A learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernement, prooued by the worde of God. The title of our brethe­rens booke. Page. 1.

THis is the Title commendatorie of this booke, be­sides the other title which they set before it: A brief, or plaine declaration concerning the desires of al those faithfull ministers, The vaunt of learning in the dis­course. &c. But because this la­ter title liked them better: our brethren take the former part of this title, & prefixe ouer euerie leafe of all their treatise this commendation, A learned discourse of eccl. gouernment. I referre the iudge­ment of the learning to the learned. Me thinketh our brethren should haue [Page 54] done better, to let the discourse commende it selfe, whether it be learned or vnlearned: vino vendibili non [...]pus haedera. But what soeuer the reader can iudge of learning: let him stil haue his ayme to this point, that is here auouched, The proofe by the word of God. but not likewise set vp ouer euery leafe, proued by the word of God. For, beit learned or vnlearned, proue that: & we yéelde. And if our brethren proue it not by the word of God: then we craue of them, that they will cease these contentious discourses, and not stande so much vpon their learning. But both their learned discoursing of Eccl. gouernment, and their prouing the same by the word of God shall appeare (God wil­ling) to the Reader, by the discoursing.

The learned dis­course. Page. 1.The Church of God is the house of God, & therefore ought to be di­rected in al things, according to the order prescribed by the housholder himselfe: which order is not to be learned else-where, but in his holie word. The first of these principles or propositions, is the very worde of the holy Ghost vttered by Paul: The second followeth necessarily of the first. 1. Tim. [...].15. The third is a manifest trueth, beleeued of all them, that acknow­ledge the scripture of God, The defini­tion of the Church. to be a perfect rule of all our life, and able to make the man of God perfect, prepared to all good workes.

2. Tim. 3.17. On these thrée principles, our brethren lay their ground of al their lear­ned discourse. Bridges. Which being rightly vnderstoode, and building well vpon them, Three principles or propositions, whereon all this learned discourse is grounded. First, that the Church is Gods house. are verie good principles, or rather propositions, as they terme thē. Of this first, is saide ynough alreadie: concerning Dauids comparing him selfe to the stone in the corner of this mysticall houses building. And most gladly we admit this our brethrens testimonie for the same, as the verie worde of the holy Ghost vttered by Paule: and that this house of God, which is the Church of the liuing God, ( is) the piller and ground of truth: Because it alwayes vpholdeth and maintaineth the trueth, both in this matter of eccl. gouernment, and in all other, so farre as is necessa­rie to saluation. Albeit, Christe in principall, properly and absolutely, is the onely ground and foundation of this house. 1. Tim. 3.17. And heere by the way, sith by this testimonie of S. Paul, The Church the piller of [...]he truth. the Church, which is the house of God, is thus the piller and ground of the truthe: If this gouernment that our brethren vrge be so necessarie, and of so great moment to the house or church of God: then is it likely, y ^e the Church of God, though it hath not alwaies and in all places, yet for the most part of time & places, or at least­wise, in some ages and places, had this gouernment maintained, & kept it, or striued for it; or else belike it was not thought so necessarie.

2. that all things shold be directed by the hous­holders pre­scribed or­der.The second principle ( they say) followeth necessarily of the first. And so it doth, which seconde was this: and therefore ( this Church or house of God) ought to be directed in all thinges, according to the order prescribed by the housholder himselfe. Which principle is true within the boundes thereof, that is to say, in all thinges that he hath prescribed. [Page 55] But if he haue not prescribed all thinges appertayning to the externall gouernment of his Church or house: Howe farre this rule holdeth. then are those thinges which are not prescribed by the housholder himselfe, not to be so vrged, as that they ought necessarily, this way or that way to be alwayes directed. The Apostle Hebr. 8. verse. 5. saith out of Exod. 25. verse 40. Moses was war­ned by God, when he was about to finish the Tabernacle: See sayde he, Hebr. 8.5. that thou make all thinges according to the paterne, shewed to thee in the mount. But the Apostle proceeding in the ninth Chapter, Hebr. 9.11. verse 11. applying this first Tabernacle to the second, which he calleth a greater and more per­fect Tabernacle, not made with handes, that is, not of this building, ( meaning the naturall bodie of Christe) referreth not this to the mysti­call bodie, which is the Church or house of God, and much lesse to the externall forme of regiment in all matters ecclesiasticall, or belonging to the Churches gouernment. No, not when before, chap. 3. verse 1. Hebr. 3.1. &c. he speaketh both of Christ himselfe, and of his house or Church also. Therefore (sayeth he) holy brethren, partakers of the heauenly vocation, consi­der the Apostle and high Priest of our profession Christ Iesus: who was faithfull to him that hath appointe [...] him, euen as Moses was in all his house. For this man was counted woorthie of more glorie th [...]n Moses, in asmuch as he that hath buil­ded the house, hath more honour than the house. For euery house is builded of some man, and hee that hath built all thinges, is God. Nowe Moses verelie was faithfull in all his house, as a seruant, for a witnesse of the thinges which should be spoken after: but Christe is as the sonne ouer his owne house, whose house wee are, if we holde fast the confidence, and the reioysing of the hope, vnto the ende.

Here againe, we sée that this faithfulnesse in all his house, (as Moses was faithful,) is not to be reckoned, as though he went about to shewe vs, that all pointes of the externall regiment of the house or Churche of Christe, haue a prescribed order, by which they ought to bee direc­ted in all thinges: but that in the inwarde and spirituall regiment there­of, we should acknowledge Iesus Christ the sonne of God to be the Lord and owner of this house, and to consider him, as the Apostle and high Priest of our profession, that is, of our Christian faith and religion, and to confirme our faith in him, that wee are his house or Church, if wee holde fast ( not this or that externall forme of Ecclesiastical gouernment) but the confidence and reioysing of hope vnto the ende.

And thus farre foorth, and not furder, we admit this second principle or proposition.

And this is necessarie to be obserued, The capti­ous setting downe of the 2. prin­ciple. because this principle is here set downe in such captious order, as insinuating, that Christ had prescri­bed an order in all thinges, in his house or Church: according to the prescription whereof, all thinges ought to be directed. [Page 56] In which sense it is no principle, but a question betwéene vs, which w [...] denie, and our brethren affirme: but as yet they haue not prooued it.

The thirde ( saye they) is a manifest trueth, beleeued of all them, that acknoweledge the Scripture of God, The 3. prin­ciple. That the scripture teacheth all the Chur­ches gouernment. The caption of this third principle. to bee a perpetuall rule of all our life, and able to make the man of God perfect, prepared to all good workes.

Here againe, another caption is to be taken héede of, in this their thirde principle: which order is not to bee learned else-where, but in his holie woorde. For if they meane it of the order that in his holie worde he hath prescribed: true it is, that order is not to be learned any where else, as anie necessarie prescription: otherwise then as an expo­sition of the same order, for our more cleare and fuller learning thereof. And so (alwayes kéeping the foundation) the godlie fathers and exposi­tors may builde there-on: and the godlie gouernours of the Church, may beautifie and adorne the same: so that all be doone to Gods glorie, and to the true edifying of the Church. And so, this third proposition is a manifest trueth beleeued of all them, that acknowledge the scrip­ture of God, to be a perfect rule of all our life, and able to make the man of God perfect, prepared to all good workes.

But it followeth not héere-upon, that all generall or particuler orders in the externall gouernement of the Church, are not else-where to bee learned, but in Gods holie woorde: except they meane by Gods holie worde, such as are inclusiuely comprehended, and not expresselie speci­fied in his holie worde. For, they their selues haue not all their orders expressely mentioned, and in all thinges prescribed in Gods holy worde. For example, their owne communion booke, entituled: The forme of Common prayers, The forme of common prayer by our brethe­ren prescri­bed. administration of the Sacramentes, &c. They dare not auowe, that all thinges therein conteyned, haue not beene learned else-where, but in his holie worde, and are there to be founde eyther in plaine woordes, or necessarie implication: but because they thinke, that they are not contrarie: they dare auouch thus farre, to call them, Agreeable to Gods worde. And yet, as though the agreea­blenesse also might be called in question: they adde héere-to, And the vse of the reformed Churches. And as their owne booke of Common prayers vseth all these helpes, to saue all vpright, for feare they might be chalenged in this poynt: euen so, this booke which our bretheren commende vnto vs, to be, A learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouern­ment, prooued by the worde of God: wee shall finde in the discourse thereof, that the learned discoursers learned not all the orders prescri­bed there-in, Agreable to Gods worde though not prescribed. out of Gods holie worde: but somewhat else-where. Ex­cept they will likewise say, it is agreeable, or not contrarie to Gods ho­lie worde.

[Page 57] Wherein also, we shall (God willing) sée how they faile. But if that an­swer may thus serue them: I sée not whie, it may not as well serue vs, if we haue no other gouernement established, but such as is agreeable and not contrarie to the holie word of God, although it be not in his holie word expresselie prescribed.

Neither dooth this text of S. Paule. 2. Tim. 3.17. anie more infringe euerie order in the churches gouernement, that it maye not be learned else-where, but in Gods holie worde: then it dooth infringe euerie other order in the ciuill policie, or administration of euerie mans morall beha­uiour: that their orders also are not to be learned else-where, but in Gods holie word. Bicause, thi [...] is a manifest truth, beleeued of all them that acknowledge the scripture of God, to be a perfect rule of all our life, and able to make the man of God perfect, prepared to all good workes. But it sufficeth for such orders as are not prescribed, nor specifi­ed as things necessarie to saluation, both in life and manners, to leuell all such orders ( be they ecclesiasticall, ciuill, or morall) according to the ana­logie of those, that are specified & prescribed: and to receiue them, either as folded vp or vnfolded, in those generall specifications & prescriptions: and so to estéeme them in their degrées, as necessarie or expedient to edifi­cation, for order, comlinesse, or obedience sake, although they be none of those things, that directlie apperteine vnto the necessitie of our saluati­on, or to anie absolute necessitie of our obedience.

And thus farre (as I, vnder correction, take it) are these three princi­ples, albeit indéed no principles, bicause we sée they are thus intricate, ambiguous, captious, and so questionable (but propositions, are the fitter name for the two later) to be admitted, and no farther.

This foundation being surelie laide, The learned dis­course. Page. 2. against which the gates of hell cannot preuaile: we ought diligentlie and reuerentlie to search the ho­lie scriptures, that we may finde, what order our sauiour Christ, our one­lie housholder, hath set foorth in them: by which he would haue his church or houshold to be directed in all thinges, apperteining to the eternall saluation of vs men, his vnprofitable seruants. What mi­nisters are apointed in the church.

Héere our brethren drawe their thrée former propositions to an head or issue: what order is prescribed in the holie scriptures. But whereas they make these thrée foresaid propositions, Bridges. to be the foundation of all their building of this house of God: The issue of these three principles. ( the reuerence reserued to so lear­ned discoursers) me thinketh they should haue laide a more sure founda­tion, whether it be of this house of Gods church, or of their platforme of building this their ecclesiasticall gouernement. Our bre­therens found [...]ion, and the foū ­dation that For (as we may easilie perceiue, by view of these thrée propositions) they are not all of them so sure and plaine principles, as our brethren would beare vs in hand, they are. But this is apparant, that they are not that foundatiō, against which [Page 58] Christ saith) that the gates of hell shall not preuaile. That foundatio [...] was surelie laide indéed: for it was Christ himselfe, vpon whom (by faith in him) all the house of the church is builded: as the Apostle saith: No m [...]n can laye anie other foundation, then that that is laide, which is Iesus Christ. Séeing that therefore, our brethren make all their foundation, where vp­on their plotforme of gouernement shall arise, to consist on these thrée foresaid propositions: I doubt, least, the surelier they thinke that they lay their building on it, this foundation will not beare it, being so sandie, lose, and hollowe: except their building be of verie slight timber, & light stuffe. Neuerthelesse, the drift wherevnto they driue all these thrée pro­positions, is well to be liked, to search the scriptures, as Christe willeth, Iohn. 5.39. For they testifie of him. But although a man builde on that foundation, which is onelye Iesus Christ: yet (saith S. Paule. 1. Cor. 13.11, &c. [...] ▪ Cor. 13.11. Let euerie man take heed how he buildeth vpon it. For if any man build vpon this foundation, gold, siluer, precious stones, timber, hay, stubble: euerie mans worke shall-be made manifest. For the daie shall declare it, bicause it shall-be re­uealed by the fire, and the fire shall trie euerie mans worke, of what sorte it is. If anye mans worke that he hath built vpon, abide, he shall receiue wages: if anye mans worke burne, he shall lose, but he shall-be safe himselfe: neuerthelesse, yet as it were by the fire. And who are these that build thus, albeit, on Christe? Maye we not well (among all other interpretations) compare them vnto these builders, It sufficeth not to build on Christ, but also to take heede howe we b [...]ild on him. which being neither Heathen, nor Heretiks, nor errone­ous Papists ( for, all those builde besid [...]s the foundation Christ,) But these building and grounding themselues (so farre as reacheth to the ground and foundation) all on Christe, notwithstanding, they contend (as the Corinthians did) about matters, that were not so necessarie, but lesse edifiynge: of the which, although some of them were goo [...] giftes of GOD, méete for the state and time then present, (being well vsed) but not to bee vrged so peremptorilie, that euen a building and platforme, shoulde bee made and prescribed vnto all churches, and to all times and states, of those things: these men (although other­wise, they laye all their foundation onelie on Iesus Christ) yet when the fire of Gods spirit and holie word, shall come in-déed to trie them, this fire will consume and burne vp (as strawe, or stubble, yea be it tim­ber also) all these curious and contentious plotformes, that these our ze [...] ­lous brethen haue framed, and endeuoured to set vp, on Iesus Christe, the rocke and foundation of all the building. But not so, but that they their selues (by the grace of God) shall neuer the lesse be saued, though these deuises of theirs, for all they build them on Christ, yet bicause they are not so necessarie to edifiyng ( as they conceaue of them) shall perish in the triall.

And as this is true of our brethrens building, so likewise of ours, or o [...] [Page 59] anye others, if we should make anye building on Christe, of the outward order of ecclesiasticall gouernement, otherwise then as S. Paule the wise maister builder dooth: not to vrge them as matters of saluation, or as though the perfection of religion laye in them: nor yet to giue leaue to euery priuate congregation, to dispose of them, as they list: but so to vrge and reteine them, as orders necessarie, not of the building it selfe, but of the ornaments of the building, of which orders he giueth his generall rule, 1. Cor. 14.40. Let all things be doone honestlie and by order, as we shall (God willing) sée further in this discourse thereon. And such orders he séemeth also to include, 1. Cor. 11.34. Other things will I set in order when I come. But these orders are neither of the substance of the building: nor be all of them expressed in the holie scriptures, though some of them be: nor all that are expressed, are prescribed to all ages & churches, nor are things of necessitie to saluation. Albeit, they be not thervpon, to be vnor­derlie plucked vp or contemned, being orderlie set downe & established.

But, that we ought diligentlie and reuerentlie to search the holie scriptures, that we may finde what order our Sauiour Christ, our onelie housholder, hath set foorth in them, by which he would haue his house or church, to be directed in all thinges, apperteining to the eternall salua­tion of vs men, his vnprofitable seruants: This is most true, we ought so to do, and to do the same with great diligence, and no lesse reuerence: Diligence and reue­rence in searching the scrip­tures. least perhaps, of neuer so good and zealous a meaning, we should ouer-bu­sie our selues contentiouslie, for things not necessarilie perteining to the eternall saluation of vs men his vnprofitable seruants, when we find any thing mentioned in the holie scriptures: and not diligentlie and reue­rentlie searching, and considering the same, streightwaies vrge it, to be a generall order, or an absolute rule, that our Sauiour Christ, Vrging of things read in the scrip­ture, as necessarie to saluat [...]ō, that are not necessarie. our onelie (cheefe) housholder, hath set foorth in them: by the which he woulde haue his house or church to be directed, as in things perteining to the eternall saluation of vs men his vnprofitable seruants. This were indéed an improfitable seruice, and an vndiligent and vnreuerent searching of the holie scripture. For so, Per ignorationem Elenchi, not knowing the ground of the matter, which we searched for, we might (in a zeale not according to knowledge) run (and leade other with vs) into manie and dangerous inconueniences, and so, become not onelie vnprofitable, but hurtefull seruants too.

And if these our brethren, the learned discoursers, did alwaies search the holie scriptures, with this diligence and reuerence ( as both they and we, and all ought to doo) they should finde, that in their vrging of this their ecclesiasticall gouernement, as apperteining to saluation, they offer to great an iniurie, both to all vs their brethren, & to the most ages, and peoples (if not to all Gods church) besides themselues. For, albeit [Page 60] they could find some parts thereof set foorth by our sauiour Christ in the holie scriptures: ( which how they searche and prooue, this discourse will shew) yet, for all their forme héere prescribed, to be set foorth by our sa­uiour Christe, or by his apostles, in the holie scriptures, by which he would haue his church directed in all things, and that, as apperteining to the saluation of vs men, Our brethe­rens to hard a censure of t [...]e greatest pa [...]te of Christes church. his vnprofitable seruants: They shall neuer finde this, search while they will. Yea, in saying this, they pronounce to hard a censure, vpon all the house and church of Christ, where this ec­clesiasticall gouernement hath not béene obserued. Which (if it had per­teined to the saluation of man) should not onelie haue béene vnprofita­ble, but cast awaie and condemned seruants to, and so, no liuelie stones of his house, or parts of his true church at all. For it booteth not that other of our brethren thinke to helpe the matter, in likening our church to a man liuing, but yet maimed: or to a house standing, but yet ruinated. For, if it necessarilie be apperteining to the saluation of vs men: then cannot we men without it be partakers of saluatiō. But none are of the true church of God, but are pertakers of saluation. For the true church is onelie of the elected: and therefore either all that haue not had (since Christs time) this prescribed forme of gouernment, were not the church of Christ at all, Our bre­theren heer­in are of Harrisons opinion a­gainst [...]art­wright. or els, this prescribed forme of gouernmēt, is not necessarilie apper­teining to the saluatiō of vs men. And if not necessarie, then vnnecessarie to our saluatiō. And then, we shall mainteine our gouernment (I trust) in peace, honestie, and godlinesse, (by the grace of God) well-inough, yea, without anie deforming: and much more, without anie maiming of the church of Christ ( as Cartwrighte saith) and much more, without being no true church at all (as Harrison saith) although we want it.

But now let vs sée, with what diligence and reuerence our brethren haue searched the holie scriptures, The learned dis­course. Page. 2. and what they haue found in them for this their building.

Now we finde in the scriptures, that our sauiour Christ ascending in­to heauen, was not vnmindfull of his church on earth: but ordeined an holie ministerie of men, to the building vp of the bodie of Christ, in v­nitie of faith and knowledge. Eph [...]s. 4.11. 1. Cor. 12.28.

Bridges This for a beginning is well searched out, and a good beginning ma­keth a good ending. This is searched, found, and quoted by our brethren, Ephes. 4.11, and 1. Cor. 12.28. But they finde héere, that was not lost, nor is doubted of, Th [...] gif [...] & offices mē ­t [...]one [...], or called in question betwéene vs. For, we confesse, as fréelie as they, (that our sauiour Christ ascending into heauen, was not vnmindfull of his church on earth: Ephes. 4.11. but ordeined an holie ministerie of men. But what that holie ministerie of men was, the apostle himselfe sheweth in the same place, Ephes 4. ver. 11. He therefore gaue some to be A­postles, and some Prophet [...], and some Euangelists, and some Pastors and teachers. [Page 61] This place declareth, that our sauiour Christ was neither vnmyndfull, nor vnbountifull to his church on earth. Notwithstanding, the most part of the gifts héere reckoned vp, are ceased manie hundred yeares agone: and either there remaineth of this, but one, Pastor and teacher. vnderstanding pastor and teacher for one office, as the apostle deuiding the other, setteth downe this togi­ther iointlie, since the office of Pastor cheefelie consisteth in teaching, ( and so doo the most interpretor [...] expound it) or there remaineth but two ordi­narie functions at the most, héere mentioned: if we should deuide them as these our brethren doo: but of that afterward. Now onelie to the present purpose, for the which our brethren héere alledge this place, the Apostle héere citeth it not for anie orders of ecclesiasticall gouernement, concer­ning externall discipline or iurisdiction, in what prescribed manner it should be obserued, directed, set foorth, and perpetuallie continued in Christs church: yea, the chéefest part of those gouernours, The Apo­stles neither words nor scope set downe a perpetuall forme of externall gouerne­ment in th [...] church. which the A­postle setteth downe, is altered, by taking awaie the three principall na­med persons, Apostles, Prophets, and Euangelists. But S. Paule speaking there, of their diuerse gifts and functions: to what purpose doo our bre­thren say, Christ gaue them? To the building vp ( saye they) of the body of Christ in the vnitie of faith and knowledge.

What is this to the matter that we now search to finde in the scrip­tures, that is to saie, for some orders prescribed and set foorth, concer­ning the externall forme of ecclesiasticall gouernement for the church, to be directed by, in all things? Can we finde this, in this testimonie of the scripture? If we can: let vs search the place better, and not curtall it thus, as they doo. He therefore ( saith the Apostle) gaue some to be apo­stles, and some prophets, and some euangelists, and some pastors and teachers: for the gathering together of the saints, for the worke of the ministerie, and for the edification of the bodie of Christ, till we all meet togither in the vnitie of faith, and knowledge of the sonne of God, vnto a perfect man, and vnto the measure of the age of the fulnesse of Christ, that we hence foorth be no more children, wauering, and caried about with euerie winde of doctrine, by the deceite of men, and with crafti­nesse, whereby they lie in waite to deceaue. But let vs follow the truth in loue, and in all things grow vp into him, which is the head (that is Christ) by whome all the bodie being coupled and knit together by e­uerie ioint, for the furniture thereof, according to the effectuall power, which is in the measure of euerie part, receaueth encrease of the bodie, vnto the edifiyng of it selfe in loue.

This is all that S. Paule in this place speaketh, of these gifts, and of this building, and of the order and ends thereof. So that, héere he referreth all to vnitie in doctrine of faith, and to holie conuersation of life, and not to the externall orders of the churches ecclesiasticall gouernement. Al­beit [Page 62] we must not thinke héere vpon, that bicause this gouernement is not héere mentioned among the gifts, which our Sauiour Christ gaue to his church on earth, when he ascended into heauen: He was vnmindfull of his church: or that S. Paule was vnmindfull of his giftes: or that the church hauing not had this now desired gouernment, for so manye hun­dreth yeares, should haue béene so long time vnmindfull or destitute of the same, if it had béene any matter wherein the perfection of the church consisted: or the want thereof had béene any impediment to those ends, that the Apostle héere citeth. But we may rather thinke the contrarie, that it was no such important matter, and therefore not necessarie to be minded.

Well, yet if it be not in the one place héere quoted, it maye be in the o­ther. Let vs therefore likewise sée the other, 1. Cor. 12.28. 1. Cor. 12.28. And there in­déed are gouernours mentioned in expresse termes. For where S. Paule had said, Verse, 27. Now are ye the bodie of Christ, and members for your parte: it followeth. And God hath ordeined some in the church: as first Apostles, s [...] ­condlie Prophet, thirdlie Teachers; then, them that doo miracles: after that, the giftes of healing, helpers, gouernors, diuersities of toongs. Héere are giftes recko­ned vp, Apostles and Prophets mentioned before: and héere among other, are gouernors named: Gouernors. but what kind of gouernors? Or whether with anie ordinarie forme and order of gouernement, Neither in this place the example sets downe any perpe­tuall order of the chur­ches exter­nall gouernment. for the church alwaie [...] to be directed by, any more then by anye other of the residue héere men­tioned? (except Teachers, which are alwaies necessarie for the instructiō o [...] doctrine, and documents of life:) this place helpeth to our brethrens pur­pose, no more then did the other. Neither was the purpose of S. Paule héer­in, directed to any such bent, but to exhort the Corinthians vnto edifiyng in vnitie and loue, and not to distract themselues in faction, about thes [...] giftes, as he procéedeth saying: Are all Apostles? Are all Prophets? Ar [...] all Teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Haue all the giftes of hea­ling? Doo all speake with toongs? Doo all interpret? But desire yo [...] the best giftes, and I will yet shew you a more excellent waie. And so h [...] entreth into a lerned discourse indéed, chap. 13. Not of this our brethren [...] plotforme of ecclesiasticall gouernement, The exam­ples sco [...]e. as tending to the perfection of the church: But of the excellencie of loue or charitie, aboue all th [...] giftes and offices that he had named: and maketh this the waie to tend vnto the perfection of the church, concluding thus: And now abidet [...] faith, hope, and loue, these three: but the cheefest of these is loue. Thi [...] was the full drift of S. Paule in this place, concerning the mysticall bodi [...] of Christe, which is his church or house, and that the building vp there­of: euen, where he speaketh of Gouernors, and of the waye tending to perfection, & where he citeth many giftes and offices: and yet can we n [...]t héere finde this platforme of ecclesiasticall gouernement, which our br [...] ­thren [Page 63] desire & seeke for, ( now in the beginning of this learned discourse, and afterwards againe and againe) in these place [...]. And yet, had there béene then in the church of Christ, anye such plotforme, S. Paule had in this place, notable occasion to haue treated thereof. But héere is no menti­on of it, or of any pe [...]petuall forme at all prescribed of ecclesiast. gouerne­ment, saue onelie of Teaching: except they wil include that in gouerning. So that finding nothing hetherto to satisfie their desires, in searching these two testimonies of the scripture: let vs now procéed, to search further with them for this matter.

We finde also, that as the offices, are diuerse of this ministerie: The learned dis­course. Page. 2. and 3. so they are not generall vnto all the church, but as order and necessitie re­quire, for executing of their office, distributed and limited vnto cer­teine places or particuler churches, according to the diuision of regi­ons, cities and townes. For we read that Paule and Barnabas, ordeined at Derbie, Lystra, Iconium, and Antiochia, &c: elders by election in e­uerie church, with praier and fasting, and so commended them to the Lord, in whome they beleeued. Also Paule left Titus in the Isle of Creta, that he should ordeine Elders in euerie citie, as he had appointed.

What our brethren did finde in the two foresaide testimonies of the scripture, we haue alreadie séene, that is to saye, Bridges. they haue found out in them, for the confirmation of the question betwéene vs, what more, what lesse, méere nothing. Héere they tell vs they finde also, that the diuerse of­fices of this ministerie are not generall vnto all the church. But they finde also this so doubtfullye, that we can scarce tell howe to finde also what it is, that they saye héere, they haue found. For, The confu­sednes [...]e of our brethe­rens word [...]. what meane they by these words: that as the offices are diuerse, so are they not ge­nerall vnto all the church? Whether meane they, not generall vnto all the church, in respect of all the persons, of whom the church consisteth, that is to say, not generall or cōmon to all men? Or, meane they it, in respect of the time: that is to say, they are not generall or perpetuall to all the con­tinuance of the churche to the worlds end? And if they do so: why do they then alledge these places for them? Sithe they can neither finde by them, all the offices of eccl. gouernmēt that they desire: nor those places do di­ [...]inguish, which diuerse offices of this ministerie are generall or perpe­tuall, and which are not. Or, meane they generall, in respect of all places, wheresoeuer the church is through-out all the world dispersed? And al­though this last sence, seemeth to draw néerest to the coherence of their words following: but as order and necessitie require, for executing of their office, distributed and limited vnto corteine places or particuler churches, according to the di [...]isions of regions, cities and townes: yet [...]re these wordes (me thinkes) as darke, or darker then the other. And [...]ill ( [...] correction) I wishe, they had (for their owne sakes) set [Page 64] downe their words more plainelie. For my part, I gather this of them [...] that for the executing of anye of those diuerse offices ( not speaking of those that are alreadie ceased, but of those that are ordinarie offices, which our brethren also make diuerse offices) these cannot execute their offices, but that for order sake, and of verie necessitie, these offices or of­ficers must be distributed and limited, The distri­bution of offices in regions, ci­ties, and townes▪ for orders sake, and for ve­rie necessi­tie: either vnto certeine places, or particuler churches, where they may gouerne, feede, or teach the peo­ple: and these certeine places or particuler churches, are to be assigned or appointed vnto these diuerse offices or officers, according to the di­uisions of regions, cities and townes: that is to say, some of these diuerse offices or officers, to wit, Gouernors, Pastors, & Teachers, to be distri­buted and limited; some ouer regions, other ouer cities, and other ouer townes. Is not this their meaning, that these diuerse offices should be thus distinguished and limitted, and that for order sake: yea, that verie necessitie dooth require it, for the better executing of their offices?

If this be not their meaning: I cannot sée, what better construction to make of their words And the verie examples which héere they finde also, doo directlie confirme this sense. For although in the one, Act. 14.23: they tell vs, that Paule and Barnabas ordeined elders by election. Which ex­ample we shall afterwards (God willing) sée more fullie & oftener then once discoursed: yet neither followeth it, that those presbyters, preests o [...] elders, must be vnderstood of a seniorie, that are gouernors and not tea­chers, to be elected or ordeined in euerie church: and our brethren themselues before, spoke onelie of an holie ministerie, which words are vsuallie restrained, vnto the diuine ministers of the word & sacraments. Neither followeth it, that although the churches had elected them ( which cannot necessarilye be gathered on that text) whome they knew fittest to be ordeined: that therefore they had anye thing at all to doo in the ordei­ning or making of them. For, the text is plaine, that Paule and Barnabas did ordeine them, and not, the churches with Paule and Barnabas did ordeine them. Paule and Barnabasses orde [...]ning elders. As for their other example, Tit. 1.5. dooth most apparantli [...] confirme the same, and cleane ouerthroweth the ecclesiasticall gouerne­ment, that their selues desire. For first, what ecclesiasticall office Tit [...] had, Titus li­mited to the region of Creta. the verie subscription of S. Paules epistle vnto him, dooth declare: To Titus the first elected bishop of the church of the Cretenses. Which sub­scription, what it inferreth, we shall (God willing) haue further occasi [...] to note againe heereafter. In the meane season, it accordeth to our breth [...] ­rens saying, that he had by S. Paules assignement, for the executing of [...] episcopall office, Titus office and autho­ritie in his limited region. the whole Ile and people of the Cretians, as his pro­uince or region, distributed and limitted vnto him. And our brethren further confesse: Also Paule left Titus in the Ile of Creta, that he should ordeine Elders in euerie citie, as he had appointed. And not onelie so: [Page 65] but as appeareth by Saint Paules owne words: For this cause, The giftes, &c. left I thee in Creta, that thou shouldest redresse the things that remaine, and shouldest ordeine presbyters (preests or Elders) in euerie citie, as I ap­pointed thee. What these Presbyters, Preests, or Elders were, least we should vnderstand them to be Consistories, of gouerning onelie and not teaching presbyters, preests, or elders: He procéedeth, saying: what office the elders had that Titus or­deined. If anie be vnreprooueable, the husband of one wife, hauing faithfull children, which are not slandered of riot, neither are disobedient. For a Bishop must be vnreprooueable, as Gods steward: and so foorth, as by the de­scription of the properties there required, dooth appeare: especiallie the last, that he may be able to exhort with wholesome doctrine, and im­prooue them that gaine-saye it. Whereby we may plainelie sée, that he meaneth onelie the Bishops and Presbyters, Preests or Elders of the worde.

Héere, of these Bishops and Presbyters, Preests or Elders, S. Paule gi­ueth to Titus the authoritie or iurisdiction to be their ordinarie, or the ordeiner of them, in their Episcopall and presbyterall office, without a­nye mention at all, of any others election of them, besides himselfe, to ap­point and ordeine such, as he should sée, to be sufficientlie qualified for those offices. And that he should thus doo in euerie citie in Creta, which Iland at that time, had many and famous Cities. To conclude, he giueth him charge, and so withall, authoritie, that hee should there continue to redresse those things that were remaining to be doone, Which, what things they were (some orders, perhaps, of ecclesiasticall gouernement, méete for their state): yet, bicause they are not specified: no prescribed or­der of this or that ecclesiasticall gouernement, The proofe in Titus of Episcopall and Archie­piscopall iurisdictiō. can be inferred on those generall words. Neuerthelesse, they prooue, that he had authoritie, and that a continuing authoritie, to redresse such ecclesiasticall matters, as were amisse, or not yet established among them. So that, héere is a mani­fest iurisdiction Episcopall, yea, Archi-episcopall, not onelie ouer Pastors and Teachers, being elders in euerie particuler church: but also ouer Bishops hauing authoritie ouer whole cities: Titus being aboue them all, through-out y ^• whole Ile, as a Regionall or Prouinciall Bishop, which we vsuallie call by the auncient terme, Metropolitane or Archbishop. And all this dooth héere by the waie (before we come to the proper trea­ [...]is [...] thereof) their owne example, which they haue héere found out, moste [...]festlie prooue, directlie against the ecclesiasticall gouernement that they seeke for. From these places, our brethren returne vnto the testi­monies, that they cited before, prefixing one moe, Rom. 12. vnto them.

Concerning the diuerse offices of the ministerie, The learned dis­course. Page. 3. we are taught by Saint Paule, Rom. 12.6. also, 1. Cor. 12.28. and Ephes. 4.11. Where we [Page 66] reade that God hath ordeined in the ministerie of his Church th [...]se se­uerall offices: namelie, Apostles, Euangelists, Prophets, Pastors, Doctors, Gouernors and Deacons: also men indued with the giftes of healing, of powers or miracles, and of diuerse toongs.

Bridges.Concerning the diuers offices of the ministerie, our brethren sear­ched before, but they could finde nothing for their desired Ecclesiasti­call gouernement. And yet heere the places which before were onelye cited in the margine, are now ascited and promoted into the Learned dis­course it selfe: (belike) on hope of some better matter. Howbeit, they saye nothing. They doo héere but muster on a plumpe, come foorth for a shewe, and so passe by in a confused order, and not in their places, as the Apostle setteth them downe And, a number are left out, that are also mentione [...] in these chapters héere cited, euen almoste as manye as bee héere name [...]. For besides these, the Apostle, Rom. 12. verse. 6. reckoneth vp diuerse other giftes.

Seeing then (saith hee) that wee haue giftes, which are diuerse, according to the grace that is giuen vnto vs: The diuerse giftes men­tioned in these places. whether we haue prophecie, let vs prophesie, according to the proportion of faith: or an office, let vs waire on the office: or he that teacheth, on teaching: or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: be that distri­buteth, let him doo it with simplicitie: he that ruleth, with diligence: he th [...] sheweth mercie, with cheerefulnesse. Héere are seauen giftes by the Apostle mentioned.

And 1. Cor. 12. beginning at the eight verse, he saith: Now there are diuersities of giftes, but the same spirite: and there are diuersities of admini­strations, but the same Lord: and there are diuersities of operations, but GOD is the same, which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the spirite, is giuen to euerie man to profite with-all: for to one is giuen, by the spirite, the worde of wisedome: and to another the worde of knowledge, by the same spirit [...], and to another, is giuen faithe, by the same spirite: and to another, the giftes of healing, by the same spirite: and to another, the operation of gr [...] workes: and to another, prophesie: and to another, the discerning of spirites, and to another diuersities of toonges, and vnto another the interpretation of toongs.

Héere againe are nine giftes reckoned vp, of the which eight were not before Rom. 12. as diuerse giftes named. And in the place alreadie cit [...] and viewed, 1. Corin. 12. ver. 28. are also eight or nine reckoned: of the which, two or thrée were not before specified. And Ephes. 4. verse. 1 [...]. Likewise cited before and perused, are foure named: or if they distinguish Pastor from Teacher, and so make them fiue: yet remaine there moe, then as manye moe againe, as our brethren haue héere reckoned, besi [...] those that are not in these, but in other places mentioned. But wherto ar [...] [Page 67] our brethren, or should we néede to be, so curious, in the enumeration of these diuerse giftes or offices? Dooth it any whitte further our brethrens forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernement? Or rather, dooth it not in manye pointes confute it, as by Gods grace we shall afterward sée? Or doo they thinke, that as there were so manye diuerse giftes or offices, that they were all of them: or all those persons that were of some one office, of like measure in these giftes: or of like authoritie in that office? or that, although they were diuerse giftes or officers, one man might not haue diuerse of them, all at one time without confusion? But those pointes are debated afterward. In the meane season, all this hetherto prooueth no­thing, for the building of their platforme. But it sheweth muche-how vnconsideratelie they heape vp these things, with-out all order, put in and put out, making perpetuall or temporarie, to serue for euer, or to serue for a time, what soeuer serueth their turne and humor: and all to laye a modill of suche building, as whereon all this new deuised Te­trarchie might be erected. Which thing howe they do: let vs sée now their procéeding further.

Of these offices, some were temporall, seruing onelye for the firste planting and foundation of the churche among the Heathen: The lea [...] ned dis­course. Page. 3.4, 5 & 6 some are perpetuall, perteining to the nourishinge and buildinge vp of the churche for euer. Of the former sort were Apostles, Pro­phets, Euangelists, men indued with the graces of powers, of healings and of diuerse toongs. Of the later kinde are Doctors, Pastors, Go­uernors, and Deacons. The Apostles were ordeined by God, and sent foorth immediatlie by Christe, hauing a generall commission to spread the Gospell ouer all the worlde: which when they had accomplished, Matt. 28.19 Mark. 16.25 that office ceased. Suche were the twelue Apostles, Paule and Bar­nabas, &c.

And for this cause the Apostles appointed Matthias, in the place of Iudas, according to the scriptures: permitting neuerthelesse, Acts. 1.25. the elec­tion vnto God, by casting of Lottes, that the number might be full, for the firste planting of the Churche. But when Herode had slaine Iames the brother of Iohn with the sworde, Acts. 1 [...]. [...] they chose no man to succeed in his place, bicause they had no warrante of Gods worde: but the Holie­ghoste, as hee sawe it was expedient for the churche, afterwarde se­perated Paule and Barnabas which liued at Antioche, Acts. 13.2. as Prophets and Teachers to the worke, whereto he called them.

The Prophets were such as were indued, with a singuler gifte of Reuelation in the interpretation of the scriptures, and applying them to [Page 68] the present vse of the churche: of whome some also did foreshewe of things to come▪ as Agabus.

Also, there were in euerie citie that prophecied to S. Paule, as he passed by them, that bonds and afflictions were prepared for him at Ierusa­lem. This office being in the number of them that were ordeined for beautifying the Gospell, in the first publishing thereof, it ceased with that singuler and extraordinarie gift, to be an ordinarie function of the church.

The Euangelists were such as were stirred vp of GOD, to assist the Apostles in their ministerie of generall charge, Acts. 8.5. in planting the same by their preaching, Act. 8.14. but inferior in dignitie to the Apostles. Such was Phil­lip that first preached the Gospell in Samaria: whither Peter and Iohn were sent by the Apostles, to conferre vnto them, by praier and imposi­tion of hands, the visible graces of the Holie-ghost, which Philip did not.

Act. 21.8.The same Philip in Acts. 21. verse. 8. is called an Euangelist. So was Timothie, 2. Timoth. 4.5. such was Titus, [...]. Tim. [...].5. Silas, and manie other. This office also, with the order of the Apostles, is expired, and hath no place. Likewise as we doo plainelie see, that the gifts of healing, of powers or miracles, and of diuerse toongs, haue long since ceased to be in the church: so the offices of them which were grounded vpon these gifts, must also cease and be determined. Therefore the Papists doo vainelie reteine the name and office of exorcists, when they cannot cast out di­uels: and extreame vnction, when they cannot cure diseases: & to speake with strange toongs, which they haue not by inspiration, and that with­out anie interpretation, which S. Paule expresselie forbiddeth.

It is requisite and draweth néerer to the purpose, to know, what was temporall in these giftes, Bridges and what perpetuall: what is ceased, expi­red, What gifts and offices were tem­porall, what perpetuall. determined, and hath no place, and what remaineth: for feare, we should offend either waie: vrging that to be temporall which is perpetuall, or that to be perpetuall which was but temporall. For the error of this, breedeth most of all these troubles betweene vs. Where­in our bretheren doo bothe wayes greatlie mistake these giftes. For first, where they saye: Some were temporall, seruing onelie for the first planting and foundation of the churche among the Heathen: ( and of this former sorte, they reckon vp the Apostles, Prophets, E­uangelists, men indued with graces of powers, of healings:) and so they enter into their particuler prooues, of the ceasing of these functions: I thinke they maye better be-thinke them-selues, that all these giftes and offices, which their selues haue héere named, did not so cease, but that they haue since the firste planting and foundation [Page 69] of the churche among the Heathen, continued longer time among the Christians.

Yea, some of them, haue for a great part of the time, continued euen till our owne times, & yet continue. As the operation of great workes. Or if they meane thereby myracles, which were not ordinarie, no not in that extraordinarie time: and as the hypocrites had them also, so might and had diuerse of the Papists, and yet their cause neuer the better. And the like may we say of the gift of speaking with toongs, which haue not béene by studie before learned, as Anthonie, &c: and diuerse also both of the an­cient fathers, and some among the Papists, and some among vs, haue not béene destitute of the gift of prophesie, and much more may I say this, for the gift of healing: for none of these giftes or graces giuen then, or since, or yet, to men, inferre the gift & grace of Gods election, adoption, or be of necessitie to saluation. But, were there no other gifts and offices then, in the primitiue church, but these six, by our brethren heere reckoned, be­sides the foure, which they make standerds and remainers? Looke on the places before cited, and there we shall finde a great many moe, Moe ordi­narie gifts then our brethren mention. of which the most part haue euer béene, and yet are, euen as much, or farre more ordinarie giftes or offices, then these foure, which they saye are perpe­tuall.

S. Paule ( as is aforesaid) distinguishing these giftes, saith, Rom. 12.6. Seeing then that we haue giftes which are diuerse, according to the grace that is giuen vnto vs, whether we haue prophecie, let vs prophesie, according to the pro­portion of faith: or an office, let vs waite on the office: or he that teacheth on tea­ching: or be that exhorteth on exhortation he that distributeth, let him doo it with simplicitie: hee that ruleth, with diligence: hee that sheweth mercie with cheerefulnesse. Héere also are other giftes and offices reckoned vp, besides these foure of Doctors, Pastors, Gouernors and Deacons. If he meane by office, some particular function, which is ceased: that would be shew­ed: or els it may remaine and be still perpetuall. If he meane by teaching, Doctor, by exhorting, Pastor: by distributing Deacon. by ruling, one of those not teaching presbyters, preests, or elders, which our brethren call Gouernors▪ yet that which before the Apostle called an office, and that which followeth of shewing mercie, are particulerlie specified and distinguished from these foure, Doctor, Pastor, Gouernour, and Deacon. In what place then shall we reckon those two: either as temporall, or as perpetuall? if temporall: then is there moe ceased, then those sixe. If perpetuall: then more than these foure doo remaine

Likewise, Saint Paule ( as is aforesaid) 1. Cor. 12. saith. There are di­uersities of giftes, &c. For to one is giuen, by the spirit, the worde of wisedome: and to another the word of knowledge by the same spirit: and to another is giuen faith by the same spirit: and to another the operation of great workes: and to an­other [Page 70] other prophesie: and to another the discerning of spirites: and to another the di­uersities of t [...]onges: and to another the interpretation of toonges. All these the Apostle héere setteth downe, as giftes or offices, distinguished one from another.

What now shall we saye to the gifte or office, of them▪ that had the worde of wisedome giuen vnto them? Was that a temporall gifte or office, seruing onelie for the firste planting and foundation of the churche among the Heathen? If they saye the aboundant measure of it was temporall: that maye be granted: and yet the gifte and office still remaine. And so likewise, of the next gifte or office, in them that haue the gifte of knowledge or learning. For these are distinguished héere the one from the other, (as we commonlie say: The greatest clearkes ar [...] not alwayes the wisest men,) and these our brethren, as they profe [...] all-ouer this their booke, A learned discourse, do so beléeue, that they hau [...] the spirite of knowledge: otherwise they would not commend this trea­tise vnto vs by such a Title: so that, I perceaue this gifte also is not yet ceased, but that it maye be ioyned to those (their foure) remain­ders.

And what shall we saye, to that the Apostle calleth héere the gifte of Faithe: making it also a distinct office from the residue? If we saye, he meaneth the faith of miracles: then are those two giftes following, of healing and of the operation of great workes, not to be vnder­stood of the gift of miracles. So that, either the one or the other, séem [...] to be perpetuall. And what shall we saye, to the gifte or office of discerning spirites? For Saint Iohn, 1. Iohn. 4. verse. 1. saith vnto vs: Deerelie beloued, beleeue not euerie spirite, but trie the spirits whether they are of God: for manie false Prophets are gone out into the worlde. Which Epistle, being called Catholike or Vniuersall, serueth to all ages and people of the Churche: and the gifte of trying or discerning spirites, is yet requisite, if not more néedefull nowe, then euer it was.

To conclude, for this place: what shall we saye for the gifte or of­fice, if not of diuersities of toongs, yet, of the interpretations of toongs▪ Which gifte or office is not onelie at this daye, to be with all thanke­fulnesse acknowledged: but GOD which is the author of all goo [...] giftes, is highlye to be praised for it, and many of our good brethren are indued therewith.

Moreouer, in the place héere by our brethren quoted, Saint Paul [...] distinguisheth the gifte or office of helping, from that of healing. And are all these giftes and offices ceased, as temporall, and seruing onelie to the first planting and foundation of the churche among the Heathen? Naye rather, doo not the most of them remaine still in the [Page 71] churche among the faithfull, for the continuall building, confirmation, and establishing of them?

I graunt, th [...] remaine in another sorte, then as they were firste gi­uen in the primi [...]e churche: and for the moste times since, they haue béene giuen perhaps in an other manner, and in lesse aboundance or measure of them. But that is not the question: but whether all these giftes and offices, besides the foure, of Doctors, Pastors, Gouer­nours, and Deacons, ( as they deuide them,) haue béene expired, & ceased to be in the churche, since the firste planting and foundation thereof among the Heathen. For this is our brethrens conclusion: Likewise, as we doo plainelie see, that the giftes of healing, of powers or mira­cles, and of diuerse toongs, haue long since ceased to bee in the churche: so the offices of them, which were grounded vpon these gifts, must also cease and be determined. And shall not we then conclude on the contrarie, that the giftes yet in parte remaining, the offices must in parte remaine also?

I speake not this, to confirme the Papists, of whome our brethren (I graunt) doo well conclude, in saying: Therefore the Papists doo vainelie reteine the name of exorcistes, when they cannot caste out diuels: and extreame vnction, when they cannot cure diseases: and to speake with strange toonges, which they haue not by inspiration, and that without anye interpretation, which Saint Paule expresselie for­biddeth.

This dealing of the Papists was méere ridiculous and impious, pro­céeding from a blinde zeale, and preposterous imitation of that which they had not. And yet whether they had it, or not, would néeds make or­dinarie offices and imitations of them. Howbeit, how faultie soeuer they were therein: yet belye not (as they saye) the diuell. Their faulte was not, that they spake with strange toongs, which they had not by inspiration: for if they had not had them by inspiration, and yet had they vnderstood them, and the people which heard them, had vnderstood them also: then had this béene no faulte in them, except in speaking faul­tie matter.

But is this true, that the gifte ceasing, the office ceaseth? What then if the gifte of ruling, that Saint Paule speaketh of Rom. 12. verse. 8. And the giftes of those Gouernours, whome he men­tioneth, 1. Corinth. 12. verse▪ 28. ( vnderstanding the same as our bre­theren doo) haue ceased or doo cease, or should cease: The gift [...] of rulin [...]. will they graunt that the office of their desired Seniorie, whome they call Rulers or Gouernours, shoulde cease also, and bee expired or determined? And must wee vpon this presupposall, that there was anye suche then (which pointe is afterwarde fo [...] to bee examined) suppose [Page 72] also that this gifte of ruling that anye such had, hath so remained euer since?

Nay, if it be demanded further, whether either gifte or office thereof (vnderstanding the same as they doo) haue not since that time, euen from the first planting and foundation of the churche among the Heathen, and from thence euen till our time, discontinued? And besides all this: what warrant out of Gods word can be shewed, more for those rulers or Gouernors ( if they will néeds vnderstand thereby their seniorie, of which neither haue we any warrant) that they be more perpetuall then the o­ther? Or the other more temporall then these? And that these are of the later kinde, as are Doctors, Pastors, and Deacons, perteining to the nourishing and building vp of the churche for euer.

Our brethren haue alledged some-what for the ceasing of the other: is there anye thing alledged héere, for the perpetuitie of these Seniors: if they runne backe to their former search of the holie scriptures, to find out what order our Sauiour Christe, our onelie housholder, hath set foorth in them, by which he would haue his houshold directed in all thinges, perteining to the eternall saluation of vs men: we finde that all those giftes or offices, or the most of them, yea those which they say are ceased, are drawing néerer to matters perteining to saluation, then is this, of ruling or gouerning. Neither hath this any further warrant of remaining in the churche, then had the other. Now holdeth therefore this argument of our brethren? We finde ( say they) that there was such a se­niorie, set foorth by Christe in the holie scriptures: therefore, that of­fice must needs be one of those that are perpetuall, perteining to the nourishing and building vp of the church for euer. What reason d [...] they héere alledge for it? Nay, no reason, but this: Either it is of the one sorte, or of the other, temporall, or perpetuall: but, it is not of the one, to wit, temporall: Ergo, it is of the other sorte, that is, perpetuall. This rea­son is good, if the parts of it were as good. But howe doo our brethren prooue, it is not of the former sorte, that is to saye, temporall? Of the former sorte, that is to say, temporall, and which are ceased, there are but sixe reckoned by our brethren, Apostles, Prophets, Euangelists, men indued with the graces of powers, of healings, and of diuerse toongs: but the gift of ruling or gouerning is none of these: and therfore it must néeds be of the other kinde, and so, perpetuall. And how doo our brethren prooue there are but sixe of the former or temporall sorte? What if we can prooue by their owne place hé [...]re cited, that there were moe? And what if they all ceased not? And why may not this gift or office o [...] those kinde of rulers or gouernors, goe among the number of that former sorte with the sixe, which they call temporall, and make vp the seauenth, or rather the seuenté [...]nth, if they will accoūt them all in that former sort? [Page 73] Surely, except we make this our fourth Principle to our former three or rather this our first and last, our vnquestionable maximie, against the which there is no disputing▪ because (as ipse dixit) these our brethren the learned discoursers haue coursed it ouer, and ouerruled it, and so it is be­come a ruled case: here is else, nothing in the worlde to prooue it. And vp­on this they conclude, saying:

There remaineth therefore of these before rehearsed, The learned dis­course. Page. 7. & 8 onely in the Church, these Eccl. offices instituted of God: namely, Pastors, Doctors, Gouernors, & Deacons: by which the Church of God, may (according to his worde) bee directed in all matters, which are commonly called Ecclesiasticall. And therefore, as it is vnlawefull, so it is vnneedefull for men, following the deuises of their owne brayne, without the warrant of Gods worde, to institute and ordaine any other offices or kindes of ministerie besides these, appointed and approued by God himselfe, VVhat offi­ces remain [...] in the church. ex­ercised in the primitiue and pure Church, vntill the mysterie of iniqui­tie working a way for Antichristes pride & presumption, changed Gods ordinance, and brought in all kinde of false doctrine & confusion: and nowe againe, restored in all rightly reformed Churches, with such day­ly encrease, and glorye of the kingdome of Christe, and suppression of the tyrannie of Sathan, that the onely experience hereof, might bee a sufficient perswasion to vs to leaue this disordered state of ours, wher-in we haue so long labored with so litle profite: and to embrace that most beautifull order of eccl. regiment, which God so manifestly doth blesse and prosper in our neighbours handes.

We haue hearde what inuincible prooues ( as our brethren imagine) they haue found, and brought foorth out of the holy scriptures, Bridges to inferre the grounds of their desired Ecclesiastical gouernment. Now vpon these groundes and prooues ( such as they are) they resolutely procéede to the finall conclusion and determinate sentence of this matter, by whome all Ecclesiasticall matters shal-be directed, saying: There remayneth there­fore of these before rehearsed, only in the Church, these eccl. offices, in­stituted of God; namely, Pastors, Doctors, Gouernors and Deacons: by which the Church of God may according to his worde bee directed in all matters which are commonly called ecclesiasticall. Our Bretherens Terrar­chie, of 4. Persons. & their dissent from those our other Bretheren, which make à Pentarchy of 5. or a Tritarchie of 3.

In this peremptorie conclusion, the direction of all eccl. matters, is here to be onely gouerned by foure kinde of persons. Howbeit, the frute­full Sermon, vpon 1. Cor. 12. printed also 1584. by Rob. Walde-graue the printer of this learned discourse, maketh fiue ordinarie and perpetuall offices: Doctors, Pastors, Deacons, Rulers, and Attenders on the poore. But here by these our brethren (the Learned discoursers,) is erected a Tetrarchie, or Quadriuiratus, that is to say, a Catergouernment. And if (as diuerse expounde it) Pastors, & Teachers, be coincident in one office [Page 74] and person, as the text it selfe, Ephes. 4.11. Ioyntly setteth them toge­ther and not disiunctiuely, which it doth in the other offices there mentio­ned: and as the Scottish booke ( taken from the English Church in Gene­ua) séemeth to make no necessity of hauing Doctors, distinct from Pastors, saying: Although we are not ignorant, that the scripture maketh menti­on of a fourth kinde of ministers, left vnto the Church of Christe, which also are verie profitable, where time and place doe permit: and so ac­counting no further on Doctors, set downe but thrée: so that by them, it is but a Tritarchie, or Triumuiratus, as that kind of gouernement was called, when Lepidus, Anthonie, and Augustus parted the Romaine gouernement among them three, into a Triple regiment. If it fall not out alike, that as two then, made the thirde a cifer, and the one of those two did eate vppe the other, and all resolued into a Monar­chie: so in the ende, Monarchie and all being turned out, a fourth stept in, and set vp a Triple crowne for all. But what this Tetrarchie heer [...] erected will resolue into, in euerie particular Congregation, and that in all and euerie Ecclesiastical matter that is to be directed, and what they will comprehende vnder the name of Ecclesiasticall matter: is discoursed afterwarde.

But if this Tetrarchie be not instituted of God himselfe, nor accor­ding to the warrant of Gods worde, A greater Mysterye in contending for this Ca­ter-gouern­ment of these 4. cor­nered Per­sons, then the conten­tion was be­fore against the 4. cor­nerd caps. ordayned, appointed, nor appro­ued so to be: as we haue hetherto séene no such institution, appoynting, ordayning nor approouing: then am I afrayde (I burden none, but I feare it shrewdelie, if I haue not myste the marke) that there is a mysterie, which our well meaning bretheren see not, and therefore feare not: euen mysterium iniquitatis, that lyeth hydden in this partition of gouerning and directing all matters. I wishe the best, and therefore if I feare the worst: I hope I am the easier to bee par­doned.

Nowe, although this conclusion of Quartering, Fiuefolding, or trypling of this gouernment, séemeth at the first not to inferre anie pre­cise necessitie: yet by the Correllatiue, whiche of consequence they make to fall out on this conclusion, that other offices in the direction and gouernment of all Ecclesiasticall matters, are not onely vnneede­full but vnlawefull: The necessi­tie that they make of this Tetrar­chie. What is their resolution other then this? not as they mollified it before, that by these foure or thrée kindes of offices, ( as other contract them, and our brethren heere enlarge them, other stretch them furder into fiue) the Church of God may be directed in all matters which are commonly called Ecclesiasticall: But, the Church of God must be directed by none other.

How-be-it this consequence, doeth not absolutely so set it downe, saying: And therefore, it is not onely vnneedefull, but also vnlawe­full, [Page 75] for men, &c. to institute and ordaine any other offices or kindes of ministerie besides these: But sayling as it were with a side winde, séeming rather to runne vppon the needelesse, then, the lawelesse point, they rather séeme to insinuate it, then to inforce it, that it is vn­lawefull. And in verie deede, as they sette out the matter, their conclusion seemeth good and true, saying: And therefore as it is vnlawefull, so it is vnneedefull for men, following the deuises of their owne braine, without the warrant of Gods woorde, to institute and ordaine any other offices or kindes of ministerie, besides these appoin­ted and approued by God himselfe, exercised in the primitiue and pure Church, &c.

For, mens following the deuises of their owne brayne, Mens follo­wing the deuises of their owne braine. without the warrant of Gods woorde, in anie matter of importaunce, is a great offence. Yea, be-it in neuer so meane a matter, haue it no war­rant at all, neyther expressed nor conteyned, eyther in specialtie or generalitie in Gods worde: It is not so vnneedefull as vnlawefull, and a presumptuous rashnesse, when men are so head-strong and selfe­wéening, that they will followe no good Counsell, but the deuises of their owne brayne. And therefore, for our brethren to apply this, to all those that followe the gouernement established, were no lesse vnlawfull then vnneedefull.

Yea, howe may not this (my Masters) light on your selues? For what warrant haue you eyther expressed or included, for all the thinges contayned in this your platforme? yea, No warrant of this Te­trarchie in Gods word. for the institution and the or­dayning of all these offices and kindes of ministerie, and the per­petuitie of them in this foure quartered gouernement? Will you alledge that such offices are mentioned in Gods worde? Take héede yée mistake not, but that they were indéede such offices. But were this a sufficient proofe, that they were instituted and ordayned to be offices or kindes of ministerie, appointed and approued by God himselfe: Can you shewe this warrant also? And yet if you could doe all this: how would this suf­ [...]se, except with-all ye shewe vs a warrant for the perpetuitie, of all and onely these foure offices or kindes of ministerie? You are not ignorant what a warrant is: and I warrant you, and dare giue you there-on your (quietus est,) that, as you haue not yet founde it, so yée shall neuer be able (with all the learned discoursing in the worlde) to finde this warrant. For, thinke ye (if ye were able to finde thus much) that the warrant here­of doth goe n [...] furder then here ye say, appointed and approued by God him selfe? so were all the offices and kindes of ministerie of the Mosai­call and Templarie Priesthoode: and yet they were but temporall, and are ceased. Yea, so were the offices and kindes of ministerie of the Apostles, Prophetes, Euangelistes, men indued with the graces, [Page 76] of powers, Tetrarchy. of healings, and of diuerse tongues: and yet your selues c [...] ­fesse that all these are ceased, expired, determined, and haue no place. And therefore, if ye can shewe this warrant of Gods worde, for the Te­trarchie perpetually remayning of these eccl. offices instituted of God [...] namely, Pastors, Doctors, Gouernours, and Deacons: by which the Church of God, may (according to his word) be directed in all matters, which are commonly called eccl. shewe howe God appointed and ap­proued it, be-it, by himselfe, or by his Apostles, to be perpetually exerci­sed in his Church: and then foorth-with we yéelde.

And if ye can not doe this: then sée (good brethren) how this your owne conclusion here, reboundeth on your owne selues: Therefore as it is vn­lawfull, so it is vnneedefull for men, fo [...]lowing the deuises of their own braine, without the warrant of Gods worde, to institute and ordayne any other offices or kindes of ministerie, besides (not onely as you say) these appoynted and approued by God himselfe: but those that are ap­pointed and approued either by God himselfe, or by his Apostles, to be perpetually exercised in his Church.

But our brethren (belike) perceauing, that they had not sayd ynough for the proofe of these offices or kindes of ministerie: they Indorse their con­clusion (for the more strength) with this addition: exercised in the pri­mitiue and pure Church. The exercise of the primitiue church. Here is nowe set downe (as they conceaue) [...] sufficient and full warrant, for all these offices or kinds of ministerie, appointed and approued of God himselfe: But where, or how, no place is here alleaged, eyther in text or margine. For I would faine sée that place set downe, that we might haue the full viewe thereof, whether it were s [...] or no indéede, and in what manner it were of God himselfe appointed and approued. But if that faile: loe the practise, exercised in the primi­tiue and pure Church. I thinke so indéede, if euer it were appointed and approued by God himselfe at all. But so were the Apostles, Prophetes, Euangelistes, men indued with the graces, of powers, of healings, and of diuerse tongues. Yea, but exercised in the primitiue and pure church vntill the mysterie of iniquitie working a way for Antichristes pride and presumption, The bring­ing in of all kinde of fals doctrin. chaunged Gods ordinance, and brought in all kinde of false doctrine and confusion.

Nay, who there (Masters mine,) not so. For then it had béene exer­cised without interruption euen vntill this day. For all kind of false do­ctrine was not brought in, by manie hundred yeares, (after your owne reckoning) that this office or kinde of Gouernours ( if euer there w [...]r [...] any such office as you would now erect) was ceased. And Sathan hath [...] ­wayes béene sowing newe kindes of false doctrine, and I doubt w [...] ­ther all his kindes of false doctrine be yet brought in, or no.

But if ye said: it was exercised in the primitue and pure Church, vn­till [Page 77] the mysterie of iniquitie beganne to worke a way to Antichrists pride and presumption: although neither this be true, for all these foure offi­ces and kindes of ministerie in such manner as you vrge them: yet in say­ing so, you should better limite your selues within the boundes, that you chiefely stande on. The begin­ning of the mysterie of iniquitie. But when (trowe you) that mysterie of iniquitie be­ganne to worke. Was it not begunne, when S. Paule, sayde, 2. Thess. 2.7. The mysterie of iniquitie doth alreadie worke? Was it not begunne, when S. Iohn saide, 1. Iohn 2.18. Babes, it is the last time: and as ye haue hearde that Antichriste shall come, euen nowe are there manie Antichristes, whereby we knowe that it is the last time? But what inferreth this, (had there béene then such a Seniorie of Gouernors) that this office should remaine in the Church perpetually? For, in the primitiue and pure Church, were the Apostles: must we therefore perpetually haue Apostles? Nay (say they) it was not onely exercised in the primitiue Church, The pure Church. which may be called the time while the Apostles liued: but also in the pure Church. Not ve­rye pure I wisse in some pointes, within short while after the Apostles times.

But what time assigne ye to the exercise thereof? Date some time. Vn­till the mysterie of iniquitie working a way, for Antichristes pride and presumption, changed Gods ordinance. This is an vncertaine limita­tion. But what is this? Was Gods ordinance changed then, in so ne­cessarie and perpetuall an office? And howe was this office changed? Was it taken cleane away from the Church, so that the Church was al­together without it? It hath had Pastors, Teachers, and Deacons: ( such as they were, good or bad) alwayes hetherto, and neuer wanted as yet, vntill this houre. And was this seniorie of Gouernours appointed to remaine as long as they, and haue al they held out perpetually: and hath onely this Seniorie fayled? But still would I faine knowe, When Gods ordinance was chan­ged. some more certaine ghesse of the time, when this change hapned. For here are ney­ther Archbishops nor Bishops named, but onely these 4. Eccl. offices, Pa­stors, Doctors, Gouernours, and Deacons, by which (they say) the Church of God may, (according to his word) be directed in all matters, &c. And was there no exercise of Archbishops nor Bishops in the primi­tiue and pure Church? Or doe they include Archb. and Bishops in anie of these termes, because they are Gouernours of the Church, and are Pastors, and Teachers, and such as haue béene Deacons too? As S. Am­brose comprehendeth in the name of Bishops ( as we shall afterward, God willing, sée) all the inferiour Eccl. offices. And our brethren, where they should graunt that all Bishops are Pastors, graunt that all Pastors are Bi­shops, though their chiefe drift be against our Bishops: but they impugne not onely the office, but the verie name and all of the Archbishops, and make them to be other offices, or kindes of ministerie besides these ( that [Page 78] they say) are appointed and approued of God himselfe, exercised in the primitiue and pure Churche: and therefore the instituting and or­dayning of them, to be but mens following the deuices of their owne brayne: and to bee, as vnlawefull, so vnneedefull, and the changing of Gods ordinance.

But, if Bishops and Archbishops made this change: then was that ordinance changed, euen in the primitiue and pure Church. For euen then was Titus made an Archbishoppe, and had manie other Bishoppes vnder his gouernement, as we haue séene partly alreadie, for the order in Creete appointed by Saint Paule, whose act was (no doubt) appro­ued by God him selfe, and the Archiepiscopall iurisdiction, exercised by Titus: And was this deuised of Saint Paule or Titus, following the deuises of their owne braines, as a needelesse and vnlawfull thing? as a thing done without, and besides the warrant of Gods worde? Or ha [...] he not good warrant from God to institute and ordaine other offices or kindes of ministerie, then these fower? So that this conclusion of our brethren: (There remaineth therefore of these before rehearsed, onely in the Church, these Ecclesiasticall offices instituted of God: namely, Pastors, Archb. & B. [...]boue all these Te­ [...]rarkes. Doctors, Gouernours, and Deacons: by which the Church of God▪ may (according to his worde) bee directed in all matters, &c.) is nothing so nor so. For heere (ye sée) is another office appointed ouer all these offices nether is it vnlawfull nor vnneedefull, nor the institution or ordinance of men, following the deuises of their owne brayne, or without the warrant of Gods worde, or not appointed and approoued by God himselfe, or not exercised in the primitiue and pure Churche, or anie chaunge of Gods ordinance, or anie working a way to An­tichristes pride and presumption, that the Bishoppes and Archbishops were brought in, and that this Tetrarchie was dissolued, if indéede ther [...] had béene anie such Quadripartite or foure quartered gouernement. As for the office or kinde of ministerie of Bishoppes or Archbishops, though it be not (in the substance thereof) anie other office or kinde o [...] ministerie, different from the office of Pastor or Teacher: ( for notwi [...] ­standing it followe not, that euerie Pastor or Teacher bee a Bishoppe, ( as our brethren saye,) or an Archbishoppe: yet euerie Bishoppe or Archbishoppe is in his office and kinde of ministerie a Pastor and Tea­cher) neuerthelesse sithe hee is their ordayner or ordinarie, as wee terme it, and the ouerséer euen as well of them, as of the people, accor­to the diuisions of Regions, Cities, and Townes, distributed and limited to his gouernement: he is in dignitie of an other office and kind of ministerie, different from them.

And shall wee nowe dare to saye, that this office of Bishoppe [...] Archbishoppe doeth worke a way to Antichristes pride and presump­tion? [Page 79] Nay rather, it was the readiest waye, to restrayne and represse it, Archb. if it had beene alwayes kept accordingly: that Bishoppes, The office of Archb. & B. the readiest way to re­presse Anti­christs pride and tyranny in their Cities and Dioceses; Archbishoppes in their Prouinces and Regions distri­buted and limited vnto them, as Creta was by Saint Paule to Ti­tus ( reseruing to Christian Princes, as their Soueraignes their Su­preame gouernement) should (according to Gods worde) direct in their Consistories, Synodes and Councelles, all matters which are common­ly called Ecclesiasticall.

This was, and is, (in my iudgement) euen the best waye, that could be deuised ( and I like my iudgement the better, because of this ap­poyntment and approbation of Saint Paule) to haue stopped the way to Antichristes pride and presumption. Which way of Saint Paule, when one Archbishoppe afterwarde, vnder a name and pretence of S. Peter, to haue an higher office then all these Bishoppes or Archbishoppes had, The breach of the Arch. and B. offi­ces & autho­rities was the readiest way to An­tichristes pride and tyrannie. yea, to haue an vniuersall Bishopricke ouer all, and to represent Iesus Christe the head-shep-hearde and chiefe Bishoppe of our soules, aboue all other Bishoppes and Archbishoppes, which were distributed and limited in Regions, Cities and Townes, tooke vpon him, as though hee onely had a supreame and generall office or kinde of ministerie with­out any limitation of Towne, Citie, or Region, but reaching ouer all the vniuersall Church, yea, ouer all the whole worlde: this breach of these Bishoppes and Archbishops office and ministerie, was the working of the way to Antichristes pride and presumption: and not the institution and ordeyning, nor the distributing & limiting of this Episcopall or Ar­chiepiscopall office or kinde of ministerie. For else, whie might they not as well say, that Christes vniuersall Bishopricke or Archbishopricke, did worke a way to Antichristes pride and presumption, because Antichrist pretendeth, vsurpeth & abuseth, that office and kinde of ministerie, which is due and proper onely to Christe?

Christe (1. Pet. 2. vers. 7. & 8.) is called a stone, and the head of the corner, and a stone of offence. If Christe then had not béene the stone: they had not stumbled at him. Nay, then; If there were no Christe: there could be no Antichriste. If there had béene no Archbishoppe: the Pope had not béene the Archbishoppe of Rome, nor had wrought the way to his pride and presumption. And so, if there were no vse, there were no abuse of any thing.

Shall we lay therefore the fault on the right or institution, because by indirect means an abuse, or pretence, or vsurpatiō falleth out, or is brought in? What then may not worke the way of what ye will? but if ye marke it well: this argument maketh cleane against you. For, the chiefest way to Antichristes pride and presumption was, to change, to abbridge, to pull downe, and to encroch vpon the office and ministerie of Bishops, [Page 80] and Archbishops: and therefore the institution and maintenance of them, was one of the greatest impedimentes, that Antichriste had. And till hée brought all their lawful offices and ministeries vnder his pride and pre­sumption, he could neuer worke that mysterie of iniquitie that hee hath done.

So long as the Archbishoppe of Carthage kept him short in Afrike, and detected his forgeries to encroch vppon them: and likewise of the o­ther Archbishoprickes: he could not worke his mysterie of iniquitie [...] ­mong them. Yea, the litle Archbishop of Rauenna vnder his nose, held [...] him long tackling.

And if this pretended Seniorie of Gouernours, be as directly contrary to the right institution of Bishops and Archbishops, as Antichristes my­sterie of iniquitie and his intollerable pride and presumption is: then, either is this institution of Bishops and Archbishops in medio, and either of them ab extremo in extremum, The Archb. office a bet­ter stop a­gainst anti­christ, then th [...]se Te­trarkes. as the mediocritie of Iustice betwéene mi­nus and nimium: or else, this Seniorie of Gouernours is nearer this my­sterie of iniquitie, to worke the way to Antichristes pride and presump­tion. For, let the Bishops and Archbishops holde intierly their instituti­on: and they may better kéepe out Antichristes pride and presumption, then can these Seniours: who may more easily giue occasion to the settin [...] vp a 1000. petite-Antichristes full of pride and presumption too: then [...] able to pull downe or to restraine, the pride and presumption of that on [...] great Antichriste.

Neither hath the office of Bishop or Archbishop, brought in all kind of false doctrine, The euil of­ficers & not the office of Archb. & B. brought in false do­ctrine. or anie one kinde, except indirectly by the officers, not by the office. And so not onely Nestorius, and some few others that wer [...] Arch-bishops, but a number mo, as Arius, Pelagius, Eutiches, &c. that were Presbyters, Priestes, or Elders and Doctors, brought in false doctrine. Yea, Nicholas also (as it is saide) one of the first 7. Deacons. And should anie rightly thereupon charge these offices, to bring in false doctrine, because some such officers did bring it in? There was false do­ctrine brought in, in the primitiue Church: and shall we burden the pri­mitiue Church therewith? Thus indéede doe the Papistes burden both v [...] and our brethren: and so here our brethren burden vs. And shall we th [...] burden them againe? For, (set aside all partialitie) who may not easi [...] sée, that this Eccl. kinde of gouernment which they so much desire (whi [...] the Gouernors are not learned men) would of the twaine giue readie [...] occasion, then our gouernment established, not onely to more newe deui­ses of their owne braines, concerning gouernment: but also, if any ne [...] kin [...]e of false doctrine arise, to maintaine the same, and to make mor [...] factions about it, notwithstanding all the assistaunce of their lesser and greater Synodes.

[Page 81] Yea, would to God all kind of doctrine brought in by our brethren, The state of the refor. Churches. by occasion of these their controuersies for the alteration of gouernement, were so true and sounde, as I with it were: which as occasion (God wil­ling) shall serue I will furder declare: hoping yet that with some gentle constructions (whereof I would be right glad) all may be construed to the best: and that perceiuing their errors, they will say with Augustin [...] rare possum, H [...]reticus esse nolo. I maie hap to erre: I purpose not to bee an Heritike, that is, obstinately to maintaine an errour. But whereas they saie, all kinde of false doctrine and confusion, howsoeuer they maye es­cape either all or some kind of false doctrine: this desired gouernment is a great deale more prone to confusion, than is the gouernement establi­shed.

Now after these defacings of the offices and ministery in the gouerne­ment established amongst vs: The Tetrar­chy com­mended. they recommend their desired gouernment of this Tetrarchie vnto vs, saying: And now againe, restored in al right­ly reformed Churches, with such daily encrease and glorie of the king­dome of Christ, and suppression of the kingdome of Anti-Christe, that the onely experience heereof, might be a sufficient perswasion to vs to leaue this disordred state of ours, wherein wee haue so long laboured, with so little profit: and to embrace that moste bewtifull order of Ec­clesiastical regiment, which God so manifestlie doth blesse & prosper in our neighbours handes.

Whether that Ecclesiasticall Gouernment which was exercised in the Primitiue and pure Church, be now againe restored: The resto­ring Eccl. gouernmēt in the refor­med Chur­ches. or some other (in some points perhaps) like to that, may make a quaeri potest, and require a further view. But whether it be restored in all rightly reformed Chur­ches, so that, all reformed Churches are not rightly reformed, but wrōgfully reformed, and so not reformed, but deformed: as hauing driuen out one Diuell by another, and remoued one deformity, and established another: that, might growe to more than to a question: Yea, to an open slaunder not onely of vs, but of many true Christian and godly reformed Churches, besides ours.

What daily encrease it maketh among our neighbours ( where they say this is restored) of the kingdome of Christ, The bewti­ful state of our neigh­bours refo [...] ­med Chur­ches. and how it setteth foorthe his glory, more then other reformed churches do: and howe it more sup­presseth the tyrannie of Sathan: these things are caried away so smoothly and so solemnely avowed, (as though all were Gospell) that not only wee must not denie it, but beleeue it: nor onely yeelde vnto it (as moste true) but be moued with such emulation of it, that the onelie experience might be a sufficient perswasion to vs to leaue this disordered state of ours, wherein wee haue so long laboured with so little profit, and to embrace that moste bewtifull order of Ecclesiastical regiment, which God so ma­nifestlie [Page 82] nifestlie doth blesse and prosper in our neighbours hands. The state of the ref. Churches.

It is an olde saying, faire words make fooles faine: and heere are ve­ry faire words of our neighbours state, though as fowle of our owne. If nowe for these faire and foule wordes of our brethren, we will be­come such fooles, to mislike and leaue our owne, and embrace an others. T [...] goodly shewe of a fayrer bone perswaded Aesops Dog, to leaue the go [...] bone that he had alreadie in his mouth, and to leape into the water, after the shadowe of another. I praie GOD our brethren allure vs not with the like bayte of some faire shadow, to leaue the good state wee haue of gouernment established.

They entice vs héere with maruelous goodlie thinges, as right refor­mation, daily encrease and glory of the kingdome of Christ: they wilt vs to embrace that moste bewtifull order of Ecclesiasticall regiment, which God so manifestlie doth blesse and prosper in our neighboures handes. This beawtie were inough to enamoure a man: this prosperi­tie and blessing to set his téeth an edge, and to enflambe the harte of anye zealous, and godly meaning man, in the spiritual loue of God, for the en­crease and glory of his kingdome, and the desire to haue him blesse and prosper our estate.

But, is all this true in our neighbours, and is our owne state so dis­ordred,, Our brethe [...]ens defa­cing of our estate. and so laboursome with so little profit? For, otherwise, as our brethren in their Preface, likned our Prelates and ministers, to foxes and little foxes: so I remember, that once I reade a tale of a Foxe that had lost his taile, and because other had tayles, and hee had none: he went a­bout to perswade all his brethren, to leaue their tailes, for they were but an vnnecessary clogge and hinderance vnto them, trayling in the myre: which if it were away, O how light and nimble should they bee. And for example to perswade them the better, he shewed them the experience ( not in his neighbour) but in him-selfe. But one that knowe before on what necessity he had lost it: cried out vnto him, Brother Foxe, brother Foxe; leaue your faire perswasion. You haue lost your owne, and therefore you would haue vs to leaue ours to beare you company. But, what do ye tel vs héere (will our brethren say) a foolish flim flam tale of a foxe taile, to dallie out so waighty and so holie a matter: while we are earnest in per­swading to leaue this disordered state of ours, wherein we haue so long laboured with so little profit, and to embrace that moste bewtiful order of Ecclesiasticall regiment, which God so manifesttie doeth blesse and prosper in our neighbours handes. Indéed brethren if this were as true, as you héere go about to perswade it? I would yéeld gladly, and be soons perswaded. But if this be the méere following the deuises of your own braine, and nothing so, neither in vs, nor in our neighbours, as you would perswade vs: why may not a fained fable applyed to truth, aunswere a [Page 83] feyned perswasion, grounded on falsehoode? If yee bee so perswaded your selues, and thinke as ye say: it may bee, ye thinke so. Fortis imagina­tio in a mans owne brayne may worke wonders: but to perswade an-o­ther by anothers example, & by such an example as is neither necessary, nor fitte, nor sufficient; nor true: I may well shake off this fonde perswasi­on, neither comparing our brethren to Dogs or Foxes ( as they in bitter­nes compare vs though I may chaunce get a flappe with a Foxe tayle, (if not worse) for my labour.

But I pray you brethren, doe yee meane indéede good earneste as yee say, when ye tell vs, that the order of Ecclesiasticall Gouernment in the Primitiue Church is restored? for if it bee: The state of the Primi­tiue chur­ches gover­nement not restored. then haue wee newe Apo­stles, Prophetes, Euangelistes, &c. come againe. Yea, but (say you) those offices were temporall and are expyred: and therefore, are not to bee restored. Yea, but (say I) they were the chiefest offices, then, when the order of the Ecclesiasticall gouernment in the Primitiue Church was most bewtifull: and therefore, if they bee not restored, in whome the bewtie most consisted: then that state of Ecclesiasticall regiment, yea, the most bewtifull state thereof, is not, nor is to be restored. Yea, but (saye you) we restraine moste bewtifull, to the Offices that were perpetuall & to remaine for euer. Yea, Resoning the office of gouernours but (say I) how proue yee then your Seniour Gouernours, to be such, and to haue more Priuiledge of perpetuity, thē those better, higher, and more bewtifull offices had? and if they were to remaine for euer, why did they not so for euer remaine, but rather, for e­uer till now of late, so ceased to be in the Church, expired, and had no place: that they are now at length, euen at the laste caste of the worlde to be restored? If ye say the truth of the Gospell was hidden also, and the true professors of it: I graunt, it was so, and yet it was alwayes, and re­mayned still for euer, and wee can fetche and bring foorth, (againste the Gospels and our common aduersaries) witnesses more or fewer, yet some in all ages. And the like also, we can doe for Pastors, teachers, and Deacons, good and bad, in all ages, since the first institution of them. And can you (brethren) do the like for this your pretended gouerning and not teaching Seniory? if ye can, plead perpetuitie: if ye cannot (admitting that it once had bene) why crake ye of in others, or secke among vs, the resto­ring of that, which so many hundreth yeares, hath vtterly ceased to be in the Church, is expired and hath had no place? Ceased ( say you) de facto, but not de Iure. Proue you Ius, and wee will quicklie let fall our pleay de facto.

But till you can fynde either the righte, or the practise of them: or if they were once, where they haue beene hidden or banished al this whyle: Or if they dyed and were buried, till with the gifte of [Page 84] of working wonders, ye shall reuine and so restore them: what say you to those offices, that were then also, euen when Apostles, Prophetes, and Euangelists, &c. were aliue, and were ordeyned of the Apostles, and were offices distinguished in dignity from Pastors and Teachers, from Deacons or anie other gouerning Seniors, hauing authority ouer them, in the cities or regions limited vnto them? and these offices haue conti­nued euer since. If now therefore, the regiment of the Primitiue church be rightly reformed to the originall beawtie, Arch. & Bi. not to bee displaced by restoring the state of the Primit. church. then muste Bishops, and Arch-bishops stande, (for they stoode then,) what difference soeuer our brethren finde of standing now. And yet finde what difference they can, they shal finde, that if those Seniors ( imagining there were such as they pretende) be restored: both all they, and the Doctors, and Pastors, and Deacons, and all other Ecclesiastical officers, are al to be vnder the Ec­clesiasticall gouernment of Bishops and Arch-bishops. And if they stand not thus: to displace the superiour and y ^e old standard, to restore an inferi­our, and to set vp a new reuiued, fresh and young Senior: would so great­ly blemish the bewtifull order of this supposed Ecclesiasticall regiment, that, as it is said, at the second building of the Temple. Esra. cap. 3. ver. 12. that many of the Priestes and Leuites and the chiefe of the Fathers, auncient mē, which had seene the firste house, when the foundation of this house was laid, w [...]pt with a loude voice: So those that marke the bewtifull order of the Eccle­siasticall regiment in the Primitiue and pure Church indéede: and the most bewtifull order of the Ecclesiasticall regiment, that our brethren say, the church is now restored vnto, ( or rather vnder a name of resto­ring, VVho de­face the bewty of the refor­med Chur­ches. is not restored at all,) in those things for whiche they so contende, that they rather hinder the course of the Gospell, and decrease, not en­crease the kingdome of Christe, deface his glorye, make his Churche euill spoken of, rende the vnitie thereof, breake the broosed reede, and quenche the smoaking flaxe, and yet set all the house on fire, and call this right reforming, and restoring. It woulde so little moue anye that seriouslye considereth it, to embrace the state and order thereof, as most bewtifull: that if he did not detest it (with the common aduersaries) as most deformed: yet, loued he neuer so well the church, yea, the more he loued it, it would make his eyes, (not for ioy, but for gréefe of the sight) to water their plants, and his hearte throbbe, yea, bléede, to behold now the moste bewtifull bryde of Iesus Christe, howe her beawtie is va­ded, howe her ornamentes are spoyled, howe her bodye is haled, and almoste euen pulled in péeces: what by her aduersaries, what by our brethren her owne children, and all vnder pretence of reforming and restoring her: all is peace and encrease, and glorie, and em­bracing, and bewtifull, and blessed, and prospered, for the order, and state of the Churche with them: and wee that are the Churche [Page 85] of God also, our state ( for sooth) is a disordred state, we labour long, and we reape little profit by our labour.

Well, yet thankes be to God, if our state haue such ill lucke: that our neighbours haue better, The state of our neighbors. and that this moste bewtifull regiment of the Church is restored, at least among our neighbours. Our neighbours? This is a good hearing, Aliquod bonum propter vicinum bonum: And if they be so neare vs, let vs know them, that we may receaue some neighbor­lie comfort and refreshing by them.

Who are these our neighbors, where this state thus happily is restored? Do ye aske, who they are? Euen all the Churches that are rightlye restored. Nay, for Gods sake (my Maisters) say not so: for then, name me almost anie one reformed Church, that in one point or other, of order offices, discipline, rites and ceremonies, differeth not one from another. And which then among all these, are these our neighbours, which haue restored that regiment, and are rightly reformed? No refor­med Chur­ches but in some points of gouer. diff [...]r one frō another. The Scottish refor­med Churches are our néerest neighbours: but is their gouernment and orders, and making officers, and administration of Sacramentes, and booke of common Prayers, all one with these our Learned discoursers? and with the booke of common Prayers by our brethren now lastlie set forth? Or rather, is there not, euen in the booke of common Prayer, by them-selues compiled, betwéene the written booke, and that, that is prin­ted at Midleborough, and that at London, and that at Scotland, aboue a hundreth, yea, 200. yea, 300. differences one from an other: and all in a booke little bigger then an Almanack, but a matter, Differences euē in their booke of common prayer. wherin shoulde be greatest agréement of vniformity? Nay, doe our brethren héere at home agrée among them-selues in these matters of reformation? Or if all bee now agreed, may we set downe our rest vppon it, and resolue our selues, that these Learned discourses haue héere restored, the onely, very, true, whole perfect, and right reformation of that moste bewtifull order of Ecclesiasticall regiment, that was appointed and approoued by God himselfe, exercised in the Primitiue and pure Church, instituted and or­dained to continue for euer? O my Maisters, take heede what yee saye, least heereafter ye say, had I wist. Ye knowe whose saying that is.

Well, well: (will perhaps our brethren saye) some of our neighbors haue it: wee name none, leaste yee should say, wee preiudice any good neighbour of ours, as hauing not rightly reformed their Churches. For, though in all points, that most bewtifull order of Ecclesiasticall regimēt be not restored: yet is their state farre better than the disordered state of ours, wherein we haue so long laboured with so little profite, and con­trariwise which GOD so many wayes doth blesse and prosper in our neighbours handes, ( that if not the most) yet the bewtifull order of Ec­clesiasticall Regiment which they haue: Yea, the onelie experience of [Page 86] the daily encrease and glorie of the kingdome of Christe, and sup­pression of the tyrannie of Sathan, might be a sufficient perswasion for vs.

Experientia est Magistra Stultorum, as our brethren themselues do [...] afterwards pag. xlviij. tell vs. Our neigh­bours expe­rience no necessary paterne to vs. When the Asse that caried Salte, fal­ling downe in the water, and his salte melting awaie, g [...] vp agayne discharged of his burden: His fellowe Asse being loden with spoonges, sawe that, and hee fell downe likewise in the water, to trie the like experience. But his spoonges kept him downe, his experience drow­ned him. Non omnia conueniunt omnibus. Experience is not alwayes good vppon examples. Legibus non exemplis iudicatur. Had our neigh­bours restored it in verye déede: yet are not wee bounde to followe their example. The demur of this que­stion. No, not the example of the Primitiue Church it selfe, and much lesse those that follow their example. For, wee séeke not nowe what we may doo, or what might bee a sufficient perswasion vnto vs, if we would: but whet [...]er by any lawe or commaundement of Christe, or anye of his Apostles, wee be tied and bounde thereto, yea or no. Thi [...] is the very point that wee demurr vpon.

If God haue so prosperously blessed them, that would or haue happilie imitated, that supposed old order of Ecclesiasticall Regiment: God bee blessed for it. We reioyce of it, and congratulate with them, which soe­uer of our neighbours they be. But neither they, nor their imitation, pr [...] ­scribe vnto vs, nor their experience would fitte vs. Diuerse féete haue diuerse lastes. The shooe that will serue one, may wring another. Nei­ther yet is our state inferiour to theirs, or lesse blessed and prospered of the Lord, nor hath had lesse encrease & glory of the Lords kingdome, nor is lesse bewtifull: if we looke not with an euill eie, and a male-contente [...] minde on our owne state (as he saith)

Our neighbours haue this, our neighbours haue that: and wee want [...] these things. Fie (brethren) for shame, what neede this emulation of our neighbours, and murmuring against our owne state? And yet it is not altogether so, neither for them, (the more is the pitie, if it otherwise pleased God): Our owne [...]st [...]te. Neither for vs, (thanks be giuen to God for it) and for that plentifull measure of the encrease and glory of the kingdome o [...] Christ, in this our reformed Church of England: and for the suppressi­on of the tyrannie of Sathan and Anti-christe, and of his Ministers and [Page 87] confederates. Wee haue great cause highly to magnifie God, for the wō ­derfull and gratious works, he hath wrought for vs, aboue all our neigh­bours round about vs: yea, aboue all the particuler Churches néere or farre dispersed in the world at this day, euen in this estate of Ecclesiasti­call Gouernement established.

And all our neighbours, where GOD hath anie Churche neuer so muche reformed, doe (I hope) reioyce together with vs therefore: yea, not the beste of them, but (bee it spoken to the glorye of God, Our vnthākfulnesse for our estate. and without vpbraiding to others) haue found no small comfor­table benefite at our handes, and doe all most thankfully reacknowledge the same, without condemning, reprouing, or grudging at our state of Ec­clesiasticall gouernement established, what other kinde of reformation soeuer in their Ecclesiasticall Gouernement they bee directed by: Onelie we our selues murmur and grudge, condemne and slaunder, both among our selues, and to all our neighbours, our owne state, which is so euill, that woulde God ( were itaccording to his acceptable good pleasure) the kingdome and glory of Christe, and the suppression of Sathan and An­tichriste ( though I had rather wish it did no lesse) did but halfe as faste encrease and prosper, then (God bee glorified for it) in our state it doeth. And yet God graunt both in ours and in our neighbours states, and all other parts of Gods true Church, ( according as we al say in the Lordes Prayer, Thy kingdome come) these blessings of God, may daily more and more encrease and prosper. And so by Gods grace it shoulde still doe better and better (Maugre Sathan and Antichriste) if our owne bre­thren would not hindervs: and all reformed Churches shoulde doe well inough, notwithstanding we differ from them, and they from vs: Yea, though both of vs differ from the state of the Primitiue and pure Church, not in truthe of Faith and vnitie of Doctrine: But in matter, or manner of Orders, Offices, Rites and Ceremonies, concerning Ec­clesiasticall regiment, so farre as they are not prescribed by any perpe­tuall rule, other then for the time and state, or for order and comeli­nesse.

For, the difference of these thinges is not [...]irectlye materiall to salua­tion, neither ought to breake the bonde of peace and Chrystian concorde: But they may thinke and wishe well to vs, and wee in the name of the Lorde, thinke well, and wishe good lucke to them. Yea, to wishe, that they had no better state then we haue, on condition they had no worse, The harde-state of our neighbours Churches. and might alwayes haue as good: I thinke all our neighbours reformed Churches woulde bee soone entreated to say, AMEN. For in what hard case (God help them) good neighbours they be, their selues feele or feare it daily: and we heare of it, and cease not daily to pray for them, and, as we may, put to our helping hands vnto them.

[Page 88] The defa­cing of our state. Yea, our brethren their-selues (vpon better aduisement since) in their last supplication made to her gratious Maiestie: & to the high Court of Parliament, assembled 1587. pag. 8. do confesse it, saying: The Chur­ches of God rounde about vs, goe to wracke, in Fraunce, Belgia, and a great part of highe Dutche. I woulde Scotland had continued in her first loue, and that the hands of the builders were strengthened among you.

But in conclusion, neither their state or ours ( howsoeuer they stande) are bound to any perpetuall forme of all the orders and offices, of Eccle­siasticall regiment. Theirs may perhaps be better for them, their aflicted state standing as it doth: ours (all things in our established state of Go­uernment considered:) is best for vs. Away therefore (good brethren) with these disordered tearmes, O [...]r brethe­rens disor­dered spee­ [...]hes of our disordered state. This disordred state of ours: for they are not spéeches, beséeming thankfull and faithfull ministers to God, nor lo­uing and obedient subiects to our Prince and Superiours, so disorderlie cast forth on the state of Eccle. regiment. Which toucheth not onely Eccl. persons against whome perhaps our brethren will make no seruple of cō ­science, though their mouthes runne ouer, be they neuer so much their brethren, their Pastors, their betters, their superiours, their Bish, or Arch. to whome their selues peraduenture haue sworne Canonicam obedientiam. But these disordred speeches of theirs, touch the Magistrate, yea their Soueraigne very néere, and therefore they are not onely disordred, but daungerous speeches.

Neither ought our brethren to vpbraid our labours, vnto vs, that we [...] haue so long laboured with so little profit, to discourage the painefull laborer in the Lords vine-yard, T [...]e vp­braiding of our labors. and to make our handes weake, bee­cause our worke prospereth not so fast in our hands, as we would wishe it did: And yet it prospereth ( God be praysed) with more profit, then ei­ther we see, or our brethren like. But profit, or not profit, let vs still la­bour, and (thankes be to God) then we labour. All are not so idle loyte­rers, as afterwarde, our brethren complaine wee labour not [...]: and héere they finde fault with our labours. But labour we, or loyter we, they must still labour infinding fault: or else they should loyter, for lack of matter in discoursing. But howsoeuer they esteeme of our labours: the Laborer ( saith the Lord Luc. 10.) is worthie his rewarde. And as their-selues after­warde do note out of S. Paule, 1. Timoth. [...]. The elders that rule well, are wor­thie double honor, especially they which labour in the worde and doctrine. But they tell vs, that sentence maketh for their gouerning and not teaching elders: whether it doth so or no: we shall (God willing) at large examine, on their allegation of the same. but admitting it had included any such El­ders at that time: were their labours to be honoured that ruled well a­mong them, (and yet perhaps with as little profit)? And is the laborer in [Page 89] the word and doctrine to be despised, and his labour to be left, beecause we haue so long laboured with so little profit? But for all this discou­ragement of our brethren, let vs not be weary of wel-dooing, and com­mit the euent & profit to the Lorde, Our cōforte of our la­bours. and hearken rather to the Apostles ex­hortation, 1. Cor. 16. Therefore my beloued brethren, be ye stedfast, vnmou [...]able aboundant alwayes in the worke of the Lord: forasmuch as ye know, that your labor is not in vaine in the lorde. And this is our comfort, against this perswasion of our brethren, to leaue that state of ours, wherein we haue so long la­boured with so little profit. And yet we hope, we haue not all bene vnprofitable labourers: saue in respect of merite towarde God, wee confesse indeede (as Christ willeth vs to acknowledge our selues) That when wee haue done all we are able to do, we are but vnprofitable seruaunts: but not in all respectes vnprofitable. But if our so long labour haue had the lesse pro­fit, to our more gréefe: why do not our brethren, looke rather to the cause and hinderance of it? for perhaps, it is not so much of the laborer, The cause of our labours hinderance. as of the aduersaries that haue resisted vs. And haue we not aduersaries inow, of Sathan, of Antichriste, of his ministers, of the vnthankfull worlde, &c. but that our owne brethren wilbe euen almost as bitter against vs, as the worst? If therefore we haue so long laboured with so little profit: laie the fault where it is. Remoue the impediment, and then (God before) let vs say with Peter, Luc, 5.5. Though I haue laboured al night long, and haue taken no [...]hing: neu [...]rthelesse (Lord) at thy worde I will cast foorth the net. And then (no doubt) God will blesse our labours with more profit. And if our brethren when we becken to them, will come and helpe vs, we shall en­close such a multitude of Fishes, that our nettes shall bee full. And if our nettes breake, let vs mende them againe vniformely together. And then our state shall bee (if it bee not,) as beawtifull, and farre more beawtifull, ( I do not doubt it,) then anie of all our neighbours is.

But God blesse our neighbours, and make vs more thankfull, and lesse contentious and new-fangled then we be: and not onely more obedi­ent to our Ciuill Christian Magistrates, but more reuerent to the Eccle­siasticall gouernours, as the Apostle, Heb, 13.7. &c. giveth vs good counsell. Remember them which haue the ouer-sight of you, whiche haue decla­red vnto you the word [...] of God, whose faith followe, considering what hath beene the ende of their conuersation. Iesus Christ yesterdaye and to daye, the same also is for euer. Be not caried about, with diu [...]rse and straunge doctrines. And in the 17. verse, Obey them that haue the ouersight of you, for they watche for your soules, as they that must geue accounts, that they may do it with ioy, and not with griefe: for that is vnprofitable for you. And if there bee any disorder in doing this their duty, the fault being personall, the state is not to be defa­ced as disordred, but the faults redressed, and the state stand.

[Page 90] The Chri­stian prince repelled. But where the inferiours will presume to disobey, yea, to alter th [...] state of their Superiours, and to set vp them-selues: will not onely set out the Bishops and Archbishops, What would indeede make the state disor­dered. but the supreame authority of their Soueraigne too: If this should be suffered, the state would then indéed [...] become a most disordered state. And would worke a worse waie to Anti­christs pride and presumption, bringing in manie straunge kindes of false doctrine and confusion, and bréede a greater mysterie of iniquitie: while euery particuler congregation or seniorie among them, may thus, following the deuises of their owne braine, and pretending vpon a bar [...] fact, or order, or office, that they finde mentioned in the scriptures (though perhaps cleane other wise then they take it) inforce a warrant of Gods worde for them to followe: Yea, to thinke the onely experience of any of their neighbours successe, in imitation of the like, a sufficient perswa­sion for them, to leaue the state vnder which they liue, and con [...]melious­lie to reuile it, for a disordered state, and to preiudice and alter th [...] gouernement established, and to bring in a new Quaternion of Gouer­nours, by whome onely all matters maye bee directed, which are com­monly called Ecclesiasticall, without any other superior ouer [...]ight or go­uernment of Bish. or Arch. or any supreame authority of the Prince, t [...] be admitted among them.

Ha brethren, marke the mysterie of these deuises more aduisedlie, an [...] (I thinke) you will saye (at least-wise yee may saye,) that if our stat [...] were disordered: these things would not bring it into better order, but set it quite out of all order, and hazarde the cleane ouerthrow of the whole state. If the axe were gone, is this the remedy, to hurle the helue after it? howbeit our brethren héere, if the helue be not missing, but not orderlie set on, would cast both helue, and axe, and all away.

Now, least we might perhaps mistake our brethrens wordes, and so might be suspected to slaunder them, in saying they woulde cleane exclu [...] with the Bishops and Arch-bishops superiour authoritye, the supreame authority of the Christian Prince, ( and so of her Maiestie) from the dire­ction of all Ecclesiasticall matters: albeit their words aforesaid are plain [...] inough, yet this their resolute conclusion, in these wordes make it mani­feste.

Our brethe­rens conclu­sion cleane excludeth the Prince, and geueth the directiō of al Eccl. matters. to their 4. Tetrarck [...].There remaineth therefore, of these before rehearsed, onelie in the Church, these Ecclesiasticall offices instituted by God: namelie, Past­ors, Doctors, Gouernours, and Deacons: by which the church of God may, according to his worde, be directed in al matters, which are com­monly called Ecclesiasticall.

Here is the conclusion of this Tetrarchie: the Prince is not at all men­tioned, but cleane excluded from the direction of all Eccl. matters, and th [...] direction committed to these 4. onely, which particuler on [...]ly, debarre [...] [Page 91] both the Prince, and all other besides these 4. The Chri­stian prince excluded. Yet because among these 4. estates, this word Gouernours might carye such a generall sense, as that they might séeme not to exclude, but to include the Prince: to shew there­fore their meaning the plainer, that they intend not to include the Prince at al, in the Quadrant of these 4. kindes & estates of personages, vnder the ambiguous name of Gouernours, our brethren procéede, saying,

But while wee speake of Ecclesiasticall gouernement, it may bee thought of some, The learned dis­course. Page. 8. that we shoulde intreate first of the supreame autho­rity of Christian Princes: where upon it seemeth, that all the regiment of the church dependeth, which is such a myste to dazle the eyes of ig­norant persons, that they think all things in the Ecclesiast. state, ought to be disposed by that onely high authority and absolute power of the ciuill Magistrate.

In these wordes our brethren fore-séeing, Bridges. that some iuste o [...]fence might arise héereon, that professing a Learned discourse: The obie­ction why the treatise of the Chri­stian princes supremacy is not first cō ­sidered. and hauing delte thus farre in the Gouernement of Ecclesiasticall matters, and quartered the same into these 4. Tetrarks, Pastors, Doctors, Gouernours, and Dea­cons: and that all Ecclesi [...]sticall matters are to be directed only by these 4. the Christian Prince ( as, God bee praised, is amongst and ouer all vs her most excellent Maiestie) is not onely all this while not mentioned, but excluded: and so excluded, that whether her Maiesties estate be pre­iudiced héereby, is not so much as called first in question: and the Prin­ces authority being first debated and resolued vpon, then to haue procée­ded to the limiting and deciding of these Tetrarks, seuerall or conioyned Gouernement: Therefore our brethren thinke it nowe belike highe time to mitigate this offence, and to preuent this obiection. And indéede (brethren) it is a good obiection, and a point very necessary to haue beene firste, if not decided, yet treated on and better considered, or if not firste of all (albeit in good right, euen first of all in this matter of Ecclesiasticall gouernment) yet at least, or euer yee had procéeded thus farre in the trea­ting, determining, and giuing full and onelie authority, to all and euerie of these 4. Tetrarks.

For, yee can-not pleade ignorance, that yee thought not thereon be­fore nowe: That yee were called to a suddaine and tumultuous rea­soning, where the fynest witte, the beste memorye, the moste filed speeche, shall carrie awaye the truthe: at leaste, maruelouslye moue the vngrounded hearers: ( as in your Preface yee complayned.) For, Our brethe­ren foresa [...] the obiect. in their Pre­face. euen there, yee fore-sawe that it woulde bee obiected, and among o­ther thinges yee mentioned that obiection, saying: If anye shall obiect &c. that it shall bee preiudiciall to the estate of Gouernement esta­blished: And doe yee nowe vppon mature deliberation, hauing pro­fessed to set foorth, A Learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernement, [Page 92] and hauing entred into it, The Chri­stian prince repelled. laide your principles, and distributed all [...]he parts and persons that must be Gouernours of it: (as though ye be­thought your selues), come dropping in with this obiection, saying: But while we speake of Ecclesiasticall gouernement? As who woulde say: Good Lorde, howe haue wee forgotten our selues. Wee speake of Gouernment, and haue treated nothing of the Prince, which is the su­preme Governour. Wel, while it is in memory, and while we are spea­king of it, let vs say something to that obiection, that our selues partlye haue already moued, and it is most likelie wilbe by other obiected. let vs therefore aunswere before hand to that obiection, while we speake of Ecclesiasticall gouernment.

The tardie comming of this ob­iection. And it may bee, when yee wrote this, that yee thought on some such [...] like matter. Notwithstanding, this is but my coniecture, peraduentur [...] yea, peraduenture nay: but I take it, this is not the worst construction. Howbeit to say, while yee are speaking of it, and haue already giuen your resolute sentence on the matter, who haue the only gouernment it may be thought your obiection and your aunswere therevnto, com­meth verie tardie, to helpe the Princes title. Except ye will reuoke, or suspende your de [...]nitiue sentence, or except yee haue some further war­rant, from the experience of their example, that (they say) haue a cust­ome, first to giue iudgement, and put it in execution, and then to enquiure whether the party were guilty, yea or no. But Hyster [...]n, Proteron, for­mer or later, let it come in question, now a Gods name: that wee maye see, what is left to the Prince, and whether the Princes supreme goue [...] nement be any whit preiudiced, by this conclusion already passed, fo [...] the direction of all Ecclesiasticall matters, to bee made onely by these foresaid Tetrarcks.

But while we speake ( say they) of Ecclesiasticall Gouernement. N [...] sof [...]e (my good and learned discoursing brethren) since yee haue stay [...] to speake heereof, al this while: let mee craue pardon for a few worde [...] to stay your speech heereon a little while more. I pray you, what me [...] yee by this tearme heere, The Captiō of these wordes, Eccles. gover­ [...]ement. Ecclesiasticall gouernment? And a three lin [...] before, yee called it also, Ecclesiasticall regiment. For, there maie bee a great caption in these speeches, which our common aduersaries v [...] against vs, in all their writings and inuectiues, concerning the Princ [...] Supremacie. And therefore, you beeing her Maiesties true subiectes, [...] dissenting from the Papistes errours: I am lothe to haue you either [...] ­tangle your selues or vs, with their captious and sclaunderous tear [...], which not onely darken the matter, but touche her Maiesties honour, [...] sclaunder her Royall person, and right of her cheefest office very neare: [...] be it, you do it (I dare say it for you) of an ouershott zeale, and not of [...] malice, as they do.

[Page 93] They slaunder her Maiestie to take vpon her an Ecclesiasticall regi­ment or gouernment, as though she tooke vpon her, The Prin­ces supr. gouernmēt to be an Ecclesiasti­call person, or to exercise a function or office Ecclesiasticall: and to do the actions that appertaine to the Regiment Ecclesiasticall. The Papists selaunder of her Ma. This is a manifest sclaunder of her Maiestie, who neither exerciseth nor clay­meth anie such Ecclesiasticall Gouernement, nor the statute nameth or intendeth any [...] such Ecclesiasticall Gouernment of her Maiestie, but onelie that her Maiestie hath the Supreame Gouernement ouer all persons Ecclesiasticall: and is the Supreame Gouernour of them in all Ecclesiasticall causes, The princes supreame gouernmēt ouer al Ecc. persons, in al Ecclesi. matters. to ouersée and gouerne the right direction of al the persons and causes Ecclesiasticall. So that, where the direction of the consultation, and fynding out the causes, the execution and gouerne­ment of the actions, belongeth to the persons: the Supreame gouern­ment and direction of the causes to bée authorized, and the actions by the persons to be put in due execution, principally pertaine to her Maiestie.

And if ye thinke otherwise of her Maiesties, ( not Ecclesiasticall Go­uernment, but) supreame Gouernment, VVhat be­longeth to the Eccl. persons, and what to the Prince. in or ouer Ecclesiastical persons & causes: ye do greatly mistake it. And this may serue also for your third Tetrarke, whō ye cal Gouernours, to whome yee attribute amisse an Ec­clesiasticall Gouernement. Except ye intend by the word Eccl. anie man­ner of wayes perteyning to the Churche And thus, the widdowes of whome the Apostle speaketh 1. Tim. 5.9. Had Eccl. offices also, by which reckoning weomen with you, might be Ecclesiasticall persons, and haue an Eccl. gouernment in the church.

And so your Ecclesiasticall Gouernours, are notwith-standing popu­ler and plebeian persons, which commonly are called the laye people And by y ^e Scottish Churches, election of them and of the Deacons, where they saye: The Friday after, iudgement is taken, what persons are ele­cted for elders and Deacons to serue for that yeere: It shoulde séeme. they account them not properlie Ecclesiasticall persons, but rather lyke [...]ur Syde-men or Church-wardens. But howsoeuer yee confound these [...]earmes in these your Gouernours, it is not good confounding them in the Prince. And yee see that great captions, sclaunders, and cauils, may [...]rise vppon such great personages, by such intricate and d [...]btfull [...]earmes. Non bene definit, qui non bene diuidit. Speake distinolye and plaine, and then we shall better vnderstand your meaning, and either you or we shal quickly be driuen to a final conclusion, without al starting holes or eu [...]ons.

If yee meane by Ecclesiasticall gouernment, that her Maiestie ta­keth vppon her an Ecclesiasticall office, or to be an Ecclesiasticall person, and so execute the actions of the causes, that (as you say) are commonlie [Page 94] called Ecclesiasticall: ye incurre the common aduersaries slaunder of her Maiestie, although (I trust) vnwittingly, and therefore will not (I hope) vnwillingly reclaime your errour. If ye meane by Ecclesiasticall Go­uernement, her Maiesties Gouernement, in or ouer Ecclesiasticall matters or causes: we admit your sense: and now procéede on concerning the obiection and your aunswere.

Good reasō that al Pro­testants should think that the Princes supremacie should bee first treated on.It may be thought of some, that wee shoulde intreate first, of the Su­preame authority of Christian Princes.

And good reason to, (as I take it) if you will needes take vppon yo [...] (by what warrant or licence thereto, I doe not knowe) to intermeddl [...] in matters of state and Gouernement. Whether there were any [...] thought the contrarie (as I hope there are not many amongst vs Protest­ants) come you in, saying: It maye bee thought of some? as though you misliked, that anie shoulde so thinke; or thought not your selu [...], that manye amongest vs thought not so. But go to, some were per­haps of such a straunge opinion: and what (I praye you) is the o [...] ­nion?

That we should first intreate of the supreame authoritye of Christia [...] Princes.

Héere againe I craue yet another interruption for my learni [...] of so Learned discoursers. Doe yee héere afforde Christian Princes th [...] title of Supreame authority, Christian princes haue a supreame authority in Ecclesiast. matters. by way of supposition; As, whether they haue anie Supreame authority in Ecclesiastical matters, or no, let th [...] fall out in the Treatie, as it shall? or by way of assertion; acknowle [...] ging a Supreame authoritye in them? For, your woordes séeme rath [...] to carrie, that they haue a Supreame authoritie: Howbeit, not to be first treated vpon: and so likewise do your wordes in the next page, saying:

But of the Supreame authority of Christian Princes in Ecclesiasticall causes, how farre it extendeth by the worde of God, we shall haue bet­ter occasion to intreate heereafter, when we shall haue described the Ec­clesiasticall state.

So then, Christian Princes haue supreame authority in Ecclesiasticall causes, by your own assertion. But, how now doth this agrée with your former conclusion? There remaineth therefore of these before rehearsed onlie in the Church these Ecclesiasticall offices, instituted of GOD: namely, Pastors, Doctors, Gouernours, and Deacons: By which the Church of God may, according to his worde bee directed, in all mat­ters which are commonly called Ecclesiasticall. If Christian Princes haue supreame gouernment in Ecclesiasticall causes: howe are all Eccle­siasticall matters, or causes directed onelye by these Tetrarcks.

Shall the Prince be one of these fowre, and bee included in the compa [...] of the Gouernours? No, these gouernours are such Elders as are cho­sen [Page 95] out of the people. How shall we reconcile these sayings then? well inough, (say they). For, these 4. are the onely Ecclesiasticall officers: now we name not the Christian Prince an Ecclesiasticall officer, but the supreame gouernour.

This is very well reconciled indéede, for that point: saue that it fal­leth out hardlie in an other, that still the Lay people are made persons Ecclesiasticall. But what aunswereth this the pointe in hande? For, Difference betweene the Prince and his gov. and the 4. Tetrarcks. if the Christian Princes haue the supreame gouernment in Ecclesiasticall matters or causes: then, none of all these fowre officers or offices, ( call them Ecclesiasticall or what yee will,) neither diuisim, nor coniunctim, haue the onelie direction of all Ecclesiasticall matters or causes. For, the Christian Princes haue héere some direction; Nay, the chiefe and su­preame direction in them. Except yee finde out yet, some other quirke betwéene matters and causes: or, betweene directing and gouerning. But, as heere, Ecclesiasticall matters, and Ecclesiasticall causes, are ta­ken indifferentlie: so, for directing and gouerning, Directing, & gou [...]r­ning. I goe plainelye and simply to worke. He that dir [...]cteth, he gouerneth, and he that gouerneth he directeth.

The Christian Prince therefore, beeing (as our brethren graunt) the su­preame gouernour in Ecclesiasticall causes, is also the supreame director in Ecclesiasticall matters.

But if now they stoppe on this point, and will distinguish between direction and gouernment: and they ( that is to saie) these 4. officers, will direct all the matters, and the Prince must gouerne them, accor­ding onlie, to their direction: who a [...]e indéed the Gouernours then? The Prince or they; when he must gouerne, ( nay, say rather; when hee muste obey) according to their direction? For, they vnderstande by dire­cting, What our brethren meane by directing. not their counseling, or shewing their iudgemente and aduise: and such direction, (we freelie graunt) belongeth vnto them. But by directing, they meane, setting downe order, prescribing, com­maunding, decréeing, and determinining: and what is this else, but go­uerning? Who hath now the more supreme gouernment in Ecclesiasti­call matters, the Prince? or these fowre estates? But the Prince ( by their owne confessions) is the supreame gouernour in Ecclesiastical mat­ters, and not they: except our brethren giue the prince this title, The Prince called supr. gover. in a bare title. onelye for a shew, and kéepe the matters to them-selues. For, so the Pope cal­leth the Emperour, Emperour of Roome, and yet yet can hee haue no more roome in Rome, then it pleaseth the Pope to permit vnto him, who indeede hath all the Empire and gouernment of Rome. Now if these our learned discoursing brethren graunt christian princes this title, to be the supreame gouernour in Ecclesi. matters, in such a fashion: [Page 96] that is a planie mockerie before God and man. N [...]n est bonum ludere c [...] sanctis.

But if they trulie acknowledge the Christian Prince to beare the chi [...] stroake among them, in directing, prescribing, decréeing, confirming, for­bidding, and commaunding· Ecclesiasticall matters: then is the Prince indéede, the supreame gouernour in them, and not they. But then, stoope gallant; If the prince be indeed the supreme Gouernour then must our brethrē submitte them-selues to the gouernement established. All these iiij. estates, which (as they said before) muste beare such sway, that all Ecclesiasticall matters, maie be directed by them, and by them onlie, are topsie turnie ouertourned. Wet may the Christian Prince by them, ( though not by them onely) bee directed by waye of counsell and information: but when all is done, hee is still the Supreame Gouernour, and all they muste bee chiefly directed and go­uerned by the Christian Prince: in all such Ecclesiasticall matters, and causes, as are amongst them to be established.

Sith therefore our Learned discoursers haue graunted this, w [...] yeelde they not without further discoursing on the matter, to h [...] Maiesties supreame gouernement, that hath confirmed by her Su­preame authoritye, the decision of these Ecclesiasticall causes, and con­trouersies long agoe, and maintayneth the Ecclesiasticall gouernement now established?

And if now Christian Princes haue supreame authority in Ecclesiasti­call causes: while these our Learned brethren discoursers take on them, not to speake onelie, but to set downe directions of Ecclesiastical gouer­nement: maye not some thinke, ( nay maye not moste men thinke) that they shoulde treate firste of th [...] Supreame authoritye of Christian Princes? If they haue the firste degree in dignity, whye may they not haue the firste place in this Treatise? Howbeit, because this woor [...] Supreame, The worde Supreame. may bee taken as-well for the last in order, though y ^e first in dignitie, as the Princes giue their voyces and Royall assent last of all [...] and when euery bodie hath saide, their voice strykes deade or quickens [...] the matter. If our brethren héere meane, to reserue the Treatie of the Christian Princes Supreame authority, to y ^e purpose, & so to acknowled [...] them to bee the supreame gouernours: then a Gods name, procéede on, Let them say, as doe the Gentlemen-vshers before Princes, On afor [...] my Lordes. Let all these fowre estates take their places before, because that these our Learned discoursers so assigne them. We will not great­ly stryue with them about the roome, where they please to place Christ [...] ­an Princes, firste or laste, or middlemoste, if Christian Princes ma [...] entirely retaine their supreame authority in Ecclesiasticall causes.

Neuerthelesse, there is no reason to the contrary, but it may be thought of some, or of moste, if not of these Learned discoursers, that they shoul [...] [Page 97] haue treated first on the Supreame authoritie of Christian Princes: The Prin­cessupreme gov. sclan. that the reader might first haue knowen, what Gouernement perteyneth to them, and howe farre it extendeth by the worde of God, that haue the Supreame authoritie of Eccl. causes: and then to haue treated on those in their orders, dignities, and places, that are vnder them, and séene like­wise the differences of their inferiour Gouernements. And so should the reader of these controuersies, haue eastly & plainely perceaued, whether any of their inferior Gouernments & authorities had incroached on the Christian Princes Supreame gouernment & authoritie, yea or no. The iniurie offered to the Prince in the last place. This (mee thinketh) had béene the better, the simpler, and more direct Me­thode: then first to bring in all the other inferiour persons, and to assigne this and that Gouernement vnto euerie of them, and when all haue had their places offices and gouernementes assigned to them: then, to come to the Christian Princes, and tell them: this is the place and office of Supreame Gouernement, left for you. Your Maiesties come late, these 4. are your Seniours, ye are but their punies: and therefore be con­tent, there is no remedie, you must take that which by them is not fore­stalled, & howe farre your Supreame authoritie extendeth, we shall haue better occasion to entreate hereafter, when we haue described the Eccl. state. Me thinketh, that Christian Princes may take griefe hereat, yea, e­uerie indifferent Reader may suspect, that Christian Princes might haue great wrong offered them by this dealing.

But, whether our brethren, Discoursers, meane thus, or no: by bringing in first all the inferiour persons, and taking vp before hande (ere the Prin­ces be so much as mentioned) the direction of all Eccles. matters to bee directed onely by them, and bid the Princes be content, they shall haue the Supreame place of authoritie, that is, the last place (as they perhaps meane it) and the Princes vnderstande it for the chiefest place: let them now go on, and tell their owne tale, and shewe their reasons for thus pla­cing of the Christian Princes.

Where-uppon it seemeth, that all the regiment of the Churche de­pendeth.

Where-upon? And where-upon ( I pray you brethren) speake you this? eyther vpon the giuing to Christian Princes the first treatise? Our breth. captious sclaunder of the Princes supreame gouermēt. or vp­on the Supreame authoritie of Christian Princes? The supreame autho­ritie you haue graunted. But the first place of the treatie, yee will not graunt. Where-upon, it may be taken, that this your (where-upon) see­meth as if ye sayde: If we should first intreate of the Supreame authori­tie of Christian Princes: then it might seeme, that all the regiment of the Church dependeth on them. But construe your owne words where­vpon ye please, eyther vpon the one sense or the other. Here is nothing yet alleaged, but that onely it seemeth that all the regiment of the Church [Page 98] dependeth on it. But if it be vnderstoode for the onely first place of the treatie: it can not so much as seeme to depende all vppon the first trea­ting of the same. If it be vnderstoode of the Christian Princes supreame gouernement, in Ecclesiasticall causes, which you haue graunted and we take holde thereon, and that some what yet in time, least all be cleane gi­uen from them, if all be not giuen away alreadie, but yet will wee take as good holdfast as we can, for the Princes right, that Christian Princes haue supreame authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes: which once beeing graunted: then, whether yee treate there-upon first or last: whatsoeuer would seeme to fall out, will seeme so still. But what is this that would seeme to fall out hereupon?

That all the regiment of the Church, dependeth on the Christian Prin­ces supreame authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes. A sclaunde­roussurmise of the Chri­stian Prince.

Would this seeme, if the Prince had the first place? Doeth it seeme that all the regiment of the Church, dependeth on the Pastor? And yet here you assigne the Pastour the first place. Though afterwarde vppon further aduisement, you put him backe, and make him come downe with shame, and take the lower roome, giuing the first place to the Do­ctor, notwithstanding your selues doe thus heere for a while exalt the Pastour. But it seemeth, ye haue a greater Iealousie of the Christi­an Prince, then of anie of all these foure Tetrarkes. For howsoeuer y [...] set them one before or after another, the Christian Prince must come behind them all, for feare it might seeme that the regiment of the Church dependeth thereon.

But shall the Christian Princes be debarred of the right of their place, in the treatie of their authoritie, because it seemeth that there-upon the Regiment of the Church dependeth? It seemeth, that these wordes are suspitiouslie cast foorth, as though her Maiestie would haue all the Eccle­siasticall functions, and all their ministerie of the worde and sacraments, and all the mysticall state of Christes militant Church in her Maiesties Dominions, to depende on her Maiesties supreame authoritie in Ecclesi­asticall matters. It seemetht, his is not verie good dealing, to burthen her Maiestie with suspition of such thinges. But we will suspende our iudg [...] ­ment, for all this that seemeth to depende: for if wee shoulde not, but streight condemne a thing, because it seemeth this or that: what if this dealing of our brethren seemed harde to the Christian Prince? What if it seemed to her Maiestie, that the bringing in of all these foure Estates before her Maiestie, and the giuing vnto them onely, the direction of all Ecclesiasticall matters, might be greatly preiudiciall to the state of go­uernement established; to make a mutenie in the common-weale, to s [...] vs all together by the eares; to make an infinite number of factions and alterations; yea, to take from her Maiestie the best part of her supreame [Page 99] authoritie; and to bréed many mo mischiefes and inconueniences, then she, or you, or we, or any yet sawe?

If (I say) it should seeme so vnto her Maiestie, and to a great num­ber besides, which thinke themselues as sounde Protestantes, and as good subiects as you either would seeme to be, or are: would ye not straight wayes aunswere? What though it seemeth so: yet, it is not so: it is but onely your surmise, and though it seemeth so to you: Things not to be measu­red by see­ming. yet it seemeth not so to vs ( ye will say) nor to many other. But sure it is not so, what­soeuer it seemeth vnto anie.

If nowe we replie: well, yet it seemeth not so of nothing. There can be no smoake, where there is no fire: and if it be not smoake indéede, yet since it seemeth to be smoak, it is not amisse to feare fire, We must abstaine from all appearaunce of evill. 1. Thes. 5. Would ye be content, to haue the matter ouerruled thus, against your Learned discourse for this Te­trarchie, because these daungers might so seeme to insue, yea, to depende there-upon? And I pray you brethren, what stronger reason call ye this? It may be thought of some, that we should first intreate, of the supreame authoritie of Christian Princes: whereupon it seemeth, that all the regi­ment of the Church dependeth.

Yea, but you will say: if it seemeth so, then, it commeth not of nothing. There is no smoake where there is no fire, We must abstaine from all appea­rance of euill. Who saide this? Forsooth (brethren) that did euen I: and hardily returne mine owne wordes to mine owne selfe, Lege Talionis. For ye sée I am bolde with you (brethren) in so doing. Some regi­ment of the Church de­pendeth on the Princes supream gouernement. Well then (will you say) it seemeth that all the Regiment of the Churche, dependeth on the supreame authoritie of the Christian Prince in Ecclesiasticall causes: and this seeming, commeth not on nothing. No verely, doth it not. For, to set aside your partiall suspition, and goe to the matter it selfe. The Christian Prince hauing supreame authoritie in Ecclesiast. causes: doeth no Regiment of the Churche at all, though not all the Regiment of the Church depende thereon?

Tush, this is a thing, which is such a myste ( say you) to dazell the eyes of the ignorant persons, that they thinke all thinges in the Eccles. state, ought to be disposed by that onely high authoritie and absolute power of the ciuill Magistrate.

A ha (brethren) I thought it would prooue somewhat. It seemed ( as the saying is) either a foxe or a fearne brake. I tooke it for smoake, and it was a myste. So that I myst my marke. And yet till it came, it ree­ked like a smoake. And a myste will not onely dazell the eyes, but so dar­ken the obiect, that wee cannot discerne the trueth, till the myste bée dissipated, and then, (if we haue good eyes) we shall sée all thinges as they are.

[Page 100] But what is this, which is such a myste, forsooth, that all the regi­ment of the Church dependeth on the authoritie of Christian Princes?

A sclande­rous myste. This is a foule, thicke, stincking, sclannderous, darke myste indéede.

Whence riseth this myste? Doe we raise anie such spéeches on the Prince? Doth the statute yéelde anie such authoritie to the prince? Doeth her Maiestie claime, or take vpon her anie such authoritie? I heare of none but of the common aduersaries, ( and you nowe which ar [...] our brethren,) that cast foorth anie such spéeches. Al-be-it, I ioyne not you and them in like condition. For, they most malitiously doe anowe and blase it: you onely say it seemeth: but whether to them, or to the people, or to your selues it seemeth: that you tell vs not. But it seemeth, ye will exempt your selues, and I am glad thereof: for I would not haue it, that you, who are our brethren in Iesu Christe, and her Maiesties tru [...] meaning subiectes, as we are, should haue either your eyes dazeled, or the verie paper (whereon you write) to be stayned, with the supition, or but with seeming to suspect, such false, foggie, and infectiue mystes a [...] those are.

If ye be Iealouse of them, to driue this myste away, it is well done: so that in this Iealousie to driue away the myste, ye driue not away with­all our Mistresses Supreame authoritie: It is no reason her Maiestie should loose her cleare right, vnder pretence that a myste dazeleth the eyes of ignorant persons.

The eyes of the ignorant dazeled with this myste. But if they be ignorant, then it is for that they knowe not the trueth hereof: and then is the truth of the matter cleane contrarie. And al­though the ignorant be deceaued: yet they that be not ignorant, hi [...] not deceaued. And can not the ignoraunt bée taught the trueth by them that are not ignoraunt? The ignoraunt persons were deceaued in ma­nie moe thinges, of which ignorant persons then, manie nowe (thankes be to God) doe knowe the trueth, except such as loue mystes and darke­nesse more then light.

But let not vs suppresse the trueth, for feare of what may seeme to ig­norant persons For to them truthe seemes falshoode; and all that we say both of vs, may seeme starke lyes. But it lyeth vs vppon so much the ra­ther, to tell them the truthe: and then if they will be ignorant, let them be ignorant still. But what is the point, wherein by this myste the eyes of the ignorant persons are thus dazeled? That all thinges in the Ec­clesiasticall state, ought to be disposed by the only high authoritie & ab­solute power of the Christian Magistrate. This indéede is a daungerous errour of ignorant persons. But if any be so ignorant: would this error be confirmed in them, if the authoritie & power of the Christian Princes were first treated vpon, and throughly viewed? And not rather, if there be any such as holde that opinion (as by our brethrens spéeches it seemeth [Page 101] sh [...]re should h [...] [...]nie) I take it were the best waye which could be ta­ken, that this myste, were first cleared, and the Treatie of the Christi­an Princes first treated vppon: least, eyther the Princes should take anie such onely high authoritie and absolute power vppon them, or that the people should so grossely and erroniously conceaue anie such matter of thē. This is my opinion in such cases. And I woulde wish you (brethren) to take héede, howe in these your discourses, The casting foorth of such false suspitions is not wel done. ( let them carie what name of learning soeuer ye wil) sith that the people are taught no such matter, sith that her Maiestie taketh no such absolute power vppon her, but (as be­commeth a good Christian Prince,) that, which of right pertaineth to her Maiesties royall office, and most godly, with all humilitie, patience and [...]uldenes, tempereth the Iustice of the same: you abuse not too much her Maiesties clemencie, that deserueth no such sclaunders nor suspitions at your h [...]ndes.

Wh [...]e put you such surmises in the peoples heads, if they were igno­rant, to deceaue them worse? For this is the way, to make the people ey­ther become Atheistes, as only and absolutely to depende on the Prince in all matters and causes Ecclesiasticall: or to grudge against her Maie­stie, as taking on her such an onely highe authoritie and absolute power to dispose all thinges in the state Ecclesiasticall. What could her open professed enemies haue sayde worse? Saue that they no lesse impudent­ly then falsely, like arrant Traytors, doe not shame to affirme it: and should you (brethren) come after those shamelesse children of Beliall, and say: But while we speake of Ecclesiasticall gouernment, it may be thought of some, that we should intreate first of the Supreame authori­tie of Christian Princes: where-upon it seemeth, that all the regiment of the Church dependeth: which is such a myste to dazell the eyes of ig­norant persons, that they thinke all thinges in the Eccles. state ought to be disposed, by the onely high authoritie and absolute power of the ciuill Magistrate? What suspicious spéeches, and byous glaunces, vnder the name of some, and of it seemeth. and of they thinke, are heere cast [...]oorth? and all this thinking and seeming to some, is turned to the peo­ple, and to ignorant persons: they, poore soules, must beare the fault of all. What is raysing of mystes, dazeling of eyes, walking in cloudes: yea, da [...]sing naked in a net, and when all the worlde looketh on, to thinke no [...] séeth vs, if this be not? And whie is the Soueraigne Prince called hereby no better terme, then the ciuill Magistrate: who before, was ac­knowledged in more reuerent manner, to be the Christian Prince, The terme of ciuil Ma­gistrate. and to haue also Supreame authoritie? What? and did you likewise meane. here­bie to graunt vnto Christian Princes, that all the regiment of the Church dependeth on their Supreame authoritie, and that all thinges in the Ec­clesiasticall state ought to be disposed by that onely high authoritie and [Page 102] absolute power of the ciuill Magistrate? What? & do ye h [...]e grant the [...] all this? Or graunt them some thing? or denie them all this, and gra [...]nt them nothing, nor any regiment, nor anie disposing at all? Yee saye, the ignorant persons, How farre our breth. denie or graunt this sclaunder. thought thus and thus: and would you for all that, giue so much vnto Christian Princes, as the Supream [...] authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes? Did not you feare also, least yee should rays [...] a myste to dazell the eyes of ignorant persons? And what did yo [...] meane, when you gaue the direction of all Ecclesiasticall matters to your foure estates onely in the Church? And among other termes, her [...] speaking of the Christian Princes, ye call their estate the onely high [...] authoritie, and absolute power: but it sufficeth vs, (if ye will abide by your graunt,) that Christian Princes haue supreame authoritie in Ecclesi­asticall causes, as for the termes, onely and absolute, which are due on­lie vnto Christ; in talking of anie others vsurpation of them, we kno [...] no Christian Princes that doth vsurpe them. It is manifest, that our most gratious Soueraigne (the mirrour of all Christian Princes of this age) claimeth or vsurpeth, Her Ma. claimeth no such abso­lute power. no such onely highe authoritie or absolute power, whereby all thinges in the Ecclesiasticall state ought to be disposed.

Bestowe the vsurpation of these termes on the Pope, or of some tyrant: or looke your selues (brethren) better vnto it. For, you giue thrée thing [...] here to your foure Tetrarkes. First, direction: and then, of all Ecclesi [...] ­sticall matters: and that, onely to these foure in the Church. And wer [...] ye not afraide, least, the fourth terme, that is to saye, absolute power, would followe in a myste, to dazel the eyes of ignorant persons? Well, if after absolute, Absolon follow not also, it is the better.

But let vs now with-drawe our selues out of these mystes, and com [...] to clearer coasts, concerning some particuler pointes, what is here grau [...] ­ted, or denied to the Christian Princes by these our Learned discoursing brethren

Others there be, with more colour of reason, that referre only indif­ferent matters to the disposition of Princes: The learned dis­course. Page. 8. but in determining indiffe­rent matters, they shewe themselues not to be indifferent Iudges. For, whatsoeuer it shall please the ciuill Magistrate or themselues to call or count indifferent, it must be so holden of all men, without any further inquirie. But of the Supreame authoritie of Christian Princes in Eccles. causes, how farre it extendeth by the worde of God, we shall haue better occasion to intreate hereafter, when we haue described the eccl. state.

When vnder the name and blame of ignorant persons, these Learned discoursers haue answered (as they thinke) sufficiently; Bridges. that they haue not first treated on the Christian Princes estate, for feare, least in giuing th [...] Prince place, before they had inuested in full seazure and possession, these foure Tetrarks in their offices assigned alreadie vnto them, the Christian [Page 103] Prince might be thought to haue gotten too great aduauntage, The Prin­ces auth. in indifferent matters. as hauing his share set [...]ut before theirs: and therefore, hee is put backe, till all these foure be serued: vnder pretence, that if the Prince were serued first: ignorant persons would thinke, that al the other had their shares frō him, and all depended on him, and that his power might be thought ab­solute, and that this were a myste to dazell the eies of ignorant persons, which might sound to the Princes great reproch. Least, now the Christian Prince, or any other his wel-willers, should espie, that this indéede, were but a myste to dazell the Princes owne eyes, that pretending to staye him, for feare he might séeme to haue too much, they might leaue him no authoritie at all, in the directing and disposing those matters, wherein his Supreame authoritie most of all consisteth, to wit, (be they politike, morall, or Ecclesiasticall thinges) in matters indifferent: least they might thus séeme to spoyle the Prince of all: they come nowe to answere those men, that yet would leaue to the Christian Prince a Supreame authoritie in disposing of these indifferent matters.

Others ( say they) there be, with more colour of reason, Indifferent matters re­ferred to the Princes dis­position. that referre only indifferent matters to the disposition of Princes.

Who those others are, they doe not name: but we may well perceaue, that these our brethren discoursers fauour not greatly those mens opini­on, that the Christian Princes should haue anie disposing of indifferent matters. Notwithstanding, because they dare not in plaine wordes denie it: it is worth the sight, to sée howe pretyly they fetch it about, in the an­swering to the opinion of those others.

And first, they clawe these others, how-beit with a harde curricombe, that they at least haue more colour of reason, yet not reason, but colour of reason: Which rough or gentle yéelding somewhat to them, at least of a colour, must serue for a reasonable colour, to seeme to giue them some­thing, though (saue a colour) nothing: both to bereaue these others of their reason, & the Chr. Princes of all their Supreame auth. in indifferent mat­ters. And indéede, as they tell their tale, they driue it to as little reason, as they can, for in saying: they referre onely indifferent matters to the dis­position of Princes: they plainely insinuate, that these others should say, that the Princes are not onely the chiefe or Supreame, but also, the only disposers of indifferent matters: and this also our brethren affirme of indifferent matters indefinitely; as though, not some, but all indifferent matters, were in the onely disposition of Princes, at their pleasure.

Nowe, although that in some thinges, which of their nature are in­different, all lawes, of God and man, haue had no small regarde, of those that are called Principum placita, Princes coū sellers to giue aduise. drawing néere to the kinde of her Maiesties Proclamations: yet what good Prince hath euer reigned, (were he neuer so wise,) euen Salomon himselfe, but he had his counsell? [Page 104] Not to giue authoritie and life to his decrées in such indifferent matter [...], which lieth (I graunt) onelie in the Princes disposition: but to gi [...]e [...] ­uise and counsell vpon waightie and mature deliberation, what w [...]re be [...] in all respectes, according to the Analogie of Gods worde, the groundes and rule of reason, and all other thinges to be considered, for the aduanc [...] ­ment of Gods glorie, the establishment of the Princes estate, and the b [...] ­nefite of the common-weale. But howsoeuer anie other Princes haue [...] ­bused their authoritie, and followed their owne disposition, rather th [...]n reason in these matters: or their owne reason according to Machiauelle [...] rule, rather then the aduice or consents of their wise and goodly Counsel [...] shall we so déeme rashly, and beyonde our dutie, of her Ma. our most gra­tious Soueraigne, or of any other godly Christian Princes? Well then▪ what say our brethren these Learned discoursers here-unto, hauing mo­ued this case? The Princes authoritie in disposing indifferent matters. For, it is at this day a great question, & toucheth the matter to the quicke, what the Christian Princes authoritie is, in the dispositiō of indifferent matters? Let vs now listen to their answer & determination in this point. Wherby we shall sée, what they leaue to the Christian Prince, all or somewhat, Our brethe­rens motion of this point ought or nought, in the disposing of these things.

Their motion is this:

Others there be, with more coulour of reason, that referre only in­different matters to the disposition of Princes.

Our breth. answere. Their answer is this:

But in determining indifferent matters, they shewe themselues not to be indifferent Iudges.

The reasons of their an­swere. This answere they confirme with this reason:

For, whatsoeuer it shall please the ciuill Magistrate or themselues to call or count indifferent, it must be so holden of all men, whithout any further inquirie.

The brea­king off the further an­swere till hereafter. And with this answere they breake off the matter, saying:

But of the supreame authoritie of Christian Princes in Eccles. causes, howe farre it extendeth by the word of God: we shal haue better occasi­on to intreate here-after, when we haue described the Eccl. state.

And is this al then, that we shal looke for here, concerning this so gre [...] and important matter? Who mooued here this point now? Indéede it w [...] looked for before. But why at the length was it nowe mooued, and shall not nowe be throughlie answered, but thus be posted off, till better oc­casion here-after? Heere was a verie good occasion, and mooued by your selues, and the matter waightie and necessarie: and who would not nowe euen haue saide to him selfe, although some great busines or frien [...] had called him away? Nay, soft, I will stay a while, and here these o [...] brethrens Learned discourse and answere, in prouing and determining of this great point: & then be gone. But we may now be gone when we li [...]t, [Page 105] we haue our answer héere alre [...]die, such an one as it is: and till better occasion heereafter, we must be content with this. Well, and there be no remedie, then content: we will liue in hope.

But then (Brethren) forget not the matter quite and [...]leane, when that better occasion hereafter commeth. But it is an old saying, Omne promissum est aut debitum aut dubium. I doubt w [...] must take this answer for all, in this Learned Discourse. For, heereafter, when our brethren at the end of all this their Learned Discourse, take their better occasion ( as they thinke) to treate more largelée of the supreame authoritie of Christian Princes in ecclesiasticall causes, how farre it ex [...]endeth by the worde of God: there is, faire and well, better and worse, more and lesse, ne gry quidem, not so much as one word mentioned of indifferent matters. And is this indifferent dealing in such a matter? But since it is so, least we should go emptie awaye, we muste take this or none for an answer. The obiection propounded by themselues, was this:

Others there be with more coulour of reason, that referre onelie indifferent matters to the disposition of Princes.

To this they answer. But in determining indifferent matters, they shew them-selues not to be indifferent iudges.

This answere beginning with a But, is giuen rhetoricallie Ex abrupto. The weigh­ing of our brethrens answere. Vttering (as it were, for quicker [...]spatch, in a Learned Discourse,) the one halfe, or parte of the answere, by which they would haue vs to gather their whole minde: as who should saye: it is t [...]ue which these others affirme, How far our bretheren graūt to the Princes dis­posing in­different matters. that referre onlie indifferent matters to the disposition of Prin­ces: all this we gladlie graunt and yéeld vnto. But in determining indif­ferent matters, they shewe themselues no [...] to be indifferent iudges.

Is not this (brethren) the meaning of your answere? For I would be loath wittinglie to misconster you. Howbeit, to all that shall be indiffe­rent iudges of vs bothe, I hope, they will say, I haue more then coulour of reason, thus to conster your word [...]. You haue mooued héere a waightie obiection: Your full, plaine, and resolute answere is expected. If ye saye nothing at all vnto it: either it might be thought, that ye reiected it, as a matter not worthie to be answered: (and whye then did ye mooue it?) Or [...]lse, saying nothing therevnto: the old rule may hap to fasten on you: Qui tacet, videtur cons [...]ntire: He that holdeth his peace, dooth seeme to con­sent. Notwithstanding, that is but seeming, which though it inforce not, yet still it carieth more then coulour of Reason, that by all probabilitie, the partie yéeldeth. And it is commonlie, and in some cases necessarilie ta­ken, pro confess [...], as a cléere graunt. But if a man of purpose, will take vpon him to [...]nswere to that, which is obiected either by others or by himselfe, and answere onelie by waye of exception, as you héere expresselie beginne with this exception, But: what can that intend, but that ye fréelie graunt, [Page 106] to all the obiection, so farre foorth as is not expre [...]ed nor cont [...]ined, wi [...] ­in the compasse of your exception? And this goeth beyond your mist of videtur, it seemeth: and I plainelie take it for a plaine graunt.

Our bre­thren graūt it, and yet finde faulte with them that graūt it Now if ye graunte to the opinion of these, whom ye call others, that referre onelie indifferent matters to the disposition of Princes: why do ye so minceinglie, or rather odiouslie saye of them: they doo it with more coulour of reason, as though they had no reason, but a coulour of rea­son for it? And what reason or coulour of reason haue you to propose i [...], and graunt it, and yet to finde fault with them that doo auouche it▪ If y [...] say, ye finde faulte with the abuse of it: that is nothing to the obiection, which was, whether onelie indifferent matters were to be referred to the Princes disposition. But ( say you) in determining indifferent matter [...] they shew themselues not to be indifferent iudges. So that, if they shew­ed themselues to be indifferent iudges, in determining indifferent mat­ters: then they did well, and ye will allow Christian P [...]inces to haue au­thoritie, in the disposition of indifferent matters.

Who are these now, that in determining indifferent matters, shew themselues not be indifferent iudges? Who are these not indifferent iudges. If yée meane those others, with their coulour of reason: with what coulour of reason referre ye this to them, who (as ye saye) referre onelie indifferent matters to the dispositi­on of Princes? And how then are they become such determiners and iud­ges of indifferent matters, referring them onelie to the Princes disposi­tion? What iudgement or determination is that in these others, that hath no disposition of the matters, whereon they should iudge and de­termine, but referreth the disposition to the Prince? And what disposi­tion is that of the Prince, if these others and not the prince, be the iud­ges and determiners of it? If ye say these others finde out onelie, what be indifferent matters, and the Prince onelie dooth dispose them, how they shall-be vsed, when by these others they are determined and iudged to be indifferent: Mistaking indifferent for not in­different. where is then the faulte? In mistaking matters not indifferent, for indifferent: and indifferent, for not indifferent: and so in determining indifferent matters, they shew themselues not to be in­different iudges. And who doo thus? these others, that referre onelie in­different matters to the disposition of Princes. The Princes right heere­by not pre­iudiced. What is this to the Princes right, in the disposition of indifferent matters? The right of the Prince héerein, may remaine intier, for all this abuse of others. So that (I hope) we shall sooner agrée, then we were aware on. For, so that Christia [...] Princes may haue their right inuiolablie reserued: I dare hazzard thus farre of all good Christian Princes, and will presume (by hir Maiesties leaue) to giue warrant for our most gracious Soueraigne, that shée wi [...] not abuse hir authoritie, nor hath doone: nor (if any others haue abuse [...] hir authoritie héerein, committed by hir Maiestie vnto them) woul [...] [Page 107] [...]ainteyne them, or allowe thereof. The Prince slandered.

But all this will not serue. For, vnder pretence of this abuse, though doone by others, which other [...] notwithstanding are not named: not onlie they (whosoeuer they be) in a [...]thoritie vnder her: but also her Maiestie her selfe is most vnworthilie defaced, and her right héerein, Her maiest. right and dooings vnworthilie defaced. which cannot be denied, but for a shew is graunted vnto, (albeit not so neither in ex­presse wordes, but in necessitie of consequence is euicted from them) is héere cleane vndermined, and with a reproch [...]full contumelie ouerturned. Pretending not onelie that the Prince disposeth all these things amisse, according to the wrong determining of others: but that the Prince ioy­neth with these others, in the wrong determining and iudging of these matters. And that either the Prince and they, or els the Prince or they, rule all at their owne pleasure, disposing of indifferent matters for not indifferent: and of not indifferent, for indifferent: and so, in de­termining indifferent matters, shewe themselues not to be indifferent iudges.

For, whatsoeuer it shall please the ciuill magistrate, or themselues, to call or count indifferent, it must be so holden of all men, without a­nie further inquirie.

What doo they (brethren)? saye me that againe: doo they deale thus with euerie matter whatsoeuer? And at their owne pleasure, whatsoe­uer it shall please them? And haue they no better proofe, then their bare calling or coūting it to be indifferent? is that all the reason they alledge? And would they héerevpon onelie, haue it holden for such a maximie, that, not onelie it may, but it must be so holden, and that, of all men: and that, without anie further, so much as, inquirie? This is a verie strange dea­ling: this is an heynous matter indéed. If the matter go thus: alas poore men, I cannot greatlie blame you, if ye mislike such euill dealing, and thought them not to be indifferent iudges.

But (I beséeche you brethren) who are they that vse such dealing? The ciuill magistrate, or themselues. What? The ciuill magistrate? God forbid. Take héed what ye say, yea, vnsaye that againe. No, no, we say (you will say) the ciuill magistrate. And will ye so indeed? Whome then meane ye by the ciuill Magistrate? For, The ciuill magistrate. all our question was about Princes, and those not Heathen, but Christian Princes And we (will you saye) by the ciuill magistrate, doo meane also the Christian Prince. Well then (brethren) I nowe perceiue your meaning. Neither doo I denie, but that the terme (ciuill magistrate) is a fit and reuerend terme, as time and place serueth. Howbeit, héere treating of the supreme au­thoritie of Christian Princes, to come in (as before in a myst ye did, and nowe againe, and that openlie) with a terme, that maye as well fitte the great Turke, or anye Heathen, Infidell, prophane, [Page 108] or wicked Prince, as a Christian Prince: and speaking of not indifferent iudges, to call héere the Christian Prince, onlie and in generall, the Ciuill magistrate, as though it were some Ciuilian, or iudge in the Ciuill lawe, or some other inferior Magistrate, vnder the Prince: Quàm contemptim? quàm inciuile?

But would God, this were the greatest faulte in this discourse, to stumble now and then, on a course terme, though some what vnfitting for so learned discourses, and more vnfit in this treatise for the maiestie and reuerence of the Christian Prince, to be termed by. But let termes passe, and tend to the charge. Not onelie others, but also the Christian Prince, is héere charged and accused by the subiect, of an heynous crime: that whatsoeuer shall please the ciuill Magistrate, The subiects accusatiō of the Prince. ( meaning the Prince) or them-selues ( meaning others in authoritie called by the Prince) To call or counte indifferent, it must be so holden of all men, without any further inquirie. What a sore and sharpe accusation is this? And what a number of waightie branches hange thereon? For a Prince, a Christian Prince, yea the owne liege, naturall, and most godlie Christian Prince: of the sub­iects, yea, of the owne naturall, loyall, and sworne subiects, yea, of vs protestant reformed Christian subiects: yea, of those that pretend to be the most zealous, godlie, learned, faithfull Ministers subiects, to be thus burdened and exclaimed vpon. If this had béene true: yet would it haue required a more reuerent admonition And if it be false: then, to haue béene spoken in neuer so great secret, is both a sinne gréeuous before God, and to our owne estate, dangerous. But to accuse the Prince openlie of so foul [...] a matter, not onelie before God and his Angels: but to publish it in the hearing of all your fellow subiects: to thrust it out in print to other nati­ons, to the wide world, to perpetuall memorie: and as it were, in tables of Brasse, to set it downe in a plotforme, and in a Learned Discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernement: that the Ciuill Magistrate, pointing as it were with your finger, to that so gratious Christian Prince, vnder whome bothe you and we doo so happilie liue: to whom we all doo owe obedience, loue, dutie, honor, fealtie: to whom by so manie great benefits we be ob­liged: that hir Maiestie dooth deale with vs so violentlie, so wilfullie, so vni [...]silie, that whatsoeuer the please to call or count indifferent, it must be so houlden of all men, The heigh­nousnesse of this slander, [...]ot to be an indifferent iudge. without anie further inquirie: What greater crime almost can ye laye to anye, not Christian Princes, but barbarous ty­rants charge, in such a matter, then héere yée haue doone? For, anye to be called a Iudge not indifferent, that is appointed to be a iudge: is to charge him with a fore matter: that either of ignorance (which is too bad in a iudge,) or of knowledge (which is woorse) he is an affectionate, partiall, corrupt, and not a iust iudge. For, what of all these, and woorse, if woorse can be in a iudge, is not conteined in this infamous terme? He is not an [Page 109] indifferent Iudge. When a Iudge determineth a doubt or controuersie, iudiciallie, then to be not indifferent, is the manifest peruerting of his of­fice. For, what is the chéefest point of a Iudges office, but to giue iuste iudgement, and that iustlie? Thou shalt not (saith God vnto a Iudge, Le­uit. 9.) doe vniustlie in iudgement, thou shalt not fauour the person of the poore, nor honour the person of the mightie, but thou shalte iudge thy neighbour iustlie. The chee­fest point [...] of a Iudges office. And what is iustice, but, Suum cuique tribuere, to giue to euerie partie and part that, that apperteineth to the same: so that if there be accepting of the persons, more then of the waighing of the causes: if right be not mi­nistred indifferentlie to all: if the skoales be not of themselues of like poyse, other wise then as the weight of the matter that is put in them, causeth the one to weygh downe the other: and if the toong of the balance incline not downe that waye, after the heauier weight: if were euen a­gainst the course of nature. And if the Iudge, into whose hand God hath put the sworde of Iustice, should not strike right, but cleane ouerthwarte: condemne the innocent, iustifie the guiltie, saye good is euill, and euill is good: light is darkenesse, and darkenesse is light: sower is swéete, and swéete is sower: false is true, and true is false: not indifferent is indiffe­rent, and indifferent is not indifferent: then indéed he were a Iudge not indifferent, but vniust and false. The dang [...]r of this ac­cusation. Such not indifferent Iudges God accurs­seth, and will roote them out. Bicause, where they execute not their owne, but (as Iosaphat calleth them) the iudgements of God: they peruert them to Gods dishonour, to the maintenance of wrong and falshood, and to the iniurie and oppression of the people. This therefore is a most dreadfull accusation.

If ye replie, that ye speake this of others, not of Princes, that in deter­mining indifferent matters they shew themselues not to be indifferent Iudges: had ye said no more thereof, but so left it in suspense, what we might gather by this word they: although it had béene spoken verie sus­pitiouslie, to saye: others there be, with more coulour of reason, that re­ferre onelie indifferent matters to the disposition of Princes: but in de­termining indifferent matters, they shew themselues not to be indiffe­rent Iudges: which they, doo thus shewe themselues? The Princes to whose disposition the matters be referred? Or these others that referre them to the disposition of Princes? Because héere this word they, might be doubtfullie taken: and we ought not to conster doubtfull words odi­ouslie, to the worste parte, if they may be construed to the better: had ye therefore gone no further in the matter, and not your selues made your meaning plaine, and withall a great deale woorse: I might haue béene thought to haue offered you as great wrong, in threaping that sence on your words, as your words offer great wrong to Princes, in burthening Princes with so great a slaunder. But when as vpon these wordes: they [Page 110] shew themselues not to be indifferent Iudges: The Prince sclandered. yée pursue it at the hard [...] héeles, with this illatiue cause: For, whatsoeuer it shall please the Ciuill Magistrate, or themselues, to call or count indifferent, it must be so hol­den of all men without anie further inquirie: doo ye not most apparant­lie (to any that hath but his common sense) inferre this sentence on the other? The Prince directlie ac­cused so wel as others in authoritie. And although ye vtter it disiunaiuelie, saying: The Ciuill Magi­strate or themselues, and not iointlie, the Ciuill Magistrate and them­selues: doo ye not speake it of the one as well as of the other? Yea, and place the Prince in this crime, before the other, as of the twaine, the more culpable?

If this be not a great ouershooting of your duties, a foule forget­fulnesse of your estate and calling, and a verie sore crime for the subie [...] to burthen the Prince withall: then with all my heart I crie God mercie, and I crie you mercie too (my brethren) and will be most readie to make all the amends I may, for mistaking this to be so great a fault in you, that ye haue laide hére so great a fault, vnto your and our Princes charge. And though I would (God he knoweth) be most woe and loathe, The gree­uousnesse of our breth­offence in this slander. to be found culpable of such a crime, as to become an accuser of my brethren, be the matter neuer so true, and much more loath, being false: yet could I rather wish, to susteine all punishment of a slaunderer, then that you or any o­ther could prooue, such foule matter as this is, in her Maiestie. For what one word haue yée brought in all this your Learned Discourse, The Prince Slandered to proou [...] that the Prince inforceth you, to hold any one thing as indifferent, that is not indifferent?

And now (brethren) alleadging no one proofe of anye such matter not indifferent, to be holden indifferent: consider better with your selues, what ye haue héere doone against the Lords annointed, against your one­lie, so good, and gratious Soueraigne: who hath of you hetherto deserued so well, and shall she now of you hir subiects, be rewarded so ill? How [...] should you not be ashamed to be thought so vnthankefull? yea, not tre [...] ­ble and quake, to be found so vndutifull? Not so much for feare onelie, [...] incurre the danger of hir Maiesties indignation: for, (God be blessed [...] it) we haue a most milde and mercifull Princesse, readie to forgiue yo [...]. But what will ye answer to Almightie God, ( for I hope, ye feare God more then man) and God ( whose annointed hir Maiestie is) giueth this straight charge to euerie subiect, Exod. 22. Thou shalt not raile vpon [...] Iudges, neither shalt thou speake euill of the ruler of thy people. No, Reproche [...] the Prince (saith Salomon) so much as in thy thought: Neither speake th [...] euill of the riche, in thy bed chamber: for the foule of the ayre shall carrie thy voyce, a [...]d that which hath wings shall declare the matter, Ecclesiast. 10. And yet (brethren) haue not you feared with open mouthes, to crye o [...] these spéeches in t [...]e ayre, and adde your paper wings vnto them, to flye [Page 111] about in the worlde. Pinion therefore (my brethren) these wilde wings: laye your handes on your mouthes, and acknowledge this great faulte, that ye haue committed: Leaue these contumelious speeches, fitter for e­nemies then for Subiects: crye God and her Maiestie in your hearts hartilie mercie, and with humble reuerence and good opinion, submit your selues to her Maiesties disposition of these matters.

And as I hope (on better aduising of these your vnaduised dealings) yée will not be gréeued thus to do: so I trust that God, Inconside­rate zeale. and vnder GOD her Maiestie, ( considering that all this hath béene risen on a feruencie of zeale (I graunt) to Gods glorie, but not according to the knowledge and learning, whereof you persuade your selues, and not of anye euill will yée beare her Maiestie, but otherwise, loue, honour, obeye her, and wishe as well as we, withall your heartes vnto her) will most rea­dilie bothe forgiue and forget all these your distempered spéeches and demeanors.

If yée thinke, ye haue not committed so great a faulte, since that the matter ( when all is doone) is but for indifferent matters: and whye then, should the matter be made so great, the ground being so little? Lessening the cause dooth ag­grauate the faulte. I praye you (brethren) dooth the lessening of the matter, lessen the faulte: or not rather aggrauate the same? And yet, who make this great adoe, and this foule out-crie on the Prince for indifferent matters? Whereof (in the meane while) ye cannot denie, but the Prince hath the disposition: and when shée hath disposed them, then to crye out on her disposition of them, on this fashion, that she disposeth them so, that if she call or counte them indifferent, it must be so holden of all men without any further inquirie: call ye this (my maisters) a small matter? Dooth not the im­portance euen of all religion hang vpon it? For, if by this sclander, the Prince please to call or counte indifferent anye one, or all the articles of our faithe, it must be so holden of all men without anye further inqui­rie. Maye they not then dispose thus of all religion, and alter the same as it pleaseth them? The verie Antichriste of Rome, This accu­sation rea­cheth fur­ther then we accuse the Pope. went neuer yet so farre, neither doo we burthen him to haue gone so farre, in all his in­tollerable vsurpation, although, hee come verie néere vnto this blas­phemie.

Indéede the Pope and his blasphemous raylers, most impudentlie doo laye suche crimes vnto our Princes charge, and yet hardlie they goe so farre as this reacheth. And shall we then our selues (to confirme their most shamefull lies) accuse our owne so blessed a Prince, with so outra­gious and apparant a slaunder? It helpeth not that he [...] Maiestie is not by name accused.

If yee thinke, yee are to hardlie pressed, as speaking these thinges [...]gainst her Maiestie, whereas yee name her Maiestie not at all, nor [...]nye other Prince particularlie. I confesse, yee shew héerein a pointe [Page 112] of witte and learning▪ in this your Learned Discourse, to learne vs, that although we susteine a snubbe for an vnséemelie terme: yet to saue our selues vpright, and out of daunger, in speaking of Princes, it is good to speake some-what more at randon, and not of this Prince, nor of that Prince, but in generall termes, of the Ciuill Magistrate, and then cannot one Prince finde himselfe, more touched then an other: or at least, though they sée themselues gléeked at, yet cannot such holdfast be taken on their words. Indéed if ye delte thus with meaner persons, it were more tolle­rable, to put a case of Iohn a Stile, or of Ly homo, an Indiuiduū vagum would saue all cleanlie, and might be counted but a presupposall.

But when ye treate, not of a thing that mought, or mought not be doo [...] by Princes, or by the Ciuill Magistrate: but flatlie auouche thinges to be doone by them, and withall complaine of, and accuse the dooing of them: What? doo ye héere complaine of no bodie? Or, as if it were, not yet doone: doo ye crye and be not touched? Or who offendeth you? Do all Princes? Or some Princes? Or which Princes? Naye, (will ye saye) we name none. The Ciuill Magistrate is a tearme indefinite. But how indefinite soeuer it be, either it conteineth all, some, or none. If none: why whine ye? If some: name who. If all: ye haue mended the matter verie well. But what néed this? Will you now also your selues, hauing (al­most euen in your last wordes) found fault with mystes to dazell the eies of ignorant persons, goe about héere to cast mystes to dazell all mens eyes, with these indefinite termes of Princes, & of the Ciuill Magistrate? thinke ye men are such ignorant persons, and verie fooles, that they per­ceaue not, of what state ye speake, and of whome ye héere say, they shewe themselues? Go to, go to, I perceiue you will shew your selues quicklie, whom ye meane. Perhaps, some other reformed Churche, not ours: it is not our state that is so disordered: Neither is it our people, whom [...] ye persuade to leaue this disordered state of ours. Of ours? What sai [...] I? No, not of ours: and to imbrace that most beautifull order of Eccle­siasticall regiment, which God so manifestlie dooth blesse and prosper in our neighbours hand: it is not our Princes disposition of indifferent matters, that ye mislike: it is not our Prince, nor others in authoritie vn­der our Prince, that (ye say) in determining indifferent matters, shewe them-selues not to be indifferent Iudges: it is not our Ciuill Magi­strate, or anie others vnder our Ciuill Magistrate, that yee meane, dea [...] thus with their subiects, that whatsoeuer it shall please the Ciuill Magi­strate, or themselues, to call or counte indifferent, it must be so holden of all men, without anie further inquirie.

Fie, Fie, (my maisters,) doo ye thus so sotte and soothe your selues i [...] so Learned a Discourse, to thinke so courslie of all other men, as that they know not a B from a battle-dore. Who séethe not whome ye meane [...] [Page 113] ye meane by all these spéeches? The Prince with others sclandered▪ And what Prince and other persons ye note, and whom, ye were as good, (saue for fashions sake) to haue euen pointed out with your finger, and named them by expresse name. But de­ceaue not your selues, thinke not thus to bleare all mens eyes with these generall spéeches. For, how-so-euer ye may dazell the eyes of the igno­rant persons: all men, that haue any sight, or wit, not blinded with affectiō, doo sée, as cléerē as noone day, whom ye aime at. Yea, the blinde eyes of the aduersaries sée it and reioyse at it, and all godlie zealous, with discretion and knowledge, doo sée it, and lament it. And all her Maiesties obedient faithfull subiects, your vnfayned well wishing brethren in the Lord, but héerein greatlie dissenting from you, doo sée it with our eyes bedewed with our teares, and in our heartes bewaile and rue the view thereof: praying for you, that God would open your eies and mooue your hearts to consider better of these inconsiderate dealings.

But these our brethren perhaps, will bid vs praie for our selues héere­in, and not for them. For, if there be any faulte about these matters, Our bre­therens ac­cusation of others with the Prince. they impute it not to her Maiestie, so much as vnto others. And therefore they will say, if ye marke our words well, ye shall find that we rather burden others then the Prince. Others? Who be these others? Haue they no names neither? Nay (will they say) we name none, looke you to that, and take it among you. As for vs, we expresselie say, whatsoeuer it shall please the Ciuill Magistrate or themselues, &c.

Yea (my learned maisters) are ye good at that? Nay, then I sée we must marke your wordes better, and whatsouer the Princes calling or counting must be holden without any further inquirie: we must yet by your leaue, enquire further, and take better hold of these your wordes, and call ye to account also, not onelie for the Ciuill Magistrate, but for them, whom héere ye call and counte these themselues, and others that ye mention.

If yee would poste it off to others, to excuse your selues of anye ill meaning ye had, to blemish her Maiestie: I holde well with it: neither doo I vrge your wordes, to the intent to accuse you, but so farre as I may, rather to excuse you. Wishing you (where your accusation of her Maiestie is too apparant) that you should with submission and amend­ment, acknowledge the ouershooting of your duties. For, what dooth this reléeue your accusation, if not onelie the Prince, but others also be ac­cused of these things? If there be others besides the Prince, well may it lessen the Princes faulte, but it dooth not cleare it; if in giuing the dispo­sition of the matters to the Prince, and placeing héerein the Prince be­fore them, yee make not the Prince rather principall in the faulte, then accessarie

But bicause héere are others with the Prince accused: maye we be so [Page 114] bold to inquire further of these others? What haue others to doo in these matters? What? Whatsoeuer it shall please them-selues also, to call or count indifferent, it must be so holden of all men, without any further inquirie. Where in these others are accused. Doo they so? Then are they as déepe in, as the Prince. And doo they all this, without the Prince: or with the Prince? We say: whatsoe­uer it please the Ciuill Magistrate or them-selues. Then, if ye meane it disiunctiuelie without the Prince: the Princes faulte was by it selfe, as theirs also by themselues, and the one neither burtheneth nor easeth the other.

Naye (will they saye) we meane not so, but by the one or the other, we conclude them bothe. But the question was, of the Princes authoritie and disposing. Belike then the Prince dooth not dispose these indifferent matters all alone, nor whatsoeuer pleaseth him or her selfe: but, whatso­euer pleaseth them-selues: so that, the Prince hath some others assistant, at least for enformation what these things are, The Princes clearing, not to dispose these mat­ters all a­lone. yea to be determiners and iudges, to haue the same so called and accounted. Héere then, the Prince plaieth not the Tyrants part: this is not, Sic volo sic iube [...], stet pro ra­tione voluntas, thus will I haue it, thus I command it be: let that stand for reason, whatsoeuer pleaseth me: but contrariwise, héere is the token of a good Prince, that will not dispose of these matters alone, but call others vnto this deliberation. Well then, the Prince is cléered of that point. And now if there be no greater, or not more faultes in these others, to abuse the Princ, ( for ought that I sée) the Prince will soone be quitte.

But now, though the Prince be of a good nature and meaneth well: yet great fault may be in these others, who to flatter the Prince, will re­ferre all matters to the princes disposition. Such I graunt there may be, yea, there is no prince so good, whom flatterers tempt not now and then.

But (brethren) take héede héere, that you doo not eftsoones abuse the prince, Whether the faulte be in these others. vnder pretence of speaking against such flatterers: and that yé [...] also abuse none others in authoritie about the prince, by such odious and suspitious spéeches. It is (ye know) the common practise of the arrantest rebels, not to pretend so much their quarrell directlie against the prince: as to saye, Rebels practise. the prince ( whom still they praise to be naturallie of a good dis­position) hath others of counsell and authoritie, by whom the Prince is lead and abused. And these others, they would haue onelie remooued. I doo not (brethren) bring this, as an instance to resemble your dooings: but that ye should beware, least yée should resemble them. And yet as it is good for princes to take héede, what counsell of others they doo follow: so if this Prince héere, whome ye call the Ciuill Magistrate, examine these others, of whom yee haue mooued this suspition, whether they be such [...]atterers, yea or no: néede they desire anye better witnesses for them, [Page 115] than your selues? For who-so-euer they be, (bicause it might be odious to inquire their names) they séeme to be no flatterers of the Prince. For your selues saye of them: others there be, These other [...] giue the Prince no absolute power, &c. that referre onelie indifferent matters to the disposition of princes. In which wordes, although they giue to princes an authoritie of disposing: yet they restraine it onelie to indifferent matters. So that, they giue not princes that onelie high au­thoritie and absolute power, that all things in the Ecclesiasticall state are to be disposed by the Ciuill Magistrate: or that all the regiment of the churche dependeth on the supreame authoritie of the Christian princes: but the disposition of princes ( by these men, whom ye ter [...]e others,) is restrained onelie to indifferent matters. Whereby it séemeth, These others feare God. that these others, are men of conscience and knowledge, hauing the feare of God before their eyes, nor giue the prince the disposition of any one thing, which God alreadie hath disposed. So that hetherto, and that by your selues, these others also are acquitted, except there be further mat­ter against them.

But ( say our brethren) in determining indifferent matters, they shew themselues not to be indifferent Iudges.

What? are these others then, These others intrude not themselues into the of­fice of iud­ging. Iudges also and determiners of these matters? These are great offices: who called them héere-vnto? The prince called them to be examiners, and the iudgement and determina­tion of these matters, apperteyneth to their office. And did they not then intrude themselues? No. But they shew themselues not to be indiffe­rent Iudges. Why so? Are they partiall to themselues? These others take not the disposing to themselues, but giue it to the Prince. And Iudge or determine, that indifferent matters, belong to their owne dispositi­on? No, they referre that, from themselues, to the disposition of princes.

How are they partiall then? Belike they referre it to the Prince, bi­cause they are matters that onelie concerne the Prince, and not them­selues. Naye, they concerne them-selues, as much, or more, then any o­ther: and the iudgements and determinations what is the nature of those matters, doo especiallie apperteine vnto them. Doo they so? Both these others and the Prince cleered. sée how these things fall out, both for the Prince and for these others.

The Prince hath héere authoritie to dispose of indifferent mat­ters. How-be-it the prince will not dispose of them alone, but choo­seth and calleth others, which by their office and function, are most skilfull, to discerne indifferent matters from matters not indifferent, which intrude not them-selues into the iudgement and determining of these matters: which are so farre off to encroche anye aduantage or authoritie to them-selues héereby, that they referre these matters to the princes disposition: Neuerthelesse the prince will dispose [Page 116] nothing, but that which these men shall be Iudges and determiners of it, to be suche an indifferent matter, as whereof the Prince maye dis­pose: neither dooth the Prince impose anie thing vpon them, against their willes, nor craueth any thing of them, to Iudge or determine, this waie or that waie, what is, or what is not, an indifferent matter, but leaueth that frée to these others iudgement and determination. Héere the subiects giue the Princes their due, and goe no further: héere the Prin­ces take no more then is their due, nor all that neither, and but by the subiects owne consent, and by their aduise, iudgement and determinati­on, of the matters indifferencie, to whose skill and function it chéefelie apperteineth. Héere neither the Princes can complaine of the subiects, to intrude themselues, and to vsurpe vpon the Princes authoritie and disposition, Neither the subiects can complaine on the Princes, to en­croche on matters disposed of alreadie by GOD, to rule all alone, to determine all by selfe-will, or to take aduise of those that haue no skill, or to impose on them matters that concerne them, with-out their own [...] consents and determinations.

O what a pittifull péece of worke is héere. Is not this a heynous mat­ter, and this Prince worthie in such a Learned Discourse, to be coursed & cried out vpon: yea to be blazed forth in reproche to all the world, for this so great and foule a crime? But what then shall we saye to these others, these most perilous others, who-so-euer they be, these others, that are the causers of all this the Princes dooing? For they, they of all others, are such off-scowrings, out-parings, woonderments, and gazing-stockes of the whole world, as he was, on whom the Iewes cryed, Actes, 22. Awaye with suche a fellowe from the earthe, for hee is not worthye to liue.

How indif­ferentlie these others are thus accused for these in­different matters. Ha, brethren, is this your indifferent dealing with Christian Prin­ces, about indifferent matters, and that with your owne so gratious Soueraigne: (yea, let it be what Christian Prince ye please, to shift it vnto) and is this also your indifferent dealing, with such others as thes [...] are, euen by your owne testimonies of them? How can ye (for very [...] shame) avowe this saying, that this Prince, and these others, doo call and count indifferent matters, whatsoeuer pleaseth themselues? What? Quicquid libet licet? Or Quicquid licet libet? Doo ye meane, that (without all regard of GOD, The further parts of this accusation. of their callings, of their people, of the matter,) they runne altogither on a head, and follow onelie their owne pleasure, without any deliberation of the matter? This were not onelye wil­full and wicked, but méere brutish. Or meane yee, when they haue deliberated and throughlie debated thereon, that that (whatsoeuer it bee) pleaseth them to call and counte for indifferent, which they [Page 117] shall finde indéed so to be? Yea, but howsoeuer they doo it: yet, whatsoe­euer shall please themselues to call or count indifferent, that must be so holden of all men.

What? of all the nations in the worlde? What haue they to doo with all men? Naye, of all men, that they haue to doo with all, as the subiects to that Prince. And whye not I praye you? Would ye haue the subiects to dispise or disobey their determination? Or to estéeme those thinges which they call and account indifferent, to be not indifferent? And not indifferent to be indifferent? And still to vse them, Whether things law­fullie deter­mined are not so of the sub­iects to be holden in­uiolabl [...]e. as they their selues listed, at their pleasure? Or that things indifferent of their owne nature, should be vsed still according to their owne nature: indifferent things in­differentlie, by euerie man at his owne disposition? Or that whether anye vsed them or no, it makes no matter which end go forward? Would ye haue the subiects still at this libertie? But what néed then anye dispo­sing of them at all? Or anye question of them? Or to trouble the Prince, or anye others about them? Or what authoritie at all call ye that, either of Iudging, determining, or disposing of them, when euerie man maye doo as he please, and is not so much as bounden to hold them, or to ac­count of them, as they be iudged, determined, and disposed, but maye still dispose of them at his owne pleasure, without anye restraint or con­trollement? For so they might haue doone before, and as good neuer a whit as neuer the better. If a matter be lawfullie adiudged, determi­ned, and disposed: whye should it not of all men that liue vnder those Iudges, determiners and disposers, be so holden and accounted? Either it is an order, or it is none: and if an order, either to be counted and hol­den orderlie, or as good make none.

Yea, but (say they) must it be so holden and accounted of all men, without anie further inquirie? And what would yee inquire further? How farre they are further to be inquired vpon. Would yée call it againe in question? And when shoulde we then haue doone? And what would yée inquire vpon? Whether it were so? That is alreadie iudged and determined. Whether it were to be obserued and holden or no? That is likewise alreadie disposed. And how would ye inquire? as those that would gladlie learne, what is Iudged & determi­ned of the matters indifferencie, and what is disposed to be so holden & accounted? And vnderstanding the same, beléeue it so to be, and obey it? Or to be fresh Iudges, determiners and disposers of it? And yet when ye haue so doone, may not other saye as much on your iudgement, deter­mination, and disposition? So that, if further inquirie for these matters shall be thus admitted: then shall none of all these matters be euer fullie iudged determined or disposed: but still further inquiries made one af­ter another, and neuer an end, neuer any certeine resolution of these mat­ters: but héerein to be alwaies like those, of whome the Apostle 2. Tim. 3. [Page 118] speaketh, The cal­ling things determined into fur­ther que­stio [...]. Euer learning, and neuer able to come to the knowledge of the truthe. Would ye haue it thus? No, if it were once throughlie inquired vpon, it should goe no further. And who should be these last and full inquisitors, once for all? Will our brethren step out and say: that will we be? You? Who are you? Princes or subiects? Naye, but subiects also, as these o­thers are, some of the cleargie, and some of the laitie. What, and would you be Iudges and determiners? Whie not, as well as those others, sithe the matters concerne vs also. And would ye be Iudges and deter­miners without the Prince, and without these others: or with them? Naye, we would Iudge and determine with them. And must they then reuerse their owne former iudgements and determinations? Or else how is it a further inquirie? Let them choose: we will inquire of the matters further. What, vncalled of the Prince? Naye, the Prince shall call vs. And will ye prescribe the Prince to call you? Then you call the Prince, rather than the Prince you. We will not prescribe nor compell the Prince so to doo: but if the Prince call the others and not vs, we will call bothe the Prince and them (by their leaues) not indifferent Iudges. And what if the Prince cut off bothe them and you, and (to voide partiall­lie and stinte all strife) will Iudge all alone? Will ye then stand to the Princes iudgement? If the Prince Iudge as we would haue it: els not. And must it be as euerie one of you woulde haue it? What if some would haue this, and some would haue that? Must euerie man, or some for all, be admitted on your side with the others? Naye, not all, that wer [...] confusion, and cannot well be doone: but we would compromitte our voi­ces vnto some. And what now, if ye had alreadie all this, that yée séeme to desire: and those some for you, that haue béene in the Iudging and de­termining the indifferencie of such matters, haue assented vnto the orders of them that are alreadie disposed? Or were by the most and best part of the assemblie so evicted: that the matter hath béene sufficientlie inquired of, examined, Iudged, determined, and resolued alreadie, and therevpon by the Prince also disposed? Will not all this yet content you? No, no: we will then say and still crye out, that In determining indifferent mat­ters, they shew themselues not to be indifferent Iudges. And whye will ye thus complaine on them? For, whatsoeuer it shall please the ciuill Ma­gistrate, or themselues, to call or count indifferent: it must be so holden of all men, without any further inquirie.

This then (I perceaue) must be the fa-burden of all this song. The Prince shall haue a title of supreme authoritie, [...]he conclu­sion of all this accusa­tion. to dispose indifferent matters: and others shall inquire, iudge, and determine, which be and which be not indifferent matters. But if the Prince or these others, who­soeuer they be, either inquire of, or Iudge, or determine, or dispose, o­therwise of them, then shall please such as these our brethren the Learned [Page 119] Discoursers: not onelie they may course them for it, How this toucheth all politike matters. and discourse these matters againe more learnedlie: but it must be still free for all men, when and as often, and how they please, to inquire further, on all that is doone, and reuoke all their former inquiries, iudgements, determinations and dispositions: or else they shall haue this peale roong them: In determi­ning indifferent matters, they shewe themselues not to be indifferent Iudges. For, whatsoeuer it shall please the Ciuill Magistrate, or them­selues to call or count indifferent, it must be so holden of all men with­out anie further inquirie. And now if there be any indifferent Iudge, let him Iudge ( I beséech him) indifferentlie: If they deale thus with indif­ferent matters, ( wherein the Princes supremacie hath the greatest force) what is left to the Prince, or to any of these others, to enquire, iudge, de­termine, or to dispose vpon?

And how now: may not this also reach, How da [...] ­gerouslie this accusa­tion reach­eth from in­different matters in eccle. causes to all poli­tike matters by as much (not coulour of reason) but substance of reason, to all politike matters in the common­weale, as well as to these Ecclesiasticall, so farre foorth as both of them be indifferent? Whereby they may as well, when the Prince and all the states of the realme, haue determined, iudged, and disposed, of any such indifferent matter, crie out on the Prince and all others in the Parle­ment, and repeate this sclander in their former leoden: that in determi­ning indifferent matters, they shew themselues not to be indifferent iudges. For, whatsoeuer it shall please the Ciuill Magistrate and them­selues, to call and count indifferent, it must be so holden of all men, with­out any further inquirie. And thus may all the supreme authoritie of the Christian Prince, both in politike and ecclesiasticall matters, be cleane ouerthrowne: and euerie man set at libertie, to exclaime with o­pen mouthe on their soueraigne, and of all others in authoritie: and vn­der pretence of further inquirie, God knowes how farre they will runne. We sée a turbulent & Comicall beginning, but we sée not the lamentable & Tragicall ending of these things: Principiss obsta, serò medicina paratur.

But of the Princes authoritie in these matters, thus roughlie hewed at the entrie, they will héere for this time make a pawse, and promise for a while to go no further, hauing indéed at this verie first steppe gone ouer the shooes alreadie, more then a little to farre: and yet would God, they could héere haue made a cleanlie stoppe, and not made the matter a great deale worse, but haue rested at these words, saying:

But of the supreme authoritie of Christian Princes in Ecclesiasticall causes, how fa [...]e it extendeth by the word of God, we shall haue better occasion to intreate hereafter, when we haue described the ecclesi. state.

And I pray God, better intreating and treating to: for, this was but a harde intreating of Christian Princes, and a sorie treatie of their su­preame authoritie. But belike the moouing héere of these matters, [Page 120] for the Prince, ( though indéed mooued by themselues) in the course of their Learned Discourse of ecclesiasticall gouernement, by their foure estates, to be thus but a little interrupted, by touching onelie, rather then by trea­ting, of the christian Princes supreame authoritie, did some what perhaps disturbe and mooue their patience. And therefore, as they héere till heere­after take their leaue: so in this perturbation at the parting, declaring the cause of their departure now from them, and whye they néed not, and will not talke further with them at this time: in stéed of shaking or ra­ther wringing handes, they giue them such a parting blow for a farewell, such a volie for a vale: that it were inough (vnlesse they handle them gentlier heereafter, at their better occasion) to dashe all Christian Prin­ces, for all their magnanimitie, out of countenance: yea, to thrust them cleane out of Christendome, except they will holde themselues contented, with such places and authoritie, as they (after they haue at large descri­bed the ecclesiast. state, and fullie serued all their foure Tetrarks) shall please to assigne vnto them. And now, declaring their reasons héereof to euerie man, thinking (belike) that euerie man hath an interest in the fur­ther inquirie of these matters, they saye as followeth.

And that it is neither needfull nor agreeable to good order of tea­ching, The learned dis­course. Page. 9. and 10. to begin first therewith, it may be plaine to euerie man by this reason. The church of God was perfect in all hir regiment, before there was any Christian Prince: yea, the churche of God may stand & dooth stand at this daie in most blessed estate, where the Ciuill Magistrates, are not the greatest fauourers. By which it is manifest, that the regi­ment and gouernement thereof, dependeth not vpon the authoritie of Princes, but vpon the ordinance of God: who hath most mercifullie and wiselie so established the same, that, as with the comfortable aide of Christian Magistrates, it may singulerlie flourish and prosper: so with­out it, it may continue, and against the aduersaries thereof preuaile. For the church craueth helpe and defence of Christian Princes, to con­tinue and go forward more peaceablie and profitablie, to the setting vp of the kingdome of Christe: but all her authoritie she receaueth im­mediatlie of God.

In these words our bretheren the Learned Discoursers, to breake off this matter, Bridges. hauing alledged one of their reasons, ( as we haue heard) why they will not make their first treatie, on the supreame authoritie of Christian Princes: which reason was this, that they would not seeme to confirme the opinion of those, to whom (it seemeth) that all the regiment of the Church dependeth, on the Christian Princes supreme authoritie: and by the way answered (as we haue likewise heard) the opinion of o­thers, that referre indifferent matters to the Princes disposition: They now conclude this point with another answere, saying:

[Page 121]It is neither needefull, To beginne with the Princes au­thor. need­full. nor agreeable to good order of teaching, to beginne first therewith.

This scruple (I perceaue) sticketh yet in their stomakes, & peraduen­ture suspecting, y ^t they had hetherto sayd nothing oughtes-worth vnto the purpose, whie the Prince in this their Learned discourse, should not haue the principall place: that they might therefore procéede more frankely, this offence beeing taken away: (for the Princes supreame authoritie is no small moate in their eyes) they will yet, ere they part, confirme it fur­ther, with a fewe moe reasons, and so leaue it (as they promised) till hereafter.

And first ( they say) it is not needefull to beginne first therewith. VVhether it be needefull to beginne with the Princes au­thoritie. If by needefull, they meane necessarie: they might seeme to say somewhat to the purpose. For so, it was not needefull for them at all, to haue entred into this Learned discourse, nor to haue delt on this wise, nor to haue pro­céeded so far therein. Neither yet needful, as behouefull for them, or to all the parties to whom they haue communicated the same: but méere need­lesse, and better if they had dealt lesse: yea much better, if not at all, but had béene déedelesse to therein. But hauing vnnecessarily intruded themselues into this discourse: I thinke it had béene verie needefull, Needefull necessarie & conuenien [...]. though not in necessitie, yet of conueniencie and of duetie, to haue giuen the Prince ( be­ing the principall partie) the principall place. Yea, had it béene but for verie reuerence and and comelinesse, or to auoyde offence and suspition, both of the Prince and of manye others, especially in this last age of the worlde, whereof S. Paule prophecied. 2. Tim. 3. saying: This knowe also, that in the last dayes shall come perilous times, for men shalbe louers of their owne selues, couetous, boasters, proude, cursed speakers, disobedient to parents, vnthank­full, vnholy, without naturall affection, truce-breakers, false accusers, intempe­rate, fierce, dispisers of them that are good, traytors, headdie, highe minded, lo­uers of pleasures, more than louers of God, hauing a shadowe of godlinesse, but ha­uing denied the power thereof. Turne therefore away from such, &c.

Sith nowe of such as all these are, we sée the manifest experience, both in the Papistes, and in the Anabaptistes, in these last dayes: howe much needefull therefore might it well be thought for vs, in anie treatie of go­uernement in Gods Church, next after Iesus Christe himselfe, to haue preferred none in place, till we had seene howe farre the Princes right had stretched. And to haue followed S. Peters order, who, after hee had gene­rally handled the spirituall state of our Christianity, entring into the trea­tise of conuersation and gouernement of the Church: first requireth sub­mission to Princes, as to the chiefe, and then procéedeth to the dutie of hus­bandes, and wiues, of neighbours one to another, and so commeth to the Pastors and the people. Not, that this order is so needefull neither, that it should prescribe: and yet, if the Apostles at any time giue the chiefest [Page 122] place to Princes, Good or­der of tea­ching. which at that time (as our brethren héere saye) were not yet become Christian Princes: what woulde they haue doone, had they béene Christians? And howe much more should we (they nowe be­ing Christians) when as wee treate of the externall Regiment of the Church, next and immediately after Christe, giue the first treatise to Christian Princes, as to the Supreame Gouernours of the same. Espe­cially, the Princes, being in lawefull possession of the Supreame Gouern­ment, and the same possession established vnto them: how needefull were it, (if not necessarie,) first to consider the title of them that pleade in posses­sion established, or euer any other Gouernours be brought in. But nee­ding not stande so muche on neede: All thinges (sayeth Saint Paule) are lawefull vnto me, but all thinges are not expedient. 1. Corinth. 10. You needed not (brethren) to haue kept this order of your treatise, but you should haue béene more heedefull to that, that is expedient, than to that that is needefull. So that the Princes supreame authoritie be reserued intyer, (for that is needefull) vse your libertie in the order of your trea­ting thereon, a Gods name.

But ye adde, that it is neither needefull, nor agreeable to good or­der of teaching, to beginne first therewith.

It will perhaps set your teachers and Seniors out of the order that ye haue placed them in, The begin­ning with the Princes treatise a­greeable to good order of teaching. if it cleane remooue not some of them. And so I graunt, it is not agreeable to your order of teachinge in this Learned discourse. But otherwise, it is agreeable to all good order of teaching well ynough. And I take it to be as good an order of teaching, as anie o­ther. Namely, treating of the order of Gouernement, first to set downe the best and chiefest Governour.

Your selues do teache this Order in your Tetrarchie: first, Teachers, then Pastours, thirdly Gouernours, and lastly Deacons. Wherefore (I pray you) doe ye marshall them thus, The order of our bre­thren in pla­cing their Tetrarkes. and treate on them afterwarde at large in this order? ( For I can shew you an other order in Gods word) but that you thinke this to be a good order of teaching, to place them ac­cording to their dignities. And so you say, page. 15. the office of teaching is the first and principall office that is in the Church. If you nowe [...] ­stéeme their dignities thus, and according thereunto giue them their for­mer or later places: since that by your owne confession alreadie past, the Christian Princes haue Supreame authoritie in Eccl. causes, which non [...] of these 4. Tetrarkes, nor all of them haue, and so, are higher in dignitie then they all: how is not then the office of the Christian Princes, the first and principal office in the Church: which you attribute to the teachers? And why may not by this your owne reason, the Princes interest & office be treated vpon, before any of all these Tetrarkes?

No, no, to beginne first with the Supreame authoritie of Christian [Page 123] Princes in Eccles. causes, The argu­ment to put backe the Prin­ces treatise is neither needefull nor agreeable to good or­der of teaching. But to beginne with all these 4. Tetrarks, first Teachers, then Pastors, then Gouernors, & then Deacons, and then to sée what re­maineth for the Christian Princes: yea, yea, that, that, is needfull, and is very agreeable to good order of teaching.

O, this is a proper, needefull, agreeable, good, and orderly kind of tea­ching, is it not? Our brethe­rens strife for the first place. But I pray you (my Masters) in this your Learned dis­course, teach me one thing here for my learning. Wherefore make ye all this a-doe, to haue the Prince come after al these 4. Estates? Doe ye striue so earnestly (as did, yea, more thē did the Pharisees) for the highest roomes▪ that Princes and all, must giue roome to these your newe Tetrarkes, and that so soone as euer their heades péepe out of the shell? Our Chronicles tell vs of the old striuing for places nowe and then, among the Popishe Archbishops: and do you so reprehend all Archbishops, that not only they must be cleane put downe, but Princes and all put backe, till euery one of these newe Tetrarkes come foorth, and haue taken their places. Whi [...], (brethren) you of all men, shoulde not thus doe, who pretende equalitie. What, is it to be equall to Princes? or to haue equalitie in the mini­sterie? You can-not abide these names of Grace, of Honour, of Lordes. Doe ye shunne the names, and shooue at the matter? And so farre, that Emperours, Kings, Queenes, and all Christian Princes, for all their supremacie, must backarie, and come after you; or else, it is not agreea­ble to good order of teaching? If yée teache in this order, it is such a lesson, that (I am a-fraide) some can not easelie learne it. But for my parte, I hope it is not of anie pride in you. Neuerthelesse, I tell you playnelie, as my friendes and bretheren, leaue it: for manie mislike it, and suspecte it shrewdely, if it be not of pride, yet, to be no orderlie kinde of Teaching, nor good and plaine dealing with Christian Princes.

But you say, it may be plaine to euery man, by this reason.

The Church of God was perfecte in all her Regiment, The argu­ment to put backe the treatise of the Princes authoritie. before there was any Christian Prince: Yea the Church of God may stand, and doth stande, at this day in most bessed estate, where the Ciuill Magistrates are not the greatest fauourers. By which it is manifest, that the Regiment and Gouernment therof, dependeth not vpon the authoritie of Princes, but vpon the ordinance of God.

May it be plaine to euerie man by this reason? Euerie reason or ar­gument, as it should be good and true, both for forme & matter: so it ought to be directed to the purpose, and to conclude the point that is to be proued. And then, to euerie man it is a plaine reason.

What nowe is the point here to be prooued?

It is not needefull nor agreeable to good order of teaching, to begin [Page 124] first with intreating of the Supreame authoritie of Christian Princes in Eccles. causes. The argu­ment▪

This then (beeing the point to be prooued) must by necessarie conse­quence of the premisses, be plainely argued and set downe in the conclusi­on: or else euerie man may plainely see, it is no plaine reason, nor need­full to be yéelded vnto, nor agreeable to good order of teaching; but ei­ther some intricate Sophistication, or some vnnecessarie conclusion, litle or nothing pertayning to the purpose.

Plaine dealing (sayeth the Prouerbe) is a Iewell. Let vs there­fore sée this plaine reason, and the parts thereof, whether it conclude this point, or no.

The Church of God was perfect in all her regiment, before there was anie Christian Prince:

Yea, The Church of God may stande, and doeth stande at this day in most blessed state, where the Ciuill Magistrates are not the greatest fauourers.

What is the conclusion?

By which it is manifest, that the Regiment and Gouernment there­of, dependeth not vppon the authoritie of Princes, but vpon the ordi­nance of God, &c.

Loe, howe plaine to euerie man, and howe agreeable to good order of teaching, in any figure and moode of Syllogisme this reason is framed: and how patte the conclusion of this reason, hittes the point to be prooued, which they haue here so lustily auouched, may be plaine to euerie man by this reason.

What, will our Learned brethren here say? Tush, we meane not, in saying: it may be plaine to euerie man by this reason; to reason so strict­ly, A Learned discourse. according to the order of teaching in Logike: but we reason at large Rhethorically. This is (ye wotte) a Learned discourse, and therefore we are not bounde to make short conclusions, but according to our title, to shewe our Learning in discoursing on it.

Call ye this discoursing? It is a Discourse indéede, but of the coursest fashion that euer I saw. I know these Discoursers haue learning ynough, though they spare it here: yet if they should vtter it, I would bee loath, for my part, to contende with them.

But sée, howe affection in discoursing may carrie Learning and all, quite away, The hurt of too much affection. so farre from reason: that here neither in matter, truthe on­lie (which is principall) is remembred: nor in forme and manner, anie good order of teaching is obserued; nor yet in the conclusion, the prin­cipall point is marked, but gone cleane from, whereunto all the reason should be leaueled.

Well, yet, since this is the best reason, and all, that here, or hereafter [Page 125] they haue, to make this matter plaine to euerie man: The argu­ment a priore. least perhaps in the partes, or in the conclusion, there might lie hidden some further mat­ter, or reason, then they would open plaine to euerie man: let vs weighe the partes and conclusion better, and lay them more open, that euery man may perceaue plainely, the plaine truthe, and full validitie of this rea­son. For this seemeth to be a great reason, and to haue many small rea­sons in it.

First, on this first and maior proposition of the same, the Church of God was perfect in all her regiment, Our brethe­rens arg. fr [...] senioritie. before there was anye Christian Prince: although they make no direct conclusion thereon, yet they séeme to drawe an argument, à priore, from the former, as pleading from the elder hande, by senioritie; and on that also procéede to the greater perfe­ction, and thereupon reason, as it were, in this manner.

That which in the regiment thereof, was perfect before the other: that is to be treated vpon before the other.

But the Church of God was perfect in all her regiment, before there was anie Christian Prince:

What followeth hereupon but this?

Therefore the Church of God is to be treated vppon before Christi­an Princes.

But the question is not here betwixt the Church of God, Our brethe­rens conclu­sion not in question. and Christi­an Princes, whether of them shall first be treated vpon. For, whereas the name of the Church, is an integrall worde, and conteyneth the whole: and the Christian Princes are, though principall partes, yet but particu­ler partes thereof, included in the whole: and so the question were, as if one should aske, whether is the man before the head, or the head before the man? they offer therefore herein an iniurie to Christian Princes, as séeming to contende with the whole, and so striued against themselues, be­ing partes of the whole.

And yet, if a man would make an Anatomie of the whole body, and be­ginne with the treatise of the head, as the principall part, though the head was not the first part that was formed, but the heart, or some other, and afterwarde the heade: yet, beginning with the head, and to treate first of the office and powers thereof, hee should not doe a thing disagreeable to good order of teaching. Or, in the description of a house, though the house was not perfect till all the partes were made: if hee treated first of the court, or of the hall, or of the roofe, which perhappes were buil­ded last: yet might hee in processe, orderly describe the whole house.

For our question is not heere, of anie part compared with the whole: but in the whole, of anie parte compared to another. For, as the Christian Princes are but partes of the Church of God: so these foure estates that claime the direction of all Eccl matters in the Church, are but partes of [Page 126] the Church also. The argu­ment à Priore. So that, this first and Maior proposition, might haue béene lesse captious (as will appeare after in the viewe of the conclusion) and a great deale plainer: not to say, the Church of God was perfect in all her regiment: but, this kinde of gouernment: or, these only 4. estates in the Church, were Gouernors, before there were in the Churche of God any Christian Princes.

But because in this proposition, you include here these two thinges: the one that these foure Tetrarkes ( vnder the name of the Church) were before anie Christian Princes: the other, that their regiment was in all pointes of regiment, a perfect regiment, before that Christian Princes had in the Church of God anie being at all: let vs therefore consider a li­tle better, either of these two thinges, both of what force they are in con­sequence, to strengthen your reason; and of what truthe in substance, to giue credite to the matter thereof.

And first, for the force of the reason and argument, A Priore, ad­mitting the case, A thing is saide to be before ano­ther in di­uers senses. that these foure Tetrarkes were the former: yet, sithe Prius est multiplex: Tempore, Natura, Ordine, Honore: A thing is sayde to be before an-other, in diuerse respectes: eyther before it in time, or in the nature of the thing, or in the order of the place, or in the honour of the dignitie: we must looke to your tracke, howe ye confounde these thinges. For if yée make (as heere yee seeme to doe) your reason for these Tetrarkes from Senioritie, that because they were in time before, therefore in the order of treating on them, they must be placed before: and hauing encroched thus farre: Former in time infer­reth not for­mer in or­der, & much lesse in ho­nour. créepe yet further, that therefore also in dignitie, and honor, they must be set before, to make vp the perfecti­on of the Churches Regiment. This must bee cut shorte, and your Se­nior in time ( presupposing he were so) must be bidden to leaue his pear­ching, and drawe backe with shame, to come after both in order of place, and in honour of regiment, for anie necessitie that he can claime, but to be Master Prior in his owne Cell, which is of time onely. So that A­ristotles rule thereof is true: but euerie cocke on his owne dunghill: there let him crowe and crake, as fast as he will. And yet notwithstanding not without exceptions.

Antiquitie of time makes a iolie claime. Bonum, quò antiquius, eò me­lius. A good thing the more auncient, the better. Howe-be-it, this is not true in all good thinges. Neither doeth this rule so much respect the time, as the nature and continuance of those good thinges. So that, it is true in those good thinges, which eyther of their nature are not m [...] ­table, or their inutabilitie doeth better their state, and so the time is limited till they come to their perfection. For otherwise, in thinges that are the worse for wearing, or are past the periode of their ripenesse: the former and the elder are the worse. And if the former in time be thu [...] [Page 127] and yet more, restrayned, in his owne kinde of foremanship: Former in time. when the former in time, will waxe so proude of his birthright, that he must néedes haue place in order, and preferment also in regiment, before all his youn­ger brethren: I could shewe you not onely manie specialties and exam­ples against it; but you can shewe no necessarie rule, to prescribe vpon it, that, that which was former in time, Examples of the later in time former in order. must alwaies haue the first place in treatie. Except the treatie be, to discribe the manner howe the thinges beganne. For though Moses, writing of Gods creation of the worlde, set downe the manner, and tell what was created the first day, when as yet other things were not created, and so the second and the third day, and all the residue, mankinde being created last of all: yet cannot we rightly say, y ^t he, which would take vpon him to treate eyther by writing or spea­king of Gods works, or of the gouernment of his Church, or of God him selfe, which in euerie respect in nature, time, order, honor, & cause, is first and before all other thinges, is tyed to this order, so that God must bee first treated vpon: or else it is not a treatise agreeable to good order of teaching. Did S. Paule teach the Romanes amisse, when he sayd, Rom. 1. His invisible things, being vnderstood by his workes, through the cre­ation of the worlde, are seene, that is, both his eternall power and god­head? Doth not Caluine beginne his institutions first with the knowledg of man, and so ascende to the knowledge of God? Had not Christe a num­ber of Disciples first, out of whom afterwarde he chose his 12. Apostles? And yet doth not S. Paul 1. Cor. 12. recken them vp in this order, that God hath ordeyned some in the Church: as first Apostles, secondly Prophets, thirdly Teachers? And Ephes. 4. He therefore gaue some to be Apostles, and some Prophets, and some Euangelists, & some Pastors & Teachers? Yea, doe not your selues also fetch your Seniors pedegrée so high, that ye make them to be Seniors in antiquitie of time, both to the Euangelists, and to the Apostles? And neuerthelesse in this your treatise yee place them af­ter them? What, shall we say therefore: it is not agreeable to good order of teaching, thus to place thē after: because in the Church of God, ye say, there was a regiment of thē, before there were Euangelistes or Apostles?

If yée saye, ye stande not so muche of the placing of them, in respect of the Prioritie of the time, as of the dignitie: saying, Former in honour, not alwaies for­mer in or­der. that yée speake of perfection and of regiment, and therefore in time and honour also it is before them: and whie not then in order of place to haue the former trea­tie? yet foloweth this no more thē the other. Is not God before al things, in all respectes? And yet first or last, by good order of teaching may bée treated vpon. And as in the regiment of a mans life, though he first ap­prehend a thing with his senses, & his senses conueigh it to the intellectual powers: besides, that his senses be freshest when he is young & vnexpert­his science groweth after vpon long experience, when his senses decaye: [Page 128] againe, Former in dignitie. his habites of vertues arise first on his actions precedent, and fe­licitie succéedeth on his habites last of all, though in dignitie of honour first and chiefest: yet may anie man treating of these naturall and morall matters, pertayning to the regiment of mans life, eyther (per synthesin) beginne with the partes, and so by little and little ioyne and knitte them altogether, till he come to the highest and make vp the whole: or beginne with the whole, and per analysin resolue it and make (as it were) an Ana­tomie of all the partes and powers: and eyther beginne with the soule and the faculties thereof, and so come to the bodie, and the partes there [...]: or beginne with the bodie, and so come to the soule: so that (which way so euer he procéede) when he commeth orderly to any facultie or parte, he so set out the same, with the full power and perfect regiment of it, that no iniurie to anie facultie or part be offered, nor any confusion, by shuffling one into the office and regiment of an other. This rule therefore, that be­cause it is first in time before another, it is in order to bee first treated vpon before an other: or, because other as yet were not, therefore that which was before, made a perfect regiment: is no perfect nor good ar­gument. Which argument being grounded on so vncertaine and weak [...] foundation: all that is built thereon is easily shattered.

The Papistes for the traditions of the Church which they call the vn­written worde, The Papists argument à p [...]iore for traditions. or veritie vnwritten, vse the like argument against the authoritie of Gods written word, and veritie of the Scripture. The word was deliuered by tradition of preaching, before it was deliuered by wri­ting: therefore, traditions are of no lesse authoritie, nor lesse to be be­leeued, then the written worde and holie scripture: yea, the Churches authoritie is aboue the scriptures, and is the iudge thereof Thus doe the Papistes encroche from the time to the authoritie, as our brethren heere doe.

Nowe, as this reason faileth, both for the Senioritie of time, and fore­stalling the order of place, and much more for claiming any prioritie in dignitie, and most of all for inferring any such honour as perfection of regiment: so for the truthe of this proposition, that, The Church of God was perfect in all her regiment, The propo­sitiō vntrue. before there was any Christian Prince: I can not yet sée howe directly it can be iustified. For, if this were true: then there neede no regiment of Christian Princes at all. And howe then haue the Christian Princes anie authoritie at all in Eccl. causes? Or, [...]f they haue anie, howe came they by it: if the Churches regiment were perfect, or the Church perfect in all her regiment, before there were a­nie Christian Prince? The Chur­ches regi­ment bette­red by Chri­stian princes Or whereto serueth the Christian Princes supream authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes, if not to make the regiment of the Church in better estate. For otherwise, the Church were as good with­out it, if she be no better in her Regiment by it, then she was before shée [Page 129] had it. But it is not so: both the church, and her regiment, The Chur­ches regi­ment. &c. is bettered by it. Which your selues are faine in part to confesse, euen heere in the con­clussion of your argument: saying of God who hath most mercifully and wisely so established the same ( to wit, the churches regiment) that as with the comfortable aide of christian Magistrates, it may singulerlie prosper and flourish &c. And againe, for the church craueth helpe, & defence of christian Princes, The healps, that Our Bretheren graunt, the Churche re­ceyveth by the Christiā Prince. to continue and go fore-ward more peace­ablye and profi [...]ablye, to the setting vp of the kingdome of Christ. Al­though héere ye will affoorde, no more but this: yet, if there were no more, this is inough to ouerthrow your saying, that the church of God was perfect in all her Regiment, before there was any christian prince. For, if this comfortable aide, helpe, and defence, to continue and goe fore­warde, ( in so great matters as) more peaceably and profitably to the set­ting vp of the kingdome of Christe, were taken awaie: then, the church of God, though (I graunt) it may continue, and against the aduersaries thereof preuaile: Yet should she not be perfect in al her Regiment, nee­ding this comfortable ayde, help, and defence of christian Princes. And the setting vp of the kingdome of Christe, shoulde with more trouble and lesse profit, go fore-warde: yea, rather it should go back-warde, and he hindered, though it continue, and not so singulerly flourish and pros­per, but decay.

And is this so smal a matter in your eyes, (brethren) as that it nothing appertained to the Regiment of the church, but that crauing all this of christian princes, and so without them, wanting the same; ye dare so bold­ly auouch, that she is perfect in all her Regiment without it? Doth she craue that she wanteth not? Then is she a wanton. Doeth she want it? Our brethe­ren straye from the question by them s [...]lues pro­pounded. then is she not perfect in all her Regiment? Or doeth it not greatly pertaine vnto her Regiment? Or, doe yee thinke, that this shall salue the matter, because the churche may continue, and againste the aduer­saries thereof preuaile without it? Our question nowe, is not of the substance and beeing of the church, but of the Regiment of it. Neither yet simply of the Regiment: but whether she were perfect in all her Regi­ment, before any christian princes were, or no The church ( I graunt) was then, and shall continue euer, and she had euen then a Regiment al­so. Yea, and that Regiment in soone respectes might be called perfecte for that time, The diffe­ [...]ence of the Churches [...]rfe [...]ion in regiment while there were not such open professed christian princes to be foster fathers, and noursing moothers of the church, as (God bee praysed) now there are. For, concerning the Rectors of the church then, as they were then more perfect and singuler persons: so had they more perfect and singuler extra-ordinary offices, and withall, more excellent giftes to be a­ble to gouerne it the better.

But this argueth so little the churches perfection then in al her Regi­ment [Page 130] ( vnderstanding the same of all her ordinary externall Regiment, The Ana­baptistes arguments confuted. whereupon our question is,) which Regiment shee was not then so perfe­ctly come vnto: that rather their extra-ordinary gifts and offices of Apo­stles, Euangelistes, Prophetes, &c. were added for that time, to supplye & furnish that part of the Regiment thereof, that was afterward to be made more perfect, concerning the ordinary state, by the accesse of the Christian Princes following.

Except therefore our Brethren intende, vtterlie to shake off all Chri­stian Princes, and account their supreame authority in Church causes, if not now to be nought, yet to be nought worth, and altogether vnnecessary to the perfection of the Churches Regiment; how can this be any good ar­gument to infirme it now, because (admitting this also were true) there were no Christiā Princes thē? & what do they inferre here-upō? that there is no more néede héerein of Christian Princes now, then there was then, (presupposing that then héerein there was no néede at all of them,) that were a very suspitious and perrilous conclusion. For, although thē there were the lesse néede of them, because that néede was then other-wise sup­plied: yet, those supplies not continuing: and malice increasing, both of aduersaries without, and of Hipocrites within: and the giftes also that remaine decreasing: there is now farre more neede of the Christian Prin­ces supreame gouernment, The state of the time differing the argument faileth for the regimēt to the perfecting of the Churches Regiment. And so, the state of the time for the regiment of the church differing: the argument of the Regiment, from the time then, to the time now, is defe­ctiue. But if they néeded then héerein, the helpe of christian Princes, as they do nowe, then was not the church perfect in all her Regiment, otherwise, than as it was extraordinarylie supplied, before the christian Princes helpe and comfortable aide, was added. Before which time, those temporary supplies comming to the church: as the Manna and other ex­traordinary helpes, made the Iewes estate to flourish, prosper, and goe fore-ward in the Desertes, though they ceased when they came to the land of promise: So, the church might bee said to bee perfecte in al her Regi­ment, meaning that Regiment which was fittest for the state of her aff [...]i­ction and trauelles then: bicause she had such extraordi [...]ry helpes. But this is no diminishing of that perfection ( if it may so be called) that is re­quisite to the ordinary regiment of the Church, vnder the Supreame Go­uernment of Christian princes, albeit the offices and giftes of Apostles, Euangelists, Difference of peculiar regiment for a special time & or­dinary regiment to cō ­tinue. Prophets, &c. are ceased, nor to be expected, nor reuoked.

Nowe then, as the proposition, (admitting there were no christian princes) is not true, in affirming that the church of God was perfecte in all her regiment, before there was any Christian prince: vnlesse wee vn­derstand that perfection of all her Regiment, which was appropriate to her, by the extra-ordinary prerogatiue, of that particuler age, and peculier [Page 131] state thereof, & not extending it to all her ordinary Regiment that shoulde perpetuallie continue: So is this proposition likewise moste vntrue, in this other parte, that there was not any christian prince then.

Albeit this also be no good argument: there were no christian princes then: Or, they were not reckoned among the Gouernours of the church then? therefore they are not to be reckoned among the gouernours of the Church nowe. Neyther this argument The Apostle Rom. 12.1. Cor: 12. and Ephes. 4. reckoneth vp onely in the church these 4. Pastors, Tea­chers, Gouernours, and Deacons, as the perpetual offices, by whiche the Church of God may, according to his worde, be directed in all mat­ters, which are commonly called Ecclesiastical: therefore Christian prin­ces ( as not mentioned) haue not to deale in the regiment of the same. It is not meete our Brethrē shoulde vse the same Argum▪ that the Ana-Baptists do [...] against Princes.

Which kinde of argumentes, I am the sorier that these our Brethren, in the earnestnesse of their zeale, should vse: bicause, as Gellius Snecanus Phrysius noteth (from whome our Brethren séeme to take manye thinges in this their Learned discourse) all these reasons that our Brethren heere vse, are the very plaine reasons of the Anabaptistes, against christiā Ma­gistrates. Whose heresie sith our Brethren do vtterly detest: I would haue them vtterly detest, & in any case not to vse their reasons, whichis nothing but to bolden & strengthen the Heritikes, & to breed suspition to thēselues.

Snecanus de Magistratu pag. 637. alleadgeth the Anabaptistes obiection, Gellius Snecanus de Magistratu. saying: Hucque trahunt quod Ephes. 4. &c. And to this they drawe, that (Ephes. 4.) the office of a Magistrate is not to be reckoned vp among the functions of the church. Whereunto he aunswereth in the nexte page, Quòd autem, Ephes. 4. But as for that, Ephesians. 4. S. Paule doth not men­tion the office of a Magistrate; that is to bee supplyed out of other pla­ces, to witte, Rom. 12. & 1. Corinth. 12. Whereas Rulings, and go­uernmentes are reckoned vp, among the giftes of the church, and kinds of vocations: as is aboue declared. Otherwise many things ordeyned in the church to edification, should be condemned. Yea, euen as the A­postle Rom. 13. properlie treating of the ciuill Magistrates, mentioneth not the Bishops: so it is no maruell that Paule heere passeth ouer the mē ­tion of the Magistrate: Namelye, when heere hee reckoneth not vp the kinds of al offices, but specially and properly the functions onelie of the Ministers of the word. Whereby not onely we see, that this argument is the very argument of the Anabaptistes, and therefore not to be vsed of our Bretheren: but also that those places, Romaines 12.. & 1. Cor. 12. ci­ted also by these our Brethren: where-as they vnderstande the woordes of the Apostle, Rulers and Gouernours, onely for their supposed Seniors and thirde sorte of Tetrarks: those wordes are as-well to bee vnderstoode of Christian Magistrates. Yea, if those wordes of Rulers and Gouer­nours shoulde not bee so vnderstoode, to witte, for Christian Magi­strates: [Page 132] many thinges ordeyned in the church to aedification, shoulde be condemned: those wordes therefore being thus vnderstood: both such ordinaunces in the Church ordeined by Christian Magistrats, are not to be condemned: and Christian Magistrates haue power to ordaine suche things. And the argument that our brethren héere vse, that th [...]re were n [...] Christian Princes, at that time, is also con [...]uted.

But this is handled by Gellius more at large, pag. 555. To this pur­pose ( saith he) serueth the likenesse and conueniencie of the Ciuill Ma­gistrate, The Ciuill Magistrate hath euer from the beginning bin ioyned with the Eccl. mi­nistery. and the Ecclesiasticall Ministery, which fighte not one with the other; but from the beginning haue alwayes beene most neerely ioyned together, although the proprieties of them both, in the Church are di­stinguished. Euen as it is manifest by the example of Moyses and A [...] ­ron. This order was distinctly obserued in the Church of GOD, in the time of godly King Iosaphat. 2. Chron. 19. Which thing of all other, is most euidentlie declared in the new Testament: Mat. 22. Where Christe saith, Giue vnto Caesar that that is Caesars, and to God, that that is Gods. Where-upon it is manifest, that God is no lesse the authour of the order of Magistracy among the faithfull, Rom. 13. then hee is of the order of the Churches offices, Ephes. 4. ver. 11. These things dot [...] Paule most effectually confirme, The Testi­monies Rom 12. & 1. Cor. 12. for Ru­lers, serue as­wel to the Magist. as to the Eccl. go­uernours. while Rom. 12. ver. 8. and 1. Cor. 12. v. 28. he reckoneth vp Rules and Gouernments among the giftes of the Church, and among the offices thereof. For the proprietie of the wordes which the holy Ghoste, both in the Greeke and in the Latine tongue doth vse, not only signifieth especially the censure of the Elder­shippe: but may be also generally stretched to the Rulings and Gouer­nements of all offices, as it is manifest by the declaration & conference of the Scripture.

For, besides the former places, Rom. 12. v. 8. 1. Cor. 12. v. 28. The name of gouernment, Pro. 11, v. 14. is giuen to counsellours. Act. 27. v. 11, and Apocal. 18. v. 17. it is referred vnto Ship-maisters. Ly [...] ­wise also, the name of Ruling is applied in the firste Epistle to Timoth. the 3. chapter, the 4. and 5. verses, to the administration and discipline, that is domesticall. And to these fore-cited places, commeth that, which Paule Rom. 13. v. 1.4. and Tit. 3. ver. 1. doeth expresse in the same wordes, as-well in the Greeke, as in the Latine tongue: the ciuill power and reuengement of the Magistrate against vnrighteous men and male­factors, against whome the Lawe is made. 1. Tim. 1. v 9.10. and the spirituall power and reuengement giuen of the Lorde, to the Apostles, for the edification of the church, against all contumacie: 2. Cor. 10. v. 6.8, and the thirtienth chapter, the tenth verse. For in both places he vseth these woordes, [...] and [...] insinuating by these selfe same woordes, that the distincte proprietie of power and [Page 133] power and reuengement, (both wherby the Magistrate taketh ven­geaunce of the contemner of the Lawes, and wherebye the Churche hath yet in a readines reuengement and power against all contumacy) is of God, and to be reckoned among the offices of the Church. Sithe that therefore, the ordinaunce of the Ciuill power, and of reuenge­ment▪ and the matter and the endes thereof, are no lesse of God, then the spirituall power and reuengement of the Ecclesiasticall ministerye: The ciuill & Eccles. po­wer alwaies ioyned in the Church. & sithe these two distincte functions haue alwayes beene ioyned together in the Church, and the holy Ghost (reckoning vp rulings and gouerne­ments, among the giftes and functions of the Church) doth generally comprehende all kindes of offices: yea, doeth rather expresse both the Ciuill and the Ecclesiasticall power and reuengement by the selfe-same meanes: With what rashnesse would the aduersaries exc [...]ude that from the Church, except they will take this away withall? Besides this, not onely the Scripture calleth the distinct Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall functi­on, by the selfe same names, by reason of the coniunction and vse of them both in the Church: but also calleth the ministers of them both, Guides and Praesidentes. This is manifest, by the conference of the Te­stimonies Mat. 27. ver. 2. Act. 23. ver. 26. Hebr. 13. ver. 7. and 17. & 1. Pet. 2. ver. 14. for in these places the worde [...], is commonly at­tributed as-well to the Ciuill Magistrate, as to the Ministers of the worde. To conclude, when Paule, 1. Cor. 12. v. 10.28. & 29: And 2. Cor. 10. v. 5. &. 6. doth reckon vp powers and reuengement against all contu­macie, lifting vp it selfe against God (wherewith Peter strake down A­nanias and Sapphira, Act. 5. and Paule strake blinde Elymas the Sorcerer) among the giftes and powers of the Church: who woulde exclude the powers of the Magistracie, ordeyned of God for the punishment of e­uil-doers, from his Church? Either of the powers is of God, aswell this ordinary of the Magistrate, as that extra-ordinary: you see the re­uengement of the wicked, to be both waies approued of God, although the properties of the offices & the forme of the reuenging are distingui­shed. It is not to the purpose, whether ye kil with sworde or with worde, (as saith Lactantius:) there is no difference, in the very substance of the reuengement: the end of either power is al one, to wit, the glory of God shyning in the righteous punishment of the euil. Yea, rather, since that tēporary power of punishing the obstinat, hath ceased, after that kings are now made the nourishers & champions of the Church: Therfore the church of Christ hath so much more need of this ordinary power & re­uengement of the Magistrate, wherby the good may be defended, & the euil punished. Lo Christian Reader, the scripture teacheth, that the Ci­uill power hath alwayes beene ioyned with the ministery of the word in the Church.

[Page 134] Thus saith Gellius Snecanus (one of the principal writers at this day, of these our brethren, the Learned Discoursers side.) Wherein we sée, how our brethren runne vpon the same flats, that the Anabaptistes do. Groun­ding themselues (against the Princes supreame authority in Ecclesiasti­call matters) on the very selfe-same reasons, that those Heritikes doe. And the very same reasons, whereby Gellius confuteth the Anabaptistes, doe also directly confute these Learned discoursers. The Anabaptistes say these words, Gouernours and Rulers, Rom. 12. and 1. Cor. 12. are to be vnderstoode onely of Ecclesiasticall Gouernours and Rulers: and doe not our Learned discoursers auouche the same? But Gellius héere verie exactly doth confute it. The Anabaptistes say, that in Christes and in the Apostles time, there was no Christian Magistrate, as Gellius setteth down their obiection, pag. 568. and what doth this differ, from this assertion of these our Learned discoursers: The Church of God was perfect in all her regiment, before there was anie Christian Prince? I doe not speake this, as though these our Learned discoursers did sauour of Anabaptistry, or fauour Anabaptistry wittinglie: God forbid. Howbeit in a heate zeale inconsideratlie, they runne vpon these quick sands. But, Ictus Piscator sa­pir. Gellius who sawe the state endaungered, when this old supposed and new deuised Seniorie, was set vp: and that the Anabaptistes vsed these arguments against the Christian Magistrates; was driuen, not onely to wring these weapons out of their handes, but to breake them in peeces, as naughtie argumentes. And will our brethren now take vp the broken shyuers, and fight with them, to put backe the treatise of the Christian Princes Gouernment?

Let Gellius therefore come foorth, and plainely tell them, that this is no plaine reason to proue their matter by, Gellius confutation of our brethe­rens argu­mentes. but both a friuolous and in­true assertion, that the Church of God was perfect in all her Regiment, before there was any Christian Prince. No, no (brethren saith Gellius) it is nothing so, your saying is not agree-able to good order of teaching The Scripture teacheth, that the Ciuill power hath alwayes beene ioyned with the Ministerie of the worde in the church. If it were al­wayes ioyned, it was ioyned euen then, when our brethren auouche it was not onely disioyned: but that the one was perfecte, when the other was not at all.

But because this Gellius, a Phrysian in the Lowe Countries, is one of the chiefest writers of our brethrens side, in those reformed Churches, of whome our Discoursers willed vs before, to embrace that moste bew­tifull order of Ecclesiasticall Regiment, which God so manifestlie doth blesse and prosper in our neighbours handes; and heere they remem­ber vs againe, that the Church of God doth stande at this day, in moste blessed estate, where the Ciuil Magist. are not the greatest fauorers: [Page 135] it is good therefore, that our brethren should see, both howe they are trou­bled with Anabaptistes, among these our neighbours, where this order of Ecclesiasticall Regiment, so much extolled by our brethren, is set vp: And to see the iudgementes of our brethrens best fauorites, and most ex­perienced in these matters, how cleane contrary it is, to these our learned, Our neigh­bours state commen­ded before so much by our brethe­ren, see how it is trobled with the A­nabaptists. ( but not experienced,) discoursers iudgements.

Whereby our learned brethren may learne, not onely to make better reasons, but much better, and with more reason. to waxe wiser héerein, with this Gellius, and rather vse their reasons to beat downe the Anabap­tistes: then to vse, such as the Anabaptistes vse, to beat back the christian Princes. And good brethren marke the reasons of this Gellius well, and ye shall finde them fully to aunswere your reasons in this matter. Gellius still procéeding against the Anabaptistes, beateth especially on these points that, the Churche and the faithe, of the olde and new Testament, is but one and the same. pag. 559. That there is one and the same doctrine of both the couenaunts: aswell concerning the article of Magistrates, and controuersie of punishing the euill, or vse of the sworde; as concerning the morall workes of Gods Lawe. pag. 560. Whereupon hee discour­seth by particuler collations of the olde and new Testament: how, not on­lie God in them both, is shewed to be the authour of the Magistrate, but how the like thinges are required of the Magistrate in both estates: howe both Testamentes direct the Magistrate to one ende: howe both Testa­ments giue Magistrates like authority in punishment: how all manner of persons, aswell Ecclesiasticall as Ciuill, were and are subiecte to the Prince in both estates: and how euen from the beginning of the world, al­wayes the Magistrates authoritie was, to sée, that the Lawe of God be in all points maintayned: which authority is not diminished by Christe, no not one iote. pag. 562,

After the proues of all this, hee concludeth thus in the 565. page. Non ergo noua, &c. Therefore, there is no new and diuerse doctrine deliuered of Christ: but the doctrine of either Testament is one and the same, a­greeing with the Lawe of nature, engrauen in Adam euen in his creatiō, and at length set forth in the Tables of the tenne commaundementes. Yea, let the aduersaries shewe, that Christ hath taught any thing, which is not extant, either in expresse wordes, or in consequence of the Scrip­ture, in the old Testament: not in respect of all things done, but as per­tayning to this controuersie, and to the rule of life: and we, will yeeld. The extra-ordinarye examples of Moyses, Elias, &c. and other peculier doings of God, as was that also of Peter, Act. 5. and the chaunge of the circumstances of the policy of Moyses, do not preiudice the general law of God.

There is therefore no difference betweene the faithful of the olde [Page 136] and new testament, Christian Princes frō the begin­ning. so farre forth as appertayneth to the reason of iu­stifying, and of living, saue that, certaine in these last daies, beeing lo­uers of them-selues, glorious, and prowde, 2. Tim. 3. Dispise Abraham and other godlie men in respect of them-selues; as though (to saye no worse of them) they were but rude children. The state of the old Testament and new all one.

And so Gellius knits vp all this point out of S. Paule 1. Cor. 10. from the examples of punishment then, to be admonitions to vs nowe, saying: Thou seest heere (Gentle Reader) that, either the punishment of the e­uill is not together with the policye of Moyses abrogated, but abideth perpetuallie: Or else these examples of punishmentes for our admoni­tion, are of Paule naughtily applied: especiallye when the same were not immediatlie of God inflicted vpon the Israelites: but by Moses, as ech-one of them are read of, in their places. To the which purpose, are to be applyed the examples of Gods vengeaunce against Ananias and Sapphyra: Act. 5. and Elymas the sorcerer, Act. 14. which, although they be extra-ordinary, yet they teach, that God also in the newe Testament, would haue sinnes punished with bodily punishment.

Of the extraordinary power of punishing where they wanted the ordinary.Thus doth Gellius shew, that, as the state of the Magistrate [...]till remay­ned one in all times, before the comming of Christ, and after perpetually: so, euen at that time when the Apostles liued, they extraordinarily did ex­ercise an extraordinary supply of the Magistrats authority for punishing. And S. Paule brought in the examples of the Israelites punishments infli­cted by Moses extraordinarily, to the Corinthians in those dayes, when the chiefe and ordinary Magistrates, ouer them, were not Christian prin­ces.

Héere upon Gellius proceeding to especiall arguments, among other commeth to the Anabaptistes obiection, of this selfe-same reason that our brethren in this Learned discourse doe vrge: That the Church of God was perfect in all her regiment, before there was any Christian prince, saying: pag. 568.

The Ana­baptists ob­iection.But they obiect, that in the time of Christe, and of Paule, there was no Christian Magistrate, Ergo: &c.

I aunswere. The authoritie of the Magistrate is not therefore weake­ned, albeit in the time of Christe and of Paule, Emperours and Kings set in high estate, were aliens from the faith. For, the higher power tooke not then her, beginning from the vnbeleeuing Gentiles vnder the newe Testament or in the time of Paule: but euen from the verie beginning of the worlde it was ordained of God himselfe, and appro­ued of Christ and his Apostles: as appeareth by that aboue declared. Yea indeed, where Paule doth say, the powers are ordeyned of GOD; hee not onelie respecteth the Magistrates of the Gentiles in his tyme: (as most of all the first institutiō of God:) in the Church of the Patriarks [Page 137] and the Israelites: expresly signifying, Christian Princes in the Apost. times. that one and the same ordinance is yet ratified vnder the newe Testament, and that God is aswel the Lord of the Gentiles as of the Iewes. Neither yet to this daye are the people of all the worlde lesse gouerned of him, than in times paste Israel was. For, the foundation of the ordinaunce of God beeing layde, The vntruth of our bre­threns asse [...] tion that there were no Magist. in Christs & his Apostles times. Rom. 13. the vse of the same, is withall established.

Moreouer, heere lurketh a fallacion, whereby, vnder pretence of part, the whole is denied. For it is false that no godly persons or such as feared God, did execute the office of a Magistrate in the new testament, as by the example of the Centurion, &c. wee may heereafter perceaue. Besides this, the aduersaries heere do stumble at that fallacie, whereby they snatch at the causes which are accidentall, One & the same ordi­naunce in both Testa. for Magist. for those that are ne­cessarie: and whereby, for the vices of men, seruing the Prince of dark­nesse in the time of Paule, they condemne the thing ordeyned, which is good and holie. Might not by the same reason, all honest kindes of life be condemned? yea, the Magistracie in the Church of Israell, for cer­taine wicked Kings whom God would haue reign, to punish the sinnes of his people, might be improued in the godlye Kings that followed. We must therefore of necessity distinguishe the matter it selfe from the persons. The fallatiō and the aunswer the reto Norsubtilly confounde the good ordinaunce of God with the infidel men, that executed the office of the Magistrat in Paules time. The power both of the old & new Testament, is one and the same: which, as it dependeth not on the dignity of men, but on the highest: Sap. 6. v. 4. Rom. 13. so, it is not vitiated by their indignity, or by circumstances of time and places. Moreouer those things, that are separated in time, are not by and by in the matter it selfe, and in the nature of their definition diuerse. Many things may be done agreable to Gods word, whereof no examples in Paules time are extant. Otherwise the credit and authoritye of the New Test. should be weakened, because the new Test. was not yet set downe in writing in Paules time. Yea, it had not bene lawful to haue translated the scripture in the mother tongue. Besides, that Paule accor­ding to the letter, maketh no expresse mētion of Schooles, &c. Also, the common aduersaries do not yet baptise the infants, of the faithfull. And manie that yet are louers of them-selues, but without charity, & notre­garders of their bounden dutie, wil not keepe the night watch, with the residue of the Citizens: who will therefore auowe that they ought not to do these things? we must distinguish the Law it selfe, from the factes of mē, neither is iudgement made of the whole, vnder pretēce of the part.

If againe they demaunde, how the wicked Magistrate, such a one as in the old time Nabuchadnezar was: and as there was at Rome, in the time of Paule: may be called the good ordinaunce and minister of God: Or how the giftes of the holie Ghoste, as the care of Peace, of honestye, of [Page 238] godlinesse, can haue place in them: I aunswere, we must distinguish the matter by it selfe, from the person: and the lawfull from the vnlawfull vse. For, the vices of the men are not to be imputed to the order. More­ouer, the giftes of God are diuerse, of the which, some are common, as­well to the euill, as to the good: as miracles, Matth 7. externall peace, fertilitie, &c. For God suffereth his Sunne to arise, both vpon the good and vpon the euil. And heereunto Mariage and Magistracie may be re­ferred. The substance of which things by it self, (as the good ordinance of God, Distincti­on between the ordi­nance of God & the vice of men) we must distinguish frō the vice of mē. The question betwixt our aduersaries and vs, is not of the persons, or of the abuse of the Ma­gistracie: but of the very matter it self. Which as it is not vitiated by the impietie of the Gentiles in Paules time: so, most commodiouslye may it, and ought, to bee administred of a Christian. To conclude, it ma­keth nothing for the aduersaries, nor hindreth the godly which execute the office of a Magistrate, that Nebuchadnezer is called the seruaunt of god. Hier. 25. For, albeit the euill Magistrate also be of god (in respect of the Diuine ordinaunce) notwithstanding, the malice of man is not therefore to be imputed to the order it selfe. But of necessity, we must distinguish the persons, from the offices instituted of god. Heere, the aduersaries stumble on the fallacion of composition, and on the fallaci­on of the accident: (as also in that sentence Rom. 13.) wherby they confound the persons of the wicked & their vices, with the ordinaunce of god. Nebuchadnezar is not absolutely called the Seruaunt of god, but in a certaine respect, to wit, of the iudgement of god, as it were a scourge, wherewith the sinnes of the Israelites were visited. But Paule calleth the Magistrate, the minister of god simplie. Yea, he calleth him also a good ordinaunce.

Moreouer, if Nebuchadnezar, and the heathen Magistrate, bee called the seruaunt and Minister of god, to whome the godly were compel­led to obey: much more therfore, euen by the comparison of the lesse to the greater, the godly, executing the office of a Magistrate, are GODS Ministers, to whome we owe obedience, according to Paule, 1. Tim. 6 ves. 1.2. would god all would heere marke the venome of the olde ser­pent, howe much more wee encline rather to rule, and to abuse the Christian liberty, than to obey. Last of all, Nebuchadnezar is not repre­hended in the Scripture, in respect of his Magistracy, but in respecte of his malice. &c.

The necessi­tie of a Ma­gist [...]ate among Ch [...]stians.Lo, (gentle Reader) out of these thinges, one of these two followeth of necessity: either there ought to be a Magistrate among the Christians, and that they may administer their Magistracie: Or els Paule did amisse in writing to the Romaines of the matter. Whether of these 2. shall wee beleeue? The Apostle saith, the Magistracie is of God: the aduersa­ries [Page 139] denie, that a Christian may execute this ordinaunce of god. Is it not lawfull for a Christian to be of god? Yea, to bee good, and to bee gods Minister? See, whyther pertinacy, and partialitie will carry men a­waie. The aduersaries exclude Christian Princes, that fauour not Ana­baptistry, from saluation: when they them-selues are not afrayed, to exercise among themselues, the office of a Magistrate, and to ioyne it with Faith. Did not god commit vnto Moyses, and to Esdras (as to the Politique Magistrate) the Libell of Diuorcement, and matrimoniall controuersies to bee decided? Wherefore, doe you take vppon you the separation of those that are maried, for the cause of Fornication, and and of departure made from the infidels: yea, and that also, the iudge­ment of Ciuill controuersies among your selues: sithe that these things (according to your saying) haue no place in the Church of Christe, nor can stande together with Faith? Trulie one of these twaine followeth of necessitie heere-upon: either the office of the Magistrate ought to haue place among them, (as the onely Christians:) or else they thruste their sickle into an-others haruest, and arrogate to them-selues, that, that properlie belongeth to the Magistrate.

Lo, (gentle Reader) thou seest the aduersaries, contrary to their own doctrine, turne indeede the office of the Magistrate, to their own commendation, which in Christian Princes they discommend. As though that were lawfull for them, whiche vnto other were not lawe­full. Not that the thing is diuerse, but because the men are diuerse. Markest thou not heere in the aduersaries the venome of the olde ser­pent, and the seditious spirit of the Iudaicall Rebellion, howe it encli­neth more to Ruling, than to obeying? God requireth men, that are valiaunt, fearing God, louers of the truth and of righteousnesse, which hate filthie lucre, and are prudent, to be the ministers of God. Exod. 18. ver. 21. Deut. 1. ver. 13. & 2. Chr. 19. Psal. 2. v. 10. &c. also Rom. 13 v. 4. Whether of these men are the fitter to execute these properties of Magistrates: those that are straungers from Christe and from his church, as the Iebusits & Cananites (to whom the aduersaries compare at this day the Magistrate:) or those that are true Christians and beleuers?

Paule Rom. 13. & 1. Peter. 2. do concordantly teach, that the Magist. is Gods minister, ordeyned for the praise of those, that do wel: and for the punishment of those that do ill. To this accordeth Paule 1. Tim. 2. teaching that we must pray for all manner persons, placed in highe au­thority, that we may lead a quiet and honest life, with all godlines. Out of which places conferred together, we see in breefe the Magistrates of­fice is to minister vnto god: the parts of whose Ministery, consiste gene­rally in the custody of both the Tables of the tenne Commaundements, and first in the care of Religion.

[Page 140]Heereupon the volume of the Lawe is commended vnto the King. Deut 17. and the execution, against the despisers of religion. Heere­unto appertaine the examples of Moses, Dauid, Iosue, Ezechias, &c. and 1. Tim. 2. godlinesse properly respecteth the worship of God: and then in maintaining the publike peace, as-well in defending the good, as in punishing the euill: and thirdlie, in honesty of life, whereby euerie one performes his dutie, 1. Tim. 2. These finall causes therefore of instituting the Magistrate being set downe: A Church without magistracy ne­uer seene. with what boldnesse take they awaye the vse thereof, out of the Church of Christ? Or els, doe they dreame of such a Church, as no man hath euer seene? And if the office of the Christian Magistrate, and custodie of the tenne commaundementes were taken awaie: What I pray you would remaine in the worlde, but meere Libertinisme, and a licentiousnesse of all mischiefes? If the ad­uersaries were not blinded in their owne selfe-loue and boldnesse: they would easily learne this, not onelie in them-selues, but also in the exam­ples of the faithful, both of the olde and newe testament. For if the godly haue no manner of neede at all of the Magistrate: Why doeth Moyses complaine of the Israelites (who did eate of the same spirituall meate, and drinke of the same spirituall drinke that we do) Howe can I labour alone, The godlye haue neede of the Mag▪ and beare your burthen and contentions? Why were striuings and contentions among the faithfull Corinthians? Doe our aduersaries (holier then they) want Darnel and euill doers?

But if they obiect, that albeit these things may be graunted, concer­ning the latter table of the Lawe: yet the former table properlie respect­eth conscience and faith, ouer which the Magistrate hath no power, but God alone.

I aunswere: the aduersaries are heere deceaued, and do deceaue: in that they exclude out of the former Table of the Law, outwarde Idola­try, and prophanation of the name of GOD, and of the Saboth, and the punishment of these things. Sith that this former table of the Law, comprehendeth in one and the same nature of definition, not only the inwarde worship of faith, and the Idolatrie contrary thereunto: but al­so the outwarde workes and punishments of them both. As, when the Magistrate punisheth periury: God testifieth, that he accurseth the soule that reuerenceth not his name. But the Magistrate when hee punisheth, properly respecteth the outwarde woorke, although hee be not able to change the minde. Rather no common­wealth without a chri­stian Magi­strate then a Magist ex­cluded, &c.

These thinges orderly considered: it were rather to bee wished, that there were no common-wealth without a true Christian Magistrate: thē that the same should bee excluded from the Church of God. For, who is able better to fulfil the conditions of a Magistrate, before already no­ted, or the office and endes pertayning to him, then is a Christian? In­somuch [Page 141] that if we shall iudge aright of the giftes of God, we muste con­fesse that it is a mighty benefite of God, when he giueth a godly and a Christian Magistrate vnto his Church. Is it not lawfull for a Christian to be of GOD, and to administer the Ordinaunce of God? Is it not lawfull for a faithfull person to defende the godlie, to punishe the euill, to exercise iustice, to defende the Widowes, and the Father-lesse, and to be the Minister of God? Rom. 13. Is it not lawful for a Christian, to preserue the publike tranquillitie, with all godlinesse and honesty? 1. Tim. 2. By these works God is glorified. And the Prophetes and A­postles exhort the faithfull thereunto. Therefore, the Christian Magi­strates office beeing taken away, all the former vertues are taken awaye with-all.

With what rashnesse therefore (O man) darest thou exclude the Ma­gistrate from God, by reason of the vse of the sworde, whome Paule e­uen for the same reason calleth Gods Minister? Yea, when Paule sayeth, Wilt thou not feare the power? do well. He signifieth that it is a mani­fest testification of an euill conscience, to dispise the Magistrate. Christe and the Apostles acknowledged the Heathen Magistrate to be Gods or­dinaunce, and gaue honour vnto him. It is maruell therefore, that the aduersaries will not admit, that a Christian may exercise that diuine or­dinaunce. Especially, seeing that Paule wished after holy Iudges, & pre­ferreth them before Infidels: Yea, and expreslye teacheth, that the Saints shall iudge the world. 1. Cor. 6. ver. 1.2. Heer-unto serueth that that Paule 1. Tim. 6. ver. 1.2. saith: Let seruaunts: whosoeuer bee vnder the yoke, esteeme their Maisters worthy of al honour, & those that haue faithfull Maisters, let them not despise them, in that they bee their bre­thren: but so much the rather serue them, because they are faithful and beloued. These things teach, and exhort saith the Apostle. Woulde to God, and aduersaries would teach also those that are theirs, in like man­ner, and enforce these things with exhortations. If Christe and his A­postles yeelded thus muche vnto an Heathen Magistrate: howe muche more is due vnto a Christian Magistrate? If the ende of the Magistrate bee, to haue the care of Religion, and to defende good men: with what reason do the aduersaries exclude the Magistrate from the proprietie of Religion, and of good? If they describe the office of the Magistrate, onely by Politique constitutions: I pray you, what difference make they betwene the Turkish, and the Christian Magistrate? The Magist. office neces­sary to the Church. If the office of the Magistrate be not necessary to the Church: Why did Paule and Peter write of that matter to the faithfull, that were subiect to the discipline of Christ.

Wherefore had the aduersaries rather, to dispise rule and to rayle on dignities, by comparing them vnto Iebusits, &c. according to the Apo­stles [Page 142] prophecie of the last dayes, 2. Pet. 2. ver 10. then to follow the wi [...] of God. 1. Pet. 2. ver. 15, &c. And by well dooing to bridle the igno­rance of madde men, and to honour the King? With what boldnes call they Magistrates, murtherers: because they kill homicides, and the transgressors of the Lawe? Which (Magistrates) the holie Ghost calleth Gods, and the Ministers of God. Psal. 82. Ioh. 10. Rom. 13.

No man in very deede will denie, but that al men (none excepted) are subiecte vnto their ordinary Magistrates, and may be compelled to ren­der vnto them, that they owe them. &c. Rom. 13. ver. 1. &c. If obedi­ence be godlie: the vse of the sworde is also godly. These things of ne­cessity followe one another mutually: to be subiect to the Magistrate, and render that we owe them; doe generally comprehende all thinges, without the which, the sworde of the Magistrate, by it selfe alone, can­not be borne. It followeth therefore, that the subiectes owe obedience in the vse of the sword vnto the Magistrate, to defend the good, and pu­nish the euill, and that for conscience. See, the aduersaries make a mat­ter of conscience, to obey the Magistrat in punishing the euil: But Paule saith, wee ought to doe the same, euen for conscience. Vnto whome a­greeth Peter, saying: for the Lorde, or for the Lords will. Lo, whether of these shall we beleeue: the holy Ghost speaking by the Apostles, or the aduersaries?

If anie man shall say, we must more obey God, than man: Paule an­swereth: the Magistrate, and the vse of the sworde, for the punishment of Malefactors, is the ordinaunce of God: and there-fore heere, we owe obedience not to man, but vnto God him-selfe. Furthermore, no man can serue two Maisters, Certaine of the Proph. & Apostles exercised also, the of­fice of the Magistrate. Mat. 6. Neither God at anie tyme hath commā ­ded, that we should obey wicked constitutions: but all the godly of the olde and newe Testament: the Prophetes, Christe, & the Apostles, haue not onely serued God and the Magistrate both together: but certaine al­so of them haue exercised the office of the Magistrate. Heb. 11. &c. Wherupon most forcibly it followeth, that to be a Christian: or to serue and to exercise the office of a Magistrate, and to punish the euill, are not contrary, neyther fight with the faith in Christ, but rather are ordeined one vnder the other, which may both without any damage to Christian godlinesse, consist together in one man. And this is euident (among o­ther, Why, God distingui­shed these Offices. by the examples of Melchisedech, Heli, and Samuel: who were Priestes and Magistrates both at once. Yea, God did not distinguishe those two offices, for that they fought one with an-other, but that one man was scarse sufficient to exercise both, &c.

Al this and much more writeth this Gellius Phrysius, in his aunswere to the Anabaptistes obiection, who made this one of the cheefest of their argumentes, that in Christes and Paules time, there were no Christian [Page 143] Magistrates. Neither do I set downe all this, as though these writers of this Learned discourse were so farre gone, as these Anabaptistes, to denie that there ought to be any Christian Princes: But rather to giue them warning to take the greater héed, that they come not too néere them, either in whole or in parte: nor strengthen their errour, and weaken the Princes state, and bréede themselues suspition: by vsing the selfe-same argumentes, that they vse. It is an olde saying, He that will no euill do: Must do nothing that longes therto.

For, if they doe, loe héere, how (wee neede not) one of the chiefeste of their owne side, among these our neighbours, whom they before so highly commended vnto vs, will not spare to set againste these our Brethren also. Neither yet doeth Gellius Snecanus Phrysius ende this matter thus, but (as it were) sets afresh againe, vpon this proposition, that the Church of GOD was perfect in all her Regiment, before there was anie Christian Prince. To improue this further, Snecanus doeth enter into the fowrthe parte of his treatise againste the Anabaptistes, saying. Pag. 599.

It nowe remayneth, that hauing opened the fore-said rules of the Scripture (taken from God, the onelie authour of the Magistrate in both the Testamentes: from the agreable proposition of the Ciuill and spiri­tual power in the Church; frō the Church and the doctrine being one in both the Testa. and from the examples of punishments declared by Paule for our admonition: and also from the definition, nature, The exāple of Christian Magistrats, in Christs & the Apost. times. or pro­prietie and final causes of the Magistrate, and the office of the subiects: & at the length from the special sentences of Christ and his Apostles) we should nowe set downe vnder these thinges certaine liuely examples, that that which is in sentences set before the minde, maye in a certayne manner be euidentlie layde before the senses, by examples. Firste, thou hearest Mat. 8. That the Centurion at one and the same tyme together, was both a Minister of the military affayres of the Romaynes, and had so great faith, as Christ at that time founde not in Israell. Ver. 9.10. Also Ioseph of Arimathia is called a disciple of Iesus, who looked for the kingdome of God, who was also a Senator (exercising iudgement a­gainst the wicked, and those that were guilty of death, as appeareth by that, that the Scripture mentioneth, and excepteth him, that he consen­ted not to the death of Christe) beeing a good and a righteous man, Mat. 27.57. Mar. 15.43. Luc. 23.50. &c.

Moreouer, Theophilus vnto whome Luke dedicateth his Gospell, was a Prince and gouernour of some certaine Region, as it appeareth by the propertie of the Epithete; The most excellent: which is a title agre­able to men that are Princes. For, Acts 23. ver. 26. it is attributed vnto Felix. And in the 26. chapter likewise, the 25. verse. vnto Festus, [Page 144] eyther of them beeing the Ruler of Iudaea, &c.

Furthermore, Nichodemus one of the chiefe Rulers of the Iewes, in­structed by Christ him-selfe in the Faithe: Io. 3. remayned in his vocati­on and his Magistracy, as appeareth Io. 7 v. 50. Neither did he for the same cause forsake Christe; as it is euident, by his officiousnesse of Christs buriall. Io. 19. ver. 39. Besides this▪ in that royall Courtier Ioan. 4. cō ­uerted by Christ vnto the Faith. And in the E [...]muche that was the chiefe gouernour of Candaces Queene of the Aethiopians, Act. 8. baptized by Phillip. And also in the Pro-consull Sergias Paulus, Act. 13. &c. Also Cornelius. Act. 10. ver. 1. &c. who also is called a Centurion, and a godlie man, and one that feared God: who also continually prayed to GOD, which coulde not be done without Faith in the Messias, (except a man will absurdly say, that all before the time of Christe were witho [...]t faith, when as this man especially is called, one purified of God, and accepta­ble vnto him, ver. 15. and 35. &c.

Heere I passe in silence the example of the chiefe rulers of Asia: F [...]r, who will affirme, that they being the friendes of Paule, were without the knowledge of Christ? Act. 19. ver. 30 &c. To these aboue named, com­meth the example of Erastus the procurator of the citie. Rom. 16. ver. 25. Exercising the office of a Magistrate, and reckoned by the holy Ghoste, among the Faithful. Yea, and the example also of the Saints who were of the house of Caesar, Phil. 4. v. 22, &c.

Thus we se most euidentlie, euen by the testimony at large of this one man, as one of the principall of their owne side, (to presse them with [...] more) how this reason that heere these Learned discoursers stand so much vpon, that the churche of God was perfecte in all her Regiment, before there was any christian Prince, is not only one of the principallest reasons of y ^e Anabaptistes, ( whom they, I hope, no lesse than we detest) albeit i [...] this affectionate zeale, they do in so many pointes as wee may héereby [...] ­ther, euen in a manner iutte with them (though vnawars) to ius [...]le at the authority of Christian Princes: but also how weake and of no force at all this their reason is. And with what a multitude of far better reasons, yea, as the Apostle saith, with a cloude of witnesses, it is beaten downe. And that, (which is most of all to be respected) how greatly they ouershoot thē ­selues in the truth thereof. Our Brethe­rens excep­tion of Em­perours. Neither doth it auaile them to say, that none of these were Emperours: For, it euicteth the cause sufficientlie, th [...] they were Princes, or at leaste, anie kinde of Magistrates. If they re­plye, that yet they did exercise no authority & gouernment in the church but liued as priuate persons among the Christians: albeit this is also the refuge of the Anabaptistes; y [...]t howe can this be prooued? Which if it were true, might make indéede, not colour, but grounde of reason for the Anabaptistes.

[Page 145] But as those Princes▪ were conuerted vnto Christianitie: Christia [...] Princes frō the begin­ning. So (no doubt) they reteyned their estates still, and the Christians so acknowledged and called them, as before. And if they submitted themselues before to their authoritie, while those Princes were Infidels: shal we thinke, that eyther the Princes did not much more thinke thēselues bounden to ouersée (so far as their abilitie stretched,) all the thrée especiall points of their charge, The Magist. lost no au­thoritie by professing Christianity. in the maintenance of both the Tables of Gods Law, Peace, honestie, and godlinesse, to be maintayned among the Christians: or that the Christian subiectes did not nowe much more honour them, obey them, & commit the Gouernment of their controuersies to them, when after they remayned among them being Christians, and retayned still their Gouernments be­ing Princes? But Gellius also saith somewhat hereunto, Page 634. More­ouer they obiecte that Paule 1. Cor. 6. Forbad the faithfull, that they should not hale one another, before the iudgment seates of the vnfaith­full. I answere, Paule did not absolutely, and by it selfe, condemne here the iudgements ordained of God. Deut. 16. & 17. sithe Paule himselfe without any reuenging of himself, appealed to the iudgement of Caesar. Nether forbiddeth he those things to the Christians in generall, Actes. 25. but re­prehendeth the Corinthians, in respect of circumstances, & of their vi­ces. As those, who prosecuted the extreme rigour of the law against their neighbor, & that before infidel Iudges. Yea rather, they thēselues enda­maged their brother. Whom notwithstanding, he did not by & by ther­fore excōmunicate; much lesse did he disallow the function of the Magi­strate, in respect of it selfe, or denied that it might be administred of the Christians: but rather contrariwise, permitted vnto them Arbiters and Iudges, & wished that the Magistrate were a christiā, in that he requireth holy Iudges. And this he clearely setteth out by a comparison from the more, to the lesse, affirming that the Saintes shall Iudge the world, yea and the Angels. Lo (Christian Reader) here the controuersie is most e­uidently decided. The aduersaries require an vniust, and Infidell Magi­strate. Paule would haue a Saint, and a beleeuing person, to be appoin­ted. If Paule permitted Arbiters to be chosen out of the faithfull, in de­ciding controuersies among the brethren, and saith that those, (al-be­it the basest of the faithfull.) are fitter than the infidell Iudges: howe much more then are the greatest faithfull ones, & wise ones, fit persons to be set in the publike Iudgement seates. Besides, that the Apostle ex­pressely vnder-hand, setts out a shew, wherein, whensoeuer better times should shine vpon them, those Iudgement seates should be brought in­to a more happie order, and more holy Iudges should be ordayned. The Ch. Re­gim. more happy, where Christ. Prin­ces are. For what-soeuer is graunted to an vnfaithfull: can much lesse be denied to a faithfull person. Howsoeuer it be, Paule wisheth not (as doe the ad­uersaries) Infidell, but holie and faithfull Iudges. Yea, except the Iudge [Page 146] be holie, he can scarse with good conscience before God, be a Iudge. Here-unto we may applie, that S. Paule wisheth Kinge Agrippa to be a Christian. Whereby wee perceaue, that wheresoeuer anie of these Christian Princes were at that time among the Christians, they had no finall authoritie, in decision of such controuersies as rose among them. Neither onely in titles of lande, breaches of peace, ciuill cases, and other worldly matters: but also in matters pertayning to the Regiment of the Churche and Ecclesiasticall: as were the matters, for the which Saint Paule so often pleaded against the Iewes, euen before suche Iudges as were not Christian. And al-be-it, Actes 18. When Paule was accused before Gallio by the, Iewes, saying: This fellowe perswadeth men to worshippe God contrarie to the lawe; as Paule was about to open his mouthe, Gallio sayde vnto the Iewes: If it be a matter of wronge, or an euill deede (O yee Iewes) I would according to reason maintayne you. But if it be a question of wordes, and names, and of your lawe: looke ye to it your selues, for I will be no Iudge of these thinges: Yet Paule, when he came before Felix, and he also woulde heare the plea betwéene his aduersaries and him, Actes 24. After that the Gouernours had beckned vnto him, that he should speake, hee aunswered: I doe the more gladlie aunswere for my selfe, for as much as I knowe, that thou hast beene of manie yeares a Iudge vnto this Nation, perhapps thinking that in all that time, hee might (as Cornelius and others) haue attayned to the knowledge of God, and so béene the fitter Iudge of these matters.

And although he was but a corrupt Iudge, both in affection and religi­on, and Festus also that succéeded him: yea, Nero the Emperour was worst of all: yet, because he occupied the roome of him, that should haue béene a better, yea, the highest Iudge in earth vnto him, albeit Paul were himselfe an Ecclesiastical person, & an Apostle and one of the chiefest pil­lers in the Church of God: yet he appealed euen to Neroes Iudgement seate. And when Festus brought him foorth, to pleade before Agrippa, he so reioyced of it, that he sayth, Act. 26. I thinke my selfe happie (King Agrippa,) because I shall aunswere this daye before thee, of all the thinges whereof I am accused of the Iewes. Chiefely, because thou hast knowledge of all customes and questions, which are among the Iewes. Wherefore, I beseech thee, heare me patiently, and when he was euen in the chiefest pointe of his plea, concerning the resurrection of Iesus Christe, ver. 24: As he aunswered thus for himselfe, Festus ( who had little skill of those matters) sayde with a loude voyce: Paule, thou art besides thy selfe, much learning doeth make thee madde. But he sayde, I am not madde (O noble Festus) but I speake the wordes of truth and sobernesse. For the king knoweth of these thinges, before whom also I speake boldely, for I am perswaded, that none of these thinges are hidd from him. For this thing was not done in a corner. O King Agrippa, be­leeuest [Page 147] thou the Prophets? I knowe that thou beleeuest. The Chur­ches state. Then Agrippa sayde vnto Paule: almost thou perswadest mee to become a Christian. Then Paule saide, I would to God, that not only thou: but also all that heare me to day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bondes. So that, if Paule did thus submit him-selfe vnto them, in the decision of these Ecclesiasticall controuersies, hoping they had béene more faithful Iudges thē they were; did not other Christians to other Prin­ces that were indéede Christian Princes, submit themselues also, to the de­cision of such their Ecclesiasticall controuersies, arising among them? And though S. Paule missed in the person, yet he wished those persons, to haue béene such, as he hoped, and as they ought to haue béene. But (as Gellius saith) if they were not such, yet this expressely insinuateth a shewe vnto vs, of those better Iudges that should come after, and better employ those places y ^t they abused. So that, although no Prince had béen good or Christi­an at those dayes: yet this argument had not béen good nor Christian. And there being (no doubt) euen at that time, some, (if not many) it is not on­ly no good argument, but an vntrue, and wrong assertion to ground vpon, that the Church of God was perfect in al her regiment, before there was any Christian Prince.

But would God, these our brethren would haue made the matter no worse against Christian Princes, then that they had not yet béene come in­to the Church of God. But it followeth at the harde héeles, with so hoate a pursute, euen to the estate at this day, saying: yea the Church of God may stande and doth stande at this day, in most blessed estate, where the ciuill Magistrates are not the greatest fauourers.

What haue we here? O Lorde, Our bretherens harde speeches of Christian Princes. who would haue looked for such spéeches at the handes of our brethren, & in so Learned a discourse of the Churches gouernment? Yet was it much better sayde before, speaking of the state thereof in the Apostles times: that the Church of God was perfect in all her Regiment before there was anie Christian Prince For that might yet haue béene restrayned to that time, Paules wish of Christian Princes. considering the speciall preroga­tiues, of that age, to haue supplied the want of Christian Princes. Not­withstanding it was not euen then so perfect, but that S. Paule wished the Regiment thereof to haue béene better. And that better euen by chri­stian Princes. Else, had hee neuer had such troubles, nor néeded to haue wished, that Agrippa, Festus, Bernice, &c. had béene Christians: nor haue appealed vnto Nero, nor haue had such hinderaunces in his functi­on. But when these our bretheren, thinking to haue carried this cleare awaye, will nowe make a generall rule thereon, that the Churche may stande perfecte still in all her Regiment, and that in most blessed state, with-out anie Christian Princes: then GOD helpe poore Christian Princes. For, being suche poore helpes vnto [Page 148] the Regiment of the Church, they may bee as well spared, or wished [...] ­way (which the Anabaptists wish them) as to be wished for, which S. Paul did wish them; saue for the Princes saluation of their owne soules, in which respect, they are not Christian Princes. Nay, if this were true: whie may they not as well with the verie Anabaptistes, set downe this rule to, that the Churche of God may stande, and doth stand, better without them? For, howsoeuer they séeme here to allure the reader, with these godly ti­tles, The Chur­ches perfection and most blessed state. of the Churche of God, of perfection in all her regiment, and that she standeth at this day in most blessed estate, where Christian Princes are not at all, and the ciuill Magistrates are not the greatest fauourers▪ yet dare we not ascribe these titles of perfection in all her Regiment, and of most blessed state vnto the Church of God, being militant and trauel­ling still vnder imperfection. But we acknowledge (as S. Paule sayeth 1. Cor. 13.) that we knowe imperfectly, and we teache imperfectly, but when that which is perfect shall come, then that which is imperfect shall be done away. And then shall come indéede the most blessed estate of the Churches per­fection in all her regiment. But if it be nowe alreadie, and that where no Christian Princes are, or where the Ciuill Magistrates are not the greatest fauourers; then whereto serue the Christian Princes, and the Ciuill Magistrates, to fauour the Gospel, but rather to hinder the perfecti­on of the Church in all regiment, and to cause it not to be in most blessed estate? For where any Christian Princes are; yea, the greatest fauourers of the Church of God that euer were: it could neuer yet aspire heereto. But where they were not, and are not, there these Learned discoursers tell vs, that the Church of God was perfect in all her Regiment, and standes in such estate as is most blessed. But where was this perfectiō in all the Regiment of it, before Christian Princes? And where standeth & yet at this day in most blessed estate, where the ciuill Magistrates are not the greatest fauourers? May not the places be named, that we might view thē? Must we runne to Vtopia for to séeke them out? Where was this? in Sodome and Gomorra, vnder Chedor-laomer, & where the ciuill Magi­strates, nor al the people, were any great fauourers of the Church of god? Where Lot being righteous, 2. Pat. 2. and dwelling among thē, in seeing & hearing thē, they vexed his righteous soule frō day to day with their vnlaw­full deedes? Was he & his family in most or more blessed estate, or the Church of God there, better gouerned, then in Salē, vnder Melchizedeck, or then in the Pilgrimage it made vnder Abraham? Was the Church of God better vnder Pharao, The Church in better state vnder Christian Princes, thē, &c. then vnder Moses? vnder the tyrants that op­pressed thē, then vnder the Iudges that deliuered thē? Was the Churches gouernment better vnder Saul, then vnder Dauid? vnder Ieroboam, A­chab, Manasses, & other Idolatrous Princes: then vnder Salomō, Iosaphat Iosias, Ezechias, & other godly Princes? & is it more perfect in all her regi­ment, [Page 149] and standeth in more blessed estate at this day, vnder the great Turke in Europe, vnder the Sophie in Asia, vnder the great Chan in India, where also great partes of the Church are dispersed: then vnder godly Christian Princes in Englande, Germanie, Scotlande, Denmarke, Suecia, Polonia, Hungarie, and all other places where Christianitie is openly professed at this day? Is the regiment of the Church of God better, To great vn­thankfulnes towards her Maiestie. & in more bles­sed estate in Italie vnder the Popes tyrannie, or in France, in Spaine, in Flaunders, &c. where the Christian Princes are not the greatest fauou­rers of the light of the Gospell, then here in England, where her Maiestie fauoureth the same so tenderly, and hath ventered her state & life so often for it? O vnthankefulnesse O blind: (what should I call it?) Malice? No, but selfe willed opinion, y ^e, to deface the good estate of the Church of God, wherin we are (vnder such a right Defender of the faith) defended & sheil­ded from all our enemies, in a farre more blessed estate then we deserue; will make such an odious comparison, as this is. But, as the old saying is, itch and ease, can no man please. But if the Church be so imperfect in all her regiment vnder our most gratious and true Christian Prince here in England, if our estate be so disordered and so little blessed, in comparison of theirs at this day, where the Ciuill Magistrates are not the greatest fa­uourers: why do not these Learned discoursers take their course thether, where the Church is so perfect in all her regiment, euen as they would haue it, & in most blessed estate that they can wish it? If this be a matter of such moment & necessitie, as they would beare vs in hande, why go they not thether, where they say it is euen at this day? & they may goe thether when they will. No, I warrant you, they wil none of it on that price: but will tarrie here stil, & trouble their brethren, though they haue it not. No, no, whatsoeuer is pretended, to get that they would haue: if they can-not haue it, they haue learned this (or they may easily doe, if they trie experi­ence) that it is good kéeping themselues wel, when they are well. And welfare a good Christian Prince, that fauors the Church of God and the Gos­pell of Iesus Christ, when all is done.

But what meane they by these glaunces, that the Church of God doth stande at this day in most blessed estate, where the Ciuill Magistrates are not the greatest fauourers? Do they meane by ciuill Magistrates, as they did before, where they sayd, Whatsoeuer it please the Ciuill Magistrate to call or account indifferent? &c. Referring this terme to our most graci­ous Prince & Soueraigne? But I thinke they do not meane so, for as they speak more at large, saying, Where the ciuil Magistrates are not the grea­test fauourers, noting many, or more then one, & some other estates, which they cōpare with ours: so they here giue thē an harder title, to be not the greatest fauourers, then that (I hope) they will say, Her Maiest. fauour of the Gospell▪ they implie our gra­tious Soueraigne in that tearme. If then they meane, that we liue vnder [Page 150] such a blessed Prince, as fauoureth the Gospell: doe these men speake it in good sooth (as indéede sooth it is) or doe they Iest, or speake it but for fa­shion sake? But howe-soeuer they séeme to glaunce hereat, (for they nei­ther say it in expresse wordes, but as it were by comparison, doe séeme to inferre as much, in telling vs of other places in the worlde, where the Princes are not the greatest fauourers) notwithstanding they tell vs nei­ther what thing it is, whereof they are not the greatest fauourers. But I ghesse, that in this their Rhetoricall breuitie, they meane that they fa­uour not the Gospell, or the Church of God. For it séemeth, they re­ferre it not to this Regiment, that themselues fauour and desire. For so, they knowe, that her Maiestie being also not the greatest fauourer of their desired Regiment: they might conclude, that the Churche of Eng­lande, which they crie out of to bee in a state disordered, should bée in that most blessed estate which they desire. They séeme therefore to meane this, that her Maiestie is indéede a fouourer of the Gospell, or Church of God, and yet the state of the Churche of God, ( vnder Her Maiestie) is in an vnperfect, lesse blessed, and more disordered estate, than it is, where the Princes are not the greatest fauourers of the Church of God, and of his Gospell. Which if it be their meaning, (as I woulde be loath to gather of their wordes anie thing beyonde their meaning,) so I had rather they expounded themselues, or that their wordes néeded not an expositer, as well many times, as an aunswere. Nowe then, if their meaning be thus, that her Maiestie is a fauourer of the Gospell, and of the Church of God, although this in some sense, may séeme but a colde and sclender commendation bestowed on her Maiestie, to bee but a fa­uourer; as though thee liked well ynough thereof, and liked of others that professed it, but her selfe were not so zealous a professour, and louer of the Gospell: yet construyng all this to the best interpretation of her fauour thereunto, that her Maiestie is a great fauourer of the Gospell of God and of his Church: howe then doth shee so highlie fauour the same, and yet not suffer the Church of God, to be so perfecte in all her Regiment, as where no Christian, but Heathen Princes are? and not to be in so blessed estate, as it is vnder those Ciuill Magistrates, that are not the greatest fauourers? Meaning indéede (vnder a gentle name for reuerence sake) are no fauourers at all, but so much as they can, hate and persecute the Gospell and Church of God: How her Maiestie vn­der pretence of commen­dation is discommēded. and yet (will they, nill they) suffer it more to florishe herein, than her Maiestie doeth, béeing so great a fauourer of the same. What a foule rebuke, (vnder pretence of commendation) is this to her Maiestie? Yea, what a kinde of fauouring call ye this, when the not fauouring of the enemie, is better for the Re­giment of the Church, than the fauourers loue? Indéede, accidentalli [...] thinges may fall out so cleane contrarie, (as he that thought to kill his [Page 151] enemie, did him more good in thrusting him thorough, The primi­tiue state. and opening that impostume settered within him, then all his friendes and Phisitions that could not helpe him. But what gra-mercie was that to him? Whereas di­rectly of it selfe, is not this threatned of God, that he will take awaye a good Prince in his wrath, and giue an euill Prince, to punishe the wicked­nesse of his people? and doeth not God promise, Good Princes a great blessing▪ &c. ill Prince [...] a great curse of God. Isai. 49.23. as a great blessing to his Church, that Kinges should be the foster fathers, and Queenes should be the noursing mothers thereof? But by these men, they had a better Regiment, when they had Pharao to nourse them, with drowning of the infantes in the water, and oppressing their parentes on the lande: and when Herode bathed the infantes in their owne bloud. Did GOD meane, they shoulde haue suche Pappe with an Hatchet, and that Princes should be nourses on that fashion? Or did hee rather meane, that when he would sende such Princes as should fauour his Gospel and his Church, euen as the good nource comforteth and guideth well the childe, and is as it were an-other Parent to it, vnder whom the childe battelleth, and is well brought vppe; so next vnder GOD our heauenly Father wée should be nourished, fed, comforted, defended, and guided, till we growe to our perfect age in Iesu Christe, vnder the godlie Gouernement of our Christian Princes.

And is this, that is promised for so great a blessing, turned to a curse? And the curse turned to so great a blessing? God is able indéede, to turne all thinges to good. God had his Church still, euen in the most dreadfull persecutions that euer were, How God can turne his curse to a blessing. and the gold is siner that is tryed in the for­nace seuen times. So that this redoundeth in the end, both to the greater glorie of God, and to the better confirmation of his Church. But what can we conclude hereon? That the Church, when such hauocke is made in the congregation, and it is dispersed here and there: is then more perfect in al her Regiment, and in most blessed state? S. Paule saith, Rom. 5. Where sinne abounded, grace did more abound. But what? shall we say then, ( saieth S. Paule, Rom. 6.) Shall we continue still in sinne, that grace may abound? God forbid. And in those dayes of more iniquitie abounding, in the time of planting amonge the Gentiles, the faith and Gospell of Iesus Christe: the most parte of the Gentiles raged, and the people imagined vaine thinges: the kinges of the earth assembled, and the rulers came together against the Lorde, and against his Christe. Al-be-it, the faith tooke roo­ting amonge some, both Princes and people. And GOD in that extraordinarie time, dealt extraordinarilie with them, both with ex­traordinarie gifts and extraordinarie offices. Whereby he so helped and beautified that Primitiue estate of the Churche of Christe, among all those troubles, persecutions & dissipations; y ^t the Church séemed rather to flourish thē to be oppressed, & to be In most blessed estate in some respects, [Page 152] when in other respectes, it was in most pitifull estate, as S. Paule sayth, 2. Cor. 6. of Gods helpe at such times: For he sayth, I haue heard thee in a time accepted, How the Primitiue state was blessed and yet piti­full. and in the day of saluation, haue I succoured thee. Behold now the accepted time: behold nowe the day of saluation. We giue no occasion of offence in anie thing, that our ministerie should not be reprehended: but in all thinges wee approue our selues as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in ne­cessities, in distresses, in stripes, in prisons, in tumults, in labours. By watchings, by fastinges, by purenesse, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindnesse, by the holie Ghost, by loue vnfeined, by the worde of truthe, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousnesse on the right hande and on the left, by honour, and dishonour, by euill report, and good report, as deceauers, and yet true: as vnknowen, and yet knowen: as dying, and yet behold we liue: as chastened, and yet not killed: as sorow­ing, and yet alwayes reioysing: as poore, and yet [...]aking many riche: as hauing no­thing, and yet possessing all thinges. The state of the primitiue Church stri­uing thus against all these temptations and calamities, but by the grace and power of God surmounting them: in this respect was in more blessed state, then when afterwarde enioying peace and prosperitie, and abusing the same, contentions and other corruptions arose thereuppon, in which respect the state was not so blessed.

Is therefore persecution and al these troubles, better for the regiment of the Church of God, then peace & prosperitie? Yea, was not that re­giment that the Church had then, abused also, in those that had the gift of tongues, the gift of healing, & the gift of prophecieng? Which gifts not only many among the Corinthians, did abuse? but also there were mani [...] false Apostles, many [...]uill Pastors, many Teachers of false doctrine, & some Deacons not all the best. And (no doubt) their Segniories were as much corrupted as the residue, if they had anie suche standing officers amonge them, as these Discourses doe conceaue, and as wherein they saye, the Churches regimēt most consisted, with the Pastors, Teachers, & the Dea­cons. So that the Churche of God, no, not at y ^e time; no, not in that regi­ment that she was gouerned by; was then so perfect in al her regiment▪ nor in most blessed estate; for all that the Apostles were then liuing, and for all the extraordinarie giftes and offices, that then she had.

No such Eccl. Gouernours in the Apostles times as our Brethren pret [...]nd. And may we thinke, if there had bin such Gouernours among them at that time, that eyther they (if they had not thēselues béene infected) would not haue reformed so manie foule abuses? Or did not their authoritie stretch so farre? Or would not the residue be rather ruled by such gouer­nors among themselues, then to trouble and endanger themselues being Christians, before Infidell Iudges? Or if they had had any such gouernors among them, would not S. Paul ( chiding thē for going to lawe before in­fidell Iudges) not rather haue exhorted, yea charged them, to haue referre [...] those matters to the Segniorie & Gouernors, y ^e he had appointed ouer thée [Page 153] If he had appointed any, hauing builded so great and famous a Churche of God among them, continuing at Corinthus a yeare and a halfe togi­ther: or to those that they had chosen among themselues to be their Go­uernours, if that were the onelie order of the Churches regiment, then, and of such importance and necessitie? Or how chance, Saint Paule find­ing these inconueniences (in his absence from them) to haue fallen out, (perhaps bicause there wanted such Gouernours among them) dooth not will them (among so many precepts, perteyning to the regiment of the churche) in one place or an other of both his Epistles, to chose and ordeine such Gouernours ouer them? Or, mencioning Gouernours, What the Gouernour [...] were men­tioned 1. Cor. 12. and other giftes and offices, 1. Cor. 12. Would not say, these Gouernours, are those Seniors, that either ye haue, to direct these matters by: or at least, if yée haue them not, ye ought to haue them? But as though, they neither had anie suche, nor vrging them to haue any such Consistorie of Gouernours ouer them, speaking of their hauing busines one against another, he saith vnto them, 1. Cor. 6. Doo ye not know, that the Saints shall iudge the world? If the world then shall-be iudged by you, are ye vnworthie to iudge the smallest mat­ters? Know ye not that we shall iudge the Angels? How much more, 1. Cor. 6. things that perteine to this life? If then, ye haue iudgement of things pertaining to this life: set vp them which are least esteemed in the churche. I speake it to your shame. Is it so that there is not a wiseman among you, no, not one that can iudge betweene his bretheren? By which wordes it appeareth, that, not onelie in those mat­ters, (whatsoeuer they were) but that also in other matters perteining to the regiment of the churche, being matters perteining to this life, they had no such Consistories of Iudges or Gouernours among them. Nor S. Paule enforceth any such vpon them: but onelie to haue some one or other wise and godlie man, to be chosen among themselues (and that al­so without any preiudice to the authoritie of the gouernement then esta­blished) to bee their Gouernour. For, they being without a Christian Prince, to be their Gouernour, and being at that time also giuen to such corruptions and contentions: either they must go before Infidels, or bréed a confusion among themselues. So necessarie at all times is it to haue a Gouernour, that euen the primitiue Churche could not be without hir Gouernours. And yet neither the thing that S. Paule persuades them to, (being one of the greatest Christian churches in those daies) was to set vp a Consistorie among them, but some one Gouernour. Neither the matter that he diswades them from, is anye other thing more, The Corin­thians had no ordina­rie consisto­rie of eccle. Gouernors among thē. then for bringing their brethren and causes before Infidell Iudges. So that, this is not to be stretched beyond the state of the Corinthians then, nor any rule prescri­bed to any particular churche of GOD now, liuing vnder a prince or Iudge that is a Christian: That anye churche may, (otherwise then by waye of priuate arbitrement, as charitable, neighborlie, and blessed peace [Page 154] makers) take authoritie to elect or ordeine hereby among themselues, any one or other publike Iudge or Gouernour, and much lesse elect among them-selues, and set vp a Segniorie or Consistorie of Gouernours, in matters perteining to this life, as are all indifferent matters, perteining to the Ecclesiasticall regiment of the Churche: but that, when any con­trouersie ariseth about them in the churche, ( if they be not alreadie pre­scribed in Gods word) we must all, after all our deliberations on them, bring them to the finall determination, and disposition of the godlie christian Princes iudgement and censure, how they shall be vsed of the subiects. And thus maye we kéepe anye other good order of Iudges and iudgements, We hauing Christian Princes, are not bound to such Iud­ges as the Corinth. did choose. euen as well in ecclesiasticall as ciuill controuersies, accor­ding to the gouernement alreadie established, with out any more néed [...] of reuiuing those consistories whatsoeuer, that were then in any christi­an churche vsed, than of reuiuing this constitution of S. Paule for Iudges. For, although S. Paule gaue such a prescription of Iudges to them, in the wante of other Christian Gouernours: yet we that haue now Christian Princes, and Christian Iudges, and I hope godlie and righteous Iudges also, are not bound to chose Iudges in our owne Parishes. If we could in­déed take vp manie néedlesse controuersies among our selues at home: it were well doone, and would saue much trauell, veration, and expenses, and perhaps the Iudges might be eased to. But if we should therevpon make a rule, and say that we must néeds haue Iudges at home in our se­uerall Congregations, bicause S. Paule prescribed the Corinthians so to haue: and that all such publike Iudges to serue a whole realme or coun­trie, were not lawfull or were néedlesse, bicause, in the Primitiue Church they had no suche publike Christian Iudges for a whole realme or coun­trie: The danger of imita­ting the Primitiue Churches regiment heere in. might not this growe to the manifest iniurie not onelie of th [...] Iudges, but of all the whole common-weale? Yea, might not the Christi­an Prince feare, that by the same rule, (if it were true that ye saye, there was no Christian Prince then, when the Churche was perfect in all her regiment) he might be driuen cleane out of his ciuill regiment too, and out of all, not supreame onelie, but anye authoritie at all, among the Christi­ans, and cleane dispossessed of his kingdome, except he would content him­selfe, to be a Iudge chosen in one particuler citie? So that, neither inheri­tance, nor a whole Realme or Realmes, to bee ruled by anye one christian Prince, could hold any plea, if such rules might be coined on such examples.

And then forsoothe, the churche of GOD, as, before there was anye christian Prince: so after, they are all thrust out, or reduced to that state that they were in, might be saide to be perfect in all hir regiment, once againe. And that the Churche of God may stande and dooth stande in moste blessed state, where the ciuill Magistrates are not the greatest fa­uourers, nor beare the greatest rule, but all is brought againe to the e­state it was in before, in the Apostles time, Doo ye not sée, what a most [Page 155] blessed estate the churche of God would come vnto, by this rule? Caution in muta­tion. And I pray you (bretheren) what warrant haue you more, or so muche, for the prescription of your Seniorie in euerie congregation, as is héere prescri­bed by S. Paule, for the choosing of this Iudge or ruler, among the perticu­ler congregations of the christians? We must take héed therfore, Cautiō in imitating examples, or prescri­bing vpon particuler rules. how we stand on such examples, or how we enlarge any rule, that was particuler to the time, or state then, or to the place or persons there, to be-come an ordinarie, generall, absolute, or perpetuall rule to vs, and to the whole Churche, whether it be by S. Paule, or by S. Peter, or by any, or by all the Apostles, or by our Lorde and Sauiour Iesus Christe him-selfe, prac­tised, yea, or commanded. For diuerse examples and commandements were but for certeine times, states, & places, and stretch no further. As the Disciples, to carrie neither golde, nor siluer, nor money, nor scrippe, nor two coates, nor shooes, nor staffe, Matth. 10. To abstaine from things offered to Idols, and from bloud, and from that that is strangled, Acts. 15. And that men should praye bare headed, &c. 1. Cor. 11. And albeit, that in the commandements and rules prescribed of these things, and of the like, neither Christe nor his Apostles tell, that they were to continue, but for a time: yet leueling the same by the analogie of our faithe, and by the proportion of our Christian libertie; we find no such necessitie in these thinges, nor of any other such like orders, as in the regiment of the Primi­tiue churche was vsed. For though they were vsed as orders, or as orna­naments, to beautifie the blessed estate of the Churches regiment then: yet neither the blessednes, nor the estate therof, consisted in them, when they had them. And if any church that now flourisheth haue any of them, it is neuer the more blessed for them, as of anye necessitie to the estate thereof. And if any haue them not, and haue other good orders of regiment established among them, it is neuer the lesse blessed of God, for the not hauing of them. If they haue what is necessarie: that sufficeth. Prooue either this Seniorie to be necessarie for vs imagining there had béene any such: or els all this most blessed estate, resolues to nothing.

But neither of these is yet prooued, nor (I feare mee) euer will bee: that there were any such Gouernours at all: A Confisto. of Ecclesi. Seniors not necessarie▪ but Magi­strates ne­cessarie. or that we are bound in eue­rie particuler congregation, to obeye, or to haue suche a Segniorie. But we are bound to haue, and to obeye in all lawfull ordinances, our Prin­ces and Magistrates: especiallie being Christians, and fauourers, and fosterers of the Churche of God, defenders of the faithe, setters foorth and professors of the Gospell. Where suche Princes are, (as wee muste néedes confesse we haue, except we be too vnthankefull) there indéed the Churche of GOD may stand, and standeth at this day, in farre more blessed state, with-out this Segniorie, then where this Segniorie stand­eth, and the Ciuill Magistrates are not the greatest fauourers: or [Page 256] to speake plaine English, Whereon the chur­ches gouer. depends. are no fauourers at all, but haters and persecuters of the Gospell.

And thus wee sée, how weake and vntrue, both these propositions of these reasons are, by the which as a notable great reason, in the end scars [...] woorth a little currane, these our Learned Discoursers auouched, that, it might be to euerie man so plaine, that it was neither needfull nor a­greeable to good order of teaching, to begin first to treate of the su­preame authoritie of Christian princes in ecclesiasticall causes. Now, a [...] we thus haue séene the valor and truthe of these two propositions, where­on their reason is made: so let vs sée their conclusion of this reason. Their conclusion is this: By which it is manifest, that the regiment and gouern­ment thereof, dependeth not vpon the authoritie of princes, but vpon the ordinance of God: who hath most mercifullie and wiselie so establi­shed the same, that as with the comfortable aide of christian Magistrats, it may singulerlie flourish and prosper: so without it, it may continue, and against the aduersaries thereof preuaile. For the churche craueth helpe and defence of Christian princes, to continue and go forward more peaceablie and profitablie, to the setting vp of the kingdome of Christe: but all her authoritie she receaueth immediatlie of God.

Is this then the conclusion of their reason? What is this to the pre­sent question: The conclu­sion of our breth. argu­mēt against the [...]irste treatie of the Prince. Or how hangeth this vpon the premisses? Maye not th [...] princes supreame authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes be first treated vp­on, except this must streight be concluded on it, by which it is manifest that the regiment and gouernment of the churche dependeth not vp­on the authoritie of princes, but vpon the ordinance of God? Where­fore is this so farre fetched conclusion brought in héere? Before, you sai [...] it seemeth, ( not yet telling to whome) but now it seemeth, that it seemeth so to you, The depen­dance of the churches gouernmēt. and that for a manifest and plaine conclusion, that if the princes supreame authoritie be first spoken of, then all the churches regiment dependeth on it. But I cannot tell how it seemeth to you, to be a mani­fest and plaine consequence: I promise you, it séemeth not so to me. Nor (I thinke) to any man, that will way the reason with any reason. And yet you threape such kindnesse on vs (that are, God be thanked, reasonable creatures also) that it now goeth beyond it seemeth: for it is manifest. Whereas indéed, not onelie it seemeth, but is manifest, to be a manifest violent, and extorted conclusion. Yea, a manifest iniurie both to God, to his churche, and to all the authoritie of all godlie Christian Princes, and most manifest wrong vnto her Maiestie. Dooth her Maiestie in claiming the supreame authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes, in that portion of the churche of God committed to her Maiesties gouernement, or in not yéel­ding to this your desired regiment, claime this, that the regiment and go­uernement of the churche, dependeth vpon her authoritie? And if ye [Page 157] say ye meane not her Maiestie, but speake still vpon Princes at large: though ye mend not the matter, but make it worse, yet would to God ye would once name soone, to put the matter out of all suspition, and let them beare the blame, that claime such highe authoritie and absolute power, that all the regiment of the Churche dependeth thereon. No, I am sure ye can name no godlie Prince that dooth so. And yet sée, not onelie how ye make this a manifest conclusion, but how to aggrauate the matter, and make it more odious, ye conclude it also with an opposition, betwéene the Princes authoritie and Gods ordinance: saying, by which it is mani­fest, that the regiment and gouernement thereof, dependeth not vpon the authoritie of Princes, but vpon the ordinance of God. As though the Princes authoritie, were not also the ordinance of God. As the A­postle expresselie saith, Rom. 13. Let euerie soule be subiect to the higher pow­ers, for there is no power but of God. And the powers that be, are ordeined of God. Whosoeuer therefore resisteth, resisteth the ordinance of God.