The Reconciliation.

1. FIrst, what difference I pray you, to say God himselfe is a witnesse to vs, and the spirit of God is a witnesse (for this is one excep­tion which the libeller taketh) is not the spirit of God, God? And think you, that when Bel­larmine said, God himselfe is witnesse, he exclu­ded the spirit? As though the inspiration, in­terpretation, protection and preseruation of the Scriptures be not the worke of the spirit of God? 2. Timoth. 3. 16. 2. Pet. 1. 21.

Yea but Bellarmine saith in another sense, that God is a witnesse, not by the inward te­stimony of his spirit, but by defending the scrip­ture from humane profanation by heauenly pu­nishment. Libel. pag. 154.

Cont. 1. Is this a good consequent I pray you? God beareth witnesse to the Scripture [Page 56] sometime by taking vengeance: Ergo, not by the inward testimonie of his spirit. Sir Sophi­ster, if your Logicke had not here failed you, you would not haue made so slender a colle­ction: for whereas Bellarmine maketh the great number of miracles the fift witnesse; doth not the Scripture say, Hebr. 2. 3. God bearing witnesse thereto with signes and wonders and di­uers miracles? God then is not a witnesse one­ly by punishments, but by signes and mi­racles.

2. Bellarmine himselfe saith afterward in the same chapter: Non omnes per internum af­flatum Deus docet, &c. sed per corporales literas, quas legeremus & cerneremus, erudire nos vo­luit: God teacheth not all by inward inspi­ration, &c. but by corporall letters, which we should reade and see, hee would instruct vs. We also refuse immediate reuelations and inspirations: but God by the lection and in­spection of the Scriptures doth instruct vs. God then doth vse the Scriptures themselues as meanes of this spiritual instruction, which is the inward testimonie of Gods spirit, by our outward reading and hearing of the Scripture, inwardly witnessing the truth thereof vnto vs: how much I pray you differ we now?

3. Whereas Bellarmine maketh these the witnesses of Scripture: first, the trueth of the prophesies: secondly, the agreement of [Page 57] the holie writers: thirdly, God himselfe: fourthly, the perpetuall truth of the Scrip­tures: may it not wel be gathered hereupon, that Bellarmine thinketh, that God inwardly working in our hearts by the Scriptures them­selues, which wee finde to be most perfect, conso­nant, true, doth teach vs which is the word of God: for I pray you, who maketh vs to ac­knowledge the Scriptures, by the truth, har­monie, constancie thereof? doth not the spi­rit of God by these meanes mouing and per­swading the heart? Bellarmine then is not slaundered at all, when it is affirmed, that in this place, he holdeth as wee doe concerning the meanes, how to know the Canonicall Scriptures: for we also teach, that the Scrip­tures by no forren or extrinsecall meanes, but from themselues, the veritie, harmonie, holines thereof, (the spirit of God hereby working in our hearts) are knowne to be the word of God.

2. Secondly, let it be seene whether in a different sense Bellarmine and wee in this place (for I deale no further) doe make the Scriptures witnesses to themselues. These are his words: Fourthly, the Scripture it selfe is witnesse, whose prophesies, if they were true of things to come, why should not the testimonies of things present be true? The Scripture then bea­reth witnesse to it selfe by the constant and perpetuall truth thereof: what other thing [Page 58] doe we say, but that the Scripture from it self doth proue it selfe, by the truth, constancie, maiestie thereof, to be the word of God.

3. Thirdly, Bellarmine maketh here no mention of the Church, among these fiue witnesses: 1. The truth of prophecies. 2. The consent of the holie writers. 3. God himselfe, &c. 4. The Scripture it selfe. 5. Postremò testis est, &c. Lastly is witnesse the infinite number of miracles. Now I pray you (sir Cauiller) is here any mention made of the Church? your dealing is too childish to send vs to other places for Bellarmines iudgemēt: I know him to be elsewhere corrupt enough, I onely vrge his testimonie against himselfe in this place.

4. Fourthly, so is your supposed contra­diction also reconciled: for to say that Bel­larmine in this place, among these fiue wit­nesses, maketh no mention of the Church, and y ^• otherwhere he would haue the Scrip­tures depend vpon the authoritie of the Church, is no contradiction in him that no­teth this diuersitie, but in Bellarmine, that va­rieth from himselfe.

But now somewhat to answere to your blasphemous railings: as pag. 154. God may punish him for such trickes of falsification, ten­ding to the seducing and vtter subuersion of sillie soules, &c. I say rather with S. Paul, God shall smite thee thou painted wall, Act. 23. 3. God wil iudge all such hypocrites in his time, as make [Page 59] no conscience to slaunder and reuile the members of Christ.

And if God doe sometime giue witnesse to the Scriptures, as most true it is, by punish­ing them, that prophane or blaspheme them, then how shall your popish writers escape vnpunished, that haue not been ashamed, thus vnreuerently to speake of the Scrip­tures? Hosius saith it is egenum quoddam ele­mentum, a beggerly element: ex Nicol. Gall. Lodouicus saith, Scriptura est quasi mortuum a­tramentum: The Scripture is as dead inke: Il­lyric. in vorm. concil. The Bishop of Poicters, Scriptura estres inanimis & muta, The Scrip­ture is a dumbe and dead thing: Sleidan. lib. 23. Eckius calleth it, Euangelium nigrum, & Theologiam atramentariam, A blacke Gospel, and inky Diuinitie: Kemnit. pag. 23. Pigghius, Sunt velut nasus cereus, The Scriptures are as a nose of waxe: Hierar: libr. 3. cap. 3. And that the children may fill vp the iniquitie of their fathers, of late this present yeere 1602. in a certaine colloquie at Ratisbone betweene the Diuines of Witemberge, and certaine Ie­suites: one Iacobus Gretserus a Iesuite vttered this horrible blasphemie of the Scriptures: A great blasphemie against the spirit of God and the Scrip­tures. Spiritum sanctum per scripturas loquentem non posse esse indicem controuersiarum: That the spirit of God speaking by the Scripture, can not be iudge of controuersies. And added further: St potest me spiritus sanctus condem­nare [Page 60] per hanc scripturam, age faciat, veniat, & dicat, Iacobe Gretsere tu erras, & statim transi­bo ad scamnum vestrum: If the spirit of God can condemne me by this scripture, goe to, let him come, and say, thou Iacob Gretsere art in an error, and I will straight way go vnto your side: ex Egid. Hunnio. If the Lord were not a most gracious and long suffering God, wee might wonder, how such blasphemers could goe vnpunished. Gods bountifulnes (as the Apostle saith, Rom. 2. 4.) leadeth them to repentance: which God send them, if they be­long vnto him, that they may repent them of their blasphemies toward God, and their slaunders against men: otherwise their iudge­ment sleepeth not, but shall be reuealed in time. For as Ambrose saith: Si pro otioso verbo ratio poscitur, quanto magis pro sermone impieta­tis poena exoluitur: If account shall be ren­dred for an idle word, how much more for wicked speech shall punishment be inflic­ted? Bias said to a certaine lewd man, He fea­red [...]. not least he should not be punished, but least he should not see it. But wee, as we feare their pu­nishment in the end; so wee desire not to see it, but pray for their repentance and amend­ment.

The Reconciliation.

FIrst, here is no contradiction at all, if these words may finde a fauourable interpre­ter: for notwithstanding that diuers decrees were made before to restraine Ministers ma­riage, and some attempted to impose single life, yet till a thousand yeeres after Christ, there was not a generall and constant re­straint of such mariage.

1. Siricius indeede began first to inhibite the mariage of Priests, about anno 428. yet after him succeeded Siluerius sonne of Hor­misda, who was also Bishop of Rome ann. 534 ex Caranz. Concil. summ.

2. Before this in the Nicene Councell they would haue inioyned single life to the Clergie, but that by the wise aduice of Paph­nutius the Synode altred their minds. Sozo­men. lib. 1. c. 11. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 11.

3. Gregorie 1. though at the first hee liked well of single life, yet seeing the inconueni­ence thereof, when in his mote or pond ma­ny [Page 62] childrens heads were found, he then alte­ring his minde, confessed with S. Paul, that it was better to marrie then to burne: ex epistol. Hulderic. ad Nicolaum Papam. This Gregorie Gratian. di­stinct. 56. cap. 2. Caranza. liued anno 603. yet after him anno 636. came Theodorus Bishop of Rome the sonne of Theo­dorus a Bishop: so that wee see that all this while, the restraint of Clergiemens mariage was not receiued generally as a law, necessa­rily to bind, till the time before expressed.

Secondly, whereas the Councell of Neo­cesaria and second of Carthage are obiected, that forbid the mariage of Ministers: I an­swere, that sometime it was decreed against, and sometime decreed with: as Concil. Ancy­ran. can. 10. Gangrens. c. 4. which see at large, Synops. pag. 265. and that all degrees of the Clergie might take them wines, vntill this generall restraint, it is there further declared p. 269. to the which places I referre the Rea­der. Neither neede I to spend much time in [...]ifting the authorities of Councels, hauing to deale with a man vtterly ignorant in them, which receiueth thē but at the second hand: as it may appeare for that, whereas the 37. canon of the Africane Councel, is thus tran­slated: Placuit Episcopos, &c. vxoribus absti­nere: It pleaseth vs, that Bishoppes, Priests, Deacons abstaine from their wiues: he char­geth the translator very simplie and igno­rantly with corruption, because he [...]aith their [Page 63] wiues: for it is euident that this Canon in­ioyneth abstinence from their owne wiues, as it may appeare by the 5. Carthage Coun­cel 3. from whence this Canon is taken word forword, as it is alleaged by Gratian. dist. 85. cap. 4. Cum de quorundam Clericorum quamuis erga vxores proprias incontinentia referatur: For as much as report is made to vs of the incon­tinencie of Clergy men though toward their owne wiues. Then followe the very same words; It pleaseth vs, that Bishops &c. abstaine from their wiues: for whose wiues I pray you doth the Councell meane but their owne?

Thirdly, the Libeller, because Pope Gregorie the 7. is said to be a notable sorcerer and adulte­rer, chargeth him, that so writeth, to be a no­table lier: and further saith, that generallie all the historiographers of that time, did highly commend him: as Anselmus, Maria­nus Scotus, Guitmundus, &c.

Contrà. What two or three which were partially affected to the Pope, might write in Gregorie the 7. no good man. praise of him, it is not much to be weighed: for these three, that are said to witnesse with him (and yet are they but dumbe witnesses, speaking nothing, but onely named) we can produce thrice three, that discommend him. Sabellicus and Blondus doe describe his great in [...]olencie, when he suffered the Emperour in hard frost, with bare legges to waite at his gate three daies, Sab ellic. Enead. 9. lib. 3. Blond. [Page 64] decad. 2. lib. 3. Benno Cardinall saith, he poy­soned sixe Popes, that hee was a Coniurer, a raiser of Diuels, and in his rage cast the Sa­crament into the fire. Anselmus Rid, whom we set against your Anselme, noteth his sedi­tion, saying, that in the time of his Popedome, both the temporall and Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction was shaken and broken, with infinit miseries.

Sigebertus Gemblacens. saith, that he trou­bled the states of Christendome, discharged the subiects from their oth of fealtie: Sigeber. an­no 1074.

Lambertus Scaphnaburg. reporteth, that the Clergie held him to be an heretike, & vesani dogmatis, and of wicked doctrine.

Nauclerus: The Clergie said, that hee had defiled the See Apostolike with Simonie, He­resie, Murder, Adulterie, that he was an Apo­stata: Naucler. general. 26. The Councell of Brixia called him, a disturber of the Empire, a subuerter of the Church: Vrspergens. anno 1082. The Councell of Wormes, that he was spotted with many periuries. Yea, what neede we any other witnesse, when hee confessed to one of his Cardinals in his sicknesse, that he had fouly abused his pastorall office, that hee had troubled mankind with malice and mischiefe by the pro­curement and counsell of the Diuell: Sigebert. anno 1085.

If then a murderer, adulterer, sorcerer, he­retike, Apostata, if a seditious, periured per­son [Page 65] bee a good man, then may you count Pope Hildebrand in the number. Now wee may see how shamelesse these men are, to call so euident an historie a lie: and to count a wicked man holie and blessed, not remem­bring how the Prophet crieth woe against those, that speake good of euill, and euill of good. Esay. 5. 20.

Fourthly, with the like boldnes he calleth that of Gregorie a fabulous tale, that 6000. childrens heads were found in his fishpond or mote, pag. 160. yet it is extant in the epi­stle of Huldericus Bishop of Augusta, sent to Pope Nicolas 2. which epistle is alleaged by Aeneas Syluius, who was afterward Bishop of Rome: in descript. German. The same epistle written in parchment, in an old hand, of good record, Bishop [...]ewel of worthie memo­rie testifieth, that he had seene, defens. Apo­log. pag. 237. and Master Fox also that painfull and godly man saith, he had seene an old co­pie of the said epistle sent by master Bale to the Bishop of Canterburie, Fox pag. 1154. Of the said epistle also Illyric. maketh men­tion, in Catalog. and Melancthon lib. 1. de con­iug. And yet for all this the Libeller would beare vs in hand, that the epistle is forged, and the rest but a tale.

Lastly, that Hildebrand and his fellowe Popes about that time did first make a gene­rall restraint of Priests mariage, when ma­riage began by a publike law to bee restrai­ned, [Page 66] it is euident out of Auentinus: hee con­demned such as were maried for Nicolai­tans, and directed his speciall letters to O. tho Bishop of Constance to separate such as were maried, and forbid the rest to marrie: but that good Bishoppe resisted the Popes proceedings and would not obey. And in the Councell of Brixia this is alleaged as one cause why they deposed Hildsbrand, for that he caused diuorcements and separations a­mongst the maried: ex Vrspergens. To say then, that mariage was first generally inhibi­ted to the Clergie not till a thousand yeeres after Christ, and yet to grant that it might be for sometime restrained before, by particular acts of some persons and places, I hope is no contradiction: What cause then had this cauiller, to follow with open crie, a shamelesse vntruth, lies and mad trickes, when as more truly these opprobries doe rebound vpon his owne head? I may liken him to the Lamia in Plutarch, that is fained to sit blind at home, Libr. de cu­riositat. laying aside her eyes into some corner, and putting of them on againe when she goeth foorth: so plaieth this companion, he is sharp sighted abroad in looking vpon other, and blind in his owne house, he cannot see him­selfe. Hierome could haue told him: Non faci­lis est venia praua dixisse de rectis: It is not a fault easily pardoned to speake euill of the right. Hieron. Asellae.

The Reconciliation.

THe occasion of these words is to be con­sidered, which was to answer Bellarmine and the Rhemists challenge that the authors and beginners of their religion cannot be shewed, as they can produce the authors of ours: whereupon, it is declared out of their Popes decrees, who were the authors of some of their erronious vsages: as Telesphorus, Ca­lixtus, Hyginus brought in Lent, Ember fasts, Chrisme: which is affirmed, not ex sententia scriptoris, of the sentence of the writer, but ex confessione aduersarij, by the confession of the aduersarie: for they themselues doe ascribe the beginning of these vsages to these an­cient Bishops, which their confession, is a good argument against themselues. And that this is the writers meaning, it is euident, by comparing with this place, that which is handled of this matter in Tetrastyl. pill. 1. part. 3. where all these decrees of Telesphorus, [Page 68] Hyginus, Calixtus are prooued to be forged. Telesphorus decree beareth date, when Anto­ninus and Marcus were Consuls, who were neuer together in that office. Hyginus epistles are dated, when Camerinus and Magnus were Consuls, which was neuer. Calixtus 2. epistle cōfuteth the error of Nouatus, that did spring vp long after. Other reasons are there shew­ed, why the decrees which goe vnder their name are thought not to bee theirs: loc. 15. 16. 21.

Thus then is this contradiction healed, that notwithstanding any thing here said: these may be erronious vsages, for all these forged authors: whom although you alleage as patroues of great antiquitie, yet we think your superstitious obseruations are nothing so ancient, and confesse with D. Sutclife: We shall not finde, where the Church of Christ hath enioyned Christians to fast Lent, and Ember daies, and vigils of Saints: which the Libeller noteth pag. 24. as an apparant difference be­tweene that learned writer, and the other whom he impugneth.

I say then to this brabler, as Eudamidas to a certaine Fidler: Magnus delinitor in re exi­gua: [...]. He made a great piece of worke of no­thing. So hath this Carper fidled vnto vs with a lowd sound a matter not worth the whistling: he should haue done much better to haue followed Ambrose counsell; Solliciti [Page 69] esse debemus, ne quid temere vel incuriosè gera­mus, aut quicquam cuius non possimus probabi­lem reddere rationem: actus enim nostri causa, etsi non omnibus redditur, ab omnibus tamen ex­aminatur: We must be carefull, that wee doe nothing rashly or carelesly, whereof wee can not giue a probable reason: the cause of our acts, though it be not rendred to all, yet it is examined of all: lib. offic. 1. cap. 47.

The Reconciliation.

FIrst, whereas Bellarmine saith, that they dissent not among themselues in any ma­teriall points, or such things as appertaine to faith, and it is answered, I marueile he blush­eth not thus to say, himselfe knowing the contra­rie: then it followeth, is it not a substantiall point, &c. Who seeth not that here he appea­leth to Bellarmines knowledge, who doth af­firme elswhere this a thing necessarie to bee knowne, what bookes of Scriptures are ca­nonicall [Page 70] in particular: as libr. 4. de verbo Dei cap. 4. to proue traditions beside Scripture to be necessarie, hee bringeth this argument in the third place: Tertia probatur ex multis, quae ignorari non possunt, & tamen in scripturis non continentur: Thirdly this is proued, because many things, which wee cannot be ignorant of, are not contained in the Scripture. And it followeth afterward: Non satis est scire esse scripturam sanctam, sed oportet scire, quae sit illa: It is not enough to know that there is holie Scripture, but we must know which it is. So How it is necessarie [...] saluation to know the canonicall scriptures. then Bellarmine doth hold it a thing necessa­rie, to know which bookes are Scripture: but therein they disagree among themselues: Er­go, they dissent in necessarie points. So that in saying, is it not a substantiall point, and be­longing to faith to know which bookes are cano­nicall? there is relation to Bellarmines know­ledge and confession: for that which is ne­cessarie to be knowne, is (I thinke) a materiall point, substantiall, and belonging to faith.

Secondly: neither is there any contradic­tion in these words, of themselues: for to know which are the canonicall bookes, may be held to be a substantial point and belong­ing to the faith, and yet not simply necessarie to saluation: he knoweth little if hee cannot distinguish betweene a simple and absolute necessitie, and a necessitie not absolute: as some things are absolutely necessarie to sal­uation, [Page 71] without the which a man cannot be saued: as Hebr. 10. 36. Patientia vobis necessa­ria: Patience is necessarie vnto you, that after ye haue done the will of God, you may receiue the promise. But in another sense the Apostles write, Act. 15. 28. It seemed good, &c. to lay no more burthen vpon you, then these necessarie things: yet was it not simply necessarie to ab­staine from bloud and things strangled, but conuenient, and profitable for that time, be­cause of offence: so to know which bookes are canonicall, though it be not simplie ne­cessarie to saluation, if a man hold the foun­dation: yet is it necessarie, as a profitable meane for the increase of faith: and though it be not so substantiall as the foundation of faith, yet is it substantiall, as many necessarie parts in an house are beside the foundation. I may say now to our cauilling aduersarie, that triumpheth in his contradictions, as Ar­chidamus the Lacedemonian said to his son boldly aduenturing to fight: Aut viribus ad­de, [...]. vel de animi elatione aliquid detrahe: Either put to more strength, or abate of your cou­rage: So seeing the Cauillers obiections are no stronger, hee should doe well not to be so confident. As for my selfe, I say with Hie­rome: Non de aduersario victoriam, sed contra mendacem quaerimus victoriam: I seeke not so much for victorie of an aduersarie, as for the veritie against a lier: Hier. Augustin.

The Reconciliation.

SIr Cauiller, your collection is very weak: May not a man be a profitable instru­ment in Christs Church, though hee holde some erronious opinions? Tertullian fauou­red the heresie of the Montanists in condem­ning of second mariage. Cyprian and Diony­sius Alexandrinus did hold, that they which were baptized of heretikes, should be bapti­zed againe: Hieron. catal. scriptor. Papias, Ire­naeus, Victorinus, Apollinarius, Lactantius, were all Chiliastes: they did hold, that the faith­full shuld raigne with Christ vpon the earth a thousand yeeres after the resurrection.

Many grosse errors are ascribed to Origen, The Fa­thers profi­table in­struments notwith­standing some errors as that he should hold that in the end the di­uels should be saued: that men were elected according to the merits of their soules, in a former life, before they came into their bo­dies: that the torments of hell consist onely in the conscience of sinne: that there was [Page 73] another world before this: that Christ for the saluation of Diuels should suffer in the ayre, &c. These and many such grosse opi­nions Hierome ascribeth to Origen. ad Aui­tum, whether they be true or false of him, it is now impertinent to dispute.

Few of the Fathers beside can be named, but they had their speciall errors: will you therefore conclude (Sir Sophister) that these learned Fathers were not excellent instru­ments in their times? For notwithstanding Luther might in some things bee deceiued, (whose opinions I will neither now iustifie nor impleade, but onely touch your contra­diction) yet was he a very excellent and pro­fitable member of Christs Church.

But whereas you scornefully come in with your, what if, as though master Fox were be­lied, or that Master Fox played some craftie tricke: and you will giue more credit to Rof­fensis, and Bellarmine for reporting of Luthers opinion? Here whether you shew more igno­rāce, or malice with boldnes (Sir Controller) I cannot say: for master Fox is truly alleaged, and he truly citeth Luthers opinions, as they were condemned by Pope Leo vnder his bul: and this to be one, that where a Priest cannot be had, euery Christian man or woman standeth in as good steed: Fox. pag. 1281. col. 2. artic. 13. he maketh no mention of boyes, as your Bel­larmine saith. Now (my friend) I would think [Page 74] that your holie father Pope Leo in his bull, should bee of better credit with you, then Cardinall Bellarmine in his booke: you vrge me to say vnto you as Hierome against Ru [...]in. Quid est, quod de ore illo tuo pudentissimo non exeat, video te frontem ferream possidere: What will not that shamelesse mouth of you [...] vt­ter; I see you haue a brasen forehead? Whom I may compare to that Merchant of Ch [...]s in Plutarke, de animi tranquillit. who sold euery man good wine, and kept the sower to him­selfe, of whom his seruants said: Our master, bonis praesentibus malis vtitur: when he may vse [...]. good things, doth chuse the euill▪ So doth this Carper omit the best and take the worst, hee changeth good things for euill words.

The Reconciliation.

FIrst, it followeth not, if some kinde of pri­uate confession were vsed in the time of [Page 75] Nectarius, that therfore it was the popish au­ricular confession, which was brought in by Innocentius the 3: whereby euery one was bound to confesse to the Priest, omnia pecca­ta, all their sinnes, and that vnder paine of excommunication while they liued, and to be depriued of Christian buriall when they were dead: Decret. Gregor. lib. 5. tit. 38. c. 12. Such auricular and particular confession of all sinnes we denie to haue been vsed in any ancient time.

They confessed priuately such sinnes as were notorious and troubled the conscience: which kind of confession, if it be not turned to an abuse, as then it was, wee mislike not, but wish it might be practised.

Secondly, the taking away of priuate confession by Nectarius, sheweth an old a­buse Auricular confession of no great antiquitie. of it: that when it began to degenerate and grow vnto inconuenience, then was it abrogated: what contradiction then is there to say, that auricular confession was not vsed of ancient time, and that priuate confession was abused in former time and so abrogated? or what doe you gaine by this, if ye can shew your auricular confession to haue been con­demned and abrogated a thousand yeeres and more since: it is not enough to alleage antiquitie, but to shew the allowance of an­tiquitie.

Now where you say it is a lie, that Necta­rius [Page 76] abrogated priuate confession, as you en­ter not into that discourse, being as is most like somewhat beyond your reach: so I doe referre the Reader for our further answere, to y ^• which is at large handled hereof Synops. pag. 649. sure it is that priuate confession after that was not vsed in the Greek Church, if your owne decree be true: Caus. 33. distin. 1. cap. 9. Some doe say that we must confesse only to God, vt Graeci, as the Grecians. It was indeede the vse of the Heathen priests to vrge con­fession: as the priest required of Antalcidas, what euill he had done, and he answered: If I haue done any such thing, the Gods know. As for your lies and other railing speeches, were passe not for them, they shew your weaknes, they hurt not him whom you shoote at. Alci­biades biting his hand, that he wrestled with, and being asked if he did bite as women: no [...]. saith he, but as lions: but this backbiter as a woman muttereth in corners, not as a manly lion shewing himselfe face to face. I wish him no more hurt, then that hee had followed Hieromes aduice: Faciam ne dum volo alium notare culpae, ipse noter calumniae: I will take heede, lest while I am a fault finder of others, I be not found my selfe to be a cauiller.

The Reconciliation.

FIrst: 1. If either it be answered, that Hygi­nus brought in Chrisme in Confirmation, and Siluester ordained Chrisme in Baptisme: 2. or that Hyginus is alleaged as the author of Chrisme by the confession of the aduersarie, as is before shewed, Siluester in our opinion as more likely: 3. or that, Siluester was the first, that made a publike decree and ordi­nance of Chrisme, which might be in vse be­fore, though not by like authoritie: Any of these answers may serue to reconcile these two places obiected, whereof wee most ap­proue the second and the third.

Secondly: But Siluester (you say) is not reported by Damasus to haue been the deui­ser of Chrisme, but did ordaine onely, that such as were baptized, should be annointed with Chrisme on the top of the head.

Contrà. 1. Well then, ye graunt vs, that Siluester brought in Chrisme in Baptisme: it followeth, that it is no Apostolical institutiō.

[Page 78]2. Siluester then was the first, by your con­fession, that made Chrisme a member or part of the Sacrament of Baptisme: others made mention of Chrisme before, but not of the Sa­crament of Chrisme: as Bellarmine himselfe confesseth, that those testimonies, which hee boroweth from the Bishops of Rome, as from Clemens, Cornelius, Fabianus, non disertis verbis affirmant confirmationem esse sacramentum, do not directly affirme confirmation to be a Sa­crament: de Sacrament confirmat. lib. 2. c. 3.

3. Cornelius, as he is alleaged out of Euse­bius, reprooued Nouatus for that after Bap­tisme hee receiued not Chrisme: which was a ceremonie and complement of baptisme, omitted at that time, because Nouatus was baptized in his bed being at the point of death. If Cor­nelius then required Chrisme to be annexed to Baptisme, I pray you how did Siluester or­daine Chrisme first to be vsed in Baptisme? I would haue you salue vp this contradiction betweene them, before you picke quarrels with vs.

4. You haue testimonies no lesse ancient for the proofe of Chrisme: which because you pro­duce not, I wil helpe you with one out of Fa­bianus second Decretal epistle. In illa die Do­minus Iesus postquam coenauit cum discipulis, sicut à sanctis Apostolis praedecessores nostri ac­ceperunt, Chrisma conficere docuit: In the same day, after our Lord Iesus had supped with his [Page 69] Disciples, as our predecessors receiued of the Apostles, taught how to make Chrisme. If you speake of lies, here is a lusty one, that our Sauiour Christ taught his Apostles to make Chrisme. I marueile you did not cite this epi­stle of Fabians, as you did that of Cornelius to another Fabian: but I more marueile why Bellarmine omitteth it: you might misse it of ignorance, but I thinke he was ashamed to alleage so grosse and counterfeited autho­ritie.

Now as for your Cuckow song, in crying nothing but lies, lies, we rebound them vpon your owne head, and cast your dirt vpon your owne face. I may well compare you, as Themistocles did the Eretrians to the fish [...]. called Teuthis, that hath a long bone like a sword, but no heart: so you dart forth words like swords, but there is no heart, that is, truth or substance in them. God forgiue you, and make you an honest man. I say with Ruffinus: Jnuectiu. Ruffin. Demus veniam ei, qui veniam dare nescit, imi­temur Dauid qui comprehensum in spelunca ini­micum suum Saulum cum iugulare potuit no­luit, &c. Let vs forgiue him, that knoweth not how to forgiue, and imitate Dauid, who when he might would not kill Saul taken in the caue.

The Reconciliation.

FIrst, Caluine (saith the Libeller) graunteth that antiquitie in diuers questions belee­ued as they do: Luther refuseth diuers of the Fathers, as Basile, Hierome, and saith that the Diuell did grossely deceiue Gregorie in his Dialogues.

Contrà. 1. Is not this well reasoned of this skilfull Logician? the Fathers in some small matters held as the Church of Rome doth, as in the ceremonies of Baptisme, prayer for the dead, reseruing of the Sacrament: Ergo, ge­nerally, and in the maine points of contro­uersie, as for the supremacie of the Bishop of Rome, transubstantiation, adoration of ima­ges, sacrifice of the Masse and such like, they are all with them.

2. And is Luther such an eye sore vnto you, because he sometimes refuseth, one, two or three of the Fathers? doth hee or wee any otherwise, then the Fathers themselues? Saith not Hierome? Scio aliter me habere Apostolos, aliter reliquos tractatores, illos semper vera dice­re, istos vt homines in quibusdam aberrare: I make not like account of the Apostles and other writers: I hold that they alwaies speak [Page 81] the trueth, the other as men in some things may be deceiued: ad Theophil. aduers. Ioann. Hierosol.

Doe not popish writers take vnto them­selues The Fa­thers refu­sed of po­pish writers the like libertie? Harding refuseth Ter­tullian and Cyprian: Turrian reiecteth Chry­sostome: Arthurus Hierome: Bellarmine Au­gustine in diuers places, and Hilarius, Hippo­lytus, Apollinarius: See Tetrasty l. p. 142. 143. Bellarmine saith of Sozomene: Eum multa esse mentitum, that he lied in many things, libr. 3. de poeniten. cap. 14. Doth not the libeller him­selfe grant as much? We admit not the autho­ritie of one, two or three ancient and holie fathers dissenting from the rest. pag. 133.

3. But you thinke hardly, that Luther should so speake of Gregories Dialogues: he might well so doe because it is a booke full of fables and lies, whereof the diuell is the author; neither was it euer written by Grego­rie: for this Dialogue maketh mention of pur­gatorie fire, lib. 4. dialog. cap. 39. whereas Gre­gorie holdeth but two places after this life, libr. 8. moral. cap. 8. in these words: Whether a good spirit or euill doe receiue the soule going out of the prison of the flesh; it shall keepe it secum in aeternum, for euer with it, without any chaunge: from whence being exalted, it shall not be cast downe to punishment, nor being drenched in eter­nall punishment shall ascend, &c.

Hierome himselfe that learned father spea­keth [Page 66] as hardly of one, against whom hee had no greater cause: Portat nequaquam vexillum Christi, sed insigne diaboli: He beareth not the banner of Christ, but the ensigne of the di­uell, aduers. Vigilant. Yet I excuse not, what­soeuer in the heate of affection, might drop from Luthers pen.

4. But is not this a good argument, Cal­uine, Luther, sometime refuse the Fathers: Er­go, the writer of SYNOPSIS speaketh con­traries?

Secondly, saith the Libeller, Bellarmine in diuers controuersies plentifully citeth the fa­thers: as in the controuersies of inuocation of Saints, Pilgrimage, Purgatorie, vnto the which there is no answere at all but silence, as Baal answered his suppliant seruants, which bewraieth the insufficiencie of his booke, and manifestly proclaimeth antiqui­tie on our side. pag. 175. 176.

Contrà. 1. The writer of SYNOPSIS in­tending the profit not of the learned, but of others, thought it not so necessarie to handle at large the testimonies of the Fathers allea­ged by the aduersarie: 1. Because the booke would haue growne by this means to a grea­ter volume, then was fit for euery mans lea­sure to reade, or their abilitie to reach. 2. The treatise being in English, to what purpose should Bellarmines quotations be produced in that language, which the aduersary vnder­stood [Page 83] not, and so could not make answere? 3. There be others that haue happily vnder­taken that enterprise, as that learned man, whom the Libeller in his first part traduceth, that Bellarmine shall not want worke. 4. As Bellarmines authorities are omitted, except in some principal controuersies; so neither on the other side are our antiquities produced, in such number, as the writer out of his owne readings could haue alleaged, otherwise then of their owne testimonies, out of their Canons, and writers specially vrged against themselues, and turned vppon their owne heads. 5. The speciall grounds both to con­firme the trueth, and conuince error in euery controuersie, are to be taken from the Scrip­tures, which hee thought most profitable for the instruction of the Reader, and such pla­ces out of the Prophets and Apostles are spe­cially and principally handled: wherein hee followeth Hieromes aduise to Pammach. Sim­plices epistolae tuae olent Prophetas, Apostolos sa­piunt, non cothurnatam affectas eloquentiam, nec more puerorum argutas sententiolas in clausulis struis: Your epistles are plaine, smelling of the Prophets, sauouring of the Apostles, you affect not curious eloquence, nor as children hunt after sentences.

2. Bellarmine in deede maketh great shew of antiquitie, but most of his ancient testi­monies, are either out of forged authors, or [Page 82] els impertinently alleaged, or by him corrup­ted and falsified: as, to giue one instance for many, his dealing in the controuersie of pur­gatorie euidently sheweth.

First, the constitutions of Clemens, Diony­sius de ecclesiastic. Hierarch. Athanasius que­stions ad Antiochiam, Gregories Dialogues, the Liturgie of Basil, Testament of Ephrem, are all bastard writings, which Bellarmine produceth as authenticall witnesses for Pur­gatorie.

Secondly, Gregorie Nazianzen, Eusebius, Epiphanius, Chrysostom, Theodoret, Theophylact, Damascene, are impertinently cited for Pur­gatorie: who indeed make mention of praier for the dead, but haue no one word of Purga­torie, neither doth the Greeke Church be­leeue that there is any purgatorie fire: prooem. ad concil. Florentin.

Tertullian likewise, Cyprian, Ambrose, Hie­rome, are brought in to bee of the Iurie for purgatorie, but they do not so much as men­tion it: who so list to take view of their testi­monies, as they are cited by Bellarm. libr. 1. de purg. cap. 6.

Thirdly, Bellarmine is found to be a falsi­fier, as Bracarens. concil. 1. can. 39. these words are added of his owne, vt oraretur pro defun­ctis, that praier should be made for the dead. Likewise Concil. 6. sub Symmacho, these words are foisted in by Bellarmine: Sacrilegium esse [Page 83] fraudare defunctorum animas orationibus: That it is sacriledge to defraude the soules of the dead of prayer, the Councell saith only, it is sacrilege, oblationes defunctorū ecclesiae auferre, to take away the oblations of the dead from the Church, and conuert them to other vses. Wormatiens. c. 10. is falsely alleaged: Pro sus­pensis in patibulo esse sacrificandum: That they must sacrifice for those that are hanged: or els he had some new copie of his owne which he followed. By these particular instances it may appeare, what fidelitie Bellarmine hath vsed in other controuersies, and how well antiquitie standeth of his side.

3. Whereas it is alleaged that inuocation of Saints is prooued by Bellarmine by the Councel of Chalcedon, confirmed by act of parliament, Libel. pag. 175. as though now by the lawes of this land it were lawfull to pray to Saints. Our answere is, that in deede the Church of England alloweth the decrees of the Chalcedon, and of the other three ge­nerall Councels concerning the faith, and their condemnation of the heresies of Arrius in the Nicen, of Macedonius in the first Con­stantinop. Nestorius in the Ephesine, Eutyches in the Chalcedon: but all the acts of this Councell for other matters it receiueth not. 2. Neither is there any Canon or decree in this Councel extant of inuocation of Saints: for that which Bellarmine bringeth, is taken [Page 86] out of the colloquies and conferences, and postscripts of the Councell, not from the au­thoritie of any Canon, or determination thereof. 3. That which hee hath of the inter­cession of Proterius, and of Flauianus: Flauia­nus post mortem viuit, martyr pro nobis oret: Flauianus liueth after death, let the Martyr pray for vs: doth shew the opinion which they had that the Saints prayed for them: which is another question. Neither doth it follow, that, if it be graunted, that the Saints doe pray for vs in generall, not knowing our particular necessities, not as mediators, but as fellow members wishing the perfection of the rest of the bodie, that therefore they should bee prayed vnto: neither can it bee shewed that those Fathers made any suppli­cation to those Saints, Sancte Proterie, sancte Flauiane &c. Holie▪ Proterius, holie Flauiane pray for vs: which forme the Church of Rome now vseth. 4. Neither was this the voice of the whole Councell, but Episcopi & presbyteri Constantinopolitani clamauerunt, but the Bi­shops and priests of Constantinople so cried, act. 11. 5. And yet we denie not, but that in this time, which was almost fiue hundred yeeres after Christ, superstition began to set foote into the Church, and these opinions of intercession and inuocation of Saints to bee embraced, though not in such manner as the Church of Rome now holdeth. Neither doe [Page 87] we stand so much vpon this, what any Fa­thers of the Church either a part, or assem­bled together did hold, as vpon what ground of Scripture their opinion was founded.

4. But as for Baals answere, Baals shauen priests haue better experience thereof, that worship stockes and stones, then they which detest all such abominations. As Baal was dumbe and mute, when his priests called vn­to him, so are popish Images, when they are prayed vnto: for they can doe neither good nor euill, as the Prophet saith, Esay. 41. 23. Xenophanes wittily derided the like follie in the superstitious Aegyptians, that in their so­lemne Where are▪ Baals priests. sacrifices vsed to howle and crie: They are either Gods, then mourne not for them; or men, then doe not sacrifice vnto them. And a cer­taine Lace demonian to him that made col­lection for the Idol-temples, made this pre­sent answere: Non curo Deos me pauperiores: I care not for such beggerly Gods, that are poorer then I. Such are popish images, which of other mens purses are decked and ador­ned with gold: Such beggerly images, in po­perie, vse to giue Baals answere to their mise­rable suppliants: which is fit enough for Baals priests, that marke and disfigure themselues with shauing and cutting, a notable badge of their hypocrisie. As Philip said to one that [...]. misused his haire: Non posse esse fidelem in ne­gotijs, qui mala fide tractaret crines: That hee [Page 88] could not be faithfull in his labour, that was vnfaithfull to his lockes.

Thirdly, the Libeller would shew vs to be enemies to antiquitie, because it is called, the vaine shew of mothworne antiquitie: and the 1 vulgar Latine translation of the Bible partly done by Hierome, partly corrected by him, 2 partly receiued from another most ancient edition commended by Augustine, is termed an old blind Latine translation: and the aun­cient Fathers, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Ambrose, 3 Augustine should bee called Heretikes, be­cause they held that Antichrist should come of the tribe of Dan. Libel. pag. 177.

Contrà. True antiquitie is not called moth­worne, 1 but that shew of antiquitie, which Bel­larmine pretendeth to prooue the name and office of Cardinals, is so called; because like as a garment eaten with moths, hath no­thing to commend it, but the oldnes thereof: so are his allegations borne out onely with the name and shew of antiquitie. For that al­leaged out of the Romane Councell vnder Siluester can. 6. sheweth neither the name of Cardinals appropriate to the Church of Rome, nor yet their office, which is to elect the Pope: The Canon onely saith, that there should be seuen Cardinals in Rome, because the Citie was deuided into seuen regions: and euery one should be a principall ouer­seer of his quarter. This prooueth not that [Page 89] there were Cardinals only in Rome: but the principall Ministers of other Churches were so called, as at Naples, distinct. 71. c. 5. at Sy­racuse, distinct. 74. c. 6. And as for the office of Cardinals in electing the Pope, Bellarmine confesseth it is but of foure hundred yeeres continuance, lib. 1. de Cleric. c. 9.

Neither is the vulgar Latine translation 2 of Hieromes doing, as thinketh Sanctis Pagni­nus in praefat. ad Clem. 7. and Driedo lib. 2. c. 1. The vulgar Latine not Hieromes translation. de catalog. scriptur. neither is it that transla­tion of Italie, which Augustine commendeth lib. 2. de doct. Christian. c. 15. not. c. 4. as is erro­niously noted in the margin: for Augustine followeth that translation which is much dif­fering from the vulgar Latine now vsed. But that it is an old blind translation, it may eui­dently appeare to him that will take but a little paine to compare it with the originall: as Genes. 3. 15. for ( it) shall break thine head, the Latine hath, ipsa, she, referring it to the woman. Genes. 8. 4. for the seuenteenth day of the moneth, they reade seuen and twentie. Ge­nes. 19. 18. for, not so I pray thee, the Latine hath, so I pray thee: leauing out, not. Genesis 24. 22. two sickles, for halfe a sickle. Gen. 36. 24. Aanh found out mules: hote waters, saith the Latine. Genes. 37. 2. Ioseph was septendecim annorum, seuenteene yeere old: sedecim, 16. yeere old, say they. Diuers hundred of such places might bee gathered both out of the [Page 94] old and new Testament, to shew the corrup­tion of the vulgar Latine translation. See more here of Synops. pag. 21.

3. It is vntrue, that the Fathers are called, Heretikes: for none of them are named: but these are the words: It is a very fable and cou­soning deuice of heretikes to make men beleeue, that Antichrist shall come of the tribe of Dan: where the Fathers are not noted, who held it as a probable opinion in their time, before Antichrist was reucaled: but the Papists, the Heretikes of these daies, who now in the ma­nifestation of Antichrist, would blind peo­ples eyes, that they should not see him in his colours. Neither is it here assumed, that they are heretikes for this opinion, or that it is he­resie simply to thinke that Antichrist shall come of Dan: but they which in other opi­nions maintaine open heresie, doe herein al­so vse a point of cousonage to deceiue the people. Ambrose concerning the comming of Antichrist, thus saith, The Lord shall not come before there be a defection of the Romane Empire, & appareat Antichristus, qui interfi­ciet sanctos, reddita Romanis libertate, sub suo tamen nomine: and Antichrist appeare, which shall kill the Saints, restoring libertie to the Romanes, but vnder his owne name: in 2. Thess. cap. 2. Here hee deliuereth foure markes of Antichrist, which all agree to the Bishop of Rome: first, the maiestie and authoritie of [Page 75] the Empire is decaied. Secondly, he hath kil­led and murthered the Saints. Thirdly, hee goeth about to maintaine the libertie and iurisdiction of Rome. Fourthly, and that vn­der his owne name, for of the Pope they are all called Papists.

Now to make men beleeue, that the Pope is not Antichrist, but that there shall come one a little before the end of the world to be borne of the Iewes, that shall conquer all the world, and worke wonders; what is it els but a cunning sleight of Sathan, and a cousoning tricke of his instruments to keep the people in suspence, and make them vnreadie for the comming of Christ? As Ruffinus thus saith, in Symbol. Scire debemus, quód salutarem Christi aduentū, conatur inimicus ad decipiendos fideles callida fraude simulare, & pro filio hominis qui expectatur venturus in maiestate, filium perdi­tionis in signis mendacibus praeparare: We must know, that the enemie goeth about craftily to dissemble and colour the comming of Christ to deceiue the faithfull, and in steed of the sonne of man which is expected in ma­iestie, to prepare the sonne of perdition with lying signes and hypocrisie.

Fourthly, to prooue the popish religion grounded vpon antiquitie, the Libeller gi­ueth instance in diuers particulars. First, be­cause Austin the Monke is affirmed in Gre­gorie the firsts time to be one of the Captaines [Page 92] and ringleaders of superstition, it is inferred that our land was first conuerted to the po­pish religion, a thousand yeeres agoe. p. 178.

Contrà. 1. Austin brought in some super­stitious rites, which now the Romane church still retaineth: but yet the grossest points of Poperie, as of adoration of Images, transub­stantiation, iustification by workes, and such other, are nothing so ancient. Neither neede it seeme strange, that some errors crept into the Church a thousand yeer since, seeing that the mysterie of iniquitie began to worke in the Apostles time, 2. Thessal. 2. 7. and 6. hun­dred yeeres after Christ, the Church began much to decline and degenerate.

2. Austin the Monke was not the first conuerter of the English nation: for in Hie­romes time the Britaines had receiued the Gospell: De Hierosolymis, & de Britannia ae­qualiter patet aula calestis: Heauen is open as well in Britannie as at Ierusalem, Hieron. ad Paulin. And Origen aboue an hundred yeere Austin the Monke not the first conuerter of England before Hierome confesseth as much: Morta­lium vniuersam naturam verbum peruicit, &c. nec humanum genus aliquod licet spectari, quod non huius susceperit disciplinam: The worde hath ouercome the nature of the vniuersall world, neither is there any kind of men to be seene, which hath not receiued the discipline thereof: lib. 2. cont. Celsum. This our countrie was then many hundred yeeres conuerted to [Page 77] the faith, before Austin was sent from Rome: And as it began in the holy Apostolike faith, so wee trust it shall make an end: and that faith which it receiued at Christs going out of the world, wee assuredly hope, through Gods mercie, that it shall render vnto Christ at his comming againe to iudge the world.

2. Epiphanius and Augustine noted Aerius for an heretike, because he denied prayer and oblation for the dead.

Answ. 1. Because Augustine and Epipha­nius so thought, doth it follow that all anti­quitie is on your side, and that all the fathers All the Fa­thers allow not prayer for the dead. so thought? Cyprian saith: Confiteantur singuli delictum suum, dum adhuc, qui deliquit, in seculo est; dum admitti cōfessio eius potest; dum satisfa­ctio & remissio facta per sacerdotem apud Deum grata est: Confesse euery man his sinne, while he, that hath sinned is in the world; while his confession may be admitted, while satisfac­tion and remssion done by the priest is grate­full vnto God, serm. de lapsis. Ambrose saith: Mors deteriorem statum non facit, sed qualem in singulis inuenerit, talem iudicio futuro reseruat: Death maketh no mans state worse, but such as it findeth euery man in, it reserueth to the iudgement to come, de bon. mort. cap. c. 4. Ber­nard vpon these words Eccles. 11. 3. If the tree doth fall toward the South▪ or toward the North, where the tree falleth, there it shall be, thus writeth: Men are as trees, the tree is cut [Page 94] vp in death: which way soeuer it falleth, there it shall be: quia ibi te iudicabit Deus, vbi inuene­rit, videat, quo casura sit, antequam cadat, quia postquam ceciderit, non adijciet vt resurgat, sed nec vt se vertat, &c. for God shall iudge thee there where he shall finde thee: let the tree looke which way it shall fall, before it doe fall: for after it be fallen, it shall no more rise, nor turne it selfe: Serm. paru. 49. If then the state of the dead cannot be altred, if they shall be iudged in that condition wherein they die, doth it not strongly follow, that it is in vaine to pray for the dead?

But what if Augustine himselfe sometime Augustine against prayer for the dead. be of another minde, what is become then of your shew of antiquitie? as serm. 21. in Matth. Qualis quisque hinc exierit suo nouissimo die, ta­lis inuenitur in seculi nouissimo die: nihil te adiu­uabit quod hîc non feceris: vnumquemque opera sua iuuabunt, aut opera sua pressura sunt: Such as euery man goeth hence in his last day, such shall he be found in the last day of the world: nothing shall helpe thee which thou hast not done here: euery mans workes shall either helpe him, or cast him down. Then it follow­eth that prayer profi [...]eth not y ^• dead, because it is not done by themselues. And y [...]t more euidently Serm. ad fratres in erem [...] 2. Si dicis, pro quo petere debeas, dico quod pro bene & male viuentibus, vt bonus perseueret, malus conuerta­tur, non pro sanctis, non pro damnatis, &c. If you [Page 95] say, for whom must I pray, I say for good and euill liuers, that the good may perseuere, the euill may bee conuerted, not for the Saints, not for the damned, &c. The author of these Sermons, maketh but two sorts of the dead after this life, the blessed and the damned, for both which it is in vaine to pray. It may bee obiected, that serm. 44. this author alloweth suffrages to be made for the dead. I answere, that that sermon is not like to be Augustines, because it disagreeth from him in other pla­ces: as cont. Pelag. artic. 5. Augustine maketh but two places after this life, heauen and hel: Tertium penitus ignoramus, immo nec esse in scripturis sanctis inuenimus: The third place we are ignorant of, nay we finde it not to be in the Scriptures.

Lastly, what if wee should yeeld you Epi­phanius and Augustine for this opinion of prayer for the dead, will ye yeeld vs them for the rest? Epiphanius directly condemneth the adoration of Images, epist. ad Ioann. Hierosoly, where seeing a painted cloath, habens imagi­nem tanquam Christi, hauing as it were the image of Christ, he commaunded it to be ta­ken away, because he saw the image of a man hanging in the Church of Christ, against the authoritie of the Scripture. Augustine, against the carnall presence, the adoration of Ima­ges, the doctrine of merits, free will, and in an hundred points more, is wholy ours against [Page 96] the Papists. It were too long to giue a parti­cular instance in them all in this place, I re­ferre the Reader to the treatise of the contro­uersies.

3. Concerning Siricius and Gregories au­thorities for the inhibiting of mariage to the Clergie, I haue answered before, contradic. 2. and what the ancient Church did hold for the lawfulnes of the mariage of Ministers, it is shewed at large Synops. from pag. 262. to pag 269. Cyprian. lib. 4. epist. 10. maketh men­tiō of one Numidicus a Presbyter, Qui vxorē Ministers maried in Origen & Cyprians time. concrematam, &c. adhaerentem lateri laetus as­pexit, which cheerefully beheld his wife bur­ning with him, and cleauing to his side. In Origens time Ministers were maried, and had children: Tract. 8. in Matth. Qui à Christianis parentibus enutriti sunt, &c. maxime si fuerint, ex patribus sacerdotali sede dignificatis, id est, E­piscopatus, presoyteratus, aut diaconatus, ne glo­rientur: They which were brought vp of Christian parents, especially if they came of fathers dignified with the priestly seate, Bi­shops, Presbyters or Deacons, let them not boast. Hierome, that great commender of single life, maketh mention in his Catalog of Polycrates Bishop of Ephesus, who thus wri­teth in an epistle against Victor Bishop of Rome: Septem fuerunt propinqui mei episcopi, & ego octauus: Seuen of my kinred were Bi­shops before me, and I the eight. All these [Page 97] were long before Siricius and Gregorie. How say you now (Sir) is all antiquitie against the mariage of Ministers, or are you not proued a vaine boaster of antiquitie?

4. For the reuerencing of Reliques, pray­ing to Saints, that it is not lawfull for Eccle­siasticall persons to marrie, that it is expe­dient for rich men to giue all their riches to the poore: they haue Hierome altogether on their side, who taught their faith, and wrote in defence thereof against Vigilantius. Libel. p. 18.

Contrà. 1. Whereas all these foresaid opi­nions are proued not to be erronious, both out of the Scriptures, and by the testimonie of Augustine, this answere is made, that Au­gustine is abused: but he sheweth not how, neither doth hee examine the authorities al­leaged out of that father, Tetrastyl. pag. 100. pag. 101. whereby it may be gathered, that either those places were too euident to bee gainsaid, or without the compasse of this pro­found Clarkes reading: if hee had loosened the hold, which we haue of Augustine, in those places, wee would haue produced others to haue strengthened them, but now it shall not neede, where the aduersaries mouth is alrea­die stopped. 2. Yet hee telleth vs, that if wee can obtaine at their hands, that either Scripture or Augustine make for them, let Hierome a Gods name be reiected.

Why (Sir) till such time as you haue an­swered [Page 98] both Scripture and Augustine, which are there vrged in defence of these opinions, they doe make for vs. But I thinke wee shall hardly obtaine so much at your hands: for you are a liberall gentleman, your manner is to graunt nothing, though neuer so eui­dently conuinced. Brutus was wont to say: Male is videtur florem aetatis collocasse, qui nihil negare auderet: He seemeth to haue bestowed his time euill, which durst denie nothing. But I thinke they haue bestowed it worse, that dare denie any thing. But what if Hie­rome be not so much your friend in these opi­nions, as you vaunt, where are you then? First, Hierome contendeth not against Vigi­lantius, for the adoration of Reliques, but for Hierome would haue Saints re­liques reue­renced, not adored. due reuerence to be giuen them: I am se intel­liget Samaritanum & Iudaeum, qui corpora mor­tuorum pro immundis habet: He shall see that hee is no better then a Iew or Samaritane, which counteth the bodies of the dead vn­cleane. And againe, Nos non dico martyrum reliquias, sed ne solem quidem aut lunam, non an­gelos aut archangelos, &c. colimus & adoramus ne seruiamus creaturae potius quam creatori, &c. honoramus reliquias martyrum, &c. We, I say not the reliques of Martyrs, but we worship not or adore the Sunne or Moone, Angels or Archangels, least we should serue the crea­ture rather then the Creator: but we honour the reliques of Martyrs, that wee may wor­ship [Page 99] him, whose Martyrs they are: ad Ripa­rium. What maketh this now for the Papists opinion, that doe not onely honour and re­uerence, but adore the reliques of Martyrs?

2. Neither is Hieromes opinion altoge­ther currant for the inuocation of Saints: Quis enim ô insanum caput aliquando martyres adorauit? quis hominem putauit Deum? Who (O you madbraine) euer adored Martyrs? or tooke a man to be God? De Petro legimus quod Cornelium se adorare cupientem manu sub­leuauit & dixit, homo ego sum: We reade of Pe­ter, that he lifted vp Cornelius, desirous to a­dore him, with his hand, and said, I am a man. If Martyrs and Saints are not to be adored, then not to be inuocated: for inuocation is a part of diuine adoration.

3. Concerning Ministers mariage, Hie­rome hath these words: Si Samuel nutritus in tabernaculo duxit vxorem, quid hoc ad praeiudi­cium virginitatis, quasi nō hodie quoque plurimi sacerdotes habeant matrimonia? & apostolus de­scribat episcopum vnius vxoris virum, haben­tem filios cū omni castitate: If Samuel brought vp in the Tabernacle maried a wife, that is no preiudice to virginitie, as though many priests now a daies enioy not mariage? and the Apostle describeth a Bishop, the husband of one wife, hauing children with all cha­stitie.

4. Neither doth Hierome thinke it conue­nient [Page 100] alwaies for a man to giue all his riches Rich men not bound to giue all away. to the poore, but preferreth it only as a more perfect thing: as he saith thus to Vigilantius: Iste quem tu laudas, secundus & tertius gradus est, quem & nos recipimus, &c. This that you commend (that is, for a man to vse his riches) is the second and third degree, which we also receiue: so that wee know, that the first is to be preferred before the second and third. For otherwise Hierome should haue spoken a­gainst himselfe, who did not giue all away which he had: Quo labore, quo pretio, Barraba­num nocturnum habui praeceptorem? nostrum marsupium Alexandrinae chartae euacuarunt: With what labour, with what price did I get Barrabanus (a certaine Rabbin) to teach me in the night? the paper of Alexandria hath emptied my purse: epistol. ad Pammach. & O­cean. Hierome then had money: for other­wise he could not haue been at this cost. You see now (master Controller) how well Hie­rome standeth of your side: and yet if he were yours wholy here, you must lend him to vs for many other points, as concerning the Canonicall Scriptures, against free will, me­rits, for iustification by faith, and such other, as might abundantly be shewed, if either time or place serued.

5. Fiftly: 1. In what sense Telesphorus, Ca­lixtus, and Hyginus are said to haue been the institutors of these vsages, of Lent, Ember [Page 101] fasts, Chrisme, is sufficiently shewed before, in the answere to contradict. 3. 2. Though they could alleage antiquitie for these toyes, yet this is nothing to the substance of Pope­rie. 3. And if these obseruations haue been of ancient time, yet shall they neuer be able to shew, that they were so superstitiously then kept, with so many superfluous rites, with such opinion of merite, and with such necessitie inioyned, as now in Poperie.

6. Sixtly, that Iohns Baptisme was diuers Iohns baptisme not diuers frō Christs. from Christs, contrarie to the opinion of the Protestants, Augustine (saith the Libeller) standeth on our side.

Contrà. 1. Augustine is not wholy theirs: for whereas Bellarmine denieth, that the pro­per end of Iohns baptisme was for remission of sinnes; Augustine thus confesseth: Tamen ne quisquam contendat etiam in baptismo Ioan­nis dimissa esse peccata, sed aliquam ampliorem sanctificationem &c. per baptismum Christi col­latam, non ago pugnaciter, &c. Yet least any man contend, that euen in Iohns baptisme sinnes were forgiuen, but that some greater sanctification was conferred by Christs bap­tisme vpon those that S. Paul bid to be againe baptized, I will not striue against it. Augu­stine here seemeth to graunt, that Iohn might remit sinnes in baptisme, so that some pree­minence and greater sanctification be yeel­ded to Christs. Is not the Libeller now asha­med [Page 102] to say, that he abuseth Saint Augustine, I make no doubt: but who so bold as blind ba­yard? It is pitie that hee had not the Author by him to examine this sentence: for hee would then haue cried out a fresh of falsifica­tion, because I rehearsed not all the words, as they are cited now, only for breuitie sake, set­ting downe those, which shew that, for the which the place is alleaged: but now the whole sentence being expressed, there is the same sense, which before out of part was in­ferred: onely in the margin the place is mi­staken, the 14. chapter being noted for the tenth.

2. What if wee yeeld you Augustine for this opinion; what haue you gained, if other of the fathers testifie with vs, that make Iohns baptisme and Christs all one? As Ambrose confesseth: Ioannes in remissionem peccatorum in aduenientis Iesu nomine, non in suo baptiza­uit, &c. Iohn baptized for remission of sinnes in the name of Iesus to come, not in his own, lib. 1. de Spirit. cap. 3. Leo saith: Christus ad Ioannis baptisma accessit: Christ came vnto Iohns baptisme, de consecr. distinct. 3. c. 14. And wee are baptized with that baptisme, where­with Christ was baptized. Ambros. serm. 41. Ergo fratres tingi debemus eodem fonte, quo Christus, vt possimus esse quod Christus: There­fore brethren we must be dipped in the same fountaine that Christ was, that wee may be [Page 103] the same that Christ is. And Chromatius saith, Nunquam aqua baptismi purgare peccata cre­dentium posset, nisi tactu Dominici corporis san­ctificatae essent: The waters of baptisme could neuer purge the sinnes of beleeuers, vnlesse they were sanctified by the touch of the Lords bodie: in Matth. cap. 6. Wee then are baptized with that baptisme which Christ sanctified, but that was the baptisme of Iohn.

Your Master of Sentences confesseth, that Iohn baptized in nomine futuri, in the name of Christ to come, libr. 4. distinct. 2. f. and that they, which did not spem ponere, put their hope in Iohns baptisme, were not baptized a­gaine: ibid. and he thinketh that Christs bap­tisme was instituted in Iordan, distinct. 3. g. but that was Iohns baptisme, as Leo before saith: Ergo, Iohns baptisme and Christs were alone: And if they were not baptized again, that receiued Iohns baptisme in a right faith, then was it all one with the baptisme of Christ. I hope now it appeareth, that antiqui­tie will not yeeld this point vnto our aduer­saries.

7. Concerning the profession of virgini­tie, hee saith, antiquitie was of our opinion, be­cause it is confessed, that the Manichees ob­iected vnto Augustine, the multitude of their virgines.

Ans. 1. I marueile how the Defender here escaped the Detectors censure: for the words [Page 104] alleaged are somewhat mistaken: for the Manichees did not thus obiect to Augustine: You labour to draw women of euery hand to this profession by your profession, that now in your Churches the number of professed virgines ex­ceedeth the number of women: but this is Au­gustines obiection to the Manichees, libr. 30. cont. Faustum cap. 4. So that this testimonie sheweth a great affinitie betweene the super­stitious endeuour of the Manichees, and the like practise in the popish Church, to make a multitude of virgines.

2. We grant the Fathers allowed the pro­fession How Augu­stine allow­eth profes­sion of vir­ginitie. of virginitie, where they had receiued that gift, but much vnlike it was to the po­pish vowes of single life. Augustine in the same place thus writeth: Nos hortamur vo­lentes, vt permaneant, non cogimus inuitas, vt accedant: We exhort them that are willing to continue, but we compell none against their wils to come. And againe, Ipsi tam stultum iudicamus inhibere volentem, quam nefas & impium nolentem cogere: We count it as foo­lish to forbid those that are willing, as wicked to compell the vnwilling, cont. faust. lib. 30. 4. They then forced no virgines, by cunning perswasion, as the Manichees did, nor other­wise to take vpon them the profession of vir­ginitie, neither did they hold them against their wils: But it is an vsuall practise in the popish Church, craftily to entice yong men [Page 105] and women to professe Monkerie, and after they are once entred, they then keepe them against their minds and disposition.

8. That Christ descended into that part of hell, which is called Limbus Patrum, and deliuered from thence the soules of Abraham and the Patriarkes, and other faithfull peo­ple, that were there kept expecting the re­demption of mankinde, &c. the ancient Fa­thers giue sentence for vs: and it is confes­sed, the most part of them to haue been in this error.

Answ. 1. Whereas Origen is alleaged in 1. cap. Iob to proue that the Patriarkes went to heauen, a place of life and light, to Abrahams bosome, the queere of Angels, &c. this answere is made, that he suspecteth that Origen is not syncerely alleaged: wherein he sheweth his great ignorance, and slender reading in the Fathers: the place is truly word for word co­pied out of Origen.

Againe (saith the Libeller) Origen beleeued herein as we beleeue, and to that purpose he citeth Origen, hom. 15. in Genes. thus speaking, that Christ descended to hell to fetch Adam from thence: Quod enim dicit ad latronem, hodie me­cum eris in paradiso, non hoc illi solum dictum, sed etiam omnibus sanctis dictum intellige, pro qui­bus ad inferna descendit: For what hee said to the theefe, this day thou shalt be with me in paradice, was not said onely to him, but vn­derstand [Page 106] it to be spoken to al the Saints, for whom he descended to hell.

Contrà. 1. By this saying of Origen, all the Saints ascended to heauen, the same day, and Origen a­gainst Christs de­scension to hell, to de­liuer the Patriarkes. at the same time, when the soule of the con­uerted theefe went to paradice. This is con­trary to the opinion of the moderne Papists, that hold, that Christs soule, manebat in loco animarum illo triduo, quo corpus iacebat in loco corporum, did tarie three daies in the place of soules, all which time his bodie did lie in the place of the bodies, Bellarm. libr. 4. de Christ. anim. cap. 15. And this is one of Durands ar­guments, to prooue, that Christs soule went not locally into hell, but onely effectually, in power and vertue, because in the same in­stant of Christs death the soules of the Saints were, beatificatae, made blessed, in 3. distin. 22. quaest. 3. And if the same day of Christs death, their soules were in paradice, according to O­rigens opinion, I pray you what time had Christs soule to be in hell, but onely by the vertue and power thereof: which must bee Origens meaning? Vnlesse you will say, that Christs soule was in heauen and hell in two places at once: which shift Bellarmine is driuen vnto, saying, It was not impossible vnto God, to make Christs soule to bee in two places at once, libr. 4. de Christ. anim. cap. 15. All things are possible, wee graunt vnto God: but where hath hee any warrant out [Page 107] of Scripture of this his presumption?

2. And that Origen meaneth not, that Christ did fetch the Saints out of any such hell and place of darknes, as they imagine, it is euident by that which followeth within tenne lines after in the same Homilie: where Origen vpon these words of the Lord to Ia­cob, Genes. 46. 4. I will bring thee backe againe: Velut si diceret, quia certamen bonum certasti, fidem seruasti, &c. reuocabo te iam de hoc mundo ad beatitudinem futuram, ad perfectionem vitae aeternae, ad iustitiae coronam, quam reddet Domi­nus in fine seculorum omnibus qui diligunt eum: As if he should say, because thou hast fought a good fight, kept the faith, &c. I will call thee out of this world to the blessednes to come, to the perfectiō of eternall life, to the crowne of righteousnes, which God shall render in the end of the world to all that loue him. If blessednes then, perfection of eternall life, the crowne of righteousnes, be in hell; then Iacob went to hell, otherwise not.

3. Because exception is taken against that testimonie cited out of Origen vpon Iob, who is thought not to haue been the author of that booke (for the which I will not much contend, though it be ancient, and sufficient­ly shew the opinion of that time, that Limbus Patrum, was not generally held of the Fa­thers) I will declare Origens iudgement out of other places of his workes: as Tractat. 26. [Page 108] in Matth. Prophetis recedentibus ab hac vita, corpora eorum in sepulchris erant, animae autem & spiritus in regione viuorum: The Prophets departing out of this life, their bodies were in the graues, but their soules and spirits in the region of the liuing. Againe, tract. 30. in Matth. vppon these words, they shall ga­ther the elect from the ends of heauen; he thus saith: Electi non solum illi qui ex aduentu Chri­sti sunt sancti, sicut quidam magistri haerese [...]s di­cunt, sed omnes, qui à constitutione mundi fue­runt, qui viderunt, sicut Abraham, Christi diem: They onely are not the elect, which are the Saints since the comming of Christ, as some masters of heresie say, but all they, which from the beginning of the world saw the day of Christ, as Abraham did. If then the Patri­arkes were in the region of the liuing, and were elected, I trust you will not say they were in hell: that is not the region of the li­uing, nor yet a place for the elect.

4. Neither did Origen only of the Fathers impugne your Limbus, but others also.

Cyprian serm▪ de mortalitat. Ad refrigerium iusti vocantur; ad supplicium rapiuntur iniusti: The iust are called to a refreshing, the vnrigh­teous are haled to punishment. If hell bee a place of refreshing, then the Patriarkes went thither. Ambrose: Qui in sinu Abrahae sedet, sus­ceptus à Christo est: He that sitteth in Abra­hams bosome, is receiued of Christ. The Pa­triarkes [Page 109] then and Prophets were receiued of Christ, for they were in Abrahams bosome: he that is receiued of Christ, is not I thinke in hell.

Augustine thus expoundeth these words, Genes. 49. 33. he was gathered to his people: An forte populus non solum sanctorum est, verum & angelorum: This people (it may be) is not on­ly of the Saints, but of the Angels: huic popu­lo apponuntur, qui post hanc vitam Deo placen­tes fiunt, to this people they are put, which af­ter this life please God, quaest. 168. super Ge­ves.

Likewise epistol. 99. Ne ipsos inferos vspiam scripturarum locis in bono appellatos reperire po­tui: I could neuer finde in Scripture, hell to bee taken in any good sense: and there hee concludeth, non esse membrum aut partem in­ferorum tantae illius faelicitatis sinum: that that bosome of so great felicitie, was no part or member of hell. The Patriarkes then that were in Abrahams bosome, by Augustines sentence were not in hell, but in a place of great happines. If they were not then in hell, Christ could not fetch them from thence. Wherfore it is a great vntruth, which the Li­beller hath vttered, that all the Fathers, yea Origen beleeued as wee doe, that Christ in soule descended into that part of hell which is called Limbus Patrum.

9. Ninthly, whereas it is affirmed, Sy­nops. [Page 110] p. 523. that there was no question about the reall presence for 1000. yeeres after Christ, till the time of Berengarius, who was sore trou­bled for maintaining the truth: Hereupon it is inferred, that the Church, till that time, gene­rally beleeued the Reall presence, before Be­rengarius taught the contrarie; otherwise how could he haue fallen into any troubles at all, if his doctrine had been consonant, to that which was receiued before, &c. p. 188.

Contra. 1. That till 1000. yeares after Christ, no other presence was held of Christ in the Sacrament, but spirituall to the faith of the worthie receiuer: neither that his bo­die and blood was otherwise eaten and drunke then by faith; & that the substances of the bread and wine, remained after conse­cration: it plencifully appeareth by the te­stimonies of Tertullian, Irenaeus, Augustine, Ambrose, Theodoret, Hesychius, Emissenus, Bede, Haymo, Bertram, Rabanus Maurus and others, cited by M. Fox p. 1137. and 1138. it were too long to bring them in speaking here: I desire the Reader to haue concourse thither.

2 We haue our aduersaries confession, Transub­stantiation and the Carnall presence, but new doctrines. for the antiquitie of this opinion: Decr. p. 3. dist. 2. c. 44. Non hoc corpus, quod videtis, man­ducaturi estis, &c. Ye shall not eate this bo­die, which yee see, nor drinke that blood, which they shall shed, that crucifie me, I haue [Page 111] commended vnto you a sacrament, which being spiritually vnderstood, shall quicken you. c. 48. Suo modo vocatur corpus Christi, cum reuera sit sacramentum corporis Christi: It is called the bodie of Christ after a certaine manner being in deed a sacrament of y ^e body of Christ. Dist. 4. c. 131. It is not to be doub­ted, but euery faithful mā, Corporis sanguinis (que) dominici participem fieri, quando in baptismate membrum Christi efficitur: To be made parta­ker of the bodie and blood of Christ, when in Baptisme he is made a member of Christ: so that Christ is as well present in Baptisme as in the Eucharist, which is not after a car­nall manner, but spirituallie. Twentie such places might be alleaged out of their owne decrees. Concerning transubstantiation also; Cuthbert Tonstal saith, Liberū fuit ante concili­um Lateranense: It was free before the Coun­cel of Lateran, and euery man was left to his owne coniecture. libr. 1. de Euchar. Cusanus saith: Quidam veteres theologi intellexisse repe­riuntur, &c. Certaine auncient diuines are found of this mind, that the bread in the Sa­crament is not transubstantiate, but clothed with a more noble substance: Excitat. libr. 6. How then is not the libeller ashamed to say, that the doctrine of the Reall presence was generally beleeued before Berengarius taught the contrarie?

3 At what time Berengarius impugned [Page 112] the Reall presence, certaine superstitious Monkes, as Lanfrancus, Guimondus, Algerius, Fulbertus, Hildebrand, held the contrarie, so that there was an opposition and partes ta­ken: then the Pope Leo the 6. (not Leo 9. for the figure is mistaken, and the Libellers skill did not serue him to correct it) anno 1049. tooke part with the Monkes and their Mon­kish opinion, and condemned the opinion of Berengarius: So did Nicolaus 2. that sucee­ded not long after, cause the said Berengarius to recant in a synod at Rome: ex Wilhel. Malmesburio de gest. Anglor. libr. 3. And this was the cause of Berengarius trouble, because he opposed himselfe not against the auncient doctrine of the Church, but against the new superstitious conceite of certaine Monkes, with whom these Popes tooke part for their aduantage. And this may appeare by the recantation of Berengarius reported by Gra­tiane, that he did hold the same faith, Quam Dominus & venerabilis Papa Nicolaus, & haec sancta synodus authoritate Euangelica & Apostolica tenendam tradidit: Which the Lord and venerable Pope Nicolas and this holy synode, by their Euangelicall and Apostoli­call authoritie, did deliuer to be held. De con­secrat. distin. 2. c. 42. This synode then was the first, that decreed the carnall presence.

4 Whereas Berengarius subscribeth to the fayth of Pope Nicholas: the bodie and the [Page 113] blood of Christ Sensualiter & in veritate ma­nibus The Pa­pists are fled from the Popes faith of the Carnall presence. sacerdotum tractari, frangi & fidelium dentibus atteri: To be sensiblie, and in truth handled by the Priests, and broken and rent with the teeth of the faithfull: how commeth it to passe, that the Papists are now fled from this faith? For Bellarmine dare not say, that the bodie of Christ is chawne and rent of the teeth, but the shewes and accidents of the bread and wine: de Euchar. lib. 3. c. 10. And the contrarie to this faith of Nicolas is allea­ged by Gratian out of Augustine dist. de con­secr. 2. c. 47. Quid paras dentes & ventrem? cre­de & manducasti: Why doe you prepare your teeth and belly? beleeue and you haue eaten.

Now let any man iudge, whether, as this challenger maketh his bragges, antiquitie stand soundly with the Papists in the doc­trine of prayer for the dead, inuocation of Saints, adoration of relikes, prohibition of mariage, Limbus patrum, the Carnall pre­sence: it falleth out vnto him, as Cato was [...]. wont to say: Qui ridiculis rebus seriam impen­derent operam, in serijs fore ridiculos: They which were serious in ridiculous matters, should be ridiculous in serious: so whereas in many friuolous obiections before this So­phister was very earnest, and layd on load, in this waightie contention about antiquitie, he hath made himselfe ridiculous. I wish ra­ther, that his eyes were opened, that he might [Page 114] see the nakednes of their religion, and how true antiquitie fauoureth them not. Thus by iustifying their errors, he doth adde vnto his fault, as Augustine saith: Nolens se esse reum, addit potius ad reatum, sua excusando peccata, ignorat non se poenam remouere sed veniam: He that will not be guiltie, doth adde to his guil­tines, and he little knoweth, that he doth not remoue the paine, but the pardon: de conti­nent. c. 5.

The Reconciliation.

FIrst it is dangerous (saith he) that whereas it is said that the children of the faithfull are holy euen before they be baptized: and so consequently can neuer fall out of Gods grace, it spurreth to all desperate villanie, as to too much experience hath taught vs.

Contra. 1. The Children of the faithfull are said to be holy, not in respect of their eternall election, as though all such were sure to bee saued, but in respect of the outward coueuant made to the Church: whereof they are mem­bers, [Page 115] being the seed of the faithfull: and ther­fore this is impertinently alleaged; and it is as simply inferred, that because the children of the faithfull are holie, as the Apostle saith 1. Corinth. 7. 14. Ergo, they cannot fall out of Gods grace.

2. Not the Protestants faithfull assurance of saluation, but popish religion spurreth some to all villanie, as this land hath had too wofull experience, in their conspiraci [...]s, trea­cheries, rebellions and traiterous practises both against their Prince and Countrey, though (God be thanked) they haue failed of their wicked hope. Assurance of saluation breedeth not carnal securitie, but godly care­fulnes, that they may walke worthie of their calling: as the Apostle saith, We are chosen in him, &c. that we should be holy, Ephes. 1. 4. And if Princes, that should giue securitie of their goods to their subiects, were able to guide their hearts, and keepe them in obedience, as God doth gouerne the elect, there were no daunger.

3. This disputer ignorantly confoundeth two questions: one of the certaintie of elec­tion before God, the other of the assurance thereof to our selues: the first is here affirmed and grounded vpō that text, Io [...]. 13. 1. Whom Election certaine. God loueth, he loueth to the end: which text he is neuer able to answere: and therefore win­deth himselfe to another matter of assurance [Page 116] of saluation: but that our election is certaine in Gods eternall decree, the popish Diuines themselues doe graunt, as Thomas Aquinas, Peter Lombard, Gratian, Espenceus, as they are alleaged Synops. pag. 824. and I know none of learning amongst them, that denie it, but this brabler, that euery where proclaimeth his owne ignorance.

Secondly, where that text is vrged, Ga­lath. 5. 4. Ye are euacuated from Christ, which are iustified by the law, ye are fallen from grace: to prooue that election may bee lost, the an­swere is soone made.

1. They which seeke for iustification by the law, are said to fall from grace, not of ele­ction before God, but in respect of their ap­parance vnto men, in losing and falling a­way from the meanes, which should bring them to saluation. As Ambrose saith writing Election certaine. vpon these words of the Lord to Moses, Exo­dus 32. 33. Him that sinneth, will I blot out of the booke of life: Secundum iustitiam iu­dicis tum deleri videntur, cum peccant; iuxta praescientiam verò nunquam in libro vitae fue­runt: In the iustice of the Iudge they then are said to be blotted out, when they sinne; but according to Gods prescience they were ne­uer in the booke of life: in 9. ad Roman.

2. Concerning Saul, I haue shewed be­fore, Saul neuer ele [...]ed be­fore God. that [...]ee was neuer elected before God, or truly iust: answer to the 11. vntruth: and [Page 101] you haue brought a goodly text to proue it: Saul was a choise young man and afaire, &c. higher by the shoulders, thē the children of Israel: Ergo, he was chosen before God: Ambrose saith, Qui credere videntur, & non permanent in fide, à Deo electi negantur, quia quos Deus e­ligit, apud se permanent: est etiam, qui ad tempus eligitur, sicut Saul & Iudas non de praescientia, sed de praesenti iustitia: They which seeme to beleeue, and continue not in faith, are de­nied to be elected of God, for whom God ele­cteth, doe continue with him: there is also, that is chosen for a time, as Saul and Iudas, not in Gods prescience, but in their present iustice: in 8. ad Roman.

3. Thirdly, the same answere we make to the supposed contradiction, that Adam was made subiect to euerlasting condemnation by his transgression, not before God, but in How the grace of God may be lost. respect of himselfe and his present state, be­cause by his sinne he had deserued it: he was subiect to damnation, ex merito suo, non ex de­creto Dei, by his desert, not by the decree of God: neither had he vtterly lost the grace of God to which hee was restored, but in part only in respect of his present feeling. As Da­uid saith, Psalm. 51. 12. Restore me to the ioy of saluation: hee had not lost his saluation, but the feeling, the ioy and comfort of it. As Am­brose saith: In terris quateris, in caelis possides: Thou art tossed and shaken in the earth, and [Page 118] yet doest possesse in heauen: de obit. Theo­dos.

The Reconciliation.

1. FIrst, to remoue the contradiction: in that it is said, they were taken vp aliue, or in their bodies into heauen: it is not meant that they went into heauen with their bodies, but that they were aliue in their bodies, when they were taken vp from the earth: so that the words must be read with a distinction; their being aliue, or in their bodies, must be re­ferred to the first clause, they were taken vp, not to the second, into heauen. Thus the Sophister vseth a fallacie, conioyning those things, which are to bee disioyned: As where it is said, Act. 1. 11. This Iesus, which is taken vp into heauen, shall so come, as ye haue seene him go in­to heauen: the words must not be taken in a ioynt sense, as though they did see Christ go­ing [Page 119] or entring into heauen, for a clowd took him frō their sight, v. 9. neither was that hea­uen, whither Christ went, euer seene with mortall eye: but the words must be distin­guished: they did onely see him goe, that is, taken from the earth, and going from them: As there is no contradiction in these words, that a clowd tooke him from their sight, and yet they saw him going into heauen, no more is there in the other.

2. Secondly, whereas the Libeller affir­meth, that Henoch and Elias are yet aliue in their bodies, but not in heauen, belike in the terrestriall paradise, as some haue thought, Rhem. in 11. Apocal. sect. 4. And that Henoch and Elias shall come in person in the time of Antichrist, I wil briefly shew how vncertaine both these opinions are.

First, that they are aliue in their bodies in Henoch and Elias not aliue in their bo­dies. paradise the Scripture sheweth not: that place Ecclesiastic. 44. 16. (which is scripture with them) that Henoch was translated into pa­radise, is corruptly translated: for the word paradise is not in the Greeke, as Pererius hath wel obserued, lib. 3. in Genes. qu. 5. Where that place is vrged, Matth. 11. vers. 11. Elias indeed shall come, or is to come: it is rather to be read, venturus erat, was for to come: so readeth Hentenius a Papist in Euthym. so the vulgar Latine translateth vers. 3. where Iohn sendeth this message to Christ: Art thou he, that art to [Page 120] come, without any sense, for Christ was come alreadie: it should be rather read, [...], which should come, or was to come.

2. The booke of Macchabees, which is Scripture with them, saith, 1. chap. 2. 58. Elias was taken vp, [...]: vsque, euen into heauen: which word, euen, importeth not his taking vp onely into the ayre, but into hea­uen indeede. Hierome saith that Henoch & Elias, mortis necessitate superata ita vt erant in corporibus de terrena conuersatione ad caelestia regna translati sunt: The necessitie of death being ouercome, as they were in their bo­dies, were translated from their terrene con­uersation to the celestiall kingdome. And of this opinion hee saith was Theodorus Hera­cleotes, tom. 4. Miner. & Alexand. that they were translated to heauen, we beleeue with Hierome, but not in their very bodies: there­in I preferre rather Origens opinion: Sicut ex mortuis primogenitus Christus, ita primus car­nem euexit in coelum: As Christ was the first borne of the dead, so he first caried his flesh into heauen, ex Pamphil.

3. Whereas he vrgeth that place Heb. 11. vers. 5. By faith was Enoch translated, that hee should not see death, to proue that he is yet a­liue: the Apostle onely sheweth, that he died not after the vsuall manner, and common condition; as they which shall be aliue at Christs comming shall not die, but they shal [Page 121] be changed, 1. Cor. 15. 51. which is a kinde of death. For otherwise how should that sen­tence of Scripture be verified, Heb. 9. 27. It is appointed vnto men, that they shall once die, that is, to all men: wherefore Henoch and Elias, though they died not a common death, yet were they chaunged, which was in steede of death vnto them.

4. Origen thinketh, that Elias descendens Paradise is Heauen. ad inferna, &c. did descend to hell, &c. Hom. 4. in Luc. Ambrose taketh paradise to bee hea­uen: Tum saluus fuero in paradiso cum coepero viuere inter electos angelos: Then I shall bee safe, when I shall liue in paradise among the elect Angels, serm. 15. in Psal. 119. If Henoch and Elias be in paradise, they are then in hea­uen.

Chrysostome Hom. 21. in Genes. If any man doe curiously aske into what place Henoch was translated, and whether hee doe liue to this present: discat non conuenire humanis men­tibus curiosius ea, quae à Deo fiunt, explorare: let him learne, that it is not fit for men curiously to search out those things which God doth: Hom. 21. in Genes. Augustine: Quid de Helia factum sit, nescimus, hoc de illo tamen credimus, quod verax scriptura testatur: What is become of Elias we know not, that we beleeue of him which the Scripture testifieth, cont. Faust. lib. 26. cap. 4.

Theodoret qu. 45. in Genes. dare not deter­mine [Page 122] into what place Henoch was transla­ted.

Rupertus, that Henoch was not translated into the terrestriall paradise, lib. 3. de trinitat. cap. 33.

Thomas affirmeth not, that Henoch and E­lias are in paradise, but with this addition, vt dicitur, vel creditur, as it is said, or beleeued; 1. par. qu. 103. ar. 2.

Iansenius a popish Bishop is of opinion, Henoch, Elias, not in the ter­restrial Pa­radise. that Henoch and Elias are not in the terre­striall paradise, in Comment. super cap. 143. concord. Euangelic. Of the same iudgement is Pererius a lesuite, lib. 3. in Genes. qu. 5.

Now for the second point, it is as vncer­taine out of the Fathers, that Henoch and E­lias shall come in person in the time of Anti­christ.

1. Cyprian saith: Nobis in spiritu & virtute Eliae non alium quam Ioannem solum, &c. The Angell and our Lord Christ doe insinuate none other to come in the power and spirit of Elias, but Iohn onely, de singular. Clericor. Likewise Origen: Vide fortassis si Ioannem bap­tistam possumus ponere in loco Eliae: See if hap­pily wee may not place Iohn Baptist in the place of Elias: in 11. ad Roman.

2. Concerning the two Prophets mentio­ned Of the two Prophets. Apocal. 11. in the Apocalypse chap. 11. Augustine vnderstandeth the two Testaments, and confuteth them, quiputant hos duos testes duos [Page 123] viros esse, which take these two witnesses for two men, &c. Beda also vnderstandeth the doctrine of the old and new Testament: Am­brosius Ausbertus, the holie Church in gene­rall in her preachers.

3. Victorinus vpon that place sheweth, that some vnderstand Helias and Moses, but he would haue it to be Ieremie. Hilarius con­tendeth they must be Moses and Helias. Iu­stinus thinketh not onely Henoch and Elias to be aliue, but also those whose bodies arose at the resurrection of Christ, qu. 85. ad Ortho­dox. Hippolytus will haue, not onely Henoch and Elias, but Iohn the Diuine also to come with them before the comming of Christ.

Now I referre it to the iudgement of the discreete Reader, whether this conceit of He­noch and Elias, be not more like to be a fable, then to haue any likelihood of truth, where­in there is such diuersitie of opinion, and vn­certaintie amongst the ancient writers. The Libeller bringeth foorth nothing but pain­ted papers and emptie Poticaries boxes: he hath painted his lines with the names of Fa­thers, but produceth not their testimonies: he setteth foorth no new stuffe, but the scra­pings of other mens platters. And as Flami­nius host at Chalcis, when he wondred at the multitude of the dishes, said vnto him, omnes carnes suillas, they were all but swines flesh, [...]. diuersly dressed: so this homely host entertai­neth [Page 124] his reader but with their wonted grosse meates, though he would shew in the new kind of dressing it, a piece of slouenly cooke­rie of his own: I say then vnto him, with Hie­rome: Aut profer meliores epulas & me conuiua vtere, aut qualicunque hac caenula nostra con­tentus esto: Either bring foorth better meate, and let me be one of your ghests, or els (pull downe your stomacke) and taste of my pro­uision. And I would that he, that first bid vs to eate of his swines dish (too grosse meate for a sound stomack) had grace to receiue the holesome meate that is presented to him for his health.

The Reconciliation.

FIrst, there is a difference betweene a true faith and a perfect faith: a true faith al­waies [Page 125] remaineth in the elect, though it be not alwaies a perfect and glorious faith: likewise a true faith is not alwaies a like effectuall or working, but yet alwaies accompanied with loue, though not in the same degree.

2. As then Dauid and Peters faith failed in these their sinnes, so also their charitie: but it therefore followeth not, that because in one act their faith and charitie failed, and in part was empaired, therefore it was wholie extinguished.

3. And that neither of them was giuen o­uer to a reprobate sense, it may appeare, be­cause Dauid vpon Nathans admonition re­pented, and Peter presently vpon his deniall went foorth and wept bitterly.

4. Wherefore your Logicke (sir Sophister) here faileth you, and you conclude weakely, from a part to the whole, that because their loue failed in part, it was wholy lost: was there no sparke of loue in Dauid neither to­ward Dauid and Peters faith not vtterly extingui­shed. God nor man, nor no goodnes left in Peter during their seuerall tentations? When the Moone is in decreasing, hath she lost all her light? the seede, that lieth all the winter buried in the earth, hath it no life in it? So the seede of faith and charitie alwaies remaineth in the faithfull, though not alike greene and flourishing. Because you (sir Cauiller) haue shewed your selfe at this time in slaundring and railing, an vnhonest man, shall I there­fore [Page 126] inferre, that there is no goodnes or ho­nestie left in you?

4. For Salomon the same answer wil serue, Salomons faith not wholy lost in his fall. that though in that hainous sinne of Idola­trie both his faith and loue failed, yet it was not generally or totally extinguished: as the Lord saith, 2. Sam. 7. 15. My mercie shall not de­part away from him: but where no faith nor loue is, there is no mercie. As mercie on Gods behalfe therfore did not vtterly depart from him: so neither in Salomon was faith quite rooted out: the seede of faith and loue lay buried in him, in that his heauie sleepe; and was afterward, by Gods grace awaked and reuiued. But how is it inferred, that vnlesse the fire of charitie were cleane put out in Sa­lomon, idolatrie must be a good worke and the louing of God? for this wicked act shew­eth a partiall and temporall failing of faith and charitie, not a totall or finall: was there, thinke you, no goodnes, vertue, iustice, wise­dome (the fruits of faith and charitie in Gods children) remaining in Salomon in the time of his fall? The contrarie is extant in Scrip­ture, Eccles. 2. 9. My wisedome remained with me, euen in the middest of his pleasure, the light of wisedome and knowledge was not extinguished in him.

5. Concerning Paul, we affirme, that hee was alwaies a member of the Catholike Church (as it comprehendeth the number of [Page 127] the predestinate) not onely when hee was a persecutor, but euen before he was borne, in respect of the foreknowledge and decree of God: yet was hee not then an actuall and present member of the Church, to the which faith is required: wherefore to dispute that Paul had no faith, when he was a persecutor, is a needlesse labour, for as yet he was not in act a member of the Church, neither had faith, before hee was called, and therefore could not lose, that, which he had not.

6. You blaspheme the Church of Gene­ua, A slaunder. and the Protestants, as though they should say or thinke, that adulterie, murther and idola­trie in the children of God, be no sinnes, but good workes, and fruites of faith, pag. 202. We are further off from iustifying vngodly workes, then Papists are: for they hold that some sins are veniall and pardonable in their owne na­ture: we affirme, that all sins in themselues, without Gods mercie, are mortall, that is, worthie of damnation: they say, that a iust man doth not sinne in his good workes, so much as venially. Synops. pag. 922. we hold that euen the best workes of the righteous are blemished with some infirmitie: they teach, that the motions of the flesh, though neuer so wicked, are not sinfull, if a man giue not any consent, Libel pag. 134. we professe, that the very euill concupiscence, though the will concurre not with it, is sinfull. Now let [Page 128] the world iudge, which of vs the Protestants, or Papists are furthest off, from allowing, or commending wicked workes.

7. But where you charge vs to say, that in The ver­tues of the Pagans, are no true vertues. Infidels to honour their parents, to fight for their countrie, be damnable sinnes, pag. 202. wee say with the Apostle, Whatsoeuer is not of faith is sin, Rom. 14. 23. which place Augustine vrged against the Pelagians, that iustified the glo­rious acts of the Pagans: and he further saith, Non officijs, sed finibus virtutes à vitijs discer­nendae sunt: That vertues are to be discerned from vices, not by the act but the end, contr. Iulian. libr. 4. cap. 3. And againe, Virtutes nisi quis ad Deum retulerit, vitia potius sunt, quam virtutes: Virtues, if they be not referred to God, are vices rather, then vertues, de ciuitat. Dei lib. 19. cap. 25. Wee condemne not then the good things, which are in Infidels, but their euill affections, whereby they corrupt that which is good: and so this point shall be concluded with that saying of Augustine: Colligitur, ipsa bona opera quae faciunt insideles, non ipsorum esse, sed illius, qui bene vtitur malis, ipsorum autem esse peccata, quibus bona male fa­ciunt: It is gathered then, that the good workes, which the Infidels do, are not theirs, but his, that vseth the euill well, but theirs are the sinnes, whereby they doe good things euill, con [...]. Iulian. 4. 3.

Now hauing refuted this Cauillers friuo­lous [Page 129] obiections, my leisure doth a little serue me to answere his iniurious speeches: and as for his particular taunts, of crowes, birds, and apes, foule puppies, pag. 201. such scoffers wee vouchsafe not an answere: but as Magas sent to Philemon threatning warre, dice and tenice balles; so wee doe rebound vpon this warlike challengers head, his popish bullet shot. But seeing he goeth further from mens persons to gall religion it selfe with his pro­phane iests, of Puritanical principles, and the regenerate generation of Geneua; this iniurie done to the Church of Christ I cannot passe ouer with silence. Wherein, as Hierome com­pareth Heluidius, hee is like to him that set Dianaes Temple on fire, Vt qui bene non pote­rat, male omnibus innotesceret, That he by euill doing might be famous to al, that by wel do­ing could not: so he in kindling a fire against the church of Christ, nobilis factus est in scelere, maketh himselfe famous in his euill doing. And like as Philoxenus and Gnato two glut­tons, did vse to blow their noses in the plat­ters, that no man should eate with them: so plaieth this trencher man in vomiting his gall vppon the table as it were of Christs Church, that all men might lothe it. Therfore seeing he spareth not to reuile the mother, the children must not thinke straunge to be euill spoken of: but wee say with Hierome: Illud dico maledicta tua mihi gloriae fore, cum eo­dem, [Page 130] quo Ecclesiae detraxisti, ore me laceres, & canina facundiam & (filius) pariter experiatur & mater: This I say, that your ray lings are a credit to mee, when with the same mouth, wherewith you derogate from the Church, you wound mee, and the sonne and mother together, do tast of your doggish eloquence: aduer. Heluid.

The Reconciliation.

1. IT is true, that faith cannot be sound and whole, where a man faileth in confessi­on: and therefore Peter, who lost his confes­sion as Bellarmine saith, was not sound and perfect in faith.

2. Where it is said, That Peter lost the con­fession [Page 131] of his faith, he might haue considered, that those words are vttered, ex confessione ad­uersarij, from the confession of the aduersa­rie, because Bellarmine saith, that Peter lost the confession of his faith, and not faith it selfe: but we say, though Peter failed in con­fession, yet he vtterly lost it not.

3. We confesse, that it must be a perfect faith, that is, working by loue and effectuall, that iustifieth vs before God, Galath. 5. 6. though no faith is simply and absolutely per­fect before God, but in a certaine measure: Then the obiection inferring a contradicti­on, if it conclude any thing, standeth thus: A perfect faith iustifieth before God; Peter was iustified by that faith, which hee had when he denied Christ, Ergo it was a perfect faith. The second part of this reason is vntrue, for Peter was iustified by his former faith wor­king by loue, and not by this imperfect and defectiue faith: his iustification in deed was not lost, which he formerly had obtayned by faith, but yet as his faith was weakened, so Peter lost not his iu­stification, though the feeling thereof was for a time suspend [...]d. his present feeling of his iustification for the time was suspended. It followeth not then, Peters iustification was not lost, when his faith was weake, Ergo, he was iustified by that weake faith: like as a mans life is not lost in his sicknes, yet he cannot be said to liue by his sicknes. But it will be said, that his iustifi­cation begun before, was vpheld and conti­nued [Page 132] still by the same faith. I graunt, that a perfect, that is, a working faith, doth perfect­ly iustifie, that is, doth both iustifie in the sight of God, and giueth a sense and feeling to the soule of the iustified: Rom. 5. 1. Being iustified by faith, wee are at peace with God. Now when faith is weakened, though our iustification stand firme before God, because the sub­stance and seede of faith remaineth, yet is it also weakened in our assurance and feeling, and so to our sense for the time as imperfect. This then prooueth not a perfect faith, when as our iustification remaining in substance, in working and feeling is not perfect. Your sil­lie argument then (sir Sophister) hath no good consequence. I perceiue your Logicke and Diuinitie are both much alike: but you are not so much to be blamed, as your master, that taught you no better: as Diogenes seeing an vnmanner lie boy, gaue his master a blow on the eare, that had instructed him no bet­ter. And as Hierome said of Iouinians elo­quence: Tam elinguis & sermonis putidi, vt magis misericordia dignus fuerit, quam inui­dia: His stile is so rude and so base, that he is to bee pitied rather then enuied: Dial. 1. ad­uers. Pelagian. Such is this detectors kinde of disputing (to speake nothing of his stile) that he hath more neede of pitie and compassion, then of any confutation.

4. But this contradiction in making Pe­ters [Page 133] faith perfect and imperfect, may better be returned vpon themselues: for Bellarmine saith, that Peter lost not his faith, but the cō ­fession onely, lib. 4. de Roman. pontif. cap. 8. And another saith, Petrus non fidem Christi, sed Contradi­ctions of Papists, a­bout Peters faith. Christum salua fide negauit: Peter denied not the faith of Christ, but he denied Christ, his faith remaining sound. Alan. Cop. If Peters faith were sound and whole still, then was it a perfect faith: but on the other side this stout champion affirmed, that Peter had no faith: What followeth (saith he) seeing Dauid commit­ted adulterie, and murther, and Peter denied his master, but that they had no faith? pag. 197. So Peter had a sound faith and yet no faith. Thus they agree like harpe and harrow together. But we say, that neither Peter had at this time a perfect faith, because hee failed in confes­sion, nor yet no faith, because Christ prayed his faith should not faile, Luk. 22. 32. but that, though his faith were shaken, yet the substance and seede remained still: as Theo­philact well sheweth in Luc. cap. 22. Quam­uis breui tempore concutiendus sis, habes recon­dita fidei femina: etiamsi folia abiecerit spiri­tus inuadentis, radix tamen viuet, & non defi­ [...]iet [...]ides [...]ua [...] Although for a while thou shalt be shaken, thou hast the seedes of faith laid vp in store: although the spirit of the temp­ter do [...] cast off the leaues, yet the roote shall liue, and thy faith not faile.

The Reconciliation.

1. FIrst the Apostle speaketh not of al kind What gifts are without repétance. of gifts, when he saith, the gifts of God are without repentance but such gifts as doe fol­low election, and accompanie speciall and effectuall vocation for of election the A­postle spake before [...] 8. As [...]ching elec­tion they are beloued for the father [...] and [Page 135] of vocation in this verse, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. The Apostle▪ then vnderstandeth not generall gifts, but the speciall graces of sanctification giuen to the elect, wherof faith is the principall. Thus Ambrose vnderstandeth the Apostle, epist. 8. Noueris Christi dona irreuocabilia, vt credas, quod semper credidisti, nec nimio moerore tuam in dubium adduc as sententiam: Know that the gifts of Christ are irreuocable, that thou maist beleeue, what thou hast alwaies belee­ued, and not with too much heauines make thy sentence doubtfull. He inferreth special­ly that faith is this irreuocable gift.

2. Secondly: 1. Where children are said to be holie euen before baptisme, it is not vnder­stood of such holines and sanctification as How chil­dren are [...]aid to be holy. followeth election, but because they are within the generall couenant, which God maketh to the faithfull and their seede: so that holines maketh not here a difference betweene the elect and not elect, but be­tweene the children of the faithfull and of Infidels: For if the one were not more holie then the other, why should they not be indif­ferently admitted to baptisme? which I think the grossest Papist will non graunt.

2. Neither do we say, that all the children of the faithfull are saued; that die vnbapti­zed (though in charitie wee are so to thinke) because they are within the couenant, and [Page 136] haue committed nothing, wherby they haue made themselues vnworthie of it) but that the want of baptisme is no impediment vnto such infants, as are within Gods gracious election: as the words doe expound them­selues, how can they possibly perish, though they die vnbaptized? So then infants are not by the want of baptisme depriued of their ele­ction.

3. But how followeth it, that all the Iewes that came of Abraham be infallibly saued? whereas the question is of those onely which the vnbaptized, which liued not to the yeers of discretion to receiue or refuse faith. But it will be againe obiected: All the children of the faithfull are holie, and once holie, alwaies holie, therefore they cannot choose but bee saued.

Ans. They are holie, as I said before, being the seede of the faithfull, not by any speciall sanctification, but by a generall vocation, being borne of faithfull parents, and so members of the visible Church, admitted to baptisme & other Sacraments of the Church. This externall holines and vocation may be lost: for when they come to yeeres of dis­cretion, and then shew themselues stubborne and refuse the holesome meanes of their cal­ling, they doe fall away: and so is verified that saying of our Sauiour, Many are called, but few are chosen. Some then are Loly by ele­ction, [Page 137] which cannot perish: others are holie Two kind [...] of holines, generall and speci­all. by vocation, which may be cast off. As Am­brose saith: Tu quidem Domine omnes cupis, sed non omnes curari volunt: Thou O Lord desi­rest all (in their generall calling) but all will not be cured. And againe he saith: Inter ge­neralia promissa &c. Deus quaedam à communi­bus excepta causis, occultiore nouit ordinare ra­tione: Among generall promises God excep­ting some from the common cause and con­dition, doth deale with them after a more se­cret manner, lib. 2. de vocat. Gent. cap. 1. So the generall promises are made to all the seede of the faithfull, but they are specially perfor­med onely to those which beleeue: Confirma­uit generalem bonitatem super vniuersos, &c. God hath confirmed his generall goodnes to all; but part of them, merito fidei diuinitus in­spiratae ad aeternam salurem specialibus beneficijs prouehitur, by the worthines of faith inspired by God, by speciall benefits is promoted to saluation: Ambros. lib. 2. de vocat. Gent. c. 10.

4. Thus then are the Cauillers frinolous objections answered concerning the salua­tion of the Iewes of Saul & Iudas, the Church of Rome: all these tasted of Gods generall goodnes in offering to them the externall meanes of saluation, but they wanted the speciall benefits of true sanctification, and effectuall vocation: Where the Libeller by the way is detected of falsehood, pag. 209. [Page 138] vrging eternall sanctification: which are words Falsehood. of his owne putting in: for where the chil­dren of the faithfull are said to be holie, eter­nall and internal holines and sanctification, is neither mentioned, nor yet intended, but the holines of their generall vocation.

5. Yea, saith he, Turks and Iewes also shal Vntruthes. bee saued, whose forefathers were faithfull Christians: yea, and the diuels also, which sometime were in Gods grace, pag. 210.

Ans. 1. Are Turkes and Iewes, I pray you, holy seede? or doth not the Apostle speake of such children, whose immediate parents were faithfull▪ 1. Cor. 7. 14. Els were your children vncleane but now are they holie. And are diuels in your diuinitie holie seede?

2. The Papists doe more incline to these Papists, not Protestants fauourers of infidels. grosse opinions of the sauing of Infidels and Diuels then Protestants: for concerning In­fidels▪ they hold, that they in part may be­leeue by their owne free will, Rhemist▪ Act. 13. sect. 1. and that their actions which seemed outwardly glorious▪ as in honouring their parents▪ in fighting for their countrie, and such like▪ were not sinfull: Rom. 14. sect. 4. contrarie to the Apostle, who saith, Whatsoe­uer is not of faith is sinne.

As touching Diuels: first, they doe forbid Doctrines of diuels. to marrie and abstaine from meates, which the Apostle▪ calleth, the doctrines of diuels, 2. Tim. 4. 3. Secondly, they hold that iustify­ing [Page 139] faith is a generall, or vniuersall beleeuing of the articles of Christs death and resurrec­tion, Rhemist. annot. Rom. 4. sect. 9. which is no other faith then such as diuels may haue, to beleeue the historicall truth of the articles of faith: for they beleeue and tremble, Iam. 2. 19. Now let any reasonable man iudge, whether Papists or Protestants haue a better opinion of the Diuels and Infidels. The fables of the deliuering of Plato and the Emperour Tra­ian out of hell at the prayers of Gregorie, and of Falconilla at the prayers of Tecla, are their dreames and deuices, and not ours. The first reported by Nicetas to be currant in the hi­stories of the Fathers, in commentar. ad secund. oration. Nazianzen de pasch: the other by for­ged Damascene, oration de defunct.

5. Now because this [...]errie companion maketh himselfe pretie sport with Balaams counsel to send women among the Israelites, with the virgins of the word in Cheshire (disciples of Master Haruie) as hee scornefully calleth them, that g [...]d▪ vp and downe the countrie to heare Preachers, &c. pag. 181. we will conti­nue this iest a little, and shew him his owne face in a [...] ▪

1. For [...]alamites info [...]nieation, and Baa­lites Who are most like to be Bala­mites. in idolatrie, let popish sectaries carrie the bell. Doe▪ ye thinke wee haue forgotten what cleane birds, both cockes and hennes, were found▪ in the Abbey nests, in England [Page 140] at the suppression thereof? I say with Am­brose: Malim falsum crimen subire, quam ve­rum referre: I had rather beare a false crime, then bewray a true, epistol. 44. Or think you, we know not what your owne writers testi­fie of the chastitie of your Clergie: as Consti­tution. Othon. in gloss. Clerici huiusmodi concu­binas tenent communiter apparatu honesto nomi­ne appellationis sororiae: Priests commonlie keepe such concubines in honest apparell, vnder the name of sisters. And in the same place: Videtur, quod hoc crimen meretricij ec­clesia sub dissimulatione transire debeat: It see­meth good, that the church should dissemble and to passe ouer the crime of whoredome. These are more worthie the name of Bala­mites, then those whom you slaunder.

One of your late Councels thus complai­neth: Videmus monasteria mulierum in pleris (que) locis in suspectas de int [...]m inentia domos, ne quid grauius dieam esse commutata: We see the mo­nasteries of women in most places to bee chaunged into suspected hou [...]es of inconti­nency, to speake no worse of them: Coloniens. part. 10. cap. 9.

2. As for Master Har [...]ie, though I know him not, I iudge him the honester man for your unliking him. For as Diogenes said to [...]. one that railed vpon him, Neither would any man beleeue me, if I praised you, nor you in dis­praising of me: so I thinke your discommen­ding [Page 141] of the Ministers of the Gospell, will bee of no more credit with the wise and discreet, then if I should commend you for an honest man, whom I know not. Your spite and en­uie is most against those that labour in the Gospel, and striue against your superstitious doctrines: but God that hath hitherto streng­thened vs, will I trust open our mouthes yet wider, to crie out against your abomina­tions.

3. It grieueth you, that women should be giuen to heare sermons, and to sing Psalmes: and I doe not marueile at it, for if you might haue your minde, both men and women should be as blind as beetles. You are like those, that Hierome speaketh of: Quam vide­rint pallentem & tristem, miseram & Manicheā vocant: If they see a woman pale and sor­rowfull, they count her miserable and a Ma­nichee: ad Eustoch. So doe you those women, that desire by the Gospell to be brought to true sorrow and repentance for their sinne. And doe you mislike, that deuout women should be well affected to the Ministers of the Gospell, and minister to their necessities againe? I will answere you with Hierome: Mulieres ministrant saluatori de substantia sua; ille qui de quinque panibus millia hominum pauit, escas sanctarum mulierum non recusat accipere: The women minister to our Sauiour of their substance, and hee that with fiue [Page 142] loaues fed thousands, refused not to receiue the prouision of women: ad Princip. It may be thought, if this disciple of Rome had then liued, hee would haue carped at our blessed Sauiour and his disciples, because they suffe­red women to resort to their Sermons, and to minister vnto them.

Thus haue wee taken a view of his suppo­sed contradictions, the third chapter fol­loweth of this goodlie treatise contai­ning pretended falsifications: I make no doubt but to hold him here also at the staues end, that he shall not fasten a blow: for wee feare not his slanderous tongue: as Chabrias said, A weake mans strokes, and an vnwise mans [...]. threats are not to be feared. And as Hierome saith: Possum omnes propositionum riuulos vno Ecclesiae. veritatis sole siccare: I can drie vp the streame of his obiections with the sunne of the truth.