The firste parte of the Christian Instruction, and generall sōme of the doctrine, conteyned in the holy Scriptures, wherein the principall pointes of the Religion are familiarly handled by Dialogues, very necessary to be read of all Christi­ans. Translated into Englishe, by Iohn Shute, ac­cordyng to the late Copy set forth, by th' author Maister Peter Viret.

1565.

Ouersene and perused, accordyng to the order appointed, by the Queenes maiesties Iniunctions.

2. Timothe. 3.

Al Scripture diuinely inspired of God, is profitable for doctrine, to improue, to amend, and to instruct in righteous­nes, that the man of God may be perfecte, and prepared vnto all good worckes.

No man that layeth hys hande to the plow and looketh behind hym, is meete for the kyngdome of God. Luke. 9.

HONI SOIT QVI MAL Y PENSE

Imprinted at London, by Iohn Day, dvvellyng ouer Aldersgate, beneath Saint Martins.

❧ To the honorable the Lord Ro­bert Dudley, Baron of Denbigh, Earle of Licester, Maister of her Maiesties horse, and knight of th' order: and one of her highnes preuye Councel. Iohn Shute, vvisheth health vvith increase of honor and Godly vnderstandyng,

WHen Hanniball a manifold wintered souldiour, a Generall of meruelous iudgement and worthines had giuen eare a while to Phormiō y e Philosopher, discoursing before him of martiall matters, the duty of a Generall and office of ech man y t commeth to field: beyng demaunded at length what he thought of him, whome the Lippewise men estemed the wysest and learnedst of the worlde, aunswered: that fooles he had heard many, but a more dotyng foole then this Phormion was, he neuer heard. It semed to him very straunge, that he whiche neuer went further then the scoole, neuer fought but with the rod, shoulde giue preceptes to hym that had spent all his life in martiall affaires, obtained moe vistories then he had red ouerthrowes. And may it not (right honorable) seme as straunge to your good Lordship, and be dee­med of some others, as greate dotage for me a simple souldior better practised abrode in martiall matters, then furnished at home with cunnyng of the scoole: to deale with matters of hie diuinitie? But I take not vpon me to teache of my selfe: but to translate out of others, nor do I meane to bragge of any skill, but to [Page] testifie my good will employed to profite others: yet do I not thincke it a matter vnmeete for my profes­sion and callyng, to knowe the truthe of Gods holy worde, and to further in the same as many as I may. For requisite it is (as your honor and wisedome right well vnderstandeth) all Christians to knowe their God: further if they will be the children of his king­dome to worcke through obedience to his will as the Apostle sayth: their owne saluation with trembling and with feare. A souldior is not excluded from this band, he must needes in this battell keepe his order [...]hil. [...] and do (by grace) his vttermost endeuoure: leaste the muster maister, Christe do casse him, and so [...]osuc, 7 with great reproche deualize hym. VVe read that for a litle pilfering of a common souldior, the whole armie of the Lorde was in daunger and lyke to haue ben defeacted, But the blasphemie, incōtinency, out­rage, and suche lyke that in many countreis, in the warres in our dayes are vsed: are in deede a great oc­casion to procure and purchase those dreadfull pla­gues, whiche we often see light vpon nations. VVherfore that we may continew in quiet peace, & whē oc­casion shall require, obtaine Godly victories, expedi­ent it wer, and for my countreys sake I wish, that our souldiors may be well instructed, in the knowledge and feare of God: so much the rather, for that their [Page] lyfe is doubly incertaine. Anacharsis thought saylers and such as trauayle by sea, to be rather of the nōber of the dead, then of the liuing: by cause that he which is in most assuraunce, is alwaye within eight or ten ynches of his death. And is not a souldior euery mo­ment of an houre more nere his bane, amyd so many great shotte, samll shot and other weapons? VVher­fore it were good, not onely for the parties them sel­ues, but also for all Christian cōmon wealthes, if they whiche are called to serue in warres, were well in­structed in the knowledge & fear of God, as god be thāked some of thē are, I would thinck my self sure­rer in the company of fiue hūdred well trayned soul­diors, whiche were instructed in the feare and loue of God: then in that of xv. hundred whiche are as well trayned and exercised in the vse of their wea­pons as they, and doe want the other chief instructi­on. And for my parte beyng a simple one, am not ashamed to be exercised in the study of Gods booke: no more, then to be in the fielde exercised, in the vse of any weapō or order, although my studie in it be not such as I wish it to be: yet hauyng receiued great profite & cōfort of conscience, by reding of sondrie wor­kes of diuinitie: and namely by the readyng of a worcke of Maister Peter Viret, intituled the Chri­stian instruction, I would not bereaue my countrey [Page] mē the commoditie of the same: but thought my selfe bounde in conscience to make them partakers ther­of. VVherfore hauing translated the first parte of it into our tounge with boystrous and rude termes, as a man vtterly voyde of eloquence: I haue committed the same to the printe, and so farre presumed vpon your honours goodnes, as vnder your Lordshippes name to suffer it to come to the sight of others. May it please you, to accepte this simple token of my tra­uaile & poore good will towardes your honor. I dout not but some shall receiue such fruite of it, as they shall like well my labour, and pray for your Lord­ship, vnder whose name it is published. And so shall my desire in Christ be satisfied. God prosper your ho­nor in health and high estate. God encrease his faith and his feare, in you. Right honorable I haue added in the end of this worke, a table contayning the principall matters, that are entreated of, in this worke, to the end that men may the more easily find them. God defend you and preserue you.

❧ John Shute, to the faithfull reader, Grace mercy, and peace from God the father, thorowe our Lord Iesus Christ.

COnsiderynge that God requi­reth no more of man, for his innumerable benefites (which he hath & doth from time to tyme bestow vpon him) but onely frāck obedience, the whiche he can no wise yelde duely vnto him, except he knowe him, and he can not know him but by his word, and for that ther be many aduersaries at this day, who will not haue men to deale with the word of God, nor to receiue any Religion, but such as shall be giuen vnto them by generall Councels: I haue thoght good to turn into y • English toūg this litle worke, framed by the right famous, worthy & god­ly learned man, M. Peter Viret: wherin you may see what cōmoditie the Church of God, hath reapt from time to time, of the Decrees and determinations of generall Councels, & of the ordinaunces & decretalles of Popes. And bycause that a number of these whiche so greatly reuerence Councels are Atheistes and Epicuriens, saying in their hartes there is no God, and do scoffe and fleere at the word of God, being ouer well sene in the principles of the Popes diuinitie, which say that there is no God, and that all that euer is spoken of Ie­sus Christ is but fables, and the whole Scriptures lyes, as by their lyues right well they do declare. And least that any should thincke that I speake this of malice and without prouing any thing, I thincke it not amisse somwhat to say of the vertuous actes of these worthy fathers, who haue bene the heades of a nomber of general Councels, & haue there ruled the roste, by their holy Ghost, whom they haue there had at theyr owne will and pleasure. The Pope Alexander the vi. deuising on a tyme with the Frēch kings Ambassadour sayd Note the good actes of Popes, Reade the life of this Alexander in Io. ba, act Romanorū ▪ Pontificum▪ vnto him these wordes: That fable of Iesus Chryste hath brought to vs great riches. Besides this H [...]eronimus Marius, in hys worcke intituled Eusebius Captiuus, speakynge of this Pope Alexander the vi. sayth of him among other thynges: what nedeth it to recite the abominable and detestable actes of Alexāder the vi. This Alexāder when he had made an a­liaunce with deuils, he gaue him selfe wholly vnto them and became their subiect, to the end that by their meane he might [Page] attaine to the Papall dignitie, whiche thyng they promised & did fulfill: after that he gouerned him selfe in so holy a sorte that afterwarde durynge his lyfe he neuer entreprised any thynge, without their counsell. There are manye thinges in writyng, whiche are very notable, and worthy of a Pope of Rome and successor of S. Peter: for there are in the Latin certaine excellent verses and very worthy to be noted, which set forth very well the prayses of this most holy father, the sence wherof doth folow here. Alexander selleth Crosses, al­tares yea & Iesus Christ him self: first he bought thē, wher­fore, he may well sell them. Rome passeth on from one vice to an other, and from the flame to the fire vnder the gouern­ement of this Spaniarde, Tarquinius, was the vi. kyng of the Romanes, Nero the vi. Emperour. And this the sixte of his name. Rome hath euer ben plagued vnder those sixtes: this Alexander caused Gemma (who was fled to Rome for succor, beyng brother to Baiazet Emperor of Turckie) to be poisoned for the som of CC. M. Ducates, whiche he receiued of the sayd Baiazet. This Alexander to maintayne his tyranny, called to his ayde Baiazet Emperour of the Turckes a­gaynst the French kyng Charles the viii & enforced hym self by al meanes possible to make the realm of Naples, yea and the very Citie of Rome it self, the frontieres of y e Turckysh Empire: he caused the toong [...] and hands of Antonie Manci­uell, a man meruelously well learned to be cut of, bycause he had writen an Oration, very elegantly agaynst the wicked maners & most abhominable and villanous lyfe of the sayde Pope. On a time this pope made a very sumptuous bāquet, in the whiche he had commaunded to gyue to drinke, to cer­taine riche Senators and Cardinals, whom he had conuited thyther, of a flagon tempered with poyson, & his taster mis­takyng the flagon: gane hym to drincke of the same flagon, whereof he dyed with those Senators and Cardinals, thys Alexander, as soone as he was Cardinal, became a Negro­mancer, coūselled with deuils whom he had familiar, if they wold be so gratious vnto him (who was their obediēt vassal & humble disciple) as to help hym in his practise & sute which he made for the Papal dignitie: wherunto they frāckly graū ted, conditionally that he should make solēne othe in the preseuce of y e prince of darcknes, y • he should shew hym selfe an assured protectour of Satan, & hys infernall cōmon wealth: [Page] whereunto the Cardinall assented. Onely requiryng that whē this homage and othe should be gyuen: it would please the deuill not to appeare vnto hym in his hydeous and feare full forme, but rather in mans shape in the likenes of a Prothonotarie, whiche thyng beyng graunted, at a day appoin­ted: in the sommer tyme, the Cardinall conueyed him selfe secretly alon [...] into a chamber in a certayne place called mount Cauallus, and there came vnto him my Lord the Prothonota­rie, beyng a man of a meane age very honorably apparelled, who after certayne deuise and discourse hadde, assured him, that he should be Pope, who beyng then full of ioy enquired of the tyme, and how long he should raygne. This reuerend prothonotarie made hym a deceptiue aūswere, full of doubt­fulnes, to wit that he should raigne xi. and viii. the Cardinal foolishly persuaded him self that he should raygne in the Papall dignitie. 19. yeares, albeit that the promes was but for xi. yeares and. 8. monethes when Innocent the. 8. was dead Rodericke Borgia was created and established Pope, who forthwith named hym selfe Alexander the vi. now he did for the space of. 11. yeares and 8. monethes meruelously trouble and oppresse Italie, he beyng old began to be diseased & sicke wherupon he kept his bed, and commaunded one of his ser­uauntes named Modena (who was most priuy and familiar with hym of al those of hys Court) to go into his garde robe and to bryng hym a litle booke richly set, with gold and pre­cious stones: which was in a certaine boxe or drawer, which he appointed hym vnto. This litle booke contayned all the sortes and kyndes of illusions and enchauntements of Ne­gromancie, where at, this old man determined to enquire & to assertaine him selfe, of the ende and closyng vp of his lyfe: this seruaunt accordyng to the commaundement of his mai­ster, went to the place, and as he was entryng in at the dore of the chamber, he saw one fit in the Popes chaire, who was very lyke vnto hys maister, which when he saw (beyng hor­ribly affrayd) returned and ran to his maister, without bringyng the boke with hym, to whom he declared what he had sene: which thyng when the Pope vnderstood fully, and saw his seruaunt so affrayed: he let hym alone for a tyme, after­warde he so wrought with hym, that he caused hym to go a­gayne to hys garde robe, to see if he could espie the aforesayd Pope: & whether he would say any thyng to hym or no. The [Page] seruaunt beyng entred into the chamber agayne, found there hym whom he had sene there before but he was far greater: he that sat asked hym, why he came thyther, and what he had to do there: who beynge excedyngly affrayde & in maner out of breath, aunswered, that he came for a certayne garment for the Pope, Then the deuill cast forth an horrible grone, & sayd to hym, what Pope? I am Pepe my self. when Alexāder vnderstood this, hys maladie encreased, & his death approched. Shortly after one appareled lyke a courtier, came to the chā ber where the Pope laye, and knocked very lowdly, saying that he must nedes speake with hym. The doore beyng ope­ned vnto hym, he came and spake with the Pope, all others wer retired from them. The Pope and he talked very secret­ly, but mē might se be their coūtenances, that they wer very earnest and in great contention betwene them selues, & that the Pope was not well cōtent, for he sayd to hym: how may this be? my tyme is not yet expired, thou knowst that I had 19. yeares, wherof I haue passed but. 11. & 8. monethes. wher upon they heard the courtier aunswere hym boldly, you dyd mistake that worde, for I sayd not. 19. yeares, but I ment. 11. yeares and 8. monethes, should be the raigns of thy Papacy, and therfore thou must needes dye. Now albeit the Pope requested instantly, that he would haue consideration of hys lyfe, and terme of yeares concernyng hys Papacy: it was as if he had spokē to a deafe man, for al hys exceptiōs, requestes and allegations could stand hym in no stede: for al that were in the chamber might well see, that the deuill was more per­fect in Arithmetique, then was the Pope, and in the ende it was easyly cōcluded that Alexander had erred in hys accōp­tes. Finally to cōclude the matter, when Satan departed frō thēce, forthwith the soule of the Pope: most miserably departed frō hys body, with horrible cryes and feareful gronyngs and bewaylyngs. And in this sort most miserably, wretched­ly and wickedly, dyed the Pope Alexander, surnamed the 6. leauyng to hys sonne his patrimonie, greatly engayged and encombred, & the Italians theyr Romane common wealth, wholly confused disordered and spoyled, to the end he might be an example, to all ages to declare how that thynges euyll goten are consumed & spent miserably & wickedly, [...]ontanus writeth that thy [...] Pope, had a daughter whō hys sonne dyd vse and so dyd the Pope hym selfe, her name was Lucresse, [Page] Sanazarius, the Italian Poete, in hys Epigrames and 2. boke speakyng of this Pope Alexander & notyng hys incest, sayth thus. O Lucresse, will Alexander yet still couet thee? O hor­rible case, he is thy father. In the worcke intituled l'Estat do l'Eglise, it is writen of this Pope Alexander, that not only he dyd vse hys daughter Lucresse, but hys sonne dyd the lyke, wherupon she is called his wife, his daughter, and daughter in law. &c. Vrspergensis noteth of Bregory the. 7. otherwise named Hildebrand, that the common wealth of Rome, and the Churche was in great daunger vnder him, by meanes of er­rors and new Scismes, whiche were neuer heard of before, & that he dyd vsurpe the Papall seat by tyranny, & not be law­full election. The Councell holden at wormes, in the yeare. 1080. sayth of Gregory the. 7. that it is certayne that he was not chosen of God, but that he dyd shamefully thrust him self in by disceate and money, and did turne vp syde downe the order of the Churche, and troubled the state of the Christian Empire, and framed the destruction of both the body & soule of the Catholicke kyng, and dyd defend the periured kyng, & dyd sow discord among such as did accord, and strife among the quiet, offences among the brethren, diuorce among the maried, and sturred vp and chaunged all thinges that might tend to quietnes among such as were of honest lyfe. we therfore beyng gathered together by God agaynst the sayd Hil­debrand, who preached nothyng but sacrileges & fires, main tayned the periured and murderers, and brought the vniuer fall and Apostolicke fayth of the body and bloud of the Lord into doubt, being an obseruer of diuinations and dreames, & an open Nigromancer, hauing a familiar spirit, and leauing in this sorte the true fayth, we iudge that he ought by lawful auctoritie to be deposed, driuen frō his seat, and perpetually condēpned, if he leaue not hys seat when he shal vnderstand these thyngs. I refer such as wil vnderstād more of the said Gregory to the readyng of the Cardinal Benno, hys worcke, wherin the lyfe of the sayd Gregory is set forth. Moreouer I wish them in Platina. to consider the lyues of Iohn the. 8. Siluester, Bennet the. 8. with many others. Also in Sabellicus, in hys. 9. Eneide and first and 2. booke, where they shall see of the Popes afore writē. Also in the Cōmentaries of that worthy mā Iohn Sleydan in hys. 21. boke, where he mencioneth of an Italian, whiche wrote a booke very sharpely agaynste [Page] Paul the. 3. namyng hym therin Antechrist, declaring that in the tyme of Innocent the Pope he was committed to prison beyng a wicked prelat for if murders, and for the poysoning of his mother, & his nephew, wherby the inheritaunce might come to hym further, after that he was deliuered out of prisō he made great fute for a Hatte of a Cardinall, and was three tymes refused by the Cardinals: in the end his sister Iulia Fernese, obtayned it. For she threatned the Pope Alexāder the. 6. that frō that time forth, she would neuer be at his cōmaund­ment, the Pope fearing her displeasure accepted him into the troupe of Cardinals: further, that he poysoned an other sister of hys, and vsed an other of them, and also his nee [...]e and hys own daughter, and for that that he would the more liberally enioye her, he found the meane to poyson her husband Bose Sforce: he was also a great Nigromācer, as witnesseth Sleidan in his Cōmentaries and. 19. booke, & Iohn Bale, in the lyfe of the said Paul the 3. in his act. Roma Pontificum, wher he fully declareth the vertues of him. Let vs see one mo among a great nōber of these reuerend fathers, Clemēt the. 8. of that name borne in Florence, bastarde to Leo the. 10. (his nephew I should say) named before Iulius, Cardinal Priest of the title of S. Laurēce in Damase. &c. It is writen of him in certaine Cōmētaries vpon the articles of the Doctors of Paris, that this Clemēt was a bastard, empoysoner, homicide, bawd, si­moniaque, Sodomit, periured, whoremaster, negromancer. Church robber, and a worker of all wickednes. &c. Such as wil vnderstād more of the goodnes & of the lyues of such holy fathers, I referre thē to the readyng of the Florentine hy­story of Machiauell, let them read Volateran. Sabellicus, Platina Iohn Bale act. Rom. pont. Iohn le Maire in hys woorke of Scismes, the sea of histories. Fascicul. tēp. Naucle. supplimēt. chro. with a nomber of others, whō for briefty I do omitte. Truly these fathers ar iolly folowers of Christ, who ought chiefly to be folowed, he sent his Apostles abrode into the world commaundyng thē to preache the Gospell to all men, and to A comparisō betvvene Christ & the Pope baptize in the name of the father, the sonne & the holy ghost, &c. the Pope commaūdeth hys to hallow Churches, water, bread, oyle, belles, chalices, grene bowghes, candles with such lyke traishe, & to sing Masses for the liuyng, and for the dead, and to apply them to sondry vses, but the pulpit is not greatly encumbred with them, and whē they do preach, they [Page] preach nothyng els but lyes, as their owne dreames, phau­tasies, Legenda aurea, a Scripture of their owne inspiration, & theyr owne traditions, decrees, and ordinaunces. Christ or­deined onely two Sacramētes, which two they haue corrupted and added to thē fiue, bycause that Christ did not so well know what is meete for his Church as they do, O horrible Gene, 2 presumption. God him selfe when he had created man in Paradise, sayd: It is not good that man be alone, we will make i, Cor, 7 hym a helper. The Apostle s. Paul saith: It is good for a mā not to touche a woman, yet to auoyde fornication, let euery man haue his owne wife, & euery woman her own husband. Heb, 13, [...] The Apostle saith, mariage is honorable among al mē & the bed vndefiled: but God will iudge the whore masters and a­dulterers, these wordes are generall and haue regarde to all men and to all estates. Iesus Christ did not onely alow ma­riage: but did also honor it with his presence In Cana of Gali­lee. S. Augustine in hys treatise of the goodnes of mariage sayth, in his. 21. Chap. that he dare not preferre the virginity of S. Iohn, before the mariage of Abraham. S. Ambrose in hys first booke sayth. Touching virgins S. Paule sayth. I haue no cōmaundmēt of the Lord, but I do coūsel or aduise, if the doctor of the Gentils had no commaundemēt, who is he that might haue any? And truly he had no cōmaundment, but he did counsell therunto, for virginitie can not be cōmaū ded, it may wel be desired, for that which is not in our pow­er is not to be cōmaūded, but it is to be wished for. Origens vpō S. Mathew in his. 24. Homelie sayth. That they which do forbid men to marry, do enforce thē to a licentious villeni forbiddyng that which is expediēt. The like he sayth of those that cōmaund abstinence from meates, and such lyke, where vnto the faithfull may in no wise be cōstrained, he sayth that they lay he any burdens, on the shoulders of men cōtrary to the wil of Christ: who sayth, My yoke is pleasant & my bur­then light & easy. &c. Eusebius in hys Ecclesiasticall historie. 3. boke. 30. cha. reciteth, that S. Clement writyng against such as did condempne mariage, among other thynges sayth, wil they reproue the Apostles: S. Peter had a wife. So had Philippe, Paul also had a wife, as appeareth by one of hys Epi­stles, in the whiche he is not ashamed, to send salutations to her: whom he sayth he would not carry about the countrey with him, bycause he would be the more ready to preach the [Page] Gospell. Many of the auncient fathers were maried as Pa­triarkes, Prophetes, and Bishops of the primitiue Church. Yet is not the Pope affrayde to say (and stand agaynst God and Christ) that mariage is vnclennes, pollution and carnal filthynes, as it is said in the. 4. of the sentēces. Dist c. 17. chap. 4. and his decret. 27. Quest. 2. chap. whiche begynneth. Cum so­cietas Tertulian in his prescriptions agaynst the heretikes, sayth. It is not in our power or choise lawful▪ to bring in, to chuse or alledge for authoritie, that whiche any other hath brought in, or alledged for hys own pleasure: for we haue the Apostles of the Lord for our authors, who haue brought in nothing for theyr own pleasure▪ nor any new thing, but haue faithfully preached and taught to the nations, that discipline which they receyued of Christ S. Augustine vpon S. Iohn in the. 46. treatise and. 10. chap. sayth, if they whiche sit in the chaire of Moses do teache the lawe of God, it doth then fo­lowe that God teacheth by them: but if they will teache any thyng of theyr owne, heare them not, nor yet do it. &c. And in the. 6. against Faustus. chap. 16. & in the. 18. booke. chap. 12. doth cal by the wordes of Christ (not onely false Prophetes but also theeues and murderers) all such as dare preach any other thing to the people of God, thē the Canonical Scriptures: & against such he alledgeth the saying of Christ, al those y • came before me, are theeues & murderers, S. Paul in his. 1. Epistle to the Galathiās doth accurs [...]e him, that bringeth any other doctrine thē that which he hath taught, yea if it wer an Aū ­gell of heauen. Further in hys Epistle he sayth, that whiche I receyued of the Lord, the same also deliuer I vnto you. &c. It is not so with these men, of whom we haue alreadie spo­ken, they deliuer vnto vs their own traditions, inuentions and dreames in the stead of the worde of God. And I doubt not (although these men haue nothing in their mouthes but the fathers, the fathers which must authorise the scriptures vnto thē) if the fathers liued in these daies, but they wold be as readye to persecute them as they are to persecute those which in these dayes do professe Christ. Let it be seene, how many of them were which suffered in the late tyme of theyr late persecution that did denie any one article of the Christi­an fayth, but they did by Gods grace most costantly affirme them, euen sealing them vp with their bloud: examine Theo­doret, Epiphanius and Augustine, Fathers of great holynes and [Page] doctrine, who haue largely written of heresyes, and let it be seene whether they maintained any one of those which they cite, no not one: let vs see how many Arrians, Anabaptistes Pelagians, Marcionistes, Nestorians, Ebionistes, or any other kind of heretikes they did then execute. I suppose the number wil appeare very smal, for they are al in leage with Sathan. I doubt, not but (if the Gospell had as fatte a smo­king kitchin tyed vnto it, as haue the Romyshe rytes) we should haue a great number of Gospellers: for this kitchin Seducers of the people is of great effecte among the Romanistes. S. Chrisostome vpon S. Mathew in his. 48. Homelie. chap. 24. sayth thus: There are some which do greatly seduce through lyes & vn­trouthes, they preach Christ, they teach the fayth, they haue also churches, orders and elders as the faythfull haue. They do also read the Scriptures of God, it semeth that they geue the same baptisme and the sacrament of the bodye and bloud of Iesus Christ, likewise they honour the Apostles & Mar­tyrs, and by these meanes they do greatly abuse the vnder­standing, not only of the simple, but also of such as are wise. who shall he be that Antichrist shall not be able to shake or moue? partlye doing the workes of Christ, and the antichri­stians, fulfilling in a sorte the dueties of christians, vnlesse it be peraduenture such an one as doth consider that which the Apostle sayth: if Sathan can transforme himself into an An­gell of lyght, is it then a greate matter for hys ministers to be transformed lyke to the minister of iustice? whose end shal be according to their workes and not according to their fay­ned show of Christianitie. S. Hierom vpon the. 9 cha. of the Prophet Osee fayth: I do no [...] fynde by the aūcient hystories that any other haue deuided the Church, and seduced the people of the houshould of God, but onely the Priestes and Prelates, whom God hath appoynted to be the spialles & watch mē for the Christiās against y • enemies of the church S. Ber­nard in hys Appologie, to williā the Abbot sayth. The wals of the Church do shyne, but the pore are in distresse, the stone Wherof the church con­s [...]steth. workes of her, are clothed with gold, but she leaueth her children naked. Isichius vpon Leuiticus. boke. 4. chap. the. 14. sayth They may well bee called the deckyng of the house that doo maintaine it: to witte those orders of men, whiche teach godlynes or godly thynges, for of suche is the Churche made in dede, and not (as many do thinck [...]) of wood and stones. [Page] And therfore when in the olde tyme it was commaunded to assemble the church, Moyses did not bring together tymber, stones and such like, but the people, the elders & the Leuits. Saint Chrysostome of his resignatiō or banishment, Hom. 20 sayth. The church consisteth not of walles, but of the multi­tude of good people. S. Bernard vpon the Cantique [...] in his 33. sermon sayth: Now, from whom shal the church hyde her The cōplaīt of Bernard. self, all are frendes and all are enemyes, all are allies and all are aduersaries, al are of the houshold, and none is at quiet, al are neighbours, and euery mā seketh his own profit, they are the ministers of Christ & serue Antichrist, they walke in honour with the goods of the Lorde, & yet they honour not the Lord, frō thence cōmeth that beautie of the whore which thou dayly doest see, clothed as players of staige playes, ap­parelled as a king: of this thou seest the golde vpon their brydles, fadles and spurres, of this are the tables furnyshed with meates and vessells, of this are the dronkennesies and gluttonies, of this proceedeth the harpe & viall, from thence are the flowing wine presses, & the ful sellers: the one equall with the other, of this are the litle boxes and pottes full of swete oyntmentes and sauours, of this are their pursses fil­led, for this cause wil they be, & ar the princes of the Church, the Prouostes, the Deanes, the Archdeacons, the Byshops and the Archbishops, and such things come not lawfully to passe, but because they walke in the affaires of darknes, heretofore it hath bene spoken of and nowe is the time come and fulfilled. Beholde in peace my bitternes is very bitter. It Esay, 38. d hath beene heretofore bitter in the death of the Martyrs, af­ter that more bitter in the controuersies of the heretiques, & now it is most bitter in the maners of the seruauntes of the housholde: they can neyther be driuen awaye nor auoyded, they are so strong and so infinitely encreased. The wound of the Church is in her entrayles and bowells, and it is incu­rable, and therfore is her bitternes very bitter, &c. S. Hil­larie writing against Aurentius sayth these wordes: I warne Admonitiō of Hillary, you to beware of Antichrist, you doe to much esteeme the walles, seeking the Church of God in the gorgiousnes of buildinges, thinking that the vnitie of the faythfull is there conteyned, doe we doubt whether Antichrist haue hys seate there or no. The mountaines, the woodes, the lakes, prisons and wildernesses are more assured vnto [...]e and more safe, [Page] for the Prophets being in them hidden did prophecie. Saint Bernard vpon the. 90. Psalme, and verse 6. sayeth, in maner al the Christians seke their own gayn, & not the gaine of Ie­sus Christ. And they haue turned ouer the very offices of the ecclesiasticall dignitie, into shamefull and dishonest gayne, and into affaires of darknes, and do not in these things seke the saluation of soules but the pleasures of riches. For thys cause are they roūded, for this cause do they haunt the chur­ches, say Masses an [...] sing Psalmes. At this daye they striue by proces & go to lawe for Bishoprikes & Archbishoprikes, in such sorte y • the reuenues of y • Church are vestowed in su­perfluities and vaine vsages: there resteth no more but that the man of sinne the sonne of perdition be reueled, &c. Saint Bernard in his sermon of the conuersion of S. Paul sayth, O Lord God, those whom we see to couet the chiefe places in thy church and possesse the principalitie: they are euen the first that persecute thee. They haue taken the Arke of Sion, and they haue possessed the castle, and afterward haue frely through the power therof set the whole ci [...]ie on fyre: their cō uersation is miserable, the subuersiō of thy people is lamen­table. S. Bernard in his boke de consid [...]r ad Eugeniū, toward the ende of his. 4. booke speaketh to the Pope in this sorte: what is it that thy flatterers saye vnto thee, goe to hardely The description of the Romish Court. thou byest them with the spoyle of the churches: The lyfe of the poore is sowen in the gates of the riche. The siluer shy­neth in the dirte, mē runne thither out of al par [...]es, the poo­rest caryeth it not awaye, but he that is strongest, or ells hee that runneth moste spedelye: this custome, or rather deadlye corruption, began not in thy time, God would it might end in the same. In the meane time thou art adourned & decked preciously, if I durst say it, thy seate is rather a close of deuils then of shepe. Dyd S. Peter so: Did S. Paul so mocke? Thy court doth vse rather to receaue the good, then to make any good, for such as are euill do not amend in thy court, but the good do there waxe worse. Bernard also sayth: Beholde the Ad E [...]gen. l [...]b. [...]e [...]tio. common murmure and complaint of all the Churches, they crye out that they are wounded and corne in peeces. There are very fewe or none ar all, who feare not that woūd: doest thou aske what wound it is? The Abbotes are robbed and spoyled by their bishops, the Bishops by their Archbishops. It is a maruell if any man be able to excuse it. In so doing, you do very wel declare that you haue plentie of power, but [Page] not of iustice, you do it because you are able to doe it: but the question is, if you ought to doe it. You are ordayned to con­serue to euery man his honour, and degree; & not to be enuious toward him. &c. S. Paule doth rightwell setforth in his colours this Romishe prelate (whiche will be called Sanctis­simus, or most holy) in his second Epistle to the Thessaloni­ans and. 2. chap. naming him the sonne of perdition, the man of sinne. &c. S. Peter also in his. 2. Epistle and. 2. chap. doth most liuely paynt out the maners and life of this Romyshe rabble of Prelacy. Furthermore in the distinctiōs. distinct, 34 cap, Lector, glose & distinct, 82, chap, prisbit. and in the Canon of the Apostles. 17. quest, 4, chap, Si quis, distinct, 40, chap, Si papa, di­stinct, 96 chap, Satis, chap, Simplici, & Incipitis. It is written in these canons, that the power and authority of the Popes is such, that they are able to dispense against the doctrine of the Apostles, agaynst the right of nature, & consequently against the Gospell and woorde of God. &c. O horrible blasphemy. Christ cōmaunded that none should adde, or diminish from his word, his word must be our guide or Scholemaster and instructor, and yet in these dayes the number will saye, it is not for vs to read the Scriptures, it appertayneth onely to priests, Fryers and Monkes to read & vnderstand the scriptures, as though the kingdome of heauen belonged only to such: truly if y • thei which liue as it were in solitary life haue nede to be armed with the vnderstāding of the Scriptures, to heale their wounds which thei daily receiue in the battail of this mortall lyfe, being [...]isburdened of a great number of cares, which he is charged with that is burdened with office of Magistrate or of rule in the cōmon welth, and also that he is charged with, that is burdened wyth wyfe, childrē & familye: he that is in thys sorte burdened shall haue more oftē occasiō to offend the maiesty of God, then he that is not so burdened, wherefore it is the more nedefull that he haue his medicine prepared wherewith to heale his deadelye woundes which he dayly receaueth by meane of sundry occasions geuē vnto him: which medicine is y • vnderstādyng of gods word, wherewith he mai assuredly furnish himself against al temp­tatiōs, as witnesseth the Psalmist saying: The words of the Lord are pure, euen as the siluer which frō the earth is seuē times tryed & purified. Eusebius in his ecclesiasticall historye Psal. 12 6. boke. 15. chap. alledgeth the Epistle of Alexander bishop of Ierusalē, against Demetrius, & doth reproue him saying: That [Page] which thou sayest in thy letters, affyrmyng that it was neuer sene, nor knowē, that secular & lay men should dispute of the The scrip­ture ought to be had in the vulgarae tounge. fayth in the presēce of Byshops: I know not what hath mo­ued thee to affyrme so manifest a lye, for so much as when so euer any is found sufficient & meete to instruct and teach the people, the bishops haue accustomed to desyre thē to take the matter in hand, So dyd our brother Neon Byshop, to Euelp [...]' in the citye Larande, & the Byshoppe Celsus to Paulin in the ci­tye Iconie, & the Byshop Atticus to Theodore in y e city Synnade: and there is no doubt but other byshops do the lyke in their dioces: when they fynde any man mete to profyt the people. Iohn Gerson, a greate pyller of the papacie, in the fyrst parte of hys examination of doctrynes sayth, that the fyrst veritye is so sure, that any symple man not beyng authorised may be so excellently sene & instructed in the holy Scriptures, that mē ought to geue more credyte to hys affyrmation in matter of teaching, thē to the doctryne of the Pope: for it is playn that we ought to geue greater credyte to the Gospell, then to the Pope: & within fewe wordes after he sayth, that if a generall Councell should be holden, & that such a wel instructed man were present there, if that the greatest nūber should through malice or ignoraunce declyne and decree anye thyng agaynst the Gospel, such a lay man myght lawfully stand agaynst the whole generall Councell. Panormitan, albeit he were a greate Idolater of papacie, in the chap. significasti, extra, de electronibꝰ sayth these woordes: In matters concernyng the fayth, the saying of a laye man oughte to haue place, before the saying of the Pope, if hys saying bee more probable, and better au­thorysed by the olde and newe Testament. Sainte Hie­rome in hys fyrste tome writyng to Marcelle, encouragyng her to goe to Bethleem sayeth: In the vyllage of Iesus Christ there are none but rusticall men, there is nothynge heard on anye syde, but Psalmes: The plowe man hol­dynge the plow by the tayle, doth singe Alleluya: the haruest mā beyng at his labour sweating, doth passe the time in sin­gyng of Psalmes: and the laborer in the vineyard with hys hooke cutting the vynes, doth syng some thynge of Dauid: such are the songes of that countrey, such are (as men cōmonly say) theyr songes of loue. S. Hierome in the proem of his 1. booke of his exposition vpon the Epistle to the Ephesiās in the. 9. Tome sayth: All words and al sentences are conteyned in the boke of God, by the which also we know God, & [Page] are not ignorant of the cause of our creation. I do not a litle maruell that some haue ben so gyuē to folly and sluggishnes that they would not learne those things which are excellent, but haue thought, & do thinck worthy of blame, al those that are gyuē to such studies: to whom albeit I could make more stricte aunswer, & soone leaue them offended or pleased, I say that it is much better to read the Scriptures, then to be gre­dy and to fish for riches, and to gather & heay them together. S. Hierome vpon the. 6. chap. to the Ephesians sayth if he cō maund the lay men of the Ephesians, & such as be occupyed in the affayres and busines of this life (as men see amōg the commō people) to instruct and bryng vp theyr children in all godly discipline and learnyng, what may men then thincke of Ministers and elders? of whose order and maner of lyfe he wrote to his disciple Timothe saying, hauyng theyr children subiect in all reuerence. &c. Primase Byshop of Vtica, in the countrey of Affricke, & disciple to S. Augustin, writing vpō the. 3. chap. of the Epistle to the Collosiās sayth: let the word of God dwel plētuously in you. &c. Hereit it is playnly decla­red, that the lay people ought also to haue the word of God, not onely slenderly, but also aboundantly, and also that they ought to admonish & teach one an other. Theophilacte vpon the Epistle to the Ephesians the. 6. chap. shewyng fathers & mothers, by what meanes they shal make their childrē obedient and ready to do theyr cōmaundement, declareth the cause of theyr obedience, to the cōmaūdemēt of theyr father saying: fathers prouoke not your childrē. &c. If thou wilt haue thy children obedient, bryng them vp and exercise them in Gods worde, accustome them to sermons, and say not that it belongeth to Monckes onely to read the holy Scriptures: for truly it is rather the office of euery Christian man, & namely of hym that is occupyed in the affayres and busines of thys world. And y • more y • he nedeth help, so much y • more nedeth he to vnderstand, for he is the more tossed with the sourges and assaultes of this worlde. It shall be much for thy profite, that thy children do heare and read the holy Scriptures: for out of them they shall learne, honor thy father & thy mother, but thou doest the contrary. Thou bringest thē vp in the stu­dy of the writynges of the heathens and Gentils, out of the whiche they learne very noughty thyngs: which happen not vnto thē, if they be instructed in the holy Scriptures. &c. S. Chrisostome vpon Genesis, in his. 5. Homelie. 6. chap. and. 1. [Page] Tome sayth: I besech you that we be not negligēt as concer­ning our health, but rather y • our talke be of spiritual thigs, and that some one take in his hand the boke of God, and cal­lyng hys neighbours to hym, he do water his owne soule, & theyrs with godly sentēces, to the end that we may chase frō vs the treasons, and awaytes of the deuil. S. Chrisostome in his. 3. sermō of Lazar saith: I do alwais exhort you, & wil not cease but stil exhorte you to gyue heede, not onely to what is said here, but also when you come home into your houses, that you be cōtinually occupyed in the readyng of the Scriptures: whiche I haue not left to vrge thē with in particular, that haue ben conuersaunt with me, and let no mā say vnto me (these wordes are cold and of smal effect) I am an aduo­cate or lawyer, I am occupyed in the affayres of the commonwealth: I am a man of occupation. I haue a wife, I haue a charge of children. I am burdened with house kepyng, I am a man of the world, it is not for me to read the Scriptures, but it is for those that haue forsaken the worlde, which dwel in mountaines, & lead a cōtinent & solitarie life. Man, what sayst thou? hast not thou to do with the readyng of the Scriptures, bycause thou art occupyed with many cares and busi­nesses? But thou hast greater neede of it then they haue. For they haue not so great neede of the helpe of y e Scriptures, as you haue, whiche are tossed & turmoyled among the sourges and wanes of wordly busines: for truly, the Monckes and so litarie men, which dwell in the desertes, are without proces and wordly cares, & haue none acquaintaunce with any, but do Philosophe & study for knowledge in peaceable quietnes and sucetie: and as they were in a sure hauē, haue fruition of things permanent & certaine: and cōtrarily we (beyng tossed with infinite wordly cares and busines, as it wer in the middest of the sea) haue alwayes nede of continual solace and cō ­forte of the Scriptures. They are farre of frō the cōbatte, but thou art dayly in the battayle, bycause thou receyuest many woundes: therfore hast thou greater nede of remedy. S. Hie­rome writyng to a Lady named Gaudence, of the bringyng Education of youth vp of her daughter [...]acatulla sayth: when the litle & yong may­den shall come to the. 7. yeare of her age, and that she begyn­neth to haue shame, and to know wherof she ought to be si­lent, & to doubt of that which she should speak, let her then learne the Psalter, by hart, vntyll she come to the. 12. yeare of her age, that she lay vp a treasure in her harte of the bookes [Page] of Salomon, of the writinges of the Apostles & Prophetes, writing also to an other good Ladye named Leta, exhorting her to instruct her daughter in the holy Scripture, euen frō the cradle, saying thus: let her embrace the booke of God, in the stede of precious stones & sylke, in the which bookes let her delight, not in their goodly couerings of sōdry colours, but in the distinct erudicion, being corrected according to the fayth: let her first learne the Psalter, & by such songes let her withdraw her selfe from the world. Let her learn out of the Prouerbes of Salomō to liue vertuously, let her learne out of Ecclesiastes to tread worldly things vnder fee [...]e, & out of Iob example of vertue and pacience: let the Gospel be continually in her handes, let her thorowlye learne the actes and Epistles of the Apostles. And when shee hathe in thys sorte enriched the Cabinet of her harte with such treasures, let her learne by harte the Prophetes, the bookes of Mo­ses, of the kings, the Paralipomenon, Esoras, and also He­ster, & last of al the song of songes, called in latin Canticū Canticorū; for if she shuld read it first she might be hurt by it, not vnderstāding the holy sōges of spirituall mariages, by those carnal phrases: let her auoyd al the Apocripho bokes, let her haue also continuall excercise in the workes of Cipriā, Atha­nase & Hillary. S. Chrisostom in his. 31. Homeli vpō s. Iohn the. 4. chap. sayth: who is he of vs I pray you, who when he is returned home to his house doth any thing belōging to a Christian? who is he that searcheth & soundeth the meanyng of the Scriptures: Truly not one, but we finde oftentymes tables and dice, but very seldome bokes, & if any haue bokes, they kepe them shutte vp, as thoughe they had none, or els they employ theyr time in beholdyng theyr braue painted coueringes or fayre figures & letters. &c. S. Chrisostome vpon S. Iohn in hys. 10. Homely. 5. Tome and. 1. chap. sayth: And Gōmoditie of the scripture. you shall be much more sharpe & subtil, not onely to heare & vnderstand, but also to teache others. &c. And within fewe lines after in the same Homelie he sayth, they which ar neg­ligēt haue yet an other excuse verye vn apt, to wit that they haue no bookes. This were a very vayne aunswere for the riche to make, but for so much as many poore men do often tymes make this excuse, I will some thyng say to them: and Carelesse nesse of the Christians will aske thē, if they haue not al theyr tooles & instrumētes, which do belong to theyr occupatiōs & craftes not withstandyng theyr pouertie. Is not this then a great foly to excuse [Page] thē by theyr pouertie, & yet they so prouide that they wāt nothing belōgyng to theyr occupatiōs, & yet they excuse thē selues vpō theyr pouertie & occupatiōs, in a matter which is so cōmodious vnto thē. S. Chrisosto. in his. 3. sermon of Lazar sayth: Seest thou not the workers of metals, gold smythes, siluer smithes, & such like mē of occupatiōs, that they haue al theyr tooles redy which belōg to their occupations? & albeit that hūger pinch them, & pouertie afflict thē, yet had they ra­ther endure any kynde of these miseries, thē to sel any instrument that belongeth to their occupation, by the whiche they liue. &c. S. Chrisostome in the same sermon sayth, that a man may get great holynes and perfection by reading of the holy Scriptures, and the holy Ghost hath so tempered them, that he would haue sinners and Publicans saued: yea & to the end that the Idiots and vnlerned should be without excuse touchyng the hardnes of the vnderstandyng therof, he hath willed that the thynges therin spoken, should be so easy euen at the first sight, that men of occupation & laborers, seruaunts, women, widowes, and such like that are most ignoraunt of all others, might by the readyng therof obtayne vnderstan­ding. &c. The Scripture is the power of God to saluatiō, by it we knowe God and Christ, by it we knowe our selues, by it we are taught our duety toward our neyghbour, by it we learn to obei our prince, by it we know the true Prophet frō the false: the Scriptures ar to be preferred before al the wri­tings of men, it is the touche stone wherby we ought to exa­mine Ad Regina [...] derecta fide the doctrines of men. Cyril sayth, it is necessary for vs that we folow the holy Scriptures, & not to swarue in anye thyng that is commaunded in them. S. Ambrose vpon the. 1. Epistle to the Corinthes &. 4. chap. saith: what soeuer is not receiued frō the handes of the Apostles is full of wickednes. Cyprian in Sermon [...] de lapsis: And how dare they ordeyne and decree any thing without Christ, whose hope and fayth, ver­tue and glorye is whollye in hym? Origine vpon Ezechiell Homili. 7. lette vs folowe no man, and if wee will folowe any, wee haue Christe set foorth to vs to followe. The actes of the Apostles are set forth vnto vs, & we know the doings of the Prophetes by the holy volumes, that is a sounde exā ­ple to folow: & Theophilactus vpō the Epistle to the Romains the last chap. sayth: They whiche bryng any thyng beside the determinations and doctrine of the Apostles, they bryng in offences, heresies and dissensions, Ireneus aduersus Valentini & similiū scripta lib. 2. cap. 56▪ Leane to the holy Scriptures, which [Page] is the sure and vndoubted truth: it is a sure stone wherwith to build: when ye leaue this & cleaue to any other doctrines. &c. S. Augustine in his prologue of his. 3. boke of the trinitie sayth: Obey not my writinges as thou wilte the Canonicall scriptures, for what so euer thou shalt finde in thē, that thou beleuest not, the same beleue without douting: but in myne if Authority of the wryting [...] of the fathers. thou finde any thing wherin thou art not persuaded thorowly, beleue it not assuredly. Againe in his. 112. Epistle which he writeth to Paulm, he speaketh to the like end. Itē in his. 2. boke of Baptisme against the Donatists. 3. chap. he saith: you alwayes alledge to vs the letters of Cypriā, the sayinges of Cypriā, why take you authoritie of Cypriā for your Scisme, & refuse his exāple, to trouble the church? who is he that doth not well know that the Canonicall scriptures, as wel of the olde as of the new Testament, are conteined within limites which ar certain, & that the same is to be preferred to the writings of al the Bishops, y • haue ben hereto fore? so y t we may not in any thing doute or dispute of it, to wit whether y • all y • therin is be true or no, but it is lawfull to reprehēd the wri­tings of y e Bishops, which were writen before, or which wer writen after the cōfirmation of the Canonical scriptures, ei­ther by word. &c. Moreouer Origene vpō the Prophet Ieremie in his. 1. Howelie sayth: we must needes call to witnesse the holy Scriptures, for without thē no mā ought to credite our sayings or writings. S. Hierom vpon s. Mathew fayth: That which is spokē without the authoritie of y e scriptures, euen as it is spoken, so may it be reiected & contēned: & vpon Ieremie. 9. chap. sayth: The error of fathers & mothers & of aūcesters ought not to be folowed, but the authoritie of the scriptures, & the cōmaūdemēt of God, whiche he teacheth vs &c. And within fewe lynes after he sayth: Assuredly thorowe ignoraūce of the law, men shall receiue Antichrist for Christ. &c. S. Cypriā to Cecil in his. 3. boke of his Epistles &. 3. Epistle saith: yf you do that which I cōmaūde you. I will not cal you my seruaūtes, but my frends. And also that Christ ought onely to be herd, the father hath borne witnes from heauen, saying: This is my welbeloued sonne, in whom I am well pleased, heare him: wherfore, if it be so y e Christ onely ought to be herd, then ought we not to looke what any man before vs hath thought good to be done: but y t which Christ, who is Christ and not custom is to be fol­lowed before all hath done: for we are not boūd to folow y e custome of mē, but the truth of God, for so much as God sayth by his Prophet Esay, in y e. 29. chap: They honor me in vain, teaching [Page] the cōmaūdemēts & doctrines of mē. And again in y e Gospel, Mathew. 15. you reiect y e cōmaūdemēt of God to establishe your own traditions. And therfore deare brother, if anye of our predecessors, eyther through ignoraunce or simplicitye, haue not obserued that which the Lord hath taught vs to do by his example or doctrine, that same may be refused, for the symplenes therof, & may through the mercies of the Lord be pardoned him. &c. And shortly after he sayth, if we be the el­ders & ministers of God & Christ, I fynd not that we ought to follow any but God & Christ, for somuch as he saith in the Gospel of Iohn chap. 8. I am the light of the world, he that followeth me shal not walke in darcknes, but shal haue the Diui [...]um institut. lib. 6. cap. 8 light of life. Lactāti' Firmian' in his. 6. boke of his godly institutiōs. 8. chap. sayth: we ought not to follow mē but god. The canons & decrees of the Popes in the. 9. distinct. ca. Noli. & cap. Ego, & cap. Negare. & dist. 24 &. 1. quest. ca. Non affermam' say thus: Men must dwell vpon the holy Scriptures, & not vpon the sayings of men, how holy soeuer they be. &c. S. Chrisostome vpō S. Iohn, sayth in the end of the. 16. homelie: That mē of occupatiō do seeke & striue to be excellent in their occupaci­ons, Gredi desire of corporall things, and carelesnesse of spirituall things. but the christiā can not render reasō of his religion: & if these handy occupations were not knowen, it were but losse of money, but the cōtempt of the christiā religiō carieth with it destruction of the soule, & yet we tranayle in so great mise­rye & madnes that we bestow in thē all our studie & care, but the things which are most necessary for vs, and are most sure fortes of our saluation, we esteme not at all. It is it that let­teth the heathens frō acknowledging their errour, and cau­seth thē to scoffe at vs: for albeit they are groūded onely vpō lyes, to do al that which they do, & to defend the ignominie of their doctrine, we which serue y e truth, dare not once opē our mouthes to defend that which is ours: why should they not condemne our great imbecillitie, & haue vs in supicion to be crafty & disceitful? why should they not speake euil of Christ as of a lyar, who by his fraud should haue abused the simpli­citie of the multitude? we are cause of this blasphemie: for S. Peter in his. i. epistle. 3. chap. cōmaundeth vs to be alwayes readye to render reason to all that shall demaund vs of the fayth & hope that we haue. And again S. Paul Colo. 3. chap. Pro [...]. 10. b let the word of God dwell plenteously in you, but what an­swere make they to that which are more folish then the very fooles in dede. Blessed is euery symple one & he that walketh [Page] surely. But that is the cause of all euills, for that: that many know not how to alledge aptly the testimonies of the scrip­tures: for in this place we may not vnderstād the symple for the foolyshe and for him that vnderstandeth nothing, but for him that is not craftye and melicious. For if it shoulde be so vnderstode, it should be superfluous to say, be ye wyse there­fore Math. 10. b as serpentes and symple as doues. S. Ambrose vpō the 2. epistle to Tymothe. 3. chap. sayeth: All scripture geuen by inspiration from God, &c. It is manifest that all Scripture wherof God hath declared himselfe to be author, is profita­ble, For it is geuē to that end that it shoulde profite the igno­raūt, reforme the deformed, drawing the wicked into al good workes: for, by profiting a litle and litle in newnesse of lyfe, it maketh the mā of God, &c. The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring or conuerting soules, the testimonye of the Lord is Collo. 3. b Psal. 19 Psal. 119 faythful and sure, it geueth wisedome to the ignoraunt. The statutes of the eternall are righteous, reioysing the hart, the cōmaundement of y e Lord is pure and doth lighten the eyes. And againe: Thy word is alampe or lanterne to my fete & a light to my steppes. The Prophet Esay in his. 8. chap. sayth, is there any where a people that asketh not councell of hys God? Should men turne frō the liuing to the dead? If any man want light let him loke vpon the law & the testimonie, whether they speake after this meaning. The lyght of the Ezech, 20. c morning shall not be geuen vnto them. Moreouer the Pro­phet sayth. Say to the childrē in the desert, walke not in the ordinaunces of your fathers, & obserue not al their statutes, & be not defyled with their idoles. I am the Lord your God walke in my ordinaunces and kepe my statutes and do thē. Eccle. 1, a Itē the fountayne of wisedome is the word of the soueraign Lord God, & the entre into the same are his eternal cōmaū ­dements. And agayn: Search the scriptures, for in them you thinke you haue eternall life, and they bee they which beare Iohn 5 Iohn, 20 g witnes of me. And Iesus did many other thinges that are not written in this boke, in the presence of his disciples, but these things ar writtē to the end that you should beleue that Iesus is the annoynted sonne of God, & that in so beleuing you may haue life thorow his name. The holy scriptures are In what re­commendacion God hath his Word, full of the lyke sayings. The auncient fathers are full of the worthines of the scriptures. S. Augustine in his. 56. sermon made to the brethren that were in solitude sayth: he that ma­keth none accompt of the reading of the holy scriptures sent [Page] from heauen, ought not onely to feare that peraduenture he shall not receaue euerlasting rewards: but also that he shall not escape the euerlasting punyshmentes, for it is so daūge­rous vnto vs, not to read the deuine precepts, that the Prophets with great sorrowe exclame & cry out: for y t cause haue Esay. 5. c Ose, 4. b 1, Cor, 14 my people bene brought into captiuitie, because they had no knowledge: for he that is ignorant, shall be ignorant: out of all doubt he that in this world maketh none accompt to seke to know God by the holy Scriptures, God wil not vouch­safe to know him in the ioyes euerlasting, we ought to be a feard to heare (after that the gates shall be shut) with the fo­lyshe virgins, I know you not, I haue none acquaintaunce Math, 25, [...] with you: you that worke iniquitie, depart you frō me: what meaneth this? I knowe you not; I am not acquainted with you, how knoweth he not those that he sendeth to the fyre? There is neyther of thē spoken without cause, for as it hath bene already sayd, suche as woulde not in thys world seeke to knowe hym by reading the Scriptures, GOD will not acknowledge them at the day of iudgement. We ought also not to heare negligently (but with attentiue eare & fear) that which is written in Salomō, he y t turneth (sayth he) his eare Prou, 18, [...] frō the hearing of the lawe, his prayer shal be abhominable: wherefore he that will be heard at Gods hand, muste fyrste heare God. For how woulde he that God shoulde heare him when he doth so dyspyse hym, that he maketh none ac­compte of the readyng of hys commaundementes? Saint Hierome in the proeme of his Commentaries vpon Esaye, to Eustochius, sayth: therfore I yelde vnto thee, and to hym by thee, that whiche I do owe, obeyng the commaundement of Iohn 5. f Math. 7 [...] Christ, who fayth, searche diligently the Scriptures, Seeke and you shall finde: to the end that it be not sayd to me, as it was to the Iewes: ye erre, not knowyng the Scriptures, & the power of God & the wisedom of God: and truly after S. Paul, if Christ be the power and wisedom of God, & he that knoweth not the scriptures, the same knoweth not y • power of God nor his wisedō. To be ignoraūt of the Scriptures, is not to know Christ. &c. S. Chrisostome in the Homelie. 29. vpon Benefis, sayeth: There is neyther griefe of body no [...] mynde in the nature of man, but it may haue medicine of the Scriptures. &c. These are sayinges of great importance, and are true. They are no Legend lyes. They are confirmed by the word of God, whiche is the infallible truth, Then if man [Page] know not God, as he ought to do, but by the Scriptures, & that none can be saued, but by the knowledge of God, and Christ: Thē must it nedes folow, that ignoraūce of y e Scrip­tures bryugeth with it damnation. I haue alledged here mo sayinges of the fathers, then I would haue done (& nothyng so many in number as I could haue done) but bycause the great swarme of aduersaries say, that it is not lawfull or ex­pedient, that euery man should read the Scriptures, but ra­ther that the people should be ignoraunt, affirmyng igno­raunce to be the mother of deuotion: I could haue aūswered it to the full by the woorde of God alone, whiche woorde I thincke to be most sufficient: but bycause these kynde of men before named, wil not accept Christ, to be a true man of hys word, except he haue some of the doctors & fathers for wit­nesses: Seyng nowe that it hath pleased our good God, in mercy so to deale with vs, as he hath in these our dayes, gy­uyng vs such meanes & introductions to the true vnderstā ­dyng of his most sacred worde, as he hath not of many ages done to any nation, let vs now therfore call vpon the name of our mercifull and mighty God, desiring him to strengthē vs, to searche out this truth, and then in dede to practise the same in our lyues: least that he should in his iustice take that excellent Iewell of his worde from vs, and gyue it to a na­tion that shall bryng forth the fruites therof. I hūbly beseche that good God, in y e bowelles of his mercy, for hys Christes sake: that he will so direct our lyues, that by our good exam­ple, such as he hath not as yet called to the true know­ledge of his woorde, may embrace and receyue the same, and so profite therin, that in the ende we may be all of one sheepe folde, vnder the charge of our great shephearde Iesus Christe. So be it.

❧ The content of the first Dialogue, Intituled of the holy Inquisition, Depen­daunces, or the Accessories.

THe principall ende whereunto I tende in this Dialogue, is to procure men to searche and to enquyre of the will of God, by such meanes as he hath gyuen vs in his holy worde, & sacred Scriptures, to the end y e they may know how to frame & gouerne them selues according to the same: and that they gyue thē selues to that study be­fore all other thinges, in the most diligent and earnest wise that shalbe possible for them to do, without any delay at al: And that they do therof very well consider, seyng the great mischiefes and inconueniences into the whiche men may fal, for not so doyng, and the great profite and commoditie that may come vnto them, if they do so diligently employe them selues in the studie therof, as they ought to do.

And for so much as the harte of man is so froward, that he will in no wise be gouerned accordyng to the rule of the will and worde of God, and yet for all that he will in no wise acknowledge and confesse the same openly, but sear­cheth all excuses and colour that may be foūd to couer and hide his hipocrisie and wickednes: I do shew playnly a nō ­ber of the principal and chief excuses and coulour that men alledge at this present, to hinder and empeach them for cō ­ming to God, and to procure their owne health and salua­tion. After that we will speake of such as arme them selues for their defence, with their predecessours, with antiquitie, with the nomber and outward apparance of the world, and of those that thinke that their ignoraunce shall excuse thē, and of the diuersitie of ignoraunces, and of the simplicitie and malice that may be in thē, and of their obstinacie, and persecutions, and of the negligence of all men in matters of Religion. I will also speake of those that couer them sel­ues with the obedience that they doe owe to their princes, & [Page 2] make them their shieldes and their Gods, and of the meane that both the princes and people should kepe in suche affai­res. There shal also be mention made of such as excuse thē selues by meanes of their great busines: moreouer of Epi­curians and mockers of Gods word. Beside these there shal be mention made of suche as are of opinion that all natiōs shalbe saued euery one in his law. I will also say somwhat of the certayntie of Gods word, and of the constancie, and assurednes of his will, and of the law. And afterward in the Dialogues following, I wil speake of those that dwel vpon Counsels, and wil shewe vpon what Councel we ought to dwell. I haue intitled this Dialogue the holy search, or en­quest: bycause that in it mencion is made, not onely of that inquisition whiche falsly is called holy, the whiche is made by the ministers of Antechrist, which wrongfully are called the tryers of the faith, and worcke continually against the true Christians that will acknowledge and confesse none other doctrine or Religiō to be Christiā, but onely that doc­trine whiche Iesus Christe hath taught, whiche is the holy enquirie of the knowledge of Gods word, necessarie for the soules health of all true Christians. It may also be named the Accessories, for so muche as I do set forth in this same, the shiftes by the whiche men haue bene accustomed to wage, the lawe with God, and to excuse thē selues and couer their rebellion, whiche they haue committed agaynste hys Maiestie.

The first Dialogue is entituled, the holy Inquisition, or the Dependaunces.

Of the blindnesse and disorder that is among men, in the mat­ter of Religion, and of their Saluation.

  • Tymothe.
  • Daniell.

1 THe more that I do consider the great disorder that is in the world, in al estates, and chiefly in the mat­ter of Religion, the more I do meruell. Daniel. And truely for my parte, I meruell not at all, although the disor­der be great, but I meruell greatly to see that it is no gret­ter: albeit it wer a hard matter to adde any thing therunto. Tymothe. Why sayest thou so? Daniel. Bycause that men are so blind and wicked, as though they had determinatly conspired agaynst their owne saluation and health, and to thrust all, euen heauen and earth, into disorder, confusion & ruine, they could do no worse then they do.

Of the Authours and causes of all order and disorder amonge men, and of the goodnes of God, and of the ingratitude & malice of men.

2 T. I Would be very glad if thou wouldest declare and opē vnto me somewhat particularly the causes herof. D. I first aske thee, who is the authour and cause of all good or­der? T. God onely, who hath created and made all thinges, and hath set an order amongest his creatures, suche as he knoweth to be meete for them. D. And who is the authour and cause of all disorder? T. The deuill, aduersarie to God and to all his creatures: who continually employeth all his forces to ouerthrow and confound the whole order whiche God hath set amongst his creatures. D. Seyng that it is so, and that men estraunge them selues from God, and flee from his councell as much as in them is, and on the contrarie, endeuour them withal their power to ioyne them selues to the deuill, pleasuryng in nothyng so much as to folowe his councels, and therfore doost thou meruell if all be in disorder [Page 4] and extreme confusion? Hast thou not rather occasiō much more to wonder at the great goodnes and inestima­ble suffraunce of God, how he can endure so long, not one­ly on so greate an ingratitude, but rather so great a furie and rage wherwith men are fylled, by the whiche they en­force them by all meanes possible vtterly to destroye them selues, and to hasten their destruction and to make it more fearefull and horrible? T. It is very true. And the whole beyng wel cōsidered, it semeth that we haue made a league with Satan, our mortal enemy, to ayde him to destroy our selues, and to hinder the goodnes that God of his grace, beyng moued of his owne onely goodwil, will bestow vpon vs: and cōtrarely that God by his great goodnes and mer­cy doth fight agaynst our malice and frowardnes, euen as to bestowe of hys graces vpon vs, will we, nill we, and to withdraw vs frō these bottomles pittes of wickednes, into the which we go about to throw our selues most willingly.

Of the cause of the fall and [...]uyne of mankind, and of the re­medy and meane hovv to recouer the same.

3 D. THat same was the first fountaine and spryng of all the disorders & mischiefes that euer entred into the worlde. That same was the very pathe that our first pa­rentes tooke: That same was the very meane by the which they fell from that hye degree and state of felicitie, peace, quietnes, and ioye, in the whiche God had placed thē in the beginnyng, throughe the whiche they haue dampned them selues withall their rase, and are fallen into this greate di­sorder and confusion, in the whiche we are euen at this pre­sent, bycause that we as their proper children folow euē the selfe and same councell that they folowed. Therfore seyng that we do knowe the cause of the euill, why do we not tra­uayle to finde out the remedies contrary to the same? for so much as the euil doth procede of that, that we refused to fo­low the councell and will of God, and folowed the councell [Page 5] and persuasiō of the deuil. Let vs now leaue the deuill with­all his intisementes and persuasions, and let vs enquire at the mouth of God and take councell of him, howe to learne to knowe his will and to folow the same: and then all disor­der and confusion shalbe cleane put away, and euery thing shalbe brought into good order. For in dede the onely wil of God, and the obedience thereunto belongyng, is the mother and nource of al good order. It is onely she that doth beget it, nourish it, and maintayne it, and is the onely rule wher­with, if you measure all things wel, al disorder shalbe chaū ­ged into good order.

Of the difficultie that is in men to acknovvledge their er­rours and faultes, and of the argumentes that they hold of aūcient custom, and of the authoritie of their predecessors, and of auncientie, and of the multitude, vvherevvith they arme them selues.

4 T. I Do like all that whiche thou hast sayde very well, but there are very fewe that will take that waye, for there are, that are so hard harted and obstinate, that a man shall not make them beleue that they ar in errour: what reason soeuer he bryng agaynst them out of the booke of God, nor they will not acknowledge their abuses & faultes: although they be so filthie and apparent that euery man doth see thē, and that euery man doth handle them. These men alledge their predecessours, and say that they wilbe no wiser, nor better then they: for they say that they wer honest men, and wise ynoughe for to know the wil of God. Wherupon they conclude that if those wer dampned, they wilbe also damp­ned with them. An other sort alledge aunciēt customes and the multitude of men, and the continuance of tyme, and the auncienti of their order of lyfe.

Of the proces that men brynge agaynste God, and of the shyftes that they seeke to cloke their rebellion agaynste hy [...] vvorde.

D. FOr so muche as men wil not be brought to that passe, to yelde that obedience vnto God whiche they owe 5 vnto him, but will go to the lawe with hym, it must nedes come to passe that they searche out some shifte and some starting holes and excuses to giue some shew to their cause. Wherefore if we shall gyue them place, they will neuer be vnfurnished of shiftes. But it is greate follie for them to pleade their cause with God, for he must be the iudge, and not they: wherefore they may well assure them selues that all their reasons and excuses shalbe of no greate value be­fore hym, when they shalbe wayed in the ballances of hys iustice and iudgementes. But bycause that men haue bene alwayes accustomed to flatter them selues, and that they do so dilighte in their errours, that it is a hard matter to bryng them to acknowledge them selues to be so foule and filthie, as they are: I am well contented that we do examine their fayre discourses, and their goodly allegations. T. I would be very glad therof.

Hovv that al false Religion may be vvel defēded: if that antiquitie & the authoritie of predecessours may haue place.

6 D. LEt vs nowe see, what foundation that hath, whereof you haue nowe spoken. There is no errour, secte, he­resie, false doctrine, nor wickednesse so greate, but that it may easely be defēded, if such reasons mought be allowed, For a Iewe, a Turcke, and a Pagane, may well alledge as much. T. I confesse the same. D. If then these Christiās (as they name thē) were Iewes, Turkes, or Pagans borne, they woulde so continue, because they were so borne & also their predecessours before them. T. There is no doubt of it. D. These kind of men haue none other reason to main tayne their order and maner of lyfe, but onely wilfulnes & obstinacie, by the which they do right wel declare that they haue not well considered what y e Lord sayth by his Prophet Ezechiell: Walke not in the wayes of your fathers, nor be Ezech. 20 you filed with their Idoles, for I am y e Lord your God: you shall walk in my commaundements, & see that you swarue [Page 7] neither to the right hād, ne yet to the left hād. It is also writtē, you shal not do as those y e ar gone before you, neither file Leu. 18 you your selues as they haue done. Take hede that you do not according to y e custome of y e land of Egypt, in the which you haue dwelled: Nor yet after y e custome of y e land of Chanaan. So y e you walke not in their statutes: but se y e you ob­serue my ordinaunces, & that you giue good hede to my cō ­maūdemēts: to y e end that you may walke in thē. Let vs cō ­sider also how y e spirite of God, did blame & reproue y e aūciēt 1. Reg: [...]. Samaritanes: These people did not hearken at all, but did liue according to their aūcient custome. These people then feared y e Lord: but yet they serued their Idols notw tstāding. They folow their auncient custome euen to this very day. They do not feare the Lord, nor kepe y t ceremonies & y t iud­gements, & the law, & the cōmaūdemēt that y e Lord gaue to the son of Iacob, which is surnamed Israell. If our prede­cessours haue walked in y e wayes of y e Lord, we may iustly alledge thē: for God hath cōmaūded vs to folow such perso­nages: not for their own worthynes, for they are but mē as we are, & not Gods: but bycause y t they haue followed in the way of the Lord, which saith y t it is he, y t is y e Lord our God, not our fathers. For he is y e most aūciēt father y t we haue, which onely is y e father of veritie & truth, as the deuill is the father of lyes, who is in dede a very aūcient father, but not so auncient as is God the father of all truth.

Of the argumentes taken of the multitude.

T. WHat sayest thou of the argumentes taken of the mul­titude? D. If it were lawefull to alledge the multi­tude of mē, the fooles and wicked should alwayes haue the better: for they are alwaye the greatest nomber. Wherfore we are forbidden in law, to folowe the multitude, for to do euill. And our sauiour Iesus Christ hath willed vs to passe thorow the straite way, for it is y t waye that leadeth to eter­nall life: & cōtraryly forbiddeth vs to folow y e large, thorow the which many passe, for that way leadeth to destruction. Esech. 20

Of the argumentes of tyme auncientie.

8 T. WHat sayest thou of those that alledge long time & aun­cientie? D. Ther is no greater reason in the alledging of time & auncienti, then in the alledging of the multitude. For what is more auncient in this world, then lying, rebel­lion, and disobedience, manslaughter, violence, extorcion, whoredome, Idolatrie, villeny, and all kinde of wickednesse and abhomination, for they haue had their beyng euen im­mediatly after the beginning of the world, as soone as men were borne into the world. T. These thinges haue begon at the least euen from the tyme, that the deuil hath bene in the world, whiche is as ancient as any man that euer was: for he is the auncientest of al creatures, and the father of al the euill that euer was, is, or shalbe in the worlde, and it is by him, that it is entertained, encreased, and maintained.

Of the fall of the deuill, and of his children, vvhose prede­cessour he is.

9 D. IN dede it is very well sayd of thee, for our Sauiour Ie­sus Christ doth call him not onely a lyar, but also the father Iohn. 8. of lyes. For albeit that God did creat hym an Angell, and in y e same truth that is in God: yet he could not so con­tinue, but did falle from truth into lyes, whiche is the ori­ginall of all other euils, euen as truth is the fountaine of Iohn. 8. all goodnes. He is also called a mansleyar and a murderer from the begynning. And bycause that Cain did by and by folow him, S. Iohn sayeth that he is the sonne of the deuill, Iohn. 3. and that he slew his brother bycause he was of the wicked. And in the same place he saith also: he that sinneth is of the deuil: for the deuil sinneth euen from the begynning. In the whiche Saint Iohn hath folowed the maner of speakyng of his master Iesus Christe: who called the Iewes, childrē Ioh. viii. of the deuill: for that they were lyars and murderers of the seruauntes of God, and of hym whiche was and is the very [Page 9] sonne of God, which thyng proceded of the very hatred that they had agaynst the truth, which was preached vnto them by Iesus Christ and his Disciples.

Of the predecessours of the vvicked and infidels, and hovve the auncientie of sinnes doth procure Gods vvrath vpon men, and doth not excuse them.

10 T. IT foloweth then by this accoumpt, that such as folow and do the worke of the deuill, ar y e deuils sonnes & suc­cessours. D. The matter is playne, wherfore thou mayest easely perceyue by this what predecessours such kynd of mē may alledge, that will folow any other order of lyfe, then y t whiche hath ben taught vs by God: & what cause they haue to glory of auncientie and of old worldes. Let them thē al­ledge the deuill for their most auncient father, and with his lyes fight against the eternal truth of God: let the manslea­ers and murderers alledge Cain, and the Sodomites, those whose name they beare. All these kyndes of mē and al other wicked ones haue fathers very auncient, they do folow one doctrine and one sorte of lyfe, whiche is very auncient: but truth, vertue, holynes, innocencie, & God which is there fa­ther, are yet more auncient, for the deuil, sinne, and lyes, of the whiche he is author, haue had their begynnynge, and raigne, and therfore they shall once haue an ende. But God is eternall, without begynning and without end, and so is his truth, whereof he is father, and of all vertues els. And therfore God doth not onely not supporte heresies, errours, superstitions and Idolatries, bycause of their auncientie: but contrarylye he threateneth the Idolaters and wicked ones, that the longer that they haue continued in sinne and folowed the same, the greater vengeaunce he will send vp­pon them. Wherfore it is spoken by the Prophet Esay: Be­hold Esay. 65. it is writtē before me, I will no longer hold my peace, but will yelde and throwe into their bosomes, your iniqui­ties, with the iniquities of your fathers also, saith the Lord, [Page 10] and immediatly after: whereby I will yelde agayne vnto them in their bosome the measure of their first worcke. The Lorde speaketh this vppon good occasion, for if the father haue ben wicked, and the sonne is yet more wicked, the ini­quitie of the father doth not amende that of the sonne, and make it vertue and not vice. T. No, but doth encrease it much more, for the more of our predecessours that haue ben rebels against God, so much the greater is our faulte. D. It semeth vnto me, that those which alledge their predecessors & aūcientie, to maintaine therby their errors and abuse, do euen like as doth a traitor, whiche would excuse and purge him selfe to ward his prince, whom he hath offēded, through his treasons, that should alledge in his defence that his pre­decessours haue alway bene traitours, & liued in y e like infi­delitie towardes their prīces, as he hath done towardes his. Thinckest thou not y • this excuse wer very lawful & mete to appease the prince? T. Euē so mete that it mought occasiō him to cut cleane frō the earth so wicked a race, to the ende they should neuer be any more heard of. D. It is euen so.

Hovv that none may so vvell alledge aūciētie, as the faithful may, & hovv that al the allegatiōs of the vnfaithful, are nothing els but clokes, to couer their hipocrisie & vvickednes.

11 T. FOr so muche as it is so, it semeth vnto me, that if aun­cientie might haue place, there are none that may so wel alledge auncientie as may the true childrē of God. D. No mā may deny y t. For God is the aunciēt of all worldes, Esay. xli. Daniel, vii Apoc. 12. 13 the first & the last, whose truth they folow, by the which they are made his true & lawfull children. Wherfore these men may lawfully alledge, & cōmaunde vnto their children, that whiche the Lord spake by Ieremy, searche you out among Ierem. vi. the auncient pathes, whiche is the good way, & walke in the same. T. I do thincke that those reasons, whiche thou hast alledged, are sufficient ynoughe to confute and shame those kindes of mē, y e vse these colours of predecessours, of y e mul­titude, [Page 11] of times, & ages, to cloke therwith their disobedience & rebellion against the word of God: for whē al is said ther­is but one thing, that hindereth all this, to wit that such mē will not be obedient to the voyce of the Lord, nor take coū ­sell of him, nor folowe him. But for so muche as they dare not say and declare the same openly, bycause that they will not be knowen to be such as they are in dede, but would be thought of mē to be honest, and such as feare God, they seke these shiftes and starting holes. They are lyke to those ad­uocates y t pleade an euill cause, who haue determined to do no right to their contrarie partie, but seeke onely by cauil­ling, how to shift out the matter, bycause that they will ne­uer be enforced to grow to any honeste ende.

Of the langage that is in the heart of the hypocrites & vvic­ked, and hovv they cloke it before the vvorld.

12 D. THou hast stricken the white in the middest, and haste touched the very pithe of that vniuersall disease that raygneth throughe out the worlde, the whiche Iesus Christ doth thorowly open vnto vs, when he sayeth, speakyng of hys doctrine: That he, that is desirous to do the, will of hys Iohn. vii. father, shall soone knowe whether it be of God or no. There is but one thing, that disguiseth this whole matter: which is that some of them can couer and cloke otherwise and more finely then can the others. T. It is certayne, without any circumlocution, that those whiche searche out such starting holes, should rather say euen at one worde, that whiche the wicked ones spake, of whom the Scripture in the boke of y e Prophetes declareth sayinge, we haue nothyng to do with Esay. lviii. Psal. ii. God: We will not knowe hys wayes: nor walke in the same, nor yet beare hys yoke. D. It is very true. But that shoulde not bee so honorable for them: nor haue so good a grace. For although they speake it in theyr heart, they will in no wise that the world vnderstand it, yea and that which is more vile, they ar so beastly, & do so much delight in their [Page 12] folly and filthy sophistrie, that they thincke euē by the same to be able to abuse and mocke God, euen as they abuse and mocke men: as though he sawe not the wickednes of their hartes, and wanted wisedom & vnderstanding how to trap the subtil and craftie in their cauteles and finesses.

Of the persecutours of the veritie, and of the diuerse sortes of them.

13 T. NOw if those of whō we haue already spoken, haue very slender reason to alledge: howe do you thincke of those that are not contented with such excuses, but employ their whole forces to persecute the truth of God, and as many as will teach & folow the same? D. There are thre sortes of these kinde of people: there are of them that persecute the truth and those that folowe it, of a certaine malice, euen a­gainst the witnesse that y e spirit of God yeldeth in their own consciences, onely for hatred that they beare agaynste God and his truth. There ar also others which do it not so much for hatered that they beare agaynst the truth, as for the ho­nors and riches which they hope to obtaine, by resisting the same, or els that they haue already obtayned. The third are those that do the like throughe ignoraunce.

Of such as persecute the truth of a purposed malice, and of the sinne agaynst the holy Ghost, or sinne to death.

14 T. WHat sayest thou of the first sorte of those men? D. I say that they are of the very nature of the deuill, for he hath no cause to hate God, and his truth, but onely of the wickednes that is in hym, and of the enuie and immortall hatered that he doth beare to God and his truth. T. Then is the sinne of suche men lyke to the sinne of the deuill. D. It is euen so, wherfore they shall haue lyke punishment, for they shall neuer obtayne pardon nor grace. T. It is then that sinne that Iesus Christ doth call the sinne agaynst the holy Ghost, and saint Iohn, sinne vnto death, for the which Math. xii. Iohn. 5. he forbiddeth men to praye. But thinckest thou that there are any so wicked and so full of malice vpon the earth, that [Page 13] wil so of purpose make warres against God? D. If ther wer none, then would none haue bene found amōg the Scribes and Phariseis, and the rest of the Iewes, before whom Ie­sus Christe made mencion of the sinne agaynst the holye Ghost. I do thinke he would haue holden no suche purpose, ne yet Sainte Iohn neither. And I am well assured that Alexander the Coppersmith, of whom Sainte Paule com­plaineth much, writing to Timothe, did very nere approch the nature of such, if he were not fully such an one, or els I should greatly marueil of the prayer that saint Paule ma­keth ii. Tim. iiii against him saying: Alexander the Copersmyth hath done me great hurt, the Lord reward him according to hys desertes, of whom be thou ware also, for he hath greatly re­sisted our preaching. If he had offended rather of ignorāce, then of malice, I beleue that Saint Paule woulde rather haue praied for him, as he did in the same epistle for others, with whom he was not well pleased, I doubt not but he would haue followed the example of Iesus Christe, and of saint Steuen, who prayed for their persecutours, rather then to haue prayed against him. For it semeth that he had no hope of his conuersion and health. T. Men may cal these kinde of men the most wicked of all wicked, and the eldest sonnes of the deuil. But it is wonderful to see them so wic­ked, and to see them so dispitefully to make wars agaynst God and his truth, and yet they wyll couer them with the name of God, & of the zeale of his glorye. For ther is none, be he neuer so euil, if he be not vtterly desperate, but when he persecuteth the truth, he wil pretend to fauour the same, and would that men should thinke that he persecuteth not the truth, but errour and lyes, for the mayntenāce of Gods truth. D. The matter is verye apparant, namelye in the Scribes and Phariseis, and in the bishops, high Priestes, & Princes of Ierusalem, which crucified Iesus Christe, and Math. 24. 27. 28. Iohn. 5. 8. 10. 11. 18. 19 yet fayned that they persecuted him for blasphemyng▪ the maiesty of God. Wherfore the more that suche men so vil­lanously [Page 14] abuse the name of God, wherewith to couer their murders and wickednes, the more are they accursed and worthie of greater iudgement.

Of those that resiste the truth vvittingly, and do persecute it agaynst their ovvne consciences, to please men therby, and to get the riches of this vvorlde, and of the calamities of these dayes.

15 T. LEt vs leaue this first kinde of men, and let vs speake of the other two kindes of persecutours whom thou hast already named. D. The second sort are very neare ap­prochyng to the nature of the first, bycause that those that do abuse the knowledge of God, do cōmonly fall from this degree of euil, into that other extreme degree of wickednes, whereof we euen now spake. I do place in this rācke those that do wittingly resiste y e truth, & do make warres against the people of God, as did Balaā: not for y t they haue so great a hatered agaynst the truth, as haue these others of whome we haue already spoken, but they do it to mayntayne theyr Num. 24. [...]. Peter. ii worldlye pompe, and for their particular commoditie: or els that they are corrupted, by suche as do resiste the veritie, as is aforesayd. T. The number of such is greate. For the chief thing that maketh men to resiste the worde of God, is, for that it is contrarie to their ambition, glorye and coue­tousnes, and to all theyr pleasures and corrupte affections. But among all, there are none more worthy to be accomp­ted suche Balamites, then the learned men, that are at this daye in Christendome, whose nomber is greate, whiche set out for hyer to Antechrist and his adherentes, both theyr pennes and tongues, to cursse or speake euill of those, that they knowe ryght well that God doth blesse, and to hinder the course of the worde of God, and the reformation of hys Churche. Wherefore I do not greatly maruell, if that God oftentymes doth throw suche men into a reprobate sence, whiche do so wickedly turne the truth of God, vnto a lye, and his iustice, into iniustice, and in this sorte oftentymes Roma. i. [Page 15] they become in the ende the greatest aduersaries of God, & his worde that the earth doth beare: to the ende that they may fill full the measure of their iniquities. For such a wic­kednes, and frowardnes doth well deserue suche a punishe­ment and vengeaunce, at the handes of God, whiche is the most horrible that may light vpon men.

Of such as do resist the truth, & persecute the same through ignoraunce, and zeale vvithout vnderstandyng, and of the excuse of the ignoraunt.

16 D. THese people are farre woorse, then are these of whom we nowe meane to speake, whiche do not offende but Roma. 10 through ignoraunce, and of a zeale that they haue towarde God, which is voyde of knowledge, as many haue done be­fore our tyme, and namely Saint Paule, in the tyme that he was a persecuto [...] of the Christians, for he him selfe confesseth that he did it of ignoraunce: wherefore there is more i. Timo. i hope in these kynde of men, then in either of the others. T. But I would gladly know, whether these men shalbe excu­sed by their ignoraunce or no. D. Our Lorde Iesus Christ sayth, that the seruaūt that knoweth his maisters will, and doth it not, shalbe more greuously beaten, then he y t is igno­raunte Luke. xii thereof, and doth it not: yet for all that both shal­be punished. He sayth also that those whiche haue throwen the Gospel from them, shall receaue greater punishements in the daye of iudgement, then those of Sodome, and Go­morha, Math x Luke. x vnto whom God hath not offered so great grace: yet for al that, he sayth not that those of Sodome, and Gomor­ha shall escape the iudgemente. T. This is a maruelous and a horrible threatnyng.

Hovv that the vvāt of the knovvledge of God, & his truth, raigneth not in man, vvithout his great faulte.

17 T. THen if those that are ignoraunt in the doctrine of the Lord, and by meanes of their ignoraunce do not fo [...] [Page 16] low it at all, shall not be excused by their ignoraunce: howe much lesse shall they that are not onely content to be igno­raunt of it, but do openly persecute the same? For there is no ignoraunce in that behalfe, but that a great péece of the fault is in our selues. For in how many & sondry sortes doth God dayly declare him selfe to vs? By howe many meanes doth he call, and as it were drawe vs vnto hym? We do all knowe that there is one God whiche is the Lorde of all. T. That is verye true. D. If he bee the Lorde of all, then all men are bounde to obey his lawes and ordinaunces. T. That is but reason. D. We can not obserue and kepe them, but firste we muste knowe them and vnderstande them. Wherefore before all other thynges we must seke for thys knowledge and vnderstandyng. For there is nothing more honest, more profitable, nor more necessarie for vs; and contrarywise there is no thynge more vnhonest, more wor­thy of blame, nor more hurtefull, then is the ignoraunce of the lawe, and of the will of God. For if the ignoraunce of any thynge that is worthie to be knowen (men hauynge meanes to attayne to the knowledge thereof) be to be con­dempned, and that so muche the sooner, in so muche as the knowledge of the thynge is more commendable and more necessarie: how much should we esteme vnhonest and intollerable the ignoraūce of the law, and of the wil of God? Of the whiche the knowledge is more necessarie for vs, then is the lyght of the sunne, and the vsage of the fire and water, without the whiche this humane lyfe can not continue. T. I confesse no lesse. For in as muche as the soule of man is more excellent then is the body, euen so are the thynges more excellent & more necessarie that do concerne the soule, or at the least both soule and body together, then are those which appertayn onely to the body. For if the soule be well and in good case, the body can not be but well: but if the bo­dy be well entreated and delicately vsed, and the soule euill entreated and negligently looked vnto, the euill entreatie [Page 17] of the soule shall in the ende make the bodye partaker of the same.

Of the greate care and diligence that is in men to get those thynges that do appertaine to this present life, and of their negligence and carelesnesse that they doo vse, as touchyng those thinges that appartayne to the life eternall.

18 D. THerfore I do not a litle maruel to se the great paines and trauayles, that men take to maintayne this ca­suall and miserable lyfe: whiche is as it were, of the conti­nuaunce of one day in comparyson, yea in dede very short and full of sorow and miserie, whiche life also many do not passe thorowe euen to the end, and yet do they learne many Artes, Sciences and occupations through great diligence, labour and trauaile, to the end to be by them sustained and maintayned in this present life: & that there are so few that haue any care to learne that Art and Science, by the which we may attayne to that eternal and most blessed lyfe which shall cōtinue with vs for euer. For what is the whole age of a man euen frō the day of his byrth to the day of his death? T. It is as it were the tyme of one day, and is more shorte to some, then to others: If we shal compare it with the age of that lyfe whiche lasteth for euer. D. Yet doo we learne Artes, and Sciences and occupatiōs, in nomber, in maner infinite whiche can stand vs in no stede, but onely in this miserable and wretched life: And on the contrarie, we haue but one to learne whiche is able to leade vs out of all the miseries and wretchednes, wherin we are here wrapt, and to make vs happy for euer: and yet we make none accoumpte therof, but fiee from it, reiect it, and persecute it: Howe shall we nowe be able to excuse our selues? We will ryse three or foure houres before daye, yea at mydnight: We will ryde & runne day and night, both by sea and lād, with great paine and trauayle, and oftentimes in great daunger of lyfe, and Heb. 1. Act. x. all this wil we do to gayne a little péece of money. But al­though that God doth send vs his Prophetes, his Apostles, [Page 18] yea hys owne sonne, and that hee doth teache vs by the mouth of hys seruaunts, which is hys own mouth, through the which he speaketh to vs dayly in hys Church, and doth present vnto vs hys giftes and graces in our own houses, yea euen in our beddes and tables: Yet notwithstandinge we wyl not vouchsafe once to receaue hym, we will vnder­stand nothing of him, nor yet learn any thing of him. Shal we then alledge our ignorance, and excuse our selues by it? Our Lord Iesus Christ did very well vnderstande of thys sycknes, and of the daunger thereof, wherefore he sayde to those people that did follow him more for their bellye, then for any spiritual doctrine: Employ your selues and traueil, not for that meate that perisheth, but for that which endu­reth Iohn. 6. into eternal lyfe, the which the sonne of man shal giue vnto you. When he nameth by the name of meate hys doc­trine, which is the doctrine of saluation, and the saluation which he bringeth vnto vs by meanes of y e same, the which we can finde in none but in him onely: He therefore geueth vs plainly to vnderstand how much this doctrine, and this health are necessary for vs, and how earnestly and diligent lye we shoulde labour for them: for so muche as they are thinges that are much more necessary to eternall lyfe, then is the bodely meate, for the corporal lyfe, and it is so muche more precious, as is the soule more precious then the body.

Of the diligence that is in men to do euyl, and of their neg­ligence to doo vvell.

19 T. THou sayest nothng at all of such as employe theyr whole study and trauayle to do euyl, If euery one of vs would take so great trauayle in the searche of this holy worke, wherof thou speakest, as doth the theefe to rob, or the whore in the vse of her whoredome, we should accomplishe a goodly woorke. The theues rise vp in the night, & put them selues in great daunger and, take very great paynes to cut [Page 19] mens throtes: and we wyll not once lift vp our heade from our pillow to waken vs, and to open our eyes to beholde and consider those thinges that appertayne to our saluati­on. Satan our mortal enemy is so dillgent, and continual­ly lyeth in wayte to find meanes howe to ruinate and de­stroy 1. Peter. [...] vs, and we of our part are vtterly slothful and negli­gent in arming our selues againste his ambusshes and as­saultes, wherby we might auoyde hys snares. Wherefore all thinges wel considered, I see verye small reason where­with to excuse men: For there is no man but maye fynde meanes sufficient to attayne to this knowledge of God. If that we were so careful of the eternal life, as we are of this present lyfe, and would as wyllinglye seeke for the one, as for the other: for ther is nothing that might ayde vs in that behalfe, but God hath geuen it vnto vs.

Of the vices that make men ignoraunt of God and of hys truth, and hovv the seruauntes of God continually bring accusation agaynst them.

20 D. SAynt Paule was not ignorant of thys, and therefore although he saye that he hath obtayned mercy for hys 1. Tun. 1. persecuting the Churche of God throughe ignoraunce, yet doth he not excuse hymselfe by the same, nor letteth to shew the greuousnes of hys synne, calling hymselfe the greatest of synners, a blasphemer, a persecutor, a man full of vio­lence and oppression, and acknowledgeth hym selfe woor­thye of deathe and eternall damnacion. If God of hys great mercye and grace had not succoured hym, whereof he shoulde not haue needed, if that he had not synned, or if that hys ignoraunce mought haue excused hym. For howe good so euer hys meanyng was, or howe greate so euer hys zeale was towarde the lawe of God, yet notwithstandyng his ignoraunce was not wythoute a great portion of that negligence and carelesnesse whyche [Page 20] is naturallye in men as touching the knowledge of God and godlye thynges, nor wythoute some portion of the pride, rashnes, wylfulnesse, presumption, and arrogan­cie of the Phariseis, and of the leauen of hipocrisye and superstition, which are verye great vices, from the whych euen those that are most perfect and holy, cannot well shyft them, although they doo not appeare vnto men. T. If then thys doth happen to such as are of the most perfect sorte, as to Saynt Paule: what shall become then of a sort of glori­ous and arrogant hipocrites, which are much more full of hypocrisy, then of good conscience, and haue a greater care for their owne glory and profyt, then for the glory of God, and the edification of hys church, and haue such an opinion of their owne knowledge, iustice and perfection, that they thinke that no man may amende or correct any iot thereof? For there be very few such ignorant ones amongst the persecutors of the church, as was saint Paule before his cōuersion. D. Ther is no doubt of that. Saint Peter doth also impute vnto ignorance, in the sermon that he made in Hieru­salem Act. 2. vpon the day of Pentecost, that which the Iewes cō ­mitted against our Lord Iesus Christ, in the deliuering of Math. 17. Iohn. 18. him to death, & preferring of Barrabas before him: yet not withstanding doth not he let to lay it greatly to their char­ges, as very murtherers of the true autor of life, and verye sonne of God. T. I perceiue by that thou sayest, that God requireth of vs very great diligence, and a great humility, abiection, and despising of our selues: and that our negli­gence, slothe, presumption, and arrogancye, and our vayne glory and opinion that we haue of our selues, are most commonly the cause of our damnable ignorāce. D. It is euē so.

Of such as doo contemne the knovvledge of God, euen as though they dyd knovv all thinges that appertaine to true Christianitie, and also of the knovvledge that men maye attaine vnto in this life, and hovv to encrease it.

T. I May well vnderstande by these, what excuses those men may alledge, that saye, when they are wylled to 21 enquire of the wyll of God, and of his woorde, and in what sorte they should liue, that they wyl vnderstand and knowe no more in that behalfe then they do already know: for that they do already knowe as muche as they ought to knowe, euen as though a man in thys whole lyfe tyme were able to come to suche perfection of knowledge and vnderstan­ding of godly thinges, that nothing mought be added ther­unto. D. Saynt Paule, who was taken vp into the thyrde 2. Cor. 1 [...]. 13. heauen, and did there vnderstand of thinges, of the whych it is not lawful for any man to speake: was neuer of that opinion. For he doth declare, that all that euer we may vn­derstād vpon the earth, of those matters, is nothing els but 1. Cor. 13. as we should behold a thing in a glasse, or in a darke cloud or mist. Wherfore whilest that we do liue in this world, we must thinke that we are alwayes lyke vnto little children, as touching thys godly vnderstanding, and that we haue neede to profit and increase in the same dayly, euen as doo the little children that are at the schoole: and that we shall neuer see it as it is, vntyl that we be with God, and see him face to face, and know him as he hath knowen vs. For if ther be no man of so excellent a spirite, that euer maye at­tayne vnto the perfect vnderstanding of humaine and vi­sible thinges, nor yet of one of those sciences that appertai­neth vnto this earthlye lyfe: howe great presumption is it then for mā, which is wholy created ignorant, as touching godly things, so muche to challenge to him selfe the know­ledge and vnderstanding of those thinges, of the which the Angels themselues cannot perfectly vnderstand: T. Surely it is a great presumptiō of vs, if we thinke that we be more perfect then are the Angels.

Of the true knovvledge of God, and of the true maner hovv to knovv hys vvyll, and of the contemplatiue and actiue knovvledge of the same.

D. OF the other parte there is one thing to be conside­red in the knowledge and vnderstanding of the wil 22 of God, which thing fewe men doo note. That is, that we may not iudge of that science and knowledge, as wee doo of diuers humane sciences, of the onelye knowledge wher of many men hold them well satisfied, wythoute anye fur­ther practise of the same. For thys godlye knowledge con­sisteth not onelye in contemplacion, requiring nothing but contemplatiue teachers, to instruct the mynde of man, but requyre also the wyll, and actiue Teachers and practi­sers. And for thys cause Christ doth not say onely, hee that wyll knowe, but he that wyll doo the wyll of hym that sent me, he shall knowe of my doctrine, whether it be of God, or Ioh. 7. whether I speake of my selfe. For there are, that for curio­sitye and for some other affection that they haue that are desyrous to know the wyll of God, but not to that ende to direct their lyues according to the same. And therefore our Lord Iesus Christ declareth playnlye by these wordes, that there is nothyng that letteth men from the knowledge of the truthe of God, but onelye the wante of the feare of God, and of good wyll to obey and honoure hym: Where­fore it followeth that there is no true knowledge of God, but onely that whyche is ioyned wyth thys good and prompt wyll, and that none can iudge of the Lordes doc­trine, but those that are of suche a mynde. T. If the mat­ter be so, a man may not thinke, that he vnderstandeth or knoweth anye thing, althoughe he haue all the holye scrip­tures by hart, and that he can deuise and discourse thereof at pleasure lyke an Angell: if he haue not the effecte of that doctrine imprinted in hys hart, and that hee bee as it were clothed wyth the same, in such sort as he may put the same in practise at all tymes.

Of the true study of the holy scriptures, and of the true fruite that commeth of the same.

D. THat is verye true. For if it were sufficient to haue onely a bare knowledge of Gods woorde, and so be­holde 23 it in the ayre, wythout hauing of the wyll reformed by the same, the deuill shoulde in thys sorte exceede al men in religion: For hee hath knowledge and vnderstandyng inoughe, if that he had a wyll according to the same. And therfore, it is not onelye needefull for vs to heare the word of God, and to studye the same, for to vnderstande that, that is contayned in that same doctrine, and then to pro­ceede no further, and to make it as it were a studye of Phi­losophye contemplatiue: But we doo chiefly neede to wrap and clothe vs therein, and to put in vse, and to practise in our lyues that whych we doo vnderstande and knowe, or els to what ende doth our knowledge and vnderstanding serue?

For to what ende doth a manne learne an occupaci­on? Is it for that he wyll neuer vse it, or els onelye to talke of it, wythout practising the same. Wouldest thou thyncke hym perfect in anye occupation, that neuer did practise the same, nor neuer declared hys experience by anye peece of hys woorke? T. No truelye. D. Wouldest thou then thinke hym to be a good Christian, that onelye doth boaste hym of the name and knowledge of Christianitye, wyth­oute the declaryng of the same by hys woorkes. T. No in deede.

Of suche Christians as are ignoraunt of the vvorde of God, and of those that abuse theyr knovvledge in the same.

24 D. ANd nowe, whyche thynkest thou more woorthye of blame, eyther hee that doth knowe no occupacion, and woorketh not: or els hee that hathe a good occupaci­on, and hadde rather to loyter, and to be slothfull and idle, [Page 24] then to woorke at hys occupation? T. Thys last man, whiche doth moste abuse the gyfte of God. Wherefore, if I shoulde see suche men in necessitye, I woulde not verye wyllynglye geue almes to hym that hath had so small care to learne some occupacion, whereby he myghte iustlye lyue: muche lesse to geue vnto hym that had rather fast, and become a begger, then to woorke and trauaile for hys lyuing, when he maye. D. And howe wouldest thou handle hym, that hath a goodlye wyt, and is well exercised and very excellent in some occupacion, and doth trauayle in the same wyth all diligence, but not to doo anye thyng, wherby the glory of God, or the wealth of hys neighbour might be auaunced: but rather to let and hynder both the one and the other, and to lyue in all villanye and filthines? T. I would iudge hym woorthy to be hanged, or at the least to be whipped. For if the others be worthy to be accompted vnprofitable and wicked, this kinde of man is much more woorthye to be so accompted of: in as muche as he is not Matth. 24. and. 25. onelye content to hyde in the earth the talentes that God hath geuen hym, and so to keepe them wythout yeldyng a­ny profyt of them: but that woorse is, hee bestoweth them wyckedly, employing them in all that he maye, to the hyn­deraunce and losse of hys mayster, and to make warres a­gaynste hym, at whose handes hee hath receaued them. D. Then consider thou wel, whether the Christian be wor­thy of great blame, that hath no vnderstanding of Christi­anitie, nor of that occupation, wherof he beareth the name. What honour is this man worthye of, that hath the know­ledge therof, and abuseth the same, and doth not onely, not practise the same in life, but conuerteth the giftes y t he hath receaued of God, into weapons wherwith to make warres agaynst him, and agaynst his owne saluation: to what end serueth this knowledge? T. It serueth to his more speedie condemynation, and to encrease his iudgement more and more.

Hovv much necessary the study of the vvord of God is, for all men during this life, hovve apte and hovv vvyse so euer they be.

25 D. FOr this cause it is more then necessary, that we studie continuallye in the scole of the Lorde. Fyrst there to learne how to iudge betwene the good and the euill, & that which pleaseth or displeaseth God, & that which is for our saluation & dampnation, which we can not do vnlesse that we haue our mindes lightened by the worde and spirite of God, for so much as there is in vs, whiles that we dwell in our owne naturall lyfe, nothing ells but ignorance & dark­nes. And when we are once thus taught, it is then nedefull that we geue our whole desire vnto it, which can not be, for 1. Cor, 12. so much as it is wholye peruerted and corrupted, hating that which is good, and louing that which is euill, if it bee not also reformed, forced, & vrged continuallye to the same by that very meane. Wherefore to conclude, for so much as we haue alwaies ignorance within vs, and that most com­monly we doe not that good which we knowe, we haue al­wayes neede of this teacher, to instruce vs in that wherof we are yet ignoraunt, and put vs in minde of that which we forget, after that we haue learned it, and to cause vs to practise that which we doe alreadye knowe. T. And in thys sort thou doest conclude for a full resolution, y e al men, how wise so euer they be, haue alwayes neede to learne in thys scoole, euen to the death, and that both the learned and ig­norant, shal alwayes fynde inough ther to learne. D. It is so. For there are formes so highe in that schoole, that no ly­uing man shal euer be able to attayne vnto them. Where­fore when we may be in that schoole, yea although it be in the most low formes, we ought not a litle to esteme it, but to thinke it a great grace of God, whose good wil and pleasure it is to accept vs into the number of hys schollers.

Of the desired ignorance, and of such as are vvillinglye ignorant.

T. FOr so much as thou hast spoken of formes and orders of scholers, I woulde fayne know in what place thou 26 wouldest place this kinde of mē, of whom we haue not yet spoken: among whom, when they haue bene required to go to heare the word of God, I haue seene some of them refuse it, saying that they wil not heare it, fearing least that after they haue heard it, & knowē the will of God by y e same: they should be more faultie, in as much as they did not obey the same. D. It is not possible to finde such men that bare so shameleslye once to open their mouthes in such sort. T. I speake that which I haue heard with mine own eares. But how manye thinckest thou that there are, who when they haue knowen that the word of God is wholye contrarye to their affections, and that it teacheth nothing but y t which is good and holy, they will for that cause in no wyse heare it? for so much as they feare to heare that which shall not like them, and y • they desire not at al to know those good things that they may learne of y e same, and laste of all to do them, when they haue vnderstoode & knowen them. D. The igno­rance of such is an affected & voluntarie ignorance, much lesse worthye of pardon, then is that of those of whom we spake before. For these men where they should studye to a­uoyde ignorance, and to become wise in the knowledge of God, seeke meanes as much as in them is to be still igno­raunt, and to flie the knowledge of God, without the which they are not onely vnworthy, to be accompted Christians, but vnworthye to be accompted men. These mē put them selues in great peryl, they are of the number of those y t the Psalmiste speaketh of, which stoppe their eares, as doe the Psal. 57. Aspes and Serpentes against the voyce of the inchaunter, fearing y t being inchaunted by y e word of God, they should lose their poyson, and their serpentiue and deuelish nature, the which they would still possesse. T. It is very true.

How that the publicatiō that God hath made of his vvord, and the declaration that he hath geuē of himself and of hys [Page 27] vvill euen from the beginning, maketh the ignoraunce of men to be vvithout excuse.

27 D. IF that the subiect of any prince be taken, and haue of­fended the prince his lawes, after that they haue beene published lawfullye by sounde of trompet through out the whole countrye: shall he then say that he was ignoraunt of them, and so be excused▪ T. I thinke not so, for that shoulde make men carelesse for the searche of the vnderstanding of the princes lawes; and then would euery man alledge such excuses: and by these meanes y e lawes should haue no place, and the maiestie of the prince be had in contempt, & all hys lawes and ordinaunces should be but a mockerye, and the publication of them shoulde be no more auaylable, then if they were not published at all: for the publicatiō is for none other purpose, but to take away all occasions by the which men may pretend ignoraunce. D. But if y t the prince were aduertised that such a man had bene admonished to hearkē to the publication of his lawes and ordinaunces, and that he woulde nothing vnderstande thereof, but did all that he coulde possible because that he would heare nothing of thē, to the entent that he might be the more voide of constrainte to obserue them: shoulde that be an excuse for him towards his prince? T. No, but should make him more inexcusable & more worthy of blame, for y e contempt in y e behalfe shoulde be very great & not sufferable. D. Then if it be so y t a prince can not endure to haue his maiestie so contempned & dispi­sed: May God which is y e Soueraigne prince of all princes, endure it toward his maiesty, after so great a proclamatiō of his wil, as he hath cōtinually made vnto men, euen frō y e beginning of y e world, & doth daily by maruellous meanes.

Of the meanes by the vvhich God hath, and doth declare himself dayly to men.

28 T. I Pray thee declare vnto me somwhat particularlye, by what meanes he doth this wherof y u speakest. D. First he doth it by the firmament, and by the earth, and by al his [Page 28] creatures: which as continuall preachers, neuer cease day, nor night, to preache vnto vs the knowledge & maruelous workes of that same great God and prince their creator, euen as Dauid and S. Paule do witnesse. After y t the great Psal. 1 [...]. Rom. 1. Act. 14. 17. endeuour of so many Patriarches, Prophets, Apostles and auncient Doctors, with a marueilous nūber of other good seruauntes of God, who by their pure and holy doctrine, good lyfe and conuersation, haue filled y t whole earth with the knowledge of God, and also do teach vs at this present day by their holy writinges. But what shall we saye of the very sonne of God, who came into the world in proper per­son, to make this publication in the moste solemne maner that euer was made in the world? And euen at this present day, how many and sundrye meanes hath God geuen vs to be instructed by, eyther by the mouth of diuerse which he sendeth vnto vs dayly, or els by bookes written in all lan­guages, sent forth into the worlde, to all nations and regi­ons of the same, by his most marueilous prouidence, which thing shall make vs all to be vtterly without excuse. Wher­fore we may well say with the Prophet: The people which Ose. 4. are ignoraunt shall be beaten, and because that thou haste contempned and refused knowledge, I wil contempne thée and cast thee from me also.

Of those that cloke their rebellion agaynste the vvorde and vvill of God, vnder colour of obedience vvhich they ovve to the lavves that theyr princes haue made agaynste the same: & of such as commit the charge of their consciences to their curates and pastours.

29 T. THere are yet others y t haue a litle better colour, which say, that they wil beleue as theyr princes do, and that they are bounde to obeye all their lawes and ordinaunces. There are also an other sorte which committe them selues wholy into the handes of their Bishops and curates, which are their pastours, and spirituall fathers, and onely those [Page 29] that haue the charge of their soules, and consciences, and shal render accompt, and endure the punishment for them, if that through their negligence they be euill instructed. D. I feare that it fareth with many of those mē that haue such shyftes, as it dyd with the Citizens of Ierusalem, which greatly marueiled to see their Lordes and rulers to suffer Iesus Christ without contradiction to teach openly in their temple, cons [...]dering that before y t time they sought meanes to put him to death, all y e while that they thought that their gouernours and pastours condempned both Iesus Christ and his doctrine, and that they forbad that any man should speake of him: this was a sufficient empeachment to hinder them from cōming to him. But afterward when they sawe that they had left of to pursue him, and that they wer of the opinion that they had chaunged their purpose, and dyd ac­knowledge Iesus Christ to be the true Christ, they did then no more depend vpon the iudgementes and consciences of the rulers and prelates, nor would in any wyse followe the opinion that they then knewe that they had of Christ, but builded them selues vpō fayre theologie, and began to dis­pute with them selues to be a hindraunce to thē selues, say­ing: Iohn. 7. we know well from whence this fellowe is. But when the Christ shall come, no man shall know from whence he is. Wherfore do they not now saye we must acknowledge him for such an one, for that, y t our pastours do so. We do here sée the nature of man is prompt to followe rather euill examples then good. T. It is euen so. D. And on the other part I can not say, whether that these mē that would haue it seene to the worlde, that they haue so good an opinion of their princes, and are so readye to obey their lawes and or­dinaunces, woulde make any great conscience to betraye and sell them euen in their great neede, if there were any goodly occasion offered vnto them by other princes better, to aduaunce them to honours & estates, then by their own. But I would gladly know whether they do make so great [Page 30] difficultie to violate and breake the good statutes that are made by their princes, for the maintenaunce of their com­mon welth, and to withholde from them, if they might safe­ly do it without daunger of their person, any part of y e tri­bute & custome that is due vnto them by Gods ordinaunce: Rom. 13. Math. 22. as they doe to transgresse those wicked lawes whiche are made contrary to all right & equitie for to hinder the course of the Gospell, & would seeke to vnderstand the wil of God, and to know those things that are necessarye for the health of their soules, & to serue God as he himselfe hath cōmaun­ded in his law! I feare y t this great obedience which y e grea­test number of thē do beare toward their princes and their lawes, procedeth rather of rebelliō which they haue in their hartes against God: then of y e truth & good affection whiche they beare toward their prince and his lawes. But because they dare not declare opēly the malice that is in ther harts, they are very glad to haue this colour, & would rather haue tyrantes to their princes, which shoulde forbyd thē to heare the voyce of the Lord, then to haue good & Christiā princes which should compell thē to heare, serue, and honour God.

Of those vvhich cōmit idolatries to their princes, preferring their lawes before the lawes of God, & what autoritie Gods word hath ouer all men, and ouer all their lawes.

30 T. I Feare that there are many such, but there are many others that are not the worste people of the world, but yet they are idolaters of their princes. D. Thou dost right­ly terme such men idolaters of their princes, for in that they take their princes for their law in matters of religiō & con­science, and seeke not otherwyse to vnderstande the will of God, they make them their Gods and their idoles, and doe them great wronge, for it apperteyneth to no prince nor to any creature what soeuer or how excellent he be, no not to the very Angels of God, to geue lawes of religion & of the seruice of God, but onely to God himselfe, vnto whom this [Page 31] seruice & the honour of such thinges doth appertaine. And therfore S. Paule sayth, that if he himself, yea if an Angell Galath. i. cōming frō heauen shoulde declare any other Gospell then y t which he hath taught, which is y e true Gospell of Christ, let y e same Angell be a cursed. If he make the very Angells subiecte to y e word of God, how much rather should all men which are but mortall creatures be subiecte to the worde of God? For vnto whom doth it belong to geue lawes, eyther to the prince or els to his subiectes? T. It is for the prince to geue lawes, & for the subiectes to receaue & obserue y e same. D. Well then if religion haue none other regard, but to the honour & seruice of y e onely God, and y t his pleasure is that none shal haue power of y e soules & consciences of men, but onely he himself, and y t he hath as great authoritie ouer the greatest Monarches, Emperours, Kings, princes & lordes, as he hath ouer the meanest of their subiectes, how great a presumption should this be of them: to dare take in hand to geue lawes to their soueraigne prince (I saye of those y t are but his subiectes & vassalles) to cōmaund y t men shall serue him according to their appoyntment, & not to his? T. That were to be Lord & not subiecte, maister and not seruant. D. Would they them selues endure this at y e hands of y e grea­test of their subiectes? And yet is there no suche comparison betwene God & them, as is betwene them & their subiectes. For they are mortall men as their subiectes are, they maye erre as other men may. And fall by the iuste iudgementes of God, frō rule into seruitude & subiection, yea oftentimes into y e subiection of their own subiectes, as it hath oftētimes happened to many: for that they would not obey God, but tooke in hand to be aboue him, none of these thinges maye happen to God.

Of the office of good princes and good subiectes.

31 T. IT is not then the office of a good prince, to abolishe the orders of religion, which God hath geuen, or to forbid his subiectes to followe the same, eyther els to chaunge thē [Page 32] and to geue and establishe others at his pleasure. D. This is easye to vnderstand, but in the contrarye, his office is to cause his subiectes to obserue them by all meanes possible, and he himself to be y e fyrst, to geue good example, y t shoulde obserue those lawes which God hath geuen vnto him, and to gouerne his people according to the same: for he is ordei­ned of God, to be a prince for none other purpose. And ther­fore the Lord did cōmaund that the booke of the law should be red to the king, euen as sone as he was chosen, to the end Rom. 13. 1. Tim. 1. Deut. 1 [...]. he should know how to gouerne both himself and the peo­ple cōmitted to his charge, according to the doctrine of the same. If he be then such an one as he ought to be, he will in no wise that his subiectes shal do him that honour, which in no wyse appertayneth vnto him: but will in any wise haue that reserued to God, vnto whō onely it is due. He thinketh that his subiectes can do to him no greater honour then to honour God, as they ought to do, for his honour dependeth vpon the honour of God, and he can not misse to be wol ho­noured and faythfullye serued of his subiectes, if that both he and his subiects do truely & faithfully serue God. Wher­fore his subiectes shoulde doe him the greatest wronge, and the greatest dishonour that is possible to imagine, in ge­uing to him y e honour which is not due vnto him, nor ought of him to be accepted, for it should be to set him in the place of God, and to make him an idole, & a verye deuill: for that it is an honour which the deuill alwaye desireth, to be este­med in the place of God. D. He hath alway shewed it euen from the beginning.

Hovve those men obeye the deuill, and not their princes, vvhich obey any lavves, by the vvhich it is forbidden men truely to serue God.

32 T. ANd if a mā should finde any prince of that vnspeake­able pryde, as there haue beene heretofore amongest the Emperours, Kinges, and Heathen princes, and as the [Page 33] Pope is at this day in Christendome, folowyng their trace and example, the subiectes were no more boūd to obey hym, in that behalfe, then to obey the deuill, whiche is in dede a greater prince then all Tyrantes, and all such as loke for lyke honors: for he is called y e God of this worlde, the prince of this worlde, and the master of all blindenes: vnto whome all these litle tyrantes are but subiectes and vassals, and as 2. Cori, 1. Iohn. 12 Ephe. 26 it were of his litle clawes. And therfore, when subiectes are brought to this extremitie, they may lawfully vse, not one­ly the same that the Apostles did, who aunswered in the like Act. 5. case, it is better to obey God then mā: but they may alledge also in their defence these words, it is better to obeye, God then the Deuell. For hee that obeyeth man agaynste the commaundemente of Godde hee obeyeth deuill by whō he is possessed, and therfore shall inherito the inheri­tance with the deuil and with the tyraunts, of whom they did stande more in feare, then of God.

Of the lavvfull lavves and statutes of Christian princes, and vvhat men ought to consider in them.

33 T. I Do thinke that thy meaning in this, is not, but that it is lawfull for Christiā princes to gyue such lawes and ordinaunces to their subiectes, as are agreable to the worde of God, to leade them into true Religion. D. Howe should I condempne that, for so much as I say, it is their onely of­fice and duety for in so doyng, they them selues preach the lawe of God, but that wherof I spake before, I meane of such lawes & edictes as are made directly agaynst the worde of God, either to abolishe, or els to deface the true religion. T. Such as do so, are very tyrants & not princes. D. Doubt you not but Nabuchodnesar, Darius, and Cyrus, these heathen Daniel. 3. 4. Es [...]r. [...] Emperours & Kynges, that haue made so good lawes, for the publishyng of y e knowledge of God, thorow out their whole Empires and dominiōs, and haue also so well ayded the true seruauntes of God, but they shall ryse in the iudge­ment of the Lorde, to accuse greuously those princes y t haue ben renoumed in the nomber of Christians, and haue after [Page 34] so great light of the Gospell, letted & hindered the preaching of the knowledge of God and his will, in the aduauncemēt wherof the afore named haue trauayled.

Of such as are vnfaithfull seruauntes in princes Courtes: and of their Councels agaynst God, and of those princes, that do rather fauour such seruauntes, then those that are of cō ­science vvhole and sounde.

34 T. IT maye bee that there are Christian princes, whiche make lawes verye contrary, to those that they woulde make, if they had in their Courtes such Courtiers, as was Daniel, Es [...]ras, and Nehemie, whiche would procure and sturre them vp to glorifie the name of God, as did these good seruauntes and holy Prophetes of God, amonge the others. But in the stede of such, they haue oftentymes those that are cleane contrarye, who as muche as they may do, let them from the hearynge and vnderstandynge of the woorde of God, whereby they myght learne trulye to vn­derstande theyr office and duety, and they do not let by all meanes possible, to procure them to persecute that doctrine, whiche they oughte chiefely to aduaunce and mayntayne. D. It is not greatly to be maruelled at: for suche men of­ten tymes deale with princes, as doth the fowler with the byrdes that he setteth for hys stale. For they establishe such Religion as pleaseth them, and semeth vnto them best for theyr purpose, to noryshe and mayntayne theyr ambition and theyr bellyes. And bycause they want power to autho­rise their lawes and ordinaunces, whereby to mayntayne their abuse, they abuse the power and authoritie of the prin­ces in that behalfe, trayning them by their wicked and lend councell to do whatsoeuer pleaseth them. And as these men do often tymes abuse the ignoraunces and negligences of princes, euen so on the other part, princes oftentimes abuse the malitious mindes of such men: to serue their ambition, tyrannics, and wicked enterprises. Wherfore they do more esteme them beyng such, then if they were more honest, for [Page 35] they could not endure them if they were honest, and would giue them faythfull councell, both for the honour of God, and the health both of theyr owne soules, and of theyr sub­iectes also, bycause they haue a desire to obey God, and to set his people in Christian libertie to serue hym, nor yet to reforme the Churche according to his worde, but rather to peruert the true religion, and to make it serue to their pur­pose, euen as Ieroboam did. They had rather to haue such Prophetes, & Priestes as had Ieroboam, Achab, & Iesabell, and such as were the Magitiens of Pharao, the more clenly therby to resist gods truth, thē to haue the true seruants of God that folow the trace of the true Prophetes & Apostles, And for so much as both they & their people desire such, & do well deserue to haue such, God doth send them euen such as they wish for: but it is in his wrath, as he threatneth by hys Prophets, to the end they may haue the more mete matter, dayly to harden theyr hartes more & more, and more spedy­ly Esay. 3. 29. Ose. 5. 7. to hasten theyr destruction.

Of the Iudgement of the Christian doctrine, and of those by vvhom it must be reported, & of the princes duety in that behalfe, and of the faulte of those that in the same, despise the Councell of the seruauntes of God.

35 T. I Do feare also that ther be many that trust to much in matters of Religion, to those that falsely name themselues to be of the Churche, as Prelates and Pastours of the Churche, and that it fareth with thē, euē as it doth with those that commit wholly their soules, and cōsciences into y e hands of their Curates and Prelats. D. It is certain that in all states there are some that thincke of religion as they do of some sciēce or handy craft. Wherfore when there happeneth any controuersie, they think y t the knowlege therof doth in no wise appartaine to thē, but y t it is ynough for thē to committe the decidyng of the matter into the handes of the masters of the occupation, and thē to giue their sentēce, [Page 36] accordyng to the reporte that those men shal make, and to esteme done and concluded, what soeuer they conclude. T. It semeth to me that their opiniō is not very euill. For who can better iudge of an art, or occupation, then the masters therof? Wer it not a great presumptiō for any man, to take vpon him to iudge of that, whiche he neither vnderstandeth nor knoweth? D. This that thou sayest, is not all together voyde of apparance: but here must we take good hede, that no man be deceiued, for syth that here is the question, whe­ther that men of occupation, shall iudge of thinges apper­taining to their occupation, thou must thē vnderstand, that [...]p man can truly iudge of the Christian doctrine, but such as are true Christians: for no man can vnderstand the hea­uenly language, and the language of God, but onely the children of God, and those that are heauenly, and not earth­ly. Wherfore I do more esteme, the iudgement of a simple laborer, being one of the elect of god, and regenerate by his holy spirite, then that of all the Popes, Byshops, Priestes, Philosophers and Doctours, whiche shalbe infidels or hipo­crites, for such are not of the occupatiō wherof we speake. And as touching that whiche thou sayest, that I do not a­lowe the councell or acte of a prince, if he take in hand to do any thyng of his owne head, in matter of Religion, without askyng at the mouth of the Lord, and takyng aduise & coū ­cell of him, by the helpe of those, vnto whom he hath gyuen speciall charge to open, and make manifeste his will vnto men, and to declare his lawe vnto them. And for this cause he hath don this honor to his Prophets, and true Ministers of his Churche, to call them his mouth, promising that he will put hie word into their mouth. And when the princes or people haue taken in hand any thynge, that hath apper­tained to the honor of God, and to their health, without en­quiring of the Lordes will, at the handes of his Prophetes, he hath rebuked them, bycause they dyd not aske at hys Esay. 1. 30. Ose. 1. mouth, & that they haue weaued their cloth, but not by his [Page 37] spirite, he speaketh to the same purpose by Malachie. The lyps of the Prieste do kepe knowledge: men shall enquire of Mal [...]. i. the law at his mouth, for he is the aungel and messenger of the Lord of hostes.

Of the causes vvhy the princes should enquire of the vvill of God at the mouth of his Ministers, and of the giftes of God, vvith the vvhiche he endueth his Ministers.

36 T. IT semeth vnto me, that it is very commendable in a prince, chiefly when there is question of the reformatiō of the Church, to enquire in that behalfe, of the will of God at the hands of those that are appointed by God, to declare the same vnto hym. D. The thyng is not onely honest, but so necessarie as nothing is more necessarie. For albeit the prince be of the wisest of his Realme, yet notwithstanding, he can not knowe all thyngs, but may oftentymes deceaue him selfe, euen in his owne deuises. Wherefore, if he will at any tyme vse the counsell of his counsellers, in matters of lesse importaūce, or at the least he is not thought to be wise, if that he do contemne it: howe much is it more requisite to do it, in a matter of so great weight, whiche toucheth the honor of God, and the health, or damnation of euery man, and not onely of the person of the prince, but also of all hys subiectes? T. Suche a matter is well worthy to be conside­red. D. Of the other side it is very lyke, that a good Pa­stour, whiche maketh speciall profession of the study of the holy Scriptures, and hath commission from God to expoūd them to others, is more exercised then others, whiche are lesse occupyed in the same, and more occupyed in other af­faires, chiefly princes, whiche are dayly troubled with busi­nes vpon busines, from all partes. T. That is very true. D. This is also to be considered: That althoughe God be bound to no sorte of men or estates, but that he may distri­bute his giftes and graces to whom it pleaseth him: yet for all that the matter is so, that he hath a great regarde to that [Page 38] holy Ministerye, whiche he hath ordeyned in hys Churche. Wherfore he doth commonly more adorne with his giftes and graces, those whiche he hath iustly and lawfully called to the same, then any others. In like sorte that for the loue of the same, he doth bestow often tymes goodly and excellēt Num. 14. Iohn. 11. 18 gifts, euē vpon those that are euil, to the end they shal serue in his Church, of the whiche he hath continually a singular care, we haue manifest example hereof, in Balaā, and Cai­phas: for althogh he wer as euil a mā as the erth doth bear, & that y e gift of god did profit him nothing as touching him selfe: yet notwithstanding for the loue of him, whose persō he doth represēt (as s. Iohn doth right wil giue vs to vnder­stād) Iohn. xv God to honor this holy ministery ordained in his law, hath made him to Prophecie: Althoughe he haue reproued y t man & all his coūsels. T. This is worthy to be cōsidered. D. Then if princes and al other men do this honor to those that are skilfull in any thing, to demaunde their aduise and coū ­sell, and in that behalfe to be gouerned rather by them, then by any others, they should do great dishonour, not onely to the Ministers of God, but also to their ministery, & to God which is auctor therof, if they esteme thē lesse in their estate, and do make lesse accoūpt of their counsell then they do of the counsell of others whiche are not of like price.

Of the dishonour that those kynde of men doo vnto God, vvhiche doo not vouchesafe to enquire of his vvill at the hādes of his Ministers, and vvhat authoritie the Ministerie of the Churche hath ouer all men.

37 T. THey would not do them so great honor, as did the an­cient Pagās and Idolaters, here to fore to their false Prophetes. For bycause they did holde them for true Pro­phetes, yet in their error they had thys reuerence towardes God, that hardly durst they enterprise any thyng that was of importaūce: chiefly in things y t appartained to Religion, without inquiringe of the will of their Gods, at the handes of their Prophetes. D. Thou sayest truth. And therefore it [Page 39] should be a great dishonor & reproch to those that are Chri­stians, if they do not God and his Prophets so great honor at least, as did the Pagans and Idolaters to the deuill and his Ministers: thincking to honor God, and his seruauntes. And beside this, yf ther were none other reason but onely this: which is, to wit, that God hath willed that his Church should be gouerned by the ministerie of his word, which if it wer not, but only to obserue the order, that God him selfe hath appointed: yet is it requis [...]te that all men, both great & small, submit thē to that holy ministery, & to y t order which god hath established in y e same, as al the good kinges & prin­ces of the people of God haue alwayes done, notwithstan­dyng they haue ben maruelously endued with the giftes of God. Was ther euer prince, kyng, or Prophet, more excellēt then Dauid, whiche was both a king, and a Prophet? T. I thincke not. D. Yet notw tstāding, whē he would gyue order for the building of the tēple, & for y t offices & ministeries ap­partayning to y t seruice of God, he did take in hād nothing w tout the aduise of y e Prophetes of y e Lord, & namely of Na­thā: by 2. Sam. 7 i. Chro. 17. whō he vnderstode, that y e Lords wil was y t the tēple should not builded by him, although he had determined, and purposed it, but by his sonne Salomon. In like maner Mo­ses, Exod. 1 [...]. that great and excellent Prophete, did he contemne the counsell of Ieth [...]o, his father in law, whiche was of farre meaner estate then he?

Of the meane and order that princes should kepe in iudge­ment of thinges, appertaining to Religion, and to the reformation of the same.

38 T. ALl those things do confirme the opiniō of those y t wil cōmit all things y • touch Religion, to those y t are cal­led mē of the Church, without dealing therin thē selues. D. Yf thou diddest wel vnderstād me, I did not cōclude y t prin­ces, & other men should so addresse thē, to the Ministers of y e Church, in matters of Religiō & cōscience, that they should not deale therin so far as their office should require, and to [Page 40] take good hede to what kinde of men they came: least that in stede of commyng to the true Prophetes of God and Ministers of Iesus Christe, they should addresse them to false Prophetes and Ministers of Antechriste, as often tymes it happeneth. T. This matter is perillous. D. Therefore, as those men are greatly to be blamed, that make none ac­coumpt of the true Ministers of God, and of hys Churche, but wyll gouerne the Churche, and determine of those thynges which appertayne to the reformation of the same, folowing their own fantasie and opinion, or els as though they had to determine of some worldly policie: euen so on the contrarie part, these kinde of men, are greatly to be bla­med, whiche will not deale in it at all, but suffer others to determine of it euen as it pleaseth them, and are ready to execute that whiche others shall appoynte, without ha­uynge any consideration of the thynge them selues. But euen as shall please the others, without due examynyng and vnderstandynge what they do. For, as the firste sorte vsurpe a greate tyranny ouer the Churche, and ouer the Ministerie of the same, lyke vnto that of the Antichriste, who hath plucked to hym selfe the authoritie to dispose of the Churche at hys pleasure: in lyke maner this laste sorte do wronge to them selues, and do frame and establishe a derye daungerous tyrannye, both agaynst them selues, & agaynste the whole Church, and do confirme Antechriste in the possession whiche he hathe all ready vsurped ouer them. For albeit that a iudge, before he gyue sentence, and before he wyll execute the same, do aske the aduise and counsell of hys assistauntes, yet doth he not gyue hys iudgemente accordynge to theyr sentences, vntil he haue wel ex­amined and vnderstood them. Otherwise he should put him selfe in greate daunger, and hys office should not be great­ly differyng from the office of a hange man. For the hange man doth not assiste in the counsell of the iudges, he gyueth no sentence, he hath no voyce, nor medleth with theyr pro­cesse [Page 41] or causes of those that are delyuered into hys handes: he hath nothing to do but only to execute that which is gy­uen hym in charge. But a iudge, hathe farre other autho­ritie and greater charge, the whiche Pilate dyd very well knowe. And therefore he woulde not condemne Iesus Christe vpon the onely reporte of the Iewes, when they had brought hym vnto hym, all ready condemned in theyr Counsell: nor was forthwith preste to commaunde hym to be executed as an euill doer, accordynge to their desire, but did diligently enquire of the causes, for the which they would haue hym to be condemned: gyuing them playnely to vnderstande, that he woulde not be their hangemen, but woulde do the office of a Iudge, whiche is duely to examine the cause. And if he see the sentence of hys assistauntes to be vniuste, he oughte not to folowe it, but to reiecte it, accor­dyng to the authoritie that God hath gyuen hym: and he ought to put in vse that, whiche is written in the lawe to Exod, 10 that same purpose. Thou shalte not folowe the multitude, to do euill, for if he gyue sentence contrary to ryght and equitie, he shall make aunswere for the same before God. For if he know it be vniuste, and do consent and agree to it, or els do dissemble the matter, or els thorowe negligence he hath not sought to vnderstand the truth of it. he can not excuse hymselfe but that he is greatly culpable before God. T. That is very true.

Hovve men ought to haue greater care for those matters that appertayne to Religion: then for any others, and the reasons vvhy.

39 D. MOreouer, the case in matters of Religion is not lyke to that of other matters, or of other artes, sciences, occupations and estates. For whē there is question in mat­ters of Religion, we haue not a matter in hand of a péece of money, or of a péece of lande, or for an other man whiche toucheth not vs at all. But a matter of the greatest impor­tance, [Page 42] that may be, and toucheth all men in generall and in particular, so neare, as nothynge in the worlde doth so nearely touch them. Yf there were question, of a péece of an earthly inheritaunce, or els of our honor & fame, we would not so greatly put others in trust, but y t we wold put to our own hād: & would know in what sort y e matter should passe. And further, if it wer a matter y t touched our life, we would not slepe the matter, but would be so much y t more carefull, we would leaue no meane vnsought for, y t myght stand vs in stede. T. Experiēce teacheth it plainly. D. Nowe in this matter, wherof we speake, y e question is of y e greatest honor or dishonor y t euer may happē vnto vs: here is y e questiō of a maruelous great honor & glory, or els of an extreme shame & confusion, whiche we shall once receaue, before the face of God, & before al mē which euer haue ben, are, or shalbe, this questiō is of an eternall inheritaūce: to wit, of Paradise or els of hell, here is the questiō of our death, or of our life, not onely tēporal, but eternal, Wherfore I do gretly maruel of those y t haue so great trust in y e sond fayth of their Curates, Priestes, Monckes, Byshops and Prelates, whiche cōmitte thē wholly into their handes, both body and soule. T. There are no small nomber of those that do so.

Of those men that make greater accoumpt of their purses, then of their consciences, and of the daūger into the which they cast thēselues, that cōmit such charge to false teachers, and they them selues to haue no great regard to the same.

40 D. I Would gladly vnderstād of those mē, if they would in the like sorte trust thē with their purses, & neuer aske thē any accōpt, nor neuer haue regard, to their gouernmēt. T. I do not beleue it. For there is no prince nor other, y t committeth y e charge of his affaires to others, but y t somtime he will know, in what sort they are passed & done. D. Thē their purse is dearer vnto thē, thē is their cōsciēce or their soule, [Page 43] or els y t inheritaūce of y e kingdom of heauē: for they put their trust in such, & cōmit the whole charge of their cōsciences, & soules to those, that they would hardly trust for a couple of crownes: they esteme very slēderly, y t price which our Lord Iesus Christ hath payed for thē, whiche is much more preci­ous i. Pet. [...] thē all the gold & all y e siluer, y t euer was in y e world. T. They do trust, as I haue already said, y t these men shal aunwere for thē. D. It is very true y t they shal aūswere, but so much y e worse for those for whō they shall aunswere: for so much as they shall not by meanes therof, be acquited of the det: for if it must needes be shall, that they aunswere, for default of that debt whiche they owe to our greate Lorde, whiche shall not be payd vnto him, according as their office doth require, it shalbe thē for that the same is lost. The Lord speaking of this matter, saith by his Prophet Ezechiel, y t he Ezech. 3. 33 wil require at y t hāds of the shepherd, the bloud of the shepe which shal perish through his default, it foloweth thē, y t the shepe shalbe lost, whose blud y e lord wil require. Whē a murderer hath slayne a man, & is taken vpon the same, he must Exampl [...] satisfie the iustice with hys own lyfe: yet notwithstandyng the payne, whiche he shall endure shalbe small recompense, to hym that is slayne. Wherfore I do not thinke, that those men whiche make so small accoumpte of the lyfe of theyr soules, woulde lose their bodely lyfe, for such a price. T. I am of your oppinion. D. If a man do vs wrong, either in spoylynge vs of our worldlye goods, or els in vsinge any violence agaynste our personnes, and we endure the same patiently for the honoure of God: this same shalbe no losse vnto vs before God, but a great profite, for God hath pro­mised, great rewarde to those that shall suffer wrongfully. In this behalfe none shal sustayn the losse, but he onely that Mar. v hathe done the wronge: for he hathe hurte hys soule and there is no hurte that can so hurte a man, as can that hurte. But in thys matter whereof we doo nowe speake, the soule is not onely hurte, but slayne: wherefore the losse can [Page 44] neuer be recouered. And therefore I would wishe that such as are of that opinion, should well consider that whiche Ie­sus Christ sayd, let them alone, for they are blynd, and lea­ders of the blinde: If the blynde leade the blynde, both shall fall into the dyke. He doth not saye that the blynde guyde Mathe. 15. shall alone fall into the dyke, but he also that shalbe led by hym: wherefore that councell is best to be folowed whiche Iesus Christe hym selfe doth gyue in that behalfe, in the same passage or texte, he doth not say: Folow such leaders, and if they lead you wronge, they shall endure the punishe­ment for you, [...]nd you shall go free: but he gyueth expressed commaundement to flee from them, declaryng playnely in what perill they put them selues, that folow such guides.

Of the care that euerye man ought to haue, to knovve the vvay of saluation, and hovv they ought to bevvare of false Prophetes and seductors of the people.

41 T. THen we ought not to be so carelesse, but that we must enquire of that same waye by the whiche we shoulde passe, to the ende that we mighte easely knowe, if that in stede of leadyng vs in the ryght waye, they should leade vs wronge. D. It is very true: and also we ought not to be so rashe and foolish, that we should sodenly take guydes and conductors, without hauyng any knowlege or testimony of them. For if we should but passe thorow a wood, or some o­ther passage whiche were hard and difficill, we woulde not take a man at aduenture to be our guide, of whō we could not assure vs, least that in stede of guidyng vs the right waye, he should bryng vs into the lappes of theeues to cut our throates, as it happeneth oftentimes to many. T. Yet not withstandynge, thys way, which we must passe, is the moste daungerous of al: for there nedeth no greate stray­ing, to loose vs all. D. Therfore it is more nedefull to take good hede in this matter, then in any matter els. And for this cause are we so often warned in the holy Scriptures, [Page 45] not onely by the Prophets and Apostles, but also by Iesus Christ our Lorde, to take heede of false Prophets, which Math. v [...] Actes. x Roma. xvi. Phill. 3 come to vs in sheepes clothing, and within are rauening Wolues. This admonition is not geuen vnto vs without cause. T. That is doubtlesse.

Hovv that the admonitions vvhich are vvritten in the ho­ly Scriptures, agaynst the false Prophets, do make them to be vvithout excuse, that suffer them selues to be seduced by them.

42 D. FOr so much then that we are all aduertised, and that the spirit of God hath geuen vs so many markes and signes, wherby to knowe these false Prophets, we may no more pretende ignoraunce in thys poynte for our defence, then in the other matters wherof we haue already spoken. For the case is not lyke with a Christian, in matters of Christian religion, as it is in other artes and sciences, for that it sufficeth any man, because he cā not learne all artes and sciences, to learne one or two, and to be excellent in some one science. But the substance of religiō is of an other nature, it is an arte, it is a science and occupation, which al men ought to vnderstand, although all men may not be of like excellencie in y e knowledge of the same, nor yet be suf­ficient to execute the office of a Prophet, or of an Apostle, or of a pastour and Doctor in the church, yet at the least euery mā is bound to knowe so much, as he may vnderstand how to frame and gouerne himself according to the wil of God, to know how to embrace that which is good, and to refuse that which is euill, and to knowe how to kepe himself from false Prophets and seducers: for he that cā not do this, shall paye for his ignoraunce, as it hath bene sufficiently proued by the reasons before alledged. Wherefore euery man hath great occasion before al other things, diligently to cōmend himself to God in these affayres, with certaine affiaunce to be heard, for he speaketh not this in vayne: seeke & you shall [Page 46] find, aske, and it shall be geuē vnto you, knocke at the doore, and it shall be opened vnto you, for he that seeketh, findeth, Mat. 7. and he that asketh, receaueth, and he that knocketh at the doore, entreth. For the Lord is nere vnto those that call vp­on him in veritye. Beside this it is earnestlye requyred of e­uery Psal. 144 man to seeke out diligentlye those that are good tea­thers, least that in steed of the shepeheard, we followe the Wolfe, trymmed lyke a shepeheard, which wil deuoure vs: for we may not through our negligence attempt God. And if we do this, hauing a sincere and true care for the glorye of God, and for our own saluation, God will not leaue vs without the conducte of his holy spirite, and without proui­sion of his goodnes, according as it shall be nedefull for the saluation of euery man, for that which Iesus Christ hath spoken, shall remayne alwayes true: to wit, that he that wil Iohn. vii do the will of God, shal vnderstand of his doctrine, whether it be of God or no.

Of suche as alvvayes excuse them by theyr great busines, and can neuer fynde conuenient tyme to hearken to the vvorde of God, and to laye their handes to his vvorke

43 T. I Am of your opinion: but there are yet an other sorte which seme to haue more reason, & are better affected toward the word of God, then are those, of whom we did e­uen now speake. But yet when I consider their workes, I can not commend them. There are that will soone graunt vs all that wherof we haue heretofore disputed: they will confesse that we must enquyre of y e wil of God in his word: They will well allowe the doctrine of those that do truelye preach the word of God, and follow the same, and employe them selues in the busines of the Lord: but yet for all y t they wil not be ouer busie in it, but wil find a thousand excuses. They will alledge an infinite number of empeachmentes and empedimentes, which let them. Tere is amonge these [Page 47] men a number of mockers, which say, we must let God a­lone with the matter, and that he will well accomplyshe his worke without vs. D. I do well vnderstand of what kinde of men thou speakest: they are of the number of those which our Lorde Iesus Christ telleth vs of in the passage of those Math. xx [...]i Luke. xiiii. conuited gestes to the mariage, of the which the one excused himselfe by his farme, the other by his oxen newly bought, and the other by his newe maryed wife: to be shorte, eue­ry one had such plentye of excuses, that not one of thē came to the mariage, of those that were bidden, but that of ne­cessitye straungers were called. And as touchyng those men which say that God will well bring his works to passe without them, they say truth, for God nedeth not any man to accomplishe any of his workes, For when he setteth vs to worke, it is not for neede as though he coulde not doe all that pleaseth him to do, without vs. But when he calleth vs into his workes, he doth it to doe vs honour, in that we ho­nour him, making vs the ministers of his grace. And ther­fore we shoulde bee the more diligent to take the matter in hand, which if we do not, he will assuredlye geue vs to vn­derstande that he hath workes to do, the which he will not do without vs: to wit, when he shall punysh vs for our sloth­fulnes and ingratitude. T. Thou sayest very well: for we must needes be there in proper person, for that worke shall not go in hand without vs. D. These mockers which so play with God, shall feele this sooner then they would. We may well ioyne also with these mē, those of whom the Pro­phet Aggeus doth complayne, who being deliuered from Agg. [...], the captiuetie of Babilon, and hauing libertie and good meanes to builde agayne the Lordes temple (the whiche in tyme before they hadde so much desyred, or at the least made it to seeme so) hadde no care at all once to laye their hands to it: but when the Prophet exhorted them to goe in hande with it, accordynge to their duetye and offyce, [Page 48] they were neuer vnfurnished of excuse, they alledged that the time was not yet come, for the which they looked. And to couer their hipocrisie the better, they would in like man­ner cloke their carelesnes, euen by the worde of God. But the Prophet Aggeus doth plainly shewe where their griefe doth holde them, saying: that to builde their owne houses, and to do their own busines, they had alwayes time conue­nient but to builde the house of God, and to lay their hands to his labour: they could neuer find any meete time. By the which he doth plainly geue them to vnderstand, that if they had, had so good affection toward the worke of the Lord, as they had toward their owne worldly busines, they woulde haue found the tyme as apte to take the matter in hand, as they founde it for other matters. T. It is to be feared that God will recompence them according to their deserte: for if they can finde no meete tyme wherein to serue him, he will finde time conuenient inough wherin to chastise them tho­rowlye for their hypocrisie and negligence. D. The Pro­phet also dyd not hyde it, but declared playnlye vnto them what profite there would ryse vnto thē by such a contempt of God, saying: you sowe much and gather litle, and if you scrape and gather money together, it is as though you should put it into a bottomelesse sacke or purse.

Of the meanes vvherby mens busines may be aduaunced or hindred.

44 T. BY this accompt, men do greatly deceaue them selues, they thinke that all the tyme which is spent in the ser­uice of God, is loste, where as they shoulde thinke all other tyme to be loste which is not imployed in the same. For if they shoulde bestow but one houre to heare the word preached, they would think that their busines wer maruelously hindred, but they wil neuer grudge to loose. iij. or. iiij. x. or. xij eyther in a bancket, playe, or suche like vanitie. And for my part, I am of opinion that if we did laye our handes to the [Page 49] labour of the Lorde as we ought to doe, one houre shoulde more profit vs, then doth now one day, one day more then a moneth, one moneth more then a yeare. But for as much as we do it not, whē we thinke to go forward, we go backe­ward: and finde our selues so encombred with busines vp­pon busines, and empeachment vpon empeachment, and e­uill happe vpon euill happe, in such sorte as we can neuer come to any ende. D. Our Lord Iesus Christ doth plainly geue vs to vnderstand the same, when he saith, after that he hath spoken of necessarye things appertayning to this life, seeke first the kingdome of God, and the righteousnes ther­of, Mat. vi and all these thinges shall be geuen vnto you. Then by the contrary it foloweth, that in seking first our selues, and not effeming God, his kingdome and worde, al that is con­trary shall be geuen vnto vs. T. We are well worthy of it.

Of mockers vvhich loue not the Gospell, and yet make the courte vnto it, and make a shevv as though they had great deuotion to it.

45 D. FOr a full resolution, it seemeth to me that these kynde of men of whom we doe nowe speake, do not farre o­therwyse differ from those men of whom we laste spake, thē the two brethren of whom our Lorde Iesus Christ speaketh in a parable, differed the one from the other. The father cō ­maunded Math. xxi. the one to goe into the vineyarde, he aunswered plainely that he would not: notwithstanding this churlishe aunswere, he dyd afterward acknowledge his fault, repen­ted him, and went thither. The like commaundement was geuen to the other, who aunswered franckly, he woulde do it, but in dede dyd it not, vpō this same Iesus Christ asked, who was the better of them both, and who did best obserue the commaundement of the father. T. I woulde thinke the first did it: for although he aunswered fiercely in wordes, he yet declared that his harte was better then his wordes dyd expresse. And contrarilye, y e other declared himself to be but [Page 50] an hipocrite, geuing his father fayre wordes, wherwith to abuse him. D. It f [...]roth in maner so with these men, they sh [...]we as thoughe they dyd better vnderstande, and had a greater zeale to the worde of God, then those whiche resiste it more openlye: and yet oftentymes they beare lesse good will to it. There is no difference but in this, that these men are greater traytors to God, and greater mockers of hys worde, in so much as they doe it more couertlye, and more craftelye. And therefore we see oftentymes come to passe in them, that which our Lorde Iesus Christ hath sayde, the firste shall be the laste, and the last the fyrst. It is often sene Math. xx. that those which in the beginning did most resiste the word of God, in the end haue beene the best and moste constant, after that God hath geuen them to know theyr faultes and ignoraunces, and hath illuminated them. And on the contrarye, manye after that they haue made a goodlye shewe and countenaunce a longe time to the Gospell, they reuolt, and being geuen into a reprobate sense, doe per­secute it, being reiected of God as mockers, whiche haue abused hys knowledge. T. That is a punyshment moste to be feared.

VVhat diligence men oughte to vse in follovving that vo­cation vvherunto God hath appoynted them, & of those Epicurians that are amonge the Christians, and of the di­uersitie of them.

46 D. THerefore, when the Lorde doth call vs, let vs make haste as did the Israelites in comming out of Egipt: and let vs not take so greate leasure that wee suffer our Exod. 12. dowe to bee leauyned, let vs rather eate our bread vnleaui­ned, then to suffer it to be longe corrupted with the leauine Mathe. 16 Mar. viii Luke. xvii. of the Egiptians, Pharisies, Saduces, and Herode. Let vs well remember that whiche Iesus Christ spake of Lothes [Page 51] wife, and that aunswere whiche he made to hym that des [...] ­red that he myghte tarye and burye his father: and to an Matth. [...]i [...] other which in lyke sorte desired that hee myghte goe and take hys leaue of hys frendes and cosins: suffer sayeth he, the dead to burye the dead, but for thy part shew thou forth the kyngdome of God. And agayne, What so euer he bee Luk. ix that hath once layde hys hande to the plow, and doth looke behynde hym, is not meete for the kyngdome of God. T. I doe greatlye feare that there are manye Epicurians a­monge those hypocrites, of whom we haue spoken. For al­though there be manye in the worlde that are taken for hy­pocrites, because they loue not God, nor shewe it so to the worlde: yet notwithstanding there are some Epicurians the one sorte more couerte then the other. There is one sorte which esteeme the whole volume of the sacred Scriptures to be but fables, and they turne it all into iestyng and scof­fing. There is an other sorte which dare not so openlye de­clare what they thinke: yet doe they not muche differ in o­pinion from those of whom we haue spokē. Ther is beside, these an other sorte whiche thinke that euerye man shall be saued in his religion, what so euer it bee, if so be that they serue God in a good intent.

Of the testimonyes by the vvhich men declare them selues to be very Epicurians, and of the prouidence and iustice of God against their false opinions.

47 D. ALl those opinions are wonderfull daungerous, and notwithstanding the same, the greatest number of Math. xxv Roma. [...]iii [...]. Cor. iiii men at this daye declare them selues by their workes, to bee of that iudgement. For if they beleued assuredly that there were a GOD, and an other lyfe, and a iudge­ment, to the which euery man shall be called to render a [...] accompte, and that there were a Paradyse and a h [...]ll: [Page 52] they would neyther speake nor liue in such sorte as they do: but would stande in more feare of God, and beare greater reuerence to his lawe and worde. For if there be a God, (which no mā can denie, vnlesse he be more barbarous then all the barbarous people that euer were in the worlde, ye [...] then barbarousnes it self, and more brute and furious thē are all sauage and brute beasts, and more deuilish then the deuill himselfe) it must nedes be that such thinges are, for the one of them can not be without the other. God can not be God without his prouidence & iustice, if he haue his pro­uidence, seinge he hath discerned men from beastes, and hath made him a partaker of his godlye nature, there is no doubt but that he hath other care of him then of beastes, Gene. ii i. Pe. i Psalm. v Iohn. 5 Roma. iii and hath created him to an other ende and to an other lyfe and felicitie, then he hath created them. If he haue iustice and goodnes in him, it is very certayne that the good plea­seth him, and the euill displeaseth him: and that he will pu­nyshe the one, and reward the other. And for so much as we do not here playnely see his iudgementes in all things, that is vnto vs a most certaine argument that there is an other lyfe, in the which God wil make knowen that which is hid­den to vs here: otherwise he shoulde not be that which he is. T. It is very certayne.

Of the lighte of Gods vvorde vvhich is geuen to men, and of the nature of the same, and of the contempte that is a­mong men.

44 D. If it be so (as in dede euery man that is of good iudge­ment doth knowe) we ought not to thinke that he hath created a Sunne wherby to lighten the eyes of mā, and to conducte him and leade him to those thinges that are neces­sarie for this life, and that he which is the very true & onely sunne, fountaine of all light, hath not prepared light for the spirituall eyes of our soule, to leade them to those thinges which are necessarye to eternall lyfe. For if he haue had so [Page 53] great care for our body, which is but earth and corruption, and for this present life, which is common with the lyfe of other creatures, what shall we thinke that he hath of the soule, for whose sake he hath made the body, and of the im­mortalitie which he hath prepared for him? And it is very true that the true lighte of the soule, is that same worde of God, by the which God doth instruct vs. Which according to the testimonye of Dauid is that onely lighte which doth lighten our eyes, and doth directe our steppes, and doth also geue wisedome to them that are ignoraunt, wherfore whē psalme. cxix we shall haue to do with men, to perswade them to rede the holy scriptures, and to heare the worde of God, and to be­holde that light which shyneth vn to vs in the same: it is no more in effecte but as we shoulde exhorte men to open their eyes, to behold & receaue the light of the sunne. Should we not thinke it very straunge if we should be enforced daylye to solicite men to this, and should he not of right be thought to be very ingrate, that had rather to holde hys eyes shutte and to be blinde stil, then to beholde this light of the sunne, and to be lightened by y e same? T. Yes truely. D. Yet not­withstanding we doe dayly much worse, when that we are prouoked to vnderstand and harken to the word of God in sundrye wyse, and yet we will not vnderstand of it at all. T. Thou sayest very true: but men do not see so farre.

Of the authoritie of holy Scriptures, and in vvhat sort God hath declared his vvill vnto men, and hovve much it agre­eth vvith his prouidence.

49 D. ANd as concerning those that doe not beleue that the holy Scriptures and worde of God, are the worde of God, they are more voyde of reason then are those y • should saye there is no sunne in the worlde: or if there bee one, that he shyneth not: or els that the lyghte by the which we are lighted, is not of the sunne, for we oughte not to doubte but Iohn. 1. that God, who is the perfect and true light, hath manifested [Page 54] himselfe vnto men, whom he hath created of purpose to haue the fruition and enioying of this diuine lyght, and to walke in the same, And if it bee so: I woulde glad­lye knowe of those whiche beare so small reuerence to the holye Scriptures, if they knowe anye other more cer­tayne meane, more meete and more excellente, by the whiche GOD hath declared himselfe vnto men: and whe­ther there bee anye other doctryne more worthye of hys maiestie, and doth contayne and reuele vnto men thinges more hye, more godlye, more secreate, more vnknow­en, and incomprehensible to all mennes vnderstandyng, more true and more certayne, and that doth touche and presse mans harte more, and hath in them greater ver­tue and effecte, bee it to humble and beate them downe, bee it to releue and comforte them, and is in all respectes more meete, more profitable, and more wholesome for man, and better approued and confyrmed by infynite testimonyes of God: and that doth better deserue to bee credited, then this, which hath bene reuealed by the Aun­gells of heauen, who daylye doe see the face of God: Al­so Mat. xviii Heb. i. by the Patriarches, Prophettes, Apostles, and the moste holye and moste vertuous personages that euer the earth dyd beare, and that of so greate an accorde and perpetuall consente, and all readye by so longe a tyme euen from the begynnyng of the worlde by continuall succession. T. Thou alledgest here great matters, & of great weighte, to approue that whiche thou haste declared.

D. Yea but I haue not yet touched the principall: to witte, that the verye Sonne of God, whiche is the true woorde, the Image, the lyghte and bryghtnesse of the Iohn. 1. Heb. i. glorye of God, hath beene sente vnto vs from the bo­some of the Father, to declare and confyrme the same the more, dwellyng amonge men in the true nature and [Page 55] shape of man. Also we haue here no small testimonye that thys doctryne is of God, in that the deuill dyd ne­uer make so longe and cruell warres agaynste any doc­tryne, what so euer it was, as hee hath agaynste thys: and in that it hath beene alwayes so miraculouslye con­serued, by the singulare prouidence and power of God, agaynste all the assaultes of the deuill: and that God hath punyshed wyth horrible plagues those that haue stoode vppe agaynste the same. As the examples of all ages doe ryghte well witnesse. What shall we also saye in that it hath beene approued and ratifyed so myghtely by so manye signes and myracles (which coulde in no wise bee done but by the onely power of God) and also by the bloude, death, and confession of so manye Martyrs and confessours, which are in number infinite? T. If euer God dyd speake, or if euer he dyd shewe himselfe to men to deliuer vnto them anye kinde of doctryne, there is none other doctryne that we maye assuredlye beleue to bee of God, but onely thys doctryne, of the which thou haste nowe spoken. And therefore we are fullye resolued, that GOD hath shewed himselfe to men, and that he hath re­uealed vnto them the doctryne of saluation. For if the kinges and princes of the earthe, yea the moste barba­rous, brute and cruell men of the earth, dyd well knowe that men coulde not lyue wythoute lawes, but were constrayned to make lawes, and to submitte them sel­ues, knowing the same to bee verye necessarye for the conseruation of mankynde, and common policie: doe wee thincke that GOD the soueraigne kynge and prince of euerye creature, who is himselfe the lawe to all, would leaue men withoute a lawe, and hys people withoute geuyng them an order howe to lyue? Hee that hath geuen a lawe to all hys other creatures, woulde hee leaue man, which is the chiefe of his workes among all the [Page 56] visible creatures, and he whom he hath appoynted prince and ruler ouer them, to be without lawe and direction. D. Who can thinke the contrarye, if he be not more beastlye then the very beastes? T. Wherfore for my part I do con­clude, that this same, whereof we haue spoken, is the true lawe and doctrine of God, and that there is none other, but that all others must be gouerned by thys onely lawe, and to reiecte all such as are not agreing with thys.

Of the moste deuely she peruersitie of the Epicurians, and hovve they doe agree vvith the doctrine of Mahomet, vvho is of opinion that all men shall bee saued in theyr ovvne lavve.

50 D. THou doest conclude very wel, but the Epicurians, of whom we speake will not so easely agree to our say­inges. For it is harde to satisfye such as do delyte to mocke God, and to make warres agaynst hym, and to perswade in matters of religion, such as desire to liue without religi­gion. And in deede such swyne are not worthye to be dispu­ted with in such a matter, for so muche as in the same they declare them selues to be more beastly then y e brute beastes, and that they denie the foundation, which the deuills them selues are compelled to confesse, for they doubte not at all but that there is one God, and one Lord Iesus Christ, whō they feare and stand in awe of. And euen as those reasons which we haue alreadye alledged, are sufficient for all such as feare God, and are tractable and not contentions: euen so are they sufficient to ouerthrowe and treade downe the errour of them that do affyrme that euery man shall be sa­ued in hys owne lawe, thys proposition shoulde be true, if Iames. ii Met. 8 Mark, v euery man dyd embrace the lawe of God, this poynte is an article of the lawe of Mahomet, because that he doth ima­gine that God hath geuen diuerse lawes vnto men, in di­uerse tymes, and in diuerse places, according to the diuersi­tie of the people and nations, wherefore he doth conclude [Page 57] that euery nation shall bee saued in obseruyng that lawe, and forme of religion that he hath receaued of God. In the which, although he do moste filthilye erre, yet notwith­standing he hath more reason then these men of whom we speake, whiche accepte for a lawe and religion, all that euer any of them doth inuent and imagine of his own braynes.

Of mans traditions and of the rule vvhich is set before vs in the holy Scriptures, of all religion and doctrine.

51 T. THey thinke also, because they haue receaued these thinges of their fathers, that the same which they fol­lowe, is the lawe and religion which God hath ordeyned. D. Yea but there are of them that doe well knowe the con­trary, and are well assured that they embrace many things which are inuented by men: wherfore if they will attribute so great worthines to the traditions of men, as to that law and doctrine which God himselfe hath geuen, and reueled by his Patriarches, Prophets and Apostles, and chiefly by Iesus Christ his onely sonne our Lord: we shal neuer haue ende of geuing lawes, nor shall we haue any thing, where­unto we may assuredly trust. There shal bee no difference betwene God and man, betwene the maister and the ser­uaunt, for euery man shall be a lawe maker. And Sathan may continually by this meanes spread abroad what doc­trine so euer shall please him, and vouch it to be the doctrine of God. And then in vayne hath God geuen hys lawe and word, by his Patriarches, Prophets and Apostles, and espe­ciallye by his owne sonne Iesus Christ. In vayne should he haue forbidden to adde anye thing to it, or to diminishe it, Exod. 20 Heb. 1. Gal iii. Acte. vii. Deut 4 1 [...] P [...]o [...]. xxx. or ells to receaue anye other doctrine, no although it were brought in dede by the Aungels of heauen. Wherefore if he will that we geue suche honour vnto that woorde, which hath ben once reuealed by the Patriarches, Prophets and Apostles, and by Iesus Christe our onely Lorde, that the [Page 58] verye doctrince of the Aungells shall bee examined by thys rule: doe we then thinke that he will geue more power to man ouer hys worde, then to Aungells. To what ende doe all the admonitions serue whiche are geuen vs, for to be­ware Deut. xiii. Mat. 7. Actes. xx. Roma. xvi. i. Iohn. iiii of false Prophets, to shonne those that ar heretiques, and to proue the spirites, whether they bee of God or no, if it were all one to followe what lawe a man woulde? and that God woulde bee contented to be serued with our good intentes, man shoulde neuer haue neded that he shoulde haue geuen hym anye lawe, but onely hys owne inten­tion, commaundyng hym to doe onely that whiche shoulde come into hys mynde, and shoulde seeme good vnto hym. Which thing he hath earnestlye forbidden, saying, ho­nour Deut. 11. not thou the Lorde in that sorte that seemeth good vnto thy selfe, but in that sorte onely whicch I doe com­maund thee, without declyning eyther to the ryghte hand, or to the lefte.

Hovv vve oughte to iudge of that, vvhere God forbyddeth vs to doe that vvhich semeth good in our ovvne opinion: and of the assuraunce of our consciences by the vvorde of God, vvithout the vvhi [...]he nothyng can please God that man can doe.

52 T. IF he will that we doe not that which we thinke to bee good, what shall we then do? That which we thinke to be euill? D. He doth not at all forbid vs to doe that which we thinke to be good, if it be good in deede, but for so muche as of our owne nature we are ignoraunce and blinde, and that oftentymes we take darkenes for lyghte, and lyghte for darkenes, the good for euill, and the eui [...]l for good, the sweete for soure, and the soure for sweete: he will not that we gouerne our selues accordyng to our owne fantasyes, but hath geuen vs an order, to the ende that we myghte [Page 59] perfectlye discerne these thynges, and not to take the one for the other: which is not possible for vs to doe of our sel­ues, without the meane that he hath geuen vs. And for that cause he sayeth, thou shalte doe onely that which I doe commaunde thee. Wherfore it doth follow that what so e­uer Deut. [...]8. man doth, can not please God, vnlesse he be assured that GOD hath commaunded and ordayned it, and can not doe it without doing great wronge and violating the com­maundement of God. For fyrst of al, none can please hym withoute fayth. And secondarilye, fayth can not be fayth, withoute an vndoubted assurance. And certayne assurance can not be, but in the word of God. For how can I be assu­red that God alloweth thys, and disaloweth that, but by the vnderstanding of hys will, which I can not haue but by the declaration thereof, which he hath by hys word? On Heb. 11 the other parte, howbeit that that which I should do, should not be contrarye to hys will, but shoulde be such as he hath expressedlye commaunded, yet coulde not my harte bee tho­rowlye agreable vnto him, but should be worthye of greate blame: if I did it without this assurance, because that I shoulde not beare to the maiestie of God, the honour and reuerence which I doe owe vnto the same. For I oughte to haue him in that reuerence, that if I doubte of the thyng, I shoulde fyrst enquyre and bee assured of it, to the ende that I shoulde not put my selfe in daunger to offend hym: that, which we shoulde more feare then death. For if I make so small accompte to put my selfe in suche hasarde, I doe de­clare by suche contempt, that I doe not so feare God as I oughte to doe, nor doe so reuerence his holy name as my duety requireth. T. If these kind of mē offēd, which do good thinges in doubte: howe greuous is then the offence of such as doe those thynges whiche he hath playnelye forbidden, and are apparantlye euill. D. I committe that to your iudgement.

Of the errour of those that thinke that the vvorkes vvhich they do contrary to the vvill of God, are yet notvvithstā ­ding agreable to him, because that they do them in a good intent.

53 T. BUt what wilte thou saye of those, that doing thynges contrarye to the wyll of God, doe assure them selues that they are agreable to God, and ordayned by hym. For there are manye of that opinion, in manner all suche as are superstitious and idolaters are of that iudgement, and almoste all the heritiques, which doe all that euer they doe in a good intente, if we shall iudge of theyr conscience. For if they thought not that their religion dyd please God, many woulde refuse it, which seeme yet to haue some feare of God. D. I aunswere to that, that GOD is not sub­iecte to our fantasyes, and that he will iudge nothyng to bee good or euill, because it pleaseth, or displeaseth vs, and because that we doe so iudge of it: but because the thyng is so of hys owne nature, and that he himselfe hath so iud­ged of it, and hath commaunded or forbidden it, or ells all superstition, and idolatrye, heresye, and wickednes: shoulde be lawful. For there is no wickednes nor abhomination so greate, whiche in the opinion of manye, is not holden for a good and an honest thyng, or at the least not euill. But howe manye heritiques, people and nations are there, which haue esteemed thynges to be good and honest, which are the moste straunge and abhominable, that maye bee thoughte or imagined? How many haue ther bene also that haue had the most vniuste lawes of the whole world, which they haue no lesse esteemed then bee the beste and moste iuste that are? T. The matter is playne. D. Moreouer, doe we thinke that GOD will endure at our handes, that whiche we oure selues will not endure at the handes of our seruauntes? Woulde we bee contented to haue a seruaunte to serue vs after hys owne will and fantasye? [Page 61] Wil we not rather be serued accordyng to ours. T. If we should not be serued as we do commaunde, we shoulde not be maisters, but seruauntes, and our seruauntes should be the maisters. D. And seynge it is so, wyll God endure, that wee shall serue hym as pleaseth vs, and not accordynge to hys wyll, and that we shall take vnto our selues suche ma­stershyp ouer hym? doost thou not manifestly see, how that all these moste damnable opinions, abolishe and deface the lawe and worde of God, and consequently God hym selfe, whiche can not be knowen for God without these thinges? For if these goodlye reasons bee true, all these absurdities, and blasphemies do folowe, and a generall abolishyng of all true Religion, and a horrible confusion of all thynges. For if thys foundation bee once layde, all difference be­twene good and euill, betwene vertue and vice is cleane wiped away. There resteth then no more, but euery man to do what lyketh him, and so to gyue the head to all his affec­tions, whiche is a more perillous matter, and much mo [...]e daungerous, then it is to let lose all the wilde beastes of the worlde, to go at their owne will amonge men, as doth a wolfe lose among shepe, in executyng his rage and cruelty agaynst them.

To vnderstand vvhether God haue ordeyned sondry Reli­ligions for men, and of the diuersitie of mens lawes, accor­dyng to the diuersitie of nations and countreis.

54 T. THere is nothyng more certayne, then that which thou sayest, but could not God haue gyuen to men sondry orders of lyfe, accordyng to the condition of euery people & nation? For we see by experience that there are lawes and customes in one countrey, whiche are very mete for it, and yet for an other countrey, are neither meete nor agreable. For what diuersitie of lawes, customes and maner of lyfe do we see among men, and chiefly in the administration of Iustice, and in their pollicie? whiche seeme in dede, to be ve­ry [Page 62] contrary the one to the other, & yet notwithstandyng are both iust and rightous in their kinde, and very necessary to those vnto whom they be gyuen, wherof it foloweth, that a law beyng good and iuste in one countrey, and not in an o­ther, that the fault procedeth not of the law, but of the diuer­sitie that is among men, and of the circūstaunces of times, of places, and of personnes. And without alledgyng mens lawes, whiche do greatly differ, the one from the other: Let vs come onely to the law of God, and let vs see if we finde not the lyke in them in some respects. How many commaū ­dementes did God gyue vnto the Iewes, vnto whiche he would not haue the other people to be subiect, which wer be­fore the comming of Christ: nor yet vs which haue receiued the word of God by their ministery? For how many things are there abolished by the new Testament, whiche were ve­ry straytly cōmaunded and obserued in the old Testament, and could not be omitted, without greatly offendyng God, and without great punishement, of those vnto whome they were commaunded?

Of the causes of the diuersitie of the positiue lavves, and of the difference, that is betvvene those lavves, vvhiche are gyuen as touchyng corporall thinges, and those whiche do appertayne to spirituall thinges.

55 D. THere are many reasons, to aunswere this question & difficultie. For the firste, it is no meruell if there be great diuersitie, yea and often tymes manifeste contrarie­tie, and imperfection in mās law. For the men which make them, are changeable and inconstaunt. And for so much as oftentymes they may fayle, either through ignoraunce, or els by being ruled by theyr affections, it is often tymes sene that theyr latter lawes do correct theyr first. T. But often tymes it is sene contrary, and that the latter ar worse then the first, and that they do abolishe others, whiche are better then they are. D. So much the woorse is it, but there may [Page 63] no such thing be found in god. And beside that we may not iudge of spirituall and heauenly thinges, as we do of corporall and earthly things. For we dayly see by experiēce, that there are many lawes in the policie, whiche if they were ac­cepted generally in all countreys, were as vnmete & would as greatly hurte in some, as they do profite in others. And for this cause, God would not make subiect y e other nations, nor yet the Christiās vnto al those lawes, which he did giue to the people of Israell, but hath left it to al mens choise, cō ­ditionally that this libertie be alwayes measured by the cō ­passe of his will, and eternall and vnchangeable law, wher­of we will here after speake. For these lawes haue regarde to our body and goodes, and to the cōseruation of the socie­tie of man, in the which it can not be, but that there most be great diuersitie, bycause they are made of diuerse qualities, and are subiect to diuerse chaunges, wherfore it is required that the law gyuer haue respect to the habilitie, commoditie or incommoditie, of those people with whome he hath to do, & to y e tymes and places wherein he doth establish them. But it is farre otherwise with the soule, & with those things that properly appertayne vnto the same. For it is not com­pounded of such a substaunce, as is the body. And therfore is not subiect to such chaunges and diuersities, & the things that belonge vnto her, are not for a tyme, but are eternall. And therfore, it must nedes be, that those lawes whiche are gyuen vnto the soule, must haue a further regarde, in that they must nedes be of a longer continuaunce.

Of the agreement that is betvvene the positiue lawes, & the ceremonial lavves, and of the true vsage of them.

56, T. BUt God hath not onely kepte thys order, in his ciuile lawes, but also in those that he hath geuē for matters of Religion, whiche touche the soule. And beside that, those same Ciuile lawes, whiche he gaue, were they not geuen to helpe towarde the obseruation, of those whiche properly had [Page 64] regard to the soule. D. I denie not that which thou sayest, but thou oughtest to consider, that this chaunge of lawes & ordinaūces, the whiche God hath vsed, euen in the very matter of Religion, doth not otherwise appertayne, but to the ceremonies, whiche are but outwarde thinges, and not at all, of the proper substaunce of the vnchaungeable wyll of God. And therefore the ceremoniall lawes haue a greate a­greement, with the positiue lawes: for as the ciuil lawes are gyuen for conseruation of the ciuill policie, and to helpe al­so to leade men to yelde that obedience vnto God, whiche they owe vnto him: euen in lyke sort the ceremonial lawes do serue to entertayne the Ecclesiastique policie, & to frame men to the true seruice of God. But for that the meanes by the whiche this may be done, may be diuerse, and that some of them may be mete for some tyme, in certayne places and for certayne people, whiche shoulde not be mete for others: God hath therfore left it at libertie, prouided that the rule which I touched before, be therin alway obserued. For these thynges are in this respecte as thynges indifferent, and the chaunge that in them happeneth, doth not procede of God, ne yet of any inconstancie y • is in his will, but of our weak­nes and inconstancie, sauyng onely that God of hys good­nes, doth willingly condiscend to our rudenesse and capaci­tie. But there is an other reason in his wil which he hath de­clared to be eternall, and in the thinges that he hath once de clared to be for euer good or euill, and that depende of the same, and are not onely as entries as are the ceremonies, for in such matters he neuer changed any thing, nor neuer made law, by the whiche he allowed Idolatrie, blasphemie, adultery, murder, & other lyke wickednesse, whiche he hath once forbidden by his law, whiche is nothyng els, but a te­stimonie of his eternall will, and of the naturall law, which is naturally imprinted in the hartes of men, by the whiche he hath put in them an impression of his eternal will, which can neuer be cleane plucked out. But for so much as it was [Page 65] meruelously darckened by sinne, and that it did remaine as ouerwhelmed and buried, and in maner in vs cleane wipte out, it hath pleased God more playnly, to declare the same vnto vs, & to awake vs, to the end we should gyue the grea­ter regarde vnto it, and hath gyuen it vnto vs, as well by writting as by word of mouth, and doth put vs oftentimes in mynde therof by the ministerie of his worde.

VVhat libertie God hath gyuē, in the vsage of ceremonies, and of the meane that must be kept in the same.

57 T. IT shall then accordyng to thy opiniō, be lawful for mē, to dispense with ceremonies, and with ciuile lawes and to chaunge them at their pleasures. D. My purpose tendeth not to such an ende. For when I do declare for what cause God hath left in this, greater libertie vnto men then in the rest, wherof we haue spokē, I wil not therfore say, although it be lawfull for God to chaūge all those thyngs at his plea­sure, according as he doth know it, to be mete for the health of man, that man should chalenge to him self such a licēce: but contrarily when they haue receiued any ordinaunce of God, be it ceremonies or such lyke, they ought not at all to chaunge any thyng therof, vntill that God him selfe, which onely hath libertie so to do, do it: as we see it hath come to passe by the ceremonies, which were obserued in the Church of Israell, whiche were abolished by the commynge of our Lord Iesus Christ, for that they were not ordained, to serue but onely vntil that time. Besides this, in that, in the which God hath gyuen no certaine, and expressed ordinaunce, but hath left those things in our libertie, as indifferent, we may vse that libertie, whiche he hath left vnto vs, gouernyng the same alwayes according to the rule of faith and of charitie, If ther be then any questiō, as touching the ceremonies or­deined in the law of Moses, we must then haue regard vnto that parte of them, whiche was abolished by the commyng of Iesus Christ, whiche may not now be obserued, without [Page 66] renouncyng of Iesus Christe: as thoughe men douted whe­ther he had accomplished or no that whiche was figured by them. Yf there be any question of Sacramentes, ordayned by our Lord Iesus Christe, and of the ceremonies, and of the discipline, whiche he hym selfe hath ordeyned: we muste then take good hede that we chaunge no iote thereof, or to adde, or diminishe in any thing, that toucheth the substaūce of such thynges. If there be question of mans traditions, and of the auncient Canons & Decrees, it is requisite to cō sider, wherin and how they do agree, with the word of God, & also how they may serue, to the edification of the Church, or how they may hinder the same. For there are many (I say euen of those, whiche are not contrarie to the worde of God) whiche were good for a tyme, which not onely would not serue at this present, but woulde do greate hurte, by­cause the tyme doth not nowe require that, whiche it then dyd when they were decreed. And therefore, if that of the verye Apostles, touchynge the abstinence from bloud and from strangled fleshe, whiche was decreed in the Counsell at Ierusalem, was abolished in tyme conuenient, when the vsage thereof was no more necessarie in the Churche: howe muche more reason haue wee, to doe the lyke of o­thers, that are of suche qualitie, when that the tyme and the edification of the Churche shoulde require it? T. I agree well to all thys: But there is beside these an other sorte of people, of whome wee haue not yet spoken, whiche seeme to haue more reason then the others of whome wee haue nowe made mention: but it maye bee, that wee haue spoken ynoughe for one tyme, it shall be beste that wee leaue them vntill an other tyme. For I doe not doubte, but wee shall haue occasion to discourse suffi­cientlye of them. D. Who are they I beseche thee? T. They bee those that wayte for a Councell. D. And bycause that we haue happened vppon thys matter of the Councel, I am wel content that we put it ouer to an other tyme: for it doth [Page 67] well merite that men looke narowly vnto it, for so muche as many men depende vpon them.

The contentes of the second Dia­logue named the waitinge for the Councell, or the Nevvtrall Gospellers, to vvit, suche as vvill deale betvvene the true & false Religion & doctrine.

1 BYcause, that the lookynge for a generall Councell, to appease the troubles y t are in Christendome in causes of Religion, doth feede and entertayne many poore igno­raunt men in vayne hope, and doth let thē from the diligent searchynge out of those thinges, that belong to their saluation, I haue determined fully to entreate of the matter in Dialogues folowing, in whiche I will playnely declare, what hope the Christians may haue of a Coūcel, and what they may thinck wil come of it, and how hard it wilbe to assemble it, and what issue, or what good, or euil we ought to looke for of it, and what profite the lawfull Councelles maye bryng to Christian­tie, and whiche is the true Councell, vpon the which y e true Christians ought to repose and to instructe theyr conscien­ces. And in handling of these matters, I wil touch chiefly in this Dialogue, what hope wee maye haue in such affaires, as wel of their part, that are called Prelates of the Church, as of the parte of the Christian princes, as they haue gyuen vs well and sufficiently to know by examples, and by expe­rience that we haue had already of the Councell of Trent. And after that there is some thing sayd of the Interim, and of such soliciters & worckers as will ioyne Iesus Christ, & Antichriste together, & in stede of Christiās, make Samari­tās, & of the opinion of such as say, y t the Coūcel cā not erre, which is also continued in y e other Dialogues folowing, in y e which I do a little paint & set forth, y e maner of proceding, [Page 68] whiche the Papistes obserue in their Councels, and I do cō pare it with that, whiche God did vse in his Councel that he helde with his people, first in the moūt of Synay, and after that in the hill of Sion. I do shew also what preparatiō ther ought to be for the doctrine of such Councels, and how that those two Councels, conteine all the doctrine of the old and new Testament, & how they do so agree together, that they both tend to one, vpon whō onely it behoueth vs all to stay. Wherupon also I make mention of the agrement and difference that may be betwene the old and newe Testamēt, be­twene Moses and Iesus Christ, betwene the law & the Gos­spell, and the law which is called the lawe of grace, and the law of rigour, & of the abolishing & also of the vsage of y e law of Moses, and of the vengeance of God, which is prepared a­gaynst those that will not willingly receyue the Decrees, & Canons, of this great and godly Councel, and shall abuse his worde, and of the great grace: whiche he hath offered to men, in his sonne Iesus Christ our Lord, which things shal be entreated of euery one in his place. And as touching this present Dialogue, I haue intituled it, the waitynge for the Coūcell, or the newtrals, in respect of the principall matters that therin are handled or entreated of.

❧ The second Dialogue, intituled the waiting for the Councell, or the Newtralles.

Of the reasōs vvhich cause many to desire & vvait for a Councel: and of the trouble that the difference vvhich is in Chri­stendome in matters of Religion, doth bryng to simple and ignoraunt consciences.

  • Daniel.
  • Timothe.

1 D. THou doost well remēber where we left, as tou­chyng those that wayt for a Councell. T. Yea in dede. D. Will these men tary to beleue in God, to serue him, and to enquire of his will, vntill the tyme [Page 69] that the Councell hath ben holden, and that it hath determi­ned what order of lyfe we should folowe? T. It semeth that these mē take their foundation, of that which thou hast said, that if they should serue God truly, it were first requisite to be well instructed and assured of his will. D. Wherfore do they not then forthwith and withall diligence enquire ther­of? why do they then tary for a Councell? T. Bycause they say, that in so great diuersitie of opinions, as at this present day, is in Christendome, in matters of Religion, they know not whiche to folow in surety. For they see that some teache after one sort, & the others after an other: & that ther is often tymes as great contrarietie of opinions, as betwene white and blacke, and betwene fire and water. That whiche one aloweth, an other disaloweth: that whiche one holdeth for Christiā doctrine, and for true seruice of God, an other con­dempneth it as heresie, or els as superstition, hypocrisie, Idolatrie, and Apostasie. And besides this, ther are of both sides personnages of great apparance, great vnderstanding and great authoritie, accordyng to the iudgement of the worlde: notwithstandyng the multitude is farre greater of the one side, then of the other: men heare their discourses, men read their writtinges & bookes, there are goodly reasons of both partes, which euery of them endeuoureth to proue and con­firme by the holy Scriptures, and by all meanes possible. In this cause, what shal a poore man do, whiche feareth to offend God, and hath a good desire to serue him, accordyng to his wil, but he may not wel attain to y e knowlege therof, bicause that which the one saieth is the wil of God, the other sayth it is not the will of God.

Hovve that the difference that is in Christendome, in mat­ters of Religion, should not stay men from the diligent en­quirie of the vvyl of GOD, but shoulde rather prouoke them thereunto.

2 T. I Confesse that these differences, which are in Christen­dome, engender great trouble in the poore consciences [Page 70] of many: but that ought not at all to let them to enquire by all meanes possible, of the will of God, and to employe thē selues with al spede possible to serue him: but they should the more earnestly be moued, and prouoked to do it, to ridde them selues, with as much speede, as they myght out of suche troubles. For why, least they tary in it, if they haue any feare of God, in what trouble shall they lyue: and what quyetnes maye they euer haue in theyr consciences. I for my parte shoulde thincke that I were in hell, if I shoulde longe lyue in suche estate, without hauynge some thynge certayne, and resolued in my mynde, whereunto I myght assuredlye staye. T. For thys they require a Councell: for they thincke there wil bee there men of greater iudge­ment then they are, by whose meanes the matter shall be so debated and examined, that there shall bee a generall, and a sure determination, throughe the which euery man may be out of scrupule and doubte, and may know wherunto to trust. D. It semeth vnto me, that their hope is very slender, if they haue no better hope then this. I maye not deny but their desire is good, we all ought to desire the same, if there were any hope to se it come to passe, & that with spede: for y e soner it were, y t better, bycause it is much more daūgerous to delay or defer the medicyning of y e soule: thē of the body, for if the medicine of y e body come not in tyme to hym y t is sicke, y t sicke person is not in daūger, but onely of his bodely life: but if the medicine of y • soule be to long deferred, ther is daūger of eternall death: wherfore, I do greatly feare, that manye doo perish, in tarying for those medicines. T. There is much to be feared, and also to be doubted in this matter.

VVhat profite the Churche of God may receaue of Coun­celles, and of theyr issue.

3 D. THe Sinodes & lawfull Coūcels, is one of y e best remedies y t mē may haue, to take away cōtrouersies in re­ligiō, [Page 71] it is y e remedi wherunto in like cases y t Apostles & their true successors, & al y t aūciēt church, haue oftētimes had their recourse: for albeit that the Coūcels, haue no authority nor power to giue vnto y e churche any newe doctrine nor yet to forge ani new articles of faith, but only to hold & maintain y • doctrine, which is reueled by y e holy Scriptures, & yet not­withstāding they serue to great purpose, in so much y t they be as publike witnesses vnto it, to succor y e infirmitie of the simple & weake, & also such as shall come after vs, by y e con­fessiō which is made of y e same by thē, & by the publike testificatiō y • there is declared, by y e perpetual cōsent of y e Church, of y e doctrine of the Prophetes & Apostles. But although the Councels be ordeyned to this end, & that y e aūciēts haue had more rule of thē selues & better meanes, much more meete for such a purpose, then we haue at this presēt: yet notwith­stāding they could neuer obtaine y t in their Coūcels, which they desired. And such vntowardnes was there, y t they did alway not onely not apease y e differences, & abolish scismes, & heresies which troubled y e Church, but oftētimes euē there right many new did spring, & haue ben afterward frō tyme to tyme encreased: if it were nedefull to proue it by exāples, it were easy to do, but we will not now enter into such matter. I will cōtent me for this time, to alledge onely touching this matter, y t testimonie y e Gregory Nazianzen (which was Master to S. Hierom) did giue, writting to Procopius of y e Coūcels of his tyme, whiche were nothyng so corrupted as ar those of our time: if I must nedes, sayth he, write y e truth, I haue determined to refuse al the Coūcels of Bishops. For I haue foūd the issue of no one Synode good, or rather that they haue more encreased the euil, then quenched it. Here is the iudgemēt of Nazianzene, touching this matter. Which semeth to me somethynge harde, for it can not bee denyed that some of the auncient Councels, haue greatly profited vnto Christianitie, notwithstandynge that the peruersitie of the wicked, hath alwaye hindered that the frute and issue [Page 72] hath not ben such as was to be desired, yet notwithstan­dyng, Nazianzene hath not gyuen iudgement of the Councels without some iuste cause, or lyke a man that dyd not knowe what the matter meant, but like a man of great vn­derstandyng, and one well exercised in those matters. T. At the least he lyued in such a tyme, and bare such office as of reason he ought to haue had great experience.

Of the hope that men may haue of the Councell, in these dayes, and of those that there shal assemble, and of the issue thereof.

4 D. NOw if Councels had such issue in those dayes, that Nazianzene had iust occasion to make such com­plainte: what hope may wee haue in these dayes, of suche lyke remedie? For, first of all, what hope may we haue to as­semble a Coūcel onely? yea and if it might so come to passe, that one might be assembled, what goodnes might we hope for of it? For whoe shall assemble it? who bee they that shalbe there assembled? Who shall there preside? Who shall make the determinacions and conclusions of it? and who shall execute them? Yf a man would reforme or suppresse a stewes, to whom wouldest thou gyue such a charge? Woul­dest thou gyue it to the master of the stewes? and wouldest thou, that he should haue the chief auctoritie in that reformation, and that his bawdes and ruffiēs, whoremasters and whores should gyue their voyce and sentence, and that all should be done, accordyng to their will and minde? Might not mē haue great hope, to haue some good resolucion and reformation in such a case, of such a Councell? T. It should be a greate mockerie, euen lyke as to make the wolfe to be keper of the shepe. D. Doubtles no more is there any like­lyhode, considering the state of thinges at this day in Chri­stendome, to haue any Councel much more honorable. For if the Pope and his ministers, haue their auctoritie, whiche they haue had in time past, euen sith they haue vsurped that tyranny, whiche they now exercise ouer the Church, & that [Page 73] they pretend to haue there, thou mayest easelye vnderstand what successe men may looke for. For it is a thing most cer­tayne, that suche men wil neuer agree to haue a councell holden, vnlesse they know it to be for their profitte, and that they may there rule at their pleasure, euē as they now pre­tēd to do in their Coūcel of Trent. For if they did not think to reigne & rule there at their pleasure, it would haue beene a hard matter euer to agree thē therevpon, or to haue draw­en them thither. And if they may obtayne this, it shall not be a Councel, but a coniuratiō & conspiracie against God, as was the councel of Annas and Cayphas, of the Scribes and Pharisies, and of the priests of y e lawe, and of the coun­cell of Ierusalem against our Lord Iesus Christ. This shal be a Councel to establishe more stronglye the seate of Anti­christ, and his tyrannie agaynst the Church, and wholy to abolishe the course of the Gospel, and to fill the whole earth with the bloude of the innocentes & Martyrs, which shall susteine the truth, and rather die, then to renounce Iesus Christ. T. Certaynly for my part I thinke it to be the one­ly mark wherat they shoote. For what may we looke for at the handes of him, & of all his race, which hath bene a mur­therer and homicide from the beginning of the worlde, we nede not to doubte whether the Antichrist the sonne of per­dition and all his generation which make warres againste the truth, be the very naturall and lawful children of thys great murtherer & father of lies. Wherefore it must needes come to passe: that they worke the workes of their father, and that they put in practise those artes and sciences: which they haue learned in his schole.

Of the meanes that the enemyes of the truth doe vse for the maintenaunce of their kingdome, and their false re­ligion, and of the hope which they haue geuen by their Councel of Trent for the reformation of the Christi­an church.

D. AT the least they do declare right well by their threat­ninges howe well they are inclined to followe that 5 occupation. For in dede what coulde they do without that? in so muche as the sworde of the worde of GOD is not to maintayne their cause and deuelyshe estate, they can not finde one more meete then is the materiall sworde, and the fire and fagots. There is the Bible which they haue for their defence, with the which the tyrantes and executioners furnyshe them. T. Their librarie is euen meete for their studie. D. By these meanes y e Christianitie shall be in worse estate then now it is, and there shall bee lesse hope of refor­mation of it, thē before was. And without passing any fur­ther, and without going from their councell of Trent, they haue already geuen vs a fayre testimonye of the good will that they beare to a true Christian reformation: by those goodlye determinations which haue beene concluded not long since, in their sessions of that worthy coniuration and conspiracie of Trent. T. The matter is plaine, and therfore doest thou no wrong to such a councel rather to cal it a con­spiracie to resiste the truth, then a councell to maintaine it.

Of the daunger into the vvhich they put them selues that attend onely vpon the councell, without seeking any other reformation, both in them selues and in the church.

6 D. ON the contrary, if they should know y t their tirannie mighte haue no place, then woulde they finde all the meanes possible to inuent how to let it, y t there should bée no councell at all holden: or if there muste nedes be one, to hin­der in all matters all the good that might otherwise procede. And in this sort, what shall become of thē this meane while that depend onely vpon the councell without hauing anye other care of religion, or of the reformatiō of the same? And if they had none other care at all, they should die in their ig­noraunce, and doubt where in they are: and so should go to holde a councel in hell, where I doubt not but y t they should [Page 75] finde Popes inough to procede ther, & Cardinals, Bishops, Priestes and Monkes, to hold there a goodly generall coun­cell, better furnished of such personages, then any that a mā might now finde in Christendome, if they holde it in suche sort as they haue alreadye begonne, & that such personages do there rule, if these men which attend for a councell be al­readie in errour: they shall there be more confirmed therin, and shalbe in worse state then before. If they haue receaued any light of the word of God, it is greatly to be feared least it should be clerely put out in them, being blinded with the apparence of the authoritie which men geue to councells.

Of the hope that men may haue of those Christian princes vvhich do reigne at this present for to reforme the church by the meane of a generall councell: and of the negligence and vvante that is in that behalfe, euen in those churches vvhich glory of the Gospell.

7 T. YEt is there hope to remedie these thinges by the helpe of the Christian princes. D. I see no greate hope in that behalfe. For who be the Christian princes that maye geue order in this? if they be seduced by the Pope and hys, that Antichrist will be serued of them for to make him con­tinuallye more stronge: if they be well instructed in the doc­trine of the Lord, and that they haue a desire to reforme the church according to the rule of his worde, that Antichrist forthwith endeuoureth to sturre vp al those princes and na­tions y t are abused by him to hinder so godlye an enterprise. And when one prince wil, an other will not. Wherefore, it will be a very long time before mē may cause all y e princes and other estates of y e world, by whose meanes such assem­blies ought to be made: to agrée in one opinion, and to come together and to consente in one so holye a worke. For we shall finde in all these estates those same difficulties, lettes and excuses, whereof we haue already spoken. For there is [Page 76] so great contempte of God and of hys worde, and so greate negligence and carelesnes in all estates, concernyng those things that touch the honour of God, & the health of soules, and so great a burden of their owne glory, and priuate pro­fitte, and their hartes so rooted in the earth, that they forget heauen, and can finde at no tyme any leasure to labour in the worke of the Lordes house. T. That is a verye great euill. D. We may easely iudge what hope we shall haue of a generall reformation, by meanes of a generall councell, by the experience of those thinges which we daylye see, in those places where God hath alreadye geuen of hys grace to princes & Magistrates: to laye their hands to his works: to beginne some maner of reformation in his church. Let vs beginne with y e best reformed church that may be found in christendome, and let vs compare the forme and order of it with that that was in the auncient church: I meane not of the most perfect that euer was, as of that of the Apostles, but of that church that was longe after the Apostles tyme, what difference shall we finde? T. I thinke we shall finde very great difference. D. So great as we shall be ashamed to call a reformation, the reformation that we shall therein find, seing y e deformitie that ther yet doth rest: wherof euery man complayneth, and yet no man can remedie it.

Of the negligence and vvante that is in the ministers of the church, and generally in all other estates, wherby the refor­mation of the church is hindred.

8 T. WHat is the cause thereof? D. Euery man in his cal­ling, for oftentimes it is seene that the Ministers are negligent in their ministerye, and doe not call vpon the magistrates and people, exhorting them to execute their of­fices vprightly and sincerely, as they ought to doe: for often tymes it is seene that they them selues do as much or more feare a reformation, then others do. And if there be defaulte and negligence in those men, which shoulde be a lyght vnto [Page 77] others, let vs then well wey what may be found in the ma­gistrates and people. For there are very few which on their part feare not a reformation, and desire not at all to frame it according to the rule of the worde of God, to directe theyr liues and maners according to y e same: but rather to make the worde of God subiecte to them, and to haue a reformati­on according to their own will & pleasure. And frō whence commeth al this: but onely from an euill conscience and of a disordinate desire that is in men, of a carnall libertie, and of a manifest rebelliō against God? For they will not haue God to reigne ouer them, but they will liue and reigne at their pleasure. They can not endure to haue their naughtie affections, and dissolute maners to be bridled, and the abuse of their estates corrected, and their tyrannye suppressed by the worde of God. They besturre them on euery side by all meanes possible, and employe all their forces to caste of: the yoke of the Lord, to the end they wil not be subiecte to him: and consider not in the meane time that in refusing to yeld vnto God that obedience whiche they owe vnto hym: they rest subiectes to the deuil, and become daily more and more his slaues: for they had rather to reigne by the deuil, and the deuill to reigne in them, thē to liue and reigne by God, and God to reigne in them and ouer them. Wherefore we may well say of them altogether, that which S. Paule did of the ministers of his tyme, at which time the worde of God dyd geue fruite in other sort then now it doth. Euery one sayeth Phill. 1 he is about his own busines and careth but for himself, and not for Iesus Christ. It cōmeth somtime to passe that there are good ministers, and that on their part do acquite some pece of their duetie in thys behalfe: but those which are ioy­ned in the same ministerie with them, & shoulde helpe them, and drawe with them in the same yoke that they drawe: are oft tymes those that hinder them more then any others. T. When this happeneth the hindraunce is not small, for one onely horse that draweth backewarde, doth hinder more [Page 78] then sixe horses which draw forward are able to ouercome.

Of the empeachmentes that men geue one to an other in the reformation of the church: and of the punyshment of God vpon them for the same cause.

9 D. IF it so come to passe that the Ministers agree wel, and do wel acquite them of their duetie, peraduenture they shall not finde the Magistrates and officers of that same sorte, which will put to their handes, to helpe them in theyr ministerye, as their office requireth: but will rather bande against them, to ouerthrowe all good discipline, and will rather maintayne vicious men, then vertuous. Or ells if it come so to passe that the Magistrates and officers bee well affected towarde the reformation of the Church, they may meete with ministers which shall not greatlye hasten them forward, but will rather disswade them from it: where they ought to perswade them to it, and will rather geue them li­bertie to runne a straye, then to put them in the right path. Or if it so come to passe that y e Ministers and Magistrates with the officers bee all of one mind, as concernyng holye things, and do helpe one an other in the workes of the Lord (which thing is very seldome sene) yet shall they haue much to do to range y e people vnder any good discipline. For ther are fewe which are tractable, and will willinglye submitte them selues vnto it, and if there bee some of so good a sorte, there shall be some Minister or some Magistrate that shall seke to altar him and be offended with him. Wherfore seing that there are so fewe Ministers, Magistrates and people, that are willing to submitte them selues to the true refor­mation of God, and woulde yelde vnto hym that obedience which of right they owe him, but they would euery of them rather haue such a reformation as shoulde please their fan­tasie, which should not displease thē at all, but entertain thē in their pleasures: And therfore it is no maruell if all frame not well, & that men be so euill matched oftentimes in all [Page 79] gouernmentes, and y t one be a hindraunce to the other. And it is not greatly to be maruelled at, if the ministers doe sel­dome finde good Magistrates and good people, yelding to the ministerie of the worde of God such obedience and due­tye as they ought to doe. Moreouer, it is not to bee maruel­led at if the Magistrates finde very seldome true and faith­full Ministers of Iesus Christ, diligente in theyr ministerie towardes the church of God, who withoute flatterye will francklye shewe both them and the people theyr faultes which are subiecte to them as they oughte to doe, and doe loue and reuerence them as their fathers. And doe we mar­uell if the people haue more often Pastours and Magi­strates tyrauntes, which doe deuoure them and destroye them: then good Ministers and Magistrates which woulde be vnto them in stead of fathers, and desire more the ho­nour of God, and the saluation of hys people, thē their own glorye and profitte? For it muste needes come to passe that the offring must be like to the Saint (as saith the prouerbe) and that God do punyshe men in suche sorte, the one by the other, to the ende that they maye learne to knowe in them selues by the iniurye which others doe to them, and by that which they commaunde of them, what iniurye they doe to God, and how he maye be pleased by them. If then it be an hard matter to set good order in the church, when either the Ministers, Magistrates or people be other, then of right they ought to be, what discipline may we then hope for whē they shall be all in leage together to resiste against God, and to make warres agaynst his worde, and to destroye all good discipline? T. That doth yet more often happen then the contrarye.

Of the difficultie that is in the vvorlde at this day, to assem­ble meete men for a lavvfull councell, and of the example of the auncient Christians concerning their fath tovvards the doctrine of the Apostles.

D. THē if it be so difficulte, as nothing is more to set good order in a small countrey or little towne, by meanes 10 of these empeachmentes, yea euen in those places where there is moste light of God, and moste hope of reformation, what will it then bee when it shall come in question for all Christendome, and for all the worlde? how harde a matter will it be to assemble so manye peces so euill gathered toge­ther, and the one so contrary to the other? If those which re­ceaued the Gospell in the tyme of the Apostles, seing the di­uersities that then were in the religion, and the resistance that was made against the doctrine of the Apostles, woulde haue beene contented to abstayne from receauing of it: vn­till such tyme as a generall councell had bene called, where had they then bene become?

When should they haue beleued y e Gospell? For who should haue assembled & ordayned it? Shoulde the Romaine Em­perours haue done it: which wer enemies and persecutours of the Christian religion, which then were the most mightie princes vpon the earth? Or ells Pilate and Herode, Annas and Cayphas or ells the Scribes and Pharisies, the Doc­tors and the Priestes of the Iewe, or ells the Philosophers and the Prophets of the Paganes, which were all aduersa­ryes to the Gospel? what conclusion might men haue loked for at the hands of such men? How should the Apostles and their adherentes haue bene receaued among those mē? and of what weight or value should their voice haue bene? How longe shoulde men haue wayted before that all these men would haue agreed together, vpon any good determination for the doctrine of true religion? That would not haue bene done before the day of iudgement.

Of the hindraunce vvhich the Christians doe cause in the reformation of the church, more then all others, and of the ende vvhereunto the suppostes of the popishe church tend vnder the title and name of a Councell.

T. THe world is not in these dayes, as then it was. For we haue now nothing a do, neither with the Iewes, 11 nor Paganes, nor yet with the Turckes. And seyng that wee haue to doe but Christians with Christians, the hope is the greater. D. I know not. But at the least I desire it for my part, but I feare least the pure truth of God, will worse be endured of those, which glorie of the name of a Christiā, then of the Iewes and Turckes. For all those that beare the name of Christians, are not for all that Christians, for for so much as it is an other matter, to be a Christian in name onely, and to be one in dede, and name together. This fareth muche like the testimonies whiche we haue already brought sorth of auncient customes, touchyng the aunciēt Samaritanes, of whome it is writen that they feared the ii. Reg. xvii Lord, and yet notwithstandyng, they serued continually their Idolles: and afterward in this same passage he sayth, that they did not feare the Lord. T. I was in mynde to de­sire thee to agree these two passages, when thou diddest al­ledge them, but that I was loth to breake of your tale. D. It is an easye matter to agree them, for the one expoundeth and declareth the other. It is sayd that they feared God, for so much as they made a certayne profession of the law: but for so much as they dyd it not in dede, but mingled theyr auncient superstitions and Idolatries with it, it is sayde that they feared not the Lorde, as it is declared folowyng. But let vs come to the Samaritanes of our tyme, for truly we doe not see at all, more cruell persecutours of the Gos­pell, then are those whiche are Popishe Christians. But to what ende thinckest thou, that the Councell of Trent is continued, and that they haue newlye confirmed, and ap­proued all those determinations, and resolutions that haue passed? In the same? Thou mayest well assure thy selfe that those worthy fathers, whiche trauaile there, tend to none o­ther ende, but to confirme and establishe agayne, all theyr aunciēt errors, to the end they may haue a more better cou­lour [Page 82] to defende and maintayne them here after, and to per­secute the children of God, and to bathe all Christendom, in the bloud of poore Innocentes, and true seruaunts of God do they not apparantly shewe, that they will not admitte any reformation, whiche is comformable in any one pointe to Gods truth, and that they haue no care, neither of peace ne yet of the vnion of Christendome, but onely how to maintaine their most filthy & damnable estate, and to oppresse by their tyrannie all true Christianitie, and vtterly to destroy it? For, if they were desirous to hear & vnderstand y e truth, & to bring into the rightway, those which they hold for heretikes, & Scismatikes, why do they not there admit thē, and franckly & safely receiue them, & to heare their reasons, & to shewe thē by the word of God (if their cause haue good foū ­dation in the same) their errors, wherin they say y t they are? But they passe not for that: for they wil not heare their iud­ges, nor endure that the word of God shal iudge thē: know­yng well that by it they are already condempned, but will be iudges ouer it, and condēpne it as their aduersary. Tru­ly their doings must nedes be good, their conclusions good, & their condemnatiōs lawfull: In so much as they are both iudges, parties, & witnesses, euen as their predecessors were against Iesus Christ: & they haue their hangemē, & executio­ners ready at hād, to execute their sētences. What differēce is there, betwene such a Coūcell, & a conspiracie of theeues, whiche sweare together to take in hand, some enterprise to cut mens throtes? What authoritie ought such a Coūcell to be of? What prophets are there, & what doctors, what Chri­stiā princes, how may then al christēdō lawfully receiue for resoluciō & determinatiō of y e christiā doctrine, & for a true reformatiō of y e church, y e cōclusiō y • shal be had in such a cōspi­racie of y e enemies of God, & of al Christianitie? There is no man of sound iudgement, that will agree to this: for it is in a maner such a cōspiracie, as was y t which Salomon discri­beth of those which said: Let vs lay ambushes to shed blud, [Page 83] and let vs lye in waite for y t innocent without cause. It is a cōspiracie like vnto y t of the false Priests, & false Prophets, Prou. i Iere. xviii. enemies of Ieremie, which sayd: let vs go, let vs woūde and smite with the toung, for the Sacrificers shall neuer want wisedom. It is much like to y • which the Papistes say: The Coūcels cā not erre. And if it be lawfull to cōstrayne mē by force, y t feare God, & w c great strokes of swordes, by warres, murders, & sheding of bloud, & with great store of fagotes, & mighty fiers, as these worthy fathers do: I leaue to thy iud­gemēt, what edificatiō, what peace & vnion such a Coūcell may bryng to the church of Iesus Christ, & to al christēdom.

VVhat Councell the true Christians ought to folovve, in wayting for the generall Councell.

12 T. WHat shall we then do, if this hope be taken from vs? D. Though we haue no occasiō at al to cōceiue any good hope of the Coūcell of Trēt, yet will I not therfore say that al hope is taken frō vs foreuer: but I will onely say that we liuing in this hope should be occasioned to stay without any further inquiring of the wil of God, & without the assuring of our consciences in his worde. And whē such matter hath bene in question, I haue alwayes bene thus resolued in my selfe: Either there shalbe a Coūcel holdē, or els there shalbe none holdē. Ff ther non holdē I am thē deceiued in my wai­tyng for it: if there shalbe one holdē, I know not whether I shall liue vnto y t time or no, or at y e least to see y e end, & conclusiō therof. And in y e mean time if I dye, not being wel resol­ued in my cōscience of religion: I shall dye in great disquet­nes of conscience, and in great perill of my saluation, as thou mayest wel vnderstand by those matters, whiche haue already ben debated sufficiently, and at large, betwene vs. Wherefore I had rather in the meane tyme, to assure my selfe, folowyng the admonition of our Lord Iesus Christ, whiche sayth: Be vpon your garde, watche and praye, and Mat. 24. 25. Luke. 12. do like that good seruaunt that is alwayes ready, & looketh for hys master, not knowyng what houre he shal come. We [Page 84] are well assured that he shall come, but we neither knowe the day, ne yet the houre. Wherefore let vs lyue alwaye in such estate, as becommeth Christians to be, when he shall come, and then shall we neuer be sodenly taken.

Of those vvhiche vvould agree the doctrine of Iesus Christ, and that of Antichrist together, and of the forme of doc­trine, compounded to such an ende, called Interum, and of the vanitie of the authors of the same.

13 T. IN dede it is the most sure, but in the meane tyme it is a harde matter, to finde any kynde of Religion, wherein a man may so well continue in wayting for the generall Councell, as that whiche men call at this day the Interim D. Thou hast now put vs into a very large fielde. I would gladly that these foregers of Interim, should declare vnto me the very cause why, they do call thys newe forme of Re­ligion, whiche they haue forged, by the name of Interim T. Thou doest well vnderstand y • Interim, signifieth in the Latin toung, in the meane tyme, or whilest. D. I do know that very wel: yet notwithstanding I would gladly know what they meane by this worde, in the meane time, or why­lest. T. They meane as I thinke, y • that maner of lyfe hath ben set forth onely to that end, that men should lyue accor­ding to the same, in matter of Religion: whilest they away [...] for a Councell, in the which more ample and more certaine determination in matter of Religion, or els an other refor­mation, more perfect shalbe had. D. Is not that a very wise Councell? I would desire no more, but the title of this wor­thy maner of reformation, to declare the great vanitie of the authors of the same. For either it is builded vpon y e word of God: or els it is agaynste it. If it bee agreable to Gods worde, there nedeth not, eyther whylest, or vntill, for it shal­be alwayes good and holy, Yf it be agaynst it, and if it en­dure but one hour, it shal cōtinew ouer long, for so much as what so euer thynge it be, that is agaynste God, the same ought to haue no place, neither for shorte, nor longe tyme. [Page 85] For it fareth not with gods kingdom as it doth with worldly kingdomes, neither with Gods lawes ouer the whiche we haue no power, as it doth with mans lawes. For when a king is dead, there is a certayne time betwene the decease of the dead kyng, and the creation of y e new kyng, which is called enter raigne, whiche is a tyme betwene both, whiche is properly called neither raigne nor kingdome, for so much as there is, as yet no kyng chosen as head of the same, and mē can not say, that there is vtterly no raigne or kingdom, for so much as the lawes, and countrey stande in their full power and effecte, sauyng onely that they haue not, as yet their kyng appointed & chosen. And the like is when a cheife Magistrate dyeth in a Seigmorie. Nowe this can haue no place in the kyngdome of God: for the king thereof neuer dyeth. Wherfore as he is eternal, so are his lawes eternal, and the order of lyfe, whiche he hath gyuen to his subiectes. T. For so much as it is so, there needeth then nother other raygne nor other lawe, nor yet Interim, as these men woulde haue.

For vvhat cause and reason, the doctrine of the Interim, can not be re [...]eiued neither into the Churche of Christ, ne yet into the Popes Churche.

14 D. THerefore let vs leaue of this Interim, whiche doth so much confounde it selfe, as euer did any thyng: for it is made by such vnderstādyng and iudgement, that no mā may by reason approue it: for so much as in euery respect, it is but a very Papistrie, somewhat disguised, published, and couered with a maske, being finally different from the first. And therfore no mā may folowe the doctrine therof, vnlesse that he renounce the doctrine of Iesus Christe, and make a new aliance with that of Antechrist. T. Yea and it was not framed, but to the end it myght by litle & litle, plucke backe from the Gospell, suche as had already professed it, and to bryng thē wholly in the end to Papistrie agayn. D. In dede [Page 86] it is accepted of none but of such mē, for y e papistes wil none of it, & that not without cause: for if they should receyue it, they should condempne themselues, for so much as the Inte­rim doth permit things which they do vtterly condempne. Wherfore as sone as they shal haue receiued & allowed it, their traditiōs are cleane gone: for they haue embraced this foūdation to build their kingdō vpō, that their Church can not erre: because it is alway gouerned by y e holy gost. Wherfore if it should once by thē be admitted which they haue cō ­dēned: behold al their doctrine scattred & spilled, & cōsequēt­ly their kingdō ouerthrowē. Afterward it wyl fare with thē as it doth w c a piece of work made of wollen threde without any seame: which being once brokē in any place, & that there be one threde plucked out of it, al y e rest follow after in order easily. For, if y t they once do that, thē must they nedes cōfesse y e either their Churche hath not bene gouerned by the holye Ghost, or els that they haue an holy Ghoste that maye erre. Wherfore, to auoide this inconueniencie, they wyll leaue no kinde of thyng which they haue inuēted: they wyll neuer acknowledge their faultes what or howe many soeuer they be: notwithstāding y t they know thē apparantly, & that they be enforced to condēpn them in their own cōscience, & y t they be so foule, y t the very beastes may iudge of them. T. I haue often times meruailed at y t which thou now sayest: but now I do well see what it is that letteth them.

Of such Christians as be Nevvters and indifferent, vvhiche folovv the doctrine of the Interim: and of the mixture of the true & false doctrine, & hovv much it displeaseth god.

15 D. FOr so much as it is so, we haue no iuste occasion to dwel at al vpon these Interimists, ne yet vpon their Interim, which is a name whervnto mē may ioyn whatsoe­uer they will. It is a beast that hath a verye stronge and a [Page 87] mighty back, which wyl beare what soeuer men wil lay on him. It is a name made of an aduerbe, whiche doth very wel agree with the Grāmer, of those Gramarianes, whiche haue forged it. For euen as their Grāmer. (I meane theyr diuinitie) is straunge and different from all other doctrines, and especially frō y e true diuinitie of the sacred Scriptures, euen so hys language is very newe, and straunge, and hathe hys rules vtterly different. The Greeke and Latine Gramer, haue the Masculine, Feminine, and Newtre Gen­der, the Hebrewe hath but the twoo firste, and wanteth the Newter. And contrarilye the Interim, hathe neither Mascu­line nor Feminine, for he is neither Masle nor Femasle: but is Newtre, or at the leaste compounded of Masle and Fe­masle: and so muste needes by common, and must nedes be Masle and Femasle, both together, or els he can be neyther the one, ne yet the other. T. Then shal he bee a Monster. D. Yea in deede verye monstrous, and so contrary to the woorde of God, as nothynge more: for hys Grammer is lyke to the Hebrewe Grammer. It aloweth no Newter Deut. [...]. Gender, and hardlye doth it any common. It doth not per­mitte to couple the Oxe, and the Asse together in the plowe, no more doth it permit to sowe a fielde, with sondry kindes of grayne, ne yet to make a cloth, of sondry stuffes and sub­staunces. It condemneth also the confusion of seede, of na­ture in beasts, and other lyuyng creatures, & holdeth those beastes for vncleane, that are engendred by beastes of son­dry kindes, as are Muletes, and Mules, and such other like, In the whiche it is playne, that the Lorde hath had a fur­ther regarde then to those thynges, when he gaue suche laws: & that he would admonish his people by those same, to obserue good order in al thyngs, & to eschewe & auoide all confusion and disorder. Then if the mixture and confusion of sondrye thynges doo displease hym, it muste needes then displease him more, when that the greater parte is the worste, as it is in the Interim. For there is very litle pure [Page 88] doctrine in it: and that whiche is, is so darckned and corrup­ted, that nothyng is more. Wherefore this common kynde, by whiche he wil be as a meane betwene the doctrine of Ie­sus Christ, and y • of Antichrist, doth right wel be seeme hym. For common in the Scripture, is as much to say as pollu­ted and defiled, as witnesseth Saint Marcke in his. 7. chap. and Saint Peter in the Actes of the Apostles the. 10. chapi. And in our language, a common woman, is a whore. This Interim in like maner, maketh vs common Christians, and Newters, like vnto the Samaritanes. For euen as the Sa­maritanes were properly neither Iewes, ne Paganes, but were made of them both: euen so are these men properly neither Euangelique Christians, ne yet Papistes, but a cer­tayne confusion, and mingle mangle of both together. T. Albeit that y e doctrine of this Interim, be not in all respectes so pure and perfect, as we would haue it, is it not yet better to haue it so, then to haue it more corrupted, and to be such as is the doctrine of the Papistes. D. In dede in one thinge it is to be preferred, before the Popish doctrine, wherof thou speakest: which is that the poison that therin is, is more hid­den. Wherfore it is the more daungerous, and the more to be feared and reiected. T. It is very true.

For vvhat cause the Interim hath taken his name of an ad­uerbe, and hovve in sondry vvise he may be applied.

16 D. WE may iudge of al those doctrines & Religions, which are so confounded and mingled, as of the lawe & Re­ligion of Mahomet: for is it any thynge better then that, of the Iewes and Paganes, for that it hath many thinges, ta­ken out of the Christian Religion, mixed with that, that it hath of the Iewes and Paganes? And more ouer, it cōmeth very aptely to passe, y t these forgers of Interim, haue made him a name of an aduerbe: for as an aduerbe is a woorde ioyned to a verbe, euen so the doctrine of the Interim, is an adiunction to the worde of God, not to opē and declare it, as [Page 89] the aduerbe doth the Verbe, but to darken and corrupte it. T. It is then lyke to the glose of Orleance, which marreth the text. D. It is a very daungerous glose, and seing then it is an aduerbe, and that it signifieth, in the meane time, or whilest, or vntill, if they will interprete that woorde in the meane time euen as thou hast sayd, we maye also take him in this signification: In the meane tyme we die and shall be in daunger of going to hell: In the meane tyme Antichrist shall reigne, and the Gospell shall bee persecuted: In the meane tyme they shall seeke all the meanes possible to sup­presse and banyshe the worde of God, and more strongly to establyshe the siege of Antichrist. And to be shorte, put to it all that euer thou wilte, and al the euill that may happen in the worlde, in the meane time, whilest, or vntyll, will re­ceaue it all.

VVhat profitte they vvhich haue beene instructed in the vvorde of God, may receaue by the Councells: and vvhat vertue and authoritie they haue to bring men to the fayth.

17 T. I Agree well with that that thou haste sayd: but if there be a Councell holden, and if it serue nothing at all for such as shall dye looking for it, yet notwithstanding it shall profitte such as may liue vnto it. D. And yet shalt thou not finde there, by that meane, all that y • thou thinkest to fynde: for if one be holden, either it wil conclude for Iesus Christ, or against Iesus Christ. If they doe conclude for Iesus Christ, and I haue bene well instructed in the word of God before hand, it shall not hurte me at all that I was instruc­ted before hand. It hindreth not the cōmoditie that I maye receaue of the Councell, but doth encrease it the more: for I shall be so much the more glad, whē I shall see that doctrine approued wherin I haue alreadye bene resolued, and haue beleued it, not onely because it is approued by the Councel, and by men, but for that it is the pure worde of God, and that it alloweth it selfe, and that the holy Ghost beareth me [Page 90] witnesse: If I haue not alreadie beene instructed nor resol­ued, either I wil credite the determination which shal haue bene made by the Councell, or ells I wil not credite it. For it is not a thinge that of necessitie muste betyde that euery man must beleue the determination of the Councels, as soone as they haue concluded: although the Councell were lawfull. For it is not in the power of men which shall hold it, to make all that please them to beleue it. It is a worke that is onely proper to God, which geueth fayth. And to seke to make men beleue of force, that may not be: for fayth may not be inforced. Wherfore if I make it seme that I do beleue it, and do not beleue it, I shall then be an hypocrite: if I do beleue it, it is greatly to be feared least that I do be­leue onely vpon the credite of others, being moued by the authoritie of mē, rather thē by y e true perswasiō of y e word and of the spirite of God. And so, my fayth shall be builded vpon men, and vpon their opinions, & not vpon God and his worde. It shall be then no fayth, but onely an opini­on readie, to chaunge as men shall chaunge. T. It shall be as firme as shall the foundation whereupon it shall bee builded.

Hovv vve maye not bee the disciples of men, but of Iesus Christ: & hovv that the vvord of god taketh not his authoritie of the church, but the church taketh hys of the vvorde of God.

18 D. NOwe our Lorde Iesus Christ willeth that we be his Disciples, and not y e disciples of men, & that we haue none other maister but he, for it is onely he that is gone Math. xxiii forth from the bosome of the father, and that hath fullye re­ueled vnto vs the fathers will, and all that he hath heard of him: as witnesseth Saint Iohn, It is very he that hath ge­uen vs the whole summe of the articles of our Christian fayth, Iohn. ii. and of that doctrine we muste needes holde, vnto the which, it is not lawfull for anye man to adde, ne yet Deut. 11. [Page 91] to take awaye anye thinge from it. It is onely he that hath broughte vs the truth, and that doctrine whiche of it selfe is naturallye certaine and immutable, and of hys own nature can be none other, whether men do alowe it or disalowe it. It is the truth and that onely doctrine, vpō the which, the Church may surely dwel, which she may not, vpō the natural wit of mā, how excellent so euer it be, ne yet vpō vsage and custom, how auncient so euer it be. It is a truthe & a doctrine not certayn and worthy to be receiued because the Church & men do alow it: but for that it is so of his own nature, & can be none other. The Church doth approue it & receiueth it, and may neither reproue it, ne yet reiect it, if it be y e true Church of Iesus Christ. In like maner the Syna­goge of Satan may nether approue ne yet receiue it in any wyse. For euen as the Synagoge of Satan cā not acknowledge it, but accōpteth it alway for a straunger, for that she Iohn. 8. is the wyfe & daughter of the deuil, which is y e father of lies, & the enemy of al truth: euen so by the contrary, it is impos­sible that the true Church of Iesus Christ should not alway acknowledge it, euen as y e daughter doth know her mother: for that she is the daughter of God, which is y e truth it selfe, the daughter I say, begotten of the incorruptible sede of his worde, and the wife of Iesus, which is the way, the truth, & i. Pet. [...] Ephe. v Iohn. xvi. Iohn. x lyfe, and he by whom this truth of God is manifested and declared vnto vs. It is that sheepe that heareth the voyce of his shepeheard & followeth it, & not the voyce of the straun­ger. Thē y e word of God receaueth not y t authoritie y t it hath of the church, but the church receaueth her authoritie of it. In so much as shew is signed and marked with the seale ther­of. For she is to be compared to a peece of paper, or parch­ment, & to the waxe, which geue not authoritie to y e writing & seales y t are written and imprinted in them, but do receiue their authoritie of them, & are made authentike by their au­thoritie, & by the authoritie of y e prince vnto whom the seale appertayneth, & for that he hath allowed it by his authoritie. [Page 92] Wherefore that doctrine, which of hys nature is true and Christian, can not be made false nor heresie by the authori­tie neyther of the Church, ne yet of any creature what so e­uer he be: and that which of her nature is false and heresye, can not by anye meanes bee made true and Christian, no more then God may be the deuill, or the deuill God. Which thinges the questionarie Doctors them selues are foreced to confesse, namely the Doctor Gabriell. In senten. lib. dist. 25

Hovv the vvord of God doth allovve and authorise it self.

19 T. DEclare vnto me I besech thee somewhat more plain­ly that which thou haste alreadye spoken. D. Euen so as I iudge not the sunne to be bryght, because that other men iudge it so, and that I haue heard so saye, but for that he is so of his nature, and declareth himselfe such an one by his light: and in fine, because I can not say the contrary, no in dede although I woulde: euen in lyke sorte, I beleue not in the worde of God, ne yet holde it for certayne, and true, and for the inchaungeable will of God, by the authoritie of any man what so euer he bee, but because that God, who lightneth the eyes, and geueth vnderstanding to litle ones, Psalm, xix hath illumined me by the light of the same, & hath constray­ned me to acknowledge it such as it is, and to beleue it: and I may not otherwyse do, if I be of the children of God, and led and gouerned by his spirite. For, if I be of the children of God, God hath geuen me eyes by the meanes of his holy spirite, to see this lighte. And albeit that I can not see it if God do not geue me eyes to behold it, and that he do not o­pen them: yet notwithstanding hauing receaued this same of God, it can in no wise be shewed, but y t I muste acknow­ledge and receaue it. I can not heare the voyce of God my father, ne yet of Iesus Christ my shepeherd, but that I must vnderstande it and follow it, if I be of the children of God, Iohn. 8. 10 and of the sheepe of Christ. For he that is of God (as Ie­sus Christe sayeth) he heareth the worde of God, and the [Page 93] sheepe heare and vnderstande and knowe the voyce of their shepeheard.

VVhat goodnes men maye receaue by a good Councell, and vvhat euill may happen vnto them by an euill Coun­cell, accordinglye as they haue bene instructed in the Chri­stian religion.

20 T. I Graunt that all that which thou haste sayd bee true: yet because that God will be serued by the ministerie of men, to make his voyce to be heard in his Church, thou canst not denie but that the Councell may doe much good, if it be of God, to shewe forth the light of the truth to many which knowe it not, nor as yet can see it. D. I denie not that: but this onely do I saye, that if we may haue meanes to be illumined before that tyme, we oughte not to haue a pleasure in tarying in our blindnesse vntill that time, but ought by all meanes to trauaile to receaue lighte with all speede possible, considering that God doth geue vs so many other meanes whereby to receaue it, and y • for those causes which haue bene before alledged. T. I do not greatly denie that. D. And on the contrary, if it so come to passe that the Councell decree any thing against the doctrine of our Lord Iesus Christ (as it hath oftentimes come to passe in times passed, and as it is plaine that it shall come to passe in the Councell of Trent, if the ende do aunswere his beginning) if thou hast not bene alreadye well instructed, but hast bene nourished in superstition and idolatrye, and being in that estate, doest trust in men, thou art sure that y e Councel shall serue thee for no purpose, but onely to confirm thee more stronglye in thine errours, and continuallye to seduce thee more and more. And for so much as the seduction being ar­med with the apparaunce of the Councell, shall haue more authoritie, so much shall it be the more daungerous, and shall take the deper roote in thy hart. But if thou hast beene once well instructed and well resolued, thou shalt be thē out [Page 94] of this daunger, for that fayth that is founded on Iesus Christ, and on his woorde, is so firme and stronge, that in Math, xvi. deede all the infernall powers are able to doe nothyng a­gainst it.

In vvhat thing, and hovve farre the good Councells maye bridle the audacitie of the vvicked, & geue quietnes to men

12 T. ALthough there be greate apparence in that that thou sayest, yet notwithstanding it semeth to me that thou hast not wel satisfied min two points wherin a mā might replie: For if the Councel conclude in y t fauour of the truth, it shall be greatlye to purpose for the faythfull, to represse & to holde with closed mouthes, the rebells, the wilfull ones, the heretikes, and the Schismatiks. And as touching the o­ther poynt which thou doest prepone concerning the incon­uenience that may happen of an euill Councell: What an­swere wouldest thou make to those which doe affirme y t the Councell can not erre? D. I wil first answere to thy first poynt, & then after y t we wil come to the second. If the Coū ­cell do refrayne & make the enemies of y e truth to hold their peace, yet for all that it can not chaunge their euill hartes, but y t they wil secretly perseuer in their errours, awayting som more mete occasion. They wil do as the Arians & the other heretiks did, who for a time did hold their peace, fering to be punished: but immediatly as sone as they might finde any fauor, they dyd prepared again their horns, & did more hurt thē before. And think not you at al y t the papists would do lesse in these our daies, if the Councel were lawfull, and y t their errours were there condemned, euē as they do right well deserue: and thou mayest well assure thy selfe y t if they were the stronger partie, they would sée whether partie had the best swordes, before they woulde agree. And then if they sawe that they coulde not preuayle, they woulde reserue them selues vnto a better oportunitie, vntill that tyme that they might mete with some Emperours, Kinges, & princes, [Page 95] that they myght seduce, by whom they myght be maintay­ned, and to finde the meane to holde some other Councell fit for their purpose, to deface and abolishe all that euer should haue bene decreed agaynst them in the other. For it would be to greate a griefe to my Lords the Prelates and to the pyllers of the church, and to their cosins and frendes, and to all those that liue by the hyre of fornications and adul­tryes of the greate whoore of Babilon, whiche are made droncken with the venemous wynes of her fornications (made of the tree, not of the Lordes vine, but of Sodome and Gomorre) to leaue their fatte kytchin, and to renounce their stalle fedde bellyes (which is the God the which they would maintayne by their Councells) to put them selues in order to serue and obeye the liuing God, and Iesus Christ his sonne our Lord. And without seking proofe further of, to shewe by the same what hope men maye haue of their o­bey saunce towardes the determinations of a good & Chri­stian Councell, there needeth no more but to beholde howe they doe endeuour them selues at thys present, and hereto­fore haue done, to obserue the statutes and ordinaunces of the auncient Councels, of the which they do so much glori­fy: yea euen of very those which wholy haue bene made for their purpose. For there is no one thing which is concluded in thē according to the word of God, but that they thē selues do first transgresse it, and doe obserue not so much as one point therof: vnlesse it be such as are cleane contrary to the word of God. For euen as they make lawes at their plea­sure, so may they dispense with them at their pleasure: for so muche as they are Gods vppon earth. And therefore doe feare neyther GOD nor man what so euer he bee, but doe permitte to them selues all that whiche their earthlye God, and Sathan the God and prince of this worlde doth permitte vnto them, now if it be hard to amend and frame 2. Cori, 3. Ioh. 1 [...]. 14. y t wicked by y t meane of a good Councell, it shal thē be more [Page 96] harde to shutte vp close y t mouthes (by the meanes of a wic­ked Councell) for the children of God, who can not be ouer­come euen by very death, but in dying do ouercome: I doe saye it shall be no lesse difficile to abolyshe and wype oute truth, which is the daughter of the inuincible and immor­tall God.

VVhat fruite the Church maye receaue of lavvfull Coun­cells, and vvhat mixture there is in her of good and bad, and vvhat is her office tovvarde the one and the other.

22 T. I Do willingly consent & agree to all that thou sayest: but how so euer it be, the auncient Councells haue not yet bene without fruite, for at the least they haue geuen some repose to the church for a certayne tyme, and haue ar­med the faythfull against the heretiques: as we doe see in Lib. 7. cont. Donat. Lib. 1. cont. Donat. Saint Augustine, for he doth arme himself against the Do­natistes with the vnion of the holy vniuersall church, and of the authoritie of the full Councell, as with a buckler: think­ing that the full and lawfull Councell is the consent of the whole church. I do not denye but what so euer Councell is holden, there may yet continue still in the church many hi­pocrites, which will sceme to agree with it, and yet for all that in the meane tyme they will nourishe their poyson in their hartes. But the church leaueth such to the iudgement Matth. xiii. of God. For euen as our Lorde Iesus Christ doth playnlye shewe it in his parables, she can not be without hypocrites so long as she shall continue vpō this earth: vpon the which she can not be so pure, but that she shall alwayes be myxed with good & euill. But it is inough for the church to teach simplye and plainly that, which euery man is bound to be­leue, and then the true children of the church do beleue sim­plye and constantly that which their mother teacheth them and that vnfaynedly, and obey her without any gayne say­ing. The hipocrites which are not her lawfull children, but misbegotten and bastardes, maye well through their false [Page 97] shewe deceiue and abuse men, but not God: they may de­ceiue the espouse, but not the bridegrome, wherfore she hol­deth her well contented, when she hath done that, which she is able to do, to wit to teache the true doctrine, to correcte by discipline such as be faultie, to the ende that she may bryng them into the right way, and that she may entertaine them, euery one in his place and vocation: or els if they be so per­uerse, wicked and incorrigible, that they will not chaunge theyr oppinions, and if they can do no good, with such kind of men, yet will they endeuour them selues, at the least so well to prouide for others, that they shall not be able to hurt them, nor to trouble their peace, and vnion, & in the mean time she leaueth the iudgemēt of y e hart to god, and it is suf­ficient for her to entertaine her shepe and lambes in peace, and to let the wolfes, that they scatter not the flocke.

VVhat prayse is due to good princes & Magistrates, which employ them selues in the reformation of the Church, and vvhat fruite it getteth by their labor and office, as vvell for the cause of the faithfull, as of the hypocrites: and of the chaunges that happen in Religion, accordyng to the prin­ces that raygne.

23 T. I Say not the contrarie, or otherwise, when the Churche is troubled and scattered, we should reiect the meanes, whiche God hath gyuen to repayre it: whiche we may not do w tout tēpting of God. Wherfore I do very wel alow the goodwil and diligence of such as trauail faithfully in y e pro­curing of a lawful Councel, or Synodes, such as are requi­site in the Churche of God: and I Iudge those princes wor­thy of great prayse, which accordyng to the example of Eze­chias, ii. Reg. xviii 22. 23 2. Chr. 29. 34. Ezech. iii. and Iosias, do endeuour them selues to reforme those Churches, that ar within their liberties and countreys. For allbeit that many dwell still in their olde skins, yet do they their duety, for their part. They glorifie in their offices, they do assure & entertayne the good in peace. They are a means to make strong those that are weake, and do discharge their [Page 98] soules from the bloud of such as perishe throughe their own default, and not in that, that they haue not done their duety. And therfore I deny not but that of lawful Councels, there commeth often tymes great profite, for a certaine tyme, for the pollice and outward peace of the Church: but I say that they ar not sufficient thorowly to appease the troubles y t are in Christendome, and to edifie perfectly the inwarde man, & to quiet the conscience in deede, and to gyue it true quietnes and assuraunce, if nothyng els. They are vnto the wicked as the authoritie of the sword and of the Magistrate, & may wel stay their hands & feet, but they cā not alter nor chaūge Prou. 10 their heartes, whiche onely God hath in his hād, euen as the diuision of waters, and enclineth them to what part he wil. We haue the example hereof very playne in Ezechias, and Iosias, of whom we haue already spokē: whilest these good kynges lyued all errors, abuses, Idolatries, and superstiti­ons were abolished outwardly, and put away from among the people of God, and the Churche was well reformed: but it was not clearely plucked out of the harts of them all, but was secretly nourished, vnto that tyme, that occasion was offred to declare them selues, as experience doth witnesse. For as soone as they had chaūged their kyng, and that they had a prince which was an Idolatrer, the people forthwith chaūged with the prince, and retourned immediatly to their firste Idolatrie, as it came to passe vnder Manasses, Ioa­chim, and Zedechias. And in maner the like happned in the tyme of the heretikes, for they did alwayes either loose or [...]. Re. xxiiii increase their stoutnes, accordyngly as they founde theyr princes. T. The auncient histories of the Churche do yelde cleare and perfect witnesse of that whiche thou sayest.

Of the hypocrisie of those that depende onely vpon men, in matter of Religion, and of the proofe therof.

24 D. NOw from whence do these sodaine alterations and chaunges procede? but that the one sort are enforced [Page 99] through fear to leaue of, & to set a good face on it: as a horse doth whylest a man hath hym shorte rayned in hys brydle, whiche after beyng put into the fieldes, as soone as he is at libertie, or els as a riuer whiche is letted or holden backe by force of rampares, whiche floeth forth violently, as soone, as they are broken. The other sorte do chaunge as the prynce doth, bycause they dwel vpon the authoritie and doinges of men, and not vpon the onely worde of God. And therfore I say, that euen as the Councels, do make the one sorte hypo­crites, so make they the other, disciples of men, rather then of Iesus Christ. For, to receiue a doctrine, and to beleue it, for the authoritie and apparence of men, whiche do alow it, that is not properly to beleue the worde of God, although it be nothyng els but the very pure Gospell: but it is to beleue and wholly to put trust in men. For if those men, whiche by their authoritie haue moued me to receiue it, should happen to forsake it: I should be no lesse prest and ready to refuse & to shake it of with them, then I was to receyue it and to a­low it be their meanes. We do at this present see very plainly the experience hereof in those Churches, whiche here to fore haue bene reformed by the preachyug of the Gospell, whiche at thys present haue receyued the Interim, and the Masse. For y t Interim is a very perfect tokē or proofe for mē to know in dede, who they be that haue vnfaynedly beleued God, and his worde, and whiche they be, that haue dwelled vpon men, and their authoritie, and haue receiued the Gos­pell, either through hypocrisie and dissmulation for the loue of men, and the hope of their owne gayne and fleshly liber­tie, or els by perfect fayth and true simplicitie of harte, and by y t very persuasiō of the spirit of God in their conscience, for the health of their soules, & to serue to the glory of God. Those men that do chaunge in such sorte their fayth, with euery wynde that bloweth, do playnly declare that they ne­uer vnderstood Iesus Christ very well, when he sayd: Be Mat. xxiii not ye called masters vpon earth, for ye haue a master in [Page 100] heauen, to wit Iesus Christ.

In vvhat sorte vve may esteme men for masters and tea­chers, and in vvhat maner vve are made the disciples of Ie­sus Christ, or of men.

25 T. DOth he therby forbid vs, to haue masters to teach vs, and to call those masters of whom we receiue instru­ction? D. How should he forbid it, consideryng it is he hym selfe, that doth teache vs by them that are nothyng els, but the ministers of his grace, by whom he, whiche is our chiefe master, doth declare him selfe to vs: wherfore should he els haue sent his Prophets, Apostles, and disciples, to teach and preache his holy Gospell vnto vs? would he not y t we should heare those that he sendeth vnto vs, as if it were hym self in proper person, that speaketh to vs, and doth teach vs? Wherfore sayd he then to his Apostles, he that receiueth you recei­ueth me, and he that refuseth and despiseth you, refuseth & Math. x. despiseth me? and after immediatly he sheweth the reason: For it is not you that speake, but the spirite of your heauenly father that speaketh in you. T. What is there to be vn­derstode by these? how may we both haue, and not haue, masters vpon the earth. D. Yf by hearynge those that he sen­deth vnto vs, we receiue the doctrine whiche they preach vn­to vs, and beleue the same, not for their sake that speake vnto vs, ne yet for their great authoritie and apparēce, neither for the opinion that we haue of them, either to please them, or els to receiue some worldly honor or profit at their hāds: but onely bycause it is the pure and true word of God, and y t we heare y t voyce of Iesus Christ our shepheard, throughe their mouth: beyng certayne and assured by his holy spirite, that it is he that speaketh in them: we are not then the disci­ples of men, but of Christ. And then is that same fulfilled in vs, whiche our Lorde Iesus Christe alledgeth of the Pro­phete Esaye, and that whiche hee him selfe expoundeth in the Gospell of S. Iohn: And thy sonnes shalbe all taught Esay. iiii [...] Iohn. 6 of God. Then who soeuer hath heard, and lerned of the fa­ther, [Page 101] commeth to me. For when we beleue, hauyng bene so taught by God, it is for his sake, that we do receyue the doc­trine, Psal. lxxx [...] and we take him for our master, and not the men: all beit that he doth communicate his name vnto thē, bycause that they are his seruauntes and ministers: as the name of God is gyuen vnto Iudges, Prophetes, and to the electe of God, bycause that the Image of his maiestie & iustice doth shyne and is presente in them, although they be continually men, and not Gods. And on the contrary: Yf I beleue the doctrine whiche I heare, bycause that Tertullian or Cypri­an. Origene or Chrisostome, Irene or Ambrose, Hierome or Augustine, Gregory or Isidore, Luther or Erasme, Ec­cius or Melancthon, Gratian or Peter Lombard, master of the sentences, Iohn the Scotte or Thomas of Alquine, do preache and teach the same vnto me: or els bycause that the Popes, and Cardinals, the Bishops, and others, whom I esteme riche, mighty and wise personages, of great vertue and holynes, do alowe and cōmend the same, or els bycause that the Emperors, kynges, princes, and Lordes, the Itali­ans and Spaniardes, the Almaignes the Frēche, and other nations do beleue it: I am then no disciple of Iesus Christ in this doyng, but a disciple of men.

Of the nature and vertue of true fayth, and vvhat difference there is betvvene it and opinion.

26 T. ACcordyng to this accompte there are mo disciples of men, then of Iesus Christe. For there are very fewe whiche haue not greater regarde to men, then to any thing els. D. Yet notwithstandyng if it be so, their fayth to say truth is no faith, but opinion, as it hath ben already decla­red. For seyng that it is not buylded vpon the authoritie of God, and his worde, but onely vpon the oppinion whiche I haue of such personages, it may be no fayth. For fayth may haue none other regard, obiect, subiect, nor foundation, but God in Iesus Christ, & his only truth. Yf it haue any other [Page 102] foundation, if it be builded vpon men, and vpon the opinion that men shall haue of them, it shal chaunge as men do, and as the opinion doth that men haue conceiued. It shall fall when they fall, it shall be inconstant, variable and subiect to chaunge, euen as they are. For she shal not be builded vpon Math. xxii i. Pet. ii Ephes. ii i. Cor. iii Math. xvi the liuely stone, whiche is Iesus Christ, and vpon the sure foundacion of the Prophets and Apostles, vpon the which, the true Church must be builded, if it will endure agaynst the gates of hel, and the whole hellish power, otherwise how may it be a faith? For these vices are as contrarie to fayth, as is the fire to the water. Wherfore, such as dwel vpon mē in this sorte, and do not discerne of thynges, nor proue the spirites whether they be of God or no, according to the Coū cell gyuen by Saint Iohn: What assurance may they haue Iohn. iiii in their consciences? Whylest they are at rest, and that they be not assayled by temptacions, nor wakened by the iudge­ment of God, and that they do haunt among such as are of the same religion, that they are of, it semeth vnto them, that their faith is very sure & strong: but when they shal find thē selues assailed with diuers temptacions, & compassed roūde with great daūgers, & that God shal a litle astoone their cō ­sciences with his iudgemēt, they shall then finde what stay they haue of mē, & that there is no perfit assuraūce, nor true quietnes of cōscience, but in the true faith, engendred in the hartes of mē, by the very persuasion of the word & spirite of God. And if it should happē y t they should be cōuersāt amōg men of an other Religion, what would they then do? T. Yf they should be in Turckie, they would as well receyue the lawes of Mahomet, & refuse the Christian Religion, as the Turckes do: for they haue euen the same reasons and argumentes to do it, as otherwise they haue to accepte or refuse that, whiche they haue already receiued or disalowed. They would euē do the lyke, if that they were among the Iewes, or any other nation, whiche should hold any other religion, then the Christian. D. It is not to be doubted.

Of the honor that is devve, to good and true teachers in the Churche, and of the meane that vve ought to kepe, to the ende that vve do gyue neither to much, ne yet to little cre­dite to men: & hovv perillous a thing it is, to trust to much to a mans ovvne iudgemente.

27 T. IF the matter be as thou sayest, to what purpose do the good doctors serue, which haue receiued so many excel­lent giftes of God, for the edifying of his Churche? D. I say not these thynges to despise or condempne them: for we should be to much vnkynde towarde them, if we should condempne or despise them, considerynge they haue taken so greate payne to make the holy Scriptures more playne and easie vnto vs, and that by their laboure wee haue had greate commoditie. They haue sweat, to delyuer vs from a greate deale of payne and trauayle, and haue greatlye holpen vs with their labour, and made the way more plaine for vs. Also we should be to outragious against God, if that we should despise them, blasphemyng the giftes of hys holy spirite whiche he hath bestowed among them. Wherefore, thincke not that I do alow the iudgement of certaine rashe men, or fauoure a nomber of puffed prowde spirites, who without any regarde condempne all men, esteemyng none but them selues. Bycause they haue knowē that the worlde hath bene seduced by gyuyng to much credite to the iudge­mentes of men, and haue bene to lyght of credite, not en­quiryng of the truth, by the witnes of the holy Scriptures, they haue gone so farre on the other syde, that they are no lesse to be blamed, then those whome they do condemne. For if it bee perillous to credite to muche the iudgementes of men, so is it also daungerous, if that we gyue not that cre­dite that we ought to do, to the iudgementes of those, which gouerne them selues accordyng to the worde of God. T. It is a very hard matter to kepe measure and meane, and so to do thinckyng to auoyde the one sorte, of extremitie and [Page 104] perill, that wee fall not more daungerously into the other. For if I gyue no credite to the iudgemente of others, but will dwell wholly vpon myne owne, and vpon my oppini­on, wherin am I more worthy of prayse, then they whō I do condempne? Am not I a man as they are? D. There is no doubt but if I do folow onely mine owne iudgement, & fantasie, I folow the iudgement of men, for I am no God, any more then other men are. If the others be to be blamed, by­cause of their ouer muche lightnes, negligēce, raysh belife, & follie, so should I also feare that I be not subiecte to greater blame through follie, pride, selfe will & false persuasiō of my selfe. T. Here is no smal daūger: but before all other things we ought to feare, least we stand to much in our owne con- & trust to much to our owne iudgements & vnderstanding, despising the iudgementes of others, & to be to much gyuen and wedded to our own willes. For this vice is meruellous daungerous, & is the chief fountain and cause of all heresies and Scismes, whiche are the most daungerous pestilences, that may happen into the Church. D. Therfore haue I sayd these thinges to the ende that we mighte know how to fo­low that moderation, the which S. Augustine hath folowed without giuing more or lesse vnto men, then faith & Christi­an charitie may endure, yelding alwayes to God, & to the canonicall Scriptures, that honor which we do owe vnto thē, & taking good hede, that we gyue no more to Councels & to men, then to them, what apparēce or shew so euer they haue For they that come to Councels, are men. And in that they are men: they are chaungeable, subiecte to errors and vn­truth. They do conclude accordynge as the spirite is, by whom they are gouerned. If they be led by the spirit of God they wyll conclude in the fauour of the truth: yf they be led by the spirite of error, as were the Prophetes of Achab agaynste Miche, they will maynetayne and confirme lyes. i. King. xxii. And by these meanes they, that shal followe them, shall bee in very good case.

Of the difference that men ought to put betvvene the doc­trine and vvritings of the Apostles and Prophets, and of those that came after them, and the cause therof.

28 T. I Do confesse that those which come to the Councels, are men, but a man may replye, that in a lawfull ge­nerall Councell, they are guided by the holy Ghost, and that he will not suffer them to erre. S. Paule and S. Iohn, Iame. i. Act. 3. 14 Gal. 1. 2. Dauid and Ely, Esay and Moyses, and all the Prophets and Apostles were men like vnto others, subiecte to y e same infirmities that others were, and yet S. Paule doth so au­thorise his doctrine (as hath bene alreadye sayd) that he con­dempneth the Aungels of heauen, if they doe gayne saye it. Wherfore they conclude, that euen so as the Prophets and Apostles were men; and yet notwithstanding all their wri­tinges are without errour, euen so fareth it with the fa­thers in all their determinations and Councels. D. They conclude veri euel, and speak wholy against the sentence of S. Augustin, who is as good a christiā as any one. For they attribute as much to the bokes & ordinances of men, as to the Canonicall bookes: whereupon we oughte to consider, that albeit the Prophets and Apostles were men, yet not­withstanding there is greate difference betwene them and those that came after them. For we are certayne that they spake by the spirit of God, and that God hath not suffered any errour to be mingled in their writinges, because that he woulde they shoulde be geuen and left to vs for most cer­tayne rules, wherby to examine all other doctrines. There is yet an other matter besyde this, which is well worthye to be noted: To wit, that if any of those by whom it hath plea­sed God to be serued in this woorke, haue chaunced to com­mitte any faulte in their office, the spirite of God hath not hidden it, but hath manifestly declared it, to the end y e men shoulde not so be moued with the authoritie of suche perso­nages, that they shoulde followe lies in the steed of y e truth, [Page 106] and vice in the steede of vertue. We haue an euident exam­ple hereof in Nathan the Prophet, who without hauing de­maunded i. Sam. 7 at the mouth of the Lord, sayd of his owne onely authoritie, and proper councell to Dauid, that he shoulde builde the Lordes house and temple, wherfore he was rebu­ked and corrected immediatly: the next nyght following by the Lorde, who commaunded him to declare the contrarye to Dauid. We may also alledge y e example of the Prophet which was sent into Beth-el and was kylled by the Lyon: i. kings. 17 Iob in Iere. xx i. Kings. xix Ionas. 2 Gal. 2 and that of Iob, and of Ieremie who cursed the day of their byrth: and also that of Hely and of Ionas, & so many faults of S. Peter and especially that for the whiche S. Paule re­proued him. I leaue vntouched a number of others: such lyke. Now it standeth not so at this present with vs, ne yet with the auncient doctors that were before vs. For seing that God woulde that thys rule shoulde be obserued in hys church, it coulde not otherwise be, but y t it must be appoyn­ted by a number of bookes certayne, or ells there woulde neuer haue beene any ende. Seing then that the Lorde hath once appoynted and allowed thys rule, we maye compare vnto it neyther booke nor Councell, what so euer they bee. For if since the time of the Apostles there hath neuer beene man, of what holines or knowledge so euer he were, that hath so perfectelye and wel written and taughte, as the Prophettes and Apostles didde without faylinge in anye one thinge▪ wee maye not thincke that it is otherwise in their Councelles and Sinodall statutes, then it is in their bookes. For those that write such bookes, be the very self and same men by whom the Councells are celebrated and holden, vnto whom their aduises and opinions are spo­ken, euen as they are couched in their bookes. Wherefore they may as wel erre in the one, as in the other: we must al­so knowe that the most holy and perfecte men in deede haue not all the giftes of God, neyther continuallye nor in all ages, ne yet in all things, no, not those giftes in dede which are geuen vnto them: but that GOD doth reueale manye [Page 107] thynges to others, and at other tymes.

VVhat rule S. Augustine geueth concerning Councells and the vvritinges of the auncient Fathers.

29 T. SEing it is so, it is very nedeful that we haue some cer­tayne rule wherwith to guide vs in these matters. D. I doe thinke that we can not doe better, nor follow a better rule, when any of these things come in question, then to fol­lowe y e maner of proceding that S. Augustine did vse with Maximine, Bishop of the Arrians, which would arme him­self with the Councell of Arimine, againste the conclusion that was made and confyrmed by y e holy fathers, touching the diuinitie of our Lorde Iesus Christ, in the Councell of Nice, by the authoritie of the truth, as it is sayd, and hy the truth of authoritie. Tom. 6. Lib. 3. ‘I may not now, sayeth he, alledge the Councell of Nice, nor thou the Councel of Arimine, as for a preiudice, neyther am I bounde to the authorite of the one, nor thou to the authoritie of the o­ther. Let vs debate the one matter with the other, the one cause with the other, the one reason with the other, by the authoritye of the Scriptures, not by proper and particu­lar witnesse of euery man, but by indifferent to vs both. Which thing he hath also written in other places as con­cerning To Paul, Epist. 112 To Hic. 29 Epist the authoritie of the Canonicall bookes, & agre­eth very well with this. I will not, saith he, that thou em­brace myne authoritie, to the end thou shouldest thinke it necessarie to beleue any thing, because that I haue spokē it: but that thou beleue the Canonicall Scriptures. And againe, I confesse to thy charitie, that I haue learned to beare that honour and reuerence to the onely bookes of the Scriptures which are called Canonicall, that I doe beleue assuredlye that no one of the authors of them hath in any one iote of his writinges erred. And i [...]diatlye after he sayth: But I read y • others in such [...] what excellencie of holines and doctrine so euer be [...], I [Page 108] thinke not that which they saye to bee true because that they were of that opinion, but because that I am per­swaded that that whiche they speake, is agreeing to the truth, eyther by the Canonicall authors, or els by appa­raunt reason.’ This is his manner of writing to Saint Hierome. And agayne, thou seest here howe S. Augustine submitteth the writings of the auncients, and the Coūcels, to the worde of God, and to the determinations therof, con­teyned in the holy Scriptures, and maketh it iudge aboue all. T. I do finde the aduise of S. Augustine very good: but me thincketh there are other things to be considered in that conference and difference of the auncient Doctors and de­terminations of the lawfull Councels, whereof I woulde gladlye heare the resolution. But because that we haue en­treated of manye good poyntes touchyng thys matter of Councells, it seemeth to me very good for this present hers to make an ende, to the end I may haue some little tyme to call to my remembraunce those thinges, whereof we haue alreadye discoursed to that purpose, and because I will not be to tedious vnto thee. D. Feare not to demaunde of me: for there is nothing that I doe more willinglye. T. I know that wel, but I should be to much discourtese and rude, if I shoulde haue no regarde: nor spare thee more then thou wouldest spare thy selfe. Moreouer it is not suffii [...] ­ent for me to heare onely as doe many scholers, whiche charge them selues with moe les­sons then their capacitie may endure, doing nothing but heare without profitting or learning of any thing. D. Thou haste reason in that that thou sayest.

❧ The effect of the thyrd Dialogue intitled the authoritie of Councells: making mention of the auncient doctors and decrees.

I Doe conteyne in this Dialogue following, the matter of Councels, concernyng theyr authoritie, alledging many examples of auncient hystories, by the which I doe shewe the greate contrarietye that hath beene betwene many Councels, and many decrées and Ca­nons, as wel of them, as of Romishe Popes. There is in the same also mention made of the libertie geuē to Christians, for to reforme the abuses that shall happen in religion, and of the duetie y t euery man doth owe to the same: and of the attent of them that do attend vpon those that are called the prelates of the church. Likewise of the lawefull assembles that are made in the name of Christ: and of the gift of Pro­phecie: and of the promise of God, and to whom, and vppon what condition. Moreouer, of the authoritie of the true and lawfull Councels, which must be holdē to be the very rule and lyne to rule all others, and what proceeding and order the Pope and his do obserue in theirs. And as touching the rest, euery man may the more easely vnderstand the other poyntes and matters th [...]t therin are entreated of, by the li­tle summes or titles, by the which we haue packed thē toge­ther shortly, declaring them in order, euen as we haue done in the Dialognes going before. It is easye to iudge by thys som, why I haue geuen thys title to thys Dialogue.

❧ The thyrd Dialogue, intitled, the authoritie of Councells.

Of the asistance of the holy Ghost in lavvful Councels: and of his giftes: and of the perpetual conseruation of the truth in the church.

  • Tymothe.
  • Daniell.

1 IF thou haddest tyme I woulde verye gladlye that thou wouldest continue those matters, of y e which [Page 110] we did discourse at our laste departure of the one, from the other. D. I am readye when so euer thou wilte be ready to heare. And therfore declare what thou haste to saye, as tou­ching the writings of the auncient Fathers and Doctors, & what difference there ought to be put betwene them and y e decrées passed and determined in the lawfull Councells. T. When these good fathers and auncient doctors, do teach or write any thing in particular, they may more easely erre, being as particulars, thē when they are assembled together at the Councel, in the which the spirit of God doth assiste in greater effecte and vertue, in so much as the giftes & graces which he hath geuen to euery member of the body of Iesus Christ, are all there together euen as it were in one perfecte Roma. xii. i. Cor. xii Ephe. 4 i, Sam. 10 body. Wherefore the one helpeth the other, and euery man feeleth the more presently the vertue of the spirit of God in himself. For if Saule which was forsaken of God, dyd pro­phecie among the Prophets, after y t he was come into their companies, in such sort that it became a common prouerbe among the Hebrewes, and it was sayd: is not Saule also a­mongest the Prophets? Is it not more like to be true that God will geue the spirite of prophecie to them that come to­gether to the Councell for his glory, and for the edification of the Church? For where is it that the promises by y e which God doth promyse his perpetuall assistaunce, and an euer­lasting course of truth to his church, shoulde haue place, if not in such a company? Hath he not sayd: behold, my coue­naunt which I haue made with them. My spirit which is in thee, and my wordes which I haue put into thy mouth, shal Esay. iix not depart frō thy mouth, nor frō the mouth of thy seede foreuer. And agayne, he will geue you an other comforter, the spirit of truth, to the end that he tarye with you. And he shal Iohn. xiiii lead you in the knowledge of all truth. D. I will not vtter­ly denie al that thou saiest, if they come together to that end that thou speakest of. But al Synedes, Seanes and Coun­cels, haue not alwayes ben assembled in the name of Iesus [Page 111] Christ. The examples which are in the ecclesiasticall hysto­ryes doe witnesse the same, and the Canons and decrees which haue bene ordayned and concluded in them. For of­tentimes they repugne the one to the other, as much as do: the fyre and water.

VVhat thynges there are to be desired in Councells, yea e­uen in those Councells vvhich haue beene moste excellent and lavvfull of all those that haue bene celebrated and hol­den since the tyme of the Apostles.

2 T. I Would very gladly y t thou wouldest proue by some examples worthy of fayth, y t which thou now sayest. D. Euen those same y t haue bene most lawfullye assembled, although thei haue ordained & established very good things, founded vpon the word of God, and y t they haue mightelye defended the cause of y e truth, & that God hath not suffered them to erre in the chiefe pointes, & in matters that are pro­perly the very substance of religion, and do concerne the articles of the fayth, necessarye vnto saluation: yet doth it not follow for all y t, but y t they may haue erred in some thinges, & that they may haue made constitutions that somtime are more contrary to y e word of God, thē cōformable. And with­out seking any further, we nede but to examine y e Canons, decrées & ordinaunces of the Councell of Nice, which is ac­compted y e chiefe of all, next to y e Councell of y e Apostles, & of all y t reste consequently, which men thinke to be y t most per­fect & certayn, & most worthy of credite: and it shall be easye to iudge, if euery of thē hold in al respectes y e Apostolike ma­iestie & authoritie, how farre of they are oftentimes frō y e puritie of doctrine, which was in y e primitiue church. For God would not do vnto others that honour, which he hath done to his Prophets, & Apostles: to the end y t the humaine authoritie should not be cōparable to y e deuine, which ought alwaies to be preferred. How many lawes & constitutions may men fynde made in these Councels, which draw more [Page 112] nere to mans wysedome: or to Iewishe and Paganishe su­persticion, then to the simplicitie of the doctrine of the Apo­stles? I speake of the verye same that haue bene decreed by those Councells that are best allowed in the church of God and Christ, and are worthye to bee esteemed the true ser­uauntes of God.

Of the vveakenesses that haue bene founde at the Councell of Nice, in them that vvere there gathered and assembled, and vvhat holy and excellent personages there vvere pre­sent at the same.

3 T. THou speakest as yet but in generall: I praye thee let vs now come to particular examples. D. We spake lastly of the Councell of Nice: but thinkest thou that all the decrees of the same be as wel founded vpon the holy Scrip­tures, as were the disputations, arrestes and determinati­ons which were there agreed vpon against the Arrians? T. I haue no occasion to doubt it, if I see not the contrarye. D. If all those which are named vnto it, were there determi­ned, there are some touching the discipline of the Church very supersticious & curious, and an other sorte rigorous and curious inough. Moreouer I see no greate apparence in that which forbiddeth men to knele, when they praye on the Sondaies, and on the day of Pentecoste. I leaue that whereof Gracian maketh mencion vnder the same title, concerning the consecratiō of temples or churches: because it is to beastly and to vnworthy of such a Councell. On the other part, how much wanted it that it was not forbidden the ministers of the church to vse their lawfull wiues, yea by the common consent of all suche as dyd there assiste, di­rectlye agaynst the worde of God, if one Paphnutius had not had more of the spirite of God in that behalfe, then all Hist. trip. li. 2. c. 13. 14. Euseb. hist. ec [...]l. li 10. [...] the reste of the Councell, who letted that determination, by the very worde of God. Moreouer in the same Councel was not the Emperour Constantine greatly ashamed, to heare [Page 113] the Bishops and pastours of the church, which were men so greatly estemed for their doctrine and holynes of life, so to accuse the one the other (being personages of so greate ho­nestie) and to contend and outrage one an other, as it had bene a number of women that had chidden. Was he not constrained to caste all their accusations and libells of euil report (which they had prepared the one against the other) in to the fire? For he well vnderstoode that these affections and particular causes which they had one agaynste an other, shoulde hinder the principal causes for the which they were assembled. For many of them were more affectionate to their particular causes, then to the common cause: and desi­red more theyr victorie, then that of the truth. There were there, three hundred and threscore Byshops by accompte in that Councell, the flower of Christendome: amonge whom was thys Paphnutius, a Byshop of Egipte, of whom wee haue alreadye spoken, a very man of God who had endu­red muche for the truth, and had the gifte of myracle. Spiridion Bishop, of Cypre, who was a very excellent per­sonnage, there was in lyke sorte present: Paule Neocha­rien Martyr, who had both hys handes burnte in the per­secution, of Maximian, and many other suche lyke who had the gifte of miracle, and had behaued them selues valiaunt­ly and constauntly in that persecution, if then the imperfec­tions, weakenesses and affections wer so great among the Byshoppes, in suche a companie, that Constantine was all amased and ashamed, to see at suche a tyme, that so wor­thy personnages shoulde shewe them selues, in suche sorte men, and so subiecte to their affections: let vs then thincke what myght bee in our tyme, and what assistaunce of the holy Ghost wee may hope: for in suche a companie as shall there assemble. T. It is easie to discerne.

Of the greate contearieties, discordes & dissentiōs that haue ben in many of the auncient Councels, betvvene the By­shops, and the Ministers of the Churche.

D. LEt vs procede: and for greater proofe of that whiche we haue said, let men see in the hystories of y e Church what the partialities, the bandes and dissentions of the Bi­shops haue done, in the Councels holden in Tyr, in Ierusalem, in Antioche, in Sirmie, and at Constantinople. More­ouer Sozo. 2 c 25 hist. tri. li 1. 2. 33. & lib 2 c. 10. c. 30. & lib. 4. c. 10 Rut 1. c. 28 hist. Tri. lib 9. c 12. The [...]do. [...]. c. [...] & lib. 4 c. 24. & lib, 5 howe hath the Councell of Alexandrie troubled that of Calcedonie, and the Councell of Antioche, that of Ephesus. There arose so great trouble in Christendome, and it was so denided and was so full of sectes, Scismes, heresies and humane affections, that if men shoulde haue gyuen more place to the fauour of Emperors, kinges and princes, to the assembles of Popes and Bishops, to the authoritie of Councels, to the arte and eloquence of Orators, to the subtilitie & vnderstandyng of Philosophers, thē to the truth, it had ben nedefull to haue abrogated, cassed, vndone, and abolished, that whiche had ben agreed, determined and hollyly confes­sed for Christe, and for the Christian doctrine, in the Coun­cels of Nice, Millane, Sardice, Corduba and such like, ma­ny other Councels, whiche were holden after them, would haue ouerthrowē all that euer was determined and agreed vpon in them, which had not much lesse apparence then the others. Yf they had not so much or more. And the matters wherof the differences did growe, were of no small importaunce. For there was question of the diuinitie of Christ a­gaynst Hist. Tri. li. 2. c. 20. Soz. 3. the Arrians, for the whiche the Bishops of the East and Weast did celebrate & holde Councels, the one against the other, the one sorte condemnyng the cause and doctrine of the Arrians, the other sorte approuyng and maintay­nyng the same.

Of the contradiction of the Popes, and of their Decrees and Ordinaunces, the one sorte contrarie to the other.

5 T. THou doest declare vnto me, things very vnpleasaunt and offensiue to those that are Christians. D. There is yet much more, as well of Councels, as of Popes whiche [Page 115] will be the presidentes of them. For how many Popes haue there bene that haue condempned and abolished that, which their predecessors haue established & ordained? What a nō ­ber hath there ben of them, whiche haue euen as the aunciēt Romaine Emperors did, who when they possessed the Em­pire after the decease of their predecessors, did abrogate and make of none effect, all that euer their predecessors had esta­blished and ordeyned? Behold one Pope shall make lawes, and shall cause a Councell to be holden for his purpose, in the which he will ordaine, what so euer shall please him, and shall commaunde it vnder payne of excommunication and euerlasting cursing, that the same shalbe kept and obserued among the Christian people. And after him there shal come an other, whiche shall abolishe all that, and shall do cleane contrarie, he shall excommunicate and curse all those that will do that whiche before was commaunded vnder payne of excommunication and dampnation. T. Yf it be so, the Christian people can not chuse but stand alwayes a cursed. D. It is certaine. For it is an impossibilitie to obserue and kepe their Decrees and ordinaunces, without fallyng into such perplexities and inconueniēces: he that will not beleue me, let him rede their Canons and Decrees, and Platina whiche hath written, the lyues of the Popes, and hath bene nourished and broght vp in their Court, and Sabellicus, & the other historians which haue entreated of these matters. T. I beseche thee shewe me some examples to proue this to be true, to the end that I may not thinck that thou speakest of pleasure, without proofe. D. Yf I should alledge al those that I might gather out of their bokes, I could find ynough wherwith to outretayne thee a long tyme: but I will hold me contented with a reasonable nomber, to satisfie thy re­quest. We wil first speake of the Canons and Decrees that the Popes haue made the one sorte contrarie to the other. Platin [...] What agreement is ther betwene the Pope Iohn, the xxij. & the Pope Nicholas, when the one pronounced iudicially y e [Page 116] Iesus Christ and his Apostles possessed nothyng neither in priuate ne yet in common: and the other did the cleane con­trarie. [...]ecre. 4. [...]itl. de di­uor. ca 5 Plat. Sabel In the matter of diuorce, Celestine doth permit that the faithfull partie shall marry agayne: yf that the other partie be fallen into heresie, Innocent on the contrarie de­nieth it. Afterward, Stephen the with hath cut of and made of none effect, the actes of the Pope Formosus, by the authoritie of the Councell: and agayne Iohn the x. who succeded this Stephen, did condempne his sentence in the assemble of Rauenna, here must it nedes be of necessitie, that not onely the one or the other of the Popes hath erred, but also y t Coū ­cels whiche haue folowed their opinions and sentences, whom they haue abused, to cōfirme their errors, abuses, and tyrannie by their authoritie. Wherfore Gerson, which was one of their owne doctors, sayd not without greate reason, that y e saying of one doctor approued by y e Canonical Scriptures, was more to be credited then the declaracion of the Pope, and the saying of a doctor well sene in the holy Scriptures, and alledging the vniuersall authoritie, was more to be credited then a generall Councell. T. He did not amisse, for somuch as they do so disagree amonge them selues. D. Panormitan which was at the same tyme, a man of great reputacion, and was present at the Councels of Constance [...]nor. in [...]a signifi. de Elecii. and Basle, as Gerson was, hath sayd no lesse, althoughe he were a great Idolatre of the Papacie: for he sayd that we ought more to credite the saying of a simple lay man, alled­gyng for hys proofe the Scriptures, then to all the whole Councell.

Of the contrarietie of the Decrees of many Councels tou­chyng the Mariage of the Ministers of the Churche.

6 T. I Do not a litle maruell, that such mē durst affirme any such thyng in those dayes. D. It is so: but the veritie is of such power, that she constraineth her very enemyes, yea the deuils them selues, to confesse her, but folowing our [Page 117] purpose, for so much as we haue spokē of Popes, let vs now come to the cōtrarietie of Councels. The Coūcel of Nice, Hist. Tri. li. 2. c. 13. dist. 31 c Nicen. Plat. in. vita Silu. Dist. 28 cap. Si quis & dist. 30. Siquis virorū. dist. 31. c. Quoniam. of whom we haue already spoken, which was holden in the yeare three. C. twentie and three, did alow the Mariage of Ministers of the Churche, and condēpned those that would forbid it. The first Councell of Sangres, holden in the yere three hundred thyrty and three, hath done no lesse: and did accursse al such as vnder colour of Religion, should leaue their fathers, mothers and wines. The sixth Councel of Cō ­stantinople, hath in like sorte ordeyned that no man should make any vowe to lyue without a wife, & that the Priestes whiche should separate them selues from their wiues, for theyr holy orders sake, should be excluded from the Communion. dist 27. c. Quidam. The Councel of Anticyre, holden in the yeare three hū dred and foure, hath in like sorte permitted that Deacons should marrie, yea euen after that, they had receiued theyr orders. And as concernyng the Councell of Carthage, hol­den Ex Car. [...] ▪ in the yeare foure hundred twenty & one, in the whiche the heresie of Pellagius was condempned by two hundred and seuentene Bishops, among whom S. Augustin was, it appeareth manifestly, by the twelueth constitucion of the Apoc c. [...] Extra de. Clem Co [...], lib. 6. c. 1. Ep [...]p. li 2 Tom. 1. heres. 41 same, that the Bishops and other men of the Churche were married. And Boniface the viij. did suffer the religious to enioy their liberties, althoughe they were married. The viij. Councell of Tolletto, doth allowe to breake al vowes and othes whiche are made agaynst the fayth. And Epiphanius doth earnestly condempne those, who hauing not the gift of continencie, had rather for shame of the worlde, to commit fornication and adulterie secretly, then to marrie. On the Albert. Craut [...]. in Saro. lib. 4 ca. 43 Navvcler. contrarie, the Councell of Neocesarie, holden the yeare three hundred and thirty, and the second Councell of Car­thage, holden the yeare foure hundred and twentie, & after them the Coūcell of Magonce, did condempne the Mariage of Priestes and Ministers of the Churche, & did wholly for­bid it, and did binde the Priestes, Mōckes, and Nunnes, to [Page 118] vnlawfull vowes, impossible for men to kepe, & were cleane contrarie to the worde of God. Thys Councell of Magonce was holden by the Emperour Henry the iij. in the whiche he assembled an hundred and thyrtie Bishops, Some saye that the Pope Leo the ix. was there also present at it. It was also ordeyned in that Councell, y • men of the Church should keepe neytheir hounde, greyhond, spaniel, nor hauke, ne yet should vse any seculer traffique, and that none should be re­ceiued for a Monke, vnles he came of his own free wil, and were of lawfull age: but these Decrees haue not ben so well obserued as hath the forbidding of Mariage. Likewise Gre­gory the vij. a Monk of Clunie, otherwise called Hildebrād, which was Pope in y e tyme of the Emperor Henry the iiij. did commaunde by his letters to Otto Bishop of Constāce, Naucler. [...]lbert. Crauts. Lambert Hirsweld neare about the yeare a thousand fortie and seuen, that he should forbid through out all his diocese all Priestes to ma­rie, whiche were not then maried, and that he should disolue the mariage of all such as were already married. T. I see in this no great accord. D. Notwithstandyng, all this was done, and not without great tyrānie: ne yet without great resistaunce. T. I beleue so.

Of the contrarietie of certaine Councels, concerning the forbiddyng and difference of Meates.

7 D. HEre is as much as I did determine to speake, as tou­ching Mariage, let vs now come to the forbidding of of meates. The second Bracarense Coūcell, holden the yere Di. 30. ca. Si quis. six hundred & nynetene, did acursse all such, as did abstaine from eating of any meate, thorow supersticion: and y t which the Pope Martin helde, did the like. The thyrd Councell of Tolede did accursse those that should forbid men to eate. And the Pope Eleutherius did ordayne, that no mā should refraine throughe supersticion from eatyng of any meate that was agreable with mans nature. On the contrarie, the Romaine Coūcell, did forbid to eate fleshe on the Saterday: [Page 119] and afterward that defence was extended further, as we see at this day, to Friday, Vigils, Imber dayes, and Lent. T. The Papistes will replie agaynst this and say, that by ma­kyng of those statutes concerning y e forbiddyng of meates, they do nothing agaynst the auncient Decrees and Coun­cels, for so much as they do abstaine neither for supersticiō, ne yet for any euill opinion, that they haue of the good cre­tures of God, as did the aūcient heretikes, but onely for ab­stinence. D. I vnderstand it well, but if they do it for absti­nence, how happeneth it, that they haue on those dayes these kindes of meat, which are forbidden, in so great abhomina­tion? Why do they attribute to their abstinence so great merites? why do they not rather put difference in the quan­titie of the meate, then in the kind? whiche they do not at all. T. It is euen so.

Of the Decrees of the Councell of Constāce, and Basle, tou­chyng the supper of the Lorde vnder both kyndes, and of the supremicie of the Pope, and of the Romishe Churche, and of their contrarietie.

8 D. LEt vs now procede to other matters. The Councel of Constance did forbid to administer, the supper of the Lorde to the people vnder both kindes, to wit, of bread and wyne, and the Councell of Basle, did graunt both the one & the other to them of Bohemia. But there is a more straūge matter. That same very Councell of Constance, doth eui­dently speake agaynst it selfe, and agaynste that of Nice, & of Aphrique, & the whole Churche of the East and Aphrique. For it condempned that article of Iohn Hus, to wit: That the Pope by the authoritie of the worde of God, is not the head of the Churche: & yet was it decreed in that same Coū ­cell, that the Councell was aboue the Pope, whiche thynge doth very well agree with the sentence of S. Ierome, which sayth, if there be question of authoritie, that of all the world is greater, thē is that of one towne, in like sorte is the whole [Page 120] Church greater then one Romishe Church, and the Romish Church is not aboue the vniuersall Church, but on the con­trarie, the vniuersal Churche is aboue the Romish Church. Now if the Pope haue authoritie ouer all Churches, and y • the Councell doth represent them, it doth folow both that he is aboue the Councell, and that he is not aboue the Coūcell, contrarie to the determination of the sayd Councell of Constance, whiche is mingled with manifeste contradictions. I leaue a parte that whiche they did define: That the Churche was not the vniuersitie of the predestinate: & that our good worckes must helpe to saue vs, as well as the grace of God. I speake not at all of the Decree that was made in y e same Councell, that men ought not to holde any promise, othe, or safeconducte, made or gyuen, to heretikes, whiche thynge forthw t was put in vse, not agaynst heretikes, but agaynst the seruauntes of God, whiche were there condempned for heretikes, and were burned as heretikes. T. Yet was thys a general Councell. D. It was so. T. I do not a litle mar­uell that such matters could passe in a generall Councell, whiche the heathens would not haue passed, but would ra­ther, haue iudged it meete to kepe promesse, euen with a mans very enemyes.

Of the contrarietie that hath bene in many Councels, con­cernyng Images.

9 D. IF I should alledge the dissentions, that haue ben in diuerse Coūcels concernyng Images, it would require Enti. de Re. Ro lib 23 Anton. Florent. a longe tyme. For Gregorie the iij. decreed by his Councell in Italie, that Images should be honored in the Churches, and did reuolte and caused Rome, and all Italie, to rebell agaynst the Emperour Leo the iij. whiche was of contrarie Auspurg. in [...]hro minde. And afterwarde Constantine the v. sonne to the sayd Leo, did ordeyne the contrarie in the Councell of Asia, and Gretia, about the yeare seuen hundred fortie and sixe, at the which there were assembled thirtie eight Byshops at Con­stantinople. [Page 121] Agayn Stephen the iij. Pope, condempned this Councell of Constantine, by an other Councell, whiche he caused to be holden at Rome in the Church of Laterane, by the Bishops of Italie and Fraunce. The which thynge was done again by an other Councel, in y e tyme of Hir [...]ne, wyfe to Leo the iiij. After that, the Councell of Nice (in the which the Greekes would haue condempned the Images agayne) was enforced to breake vp, by meanes of the dissentiōs that there were, and throughe the practises of those that helde for the Pope. Whilest these thinges were in hand in Grece, the Councel Elibertin was holdē in Spayn, by twentie & nine Bishops, and thirtie sixe Spanish Priests, which pronoun­ced their sentences against Images: who were also condēp­ned by the twelfeth Councell of Tolede, and afterward for the Popes pleasure, and for the French kinges sake, they were agayne alowed by an other Councell. T. Here was good stuffe.

Of the Councell of Carthage, concernyng the Baptisme ad­ministred by heretikes.

10 D. IT is no maruayle since that the Romishe Popes haue vsurped tyrannie ouer the Church, and especially sythe the tyme of the Emperour Phocas, if that there hath beene smal reason to be found in any of the Councells, but I wil alledge you others more auncient. It was concluded in the Councell of Carthage (at the which S. Cyprian was pre­sent Euseb. 7. c. 5 with. lxxxvi. Bishops, to wit in maner with all the Bi­shops of Aphrike, Numidie, and Mauritanie) that the Bap­tisme administred by heretikes, shoulde haue no place, but that those which had beene Baptised by them, shoulde bee Baptised agayne. The which sentence was afterward con­dempned, as appeareth. Dist 5 quare.

Of the sentence and opinion of the Papistes concerning the generall and particuler Councells, and of the diuersitie of their decrees.

T. THese against whō thou doest inuey, will confesse vn­to thée that the Councells, yea the general Councels, 11 in that that concerneth the manners and discipline of the Church, haue oftentimes determined diuerse thyngs with­out any preiudice of the fayth, according to the condition & circumstance of the places, times and men, and such lyke. De consan­gui. & affini [...]a cap. non debet. For this cause Innocent the third sayd. That it ought not to be iudged a thing worthy of blame, if that according to the chaunge of time, mens ordinaunces dyd also chaunge, chiefely when an vrgent necessitie and an apparaunt com­moditie doth requyre it. For God himselfe hath chaūged di­uerse of those things in the new Testament which he ordei­ned in the olde. And therfore mē may not rashlye iudge and say, that the Councells are contrary the one sort to y e other, although that in thinges concerning the policie of y e church more then the fayth, the one hath oftentimes chaunged: that the other hath decreed. For the lawfull generall Councells, were neuer contrarye the one to the other in anye peece of the substaunce of our fayth, which is necessarye to our sal­uation. And in this sort muste it be vnderstoode that S. Au­gustine hath sayd. The former Councells haue bene amen­ded August. Tom. 7. de baptis. cont donatist. li. [...]. cap 3 by the latter: and that the ordinaunces and decrees of prouinciall Councells, ought to geue place to those of grea­ter Councells: but y e Canonicall Scripture doth geue place to none. And as touching the Councell of Carthage, it was no generall but a particuler Councell, as Saint Augustine proueth agaynst the Donatystes. And in deede they denye not but y t particular Councells may erre: and y t they ought to be reformed by the generall, as it is already declared.

Of the errours and abuses that haue beene brought into the church, vvhat meane there ought to be had for the correc­tion and amendment of such Councells, vvhen nede shall requyre.

12 D. THen they do confesse, at the least, that the prouinciall Councells may erre, yea euen those, in the which the [Page 123] most wyse and holy men that were in the worlde since the Apostles tyme haue bene present. For S. Cyprian was one Euseb. 7. 5. cap of the best learned men that hath beene in the church since that tyme, and was of such zeale towards the word of God and his church, that he dyed a martyr for the truth of Iesus Christ, And then iudge you that if a Councell in the which such personages were, might erre: what we may thinke of many Idolatries and supersticions, and of many vaine ce­remonies, tradicions and abuses that haue bene sowed in the church, not by Councells and particular Synodes one­ly, but by particuler men, who haue charged the church to what so euer pleased them. For one hooded Monke or Fryer had beene sufficient to haue inuented a thousand maner of doinges cleane contrarye to the Scriptures, and forthwith they shoulde haue beene put in vse, and allowed as if they had beene articles of the fayth. If it were lawfull then to chaunge those same verye thinges which the generall and lawfull Councells had decreed, concerning the policie and discipline of the Church, as touching their maners, accor­ding to the nedefulnes of the circumstaunces, and the capa­citie of men, of places and tymes: it oughte then to bee no lesse lawfull to those vnto whom God hath geuē the know­ledge of hys worde to condempne and abolyshe so many a­buses & innumerable errours, which by so many meanes and wronge waies, without order or ecclesiastike discipline haue beene sowed in the Church of the Lord: and are so in­tollerable, that the very greatest enemyes of veritye, euen the Romaine Antichrist haue beene constrayned to confesse it. And without going any further to proue it, dyd not the Pope Adrian confesse, not manye yeares since, that there were many enormities and inconueniences in the Romish seate, and many abuses, offences, and disorders in the go­uernment of the Church? And beside thys, what confession dyd the Legates and oratours of the Pope Paule deceased make, at the Councell of Trent, of y e estate of their church? [Page 124] But what wilte thou saye if I doe proue by S. Augustine that not onely the prouincial and nationall Councels may be corrected by the greate and generall Councels, but also euen they them selues maye bee corrected the one by the o­thers, the fyrst by the laste. T. If it be so, our aduersaries shoulde not then thinke it straunge if we would not wholly dwell vppon the authoritie of their Councells. D. That same doth playnlye appeare by his writinges, wherevpon he declareth, when that same ought to be done and by what meane: To witte, that when by experience of thinges, that which was secret is opened, and that which was hidden is knowen, without any puffing vp in pryde full of sacrilege, without any swollen arrogancie, withoute any contention and enuye, but with holy humilitie, with the vniuersall Christiā peace, he speaketh here generally of all Councells, and of all that euer may be determined in them.

Of those that vvayte vpon the Prelates of the Church, and vvoulde haue them to correcte the abuses that therein are: and vvhat libertye euery man hadde to sovve and bryng them into the Church: and vvhat agreement & difference there is betvvene the auncient Heathen Emperours, and the Popes, and their Councells and assemblyes.

13 T. THey doe not vtterly denye but that there are some a­buses and errours in the Church, but they say that it appertayneth not to euery man to reforme them: but that the charge thereof belongeth to the prelates of the Church, vnto whom GOD hath geuen it. Wherfore, they thinke meete, to haue a generall Councell, to determyne what thynges shoulde bee obserued, and what shoulde bee aboly­shed, before that any thyng shoulde be chaunged or altered. D. The Seducers and false Prophets, which filled y e church with errours, dyd not tarye a generall Councell to poure out their poyson and to corrupte the Church of the Lorde, but we muste tarrye for a Councell to pourge it: and in the [Page 125] meane tyme the poore soules shall goe to the deuill. Muste we put the matter in question in a Councell, whether we ought to beleue that Iesus Christ is God, and the verye Sonne of God, and our onely Sauiour and redeemer? Shall we doe as dyd the Emperour Tiberius, who put the matter in deliberaion in the Councell at Rome, with the prerogatiue of his voyce and the testimonye of hys con­sent, whether Christ shoulde bee accepted and receaued a­mongest the Gods, or no? Which thing he did for that (as Tertullian witnesseth) that the Romaines had a very aun­cient lawe, by the which it was ordayned, that there should Apolo. 5. bee no God canonized by the Emperours, and that none shoulde be so receaued, vnlesse he were allowed and confir­med by the Councell. For thys cause Iesus Christ was not receaued for a God, because it pleased not the Coun­cell: albeit that the Emperour was of contrarye opinion. T. Then had not the Emperour so great authoritie in the Councell at Rome, ne yet in hys Empyre as the Pope will chalenge ouer the Councells, ouer the whole church, ouer al Christendom, yea and ouer the word of god it self. D. It is true, and therefore I feare greatlye that if Iesus Christ were now to be receaued, he shoulde be as farre of from be­ing receaued at the Councells, in the which thys Romaine Antichrist doth preside, as he was then at that Councell of Rome. For sithe they doe reiecte and disalowe hys doctrine, they do sufficiently declare what opinion they haue of him. T. It can not be better knowen by any thing then by that, for that is a profe most sure.

Of the thinges vuhich of them selues are alreadye sufficient­ly resolued among all men, vvithout looking for any reso­lution of the Councell: and of the negligence and careles­nesse that is in vs to put them in vse, and to gouerne oure selues according to the same.

14 D. IF they thinke him to bee the very Sonne of God, and that his Gospell is the worde of God, they nede not to [Page 126] tarye for a Councell to determyne whether it shal be recea­ued and obserued, or no, but woulde rather endeuour themselues to put in execution those things which are not in cō ­trouersie, but are alreadye agreed vpon & resolued amonge all men, as well by the word of God, as by their own Coun­cels. Let them therfore correcte their ignoraunce and beast­lynes, their negligence and slouthfulnes in the executing of their office, and their pompes and ambition, their insatia­ble couetousnes, their execrable whooredome, with y e num­ber of those horrible vices which raigne among them. For there nedeth not any tarying for y t Councell, to condempne or allowe it, for it is alreadie resolued. Why do they not ob­serue the decrees of the Pope Alexander y e thyrd, of Gelase, of Nicolas the seconde, of the Elibertin Councell of Tolede, of Carthage, of * Cabylone, of Chalcedonie, and of Laterane, which haue forbidden to any, money or presentes for the sa­tisfaction of sinnes, for baptisme, for the churches, for the Sacramentes, and for the gifts of God: which ordeyned al­so that none should be aduaūced to any place in the church for money, ne yet for rewardes: and that he should be holdē for Apostatike, and not for Apostolike, that shoulde obtayne the seate of Rome, eyther by money or els by fauour? Why are not the poore nourished and clad, and also the sicke and weake, by the Bishops, according to the ordinaunces of the Aurelian Councel? Why do the Monkes possesse any thyng in proper, contrarye to the determination of that same Councell? But all thys is olde and abolyshed, why may we not lawfullye reproche them in that sorte that Iesus Christ dyd those Iewes, which soughte to haue him dead, because he hadde healed a man sicke of the Palsey vppon the Sabboth daye: and yet lefte not they to violate and breake the whole law vpon the Sabboth daye? And ther­fore he sayd vnto them, dyd not Moyses geue you the lawe, Iohn. vii. and none of you obserueth the same? Why doe you seeke to put me to death? They declared playnely by that what [Page 127] zeale they hadde to the lawe, and yet woulde they shewe as though they had a greate care for the obseruation ther­of, and chiefely in the pursute which they made against Ie­sus Christ. These good men doe euen the lyke, making a shewe as though they dyd greatlye desire the reformation of the Church, and yet in the meane tyme there is no one peece of the worde of God, Councell nor Canon which they doe not violate and corrupte, without geuing order in anye one thing. Nowe seing that men are come so farre, there needeth nowe but a Councell to abolishe the reast that re­mayneth: for who be they that shall holde it? Euen those which haue sowed, authorised, and allowed these errours and abuses. And yet will they glorye that their law, and fayth, with their whole religion is so well approued, that no one iote thereof ought to be called in doubte. It may be no more disputed of, then maye the Alcoran of Mahomet a­monge the Turkes, but must be holden for fullye resolued, what so euer they do approue or disalowe.

VVhat lihertie Christians haue to reforme the abuses that are among them, accordyng to the povver and authoritye vvhich God hath geuen them.

15 T. THey will confesse that there are manye thinges (as it hath bene already sayd) which may be chaunged and abolished according as necessitie shall requyre: as we haue Actes. xv example in the Councell of Ierusalem holden by the Apo­stles, as hath ben heretofore declared. There were thinges that wer ordeined but for a certain time, which we obserue not at this present, for we haue not that occasion, vnto the which the Apostles then had regarde, now among the Chri­stians none are offended to see men eate bloude, or to eate of a strangled beast. D. Then if the Church hauyng well considered the intent and end whereunto the Apostles dyd tend, haue abolished in processe of time y t which y e Apostles thē selues did decrée as touching y e ceremonies, knowing y t the ordinaunce did not touch at al any part of y e substaunce [Page 128] of y e fayth, but y t it was ordained only for a bond of peace, to kepe charitie, & to beare for a time w c the infirmite & weake­nes of y e Iewes: why may she not thē more lawfully vse her authoritie to abolishe y e idolatry, y t supersticions & mens tra­ditions, which are directly against y e fayth, charitie, all good discipline & good order, & against y e health of soules? And if it cā not be done by a generall consent of Christendome, why shal not they yet in their behalfe employ them selues, which shall haue best meanes to beginne some good reformation? For if it haue bene lawful for a hooded fellowe so boldly to set forth for y e word of god, his dreams: shal it not thē be lawfull for a Christiā prince, being accompanied with learned men y t feare God, and good ministers of the Gospel, hauing y e word of God for their guide, to reforme y e churches within their dominions & countryes, according to the example of Ezechias & Iosias, and to pourge them of so manye intolle­rable iiii. Kings. xviii. &. xxiii abuses, without tarying any longer for y e determina­tion of a Councell? But are not all Christiā princes bound to doe this? for so much as those which oughte to procure it wil not vnderstand of it as they ought to do, but do enforce them by all meanes to hinder it y t there should be none law­full, ne yet any thing concluded y t were good. And therefore we ought not so to depēd vpō Coūcels, be they particuler or general, y t we should not do our duty always, according to y e graces & means which god shal geue vs. For we may not thinke y e God is subiecte to the greatest multitude, for then would he not haue spokē y t which hath ben already alledged in an other place: Thou shalt not follow y t great number in euil, and thou shalt not dwel in any thing, because that many Exod. xxiii. doe it, to wander out of the waye, and to peruert iudge­ment. This were a great folly to imagine, if that we should thinke y t al those which shal assēble to hold a coūcell, be assu­red to shutte in forthwith the spirit of God ther: into y t place wher they shal come together, to haue him at their pleasure.

Of the passages vvhich the papists alledge to authorise their Councells, and of the true meaning of these same.

T. THey do builde vpon this, that Iesus Christ said: Whē you shallbe twoo or three gathered together in my 16 name, I wyll be in the middest of you. Beholde, I am with Ma, 18. 28 you to the end of the worlde: if he promes to be in the myd­dest of two or three, by more apparant reason, ought we to beleue that he is in the middest of a whole Councel. D. But we must note vpon what conditions he promiseth to bee a­mong them: First he sayth, that if we do agree together vpō the earth, if we be of one accorde, of one consent, of one hart and of one spirite, if we be carefull to kepe vnitie of spirite throughe the band of peace, if we be one body and one spi­rite, as we ar called into one hope of our vocation, as there Eph. 4. is one Lord, one fayth, and one Baptisme, one God and fa­ther of al. And besides this, if we be gathered together in his name, to wit in his vertue and force, and not in the vertue and power of mē, for his honor and glori, and not for ours, neither yet for our ambitiō for the edificatiō of his Churche and the health of poore soules, not for our profite & aduaūcement, but wishing veritie to haue the victorie, and not we: now let vs see if it be easie to obserue all these condicions, & what hope we may haue in our tyme of a Councell, y t shall obserue all these pointes, without the whiche in dede he can not be called a Councell, but rather a Synagoge of Sathā, and can bring no commoditie to Christendome, but rather hurte and destruction: how is it possible to haue him such an one as he ought to be, consideryng that those whiche should procure it, feare nothyng more then to haue a Councel such an one as he ought to be? T. It is easie to iudge by that, that hath ben already sayd.

Hovve that the holy Ghost, is neither subiect nor bounde to any kinde of person or estate.

17 D. THere is yet one thyng more, very well worthy to bee noted, whiche is that our Lord Iesus Christe, did not say, when a generall Councell shalbe gathered together, or [Page 130] all the estates of Christendome, or the Pope, the Cardinals and Bishops, or els a great assemble shall be had, I will be in the middest of them: but he sayd he would be in the mid­dest of them, yea although they wer but two or three, so that they were gathered together in his name. In the whiche he doth playnly declare, that he will be bounde neither to menne yet to estates, neither yet to the multitude: but how smal so euer the nomber be, of what estate so euer the men be, he will be in the middest of them, prouided that they come together as they ought to do. For all though the promesse of Ie­sus Christ, be made to his whole Churche, yet doth it appartaine in no wise to hipocrites, false Pastors, and false Chri­stians, whiche are not in any wise true mēbers of the same, whiche is the body of Iesus Christ: but are members of Sa­than, and of his Synagoge. And therfore onely must it ex­tend, to the true members of the Churche: among whome these thynges may be practised, which S. Paul setteth forth to the Churche of the Corinthes, sayng: let two or three Prophetes speake, and let the rest iudge. And if any thyng be re­uealed i. Cor. iiii. to any other of the assistantes, let the first holde hys peace. There is no man but may easily vnderstād, that this cā not be obserued, but in y e true Church of Iesus Christ, & among those that haue the gift of the spirit of God, which is not gyuen to carnal men, and straungers to Christian doc­trine, but to such as are spirituall, and those whiche call vpō the name of God in truth: for the spirituall man may iudge [...]. Cor. ii of spirituall thynges, and not the carnal. how is Christ then in the middest of his, and doth assiste thē by his holy spirite, in so much as they are gathered together in his name, other wise he will be in no companie, although the whole worlde were gathered together with all her pompe, if it be not assē ­bled in the name of Iesus, to such end as hath ben already declared. Wee haue a manifest example, by the small assemblees of the Apostles, and of the primitiue Churche, and by those of the great Synagoge of Bishops, of Priestes, of [Page 131] Scribes and Phariseis, and of the Councels of the Iewes: for it is written of such, It shall be gyuen to euery man that Math. xx [...] Ose. iiii. hath, and he shal become plentiful: but he that hath nothing, euen that whiche he hath shall be taken from him. And in Ose, bycause thou hast refused the knowlege, I haue also refused thee, to the end thou shouldest not sacrifice to me, and bycause thou hast forgoten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. And therfore he sayth, yf you abyde still in my worde, you shall be my disciples, and shall knowe the Iohn. xvii [...] truth. Then he promiseth not to be among them, whiche by a false title shal be assēbled in his name, to gyue new lawes and ordinaunces to the Churche concernyng Religion, but to obserue and kepe those whiche he hath gyuen, and to vse y e keis which she hath receiued of him, in such sort as he him selfe hath ordeined. For y e Church nedeth none other lawes, but euen those which she hath receiued of him, and therfore math, 16. 1 [...] the Councell of Gangers, hath accursed all those which continue not in the law of the Lord, and do dayly make new ordinaunces. T. This is very reasonable, and doth well a­gree with that whiche is written of y e Lord, happy are those Psalm. cxi [...] whiche continew without spot in the way, whiche walke in the law of the Lord, happy are they which do enquire of the testimonies of the same. D. And therefore Christ doth say, searche you the Scriptures, yf any man do loue me, he will Iohn. v Iohn. xiiii i. Tim. iiii. kepe my worde. And S. Paul to Timothe, Geue attendance vnto readyng. T. These are very good aduertisementes.

VVhat assembles the faithfull do make, and of the auncient Decrees, concernyng the celebration of Councels.

18 D. IF there were no question, but to holde Councels and Synodes among the faithfull, whiche haue professed the Gospell, and to gather them together to agree them, yf they haue any difference among them, as there was in the primitiue Churche in certayne pointes, bycause the one did not well vnderstand the other: it were but an easie matter, [Page 132] as it was for the apostles & their disciples: but that could not content the world. Such meetinges and assembles are very good, to entertaine the Churches in peace, and in the vnion of the doctrine, and of the Christian discipline, for that cause it was decreed in the v. Canon of the Councell of Nice, that their should be yearely in euery prouince two Councels of Bishops, the one a litle before Lent, the other about the Au­tumne, which thing is now no more obserued in the Popish Churche, then are other good thy [...]ges, whiche haue ben or­deyned by the Councels: all be it she do glory in them, yea in the most auncient, and that the Councell of Antioche, chap. 20. and the Councell Agathense, chap. 71. haue also ordey­ned and after confirmed. T. It were good holdyng of suche Councels: For in the meane tyme our aduersaries & those whiche are out of the way, & straungers to the true Church of Christ, would do nothyng but scoffe and mocke, as they now do, and would holde other Councels, to condempne all that should be determined in the true Councels, as the Scribes and Phariseis, the Byshops and Priests of Ierusalem, did condempne all the doctrine of the Apostles, & of the Chri­stian Churche by thers.

Of the Councels of the heretikes, vvhiche did cōdempne the Councels of the faythfull.

19 D. THat whiche thou sayest is no new thyng: for in tyme passed the Councell of Arrimine did condempne al y t Hist. Tri. li. [...]. c. 10. 21 was determined and agreed vpon in the Councell of Nice. And although it were a generall Councell, and had in it sixe hundred Bishops, yet notwithstāding it erred with Arrius, and did approue his doctrine, which before was condēpned, by the Councell of Nice. And albeit the Arrians sought no­thyng els, but to abolishe the faith of the diuinitie of Christ, agreed vpon at the Councell of Nice, yet notwithstanding they would arme them, with the authoritie of the same Coū cell, to cause the Confession of their faith, vnder that colour [Page 133] to be receyued, whiche they had made there cleane contrary to that, whiche they there made, lyke very vniust and false men. And was not in maner, the lyke done at the Councell of Philopole in Thrace, by the Arrians against the Coūcell of Saraice holden in Illyrye? And did not the second Coun­cell hist. tri. li. 4. c 24 hist. Tri. lib 3. c 9. & lib. 3. c. 16, &. 34 of Ephese, also erre with Eutiches and Dioscorus? T. And as touchyng the Councell of Arrimine, thou knowest that it was deuided, as was the Coūcel of Seleucie in Isaurie, in the whiche a hundred and three score Bishops gathe­red them selues together agaynst the Councell of Nice: for the Arriās gathered them together on the one part, and the true and faithful on the other part. Moreouer it is said, that the Councell of Arrimine was not lawful, for so much as it was called agaynst the minde of Liberius, Pope of Rome, by meanes of the heretikes, who had on their side the Pro­uost Taurus, whiche did so presse and insiste to the same, by prayers and by threatninges, by the cōmaundement of the Hist. Tri. li. [...] c. 36 Emperour, who fauored the Arriās. They say also that the simple Bishops of the West, were taken vnprouided, and seduced by the disceites & subtilities of the heretikes. And ther­fore after that they had well knowen them, they did retracte that whiche was concluded at Arrimine. They say the lyke of the Councell of Milane, holden by the commaundement of Constance the Emperour, whiche was an Arrian, to procure the condempnation of Athanase, that worthy defender of the Christian faith: at the whiche Deonice, Eusebe, Paulin, Hillarie, and diuers others, were also chased frō thence, hist. trip. lib 4. c. 10. bycause they would not subscribe to his condēpnation, nei­ther agree thereunto. D. Thou mayest also well ioyne to these the Coūcel of Antioche, holden vnder Constantius the Emperour, an Arrian, with foure score and ten Bishops: in the whiche Athanase was deposed from his Bishopricke of Alexandrie, and condempned being absent to exile: in which exile, he continued as some do write, about vi. yeares, hiddē in a cesterne, without seyng the sunne, whiche thyngs were [Page 134] done chiefly at the procurement of Eusebius Bishop of Ni­comedie, which ruled the Emperour Constantius, of whom before that tyme he had obtayned a Councell at Constanti­nople, agaynst Alexander Bishop of that place, to cōstrayne him to receiue Arrius, or els to chase him from thence if he Hist. Eccle. lib. 10. c. 13. did resiste it. And the Councell of Cypre, was it not holden for the pleasure of Theophile Byshop of Alexandrie, onely to chase Chrisostome from his Church, & to haue him bani­shed, whiche thyng he did obtayne: hauing in deede seduced Hist. Tri. li. 10 a. c. 8 Vsque ad 18. Socr hist eccles. li. 9, c, 15, 21 Epyphanius, a man of great iudgement and authoritie, to be serued of him in so wicked an enterprise? And the Coun­cel holden in Sidone in the tyme of y e Emperour Anastase, did it not condempne the Councell of Chalcedonie? T. And the Councell of Ephese of the whiche thou hast already spoken, was it not holden by the heretickes, among whom Dioscorus did preside? Wherfore it was not a lawful Coū ­cell, nor in a meete place. And therefore the Popes Legates Niceph, in [...]nast, hist. eccle. lib 2, cap, 2 & Ambassadours, wold not be at it, but it was afterward cōdempned by the Councel of Chalcedonie: Seyng thē that these Councels were not lawfully gathered, nor accordyng to the ordinaunce of the holy Ghost, but were celebrated by heretickes, it is no meruell although they erred.

Hovve it doth appeare by the contradictions, vvhiche haue ben in the auncient Councels, that the Councels may erre, and hovv their conclusions, haue in maner alvvayes bene conformable to the opiniōs of those vvhich haue presided in them, or haue bene the strongest.

20 D. NO more do I approue them: but al that yet hath ben said of these matters, do cōfirm my saying. For we see playnly by that, that Councels may erre, and that they are not sufficient to appease the dissentions and troubles of Christendome, and to assure the consciences of men. For al beit that those same haue ben contrarie the one sorte to the others, yet notwithstādyng they do all boast, that they were [Page 135] gouerned, and directed by the holy Ghost. There were also in them, men of great apparence of wisedom, of vertue and of holynes from all parts, to gyue them greate shewe. They semed to be gathered, in such sorte as lawful Coūcels ought to be, or at the least, they had euer one of them, whiche were estemed the chief heades of Christendome, to call them together, since the Church hath had Emperours, Kynges, & Christian princes: the authoritie hath ben geuen them, to assem­ble the Councels, bycause they had better meanes to do it, then others had, by reason of the power whiche God gaue vnto them. Which thyng in deede was obserued in all generall Councels, vntill the viii. that was holden in the time of the Emperour Basile, as it doth wel appeare, by that which is writen in that same Councell. Act. 5. And if there haue ben any holden, by the cōmaundementes of the Emperours, at the whiche the Bishops & Romishe Popes, or theyr Legates did not assiste, then woulde the Popes also holde others by their authoritie without the Emperours, despising the au­thoritie of them, rebellyng and makyng others to rebell a­gaynst them, as hath ben already sayde. And althoughe the Pope Iulie the firste, did greatly reproue (as Platina doth witnesse) the Bishops of the East, and chiefly the Arrians, Plat, in Iu [...], bycause that without his consent and agreement, they had holden a Councell at Antioche, whiche he sayd they myght not lawfully do, consideryng that the Romish Church was aboue al other Churches: notwithstandyng the Bishops of the East were not without reason on their sides, to defende them with all agaynst the arrogancie of the Pope, saying y t ther was greater reason, why the Churches of the East should haue the preheminence, then the Romishe Church or any other of the Churches of the West, bycause the Gospell was brought from the East into the West, and that then the Imperiall seat was not at Rome: now be it y t the Coun­cels haue ben holden either at y e appointmēt of Emperours, or Popes, or by the consent of both, y e issue alwaies hath ben [Page 136] such as hath ben the doctrine & religion of the Emperours & Popes, which haue holdē thē. For if they haue ben heretiks, the conclusiō hath ben made in the fauour of the heretikes: if they haue ben faithful, they haue concluded in the fauour of the faithful. And if the heretickes haue founde fauour in some Coūcels, where y e Romaine Popes haue not ben. The like haue they done in those where the Popes haue presided since they haue attained to the see of Antichrist. Wer not al those thinges very coombersome, and more apte to trouble the Churche, and to offend the poore Christians, then to edifie them? T. That is very cectayne.

Hovve there is no hope that the Christians, shall euer haue any lavvfull Councell, and reformation in the Churche, by the meanes of the Pope, or of any of his, if they beare any authoritie there.

21 D. ANd if there should be holdē y • best Coūcell y • were pos­sible to be assēbled in all the whole world, there is no doubt but y t the Pope & his would cōdēpne it. Yf it wer not to their mind. For it is an īpossibilitie, y t it shuld both please thē, and yet be a lawfull Coūcell. And to waite, y t the Pope & his should prouide for it, accordīg as it is mete, this should be a great folly: we se y e experiēce of their doings at this day in such matters, to be euē wholly such as was y t of the aun­cient heretikes in tyme passed. For it is certaine y t the Pope will do nothing but for his owne cōmoditie, as it hath ben already right well sene in all y t euer hath ben done by him & his, in these affaires. T. Shewe me wherin. D. Let vs see if he haue not alwayes chosen apte & meate places to holde a Christian general Coūcel, franck & free for all nations. Let vs see what worthy Councell there hath ben holden euen to this day, at Mantoa, at Vicēce, at Trent, at Bologne. The Almaignes haue desired a Coūcell, & y t an assēble mighte be had, they haue presēted y e confession of their fayth, they haue offered to maynetaine their doctrine by the woorde of God: [Page 137] yet for all that they were neuer but alway condemned and holden for heretikes and schismatikes with al their reason, diets, and Councells, because they were not allowed by the holy Apostolike sea, nor signed with the marke of the beast. What is there then to be done? If there be a Councell hol­den by the one sort, the other will condempne it. And on the other side: to tary til all the contrary parties be agreed, as it were needefull, that shoulde bee as farre out of reason as to tarie vntill Herode and Pilate, Annas and Cay­phas, the Scribes and Phariseis, the Saduces and He­rodians, with all their whole Sinagoges should agrée with the Apostles and the church of christ, whom they persecuted and followed to the death. Shall we tary til this great king of Babilon the Romyshe Antichrist, which beareth the three crownes in token y t he is king of kinges, which maketh hys feasts and banckets to his princes & gentlemē, curtyzanes and whoores, as dyd Balthazar the king of Babilon, doe come, and throwe downe these three crownes, to take vp the crowne of Iesus Christ? and that he wil leaue his pleasures and delites, and chaunge them into the pouertie of the Apo­stles? Shall we tarye till he and his (which drincke y e bloude of poore innocentes in cuppes of siluer & golde, which they haue robbed and spoyled from the temple of God) will deli­uer vp the towne of Babilon, and to make it subiecte to Ie­sus Christ the king of kings, of whom they haue stollen the titles, and occupyed y e Lordships? And that they will restore to the temple of God, and to the holy citie Ierusalem that: whiche they haue stollen from them, and to shedde their bloude, to fight vnder his enseigne, and to builde vp vn­to him his holye citye and to render vnto hym hys orna­mentes and vessells, whereof they haue spoyled him? T. I beleue that his meaning is farre otherwise, and y t he hath determined to get more, for he is not yet full. D. No, nor ne­uer will: but will be alwaies more hungrye and insatiable, he wil neuer yeld vntill the tyme that God himself do come and write the sentence vpon the wall or furniture thereof, [Page 138] as he did to Balthazar y e king of Babilon his predecessor, & vntill the time that he be beaten flat downe by the sword of Dani. v God, & Babilon taken & wonne: according to y e destruction therof fore shewed in the Apocalips. And so shal there neuer be any remedie, but they shall goe on from euill to worse. Apoc. xviii.

VVhat prayers all men ought to make for their princes, to the end that they maye employe that povver vvhich God hath geuen them, to the ayde of the people of God: vvhat a blessing of God it is vpō such people as haue such princes.

22 T. WHat is ther thē to be done in y • meane while? D. It se­meth to me y t I cā not for this presēt geue better coū ­cell, thē to will mē first to praye vnto y e Lorde, y t he will first sturre vp for vs good kings & princes, & to touch their harts, as he hath alreadie touched y e hartes of Cyrus and Darius kinges of y e Medians & of y e Persians, to make thē to come [...]. Chro. 36 [...]. Eso. 1 by y e meanes of y e true Ministers of Iesus Christ, to besiege y t great Citie Babilon, & to destroye y t cruell beast, renoun­cing y e mark of y e same, which they haue so long time borne, & to deliuer y e poore innocentes, and the poore people of God which ar captiue: & to take thē frō y e burning fornace of Ba­bilon, to y e end y e being w tout feare of our enemies we might serue Iesus Christ our king, in all freedome of spirite. But this can not be brought by y e sword, by armes, nor by mans power, but onely by y e cutting sworde of God, which is in y e mouth of Iesus Christ, by whose breath y e wicked & vngod­ly Apoc. xiii Esay. [...]xi ii. Thes. ii. shall be destroyed. Wherfore those people vnto whō God hath geuē so great graces to haue such princes and Lords: which employ their power which God hath geuē thē, to the edifying of y e holy citie of God, & the ruine of Babilon hys enemie, & do submit y e temporal sworde which they haue re­ceaued of God, to y e sword of Iesus Christ & his word, & em­ploy it only to serue him: haue good occasiō to render thākes vnto God for y • great benefit which he hath bestowed vpon them, & to pray vnto him effectuously to cōserue & maintain [Page 139] such princes, & daily to encrease his graces in thē, folowing y e councell of S. Paule in his exhortation which he made to the Christians, concerning y t prayers which should be made in the Church. I do warne you then (saith he) that before all thinges men make request, prayers, supplications & render thankes for all men, for kings and for all others which aro ordeyned in dignitie, to the end that we may lead a peacea­ble life in all feare of God, and honestie, for that is good and agreable before God our Lord.

VVhat Councell they ought to follovve, vvhich haue prin­ces that are tyrauntes and enemyes to the Gospell: and of the preparacion to the crosse for the same.

23 T. THis Councell is very good. But what sayest thou of them which in stead of suche princes, haue cruell ty­rauntes, who being dronke with the cup of the great whore of Babilon, do persecute furiously the poore childrē of God, & do dayly bathe their bloudie sworde in y e bloud of the poore shepe of Iesus Christ? D. Let them pray hartely to God, y t it may please him to appease their rage and fury, and that he will so chaunge their hartes, y t where they haue bene perse­cutours, they may become true feeders of the flocke which God hath committed vnto them, to saue and defend them frō the rage of that cruell beast, whose marke they haue to long worne. In y e meane time, because it is more to be fea­red that manye of the Princes, Lordes, and Magistrates, which haue alreadye tasted of the worde of God, and layde handes to hys worke, shoulde not loose their taste and waxe colde, or shoulde rebell agaynst Iesus Christ in proces of tyme, then there is of hope, according to mans iudgement, and the face which the worlde sheweth vnto vs at thys pre­sent, that those whiche resiste the truth will embrace it, re­ceaue & maintaine it: therfore it is very nedeful in these lat­ter daies y e euery mā make ready himself betime to y e crosse. We haue y e experience herof very plainly in many places.

D. It is not to be maruelled at. For Sathan is continually most busted, about those personages that ar most excellent. And also there is the corruption of our nature, and the fa­uour or feare of men, which peruerteth many. Therfore he y t will be of y e children of God, let him alwayes haue in hys [...]ath. x. Luke. ix minde these worthy sentences of Iesus Christ & of his Apo­stles: Who soeuer wil be my disciple, let him geue ouer himself, & beare his crosse continually after me, and followe me. ii. Tim. iii. Actes. 14 Iohn. 16 And againe, who soeuer will liue holily in Christ, he muste suffer persecution. Againe, men must enter into the king­dome of heauē by many tribulations. The time shall come that he which shal put you to death shal thinke he doth God seruice. For we shoulde greatlye deceaue our selues if y t we should promise to our selues in this world any rest and any estate or peaceable raigne, abounding in all kinde of plea­sures & voluptuousues, and a continual peace, without any trouble or afflictiō. For we may not thinke y t the kingdome of Iesus Christ, is any such raign, for so much as his king­dome is not of this worlde. Therfore he y t woulde haue such Iohn. 6. 19 an one, let him seke it at y t hand of Antichrist: for hys king­dome is in dede of this world. And further, when we are in this sort disposed, I know no better meanes, thē to trauaile with all diligence to vnderstand aryght the will of God, by his word, and to amend our life according to y • rule therof: desiring him earnestlye to geue vs true vnderstanding, & a hart to follow y e same, & then welcome be what he shal send.

Of the studye of holy Scriptures, and of the decree vvhiche vvas made in the Councell of Nice concerning the same: and of the excellencie and authoritye of the Bible, and of his decrees.

24 T. I Find your Coūsell, & your resolution very good, & for my part it semeth vnto me, y t you haue spokē y t which is y e most sure, & our dutie is to enquire w t al diligence, & by al meanes of the will of God, by his holy Scriptures. D. It is the Councell y • Iesus Christ himself geueth, which saith: [Page 141] Search you y t Scriptures: let vs followe y • example of those of Beroa of whom it is spokē in y e Actes of y e Apostles. They Iohn. v. Actes. xvii Rom. xiiii i. Cor. iii [...] were not like to a rable of obstinate persons, which wil not heare at all: nor like vnto a number of vayne people, which lightly do allow al that euer is set forth vnto them, without taking any deliveratiō, and not prouing y t spirites whether they be of God or no: For they heard S. Paule, & then they searched y e scriptures, to sée if it wer so as Paul had taught. And whē they saw y t he spake according to the Scriptures, they receaued his doctrine, as the doctrine of God. T. Here was a good order o proceeding. D. It is certayne, for we must euery one of vs answere for himself in proper person, before the iudgement seate of God, & not for others, nor yet by attornyes. Wherefore if others will not do their duetie, but will tarye for a Councell, let not vs fayle to do our due­tie & to followe better Councell, if we may attaine vnto it. And if a Coūcell be of value, why do we loke for new coun­cells? Why do we not cleaue vnto y e olde, which are holden longe since, & ought to be of greater authoritie then y e new? If we beleue not & obey the auncient Councells, why shall we beleue & obey the new, let vs rather obeye y e Councell of Nice which did ordeine y • there shoulde be none among the Christians but they should haue Bibles, to learne in them y e will of God: thē to y t in the which Antichrist & his Doctors haue forbiddē y e cōmon people to haue them, & to rede thē in their natural tonges against y e determination of y e Christiā Councel. For y e boke of y e Bible is y e true boke of y e true and lawful Councells, and of the eternall ordinaunces of God, wherefore S. Augustine not without good cause sayd, that the authoritie of the scriptures is much greater then all the vnderstanding of man is able to comprehend & know, how subtill, fine and perfect so euer it be: with the which sentence S. Chrysostome agreeth well, saying y t the Councell maye ordeine nothing against the word of God: for what so euer Hom. de perfect. Euang, is ordayned against the holy Scripture, is errour.

Of the true Councels vvhich do excell al the reste in autho­rity & ar the rule by the which al the rest must be examined. 25

T. THose which desire a Councell, shoulde consider in the same, what hath bene ordained by y t auncient Coun­cells, & by the holy Scriptures: to the end y t men may know which is the true doctrine of y e Church, & which men oughte to embrace. D. We haue very good meane to know it, and not to tarye at all for a Councell. For among al the Coun­cells there are chieflye two of y e authoritie, that all the reast are nothing in comparison of them, by whom all the reast must be measured: whose decrees are so plaine, y t there is no doubt in them but y t euery man y t wil be gouerned by them, may vnderstand them: as it is nedefull for al those y t will be saued. T. I did thinke there had bene foure generall Coun­cells, to witte, that of Nice, of Constantinople, of Ephese, and of Chalcedone, the which S. Gregory confesseth to receaue, allowe, and honour, as he doth the foure bookes of the holy Grego, i [...] Registr. di­ [...]inc 5 Gospell. D. I do also confesse that these foure were y t prin­cipall of all those y t were holden sythe the Apostles time: but it semeth to me y t Gregorye doth geue vnto thē more autho­ritie then he ought to do in comparing them to the bookes of the foure Euangelistes. But what soeuer they be, the two of the which I speake, are yet muche more auncient then are those, & of far greater authoritie, for God himselfe in proper person did there preside, & did speake with his own mouth, & dyd there shew his presence in great maiestie, and by great and excellent myracles & tokens. T. In what place and at what time were these Councells holden? D. The first was holden in the Mount Synai, in y e beginning of y e third mo­neth, after y t God had brought y e people of Israell forth of y e land of Egipt. The other was holden in y e country of Iew­ry, namely in the Mount Sion, in the Citie of Ierusalem, at that tyme that our Lorde Iesus Christ was seene vppon earth, and that he did accompanie among men in the forme of man, but they were called and assembled by other meane [Page 143] then the Councells of the Papistes, & holden in other sorte.

Of the authoritie of the princes and of the Popes concer­ning the Councells: and of the Popes tyrannie in that be­halfe, and vvhat aduauntage he hath at this present.

26 T. SEing we are happened vppon this matter of calling & holding of Councells, I would be verye glad if y t thou wouldest declare vnto me some little peece of y e order y t the papistes do obserue in holding of Councells, to the end y t I might y e more easely vnderstand if we should haue as small hope in thē, as thou hast. D. Thou doest aske of me a verye hard thing. For how should I declare to thée y t order of those which haue no order? But y e trouth is y t thou makest y • mat­ter somewhat the more easye, in y t that thou requires [...] of me but a litle. But yet I know not where to finde y • litle y • thou doest aske of me, if it be true which I haue heard of mē wor­thy of fayth, which haue bene present & haue seene y • experi­ence of it. Thou shouldest haue spoken a greate deale more aptly if thou haddest required me to declare vnto thee y e dis­order: the which alwaies they cloke in such sort, that it shall seeme in dede to those that shall beholde the manner of their proceding, that they wil obserue y e order y t hath bene vsed in y e auncient Councells, sauing y t the Popes do alwayes seke to encroche not only vpō y e authoritie of Emperors, kings, & Christian princes, more then y e auncient bishops did: but also vpō the word of god, & the Church. T. In what sort? D. We haue alreadie shewed how the auncient Emperours, kings, & Christian princes did accustom to assemble y e Coū ­cells: not alwayes by tirannie, but by good accorde & agre­ment w t the good Bishops & the true pastors of the Church: now y e Popes do not onely take vnto them authoritie ouer Emperours, kings, & christian princes, such as in time pas­sed they were wonte to haue ouer y e Popes & the other By­shops: But also whē they haue had the meanes. They haue caused Councels to be holdē of their own authoritie in de­spite of y e Emperors & princes▪ whē they did know that they [Page 144] coulde not haue the Emperours and princes at their deuo­tion: as we haue alreadye shewed by example. But now in these daies, because y t the greatest number and y e greatest princes of Christendome are much at the deuotion of the Pope, they do more easely agree together in this poynt, thē those which are of contrarye religion▪ if there be any other which do not well agree with him, he maketh no great ac­compt of them, but estemeth them vnworthye of his Coun­cell. T. Hath he not reason so to do?

Of the manner of the proceeding of the Papistes in their Councels, and of their presidentes, and of the princes Am­bassadours that are sent thither, and of their instructions, and of the practise of the Pope and his, and of the disputa­tions that they haue there.

27 D. THe Councell being appoynted and called, if y e Pope, the Emperour, the Kinges and the Christian princes be not there present, they haue then there their Ambassa­dours & Legates, to represent their persons, they haue also their instructions, to lead them according to that y • euery of thē hath in charge: if y t Pope be not present to preside, then his Legates do preside. These worthy mē, before they come thither, do first aske, as it is mete for such Prophets as they ar at y e mouth, not of y e soueraign god, but of the Pope their God vpon earth: to vnderstand of him how he will haue thē to conclude in y e Councel. For seing y t he is God, he hath al­so his holy spirite agreable to his deitie. And when they are in this sort well instructed of y t will of their God, thē go they on inspired with his sprite, & do put forth to y e Councel those articles which they haue in charge from their God to pro­pone, whose kingdoō & glory they haue chiefly in recōmēda ciō. Whē this is don, thē they dispute of thē in sōe gret haul and ther those y t wil dispute are heard, not to find out ther­by y e truth, & to conclude accordyng to y e same, but to make a countenance to hold some forme of a lawfull Coūcel, in y e which it was accustomed to geue audience to all y t woulde [Page 145] come, as wel of y t laitie as of mē of y e church, for y e cōclusiō y t shall be made, is already determined, in the secret Councell of the God of the earth, whiche gouerneth that Councell by his holy spirit: albeit it he remayn stil enclosed and hiddē in the secret chamber of his brest and harte, and of his authorised Apostles, vntill the tyme conuenient. Then his Legates whiche are the first borne of his children and creatures, de­clare the will of their holy father, and their God. T. Here is a goodly order of procedyng.

Of the prudence that is required in the disputations, of the Councels of the Papistes, and hovve daungerous it is, for those that behonest to be there.

28 D. IN the meane tyme it behoueth those y t dispute, to haue good regarde, in what maner and forme they frame their argumentes & silogismes, and how they propone their disputacions. For if they do not conclude, accordyng to the maner, forme and shape of that conclusion, whiche is alrea­dy made betwene the holy father and his Legats, or if they cast not their conclusion in the same moulde, they will forth with gyue them to vnderstand, that they are not sene at all in that Dialectica and Logicke, whiche is required of them. Wherof it foloweth that either their conclusions are despi­sed, as those of vayne men, whiche speake in the aire, or els if they do somewhat presse or touche the honor of that God, whiche raigneth in that same Councel, the daunger is very great, for those that shall make any such cōclusions. For af­terwards they must nedes of force dispute with fagots, ex­ecutioners, and fire. For that is the last refuge, whereunto these worthy pillers of mother holy Churche haue their re­course, & the God in whom they haue greatest hope, to witte the God of the Chaldees and Persians: as we haue sene by experience in the persons of Iohn Hus, and Hierosme of Pragne, at the Councell holden at Constance, about an hū dred or sixe score yeares passed. For he that agreeth not to the conclusion of that Antichrist, and of his spirite, the same [Page 146] doth sinne agaynste the holy Ghost, wherefore y e sinne is not to be forgeuen, & there may be neither Pardon, nor Indul­gence found, wherby to purge the Church, sauing onely by fire. T. Surely here is a goodly procedyng, and very meete for the Vicar of Iesus Christe and his Apostles.

Of the resolutions and conclusions of the Papisticall Coun­cels, and vvhat personages they are that haue voyces in thē: and vvhat scoole masters the Bishops haue there, & vvhat order they do there obserue.

29 D. NOw when the disputaciō is ended, they must needes come to the resolucion and finall conclusion: whiche is not done openly, nor by the consent of all, but is done in y e Conclaue, in a secrete place, where none are admitted to come, but the Popes Legates, y e Patriarches, the Bishops, and the generals of the Monckes. These do there conclude what soeuer pleaseth them, without hauyng any regarde at all to any thyng, that hath ben debated of, in the Councell, but to that, wherunto euery one of them pretendeth, & those who haue sēt them thether. And for so much as the greatest part in maner of the Cardinals and Bishops, that do there assemble together, to make vp a nomber, are oftētymes but well fed and fatte beastes, shodde and horned, & fatte Asses, & Mules loden with benefices, they must haue some kepers & Muletters to gouerne and to direct them. And bycause they are in such matter much lyke vnto litle children, they haue nede of scoole masters to instruct & teache them, & to supplie their ignoraunce. T. And who be those Asse kepers & mulet­ters that thou speakest of? D. They are often tymes a certayne nomber of hooded Moonckes, and bellye Dy­uines, whiche often tymes are in maner as ignoraunte as their scollers, & as veri Asses, & Mules as the Asses & Mules y t they gouerne & lead, sauing y t the one sorte is more heuyly laden thē y e other w t benefices, & that the one sort haue a litle more sence & knowledge, & the others more farmes & Lord­ships, [Page 147] but their cōsciences are all one. T. Then are these mē to y e Cardinals & Bishops, in stede of y e holy ghost, by whose inspiratiō they speake, being instructed by thē. D. It is true: but this holy Ghost, is but a litle portiō & a depēdance of the vniuersall spirite of y e holy father, of the whiche the Legates are filled. For all these hooded belly diuines, pretend none other thing, but to fish for some Mitre, Crosse, some good be nefice or fatte prebend, wherfore they are there as kitchine dogges, wayting for some soope. These are the dumme dogges of whom the Prophet Esay doth speake. T. Then Esay. x [...]. they do not greatly care whether they do barcke at y e wolfe and byte him: or no. D. They are not there for any such purpose: for their beyng there is onely to flatter, to please and to procure their worldly honor and profite, and to haue their portion of the pray whiche those wolues do gette. And ther­fore they teach the Nouices to set their sayl accordyng to the wind which they seedoth blow, and accordyng to the spirite by the whiche they know that the Legates are gouerned, & those who sent thyther both thē, and the Bishops, to the end that there might be there agremēt of spirites, & that all those particular spirites might agree & resolue with that vniuer­sall spirite which doth there preside, wherfore they haue not at any tyme so great dissention and diuision, but that they may well say in their conclusions: It hath semed good to the holy Ghost and to vs, to witte that holy Ghost, whiche presideth ouer them.

Of the matters of discorde that may be in the Councels of the Papistes: & of the causes of the agreement that is amōg them: & hovv daungerous it is for those that do maintaine the cause of the truth.

30 T. I Thincke for all y t they haue not alwayes the best agre­men: of the world among them. D. Yf there be any dis­corde of opinion among thē, it is not cōmonly for any mat­ter that concerneth the honor of God, the edification of hys [Page 148] Churche, & the saluacion of the Christian people: but rather for their ambitions and honours, preheminences, benefices & particuler affaires. For in maner al those y t come thyther, are assured the one of the other, and there is nothing in the world that they haue lesse care for: then for God, & for the honor of his Church, and the saluation of their owne soules, & of the Christian people, wherfore in this respecte they feare not one an other. For there are seldome any other there, but Scribes & Phariseis, Saduces & Herodiās, Hipocrites and Epicures, Glottons & Dronckardes. Whoremasters & So­domites, Players & Hūters, with such like, very ignoraunt in diuinitie, & of very filthy and detestable life, & should be al excōmunicated, & accursed and depriued from their offices, if they should be iudge according to the rigor of the aunciēt Councels, & of their owne decrees, whiche do excōmunicate Ex concil Carthag Dis. 23. Qui Episcopns, dist, 24, c Nullu [...], & accursse & also iudge al such men vnworthy, of any Eccle­siasticall office. And if there be any other, they are very thin sowen. There are very few among thē, that are accompted for heretiques, as was Ioseph of Aramathie in the Councel of the Iewes, bycause that he would not consent to y e death of Iesus Christ. And if that by aduenture there be any one, from whom their happeneth any litle word to escape, better Hier, in Mich, dist 3, c. eccl, 5 Luke. xxiii. Iohn. vii then frō the rest, how litle so euer it smell of the smoke of the truth, y • man y • shall haue pronounced it, shall be receiued a­mong thē, as Nicodemus was amoong the Iewes, how litle a word soeuer he speake in the fauor of Iesus Christ, he shal be in great daunger either to be banished from y t holy cōpa­nie, & depriued frō his benefices, & that at the least, or els yf nede be: he shall be in daunger of the fire: or els to swallow certaine pilles of a very hard digestion, whiche shall much anoye his stomacke and cause him to loose his voice. And I know that there are in y e world Godly men, who can testifie in dede, how they haue wrought in such matters, not many yeares passed, and can say of all that hath ben done euen to this present in the Councell of Trent, but how so euer it be, [Page 149] if they can not easily agree in their Cōclaue, and that there be any one that will not forthwith & franckly agree to that whiche y t holy father will haue cōcluded there, the Legates dare boldely say to such as shall stand agaynst it: Conclude as you list, but the matter shall passe in that sort: as it is said that the Cardinall of Monte (whiche is now remounted by meanes of the Papacie, and called Pope Iulie) did lately at the Councell of Trent. And bycause he was so faithfull a Legate, and that he hath not onely in that, but in all other thinges shewed him selfe, worthy of the seate in the whiche hee nowe sitteth, it hath framed better with him then with others, whiche haue ben estemed men, of to much ho­nesty to be in such a companie, of whō some haue bene glad to flee, and others haue had gyuen them for theyr recom­pense, drogues of very hard digestion.

Of the practises of the Pope, to haue the determination and conclusions of the Councels, and the places vvherein they are holden, at his vvill and commaundement.

31 T. HEre are very daungerous practises. D. There are yet moe, amōg the whiche there is one chiefly that helpeth to bryng the conclusion to what passe so euer they pretend, whiche is not vnsittyng nor vnmeete for their purpose. T. Whiche is it? D. It is that if the holy father be aduertised, that it is to be feared that such conclusion as he would haue should be hindred (albeit y t be not much to be feared, conside­ring y t which hath ben already spoken) he will forthw t make new Bishops as many & more thē shall nede, to cause y e matter to passe more surely on his side, he will take simple Cu­rates, Chapellains, & simple Mooncks, & he will make them Bishops in hast, the one of Nazareth, the other of Hebron, y • other of Beethlē, & the other of an other title, & all w tout any Bishopricke, they shal come as thicke as flyes, to make a nō ber of voyces: & they shall haue pensions & wages of two or three crownes a moneth, as scolers or souldiers, to enter­tayne [Page 150] thē, there duryng the Coūcell. And if the place be anything suspected & not fitte for his purpose, & that he haue a desire to haue the Coūcell put ouer to some other place, which may be more for his purpose, he wil haue immediatly ready some well learned Phisition if nede require, who shall haue his ready framed reasons, to shewe how that the ayre is not good in y t place, but it is daungerous to such as shall conti­new long there, & that it shall be better to appointe some o­ther place, as it was practised not long ago. T. By that that I can vnderstande, all is done there of purpose. The whole is nothyng els but a very Comedie or playe, in the whiche y e blinde are set vpon highe scaffoldes, to leade the blinde, & to playe their part, accordyng to their scrolle & cedule, which is giuen them. D. Behold here their maner of working.

Of the ignoraunce of the Popishe Bishops, and hovv farre they are of from that, that the vvorde of God and the aun­cient Canons require of them.

32 T. I Find it very straūge, that the Bishops, which be there assēbled, as leaders of the blind, & reformers of religiō, to direct and instruct the poore Christiā people, haue nede thē selues of scoole masters, & other blind guides, to lead thē. D. This doth not agree w t y t name of a bishop, which they bear Actes. xx y e which admonisheth thē y t their office is to be watch mē o­uer y t Lords flock. It is not according to y t admonitiō, which S. Paul giueth thē, saying, take good hede to your selues, & to the flocke, ouer the which the holy Ghost, hath appoynted you watchmē & kepers, to gouerne & fede y t Church of God, which he hath purchased with his bloud. T. They haue their worthy aūswere ready for y t: to witte y t they be not Bishops of y t tyme, nor such as they were to whom S. Paul spake in this passage: and y t they ar not appointed by y e holy Ghost to fede y e flocke of Iesus Christ. D. In y t thou sayest very truth: for they ar feders & Pastors onely to fede thē selues, as wer the false Pastors of whō the Lord cōplayneth by Ezechiell. Exec. iii [Page 151] Wherefore they nede no greate knowledge, nor yet to ob­serue y e Decrees & Canons of Pope Hilarie y e first, of Alexā der the ii. of Innocent the vi. of Boniface the iii. of Gelase, & of Zozine, which haue ordeined that none should be recei­ned into any such office, vnlesse he were very wise & knowē Plat. in vis. Innoc. Rom. Que. 16. dist 36. c. illiterato: &. c. Qui eccle. to be of good life & doctrine, and y t benefices of the Churche should not be giuen, vnder payne of cursing, neither for fa­uor nor gifts, nor to any other, then to men of such learning and life as is required for such offices, and that the shepe of Christ must be kept by their own Pastors, and not by hire­linges and Vicars. T. We should finde a great nomber ac­cursed, if such Decrees should take place.

Of the finall conclusion and resolution of the Councell of the Papistes, and the solempnitie of the daye vvhere­upon it is done.

33 D. BUt we haue left the best of the play vntouched, which afterward is turned into a Tragedie: to witte, y • Ses­sions, in the whiche y t declaratiō of all the conclusiōs which they make in y e Cōclaue, is opēly published in y e Church. T. I pray thee thē go thorow & make an end of y e play. D. The day wheron this is done, all they of y e towne where they are gathered to Coūcell, must make a feast. The Cardinals and Bishops doo assiste al there, in their sieges & seates, clothed with their robes, & decked as it were bridegromes. For it is there y t the play must be plaide in deede. And for so much as they haue had frō els where before y t tyme, & not frō thence, the inspiracion of their holy ghost, & that they be already re­solued in that, that they go about, they do not then at all cal for their belly diuines & hooded men, whom before y t tyme they had for their scoole masters, but in such sort as they cal the rest of the hearers: for there they nede thē not. Notwith­standyng this, to the end that they may giue all men to vn­derstand, that the determinaciōs whiche they haue brought thither, already framed by them without the spirite of God, [Page 152] before that euer they came thyther, do procede frō God, and from his holy spirite, they begyn with inuocation of him, to witte with a faire blasphemie, to oultrage the grace of him, and to renounce Iesus Christ our Lorde, by whom it is gy­uen, for they sing a faire Masse of the holy Ghost, with such ceremonies and so great mockeries, and foolish toyes, that the litle children would be ashamed to see it. For the Masse must be Episcopall, now there are many mysteries and ce­remonies in such Masses, moe then in those that are song by simple Curates and Priestes. Ther is there also harmonie, chauntyng, and great store of Musicke, euen as there was in the solempne feast holden at Babilon, by the commaūde­ment of Nabuchodonosor, to cause hys greate golden I­mage to be honored. There is also a gaye and pompouse procession, in the whiche all the players, that playe in that play, are clothed and disguised accordyng to the partes that Dan. iii they playe. Then do they crye out for the holy Ghost (with whō they would not haue to do notwithstandyng) with ve­ry great desire Veni creator spiritus: to the ende that he may come and inspire them, to do that whiche is all ready done, when this is done, euerye mans opinion is asked, of those thinges whiche are there proponed. Vpon the whiche euery man playeth his part, accordyng as he hath learned it, and aunswereth accordyng to the conclusion, which is al ready made. Those whiche haue better memorie then the rest, and do trust thereunto, pronounce their sentence by hart, the o­thers reede it accordyng as it hath ben gyuen them in wri­tyng, in the cedules that their scoole masters, and instruc­tors haue made for them. In the whiche often tymes there happeneth great inconueniences. For there are some that haue so grose heades, and haue so euill studyed their rolle, y t they are maruelously troubled to reede it a right. And often times it is sene that diuerse of thē haue one kinde of Billet, for so much as one scoole maister hath made them al, & hath geuen verye one theme to hys disciples.

Of the order that the Bishoppes do obserue in geuing their consent in the Councels: and of the ende, and of the cur­ses of the same.

34 T. IF the worst happen, it can not be denied but that ther is great vnitie of spirite among those mē, for so much as they speake all by one spirite. But is there nothing els? D. Those that wil make no long discourse, are discharged by one word of two sillables, and a bowed downe head, to vnderstand placet, which signifieth, it pleaseth mee: For if ther were one syllable more, which should be displicet, signifieng it displeaseth me, the answer would be very perilous. When this is concluded, the holye ghost, without whose councel they haue determined and done all that euer they would, and whom they haue greuously offended and blas­phemed, hath notwithstanding determined and concluded all those thinges, according to their sayinges. Wherefore they must be accompted euen as though they had proceded from the mouth of God. And if there be any one that wyll say agaynst it, he is excommunicated, anathematised, and accursed. Therfore, when their sentence and finall conclu­sion is in this sorte published, they then frame the fourme of their excommunications, anathematisations, and cur­signes, wherewyth they thundder and lighten horriblye a­gainst all their enemies. And not being contented wyth that, to the ende that their thundrynges and lightninges should not seme to be without vertue and force, men must come to fyre and weapons, to mayntaine and defend these holy determinations. T. This maner of proceding is ve­ry meete and worthy of such men as do embrace it. D. Yet notwithstanding it is the very maner & order that they do obserue at this presēt. For it must nedes be that after this feast of Nabuchodonosor, the furnace must be warmed al­so. T. Then I do not greatly maruel, if that Christendome receiue final fruit of such councels, if they be holdē in none other sorte, ther is no great hope to be had of them. D. And good cause why, for their holy ghost is to muche burning, [Page 154] and of fire greatly different from him that was sent to the Apostles, vpon the day of Pentecost. T. Therfore I am wel Actes. ii content that we leaue them, & that we speake of that coun­cel of the which we began to talke, and let vs see what or­der was there obserued, without any more beholding that Tridētine play, so magical & bloody. D. It shal be the best. T. Seing that thou art of that opiniō, I wil not suffer thee to be long at rest, before I return to thee, to hear thee speak of so woorthye a matter. D. I trust by the helpe of God, it shal not be all together without fruit.

The sum of the. 4. Dialogue intituled the resolu­tion of the Councels: to vvit, vvherin the finall resolution of al Christian Councels, and of Christian doctrine is had.

ALbeit y t the little titles which I make of the prin­cipal pointes which are entreated of in this Dia­logue, may sufficientlye aduertise the readers of those matters y t are therin handled, & of the fruit that maye come thereof: yet notw tstanding I haue thought it good to aduertise them in the beginning of euery Dialogue, of the effect of euery of them, cōprehending in general y • which af­terward is debated of in particular. Concerning this pre­sent Dialogue, I do declare in it in what sort god gaue his law to his people, by his seruant Moyses, & to what ende, & how it ought to be vsed, & what councell he helde by meane therof in the mount Synay, & what things ought to be considered therin. And after that I do shew in what sorte thys general Councel doth lead vs vnto y e other which foloweth, being holden & celebrated in the mount Sion & in Ierusa­lem, & how those councels conteine in them al such doctrine as is necessary for the church of God. Wherfore I haue named it The resolucion of the Councels, wherein there is also spoken of the difference & agrement y • is betwene the olde & new testamēnt, the law & the Gospel, & of the ministerye of the one & the other, & of the diuersity and of the vsage of the lawes geuē by Moyses. & of his office, and of Iesus Christ.

❧ The fourth Dialogue intitled, the resolucion of Councels.

Of the charge whiche God gaue to Moyses, and of the au­thority of the lawe by him geuen, and of the whole doc­trine of the Patriarches and Prophetes.

  • Timothe.
  • Daniel.

1 I Am euen now newlye come from reading the se­cond booke of Moyses, in the which he hath writ­ten of this matter, for the which I doo now come to thee: here reasteth no more but that thou instruct me of some principal pointes of the doctrine howe I might make my profit of them, and dayly to encrease in the knowledge of the authority of this great and generall Councell, to the which thou doest referre me. D. All be it that I doubt not at al, but that thou hast made praier vnto God, before thou cōmest to me, to the ende that he might graunt grace both to thee and me so to handle his holy woord, that it might be to his honour and glory, and to our health, as we ought al­wayes to do, when we take in hand so holy a worke: yet for al that it shall be very wel done, that we both together doo cal vpon him, before that we procede anye further in thys matter. T. That is verye reasonable and meete. D. The Lord for his mercies sake heare our prayers. But to our purpose wherof we spake before, thou must first note, that God himselfe gaue charge to Moyses to cal the people together, of whom he had ordained him Pastor and leader, & was serued by him in that vocation and ministerye, as of his legate and embassadour. And albeit that God had alre­dy sufficiently authorised the ministerye of Moyses, by the great tokens and maruels which he had done by his hand, in the presence of all the people of Israel, as well in Egipt, before their comming out of it, as in the wyldernes after it: Yet notwithstanding it pleased him not to speake at that time vnto them by his owne seruaunt and Embassadour [Page 156] Moyses, as before time he was wont to do: but would himselfe in proper person speake in the presence of all the peo­ple, and would that the eares of them al shoulde heare hys voyce, by the which he gaue the ordinances, determinaciōs, decrers, and Canons of this great Councell, whereof we haue already spoken in the first place. For the doctrine of the law is an vnderstanding and knowledge of the will of God, which is as it were borne with man in his creation, in so muche as God hath printed it in hys hart, and hath endued him with that grace, as with others wherewith he hath endued him, when he did create and make him to hys image and likenes. But forsomuch as it hath bene great­ly darkened and blotted by meanes of sinne, which after­ward came into the world: we must of force come to the vnderstanding and knowledge of the Gospel, which is not natural, as is that of the lawe, nor of the benefit of our fyrst creation, as is this here: but of that of the regeneracion, re­dempcion, and iustification, which is reuealed vnto vs by the sonne of God, who brought it vnto vs from the bosome of the father. Therfore thou mayest see here playnlye, who was the author and President of this Councell, and from whō this doctrin which is brought vnto vs to be the rule to try all other doctrine by, which should be set foorth vnto vs in the name of God, is proceeded. For seing that God by this meane did auowe Moyses to be his seruaunt, and for his Prophet and lawful Embassadour: we maye be out of doubt that that lawe and doctrine whiche he brought, is of God: wherfore we may assuredly receiue and esteme it not for mans doctrine, but for the doctrine of God. And for so­much as that doctrine which hath bene authorised and al­lowed in thys Coūcel, by the authority and the very mouth of God, is that same doctrine which in time past al the holy Patriarches did holde and obserue, euen from the begin­ning of the world, and that veri same also which since hath bene embraced and followed by al the holy Prophetes and [Page 157] true seruantes of God: ther is no doubt, but that al the doc­trine which the Churche of God hath followed, euen from the beginning of the world, and hath alwaies bene enter­tayned and continued in the same, by the ministerye of the Patriarches and Prophets, hath bene by that same meane authorised, allowed, and ratified. T. For so muche as it is one very doctrine, ther is no doubt but that the approuing of the one, is also the approuing of the other.

How that the allovving of the doctrine of the olde Testa­ment, is also the allovving of that of the nevv: and hovv the nevv expoundeth the old.

2 D. ANd albeit that that same whyche our Lorde Iesus Christ hath brought vs from heauē, and that it hath bene declared to men, as well by the ministerye of him, as by that of his Apostles and Disciples, and of their succes­sors hath bene agayne authorised and approued in a farre more excellent sort: yet standeth it so notwithstanding that the allowing and ratifieng thereof doth agree with that of the doctrine of the Patriarches and Prophets: for Christe Roma. x. Ephe. ii Act. 2. and hys haue taught nothing contrarye to the same, but haue approued and accomplished it. For this cause Saynt Paule doth cal Christ the end, the performance and fulfyl­ling of the law, and the foūdacion or ground worke of the Prophets and Apostles, & for that cause he speaketh plain­ly before Agrig [...]a saying, that he hath taught nothing, but that whiche Moyses and the Prophetes dyd teache before him. Likewise our Lord Iesus Christ did often times refer the Iewes to the testimony of Moyses, saying that he had Iohn. v, witnessed of hym, and did send and commende them to the scriptures, as it hath bene already declared. Moreouer thys agrement of the law & of the Prophets with Iesus Christ, Math. 17. Luke. 1 [...]. hath bene declared in his transfiguracion, in that that hys Apostles did see hym with Moyses and Elias, & also when he opened the hartes of his Disciples going to Emans, he [Page 158] did alledge the testimonies written of him in the law, in the Psalmes and Prophets: we may then easelye vnderstande by this, that euen as the Prophets, which were sent from God after Moyses, were as it were expounders of the law, and of the doctrine which he had set forth to hys Church, as wel by him as by the Patriarches which were before him: euen so our Lord Iesus Christ and his Apostles haue bene the very true expositors of all the auncient doctrine, & those by whom the last determinacion of al the doctrine of salua­tion hath bene set forth and declared to the Churche. T. I know it certainly so to be.

Of the causes for the vvhich God did allovve and confirme vvyth such authoritie the ministery of Moyses: and hovv hard it is to bring men vnder those lavves, by the vvhich mens liues ought to be gouerned and directed.

3 D. SEing then it is so, and that God woulde euen at once geue such testimony of hys heauenly doctrine, and of the ministery of all the Ministers by whom he would haue it declared to men: it is no maruel if his good pleasure were once to shew him selfe in such maiesty, vnto such a compa­ny, to the ende that no man might iustlye afterwarde take occasion to doubt of that doctrine of God, and to reproche Moyses, as if he had framed these lawes of hys owne head, which he had brought to the people of Israell, and that he should haue made them beleue that he had receaued them of God, as many Heathen lawmakers haue made theyrs to be beleued, and as manye false Prophetes haue done of their drcames and false doctrine. For they did well knowe, that men were of such nature, that they would not willing ly become subiect, but onelye vnto him whom they thought to be greater then them selues: wherfore hardly wil a man make him selfe subiect to a man, to lyue according to hys wyll and pleasure, if he be not thereunto enforced. If it be done but by constrainte, it is but during the time that he is [Page 159] the weakest. For as soone as he can finde anye occasion to cast that yoke from him, he wil not misse to doo it with all his power. T. We see dayly experience sufficiently of this. For how cā one submit himself willingly vnto a mā, whō he estemeth to be his fellow, and equal to himselfe, and not his master and superior, when he wil not willingly submit himselfe to God his Creator, his Master, his Lord and Soueraigne Prince, ne yet vnto his lawes? D. Thou mayest haue a iudgement by that: but albeit that man wil not willingly yelde himselfe subiect, neither to God, ne yet to men: Yet notwithstanding if he must needes haue a Lorde, and to lyue accordinge to the wyl and minde of an other, and not of himselfe: yet is hys hart so cruel and stubburne, that he thinketh it greater dishonour to submit himselfe to such as he is himselfe, then to his superiour, and to man, then to God. On the other side, whatsoeuer darkenes is fallen into the vnderstanding of man, by meane of synne, yet for all that ther remaineth a certayne impression of the know­ledge of God, in the hart of man, which compelleth them al to acknowledge that ther is a souerain and diuine power, vnto the whiche it muste needes bee that euerye man be subiect, wyll he, nyll he, and that this soueraigne power, is God eternal. Wherfore ther is none, howe wicked so euer he be (if he be not at all more brutall then the brute beastes) that is not somwhat moued when the authoritye of God is alledged, and that feareth not punishment, when it is geuē him to vnderstand that God hath commaunded or forbid­den that which is proponed, if he say or do the contrarye: & chiefly when we haue a good opinion, & that we thinke wel of them that speake vnto vs. T. It is very true.

Of the faynings and subtilties that the Pagan lavv makers, and the false prophets haue vsed, to authorise their lavves and doctrine, vnder the cloke of Gods name.

4 D. FOr that cause Zoroaster the lawmaker of the Bactri­anes and Persians, gaue them to vnderstand, that he [Page 160] had receiued of the god Oromasis, those lawes which hee gaue vnto them. Licurgus the Lacedemonian law gyuer, did the like, fathering his vpon the god Appollo: & Minos the law geuer of the Cretians, which now are called Can­dians, did fayne to haue receiued hys of the god Iupiter. Numa Pompilius for the like cause, did fayne hymself al­so to haue conference with the Nimph and goddesse Aege­ra, and that he receiued of her the lawes which he gaue to the Romaines, chiefly those that touched the religion. [...]a­molris the law maker of the Scythiens, hath also reported his to be of the goodesse Vesta. And Mahomet, by whom the Turks haue bene seduced, which haue had partly their originall from the Scythyans, how manye finesses he hath vsed to authorise his Alcoran, and making them beleue, that it was sent from heauen? And all the false Prophetes and seducers haue not inuēted a litle. And the Romish An­techrist, companion to Mahomet, hath not he obserued the same order, not onely to geue so much authority to his tradicions, as to the word of God, and to cause them to be re­ceiued for the woorde of God: but also to make him selfe Iudge of the holy Scriptures, and of their meaninges, vn­der shadow of the promes which Iesus Christ did make to Iohn. 14. 15. 16. his Apostles, to send vnto them the holy ghost, and to direct and gouerne his church by hym, as thoughe that: which is spoken of the true church of Iesus Christ, and of the Mini­stery therof, did appertaine to that Antechrist and to hys Ministers? Their conclusion is euen as good, as if a man would conclude in this sorte: The holye ghost was promi­sed and geuen to the Patriarches, Prophetes, & to the true Church of Israel, that therfore it must follow that Ierobo am and hys Priestes, and Achab, Iesabel, and their false prophets were inspired and directed by the spirite of God, and Annas and Cayphas, the Scribes and Pharyses, and all the councel, and the Synagoge of the Iewes, which did condemne Iesus Christ and his Apostles: & that Micheas, [Page 161] Elias, Iesus Christ, and his Apostles, which stoode against them, being so small a number, against so great a multi­tude, were heretickes. For these men had the Kinges and Princes on their sides, and did supplye the place and seate of the true Patriarches and prophets, vnto whom, and by whom the promesses were made by God, and were in dede of their own race and blood. Al be it that the Pope hath no such coulour as they had, he hath notwithstanding armed himselfe with the authority of God, as they did. For he did wel know, that if men had not had such perswasion of him and of his doctrine, he and his shoulde neuer haue growen to such authority, as they are come vnto. T. That is not to be doubted.

Of the testimonies that God hath geuen to Moyses of hys vocation, and how necessary it vvas.

5 D. NOwe it is not so with Moyses, as it is wyth these men: for Moyses was not onely auowed by God by word, and by his own authoritye, but God did geue vnto him letters and seales: and this not onelye once or twyse, Exo. xix. but often times. And to the end that he would leaue the les occasion to doubt, either of the letters or of the seales, hee came in proper person to ratify al that by his own mouth: and that not in secrete, or els before two or three witnesses onely, which notwithstanding ought to haue some autho­rity, but before the eyes of all the people, which were in no small number. For before that time in their comming out of Egypt they were about sixe hundred thousand men, va­liant Exod. xii and able to weare weapons, beside the women and children, and a great number of other people. T. Then was ther a great number of witnesses. D. Yea, and that of such witnesses as did see the thing with their own eyes, and did heare it with their own eares. If Moyses had come to the people, and should haue sayd that God had spoken to hym and that he had geuen him the lawe, which he presented to [Page 162] the people in Gods name, ther is no doubt but y • he shoulde haue found mockers and euill speakers, and a great num­ber of rebels and Mutiners in so great a people, to haue scoffed at Moyses, and to haue mutined & rebelled against him, saying that he had bene a lyar, and a craftye and de­ceitful man, which would couer him selfe with the name & authority of God, to erect a tyrannye ouer that people, and to deale with them according to his pleasure. T. It is not vnlike by that that happened, after that this was done: for if Core, Dathan, and Abiron with their adherentes (which Numb. xvi were thē selues witnesses of al these maruels, by the which God did authorise the ministerye of Moyses) durst to con­spire and rebell againste Moyses and Aaron, and did finde such a number of followers, after suche an authorising of their voeation: what woulde haue become of them, if that God had not so armed them with his authority?

Of the declarations and aduertismentes that God did gyue to the people of Israel, before he gaue them hys lavv by Moyses.

6 D. ANd therfore God did first commaund Moyses to de­clare vnto the people the workes which he most marueilously had done, as well in the lande of Egipt, as in the Exod. xix going forth out of the same, by the which he did shewe hys great power, in ouerthrowing the force of the Egiptians, through his wrath, and deliuering his people from their ti­ranny through his mercye: to the ende that they might the better vnderstand of what power he was to punishe those whiche shoulde rebell agaynste his lawe, and to shewe mercy vnto those that should submit them selues thereun­to: and how woorthye he was both to be feared and loued, and in what reputacion they oughte to haue his seruaunt Moyses, by whose hand he had done these greate woorkes, and afterward to cause his people the more to loue hym, & the better to encourage them to heare his woord, & to obey [Page 163] his law, he doth renew the auncient promises, which were made to them and to their fathers, and more strongly doth confirm and establish them, declaring vnto them the great honour, the great profyt, and the great wealth that should happen vnto them, if that they did obey their God, & serue him, according to his wil and lawe. After that he had made all these declarations, he then gaue them to vnderstande how he was determined to shewe him selfe, and to speake vnto them, and to geue vnto Moyses in their presence hys law, according to the which he will be honored and serued, and then he declareth the cause and the reason why he wyl do it: To the end (sayth he) that the people doo heare whilest I speake to thee, and also that they beleue thee for euer. T. These are godly admonitions.

VVhat tokens God gaue of his presence in the mount Sy­nay, vvhen he did geue and publish hys lavv.

7 D. IT cannot then be sayde hers, that these thinges were fayned, and that Moyses did vniustlye make them be­leue that God did speake vnto him, and gaue him that law Exod. xi [...] whiche he brought to the people, and yet that there was no suche thing at all. For the people did see the cloude in the which God spake vnto Moyses, to declare therby his maie­sty: To wyt, that he is the chiefe King and Prince of hea­uen and of earth, vnto whom al creatures must obey. And forsomuch as God doth more manifest his presēce, his glo­ry, his power, and his maiesty, in the heauen & in the ayre, then in any other of his creatures, he tooke the cloudes for to declare his maiesty and soueraigntye that he hath ouer al. But he was not yet contented with this, but before he would discend into the mount Synay, in the thick & darck cloude, he caused the thunder to burst out in a marueilous sorte in the ayre, whose crackes were heard al ouer, & made a horrible and a fearfull noyse. He did also sende foorth the great lightnings, in such sorte, that at the ayre was lighted [Page 164] and was fylled with great fyres, which were sene in al pla­ces very terrible. On the other syde, the people did see all the Mountayne in a smoke, as it had bene of a great fyre, or of a burning furnace. They hearde also the cornet and the trumpet found, which did ring with a marueilous violēce, & made a very feareful noyse, in such sort, as ther was nei­ther great nor small that was not wonderfully afrayde, & did not tremble with great horrour, and was not as it wer halfe dead for feare. All that whyle the whole mountayne was couered with the great cloud, in the which God spake with a mighty voice in the hearing of al the people, and did pronounce from his own mouth the verye same woordes which he had written with his owne finger in the two ta­bles of stone, the which Moyses did afterward bring down from the mountayne of Synay, and of the talke whiche he had with God in the same hyll.

Of the signification of the signes vvhich God dyd geue in geuing his lavv, and of the reasons vvhy, and hovv much they are agreable vvith the nature of the lavv.

8 T. WHat was y e meanyng of al that? for it was not done without cause. D. It serued for the more strong cō ­firmation of the thinges whereof we haue already spoken: for there was none of them but that they did knowe ryght well that there was neyther illusion nor enchauntmente in those thinges, and that they were done by no power of man, but of God: wherefore, they serued againe as a new seale for the confirmation of the ministerye, and vocation of Moyses, & of the maiesty and power of God to saue hys, & to destroy his aduersaries: for by that he did declare that he was the God of nature, and that he did dispose of her e­uen as it pleased him, and that he dyd all that he woulde as well in heauen as in earth. And therfore he would him selfe euen from his own mouth preach vnto his people: he would also ring to the sermon that he would make vnto them, and [Page 165] prepare them and make them hedefull to heare him. He had then for his belles, & for his Musike, the Cornet and trum­pette, to cause them to heare his voyce, and to awaken thē, which things did very well agree with the nature of y e law. For by the same the sentence of the cursse of God is pronoū ced Deut. 27 vpon all those that shal not obserue it euen to the vtter­most iote.

Of the vsage of the lavv, to lead men to Iesus Christ, by the knovvledge of their synnes.

9 T. THen is there none but he is accurssed, for how may we obserue and fulfill the law thorowly, when we are not able perfectlye to accomplishe the leaste pointe con­teyned therin? D. All be it that it is euill as thou sayest, yet doth it not folow but that it profiteth vs much: for it dothe condemne vs, and causeth vs to seke our absolutiō, hauing recourse to the grace and mercy of hym who condemneth vs by the same, to absolue vs afterward, and to deliuer vs from the condemnatiō which we haue deserued. She decla­reth vnto vs the cursse, to teache vs to knowe the wrath of God against sinne, and to stirre vs vp to seeke that seede of Ro. [...]. 4. 7. Gen. 12. 22 Galat. xxx blessing which is in Iesus Christ, by whō that cursse is wi­ped away. T. They haue not a little profited that haue learned this knowledge.

Of the cause vvherfore God vvould make the people of Is­rael afraide by those signes vvhich he gaue in the mounte Synay.

10 D. ANd for so much as the hart of man is high, proud, and stubburne, and can not humble himself vnder the mighty hande of God, nor acknowledge the power and the Maiesty of him, and his wrath against sin, & how much he is to be feared & redoubted, his wyll was to declare these things by such tokens. For if the sound of the thūder, which is called the voyce of God, be so horryble and fearefull, that [Page 166] there is none but is moued and afrayd with it: and if y e ma­terial lightning be so violent, that nothing is able to resyste Pl. 18. 104. it, nor to stand before it, let vs then thinke how horrible and feareful the voyce of God shall be when he shall speake to y e wicked in his anger, and in his wrathe, and when he shall Mat. 7. 25. say vnto them: goe your way, and depart from me ye wor­kers of iniquitie: goe into euerlasting fire, whiche is prepa­red for the Deuill and his Angels. The same shal be a terri­ble thunder which shal cast so exceding a horrible lightning, y • no one of those y • it shall smite, shall be able to abide it, but that he shal be thrown hedlong into the bottomeles pitte of hell. It shall lighten a fyre which neuer shal be quenched: for Esay. 66. Mar. 9 Deut. 4 Heb. xii Psal. xviii. Gene. 19 the Lord is a cōsuming fyre which wil burne and consume all those which would not walke in his lighte. It is he that casteth the great flames of fyre, and the burning coales out of his mouth when he speaketh, as those of Sodom and Go­morre haue already proued. Then, whosoeuer he be, that wil not heare his fatherly voyce, by the which he declareth vnto vs his wil in so louing a sort, he shal be constrained to heare that thundring, roaring, and firy voyce, which maketh the the heauen and earth to ringe and tremble, of the which the thunder is but a very litle sound, and a very soft expression. T. Seyng it is so, he is a Lord that speaketh very mightely, and is greatly to be feared.

Of the trompet vvhich did sound in the mounte Synay, & of the meanyng therof and of the blessings and cursings of the lavv, and of the publishing of the same.

11 D. IN like sort this cornette & that trompet, was a signe and a token of that great trompet which shall sounde at the last day, and shall cause the earth to open, and shall Math. xxv. i. Cor. 15 i. Thes. v. Iohn. v. come euen to the eares of the deade, which are rotten in the dust of the same, euen from the beginning of the world, and shall call both the quicke and the deade to iudgement. For euen as the people were assembled together in the mounte [Page 167] Synay by the trompet that there dyd sound in like sort in the latter day, al shalbe gathered together by the sounde of Leui. 23 the trumpet of that great God, to be iudged according to that law which then he gaue: We maye see the like of the cornets and trumpets which they vsed to sounde in Israel in the yeare of Iubile, and when they shoulde gather the people together to heare the law of God. Then when thys last trumpet shal sound, of the which these same haue bene euen as figures, euery man shal know of what valewe the blessings are which he hath promised to those which should obey vnto his lawe, and also the cursses with the which he threatneth al the rebels and wicked ones. For after that he had spoken on the height of the mountayne out of the mid­dest of the smoke, and that he had geuen the lawes, the de­terminations, the decrees, and the canons of thys great councel which he held with hys people. He gaue also the or­der and maner of his blessinges and cursses, and maledic­tions, which afterward likewise wer published in great so­lemnitye and maiestye, For he commaunded that the one Deut. 27 part of the twelue tribes of Israel should go vp to an hyll, to reherse the blessinges: and the other shoulde stande vpon an other to rehearse the cursses, and that the whole multi­tude should be in a valley, to subscribe and binde them sel­ues openly and solemnly to the obseruance of the same, in the which obligation we al ar cōprehended. T. Thys is not an obligation which a man may discharge with a summe of money.

Of the last and general iudgement of God, and of the sen­tence that shall be geuen ther, vvithout respect of person, as vvel vpon the faithful, as on the infidels.

12 D. THerfore it behoueth vs to haue good regarde to our doings in this behalfe: for these are no playes of litle children, nor lyghtnynges papall, whiche are but in parch­ment and paper, and in yncke, and in waxe, and in leade. There shall bee there an other assistaunce then is that [Page 168] of the Councell of Trente. There shall bee there an other kynde of songe and melodye then in the feaste of the I­mage of Nabuchodonosor, and in the Popes sessions, the Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, and generals of the Monkes, shall not be set there to geue the last sentences, nor to pro­noūce the condēnations, the cursses & maledictions against the very disciples of Iesus Christ: nor yet the Emperours, kings, Princes, & their Embassadours, to execute the iudge ments of these here: but al these together shal appeare there to be thēselues iudged euery mā according to his workes, Gal. vi by the which they haue declared what faithe they haue had in Iesus Christ. Iesus the very sonne of God to whom the father hath geuen all power and all iudgement, he shall be Math. 25. 24. Iohn, v. there set in the glorious throne of this maiesty, with all hys heauenly Angels, and all his Patriarckes, Prophetes, and Apostles, to hold a Councel for to heare the last appellatiōs and to reuoke al the vniust sentences that haue bene geuen against his, and against his truth, which they haue folowed by the wicked decrees and Councels of tyrantes and of his aduersaries, and condemne those which haue condemned y t innocents, and to absolue such as haue bene vniustly con­dempned. It shal be he himself that shal pronounce the sen­tences, the blessings and the cursses, by the which the great beast, and the great whore sitting vpon the same, & al those which haue borne the marke of the beast, and those whiche haue bene dronken with the wyne of her fornication, shall Apo. 17. 18 be condempned, and the innocentes deliuered, whose bloud she hath shedde through the ayde of the red Dragon: in the which she hath died her garmēts of purple and scarlet. Thē Apoc. xvii, the beast and all his false Prophetes and adherents, shal be throwen into the deepe pitte, and into the fornace of fyre and brimstone, which shall neuer bee quenched: which shall greatly differ frō that in the which this cruel beast did roste Apoc. xx and burne the children of God, in a fyre which is forthwith consumed into ashes, wherefore we haue no occasion so to feare it: nor yet the executioners which light it, least y e thyn­king [Page 169] to flee it, wee fal into that euerlasting fyre, and be de­liuered into the handes of the hellish tormentors, to be tor­mēted with them and by them euerlastingly, and to be shut out from the company of this great kyng Iesus, and from all his heauenly Courte, to dwel eternally in the kingdome of darkenesse, in that hellish Court and company, so curssed and execrable.

Of the sanctification and preparacion that God did require of hys people, vvhen he vvould giue them his lavv, & of the same that is required of vs to prepare vs to receyue hys vvoord.

13 T. SEing that it is so, we ought then to geue good eare to vnderstande what is commaunded vs in that law, Exo. xix. and to heare it with great honour and reuerence. D For that cause God before he discended into the mount, com­maunded that his people shoulde bee sanctified to receiue him, and that they should prepare them selues twoo dayes before, and that they shoulde washe their clothes, and that they shoulde come neare no woman, wherein he declared that al vnclēlynes and filthines abhorred him: & y • to draw neare vnto him, and to heare and vnderstand his voyce, it was requisite to bring thether a hart and a minde sepera­ted and free from al earthly thinges, and wholye dedicated to him, and rapte in him. For he hath no respecte to apparel, but by his outwarde cleanlynes and honestye, he would giue vs to vnderstande what the inwarde ought to be, and would vs to vnderstand that if a foule and a filthy garmente doo offend and loath a man, then by greater reason hath he iust occasion to be offended with our hartes, & with out filthy souies and consciences, being vile and infected with sinne. And for so muche as they be suche, and that the law was geuen to warne vs thereof, and that we ought to seeke for our cleannes in him, he commaunded that cere monie. In like sorte, because that mariage is his ordināce, [Page 170] and that it is honorable in al estates, and the bed vndefiled: we may not therfore thinke that he condemned it when he Gene. 12 Math. xix. Heb. xiii i. Cor. vii did forbid the people to be conuersant with their wyues for the space of two daies. For if it wer not holy and honest, he would no more suffer it in other dayes, then in those daies: but in shewing vs that it was expedient for vs to abstaine euen from those pleasures which were lawfull, and whych he himselfe doth permit vnto vs, when we will be occupied in meditaciō and prayer, and in the hearing of his word, & in other holy thinges, to the end that we should be wholye voide & separate frō al earthly thoughts & affectiōs, to y • end y • thei might wholy giue them selues vnto him: he giueth vs perfectly to vnderstand how much more necessarye it is to abstaine frō al vnlawful pleasures, & frō al filthynes & vil­lany. It is also y • cause why that S. Paul doth permit those i. Cor. 7. that are maryed to refrayn from lying together for a cer­tayne time, so that it be by the consent of both the parties, to exercise them selues in fasting and prayer.

Of the fastinges and abstinences, and of the differences of daies and meates vvhyche they obserue in the Popish, churche, and of their originall and foundation, and of the defaulte that therin is.

14 T. I Do thynke also that for the lyke purpose it was or­dayned in the olde tyme to faste the Aduente, the Lente, the Vigiles, and the fowre Imbers, and to ab­stayne from certayne meates the Fridayes and Sater­dayes, for to dispose and prepare men throughe absti­nence the more willinglye to heare the woorde of GOD, and to prayer, and to the communion of the Sacra­mentes, as well on the Sondayes, as on other holye dayes, and chiefely on the moste solempne dayes: as on Christ­mas daye, Easter, and Whitsondaye. D. It is lyke to bee true. But al beit that it maye bee alledged that thys was ordayned for a good entente, yet notwithstandyng there [Page 171] was a greate faulte in so doyng, because that those which were Authours of suche traditions were so hardye, not onelye to geue suche lawes to the Churche, by their owne authoritie wyth oute the expressed woorde of GOD, but also to make them perpetual, and by them to put difference betwene daye and daye, and betwene one meate and the other, and to make the Churche subiecte to those obser­uations whiche are more then Iewyshe, and those whiche haue added vnto it the opinion of deserte, and haue bounde them vppon the payne of deadlye synne, yea and haue done worse: for they haue defaced and blotted the benefytes of Iesus Christ, causyng men by these meanes to truste and to put the hope of theyr saluation in meates and dayes, and in their workes, where they oughte one­lye to put it in Iesus Christ.

Of the sobrietie, abstinence, and honestye that is requyred of the Christians in their assembles in the Church.

15 T. ANd if that those men haue commytted a faulte on their parte, oughte not we also on our syde to take good heede, least that we takyng in hande to amend thys faulte, shoulde fall into an other extremitye, as many do euen at thys day? D. You saye verye well: for if we thinke the superstitious abstinences of the Papistes worthye of blame, let vs not thynke to correcte them by gluttonye and dronkennesse and other dissolutions: but let vs ende­uoure oure selues to brynge them to a true sobrietie, ab­stinence and Christian chastitie. Wherefore at what so­euer tyme, and when wee shall eyther take in oure handes the booke of the holye Scriptures, thereby to vnder­stand of the wyll of GOD, or elles that we come together in the Church to heare hys voyce, by the holy Ministery of hys worde, or els to communicate and be partakers of hys holy sacraments, and of the prayers which are there made, [Page 172] we oughte to goe with no lesse reuerence, ne yet to prepare oure selues in none other sorte, then yf we shoulde heare Actes. ii God wyth hys owne mouthe speake out of the cloude, and out of the greate smoke whiche was in the Mounte of Sy­nay, and that we dyd heare the greate thunders, and the lyghtninges that were then sene. For euen the same God whiche then dyd there speake, is euen he that speaketh at thys present daye in hys Churche, and shall iudge vs ac­cordyng to that lawe whiche he hathe published there. And albeit that he speaketh vnto vs nowe more familiarly and more louynglye then he then dyd: yet notwythstandyng let vs not thyncke that he is of lesse power and force, then he then was. But in that that he vseth such gentlenes and benignitie towarde vs, the punishment shall be so muche the greater vppon vs, yf we doo abuse the same. Yf we wyll vnderstande howe wee oughte to guide and gouerne oure selues, wee muste cleane to the resolution of thys Councell, and to the decrees and ordinaunces whyche we haue receyued.

Of the Councell that vvas holden in the Mounte Syon, and of the conference of the same vvyth that vvhyche vvas holden in the Mounte Synay: and of Moyses, and of Iesus Christe, and of the Ministery of the lavve, and of the Gospell.

16 T. THys is a goodlye Councell, and of greate autho­ritie: but thou saydst that there was yet an o­ther in the lande of Chanaan and of Iudea, and in e­speciall in the Mounte of Syon by the verye Sonne of GOD. I woulde bee verye gladde that thou wouldest declare vnto mee also what that was. D. That Coun­cell dothe euen so muche excell the other, as Iesus Christ He [...]. iii dothe excell Moyses, and the Master of the house, the ser­uaunte. For thoughe that GOD hym selfe dyd speake in proper person in bothe, yet notwithstandyng he hathe [Page 173] shewed hym selfe this seconde tyme in a sorte muche more authentique and more excellent, more amiable and agre­able to the weakenesse of mans nature: then euer he dyd synce the beginnyng of the worlde. For when he shewed himselfe in the mounte Synay, the people dyd not see his Deut. 4. Exod. xi [...] Hebr. ii face nor shape, nor dyd see or heare anye thing, but suche as were horrible and fearefull. It was not lawfull for them to doo so muche as to come to the mountaine, or to touche the vttermoste parte thereof, wyth out daunger of deathe, and to bee stoned or striken thorowe wyth ar­rowes, were it man or beaste. Therefore, the people be­ynge greatlye amased and afrayde, desired Moyses to be Exod. xx Eeu. xxviii as a meane betwene GOD and them, and to declare vn­to them hys wyll and pleasure as hys Embassadour, to that ende that they moughte heare no more that voyce of GOD so horrible and fearefull: for they thought that they coulde not heare it agayne, but that they shoulde all dye, and dyd muche maruell that euer they coulde heare it with oute deathe. Wherefore GOD knowyng the weakenesse of hys people, dyd promise them to sende them a Prophet, euen oute of the middest of their brethern, lyke vnto Moy­ses, into whose mouthe he woulde put his worde, and by Deut. xviii the same he woulde cause them to heare his voyce. This Prophete, accordyng to the testimonye of Sain [...]t Peter, is Iesus Christe oure Lorde, of whome the Father hym­selfe dyd saye: This is my welbeloued sonne in whome I Actes. iii. Math. 3. 1 [...] haue set my whole delighte, heare hym. And for that cause the Apostle saythe writyng to the Hebrewes, that God hath Heb. i in tyme passed oftentymes, and in sundrye sortes spoken to our Fathers by the Prophetes, but in these latter dayes he hath spoken to vs by hys own Sonne, and making com­parison of thys manifestation whiche was made by oure Sauioure Iesus Christe, wyth that of the mounte of Sy­nay. Truely (sayth he) you are not come to the mountayn whiche moughte bee touched, nor to burnyng fyre, nor yet Heb. xi [...] [Page 174] to darkenesse and myste, and vnto tempest, neyther vnto the sounde of a trompette and to the voyce of wordes: the whiche those whiche dyd heare it, refused that the commu­nication should be addressed to thē any more: for they could not endure that which was commaunded. If a beast touch the mountayne, he shall bee stoned or elles stricken thorow wyth a darte. And so terrible was the sighte that appeared, that Moyses sayde, I feare and quake: but you are come to the mounte Syon, and to the Citie of the lyuyng God, the heauenly Ierusalem, and to the companye of manye thou­sandes of Aungels, and to the congregation of the firste borne, which are written in the heauens, and to God which is iudge of all: and to the spirites of iust and perfecte men, and to Iesus Christ the mediatoure of the newe Testamēt, and to the sprinckled bloude of whiche declareth better things, then the bloud of Abell. See y t you despyse not him that speaketh: for if they escaped not, whiche despysed hym that spake on earth, much lesse shall we escape yf we turne away from hym that speaketh from heauen, whose voyce then shooke the earth. T. It semeth to me that these wordes conteyne a goodly conference of the Ministery of the lawe and of the Gospell, and I haue a great desyre to heare it.

Of the manifestation of God in Christ.

17 D. THen where as the people saw nothing at that tyme but fyre, and smoke, and greate darcknes, whiche letted them from seyng both the Sunne and the Moone, & Deut. 4. also the heauens, God hath shewed himselfe to vs in Iesus Christe his sonne in mans shape, in our owne fleshe: For it is he y t is the very Image of God, and y t very forme of hys substance & the bryghtnes of hys glory. It is he y t is the true Iohn i [...]. Tim. iii Seb. i. Mal. iiii Iohn. viii Sonne of Iustice, and the onely lyghte of the worlde, by whome all mystes and darckenesses are chased away, euen those whiche let vs to see GOD. And where as then the peo­ple [Page 175] durste not come to the foote of the Mountayne, howe perfecte and howe well prepared so euer they were, to re­ceyue the Lorde, wee haue nowe accesse, euen to the verye throne of hys Maiestye, by Iesus Christ our Lord, through whome it is geuen vs, not onely to come vnto hym, but al­so Heb. iiii to touche & embrace hym, for the sanctification which i. Cor. 6 Dan. ix wee haue receyued of hym, that is the holye of ho­lye ones, is in deede of other vertue and efficacye then was that of Moyses towardes the Israelites. In the steade of that horrible voyce and of the Trompettes, and of the thunders, whiche dyd shake the heauen and also the earthe, whyche made the Mountaynes to tremble and rynge, whiche accordyng to the testimonye of Dauid, is Psalm. xxix of that force that it breaketh and teareth downe the Ce­ders of Libanus, and maketh them to leape lyke Calues, and the Mountayne it selfe lyke younge Vnicornes, and it maketh the greate floudes of water to come, and also to returne, and it cutteth a sunder the flames of fyre, and launceth them forthe as dartes, and maketh the wylder­nesses to shake, and dothe vnclothe the forrestes, and ma­keth the Mountaynes to breake, and the Hyndes to Calue: Wee heare that sweete and louynge voyce of the chylde Iesus the Sonne of GOD, the true Imma­nuell, Math. 1. 2. Esay. vii. Luke. ii Math. xi. by whome we maye lawfullye saye: GOD is wyth vs, wee heare that amyable voyce whiche saythe: Come vnto me all ye that are laden and weeryed, and I wyll case you, and you shall fynde reste to youre soules. Take my yoke vpon you, for it is easye and lyght. Wee heare that sweete voyce that comforteth all those whyche are poore and myserable whiche come to hym, and de­clareth to all poore and wretched synners, the grace, Esay 61 Luke. 4 Heb. v Mat. 27. and the mercye of GOD, and the forgeuynge of syn­nes: whiche prayeth wyth lamentynge and teares for poore synners. Yea, euen for hys verye ennemyes, and is hearde, and doth reconcile vs to God. It is he that hathe broughte to vs from heauen the resolution of the greate [Page 176] Councell of God, to the whiche all the Patriarches & Pro­phetes haue consented and agreed. The which he hath con­firmed, Heb. iii Rom. 3. 5 not only by signes and miracles, which were much more excellent then euer were those that were wroughte by the handes of Moyses: but also by his deathe, by his resur­rection, and by his ascension: and laste of all by the holye Ghost whome he sent to his Apostles and disciples, in wonderfull maiestie, in the likenes of firy tongues, and with a founde from heauen, as it had bene of a mightye wynd, Mat. 27. 28. Luke. 24 [...]cte. 1. 2. 3. which was sodenly risen, but more louyng thē the fire and whirle windes which were perceaued and sene in y e Mount of Synay. T. The difference is very great.

Of the last seale, and of the laste declaration and confirmati­on of the doctrine of God, and of the nature and vertue of the holy Ghost.

18 D. IT is he y t was the great seale of the whole eternal pur­pose and Councell of God, by whom he declared with greater authoritie thē euer he did, how he did put his church in lawfull & ful possession of his holy spirit, with signes and testimonies declaring his nature & vertue. For it is a wind, Iohn. iii. whose spring and rising none doth know, whose being and nature is vnsearcheable, who by his power beateth downe all those that resiste him, and pourgeth and refresheth the soules and consciences, and geueth life, comfort and health to all those which geue ouer thē selues vnto him. It is a fire which lighteth, which pourgeth, which doth warme & heate the hartes, and the tonges of the chosen of God, which pro­ueth the faythful and the vnfaythfull, and consumeth al the reprobates: wherfore in vayne do the enemies of God con­spyre agaynst thys mightie winde: in vayne do they kindle their fires and lighten their fornaces to quenche and put out this diuine fyre: in vayne doe they holde their Coun­cels to blotte out the decrees of thys eternall Councell of [Page 177] GOD sealed with such a seale. For when we haue Iesus Christ the very sonne of God, which was sent vnto vs frō Iohn. 1. 6. the bosome of the Father, we haue hym that bringeth the true seale and printe, and the very marke of God, with the which he is signed and allowed of the father, to witnes vn­to vs that he did sende him vnto vs, as he vpon whom we ought onely to dwel. And euen (as he is allowed by God his father, as is that which is allowed by the authoritised signe and seale of a prince) so doth he also marke with the seale of his holy spirit al those which are marked with y e seale of his eternall election, which is sure, according to the testimonye ii. Tim. ii. of Saint Paule. And therfore he saith that the Lord dothe know all those that are his: and that it is he that doth streng then vs, and it is he that hath annoynted vs, and marked vs, and hath geuen vs in our heartes the earnest of the holy Ghoste, for the daye of oure redemption: Wherfore, euen as the children of God be marked with thys marke and seale, euen so can they not denye hym whose sygne and seale they ii. Cor. i. Ephe. 1. 4. beare, but for their parte also do seale and alowe the truthe of God, in receiuing hym which he dyd send with his seale. Seyng then that it is so, we may not alledge the multitude, Iohn. 3 to take away the authoritie of that smal companye of sixe score personnes, in the which the Apostles were, who by the vertue of the holy Ghoste whiche they there receyued, haue published the determinations of this great Councell. For the truth and the Spirit of God ar bound neither to times, places, nor persons: no, not in dede vnto them which do pos­sesse the seate of the very seruauntes of God, and doo abuse their office, and are gouerned by a contrary Spirite. For al be it that the Bishoppes, the Priestes, the Scribes, the Pharises, & the Councel of Ierusalem, did occupye the place of the true seruantes of God, and had authority ouer the tem­ple and ouer the people, and had all the worldly power and pompe on their syde, & did brag of the promises of the word of God: Yet for all that the holye Ghost did neuer preside in their Councel, as he dyd in the Councell of this small com­panie: [Page 178] and their decrees agaynst the truth, had not so great power to ouerthrowe it, as the decrees of this small compa­nye had to establyshe, confirme, and aduaunce it, and to de­stroye all lyes and vntruth.

Of the examination of the true Christian doctrine: and of the spring and laste determination of the same, and of the curses agaynst those vvhich do falsefye it.

19 D. THese be the decrees of y • which it is written in y e Pro­phets: The law shall come forth frō Sion, & the word Es [...]y. ii of God frō Ierusalē, it is not sayd: The law shal come forth frō y t Mount Capitoline, or Palatine, or Aduētine, or from any other of y e seuen which are in Rome, but frō the mount Sion, & frō Ierusalem, therefore it behoueth vs well to con­sider, whether the doctrine that is set forth vnto vs for Chri­stian, be agreable to that law & word which came frō Sion & Ierusalem: and not to y t which came forth from Rome, & frō the Mountaines of the same, but onely in y • that Rome shall haue receaued it frō thence: for it is the rule by y t which the church of Rome & the doctrine of y e same must be ruled, and not it by the church or doctrine of Rome. That same then which was done in Ierusalem on y e day of Pentecost, Actes. ii in the company of the Apostles & Disciples of Iesus Christ, was done to the ende that the Apostles and Disciples of Ie­sus Christ, being armed with y • power of the spirite of God frō on high, and with that goodly gift of tonges, should (as Acte. 1. lawfull and authorised Ambassadours, & Heraldes of thys great King and sonne of the eternall God) shewe and pro­clayme through out the vniuersall worlde, the determinati­on of this deuine and heauenly Councell, fyrst publyshed & declared by their Lord and Maister Iesus Christ, with the blessings and curses prepared for those which shall receaue or refuse it. It is the laste determination vnto the which we must cleaue and sticke, which hath againe sithe that tyme ben cōfirmed by y e miracles and death of so many Apostles, [Page 179] and Martyrs, that the number is in maner infinite. It is a determination of such importance & of such authoritie, that y e Apostles thē selues, yea & the very Angels of heauen, must be subiecte vnto it: in such sort y t it is by no meanes lawfull for them to set forth or declare any other doctrine then that Gal. 1. 2. of the Gospel of our Lord Iesus Christ, vpon payne of eter­nall cursing, and not without cause. For, seing that y e sonne of God hath spoken, is there anye creature in heauen or in Heb. i Gal. i, ii. earth that may correcte it? If then according to the wit­nes of Saint Paule, the curse and maledictiō of this great Councell be suche, let vs then see in what sorte we ought to esteeme those which dare to take in hande that, which ney­ther Apostle nor Aungell what so euer he be eyther dare or will: and in what daunger they put them selues, that will followe and harken vnto such men.

Of the vengeaunce of God agaynste those that despyse the Gospell.

20 T. MEn ought to consider and thinke wel on that which thou sayest: and truely God hath geuen vs a greate gifte, and hath shewed vnto vs a great token of loue, when that after thys greate and worthye personage Moyses, and so manye other excellent Patriarches and Prophetes, he woulde also sende hys owne Sonne, and woulde himselfe speake vnto vs by hym, and teache vs the true and ryghte waye of sauation, and woulde leade and bryng vs thither Esay. ii. Mich. iiii by hym, as a good father leadeth hys little chylde by the hande. Therefore, we shoulde be verye vnhappye if we would not followe such a guide: for if we will not heare the voyce of the very Sonne of God, and truste in him, whom shall we heare, and whom shall we beleue? We may well saye with S. Peter, Lorde, to whom shall we goe? For thou haste the woorde of eternall life. D. The testimonie that Iohn. vi. hath beene recited oute of the Epistle to the Hebrewes, doth shewe vs playnelye into what daunger we put our selues, if wee dyspyse the doctrine whiche the Sonne of GOD [Page 180] hath broughte vnto vs from heauen, which ringeth in hys Church thorowe the mouth of his Ministers, and is daylye set before vs in the holy Scriptures. T. It is greatlye to be feared that if they which dispised the doctrine whiche was brought vnto them by the seruaunt, were so grieuously pu­nished: Heb x they which shall contemne the Lord and Master, de­serue to be double punished. D. For y • very cause our Lorde Iesus Christ sayd, that the iudgement shall bee more easye Math. x Marck. vi Luk. ix. x againste those of Sodome and of Gomorre, then agaynste them that would not receaue his Gospell, and the bringers of the same.

Of the difference that men do commonly put betvvene the lavve of rigor, and the lavve of grace, and of the abuse that therein is.

21 T. HOw doe these thinges agree then with the difference that we sée men put commonly betwene the olde and the new Testament and betwene the law of Moyses which was geuen to the Iewes, and the lawe of Iesus Christ ge­uen to the Christians? For men do commonly cal y • of Moyses and the olde Testament, the lawe of rigour: and that of Iesus Christ and the newe Testament, the lawe of grace. D. Do these men which make that distinction thinke y t God is chaunged since the time y t he gaue his lawe by Moyses, & that he doth not as much hate iniquitie now, as he did then? Do they thinke that he can better endure the outrage that is done to his own Sonne, then he could do that which was done to his seruaunt? Doe they thinke y t Iesus Christ came into the world to encrease & allowe sinne, and not rather to make it more & more hatefull and to put it away? T. It is like so: for if a man do alledge that adulterie must be puny­shed, and will shewe howe much it displeaseth God, for so Leuit. x Deut. 22 much as he cōmaunded in the law of Moyses, y t adulteries should be punished by death: they haue forthwith their re­course to this distinction of y e law of rigour & of grace, say­ing [Page 181] that we are vnder the lawe of grace, and not vnder the law of rigor. And although they do the like in diuers other such crymes, yet is there none to whom they woulde make this law of grace more beneficiall then to whores & whore­maisters. D. Wherfore do they not then cause that law of grace to be as fauourable to theues, whom they condemne to death, which the lawe of Moyses doth not, as it doth the adulterers? But what is y e cause that murtherers & theues, Exod. 22 Prou. [...] and all other euill doers are punished? why haue they no part of this lawe of grace? T. They thinke that they haue greater reason concerning the punishment of adulteryes, because that Iesus Christ would not condemne the womā Iohn. viii. which was taken in adulterie and brought vnto him by the Iewes. D. Will they by that meane conclude that Iesus Christ did more fauour adulteries, thē he did other offences and crimes? They are therin greatly deceaued. For Iesus Christ did not that which he did in that matter, to geue men to vnderstand that whores and whoremaisters shoulde re­mayne vnpunished: but for y • that his office tended not ther­unto: and that he woulde confound the hypocrisie of those which had brought her vnto him, and therefore he woulde haue done no lesse touching any other offence. Therfore we may not in this sort abuse the grace which is brought vnto vs by Iesus Christ. T. Yet notwithstanding y • matter pas­seth so at this daye.

Of the difference and diuersitie of the lavves of Moyses, and of their nature.

22 D. IT is very true, as it hath beene alreadie declared els where, that we ought to consider in sundry wyse of y • law of Moyses, and that there is greate difference betwene the lawe whereof Moyses was minister, and the Gospell, which appertayneth properlye to the ministerye of Iesus Christ. Men haue accustomed to deuyde the lawe of Moy­ses into three kindes, of the which the first was commonlye [Page 182] called morall, the other ceremoniall, & the other ciuil. Thou hast alreadie heard a part of mine opinion and iudgement touching that matter, I haue alreadie declared howe that the law of God which we do call morall, the which contay­neth the declaration of the euerlasting wil of God, dyd no­thing differ, or at the least very smally from that lawe that we call naturall, which God hath engrauen in the harts of men: and y • that lawe written was geuē but onely to make vs to vnderstand, and to restore vnto vs y t goodnesse which sinne hath taken from vs, and to declare vnto vs how farre a waye it hath caryed from vs the innocencie, holynes and perfection, which ought to be in vs: and should in dede haue bene in vs, if sinne had not entred into the worlde, and that we had continued still in that estate in the which the fyrste man was created. For seing that he was created according to the image of God, there is no doubte but that the will of God, and that which he requyreth of vs, was printed in that image, which shoulde alwayes haue gouerned and ruled the will of man, and shoulde alwayes haue maintayned it agreable with the will of God, and shoulde haue bene vnto vs a lawe for euer. And afterwarde I haue also declared how that the lawe ceremoniall and ciuile, were nothing els but as dependaunces of that lawe, cōmonly called morale and decalogue, (becau [...]e that it conteyneth ten commaun­dementes, which are called in the Scripture, y • ten wordes) to serue to lead men in the keping of that lawe, as well con­cerning those thynges which directlye belonge to God and to his diuine seruice, to the which the ceremoniall law hath regard: as vnto those thinges which touch our neighbour, to the which the ciuile lawes haue their chiefe respect: wher­vpon it hath beene declared in what sorte both the one and the other of these two kinde of lawes mighte be abolyshed & put away, and what liberty we haue concerning the same through our Lord Iesus Christ.

Of the abolishing of the lavve of Moyses, and of the olde Testament, and of the things vvhich ought to be conside­red therin.

23 T. I Haue well vnderstoode all this, but I do thinke, that I haue also heard say y t the whole law of Moses was abolished. And in like sort I haue heard say y t we haue now no more to do neither with Moyses his law, nor any part of the old Testament, but w t Iesus Christ & his gospel. Wher­fore I woulde gladly know of thee if this law of decalogue be also abolished or no, or whether we be yet subiect vnto it, or ells that we be clerely free from it, and how we ought to thinke of it. And then I do thinke y t it shal be more easye for me afterward to vnderstand, if the distinction of the law of rigour and of grace (of the which we haue lately spoken) be any thing meete in such a matter, and how we ought to vse both the one and the other. D. Beside those things wher­of we haue alreadye spoken, we muste note if we will well vnderstand thys matter, that thys abolyshing must be con­sidered in two sortes. The one concerning the transgressi­on, the other the fulfillyng of the lawe. The transgression Leu. ii Gal. iii. Rom. 3. 11 3. King. 4. [...] Gal. [...] Ioh. i. iii [...] Rom. 8 bryngeth with it the wrath and curse of God vpon y t trans­gressour, and maketh euery man subiecte to that curse and wrath. The meane to be deliuered, is by fayth, by the which we embrace Iesus Christ with all the good giftes that are in hym, now it is written that he woulde become subiecte to the lawe, to deliuer from subiection of the lawe those that be subiecte thereunto: and that he being hanged vppon a tree, was made accursed for vs, bearing vpon himselfe the curse Gal. 4. Gene. 12. [...]8 which was due for our transgression to abolyshe the same, and to make vs partakers of y e blessing of God, which was promysed to Abraham and to other holy Patriarches and Prophets through him. For it is he that is the true seede of Psal. [...]. Abraham, in & through whom that promysed blessing was sprinckled vpon all people and nations.

Of the difference that is betvvene the faythfull and the vn­faythful, concerning the blessing and the curse of the lavv, through Iesus Christ.

24 T. VVE may then wel take that which thou sayest for to be the meane whereby the elect and the repro­bate, the faythful and the vnfaythfull are deuided and sun­dred the one from the other. D. In so doing thou takest it not amisse. For as S. Paule witnesseth, we are al borne the Ephe. ii. Iohn. 3. 5. children of wrath. But as it is written in S. Iohn: he that beleueth in the sonne of God, hath eternal lyfe. It foloweth then that he is deliuered from that cursse, whych bryngeth euerlastinge death. And so he is deliuered from the lawe, as touching the condemnacion and cursse wherewith she threatneth all transgressors. Therfore S. Paule saith that ther is no condemnacion for those that are in Iesus Christ Rom. 8 which liue after the spirite, and not after the flesh. For Ie­sus Christ taking vpon him the cursse which they had deserued, hath also satisfied the iustice of God for them, & payde the debt which the law required. And the obedience whych Iesus Christ did yeld to God his father, and the innocency and the iustice that is in hym, is accompted for theirs, as though it were their own properly. Therefore he esteemeth i. Tim. ii. i. Cor. i. ii them for iust. And in consideracion of this great benefitte, Iesus Christ is called by S. Paule, our conuersacion, and our iustice, and contrarilye according to the testimonye of S. Iohn, he that beleueth not in the sonne of God, dwelleth vnder the wrath of God, in the which he is borne, throughe Iohn, iii. v which burden he shall be throwen downe in to euerlasting death, and into the very hel, because he hath no part of this benefit of Iesus Christ, with whom we can haue no part taking at al, but onely thorow true and lyuely fayth. T. I know that very well.

Of the benefit of Iesus Christ, and of the good thinges that vve receiue by him, and vvhat freedome of the lavve he bringeth to the faythfull.

D. MOreouer, the benefyt that we haue in Iesus Christe doth not serue vs onely for the remission of our sins, 25 and the absolucion of the same which we haue committed against the law, by the which the cursse therof is turned in to blessing o: but doth also serue to prepare vs for the tyme to come, and to bring vs to the true obedience that the re­quireth of vs, to the end that we fal no more again into the fylth and daunger out of the which we haue ben deliuered. Therfore Iesus Christ is called not onely our iustificatiō, i. Cori. i. ii but also our sanctificatiō. The benefit then that we receiue of him is double: for first he blotteth out and wipeth away al the sinne that he findeth in vs. After that he doth regene­rate vs by hys holy spirit, and doth reforme and make rea­dy our vnderstandinges and our wyls for to know trulye the wil of God, and to agree vnto the same, and to yeld to God that obedience which is due vnto him. Therfore, how much the more so euer this regeneracion and reformation is perfect in vs, and the more we drawe nye to that estate of innocency, in the which the first man was created and set, so much the more ar we free from the law. For as S. Paul witnesseth: the law is not ordayned for the iust, but for the i. Tim. i. vniust.

In what sorte we ought to vnderstande that the lawe is not ordayned for the iust and the faythful, but for the vniust and faythles.

26 T. HOw doest thou vnderstand this passage or text? D. Tel me, to what end was the law geuen? was it not to restraine men from euil, and to set forward wel doyng? T. That is out of al doubt. D. Then, where ther is no fear of iniquitye and of transgression, there is also no neede of law. For the iust man being ioyned vnto God, and beyng made partaker of his iustice and nature, he is a lawe vnto himselfe. For that that he hath the lawe of God prynted in his hart by the meane of that image of God, vnto the which [Page 186] he is made like. Wherfore, he kepeth hym selfe from euerye thyng that he knoweth to be contrarye to the wyll of God, and employeth hym to euerye thyng that he knoweth to be pleasaunt and agreable vnto him, not with suche a harte & mynd as doth a hyreling, which doth nothing but in hope of hys hyre: or as a man of an euyll mynde whiche refray­neth not from the euyl that he would wyllinglye doo, but onely for that that the punishment whych he feareth, hol­deth hym from it. For suche men doo nothing neither for the honour of God, nor yet for hys iustice, who of hys na­ture is woorthye to be loued and honoured, although there were no rewarde for those that honour hym, nor punysh­ment for them that offende hym, and transgresse agaynste hys holye ordinaunces. T. Why doo they then doo it? D. They doo it onelye for the loue of them selues. But the iust man doth it to honour God, and for the loue that hee beareth to hys iustice, in such sorte, as he cannot otherwise doo, althoughe there were no punishment at all ordayned for the transgressours, nor yet reward for the obedient, as we see manye examples thereof among men. For an ho­nest man doth not keepe hym selfe from being a theefe and a murtherer, for feare of the punishment that is appoyn­ted for suche offences, but for that he loueth vertue, and ha­teth vice. Therefore, althoughe that suche vyces should not be punished at all, yet would he neuer the sooner doo them. And therefore the lawe ordayned for theeues and murthe­rers, is not ordayned for hym, nor maketh hym subiect at all vnto it, as is the theefe and murtherer: for so muche as wythout it he doth of hym selfe that which the lawe requi­reth. And therefore in thys manner is the faythfull deliue­red from the subiection of the law, and in thys sorte the law is abolished vnto hym.

Of the causes for the whych the vnfaythfull remayne styll subiect to the lawe, and wherein the faythfull may also be subiect vnto it.

T. THe vnfaythfull remayneth styll subiect both in the one and in the other sorte: for he is not delyuered frō the 27 cursse of the law, because that hys transgression is not wiped away by the bloud of Iesus Christ. And for that that hys wyll is alwayes contrary to the wyll of God, he hath also continually neede of the law of God to restrayne him, and to prycke hym. And therefore he is not delyuered from the subiection thereof, as is the iust man. D. It is true. And for that there is none so iust nor so perfect, in whom ther re­steth not continually some roote of thys natural rebellion, which through sinne remaineth imprinted in our entrailes during the time that we abide in thys mortal lyfe: we shall remayne so long subiect to the law, as there shall remayne in vs any rebellion, weakenes, or imperfection, and that we be farre from that perfecte reformation gyuen to the image of God, which is requyred in vs. The whych subiec­tion I doo take, not in that sorte that the lawe bringeth the cursse to the transgressours, for so muche as that cursse is to the faythful turned into blessing through Iesus Christ: but I take it in that sort that the lawe doth serue vs for in­struction, to teache vs to refrayne our wil, according to the rule of the wyl of God.

Of the commoditie that the faythfull may also haue of the law, and in how many sortes.

28 T. THe lawe is then alway profitable for vs. D. Yea, & in sundry wyse. For first in declaring to vs the good that we are bound to do, and the euil that we ought to flee, she teacheth vs to know what great commoditye we haue loste, and in to what misery & wretchednes we ar fallen by meane of sinne, to the knowledge whereof shee leadeth vs. And when she hath brought vs to that knowledge, she doth by thys meane bring vs to humble our selues before God, [Page 188] & to demaund hys grace. For the law sheweth vs our onely refuge to be in Iesus Christ, which is he by whom onelye Rom. iiii. v we may obtayne it. For seing that her office is to demaūde of vs, to the vttermost, that which we do owe vnto God, or els to condemne vs for defaulte of the satisfaction whyche she requireth of vs, and that ther is none able to satisfy the least point therin contained, she doth plainly shewe vs that we are dead and lost for euer, if we haue not refuge and remedy els where. For that cause S. Paul doth cal her a Pe­dagoge, to wyt, a leader and a guyde, to bring vs to Iesus Christ, in whom the helpe and remedy is set forth vnto vs. Galat. iii Note this passage T. That is one goodly matter. D. Afterward, for somuche as the iustification and regeneracion whych wee obtayne through fayth in Iesus Christ, and through hys spirite, is gyuen vs to none other ende, but onely to serue in iustice & holinesse, where as before wée serued in iniustice and ini­quitie: & also for so much as that fayth (by whose meanes Rom. 6. 7. we do receyue all these great benefites) can not be ydle, nor without bringing forth the fruits of good works the which God requireth of her, and whereof she is the fountayne & spring: the lawe doth greatly serue vs to make vs to know which be these workes, for God requireth none other of vs: and faith cā bring forth none other but such as God hath declared in his lawe to be agreable & acceptable vnto him. And for so muche as there remayneth continually in oure vnderstandinge certayne of those darknesses, which sinne brought with it, and that by meanes of the same we do of­tentimes dishonour God, what good wyll or intent so euer we haue, thinking in déede to honour him: the law doth also serue vs to lighten and clense these darknesses, & to kepe vs from choosing the euyll in steade of the good, and to cor­rect that zeale wythout knowledge which may be found in vs, On the other side, for so much as it cōmeth often times [...]et no [...]e to passe that our fleshe doth cause our will to resiste that ve­rye [Page 189] knowledge which we haue by the lawe of God: the law is very necessarye to shew vnto vs continually that which we yet wante, and to bryng vs by suche declaration, to re­pentaunce, which is the firste parte of the preaching of the Luk. xxiii [...]. Gospell, to make vs readye thereby to obtayne the other, which is the remission of synnes, through the acknowledg­ing of our offences, and the calling vppon the grace and mercy of God, through fayth in Iesus Christ.

Of the agreement of the lavve and the Gospell, of the olde Testament & of the nevv: and of the turning or chaunge of the lavve of rigour into the lavve of grace, & of the lavv of grace into the lavve of rigour.

29 T. I Doe very well knowe by that which thou sayest, the ignoraunce of those which speake in thys sorte of the lawe and of the Gospell, as hath bene alreadye declared. D. Thou doest here see howe the lawe and the Gospell, the olde Testament and the newe, the lawe of rigour and the lawe of grace, Moyses and Iesus Christ, do as it were hold Mat. vii. xi handes: and howe the Gospell doth there beginne where the lawe doth ende, and doth fullye make perfecte and finyshe that which the lawe beganne, in such sorte that the one go­eth not without the other. And for that cause, our Lorde Iesus Christ dyd saye, that the lawe and the Prophets had their course vntill the comming of Iohn Baptiste, in whose ministery the preaching of the law and of the Gospell were ioyned: and the ministerye of the lawe dyd end, and the mi­nisterye of the Gospell did beginne, to prepare men to that same of Christ, the which he himselfe dyd establyshe in hys perfection: and then afterward the Apostles dyd follow and entertayne it by the preaching of the Gospell. Thou doest also see how by the same meane the lawe of rigour is tour­ned into the lawe of grace, to all such as are made capable therof through Christ. But to the other sorte, it is not onely [Page 190] not so muche turned into the lawe of grace, as the grace which is brought by Iesus Christ to the faythfull, doth the more augment the rigour of the same against the vnfayth­full, which abuse that grace, and cast it from them. For the more that the light of the knowledge is plenteouslye spread abroade vpon the earth, and that God doth shewe more a­boundantlye the riches of hys grace and mercye, and the more that hys Sonne Iesus, through whom he doth make vs part takers of these graces and mercies, hath shewed hym selfe vnto vs familiarly, and is not onely more great and more excellent, then all the Patriarches and prophets, Heb. i. ii yea then the verye Aungels, the more greuous and feare­full shall the punishment be vpon hym that shall despise so great a grace: For he casteth from hym the meane by the which onelye he may receaue that grace. Therefore where as Iesus Christ should be vnto hym a louing Sauiour, he maketh hym hys rigorous Iudge, and turneth that lyfe which he hath brought vnto hym, into death, and the bles­sing into curssing. Therfore we ought wel to haue in mind the warning that the Apostle gyueth in hys Epistle to the Hebrewes, folowing Dauid, saying: if you doo thys days Psal. xcv. Heb. iii. iiii heare hys voyce, harden not your hartes, as your fathers dyd in the wyldernes.

Of the bokes of the great and generall Councels of God, contayning the decrees and Canons of the same.

T. THou hast thorowly confirmed me, and hast wel contented and satisfied my mynde in al these matters, and chiefly touching the matter of the Councel, I am fully contented wyth these twayne, to the whiche thou doest di­rect me, the which I see ioyned together, euen as thou haste sayd that the law & the Gospell, Moyses and Iesus Christ, the olde and newe Testament were one with an other. D. Thou oughtest not otherwyse to vnderstande it. For the [Page 191] Canons and decrees of the firste, are nothing els then the doctrine of the law and of the Prophetes, and of all the old testament, as those of the second are contained in y e doctrine of the Gospel, and of the new Testament, besyde the which we ought not to looke for any other. T. I am very wel contented wyth the same, and I desire God to gyue me hys grace neuer to turne awaye from it, nor neuer to receaue anye other. But for that that my vnderstandyng is verye grose, I would desire thee to doo so [...]uch for me, as first to declare vnto mee the Decrees and Canons of thys firste Councell, which is the law of God, gyuen in the mountain of Synaye: and then I hope when I haue once well vnder­stoode them, that I shall haue a good entrye into the vn­derstanding of those of the other Councel, which are contayned in the Gospell of our Lorde Iesus Christ. D. I am very wel content. But it seemeth that we shall doo well to put it ouer tyl an other tyme, whē we shall haue more leasure.

The table of this woorke, contayning the principall matters of the same booke. The first number declareth the page or syde of the leafe, the second the Section.

OF blyndnes & dysorder that is amonge men in matter of religion. 3. 1
Luthors & causes of all order & disorder. 3. 2
Of the cause of the fall and raigne of mankinde. 4. 3
Of the difficulty that is [...] to acknowledge their errors. 5. 4
Of the proces that men bring a­gainst God. 6. 5
How that al false religion maye be wel defended. 6. 6
Of the argumentes taken of the multitude. 7. 7
Of the argumentes of tyme and auncienty. 8. 8
Of the fal of the deuil. 8. 9
Of the predecessours of the wyc­ked. 9. 10
How that none may so wel alledge auncienty, as the faithful. 10. 11
Of the lāguage that is in the hart of the hipocrites & wicked. 11. 12
Of y e persecutors of y e veriti. 12. 13
Of suche as persecute the truth of a purposed malice. 12. 14
Of those that resist the truth wit­tingly. 14. 15
Of such as do resist the truth, and persecute it through ignorāce. 1516
How that the want of the know­ledge of god & his truth. 15. 17
Of the great care and diligence that is in men. 17. 18
Of the diligence that is in men to do euyll. 18. 19
Of the vices that make men igno­rant of god, & of his truth. 19. 20
Of such as do contemn the know­ledge of God. 20 21
Of the tru knowlege of god. 22. 22
Of the true study of the holy scriptures. 23. 23
Of such Christians as are ignorāt of the word of God. 23. 24
How much necessary the study of the word of God is. 25. 25
Of the desired ignorance. 26. 26
How that the publicatiō that God hath made of hys word. 27. 27
Of the meanes by which god hath and doth declare him selfe dayly to men. 27. 28
Of those that cloke their rebelli­on agaynst the woord and wyll of God. 28. 29
Of those whiche cōmit idolatries to their princes. 30. 30
Of the offices of good princes and good subiectes. 31. 31
How those men obey the deuill, & not their princes. 32. 32
Of lawfull lawes of Christian Princes. 33. 33
Of vnfaythful seruantes to Prin­ces, & of their councels▪ agaynste God. 34. 34
Of the iudgement of the Christian doctrine, and by whom it must be reported. 35. 35
Of the causes why the Princes shuld enquire of the wil of god at the mouth of his ministers 37. 36
Dishonour done to God by suche as vouchsafe not to enquire of his wyl at the handes of his mi­nisters. 38. 37
What meane and order Princes ought to kepe in iudgmēt of thinges apertaining to religiō. 39. 38
Howe men ought to haue greater care for matters appertayning to religion. 41. 39
How that men make more accoūt of their promises, then of theyr consciences. 42. 40
Of the care that ought to be had [Page] to know y • way of saluatiō. 44. 41
Admonitions in the holye Scrip­tures against false Prophetes. 45. 42
How great busines letteth y • hea­ring of the word of God. 46. 43.
Meanes to aduaunce or hinder the busines of men. 48. 44.
Mockers and haters of the Gos­pel, and wil seme no. 49. 45
Of Epicurians amōg the Chri­stians & their diuersitie. 50. 46
Testimonies of Epicurians & of Gods prouidence & iustice against their false opinions. 51. 47
Light of gods worde geuen to mē & the nature of the same. 52. 48
The authoritie of holy scripture. 53. 49.
Diuelish peruersitie of Epicuriās their agreement with the doc­trine of Mahomet. 56. 50
Of mans traditions. 57. 51
How we ought not to do y • which semeth good onely in our owne sight and opinion 58. 52
Of the workes that are done to a good intent. 60. 53
To vnderstand whether god haue ordained sundry religions or no 61. 54
Of the causes of the diuersitie of the positine lawes 62. 55
Of the agreemente of the positiue lawes wyth the Ceremoniall lawes. 63. 56
What libertie God hath geuen in the vsage of ceremonies. 65. 57.
❧ The second Dialogue.
OF the reasons which cause ma­nye to desire and wayte for a Councell. 68. 1
Of the difference that is in Chri­stendom in matters of religion, and what it doth. 69. 2
What profite the Church of God may receiue of Councels, and of their issues. 70. 3
Of the hope that menne may haue of the coūcel in these daies. 72. 4
Of the meanes of the enemies of the truth for the maintenance of their kingdō & false religiō. 73. 5
Of the daūger into the which they cast thēselues which attēd onelye vpon Councels. 74. 6
Of christiā princes to reforme the Church by meane of a generall [...]o [...]cell. 75. 7
Of [...] negligence and want that [...] [...]he ministers of the church 76. 8
Of the empeachments of men in y • reformatiō of the church. 78. 9
How difficulte it is to assemble a lawful Coūcel at this day. 79. 10
How the Christians hinder the reformation of the Church. 81. 11
What Councel the true christians ought to follow. 83. 12
Of such as woulde agree the doc­trine of Iesus Christe, and that of Antichrist together. 84. 13
The Interim maye not be recey­ued neither into the Churche of christ, ne yet of Antichrist. 85. 14
Of such christians as be Newters and indifferent. 86. 15
For what cause the Interim hath his name of an aduerbe. 88. 16
The profite that those that be in­structed in Gods word, may re­ceiue by the Councels. 89. 17
We oght not to be the disciples of mē but of Iesus Christ. 90. 18
The word of God dothe authorise it selfe. 92. 19
What goodnes men may receyue of a good Coūcel, and what euil of an euil Councel. 93. 20
What the good Councels may do to the wycked. 94. 21
What frute the church may receue of the lawful Councels. 96. 22
What prayse is due to good prin­ces and magistrates. 97. 23
Hipocrisy of such as depend vpon [Page] mē in matter of religion. 98. 24
How we are disciples of men, and how of Iesus Christ. 100. 25
Of the nature and vertue of true fayth. 101. 26
Of the honor that is due to good & true teachers in y e church. 103. 27
Of the diff [...]rence of the apostles & prophets: and of those that came after them. 105. 28
The Councell of S. Au [...]yne concerning Councels [...] [...]i­tings of the Fathers. [...]
❧ The third Dialogue inti­tuled, The authoritie of Councels.
OF the assistance of the holy ghost in lawful Councels. 109. 1
What is to be desyred in Coūcels those which are most excellent. 111. 2
Of the weakenesses which wer in the Councel of Nice. 112. 3
Of the contrarieties betwene the bishoppes & ministers that haue bene in many aunciente Coun­cels. 113. 4
Of the contradictiōs of the popes and their decrees. 114. 5
Of the contrarietie of the decrees of many Councels. 116. 6
Of the contrarictie of certain coū cels concernyng the difference of meates. 118. 7
Of the decrees of the Councels of Constance and Basle touchyng the Lordes supper vnder bothe kyndes. 119. 8
Contrarietie in many Coūcels cō cernyng Images. 120. 9
Of the Councel of Carthage con­cerning the Baptisme, admini­stred by heretiques. 121. 10
Opiniō of the papists, concerning general and particular Coūcels 122. 11
Of the abuses and errors whiche haue ben broght into the church 122. 12
Of those that would haue the prelates of the church to correct the abuses that therin are. 124. 13
Thinges of them selues sufficiently resolued without resolution of the Councel. 125. 14
The liberty of Christians in refor­ming abuses. 127. 15
The passages which the Papistes alledge to authorise their Coun­cels. 129. 16
The holy ghost is not bounde to a­ny kind of persō or estate. 1 [...]9. 17
Of y e assēbles of y • faithful. 131. 18
Of the Councels of the hereticks, condemning the Coūcels of the faythful. 132. 19
The contradicions of the aunciēt Councels, declare that the councels may erre. 134. 20
No hope for the Christiās to haue a lawful Councel. 136. 21
What praiers men ought to make for their Princes. 138. 22
What Councel they ought to fol­low that haue princes whych ar enemies to the Gospel. 139. 23
Of the studi of the holy scriptures and of the decrees of the Coūcel of Nice cōcerning the sam. 140. 24
Of the true Councels which excel al the rest in authority. 142. 25
The authoritye of Princes & Po­pes concerning councels. 143. 26
Of the maner of the proceedyng of the Papistes in their Councels. 144. 27
Prudence required in dispu [...]a [...]ion in the papistik councels. 145. 28
Resolucion of the papistical coun­cels. 146. 29
What discords may be in the councels of the Papists. 147. 30
Of the Popes practises for his determination and conclusion of Councels. 149. 31
Of the ignorance of the popish by­shops. 150. 2
Of the final conclusion and resolu­cion of the Councell of the Pa­pistes. 151. 33
The order of the bishops in giuing their consent in the papisticall Councels. 153. 34
❧ The fourth dialogue, inti­tuled, The resolution of Councels.
Of the charge whyche God gaue vnto Moyses. 155. 1
The allowing of the old testament is the allowing of y e new. 157. 2
For what cause God did allowe & confirm wyth such authority the ministery of Moyses. 158. 3
Of the subtilties of the Pagā law makers & false prophets. 159. 4
Of the testimonies that God hath geuen to Moyses of hys voca­tion. 161. 5
Of the aduertismēts that God did giue to y e people of Israel. 162. 6
What tokens God gaue of his presence in the moūt Synay. 163. 7
Of the signification of the signes which God dyd gyue in gyuing hys law. 164. 8
Of the vsage of the law. 165. 9
For what cause God woulde feare the people of Israel by those sig­nes whyche he gaue in the moūt Synay. 165. 10
Of the trumpet whiche did sounde in the mount Synay. 166. 11
Of the last and generall iudgemēt of God. 167. 12
Of the sanccifitation that God re­quired of hys people, when hee would geue hys law. 169. 13
Of fastinges and of differences of meates which the papistes vse, and of their original. 170. 14
Of the sobrierie, abstinence & ho­nesty that is required of the christians. 171. 15
Of the Counsell that was hol­den in the mount Syon. 172. 16
Of the manifestation of God in Christ. 174. 17
Of the last scale, and of the last de­claration and contirmation of the doctrine of God 176. 18
Of the examinaciō of the true chri­stian doctrine. 178. 19
Of the vengeaunce of God against those y • despise the gospel. 179. 20
Of the difference that men do commonly put betwene the lawe of rigour, & the law of grace 1 [...]0. 21
Of the difference and diuersitie of the lawes of Moyses, & of their nature. 181 22
Of the abolishynge of the lawe of Moyses, and of the olde Testa­ment. 183. 23
Of the difference that is betwene the faithful & vnfaithful. 184. 24
Of the benefyt of Iesus Christ, [...] of the good thinges that we re­ceiue by hym. 185. 25
In what sort we ought to vnder­stand that the law is not orday­ned for the iust and the faithful, but for y e vniust & faithles. 185. 26
Of the cause for the which the vnfaythful remayne styl subiect to the law. 187. 27
Of the commoditye that the faith­full maye also haue of the lawe. 187. 28
Of the agreement of the lawe and the Gospel. 189. [...]9
Of the bookes of the great and [...] ­neral councels of God. [...]
FINIS.

✚ Imprinted at London by Ihon Day, dwelling ouer Alders­gate, beneath Saint Martins. (⸫)

Cum gratia & priuilegio, Regiae Maiestatis per Septennium.

¶ These bokes are to be solde at his shop vnder the Gate.

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