. Then it would follow, that the just Lord, who will doe no iniquity, and who is Judge of all the World, should not doe right, In visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate him; And shewing mercy unto thousands, to them that love him, and keep his Com­mandements.

Conseq. 2. And then it would likewise follow, that it were all one, and no greater disparagement to be the children of fooles, and children of base men, that are viler than the earth, than the proper seed of such [Page 26]as love God, and keepe his Commandements. See Job 30.8.

Conjeq. 3. And then it would follow, that the Apostle said not true when he said, Else your children were uncleane, but now are they holy, 1 Cor. 7.14, If it be so, that all children being new borne be a­like uncleane, or alike holy, and in the same measure.

Conseq. 4. And then it would follow, that it is all one whether we possesse our vessels in holinesse and in honour, or in the lust of concupi­scence, like such as know not God; If by that meanes, our seed when propagated, should not be the better, and the more holy and honour­able in the sight of God. See 1 Thes. 4.4, 5.

Conseq. 5. It would follow, that there were unrighteousnesse with God in that fevere exclusion of Ammonites, and Moabites, and Ba­stards likewise, from entring into the congregation of the Lord, to their tenth generation. Deur. 23.2, 3, 4.

Conseq. 6. Then it were all one to be as Ishmael, borne after the flesh; as to be borne as Isaac, a child of promise; to wit, At such a time will I come unto thee, and Sarah shall have a sonne. See Gal. 4.23, 28. and Rom. 9.8, 9. Gen: 18.10.

Conseq. 7. Then it would follow, that the fruits and operations of the Spirit, are all alike good, in the sight of God, with the fruits, and effects, and operations of the flesh, if we must expect to reape the same fruits, or the like effects. And then it is no matter of walking in the spirit, that we might not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. And so adul­tery, fornication, uncleannesse, lasciviousnesse, evill concupiscence, and inordiuate affections, are all one in effect with love, joy, peace, long­suffering, gentlenesse, goodnesse, faith, meeknesse, temperance; as Gal. 5.16, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23. and Eph. 1.2, 3, 4, 5, 6, &c. to 13. Col. 3.5, 6. Then it were all one to walke after the spirit, or to be drawn away by our owne lusts, and entised; and so when lust hath conceived, (saith the Apostle Iames) it bringeth forth sinne; and sinne when it is finished bringeth forth death: whereas every good gift, and every perfect gift, cometh from above, Jam. 1.14, 15, 16, 17. and Chap. 3.17. Whereas all other affections are but from beneath, earthly, sensuall, or devilish, vers. 15. Yea then it is all one to sow to the flesh as to the spirit; yea to make provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof, as to sow to the spirit, if we may expect the same fruits, Gal. 6.6. And so all these Scriptures untrue and vaine. See also Rom. 8. to 15.

Conseq. 8. Then it would follow, that it might as properly be spo­ken of the Elect, as of the wicked, Psal. 58.3, 4; 5. to wit, The wicked are estranged from the wombe, they goe astray as soone as they be borne, speaking lyes. Their poyson is as the poyson of aserpent; they are like the deafe adder that stoppeth her eare, which will not hearken to the voyce of charmers, charming never so wisely.

Conseq. 9. And so by consequence we may pray as David, against not onely the wicked, but all mankind; to wit, Breake their teeth O God, &c. vers. 6, 7, 8. and prophesy as vers. 9. How sud­dainly they shall be destroyed, at which the righteous shall rejoyce; as vers. 10, 11.

Conseq. 10. Then it would follow, that all generations are alike, and have the same spot, or stampe and temper of spirit; contrary to that text, Deut. 32.5. to wit, They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children, they are a perverse and crooked ge­neration. And contrary to those various expressions of the sorts of ge­nerations that we reade of in Scripture; as Prov. 30.11. to wit,

There is a generation that curseth their father, and that doth not blesse their mother.

There is a generation that are pure in their owne eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthinesse, v. 12.

There is a generation, Oh how lofty are their eyes, and their eye­lids are lifted up, v. 13.

There is a generation whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw-teeth as knives, to destroy the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men, v. 14.

And contrary to our ordinary experience, as for the most part it is: for though godly parents may have some prophane children, and pro­phane parents may have some godly children; yet for the most part, as the Scripture speakes, it is found by experience, that like father like sonne, like mother like daughter: For by generation their like­nesse is stamped, or propagated from them, in the very seed of generati­on; so that generations of vipers are a viperous brood; and therefore Iohn the Baptist wondred much, who had forew arned such to fly from the wrath to come; And an evill and an adulterous generation, are an evill and an adulterous brood: and therefore was that though they sought a signe, there should be no signe given unto them, but the signe of the Prophet Jonas.

And againe, some are called children of wickednesse, because wic­kednesse was predominant, and the chiefe cause of their generati­ons.

And some againe are called children of the Devill, sonnes of Belial, and are therefore said to be of their father the Devill by Christ him­selfe, though of the Jewish nation; and therefore Christ told them plainly, they did and would doe their fathers workes or lusts, John 8.44. and 1 John 3.8. He that committeth sinne is of the Devill: Cain was of the wicked one, and slew his brother, v. 12.

And on the other part, some are called, ‘An holy generation, a cho­sen generation, the generation of the Just which shall be blessed; the off-spring of God, a righteous seed, a seed left us as a remnant, when others are destroyed; yea a seed which the Lord hath blessed, and of whom he testifieth, that he formed them from the wombe, and that he will helpe them, and that he will poure his Spirit upon their seed, and his blessing upon their off-spring, and they shall spring up as a­mong the grasse, as willowes by the water-courses: One shall say, I am the Lords, and another shall call himselfe by the name of Ia­cob, and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the Lord, and simame himselfe by the name of Israel, Isa. 44.3, 4, 5.’ Salomon was no sooner borne, but David by the Spirit of prophecy called his name Jadidiah, because the Lord loved him; and whom he loves once, he loves to the end. He saith allso to Ieremiah, Before I formed thee in the wombe I knew thee, and before thou camest out of the wombe I sanctified thee, &c. Jerem. 1. and Iohn the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost in his mothers womb, and sprang in her womb at the voyce of Mary for gladnesse of spirit. And the Lord Jesus Christ, though he was perfect man, and borne of flesh in some respect: yet in respect of his spirit, or mind, or qualification, he was the Lord from heaven, and that allso when he was in the wombe, and had notacted as man either good or evill.

And give me leave to aske you: Is it all one, and may we possibly expect as godly a seed, if the sonnes of God shalt take them wives of the daughters of men, or of the daughters of Heth, or daughters of Be­lial, infidels, unclean, unholy, unrighteous, such as are haters of God. See Gen. 6.2. and 2 Cor: 14.15, 16, 17, 18. and 1 Cor: 7.14, 15. Exod. 20.5?

As if they take them wives of a quite contrary temper, disposition, [Page 29]and carriage, such as are holy and honourable, faithfull and virtuous, loving and amiable, of a meeke and quiet spirit, which in the sight of the Lord is a thing much set by.

Is there not plaine expressions quite contradictory each to other? To wit,

The generation of the just shall be blessed, but the name of the wic­ked shall rot, Prov. [...] And Isa. 14.20. The seed of evill doers shall never be renowned for ever: and therefore it is said, Prepare a slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their parents, that they doe not rise up, nor possesse the land, nor fill the face of the world with ci­ties; or as in our translation, with (enemies.) Who can expect, but that the proper fruit, or children of such parents, should likewise fill up the measure of their parents; or such as are serpents, generations of vi­pers, should possibly escape the damnation of hell. See Mat. 31.32, 33.

From all which I argue: If some be holy, and some be unholy, when they are in the seed; and that in the very wombe, when they have not done either good or evill, and are therefore accordingly be­loved or hated;

Then it necessarily followeth, that there is great disparity, and a vast difference when they are in the wombe, and have not done either good or evill; much more then, when they are come to more maturity, and are brought forth allso; for as they grow in ripenesse, they grow in difference; and to be briefe and plaine, the difference is so great, as hath beene clearly shewed, that some are properly sonnes of God, through Jesus Christ, whilst they are in the wombe; and some are as properly the sonnes of Belial: for as the first are begotten through the powerfull operation of the Spirit of God, sanctifying the minds and affections of parents, and giving them grace, and affections suitable for generation, and to possesse their vessels in holinesse and in honour, and so their seed is holy in a great measure, in the sight of God, through his owne grace. So on the other part, the other are begotten through the powerfull operations of the Devill, the World, and their owne corrupt and fleshly desires, which by the infligation of him that ruleth in the aire, and in the children of disobediee, are kindled and enflamed with desires and affections, wicked and perverse, and such as are un­holy in the sight of God, possessing their vessels in the lust of concupi­scence, as hath beene said: So their very seed is polluted and uncleane [Page 30]in the sight of God, when they have not done either good or evill; as Iacob and Esau.

However, If those that are thus wicked and uncleane before him, shall be by any meanes perswaded to repent and turne from such their wickednesse, and dee that which is lawfull and right before him, they shall surely live; for the Lord hath testified, he desireth not the death even of him that dieth, nor hath no pleasure in it, but rather that he should repent and live. See Prov. 11.30. and Philemon v. 10, 19. and Iam. 5.19, 20. and verse 16, 17, 18. and Dan. 12.3. So that it is possi­ble they may be converted, and repent, and live. Though it cannot be denied, but God hath determined whom he will save, and whom he will condemne; for so saith the Scripture, His understanding is infi­nite, Psal. 33.11, 12. to 20. Therefore he cannot be ignorant whom he hath elected, and whom he will harden: But this counsell is secret, and ought not by us to be determined, till it manifestly appeare by ef­fects and fiuits, as we can discover by the Word of God, and by the sacred testimony of his holy Spirit, which doubtlesse will witnesse, e­ven with our owne spirits, at one time or other, ere we depart this life, that we are sonnes of God, if we be his Elect, and then we are sure we shall never perish: But this sacred testimony may be kept backe till our last houre, and yet we may be saved; and therefore we ought not to despaire, whilest we have our breath, neither of our selves, nor others: but must consider, that as his understanding, so his mercy and justice are both infinite, and kisse each other, according to equity and ju­stice.

In your fourth Reason of your dissent from us, in your third par­ticular, you say,

Answ. I answer, That it evidently appeareth that all your whole doctrine wherein you dissent from us, in all your five particulars, hang­eth chiefly upon one pinne, wherein all the fallacy of your whole fa­bricke is dependant: the which pinne being once proved a fallacy, and so broken off as a meer device of mans braine, and no Scripture truth, all your whole fabricke falls to the ground: and therefore it is, that I have chiefly encountered with this one false principle, and let the most part of your other dissentings alone, till I see the effect of what is here exhibited: Expecting that when you see this principle removed, you will easily answer all your owne Reasons and Arguments exhibit­ed against us in your owne minds, and save me a labour: However, if you put me to it, I shall doe it hereafter, but for the present I avoid, as much as is possible, all Impertinencies, as so you requested me in your Epistle.

Now your false principle, which it may be you take for granted by all your brethren; and whether they hold it or no, I shall not now dis­pute: But I for my part utterly deny it; and all the consequences you deduce from it is this, to wit,

You say, We knowing that the case of all Infants, as well to matter of righteousnesse, as os sinne, or guilt of sinne, to be the same.

For removall of which principle, I have shewed in the booke many absurd consequences that would necessarily follow: Take these two more as sufficient of themselves to any rationall apprehension.

1. Arg. That if the case of all Infants were the same in respect of righteousnesse or sinne;

Conseq. Then it would follow, that all children so soone as they are children, are either all beloved or all hated of God, and so all saved or all damned when ever they dye.

Reas. For whom he loveth once, he loveth to the end; for he is not changeable in his love or hatred, as I hope you believe: And so whe­ther they live to yeares of discretion or no, whom he once loveth cannot possibly perish.

Arg. 2. That if all Infants were the same, &c.

Conseq. Then it would follow, that Isaac, Jacob, Jeremiah, John Baptist, yea and even Christ himselfe, were no holier in the wombe than Ishmael, Esay, Cain, and the two sonnes of Elie, Hophnie and Phi­neas, and all such like, who being wicked, are said to be estranged from the wombe, and to goe astray as soone as they be borne, speaking [Page 32]lyes; whose poyson is as the poyson of a serpent, and they like the deafe adder that will not hearken to the voyce of charmers charming never so wisely, Psal. 58.3, 4, 5.

Whereas on the other part, Isaac was a child of promise, separated by the hand of God, At such a time will (I) come unto thee, and Sarah shall have a sonne. And Jacob was beloved os God when in his mothers wombe. And Jeremiah was sanctified before he came forth of the wombe. And John Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers wombe. And Christ himselfe with the blessed Deity, as the only qualification of his humane soule.

And therefore it must needs follow,

Conseq. That there is difference in the sight of God in the very wombe, and some are beloved, and some hated; and this love & hatred are like God himselfe, absolutely immutable and unchangeable, as so you grant in your fourth particular, pag. 1.

And againe, from the same principle you further hold, not only that all persons without exception are put into an actuall possession of the fa­vour of God, by his grace in the gift of Jesus Christ.

Which possession they still keepe during Infancy, and untill the com­mission of Actuall sinne.

But further, That all men living to yeares of discretion, and most especially whiles they have not fouly corrupted, or wretchedly hardned themselves, by long continuance in waies of knowne sinnes, are by the same grace put into a good capacity of salvation: So that if they be not wanting to themselves, and this in a very grosse, palpable and un­worthy manner, they may by the grace of God vouchsafed unto them, come to repent and believe, and persevere, believing unto salvation. See your 2 ^d Reason of dissenting in the 4 ^th head of doctrine.

This and the former laid together, include, that all children (whiles in Infancy) till they come to yeares of discretion, are put into an actu­all possession of the favour of God; and this they all keepe during In­fancy; and they are all alike as to matter of sinne or righteousnesse, none hath more sinne in them than another, nor any more righteousnesse than another; And so by consequence,

Conseq. They are all alike beloved of God in Christ Jesus, and all alike hated in respect of sinne, which is of all other the greatest absur­dity: But I returne you backe to what hath beene said.

Again, you affirm, pag. 11. Rea. 5. of your dissent in the third particular:

That you know not how to reconcile the tormenting of millions of poor Infants, who never provoked God by any actuall sinne, with that Philanthropy, those tender mercies, bowels and compassions, that great propension and readinesse to pardon, which the Scriptures so frequent, and with such expressenesse of words, depredicate in God.

Answ. I answer, That it seems to me you cannot reconcile the Ju­stice and severity of God with his infinite Mercy: Yet if I might ad­vise you, I should account it your wisedome not to make too perempto­ry Conclusions upon such Premises, lest your own weaknesse in judge­ment, and comprehension in such cases, be found to be the cause why you cannot make this reconciliation betwixt Infinite Justice, and In­finite Mercy; for without all question they are reconcileable, though you cannot doe it.

It is said, you know, that Sodome and Gomorrah, and the Cities about them, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternall fire. Jude vers. 7.

This was an example of his severe justice; I cannot find but all their children in those Cities doe suffer the vengeance of eternall fire. And if they doe so, then I hope you will not deny but it is just, for the just Lord will doe no iniquity.

Now though I will not undertake to determine, that all their chil­dren, and so the children of Corah and his company, that went down quick into the pit, doe suffer the vengeance of eternall fire; for it is a secret: yet you cannot prove that any were saved that were so destroy'd in his fierce wrath; nor can you ever prove that any that perished in the floud were saved, when he brought in the floud upon the world of the ungodly.

But this is evident, that God visiteth the iniquities of the fathers even upon the children, and that to the third and fourth generation of them that hate him: That is to say, He looketh upon the iniquities of the fathers, as it were stamped on their children; for their likenesse being stamped or imprest on their children, by means of generation, he looketh on them, and accounteth of them, so soon as ever they be be­gotten, to be vile, and odious, and abominable in his sight, and hateth them even then, as he did Esay, when they are in the wombe; so that whether they live to years of discretion or no, it is all one; for if he [Page 34]once hate them, as that he must needs doe, if they be the off-spring of Satan, or of spirituall wickednesse, I doe not see but they must needs perish, though they dye in infancy:

Whereas the off-spring of God, such whom he separateth from the loynes of their parents by means of generation, when ever they dye they are certainly saved, for he loveth the works of his own hands.

And without all peradventure it may be said of some, as Job 10.10, 11, 12. He hath powred them forth like milk, and crudled them like cheese, and cloathed them with skin and flesh, and fenced them with bones and sinews; he hath granted them life and favour, and his visitation hath preserved their spirits. And though these things be secret unto men, yet Job knew, that it was thus with God, v. 13. and therefore accounted himself peculiarly the work of his own hands, in direct opposition to those that are wicked: See vers. 3, 7, 8, 9. and that from this very ground, Is it good, saith Job, that thou shouldest op­presse, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsell of the wicked? Thou knowest that I am not wicked, and there is none that can deliver out of thine hand. Thy hands have made me and fashioned me together round about. As if he should have said, Thou hast taken pains about me, even in my very generation, whereas it cannot be said that thou dost so to the wicked, and therefore theyare not so peculiarly thine own workmanship: they cannot be called a holy generation, a righteous seed, a seed reserved of God, the off-spring of God, a chosen generation, 1 Pet. 2.9. as hath been specified before: It is more proper to call them generations of vipers, evill and adulterous generations, children of wickednesse, sons of Belial, yea even vessels of wrath made on purpose for the day of evill, made to be taken and to be destroyed: Even as men sometimes make vessels for retention of noy­some, unclean and filthy things, that so they may cast them forth, both vessell and all, out of their sight and presence.

For just so it is, God maketh the vessels for retention of wrath, or spirituall wickednesse, which by means of generation is propagated together with the seed of generation from the very loyns of parents: Which though we are not able to distinguish, nor discern the nature of spirituall wickednesse, nor how it is propagable from the loyns of pa­rents, yet we know it is so, and where it is predominant in the sight of God, and the more predominant that it is in any, the more loath­some such are in his sight, and that in the very wombe.

And this doth clear and fully reconcile the Mercy and Justice of God, and that against all the cavils and opposition whatsoever that can be objected; yea though never so many, either children or others, doe eternally perish, and suffer the vengeance of eternall fire, for it is but wickednesse, spirituall wickednesse, that is vesseld up against the day of wrath, and suffered with long patience, till it be fitted for destru­ction; and that on purpose that he may shew his wrath, and hatred a­gainst sinne, and that he may make his power known how he can pu­nish, and that to all eternity, according to his Infinite Justice, and In­finite Wrath and hatred of sinne; as if need require, I shall shew at large, and answer all objections that can be produced, or that are held forth in your book or books, if this will not serve: but I love not to be tedious, if I may chuse: And a word, they say, is sufficient for wise men; I expect therefore that these brief hints may satisfie some, till I have opportunity and occasion for a larger Treatise upon this sub­ject, if it so pleaseth God.