AS allmighty god is the auctor of al truth, yea euen y ^e truth it selfe, as Christe, in these wordes doth testify: I am the waye, the truth, & the life: so all lyinge, & falshod cometh from the deuyll: as Christ sayth in Iohn: y ^e deuyll is a lyer, & the father of the same. Wher­by it is not hard to knowe, of what spirit ye be: whych begyn your boke with so many vnsha­mefaced lyes, and goo forward with falsehod: & both in reher­syng of other mens doynges, & sayinges, and also in matters of religion: do willingly, and adui­sedly, treade doune the truth: mainteyning the doctryne of y ^e deuyll (I meane heresy, & false [Page] doctrine) with lies, falshod, and somtime with subtil Sophistry: which I reken the deuill at cer­tain times powreth into you, to defende hys doctryne wyth all, for al the learned men that haue disputed with you in your opinions, whit whom I haue spoken, iudge you to be so iklender a clerk: y ^t they think y ^t ye neuer lerned nether sophistry, nor logike nether anye good scyence in all your life, sauinge only musyke: wherin yf I be so cūning, as the comō report maketh you: it had ben better for you to haue songe your part agaynste me in tune: thē to haue to vnlearnedly, and lyingly written against me, out of ordre, and oute of tune, from the truth. first, as hereafter foloweth, thus do ye begyn. ‘☞ Master Turner intendynge to proue [Page] that infantes maye well and oughte to be baptysed in theyr infancye, by the worde of God, began fyrste, as I am enformed, to commend vnto hys audience the custom of colleges, and scoles in Oxforth, and cambrydge, and suche other: where it is ordeyned, that suche as shall be admytted to the feloweshyppe of suche houses, shall heare the statutes where vnto they shal be bounde .iiij. tymes in the yeare, that they may knowe theyr charge therby, and kepe it: Whiche custome is in dede a resonable and landable custom, but not in all poyn­tes agreable to his purpose. For there they receyue no infantes to the felowshyppe of theyr houses: but such as are growen to vnderstanding, and do ernestly sewe to be receiued: and being receiued, haue theyr year of probation, to se whyther they can alow, and lyke the company wyth all theyr sta­tutes and condytyons, and the companye them or not, or euer they be admytted.’

¶ In the fyrst sentence of your boke, ye teach the readers of it▪ (to make them like you) a loudly: that is to wyt: that I dyd [Page] alledge the custome of the re­ding of the statutes of colleges, iiij. tymes in the yeare, to the felowes of the colleges: to proue, that chyldren in their infancy both ought, and myght well be baptysed. which is playne false. For al though I intended in the end of my sermond to proue, y ^t infantes myght wel be baptised in their infancy: yit in the beginning of my sermōd, I cited and alledged not y ^e maner of reding of statutes in colleges, to proue that infantes shuld be baptised: but to teache my hearers, that were present in the church: that I thought it as necessarye for Christen men, to haue their baptyme to be oft opened, and declared vnto them: wherein is con­teyned in a small roume, y ^e hole [Page] summe of a Christē mannes profession: as it was necessarye for scolers to haue theyr statutes red .iiij. tymes in the yeare. For I had bene worse then mad, to haue sayd, that the declaration of baptyme had bene necessary for chyldren, whiche can vnder­stande neuer a worde of the de­claratiō. But let the wordes of my sermond be iudge in thys matter. My wordes a lytle af­ter the prayers were these. ‘☞ And because baptysme is the summe of all the hole Christian profession, wher­in we promysed to beleue in Christ, and obey hys commaundementes: it shall be fyttest for me to entreat therof. I thynke it well done, and do much prayse, and alow the custom vsed in vniuersytes, in euerye colledge or house .iiij, tymes in a yeare to haue the statutes lawes, and ordinaunces of theyr houses, openly red vnto thē: wherby cometh great profyt vnto .ij. kyndes of scolars, for in euery colledge or house of [Page] learnynge, there be comonly .iij. sortes of scolars: one perfyt, and well learned: the seconde vnperfyt, yet desyrous and labou­ryng to attayne to the perfection: y ^t thyrde is vtterly vnlearned, and yet neuer inten­deth to come vnto any learnynge: To the ij. fyrste sortes of these scolars, is the rea­dyng of the lawes, and statutes of their house verye profytable: to the perfyt, that by the often hearynge of them, they maye be by no processe or lenght of tyme, forgotten, and slyppe oute of theyr mynde: To the vnperfyt, yet desyrrus, and lackyng tyme to come to perfectyon, it is very profytable, that the customable hearynge of the statutes and lawes of theyr house redd before them, maye bete into theyr heades, and make them the better to knowe what ordynances be apointed for them, wherby they maye attayne to a perfectyon. And so are there thre kyndes of chrysten men. &c. and a lytle after I sayde these wordes: As to the fyrste sortes of scolers, the re­hersall yf theyr statutes is verye profy­table: so to the .ij. fyrste sorte of Chrysty­ans, the often readyng and repetyng of y ^e summe and abrigement of Gods cōman­dementes is very necessary. for as the sta­tutes in colledges do shew vnto scholars, [Page] what was their founders wyll, that they shulde kepe: and wherunto they be bound by the lawes of theyr house: so ought we to haue an abrigement or summe of the cō ­maundementes of God, to teach vs what is our duety, and what we haue bounde our selues to kepe.’ When as these be my wordes: & of them no other sentence can be gathered: but y ^e I thought, it was as necessary, that bap­tysme (which conteyneth in it y ^e hole profession of a Christen mā: & declared, teacheth hym what is his duty, and what God re­quyreth of him) shuld be oftē ty­mes rehersed, & opened: as y ^e statutes of colleges, shulde be red vnto y ^e scolars, to put them in remembrance, what they are boūd to, and what their founder re­quireth of them: how froward­ly, and falselye doo ye wryte my wordes: and fein, that I brynge [Page] them in, for to proue that chyl­dern myghte, and oughte to be baptysed? or if ye wyll not haue it done of malyce, and froward­nes: I muste nedes impute it to wonderfull great ignoraunce, and want both of wyte and learnynge. [...]or what learned man, replying agaynste hys aduersa­ry, whyche had holden .iij. con­clusyons, and made thre resons in ordre one after an other, to confyrme hys conclusyons with all: wold aunswer fyrst to y ^e last conclusyon: and say, that hys aduersaryes reason defending the fyrste conclusyon, maketh not in all poyntes for the laste conclu­syon? In thys your doynge ye folowe verye nere a certayn vnlearned limiter of Cambrydge. Thys freer was longe and ma­nye a daye a lymyter, and a beg­gynge [Page] thefe: whyche vnder the pretence of long prayer had de­uoured the house of manye a poore wydowe: and whyles he dyd that, he learned nothynge but knauery. thys freer beynge olde, by the reason of hys age, thoughte shortlye to be pryor of the place: and if he were bache­ler of dyuynytye, he shuld the soner come by his purpose. he gat hys grace wyth muche labour, and many promises, to be bacheler of dyuynytye: but he muste answer fyrst in a dysputation, in the dyuynytye schole. But the freer perceyuynge hym selfe vnmeete for that matter, came vn­to the doctor that shuld dispute wyth hym: and desyred hym, to be good vnto hym: and to lett him haue his arguments in writynge, and clerklye solutyons [Page] wrytten in ordre for euery argument: promising to content him for his labor, the doctor dyd so. but when y ^e doctor propounded the fyrst argument in order, in y ^e beginning of the disputatiō had in the scoles: the vnlerned, and forgetfull fryar, applyed the last solution to the fyrst argument. But the doctor spake merely vnto the freer in these wordes: ‘ Domine, adhuc non sumus ibi,’ Syr we are not yet there. And so must I saye vnto you, answe­ring me lyke y ^e vnlearned frear. Syr we are not so farre as yet. answer fyrst to my first questy­ons, & to y ^e reasons made to de­fend them: & when ye haue cōfuted them, go in hand with them, that folow in order. But let vs go forwarde, and answer to the rest of the lies. Ye say, that I began [Page] my sermon with the reher­sing of y ^e custome of colleges, as yeare informed: pretendinge, y ^e ye had not had not had y ^e copye of my sermone before you: for this intent (as it doeth playnly apeare) y ^t ye might make a place for mo lyes, whiche ye purposed to bryng in by y ^e window: y ^t is, if any man shuld accuse you for rehersyng any thynge hereafter, lyingly & falsly: y ^t ye might say, I was so informed: as thoughe ye had learned y ^e matter only by hear say, & not by any writyng. But the truth is, y ^t ye wrote not one word against me, vntill y ^t ye had my hole sermone writtē in youre handes. Therfore, yf by your information ye meane any thyng, sauyng that ye were in­formed by my writtē sermone: ye swarue far from y ^e truth. the [Page] lye wherunto ye made a place, in youre feined information, is conteyned in these wordes. ‘☞ He began first as I am informed to cō mend vnto hys audience, the custome of colledges, and scoles in Oxforth, & Cam­brydge, and such other: where is ordeined, that such as shall be admitted to felow­shyp of such houses, shall heare the statu­tes: whervnto they shall be bound .iiij. ty­mes in the yeare, that they maye knowe their charge therby, and kepe it.’

¶ If this be not a shameful lye, where ye say that I spake of scolers, that were yet to be admit­ted: I report me vnto my hole auditory: and to all them that haue red, and shall rede my ser­mond, faythfully gathered of me by Thomas Norton. But because euery man perchaunce, can not come by my sermond, I will repete a fewe wordes of it: which shall proue ye gyltie of y ^e lye, that I layde vnto youre [Page] charge. My words were these. ‘☞ As the statutes in colledges do shewe vnto scolars, what is their founders wyl, that they shuld kepe, and wherunto they be bounde (lo here I saye whereunto they be bounde, and not wherunto they shal be boūde) by y ^e lawes of theyr house: so ought we to haue an abrygement, or summe of y ^e commaundementes of God, to teach vs, what is our duety (I say not what shal be our duty) and what we haue bounde oure selues to kepe.’

¶ Marke here, how that I say: what we haue boūd our selues to kepe, and not what we shall bynde our selues to kepe. Then when as my example of the readyng of the statutes of coileges, foure tymes in the yeare, agre­eth in all poyntes wyth my purpose, that I applyed it to: ye do me open wronge, to scourge me for your fayned and false forged wordes: sayinge y ^t my example [Page] doth not agree in al poyntes w ^t my purpose, because it agreeth not with your wordes: whiche ye bryng in after such a maner, as they were myne Now seyng that thys playnsonge is yours, the descant that ye make vnto it, belongeth nothing vnto me, but se y ^t ye singe in tune, they ye offende not the eares of as cun­ning artificers, as you be.

¶ After these lyes, with which ye might haue ben cōtent, yf ye had not ben vnsatiable with suche: ye go fast forwarde to bryng in mo, sayenge: ‘☞ That such a lyke costome was once in our moost holye relygyon, as was in col­leges and in orders of relygyon, wher as none were admitted, before they had a year of probation. Wher vnto ye put this that they that cam to be baptised, demaunded, and desyred to be receiued to the fe­low ship of the christiās after dewe proofe [Page] of vnfayned repentaunce, & thereby were called competentes. Yonge men, and wy­men requyrynge baptysme: and then were taught the principles of the christian faith and were fyrst called Catecumeni. And after those principles learned, were vpon certayne solemne dayes, at two tymes of the year approued, therfore baptysed: which was vpon easter euen, and wit son­day euen: promysyng for them selues thobseruaunce of Gods law, with the renoun­cyng of the deuell and the worlde in theyr owne person without Godfather or god­mother, seuen score yeares longe: tyll Igi­nius byshop of Rome ordened to baptyse an infante, a godfather and godmother aunswerynge for hym.’ Where as ye say that the lyke maner was in out most holy re­ligion, as the scolers and reli­gious men had: that none shuld be admitted, vntil they had ben proued a yeare, and first called competentes, and then cathecu­meni. [Page] I maruayl what religion ye meane of: whether ye meane of the popes religion, or christes religion, or of the Catabaptistes relygion: whiche is your religion in dede. Yf ye mean of the catabaptistes relygyon, or the po­pes: it may be so: but thys wote I well, that it was no custome in Christes most holy relygyon. for then shuld we haue sene som mentyon of it, ether in the actes of y ^e Apostels, or in the epistels, or gospels. But there is no mentyon of any suche lyke custome. Therfore ther hath ben no such custome in Christes moste holy religyon: except there be a most holy relygyon of Christe, wher­of is no mentyon at all, nether in Christes gospell, nether in any part of the hole newe testa­mente. Christe neuer tyed vnto [Page] any time the receauinge of bap­tyme nether dyd the Apostles orden that at Easter euen, and Wytson euen, baptisme shoulde be receyued: Nay: the custom of Christes primatiue church, and hys Apostels, is contrary vnto the custome vsed in your moste holy religiō. For I reade in the second chapter of y ^e actes of the Apostles, that ther was .iiij.M men baptised on the same daye, that thei hard Peters sermon: & that without any delay. The wordes of y ^e scripture are these. When they had heard Peters wordes, they were prycked in their herte, and sayde vnto Pe­ter, & the other Apostles: what shall we do, ye men whyche are our brethren? Peter sayde vn­to them: repent you of your sin­nes: and let euery one of you be [Page] Baptised in the name of Iesus Christ, to the forgeuenes of sin­nes: and ye shal receiue the gifte of the holy goste, to you, and to youre chylder: and to all them that are afar of, whome soeuer our Lorde GOD shal call.

And with many other wordes he witnessed, & exhorted sayng, kepe your selues from this fro­warde nacion. Therefore they that gladly receiued the worde wer baptised, & ther came to the churche that same day about .iij thousand soules. How say you? fynde ye any mention of these wordes competentes, of Cathechumeni, of differinge baptime vnto easter euen, and Witsone­uen, or of any yere of probation? After that Philip in the .iiij. of the actes of y ^e apostles, had with in the space of few houres dili­gētly [Page] instructed the gelded mā. Thesame said vnto Philip, whō he saw the water: beholde here is water, what let is there but that I may be baptised? What wold ye haue done if that ye had bene in Philips place? it dothe appere by your writynge, that ye wolde haue aunswered, syr it is the custom in our moste holy religion, to baptise only vpon Easter euen, & witsonday euen: and suche as haue bene compe­tentes, cathecumem, and haue bene longe tyme approued: and that haue geuē a sufficient profe of true repentaunce: But how­soeuer ye wolde haue aunswe­red, Phylyp aunswered, and dyd thus: If thou beleuest with al thy hart, thou mayest be bap­tysed, and the Enuch aunswe­red, I beleue that Iesus Christ [Page] is the sone of God, and he com­maunded to holde still the wa­gen: and thei went both downe into the water, Philip, and the Enuch: & Philip baptised hym. Did Philip require of this mā, a yere of probatiō: that he shuld be catechumes, and competen­tes, a greate whyle before he shulde be baptised? No forfoth. For he Baptised hym streyght waie, wythout any delay at all. Peter in the .x. of the Actes, af­ter that his heres hadde recei­ued the holy goost, sayde these wordes: can there any man let, but that these may be baptised, whiche haue receyued the holy goste as wel as we? what wold ye haue answered vnto S. Pe­ter if ye had ben ther? It is like­ly: that ye wold haue answered, lack of faith & age in al thē, that [Page] are vnder the age of .xiiij. yeres and the vse of Christes primati­ue churche, is to baptyse none with so sclender a trial of vnfai­ned repentaūce: nother is it the custome in our moost holy reli­gion, that any that haue not ben longe tyme tryed, and haue not ben competētes and Cathechu­meni, shuld be baptised: and the time serueth not, for it is nother Easter euē, nor Witsonday euē. Wel I can not suerelie tel what ye wold haue answered, but Peter dyd commaunde them al to be Baptised in the name of the Lorde, thei were baptised with out any further delay or triall. Ananias in the .ix. Chapiter of the actes, came vnto Paule lay­inge his handes vpon his head, and seide thus. Brother Saul, the Lorde whome thou sawest [Page] in the way, wherin thou came, hath sent me: that thou shuld re­ceiue thy sight againe, and be filled with the holy goste, & forth­wyth there fell from hys eyes, as they had bene scales: and he saw again and rose, & was bap­tised. Howe many wekes was Paule a competentes, and how longe was he cathechumenus: Can ye proue that Ananias did differ his baptime vntil Easter, or witsonday? In the .xvi of the actes, Lidia was baptised with out any delay. The dysciples, that were at Ephesus, and had ben only baptised of Iohn, with out any prolongynge of tyme, were baptised out of hand.

It is also wryten of Paul, in the .xxij. of the Actes of the A­postels: that Ananias sayd vn­to Paule, as sone as he hadde [Page] receyued his sight: why taryest thou? ryse vp, and be baptised. It appeareth plainly, if you had bē in Pauls stede: that ye wold haue thus holyly, and wysely haue answered Ananias: what hast? It hath bene a custome long in our moste holy religion, that no man shall be baptised, except he haue ben competens, and Cathechumenus: and haue shewed some suer tryall of hys vnfayned repentaunce, yet for all the custom in your most holy religiō, Paul was streight way baptised. Now seynge that I haue brought furth .vij. sundrye places, and examples: to proue that the custom in Christes ho­ly Relygyon in the primatiue churche, was contrarye vnto the custome, that ye sayde was in youre mooste holy relygyon [Page] seuen score yeres: How shame­les a lyer ye be, ye are sufficient­ly declared: yf that ye meane by your moste holy religion, Chri­stes religiō. By the same places is your supersticious admitting of men to baptim, & your diabo­lic al delaies, that Christes peo­ple haue ben longe tryed, & ben competentes & Cathechumeni, vtterly confunded. Wher as ye say that your custū endured .vij score yeares, it is not true, for though Hyginus (whom ye cal very vnlearnedly Iginius) had ordened the baptisinge of child­ren (whiche I will not graunte you) yet had not youre scrupu­lous custom of dilaying of bap­time endured seuen score yea­res, for ye must take out the ty­me, that goeth betwen Christis byrth: and the tyme that Paule [Page] dyd preache: in which time wer about .xlix. yeares after Chri­stes natiuitie at the leste, for Christ was aboute, xxxiiij. yea­res old, when he suffered. Tha­postels preached after Christes passion a greate while, before Paule was conuerted: whiche beynge but yonge, kept the clo­thes of them that flew Steuē: and thē a good while after was Paule called. Let me se, where youre dilayinge custom can be found in Christes tyme: whose actes and doctrine the foure E­uangelistes haue fully described and committed vnto writinge: and I haue proued that the cu­stom of the primatiue church, is clene contrary vnto your custō, this is also approued to be true, Higinus was bishop in Rome. An .c.xxxix. yeres by the abrigement [Page] of Chronicles: and by Pā thalion in hys Chronographia, In .C.xi. and by Eusebius, he entred in to hys office, An. C.xlii. Thē had ye missed of reckening, al though Higinus had ordened the baptisyng of childer. But it is a false lye: that Higi­nus was he, that ordened first the baptising of childer. If that ye can clere your selfe, I wil re­cant, and cry you mercy. Wher is your sufficient, and auncient author, that writeth that Higi­nus ordened the baptim of chil­der first? I haue read many hy­stories, and cronicles: to se whyther Higinus ordened the bap­tisyng of children, or no: but as yet I can not fynde it.

Panthalion, which called his booke Chronographia, writeth thus. Higinus a Greciā borne, [Page] was in the year of oure Lorde .C.xli. and he ordened the chrys­me, and godfathers to bapty­me. The boke called epitome hysto­riarum, reporteth thus of Hygi­nus. Hyginus a grecian orde­ned chrisme, and godfathers, to the baptym of christen men: and the boke appoynteth to him the year of oure Lorde .C.xxix. Carhanza the gatherer of the abrygement of the councells, and decreees, hath these wordes of Hyginus. Hyginus the eyght pope, put vnto Baptym, and confirmation, a godfather and a godmother. Marke that all these three testimonies witnes not, that Hyginvs dyd ordene the Baptyme of infantes: but that he ordened to Baptyme, or put vnto Baptym Godfa­thers, and Godmothers.

I aske you, to what baptim dyd Hyginus orden or put to godfathers, and godmothers? ye wil not say: that de ordened godfa­thers, and godmothers to old­men: for that wer nothynge for your purpose. If ye say: that he ordened them, and put them to the baptyme of lpechelesse chyi­der: then was the baptysinge of chylder, before Hyginussis time Then do ye wrōge to saye, that Hyginus that pope ordened the chrystenynge of specheles chyl­der: who only added and put to the Baptising of childer, chris­me, and godfather, and godmo­ther. Now wyl I com vnto the wytnesses of twoo great cler­kes, the former, who is called Volaterrane, sayeth. ‘ Hyginus insti­tuit, ut Baptismo seu confirmationi unus sal­tem quem compatrem uocant, interesset.’ [Page] Hyginus ordened that one at the lest, that they cal godfather, shude be presented at y ^e baptime. The latter is named Platina, who wrote a propre boke, of the byshop of Rome. His words of Higinus are these. ‘ Voluit item unum saltē patrimum, unam ue matrimam Baptismo inter esse. Sic enim eos appellant qui infantes tenent, dum baptizantur.’ He ordened or woulde also, that at the lest, one godfather or godmother, should be presente at baptyme. For so do they call them, whiche hol­de specheles chylder, whyles they are baptised. It is a greate wonder, that Hyginus shulde haue ordened the baptim of in­fates: and none of al these learned men wolde make mention of that matter, as they haue done clerely of other matters. Doutles they haue made no mē tiō [Page] at al, in the declaringe of the deedes of Hyginus, that he or­dened baptyme. Then must I presse you with youre owne mannet of arguynge, whyche is thys.

¶ We rede not that Christ, nothet the Apostles ordened the baptyme of chylder. Ergo, no­ther Christe ordened, nother the Apostles ordened the bap­tym of childer. If thys be a suer argumente, then this that I wyl make of the same fashion must also be suer. We rede not in their bookes that wrote the actes of Hyginus: that Higinus ordened baptym: therefore Hy­ginus ordened not Baptym. But perchaunce ye wyl reason thus: he ordened godfathers, and godmothers to the bapty­me of chylder. This argumēte [Page] wanteth strength for the hole church, or the farer and mother maye present and offer vp an infante vnto Christe: and requyre streyght way of thelders of the churche the Sacrament of baptyme, thoughe the chrysme wer in his belly that ordened it, and the godfathers were neuer or­dened. Wherfore ye wer to bold (nay to vnshame faced) to say, that pope Hyginus ordened the baptyme of infantes: because all men shuld hate it, that hate the pope.

¶ Ye allege in the ende of your booke, Erasmus, amonge a great sorte of heretikes, which wrote agaynst the baptim of in­fants: and ye alleged Erasmus, that chylder was not baptised in the Apostels time; and it is true, that Erasmus sayde: [Page] that baptime of chyldren was not receiued in y ^e apostels tyme. for hys wordes are these. ‘ Nec ea quaestio tum mouebatur, quum nondum esset receptū pueros baptizari.’ Then wyl ye say peraduenture: here is one learned mans opinion agaynst you, that the baptime of childer was taken vp after the apostels tymes. I aunswer you that S. Cyprian, whiche lyued and flo­rysshed, within .cc.lvij. of Chri­stes byrth: and Saynt Austen, which liued but .CCCC.xlij. after Christes natiuite, affirmed both, that the baptisyng of chyl­der came vnto vs from the apo­stels handes: and Erasmus sayeth that the baptime of childer was nod receiued in the Apo­stels times. Whether is it more mete to beleue? Cypryan, and Austen whiche were so nere the [Page] Apostles tyme: or Erasmus, whiche lyued and dyed in oure dayes? What wyll ye answere? Aunswer what ye wyll, I wyll make Erasmus by hys owne sentence and reason pronounce, that Austē and Cyprian are ra­ther to be beleued in suche lyke matter, then he is. Erasmus beyng sumthing offended with Chrysostome, whyche denyed Paule had a wyfe, wrote these wordes. ‘ Chrysostomus fatetur fuisse, qui putarent hic Paulū appellare suam uxorem: sed dissentit: nec causam reddit, cur dissentiat. Sed utris potius aequū est accedere Clementi, & Ignatio, quorū ille Petri comes fuit, hic Marci Euangelistae discipulus: & Chrysostomo, qui tanto inter­uallo semotus fuit a temporibus apostolorum.’

Chrysostome graunteth: that there were some, that thought that Paule in thys place, spake [Page] spake vnto hys wyfe: but he thynketh otherwyse, & yet sheweth no cause why. But whether of thes is it meter, that we shuld beleue, Clement, and Ignaty­us, of the whych, the one was Peters companyon, and the o­ther the dyscyple of Marke the Euangelist: or Chrysostome, whyche was so longe a tyme from the tyme of the Apostles? Thys may be gathered of these wordes: he is more worthy cre­dence in bearyng of wytnes, that is nerer the dede, when it is done: or nerer the tyme, whē it was done. Whervpon I con­clude thus. Austen, Cypriane, and Orygen, were nerer the a­postles tymes, then Erasmus was, therfore Austen, and Cy­pryane, are more to he beleued, whyche wrote, that baptyme [Page] came from the Apostles: then Erasmus, whych sayd, that baptysyng of chyldren was not re­ceyued in the Apostles tymes. Here are ye dysapoynted of one of your postes, that ye lened to in your opynyon, that the bap­tyme of chyldren was not re­ceyued in the Apostles tymes. But leste ye shoulde thynke, that Austen, and Cyprian, we­re not of that mynde, wherof I report them to be: I wyll rehearse yow Saynt Austens wordes in the fourth boke a­gainst the Donatistes of the baptising of chyldren, in the fourth chapter. ‘ Et si quis (quam) in hacre autoritatem diuinam quae­rat: quan (quam) quod uniuersa tenet ecclesia, nec conciliis institutum, sed semper retentum est: [Page] non nisi autoritate apostolica traditum rectis­sime creditur.’

That is, If any man loke for the autorite of God in this matter. Howbeit, that which y ^e hole churche holdeth, and is not or­dened of any counsell, but is al­wayes holden styll: it is mooste ryghtlye beleued, that it was geuen oute and ordened by the Apostles. The same Austen in a sermonde of the baptysme of infantyng agaynst the Pelagy­aus, sayth these wordes: Cy­priane beyng axed, whether an infant myghte be baptysed, be­fore the viij. daye: because in y ^e olde lawe, the childe myght not be cyrcumcysed, but on the ey­ghte day: Saint Cyprian said: that no man shulde be hyndred from grace, and that the spiry­tual cyrcumcysyon oughte not [Page] to be hyndred by carnall cyr­cumcysyon. Cypriane wryteth also in the viij. epistel of y ^e thyrd booke, these wordes, concer­nyng the baptyme of infantes. ‘ Porro autem si etiam grauissimis delictoribus, & in deum multum ante peccatibus, cū postea crediderunt, remissio peccatorum datur: & ae baptismo, at (que) gratia nemo prohibetur: quanto magis prohiberi non debet infans, qui recens natus, peccauit: nisi quòd secundum Adam car naliter natus, contagium mortis antiqua prima natiuitate contraxit?’

Furthermore, but yf that forgeuenes of synnes, be geuen vnto the greatest synners, and to them, that dyd greately of­fend before, after that they dyd beleue: and no man is forbyd­den frō baptyme & grace: How much more ought not a spechles chylde to be forbydden, whych [Page] beyng lately borne, hath com­mytted no offence: but that it beyng borne carnally after A­dam hath caught the infeccyon of the olde death, by hys fyrst byrthe? This is the mynde of Cypryane, concernyng bapty­syng of chylder, and of originall synne. And the same doctor writeth in an other place. ‘ Nos iure damnamus omnia, quae Chri­stus non docuit.’

We condemne by good ry­ght all thynges, whych Christe hath not taught. But Cypry­ane alowed the baptyme of chyldern, therfore he reckened, that the baptysyng of chyldren was taught of Christ. That Origen is of that iudgement, that y ^e baptyme of chylder came from the Apostels, hys wordes vpon the epystle to the Romanes, and [Page] vpon Iohan, do clearly testyfy: as hereafter I shall proue, whē I shall come to the place, where as ye alledge Orygen your ow­ne selfe.

Now seyng that these no­ble learned men, whych were so nere hand the tymes of the A­postles, holde in theyr workes with the baptyme of infantes, and saye that it came vnto vs from the Apostles: what wyse man wyll rather beleue yow, beynge so longe after the Apo­stles tymes, then them, whych were so long ago, and so nere the tymes of the Apostels? Ye haue therefore long and besely babled in vain, holding without any autorytye, and agaynst learnyng, and authoritye, that the Pope ordened fyrst the bapty­me of infantes. And so ye haue [Page] won nothyng, sauyng that ye haue founde and made a rodde for your owne tayle. I meane that I haue gotten and gathe­red of your assertyon and opy­nyon, a good coniectural argu­ment, that the baptyme of in­fantes came from thapostles tymes. For ye shewed me fyrste, that Hyginus ordened the baptyme of infantes: which Hygi­nus (as I shall declare hereaf­ter) was but .xxxviij. yeares frō some of thapostles. For Vola­terane wryteth in hys boke, called Anthropologia: that Saint Ihon the Euangelyst lyued vnto the .lxviii. yeare after the passion of Christ, hys wordes are these. ‘ Ioannes longa senectute confectus, 68. anno post Christi supplicium extinctus est.’ And Christ was .xxxiiij. yeares olde, when he suffred, therefore [Page] Iohan beyng alyue .lxviij. after hys passyon, was alyue in y ^e 102. yeare after Christes byrth.

And Hyginus was 140. yeares after Christes byrth. therfore Higinus, and some of the apostles, namely saint Iohn the Euā gelist, were no more one frō an­other, then xxxviij. yeares. Whereby, thorow youre helpe. I haue now proued, that y ^e baptisynge of yonge chyldren was vsed wythin .xxxviij. yeares of some of the Apostles tymes. I haue also proued by good auctorytye, that Hyginus dyd not orden the baptysynge of chyl­dren: and that he onlye put and added to y ^e baptyme of chyldrē, chrisme, & godfather, & godmo­ther, wherfore the baptysyng of chyldren beyng before Higi­nusses tymes: and seynge he [Page] seynge he was with in .xxxviij. yeres of some of the Apostelles tymes: it is a probable, and ve­ry lykelye thynge: that the baptysyng of childer came vnto vs, euen from y ^e apostels: who were but a very shorte tyme before. Ye are disapoynted of your purpose, whych thought to haue brought y ^e baptysynge of spech­les chylder, into a great cōtēpt, & an vtter despysyng: because it had ben, as ye thought, of y ^e Po­pes ordenyng, & makyng: yf ye had not bē proued an arrāt lier. but ye are proued a lyer, wher ye sayd, that Hygynus ordened the baptim of infants, and an argument of antiquite is gathe­red of the longe contynuaunce of chylders baptyme, and of the long approbatyon of the same, thorow oute all hole Christes [Page] churche: which is more worthy to be admitted, then your supersticious opinion, whose author was that perilous heritike Pelagius: whom in thende of your boke, ye bryng in right honora­bly for a wytnes, to mayntayne your dyuelishe opinion.

But although Hyginus had ordened first, that childer shuld be baptised, yet shulde not their baptyme haue bene Popyshe, for in the tyme of Hyginius, the byshops of Rome, had not yet vsurped any supremacie ouer other Byshops: muche lesse o­uer Kynges, and Emperours. Neyther hadde the byshops of Rome brought in the dyuelyshe doctryne, wherefore theyr doc­trine was hated and called po­pyshe and dyuelyshe. In the tyme of Hyginus euery byshop [Page] was called Papa, as euery prest in hygh Almony is called pfaff: and in low Germany pape, euē vnto thys day. Wherefore the doynge of Hyginus, shuld haue no more ben called popysh, then the ordynaunce of any other byshopp, that dwelt out of Rome, ether in Asia, or Aphrica. How be it, thankes be vnto God, I haue had wytnes ynough, to proue that the baptyme of yong chyldren was not ordened of Higinus: and lo, can the baptyme of chyldren, in no wyse be called popysh, as we call suche as yow Popysh: whych, at the last ester, right Popishly knelyng, toke y ^e sacrament, geuyng occasyon vnto all men to thynke, y ^t ye were a sterke ydolater, and beleued, that bread was turned into a God. For your doyng was the [Page] ordinaūce of a lofty, and a right Antichristian byshop of Rome: whiche vsurped power, both o­uer all byshops, and also ouer al Kynges and Emperours. Al­though I haue, with the reher­sal of .vii. places of scripture, sufficiently reproued your folyshe, and monkish maner, in dilaying of baptime: your tyrannical ty­ing it vp vnto certayne tymes: and that your Cathechumeni, with their yeares of probation, are contrary to the vse of Chri­stes primatiue church, yet for to proue that youre dylaying of baptime: whereupon ye wolde groūde your erroure, that chil­der ought not to be baptised, is agaynst the scripture, and only the ordinaunce of men: I wyll shew, what men, and what coū ­cels, haue ordened all your de­layes: [Page] that al men may perceiue easely: that ye buylde not vpon Christ, but vpon Popes men, and councels. Who wolde haue thought before this, that cata­baptistry wolde haue leaned v­pon any suche foundacions? Ye hadde wont to rattel, and crake nothing but scripture, scripture but now, for lacke of scriptur, ye make these councels, and lawes of man, your foundacion. It is wryten in the Laodicen coun­cel, in the .xlv. Chapter of them that come to be baptised aboute the mydweke. ‘ Non oportet, post duas hebdomadas quadrage simae, quenquam ad baptismum suscipi.’

After twoo weakes of lente, muste none bee receyued vnto baptyme: In the same counsell, it is wrytten, of the rendrynge of the belief of them that shalbe [Page] baptised in the .xxv. Chapiter. They that shall bee baptysed, must learne the Crede: and v­pon the thursdaye of the laste weke, to ad or present them to the Byshop or elder. The La­tin wordes are these. ‘ Baptizandos oportet fidei symbolum discere: & quinta feria ultimae septimanae, uel Episco­po uel presbytero addere.’ This counsel was holden in the tyme of Li­berius the Bishop of Rome, a­bout the yere of our lord .CCC ixiiij. In the Gerunden cuncell, in the third statute, it was orde­ned, ‘ Vt cathechumeni baptizentur, die uel uigilia Paschae & Pentecostes: caeteris solem­nitatibus tantum infirmi,’ that is: that the disciples, or learners, called Cathechumeni, shuld be bapti­sed, on easter day, or easter euen or witsōday, or witson euē: Vpō [Page] other solemne dayes, let only them that are sycke be baptised This counsel was holden in the tyme of Hormisda, Byshop of Rome, in the yere of our Lord D.xiij. Siritius byshop of Ro­me: whiche lyued in the yere of our Lord .CCC.lxxxix. orde­ned in hys seconde decree, that baptim shulde not be ministred, but at Easter and Witsondaye. The latin is this, ‘ Statuit Siritius, pre­ter (quam) in Pascha, & Pentecoste baptismus non celebretur.’ This was also ordened in the fourth councell of Carta­ge: that they, that were to bee baptised, shulde shew theyr na­me, and absteyne a longe tyme from wine, and fleshe: that they shulde haue handes layd vpon theyr heades: and be oft exami­ned: and then receyue baptime. The latin is thus in the .lxxxv [Page] chapter of the foresayd counsel ‘ Baptizandi nomen suum dent, & diu sub absti­nentia uini & carninm, ac manus impositione, crebra examinatione baptismum precipiant.’ Here is the foundacion: where vpon ye buylde your delaying denyall, ye rather the blasphe­ming of the baptim of infantes. Vpon these counsels, and mens decrees, are buylded your vn­christened Cathechumeni your deuelisshe delaying of baptime: your tyinge vp of it to certayne tymes, as to Easter, and Wyt­sondaye. Here is grounded the custome of dylayinge, and dry­uynge of, of baptime: whiche ye very lyinglye, lyke a man past al shame, sayde, was in oure moste holy religion vsed, seuen score yeres: whē as al these autours and councellers, whyche orde­ned these dylays, were many [Page] yeres after the time of Hygini­us who was aboute seuen score yeres after Christes natiuite. How vnshamefacedly then ha­ue ye assygned that custome of dylayinge of baptime, vnto the tyme, that went betwene Christes natiuite and Hyginus: se­ynge that these dylayes was ordened .CC. yeres and more, after Christes byrth? Why do ye refuse to fight with me, with suche weapons, as I brought into the fielde? I brought in the sworde of Goddes worde, to defende the baptyme of chil­der withall: for I defended it only with the worde of GOD. But ye now, wryting agaynst me, fyght agaynst the baptime of chylder, wyth no scripture: but wyth customes, wyth de­crees, councels, ordynaunces [Page] of men, the autoritie of the Do­natistes, Anabaptistes, and Pelagians, all open heretikes, and worthelye condemned of Chri­stes hole churche. As for these wepons, I fet not one strawby: for all these can not preuayle a­gaynst the worde of GOD. Thynke you, that when I ha­ue defended my doctryne with scripture, that your vnsauery reasons, grounded vpon coun­cels, and men, can confute my reasons, grounded vpon the holy scripture? Whosoeuer go­eth aboute to confute scripture with councels and mens decre­es, and hys owne argumen­tes: preferreth counsels, and decrees before GOD, and his worde, and reckeneth hym selfe better then GOD. In my sermon at Thystelworth, I [Page] resoned thus strongly armed with the authoritie of saint Pe­ter, in the .x. of the Actes of the Apostels. There is nothynge that can hynder them to be baptised, which haue the holy goste chylder haue receyued the holy goste as wel as olde men: ther­fore there is nothynge to hyn­der them, but they may be bap­tised, as wel as olde folke: ye, to confute that chylder shulde be baptised, brynge in agaynste my alleged scripture, the longe cu­stom in your moste holy church, councels and decrees of Pree­stes and byshops: wherefore ye prefer them before GOD and hys open scrypture: and ree­ken mannes custome stronger, then Goddes worde, and man stronger then GOD, for that doth euery man reeken stron­ger, [Page] whyche can ouercome a­nother. Then ye confutynge my alledged scrypture, mans doctryne, haue a very euyll o­pinion agaynst GOD, and his worde, much lyke vnto the pa­pistes whych destitute of scrip­ture, fought after thys maner ar ye do now. Whereas ye hol­de that. ‘Where men and wemen of perfyt age are baptised, all the three sortes of scolares ta­ke profite of the openynge, and declaryng of baptyme: but when as childer are bap­tysed, none of them all, for ye saye, when men and wemen are baptised, all receyue admonishemēt: by which the good amend and theyr lyues, and are saued: the other knowynge, that they stonde bounde styll to amende or to be condemned.’

Ye aunswere me very fryar­ly, lewdlye, vnlearnedly, and [Page] lyingly. First it is playnly aga­inst al scripture, and reason that he that lyueth noughtely, and neuer intendeth to amend hys lyfe, after that he is baptysed (for of suche spake I) shall bee anye thynge the better by the seynge of the baptyme of men and wemē: namely, the case put before, that the thyrde sorte, ne­ther was christian in lyuynge, nether intēded to lyue any chri­stian lyfe. Can the syghte of a Sacrament alone, be it neuer so well minystred, profite hym that neuer intendeth to profit? Wyll the worke of seynge bap­tyme wrought make hym that intendeth no Godlynes be godlye? Is not thys to saye, that wheate sowen vpon a stone shal ryue the stoone, and make it brynge furthe fruyte, whether [Page] it wyl or no, agaynste the natu­re of the stone? So that ye saye wyttely, and wyselye that it profiteth al the three sortes: the is, them of the perfitest sorte, them that are vnperfit, and desire perfection: and them that nother are perfyt, nor yet intende to come to any perfection. Of the lyke foolyshnes is your saying: that where as chyldern ar baptysed, no man taketh profyt: wherof? of the chyldes bapty­me, or of the openyng and de­clarynge of our baptime, which are baptysed alredy? If that ye mene, that in that congregatiō, where as children are baptised, the declarynge of the mystery, and secretes of oure baptyme profyteth nothynge vnto such men, as the scripture calleth lytel ones, that is lowlye in [Page] sprete, and haue the conditions of yōge chylder: ye holde playnly against this open text of scripture. ‘ Declaratio sermonum tuorum illumi­nat, & intellectum dat paruulis.’ The de­claration of thy wordes lyghte­neth, and giueth vnderstāding to the lytle ones, whervpon we may gather that those, that are not lytel ones, but stubborne withstanders, can haue no pro­fyt by the declaration of Gods word, much lesse by the seynge of men and wymen baptysed. If ye mene that where as chylder are baptysed, that nother the chylde hathe any profyt by the baptym and offeryng vp of it vnto Christ: nother they that offer it vp, nother they that see the baptime ministred, take any profyt therby: ye speke agaynst the scripture. For the chylder [Page] get Christes blyssynge: yf he lo­ue chylder yet, as wel as he had wont to do: and the offerers & bryngers of childer vnto christ, in doyng of a good dede, profyt, for he that helpeth a man to re­ceyue a good turne, in helpyng, doth profit in godlynes: and namely they that pray to the lord, eyther for the bodely or gostly health of theyr neyghbour? Did not both the bringers of the children vnto Christ, and the chyl­der profyt also before Christes passion? Is he wexed vngentler after his passion, then he was before? The chyrche at the bap­tisinge of chylder, prayeth vnto God for the childe, that it maye haue forgiuenisse of synnes, and receyue the holy goste, wyl God breke his promysse, that he ma­de vnto his churche, ‘ Quicquid pe­ticritis [Page] patrem in nomine meo, dabit uobis.’ What soeuer ye shal are my fa­ther in my name, he wyll geue it. The father and mother, with the hole chyrche, prayeth for the yonge chylde, at the baptisyng of it: other they profyt, or God is false: but he is true, therefore ye ar a lyer, whiche saye, that where as chylder are baptised, that nother the chylde, nor any that, ar there at the baptim, and offer the chyld vnto Christe, with theyr prayers, profyt any thynge at al. What more profyt shal the seers of the baptym of men and wemen, take thereby then the seers of the baptime of chyldern? Seyng that all that is doone to olde folke, is also doone vnto chylder: & the word of GOD as well al red, and preched at childers baptim, as [Page] at old folkes baptime: they that are at the baptisyng of chylder, profyt as muche, as they that are at olde folkes baptym. Where as the sygnes and Sacra­mentes are al one: & the worde of GOD is alyke preached: the­re cometh vnto the herers, and seers lyke profyt: except GOD be a regarder of persons, and be better vnto olde men, then vnto chyldern: whyles he graunteth profyt, and grace to the seers of olde folkes baptyme: and none at all to the seers of chylders baptyme: but God regardeth no persons, therfore ther is lyke profyt, in seing of other of both. Of lyke thyngs ought to be ly­ke iugement, then when as baptym is all one in signification wyth cyrcumcysion: and they that see chylder cyrcumcised, [Page] haue as muche profyt by the se­ing therof, as of the seing of old folke circumcised: so the seers of the baptyme of chylder haue as muche profyt thereby, as the seers of the baptyme of olde fol­ke. In the beginning of your boke, ye saide that I rehersed the .iiij. tymes redyng of statu­tes in colledges, to proue that yoing specheles childer might and ought to be baptysed: whi­che sayinge, howe false & lying it was, I haue sufficientlye proued. And nowe lyke a deuyll, that for hys purpose turnethe hym selfe into all colours and fi­gures: here ye say, that I applie the costom of readyng of the scolars statutes, that infātes shuld haue the declaration of baptym preached vnto them. These are your wordes. [Page] ‘☞ Therfore to rede the statutes to infantes is of no exemple nor value, but to them that be growen it is an occasion to get scolers.’

¶ Couche, of thy conscyen­ce (yf thou haste any at all) tell me whether thou knoweste in thy conscience, or no: that I re­hersed, and applied the reading of scolares statutes: vnto the baptysyng of yong chyldern: or that specheles chylder shoulde haue baptyme opened vnto thē by preachynge: or els that I brought that custome furth in very deede: to shew them, that were my hearers (amonge the which was not one specheles childe) that it were as necessary for them, to haue theyr baptime opened, and declared by prea­chyng: as it was necessarye for scolars, to haue theyr statutes [Page] at certayn tymes to be redde a­mong them? If thou knouwest not this in thy conscience: ether the deuyll hath blynded the wyth malice, or thou art so vn­learned, and folysh: that thou art more worthy to haue a muk forke in thy hande, then a pen to wryte agaynst any mā: seyng the matter is so clearly set out, without any rydles, or para­bles. If thou doest know in thy conscience: that I rehersed this example, nether to proue the baptyme of chylder wyth all, ne­ther that chyldren shulde haue baptyme declared vnto them: and that onlye they, that can vnderstand, and the openynge of baptyme, shoulde haue it de­clared to theym: what deuyll art thou possessed withal which to defende thy folysh opinyon, [Page] writest vtterly agaynst thy conscience? But thys minisheth my meruelynge, that I cal now to remembraunce: whiche chaun­ced vnto me at Anwarpe. I reasoned with one of your secte, at Anwarpe: who was learned in the Latyn tongue, a doctor of phisicke, and a greate Alchi­miste, when as we wete both chafed, and heted with the long disputation: he defending heresye, and I confutynge thesame: at lenght, I toke hym with a shamfull lye, and with suche a contradiction in his tale: that he coulde not deny, but that it was so. But howe dyd he ex­cuse hym selfe? verelye thus. It is wryten, sayeth he, in the xviij. of the Apocalyps: that we shuld handle the, and such as thou art, the whors chylder of [Page] Babylon, with lyes, cōtradicti­ons, and all other suche lyke, for the reuēgynge of the lyes, that ye haue made vnto vs in tymes past, the wordes of Ihon, sayeth he, are these. ‘ Reddidit illi, sicut & ipsa reddidit uobis, & duplicate ei duplicia secundum opera eius.’ That is, Rendre, or gyue agay­ne vnto hyr, as she hath rendred to you: and duble the duble vn­to hyr, accordynge vnto hyr workes. And when I alledged the scripture vnto him, that the lying mought kylled the soule: he answered, that it was true in such, as me that had no fayth: but that it was not so in hym, that had the true fayth, and was of the true religion: alled­ging this place of scripture for hym. ‘ Si quid lethale biberint, non nocebit eis.’ [Page] yf they drynke any dedly poysō, it shall not hurte them, and ex­poundyng it thus: there can no lyinge, nether any other sin, whiche is poyson, vnto your sou­les, hurt vs, which beleue as we bo. Terfore seyng that ye call me, and al other, that defend the baptym of chylder, papistes, that is the chylder of the hoore of Babylon: and separate your selfe both in the supper of our Lorde, and also in baptyme, and in the vnderstandyng of origi­nal sin, from vs: and make your selfe of an other religion: it is no meruel, that ye handle me euen so here in Englād, as your brother catabaptist handled me in Anwerp. And whete as men haue such conscience, that they care not what they do, so that it be done secretly vnto any mā [Page] of another religion: whether it be yeoperdous for me, and ex­pediente for the rulers of this realm, to haue such nere hand or no thē: I reporte me vnto all wyse, & godly mē. Much vayne bablynge, and vnprofitable communication, as vnworthy any aunswere, do I pasouer: and come vnto the place, where as ye say: that baptym is to my in­fantes (for so do ye call them) and vnbeleuers, a vayn & bare sygne, vnfruitfull and vnprofi­table: except I wyll gyue, and assygne vertue vnto the worke wrought. Where as ye make all infantes myne, because I take in hand tho defende theyr bap­tym: I may a great dele be lesse ashamed of my poore, and inno­cente infantes, then ye maye be, to defende the doctryne of your [Page] sedytions, and mourderynge Anabaptistes: which destroyed the noble citie of Munster, in Wesphali: and rose vp agaynst the Magistrates, in Amster­dam: and wan Swol, not far from Dauenter: and were a­bout to haue destroyed Gro­nynge, in West Freselande. Let the innocentes be myne styll, and let the factious cata­baptistes be yours. Let se, who shal be more ashamed in the great daye of them, that they defende. But seynge ye wyll nedes make the infantes myne, I wyll defende them as well as I can: for as much as euery man is bounde to defen­de it, that is hys. My infan­tes are not vtterly withoute all faythe, as ye meane, cal­lynge them vnbeleuers.

This wyll I proue by your owne maner of alledginge the scripture, in the middes of your boke agaynste me. What soeuer is not of fayth, is synne, nothyn­ge that the infant doth, or thin­keth: wheter it sukketh milke, or drynketh bere, or ale, or cho­weth flesh, as ye holde, is of fayth, for fayth is of heatynge, and heatynge cōmethe by that worde of GOD, then they the heare not the worde of GOD, as chylder do not, can do no­thyng, of fayth, wherfore by your own alledging of the scripture, the childe doth nothynge: but it synneth in doynge, what so euer it dooth, for lacke of fa­yth. But that they sin not in all thyng, and that they ar not without all fayth, I proue it thus. They please GOD: therefore [Page] they at not without al fayth, for Paule sayeth: without fayth it is impossible tho please GOD. That spechelesse chylder, haue pleased GOD: Iacob, Hieremy the Prophete, and Iohan the Baptist are wytnesses. So ar also the chylder, that Christ to­ke in his armes, wytnesses of the loue, that Christ bare vnto chylder. Marke wytnesseth, that Christe toke the chylder in to his armes, and blyssed them. If that he blyssed thē, they pleased hym, If they pleased hym, they were not without faith, ye do therfore the poore innocen­tes great wronge, in callyng them vnbeleuers. At the chyl­der vnbeleeuing? Ye say, yea, then haue they that vnbeleeuinge, and want of faythe: ether of their first creation, or by Adās [Page] fall. yf that they haue it by their fyrst creation: it is not true, that God sayd, that all thyng whych he had made, was verye good. Is an vnbeleuyng man verye good? Is that good, whych can not please God? If that chyl­dren be vnbeleuyng by Adams fall, then haue we found agayne orygynall synne, which ye with your mayster Pellagius do vt­terly deny. Ye saye that they are vnbeleuyng, and wythout faith: but how proue ye that? If ye say: I se no workes yet in childrē: therfor, they haue no faith: I axe yow, whether ye are a beleuer, or vnbeleuer, when ye are a slepe, and at al tymes, whē ye do no good workes? yf ye do beleue, when ye are a slepe, and at other tymes, when ye do no good workes: so maye chyldren [Page] haue faith, although they be not yet come vnto the tyme of de­claryng of fayth by theyr wor­kes. Is there any man so folish, or so cruel, that wyll call a yong gryfte of the fyrste yeres gryf­tynge fruytles, and barrō: whē as it can not for lacke of tyme & age, brynge as yet furth anye fruyte? If that we can not call a tree vnfruytefull, vntyll the tyme come of bryngynge furth of fruyte: so ought ye not to call a chylde vnbeleuyng, & faithles: vntyll he come vnto the time of declaryng his fayth. I axe you. ‘ Estne puer animal rationale, an non?’

Whether is a chylde a rea­sonable liuing thyng, or no? If ye graunt, that he is an vnreasonable creature: then ye make a chylde, a brute beaste, yf that a child be a reasonable creature, & [Page] yet can not for lacke of time and age, vse reason: so maye a chylde haue fayth, and be called fayth­full: though for lacke of tyme and age, it can shewe as yet no good workes: whych are the tokens, and fruytes of fayth. If ye reason that they know not, that they haue fayth, therefore they haue no fayth: I reason wyth you agayn chylder know not, y ^t they are redemed wyth Christes bloude: shall we saye therfore, that chyldren are not redemed with Christes bloud? Chyldren know not, that y ^e pro­mys of saluatyon belongeth vnto them: shall we say therefore that the promys of saluatyō perteyneth not vnto chyldren? Is not y ^e heyre of landes heyre, be­fore he knowe, that he is heyre? So maye a chylde haue fayth, [Page] and yet for lacke of age knowe not, that it hath it. Because ye alledge the scrypture hereaf­ter, generallye, and delyuer it from all cyrcumstances: ye must suffer me to reason wyth you after y ^e same maner, at this time. Answer me to this argument. Children are not already condē ned: therfore they do beleue. for the scripture sayth, he that bele­ueth not, is condemned alredy. Therfore ye must ether graūt, that chylder do beleue, or elles, that they are already condem­ned. Chylder also haue the holy ghost. Is y ^e holy ghost wythout fayth? They haue all thynges, that Christ hath: for they are Christes. & he that spared not hys only sonne, as Paule sayth, but delyuered hym vp for vs, (and for chylder as well, as for [Page] old men) it is impossyble, but y ^t he gaue all thyng vnto chylder wyth Christ. how can chyldren be faythlesse, whych haue all, that Christ hath? Was Christ without fayth? Now, whether your (I say) or my argumentes are worthy more credence, let them that are faithful men, iud­ge indifferently. But what yf I graunted you, that chyldren had no fayth: yet it dyd not fo­low, that y ^e infantes shuld haue no fruyte of theyr baptyme. For our infantes are in as good a case, as the infantes of the Ie­wes were in the same age, that oure infantes are of. But thou­gh they hadde bene wythout fayth, yet had they receyued theyr cyrcumcysyon wyth fruit and profyte, euen so thoughe oure chyldren were wythoute [Page] fayth, they shulde receyue their baptyme w ^t as great fruyte, as the Hebrues chylder receyued theyr circumcisyon. for that is baptim vnto vs, that was cyr­cumcision vnto y ^e Iewes. Our baptyme, and the cyrcumcysy­on are all one spirytually, and in signyfycatyon, and onely do differ in the elementes. Al they that were receyued into the cō ­naunt, made to the fathers of y ^e olde testament, were cyrcumcy­sed, and therby were receyued into the felowship of the commō promys: so all they that are re­ceiued into the couenante made to vs of the new testament, are by baptyme receiued into oure church & feloship: and haue it among vs as a seale of Goddes promys vnto vs, as the Iewes had cyrcumcysyon as a sygne of [Page] theyr couenaunt among them. Cyrcumcysyon requireth a cyr­cumcysed hart, and a new lyfe: & that all they that are cyrcumcysed, shuld mortifye all carnall affectyons, noughty lustes, and fleshlye desyres. Therfore the prophetes laying to the Iewes charges, y ^t they aunswered not vnto theyr profession, call them vncyrcūcysed in y ^e harte. Ther­fore doth the lord speake thus of the Iewes. Leuit. 26. I shall bryng them into their enemies land: that then at the length, theyr vncyrcumcysed hart may submitte it selfe, and humble it. Hieremy wryteth thus vnto y ^e Iewes. Be ye circūcised vnto y ^e Lorde: and take awaye the vn­cyrcumcisyon of your hart. And almlghty God in Moses spake after the same maner. Deut. 10. [Page] Circumcyse and cut away the skynne, or vncyrcūcision of your harte: and harden youre necke no more. In all these places is mortifycatyon requyred of the cyrcumcysed: as Paule in the syxte to y ^e Romanes requireth mortifycation, where he sayth. Do ye not know, that all we y ^t are baptysed into Christ Iesu, ar baptysed into hys death? Therfore we are buryed wyth hym thorow baptime into hys death: that as Christe was ray­sed vp from the ded, by the glo­ry of the father, we shuld walke in newenes of lyfe. Then as circumcisyon layd vpon the spech­les chyldern of the Iewes is a professyon of mortificatyon, and profiteth the chyldern: not for y ^e worke wrought, but for the commaundementes sake, and pro­myse [Page] of God: So is the sacra­ment of baptyme layd vpon our yonge chyldren, a professyon of mortifycatyon, and profyteth them not thorowe the wrou­ght worcke it selfe, but thorow the promysse of GOD and hys worde: and the promysse that he made to hys holy churche: and the prayers made by the churche. ye say that. ‘☞ When as men and wymen are baptysed, all men take admonyshmēt, by whych the good amend their lyues and are saued.’

¶ When as men, and wymen are baptysed, I axe you: whe­ther they that are baptysed are saued thorowe the promys of God made vnto them, or tho­row theyr worthynes of recey­uynge of baptym: or by y ^e worke [Page] wrought in hearyng or seyng of the admouyshement, that commeth of baptysynge of men, and wymen: If ye saye: that your men, and wymen haue re­missyon of synnes by receyuing of baptyme at such an age: then do not they receyue forgyue­nesse of synnes, and the hery­tage by the promys, but tho­row a worke wrought so wor­thely in such an age. If they ha­ue the herytage, and forgyue­nesse of synnes by the promys: then chylder hauyng the pro­mys as well, as men, & wymen, maye haue remissyon of synne, when as they are baptysed, as well as olde folke. For GOD hath no respecte of persones, & regardeth not one age more then an other. Do not ye gyue vertue to the worke wrought. [Page] when ye say that men are saued by the admonyshment, of seyng men & wymen baptysed? Wher dyd God promyse that y ^e seers of men and wymens baptyme, should be saued therby? Where did God orden, that the only se­yng of baptim should cause men amend their liuyng, and therby be saued? yf God made no suche promys: why do you gyue ver­tue of saluation, vnto the worke wroughte: whych God neuer ordened any saluatyon to come by? Who is now the iusticyari? Who is he now, that geueth not only vertue, but also the vertue of amendmēt of lyfe, and salua­tion, to the work wrought of an onloker, & onli a sear of baptim? What deserueth an old man, by hys cyrcumcysion in hys age, more then a chyld deserueth by [Page] his circumcision receiued in the viij. daye after hys natiuite? If neither of both deserueth more then another: the olde man de­serueth by hys baptisyng in his age no more then a chylde deserueth by his baptime receiued in his infancy. Furthermore: whē as the promisse of saluation perteyneth as wel vnto childeren, as to men, and wemen: it must nedes folowe, that the sygne of the promys belongeth as well vnto childer, as to olde folke.

But baptime is the sygne, or sacrament of the promisse, that GOD made to vs of the newe Testament: therefore baptyme belongeth as wel vnto chylde­ren, as vnto olde folke. If that ye denye, that the promysse of saluation perteyneth as well vnto chylder, as to olde folke [Page] (as ye dydde ones in my cham­ber, reasonynge wyth me) I wyll proue it thus: saluation belongeth as well vnto chyl­der, as to men, and wemen: and no man commeth vnto the herytage of saluacion, but thorow the promys: as Paule witnesseth. Gala. ij. ‘ Si ex lege est he­reditas, non iam expromissione. Atqui Abra­hae per promissionem donauit deus.’ If that the heritage, that is the kyngdome of heauen commeth thorow the lawe, then it com­meth not of the promys. But GOD gaue it vnto Abraham by the promys. And so all o­ther bothe Abrahams poste­rytye, and they that are of the Heathen receyue the heritage, as Abraham dyd. Then when as the herytage commeth by the promys: none can haue the [Page] heretage, that hathe not the promys: but the specheles chil­der haue the heretage, there­fore they haue also the pro­mys of the heretage. If that chylder haue the promys, and the couenant, and the thynge promysed by the couenaunt: why maye not they haue the sygne, or seale of the couenant as well as the infantes of the Iewes hadde the sygne and seale of theyr couenant: Is the Baptyme of water grea­ter, then the thynge whyche is sygnifyed by the Baptyme: is the garland of Iuy better, then the Wine, whyche is sig­nifyed by the garlande? When as childrē receiue the holy goste the heretage of the kingdom of heauen, forgeuenes of origenal [Page] sinne by Christes blode, and are made membres of Christes bo­dy: why may they not receyue the Sacramēt of baptim, whi­che is an holy sygne and seale of these thynges? maye we not receiue the lesse, when we haue receiued the greater? yf that ye deny the kingdome of heauen, and the heretage therof to per­teine vnto childer (as for to con­firme your opinion ye wold not stik to do) for ye deny as greate a'thynge as that: I wyll proue that the heretage doth pertey­ne unto them. Iacob, Hieremi, and Iohan the Baptist, beynge chylder hadde the heretage of the kyngdome of heauen: and the chylder both of the Iewes and also of the chylder of the Christianes haue the promys of the heretage, as these places [Page] folowynge do testyfie. I wyll make stronge my cumnant, be­twene me and the, and thy se­de after the, in their generaci­ons, in a continuall comnant: that is to wyt, that I wyll be a GOD vnto the and to thy sede after the. And agayne in the .xxij. of Genesis. In thy se­de shall all the nacions of the earth be blissed. In the .xliiij. of Esaye is thys prymis. I wyll poure oute my Spirite vpon thy sede, and my blessyng vpon thy buddes. And Peter in the second of the Actes speketh of a playn promis in these wordes The promys was made vnto you, and to youre chylder, and to all that are far of, whome so­euer the Lorde oure GOD shall call. Lo, here is playne mention made, of the promys [Page] made vnto chylder. Then when as GOD perfourmeth all that he promyseth: and he promysed saluation vnto chil­der, it foloweth, that they haue y ^e heretage that GOD promysed them, then doth the heretage and kyngdome of GOD perteyne vnto them. Why do you so vncharitably wyth hold the sygne and seale of saluation from chylderen, to whome the heretage belon­geth? Who gaue you any such authoritie, ye proude and pre­sumptuous tyrannes: as to make wardes of the chylder of GOD, and to wyth hold from them the sygne and seale of theyr fathers heretage. Now where is all your scrip­ture: whyche ye boost that ye defende youre errour wyth­all? [Page] aunswere vnto these scrip­tures, and confute them, yf ye can. Where as ye saye after­warde, that nother the syg­ne of Chrystes Supper, no­ther the raynbowe sygnyfy­eth anye thynge to chylder: ye are farre oute of the waye. The breakynge of the breade in the supper, and deliuerynge of it vnto the congregation be tokeneth: that Christes body was broken for all them that shal be saued: and that the ver­tue of his passion shulde be delt to all them that are elect, and chosen to be saued. Thē when as childer are elect and chosen to be saued, is the misterye of Christes supper, no signe of sal­uation vnto childer. Doth not the rayne bow signifie to al the worlde, that the world shal no [Page] more be drowned wyth water. Doth not that promis, that the worlde shuld be no more destro­yed wyth water, perteyne vn­to chylder? If that the promys perteyne vnto childeren: how happeneth, that the signe of the promys signifieth nothyng vn­to them? It must nedes signify vnto yong childer, as well as to olde men, that they shall not be drowned wyth an vniuersall sloude, as the worlde was o­nes destroyed. So dothe the baptysynge of chylderen syg­nifie, as well vnto chylder: that Christ dyed for them, and ro­se for them, as it sygnifyeth the same to olde menne. For all althoughe they see not the sygne and knowe not of the sygne: yet maye they haue it as surely, as thei haue the thing [Page] sygnyfyed by the sygne.

Almyghtie GOD made a couenaunt and promysse, not onely vnto menne, but also vn­to byrdes and bestes: that they shuld not be drowned with the vniuersall fould. Genesis .ix. Beholde (sayth the Lorde) I make my couenaunt wyth you and wyth yoursede after you, and wyth euery lyuynge soule that is wyth you, as well foul, as cattell and beestes. Thys shall be the sygne, whyche I geue betwene you and me and euery lyuynge soule why­che is wyth you. I haue set my bowe in the cloude: and it shall be a sygne a sygne of the couenaunt betwene me and the yearthe. So, that when I bryng cloudes vpon the yearth the bowe shall appeare in the [Page] cloudes: and then wyll I thynk vpon the comnant betwene me and you, and all lyuyng crea­tures.

Fyrste I gather of thys pla­ce that the comnant of GOD is profytable, not onely vnto them that haue the vse of rea­son, but also vnto byrdes and vnreasonable bestes, although they knowe, nothynge at all of the promys. I gather also, that the sygnes of Goddes comnaunte, are sygnes vnto byrdes and beestes: and not onely sygnes, but profytable sygnes vnto them: althou­ghe they neuer see them, nor vnderstande theim. Where­upon I gather that the holy sygne of Baptyme, is not o­nely a signe vnto childer of re­mission [Page] of synnes, and of God­des fauor toward them, but al­so a fruitful & profitable signe. For how can the sygne of the raynbow be more profytable vnto vnresonable beastes, and byrdes, then the Sacramte of baptyme is profytable vnto yōg chylder? seyng that GOD promysed as well saluation to chylder, from hell, death, and damnation, and made baptyme the sygne thereof, as he promy­sed vnto beastes and byrdes safegarde from general drowning, and made the raynbow the to­ken sygne or seal of the same. Here is your sayinge, that the raynebowe is noo sygne vnto chyldern, proued playne false, and contrarye vnto the open text of Goddes holy word.

Where is the great clerke that, sayde, that I should not haue Winchester in hande, when I had hym in hande? as thoughe he had passed Wynchester so far in wyt and learnyng, that ther were no comparison to be made betwene them. Here myght ye be ashamed, yf ye hadde anyō shame at all. Here myght your disciples be ashamed of suche an vnlearned and dotynge scole­master. Is the seale of a childes landes no seale vnto hym: because he hath no knowlege of the seale, and knoweth nothynge therof? What soeuer ye aun­swer, the seale is euen a seale vnto chylder: and when they come to age, they clayme theyr lands therby. Euen so is baptyme a seal of remission of synnes vnto chyldern, although they know [Page] it not. And when they cum to age, it shal be an assurance vn­to them, to clayme the promiss of God by: ye haue been therfo­re to bolde to bable of these matters: where in ye haue very lyttelle skill, And pronoun­ce as boldelye, as though ye were syttynge vpon Apolloes trestell. Let youre I sayes, ha­ue autorite amonge your bewitched scholars, as much as ye wyll: but they shal haue none with me, excepte ye can proue your saying true by the scripture. Ye axe me, why is baptym not differred, as wel as the supper of the Lorde? A mā might answer you, y ^t they wer lyke to be lurched at your gluttenous supper, yf that they were with you: for ye wolde haue at the supper of the gluttenous catabaptistes [Page] (whiche ye call the sup­per of oure Lord) befe, mutton, vele, capons and such harde meates, as the pore sucking childer can not eat: and therfore it were no wisdom that thei shuld suppe with you, vntyl theyr teeth wer growen. If that I had bylded my opynion vpon doctores, and stories, as ye do yours. I coulde haue broughte manye places both oute of the doctours, and stories: which proue that it was the custome a .M.CC. yeres ago, to gyue the Sacramente of CHRI­STES body and blud, only in bred and wyne, vnto the yōg chylder streyght waye after ba­ptyme. But because I ground my opinion only vpon scriptu­re, I wyll aunswere you by scri­pture. The supper of the Lorde [Page] requireth a doer, and it is an ac­tiue Sacramente, For Christ sayeth. ‘ Accipite, edite, bibite, facite in mei recorda­tionem.’ Take ye, eate ye, drinke ye, and do ye thys in the remembrance of me. Then when as the chyl­der can not receyue the Sacramēt, and can not eat, drynk, nor do that in the supper that God requireth, that is to eat, & drink in the remembraunce of hym: it is mete that chylder be dyffer­red from the supper vntyl they may, and can eat and drynk and receyue the supper, as Christ or­dened it to be receyued. And because baptim is a passiue Sacrament, & no man can baptise hym self, but is baptise do [...] an other: & childer may be as wel dipped in to the water in y ^e name of Christ [Page] (which is the outward baptym and as myche as one man can gyue an other) euen as olde fol­ke: and when as they haue the promisse of saluation, as well as old folk, & can receyue the signe of the same as wel: there is no cause why that the baptyme of chylder shulde be differed. CHRIST dyd not baptyse hymself, but Iohan the baptist baptised hym. In the second of the actes and the .x. where as manye were baptised, no man baptysed hym felf: nother do we rede in any place of the new Te­stament: that any man baptised hym self, then when as baptym is gyuen by other: and the sup­per of the Lorde is taken of a man by hym self: it foloeth not that baptym ought to be differ­red so longe, as the supper [Page] ought to be differed, Wee reade in the actes of he Apostels, that all they that came into the fe­lowshyppe of Christes churche, entred in by baptym, and dyd not cōmunicate streighte waye after they were baptised. All­though I grant with in a shorte tyme after, they receyued the supper of the Lorde, as many as were able to receuer it. Then when as chylder perteyne vnto christes churche, it is mete that they entre in by the same dore, that olde folke enter in by: then oughte they not to be holden out from the churche, vntyll they may allso receiue CHRI­STES supper. Baptym is the putting on of CHRIST, as Paule sayeth. ‘ Quotquot baptizati estis, Christum induistis.’ As many of you as ar baptised, [Page] haue CHRIST put vpon you, Is it conuentent that the pore infantes shalbe naked, and want CHRIST vnput vpon them, vntyll that they come to the .xiiij. yeare of theyr age? Howe shall they come worthy­lye to Christes supper, and haue not CHRIST for they gar­mēt? Therefore they must fyrst put on Christe by baptyme, and then afterward at conuenient tyme, receyue the Lordes sup­per, I shewed that water pre­supposed vnclenes in all that ar baptysed: and I set the sygne of the water, as an argumente agaynst thē of your sect, which deny originall syn. But ye saye, that I haue proued nether of both, vnlesse I proue that Christ ordeded that chylder shulde be baptised. To proue that the water [Page] in baptyme, signifyeth the impurite of them that are Ba­ptysed. Ananias sayde vnde Peter, ‘ Exurge, & baptizare, & ablue peccata tua.’ Ryse vp and be baptysed and washe away thy synnes, saynt Paul calleth baptym the bathe of regeneration and the bath of water, wherby the churche is made clene. In all thes places ye hear mention of wasshynge and water, and of scouryng by the water, wherfore that wa­ter of baptysme signifyeth that they that are baptysed, haue nede of washynge, and are vn­clene, yf they be chyldern, and haue committed no actuall syn, then it folowethe, that they are defyled with originall syn yf they be commede vnto per­fyt age, that then they ar spot­ted [Page] both with originall and ac­tual synne. The former part is proued. The other parte I pro­ue thus. Baptym signifieth in all them that are baptysed, that they are vnclene, and haue ori­ginall syn, but chyldern are baptised, therfore the water signi­fied in theyr baptym, that they are gyltye of original syn, seyng that they haue commytted no actuall as yet. If ye saye that chyldern are vnworthlly bap­tysed, therfore the water of theyr Baptyme, condemneth them not of originall synne, and wanteth the sygnyfication, I answer that the vnworthynes of the receyuynge of the Sa­cramente, hyndereth not the sygnification of it, allthought it be both vnprofytable, and also damnable to the receauer, [Page] of vnworthelye. When as a noughtye mane receyueth the Sacramente of CHRIS­TES bodye vnworthelye, doth the brekinge of the bread leue of sygnifying that CHRI­STES body was broken for that synfull and vnworthy re­ceyuer? Therfore baptym in all that ar baptysed, betokeneth that they are gyltyl of originall syn at the leaste. Where as ye saye, that for lack of scripture I am faine to flye vnto rryginall syn to proue the baptym of chyldern: I praye you what scripture haue ye broughte, sence the beginninge of your boke, to pro­ue the contrary? Whether I haue broughte any scripture for the probation of my opynion, or no I reporte me vnto the rea­ders of my sermon, and of thys [Page] booke also. Where as the com­maundement is generall, and perteyneth vnto an hole speci­all kynd it perteyneth to euery one, conteyned vnder the spe­ciall kynde, althoughe the par­ticular be not expressedly na­med as in thys example, if that all men be resonable lyuynge creatures, then chylder are al­so resonable creatures: because they are conteyned vnder the name of a man, thoughe they are not expressed by name in the generall. Or els yf that were not true, howe shoulde ye proue, that wemen, shoulde be saued: that wyues, wydo­wes, and maydens shoulde re­ceyue the Lordes supper and be baptysed: seynge that the apostels haue no expressed commaundement of GOD, ney­ther [Page] the women shulde be bap­tysed nother be receyued vnto the supper of the Lorde. Wherfore excepte ye wil exclude and shyt out wemen from the sup­per of the Lorde, and from baptim, because there is no expres­sed word to commaunde them to be baptised, and to receyue Christus supper: ye cā not shyt out ceylder from baptime. For chylder are as well conteyned vnder thys worde nations: as wemen bee, in thys generall precepte, teache all nations, and baptyse them into the na­me of the father and the sonne, and the holy ghoste. If that ye aunswere, that preachyng and Baptysynge be tyed together, and they oughte alwayes to bee doone together. I reade that Chryste sayde vnto hys [Page] Apostels. Mar. xvi. preache ye the Gospel vnto euery creatu­re. If thys worde creature do signifie here man: then are the Apostels (when as baptime is vnseperably ioyned with prea­chynge) bounde to baptise all that they preache to: and they are bounde to preache to all men, therefore by youre reason they are bounde to baptise all men. Chylder are men, there­fore the Apostels are bound to baptise chylder and to preache vnto chylder. If that ye saye that preache the Gospell, vnto all menne, is to be thus vnder­stande: preache the Gospel vn­to all men that can receyue the preachyng: then is the lyke ge­nerall precept, baptise all men so to be vnderstande: that they are to be baptised, whyche can [Page] receyue baptime. But the chil­der of the Christians canne as well receiue the ouer baptime whiche is the dippyng into the water in the name of Christe. as the infantes of the Iewes could receyue the sacrament of circumcision: Then are childer as well to be baptised, as olde folke are to be preached vnto, and to be baptised. Ar we now so destitute of scripture, to pro­ue that infantes maye be bap­tysed, that we are fayne to fly for helpe to original sinne? Whē as I proue by that, that chyl­der haue originall synne, that they hadde nede of the bath of water and regeneration: do I flye from scrypture? is the matter of origynall synne no part of scripture? you do holde that there is none at all, and [Page] therefore that the childer nede not, nother ought to be bapty­sed, vntyll they be .xiiij. yeare olde: before whiche tyme, they haue done many actuall syn­nes, whyche hadde nede to be wasshed awaye, wyth the bath of baptime. Therefore it is no meruell that ye exclude origi­nall synne from scripture, as a thing whiche can not be found in scripture.

In youre nexte question, ye make as wise a reason, agaynst me: as ye dyd in the begyn­nynge of youre booke, dyuerse times. This is my reason, that ye go aboute to confute and o­uerthrowe.

As for the vse of water is, to clenge and scoure thynges that are vncleane, and sygni­fyeth where it is brought that [Page] there is some thynge, whyche nedeth to be made clene, so in oure baptyme the water doth signifye vnto vs, that there is some vnclennes and fylthynes in our nature, that had nede to be washed. For thys cause I may sett the water in our bap­tym for an argument agaynst them, that say that men as soone as they be borne, haue no origi­nall synne. But let vs se your argument agaynst thys my say­ing. ‘☞ Is that a suffycyent cause to proue orygynall synn to be in infantes, because ye offer them water?’

¶ I aunswer, y ^e baptim of infantes being lawfull, & godly, as I do presuppose it: thē y ^e water of baptim (which vnfaithfullye ye cal onli water, leuing out of baptim) must nedes signifi vnto childer [Page] that they are vnclene. But when as they haue committed no actuall synne, and are yet synnes: it foloweth, that they haue origynall synne: excepte there be mo synnes, then ac­tuall, and originall. But nowe let vs heare youre hole argu­ment, wherewith ye intende to boxe me. ‘Is that a sufficient cause, to proue ori­ginall synne to be in infantes because ye offer them water? Then is it as sufficient to proue that the Turkes and Iewes, wyth al the rest of the people of the worl­de haue it not, nor are infected therewyth because ye offer it not vnto them.’

I aunswere vnto thys argument, by shewyng the like: how stronge, and myghtye thys of yours is. Preachyng of Gods [Page] worde presupposeth, that ther, where it is preached, men are infected with originall and actual synne. but ye offer no preaching of Gods word, vnto y ^e Iewes, Turkes, and vnto the rest of y ^e infydeles in the world: therfore ye recken, that nether Turke, nor Iew, nether any other infy­dele hath, ether originall, or ac­tuall synne. If that ye thynke, that all the aboue rehersed infi­deles haue both originall, and actuall synne. for all that ye of­fer them no preachynge: so I thynke, that the forsayd infyde­les haue orygynall synne, not withstandyng, that I offer thē no water. In your next reason, ye presuppose it, that I dyd ne­uer beleue, sence I hadde anye knowledge in y ^e scripture: that is, that the water of baptyme taketh [Page] awaye the vnclennes of y ^e soule: but well wot I, that y ^e ho­ly ghoste worketh onelye that worke, and no creature in the worlde, I knowe, that Christes hole baptyme, that is, both the outwarde, and the inner toge­ther, purgeth both bodye, and soule. And I do fynd in dyuerse places of the newe Testament: that it hath pleased GOD, to graunt forgyuenesse of synnes, by the inwarde baptyme, when the outward baptyme was mi­nistred, that the thyng signyfy­ed shulde agree wyth the out­warde signe, and sygnyfyca­tyon.

Peter sayd in the second chap. of the actes. Let euery one of you be baptysed in the name of Iesu Christe, to the forgyue­nes of synne: and ye shall re­ceyue [Page] the gyft of the holy ghost. Peter also sayeth. Acto. x.

What lette is there, that these be not baptysed in water, whyche haue receyued the ho­ly ghoste, as well as we? And Luke telleth, that the meany of Cornelius receyued the ho­ly ghoste, and were contynentie baptysed with water. Ananias also, in the .ix. of the actes, say­eth vnto Paule. Brother Sau­le, the lorde, whom thou sawest, in the way, hath sente me: that thou shouldest receyue thy sy­ght agayne, and be fylled wyth the holy ghoste, and immedia­telye, there fell from hys eyes, as they had bene scales: and he receyued hys syghte, and rose, & was baptysed, ye se now, how that God ioyneth in hys word the two baptymes together: so [Page] that the outwarde baptyme is not a vayne signe, and to be dis­pysed: as ye seme to do: where as ye axe: how can water hele the woundes of the soul. But leaste ye saye, y ^t I alledge your mynde falsely, I wyll rehearse your wordes, as ye wrote thē. ‘☞ But nowe I saye, that all the worlde hath synned, and is defyled in Adā. Howe nowe, wyll water scoure awaye the fylthe of thps corruptyon? No. It is a wounde, receiued in the soule, and is washed away, but wyth the only fayth in the bloude of Christ.’

¶ Ye say here, that all y ^e world hath synned, and is defyled in Adam. and yf ye meane no sub­tylte, and vnderstande by the worlde, both the electe and the other lykewyse: ye graunte o­penly orygynalle synne, whych [Page] in other places ye haue denied, and do denye: as hereafter we shall proue, both by your saying and doynge. If that all y ^e world hath synned in Adam: thē haue also yonge chyldren synned in y ^e same. and ye saye, that the cor­ruption of Adam can not be scoured awaye wyth anye thynge, sauyng only wyth the fayth in the bloud of Christe. Ye saye also, that no chylde hath fayth: and therfore call all infantes, vnbeleuers. It foloweth of youre sayenge: that ye are of that opy­nyon, that all the chyldrē which dyed, sence the begynnynge of the worlde, vnto thys daye, dyed vnpurged from the fylth of the soule, and wythout for­gyuenes of origynall synne. Whose rewarde, seynge that it is the death of the soule, and [Page] euerlastynge dampnatyō: here­vpon it maye be gathered, that ye are of thys opynyon, that all chylderen are in the state of dā ­natyon: and that, yf they dye, they are all dampned. For thys argument maye be clearelye, and truely gathered of youre owne sayinge.

¶ None shall be scoured frō the corruption of orygynall synne, but suche as haue fayth in the bloude of Christe. But all chylderne wante fayth in the bloude of Christe: as ye teache both openlye, and pryuelye. Therfore by you, no chylderne are scoured from the corrupti­on of orygynall synne.

¶ Wherevpon it foloweth: yf these sayinges of Paule be true: Euyll was broughte by [Page] lynage into all men, by the tre­spasse of one man, vnto con­demnatyon: The rewarde of synne, is death: By Adam all men do dye, and by one manne, synne entred into the worlde, and thorough synne, death, as farre furth as we haue all syn­ned: that all chyldern (whych as ye holde, are vnbeleuers, and therefore can not be pur­ged for lacke of fayth in Chri­stes bloude) muste nedes be damned. Whych opinion, howe wycked it is, and howe contra­rye vnto the holye scrypture: lette the chyrch of CHRIST gyue sentence. Haue ye not taught holsome lessons in youre boke, wherof suche a damnable conclusyon foloweth? Are ye not worthye to be dubbed a doctour of heresye? If ye be not [Page] I can not tell, who is. Wher as ye say: that water cā not scoure the soule. because orygynall syn is a wounde receyued of the soule: ye seme to mene, that the bodye shall not be damned for orygynall synne, as a thing that neuer receyued it.

Is it not agaynst iustyce, that they shoulde be condemned to­gether, whych were not conioyned in the dede doynge, that deserued damnation?

¶ Ye holde in youre nexte sen­tence a maruelous opynyon: whyche is thys. ‘It is to be vnderstande, that thoughe synne be common to all, yet baptyme is not common to all.’

Whych sentence semeth not to be true. For to whomsoeuer preaching is common, to y ^e same is also baptyme common.

For preachyng, and baptysyng are ioyned, and commaunded together, in these wordes. ‘ Euntes docete omnes gentes, baptizantes eas.’

Go, and teache all natyons, baptysyng them. Then is bap­tyme, as common as preaching is: hut preachyng is common to all▪ therfore is also baptyme common to all: though all wyll not receyue it. For a man ha­uinge seuerall grounde ynough of hys owne, oft tymes putteth no cattell into the comon: all­though hys parte is as commō vnto hym, as vnto anye other man. Are the feldes no more cō ­mon vnto a man, after that he enioyeth no longer the profyte of the common feldes? Answer me wyth scrypture, as I do confute yow wyth scrypture: and let your arrogant, I says, [Page] (whyche ye haue wythin thre leues of the begynnyng of your booke in the stede of scrypture boldly brought in thre tymes) goo, shake theyr eares. For thoughe ye haue inchaunted your wretched scholars, so that they beleue, that it is the gospel, whatsoeuer ye say: yet are ye in no such autoryte, maister doctor with me, y ^t I wyll beleue your, I say: when as ye bryng neuer one text of scrypture, to bylde your I say, vpon. Well I deny the doctor, saye what he wyll: and set these textes of the scrip­ture agaynst hym: Paule wry­teth vnto the Romanes thus. As by the trespas of one man, euel was brought by lynage in­to all men to condēnation: so by the rightuousnes of one, good came vnto all men, to the iustifycation [Page] of lyfe? Then is iustifycation as comon, as condemnatiō: And baptym is as cōmon as iu­stifycatyon is: then is baptyme common vnto as many as sinne is common to. Saynt Ihon sa­yeth, that Christ obteyned mercye for our synnes. and not on­ly for our synnes, but for the synnes of the hole worlde. Lo here is mercy and remyssyon of syn­nes, as generall, and as commō, as synne is. And baptyme is common to all, to whome remissyon of synne is common: for baptym: is the seale of forgyue­nes of synnes: and so he that maketh the one common, maketh also the other common. youre meruelous sentence therefore, will not stand with scripture. Of lyke folyshnes is youre con­clusyon, that foloweth: that is, [Page] that baptyme is to be offered to all men: yet is it not to be gy­uen to all men, nor to be taken of all men. Whosoeuer offereth anye thynge to anye creature, and intendeth not to gyue the same, mocketh the creature: as when the Popishe priest, sayeth vnto hys parishoners, ‘ Accipite, & comedite,’ take ye, and eate ye: and gyueth them nothyng, but ea­teth all hym selfe: mocketh hys parishoners. And ye captaynes of catabaptistrye, offer baptyme vnto all chyldren, and intend not to gyue it vnto them.

Therfore ye mocke all chylderne: lyke as boyes mock yong byrdes, and yong chou­ghes: whyles ye offer vnto thē baptyme, whych ye neuer in­tende to gyue them.

¶ For the confutacyon of [Page] the laste parte of your sayinge: that is, that baptyme is not to be taken of all men: I aske you, whether mortification, and re­generacyon ought to be taken of all men, or no? If that morti­ficatyon, and regeneratyon ou­ght to be receyued of all men: and true baptym is true morti­fycation and perfyt regenera­cyon: then ought all men to re­ceyue baptym. That baptim is mortyfycacyon, and regeneracion: Paule beareth witnes to y ^e Romanes in the sixt Chapter: and vnto Titus, the thyrd chapter: and in other places, whych I might here reherse, if I thought not these sufficient. And so is your sayng false, that all men ought not to the baptysed. But what if all men ought not to be baptised? What hindereth that [Page] baptisyng of yōg childrē? What if many wicked persones be not worthy, to receiue y ^e seal of saluaciō: I mean y ^e outward baptime: because thei wilfulli, & willingly refuse mortification, & w ^tstand y ^e word of God: shal their vnwor­thines make y ^e innocent childer, whō Christ hath wasshed w ^t his bloud, vnmet & vnworthy, to receiue y ^e sacramēt of saluatiō, & regeneratiō, & y ^e seal of the promis which god made vnto thē? Thē this sayng of yours, y ^t al mē ou­ght not to receiue baptī, proueth nothing y ^t chylder ought not to be baptized. here may al mē se: y ^t your ground y ^t ye wold make, is but sande, & falleth, whē it is but lightly touched, & that y ^e worke, y ^t ye wold bylde vpō your fundaciō can fynd no fast groūd, to rest vpō. Wherfore ye ar not lyke to prosper in your purpose.

baptim, say ye, is onli dew to the elect churche, chosen in Christe Iesus, before al worldes: What maketh this agaynst the christening of yōg childer? I thāk yow for ye help me with argumētes, agaynste your false doctrine. For if baptim be only dew vnto y ^e elect churche, chosen in Christ Iesus before al worldes: then is baptim dew vnto al the mēbres, & sparkes of y ^e same churche: but chylder ar membres, & a part of the elect churche. Therfore baptim is dew vnto thē. What nede vs now to dispute any longer in this matter, seyng that by your own sayēg, baptim is dew vnto childer, as the membres of Christes elect churche, chosen befor y ^e worldes? Is baptim only dew to the elect and chosen? if that be so: your brether anabaptistes of munster did wrong, whē they [Page] baptysed so many deuilishe and reprobat persones of your sect: that they by theyr myght and strenght, put down all lawfull magistrates, and rulers there, and set vp a Kyng among them selues: which had .xvi. wyues, were these murderers and dis­pisers of goddis ministers, of y ^e elect chyrche? was thys kyng ryghtly regenerate, and a mor­tifyer of hys membres vpon earth, which had so many wy­men, to exercyse hys fleshly lust vpon? were not your rebapty­sing brethern, which were slayē in Amsterdā, whē they thought to haue murdered the magistrates and gouernores of the cyti reprobate and of a falsly preten­ded, and fayned repentaunce? And yet ye saye: that baptyme ought only to be geuen vnto [Page] suche, as vnfeynedly wyll amēd theyr lyues, whereby ye make a conclusion, that chylder ought not to be baptysed: because ye cannot perceyue, whether chyl­der entend vnfaynedly to amēd theyr lyues, or no: & know not by theyr lyuyng, whether they be chosen, or vnchosen. Thys is one of the chefe argumentes, wher wyth ye go about to ouer throw the baptysyng of chyl­der: whiche is after suche a ma­ner formed: that it taketh as wel away the baptim of old folk as of chylder, for if that ye wyll baptyse none but suche as, ye know whether they be elected, and vnfaynedly repent or no: ye shal as well holde al olde folk from baptym as yong chylder, for no man can know the harte, nether of olde mā, nor childe, sa­uyng [Page] only God, as it is wrytē ij. Pararipo. vi. ‘ Tu solus nosti cor filiorum hominum.’ Thou knowest onli the harte of the sonnes of men then may all they that ar baptysed feyn and counterfet repentance & amen­dement of lyfe before the elders which baptise, and intend no­thyng less as Symon Magus and Iudas Dyd in the Apostel­les tymes, & in our tymes suche swarmes of Anabaptistes of your sect, whiche were baptised after the .xiiij. yeare of ther age, and afterwarde committed hordom robry and shamefull mur­der in the aboue rehersed cities: and yit was noman able, sauing only god, to iuge whether they were chosen or vnchosen: whe­ther they intēded to amēd theyr lyuyng or no, at y ^e tyme of theyr [Page] Baptime. Ye say that infantes ought not to be baptised becau­se we cā not tel whether they be of the elect chyrche or no, and whether they ar fully amynded to amēd theyr lyuing or no. Take yow .iiij. men of .xl. yeares of age to baptise, & let me take .iiij. infantes of .iiij. dayes olde: tell me how that ye know that your iiij. men of .xl. yeares, ar more elect and chosen then I know y ^t the .iiij. children ar elect & cho­sen: seing that the scripture is playn, that no man can tel, what an other man intēdeth or what is in hys harte. Then when as acordyng vnto the sayng of S. Paul .i. Corint. ij. No man kno­weth the thynges whyche per­teyn vnto man sauyng the spi­rit of man whych is in hym: no mā can tel whether an oldeman [Page] be more electe then a chylde, then if olde men ought to be ba­ptised, not with standyng that noman knoweth whether they be worthy loue or hatred, and be chosen or vnchosen, it shal not hyndre but that chyldern may be as wel baptised as olde folke, ye say in your next assertiō that, ‘Remission of sin is offered to all: but al receyue it not.’

¶ I wyll now try your spirit whether it is stedfast or vnsted­fast and wauering or no, ye sayd a litle before that. ‘Baptym is offered euen to as many, as wyll vnfayneoly amend theyr lyues: euen as is remission of synnes.’

¶ In which place ye make bap­tym and remission of synnes all alyke comō: but remission of sin­nes is comon to all men, both to & olde meton chylder: and that [Page] I proue by your owne sayng, whych is that remission of syn is offered to all. For it that is offered to all, is comō to all: therfore by your own sayng it fo­loweth that baptime is comon to all. And if it be comon to all, then is it comon vnto chyldrē. How doth now youre spirit a­gre with it self, that sayd a litle before: that baptim was not co­mon to al: & now saith it the cō ­trary wherupō it foloweth ne­cessarily, that baptim is comon to al. How do these saynges of yours agree together: remissi­on of finnes is offered only vn­to them that wyll vnfaynedly amende theyr lyues, as baptim is offered: and remission of syn­nes is offered to all, but all re­ceyue it not. In the one place ye offer remission of synne on­ly [Page] vnto them theat baptim is to be offered to, that is to thē that wil repent: and in the other vn­to all, Is not here a prety argument? thys is the spirit whiche ye receiued in the wood, wher as ye tolde me that ye learned w ^tout any doctor your diuinite.

I gather also of this your sa­yng, where ye saie, that remissiō of syn is offered to all, that re­mission of sin is also offred vnto childer: and to whom soeuer re­missyon of syn perteineth, bap­time also perteyneth, as it may be plainly gathered of youre o­wn wordes aboue rehersed: but remission of syn is comon to all: therfore is also baytym comon vnto al: why shulde not he haue the signe which hath the thing. Now is your saing that baptim is not comō vnto al, onis cōfuted [Page] againe. This do I aske you be­cause ye say that remissiō of syn is offered vnto al: whether re­mission of synne is offered vnto any, sauyng vnto them that be­leue: and whether beleese cum­meth only of the hearing of goddes worde or no. If that forgy­uenes of syns only be to be offe­red to them that haue faith, and saith be only offered vnto them that heare the word: how haue the Turkes and the other infi­deles remission of synnes offe­red vnto them, when as they want the word of God wher of cummeth fayth, whiche only as ye graunt, the promys of re­mission of synnes? Then muste ye shew in your aunswere, how that remission of synnes is of­fered to the faythles and vnbe­leuynge Turkes, whych wane [Page] the instrument whereby fayth is offred and ingendred. This do I only wryte to put you to youre proue: ye are so full of youre generall conclusyones, if that y ^e church sanctified in the word of Christ by faith only receiue remission of sinnes (as ye write here in thys place) & if it be trew that ye did hold before that childer are faythles & vn­beleuing: it foloweth y ^t chylder receiue no remission of synnes, by your saing: is not this to cō ­demne all childer, or els to say, that childer haue no originall syn? whether this be holsū doctrine or no, let Christes church be iuge. As for your argument that ye bring next here after I deny the antecedēt, if ye meane of such faith as cā declare it self by good workes: for the childer [Page] obtein remissiō of synnes by the blood of Christ: althouge they haue no such faith as you do require in them: your argument is thys. ‘Thys I say (wher is now) Hec dicit dominus) the remissiō of synnes is offered to all: but all receyue it not the: churche sanctisyed by faith in the blood of Christ only receiueth it: and vnto thē only bap­time belongeth: therefore none ought to receiue it but such as haue not only heard the good promises of God: but haue also thereby receyued a syngular consolation in their hartes through remission of synne whiche they by fayth haue receyued: For yf any receiue baptim without theis per­suasion, it profiteth hym nothyng.’

I haue proued suffyciently before that the Iewes circum­cisiō was thesame, & of thesame effect & strength with thē: that baptime is to vs. But the chil­der [Page] of the Iewes hauynge, no more fayth then oure children, and being no more sanctified by faith in the blood of Christ then ours be, and haue receyued no more consolation of Goddes promisses then our children ha­ue done: obteyned forgyuenes of synnes and haue taken wyth fruite the sygne and seale of the same, I mean their circumcisiō. Wherevpon I gather yf: that the Iewes childer, were wyth­out faith, and were only sancti­fied by the promis and mercy of god, and not by theyr own faith or any thing of their owndoing and wer not withstanding law fully receiued in to y ^e felouship of the faithful church by circūci­sion, and obteined forgiuenes of sinnes: then whē as God regardeth nomore a Iew then a gen­til, [Page] and hath promised as wel to be a god to the childer of the be­leuyng Gentils, as of the bele­uyng Iewes: the childer of the faythful Christians receiue re­mission of synnes by the promis and mercy of god, before the vse and exercise of faith, and are as lawfully receyued by baptim in to the felowship and the chuche of the saithful christians, and to the partaking of forgyuenes of synnes, as the Iewes chylder were receiued in to the Iewes churche, and were made parte­ners by circumcision of the pro­mys and forgiuenes of synnes. Now must ye ether deny y ^t god is so good vnto the chrystyans childer as he was vnto the Ie­wes childer, or els that our chil­der haue remissiō of sinnes, & ar as lawfully baptised, as y ^e iewes [Page] childer were circumcised: not withstanding that our childer be not as yet for lack of age, cū ­men to the vse and exercyse of faith. Ye hold & repete in thys your reasō an opinion & a false heresy against the opē scriptur. ‘That Sacramentes do not profit them whiche heare not the promys, and knowe not what it meaneth.’

For the confutacion of thys I aske you whether the Iewes childer, which nether heard the promis made vnto Abrahā, ne­ther receiued any cōsolation by it, shuld haue ben saued frō hell and dānation if thei had depar­ted two daies after their circū ­cisiō, or they shuld haue not ben damned: & if that any of thē had died vpon the .x. daye with out circumcisiō: whether thei shuld haue ben dāned or saued? If ye [Page] answer with the scriptur y ^t not withstanding that they knewe not the promis nether heard a­ny time of it, that (God which said, I wil be thy god & the god of thy sede after y ^e) was for his promisses sake a God, that is a sauioure vnto thē that had the sacramēt of circumcision, & was a iuge vnto thē that died vncir­cumcised, as to the breakers of his couenāt, and therfore to be cast out and rooted furth from theyr people: then haue ye wri­ten agaynst scripture, where ye holde that none can haue any profit of sacramentes, excepte they vnderstande them, heare thē and haue consolation ther­by. I nede not here reherse the story of the raynbow, which ye cal your self a sacrament, wher by I proued that euen the byr­des [Page] and vnreasonable beastes had profyt all though they ne­uer heard the promiss, nor knew that it was a Sacrament: for I haue intreated of that mater largely here before. your argu­ment, I trust, now is confuted & all the false doctrine that ye in­tended to byld vpon the same. now wyl I let the reder se your next argument, and answer to it as well as I can. ‘Christe had his disciples to preach the confortable tydynges to euery creature of mankynde: but he neuer had baptise other then such as at theyr preachiryg wold be­leue.’

¶ Christ sayde vnto his disciples preache the gospel to euery creature, but he sayde not prea­che the gospell to euery creatu­re of mankynde, as ye do say sin doyng where of ye committ I dolatry, or at the leste a graet of­fence [Page] agaynst GOD, after your own iugement your argument: childer ought not to be baptised because Christ neuer cōmanded in the scripture expressedly thē to be baptised: and so because Christ sayd not expressedly preache the gospell to euery creatu­re of mākynde but sayd as saynt marke writeth. ‘ [...]’ that is prea­che the gospel vnto euery crea­ture, ye do wrong to say which is not expressed in the scripture in the stede of euery creature of mankynde. If that ye aunswer to be vnderstād, euery creature of mankynde, & take vnto yow autorite to vnderstande y ^e scrip­ture as ye thynk best: why may not I in this text. ‘ Euntes, docete omnes gentes baptizantes eas.’ Vnder the name of al nationes [Page] vnderstand yong specheles childer, as ye vnder the name of e­uery creature vnderstande euery creature of man kynde, seing that a childe may as wel be vn­derstanded, vnder the name of nationes, as man kynde may be vnderstanded vnder the name of al creatures? If that Christe bad hys disciples preache the gospell vnto euery creature of mankynde, what kynde are yong chylder the creatures of? of horse, bulles, or hogges, or of mankynd, yf they be creatures of mankynde: then must they haue the worde preached vnto them by your interpretation: is not thys interpretation a prety one that it had also nede of an other interpretation? Myght ye not as well haue sayd to all kyndes of men of euery nation [Page] that can vnderstand prechyng? Because ye shal not thynk that your argument is sure & strong where ye reson that Christ bad not hys Apostelles by expressed wordes baptise chyldern: ther for they ought not to baptyse chylder: I make such lyke negatiue argumentes of scripture: whych if they be not sure but false and folishe: then seyng that of lyke thynges lyke iugement is to begyuen, your negatiue ar­argument is both vnsuer false and foolishe.

Christe neuer commanded yow, to were a ryng on your finger, and be cause it shuld not be smothered vnder your gloue, to make a wyndow to let the ayre cum in to it, I dare not say that it myght be seene, nether cōmande he yow to syng in his church [Page] any pypyng Christe neuer com­maunded prycksong or any be­sy discant: therfore ye offend to be a curious musician.

GOD bad his disciples ne­uer expressedly in hys scripture preach that wymen shulde cum to te communiō: therfore ought no woman cum to the commu­nion.

GOD neuer in his worde expressedly commaūded his A­postelles to suffer suche tal men as you bee to lyue syngle: therfore your curate doth wrong to suffer yow to lyue syngle.

Christe neuer commaunded any Christen men to differ the baptym of theyr chyldren vnto the .xiiij. yere of theyr age you do therfore wrong to differ the baptisyng of chyldren vnto the xiiij. yere of their age.

If these be not good argu­mentes made euen after the sa­me maner of yours, that is ne­gatiue: then is yours, a nough­ty argument to say, Christe ne­uer bad Baptyse infantes ex­pressedly: therefore chylderen ought not the baptysed.

If they be good argumen­tes: then all the conclusiones that I gather, are true, and so ar ye a fals man and a perillons heretike.

When as ye say that, ‘By baptym alone is no saluation but by baptyme and preachyng:’

I aske you, whether ye mea­ne hole baptyme, that is bothe the inwarde, and the outwar­de baptym togyter or the out­warde baptyme a loue.

If ye meane of the inwarde baptym and outwarde bothe con­ioyned together: ye hold an opē heresi agaynst the scripture, for thus wrytethe the Apostell of CHRIST saynt Pet. j. Pet. iij. few sowles that is to wit, eyght, were saued in the arke throw the water: to the figure where of, baptyme at this tyme answering, doth now lykewyse saue vs. Paul also the elect ves­sel of GOD, gyueth vnto the right & holy baptym clengyng, and the hole man, and also saluation, Ephes. v. husbandes loue your wyues as Christe hathe loued hys churche and gaue hym self for it, that he myght hallow, and clēge it by the bath of water thorow the word, and Tit. iij. But after that y ^e good­nes and loue of GOD oure [Page] sauioure towarde vs appered, not of the workes that ar in the righteousnes which we did, but accordynge vnto hys mercy sa­ued vs, throwe the bath of the new byrthe, and the renewyng of the sprite. Paule also graun­teth that baptime is of suche ef­fect, that the receyuyng of it, is the receyuing and puttynge on of Christ: is not Christ saluati­on? and doth not baptim bring Christ? Paules wordes ar the­se. As many of you as are bap­tised, haue put Christ vpon you Then when as Peter doth ex­pressedly gyueth saluation vn­to baptim, and Paule like wise, your erroure is open and seene of all that haue any eyes to se withal. The perfit baptim hath Christ, it hath the holy gooste likewise: for thei that ar right­ly [Page] baptised haue the holy goste and Christ put vpō thē. Is not this baptim able to saue alone: wherin is Christ with his holy spirit? if ye meane by this word baptim, only the outward bap­time: I graunte you that by it commeth no saluation alone, ye moreouer that, it is no parte of saluation: but that it is onely a signe & a certification of our sal­uation. But then ye shall in to right popistry, for ye fall that of preachyng, and baptyme mea­ning of outward baptime com­meth saluation: preachyng is a worke of mā, in opening of god­des word, and the outward baptim is an outward worke, then if these twoo together bring saluation: then workes bryng sal­uation. How far are ye syr, now from popistry whych call other [Page] men papistes farther from papistry then ye are nere vnto the verite? Christ sayeth Mar. xvi He that beleueth and is bapti­sed shall be saued: but he sayeth not he that heareth the worde of god & hath only the outward baptime layed vpon hym, shall be saued: ye haue be like autho­rite of youre woode spirite to make new textes of scripture, and to bylde thereupon what ye lyst. Other haue ye none. If preaching & baptim be the mea­nes to saue and damne the hole worlde by? how proue you that baptime is ordened to damne men wythall? let vs heare one word of scripture of you to pro­ue this strange opinion withal. But least any man shuld thinke that I reherse y ^t ye neuer wrote I will write your awn wordes [Page] ‘By baptime alone is no saluation, but by preachyng baptim, & certaine it is, that God is able to saue hys chosen Churche wythout thes meanes: But thys is hys ordynary waye, to saue and damne the whole worlde, by namely by offeryn­ge remyssion of synnes and baptime to all the worlde, that thereby the beleuers maye be absolued from all conscience of synne, and the disobedient and vnbele­uers bounde styll other to amende or to be damned for he that beleueth not is all redy damned.’

The offeryng of remission of sinnes and of baptim is, not the law, whose office is to condēne, but it is the glad tidinges whi­che we cal the Gospel: ye are so vnlearned and so foolyshe in your reasonyng, that ye are vt­terly vnworthy to be reasoned wythall, so that it hath repen­ted me ofte sence, that I began to write: y ^t I troubled my selfe [Page] wyth such a bungler. But leste your bablyng & boosting, shuld bringe any simple people out of the way, I wyl not disdayne to opē your folishnes, & to bewray your abhominable heresies. Saint Paul vnto y ^e Romanes iij. sayeth: by the law cummeth the knowlege of syn. In the .iiij Capter he sayeth that the law worketh wrathe, and in the se­uenth chapter. I haue not knowen sinne but throw the law, so that it is the office of the law to shew syn and to condemne the worlde, wherfore ye do against al scriptur to trāslate & remoue the office of the lawe vnto the moste comfortable offeringe of remission of syn, and to the most sure seale and signe of our saluatiō, baptim: is the ende or office of offering of remission of sinne [Page] is to saue & make blessed, for thei are blessed sayde Dauid whose sinnes ar forgiuen. What is the Gospel or glad tidinges, els but the offering of remission of syn­nes? Did not Christ commaun- hys disciples to preache repen­taunce and that the kingdom of heauen was at hande? dyd not the angel bring in the tydinges of peace? was not remission of synne offered where peace was offered? What other thyng did the Apostels els then offer re­mission of synne vnto theyr au­ditores? Christe commaunded them to preache the Gospell, and thys Gospel or gald tydin­ges, was remission of synnes. How can then the offerynge of the Gospell whyche was orde­ned to saue the worlde, bee a meane to damne the worlde? [Page] How can baptime whyche was ordened to bee an instrument of salmation: be an instrument of damnation? The offeryng of remission of synnes is the offe­rynge of an holsum medecine: Baptime is, as it were a confor­tatiue, vsed to bee gyuen vnto the syk after purgations. Who is he, that hath the comon wyt, that wyll saye, yf a foolyshe sy­ke man refuse an holsum me­dicine, with a confortatiue: and he die for lacke of medicine: that the offerynge of the medicine, wyth the confortatiue was the meanes, whereby thys man came vnto hys deathe? Yet doo ye thys: whyle ye make the offerynge of remyssyon of synnes, to bee the meanes, whereby GOD dampneth and saueth all the worlde by. [Page] If faith do iustifie (as oft times ye graunt wyth open mouthe) then doth infidelite condemne: and it is the meane, where by the worlde is condemned, as Christ witnesseth: he that bele­ueth not is condemned already Lo here is condemnation assigned vnto vnbeleue: and nother to the offerynge of remission of sinne, nother of baptime. Then may it easely be spyed how, vn­learnedly ye alleged thys text: he that beleueth not, is con­demned already: to proue that the offerynge of remyssyon of synnes and baptime, is meanes bothe vnto saluation and con­demnation: namely when as Christe, immediatly before she­wed the meanes of saluation in these wordes. He that wyll be­leue and be baptised, shall be sa­ued. [Page] What wood spret taught you this folish philosophy: that one cause shuld bring lurth two diuerse and contrary effectes, as ar saluation & condemnatiō? It is a great maruell, to se such great arrogantie as ye haue, to be ioyned wyth so lytle know­lege. But so are thei al, that are blasted with the Anabaptistical sprit, as you be. If that I could haue made no other shyft, when ye argued with me that al Turkes and Iewes were withoute origynall synne: because they had no water offered vnto thē: I might here by youre helpe in this place haue answered thus: ye say that remission of syn and baptim is offered vnto all: then when as baptim is not without water: water is offred vnto al, thē by your own graūt, all haue [Page] originall synne: whyche ye de­nied stoutly before: because sum wanted the offeryng of water. To that ye say the Gospel hath no powre vpon infantes, and muche lesse sacramentes, & that therfore nother preachyng nor administration of sacramentes ar dew to infantes, by the word of god: I meruel what ye mean by hauyng power. If ye meane by hauynge power ouer, to be­longe and to be profitable: your sayng is twise false: for both, the word of God belōgeth vnto in­fantes: presently, by the reason of the promys whyche is made vnto thē in the worde, and it is dew vnto thē against thei come to age, as a chylder landes are dewe vnto him, thoughe he can not inioye them afore he come to age: that the administration [Page] of Sacramentes ar dew vnto chyldren: the Sacrament of circumcisyon, and the rayn bow are witnesses agaynst you, and proue yow ar a fals & a shameles lyer: therfore who wyll beleue yow hereafter? no mā, but such as haue delyte in lyes and abo­minable heresies.

Youre conclusion, agreeth as well with your antecedēt, as thys argument doth: folowe a staff standeth in the corner: ergo a man rinneth: and it is of such a fasshon made, that I dowt whe­ther it be more folyshe vnlear­ned, or more malicious: for it presupposeth, that I brought in to proue that childer had originall synne a brushe: when as made mention of a brush, not to pro­ue that chyldren had origy­nall synne, but for a similitude, [Page] after this maner. Euen as, whē one bryngeth a mā a brushe that is commed home from hys ior­ney, it is a signe that his clothes ar dusty so, when as water is offered vnto thē that ar baptised, it is a token, that they had nede of scouryng and clengyng and ar vncleue. Nether dyd I hol­de, that water dyd scoure the sowle: but I shewed, that the water betokened, that the sowl of thē, that were baptised, had nede of scowryng. Then let all christian, and learned men iuge, how learned and charitable is this your conclusion. ‘So that your brushe proueth the conta­gion of infantes, as ruyche as your water: and helpeth alyke to scoure the same.’

¶ After this your vnlearned and malitious conclusion, ye begin [Page] a new mater, & feyn a sayng of your own braine, as thoughe I had sproken it, and them ye scourge me for your foolishe, da­wishe and vnlearned lyinge: for after these my wordes.

Well it is good to remede a diseas in the beghinnyng, and to stay hys course: lest at lenght it grow ford far, that it be past remedie or help. ‘It is spoken lyke a Phisition: and that maketh yow, to lay a playster of colde water to the synn of infantes, so tymely: But suerly out of dew tyme, and other to parly or to late, for they ar wors after­warde.’

¶ Is not thys a prety fashion of confutyng: for lack of scriptu­re, reason and learning, to feyn, lye and scof, after thys maner­ye ar, lyke to wyn but a few sco­lares, [Page] that ar honest men, after this maner. All myghty God, in the olde Testament, know­inge that the infātes of his peo­ple wer sike in original syn, gaue them the medicine of remissyon of synnes: commāded that they shulde haue circumcision layde vpon them, as a seale, and token of goddis promised and fauour vnto them.

That all myghty GOD promised the chylderen of the Iewes remission of sinnes, the­se wordes do testifi Genes. xvij. I wyll streynge then my cumnant betwene me, and the, and betwene they sede after the, in theyr generationes, with an e­uerlastyng cōnant: that I may be a GOD vnto the, and to thy sede. Then to bee a God is to be a sauiour: but he sayde he [Page] wolde be a GOD vnto the chyldren of the Iewes: therfo­re he promysed that he wold be a sauiour vnto them. So that the promyss of saluation belon­geth as well vnto the chyldren, as it perteyneth vnto theyr fa­thers. It is expressedly decla­red in the same chapter, that the loue of GOD was so great vnto chylderen, that he not on­ly graūted vnto chylderen sal­uation: but also the seale and sygne of saluation the Sacra­crament of circumcision: as these wordes bear witnes. Thys is my comnant whych ye shall kepe, betwene yow and me, and also betwen thy sede after the: let euery male be circumcysed among yow.

But ye shal circuncyse the fleshe of your forskynne whiche [Page] shall be the sygne of the coue­nant betwene yow and me, and they ought to be circuncysed: that my couenant myght be in your fleshe.

If GOD be true (as he can not befals) there the yong chylderen obteyned it, That GOD promised: and that was remissyone of synnes, whych was the promised blissyng, and that GOD commandeth the sygne and seale of remission of synne to be layd vpon chyldern, this is also certayn. Then whē ay all myghty GOD the ar­chephisiccon, and heler of both body and soule began, so tyme­ly and erly to heale yong chyl­dern: no godly man wyll mock Christes ministres, while they lay vpon the infantes of the christianes the sygne of saluation, [Page] of remission of sinnes, after that almyghty God hath heled thē from originall syn as well as he heled the childer of the Israeli­tes. If that ye deny that y ^e chil­der of the Israelites were hea­led, ye must deny that God pro­mysed to be a God, vnto them. If they were healed, thē ar our children also healed by thesame physician, as erly and tymely as the Iewes chyldren were hea­led, seyng God loueth the Chri­stianes chyldren as well as he dyd the Iewes chyldren, and hys promis of helth and salua­cion was as well made vnto our children, as to the Iewes chylder. All chylder ar infected with originall synne, whiche if it were not taken away, should turne them to damnacion: then to offer vp chylder vnto Christ, [Page] that they may receyue at the cō templacion of the prayers of y ^e church, and for the promis that God made vnto them, remissiō of theyr originall vnclenenes, is that to tymely don when as they ar conceyued in wykked­nes and borne in synne? But I know your meanyng well. ye ar of that mynde that ye thynke that chylder haue no synne, and that therfore ye re­ken that they nether nede god­dis physik, nor any seale of hys promis, whiche mygh [...] comfort them when they cum to age. And for thys cause it is lyke that ye wyll haue none bap­tized vntyll they be of four­tene yeares of age, that then your brether poysoned, wyth many a damnable synne, might be heled by baptyme and by [Page] preachyng as thoughe before that tyme, that they neded no Physik of GOD our princi­pall Phisician. Chylder of one daye haue nede of the Phy­sician Christe or no: If they ne­de none of Christe, he dyed not for them. If they nede Christe the Physiciane, when as they be but one daye olde: It is not to erly nor to tymely to cary the chylder by the prayers of the churche vnto Chryste, that he may hele them. And when as the offerers vp of the chyl­der, trustyng vnto the promys of GOD, that the chylder ha­ue granted vnto them remis­sion of theyr originall synne, do lay vpon them the sacramēt of baptī, do they any otherwise vnto their childer thē y ^e Iewes [Page] sumtyme the people of God, did vnto theyr chylder after the cō ­maundement of God: Then we nede not greatly care for your vnlearned, and hethenish moc­king of Christes holy sacramēt, callyng it in mockage a playster of colde water. Who dyd orden this cold water? dyd not Christ orden it? If ye be a christiā and not a Luciā, why do ye mok it? shall y ^t excuse you when ye shall saye that I grāt that it is Chri­stis plaster, but that it is to ty­mely layde to? ought Christis sacrament to be mocked & law­ghed to scorn, because a foole layeth it to, out of tyme? Take hede what ye do, for Iuliane y ^e apostata, as proud a mocker as you be, payed derely for hys mockyng whē he cast his blode in to the ayer, and sayde vnto [Page] Christ ‘ uicisti Galilaee’ thou hast won thow man of Galile. If that an Hethen man should haue sayd vnto a priest of mosis law whē he circuncised a chylde: what nede ye syr surgean, to cut thys chyld before he be sik. I befoole such surgeanes, as leue y ^e chyl­der worse then they foūd them: thynke ye that GOD would not punishe this prophane mocker? ye suerly: then thynk you to scape fre, whiche would: be rekened a christen man, and yit mok baptim the ordinaunce of Christe? I think no. And where as ye say that y ^e chylder ar wor­se, after their baptim then euer they were before: it appereth that ye mene that y ^e sacrament of baptim is an euel thyng. for if ye ment that it were not euell, why shulde ye say that chylder [Page] baptized ar worse after theyr baptim then they were before? After thys your Poeticall fey­ning ye bring in a clerkly cōclu­sion whiche ye bylde vpon your own cōmunication, & therwith a reson as wytty, and wise as y ^e former was, and as wel it agre­eth with it that goeth before. giue eare vnto this new orator ‘For I heare of a poke that is now be­gynnyng to spryng vp, not of a romysh pok, but of an other deuelysh pok, as euell as it. Medice cura te ipsum. The deuelysh pok whiche is syn is not healed but tho­row faythe.’

Now syr I pray yow tell me by your rhetorik & logike how foloweth this saīg w ^t it y ^t goeth before? for me think it foloweth not. ‘It is spoken lyke a phisicion & that maketh yow to ley a plaster of colde wa­ter to the synne of the infantes so tymely, but suerly out of dew tyme, and other to [Page] yearly or to late, for they ar worse after­ward then euer th [...]y were before. For I heare of of a pok that is now begynnyng to spryng vp. &ce.’ This gear is scarse clerkly cou­ched together, and yit ye wil be rekened a great clerke. But I wyll pas ouer your art whi­che I can not fynde in yow, and I wyll try your sentences, whether they be any better then your compositiones ar or no. ye say y ^t ye heare of a pok, y ^t is now beginnīg to spring vp, & ye say immediatly afterward y ^t the poke ye meane of is sin. That is in begīning to spring, y ^t was ne­uer before: thē if [...]yn be now be­ginning to spring, as your wordes suppose it to do, it is lyke y ^t ye ar of y ^t opiniō y ^t before this ti­me there was neuer any syn. If this do not folow of your sayēg: [Page] I am far deceyued & appele vn­to y ^e iudgement of all mē which haue but y ^e cōmō sence, whether this foloweth of your saīg or no

Where as ye say, medice curate ipsum, that is to say Phisiciā hea­le thy selfe, ye reken ye haue don a clerkly worck in speakyng so mych latin vnenglisshed, and in applying of a prouerbe so pro­perly. But how litle it pertey­neth vnto thys present purpose euery wise man may easely per­ceyue. As for me although I am a Physician, called to hele mennis bodies, whiche thyng by the help of my Lorde God, I haue oft do [...], I neuer presu­med to be an heler of mānis soul w ^t my phisik but w ^t Chrstis phi­sik. & although it pleaseth sumtimes almighty god to hele diuerse dedly siknes in mēs soules by [Page] me & suche like and to call them vnto fayth, to true repentance, and so consequently to y ^e health of y ^e soule, yit do we not take our selues to be Physicianes & hea­lers of the soules, but onely the chefe physicians seruātes, & on­ly giuyners vnto the sik soules suche medicines as our master hath cōmaunded vs, not beyng so bolde as to deuyse any Phy­sik at all of our own braynes. Then to say vnto me, Physiciā heale thy selfe is as much to say as thou which art a phisicion of the body, go and playe Goddis parte and hele thy own sowle. Thys is the counsell, not of the spirite of God: but of the wood sprete, who taught yow yowr diuinite. If that ye had bene well aduised, ye wolde not haue made your self a cōpaniō w ^t the [Page] murderīg scribes, & pharises, in vsing their churlish cheke agaīst one of Christis mēbres: whiche they threw out agaynst Christe him self. But what win you by your chek? haue ye proued any thīg therby? nothīg at al sauīg y ^t men may know y ^t ye ar wel sene in doggishe eloquēce. Ye haue, sence y ^e beginning of your book vnto this place, said more thē iij times, y ^t faith alone taketh awai sinnes in whiche places ye haue erred shamefully, if ye mean by only fayth y ^e only work of bele­uing. For if y ^t ye giue iustificatiō vnto y ^t work, of beleuīg not meaning y ^e whē ye say faith iustifieth y ^e mercy of god promised vnto vs, by Christis blood iustifieth vs, & haue a respect only vnto y ^e dede of beleuīg: ye ar a iusticiari w ^t y ^e pope, & y ^e old pharises: whose [Page] prouerbes ye gladly exercise. If that ye mean by this senten­ce: faith iustifieth: that fayth ta­keth hold of the mercy of God, whych is granted vnto vs by Christes blood: then dothe the mercy of God iustifi, & take syn away: & fayth doth nothyngel­lis but taketh hold of the promi­sed, & offered mercy. Then, whē as the mercy of God is as well promised vnto chylderen as to old folk: childer mai be aswel be saued thereby, as old folk: & ha­ue theyr vnclenenes as well ta­ken away by it, as old folk haue theyr offences taken away by it, allthoughe they be not as yit cū med vnto the vse of faythe. I bryng for an example the infan­tes of the Iewes, whose natu­rall vnclenenes other God, thorow his mercy, took away befor [Page] they cam vnto the vse of fayth: or elles they were all damned, for they were both gotten and born in original syn. Then your general proposiciō is not trew, without a trew vnderstāding & nothīg agaīst me, nother serueth it for your purpose with a trew vnderstāding: for ye brīg it into proue, y ^t chylder haue no syn: & thus wold ye haue resoned, and ye had had learnynge to your mynde. Where as there is no faith, there is no remissiō of syn­nes: but no chylde hath faythe: therfore no chyld hath remissiō of synnes. If that chylder had synnes, they shuld haue had re­mission of them by faythe: but when as they haue no faythe: then haue they nether synne, nor remission of synne, I haue twise al redy āswered vnto this [Page] your argument before: where­fore I shall not nede at thys ty­me to confite it any more.

Where as ye thynk, that I am not healed from synne my self because I wold haue yong chyl­drē baptised: I cā not let yow to thynk of me, what ye list: but if ye iuge falsly, there is a iuge wil ponishe yow for your fals iuge­ment. And to say that I am not heled from the romisshe pok, is suche a lyke wepō as .ij. wyues scoldyng vpon .ij. dong hylles te vse to feygh whyh, one a­gaynst an other. The on sayeth thow art a drab: the other as­keth, why she is a drab: the for­mer answereth, for thow art a drab, shewyng no cause why y ^t hyr neybor shuld be a drab, Euē so ye haue sayd sence the begynnyng of your bok diuers tymes, [Page] that the baptym of chylder is a popish ordinance, & here ye saye that the romishe pok is to baptise infantes: but ye haue not as yit shewed one worde, to proue that, the baptyme of chylderen was popishe: except that your oft rehersall of it be a sufficient profe, to proue it with all, thynk you: because ye haue with your importune bablyng bewiched certayn vnlnearned simple mē, that thei beleue to be true what soeuer ye say ons vnto thē: that your thryse sayng of a lye shall purches credence, because ye do so oft repete the same: Can it that is by nature false, by oft rehersyng, be cū true: what other profe haue ye hither to brought that the baptym of chylder is popishe, sayng only your own oft rehersal of it: whych hath as [Page] mych autoryte with me, and all that cleue to the wryten worde of GOD, as the gospell of Munster hathe.

Hytherto haue ye bene about to confute my opinion, that yōg chyldren may be baptysed: but ye haue brought in for you no­thynge, sauyng one text of scripture, and that negatiue: Which I truste, I haue so taken from you, that it dyd not serue your purpose.

Now doth my opynion a­byde styll vnmoued: and vnre­proued: and yit haue ye donn that ye can: ye may se what it awayleth your wood sprete to fyght agaynst the scripture.

Then ye, beyng wery in wa­dyng in this mater, with small honestie begyn a newe mater: that is, that chylderen haue no [Page] originall synne: and in the fyrst sayeng, ye ar as clere agaynste your self afterwarde, as here is to colde, & lyght vnto darknes: for thus do ye begyn. ‘But your deuelishe pok is thys to cleare infantes from synn whiche ye call origi­nall.’

¶ If thys he a deuelishe pok: then haue ye the deuelles pok for ye go ernestly about to pro­ue, that chyldern haue no origi­nall synne. And as for me it is as manifeste as the clere daye lyght, that I do not clere chyl­der from originall synn: for that is one of the maters that I go moste earnestly about in my sermon, to proue that chylder ha­ue originall synn: not wichstan­dyng, that I do grant, that all myghty GOD purgeth and [Page] scoureth them from it in theyr infancie, by his mercy, accordīg vnto his promyse, which he ma­de vnto them. By this contra­diction, with it that foloweth here after, ye may bether learne this great clerk is wit, and the agrement of his spirite with it self. Then after this monstrous cōtradictiō, ye brust into a sterklye, which is conteyned in these wordes folowyng. ‘¶ This is the pok ye take in hande to cure, ether with water or fyer.’ I neuer went about to take original syn away by water: but I went about to proue, that chyl­der had original sinne, and that Christe taketh the same synne from chylder, by his promysed mercy: and that therfore the sa­crament of baptim shuld be offe­red vnto them, as a sygne, and [Page] seale of saluation, whiche they haue receyued by the merites of Christis passiō. It is therfore both maliciously, & lyingly sayd of yow, that I take in hande to cure originall syn with water. And of lyke truthe is it that ye wryte in the margen, that I go about to cure yow with fyre. For if I wolde haue gon about that: I knew and know mea­nes enow to bryng that to pas. For as muche as ye ar an open felon against the kyngis lawes, and haue committed suche felo­ny, as ye ar excepted out of the pardon, where of theues and robbers ar partakers. Almy­ghty GOD amende yow, and bryng yow in to the hygh way agayn, and saue yow from it, that ye haue iustly deserued.

The first argument that ye [Page] make to proue, that chylder ha­ue no originall synne, is this. ‘¶ If Christe had counted infantes so de­filed with Adames sinne, as ye do: he wold neuer haue sent his Apostelles & vs vnto childer to be defyled of them. But now he sendeth vs thyther for clennes, to becum suche as they ar, if we wold entre into the kyngdom of God: wasshed to the vnwas­shed, Christened to the vnchristened, bele­uers to vnbeleuers. Not to becum pocky or leprose, but that we shuld be ful of innocēcie & simplicite. For it is writē: except ye conuert & becum as these infantes ye shall not entre in to the kyngdom of heuenes.’

I am glad that ye ar now cō ­tent, to allege scripture for your purpose. Hetherto ye haue fou­ghten agaynst me only with, I say, and certayn scoldynges, & vnreasonable resones which ye feyned of your own brayne.

But now let vs se how ryght­ly ye haue alleged the Scrip­ture [Page] and whether, it that ye in­tende, doth folow of the place alleged or no.

Christ seyng the disputacion of the hartes of his disciples amōg them selues, who shuld be greatest among them, as Matthew and Luke do testify: set a chyld amongest them and seyde: ex­cept that ye be turned, and be made lyke vnto litle chylder, ye shall neuer entre in to the kyngdom of heuen. Christe byddeth hys disciples here to learne of chylder humilite, and to flye ambition, where with he saw them entangled. Christe byddeth not vs learne al vertues of childer, but onely hmmilite, and fliyng of ambition. Now I pray yow how folowe these argumentes chylder ar not desierous of ho­nor: ergo they haue no original [Page] synne, Christ sendeth vs to learne humilite of childer: ergo thei are not defyled with the synne of Adame. If these be good ar­gumentes, thē ar also they that folow good argumentes.

Peter was no thiefe: ergo Peter was no fyghter. Mary magdaleyn was no murderer: therfore she was no vnclene woman of her body. If these argu­mentes do not folow: thē doth not thys your argumēt folow. childer ar not proud & desirous of honor: therefore they ar not defyled with originall synne. & because your argument semeth to lene vpon this pyller: Christe sendeth his Apostelles and vs to learne of none that is defy­led, with any synne: I wyll exa­min it, & (I trust) ouerthrow it w ^t opē examples of y ^e scripture. [Page] Christe in the is of Luke ex­horteth vs to folow the wyk­ked stewarde, and bryngeth hym for an example to be folo­wed in wysdome. Was thys wykked stewarde with out ori­ginall synne, and vndefyled by Adame, because Christ sendeth vs vnto hym, to learne wisdo­me in one point? Christ sendeth vs also vnto serpentes to lear­ne wisdome: be ye wyse sayeth he, as serpentes, and symple as doues. Haue serpentes no poy­son, because Christe sendeth vs vnto them, to learne wisdome? Paule exhorteth them that he writeth vnto, to folow hī: was Paule without syn, because he exhorted hys Disciples to fo­low hym? No. for he graunteth in diuerse places in the Epistel to y ^e Romanes both generally & [Page] particularely, that he is a syn­ner: and yet not withstandynge he exhorteth his disciples to fo­low hym sayng: be you the folo­wers of me, as I folow Christ. So maye we folowe childer as they folowe Christe in humilite and lowlines, and yet their hu­milite doth not, proue they are cleare frō original [...]ynne. What if I graunted you, that the chil­der, that Christ set furth for vs to folowe, where at that tyme clere from origynall synne, as I recken they wer in dede (for it is lyke they were chylder of the Iewes, and hadde the pro­mys, and hadde receyued the seale of the promys: cyrcum­cisyon, and therefore was clea­red from theyr originall synne that it shulde not bee imputed vnto them) shall it folowe, [Page] that they had no original synne before? No. For God purgeth chylder as well as men from originall syn. Therfore thys text of scripture, whiche ye ha­ue alleged out of Mathew, pro­ueth nothyng, that childer ar fre from originall synne and so, where as ye thought that by the strengthe of your inuinci­ble argumēt, it shuld haue bene easy to haue aunswered to my argumentes made, to proue that chylder were borne in ori­ginall synne, your wepon taken from yow, it is as harde to so­lute my argumentes as it was before.

Diuerse other absurdites & inconueniences folow vpō your foolish assertiō, & sayeng namely this. ‘Christe, say ye, the prynce of phy­siciones, sendeth, his chefe surgeones and [Page] physiciones to be cum suche as the babes wer,’ but ye say a litle after that ‘y ^e childer were vnwasshed, vnchristened, vnleuers.’ Then sent Christe hys a­postels, by your sayng, to yong chylder, to learne of them to be vnwashed, vnchristened & to be faythles. Ye set in your margē, ouer agaynst thys your argu­ment, with many other wordes ‘ uirgines enim sunt. & dealbauerunt uesti­menta sua in sanguine agui. For they are pu­re virgines and they haue made whyte their garmentes in the blood of y ^e lambe.’ If that this text perteyn vnto chylder, as yow do allege it, ye haue brought me .ij. serpētines to shoote against yow. with the first I wil ouerthrow your opi­nion, that chylder ar not borne in originall synne: and wyth the secund your false lye, where as ye sayd that chylder were vn­wasshed. If that chylder had [Page] their garmentes made whyte, then was their garmentes once not white: then if whitnes betokeneth clennes, & other colores vnclēnes: it foloweth that they were once vnclene, for all that they wer afterward come vnto such whitnes & clenenes, by the blood of the lambe. If that thei made white their clothes in the blood of the lābe, then wer they wel wasshed. Who can be better wasshed then thei be, y ^t are was­shed with Christes blood? then are the childer wasshed, and ye sklander thē of vnclennes, & yf thei be wasshed, then were they before vnclene: but they had no other vnclēnes sauyng original syn: thefore by this text of scriptur childer haue had original sin & by the blood of the lambe are scoured & purged frō thesame.