The first Chapman.

WHAT haue you there my friend?

Sir I haue here sundry sorts of seasoning salt.

From whence commeth it?

From the sacred salt-pits.

Is it that which is called Canoni­call?

Yes.

I would haue such as is fit to sea­son some, whose speaches and behauiour are such, as giue occasiō to many to suspect, that either they thinke there is no God, or if there be, that hee regardeth not what is done among men.

A learned man in a preface of his [Page 2]maketh mention of a wicked wretch which promised to shew how the Apostles and Euangelists haue mis-applied certaine places of the old Testament, [...]un. in praefat. [...]nte paralel. no doubt but Sathan séeing him, and such like, to stand in their owne conceipts, thought them fit in­struments for him to continue a distasting of all spirituall things in such as set their affections on things that bee earthly, but if such fellowes, and the men you speake of, repent not, it will bee easier in the day of iudgement for Diagoras, Epicurus, and Protagoras then for them, because they saw not that light which these saw, or might haue seene if they had not shut their eyes against the Sunne of righteousnesse.

Friend Salter, I am perswaded there is none so stony-hearted, but our God, whē hee will, can make him a child of Abraham. The Lord vseth meanes to conuert such as he will saue, therefore let mee haue some such Salt as you thinke fit to season these, whose state as yet is very fearefull.

Assure your selfe that they which thinke there is no God care little for any salt, or whatsoeuer is said to come from his sacred fountaines.

How shall these then & others that scoffe at all religious exercises be seasoned?

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I know not, for if they beléeue not the holy Scriptures to bee Gods word, it is to be feared least through his iudgements they be so witlesse, and so wayward, that they acknowledge not heauen, earth, and the sea, with the things therein contained to be his works: so that if neither his most holy word, which wee may and ought to heare with our eares, nor his most wonder­full and most glorious works, part whereof we see with our eyes: if these I say will not [...]eason them, they must for ought I know remaine vnsauoury still.

Alphonsus the tenth King of Spaine spake foolishly of God his workes: Phill. of Mor. of the truenesse of Christian Religion. chap. 11. Rodericke of Toledo in his 4. b. c. 6. yet hee was not so foolish to say there was no God.

Why, what said he?

He said, as some write, that if hee had bene with God at the creation of the world, it should haue bene much better or­dered then it is, but God punished him for so saying.

I haue not heard these men find a­ny fault with the ordering of the world, but they thinke there be many things set down which are not likely to be true; Gen. 3.1. as that the Serpent should speake to Eue, Num. 22.28 the Asse should speake to Balaam, Ionas 1.17 that Ionas should [...]iue in the belly of a fish, that mens bodies [Page 4]should be the torments of eternall fire, Iud. ver. 7. and neuer die, but liue still in them with paine.

The Emperour Iulian also thought that some talking of the Serpent, a strange thing, which is no more, saith the aforesaid Phillip, but that the diuel spake by the Ser­pent, and what is there herein saith he, that befel not daily among the Gentiles? diuels, to deceiue men, spake to them from out of Images. The feend of Dodan spake out of an Oke: Philostratus saith, that an Elme spake to Apollonius of Thyaney. A riuer saith Porphyrius saluted Pithagoras. Iulian himselfe and his Phylosopher Maximus heard the diuell speake in diuers voices, & in diuers manners.

Do none of the ancient Fathers write of the Serpents talking with Eue?

Yes I remember Saint Augustine saith, Lib. 2. de ge­nesi. contra. Manich. ca. 14. that the Serpent signfieth y ^e Diuell, which surely was not simple, for in that hée is said to be more wise then all the beasts, figurate insinuatur ei [...]s versutia, his subtilty is figuratiuely insinuated, & a little after he saith, Neither is it to be maruailed how he coul [...] speake to the woman, when shee was in Paradice and hee was not, neither was shee in Paradice, secundum locum, accor­ding to the place, but rather according to [Page 5] [...]he loue of blessednesse, or if there were [...]uch a place, which might be called Paradice [...]n the which Adam and the woman dwelled [...]orporally, ought wee to vnderstand the [...]omming of the Diuell also to be bodily? no [...]erily, but spiritually, as the Apostle saith, [...]ecundum principem potestatis aeris huius, Ephe. 2.2. [...]. spiritus qui nunc operatur in filijs affiden­ [...]iae, according to the Prince of the power of this aire, of the spirit which now wor­ [...]eth in the children of diffidence, or as some [...]ranslate it, disobedience: did he then (saith Saint Augustine) appeare vnto them visi­bly, no verily, sed miris modis per cogitati­ [...]nes suggerit quicquid potest, But in a meruailous manner by thoughts he sugges­teth whatsoeuer he can, the which suggesti­ons they do resist which truly say y ^t which y ^e Apostle saith, 2. Cor. 2.18 Aerasmus & the vulgar Editition ioyned with him tran­slate [...] cogitationes thoughts. Non enim ignoramus astuti­ [...]s eius, for we are not ignorant of his wi [...]es for how came he to Iudas, when he perswa­ [...]ed him to betray (Dominum) the Lord his Maister? was hee seene of him in places, or [...]yhis eyes? but euen as it is said he entred [...]nto his heart, so doth Saint Austin write [...]o shew the meaning of Saint Luke, Luc. 22.3. which [...]aith Sathan entred into iudgement.

It seemeth then that by Saint Au­stins words, and by the places of holy Scrip­ture [Page 6]which he citeth, that by the Serpents talking with Eue, he vnderstandeth the sug­gestions and entisings of the diuell.

True, and in the same 14 chapter he saith, that euen now that is wrought in euery one of vs when wee fall into sinne, which was then done in those three, the ser­pent, the woman, and the man: for first there is a suggestion, either by thought or by the sense of the body, either by séeing, or touching or hearing, or by tasting, or smel­ling, after the which suggestion, if our lust or desire be not moued to sinne, the subtile or crafty enterprises of the Serpent shal be excluded, but if our lust be moued or stirred, now the woman, as it were, is perswaded, but sometime reason (viriliter) manfully bridleth and restraineth lust beeing stirred, which when it is done, we slide not into sin, but with some wrestling wee are crowned. But if reason consent and decree that to bée done which lust moueth vnto, then man is driuen out from all blessed life, as it were from Paradice, for now sinne is imputed though the deed follow not, quoniam rea­tenetur in consensione conscientia, because the conscience is held guilty in consen­ting.

So, enough of that matter: now [Page 7]sith there be no more Chapmen yet come, I pray you ere you deliuer the Canonicall Salt, tell me what that Father saith of Ba­laam and the Asse.

Touching that hee saith that Ba­laam was carried away with such a greedy desire, Quast. super Nume. q. 50. vt nec tanti monstri miraculo terre­retur, that he was not terrified with so mon­strous and strange a miracle, but answered the Asse as if hee spake to a man, whereas God did not turne asinae animam in natu­ram rationalem, the sensitiue part of the Asse into a reasonable nature, but made that to sound from her which pleased him, perhaps prefiguring this, 1. Cor. 2. that God would choose the foolish things of the world to confound the wise: for that spirituall and true Israell, hoc est, promissionis filijs; that is to say the sonnes of promise.

But what saith hee of Ionas his being aliue in the Whales belly?

Augustine in the last of the sixe que­stions against the pagans, Aug. de se [...]. quest. con. pa­ganos expos. quaest. 6. ad Deo gratias. who made them­selues great sport in laughing at that which is written of his beeing three daies in the Whales belly, and of the Gourd, he saith that either all the diuine miracles are not to be beleeued, or else there is no cause why this should not, and for that he knew Ionas [Page 8]to bee a figure of Christ, hee affirmeth that we should not beleeue in Christ himselfe, if the faith of Christians should feare y ^e scoffes of Pagans, Io. 11.35.44 Mat. 12.40. Acts 10.40 and hee addeth that hee much maruaileth that since his friend made no question of the rising againe of Lazarus the fourth day, or of Christ himselfe the third day, hee would count that which is written of Ionas a matter so vncredible, as if it were more easy for a dead man to bee raised out of his graue, then for a liuing man to bee preserued, in tam vasto ventre belluae, in that so large a belly of y ^e Whale, then omitting to shew how huge certaine sea-beasts are iudged to be, by such as haue experience, hee saith a man might guesse by those ribs (which beeing fastened in a pub­licke place in Carthage were knowne to the people) how many men the belly of that fi [...]h might containe, and also how wide that mouth might gape which was as a gate to such a den.

What more?

A little after hee saith that if it should bee said that Apuleius Madaurensis, or Apollonius Tyaneus, (whom laudibly they name wise men and Phylosophers) had done that which is writen of Ionas, they would not haue made such a laughing, [Page 9]though the diuels also doe many things like to the holy Angels, not in truth, but in shew, not by wisedome, but by plaine de­ceit.

What are the last words Saint Austine vseth in answering that question touching Ionas

Quod autem latuerit, sine salutis dis­pendio tolerandum.

So now I see you had not this at the second hand: But what saith he to those that cannot be perswaded, that the bodies of the damned should alwaies bee in tor­ments and neuer dye?

First he saith, that those vnbelée­uers, De ciuitate Dei, li 21. [...] will not haue vs to referre this to the power of the Almighty, but require vs to perswade them by some example: vnto whom if wee shall answere, that there bee some liuing creatures corruptible, because mortall, which yet liue in the midest of the fire, & some kind of wormes found in y ^e brea­king forth of hot waters, which no man can touch without some paine, the wormes not onely beeing there without hurt, but not a­ble to bee out of it: either they will not beléeue if we cannot shew it, or if we be able to set the things themselues before their eyes, or bring forth fit witnesses, they will [Page 10]say this is not a fit example for the matter in question, because these creatures liue not alwaies, besides this, they liue and grow without paine in that heat, as beeing agreeable to their nature: as if (saith Saint Austin) it were not more vncredible they should be liuely and grow there, then not be tormented. It is a miraculous thing to feele paine in fire and yet liue, but it is more maruailous to liue in fire, and not to feele paine: if this then be beléeued, why not that also? In the 3 chapter of that book [...] hee laboureth to proue that, Aug. de ciuit. dei l. 21. c 3. Dolor is not, necessarium argumentem futurae mortis, that is to say.

And hee giueth an instance in the soule: the soule (saith he) is grieued with the body in that place where it is pained, and it is grieued it selfe alone, though it bee in the body, being it selfe sad for some cause inui­sible, the body beeing safe and sound. It is grieued and pained also, non in corpore con­stituta not beeing in the body, for the rich man (saith he) being in hel, was grieued and pained, when he said, I am tormented in this flame, Aug. de ciuit. dei l. 21. c. 4. In the next chapter the same Fa­ther sheweth of the Salamander that liueth [Page 11]in the fire, and of certaine hils in Sicilia well knowne, which continued a very long time burning, and yet were not consumed in his time: For (saith he) integri perseuerant, they continue whole, and these (saith he) are fit witnesses, that not euery thing which bur­neth is consumed. In the same fourth chap. he speaketh of Peacocks flesh, which after long kéeping (as hee had tryed) did not pu­trify though somewhat shrunke, and of chaffe kéeping snow, and ripening apples: to omit other things, hee commeth at last to the Loadstone, vnto which he himselfe saw an iron ring put and there stay, and so a se­cond ring put to the first, a third to the se­cond, and a fourth to the third, one ring stic­king (though not linked) to another, through the vertue of the same stone,

Doth hee write any thing else of that stone in that Chapter?

Yes, he saith that one (whom there he calleth brother and fellow Bishop) told him y ^t he saw one hold the Loadstone vnder siluer, vpon the which siluer was put yron which moued too and fro, as he that held y ^e stone vnder the siluer moued his hand, the siluer that was betwixt the Loadstone and the iron mouing no whit at all, he saith also that he hath read, that if the Adamant bee [Page 12]set neere to the Loadstone, then the Load­stone doth not draw yron, De ciuitate dei, li. 21. c. 5. and that if it hath pluckt any yron to it before, it letteth it go when the Adamant appeareth. In the 5. chapter he speaketh of the salt of Agrigen­tum in Cicilie, which melteth in fire and cracketh in water: of a spring amongst the Garamantes y ^t is so cold in the day time y ^t it cannot be drunk & so hot in the night that it cannot bee toucht: of a stone in Arcadia called Asbeston, which beeing once set tho­rougly on fire cannot be quenched, of ano­ther stone called Selenites whose inward whitnesse increaseth and decreaseth with y ^e the Moone, of Mares in Capadocia which conceiue by the wind, and of Iland in In­dia called Tilon, the trees whereof neuer loose their leaues: these with others he set­teth downe, to shew that the same diuine power, that gaue such properties to these things, can also bring to passe that men shall be in paine al waies and neuer dye, and that their flesh shall euer burne & neuer consume.

I know not what reckoning the men I named will make of these things which you haue mentioned, but I much meruaile they will serue no God at all; sith all the heathen, for the most part (as I haue heard) worship either one God or other, ei­ther [Page 13]the Sunne, Moone and starres, or fire, or water, or the earth, or some other thing which did good to man, and was not made by man.

They did so, and therefore how wise soeuer your men thinke themselues to be, yet those other which tooke that which did giue them light, either by day or night or did heate them or coole them, or yeeld any fruite vnto them, and was not made by man, to be some God, that is some diuine power worthy of worship, were in my iudgement wiser then the Atheist: For though they fayled in this, that they stayed in the creatures, worshipping them and searching no further for the Creator, that is inuisible, as if one that commeth into a mill, and finding no man there but his grist grownd in his sacke, should put of his cap, make a legge, and thanke the mill, and so take vp his sacke & go his way, neuer think­ing on the mil-wright that made the mil, or on the miller that set it on worke, though I say these erred, worshipping y ^e creatures in steed of the Creator: yet in my simple iudge­ment hee that reasoneth thus: these things do mee good and were not made by men, therefore they are Gods, doth reason more wisely then he, that saith Sun, Moone and [Page 14]starres keepe their course, giue vs light; the fire doth heate mee, the raine helpeth my corne & grasse to grow: these are not Gods, therefore there is no mighty power that worketh by them. How sayest thou Chap­man doth not the first reason more wisely then the latter?

The reason of the first seemeth to haue more force then the latter, yet I may not grant it to be wiser, vnlesse the first were wise, but I cannot grant the former to bee wise, vnlesse I would therewithall grant that there is wisedome in worshipping the workes in steed of the worke-maister: but I haue no more reason to grant that, then to yeeld to the Atheist, that religion sprang frō policy, for if that were true the inuentors of it should be called fainers or lyars.

Lactantius, De [...]lra dei cap. 10. ver­sus finem. an ancient and lear­ned writer, saith that opinion is false, by which men thinke that religion was insti­tuted by wise men, terroris & metus gratia To keepe men in awe as the vulgar Atheist speaketh. for terrour and feare sake, through which the ignorant might abstaine from sinne, which if it were true (saith he) then are we derided by ancient wise-men, who if they forged Religion to deceiue vs and all man­kinde, they were not wise, because a lye is not found in a wise-man, but how wise [Page 15]soeuer they were, how came they by so great felicity in lying, that not onely they decei­ [...]ed the vnlearned, but Socrates also and Plato, and so easily deluded Pithagoras, Ze­no, and Aristotle, the Authors of the grea­test sects.

Howsoeuer others might fayne, Lact. de falsa Religione c. 4. I do not thinke the Prophets were such,

To haue a will to faine any lye (saith the aforesaid Authour) belongeth to them which be still raking of riches and ga­ [...]ing for gaine, Ibid paulo ante. which things without doubt there far from those holy men, * which set forth one God, and beeing guided by the spirit of the same God spake one thing: who not onely had no gaine (saith hee to­wards the end of the same Chapter) but torments and death, and he addeth this rea­son: for the precepts of iustice are bitter to the vitious and bad-liuers, and therefore af­ter they had cruelly tormented such as re­proued and spake against their sinnes, they killed them.

What if any Pagan should say to vs, that professe the Christian Religion, you Christians haue fained that which you haue set forth, and to the end men might more bee moued to giue credit, you do with one consent write, that all those things were [Page 16]fore-told long before?

Saint Augustine vpon the 8. [...] Iohn saith, Tract. 45. that against such Pagan eni­mies y ^e should so say, we haue haue the testi­monies of other enemies, proferimus codi­ces a Iudaeis, we bring forth bookes from th [...] Iewes. & wee answere, both they & you ar [...] enimies to our faith, therefore are they dis­pearsed amongst y ^e nations, y ^t we may con­uince one enemy by another. Let y ^e booke o [...] Esay be brought forth by y ^e Iewes, let vs se [...] if I do not read there. Isay 53.7. He is brought, a [...] sheepe to the slaughter. Chap. 53.

Are there none that write o [...] this one God but the Prophets and other holy men, named in the Scriptures?

You forget your selfe, you told m [...] you would haue Canonicall Salt for your Atheist, why then doe you aske for other? belike you meane to giue him a preparatiue before you giue him a quicke purge: whom do you meane? The Fathers that wrote after y ^e Apostles time or some other among the heathen before Christ his incarnation? if you meane these last-named, then know you that Lactantius setteth downe some spéeches of Trismegistus, De fal. relig. ca. 6. and the Sibylls touching one God.

What was that Trismegistus and [Page 17]those Sibylls?

Cicero bringeth in Cotta dispu­ting against the Stoicks touching religions, and the varieties of the opinions which are wont to bee concerning the Gods, there were (saith Cotta) fiue Mercuries whereof the first was he that slew Argus, and so fled into Egypt, and deliuered vnto them lawes and letters: This man the Egyptians call Thoth, Some of our Prognost. say they call Iuly Thoth. Prog. 1610. of whom the first moneth of their yeare, that is September, is named, &c. This man being furnished of all kind of learning was for his great knowledge sur-named Trismegistus, thrise greatest, as some with vs by such as dedicate bookes to them, are called thrise Noble, thrise vertuous &c.

Well, what saith that great lear­ned man?

[...], &c. But God is one, Lact. de fals. relig. ca. 6. Lact de ver [...] sap. ca. 6. and one needeth no name, (and againe saith he): [...], &c. The Lord and Creator of all things, whom we thinke good to call God, &c.

Now to the Sibylls, what were they? and what say they?

Varro, who (as Lactantius saith) was as learned a man as euer liued among the Greekes and Lattines, De fal. relig. ca. 6. affirmeth that y ^e [Page 18] Sibylline bookes or workes that beare the name of Sibilla were not made of one Sibyl­la, but were so called because all Prophe­tesses in time of old were called Sibylls, ei­ther from the name of one Sibyll that was at Delphis, or for the denouncing the coun­saile of the gods: For in Arolikes speech they call the gods [...] not [...] and counsell, not [...], but [...]. Now there were tenne of these Sibylls, whereof the fift was Ery­thraea. shee in the verses that were brought to Rome hath these words, [...].

One God which alone passing all mag­nitude vncreated. These Sibylls haue writ­ten many things touching our Sauiour Christ his miracles, sufferings, resurrection, and comming to iudgement, as is to be séene in the said Lactantius, out of whom Saint Augustine citeth many spéeches of the said Sibylls, especially of Erythraea, the first let­ters of whose Greeke verses touching Christ his comming to iudgement, make these words in Lattin. Iesus Christus Dei filius saluator, Iesus Christ the Sonne of God our Sauiour.

Haue you read these words in S. Augustine? or do you finde them in Phillip of Morney his booke,

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What if I had read it in any of his bookes, will you not giue as much credit vnto him as vnto me, which in all respects am farre inferior vnto him; but the truth is I haue read it my selfe in Saint Augu­stine his 18 booke and 23 chapter of the Citty of God, the first word of which chap-chapter is eodem, and the last word scrip­serunt.

Are the verses you spake of set downe in that Chapter.

Yes, in Lattine, Iudicij signum, &c.

I would I had them in English,

If you will haue them Englished in the best manner, you must craue it at the hands of some other, but if you will see the sence as I haue giuen it after the plaine fa­shion, thus it is.

In whose time liued that Sibyll?

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He that compareth the 23 Chap­ter of the 18 booke De Ciuitate Dei, with the Chapter aforegoing, shall finde that she was in the daies of Romulus and Ezechi­as, Romulus was some 700 yeares before Christ. but in the end of that Chapter hee saith some wrote that she was, belli Troiani tem­pore, in time of the Troiane warre.

Did she write such things so long before the Incarnation of our Sauiour Ie­sus Christ?

It should seeme so by S. Austin, but since your comming was not for Sibyl-Salt, but for Salt Canonicall, tell mee how much you will haue.

Marry friend Salter tell me first I pray thee what I shall say to these Atheists if they should aske mee how I know that this Salt which cōmeth from Bible-Spring, doth passe all other.

Hee which for that matter hath not the inward testimony of y ^e spirit which is the chiefest, must bee exhorted to seeke for some outward testimony in the fountaine it selfe, whereof the first may be the maie­sty of the doctrine euery where appearing in those sacred and Canonicall bookes, Vide Whita. in dis. de sacr. Scrip. contren 1. Q [...]aest 3. cap. 3. sect. 5. The [...]econd the simple, pure, and heauenly kind of writing, neither Plato, Aristotle, nor Demosthenes, nor Cicero, nor any other [Page 22]that wrote so purely, so holily, and so diuine­ly. The third is the antiquity of them, for the bookes of Moses are more ancient then the writings of all men, other Writers were vtterly ignorant of the History he de­ducteth from the creation, or had it from thence, or else bee sprinkled with many fa­bles. The fourth testimony is the Oracles which confirme the authority of those books to be very sacred, as the which must needes bee diuine, for that in them are fore-told some things which came to passe man [...] ages after, and names were put vpon som [...] men before they were borne, certaine hun­dreth of yeares, as in 1 Kings 13 Chapter the man of God which came out of Iudah by the commandement of the Lord, cryed against that Altar, in the presence of King Iereboam, and said: O Altar, Altar, thus saith the Lord, behold a child shal be borne vnto the house of Dauid, Iosiah by name and vpon thee shall hee sacrifice the Priest [...] of the high places: this he spake more ther [...] 300 yeares before Iosiah was borne, 44.28. & 45. [...]., th [...] Prophet Esaie in like manner nameth Cy­rus some 100 yeares ere he was borne.

How can you proue that Iosia [...] and Cyrus were named so long before they were borne?

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I find in the 2 Chronicles 13 20. that Ieroboam, in whose daies Iosiah was named by the man of God aforesaid, being plagued of God, died in y ^e daies of Abijah, who was then King of Iudah, now he that will reckon how many yeares each King of Iudah, from Abijah to Iosiah did raigne, shall finde the yeares when he fetteth down the whole sumine to be more then 300. And as touching Cyrus named by the Prophet Isay; know you that this Prophet prophe­sied in the daies of Vzziah, Iotham, Ahaz, Isay. 1.1. and Hezekiah Kings of Iudah, now pre­suppose that the Prophet Isay named not Cyrus till the last yeare of Hezekiah his raigne, and that Cyrus was borne in the 11 yeare of Iehoiakim, (about which time be­ganne the captiuity of Babilon) if yee rec­kon the yeares of the raignes of the Kings of Iudah, that raigned betwixt Ezekiah, 2. Chro. 26.6. & Iehoiakim, you shall finde them as I said to amount to some hundred yeares lacking some nine monthes, for Manasses who suc­ceeded Hezekiah, raigned 55 years, Amon two yeares, Iosiah 31 yeares, Ioachas 3 monthes. Iehoiakim 11 yeares.

Go on now with the rest of the testimonies for the authority of the Scrip­tures.

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The fift is the number of miracles.

What miracles? if you meane such are found in the Scriptures, assure your selfe that they which doubt of, or set light by the Scriptures, make little accompt of the mi­racles or any thing else contained in them, though they were not faigned.

If that testimony seeme weak take the sixt, Do. Whitak in dis. de sacr Scrip. contro. 1 Qu. 3. ca. 3. sest. 5 which is the enemies themselues, who though they haue oft gone about to take away all the Scriptures from the sight of men, yet they could neuer bring it to passe, but by their owne paines and punish­ments vnderstood, that it was the word of God that they oppugned.

The seuenth is y ^e testimony of the Mar­tirs, which by their confession and death sealed the doctrine deliuered, and set forth in those bookes,

The eigth the Writers themselues who wrote thē, bring great credit vnto thē, for if ye consider what manner of mē they were, before they were stirred vp by y ^e holy Ghost, to take this vpon them wee shall finde that they were very vnfit for such a businesse.

Moses before hee was made fit to bee a Prophet and a guide to y ^e people of Israel, Exod. 2.10. & 3.1. was first a Courtier in Egypt, and after that a shepheard.

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Ieremy before the Lord touched his mouth and said, Ier. 1.6. I haue put my words into [...]hy mouth, confessed himselfe to be as vnfit [...]o bee a Prophet as an infant that cannot speake, for that was his meaning when hee said: O Lord God I cannot speake for I am child.

Dauid when hee was sent for to bee an­ [...]ointed was called a little one, 1. Sam. 16.11. and we find [...]hat he kept sheepe also.

Peter and Iohn fishers and vnlearned. Ma. 4.18.31. Acts 3.13. Acts 9.1.4 Col. 4.14.

Mathew a Publican, Paul a persecutor [...]f the same doctrine which after he profes­sed, and Luke was a Physition, how could i [...] be that such manner of men should write so diuinely, had they not as other holy men of God bene moued (as Saint Peter saith) by the holy Ghost. 2. Pet. 1.21. And herein I may not forget one speciall thing, wherein these aforesaid differ from prophane writers: They hid not their owne infirmities, but set them downe without partiality, which the other seldome or neuer doe, least that should take something from their glory: and now friend Chapman, to make an end of this in few words, know you, that though these outward testimonies may suffice to shew that the holy Ghost spake by the Pro­phets, and directed the writers of the holy [Page 26]Scriptures; yet those are not of sufficient force to perswade vs to assent vnto them, except wee haue also the inward testimony of the holy Ghost to worke in vs,

Doth the authority of the Church auaile nothing in this matter?

You are good to go on a dead mans errand, you come for Salt to season the A­theist, but if you leade mee thus from one thing to another, he may be dead and in hell ere you come at him.

He was in health and merry whe [...] I saw him going towards the Wine-tauerne with his companions.

Many haue fallen out when too much drinke hath beene in, and then they beastly, sometimes cowardly, and drunken stab, causeth some of the company turne vp their héeles, I would wish you to make hast to him, for as a man is but a buble, so hee is but a blow.

I pray you tell mee ere you goe what bee the offices of the Church towards the Scriptures.

Some of the learned haue set downe foure, whereof the first is to bee a [...] witnesse and key of them.

The second is to discerne the true and na­tural Scriptures from the false and bastard

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The third is to publish and set forth the Scriptures, wherein she doth the office of a cryer, which ought with a loud voyce pro­nounce the decrees of the Princes with­out pretermitting, changing or adding any thing.

The fourth office of the Church is to ex­pound and interpret the Scriptures, wher­in shee is to forge nothing of her owne but to expound Scriptures by Scriptures, but if you will haue any Canonicall Salt for y ^e foole and his fellowes for whom you came, tell me quickly, for I would be leath to stay other Chapmen to long.

Why do you call him foole?

Heare the cause why.

The foole hath said in his heart there is no God, Psal. 14. but your man if he be an Atheist, saith so, ergo, his is a foole and a wicked foole. Acts 16. Psal. 58.11. The holy Ghost who (as Saint Peter saith) spake by the mouth of Dauid telleth vs that without all doubt there is a God, and that he iudgeth the earth: and the aforesaid Peter saith, but those things which God before had shewed by the mouth of al his Prophets that Christ should suffer, he hath thus fulfilled, in which words he teacheth vs foure things.

• 1 That there is a liuing God, else hee [Page 28]could shew nothing.
• 2 That he hath spoken by the mouth of all his Prophets.
• 3 That those prophesies foretold that Christ should suffer.
• 4 That whatsoeuer they foretold tou­ching that suffering is fulfilled.

Well let mee haue some more of this kind of Salt.

At Bible-Springs there are two Fountaines, the one called the old, the other the new, you shall haue some of both if you will.

Content.

Who would not feare thee o King of nations. ger. 10.

Wherfore Nebuchadnezzar spake & said: Dan. 3.28. & [...]9. Blessed be the Lord God of Shadrach, Mes­sach, and Abednego who hath sent his An­gels and deliuered his seruants that put their trust in him: Therefore I make a de­cree that euery people, nation, and language which speaketh any blasphemy against the God of Shadrach, Messach, and Abednego, shall be drawne in peeces, and there houses shall bee made a iakes, because there is no God that can deliuer after this sort.

O King heare thou, Dan. 5.18. the most high God gaue vnto Nebuchadnezzar thy father a [Page 29]kingdome and Maiesty, & honour, and glo­ry, &c.

Behold God is excellent, and wee know him not, neither can the number of his yeares be searched out.

When I made the clouds as a couering therof, Iob. 38.9 & darkenesse as the swadling bands thereof.

10 When I established my commandement [...]pon it, and set barres and dores,

11 And said, hitherto shalt thou come but [...]o further, and here shall it stay thy proud waues.

If I haue lift vp my hand against the fatherlesse, Iob 31.21. when I saw that I might helpe him in the gate.

22 Let mine arme fall from my shoulder, & myne arme be broken from the bone.

23 For Gods punishment was fearfull vnto mee, and I could not be deliuered from his highnesse.

All they shall bee ashamed and also con­founded, Esay 45.10. they shall goe to confusion toge­ther that are the makers of images.

17 But Israel shall be saued in the Lord, with an euerlasting saluation, yee shall not bee a [...]hamed nor confounded, world without end.

18 For thus saith the Lord that created hea­uen, [Page 30]God himselfe that formed the earth and made it: hee that prepared it, hee created it not in vaine, hee formed it to bee inhabited, I am the Lord, there is none other.

19 I haue not spoken in secret neither in a place of darkenesse, I said not in vaine to the seed of Iacob seeke you mee, I the Lord do speake righteousnesse, and declare righ­teous things.

20 Assemble your selues and come draw neere together, yee abiect of the Gentils, They haue no knowledge that set vp the wood of their idoll, & pray vnto a God that cannot saue them.

21 Tell yee, and bring them, and let them take counsell together, who hath declared this from the beginning? or hath told it of old? haue not I the Lord? and there is none other God besides me, a iust God and a Sa­uiour, there is none besides me.

22 Looke vnto me and you shall be saued: al the ends of the earth shall be saued, for I am God and there is none other.

Woe vnto them for they haue fled away from me; Hosea 7.13. destruction shal be vnto them be­cause they haue transgressed against mee, though I haue redeemed thē, yet they haue spoken lies against me.

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God is very greatly to bee feared, Palme 89.7. in the [...]ounsell of the Saints, and to be had in re­ [...]erence of all them that are about him.

[...] O Lord God of hostes, who is like vnto [...]hee, thy truth most mighty Lord is on eue­ [...]y side.

O Lord the hope of Israell, all that for­ [...]ake thee shall be confounded, they that de­ [...]art from thee shall be written in the earth, [...]ecause they haue forsaken the Lord, y ^e foun­ [...]aine of liuing waters.

This Salt is fit for such as fal away [...]rom God.

If they bee confounded that fall [...]rom God then there is a God. and y ^e same [...] terrible God to such as forsake him.

Go on then.

Their words haue beene stout a­ [...]ainst me, saith the Lord, Mal. 3.13. yet yee say what [...]aue wee spoken against thee?

[...] Yee haue said it is in vaine to serue God, [...]nd what profit is it that wee haue kept his [...]ommandements, and that we walked hum­ [...]ly before the Lord of Hostes?

This first vnderstand that there shal come [...]n the last dayes mockers which will walke [...]fter their lusts. 2. Pe [...]. 3.3.

And say where is the promise of his [...]omming, for since the fathers died all [Page 32]things continue alike from the beginning

Thou beléeuest that there is one God, y ^e dost wel, the diuels also beleeue it and trem­ble, whereby wee learne that they which beleeue not so much, are worse then diuels

Behold the Lord commeth with thou­sands of Saints, Iud. 14.15. to giue iudgement against all men, and to rebuke all the vngodly a­mongst them of all their wicked deedes, which they haue vngodly committed, and of all their cruell speakings, which wicked sinners haue spoken against him.

God will bring euery worke to iudge­ment, [...]ccle. 13.14 and euery secret thing, whether it be good or euill.

The Lord will try the righteous, Psalme 11.5. but the wicked and him that loueth iniquity doth his soule hate.

6 Vpon the wicked hee shall raine snares, fire and brimstone and stormy tempest, this is their portions of the cups

In flaming fire rendring vengeance to them that do not feare God. [...], Thes. 1.8.

If any of this biting salt, or the like should moue either the Atheist (which saith in his heart there is no God) or the Epicure (which denieth his prouidence) or any of the wicked to come into the Church, and there by hearing of Gods iudgements, [Page 33]thundred out against them, begin to trem­ble and quake, is there any softer salt or any ware to bee had at Bible-Spring that may serue to keepe them from dispairing.

When by preaching of the word, and feruent prayers of the righteous, which as Saint Iames saith auaileth much, they bee brought to a true feeling of their sinnes, and through the grace of God, which is giuen to the humble, haue that godly sorrow that causeth repentance not [...]o be repented of, and some measure of a sound faith in our Sauiour Iesus Christ, in whose name (for that he is the mediator betweene God and man) we ought to pray: when I say they are thus farre reformed, let them either publickely confesse their sinne in such sort, as authority shall appoint, or else priuately say these or the like words. O Lord God which art great and fearefull, A prayer. and keepest couenant and mercy towards them that loue thee and keep thy comman­dements, Dan. [...] ▪ wee haue sinned and haue com­mitted iniquity, and haue done wickedly, yea we haue rebelled and departed from thy precepts and from thy iudgments: O Lord righteousnesse belongeth vnto thee, and vnto vs open shame: O our God wee are confounded and ashamed to lift vp our [Page 34]eyes to thee our God, Ezra. 9.6. Psalme 51. for our iniquities are increa [...]ed ouer our head, and our trespasse is growne vp into the heauen: create in vs cleane hearts o God, wash vs thereby from our iniquities, cast vs not away from thy presence. Turne thou vs vnto thee O Lord and we shall bee turned: Lame. 5.21. Hosea 14 2. Psal. 32 5.6 7 take away all our iniquity and saue vs graciously: O Lord we doe finde in thy word, which is written for our learning, that thy seruant Dauid con­fessed his sinnes vnto thee, and thou for­gauest him, and that euery one that is god­ly maketh his prayer vnto thee, in a time when thou maist bee found: and that as a father pittieth his owne children, so thou art mercifull vnto them that feare thee, Psa. 103.13.145.18. and thou art neere to all them that call vpon thee faithfully: we pray thee therefore for Iesus Christ his sake to heare vs now with sorrowfull hearts confessing our Epicu­risme, Atheisme, our grosse impiety & wic­ked infidelity, wherby we became worse thē the diuels, for they beleeue there is a God, and tremble: but wee f [...]ared no God at all, we were so led by our owne lust, and so fol­lowed the fashions of the world, that wee had no minde to call vpon thee, but forsa­king thee and thy word to keepe company with the wicked, wee were defiled in their [Page 35]pitch, corrupted in their wayes, and sate downe in the scornefull seate wherein wee so oft and so offensiuely scoft at al Religion, and all shew of deuotion, that now through thy great mercy hauing some feeling of the burthen of our sins, we do wonder that we with our houses haue not long since felt that fearefull fiery vengeance which Sodom and Gomorah felt, or that hell did not swal­low vs vp quicke, as the earth did Corah and his company: Num. [...]6. [...]2. O Lord what haue they done, that we haue not done, we know not what to say, but that thy iustice appeareth in destroying them, and thy vnspeakeable mercy is shewed in sparing vs, which spa­ring of vs beeing now through thy grace (for which we giue thee praise) so sensibly felt, doth put vs in hope, that as thou hast begunne to worke a new birth in vs, so thou wilt sanctifie vs more and more with thy holy spirit, and neuer leaue vs till by the fruits of a sound faith thou doe assure vs we are effectually called, and so are of the number of those that bee elected in Christ to eternall life: Wherefore wee pray thee deere father, sithence of thy goodnes, thou shast taught vs, and we haue learned, not on­ly that there is a God, but also that thou which art immortall, inuisible and onely [Page 36]wise, art the onely true God whom wee ought to feare, and in whom wee must be­leeue, and that thou art about our path & a­bout our bed; spiest out al our waies, know­est all our words as being so resident euery where by thy spirit, that wee can goe no where from thy presence: we pray thee haue mercy vpon vs, to forgiue vs all that is past, to try vs and seek the ground of our hearts, Psal. 139.23. proue and know our thoughts, consider if there be any wickednesse in vs, rid vs out of it, and lead vs in the true way that bringeth to the true life: wee beg these things and whatsoeuer thou knowest needfull for vs and thy holy Church, in his name, and for his sake, which is the way, the truth, and the life, saying as he hath taught vs, Our father which art in heauen, &c.

When these or any other that haue offended (as who hath not) haue made these or the like prayers: confessing their sinnes with true sorrow of heart, what shall they take to comfort their hearts againe? if you haue no softer salt I must seeke further, for I feare this salt will nothing but fret them.

There are diuers sorts of Salt to be had at Bible-Spring, some is sharp, that [...]rueth to consume grosse humors, some is [Page 37]more milde & hath vertue to heale wounds, but because some Physitions setting down what is good for the heart, say maces is best of all; Hospit. p. 42. Cant. 2.5. and the Spowse in the Canticles de­sireth to bee comforted with apples: you may call that which I shall now deliuer vn­to you apples, or maces, or wine and milke as the Prophet Esay calleth that which hee deliuereth, where he maketh his cry saying, Ho euery one that is thirsty come yee to the waters, Esay 55.12. and yee that haue no siluer come buy, and eate, come I say buy wine and milke without siluer and without mo­ney.

If men must not pay money for this milke and wine: with what must they buy it?

He telleth them in the second and third verses saying: Hearken diligently vn­to mee, and eate that which is good, & let your soule delight in fatnesse, incline your eares and come vnto mee, heare, and your soule shall liue.

It should seeme by his calling for hearing, and eating with delight, that it is the word of God, or some other spiritu­all gift, which is there meant by waters, wine, milke and fatnesse.

Some by waters vnderstand the [Page 38]waters of grace in this present life, Nicola d [...]ly­ra. and of glory in the heauenly Citty to bee giuen by Christ himselfe, according as hee himselfe saith.

Hee which shall drinke of the waters which I shall giue him shall neuer be more a thirst, [...]oh. 4.14. but the water which I shal giue him shall be in him a fountaine of water, sprin­ging vp to eternall life.

By wine and milke the same writer vn­derstandeth the good things of grace and glory, Benagr. & gl [...]. and by fatnesse the fatnesse of grace likewise.

Well, let me haue some of this spi­rituall nourishing wine and milke, or what­soeuer you list to call it.

Yee shall, and first I will beginne where the aforesaid Prophet made his cry.

Seeke the Lord while he may bee found, Esay 55.6. call yee vpon him while he is neere.

[...] Let the wicked forsake his waies, and the vnrighteous his owne imaginations, & returne vnto the Lord and he wil haue mer­cy vpon him, and to our God, for he is very ready to forgiue.

My soule praise thou the Lord, and all that is within me praise his holy name. [...]. 103.8.

[...] My soule praise thou the Lord & forget not all his benefits.

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5 Which forgiueth all thine iniquities and healeth all thine infirmities.

6 Which redeemeth the life frō the graue, and crowneth thee with mercy and com­passion.

8 The Lord is full of compassion and mer­cy, slow to anger and of great kindnesse.

9 He will not alwaies chide, neither keepe his anger for euer, hee hath not dealt with vs after our sinnes, nor rewarded vs accor­ding to our iniquities.

18 The louing kindnesse of the Lord in­dureth for euer & euer vpon them that feare him, &c. & think vpon his commandements to do them.

Yea, but these for whom I come haue not feared the Lord nor made any rec­koning of his commandements.

This which I deliuer vnto you now, as Apples for comfort, is to bee set be­fore them when, as I said, they are well sea­soned with the salt of the law, containing a fearefull curse against all the trangressors of the same, and so beeing brought vnto a feeling of their sinne, are entred into the feare of God which is the beginning of wisedome. Pro. 9.10.

Then belike those which feare not God, how wise soeuer they seeme to [Page 40]themselues, haue not trodden one step in the path of true wisedome.

No doubt of that.

On then.

Who is a God like vnto thee that taketh away iniquity and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heri­tage: Mich. 7 18. hee retaineth not his wrath for euer, because mercy pleaseth him.

He will turne againe and haue compassi­on vpon vs: he will subdue our iniquities and cast all their sinnes into the bottome of the sea.

When the wicked turneth away from his wickednesse that hee hath committed, Ezek. 18.28. and doth that which is lawfull and right he shal saue his soule aliue.

28 Because hee considereth and turneth away from all his transgressions that hee hath committed, hee shall surely liue and not die.

32 I desire not the death of him that dyeth saith the Lord God, cause therefore one a­nother to returne and liue ye.

Shee shall bring forth a sonne, Mat. 1.11. and thou shall call his name Iesus, for he shall saue his people from their sinnes.

And loe a voyce came from heauen say­ing: 3.17. this is my beloued sonne in whom I am [Page 41] [...]ell pleased.

I am not come to call the righteous, 9.13. but [...]nners to repentance.

Saint Paul saith, this is a true saying, Tim 1.15. & [...]y all meanes worthy to bee reciued, that [...]esus Christ came into the world to saue [...]nners.

Come vnto me all ye that are laden (mea­ [...]ing with the burthen of their sinnes) and will ease you, Mat. 11.28,

Likewise, Luk. 15.10. I say vnto you there is ioy in [...]e presence of the Angels of God for one [...]nner that repenteth.

31 It was meete that we should make merry & be glad, for this thy brother was dead & [...]s aliue againe, and hee was lost, but hee is [...]ound.

As Moses lift vp the serpent in the wil­ [...]ernesse, Ioh. 3 14. so must the Sonne of man bee lift [...]p, that whosoeuer beleeueth in him [...]hould not perish but haue euerlasting life.

We beleeue (saith Saint Peter) through [...]he grace of our Lord Iesus Christ to bee [...]aued euen as they do. Acts 14 11.

And it was the same Peter that said: Acts 10.43. To [...]im giue all the Prophets witnesse, that [...]hrough his name all that beleeue in him, [...]hall receiue remission of sinnes.

Are those then that beleeue in [Page 42]Christ pardoned and saued, whether they feare God or feare him not, whether they serue sinne or righteousnesse?

What friend Chapman dost thou thinke that Saint Peter speakes of such [...] carnall faith as doth not carry about with it the feare of God? if there were some feare of God in Cornelius before Saint Pete [...] preached remission of sinnes vnto him through faith in Iesus Christ, as wee may see in Acts the 10 the 2 verse, no doubt i [...] was in him much more aboundantly after­ward, Assure thy selfe therefore my good friend y ^t where is a sound faith in our Sa­uiour, there is also y ^e feare of God, but each of those hath his proper office, for by faith we beleeue that Christ dying for our sins, [...] ­rising againe for our iustification, Rom 4.25. & 3 25. & 5 9. hath re­conciled vs vnto God, and that we, iustified by his bloud, shall bee saued from wrath through him, and feare ioyned to loue ser­ueth to bridle our corrupt affections, that we might walke worthy of our vocation, to the glory of God, the good example of others, and to the assuring of our owne selues, that we haue that faith, whose end, as Saint Peter saith, is the saluation of our soules. 1. Pet. 1.9.

Good Salter make an end with [Page 43] [...]im, or else I will be gone.

I haue done with him, if hee haue [...]one with me,

If it be so I may depart with­ [...]ut paying any thing for my Salt.

We will talke of that another time, [...]ome now my second Chapman what [...]ould you haue?

The second Chapman.

Would haue salt to season such as seeme to me not to bee so obedient to the Kings Maiesties lawes as they ought: Some will not come to Church, some will not com­ [...]unicate, some that be lusty and strong wil [...]ouch no fish on such daies as flesh is for­ [...]iden by the lawes, not as if it did defile [...]s of it selfe any day, but that as God hath [...]ent both, so both might be spent by strong [...]odies in fit time for the good of the com­ [...]on-wealth: I am in charity to iudge the [...]est of their loue and affection towards his Highnesse, Tim. 1.2. & such as bee in authority vnder [...]im, for whom we are bid to pray, but this [...] certaine many disobey, some in one thing, [Page 44]some in another.

Such as refuse to come to Chur [...] are not of the Prophet Dauids mind, w [...] in his Psalmes sheweth, that not onely h [...] himselfe loued to be in the house of y ^e Lor [...] but * reioyced to see others there also, Psal. 122. I [...] the Psalme 42 he sheweth that he was mu [...] grieued that he could not as aforetimes g [...] with the multitude and lead them into th [...] house of God with the voyce of singing an [...] praise. In the 84 he saith, his soule lo [...] ­geth, yea and fainteth for the courts of th [...] Lord, and that be had rather bee a dore-ke­per in the house of God then to dwell in th [...] tabernacles of wickednesse.

In the 95 Psalme he doth as it were kno [...] the bell calling the people together wit [...] Come, come, come, In the first vers [...] come let vs reioyce vnto the Lord. In th [...] second verse, let vs come before his fac [...] with praise, in the 6 verse, Come let v [...] fall downe and kneele before the Lord ou [...] maker, not meaning by the word Maker [...] Sacrament, which some in Popery hau [...] called their maker, saying: they had seen [...] there maker when they had seene the Hoa [...] lifted vp, for the Psalmes were made som [...] hundred yeares ere Christ tooke bread an [...] brake it, but by the Maker hee meant th [...] [Page 45]inuisible God, the Creator of all things, in­ [...] whose gates in the hundred Psalme, hee [...]ddeth the people enter with praise, and [...]nto his Courts with reioyeing, and in y ^e [...]salme 122 he saith, he reioyced when the [...]eople said vnto him, not as some now fro­ [...]ardly say, we will not, but wee will go vp [...]to the house of the Lord: and who know­ [...]h not it is a greater comfort to King He­ [...]kiah to heare that the third day he should [...] vp to the house of the Lord. If they do [...] forget these words, but thinke vpon [...]em well enough, then belike they take [...]ot our Church for the Lords Courts, be­ [...]use they see not Saint Dumbs image in [...]ery Church, before whom they might, in [...]nour of some other, bend and how, but [...]are you friend Chapman, doe you your [...]fe obserue euery iot and title of the law?

I am to craue pardon of God and [...]an for many things, and this I may say [...]ith a safe conscience, that I was neuer, I [...]aise God for it, so superstitiously bewit­ [...]ed but that vnderstanding that our late [...]re Queene, of famous memory, was, and [...]is our right dread Soueraigne Lord King [...]ames (thankes be to the Almighty) is a fa­ [...]urer of that Gospell which Saint Paul [...]ith, Rom. 1.16. is the power of God vnto saluation to euery [Page 46]one that beleeueth, & haue bene both of them very carefull that the holy Scriptures con­cording to the skil of those within this land are best learned in the tongues might bee faithfully and truely translated, the Sacra­ments rightly administred, and that al in the land both high and low might bee edified, and liue in peace, loue, and vnity, which are the badges of true Christianity, vnderstan­ding this (I say) I saw not with what consci­ence I might refuse to goe with my neigh­bours to the Church where the word of God is sounded out, and to ioyne with them in prayers for all estates and degrees, for all graces needfull, and for pardon for al our sinnes: I could neuer take him for a true Vicar of Christ, that would keepe me from hearing the word of God in a tongue that I vnderstood, or seemed more carefull to feede our sences with needlesse and barren ceremonies, then our foules with necessary and fruitfull Sermons. Touching meates, though I haue learned, that to the cleane, whose hearts are purified by faith, all things that God hath cleansed, and appointed to bee receiued with thankes-giuing, are as pure and cleane, as fish figs, and Almonds, &c. Yet for that God shall destroy both bellies and meates, and for that flesh by our [Page 47] [...]wes sometimes is forbidden, and fish [...]ommanded to be fed on (as I said before) [...]or the common good of the land, I like not [...]at yong lusty fellowes which can well di­ [...]est any kind of fish, should in time of re­ [...]raint, when they come to faires or mar­ [...]ets, seeke alwaies to places where the spits [...]re loaden with rost, and the ouens full of [...]esh pies: this maketh the Butcher busy, the [...]shmonger fume, and addeth strength to [...]nnefull flesh, which is prone enough of it [...]elfe to euill & needeth no flesh-pampering [...]o worke his owne woe. If sometimes [...]en haue found fish hurtfull vnto them, or [...]ot hauing good flesh present, should in the [...]eare of God, and without contempt of [...]awes eate some flesh, it is to be thought [...]hat as God preferreth mercy to sacrifice, so [...] Christian Magistrate, which wisheth as­ [...]ell to all his louing subiects, as a father [...]oth to his children, will consider of cir­ [...]umstances, and discerne betwixt the aged [...]nd some others that eate now and then, ei­ [...]her at home, or in tra [...]elling by the way for healths sake, warily and sparingly, and those [...]hat do it commonly, offensiuely, and con­ [...]emptuously, still refusing fish and calling [...]or flesh.

Though gracious Princes no doubt [Page 48]of it as appeereth by licences, do wish those that rule vnder them, not to deale hardly with the weaker sort and such as feare God in things that be of themselues indifferent least summum ius should become summa in­iuria, too much law-pressing, too much life crushing: yet it is good for subiects both vic­tualers & their guests, not to presume too much on pardons, nor do any thing royote­ously or in contempt of lawes but if in any point they faile in their obedience, to exa­mine themselues what reason they can re [...] ­der of their doing if they should be called to an account, and to take heed that their con­science condemne them not inwardly, for that which they seeme to allow outwardly: but my good Chapman it should appeare by your talke, you haue bene at Bible-Spring, where is store of the best salt, there I mar­uaile you brought none from thence for your purpose, but come to mee.

Hearing that you were in towne, and had salt of sundry sorts, I thought good to try some of it, to see whether it were right or no.

Come on then take this first.

Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers, Rom. 13.1. for there is no power but of God, & the powers that be, are ordained of God.

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Submit your selues vnto all manner or­dinance of man, for the Lords sake, whe­ther it be vnto the King, as vnto the Supe­riour, or vnto gouernors, as vnto them that are sent of him, for the punishment of euill doers, and for the praise of them that doe well.

If as S. Paul saith, there bee no power but of God; and if as S. Peter saith, we must submit our selues to all manner or­dinances of man, then it should seeme we must obey them in euery thing, least in dis­obeying them we disobey the ordinance of God.

You are to vnderstand that if God, which hath the hearts of Kings in his hand, set vp a power that regardeth not his lawes, but comandeth that which is con­trary vnto them, hating his faithfull mes­sengers, and making much of faithlesse flat­terers; that hee doth this partely to make knowne his wrath towards such as make more account of ly [...]s, then of the truth, partly that there might be some tryal wher­by Mycheas with his plaine speeches and bread of affliction, 1 Kin. 22. 11.17. might be knowne from Zedkijah and his false hornes: and faithfull Daniell discorned from those that drew on Darius to seale to their wicked decree. Dan. 6.8.9.

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But when that decree was sealed, was it not to bee taken as the Kings ordi­nance.

Whose ordinance soeuer it was, Daniell was not to submit himselfe because such submission was not [...] as Pe­ter saith, it was not for the Lord, it was not for his honour, it was not agreeable to his will, it was flat against the first commande­ment, and in very deed if he should haue re­frained from asking any thing at the hands of his God for the space of 30 daies, yea, if in that captiuity hee should haue asked any such petition of the King any one day, as he ought to haue asked of his God; he had not onely made the King an Idoll, but also kept such a silence as had beene more fit for one that faileth away from God, then for him, whom the King himselfe confessed to bee a man that alwaies serued his God: [...]an. 6.20. For you must vnderstand that by petitions in that place, is not ment such as subiects make to their Princes, to moue them to grant some thing, that is in their owne power, as if Daniel had framed a petition or supplica­tion to the King himselfe, to desire that of his Highnesse which hee required of the chiefe of the Eunuches, that is y ^t he might not defile himselfe with the portion of the [Page 51]Kings meate, and wine, for that petition had bene lawfull. But if Daniell had yéel­ded to make any such petitions to the King, as no doubt he vsed to make to the Almigh­ty, praying either that he, or his brethren, might doe nothing in that captiuity that might offend his gracious Maiesty, or that his anger and wrath might be turned away from his Citty Ierusalem, Dan. 9.16.17.18. that hee would cause his face to shine vpon his sanctuary for his great tender mercies, and that hee would heare, forgiue, consider, and doe it without deferring, &c. If I say he had yéel­ded to make, such or the like petitions to the King, it had bene grosse idolatry, and a to­ken that hee put his trust in man, which is forbidden, as in many other places; so in Psal. 146. v. 3.

Put not your trust in Princes, nor in any child of man, for there is no helpe in him.

In a word that man of God knew well, that such a yeelding would haue beene a re­ioycing to his enemies, and a greater tor­ment to his conscience, then the Lyons could haue brought to his carcase,

But I maruaile that Daniel should think the Kings portions would defile him, fith our Sauiour saith: Math. 15.110 That which goeth into the mouth defileth not a man.

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It is true that meate, and drinke, and such like, of themselues, as they are y ^e creatures of God, do no more defile a man, then the torches, tapers, crisme, oile, tuni­cles, chisibles, holy-water, holy-bread, whereof a learned and reuerend Father, In defense of the Apol p. 24. Printed 1570. sometimes a Bishop in this land, writeth thus: Verily Maister Harding, we hate not any of all these things, for wee know they are the creatures of God, but you haue so misused them, or rather defiled and bewray­ed them, with your superstitions, and so haue with the same mocked and deceiued Gods people, that we can no longer conti­nue them without great conscience: It is the abuse then, of meates, drinks, garments and such like, that hurteth, not the lawfull vse of them.

It is not like that Daniel would haue abused any meates or drinkes whatso­euer.

I grant it: But you must remem­ber that Daniel liued in a time wherein the people of God were not permitted to eate of many things, which the Christian man is allowed to eate of: It was not said to Daniel, eate what thou wilt as to Peter, kill and eate, what God hath cleansed count thou not common or vncleane: by which [Page 53]vision and voyce Peter was giuen to vn­derstand, that not onely meates forbidden by the Law, being now clensed, and meate­able might be vsed, Act. 9.13.15. but also the Gentiles such as Cornelius, &c. whom before being vncircumcised, the Iewes counted vncleane, were to heare of Christ, y ^t through faith in his bloud they might be purged and clean­sed from their sinnes, Daniel I say had not this liberty.

Then it should seeme that Daniel refused not that portion, because it was of the Kings meate, but for some other matter.

Some write that it was a custome in elder time to sette some of those meates, which had beene offered to Idols, on the Tables of great men; On which also some­times was set Swines-flesh, and other Meates, forbidden by the law of Moses. Daniell fearing least that some times such should be brought him, (perhaps also that he saw it was more fit in respect of the times, to take himselfe to a straight diet,) refused those Portions.

Was there nothing which had been sacrificed to Idoles sette on the Table before Christians in the Apostles times? 1. Cor. 1.1 [...].

It should seeme that there was: For S. Paule sayth: If any man see thee (which [Page 54]hast knowledge) sitte at the table in the I­dols Temple, [...]. or Banquet, shall not the con­science of him that is weake be built? (For so it is in the originall:) Meaning (as some translate) be boldned to eate those things which are sacrificed to Idoles, and through thy knowledge, shall thy weake Brother perish, for whom Christ dyed. By which words of the Apostle, and others, in Rom. 14. We see what a greeuous sinne it is for a man to be pufft vp, & so to seeke to please himselfe with his knowledge, that he ma­keth no conscience of offending, or setteth light by wounding him, which for that he is somewhat lightned with the knowledge of God, and hath begunne to hearken to the Doctrine of the Ghospell, is to be coun­ted a brother, & one of thē for whom Christ dyed: And for that he is not yet setled, nor come to the full knowledge of that libertie which Christ hath brought vs vnto, is to be dealt withall not roughly, but tenderly, as being yet weake in the sayth, and so eyther easily offended, or els drawen on to do this, or that, (which y ^e stronger in faith knoweth to be lawfull,) not hauing any other war­rant but the others example: For if he were throughly perswaded in the matter, his conscience should take no hurt thereby.

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What if there had beene some Christian Magistrate amongst the Carinthi­ans, that he had commanded the stronger in fayth, and such as had more knowledge then others of the Christian liberty (tou­ching the vse of Meates, Drinks, and such like,) to eate and drinke what they thought good, sacrificed, or not sacrificed, any man offended, or not offended? Ought such to haue obeyed?

You presuppose y ^t which could not be, for it there had beene a Christian Magi­strate amongst them, which had beene a sound professer of the Gospell, he would haue put downe all Idols. So no Idols, no Sacrifising to them, no sacrafising no such meate to offend.

But what if a Christian Magistrate which tendereth the honour of the true God, the peace of the Church, and the tran­quillity of the Kingdome, commaund any thing which of it selfe is counted of many great Clearks indifferent to be vsed in the Church, or els where, not attributing any holynes or speciall worthines to the same, but for decencie, grauitie, and order, and some not onely of the weakest sort, and such as haue lesse knowledge, but also of the strongest, such as haue lesse knowledge, [Page 56]but also of the strongest such as are kno­wen to haue studied diligently, and labou­red painefully, in some portion of the Lords haruest a long time, being also wel reported of, for their life and conuersation? What I say if these be offended to see such things vsed, should others that are not of their minde forbeare the vse of them for their sakes?

I cannot gather by any of the A­postles words, that the strongest, and such as knew well what belonged to the Christi­an libertie, were then offended with such ex­ternall thinges as you speake of; no, not though they had been abused by Idolaters: But I find the Apostle forbidding the des­pising, and iudging one an other. Rom 14.3.12.13. I find him selling vs, that euery one of vs shall giue accomptes of himselfe to God, that no man should put an occasion to fall, or a stumbling blocke before his Brother, that the weake conscience of those, that with conscience of the Idoll did eate as a thing sacrificed vnto it was defiled, 1. Cor 8.7. Rom. 14.5. 1. Cor. 10.13.34. that euery man should be ful­ly perswaded in his minde, that all things are not expedient, neyther doe edefie, that he would haue no offence giuen, neyther to Iewe, nor Gretian, nor to y ^e Church of God.

If the higher power command me [Page 57]to do that which my neighbour is grieued at; it cannot be, but I shall offend one of them, either the Commander, or my neigh­bour.

That is all one, as if you should haue said, I shall offend either my neighbour or my neighbour: for my Prince is my neigh­hour, I proue it thus:

He whom I ought to loue as my selfe is my neighbour; but I ought to loue my Prince as my selfe, for I ought to aduen­ture my life for his safety, farre more willingly then for my selfe: for that vnder God he is the light and peace of the whole land: ergo, he is my neighbour, and such a neighbour to whom I owe more honor du­ty and obedience, then to any other on earth whosoeuer: So that if I bee perswaded, that I may with a quyet conscience obey his commandements, and haue the testi­mony of my conscience, that I haue no mind to put any stūbling blocke before my brother, nor to do any thing of purpose to offend any Gods seruants: (for that de­serueth the milstone about the necke, Mat. 18.6. &c.) In this case my brother is rather, in my simple iudgment, to proue his owne works, and to looke what reason he can render for his refusing, if hee bee commanded to doe [Page 58]the like, then to be angry or offended with me, which though I framed my selfe to o­bedience, yet not as one willing to touch, much lesse to wound his conscience, bee it neuer so weake, or strong: neither am I so frée in this case, as they that did eate meate offered to Idols: for I am commanded by a Christian Prince to doe that I do, but no man commanded them to do that.

So I see your minde, let me haue some more of your Canonicall salt, to see if that will season any of the Recusants, espe­cially such as haue more will then wit.

If that which they haue had, to wit: Let euery soule be subiect to the high­er powers, &c. And submit your selues to all maner or dinance of man, for the Lords sake, &c. will not serue your turne, I know not what to say to you.

I know it is sound, but let me haue a little more.

Then take it as I shake it.

He whom we ought to feare and honour next to the Lord, is to be obeyed next vnto him, and for him: but where the feare of God is required, the feare of the King is required next, both by Salomon, which saith:

My sonne, Prou. 24.21. feare the Lord and the King, [Page 59] [...]nd meddle not with them that are sediti­ [...]us. And S, Peter also (after these words: 1. Pet. 2.17. Honour all men, loue brotherly felowship) [...]aith: Feare God, honor the King: where­ [...]y hee teacheth vs, that though wee owe a [...]inde of honour to all men, yet the King is to be honoured aboue all the rest: this being so, I may safely conclude, that the King is to be obeyed in the Lord, who commandeth vs to honour him.

The fifth Commandement also biddeth vs honour Father and Mother: Now that stretcheth to the King, which is a father to the country: as a father then thinketh him­selfe not to bee honoured, if his sonne obey him not, which made Salomon say: Prou. 6.20. My sonne, keepe thy fathers commaunde­ments. And Saint. Paul: Ephes. 6.1. Children obey your parents in the Lord: So a King doth not thinke himselfe honoured of those that frame not themselues to obey him in the Lord. To command to goe to Church, to heare Gods word, to pray to him, to praise him, to shew forth the Lords death, &c. is to command in the Lord: if then in this, and the like wee stubbornely disobey him, wee giue him not the honour due vnto him; to finde fault with translations, and to say, we are cut off from the head, are stumbling-blockes [Page 60]of their owne laying: for our tran [...]slations which we haue already, dare shew their faces in any place in the world, wher [...] their old Latine vulgar edition dare, and s [...] long as the Apostle Paul teacheth, Tha [...] Christ is the head of the Church, Eph. 5.23. Contra Cresco­mum, lib. 3. cap. 5. Dix [...]plane & d [...]o, ibid. which lesson S. Augustine hauing learned, wrote thus: Christus Christianisit caput, let Christ be the Christian mans head. And S. Peter, that the King is the superior, (vnto whose ordinances, if the Christians were to sub­mit themselues in his time in ciuill mat­ters, why should not we submit our selues vnto them in Ecclesiasticall matters also, now when God in his mercy hath made them not onely receiuers of the saith, but also defenders of the same) so long I say as we are thus taught, and so haue learned: why should any say, that we are cut off from the head, & seeke to ioyne the whole Church militant to one ministeriall head: I must needs confesse, that it were a blessed thing, and very comfortable to all that professe the religion of the crucified Christ, if when there bee iarres in the Church, wee might finde some one man, or many in Rome, or any where else, that were so assured of his or their not erring, M. Hard. in Confut. as that whatsoeuer hee or they said by way of iudgement (to vse [Page 61]their owne words) and sentence definatiue in doubtful points touching religion might safely be taken for truth: for my part, if I [...]ould méete with any such, I would giue them as much reuerence as were lawfull to be giuen to any man.

What if they should put forth their feet to be kist.

I finde that our Sauiour to teach humility, washt other mens feet, but I doe not read that he required any either to kisse or wash his feete, though no man were too good to do it, and those that did it, were to bee commended for their loue, as shee that powred oyntment on him is to bee remem­bred wheresoeuer the Gospell shall be prea­ched; to be remembred, I say, not by pain­ting her with a whip in her hand, Luke 7.38. Math. 26.13. as if shée were a Iesuite, but her doing is to bee spo­ken of.

Your talking of translations hath made you digresse from the salt of obedi­ence, returne to it againe.

I will: Wee are to obey those in God for whom we must pray, Tim. 1.2. Pro. 8.15.1 [...]. Pro. 12.1. which reigne and rule by God, and for the glory of God, who turneth the hearts whithersoeuer it pleaseth him; but godly Kings are such, therefore so to be obeyed.

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We are to obey that Ruler which loueth him that speaketh right things, Prou. 16.13. Prou. 20.26. scattereth the wicked, and causeth the whéele to go [...] ouer them: but this is done by a wise King therefore we are to obey him.

We are to feare to offend him, whose wrath and feare is like the roaring of a Ly­on, Prou. 19.12. Prous 20 2. and in the light of whose countenance is life: Prou. 16.15. but such are these things in a King, therefore we should feare to offend him.

We are to loue, honour, and obey him who sitteth in his Throne, Prou. 20.8. Prou. 29.4. chaseth away e­uill with his eyes, and by iudgement main­taineth the Country: but so doth a King, as Salomon saith: ergo, we are to loue, ho­nour, and obey him.

It is a shame for reasonable creatures ha­uing a King, not to do that which Grasse-hopper, swanting both reason and a King, do: Prou. 30.27. The Grasse-hopper (saith the same Sa­lomon) hath no King, yet goe they forth all by bands, meaning they kéepe order, though they haue no guide.

The faithfull subiects that séeke the peace of the Church, the common good, their own good, and the fauour of God, are to obey such commandements of their King, as are in the same predicament, (if I may so speake) in which were the commandements of that [Page 63]good King Hezechias; but these comman­dements: Goe to Church, heare Gods word, communicate, pray for vnity, peace and concord, &c. are of the same kinde as his were: therefore they are to be obeyed, &c.

What commandement of Heze­chias do you speake of?

Such as are mentioned, Vers. [...]. 2. Chron. 30. where it is said, that Hezekias sent to all Israel and Iudah, and also wrote Letters to Ephraim and Manasses, that they should come to the house of the Lord at Ierusalem, to keepe the Passouer vnto the Lord God of Israel: So the Priests went with Let­ters by the Cōmission of the King and his Princes, through all Israel and Iudah, and with the commandement of the King, say­ing: Yee children of Israel and Iudah, turne againe vnto the Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and he will returne to the remnant that are escaped of you out of the hands of the King of Ashur.

7 And be not you like your Fathers, & like your brethren, which trespassed against the Lord God of your Fathers, and therefore hee made them desolate as yee see.

8 Be not ye stiffe-necked like your Fathers, but giue the hand to the Lord, and come into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified [Page 64]for euer, and serue the Lord your God and the fiercenesse of his wrath shall turn [...] away from you.

For if you returne vnto the Lord, your brethren and your children shall finde mer­cy before them that led them captiues, and they shall returne vnto this land: for the Lord your God is gracious and mercifull, and will not turne away his face from you, if you conuert vnto him.

What entertainment had those Posts in the the land of Ephraim, Manasseth and Zabulom.

Some laughed them to scorne, and mocked them, and some submitted them­selues, and came to Ierusalem.

And what did they of Iudea?

The hand of God was in Iudah, so that he gaue them one heart to do the com­mandement of the King, and of the Ruler, according to the word of y ^e Lord, and when it shall please the same God that gaue them one heart, to giue vs in this land one heart also, wee shall doe the Commandement of our King and Rulers, according to the word of the Lord: for if wee had all that heart, if there were vnity, then as they in Iudea came into y ^e house of the Lord to serue him and to kéepe the Passouer vnto him: [Page 65]so should all wee in this land go to the Church, serue God, and in communicating shew forth the death of our Sauiour with thankes-giuing, vntill hee come. 1. Cor. 11.26 Wee should not be some in the Church, and some in the chamber; Some doing that which Christ commanded to bee done in remem­brance of him, & some knéeling before some worke of Mans hand; Luke 22.1 [...] Some hearkening to the preaching of Christ crucified, & some contenting themselues with hearing a Masse, and looking on a Crucifixe; Some through faith, féeding in Christ, which is aboue, sitting (as Paul saith) at the right hand of God, Col. 3.1. Heb. 1.3.8. Ca. 8.5.1. which to the He­brues is called, the right hand of Maiesty in the highest places, and other some after certaine words spoken, and grossely vnder­stood, séeking for him in forme of bread, as if our Sauiour when hee said: This is my body, had either two bodies, or else one and the same body, at one and the same time, seene and heard at the Table, and hid and si­lent in the bread.

I wonder that they holding a bo­dily presence, will themselues bee bodily absent.

They absent themselues from our Church, not only in body but also in Spirit, [Page 66]they haue no minde to vs, nor to our con­gregations.

It may be they thinke there be as many things that need clensing, as needed clensing in Ierusalem, when Hezechiah be­gan to reigne, at which time, as I haue heard, there were many things amisse.

Indéed that godly King found high places, images, and groues, all which hee tooke away; and when hee had brought the Priests and Leuites into the east stréet, hee said vnto them: Heare me you Leuits, san­ctifie your selues, 2 King. 18 4 3. Cro. 29.5. and sanctifie the house of the Lord God of your Fathers, and carry forth the filthinesse out of the Sanctuary: For our Fathers haue trespassed, and done euill in the eyes of the Lord our God, and haue forsaken him, and turned away their faces from the Tabernacle of the Lord, and turned their backes.

7 The haue also shut the doores of the porch, and quenched the Lampes, and haue neither burnt Incense, nor offered burnt offerings in the Sanctuary, vnto the God of Israel.

I thinke our Recusants haue Lamps and Incense still.

They haue, or would haue, and I­mages too, but they forget that those lamps, [Page 67]and those offerings, were signes of our Sa­uiour Christ, which is called the light of the world, and was once offered to take away the sinnes of many, Heb. 9.28. as they may reade in y ^e Epistle to the Hebrues: where also they shall finde, that the Priests, Heb. 8.4. according to the Law, offered guifts, which serue vnto the Patterne of heauenly things. Reu. 8.3. And in the Reuelation they may reade of an Angel that had a golden Censer, & much odours were giuen vnto him, that hee should offer with the praiers of all Saints, vpon the golden Altar, &c. Whereby wee are giuen to vnderstand, that euen the prayers of the faithfull, are no other waies accepted then through the sweete smelling merits of our Sauiour Christ, who hauing brought the light of the Gospell, giuen himselfe to death for vs, and finished whatsoeuer in the Law was figured; Lamps, incense, and burnt of­ferings and such like, must now cease.

May not the Preachers of the truth be called Lamps and Lights?

Yes, so long as they leade vs to Christ which is the true light of y ^e world, and many such Lampes were put out, not quenched with water, but consumed with fire in the Bonerian daies: God grant all Princes to take héed how they put out [Page 68]such lamps as shew the way to life eternall. The same Spirit that said: Touch not mine annoynted, said also: Do my Prophets no harme, Psa. 105.5. the learned know who are meant by annoynted in that place.

Doe not you thinke that many of the superstitious Catholickes (for by that word I distinguish them from such Catho­lickes as are sincere) did not murmure in the daies of our late Soueraigne, when they saw the pictures of Lions & Dragōs painted where they were wont to see such pictures as bare the names of Christ, Mary, and Iohn?

I know not whether they did or no, but if they did, they had no reason for it, sith the Armes of Princes, which professe the Gospell, with the supporters, whether they be Lyons Dragons, or Vnicornes, be­ing painted in Churches, do signifie, that the Prince, whose Armes those are, is a defender of the faith, and of the pure wor­ship of the liuing God, and that hee is su­preme Gouernour in all causes, and ouer all persons not onely Ciuill, but also Ec­clesiasticall, next and immediately vn­der Christ in his owne Dominions: who knowes not the simple people are more ea­sily drawne to make Idols of the pictures of Saints, then of beasts? and therefore the [Page 69]remouing of their pictures, and the placing of Arms in their roome, is no sufficient cause to kéepe them from Church, as if Christian Princes were to be reckoned amongst those that set vp their banners for tokens. Psal. 74.4.

Sure I thinke some of them could frame themselues to come to Church, not­withstanding the want of Images, but that they haue beene away so long.

This is no good excuse for a man to say, I cannot doe this or that, because I haue not done it in a great time, for then Israel, and Iudah, might haue made that excuse for not comming to Ierusalem, to keepe the Passeouer in the second Moneth, for that it is said, they had not done it in a great time, as it was written. 2 Chro. 30

I will trouble you no more about this matter.

My good friend talke not of trou­bling mee, it is the King and those that go­uerne vnder his Maiesty, that are troubled, they see there be sundry opinions, and that the fauourers of each would bee tollerated to haue their owne way, which if it should be granted, then the land, though it haue a godly King, should appeare as if it had none. But wise and godly Kings, which [Page 70]make much of them that are knowne to feare the Lord, suffer not euery man, especi­ally the idolaters, to do what seemeth good in their own eyes, but do what in thē lyeth: that first God, by whom they raigne, bee purely worshipped, and then that the land be quietly gouerned, and as they no doubt pray for their subiects after the example of Ezekiah (who praying for such as were not throughly cleansed) said: The good Lord be mercifull towards him that prepareth his whole heart to seeke the Lord God of his fathers, 2. Chron. 30.18.19. though hee bee not cleansed accor­ding to the purification of the sanctuary: So ought all louing and faithfull subiects heartily to pray for their Princes, that it would please the Almighty to direct their wordes, thoughts, and déeds, to his glory and good of the Church, and to giue them wisedome whereby they may discerne be­twixt those that prepare their hearts to serue God in sincerity according to his word though they haue their faults (as who hath not too many) and those that serue him superstitiously according to their owne fan­tasies, though they haue heard, or might haue heard a thousand times, y ^t whatsoeuer is not of faith is sin, Rom. [...]4.23. and that we must not be wise in our owne opinions.

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For my part I haue so prayed, and by the grace of God will pray so still, and I beseech him for his sake that shed his most precious bloud for vs on the crosse to frame such obedience in vs all (first towards his owne diuine Maiesty, and then to our good King) as shall bee most acceptable in his sight, that such as be in authority, for whom we are bound to pray, may gouerne vs with comfort, and not with griefe, and thus I leaue you, because here is one looketh as if he thought vs long.

The third Chapman.

I Haue thought you long indeed.

Your long tarrying shall bee re­compensed with a quicke seruing: what would you haue?

I would haue salt to season some which seeme not to giue so good eare to Sermons as they haue done.

How doth that appeare?

By there talking and sometimes sleeping in time of the Sermon & prayers.

When one beginneth to shrinke [Page 72]from that whereto God hath called him, hée shall haue meanes ready at hand to further him therein: If Ionas will flye to Tarshish he shall find a ship ready at Iapho, to carry him from the presence of the Lord, that is, from presenting himselfe to the place, whe­ther the Lord sent him to cry against it. otherwise, as appeared by the mighty tem­pest, hee could not flye from the presence of him that is euery where: Tell mee I pray, are the men you come for any thing lear­ned?

Yes they can read well.

Then they know what Salt is good in such a case.

Wee haue haue not alwaies that in remembrance which we know.

Indéed I remember S Paul saith to the Romanes: Neuerthelesse brethren I haue somewhat boldly, Rom. 15.15. after a sort, written to you, as one that putteth you in remem­brance, &c. Saint Peter also seemeth to be of that opinion, [...]. Pet. 12.1 [...]. saying: Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you alwaies in re­membrance of these things, though yee haue knowledge and bee established in the truth, for I thinke it meete, so long as I am in this Tabernacle, to stirre you vp by put­ting you in remembrance, And our Saui­our [Page 73]Christ though he knew that they to whom he spake were not ignorant of that which is written of Lots wife, how, after he looking backe, shee was turned into a pillar of salt: Yet he said: remember Lots wife.

If some Recusant were heere, he or she would say this of Lots wife is a good watch-word for vs to take heed of you, and your Salt.

If I or any other would haue them looke backe with an affection to any thing that God doth abhorre, they should do well to take heede of such looking backe: but for as much as the going backe from grosse superstition is a going forward in a sincere religion, they neede not feare the Salt, which I or any other, shall bring to that end.

For my part I feare not your Salt, but I feare I shall be called foole of those for whom I fetch it.

He that is faint-hearted before hée comes to the battell, were better to stay at home, then go to discourage others, plucke vp your heart man and remember, that wise men suffer fooles gladly: if a wisemans foote should slip, and some simple fellow should stay him from falling, would that [Page 74]wiseman thinke you, frowne vpon the poore man, that thought him no hurt but good?

Since you so incourage mee, let me see what I shall carry.

Take heed that no man fall away from the grace of God: [...]. Cor. 10.12. Heb. 5.15. & 10.38. if any with-draw himselfe, my soule shall haue no pleasure in him.

My sheepe heare my voyce. Ioh. 10.

Heare my doctrine ô my people, Prou. 5.1. incline your eares vnto the words of my mouth.

There are many disobedient and vaine talkers, [...]r. 1.10. cheifly they of the circumcision.

I do not thinke that the Apostle in those words findeth fault onely with such as by their vaine talke goe about to deceiue mens mindes at Sermons.

Neither doe I cite that place as if I so thought, but thus I gather from those words, if such deserue reproofe, and to bee shunned, as labor to deceiue mens minds at any time, then cheifly such as doe so in time of Sermon, or reading of the holy Scriptures, which are meanes to reforme & not to deceiue.

Well go on.

Behold a Sower went forth to sow, Math. 13.38.4. & as he sowed, some fell by the waies [Page 75]side, and the Fowles came and deuoured [...]hem vp, &c.

I haue somewhat against thee, Reu. 2.4. because [...]hou hast lost thy first loue.

Remember therefore from whom thou [...]rt fallen, and repent, &c.

No man that putteth his hand vnto the [...]low, Lam, 9.62. and looketh backe, is apt to the king­dome of God.

Finally, my brethren, bee strong in the Lord, Ephe. 6.10. and in the power of his might put on the whole armour of God, that yee may be able to stand against the assaults of the Diuell.

They are not acquainted with this armour, which arme themselues to destroy the Lords annoynted.

No indéed Chapman, for their loines be not girded with y ^e verity, but with vani­ties, superstition, and idolatrie, they haue not put on y ^e breast plate of righteousnes but of sin & wickednes, Psal. 124.6. they be armed with vo­lumus hos spoliare, & with y ^e pride of nolu­mus hunc regnare, the would giue y ^e crowne the foile, to y ^e end they might come to the spoyle, but praised be y ^e Lord yea an hundred thousand tunes blessed bee his holy name, which hath not giuen his Maiesty, his Pro­geny, his Nobility, & other faithfull Sub­iects [Page 76]as a prey vnto the teeth of such blou [...] thirsty men, whose féete be not shod with preparation of y ^e Gospell of peace, but wi [...] a masse of massacres battle and bloud: the [...] haue not the shield of faith to quench y ^e fie [...] darts of y ^e wicked, but of some Popish di [...] pensatiō or of some fond imaginatiō, vnto [...] which while y ^e trusted thinking therby to b [...] aduanced, they threw thēselues down head long into perpetual confusion: many thing [...] are laid to y ^e charge of such as wish Papish gone, with bag & baggage: as y ^• they are a w ^t soning crue, quarrelsome, sectaries, agrée w ^t the Annabaptists, &c. but for ought y ^• I ca [...] sée, they are so far from thinking on any such hellish stratagems, that for y ^e defence of our right déere Soueraigne, the Gospell, & their country, they would spend each drop of bloud in their bodies, God grant all those that professe the Gospell sincerely, so to loue one another, that if néede require we may fight together against the common ene­my.

Alasse how should they fight that haue lost their liuings, though a man had mony to buy him a weapon, yet if his body bee weake for want of nourish­ment hee will scarce bee able to kill a frog.

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It were good they had maintenance, [...]nd weapons too, to defend themselues [...]om their Enemies: I know the Lord is [...]ur best Buckler, he is onely our support, Psal. 23. [...]hat Horses, Bowes▪ and Swords, can not [...]ue men, yet he that saide so, 1. Sam. 40.45.47. had a Sling [...]nd a Stone, though he trusted not in them, [...]ut in the Lord of Hostes, who the very [...]ame day that the Philistine had thought to [...]aue giuen Dauids flesh vnto the Foules of [...]e Heauen, and to the Beastes of the field, [...]losed him in Dauids hands, and so his owne [...]ead was cutte off with his owne Sword: Such as make pittes for such as feare God, [...]oe oft-times fall ints the same themselues.

But how fell wee to talke of this, from talking of such as talke in time of Sermon?

I cited that place in Saint Paule, where he biddeth the Ephesians put on all the Armour of God, and so we digrest to the Armour of the wicked; who if they made any reconing of the Scriptures, they would [...]reade them oftner then they doe, and in reading, note that Dauid was touched in his heart, when he had cut off but the [...]lappe of Saules Garment, that though A­mon worshiped his Fathers Idols, yet by the iust iudgement of God, 2. King. 21.2 [...].23. the people of the [Page 78]Land slew all those that conspired agains [...] him, and that though King Pekaiah did euil [...] in the sight of the Lord, yet Captaine Peka [...] that slew him to raigne in his steed, wa [...] himselfe slaine by Hosea, the Sonne of Ela [...] If these wicked Walkers (for I haue don [...] with the Church talkers, hoping I shal [...] neede to say no more of that matter,) would remember those histories, and the fall o [...] Traytors in all ages, and how that th [...] Lord hath not only forbidden to touch, wil [...] bloudy hands, his Annointed, and the heri [...] ­tage of his Prophets, but also threatne [...] that the bloudthirstie, and vngodly men [...] whom he abhorreth, shall not liue out half [...] their dayes, they would not imagine suc [...] mischitfe vpon their beds, and conceiue much lesse bring foorth such monstrou [...] fruite. Alar▪ Lib. vniuer. iuri. Histor. de­s [...]ip, pag. [...]5. The day in which proude Tarqui [...] was banished, was called Regifugium, I [...] were well if the fifth of Nouember wer [...] called Papae-fugium, for that I wishe [...] raigned no longer in any mans hart here, [...] these be theire fruites.

If they escaped not that conspired against bad Kings, how shall they be fre [...] that rise vp against a good King, which by his calling of a Conference, and by his Pro­clamations, and by his Bookes, hath mad [...] [Page 79] [...] knowne to all that will not be willfuly [...]gnorant, that he hath great care that all things may be wel ordered, both in Church, and Common wealth? If any haue Popish Pardons for such pestilent plots, they came not from the Chaire of Peter, who sayeth euen in that translation which they most esteeme, Feare God, honour the King. But from some other bloudy bench where Sa­than hath a throne, I thinke few of these we speake of come to our Churches.

I thinke so to, but if they would come with a minde desirous to finde the trueth, and pray from their hearts, that it would please God to deliuer them from whatsoeuer offendeth his Maiestie. If they would call afterknowledge, Pro. 2.3.4. and cry for vn­derstanding; If they would search for her as they would for siluer, and treasure, then (as Salomon sayth) they should vnderstand the feare of the Lord, and finde the know­ledge of God.

The Lord for his tender mercies graunt that both we, and they, may so seeke for the true knowledge of God, and of his true worship, as that we may find it, and finding it, may hold it fast vnto the end; and so I leaue you, making roome for the next Chapman.

The sixth Chapman.

I am next.

You should say, I would be next, as he saide that offered largely for the Bene­fice, before the bell rang out for the olde Parson. What salte would you haue?

I would haue Salt, to season a pin­ching Patron.

Verily I do heare many complaine of y ^e vncōscionable dealing of many Patrons, some care not for y ^e feeding of soules, so their bodies may haue y ^e greatest portion, of that which in time of lesse light was alotted to y ^e Church ministers: A modicum must serue many Ministers now, for feare of surfeting: Some others would seeme willing to haue a preaching Minister, and to giue the Be­nefice freely; But their Wiues, or some of [Page 110]their Children, must see more Angels then one descend, ere the Scholler that hath been long payned with pouerty, be put into the Poole of Bethesda to be cured: If Homer come thither empty-handed, there is no place for him, or if they refraine to couenant with him, because of his oath, which he is to take before the Bishoppe: yet some of his Friends must promise, or enter into bands, to pay a round summe of money, and that hee which would bee the next incumbent, must not looke for such and such commodi­ties, & this is not onely a shrewd pinching of purses, but also a great trouble of minde to him that must take an oath to performe none of their promises; for he is in a straight on both sides, i [...] he pay not, then his friends must pay, or loose their credit: if hee pay y ^e which he promised, then hee is for-sworne, but he that feareth God, howsoeuer he bee willing to be thankfull, yet in no case will he be found perinr'd.

A number care not what becoms of the Parson and people, so they may poc­ket the pounds, but therein they walke not in the steps of Abraham, for hee faid to the King of Zodom: Giue me the persons, take thou the goods.

It should seeme that such Patrons [Page 111]do not, Gen, 14. or will not know, what belongeth to a good Patron.

Whom doe you thinke to bee a good Patron?

He that is carefull to present such a Pastour as hath a good report, both for his learning and life, and that is so farre from reseruing any commodity, that belon­geth to the Minister, to himselfe, that hee doth what in him lyeth to keep him from ta­king any wrong: he will cause his Tenants to make knowne all the glebe, and all the customes of the Parish for paying of tithes, calleth on the incumbent to repaire the hou­ses, forbiddeth him to make any spoile of a­ny thing that is on y ^e ground, and seeth y ^e his Executors carry away no Tables, Formes, Graners, Glasse, nor any thing that was giuen to the Parsonage, neither doth him­selfe desire to haue any of his owne Tithes, without recompence.

If the Patron should be so carefull, for the Parson, and haue nothing for his la­bour, but a power to present, he may seeme to be worse delt with, then a Gentlemans Bailiffe for he hath somthing for his paines.

So hath euery good patron, for he is honoured of men, and beloued of God, as euery Magistrate is that doth good in his [Page 112]place.

True, but yet few delight in wor­ship, without wealth: If Patrons reserue their ownetithes, will not theire wealth be the more?

If the Patron without contenting the incumbent, will keepe his owne Tithes to himselfe; men will say he giues nothing to the Leacher for his paines: The mainte­nance he hath, is from the rest of the Parish. Many thinke to thriue, by withholding that which by the Lawes is due to an other, and by shifting their Cattle out of one ground into an other, to saue some Lambes, & Flee­ces, which might fall to Tithes, not regar­ding that saying of S. Paule: If we sowe vnto you spirituall things, is it a great mat­ter if we reape your carnall thinges? I should thinke that all such as thinke to thriue by couetousnesse, and fraude, haue good cause to amend, lest theire thriuing be like theirs that neglected the building of the Lords house, to whome the Lord saide: Con­sider your owne waies in your hearts: You haue sowen much, [...]agg. 1. vers. 7▪ 6▪ and bring in little: Yea eate, but you haue not ynough: yea drinke, but you are not filled: yea cloath you, but you be not warme: and he that earneth wa­ges, putteth the wages into a broken bagge. [Page 113]Yea looked for much, & loe it came to little: & when ye brought it home, I did blow vp­on it. &c. Meaning that he would curse their blessings, as he threatneth those Priests in Malach, which gaue not glory to his name. Mal. 2.2. I tell thée friende Chapm [...]n, there is neither Prince, Priest, nor peop [...]e, y ^e God regardeth, if they regard not his wo [...]. If we would be­leeue y ^e word of god, we [...]ould hate wrong, and do right to euery ma [...]; wee would not make loue to giue place to our stomacks; we would not thinke to thriue by griping, but beleeue the blessings are vpon the head of the Righteous, Pro. 10. vers. 6.7.22. and that the memoriall of the iust shall be blessed, but the name of the wicked shall rotte, and that the blessing of the Lord maketh ritch, Pro. 15.8. And that better is a little with righteousnesse, then great reue­nues without equitie. And that a man with a wicked eye hasteth to riches, Pro 28▪ 22▪ and knoweth not that pouertie shall come vpon him.

These, and the like places, should mooue men to loue iust dealing, but would you not haue Ministers shew kindnesse to them that presented them, and be carefull to please his neighbours.

That Pastor may seeme a very Churle, and voide of all humanity, that will not shew himselfe thankefull to his Patrone which preferred him, and very troublesom, [Page 114]if he loue not quietnesse: But if he should let euery one haue his way, he should haue but a little mony in store to pay Tenths, & Subsidies, to repaire the Chauncell, and other Houses; to buy Bookes, and to re­lieue the poore. &c.

Truly it is fitte (that sith the Pa­trons Soule, as well as others, is commited to the Pastors charge,) the Pastor should do what in him lyeth, to reforme him, and the rest, in a charitable sort.

You say well, in a charitable sort: yet so, as he speake home to their conscience, least he daube (as the Prophet sayth) with vntempered morter.

Well, since the word of God is fitte Salt to season mens Souls, let me haue some that is good: First to stirre vp the Patron I come for to be more carefull to prouide a good Pastor, and then some to mooue him to deale more liberally with him, then his present greedines will suffer him.

Here is for him, if he will suffer it to come neere him. Mat. 15.14. If the blinde leade the blinde, both fall into the dytch.

Pray the Lord of the Haruest that he would sende foorth Labourers into his Haruest. [...]at. 9.38.

Where there is no vision, Pro. 19.28. the people decay. [Page 115]Where no Counsell is, the People falle: Pro▪ 11.1 [...]. But where many Councellers are, there is health.

Whosoeuer shall call vppon the name of the Lord shall be saued: Ro. 10.14. But how shall they calle on him in whom they haue not belee­ued? And how shall they beleeue in him of whome they haue not heard? And how shall they heare without a Preacher: And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Isaiah. 52.7 Ro. 10.15. as it is written.

How beautifull are the feete which bring glad tydings of peace, & bring glad tydings of good things.

Many say, that theire Preachers bring not tydings of peace to them, but troubles of conscyence.

As the Poole, into the which the Diseased were putte, did not cure before the Angell of the Lord had troubled the Water: Io. 5.4. So the conscience of him that is in errour, and out of the way, can haue no true peace before it be well shaken and sifted with the word of God: It is good rubbing on the Galle, if so be that men do heale withall: But as I wish your Paymaister more libe­call; so would I wish your Leuite to take heede he complayne not without cause, least it turne to his owne hurt.

You say well, but this Salt which [Page 116]you haue deliuered, may serue to teach men, that vnlesse their guides haue the eyes of knowledge and vnderstanding, and with the same guide them in the right way, they are like to fall into the ditches of error, heresie, superstition, idolatry, and all kinde of ini­quitie: It serueth also to teach that if wee will be reaped, and made ready for the Lords Barne, we must not thinke it suffi­cient that our Haruest-men come in theire Iackets or wastcoates, (which Workemen in Haruest commonly lay a side because they bring more heate, and sweate) but also pray that they may come, not with blunt, but with sharpe Sickels, and worke with them discreetely, and painefully: But now let me haue some Salt to season him for dea­ling so hardly with his Pastor, that he is not able to hold out, his maintenance is so small. In many places there is little payed out of Parsonages to the Colledges, in respect of vallue, nor to the Minister, in respect of his labour, and charge: What is seuen pound in pecunijs to the Minister, or sixteene pounde to the Colledge, out of seuen score?

You shall haue the best I can helpe you to.

The Labourer is worthy of his Wages: [...] 10.7. who goeth a warfare. &c.

Who feedeth a flocke, 1. Cor. 9.7. and eatheth not of the milke of the flocke?

If wee haue sowen vnto you spirituall things, is it a great thing if we reape your carnall thinges.

Doe you not knowe that they which mi­nister about the Holy thinges, eate of the thinges of the Temple. They which waighte of the Alters, (he meneth not Masse Priests, nor their Alters, but Iewish Priests, in time of the Law) are partakers with the Altar.

So also hath the Lord ordayned that they which preach the Ghospell should liue of the Ghospell: Gal. 6▪ 6. let him that is taught in the worde, make him that hath taught him, per­taker of all his goods.

Now we beseech you brethren, 1. Thes. 5.11▪ that you know them which labour among you, and are ouer you in the Lord & admonish you.

That you haue them in singuler loue, for theire worke sake, be at peace among your selues.

Will you haue any more?

I thinke this be more then our Saltmans pay-maister can wel digest, there­fore let vs try first how this will worke.

Well, let charitie rule your thoughts, hope the best, and assure your selfe, that they [Page 118]which haue more care of their foure-footed sheepe then of their owne Soules wil bring theire repenting oyle when the deores be shut. what a lamentable blindnesse is this, y ^• men when they see any of theire Sheepe in an euill taking should check, and chide their Shepheard in such sort, as they doe, saying, come on you idle Lubber, y ^• lazie Fellow, a rope on thy hyde, heere be Sheepe in a trim pickle indeede; thou commest Cloaked, and Hooded, as if thou didst watch among them day and night, armed for all stormēs and tempests, and thou carryest thy Tarre-boxe to dingle to dangle vpon thy hooke, and thy bowe of thy Sheeres peepe out of thy scrip, as though thou wouldst doe a great act; but looke vpon these Sheepe heere, dost not see what a wrigling they make, and how of [...] they lye downe, byting and gnawing where they are payned; put off your combersome Cloake, youly ther marrhant, lay handes on these poore Seepe, searrh them well, shed the wool, and where thou findest any scurse scrape it off, and cut away those durty dag­lockes with thy Sheeres, and doe not tarre them as if thou wert afrayde to hurt them, but make it to gee to the skinne, and laboure by dilligence to saue that which is ready to perrish by thy negligence. It is lamenta­ble [Page 119]I say, that a man should so take on with his Shepheard for a seely sheepe, and haue not the witte or the will to speake thus to his spirituall Pastor, if he finde him negli­gent: Sir you reape our carnall things, to the ende you should doe what in you lyeth to make vs sound Sheepe, and to bring vs to Christs fould, therefore I pray you if you can do more then reade, and be allowed to preache, stirre vp your guift, and when you haue [...]ne reading, gather some profitable notes from your text, and exhort vs to car­ry them away; apply the word to our con­sciences, spare vs not, tarre vs not slightly, search vs thorowly, though we striue and struggle, doe you your dutie; if wee crush our poore neighbours, if our liues be licenti­ous, if wee be slacke in hearing, or whatso­euer is a misse, tell vs of it priuately, and if we hold on as not regarding your counsaile, lay before vs the iudgements of God, due to such sins as you shall finde among vs, that it may may appeare, that you would not haue vs perrish, and if you sée any of vs o­uerladen with the burthen of sin, and tho­roughly greeued for the same, then take paines to ease and comfort vs with the swéete promises of the Gospell, promised to the penitent.

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Alacke, alacke, these thoughts are farre from our Salt-mans pay-maister, hee looketh straight to the neighbours for the [...]ithing of corne, milke, wooll, lambe, &c. he passeth not whether the Salt-man can or will season him, so that hee bee content to take ten in the hundred, on this condition, that he neuer looke for the principall.

It is maruaile if your Salt-man haue any good skill in seasoning that he will yéeld to so little maintenance.

Alasse friend Salter what would you haue men to do, when they haue ouer­charged their friends, and oft emptied their purses, few Patrons send vnto the Vniuer­sities, to seeke for the skilfull, and if any such seeke to the Patrones (I speake not of all but of the greater part) they must yeeld to their conditions, or else if Peter-Prea­cher will not, Rowland-Reader will, and so it is wrapt vp with omnia bene, for that men haue not eyes to see, what in the sight of God, is done, male, or else haue forgottē that it is appointed vnto men that they shall once die: Heb 9. and after that commeth iudgement: But I pray you before you goe any further giue mee leaue to aske one question.

Nay first I pray thée answere mee to one thing while it is in my head.

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What is that?

As you asked mee what I would haue Students to do, when they haue ouer­charged their freinds: so I aske you if the reuerend fathers before they admit any to take an oath of them, and require them vp­on their oath to make it knowne, whether they were presented freely or not, would you haue them runne into periury.

God forbid I should bee of that minde, hauing learned that the Lord him­selfe will be a swift witnesse as against soothsay­ers, adulterers, Mal. 3.5. such as wrongfully keepe backe the hirelings wages, vex the widdow and the fa­therlesse, oppresse the stranger, &c. so also against such, as be false swearers, therefore I hold if they haue no other meanes to liue by, better a thousand fold, goe to plough then to periure. But as he that is presented must beware of this, so others must take heed that neither for gaine nor malice they draw that into the compasse of Simony, which the Law will not suffer to be drawne so farre, and that they discourage none from being thankefull to their benefactors.

Now I haue heard your answere, let me héere your question, for I shall haue leasure to talke with you till more Chap­men come.

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You said euen now, that if a man should see his Sheepe in ill plight, he would reproue his Shepheard for his negligence, and that notwithstanding he met hm, ha­uing his cloake on his backe, his hooke in his hand, his sheares in his scrip, &c. as if he were a right skilfull Sheepeheard, yet all this would not satisfie the maister, but the Shepheard must put off his cloake, & fall to worke. But what if some skilful or paineful Shepeheards, who sildome or neuer vse to fodder & tar their Sheepe cloaked, for that they thought it would be cumbersome, and a hinderance vnto them, nor euer vsed to crosse-brand their Lambs, because they would not seeme to be of their mind which thinke that this marke hath force and ver­tue▪ to driue away the wolfe? What I say if such Shepeheards, should bee commanded by the Sheepe-reeue (whom the Lord had charged to see all things ordered) that al­waies when they come into the fold, they come in white cloakes, and that when they washed their Lambes, they would crosse­brand them, not meaning thereby to feare the Wolfe (who, if being permitted he durst set vpon the owner, by all likely-hood would not shrinke from that brand) but to shew that the owner, to recouer his Sheepe [Page 123]from the Wolfe, and other wilde beasts, Math. 4. had put himselfe in great danger, and endured greiuous things, would you haue such Shepheards, (who might not stay except they yeelded) to obey, or flye the field, and so leaue both flocke and maintenance?

Doe you know any such Sheepe­heards?

It may be I do.

If they bee so skilfull as you say, what should you aske mee beeing but a sily Salter, what is best for them to doe, they know better then I what to doe in such a case, for myne owne part if I found these things so troublesome to mee, that by no meanes I could frame my selfe to yéeld, and that the Shéepe-reeue would not be intrea­ted to beare with me (though I brought all the reasons that are against them) I would resolue with my selfe to depart quietly and commend my Flocke to him to whom one y ^e is now a Saint in heauen commended the Shepheards of Ephesus, Act. 20.32. but if I felt them not so cumbersome, as belike some haue done, who as I haue heard, after they had yéelded to the cloake, and the rest yéelded vp the Ghost, I would choose rather to stay & fodder my Flocke cloaked, then for a matter not so heauy to me, to leaue both them & the [Page 124]maintenance which God had prouided for me and mine.

But they will say▪ the same God which prouided for thē before, can prouide for them after.

True, but for my part if I may in­ioy the old prouision with any quietnesse, I thinke not good to seeke for a new, but sith those Shepeheards which cannot frame themselues to yéeld, haue bene so diligent in their calling as you say, some man pe [...] ­haps would meruaile why authority should be so loath to tollerate them.

This noble Sheepe-reeue, hauing herevnder the owner of the Sheepe the cheifest stroake, and being appointed high Steward of the whole houshold, thinketh it more reason the Shepeheard should yeeld to him, then hee to them, in that which he is perswaded to be most conuenient, for that not they, but he, with the aduise of the wise, &c, hath authority to order the whole as hee shall thinke good, hauing al­waies an eye to the will of the chiefe Lord. Now as the rest of the officers are knowne by their apparel, so he would haue the Shep­heards discerned from others, by the gar­ments appointed for them also, onely as an outward marke, otherwise he knoweth wel [Page 125]that the cheifest note of a good Shepheard is his diligence in feeding.

So it is for the owner of the Shéep to teach all Shepeheards what is their chei­fest duty, said not to one of the cheife Shep­heards, if thou louest me, were such a cloalt but feede my Shéepe: but as you said the white cloake was appointed for an external note, so I say there may bee other causes why this noble and wise Shéepe-reeue doth s [...] straightly require the same and the like, as to try mens obediēce, to draw those y ^e be deuided to more vnity, which if we do em­brace (as an ancient Shepheard saith) tene­mus charitatem, Aug. con. lit. potil l. 2. cap. 77. we hold fast charity, so that if vnity & vniformity bee herein respected, wee may not thinke it is done to try mens constancie, as did the Emperour Constan­tinus father of Constantine, who on a time fayned that hee would put out all the Chri­stians which would abide in their Religion, from their honours and offices: but they which are in very déed, godly of their owne free-will, gaue ouer their dignities, choosing rather to giue place to dignities, then to de­part from Christ: but it turned to good vnto them, for the Emperor imbraced them, and those which denyed Christ, to keepe their dignities, hee vtterly remoued them [Page 126]from himselfe, saying: that they would not bee faithfull vnto him, which had broken their faith vnto God.

Our Sheep-reeue fayneth no such matter in requiring these things, but doth indeed seeke vniformity.

He doth it not then as one supersti­tiously addicted vnto them, or putting any holinesse in them?

No freind Salt-man he is counted, of all them that know him, so farre to hate superstitious vanities, that if he should see any to make more accoumpt of shadowes, then of matters of substance, he would ei­ther take away the abuse, or deale with thē as that noble Sheepe-reeue Ezekiah did with the brazen Serpent.

He brake it in péeces when hee saw men burne incense vnto it.

True, and he is said to haue done vprightly in the sight of the Lord, so that after him was none like him among all the Kings of Iuda, neither were any such be­fore him.

You say right, and this sanctified commendation moued a learned Shepe­heard, [...]il [...] con [...]es. [...]a▪ pa [...] 365. yet liuing in this land, to say, a figure of Christ erected by Gods owne comman­dement: and seruing to put all Israels po­sterity [Page 127]in minde of the wonders, which their fathers saw in the wildernesse, when it was abused, defaced, and the fact allowed by Gods owne mouth.

And herein hee agréeth with another fa­mous Shepeheard, more ancient then hee, by more then twelue hundred yeares, who speaking of the same Serpent amongst other miracles saith: Aug. de [...]iu [...]e. Dei. l. 10. [...].8. Quem sane serpentem propter facti memoriam reseruatum, cum [...]upulus postea errans tanquam idolum co­lere caepisset, Ezekias Rex, religiosa potesta­te Deo seruiens, cum magna pietatis laude contriuit: which Serpent surely being re­serued for a remembrance of that which was done, when afterward the people er­ring beganne to worship it as an idoll, King Ezekiah seruing God with a religious po­wer brake it in peeces, with great commen­dation of piety. But sith you haue put mée in minde of some spéeches of that learned Shepeheard which yet liueth in the land: giue me leaue to call to minde what y ^e same man in the same booke vnder the name of Theophilus, saith to Philander, touching such as would subdue mens consciences to that which was flat against the expresse word of the eternall God, we must not re­bell, saith hee, and take armes against the [Page 128]Prince, as you affirme wee may, but with reuerence and humility serue God before the Prince, and that is nothing against our oath.

And againe hee saith: if you can excuse vs before God, when you mis-leade vs, we will serue him as you shall appoint; other­wise if euery man shal answere for himselfe, good reason he be maister of his owne con­science, in that which toucheth him so néere, and no man shall excuse him for; and a little after hee hath these words: The poorest wretch may bee supreme gouernour of his owne heart. Princes rule the publique and externall actions of their Countries, but not the consciences of men.

But the words of that reuerend & learned Pastor are not so be taken as if hee thought it not lawfull for Christian Princes by lawes to vrge such as haue beene mis-led in superstition and Idolatrie to be hearers of Gods word, which ought to guide our con­sciences, and by which they may bee better instructed, & brought to a more sound and pure worshipping, &c.

No, he is rather to bee thought in this case to agrée with another learned pa­stor, Meet Mo [...]y [...] 1. who speaking of such men, saith: Whē they are well instructed and taught, the [Page 129]Magistrats must compel them to sound and pure worshippings which are prescribed in holy Scriptures, for y ^e Magistrate may not suffer his Citizens to liue without exercises of godlinesse, for the end of ciuill rule is, that the Citizens should liue both vertu­ously and happely: and who séeth not but that godlinesse, and the worshipping of God is the cheife of all vertues. But peraduen­ture some will say, if a Prince should com­pel those to the right vse of the Sacraments which are not perswaded of the truth, he should driue them head-long into sinne, so farre is it off from setting forward their sal­uation, wherefore I thinke it good to make a distinction betweene that which is off, or by it selfe, and that which is at aduenture & by hap, or as they are wont to speake in schooles, that which commeth per accident, that is by chance: the Magistrate in this thing which we haue now in hand, setteth forth to his subiects that thing which is of it selfe right, good, and iust: but that sinne thereby commeth that happeneth nothing at all by his default, but rather by those mens incredulity or mis-beléefe, whereof hée is not to be accused: when as hee hath dili­gently laboured to haue his Citizens well instructed, neither the Papists which at this [Page 130]day are suffered of Christian Magistrates are ignorant that wee ought to haue in vse the Sacraments instituted by the Lord: wherefore they cannot iustly complaine of their Magistrates, if they will haue them vprightly and in due honour ministred vn­to them: moreouer they which obiect these things vnto vs must diligently marke this, that by the same way we may cauill against God, for hee hath set forth vnto men his law, which is most perfect, to be kept of them: shall we say vnto him? we are weake and of a corrupt and vitious nature, nei­ther can we performe thy commandements as thou cōmandest, whether we do against that which thou hast commanded, or whe­ther we endeauour our selues to performe, that which thou hast bidden, we shall euer sinne because we shall faint, neither can we obey as wee should do, wherefore whatsoe­uer wee dee wee shal not auoide sinne: If a­any br [...]lingly should speake these things against God, might not he by good right an­swere: they be iust and right which I haue set forth vnto you to her obserued, but in that you are séeble and we [...]ke, it ought not to by counted a fault in mee, for I haue ex­cellently holp [...] your weakenesse, which for your sakes haue giuen my Sonne vnto the [Page 131]death, if you shall beléeue onely in him, whatsoeuer you shall not accomplish in per­forming my precepts, it shall not bee impu­ted to you to euerlasting death. So also may a good Prince answere, I require of you those things which are written in the word of God, and which are decent and [...] edifie, wherefore if your opinion or consci­ence be against it, that is not to bee ascribed vnto me, which haue diligently laboured that you might not be ignorant of the truth and miserably perish, for I haue diligently séene vnto that you should be taught and in­structed in the truth, and so will I still goe forward in exhorting, admonishing and commanding you, but reade you the holy Scriptures, heare your teachers, and pray vnto God to open the eyes of your mindes: these things if the Prince shall say vnto those men which do so cauill against him, I do not sée by what right or by what meanes he can be reprehended.

But it returne to the Shepeheards that refuse or at least bee loath to vse the white cloake, (which hath another name vsurped by car-men and carters, when they put on their sauecoates) I pray thée tel me are they married.

Yes, neither is it to bee thought [Page 132](marriage beeing honourable among all men, and the forbidding of it a point of di­uelish doctrine) that the Shepeheard doth mislike that, onely he would haue them to make choyce of such as be modest, and ver­tuous, without greedy scraping, or taking any mans house ouer his head, or bestowing more vpon them then is decent and necessa­ry, that by their good carrying they may do what in them lyeth to stop the mouthes of such as swell against them, as misliking their marriages more then any other. Not any families of Beare-wards, Tinkers, Ped­lers and Hog-heards, so trouble the com­mon-wealth, belike as the children of these married Shepheards, some as it should ap­peare by their bookes haue studied Arith­meticke to learne to multiply, and by mul­tiplying to set downe how many thousands of such mens children might bee borne since the beginning of Queene Elizabeth raigne, they are affraid belike that the pro­fessors of the Gospel should become migh­tier then they: Though some grudge at increase: [...] S [...]lomon [...]aith: In the [...]de of [...] [...]ple is [...] ho [...]r of a King. Prou. 1.1.28. I hope they be not so cruell as in their hearts to wish that our midwiues would do with them as they did in Egypt with the males of the Hebrewes.

Surely I thinke that if in y ^e house of any of our Shepheards, some maid y ^e liue [Page 133]vnmaried should proue with child, these multipliers would say it was the maisters deed: If there Shepheards in times past had no more children of their own thē they had wiues of their owne, it is well for them, I iudge them net, I remember an old fel­low came diuers times to my doore, with these spéeches: I was borne in this towne, id est Rector, and the Shepheard had mée call him vncle, but the townes-folke said hée was my fa­ther,

Yea, but such fellowes come not within the multiplyers account, but I pray you tell mee why did you aske whether the Shepheards we talked of before were mar­ried.

You shall heare: what if the lawes were such, that whosoeuer would not féede his Shéepe and farre them in the attire of Turkish Shepeheards, should be diuorced, ought any whom God hath coupled toge­ther to be separated, rather then this should bée yéelded vnto?

I thinke no, for whatsoeuer the at­tire were, there dealings otherwise would sufficiently declare that they were no Turks nor worshippers of Mahomet.

Well then do you not thinke that when men that feare God hauing will & skil [Page 134]do take paines with their flocke-feeding, both Sheepe and Lambs, do you not thinke I say, that such men louing their flocke, and the Flocke hearing their voyce, are coupled to their Flockes by the Lord himselfe?

Yes.

Why then should not they choose to weare their white garments (though Turkish Shepheards should weare, or the Shepheards of the Idoll His in Egypt had worne it) rather then for this and such like matters, be as it were diuorced from their Flockes, May not we vse myrrhe, aloes, & cinamon, E [...]on. 7.17. because the woorish woman per­sumeth her head therewith.

Shee abused those things and the ornaments named in the 16. vers. to serue sin in the chamber not in the Church.

May not wee sweeten the Church with frank ensence and vse such things as our go­uernors call decent, because these things were abused to superstition do you thinke that any of those Shepeheards which vse these cloakes heere, make such accoumpt of them as the Shepeheards in Italy made of their apparell, touching whom a skilfull Shepeheard writeth thus.

[...] in prepa­ration the Mass. ca. 4.Where good is hourers are wont to cast of their clothes, when they goe about [Page 135]their worke: the B. and Preists doe cleane contrary, putting garment vpon gar­ment, when as they goe to worke: and a little after he saith, that the Aube vpon the gownes, is, as they interprete it, in stéed of a shirt of male, and therwith representeth the gowne which Herod gaue to Iesus Christ in a mockery, y ^e girdle signifieth a bow, and y ^e scourge wherewith they scourged Christ, and the little cord wherewith the stole is ty­ed to his girdle signifieth his quiuer, y ^e stole, that is to say the breast-plate, which goeth about the necke, and is crossed ouer the belly like a S. Andrews crosse, &c. serueth for a launce to shake against the enemy, and al­so in stéed of y ^e cord wherewith Iesus Christ was bound when they scourged him, the maniple is his mace, &c. the chisible is his bucklea, &c.

To my remembrance I haue heard a Preacher say, that one Doctor Durand, hath some significations too.

Yes, he saith Amictus est pro galea, In ration. li. [...]. cap. 3. See defence of Ap. p. 39 [...]. &c. his amice is his head-péece, his Albe is his coate of male, his girdle is his bow, his subsingle is his quiuer, his stole is his spear, his maniple is his club, his chisible is his Larget, and in the end he saith. Haec sunt arma quibus pontifex, vel sacerdos armari [Page 136]debet contra spirituales nequitias pugnatu­rus. These be the peeces wherewith the B. or Priest must he harnised, that will fight against the spirituall wickednesse.

Haue you read any speeches of any of the Popes touching appparell?

Some write that Pope Caelesti­nus the first saith, Discernendi sumus a ple­be doctrina, Cae [...]e, 1. in Epi. ad Epis [...] Gal­li [...]. cap. 1. [...]i­ [...]ed in defen. Apo. p. 401. non veste: conuersatione, non habitu: mentis puritate non cultu: Si enim studere cuperemus nouitate traditum nobis a patribus ordinem calcabimus, vt locum vacuum superstitionibus faciamus, docen­di potius sunt rudium animi quam illuden­di, nec imponendum est illorū occulis sed mentibus infundenda praecepta sunt: We must be knowne from the lay people by our doctrine, not by our coate: by our conuersa­tion not by our apparell: by the purenesse of our minde, not by the attire of our body: for if we once beginne to deuise nouelties, wè shal tread our fathers orders vnder foot, and make roome for superstition, the minds of the ignorant ought to be taught and not to be mocked, neither may we go about to dazell their eys, but rather ought to poure wholesome doctrine into their hearts.

I take this to be his meaning, that if one came in a Shepheards weed, and do [Page 137]not feede he doth nothing but mock them with shewes, and not that he would haue a Bishop go like a butcher, or a Minister like a milner.

You may be sure he had no such mea­ning deither do I think that the Ministers of the Church of Bethelem, were so vndi­screet: though Saint Ierome describing the orders of that Church saith, Hieroni. ad Marcell. In veste nulla discretio, vtcunque placuerit incedere nec detractionis est nec laudis: In apparell there is no difference, there is no wondring, how­souer a man list to go, it is neither slandred nor praised.

But our Shepheards may not go as they list, In Q. M. time but according to the orders set downe, and they say they are the more vn­willing to yeeld, for that some wolues which did deuoure not onely many poore Sheepe, but also some worthy Shepheards in this land, did vse some apparell sutable to this that is appointed to be worne.

Vnlesse I be deceiued some of those Shepheards that were burnt to ashes did weare the same.

If they did I thinke it was more for the peace of the Church then for any fancy they had to it, otherwise they might haue deuised decent apparell differing from that [Page 138]of their enemies, the knew wel if Saul had Ioued Steuen hee would neuer haue kept the cloathes of him that stoned him.

Saul kept the persecutors cloathes as one consenting to his death: and he did it willingly, and as one that hated Steuens do­ctrine, but these reuerend fathers, whose loue to the Gospel and suffering for y ^e same, is worthy to be remembred, while the Sun and Moone keèpe their course (though some whose filthy idolatry cannot be but hated of the iealous God, do cal them stinking Mat­tyrs) these godly and true zealous men I say, did not consent but lament for the blou­dy butchering of all that trusted to be saued by the mercy of God towards them through the merits of Iesus Christ our onely redée­mer: so y ^e howsoeuer some of them thought good not onely to kéepe them, but also to were such things for a time, yet it is well knowne they did as much detest their ad­uersaries cruelty, as Saul conuerted was sorry for his persecuting: as those graue, wise, and godly men, thought good to beare with the weakenesse of men then, hoping that in time they would become perhaps stronger, though things fell not out to their expectations, so now it may bee those that are in authority thinke that the wearing of [Page 139] [...]his coate, would bee a politique kind of [...]hewing-horne (if I may so call it without [...]ffence) to draw such as are backewards to [...]ng another note: so that the Shepeheards [...]ou speake of, if they may with any quiet­ [...]esse of conscience, shall do well, as I think [...]eing now vrged, to obey, least they séeme [...]o such as be in authority rather opiniatiue, [...]hen zealous.

It may be these Shepeheards are [...]erswaded that it is no more expedient for [...] professor of the Gospell to weare these [...]hings, Tertul. de Co­ron. millitis. then in Tertullians iudgment (as I [...]aue heard) for a Christian to goe as the [...]leathen did with a laurell garland vpon their head.

It was méete that the Christians should abstaine from that, Beatus Rhena­nus in argu­ [...] in libro Tertul. de Cō ron. iml. as Beatus Rhena­nus saith, for these causes; Partem ne infir­ [...]nior ex Christianis offenderetur, partim [...]e echunici in suis erroribus cōfirmarenter, dum rectius putant esse quod etiam Chri­stianos obseruare vident: partly least any of the weaker Christians should bee offended, partly least the Heathen also should bée in­couraged in their errours thinking y ^t thing, for that the Christians themselues do it to be y ^e better, but if you haue any more to say touching these Shepeheards, speake quick­ly [Page 140]for I would faine make an end of this matter.

What if some of their Sheepe should iudge according to the outward ap­peerance, and say if our Shepeheards yeeld to any thing which heeretofore they haue misliked, we will come to the fold with the inside of our cloakes outwards, doe you thinke it would not grieue our Shepeheards to heare this?

If they haue fed their Shéepe with sound fodder heretofore, let them do so still, let them in that point vse the same whistle; and the same note, and the wiser sort (things béeing as they bée) will think neuer y ^t worse of thē. Hungry Shéepe y ^t bée not wanton, will hearken to the note, & not stand staring on the coate, they séed vpon fodder & not vp­on colour, vpon substance and not vpon shewes.

But it may be if they should yeeld to this, they should be vrged further.

And it may bée if they could or would yéeld so farre, they might find such fauour: being skilfull and painefull Shepheards, y ^t they should be vrged no further: Howsoe­uer it be, God grant for Christ his sake, that both commanders, and such as be comman­ded may do his will: But now I sée more [Page 141]Chapmen therefore tell mée quickly what [...]isease he hath whom you called a mā of my [...]oate, for our digressing to others, hath [...]ade vs almost forgetfull of him, for whom you came.

It may bee ere I come home to that man, I may meete with some of those Shep­heards wee haue talked of, therefore if you haue any Salt to season them, let mee [...]aue some.

I know there is not any Canoni­ [...]all Salt that sauoreth of obedience, but they haue it already, and know how to vse [...]t.

Haue you no other Salt here?

If Canonicall Salt will not serue, what do you aske for other, I haue but a [...]ittle other Salt heere, and touching these matters, I remember I haue some in a Lattine boxe, made by one, whose labours in searching for the truth, all that loue the truth are to praise God.

I pray let mee haue that box, and if it bee too heard for mee to open, I will get some that haue skill to help me.

I know by some of your former speeches, that you can make a shift to open a harder Lattine box then this.

Well let me see it.

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Si non licet obtinere quod cupimus, fe [...]ramus illos defectus non approbemus, modo [...] subsit illic impietas, aliudue dei verbo repug­nans, vt si quod, Cal. in qua­dam Epistola. verbi gratia, idolatriae specime [...] existeret illi ad mortem vsque resisti a nobi [...] oporteret, vbi verò Doctrina ipsa sana at que pu­ra est ac ceremoniae ad ciuilem quandam ho­nestatem vel decorum vsurpantur, silentio nobi [...] praetereunda sunt ista magis quam vt corum oc­casione ad disceptationes et grauiores motus ve­niendum sit.

Will you giue me leaue to open it heere before I goe hence?

Yes.

If we may not obtaine that which we desire. let vs beare those defects, not ap­prooue them, see that no impietie be there vnder, or any other thinge repugnant to the word of God, as if for examples sake there­should be any kinde of Idolatrie, we ought to resist it, euen to the death; But where the Doctrine it selfe is sound and pure, and the ceremonies vsed for some ciuill ho­nestie, and decencie; these thinges are ra­ther to be passed ouer of vs with silence, then that for their cause we should come to wrangling, and more grieuous broyles: now if you haue any more Boxes of this kind, I pray you let me haue one more.

[Page 143]

Itaque primum respondemus, The. Beza Epist, 12. &c. quum non sint ex earum rerum genere quae per se impiae sunt, non uideri nobis tanti momenti, vt propteria Pastoribus descerendum sit potius Ministerium, quam vt vestes illas assumant vel gregibus omit­tendum publicum pabulum potius quam it a vestitos Pastores audiant. Open it now?

Therefore first we answere, &c Sithe these things be not of that sort which are of themselues impious, they seeme not to vs to be of so great moment, that for them, eyther the Pastors should choose to forsake their Ministery, rather then take to themselues those garments, or that the flock should omit the publicke fodder, rather then heare the Pastors so cloathed: I thinke some had rather yeeld to such cloathing then to crossing, because there be some that do worship that signe, and say they will doe so still, but that I came for an other, & haue troubled you so long, I would faine haue some Salt for such.

The second Commandement for­biddeth such kinde of bowing, and worship­ping, for that is to make an Idole of an I­mage, and if we may not make an Idole of an Image, why should we make an Idole of the Crosse?

Some say, Loue me, and loue my [Page 144]Hounde.

True, but the Hound is louing to his Maister, and doth him no hurt, but ra­ther in hunting helpeth to recreate him af­ter he hath wearyed himselfe aboute such matters as his calling hath tyed him to: But the Hammer, Nailes, and Crosse, were no louing Hounds to Christ, vnlesse they be louing that hunt one to death.

Though Christ felt great paine there, and thereon ended his life, yet we haue a great benefite thereby.

True but tell me this; If a man by treason hath deserued death, and a friende of his (whome the Kings Maiesty fauou­reth) intreateth or pardon; and the King graunteth the Rebell his life on this condi­tion, that he which sued for his pardon would loose his right hande; would you haue the Rebell or Traytor to kisse, and to thanke the Axe, and him that chopt with it, or his Friende that felt the paine, and lost his hande?

Me thinkes a man should haue lit­tle list to kisse the Axe, or the Chopper; but rather with all thankefulnesse imbrace such a deere Friend; vnlesse such a Friende would haue such a man to esteeme such an Axe more then an other.

[Page 145]

Let our blessed Sauiour then (which gaue his life for vs) haue the ho­noure; let neyther the Nailes wherewith (nor the Crosse wherevnto) he was fastned; nor Iudas that betrayed him; nor he that en­tred into that Traytor; nor they that saide, crucifie him, robbe this our Redemer of any part of his honour and glory: And note this, that as the signe of the Crosse was much in vse, and much regarded amongst the auneient Christians: whereby they de­clared that they were not ashamed of that crucified Christ, whome the Heathen scor­ned: So sometimes they giue the name of the Crosse to the sufferings of Christ, and sometimes the name of blood to the Crosse: For when Augustine vpon Iohn sayeth: Last of all, he chose a kinde of death, Aug. in. [...].8. tract. 43. that is (sayth he) to hange on the Crosse; and [...]ould fasten the crosse in theire hearts, that the Christian might say, God forbid that I should reioyce but in the Crosse of our Lord Iesus▪ Christ. &c. It is not to be thought, that by fastning the Crosse in the heart, and by reioysing in the same is ment the wodden Crosse it selfe, whereon our Sauiour Christ was fastned, but rather that which he suffered thereon: Againe when he sayth: Aug in [...] 12. tract. 50. Sanguine occisi pecoris Iudeo­rum [Page 146]postes signati sunt, sanguine Christi frontes nostrae fignantur. The postes of the Iewes were signed with the bloud of y ^e same lambe, our foreheads are signed with the bloud of Christ: Doth he not there call the signe of the Crosse Christ his bloud: yes no doubt, for they signed themselues with that signe, and not with his bloud: but because his pre­cious bloud was shed on the crosse, therefore he giueth it the name of his bloud, as the sa­cramentall wine representing his bloud, is called bloud in the Supper.

It should seeme then that in Saint Augustines time the Christians did vse that signe: but were they all good Catholickes, or sound Christians which so signed their foreheads?

Saint Augustine saith no: for some there were whom hee calleth Agitatores, which signifieth driuers, vexers, or trouble­some fellowes, which saith he, facile habent in fronte signum Christi, & corde non recipiūt ver­bum Christi, haue easily the signe of Christ in their forehead, and receiue not the word of Christ in their heart: Aug 10.12. tract. 50. But how doe you know that some doe worship the Crosse?

Besides those that haue written in defēce of it, whose doings are in print: there came of late into my hands, a wild welcome [Page 147]home set downe in Meeter, by some that are to willfull, as it should seeme, in this Crosse­worship, regarding that more, it is to be fea­red, then the booke of God, wherein the true worship of God is taught and the suf­feringes of Christ our Sauiour at large sette foorth.

I pray you let me see it.

Heere it is.

Haue you framed any answere to this wel come home?

Yes, but not as one that cannot a­way with that signe, but as misliking such as make an Idoll of it.

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I pray you let meee see it.

If you will giue it the reading heere it is.

To this your prayer I say Amen, and so I bid you farewell.

The seauenth Chapman.

FRiend Salter tell mee quickly whether you haue any Salt to season an Vsurer.

An Vsurer, what kind of Vsurer?

Why do you aske that question? is not all kind of Vsury vnlawfull?

All men be not of one minde in this matter, some mislike it altogether, some do not so, and the Lord allowed that to be ta­ken of strangers, which he forbad to be ta­ken of brethren. Deut. 23.19.20. The A­postle saith: Loue hurteth not, Rom. 13.10. or doth not euill to his neighbour: By which words some gather, that if a man so lend, that his neighbour, notwithstanding the paying of Interest, hath good and not hurt by that borrowing, it is not vnlawfull. You know there be some widdowes that haue many childrē left with portions, & there are many weake and sickly, and neither of these can well follow any trade of buying or selling, or if they may haue others to do it for them, yet hearing that many haue bene deceiued, they dare not commit their mony into their [Page 156]hands. If such as these lend some hundred pound or whatsoener to any trades-man, to any that hath a ground to store▪ to any that is to purchase or take a lease, &c. and they y ^e receiued it, do sinde that it hath done them a great pleasure▪ and be willing to pay the I [...]erest admitted, do you thinke it a sinne to take it.

It is no matter what I thinke, or you think, what saith the Lord in his word, doth hee allow to lead vpon Vsury, to [...] poore man, or keepe his pawne if he cannot keepe touch?

No indéed, we should lend to such, yea giue to such of charity, and as pittying their necessity, for no doubt our Sauiour chiefly respacteth such▪ Math 5.42. when he saith, Giue to him that asketh, and from him that would borrow of thee, turne not away And the Lord by Moses said: Thou shalt not har­den thine heart, De [...]. 15.7. nor shut thine hand from thy poore brother.

And touching Vsury (vnder correction be it spoken) there is a place in Exodus, which may well serue to make knowne what Vsu­ry is forbidden in other places of holy Scripture, and this is it.

If thou lend money to my people, [...] 22.25. to the poore with thee, thou shalt not be as an V­surer [Page 157]vnto him, you shall not oppresse him [...]ith Vsury, Where we sée that to take V­ [...]ry of a poore man, is a crushing & an op­ [...]ressing of him: And touching the keeping [...] his pledge, Leuit. 35.25.36.37. Deui. 23.19.20. we reade thus Exod. 22.26. [...]f thou take thy neighbours rayment to [...]ledge, thou shalt restore it vnto him be­ [...]re the Sunne go downe, for that is his co­ [...]ering onely, and this is his garment for his [...]kinne, wherein shall hee sleepe? therefore [...]he he cryeth vnto me, I wil heare him, for [...]am mercifull, Luk. 6.36. And therefore our Sauiour [...]aith: Be you mercifull as your Father also [...] mercifull.

The eighth Chapman.

S [...]r if you stand so long in seruing euery one of vs, as you haue done with that fift chapman, it will be night ere we be all ser­ [...]ed you came so late to market.

Time enough my good brother, vn­ [...]sse this Salt which I bring bee better re­ [...]arded, then a great deale of that which [...]as vttered by other manner of Salt-men [...]en I am, or euer shal be, in y ^e dayes of our [Page 158]most gracious Quéene Elizabeth, in whose times we enioyed many great blessings, ne­uer to be forgotten.

Yet there were some that thought some-thing amisse, in those dayes, & sought for a reformation, I remember well, that once I saw in a certaine book the names of some that met to conferre about such mat­ters.

A certaine Minister that feareth God, and hath good report of all y ^e know him, thought good when hee came to be deposed, not onely to shew the cause of such méetings, but also to name those whom hee saw at any conference, vnto which diuers were requested to come, and asked whether they would put their hands to certaine sup­plications: so that though in that booke you saw diuers named, yet not all there blamed, as authors of any sect, or maintainers of any dangerous position, neither were all y ^t are named by that Minister present at all conferences in y ^e Dioces wherein he dwel­leth, some of thē which were thought to be y ^e authors of such méetings, lye now in their graues: If the discipline they sought and their manner of séeking for it, did please God, it is y ^e better for them, if not, they haue y ^e more to answere for; As touching my self, [Page 159]I thinke good, hauing cause, to say thus much before I be laid in my coffin, (which being vnder my writing table, I touched with my knees when I wrot this) that I alwaies vsed that booke of common-pray­er which was set forth by authority, I al­waies loued the peace of the Church, pray­ed for an vnity in the verity, hated brawling and iarres, alwaies feared to giue any iust occasion of offence, to any, especially such as were then, or be now in authority for whō, as also for the amending of whatsoeuer the Lord seeth to be amisse in any of vs, name­ly in my selfe, and those that be committed to my charge, by Gods helpe I will pray heartily, as I haue done, and so prepare my selfe to go to him which dyed for me, euen to the place of true rest, where through him I shall be frée from errour, sinne, and sorrow, which will not be in this world.

I am of your minde for that, but now I pray you, serue me of that I come for quickly, that I may be gone, for a stranger is come to our town, who mindeth by God his grace to speake soone, and I purpose to heare him.

To speake where?

In the Pulpit.

Why do you not say Preach?

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It was out ere I was aware, I haue bene oft quipt for it, and yet I forget my selfe, but sith you moued this questiō, I pray you, if I shall not trouble you, tell me whe­ther you thinke it a sinne, to vse the word speaking for preaching?

I do not thinke that any account it a sinne, no more then to call Sunday the Lords day, though they like y ^e vsuall words, for the word speake is often found in the Acts of the Apostles, for setting foorth the word of God, 4. Acts, and as they (meaning Peter and Iohn spake vnto the people, &c.)

Now what they spake we shall see if wée reade the third of the Acts from the 12. ver. to the end of the Chapter, where is set downe the summe of that Sermon or spéech which Peter made to the men of Israell, [...] which were astonied at the curing of the cripple; which Spéech being called speaking in the first verse of that fourth Chapter, is called Teaching and Preaching in y ^e second verse: Thus taking it grieuously (meaning they Priests) that they taught the people and Preached in Iesus the resurrection, &c. in the 17. verse of Act. 4, Let vs threaten & charge them (Lalein) to speake henceforth to no man in this name, And in the 20 verse Peter and Iohn saith: We cannot (me Lalein) [Page 161]but speake the things which wee haue seene a and heard: Lalounto [...]. Act. 10.44 And Acts 5. the Angell saith: Go your way, and standing speake in the Temple, all the words of this life, meaning they should set forth that doctrine whereby the way to true life is declared, while Peter yet spake, the holy-Ghost fell on all them that heard the word, And Acts the thirtéenth and the fourtie two, The Gentiles be­sought that the next Sabboth that they would Lalethenai, speake, which some inter­pret preach, &c. And Act. 14.1. and so Lale­sai speake, that a great multitude both of the Iewes and Grecians, beléeued: Act. 18.9. Then said the Lord vnto Paul, &c. feare not but speake, &c. now what the Lord ment by bid­ding him speake appeareth in the 11. verse of that 18. of the Acts: so hee continued there, (meaning at Corinth) a yeare and sixe moneths, and taught the word of God among them: But least the stranger you speake of be gone out of the place ere you come there, tell me quickly what you would haue?

My comming hither is for some such Salt as is fit to season some that seeme [...]ery deuout, and religious outwardly, and yet are reported to be hard-hearted, and full of fraud, pinching both Teacher, and Te­nant, [Page 162]little regarding the teares of the fa­therlesse and widdow, nor to walke in the steps of their fathers, who kept good hou­ses, and brought vp many children, without such grinding of leane faces, that would be glad to liue vnder them, if they might with any reason.

God forbid all reports should hee true▪ euill-will neuer said well: but howso­euer it be, friend Chapman, know this for certaine, that a man may seeme to be sound in profession outwardly, and yet bee hal­low and rottten inwardly: to professe to be one of Christs Sheepe, and that whoso­euer will be saued most repent, and beleeue the Gospell, and bring forth y ^e fruits of re­pentance, is a sound profession in word, but hee that professeth not this by deedes, but biteth & gripeth by vsury, to mens vndoing, pincheth with hard payments, ouerloa­deth poore men with heauy burthens, kee­peth no measure in his inclosing, maketh no conscience of swearing, periury, prophaning the Saboth, lying, stealing, stabbing, whoo­ring, and such like, he is in Gods sight, a ve­ry hypocrite, and a helhound, till he amend, howsoeuer in meane time hee beguile those which lend their eares to his talking, and haue no eye to espye his walking: but to bée [Page 163]short, if there be any such hollow hearted­man with you, I feare me if you be his te­nant, you dare not carry any such Salt to him as is fit for him.

The truth is I am a free-holder, and therefore may with lesse danger do it, then a Tenant,

You say true, but yet, to the end you may carry it in good sort, you shall first haue a little Salt to season your selfe, and that is,

Let all your things be done in loue.

Now for those you speake of, heere is for them, I pray God they may take it in good part, and that it may do them good.

Heare the word of the Lord, Isai. 1, 11. ô Princes of Sodom.

Stay, stay.

Why so?

Because I made you no promise to [...]arry Salt to Princes.

No matter, for that, if the men you come for, haue any vnderstanding, they will reason thus with themselues, if the highest Maiesty spare not to reproue the mighti­ones, when they deserue it, why should wée, that be inferiour to them thinke to escape, if we be as faulty in our places as they in theirs? but if you had not stayed me, you [Page 164]should haue heard the Lord rebuking the inseriours aswell as the superiours, in these words.

Hearken to the law of our God, [...] ô peo­ple of Gomorah: Now these both high and low, were indeed by profession and by coue­nant, Gods owne peculiar people, for in the first verse I [...]ade, that the vision of Esai did concerne Iudah, and Ierusalem, and in the third verse the Lord calleth them whom hée reproueth Israell and his people, and in the righth verse the daughter of Zyon, so that in respect of the couenant, which God made with their fathers, they were and in regard of their outward worship they would séeme to bee Princes, and people of Iudah and Ierusalem, but in regard of their had fruits, the Lord calleth them Princes of Sodom and Gomorah, giuing them by those terri­ble [...] to vnderstand, that if hee should deale with their according to their deserts, they should be destroyed with as feareful a fire as were they of Sodom and Gomorah, where Lot himselfe (whose righteous soule is said to haue beene vexed amongst them) by reason of his prolonging, had bene like, with his wife and two daughters, to haue [...]r [...]shed in the punishment of those Citties h [...] not the Lord bene mercifull vnto him. [Page 165]For the most high and holy one, did so abhor the sinnes of those places, that Lots wife looking backe was turned into a pillar of Salt, to the end saith Saint Austin, De cant, no [...]o cap 4. that by her example, shee might season fooles: this our Sauiour would not haue forgotten, and therefore said: Remember Lots wife. Luk. 17.32.

For indéed the remembrance of that Slat-stone, if there be any grace in vs, might serue very wel to season our soules in such sort, that it should stirre vs vp dayly to pray, and that heartily, that when tempta­tions come it would please his goodnesse so to asist vs, and lead vs forward in his waies that wee neuer returne with the dogge to the loathsome vomit, or with the swine to wallowing in the most filthy and stinking mire, but that through his grace, endeuou­ring to serue his Diuine Maiesty in holi­nesse and righteousnesse all the dayes of our life we may be counted fit Temples for the Holy Ghost to be resident in, vntill wée (be­ing set free from all tentations, and deliue­red from all our troubles) may quietly and [...]e [...]refully possesse the inheritance which our blessed Sauiour, with the shedding of his most precious bloud, hath purchased for all them, that repent, and through a liuely saith, bring forth fruites of true repentance, [Page 166]cleaue stedfastly to him vnto the end.

Freind Salt-man you forget your selfe.

Why my good Chapman?

I came not to heare you Preach, but to haue some Canonical Salt, fit for the men you wot of.

If you had not interrupted mee, you had beene gone ere this, take now the rest of the Salt, & say nothing till you haue sufficient.

What haue I to do with the multitude of your sacrifices, [...]. saith the Lord, I am full of the burnt-offerings of Rar [...]s, and of the fat of fed beasts, and I desire not the bloud of Bullocks, nor of Lambs, nor of Goates.

12 When you come to appeare before mee, who required this of your hands to tread in my Courts.

13 Bring no more oblations in vaine, Incense is an abhomination vnto me, I cannot suffer your new Moones, nor Sabboths, nor so­lemne dayes, it is iniquity: nor solemne As­semblies.

14 My soule hateth your new Moones, and your appointed Feasts, they are a burthen to me, I am weary to beare them.

[...] And when you shall stretch out your hand, I will hide myne eyes from you, and [Page 167]though you make many prayers, I will not heare, for your hands are full of bloud.

16 Wash you, make you cleane, take away the euill of your workes from before mine eyes, cease to do euill,

17 Learne to do well, speake iudgement, relieue the oppressed, iudge the fatherlesse, and defend the widdow.

18 Come now and let vs reason together, saith the Lord, though your sinnes were as crimson, they shall be made white as snow, though they were red like skarlet they shall be as wooll.

19 If yee consent and obey, yee shall eate the good things of the land.

20 But if yee refuse and bee rebellious, yee shall bee deuoured with the sword, for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

See also Esai. 58. what Fast pleaseth God: see also Ieremy 7.9.10. against stea­ling, murder, &c. and such men standing in Gods-house, and Ier. 22.15. Did not your fathers, &c.

Whosoeuer then heareth of mee these words and doth the same (saith our Saui­our) I liken him to a wise-man, Mat. 7.24. which hath builded his house on a rock, 25 and the rayne tell, and the flouds came, and the windes blew, and beate vpon that house, and it fell [Page 168]not, for it was grounded on a rocke.

26 But whosoeuer heareth these my words, and doth them not, shal be likened to a foo­lish man, which hath builded his house vp­on the sand, and the raine fell, & the flouds came, 27 the winds blew, and beate vpon that house, and it fell, and the fall thereof was great.

Then beganne hee to vbraide the Citties wherein most of his great workes were done. Mat. [...]. [...].21. Woe bee to thee Corazin, woe bee to thee Bethsaida, for if the great workes which were done in you, had bene done in Tirus & Sidon, they had repented long ago, in sackcloth and ashes, &c.

O Hypocrites, [...]. [...]9.7. Esaias prophycied well of you, saying:

This people draweth neere vnto me with their mouth, [...]. 29.1 [...]. and honoureth mee with their [...]ippes, [...]ath. [...].3. but their hearts is farre from mee.

Bee ye doers of the word and not hea­rers onely. [...] [...]. [...]2.

Pure religion and vndefiled before God euen the Father, is this, to visite the fa­therlesse and widdowes in their aduersity, & to keepe himselfe vnspotted of the world.

This shall suffice for this time, but I pray you tell me why doth the Lord reiect [...]hose oblations, and say their feasts were a [Page 169]burthen vnto him, were they not appointed by the Law?

Yes, but the Lord doth hate this pleasing of our selues, with outward shews, and ceremoniall seruice, for when there is no inward reformation; The sacrifice of the wicked is an abhomination. Prou 27, 21. Therefore I may well say.

I would aske you one question more if I might,

What is that?

Why doth the Lord say, wash you, make you cleane? can we cleanse our selues? Act. 2.40.

Saint Peter saith to some in the Acts of the Apostles, Saue your selues from this froward generation.

And Saint Paul after he had exhorted Ti­mothy to take héed vnto himselfe, 1. Tim. 4.10 and vnto learning and to continue therein saith.

For in doing this thou shalt both saue thy selfe, and them that heare thee.

[Page 170]

By which places we are giuen to vnder­stand, that as such as teach, if in their calling they labour to bring men to Christ their Sauiour, may assure themselues to bee in the way to saluation: if they beléeue and haue a care to follow that word of God, which they set before others: So if others also which bee exhorted to wash and saue themselues, shall after such exhortations, through the grace of God (by which as the Apostle saith we are made safe) reason thus with thēselues, [...] wee vse to wash that which is soule, and cleause places that are filthy, surely whatsoeuer cleaueth to mee, that the Lord, which is onely perfectly pure, and ho­ly, hath forbidden in his word, and in iustice from time to time punished, threatning eternall death and destruction to such as dy vncleansed, that must needes bee foule and filthy in his sight till it be washed away: but he hath forbidden, threatned and punished idolatry, witchery, blasphemy, periury, con­tempt of the Sabboths, treason, resisting authority, wilfull-muether, filthy fornicati­on, adultery, incest, theft, fraude, wrong, ly­ing, couetousnes, & such like, therfore these, with all their branches, and rootes, are most foule & filthy in Gods sight, If thus I say, they reason with thēselues, & being pricked [Page 171]in their hearts, through the féeling of their owne filthinesse, humbly fall downe before the Almighty, iudging, & cōdemning them­selues, confessing y ^e to thē belongeth shame confusion, death, and damnation, for that they haue sinned against heauen and earth, and shall therewithall pray to God to haue mercy on thē, according to his louing kind­nesse, and according to the multitude of his mercies, to do away theiriniquities, to wash and cleanse them thorougly from them, in the bloud of his Sonne; to create in them & a new heart, and to renew a right spirit within them, hauing therewithall a stedfast purpose to walke in newnesse of life; thus if they do, they may be said, after a sort, to wash themselues, because as people earnestly de­firing to serue God, from hence-forth in newnesse of life, they haue vsed the means to come to the right washing.

Blessed be the Lord Iesus which hath loued vs, Reue. [...]. and washed vs in his owne bloud.

Amen, and God giue the Iewes grace to repent of their errours, which are set downe by Munster, in Hebrue and Lat­tine, before S. Matthew his Gospell; in He­brew, dedicated to King Henry the Eighth.

The ninth Chapman.

I Pray you make an ende with him, for I cannot stay long.

What would you haue?

Salt to season one that can not be perswaded, that God suffereth the Wicked to prosper, and florish, at any time.

Hold heere is for him, spill it not. Among my People there are found wicked Persons, [...] that lay waite, as he that setteth Snares: They haue made a Pitte to catch men.

[...] As a Cage is full of Birds, so are theire Houses full of deceite; thereby they are be­come great, and wax ritch.

2 [...] They are waxed farte, and shining, they oue [...]passe the deeds of the wicked, the ex­c [...]nt [...] no iudgement, no not the iudgement of the Fatherlesse, yet they prosper, though they execute no iudement for the Poore.

Wherefore do the wicked liue, [...] and waxe olde, and growe in wealth? theire seede is [...]stablished in theire sight with them, and theire generations before theire eyes▪

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9 Theire Houses are peaceable without feare, and the rod of God is not vpon them.

Theire Bullocke gendereth and fayleth not, theire Cowe calueth, 10 and casteth not her Calfe. &c.

And in Ecclesiastes we finde, that no man heere vnder the Sunne, can discerne by prosperitie, or aduersity, whom God loueth, or hateth, and therefore it is there sayde▪

All things come a like to all, Eccle. 9.2. He speaket not of their state in the life to come, for the vn­beleeuers, & impenitent dy eternally. and the same condition is to the Iust, and to the Wicked, [...]o the good and pure, and to the polluted, and to him that sacrificeth, and to him that [...]crificeth not, as is the Good, so is the Sin­ner, he that sweareth, as hee that feareth an oath.

By Sacrificing, heere he meaneth, a re­ligions, and sincere worshipping of God: [...]or many bad men did fill the Lord with [...]crifices: Which he loathed, seeing no [...]dement.

Though the wicked many times [...]rish heere, as much as, or, more then [...] righteous, yet there shal not be one con­ [...]ion to them both afterward.

No; neyther while the Body lyeth in the dust, nor after the Resurrection; for the Soules of such as depart hence fayth­lesse, and fruitlesse, are tormented with such [Page 174]torments, as cannot of vs that liue heere be comprehended, and therefore for our ca­pacitie, they are expressed by bodily paines, as appeareth by these wordes.

Send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and coole my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. Saint Augu­stine in one of his Bookes of y ^e City of God, sheweth by the example of the rich man in Hell (who spake the foresaid words) that y ^e soule sometimes féeleth paine, not in corpor [...] constituta, not being in the body, as I shewed to the first Chapman.

Are not the bodies of the wicked tormented before the resurrection?

The same Augustine writing on S. Iohns Gospell, hath these words:

Habent omnes animae, cum de seculo exierint, di­uersas receptiones suas, [...] [...]ra [...] ▪ 49. habent gaudium boni, & mali tormenta: sed cum facta fuerit resurrectio, & bonorum gaudium amplius erit, & malorum tormenta grauiora, quando cum corpore torque­buntur. All soules when they go out of this world, haue their diuers receptacles, the good haue ioy, the bad haue torments: but after the resurrection, the ioy of the good shal hee more, and the torment of the wicked more grieuous; when they shall bee tormen­ted with the body: So that the bodies are [Page 175]not tormented before the resurrection there can be no paine where there is no fee­ling.

What saith the Salter and seasoner of all Salters, touching the Resurrection; for no mans Salt is to be esteemed, if it fauour otherwise then his dooth.

He sayeth:

The hower shall come, Ioh. 5. [...]8. 1. Thes, [...]. [...]. in the which all that are in the Graues shall heare his voice: (which voice the Appostle calleth the voice of the Archangell.)

And they shall come foorth that haue don good vnto the Resurrection of life: But they that haue done euill vnto the Resur­rection of condemnation.

Shall all be condemned that haue done euill?

Heare what the sonne of God sayth to Idolaters vnder the name of Iesabell; which laboured to deceiue Gods Seruants; Aug▪ in Apo­cal. hom▪ 2▪ to make them committe fornication, and to eate [...]eates sacrificed, to Idoles: Which Iesabell, the Gouernour of the Churches doe then suffer (sayth Austin,) when vpon the [...]yotous, the Fornicators, and other ill [...]oers, they lay not the seueritie of Eccles [...] ­ [...]icall discipline.

I gaue her space to repent for her forni­cations, Reu. 2. [...] ▪ [Page 176]and she repented not.

By which words we learne, that euill not repented of, bringeth condemnation.

So, this shall suffice for that mat­ter, let me haue a little more of that Salt I came for, and then I will giue place to an other.

Hold then.

I fretted at the foolish, 4. Psal. when I sawe the prosperity of the wicked, for there are no bands in theire death, but they are lustie, and strong.

They are not in trouble as other men, neyther are they plagued with other men.

Yet many times the Lord sheweth tokens of his wrath vpon the wicked in this life.

They which marke not that, marke nothing, many ruff [...]nly swearers, kill one an other; and so do many drunkards.

Many Traytors make pittes to catch themselues: Many filthy Fornicators are plagued with poxe, and pining.

Many which haue deuoured others, haue beene deuoured themselues, and become starke Beggers.

Many which haue taken a pride in their beauty, haue become so deformed, that they haue hid theire faces for shame.

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Many Theeues, and Murtherers, which haue bound, and spoyled true men, haue themselues, in their most lusty time, mette with Fetters, and Halters: So that though these vngodly Persons flourish for a time, yet they wither away on a sodaine, for they care not a Fly for this which God threat­neth by his Prophet.

The bloud-thirsty, and deceiptfull men, shall not liue out halfe their dayes.

The tenth Chapman.

VVHo comes next?

I doe.

For what?

For Salt to season one that is giuen to sloath, sleepe, and idlenesse.

I haue heere, that is fitte for him?

What do you call it?

It is called Salomons Salt.

A slouthfull hand maketh poore, but the hand of the dilligent maketh ritch.

He that gathereth in summer is the son [...] of wisedome, but he that sleepeth in har [...] is the Sonne of confusion.

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He that tilleth his Land shall be satisfied with Breade, [...]ou, 1 [...].11. but he that followeth the idle is destitute of vnderstanding.

The Sluggard lusteth, but his Soule hath nought, Prou. 1 3.4. but the hand of the dilligent shall haue plenty.

The hande of the diligent shall beare rule, but the idle shall be vnder tribute. Prou. 12, 14.

Loue not sleepe lest thou come vnto po­uertie, Prou. [...]0.13. open thine eyes, and thou shalt be satisfied with bread,

Goe to the Pismire thou sluggard, be­hold her waies, Prou. 6.6.7. and be wise, for she hauing no guide, gouernour, nor ruler, prepareth her meate in summer, and gathereth he [...] foode in haruest.

How long wilt thou sleepe, thou sluggard? When wilt thou arise. &c.

13. The slouthfull man sayth, a Lyon is with­out, I shall be slaine in the streete.

Thou seest that a dilligent man in his bu­sinesse standeth before Kings, and standeth not before the base sort.

Yet I may say to you, friend Salter, [...] haue seene many dilligent Preachers, take [...]ines in congregations, that consist for the [...]ost part of rude and base hearers, which [...]e to note the end of each sentence, with [...]ng, as singing men keepe time by mo­uing [Page 179]of their hand.

And I may say to you friende Chap­man, if there noting be nothing but nod­ding, they will be found in the end, rather noddified then edified, and the seates they nod on, if it be a willing or an vsuall nodding shall be in better case then they, for the seats wanting eares shall not be called to an ac­compt, but the drowsy nodders, that make no difference betwixt their beddes, and their seates, shal know to their cost if they amend not, that God hath not sent men to labour amongst them, some tenne, some twenty, some thirty, or forty yeeres, to the end to lull them asléepe, but to rowse them & wake them out of their drowsie sléepe of grosse ignorance, superstition, idolatry, and as much as may bee, to shake off all sinne and iniquity, to bring them to the true know­ledge of God and themselues, and to open their eyes, that they may sée what danger they be in if they should dye without repen­tance and faith in Iesus Christ, which is not said to come by nodding, but by hea­ring.

But to returne to the Salt you had from a Kings Store-house, touching the diligent standing before Kings: know yee that it is not so to be vnderstood, as though none were [Page 180]diligent or carefull in their places, but those only that are in Kings Courts: but to shew that wise Kings do not place such néere vn­to them, as giue themselues to idlenesse and wantonnesse: but such as be diligent and carefull in searching out from time to time what is best to be done to the glory of God, for the safety of their Prince, the peace of the Church, and the profit of the Common­wealth: such are fittest to stand before Kings. This I take to be that wise Kings meaning, and not that all those that stand before the meaner sort are loyterers: for it is well knowne that many of them, thanks be to God, bee faithfull labourers, though many times they be much crost.

It may bee if they would crosse more, they should be crost lesse.

God giue vs all grace to reioyce in him which was crucified, that is, was faste­ned to the crosse for vs, and make vs all willing, when need shall require, to take vp our crosse and follow him, that is, to beare that which he shall lay vpon vs patiently.

Amen, for if we will raigne with him, [...] ▪ Tim. 11.12. we must suffer with him, and not deny him: But tell me now what I haue to pay, or will you bee ruled by mee, if I tell you what you were best to take for each mea­sure [Page 181]of this kinde of salt?

No.

Why?

Because the sonne of Sirach which was a man, Eccl. 37.11. forbiddeth to aske counsel of the buyer for the sale.

Doth not the same man in the same place forbid also to aske Councell for religion of him that is without religion, or of iustice of him that hath no iustice?

Yes, what then?

Then we had need take heed whom we make our Teacher in matters of religi­on, and our Counsellor in matters of iu­stice.

No doubt of that.

The eleuenth Chapman.

NOw serue me.

What salt would you haue?

Such as is fit for one that is ready to giue his word, or become suerty for such as speake him faire, suspecting no fraud, nor considering his owne ability.

If he be [...]uch a one, it may be you [Page 182]come too late for him, if the Sergeants haue had him by the backe already; many make no conscience to leaue their suerties in the bryers, when they haue had their owne de­sires: therefore men must ioyne discretion with their kindnesse, lest by bringing them­selues in bondage to set others frée, they de­serue the name, not of kinde friends, but of kind sooles, it were good for a man to eate a bushell of salt with one ere he come to be his suerty.

What meane you by that?

I meane he should be well acquain­ted with him before.

It is fit for a Christian to carry a charitable minde.

True but yet hee must remember, that all is not gold that glistereth.

Sir I came not for your raw rimes, but for your Canonicall salt.

Hold then: P [...]. [...]. 1. 2, My sonne, if thou be suerty for thy neighbour, and hast stricken hands with the stranger, thou art snared with the words of thy mouth.

Do this my sonne, 3 and deliuer thy selfe, [Page 183]seeing thou art come into the hand of thy neighbour: Goe and humble thy selfe, and solicite thy friends.

Giue no sleepe to thine eyes, 4 nor slum­ber to thine eye-lids, deliuer thy selfe as a Doe from the hand of the Hunter, and as a Bird from the hand of the Fowler.

Be not of them that touch the hand, nor among them that are suerty for debts: Prou. 22.26. If thou hast nothing to pay, why causest thou that hee should take thy bed from vnder thee.

I perceiue then that that suerty which suffereth his word to runne beyond his wealth, is in great danger, else he should not bee compared to hunted Does, and silly birds, for whom the Fowler setteth his Nets.

Hee is so compared you sée, and the rather because many Creditors, wanting compassion, regard no circumstances; as whether their debters be young beginners, or men of long continuance; whether vn­acquainted with cousening trickes, or such as by long experience haue béene taught to take héed; whether they bee such as breake through pouerty, or such as shut vp win­dowes of pollicie, to bring their Creditors to take 10. pounds for 20. pounds, and so [Page 184]enrich themselues by other mens losses: which to doe is sinne, and shame, séeing the Apostle saith: Owe nothing to any man, but loue. Rom. [...]3.8.

And the Almighty forbidding to steale in the eighth Commmandement, condem­neth all fraudulent dealing: But if some gréene head being more kinde to others, then carefull for himselfe, and more fed with promises then fearefull of perils, bee drawne into a desperate suretiship, out of the which he can by no meanes rid himselfe being neuer so willing: In this case, if the Creditor deale with extremity, take him by the throate, or at least by the coate, and cast him into prison, hee shall shew himselfe to be no good Christian, because he wanteth charity, without which if a man had al faith, so that hee could moue mountaines, hee were in the Apostles iudgement iust no­thing. 1, Cor. 13.2.

It may be I shall meete with some such Creditors ere it bee long, therefore I will craue some salt to season them ere I goe; but first I pray you let me heare your minde touching those words, (all Faith:) may a man haue all faith, and want charity; doth not faith worke by loue, Galla. 5.6. 1. Cor. 13.9. and loue be­leeue all things?

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No doubt but faith when it wor­keth any thing sincerely to shew it selfe by workes, as by good fruits, vnto such as are desirous to know what they are before they kéepe company with them: Psal. 119.63. (For the godly are companions with such as feare God) doth worke by loue: And when the loue of a true Christian, is said to beleeue euery thing (meaning that is to bee beléeued:) o­therwise Salomon saith: Prou. 14.15. The foole belee­ueth euery thing (meaning without exami­ning) that loue vndoubtedly beleeueth through Faith: so that Faith working by Loue, and Loue beléeuing through Faith, must néeds kéepe house together, not to saue charges, as many doe, but to the end their hospitality may bee the greater, I meane, that they may worke the more effectually.

I thinke you say true: but yet you haue not shewd mee your minde touching these words: If a man haue all faith.

What meane you to be so desirous to know my minde, which am but a poore Salter? Ake men of greater iudgement.

Doe not you remember what any of those haue said in this matter?

When M. Sherwin in the Tower, the last of August, 1601. did very vehement­ly vrge those words, All faith, all faith, with­out [Page 186]charity is nothing worth, one of his fa­uourites said afterwards in a certaine phamphelet, here silence was the answere, But how truely say the graue and learned men which conferred with Maister Campi­on, See the first daies con­ference with Maister Campion. let himselfe sée, for it was straight an­swered, Maister Sherwin you may sée the Apostle speaketh there of faith in working miracles, euen by the words of the Apostle himselfe, who saith, If I should haue all saith, so that I could remoue mountaines, and haue no charity, I am nothing, and whē he cryed still, omnem fidem, all faith, and that therefore it must containe our faith al­so, else we had none at all, It was answered by vs, if you will not beléeue vs, yet let S. Chrisostomes exposition be of some autho­rity with you, who calleth it faith, not of do­ctrines but of miracles.

Are there more faithes then one?

Peter Martyr on the Iudges saith there are three kindes of faith found, for there is a faith which consisteth of humaine opinion & perswasion, whereby those things which are written in holy Scriptures are beléeued to be no lesse true, then y ^e Histories of Liui, Suetonius, and those things which are written, of the new Islands. This kind of faith, as touching many things, is com­mon [Page 187]to the Turks and Iewes: There is a­nother faith, whereby we being stirred vp, by the heauenly inspiration, doe liuely and with efficacy cleaue to the promise of the mercy of God, by this faith certainely is at­tained iustification. The third faith is called the faith of miracles, whereby wee are nei­ther changed nor made the better by a haire, for as much as it is the mouing of the Spi­rit of God, werewith men are stirred vp, to desire miracles, vtterly beléeuing that it is the will of God, they should be done, and that which is required should haue successe, wherefore whilst they leane vnto this faith, sometimes they obtaine that which they de­sire, which I therefore speake, because not alwaies they do so, neither are they alwaies illustrate with that inspiration.

If so bee thou will demande (saith hee) how this kind of faith can bee proued, let Chrysostome answere, which vpon the 17. of Matthew maketh mention of it, There Christ saith: If you haue faith so much as is a graine of mustard-seed, you shall say to this mountaine, throw thy selfe into the sea, and it shall do it.

In expounding these words, this Father saith, because at this day these things are not done in the Church, shall we therefore [Page 188]say that Christians are destitute of faith, God-forbid that we should iudge so euill of the people of God, the faith which iustifieth is present, but that which is called the faith of miracles hath now ceased. This kind of faith also is shewed by the words of the A­postle. 1. Cor. where he saith, although that I haue all faith, so that I can remoue mountaines, and haue not charity, I am no­thing, neither let that trouble vs, in that he saith all for y ^e distribution is to be drawn to y ^e faith of miracles. But y ^t is more manifest­ly proued by y ^e same Epistle, where y ^e Apo­stle maketh mention, of free gracious gifts, saying, to some is giuen the word of wise­dome, to other the word of knowledge, to some the power to heale, and to other some faith in the same Spirit, &c. That faith can­not in this place be vnderstood, whereby we are iustified, for it (meaning the iustifying faith is not reckoned among gifts, which are priuately distributed to some, but is common to all true Christians.

What if I should not content my selfe with that exposition of Saint Chriso­stome and others, but still vrge the words (all faith) if you were to answere, would you not haue a care to satisfy me?

I haue a care? if such men cannot [Page 189]satisfie you, how should I hope to do it?

If you would say nothing, I would goe home, and say you were si­lent.

And I might go home and say you were troublesome and froward, but rather then you should put mee to a non plus, I would shape you another answere.

You'r a Salter and not not a Tay­lor, and therefore you should rather say, you would season, then shape me an answere.

No man vseth that phrase, besides I must bee sure that mine answere must bee of some force to season you in this pointer I make that promise, least if it should haue no strength, the learned say I haue answered insulsé, vnsauourly, vndiscreetly, but such as it is take it.

The Apostle séemeth to mee to labour to set forth the excellency of charity, which is the badge of true Christianity, and to the end he might stirre vp men to be more care­full to possesse it he speaketh by way of sup­position, supposing that which cannot bee; saying y ^t I may vtter it Paraphrastically, If I had all faith, not onely that faith by which men worke miracles, but also (if it were possible it might bee separated from charity) that faith by which wee apprehend [Page 190]Christ Iesus, our iustification and righte­ousnesse, and had it without loue, 1. Cor. 13.4 5 6 7 8 it would profite me nothing towards long suffering bountifulnesse, the audiding of enuy, boa­sting, disdaining, &c. no more then either fée­ding of the poore with all my goods doth profite me, if I do it for vaine glory not of compassion, pittiyng the miserable estate of the néedy, or yéelding my body to the fire, not for loue of truth (which cannot but bee in him that hath the iustifying faith) but be­cause I would bee reckoned in the number of the Martyrs, if I say it were possible to haue all kind of faith, and had not loue, I were nothing. Thus you sée a man might make a shift to say somthing to such as will néeds haue all faith to comprehend the iusti­fying faith also: but I like S. Chrysostomes exposition best.

But if men been so froward that they will not admit his exposition, then some other must bee framed, and that of yours would (perhaps) be the better liked, if such as so earnestly vrge Omnem fidem, all faith, if in some other place the same Apo­stle doth presuppose a thing vnpossible.

In the 1. to the Galath. he saith: Though wee (that is, Gal. 8. [...]. if it were possible) that we, or an Angell from Heauen preach [Page 191]vnto you otherwise then that which wee haue preached, let him be accursed.

I pray tell me what you doe note in those words: Though wee, or an An­gell, &c.

You shall heare what Saint Austin (expounding that Chapter) saith: the truth is to be beloued for it selfe, not for the man or Angell by whom it is set forth, for he that loueth it propter annuntiatores, for their sakes which shew it, may also loue lyes, if per­haps they will bring any of their owne.

I perceiue this Father would haue truth to be liked, and lyes to be loathed for themselues, and not to be receiued or refu­sed according as wee like or dislike the men that bring them.

True: yet this fault is too common, to heare or not heare the Sermons, to read, or not reade the writings, to receiue, or not receiue the Sacraments at the hands of men, but as we like them; it is great weak­nesse that the faults of men, but greater weaknes that the coates and colours should driue vs from hearing and receiuing that, which in it selfe is sound and faultlesse, hol­some and harmelesse: the word of God is most pure, the Sacraments full of comfort, though we be sinfull men, and vnworthy to [Page 192]minister such holy things. The teacher and hearer are to pray one for another, that the one may minister, the other receiue, in some measure, worthily, and as is fit for their cal­ling, lest both smart for their negligence herein.

Some say where teachers vary, it is hard for the vnlearned to iudge what Doctrine is to be followed, and which Tea­cher is true.

None are allowed to set forth any doctrine that is not warranted in the word of God: if any doe, hee which is called the truth, sheweth how we shall know the true teacher in these words: If any man will do his will.

Doth the meane the Popes will?

I maruaile why you interrupt me, I am sure you are not so ignorant, to thinke there were Popes in our Sauiours time. He meaneth by his will his fathers will, Ioh. 7.16. y ^t sent him, as appeareth by the verse afore­going.

Say on then.

If any man will know his will, hee shall know the doctrine whether it bee of God, or whether I speake of my selfe.

He that speaketh of himselfe seeketh his owne glory, but he that seeketh his glory [Page 193]that sent him, the same is true, and no vn­righteousnesse is in him. Now al-be-it our Sauiour speaketh chiefly of himselfe, in whom is no vnrighteousnesse, yet he setteth downe these as notes, whereby wee may know, both who shall finde the [...]ue do­ctrine, euen he that doth his will, and also how we shall know the true teacher, which is not hee that séeketh his owne glory, but the glory of him that sent him.

But how shall wee know the Fa­thers will?

The voyce that came out of the cloud at the transfiguration, Math. 17▪ [...] (where Mo­ses the Minister of the Law, and Elias, a chiefe man among the Prophets appeared, as it were to resigne the right, and to shew that Christ, whose face did then shine as the Sunne, &c. was hee that must fulfill the Law, and the Prophets: that voyce I say, did make knowne the Fathers will, saying:

This is my beloued sonne in whom I am well pleased, heare him. If then wee will giue eare to the Sonne, hée will teach vs what we should do: It is the will of his Father we should heare his Sonne, and his Sonne teacheth vs in his Testament, that we must amend our liues, beléeue in him, [Page 194]and loue one another. But by digressing to speake of all faith, I thinke you haue for­gotten all cruell Creditors, for the seasoning of whom you said you would craue some Salt ere you went.

I would haue some, not onely for them, but for all such as are so carryed away, with hatred that they cannot frame themselues to forgiue such as haue offended them, though when they say the Lords prayer, if the searcher of hearts could bee mocked, they would make him beleeue they forgiue, like good charitable peo­ple.

Here is very good Salt for such, if they would taste it, and not spit it out a­gaine, as many do, whatsoeuer their sicke taste liketh not.

Then came Peter to him, Math. 18.21. and said, Maister, how oft shall my brother sinne against me, and I shall forgiue him, vnto seauen times?

22 Iesus said vnto him, I say not vnto thee, vnto seauen times, but vnto seauenty times seauen times.

[...]3 Therfore is the kingdome of heauen like­ned vnto a certain King, which would take account of his seruants, & when he had be­gun to reckon, one was brought vnto him [Page 195]which ought him ten thousand talents: and because he had nothing to pay, his Maister commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and his children, and all that he had, and the debt to be payd.

The seruant therefore fell downe and be­sought him saying: Maister, appease thine anger towards me, and I will pay thee all. Then that seruants maister had compassion, and loosed him, and forgaue him the debt, &c. to the 32. verse, where it is said, that:

Then his maister called him, and said vn­to him: ô thou euill seruāt, 32 I for gaue thee all that debt, because thou praiedst me, oughtst not thou also to haue had pitty on thy fel­low, euen as I had pitty on thee? So his mai­ster was wroth, and deliuered him to the Iaylors, till hee should pay all that was due to him.

So likewise shall my heauenly Father do to you, Note. except you forgiue from your hearts, each one to his brother their tres­passes.

Blessed bee the mercifull, Math. 5.7. for they shall obtaine mercy.

Be ye courteous one towards another, Eph. 4.3 [...]. & tender hearted, forgiuing one another, euen as God for Christs sake forgaue you.

Whatsoeuer you would that men should [Page 196]doe vnto you, euen so doe yee to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

If you doe forgiue men their trespasses, your heauenly father will also forgiue you your trespasses. Math. 6▪ 14▪

[...] But if you do not forgiue men their tres­passes, no more will your father forgiue you your trespasses.

Now therefore as the elect of God, [...]ol. 3.11, ho­ly and beloued, put on tender mercy, kind­nesse, humblenesse of minde, meeknesse, long suffering.

Forbearing one another, and forgiuing one another, 1 [...] if any man haue a quarrell to another: euen as Christ forgaue, euen so doe yee.

[...]4 And aboue all things put on loue, which is the bond of perfectnesse.

The twelfth Chapman.

NOW come I.

For whom?

For one that is very curious in wa­shing his hands, and in cleansing the out­sides of all his vessels, but if one looke in­to [Page 197]the inside of them, he shall finde them so foule and filthy, that it would loath a man to eate any thing that commeth out of them.

I haue some for you, besides that which I deliuered to the eight Chapman, & that is this.

Woe bee to you Scribes and Pharisies, Mat. [...]3.25. hypocrites, for yee make cleane the vtter side of the cup and platter, but within they are full of bribery, and excesse.

26Thou blind Pharisie cleanse first the in­side of the cup, and platter, that the outside of them may be cleane also.

Wo be to you Scribes and Pharisies, 27 hy­pocrites, for you are like vnto whited tombes, which appeare beautifull outward, but are within full of dead-mens bones, 28 & of all filthinesse: so are yee also, for out­ward yee appeare righteous vnto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisie, and iniqui­ty, yee lay the commandements of God apart, and obserue the traditions of men. Mark. 7.28.

This is somewhat a byting Salt.

It is such as is fit for the men you come for, therefore if you like it take it, and giue place to another.

I like it well, but I would haue some more of it, for such men cannot, haue [Page 198]too much of this kind of Salt

Then you make a great difference betwixt this Salt, and that which is com­monly set on the Table, the which although it be commodious and necessary for many things: yet S. Augustine saith thus of it. Salem immoderatius acceptum, De moribus Manicheorum cap. 8. quis non venenus, esse clamauerit? who cryeth not that salt immoderately taken is poyson?

But store of Canonicall Salt, well giuen, and well taken doth not poyson but season, therfore I pray you let me haue some more.

Euery one will deceiue his friend, Ier. 5.4. and will not speake the truth, for they haue taught their tongues to speake lies, and take great paines to do wickedly, &c.

Therefore thus saith the Lord of Hosts, behold I will melt them, 7 and try them, &c.

8Their tongue is as an arrow shut out, and speaketh deceit, one speaketh peaceably to his neighbour, with his mouth, but in his heart he layeth waite for him.

9Shall I not visite for these things, saith the Lord, or shal not my soule be aduenged on such a nation as this?

Past grace bee they that make light of this Salt, but I will giue place.

The thirteenth Chapman.

I am glad I haue his roome.

You would bee more glad if you had all Rome.

What it hath bene in times past, I know not, but since I can remember, I can see no such good come from thence, as should moue any wise-man to bee in loue with it, I cannot bee perswaded that super­stition, idolatry, gazing on babies, roarinig Buls conspiracies, vndermining of states, monstruous cruelty, &c. come from Peters chaire, such Babylons cannot but fall and come to confusion, the English pillars of it begin to totter already, thanks bee to God, God grant that the Preachers and profes­sors of the Gospell, may loue one another, and that euery one may keepe his standing, as contented in his place, to helpe what hee may, to beare vp the roofe of so much of the Lords house, as is here amongst vs.

Chapman I will bee your Clarke this once, and say Amen to your praier, but tell me now what you come for.

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I would haue Salt to season one, that trusteth to his riches, and is so carryed away with couetousnesse, that he thinketh corne is neuer deere enough.

Take this, Iam. 3 24. The Lord is my porti­on, saith my soule, therefore I will hope in him.

25The Lord is good to them that trusteth him, and to the soule that seeketh him.

26It is good both to trust and to waite for the saluation of the Lord.

If riches increase set not your hearts vp­on them. Psal. 62, 10▪

Doublesse man walketh in a shadow, Psal. 39.6. and disquieteth himselfe in vaine, he heapeth vp riches and cannot tell who shall gather them.

And hee that receiueth the seed among thornes, Mat. 1 [...].22. is he that heareth the word, but the care of this world, and the deceitfulnesse of riches, choake the word, and he is made vn­fiuitfull.

Children, Mark. 10.24. how hard is it for them that trust in riches, to enter into the Kingdome of God.

Riches auaile not in the day of wrath, P [...]ou, 11.4. but righteousnesse deliuereth from death.

The liberall person shall haue plenty, [...]. [...], 25. and he that watereth shall also haue raine.

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Hee that withdraweth the corne the people will cursse him, Prou. but blessing shall bee vpon the head of him that selleth corne.

The graue and destruction can neuer be full, 22.9. so the eyes of men can neuer bee satis­fied.

He that hath a good eye he shall be bles­sed for he giueth of his bread to the poore. 27.20.

Heare this ye that swallow vp the poore, Amos. 8.4. that ye make the needy of the land to faile.

Saying, 5 when will the new moneth be­ginne that we may sell corne.

And the Sabboth that wee may set forth wheate, and make the Ephah ( that is the measure) small, and the Shekell ( that is the price) great, and falsefy the waights of de­ceite.

That wee may buy the poore for siluer, 6 and the needy for shewes, yet sell the refuse of the wheate.

The Lord hath sworne by the excellency of Iacob, surely, 7 I will neuer forget any of their workes.

Shall not the land tremble for this, 8 and euery one mourne that dwelleth therin?

When wee haue foode and rayment, Tim. 16.8. let is therewith be content.

For they that will be rich fall into temp­tation and snares, 6 and into many foolish and [Page 202]noysome lusts, which drowne men in per­dition and destruction.

10For the desire of money is the roote of all euill, which while some lusted after they erred from the faith, and pierced them­selues through with many sorrowes.

11But thou ô man of God slee these things and follow after righteousnesse, godlinesse, faith, loue, patience, & meekenesse.

17Charge them which are rich in this world that they be not high-minded, and that they trust not in vncertaine riches, but in the li­uing God which giueth vs al things aboun­dantly to enioy. Will you haue any more?

Not at this time, onely I desire to know what the Lord meaneth by the excel­lency of Iacob.

In that place which I cited out of the eighth of Amos. ver. 7. by the excellen­cy of Iacob is ment the Lord himselfe, for he vseth not to sweare by any other, but in Chap. 6. ver. 8. it is taken for the power and riches of that people, in which things they did glory, the words be these:

The Lord God hath sworne by himselfe, saith the Lord God of Hostes, I abhorre the excellency of Iacob, and hate his Pallaces.

The fourteenth Chapman.

IF you haue don with him, I pray you serue me next.

What kinde of Salt would you haue?

I would haue Salt for an vnseaso­ned Youth, that haunteth Harlots houses, not regarding his Parents precepts.

If he regard not the Commande­ment of the eternall God, who sayth, Thou shalt not commit adulterie, threatning to wound the hearie Scalpe of such as goe on still in their wickednesse: No meruaile if he regard not his Parents, who cannot (if they would) wound so deepe as the most Mighty, who can cast Bodie, and Soule in­to Hell, vnto that same gnawing worme that neuer dyeth, and into that burning fire which no man can quench.

Well, let me see what else you haue besides this.

I promise you if this will not serue, I know not what will serue; for what will he feare that feareth not Hell? But because [Page 204]you are desirous to haue more, you shall haue more, but none more sharpe.

My Sonne, Pro 6.20 keepe thy Fathers comman­dements, and forsake not thy Mothers in­struction.

What if some superstitious Father or Mother, (which thinke none to be the true members of the Catholike Church, but such as follow the Pope, and obey him in whatsoeuer he cōmandeth,) should charge theire Sonne to go to Remes, or Rome, and there stay till he shall be thought fit to re­tourne hether againe, to teach men how to worke mischife, by blowing vp, not one, or two, but the whole Parliament-house? Ought such a Sonne to obay such a Parent?

God forbid be should, or that any should be so sottish, as to thinke that the wisedome of God ( that spake by Salomon) should commande to do that which God for­bad, when he said:

Thou shalt do no murther, shed no inocent bloud, touch not mine Annointed, doe my Prophets no harme.

Say on then.

Binde them alwaies vpon thy heart, Pro. 6.21.22. and tye them about thy necke, it shall leade thee when thou walkest, it shall watch for thee when thou sleepest, and when thou [Page 205]wakest, it shall talke with thee.

23For the Commandement is a Lanthorne, and instruction is light, and corrections, for instructions are the way of life.

24To keepe thee from the wicked woman, and from the flatterie of the tongue of a strange Woman.

25Desire not her beauty in thine heart, ney­ther let her take thee with her eye liddes.

26For because of the Whorish Woman, a Man is brought to a morsell of Bread, and a Woman will hunt for the pretious life of a man. &c.

32He that committeth adulterie with a wo­man is destitute of vnderstanding, he that doth it destroyeth his owne Soule.

And in the sixth Chapter after, he hath set downe the intising speaches of the Adul­tresse: He saith:

12Thus with her great craft she caused him to yeeld, 7 and with her flattering lippes she entised him: And he followed her straight waies, as an Oxe that goeth to the slaughter, and as a Foole to the stockes for correction.

22Till a Dart strike through his Liuer, as a bird hasteth to the snare, not knowing that he is in danger.

23Heare me now therefore O Children, and hearken to the words of my mouth.

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25Let not thine heart decline to herwaies, wander thou not in her pathes.

26For she hath caused many to fall downe wounded, and the strong men are all slaine by her.

27Her house is the way vnto the graue, which goeth downe to the chambers of death.

Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ: 1. Cor. 6.15. shall I then take the members of Christ, & make them the mem­bers of a Harlot? God forbid.

26Do ye not know that he which coupeleth himselfe with an Harlot is one bodie? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

17But he that is ioyned to the Lord is one spirit.

18Flee fornication, euery sinne that a man doth, is without the bodie, but he that com­mitteth fornication, sinneth against his own body.

Know ye not that your body is the Tem­ple of the Holy Ghost, 19 which is in you, whome you haue of God? and now are not owne.

20For you are bought for a price, therefore gloryfie God in your bodie, and in your spi­rit, for they are Gods.

This I thinke may suffice to draw him from that haunt, but tell me one thing, did [Page 207]you neuer heare this Youth speake of mar­riage?

I remember once I heard him say, that if euer he married, he would haue one that should please his eye, and bring good store of money, let her qualyties and religi­on be what they will; therefore he had need be seasoned for this point.

Heere is for that matter.

Fauor is deceitfull, and beauty is vanity, Pro. 31.30 but a Woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praysed.

As a Iewell of Gold in a Swines snowt, 11.22. so is a faire Woman that lacketh discretion.

Who shall finde a verteous Woman, 30.11 for her price is farre aboue the Pearles.

House and ritches are the inheritance of the Fathers, 19.14. but a prudent Wife commeth of the Lord. 16.18

Pride goeth before destruction, Pride. and an high minde before the falle.

Thou shalt make no couenant with them. Deut. 7.2.3.4 &c. ( speaking of the Hittites, &c.) Neither shalt thou make marriages with them: Nei­ther giue thy Daughter to his Sonne, nor take his Daughter vnto thy Sonne, for they will cause thy Sonne to turne away from me, and to serue other Gods; then will the wrath of the Lord waxe whotte against you [Page 208]to destroy thee sodainely.

And Ahab the sonne of Omri did worse in the sight of the Lord, then all that were before him: for was it a light thing for him to walke in the sinnes of Ieroboam the son of Nebat, except hee tooke Iesabell also the daughter of Ethbaal King of the Sidoni­ans to wife, and went and serued Baal, and worshipped him?

If the youth haue any wit, or any care of himselfe, this may serue to make him take heed whom hee matcheth.

The fifteenth Chapman.

THen you may depart that I may haue your place.

What lacke you?

I would haue some Salt to season certaine seruants, which are negligent, fro­ward, vntrusty, and [...]arelesse in their mai­sters businesse, especially in their Maisters absence, when they ought to bee most dili­gent and carefull.

These are fowle faults, much hurt hath bene done in this land by negligence, [Page 209](though not so much as was intended by di­uellish diligence, and likely to haue béene effected, had not our good God, by their own letters reuealed it) seruants and other haue béene too carelesse in looking to their fire and candle.

Indeede (as you say) there hath beene a diuellish diligence, of Popish pyo­ners, and bloudy vnder-miners in their lur­king, working more then monstrous mis­chiefe, their words smoother then Oyle, Charity, Charity: but their deedes sharper then swords: Crucifie, Crucifie: pleasant names, Catholicke, Catholicke: piercing natures, Caine-like, Caine-like; but God turne their hearts. But whereas you sayd much hurt hath beene done in this land by such as haue beene so carelesse in looking to their fire and candle: many haue found it too true. Some sticke their candle vpon a wall, and so fall asleepe before they put it out: some goe to seeke this or that where there is straw, flaxe, or powder, and because they more minde the thing they looke, then the candle they looke with, on a soddaine marre all: some laying a heape of straw in the Kitchin, making fire vnder a pan, being called away in haste, make great waste, in that they forget to make all sure before [Page 210]they goe: others being drowsie, standing by, vndo their maisters and many others.

If they had water it would little a­uayle. if they haue so little wit, that they put by the haire-cloth, thinking by their so doing to saue a little malt: for the flame flyeth vp to the thacke, which not being lined with lath and lime, is soone set on fire.

There is also much hurt done by carrying fire in wispes of straw, or dishes not couered, especially when the winde is busie: some Stewards which haue kept Courts, haue set downe penaltties for such negligence, it were well if all would doe so.

Wel, whatsoeuer faults the Ser­uants haue, it shall be good for them to taste of this which now I deliuer vnto you.

A discreete seruant shall haue rule ouer a lewd sonne, Prou. 17.2. and hee shall diuide the heri­tage among the brethren.

Who then is a faithfull seruant, and wise, whom his maister hath made ruler ouer his houshold, Mat. 24.4 [...] to giue them meat in due season, blessed is that seruant whom his Maister when he commeth shall finde so doing.

46Verily I say vnto you, hee shall make him ruler ouer all his goods.

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This may seeme to encourage a discreete and diligent seruant, to continue in well doing: I would haue salt to season such as bee not so quicke and diligent: for if they were, they should not need quicke­ning: for that horse which of himselfe will stirre, needes not bee quickened with the spurre.

Why then take this, apply it where néed requireth.

But if that euill seruant shall say in his heart: Mat. 24.48 My Maister doth deferre his com­ming, and begin to smite his fellowes, 49 and to eate and drinke with the drunken.

That seruants maister will come in a day when hee looketh not for him, 51 and in an houre that hee is not ware of, and will cut him off, and giue his portion with hypo­crites, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Seruants be obedient vnto them that are your maisters according to the flesh, Eph. 6, 5. with feare and trembling in singlenesse of heart, 6 as vnto Christ, not with seruice to the eye, as men-pleasers, but as the seruants of Christ, doing the will of God frō the heart, 7 with good will, seruing the Lord, and not men. And know yee, that whatsoeuer good any man doth, that same shall hee receiue [Page 212]of the Lord, 8 whether hee bee bond or free.

Let seruants be subiect to their maisters and please them in all things, Titus 2, 9. not answering againe: neither pickers, but that they shew all good faithfulnesse, that they may a­dorne the Doctrine of God our Sauiour in alll things.

This is a good lesson for our coun­try seruants, which bee euer gadding to games, and wandring to wakes, and that on the Lords day, where either they play a­way their money at Nine-holes, or else cudgell one another so long, till some of them go home with broken pates, or losse of an eye, and then if their Maisters find fault with them, and tell them that they spoyle their horses by letting them stand so long without water and meate, they will giue a snappish answere, and at Midsommer giue them warning to prouide themselues of another against Michaelmas, and how little care they haue to adorne the doctrine of God, appeareth both by this, that they will be couered in the Church, as if they were aged, or sickly: and also by this, that of all places by their good will, or rather bad will, they would not dwell where there is Catechising.

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If may be, when their owne rodde or cudgell hath well beaten them, they will become better, and in the meane time stand more in awe, if Minister, Maister, Consta­ble, or Church-wardens do their duties: and so you may depart.

The sixteenth Chapman.

GLad am I.

And tell me why.

Because I haue stayed a good while, I am weary with standing so long, & heere was no place to sit.

Come you for your selfe or for o­thers?

I come not for my selfe, but for Traytors.

I haue not for you, you must go to the Tower.

I haue heard indeed that there is good rough Salt, it will search into the bones, and through the bones, but that Salt is cast vpon them that be conuicted, vnlesse there bee some pardon vpon vnfaigned re­pentance, I would haue some Salt as is good [Page 214]to preserue men from becomming such vn­sauory monsters as stinke of gunpowder, weresoeuer they goe.

I thinke I haue some heere fit for that purpose, if it bee well mingled with herbe-grace,

Cursse not the King, no not in thy thought, Eccle. 10.20 neither cursse the rich in thy bed­chamber, for the foule of the heauen shall carry the voyce, and that which hath wings, shall declare the matter.

The Lord cause one of the chiefest of the foules to declare dangerous designes of late.

What call you that fowle?

Eagle which mounted and made hast to the Court (some say) as soone as hee espied a shew of bloud, vpon a peece of pa­per, I meane, when he suspected some blou­dy plot, or at least was amazed.

Blessed bee God that made that Eagle make such spéed after the sight of the paper: there is good hope that the diuell hath but a short time, hee thareth so sore and would haue roared more, if God had not stopt his mouth in time, but if you will haue any more of this kind of Salt héere it is.

Let them bee confounded and put to shame that seeke after my soule, [...]sal 35.4. let them be [Page 215]turned backe, and put to confusion that ima­gine mine hurt.

5Let them be as chaffe before the winde, and let the Angell of the Lord seatter them.

6Let there way be darke and slippery, and let the Angell of the Lord persecute them.

7For without cause they haue hide the pit, and their net for mee, without cause haue they digged a pit for my soule.

And Dauid faid to Abishai destroy him not, 1. Sam. 26.9. &c. for who can lay his hand vpon the Lords Annointed, and be guiltlesse.

11The Lord keep me from laying my hand vpon the Lords annointed.

This know all that in the last dayes shall come perilous times, 2. Tim. 3.1. for men shall be lo­uers of their owne selues, couetous, boa­sters, proud, &c.

2Without naturall affection, truce-brea­kers, false accusers, &c. Traytors, heady, high-minded, &c. turne away therefore from such.

Then when Iudas which betrayed him saw that he was condemned, Mat. 27.3. he repented him­selfe, and brought againe the thirty peeces of siluer to the chiefe Priests and Elders.

4Saying, I haue sinned betraying the in­nocent bloud, but they said, what is that to vs, see thou to it.

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And when hee had cast down the siluer­plates in the Temple, he departed and went and hanged himselfe.

And so did Achitophel in Dauids time, [...]. Sam. 17.23. when hee saw his counsell against the King was not followed.

If we would beleeue indeed that these things are true, wee should insteed of being slaues vnto such sinnes, striue against them with all the might wee had, yea wee should pray heartily for strength to with­stand such horrible wickednesse, and hold this for a truth, that it is not noblenesse, but haughtinesse, not piety but pride, not religi­on but rebellion, that makes such kind of men, so stubbornely refuse to obey, such as the King of Kings hath placed ouer them.

If such Parents and Tutors, as are so addicted to Popery, would, instéed of féeding their children with beades and ba­bies, call them to reade some chapter of the Bible, either in the old or new Testament morning and euening, superstition, and re­bellion would bee loathsome vnto them in short space, especially if they would vse prayer, and frequent the Church, in which such as be wise will do what in them lyeth, to haue wise and sober guides, least through ignorance and ill behauiour they rather of­fend [Page 217]then amend, such as come to heare them.

It were great happinesse, yea a great blessing of God indeed, if euery Tea­cher could do as hee teacheth, but there is no man liuing I thinke without some fault, do none of the ancient fathers acknowledge this in their time?

You shall heare what one of them wrot more then twelue hundred yeares past: who dare assigne to himselfe, that hee doth all things that God commandeth? Ne­mo prosus nemo, no man, no man, at all, predicamus, & non facimus, we Preach and do not, you heare and regard not, merito omnes sumus sub flagello, wee are all wor­thily vnder the whippe doth Teacher and doer, hearer and contemner, we studdy to find fault one with another, we do not stud­dy to sift our owne workes, one neighbour backebyteth another: one Clearke backeby­teth another Clearke, and one lay-man an­ther, certainly, I see men accusing one ano­ther, but I see no man, iustè se excusantem, iustly excusing himselfe.

The seuenteenth Chapman.

I Pray you sir if you haue any Salt, (for so I vnderstand you call the holy Scripture) that is fit to season such as seek to charmers, Sorcerers, and witches, let mee hauesome.

Our Sauiour Christ called his Disciples (who were to season men with the word) the Salt of the earth, and therefore I thought I might without offence, call the word of God, Mat. 5.13. I meane the holy Scrip­tures, Salt, & for your purpose take this.

And he ( meaning Manasseh who raigned in Iuda, after his father Ezekiah) did euill in the sight of the Lord, 2. Chron. 33. like the abhomina­ons of the Heathen, 2 whom the Lord had cast out, before the children of Israel.

Hee cause his sonnes to passe through the fire in the valley of Benhinnon, he gaue himselfe to witchcraft, [...] and to charming, and to sorcery, and he vsed them that had familliar spirits, and sooth-sayers: hee did very much euill in the sight of the Lord, to anger him.

And the Lord spake to Manasseh and to his people, but they would not regard, 20 Wherfore the Lord brought vpon them the [Page 219]captaines of the hoast of the King of Ashur, which tooke Manasseh, and put him in fet­ters, and bound him in chaines, 11 and carried him to Babel.

You shall not vse witchcraft, &c,

You shall not regard them that vse wit­craft, neither sooth-sayers, Leuit. 19, 26 ye shall not seek to them, to bee defiled by them, 31 I am the Lord your God.

If a man or woman haue a spirit of diui­nation in them, or sooth-saying in them, they shall dye the death, they shall stone thē to death, their bloud shall be vpon them.

In the Epistle to the Galathians, witch­craft is reckoned among those deedes of the flesh, that hinder vs from inheriting the Kingdome of God. Gal. 5.20.

Shall none in whom such workes of the flesh haue bene found, be saued?

Yes if they striue to enter in at y ^e straite gate our Sauiour speaketh of in y ^e 13. of Saint Luk. which is not onely to say Lord, Lord, or to heare a Sermon, or to come to eate and drinke at the communion vnprepared, but depart from iniquity, to re­pent truely, to cleaue to Christ vnfaignedly, and to shew forth fruits of asound faith cō ­tinually: but I neuer heard of any witch, that thus returned.

The eighteenth Chapman.

IF you haue done with him, hearken a while vnto me.

What newes bring you?

I come with no newes, but to end an old quarrell if it may be.

Betwixt whom?

Betwixt two women, the one is called of some Cathara, the other for her re­ligion, is called Romana; and for her out­ward beauty, Rosamunda.

Rosamund? I haue not heard of many, if any of that name but she that was famous in the dayes of Henry the second.

Sauing your tale: did not that king cause his eldest sonne to be crowned in his life time, thinking it would haue beene an occasion of great quietnesse, as well to him­selfe as to the whole realme?

Graston, Graston in Abridg. who had it from Fabian, doth report so, adding, that as it proued, it was to the vtter destruction of them both.

It is a saying old and true: Man purpo­seth, [Page 221]and God disposeth, therefore it is the part of all faithfull and louing Subiects, to pray, as for themselues, so for their Soue­raigne, that it would please the most migh­ty to protect and direct him in all that hee takes in hand. But fith you haue put mée in minde of Rosamund, I will tell you what verses I read some forty yeares agoe vpon astone crosse (as I remember) not far from Oxford.

I pray you do so much as English them.

Let him that signe of health goeth by Pray and adore it reuerently,

And that thou Rosamund maist rest,

Let him in praying make request.

By your leaue a little.

But were there no verses vpon that Rosa­munds Tombe?

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Some say these:

Which I English thus:

Now heare me.

Well, let vs leaue that Rosamund to him that knoweth best what end she made: Now let me heare what you haue to say of your neighbour Romana.

She, when her anger is kindled, wil call Cathara, Bookish: and Cathara will call her Romish.

About what do they fall out?

About Churching, Crossing, May-Ales, &c.

Why, what saith Cathara for Chur­ching?

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Nothing for it, but something a­gainst it; and to the end you may bee the better acquainted with their iarring, if you will go with mee into my garden, it is ten to one but we shall heare them chatting a­pace.

Where be they when you heare them?

They sit sowing at their owne doores, when the Sunne shineth, and the streets being narrow, and they ouerthwart neighbours may easily heare each other.

Is your garden farre hence?

No, it is here hard by.

Come on let vs go, it should séeme your Garden is néere them, if you may so well heare them: or else they talke very lowd.

When they waxe hote, they are three notes aboue La, and Law too, for­getting that the field hath eyes, & the wood eares.

But your garden is no wood.

No, but there be trees hard by, be­sides the Fence, which is sufficient to keepe them from espying me.

Is there neuer an ancient Matron in your Towne, that laboureth to make them friends?

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Yes, there is a very good Lady, called Madam Make-peace, which taketh great paines to bring them to some quyet, and it is maruell but she will be there anon: but now we are come into the garden, let vs sit downe vnder this barbery tree.

Hu [...]ht, they be at it already.

I maruell Mistresse Romana, you make so much adoe about these matters, doth it offend you, if after my lying in, I come to Church when I see my time, and in such sort as I best like?

Yea marry doth it: why should not you come as your neighbours doe?

So I doe, is there any of them that ride to Church?

No, if they dwell neere, what then?

If they goe on their feete I goe so too.

They go with the midwife and o­ther women, who as they tooke paines with her that trauelled, so do they giue thankes with her.

So they may at home.

And why not in the Church?

So I do.

I heare what you do: you follow your husband to Church, and so go to your [Page 225]owne seate, you go not vp as you be com­manded.

No more do my neighbours: for they should kneele neere to the Communi­on Table, but they (at such times) kneele neere to the Ministers seate in the body of the Church.

It may bee they are appointed to knéele néere to the communion table, if there be a Communion: but you neuer change your seate, no stranger can tell whether you go forth to your thankesgiuing, or no: for you vse not the loose kerchiffe, that men may know what you are.

If God see that my life be not loose, nor the Law require that kerchiffe, why should I vse it? it doth me no good.

What doe you account them loose y ^• vse it: I haue heard that some of you talk much of Thamar, y ^• sate vailed, I would you should know there be as honest women vse it, as refuse it.

I do not deny it, though, as I haue heard you call them flirts that go without it: but wheras you say no man can tell whe­ther I go forth to thanksgiuing or no, I aske you whether it bee fit I should draw stran­gers eyes after me by any vnwonted attire: what are you the better if a stranger know [Page 226]of your Churching?

I thinke I am somewhat the bet­ter, because hee that knoweth it, will say: that woman is churched to day, God giue her a good forth-gate.

And I pray you now should not we pray one for another, as well at other times as then?

Yes, but the weaker our bodyes be, the more we are in danger.

That is one of your follies, you will goe to Church at your Months end, though you faint by the way: or else you will be churched, or rather housed at home▪ your kerchiffe (in which you put such wo­man-hood, and which you put off so soone as you come home) hanging dangling be­hinde, will not keepe the ayre from your monthe.

I cry you mercy I kild your Cu­shion, our kerchiffe is a great mote in your eye: but some of your crue, ere a wéeke be at end, will be washing their buckes, and come skipping ouer the stréets for fire, as if some Maid-Marrian were running in hast to bor­row a glasse.

What tell ye me of Maide-mar­rian, she is none of my crue, that Tomboy and her Fellowes, be encouraged in their [Page 227]fooleries, by such as you are; it is you, and not we, that lend them Glasses, Ribands, Laces, with Cappe and Fethers, and Calles for their faces: You suffer you Daughters to be May-ladies so long, that shortly after you finde their Laces to short: And then, arrant Whore out of my doores, (when it is too late:) But all the while my Lady hath a Veluet Cap on her head, a braue borrowed Gowne on her backe, and a Nosegay in her hand, You be as merry as Pyes, though the name of God be blasphemed, the Sabaoth, prophaned, the Minister contemned, your Daughter defiled: All is well so long as the Ale lasteth.

Haue you seene any of our Daugh­ters in that case?

Did you euer see a Nose in a mans Face?

Madam Make-peace.

How now Neighbours, still iarring? haue you not yet eased your stomacks?

Now there is a third Woman come, that is Madam Make-peace.

Truly this is not well: Chri­stian Woemen should striue to excell in so­brietie, modestie, and mildenesse of spirit; and not in nipping, and quipping, and loud­nesse of tongue: If you should is contend, [Page 228]and brawle with your Husbands as you vs one with an other, then in Salomons iudge­ment, It were better for them to dwell in the wildernesse: Pro. 21.19.12.13.21.9. or to stand in a house that is euer dropping on their heads, then to dwell with you. I pray you agree, for shame a­gree.

Why Maddam? What would you haue me to doe? I haue heard Midwiues bid some Women put on the loose Ker­chiefe, and it be but to honour God, and our Lady; you know that it is no part of Gods honour, he is not honored with Cloutes, he is to be worshiped in Spirit, and trueth: And the best honour that we can giue to the blessed Virgin, the mother of our Sauiour, is to follow her vertues. Mis­tresse Romana which neuer commeth to Church herselfe, is euer snuffing at me, be­cause I frame not myselfe to please her hu­mour, she is euer stumbling at Strawes, and leaping ouer Blockes.

If I stumble but at Strawes, I shall not hurt my Toes, & if I leape ouer Blocks, I shall not breake my shinnes.

You know my meaning; You catch at our Moates, and winke at your owne Beames.

I pray you Madam Make-peace, [Page 229]marke their Moates, when others be mer­ry, they must be mourning; when we fast, then they feast; when they ly-in, there must be no white-sheete, for feare of superstition; their Husbands holy day Cloake will serue the tourne well enough; If we goe to Church vayled, they aske vs if we be asha­med of that we haue done. forgetting that some of their humour will wash Buckes, eare their Child be Christned: If any wo­man follow her that is Churched, then they say, our Lady must haue her traine; If there be a Psalme read, (as they say your Mini­sters do read ouer when a woman is Chur­ched,) then forsooth the Psalme is abused; If the woman make her neighbours a din­ner, they say it pincheth the poorer sort. Moris-dauncers be Rogues, if they goe to the next Towne: Christmas-pies be super­stitious, in y ^e cold winter, when your neigh­bours lacking foode, should be refreshed, and wanting Wood, should be warmed: Then vp to London if not to saue charges, or for some other cause, I know not what. Thus you see their Moates, and Beames.

It were well, if these were your Beames: Kerchiefe, White-sheete, Chur­ching, Dinner, Morris-belles, Christmas-pies, Feastings, and warmings of the Poore; [Page 230]There be other matters that I call Beames, you Whitson-lady, & some of her Maides, were dismayded; your Morris-dauncers, and their followers, prophane the Sabaoth; they haue misused such Ministers as haue reprooued their vices, by cutting off their Horse tayles, breaking their Windowes, plucking vp their Orchard Plants. They poure in as much drinke in one day, as would suffice a temperate man tenne daies: Looke where is most misrule, there with you is the best Christmas kept: If some of you could cutt the throates of all that fa­uour not your customes, then they would keepe, a merry Christmas, then sweare, stare, and a poxe of all Puritanes.

I will stirre your powder-plots, because the more they be stirred, the more they will stinke; yea they will stinke in the nostrills of all such as follow Saint Peters counsaile; Feare God, Honour the King: while Sunne and Moone endureth: It is not your Keir-cheife, Belles, and Pies, that I stand so much vpon: It greeueth me to see how carefull you be for such matters, and how carelesse in comming to Church, in sending your Children to be Catachised, in hauing an eye to them in their meryments, in exhorting them to take heed of going foorth with [Page 231] Dina, to see faces, and fashions, and to be­haue themselues honestly, and soberly, in all companies, and to come home in due time: My Neighbours going to thankes giuing, with fewe, or many, shall not offend me, so that you controule not me for going as I thinke good: And whereas you haue so of­ten tolde me of our washing of Buckes, and comming so soone into the street; it may be some poore bodie wanting helpe, is driuen to do that which is neyther health­full, nor seemly; but you haue no reason to charge all of vs with that which is done by some fewe, and that vpon necessity. But touching these, and such like matters, let Madam Make-peace iudge what is best to be donne.

Content, but first heere me a word or two: As you would not haue me charge all precise women, with that which is donne by some of the poorer sort; so I hope you will not charge all of vs that haue beene brought vp in Poperie, with those powder-plots you speake of, God forbid we should all haue such murdering minds.

If you haue not, it is the better for you, but I pray you Madam speake your minde.

My comming hether was to make [Page 232]you friends, but your iarres be so great, and my braines so weake, that I doubt I shall need helpe, therefore I will goe home now, and to morrow (if God lende life) I will bring our Minister with me.

Whome do you meane, Maister Guide-well?

So indeede I haue heard you haue vsed to call, not only him, but all other of his profession, for you thinke none doe well but Seminaries and Iesuits.

When you come, bring Dame Catha­ra with you, and you shall finde me, and a Kinsman of mine, walking in my Garden.

Sith they be gone, let vs depart also.

Shall I haue none of your Salt for these Women?

If the Minister, and Madam Make-peace can doe them no good, I know not what to say to them: and so fare you well.

And you also.

Now retourneth Madam Make-peace, with the Minister, and Cathara.

God be heere, and peace.

You are welcome.

I haue brought him whome you call Maister Guide-well with me.

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I would you had brought Maister Doe-well also.

He commeth limping after, he is not so quick-footed, you know, as Maister Guide-well.

I would he were, and my Cousen here as quicke-tongued: But what do you call this Man?

We call him Maister Guide-well.

I pray you Maister Guide-well talke with my Cousin a little.

May I be so bold Sir as to craue your name.

My name is Tractable.

If your nature be answerable to your name, I hope I shall not finde you ob­stinate.

Obstinacie is a Companion of Heresie. I may erre, but I would not be an Heretike.

If you may erre, then a Catholike may erre.

An auncient Catholike saide so.

The Catholike you name, was auncient, & learned indéed, but if his owne Bookes be discerned from those which are fathered on him wrongfully (as some hold) you shall finde him differ in many thinges from your selfe, and such other latter super­stitious [Page 234]Catholicks.

Doth any man doubt of any bookes, that beare the name of Saint Au­gustine?

As the learned do hold many of those bookes to bee dubij, M. Perk. in Prob. Pa. 28. such as are to bee doubted of: so do they affirme many of thē to be spurij. plaine bastards, and not onely do they doubt of many bookes that beare his name, but of many that carry the name of ancient Christians: namely Dionysius, and if you list to see what reasons are set downe to proue those works of the heauen­ly Hierachy, &c. not to be framed by Dio­nysius Aerop. read M. Perkins his Prob. I name this Dionysius, Pag. 8.9.10. because I haue heard some find great fault with such as deny those Hierarchies to be his. See P. Mart. on Iud. c. 1. confer. R. & Pag. 485. vvhit. in disp. Pag. 432.

I pray you talke of those mat­ters some other time, I requested you to come hither with mee, to helpe to make peace, betwixt these two woemen, which haue iarred a long while about Churching, and other matters appertaining to woe­men.

If it be woemens matters. I hope you, Madam, being a graue Matron, and not altogether vnlearned, may serue to end this quarrell without me.

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My learning is little, yet this I re­ [...]ember I haue learned of Salomon, Prou. 6 16. that [...]ere be seuē things which God abhorreth: [...]rst, haughty eyes: secondly, a lying tongue: [...]irdly, hands that shedde innocent bloud: [...]urthly, a heart that imagineth wicked en­ [...]erprises: fiftly, feete that bee swift in run­ [...]ing to mischiefe: sixtly, a falfe witnesse that [...]eaketh lies: seuenthly, a rayser of conten­ [...]ions among brethren. Now by the last of [...]hese seuen I gather, that if the Lord abhor [...]uch as raise contentions among brethren, [...]r Christians, which as S. Paul saith, should [...]oue as brethren, then no doubt hee fauou­ [...]eth and blesseth such as labour to make [...]hem friends, according to that saying of [...]ur Sauiour, Blessed are the Peace-makers, Math. 5.9. &c. I therefore beleeuing this to bee true, [...]o for my part exhort you both, if I may be [...]o bold in the presence of our Minister, to [...]emember, that as God is one, so he would haue vs to be one, and not rent in sunder: Ezek. 11.19. He doth promise this as a blessing, to giue [...]his people one heart, and a new spirit. 2, Cor, 13, 11, And the Apostle biddeth vs to be of one minde, and to liue in peace, that the God of loue and peace, may be with vs: But yet you must note, neighbour Romana, that we can­not be of one mind with you, if you do any [Page 236]thing that is contrary to the Lords minde: wee cannot agree with you therein. Esai 56.7. Mat. 21.13. Psal. 100.4. The Lord calleth the place, where his people as­semble to heare his word, to praise him for his mercy, and to call vpon his name, &c. the house of prayer. And we are cōmanded to enter into his gates, with praise, sith then we go to Church, to heare his word, to call vpon his name, to shew our selues thankful for his blessings, &c. What should hold you or any other, from ioyning with vs in such holy exercises? or how can you finde fault with Cathara for going thither with one or two? when your selfe goes thither, neither with few nor many, or with what consci­ence can you finde fault with her, for omit­ting some trifles, when as you omit matters of weight? Do not you thinke you may ere, as well, or rather as much as your kinsman Maister Tractable, or if you thinke you may erre, why do you not come and pray with vs, that it would please God to bring into the way of truth, all such as haue erred and are deceiued?

Haue they such prayers, cozen?

So they say.

But what should I heare if I came among you?

That Christ his Sheepe heare his [Page 237]voyce. Ioh. 11.

I would heare that voyce from his Vicar the Pope.

Did you euer heare him? or do you thinke you shall euer heare him?

No, but I haue heard them that came from him as they say.

If God send his word home to vs, what need wee goe beyond seas to fetch it? why do you iudge so hardly of our Mini­sters, as to think they will not tell you what Christ said.

Why what did he say?

He said, I am the way, the truth, Ioh. 14.6.12.36. and the life, he said, while you haue light beleeue in the light, that you may bee the children of the light: He said, as Moses, lifted vp the Serpent in the wildernesse, 3.14.15. so must the Sonne of man bee lift vp, that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should haue euerlasting life, and I will raise him vp at the last day, This is the will of him that sent me, 6.40. that euery one that seeth the Son and beleeueth in him, should haue euerlasting life, &c.

To my remembrance I heard one Preacher, say, that to see, in that place doth signifie plainely to know, and that the obe­dience of faith is ioyned in the children of God, with that feeling which they haue of y ^e diuine power in Christ.

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I thinke Maddam, Make-peace and you dame Cathara, do spend as much time in reading the Bible, and hearing of Ser­mons, as my cozen and I do in reading Sir Thomas Moores bookes against Frith, and his Vtopia, wherein hee girdeth at such as maintaine Sheepe to deuoure men.

Our Sauiour Christ, said: search the Scriptures for they testify of me, Ioh. 5, 39, and to the Sadduces which deny the resurrection: he said, Mat, 22, 29: yee are deceiued, not knowing th [...] Scriptures.

Saint Luke saith: he opened their (mea­ning his Disciples) vnderstanding, Luk, 24.45, that they might vnderstand the Scriptures, and be­fore in the 27 verse: that he beganne at Mo­ses, and at all the Prophets, and int [...]rpre­ted vnto them (that is to Cleophas and his companion) in all the Scriptures, the things which concerned him: And Saint Iohn saith, Ioh. 20, 31, These things are written that yee might beleeue, that Iesus is the Christ, the Sonne of God, and that in beleeuing yee might haue life through his name: S. Paul saith, Rom, 15, 4, whatsoeuer things are written, are written for our learning.

But Sir Thomas Moores bookes, and the Golden-legend, and such like are written, ergo, for our learning.

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Soft Maister Tractable, you are too forward, for you minor or assumption, if I had bene disposed to make a sillogisme, I would haue done it without your helpe, if the Apostle had meant whatsoeuer was written in any booke, you had concluded well, but he meant not so, for if he had, then we should reade for our learning Huon of Burdeaux, Beuis of Hampton, all bookes of fables, errours, and lies, whatsoeuer, but he speaketh of y ^e holy Scriptures, for immedi­ately after the former words, he hath these, that, we through patience, & comfort of the Scriptures might haue hope. And when hée saith, as it is written, I haue made thee a fa­ther of many Nations, and againe, now it is not written for him only, Gen. 17.4.15.6. that it was impu­ted to him (Abraham) for righteousnesse, but also for vs, &c. he meaneth writtē in Genesis.

And when he writeth to the Corinthians touching the Death and Resurrection of Christ our Redéemer, hee saith, 1. Cor. 15.3.4 that Christ dyed for our sinnes, according to the Scrip­tures, Exo. 12.6, 7▪ Ps. 22, 15.16 17. and that he was buried, and that hee arose the third day, Esa: 34, 53. Zach, 13, 7, according to the Scrip­tures.

And Saint Peter writing to those that had obtained like precious faith, &c. saith: Wee haue also a more sure Propheticall [Page 240]word, to the which you do well that yée take héed as vnto a light that shineth in a darke place, Dan. 9.26. Ionas. 1.17, 2. Pet. 1, 19. vntill the day dawne, and the Day­starre arise in your hearts: not meaning that the words of the Prophets in them­selues were more firme, or of greater credit then the Gospell of Christ, or that voyce of God the Father: Math. 17.5. This is my beloued Sonne in whom I am well pleased, heare him.

Saint Peter saith, hee heard that voyce when hee was with him in the Holy mount: but he saith nothing of these words heare him.

No more doth hee mention his owne words, spoken a little before that voyce came.

What words were those?

Maister, it is good for vs to be here, &c. we may not thinke that Saint Mathew reporteth an vntruth, because Saint Peter spake not all at once, there was a voyce al­so from heauen when Christ was baptized, but then neither Mathew, Mark, nor Luke mentioned those words, heare him. But to returne to the matter we haue in hand, you sée by the places I cited, that for the guiding of our faith, and bringing of vs to the true knowledge of our saluation, purchased by [Page 241]Christ, we are sent to the Scriptures: there­fore. Mistresse Romana, and you Maister Tractable, if you will build surely, build your faith on y ^e holy scriptures, let no mens writings carry you any whither, without this good guid: If you would take as great delight in reading the Bible, as you do in y ^e books you speak of, & pray God heartily, & in al humility of spirit, to giue you such mesure of knowledge, as may suffice to bring true comfort to your soule, and therewithall bee willing and diligent in hearing the Word taught, which is a special ordinary means to plant in you a sound Faith in Christ, our Wisedome, Righteousnesse, Sanctification and Redemption, I doubt not but in short space you should sée how fowly you were de­ceiued, in thinking you might go to heauen by obseruing mens Traditions, stumbling in y ^e darke without the word of God, which the Prophet Dauid calleth a Lantherne to his feet, and a light to his pathes. Ps. 119.105

If I should giue eare vnto you M. Guidewell, and such as you are, would you bring me to any other faith, thē that which is called Catholike?

The summe of the ancient Catho­licke faith to be receiued of all that will bée saued, is set downe in the Créede, called the [Page 242]Apostles Créed, which beginneth thus, I beleeue in God the Father Almighty, &c. And in the other receiued Créed, Whosoe­uer will be saued, &c. Which Créed is read diuers times in our Churches yeerely.

Is there no mention in that anci­ent Creed of praying to saints, of going a Pilgrimage, of worshipping of the Crosse, and Images: of Purgatory, praying on Beades, and such other matters, as are re­ceiued of vs which go to Masse.

Aske your Cozen.

What say you Cozen, are they.

No, what then? shall we not vse Baptisme and the Supper of the Lord, be­cause they are not mentioned in that Creed?

Christ commanded the vse of them, but not of the other: yea rather hee forbiddeth the other, for that they are re­pugnant to that which he commandeth and teacheth.

Most of your side M. Tractable are found to be far more forward in obseruing that which man requireth, then that which the Almighty commandeth: Many, especi­ally the ignorant sort, talke much of the Ca­tholike Faith: but if one should aske them what is the true iustifying faith, how it [Page 243]is wrought in vs, & to what end it is giuen vs, I feare they would make but a simple answere.

If one should aske you Madame, what would you answere?

Maister Guidewell is present, therefore it is fit that he should answere.

Nay pray you let her heare what you can say.

This then, vnder correction, I say, that Faith is a sure perswasion wrought in the hearts of the elect by the Spirit of God, together with his word truly taught, reue­rently heard, and well vnderstood: by the which faith the soule beléeueth, that it re­penting, and stedfastly cleauing vnto Christ her head and Sauiour, hath all her sinnes throughly remitted, and is reconciled to God, to the end shee should bring forth the fruites of Repentance, and in loue doe the workes of a sound faith, to the glory of God, the good example of others, and the as­suring her selfe of her effectuall calling, and so of her election to life euerlasting.

I promise you Madam, I take it to be farre more easie to kisse a Crucifixe, to heare a Masse, to goe to shrift, to say dayly twenty Auo maries, besides De profundis, and to fast the Imber dayes from flesh, hauing [Page 244]other good fare to serue the turne, then to learne and practise this which you haue spoken of faith and workes, I had thought you Protestants had shut good workes cleane out of your doores.

You, and others, are told many things which you should finde false, if you would be one of our hearers: for we teach that, as that sonne which will dwell in his fathers house, which is bought for him, must go the right way vnto it▪ So, though Christ hath bought a resting place for vs in heauen with his bl [...]ud: yet if we will enioy it, wée must walke the right way to it, dye to sin, and lead a new life: 2. Tim. 2, 19. Rom. 22 9. Eph. 2.10. Tit. 2.11.22.13. wee teach with the A­postle, that euery one that calleth on y ^e name of Christ, must depart from iniquity, ab­horre euill, and cleaue to good, for that God hath ordained good workes, that we should walke in them: and that the grace of God, that bringeth saluation to all men, hath ap­peared, and teacheth vs that we should de­ny vngodlinesse, and worldly lustes, and that we should liue soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world, looking for the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of the mighty God, and of our Sauiour Ie­sus Christ: therefore neighbour doe not thinke th [...]t we shut out good workes from [Page 245]the life of a Christian, or that we commend that kinde of dead faith whereof S. Iames speaketh that beléeueth there is a God, but will do no good for Gods sake, doe not con­demne vs before you heare vs.

I haue heard that you Protestants discerne the iust from the vniust by the law of Faith, nnd not of workes, did euer any of the ancient Catholiques so discerne the one of these from the other?

Hearken what Saint Augustinesaith: ‘ Nostra Fides, &c. that is (saith hee) the Catholique faith discerneth the iust from the vniust, not by the law of works, Contra duas epistolas, pelag ad Bonifaciū lib. 3 cap. 5. Abac, 2, but by the very law of faith, because the iust liueth by faith: By the which discer­ning it commeth to passe, that a man li­uing without Man-quelling, without Theft, without False-witnesse, without coueting that is another mans, rendring due honour to his parents, bee so chaste, that hee conteineth from all coupling e­uen in wedlock, be very liberall in giuing Almes, suffering iniuries with all pati­ence, which not onely taketh not away which belongeth to another, but requi­reth not his owne being taken from him; or hauing sold all that he hath, and giuen it to the poore, possesseth nothing of his [Page 246]owne: yet with all these his laudable manners, as it were, if hee hold not the right & Catholique faith towards God, he may depart out of this life to be dam­ned.’

Now there is another which hath indéed good workes out of a right faith, which wor­keth by loue: but yet hee is such a one, as matcheth not the other in manners, hee su­staineth his incontinency with the honesty of marriage, hee rendreth and requireth the debt of carnall copulation, not onely for propagation, 1. Cor. 7. but also for pleasure: so as yet he lyeth with his onely wife, (which thing the Apostle granteth to the married, secun­dum veniam, according to leaue;) yet hee beareth not iniuries patiently, but in his anger is caried with a desire of reuenge; yet so, as being requested, he forgiueth, that he may say: Math. 6. As we forgiue our debters; hée possesseth goods, and of them giueth Almes, not so largely as the other: hee taketh not away y ^t which is another mans: but séeketh to haue his owne, though not at the Com­mon Law, Ecclesiastico iudic [...]o non forens [...] yet by iudgement Ecclesia­sticall.

This man, though hee seeme inferiour to the other in maners: yet for the right Faith which he hath in God, by the which [Page 247]Faith hee liueth, and according vnto which he accuseth himselfe in all his faults, pray­seth God in all good workes, giuing ignomi­nie to himselfe, glory to him, and receiuing from him both pardon of sinnes, and loue of well-doing: ‘hee departeth to bee deli­uered from this life, and to bee receiued into the fellowship of such as are to reigne with Christ: Why, but for Faith? the which, all-be-it it saueth none with­out works (for that is no reprobate faith which worketh by loue;) yet by it also sinnes are loosed, Abac. 2, because the iust liue by faith: but without it, euen those workes which séeme good, are turned into sinne: Rom. 14. For all that is not of faith is sinne.’

Thus farre Saint Augustine, where wee finde him twice citing the Prophet Abacuk, to proue that euen the iust man doth liue by Faith, and that the Catho­lique Faith in his time, and which hee calleth our Faith, discerneth the iust from the vniust, by the Law, not of works, but of Faith.

Yet that faith which which he spea­keth of, worketh by loue.

True, for if it were idle or dead, it could not apprehend Christ, which is our righteousnes, nor assure vs that we are [Page 248]especially called to Saluation through him.

You haue brought all this out of Saint Augustine to moue me to make more account of faith, and to that end belike you would haue me to bee one of your hearers: but if I should frame my selfe, or rather if God should moue mee to hearken to your doctrine, you must haue a care that your life be answerable thereto, otherwise if you preach against swearing, tipling, dicing, whooring, couenant-breaking, vnmerci­fulnesse. &c. and bee stained with any of these fowle spots your selfe, I assure you, though I make some account of Cappe and Surplesse, and such like, yet I shall thinke that you deserue to be depriued rather for being blotted with these deformities, then for omitting these formalities.

All your talke is to mee, and my Cozen, to haue vs come to Church; but you say nothing to Cathara, which hath no minde to be churched, to knéele at Commu­nion, to the Ring in Marriage, nor to haue her child crost after baptisme.

How doe you know what I doe, your selues not beeing seene in the Church of a long time, I beleeue if Tom Piper would play there once in seuen daies, with his pup­lets, we should haue you there weekly.

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How say you by that loe? your good word is ready at all times.

Well, let this prying into one anothers doing passe, and pray God to giue you charitable hearts one towards another, and remember that when the Lord saith, he will giue his people one heart, as you haue heard, he doth promise it a blessing, pray therefore that you may haue an vnity in the verity. We liue here (God be praised) vn­der a Christian magistrate, which no doubt is greeued to see his subiects thus diuided: he would faine haue an vnity, and the same declared by an vniformity, and that in some externall things. In which though hee doe not, yet your Priests seeme to put a kinde of holinesse and religion; and all (as I thinke) to draw you to feede on matters of better quality, that will indeed nourish: But wee see by a fearefull experience, that the more our church yeeldeth to the formal coats, the readier some are to cut our throats, whether wee mourne or pype, you will neither weep nor daunce with vs, God turne your hearts if it be his will, that you may come pray, and praise God with vs.

Truly Mistresse Romana, your Papists are in a drowsie dreame, you thinke you see S. Peter (whom some of you make porter) [Page 250]stand ready to let you into Heauen, for be­ing so willing to destroy those which say with him, speaking of Iesus Christ; there is no other name giuen vnder Heauen, Act, 4.12. where­by we might be saued.

Awake yet at last, and shake off your blindnes, and frowardnesse, least you bring both your selfe, & your Children to confu­sion, they think they do wel in obeying you, but that can not be, vnlesse you obey the Lord, and bid them do that which he alow­eth; you laugh at such counsaile as this, be­cause you take your selues to be wise, & in­deed, as it should seeme, you are wise, some of you, to plotte mischieuous matters, and to keepe it very close; but such are not wise to do good, this is no sanctified wisedome, it is foolishnesse, yea a damnable wicked­nesse in the sight of God.

All your talke is to me Madam, you say nothing to Cathara the Puri­taine.

Though she be precise in some points, yet she prayeth for the King, Queene, and Prince, she giueth good care to the Teacher, she commeth to the com­munion, and I am perswaded there is not any one in the land of those whom you call Puritances, which wish so many of you, [Page 251]as will not conuert, gon with bagge and baggage, which in defence of the Ghospell, and his Maiestie would not loose each drop of his bloud, though some on the Stage haue deryded them, Eastward hoe. saying their smooth skins will make the best Vellam.

Did you see that Play plaide?

No, but I haue heard of it.

Mistresse Romana, you call your Neighbour Puritan: do you know who were the auntient puritanes?

Though I doe not, my Couzen doth: Tell them Couzen.

Saint Augustine in his Booke of Heresies, to one called, Quod vult Deus: which in our tongue, is as much to say, as (What God will) rehearseth some 88. here­sies, whereof the 38. was y ^e heresie of those, who are there called Cathoroi, which we may English Puritans.

Will you call all those Puritans, which are any where called Cathoroi?

If I did, what then?

Then you must call Saint Paule Puritan, and those whom he calleth Cleane, Puritans.

Why so?

In the twentith of the Acts, where [Page 252]Saint Paule sayth, I am cleane from the bloud of all. The Greeke word which he vseth, is Catharos: and when he saith, All things are cleane, to the cleane. He vseth the word Ca­thara, and Catharois: Yet I hope you will not picture him a Puritane.

The Catharoi, named by Saint Augustine, tooke to themselues that name, Superbissune atque odiosissime, A [...]g. de here. sibus ad quod vult deum her. 38. most proudly, and most odiously, as it were for some cleanenes: they admitted no second marriage, they deny repentance, following the Heretike Nouatus. &c.

I know not what those heere in England hold in other matters, but sure I am that some of them that are so called, hauing buried their first Wiues, haue beene married againe, and therefore they are not Puritans in that point.

Of all generations that deserue the name of Puritans, they most deserue it of whome Salomon speaketh, Pro. 30.12. saying, There is a Generation that are pure in their owne conceit, and yet are not washed from their filthinesse. I trust you Neighbour Christi­anus be none of those, yet I meruaile why (touching this publique testimonie of thankefullnes) you will not obey the order appointed, and so keepe your selfe from trot­ting [Page 253]to the three weekes Court to pay fees. You know, or should know, that a woman after Childe-birth, when she first goeth to Church, should kneele in some conuenient place, neere to the Communion-table, (if there be a Communion) otherwise, they vse to kneele neere to the Ministers seate, who is to exhort her to giue hearty thanks to God, and pray, and to the end she should acknowledge helpe to come from God, who is able, yea and doth, when it pleaseth him, defend his from all euill, (which is ment as it seemeth by these words: The Sunne shall not burne thee by day. &c.) he is apoin­ted to reade the hundred twenty and one Psalme: not that any should thinke it was appointed to be read in time of the Lawe, when women offered eyther a Lambe, or two young Pigeons, Leuit 12. on the day of their pu­rification, for that Psalme was made long after such purifiyng began; but to teach wo­men which were wont to call on the Vir­gin; that the same God which kept Dauid, & his company, in time of warre, both day, and night, in heate, and cold, is able to pre­serue them: Also as I saide, for shall we thinke that he which layeth a burthen vpon a mans backe is not hable to take it off. The same God that saide to the Woman, [Page 254] I will greatly increase thy sorrowes, and thy conceptions, Gen. 3.16. in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, &c. preserued the same woman and thousands more in their tra­uell, none of all them euer calling on y ^e bles­sed Virgiue for help, or desiring her to pray to God to help them, yea Dauid saith to God; Thou art he that tooke me out of my mothers wombe.

How know you that none of them called on our Lady?

Because thousands of thē brought forth, ere she did beare Christ.

Is that true cozen?

Yes.

But did not Dauid make that Psalme to assure woemen that are purified, or Churched, that the Sunne shall not burne by day, nor the Moone with her coldnesse hurt them by night:

If woemen were Churched by Moone-shine it might séeme probable, Aug. in Epis. Ioan. tract. 1. that it was made for them chiefly, but none are Churched in the night time, so farre as I know. S. Augustine touching y ^e burning of the Sun, &c. saith, if thou hold charity thou shalt suffer no scandale in Christ, nor in his Church, nor forsake Christ, nor his Church.

On then M. Guide-well.

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After the Psalme and the Lords prayer, there be certaine prayers for y ^e wo­man, y ^e God would saue her, bee vnto her a strong tower from the face of her enimy, and y ^e through Gods help she may both faithful­ly liue and walke in her vocation in this life present, and also may bee partaker of e­uerlasting glory in the life to come through Iesus Christ our Lord.

I do acknowledge that it is the part, not of women onely, but of all other to giue God hearty thankes, when hee hath deliuered them out of any danger, trouble, or whatsoeuer was grieuous vnto them: if a learned and godly Minister, which con­formed not himselfe to some order, set downe touching the wearing of some ap­parell, &c. that is much esteemed and in a manner religiously regarded, by the Ro­mish Salt-peter-men, should bee put from his Ministery and maintenance, and at last finde such fauour at the hands of the higher powers, as to bee restored againe (which were much to bee wished) such a Minister, with his flock, had good cause to be thank­full: In like manner if a Marchant returne safe from the seas, a Souldier from warres, a sicke man from deathes doore: all these, & such like ought to praise God for his mer­cies, [Page 256]but none of all these are appointed to kneel neere the Minister, to heare that Psal. read, or any thanks to be giuē for their de­liuerance, there are indeed in the latter cō ­munion booke generall thanks-giuing for raine, for faire weather, for plenty, for peace and victory, and for deliuerance from the plague, all which are fit and due.

If this were commanded to bee done for those you speake of, I meane the Marchant, the Souldier, and the sicke man, vnto whom you may adde, if you list, such as be crept out of debt, and such as be come out of prison, they had no cause to refuse. I say nothing of the Minister, for if he be ap­pointed to giue thanks for others, I hope he will not forget himselfe.

If he may giue thankes for him­selfe, why not we for our selues?

We may priuately, but sith wee are not allowed to do it publikely, I meane to reade aloude that Psalme, and such pray­ers as the Minister is appointed to reade, we shall do well to be quiet, and to shew our selues obedient, because we are not called to make lawes, but to obey them, it is more fil we should consider what is commanded vs, then what is, or is not commanded to other.

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But the woman that goeth to her thanks-giuing must offer the accustomed offerings, and that me thinkes is somewhat Leuiticall.

Alasse neighbour, that is but some little helpe towards the Ministers mainte­nance. You know in some places, they payd two pence halfe-peny, and a crisom, for both which some Ministers take some sixepence, and so the woemen are not troubled to buy crisoms.

If there should be no crisom, some would thinke all is not well.

Such as be ignorant and super­stitiously addicted to externall things, might be weaned from their fond opinions, if they would come where they might bee taught; you for your part know that the booke saith nothing of crisoms, vailes, comming with many or few, nor of making any dinner. wise and modest woemen will haue a care of their health howsoeuer they come, and if neighbours, that haue mourned with her that trauelled, wil reioyce with her also whē time serueth, and accompany her going forth to declare her thankefulnesse in the Church, which is required in the said book thrre is no cause why any should be offended therewith.

[Page 258]

But these Churching dinners pin­cheth the poore sort, their husbands labour some three-weekes or a month, to get some noble, and that must be spent vpon one din­ner to keepe custome, and because they will do as others do, and so after they haue done groning, their husbands must grone too.

If any forgetting their owne abil­lity, will striue to bee as plentifull, as such as bee farre beyond them in wealth, they de­serue the coat with foure elbowes, whether they dwell in towne or country, in some places the wealthier wiues send the poore woman at such times, in a manner, sufficiēt for that dinner, so that vnlesse they will play the foole, shee need charge herselfe but lit­tle: and whereas Mistris Rosamond hath espied some washing of bucks, and fetching of fier very spéedily, that might bee remedi­ed, if one poore neighbour, at such times es­pecially, would help another, it becommeth woemen to bee modest and shamefast in all their behauiour.

Now let Maister Say-well chide her for not kneeling at Communion.

I had more neede chide you for nicke-naming me, and for not comming thi­ther at all, you know nothing what she doth but by heare-say.

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I heare say, shee despiseth your order.

That is not true, I despise none of the order.

It is euill to despise order, I meane any good order, Beza in the treatise of the true and visible note of the Ca­tholicke Church. some graue and well-lear­ned Diuines say, whosoeuer, where there is place for order, despiseth that order, he de­clareth by this very thing that hee is not of God, and therefore not to be heard.

I take it hee meaneth despising through pride.

But to say something touching kneeling, you know neighbour Cathara that when the Minister deliuereth vnto you the Sacramēt of Christ his body which was crucified for vs, he prayeth thus: The body of our Lord Iesus Christ, which was giuen for thee, preserue thy body and soule into euerlasting life: which is all one (as I take it) with this: The Lord Iesus Christ which suffered for thee in the flesh, preserue, &c. Ioh. 3, 16. Surely hee himselfe saith: So God loued the world, that hee gaue his onely begotten Sonne, to the end that whosoeuer beleeueth in him should not perish but haue life euerlasting: if then the Minister in saying: the body of our Lord Iesus Christ, &c. prayeth that Christ which was giuen to the death for you, preserue your body and [Page 260]soule, &c. may you not say amen to it and giue thankes, kneeling? you know when the Minister saith, Lift vp your hearts, the peo­ple answere not, wee lift them vp to the boord, but to the Lord, neither doth hee afterwards say, glory bee to Christ in forme of bread, but glory bee to God on high.

To receiue a Sacrament is one thing, and to pray is another thing, wee doe not kneele but stand, when the Minister saith: I Baptize thee, &c, That seruice which hath no probable reason why it should bee done, may seeme blind obe­dience.

It shall well beseeme vs (neigh­bour) kneeling before an outward shew, of the reuerend regard we haue of that Sa­crament, and being so straightly required and commanded, by some as make no idoll of the same, to frame our selues to obedi­ence, and enterprete all things to the best. The Minister deliuereth vnto vs from the Lord a pledge of his loue, a Sacrament to confirme our faith in the crucified Christ, on whom the soule feedeth, and to whom the knee boweth, hee being in glory.

The Popish sort when they saw y ^e [Page 261]Sacramēt thought their maker to be really present in forme of bread in a grosse man­ner by meanes of transubstantiation, and so bowed and knocked at the fight therof. And therefore I haue refrained knéeling at that time, not as thinking wee can bow too much, or too oft to God, but because I would bee loath to do any hurt by mine ex­ample.

In time of Popery the Priests taught the people so to do, I meane to wor­ship Christ in forme of bread; but the Mi­nisters of the Gospell teach their charge to worship him sitting in the glory of the Fa­ther. If Catechising and Preaching cannot turne the minds of the wilfull, your sitting or standing cannot do it.

But what say you to the ring gi­uen in solemnizing of Matrimony, and to these words: With this ring I thee Wed, and with my body I thee worship.

That also must haue a fauoura­ble interpretation; I meane wee ought to construe this to the best. That which is there spoken briefly and in few words, if a­any open them paraphrastically vsing more words, containeth thus much.

I haue taken thee before God and this congregation to my wedded wife, I haue [Page 262]promised to keepe thee in sicknesse and in health, to loue and to cherish thee til death, and to the end thou maist haue some token to testifie this my promise made vnto thee, I giue thee this ring, promising to e­steeme of thee as mine owne body, and to honour thee, in bearing patiently with thy weakensse, and in acknowledging that though I be thy matrimoniall head, yet if thou feare God, and beleeue the Gospell, cleauing stedfastly vnto Christ the Mysti­call Head of his Church, [...] Pet. 3.7. thou art, as the Apostle saith, heire together with me of the grace of life.

Why then he might say, if there must needes bee a ring, I giue this ring in token that I take thee to my wedded wife, promising to esteeme thee as mine owne flesh.

Harke in your eare neighbour, when wee women are chosen Clearkes of the conuocation, our voices perhaps would be heard, for setting downe of orders, but vntill then we shall do well to be ordered by our gouernors.

Be it so, but why doth the man en­dow his wife with his goods? In the name of the Father, & of the Son, & of the Holy Ghost, in the name of which Trinity, we are com­manded [Page 263]to be Baptized not Wedded.

That also must bee enterpreted to the best; thus: with all my worldly goods I thee endow, The blessed Trinity appro­uing this my doing.

But why doe you crosse my child, after you haue baptized it, sith Christ gaue you no such commandement.

Why do you aske me this questi­on? (which am commanded to do it) rather then those that commande mee, since you haue no more commandment from our Sa­uiour to aske mee, then them? Truely, but that I see there be many iarres, about these and such like matters, and much trotting to the Courts for the same, I would not stay so long in answering you to these questions: I am perswaded, I am bound to obey my superiours commanding such things as are not contrary to the commandement of the highest power of all. If by desiring to haue my child baptized I declare that I am of this minde, that neither I nor my child ought to be ashamed of Christ crucified, if crossing tend to the same end, it is not con­trary to that end.

But we must not adde any thing to the word of God.

I grant as néedful to saluatiō, but we [Page 264]crosse, not to the end wee would haue any thinke their children cannot bee saued with­out it. If the matter lay in myne owne hands I would not trouble the minds of any that would haue no crossing, but things being as they bee I must crosse chil­dren, or else be crost of men. If a man bee warned to the Court, hee shall pay as much for not crossing, as for committing adulte­ry, I meane the fee: for the proces is all one. I assure you I loue not to empty my poore purse for not stirring my fingers to and fro, vpon the childs fore-head. It may bee the Proctors and Registers will say, I am not amicus curiae, for their profite, in labouring to make you and others, not to be curious in these points, but to fauour your pursses: but I must craue pardon to speake my minde, to those that belong to my charge. And this I say to you neighbour Cathara, and to all that be of your minde: if there be any be­nefit in crossing, your child not hauing it lo­seth it, if there be none, he looseth nothing if hee haue it, if there hee any offence giuen God will be angry, not with you but with the giuer, if it bee taken, you are to blame none but your selfe, if God bee not pleased with crossing, they which commande it, or doe it must looke to bee shent, and not you [Page 265]that cannot let it.

I read of late in a booke called the Abridgement of that booke which the Ministers of Lincolnes diocesse deliuered to his Maiesty, wherein I found not onely the names of many learned men set down, who misliked kneeling at communion, crossing, and surplesse, but also certaine arguments against the said ceremonies, so that you may not blame mee, if I bee scrupulous in these things, which such great Clearkes haue reiected, as nourishing idolatry. There be many things in vse now which some say were not from the beginning.

That Abridgement was set forth as I take it, in the behalfe of such brethren in the Ministery as neuer vsed these cere­monies, to make knowne why they cannot frame themselues to vse them nor subscribe vnto them. You are not to weare the Sur­plesse, nor to crosse after Baptisme; and as touching kneeling at Communion, though in y ^e Abridgemēt, Aquinas, Harding, Bellar. B. Watson, and others are said to make the practise of the Church in the vse of this ge­sture: one of their strongest arguments to iustifie that their Idolatrous conceite of Transubstantiation, because else (say they) the Church should commit idolatry, in knée­ling [Page 266]before the Elements: yet I cannot see why knéeling before the Sacrament, and not bowing to it, but to God, should more be counted Idolatrie, then knéeling before the Minister, as many doe when hee is pray­ing.

I thinke none of the Popish sort, though they kneeled before the Priest, did take him for God, as they did the Sacra­ment.

Whether they tooke him for a God, or a God-maker, I leaue it to them­selues: but this I am perswaded of, that neither your selfe, nor any sound fauourer of the Gospell, do take the Sacrament for God, and therefore your knéeling in the sight of it, and not to it, is no more Idolatri­call then knéeling before the Pulpit in the Church, or the picture of the King at home, bowing neither to Pulpit nor Picture.

The superstitious sort kneeling before Images, & the Sacrament in Chur­ches, or their pictures and Crucifixes in their houses, doe so fasten their eyes vpon them, bow so deuoutly before them, and giue them such a kinde of worship, as ten­deth much to Idolatry, if it bee not so alto­gether.

But wheras you sayd the names [Page 267] [...]f many learned men are set downe in that Abridgement, which would haue these Ce­remonies remoued out of the way as stum­bling-blockes, if I were adicted to them, as one that thought our Church might not stand without them: I may say there bee other learned men, which thinke they may be well vsed of vs, though they were abused in Popery: I might also say, that euen some of those that are named in that Abridge­ment, séeme to some to varry from them­selues, though rightly vnderstood I do think they do not.

What should moue you to say so?

In one place I finde these words: ‘It is much lesse vnlawfull to man to bring significant Ceremonies into Gods worship now, Abidg. p. 33 then it was vnder the Law, for God hath abrogated his owne, (not onely those that were appointed to prefigure Christ, but such also as séemed by their prefiguration to teach morall du­ties) so as now (without great sin) none of them can bee continued in the Church, no not for signification. Of this iudge­ment were the Fathers in the Councell of Nice, and Iustin Martyr, Bullinger, Lauater, Hospinian, Piscator, B. Cooper, [Page 268]B. Westphaleng, and others.’ Do not yo [...] see here, that P. Martir is reckoned amon [...] them which held, that no significant Ce­remonies ought to bee continued in th [...] Church?

Yes, what then?

Marke what is said in anothe [...] place of the same booke: Such men as hau [...] béene let on worke in our Church to defen [...] the vse of it (meaning the Surplesse) both i [...] King Edwards time, and since, and wh [...] were therefore best likely to know the mea­ning of our Church imposing it, haue auou­ched that it is, and ought to bee continue [...] in the Church for signification sake, videli­cet, Peter Martyr, Hooker, D. Covell, Gar­diner, and Hacket, and others. Do not you sée that Martyr is there named among those which hold the Surplesse is to bee continu­ed for signification sake?

If Peter Martyr writing on the Epistle to y ^e Rom. allow of this argument, y ^e signi­ficant Ceremonies of the Law are abroga­ted, ergo, it is not lawfull for man to bring in any significant Ceremonies into Gods worship now: and in his Common places auoucheth, that the Surplesse is to bee con­tinued in the Church for signification sake, he may seeme not to agree with him selfe.

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As simple as I am, mee thinkes I [...]uld reconcile those 2 places thus: In the [...]rst place he denyes that any significant ce­ [...]emonies, especially of the Law, are to bee [...]rought in now as parts of Gods worship, [...]nd in the later he granteth, that the Surples [...]ay continue for significatiō, so it bee rek­ [...]oned for no part of Gods worship, though [...] be worne in his seruice. But howsoeuer [...] be, you see neighbour Cathara, that as [...]ome learned men refuse the Ceremonies, [...] other learned men, which are in authori­ [...]y command the vse: Heb. 1 [...]. [...], neither our Minister [...]or we are bid to obey euery learned man, [...]ut such as haue the ouersight of vs, whose [...]ules and orders wee are to interpret to [...]he best, that so with more quietnesse wee [...]ay obey.

I haue seene the reasons of such [...]s mis-like the Ceremonies, but I doe not [...]emember the reasons of such as speake for [...]hem.

Haue you not heard the latter Canons?

They spake of Dedicating the Childe by the signe of the Crosse. I had thought that had beene done by baptisme.

The Crosse is of great antiquity.

The brazen Serpent, In [...] which be­ing [Page 270]lifted vp, as Saint Augustine saith, did figure the death of the Lord vpon the crosse) was of greater.

I speake not of things before the in­carnation of Christ: do not you read those words in the New Testament: 1. Cor. 18.23 Whosoeuer will follow me, let him forsake himselfe and take vp his Crosse and follow me. And these words: The preaching of the Crosse is to them that pe­rish, Gal. 6.14. foolishnesse. Eph. 2: 16, And these words: God forbid that I should reioyce, but in the crosse of our Lord Iesus Christ. And these also: That hee might reconcile both vnto God in one body by his Crosse.

Yes, wee haue read all this, and some of vs haue read an Homily also, that beareth the name of Saint Chrysostome, in praise of the Crosse: in which the Crosse is named 53 times together: I will not recite all, but giue you a taste of them, as it is tur­ned into Latine by Tilman a Monke.

• 1 Cruxspes Christianorum,
• 2 Cruxresurrectio Mortuorum,
• 3 Crux dux Coecorum,
• 11 Crux victoria aduersus Diabolum,
• 23 Crux custos infantium,
• 24 Crux caput virorum,
• 26 Crux lumen in tenebris sedentium,
• 51 Crux panis esurientium,
• 52 Crux fons sitientium,
• 53 Crux velamen nudorum.
• [Page 271] The Crosse the hope of the Christians,
• The resurrection of the Dead,
• The guide of the blinde,
• Victory against the Diuell,
• The keeper of Infants,
• The head of men,
• The light of such as sit in darknesse,
• The bread of the hungry,
• The wel-spring for the thirsty.
• The couering for the naked.

If you apply this and the rest, which is found there, to the bare signe of the Crosse, and not to Christ, and his suffering on the Crosse, you will haue Saint Chrysostome to robbe Christ of his glory: for all these things belong to Him. And so likewise these words of our Sauiour, and of S. Paul, in which wee finde the word Crosse: If we thinke they meant the bare signe, or a crosse made of Wood, Stone, Copper, or whatso­euer, we shall be found grosse interpreters. For to take vp our Crosse, is to prepare our selues against persecutions and affliction, and to beare it patiently when it commeth: and the other places are to bee vnderstood of Christ crucified: for to preach that saluation is to besought in Iesus Christ, which was fastened to a Crosse with nayles, is foolish­nesse to them that perish through want of [Page 272]faith in him. If was Christs passion on the Crosse, wherin y ^e Apostle reioiced. Through an earnest meditation thereon, the world was crucified to him, and hee to the world. Christ hath recōciled such as beléeue in him, both Iewes and Gentiles, by his Crosse, that is, by his sufferings.

You say sufferings; Saint Paul saith Crosse.

If you will vse words without their sence then the Crosse hath bloud.

How so?

The Apostle to the Colossians saith: Col, 1.19.20. That it pleased (meaning the Father) that in him (meaning the Sonne) should al fulnesse dwel, [...]ee Rollocke how hee ex­pou [...] deth. and by him to recocile all things vnto himselfe, and to set at peace through the bloud of his crosse, by the Son, both the things in earth and the things in heauen.

Why doe you say it pleased him? (meaning the Father) Erasmus hath, compla­citum est Patri: it pleased the Father.

I said (meaning the Father) be­cause the word (Father) is not in the Greek, and Erasmus sets it into the text, to make it more plaine, euen as your vulgar edition vnto the words (all fulnesse) addeth, diuini­tatis, of God-head, Col. 1.19. which is not in the 19. [Page 273]verse in the originall, Col. 29. [...] & Aug per sanguinem crucis, &c. Mundata sumt omnia peccat [...] ipsorum in epi. B. Ioan, tra 1. though it bee in the 9 verse of the second Chapter. But as that Latine Edition called Vulgata hath in the verse 19 added Diuinitatis, God-head: so in the 20 verse, I meane of the 1. Chapter, it doth not set downe as Erasmus doth the Latine of [...], by the Sonne. But to re­turne to the words: Through the bloud of his Crosse, if I should presse you with those worde, and say it is a proper speech, as you vrge the word Crosse in the places you ci­ted, then the Crosse hath bloud, but it is no proper spéech.

The Apostle meaneth Christ his bloud shed on the Crosse.

True, but the words are you fee, [...], by the bloud of his Crosse, is set downe more plainly in these words: Rom. 3.2 [...]. Whom (speaking of Christ) he hath set forth to bee a reconciliation through faith in his bloud, &c.

Much more then being now iustified by his bloud, Rom 5.9. &c.

By whom we haue redemption through his bloud, &c. Eph. 17. Heb. 9.14.

Vnto him that loued vs, and washed vs from our sinnes in his bloud. Ioh. 1.7. Reu. 1. [...]

You sée then that hee calleth the bloud of [Page 274]Christ, the bloud of his Crosse, Col. 1.20. speaking-more properly, verse 14. And so no doubt but y ^e same Apostle in saying that he reioiceth in the crosse of our Lord Iesus Christ, meant his sufferings, and also the force, effects, and merits of his Death and Passion, with all the Comforts, truits, and promises which we receiue thereby, as it is affirmed by the reuerend and learned in the Canons. Can. 30.

Howsoeuer the word Crosse is to be taken in any of the places cited by my cozen, I see no reason why I may not haue the signe of the crosse to put mee in minde of him that died for me: Why haue you the picture of the King, Queene and Prince in your house, but to put you in minde to pray for them? If you haue no Crosse to bring Christ his death to your remēbrance, then haue you nothing.

Yes, Mistresse Romana, we haue the History of his passion, and the Sacra­ment of his body and bloud: after the gi­uing whereof our Sauiour Christ said to those that sate at the Table: Do this in re­membrance of me: so we do that to remem­ber his loue towards vs, which hee biddeth vs to do. But who bid you make Crosses, or who brought the first Crosse into Eng­land, [Page 275]I cannot tell.

Can not you tell Cozen?

Some write, that the first Altar, Polycro, lib. 5 cap. 12. [...]erk proble. pag. 38. & 84. and the first Crosse were erected in Eng­land by Oswald, in the place of the battaile agaiust Cadwall in the yeare 635.

Well, whosoeuer first brought it hither, it mattereth not, I see the word Crosse is much vsed in the New Testament: which word so often repeated, together with the History of his passion, and our Communicating, may serue to bring Christ his Passion into our remembrance, though we had no signe: yet Maister Guidewell, and many others besides him, doe vse that signe after the childe is baptized, not condem­ning others, which say they cannot doe it with a quyet mind, no more then he would haue them to condemne him: what mo­ueth him to doe it, hee knoweth best him­selfe.

There bee thrée causes that moue me to vse that signing.

The one is you are loth to loose your maintenance. You had rather giue an Almes, then take one.

Indeed it is a more blessed thing to giue then to receiue: but you get no fée of me, if you will bee the Procter to tell my [Page 276]tale before you be required.

First, I finde that ancient Christians being godly men, and great Clearks, did al­low the vse of it in Baptisme.

Secondly, Canon. 30. such as command it say it is no part of the substance of that Sacra­ment, and that being vsed afterwards (mea­ning after the Infant is fully and perfect­ly baptized) it doth neither adde any thing to the vertue or perfection of Bap­tisme, nor beeing omitted, doth detract any thing from the effect and substance of it.

The third cause is, I sée there bee many of the superstitious Catholikes (for I will kéepe the name of the sincerer Catholickes, vnto our selues) so addicted to shewes and signes (though they say, wee féede on bare signes) that they bee ready to iudge all such as crosse not, enemies to the Crosse of Christ: and therefore, for my part, I choose rather to vse it, (the higher powers that command it, not attributing such power vnto it as our Aduersaries doe) then to giue any occasion to the Recusants to say the Gouernours would haue vs come to Church, and when we come there, wee shall sée such as should exhort vs to obey in matters of substance, vnwilling to yeelde to such things as themselues call [Page 277]shewes and shadowes.

Indeed it is good we take heed we put no stumbling-blockes in the way of such as bee backward▪ But must wee not haue care also that we offend not such as be forward?

Wee must not despise the least of the faithfull, Math. 18.10. If a Christi­an Prince command me to do that where­with some weake brother being a Subiect is offended, because hee thinketh God is of­fended with it, what should I doe in this case, I cannot satisfie both? If I bee wil­ling to obey my Prince, my weake brother is offended: If I refraine because of the the Subiect, my Prince is not obeyed. Who seeth not that these things are trou­blesome?

You know wee must so obey our Prince, that we put no occasion of falling, or a stumbling-blocke, as the Apostle saith, before our brother. Rom. 14.13.

If to crosse be a stumbling-block, and I leape ouer it, and saue my shin, and another stumble at it, and breake his shins, can I helpe it? it is not a blocke of my put­ting.

Though it be not, yet perhaps some will say you should set your shoulders to [Page 278]it, to help to remoue it, because it may hurt others, though not your selues.

Anumber of men farre stronger then I, haue béene heauing at it a long time, but I sée they heaue against the Hill: others stronger then they, by reason they haue authority, lift against them: as some thinke the vse of these things will driue backe, so others thinke it will draw on. Experience (I thinke) in time, will tell whose iudgment is best. Though some stū ­ble at Christ, as the vnbeléeuers doe, yet Christ is the true Messias; and if any through weaknes, or howsoeuer, stumble at the signe of the Crosse, yet it must néeds be granted, it is appoynted to be vsed as a sign of that crosse, whereto the true Christ, and not any counterfeit was fastened.

Was there euer any counterfeite Christ?

Cooper & Fabian are set down by Grafton in his Abridgement, as testifying that there was a Councell holden at Ox­ford of the Bishops, in the first yeare of Henry the third, 1220, where a certaine man was condemned, which taught that hée was Iesus Christ. And to confirme y ^e same, hee shewed the token of wounds in his Hands, Body, and Fée; and was there­fore [Page 279]condemned, and crucified on a Crosse at Atterbury, besides Banbury-hill, till he dyed.

I regard not the signe of that crosse whereon that counterfeite died. When I crosse me, I think on Christ, & his Crosse; & as I am in loue with that crosse, so I tell you true, I cannot be weaned from any ceremo­ny that is in request with vs.

I feare mee you are more carefull for shales then kirnels, for that which fee­deth your sences, then that which feedeth your soules; and more in loue with fables, and Frierly fictions, then with the doctrine of saluation. Your teachers are no niggards of their old-wiues-fables. I speake not now of crosses, but of other matters.

Can you shew vs any fable, or fai­ned story that is allowed of our Teachers? if you can let vs heare it.

Maister Harding in his answere to B. Iewels chalenge, to proue priuate Masse, telleth this story out of Amphilochius, which seemeth to me scarce currant.

The holy Bishops, Basill, besought God ‘in his prayers he would giue him Grace, Wisdome, and vnderstanding, so as hee might offer the sacrifice of Christs bloud­shedding, proprijs sermonibus, with praiers [Page 280]and Seruice of his own making, and that the better to atchieue that purpose, y ^e Ho­ly Ghost might come vpon him.’

‘ After sixe dayes he was in a traunce, for cause of the Holy Ghosts comming; when the seuenth day was come, he began to minister vnto God, that is, he sayd Masse euery day.’

‘After a certaine time thus spent, tho­rough faith and prayer, he began to write with his own hand, Mysteria Ministratio­nis, the Masse, or the seruice of the Masse.’

Whome the heauē must contain, &c. Act.On a night our Lord came vnto him in a vi­sion, with the Apostles, and layd bread to be consecrated on the Holy Altar, and stir­ring vp Basil saide vnto him, Secundum postulationē tuam repleatur os tuum laude, &c. According to thy request, let thy mouth be filled with praise, that with thine owne words thou maist offer vp to me Sacrifice▪ He not able to abide the vision with his eyes, rose vp with trembling, and going to the holy Altar, began to say that he had written in paper thus.

Repleatur os meum laude et hymn̄u dicat gloriae tuae. Domine Deus creasti nos et ad­duxisti in vitam hanc et caeteras orationes sancti ministerij. Let my month be filled with praise, to vtter an himne to thy glory, [Page 281]Lord God which hast created vs, and brougt vs into this life, and so foorth, the other prayers of the Masse, Et post finem orationum exaltauit panem sine intermissi­one orans et dicens. Respice domine Iesu Christe. &c. After that he had don the pray­ers of consecration, and lifted vp the bread praying continually, and saying, looke vp­on vs Lord Iesus Christ out of thy holy Tabernacle, and come to sanctifie vs that fittest aboue with thy Father, and art here presently with vs invisible, vouchsafe with thy mightie hand to deliuer to vs, and by vs to all thy people, Sancta Sanctis the holy things to the holy. The people answered; One holy, one Lord Iesus Christ, with the Holy Ghost, amen.

After this, Maister Harding goeth ou say­ing, now let vs consider what followeth pertaining most to our purpose, Et diuidens panem in tres partes, vnam quidem cōmuni­cauit timore multo; alteram autem reserua­uit consepelire secum; tertiam verò impo­suit columbae aureae quae pependit super Altare. He diuideth the bread into 3. parts, of which he receiued one at his communion, with great feare, & reuerence; the other he reserued, that it might be buried with him, & the 3. he caused to be put into a golden Pix, [Page 282]that was hanging vp ouer the Altar made in forme and shape of a Doue. Out of the same Amphilochian Story, M. Harding setteth downe this also, that one Eubolus and others the cheife of the Clergy, stan­ding before the gate of the Church, whiles this was in doing, saw lights within the Church & men cloathed in white, & heard a voice of people glorifying God, &c. what say you to this dreame, M. Tractable?

Do you call it a dreame? Verily Doctor Harding thought that this Story would make Ma. Iewell and his consacra­menta, [...]es to stagger.

If you, and others of your side would reade, and in reading note well, what that reuerend and learned Byshop hath an­swered to D. Harding, you would leaue stag­gering, and go more stedfastly in the paths of the Gospell.

It may be if I come to Church I will reade some of his answers at leasure. But I would see what you your selfe haue to say to this story, if you remember not his answere.

In truth it is so long since I read that answere, that I not hauing now that book, remember not what he saith to it. For mine owne part, I maruaile, if the Pope that [Page 283]liued in Saint Basils time were Christs Vi­car, and guided by his Spirit, that he did not appoint such prayers and seruice to be vsed in the offering of that Sacrament (so you call it) as all men that tooke him for su­preame head of the Church should be con­tent with.

No doubt but he did.

If he did so, and S. Basill tooke him to be such a one as I said, I wonder hee should not content himselfe with that forme of seruice which the Pope allowed, but would offer with prayers of his owne making. If the Holy Ghost had taught the Pope before, what forme of prayer should be vsed, what needed the Holy Ghost to be wisht for againe, to teach S. Basil how to pray in that seruice?

Answere him cozen Tractable.

Though hee misliked not the set prayers, yet he was desirous to vse his own.

Why should he desire that, if the prayers appointed were sound and suffici­ent? or if the Holy Ghost did teach him to pray, how can they be called prayers of his owne making? Our Sauiour hath taught vs to pray, Our Father which art in heauen, &c. Shall we call this a prayer of our owne making?

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Answere him cozen, sticke to him cozen.

What a cozening kéepe you? I will answere him when I see my time. Though y ^e Holy Ghost taught Saint Basil, yet they might bee called his prayers, be­cause it is said hee wrote them with his owne hand.

The the Pater noster or Lords Prayer shall bee called Saint Matthews, be­cause hee wrote it with his owne hand, for ought we know to the contrary.

Quicke cozen, quicke,

Your tongue is so quick in trou­bling me, that it puts me out of my answere, if you haue any thing else that you maruell at in this Story say on, for I will stand no longer about this.

Sith it is called a vision, a man might aske this question, in what bodies our Sauiour and his Apostles appeared, whether the Apostles in their own bodies, I meane such as they had when they liued, and were in Saint Basils time very dust, or some other formes of bodies taken for that time, or some like their owne, though no resurrection of their owne? Also what néed they bring bread with them to lay on the table, as if S. Basil were vnprouided? More­ouer [Page 285]if he knew Christ to be there with his Apostles, why doth he say hee was there in­uisibly, or if hee were there, why doth hee pray to him as sitting aboue w ^t his Father. None in the Scripture euer confest him in respect of his Man-hood to sit at the right hand of God in glory, while hee was heere present in body: For when he said: No man ascendeth, &c. but he that descendeth, &c. the Sonne of man, which is in heauen. Ioh. 3.13. it is spoken in respect of the vnion of his God-head with his Man-hood. After his Ascention, Steuen said: He saw (not with bodily eyes, saith Augustine, De Can. verae vitae cap. 42.) the heauens open and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God, Act. 7.56. But hee said not I sée him there & heere too, or he is there visibly & heere in­uisibly, Paul saith, Christ was seene of him, 1. Cor. 15.8. but he telleth how, hee saw a light, Act. 22. and so did others which heard not the voyce. If you reade Augustine on Iohn you shall finde him affirming that the Church had his bodily presence but few daies: Now saith hee, Aug. in Ioh. 12. tract. 50. Wee hold him by faith, hee is gone touching his bodily presence, but as touching Spirit and Ma­iesty hee is with his Church to the worlds end.

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I haue heard this vrged Plus mi­lies, more then a thousand times: Christ as he is God, may be where he will, and how he will. If we goe forward with this, wee shall make no end of iarring; what haue you els to say?

I wonder that if Eubolus and his company were at the Church doore in the night, would not goe in seing light, and one at Masse. Many things Maister Tractable haue beene seene in visions, and dreames, and yet no such going from place to place. It should seeme by these words, and stirring vp Basil, that he was a sleepe till he was stirred. If after this presently he went to the Altare, because he could not endure the vision, then he remoued ere the vision was ended. So did not such as are saide in the Scriptures to haue seene visions. Act. 10.1 [...] 17.18.19.20.21▪ Peter went not down to the men which were sent to him frō Cornelius, till the vision was en­ded. But to let this passe, I pray you M. Tractable, tell mee how you would English Mysteria ministrationis?

How should I English it, but the Ministers of the Ministration.

If any of our side should English it the seruice of the cōmunion, some of your side would call them false translators.

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I like not these wordes on your side and our side: I would wee might once stand all on one side.

Madam you know the Church is a body: and a body hath two sides; if it haue three, then indeed it would be a Monster.

Two sides do well become a natu­rall body, and they doe well agrée without grieuing each other. But two sides do as ill become a mysticall body, as two heads do a naturall body. One head, one heart, one mouth, one minde, one sence, one side, doth best become the Church vniuersall.

I pray you peace a little.

Peace as much as you will, so it go with piety.

What moued you Maister Guide-well, to aske how I would English mysteria ministrationis.

Because I would see whether you would haue englished it, the Masse, or the seruice of the Masse, as Maister Harding doth, who also englisheth these words, Caeteras orationes Sancti Minesterij, The o­ther Prayers of the Masse, which you know should be translated, the other Prayers of the holy Minestery, and afterward he tran­slateth Post sinem orationum, after he had done the Prayers of consecration. But you [Page 288]know it should be englished, if you will haue it word for word according to the La­tin, after the end of the prayers, but if you will haue those words translated as Doctor Harding doth, thē after cōsecration he lifted vp bread, which agreeth not with transub­stantiation.

Answere to that Couzen.

Amphilochius might meane by bread, the forme and shew of bread, as also when he saide, diuiding the bread in three partes.

Is that your best answere Couzen? a shew of bread without substance, no meale no flower, no do we baked remayning?

Though you do, yet there be o­thers that do not. Christians should take delight in the word of God, which was more sweet to Dauid then the Hony­combe.

Satisfie her minde this once, and it be but to let her see what weake founda­tions they build on.

Doctor Harding in the foresaide answere speaketh of a Gospell that should be written in the Hebrew by Saint Mathew, in which it is reported that when our Lord had giuen his Shroude to the Bishops Ser­uant, he went to Iames and appeared vnto [Page 289]him. For Iames had made an oath that he would not eate bread from that hower he dranke of the cup of the Lord, vntill he saw him raysed from the dead. It followeth a litle after, Afferte, ait Dominus, mensam et pa­nem. &c. Bring the table, and set on bread, (quoth our Lord:) And by and by it is ad­ded, he tooke bread & blessed it, and brake it, and gaue it to Iames the iust, and sayd vn­to him, my brother eate bread, for the sonne of man is risen againe from the dead. No man can doubt (sayth Maister Harding) but this was the Sacrament.

To what end doth he bring in this?

To shew that the Communion was receiued vnder one kinde, as appeareth by his words following: Fol 42. And Wine was there none giuen: for any thing that may be gathered. For it is not likely Saint Iames had wine in his house: then (sayth he) for as much as Egesippus who was not long after him, witnesseth of him, that he neuer drunke Wine but at our Lords Supper; Now tell me Maister Tractable, whether this Storie goe for currant among you or no?

Why should it not be currant? doe you thinke there is no Gospell of Saint Mathew, extant in the Hebrew?

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I haue the Gospell of Saint Mat­thew in Hebrew, with Munsters Annotati­ons, dedicated by him to King Henry the 8. From the which if that other swarue, I dare not call it currant. Did you euer reade in any of the Euangelists, that Christ gaue a­way his Shroud?

No indeed.

Do not you finde in S. Matthew, that our Sauiour being risen from the dead, Mat. 28.1.9.10.16. met with Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, and after that with the eleuen Disci­ples, which were appointed to goe into Ga­lilee, that they might see him there? Mark. 1 [...].9. Doth not S. Marke say, that the first he met with was Mary Magdalene? I know not whom he should meane by the Bishops man, vnlesse it were Caipha's man. For Caiphas (saith Saint Iohn) was high Priest that same yeare. Ioh, 18.13. If hee ment by that Bishop Saint Iames, he calleth him so in some future respect, for that hee was called so afterwards, and not as being Byshop when Christ rose. If he were, what was Peter? but whosoeuer they meane by that Byshop, I see no cause why I should not beleeue Saint Iohn before all those that write of any such giuing of the Shroud.

Why what saith he?

Hee saith that the other Disciple [Page 291](meaning himselfe) did out-run Peter, Ioh. 20.4.5.6. and came first to the Sepulcher, and stooping downe, saw the linnen cloathes lye, and the kerchieffe that was about his head, not ly­ing with the linnen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by it selfe: and what lin­nen cloathes were these? were they not the same wherein Ioseph of Arimathea, Ioh. 19.38.39.40. and Nico­demus wrapped his body? If you will say Iesus returned to fetch them: you make him forgetfull, and like a traueller, who hauing left his cloake in his chamber, after he hath gone a little way, missing it, returneth to fetch it. What thinke you of this Maister Tractable? doth that tale of giuing his Shroud to the Byshops man agree with that which Saint Iohn saith of himselfe, and Pe­ter finding the linnen cloathes in the Sepul­cher?

There seemeth to bee some iarre in these two Stories, but what haue you else to say of it?

This. If you will haue it taken for a true Story, thē our Sauiour said not, bring an Altar, but bring the Table; which if hee did, what should moue Maister Harding in his Confutation, to call our Communion Table an oister-boord? Againe, if the Lord bid him eate bread after hee had bles­sed [Page 292]it, why doe you say the substance of bread is gone after the blessing? Moreouer if Saint Iames dranke wine at our Lords Supper, why do you say it is bloud? Why doe you deny that Christ by a figuratiue speech called it his bloud? Aug▪ de Eecl▪ dogm ca, 75. Verily Saint Au­stin saith, Vinum fuit in redemptionis nostrae my­sterio: there was wine in the mystery of our redemption.

If my cozen list to acquaint him­selfe with your opinion in this, hee may at his leasure▪ if hee thinke good, reade that which your side haue written thereof at large, for I haue not read their bookes: yet some of my friends. haue named some of your Writers vnto me. I for my part, if my cozen would not frowne vpon mee, would gladly heare one more of these Sto­ries which you make so light of.

I thinke you had rather heare one of these, then tenne Sermons.

You may be sure of that.

Seeing you are desirous to haue one more, you shall, to the end you may see, with what fictions, called by some narrations, the Fryers did vse to feede withall.

The words as I finde be these.

THere was (saith one of them) a woman, that was deuoute in our Lady seruice, and many times for our Lady sake, and loue that shee had to her; gaue away her best cloathes, and w ent in the worst her selfe: So it happed on a Candlemasse day, she would faine haue gone to the Church, but for she was not honestly arrayed, she durst not for shame, for shee had done away all her best cloathes. Then was she forry shee should be without Masse that day; wherefore shee went into a Chappell that was nigh her place, and there she was in her prayers, and as she prayed she fell a sleepe, and then she thought shee was in a faire Church and saw a great company of maidens comming to the Church, and one was passing all other for faire, and went to fore with a crowne on her head, and she kneeled downe and all the other by her. Then comes there one with a great burthen of Candles, and first he gaue the maiden a candle that had the crowne on her head, and so after all the other maidens that were in the Church, and then hee came to this woman, and gaue her a candle. Then [...]was shee glad, and then shee saw a Priest and two Deacons, with two [Page 294]Serges brenning in their hands, going to­wards the Altar reuershed to go to Masse. And as shee thought, Christ was the Priest, and the two Deacons was Laurence and Ʋincent, that beare the Serges, and two yong men beganne the Masse with a so­lemne note, Then when the Gospell was read the Queene of heauen offered her candle first of all to the Priest, and then all other after her: and when all had offered, the Priest abode after this woman to come and offer her candle. Then the Queene sent after her, and bad shee should come, the Priest abideth her, and the messenger bad her come, and shee said, nay shee would not leaue her candle, but keepe it for a great deuotion. Then sent the Queene another messenger, and bad him say to her that shee was vncourteous, for to tarry the Priest so long; and said, but she would come with a good will and offer it: take it from her, and yet shee said nay, then would the messenger haue taken it from: but shee held it fast, & so betwixt them two, the Serge brake in the middst, and halfe the messenger had, & halfe the woman had with her, and so in this wrestling this woman woke out of her sleepe, and had halfe the Serge in her hand, and then shee thanked God and our Lady [Page 295]heartely that she was not without a Gospell that day, and offered her candle to holy Church Et pro maximis reliquijs reseruatur it is reserued for a great relique: And thus you haue the whole fable, in the same words that I found it set forth withall.

Call it a fable or what you list. If I had that péece of candle, I would burne some of it euery Candlemasse day so long as it lasted.

Would you wish for such a sub­stantiall Relique, as was giuen in a dreame? what if your Church could not spare it? but if you had it: to what end would you burne it that day?

In the honour of our Lady, who offered her candle the same day she was pu­rified.

Who told you so?

Do not you heare that the wo­man did dreame that the Quéene of heauen did offer her candle first?

It is a weake building Mistris Ro. that is built on a drowsy dreame.

I hope you reiect not all dreames. Ioseph the sonne of Iacob dreamed, so did another Ioseph long after him, I meane y ^e Ioseph to whom the blessed Virgin was es­poused.

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These dreames are found in the Canonicall Scriptures, and the things that appeared, or were foretold in those dreames comming to passe, and nothing required in them contrary to the word, do warrant vs that they were not illusions, nor rose of any naturall cause, &c. but at the will and plea­sure of God.

So might this Womans dreame come from the same cause.

Did you euer heare of any that dreamed, they were eating, drinking, figh­ting, riding, &c. that when they awaked, found in their hands bread, drinke, a wea­pon, a boote or any such matter, vnlesse they had it in their hands when they fell on sleepe, or rose vp and tooke it? But to let this goe, I wonder you or any other should be so fond to thinke, that the blessed Virgin enioying the true light, is honoured with lights of mans making; she requireth no such honour. The Angell bad Iohn wor­ship God; and our Sauiour sayth not that he is worshipped with setting vp of Candles, but in spirit, and trueth, that is, with a true Spirituall worship. In a word, we are not bid to make lights for God, or the Virgin, but while we haue light to beleeue in the light: But I pray you tell me, do you know how [Page 384]this carrying of Candles on that day came vp first?

No not I, it may be my Cozen Trac­table doth. If you doe Couzen I pray let vs heare it.

I am wearie now with sitting here so long; If this company will come againe to morrow, you shall heare what I haue read of it.

If it. please you Madam let vs returne to morrow.

If it please God I will, not so much to heare this, as some other talke that you may fall into.

Howe where be you?

Who is there?

Here is a Fryer.

You are welcome.

Why, because I come in y ^e name of a Fryer? I thinke y ^e answere (here is a Fry­er) so much vsed of those y ^t knock at mens dores, did rise of this, that of all other men, Fryers were most welcome in times past.

I thinke they were as welcome then as those which call themselues Iesuits haue of late been welcom to Recusants, but I see no reason why they should be so welcome now, seeing it is very likely they haue had [Page 298]a strong hand in this monstrous intended murder, whereby some of their Schollers are fallen into the pit they made for others. Their plot was by powder, and powder, to put them in minde of their sinne, and to forewarne them of their fall (as it is said) scarred some of them in drying of it. And as Senacherib was slaine by his owne sonnes, so these by their owne plots wrought their owne woe. When there is some speciall matter to bee noted, the holy Ghost, to the end of certaine verses, addeth this word Se­lah: the which word some Hebrew readers say, is as much as, O rem notatu dignam, e­leuetur hic vox, O matter worthy to bee noted, let the voyce be lifted vp here. This word is vsed thrise in the 140 Psalm. They haue sharpened their tongues like a Ser­pent, Adders poyson is vnder their lippes. Selah.

The proud haue laid a snare for mee, and spred a not with cords in my path way, and set grins for me, Selah.

Let not the wicked haue his desire, ô Lord, performe not his wicked thought, least hee be proud, Selah.

Blessed bee God, which hath deliuered our King and many others, out of cruell Faux his bloudy iaw, not suffering him to [Page 299]performe that wicked thought, but marred all his mischeuous matches.

Amen, Amen. Truly mistresse Ro­mana me thinkes if there were nothing else to draw you from your Popish superstition: that same inherent cruelty, which is in those that fauour it, against such as will not play with puppets, as they themselues do, might driue you out of that bloudy Babylon, and cause you to ioyne with such as embrace the glorious Gospell of Iesus Christ sin­cerely.

You would haue my cozen and me to go from the Catholicks. Was not S. Au­stin a Catholicke, and were not all those, a­gainst whom he wrote, Heretickes?

What if it were so? can you proue that we hold any opinions that S. Austin sodainly confuted by the Scriptures? do you not know that the summe of the auncient Catholicke faith, so much as is needfull to saluation, is contained in that Creed, Qui­cunque vult, &c. Whosoeuer will bee saued, &c. and that this Creed is read oft-times in our parish Churches yearely?

Come cozen come, let vs sit down I pray you, and tell vs how Candlemasse day came vp, for that was your promise ye­sternight.

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Iacobus Passanantius in his additi­ons to the Commentaries of Thomas Valois and Nicholas Treuet, on the sixth booke of S Austin de Ciuitate Dei, cap. 7.

Stay a little. Tell mee the first word, and the last of that Chapter, that I may know whether you haue read it your selfe, or had it at the second hand.

Doth euery one that readeth a Chapter, remember at all times the first and last word of it? I promise you I doe not: yet I remember the first word of that Chapter is Reuocatur, and the last Obscoe­nitas.

On Cozen, this is but to trouble your tale.

This Iacobus sheweth out of Ouid, that af­ter Pluto the God of Hell (beeing wounded with that dart which had the golden point) had by violence taken away Proserpina, the daughter of the Goddesse Ceres, and placing her with him in his blacke Chariot, had brought her to Hell, and made her Queene of the same. Her mother Ceres who could not stay Pluto with her out-cryes, and pi­teous moane, sought her Daughter euery where day and night with lights and fire-brandes, which shee had in Mount Etna.

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By occasion of this Fable (faith he) there sprang vp superstition in Rome. For the wo­men there representing this taking away of Proserpina by force, and Ceres seeking her with lights in the Kalends of February, (which moneth was said to bee consecrated to the God of Hell Pluto, which by another name was called Februus, from whom the moneth was called February) went about with lights ouer Hilles and Vallyes with Ceres, seeking Proserpina. Now to take a­way this superstition obserued in the Ho­nour of the Queene of Hell the Church ap­poynted, that in honour of the Queene of Heauen, the second day of February, to wit, on the feast of the Purification, the Faith­full people should carry in their handes lighted Candles. And hence it is (saith hee) that that day is called Candelaria. We call it Candlemas.

And so one superstition gaue place to another.

I perceiue this custome or traditi­on, or whatsoeuer you call it, is nobly des­cended, and of a very auncient House. Her Grand-mother was the Lady Fable, her mo­ther was a great Lady in Rome called Ma­dame Superstition, who was very fruitfull. She hath brought forth many Sonnes, and [Page 302]many Daughters▪ many Nephews, and ma­ny Neeces, which yeerely after sheep-shea­ring, giue her many golden fleeces.

Alacke for you, are you come in with your néeces and fléeces? all is but fa­bles with you.

I thinke in a while they will say as one sayd: O quantum nobis profuit illa Fabula dech. See the de­fence of the Apol pag. 273. printed 1570,

Stay betimes Maister Tractable, least you marre all, for that is no speech of ours, but a lesson that one of your late Popes, (as it is reported) taught his Car­dinalls.

Whosoeuer taught it, it was a wicked lesson: for it was a naughty speech, and sauoured of impietie.

You cannot for shame charge vs with it.

What the English of that speech is my cozen can tell, but I cannot, nor I care not: but I see you are not greatly in loue with traditions.

As to reiect all traditions were rashnesse, so to féede vpon them as substan­tiall foode, and néedfull to eternall life, the written word being left for that purpose, is méere folly, and a meanes to deceius vs.

All your talke Madame, is of the [Page 303]written word, and your Churches are dec­ked with nothing but Bibles, Paraphrases, the Creed, the ten Commandements, and such like: but I see no Altars and Images, no Crosses, no Ashes, nor any of our deck­ings, vnlesse it be a surplesse, and that to ma­ny of you is as welcome, as snow in. Har­uest.

What say you mistresse Romana, haue we neither Crosses nor Ashes? had the bodies of those which were burnt in Quéene Maries dayes, no Crosses, nor Ashes?

Yes, but not for the Popes sake.

You say true, for it was for Christs sake that they suffered their flesh, & bloud, sinewes, artires, and veines, bowels, mary­bones, and braines, to be burnt to Ashes; which burning, though it were a cruell tor­ment, (considering who felt it,) yet no­thing so horrible as fierie Fauxe his bur­ning would haue beene, because the other gaue some warning, he would haue giuen none.

Truly I for my part doe vtterly mislike, that any religion should set in her foote by such diuelish deuises, but my Cou­zen sayd your Churches wanted Altars and Images.

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What should we doe with Altar, or super-Altars? we haue no such vse for them now, as in the lawe: Christ Iesus our Sacrifice, hath offered vp himselfe once for all, on the Altar of the Crosse.

Did not he say: Leaue thine offe­ring vpon the Altar. And againe: Whether is greater, the Offering, or the Altar which sanctifieth the Offering?

Hee spake according to the time. The Temple and the Altar were standing, Christ was not come to the Crosse.

What say you to Images?

I say it is good not to be too farre in loue with them, least wee make Idols of them: As I feare me one Garnet did of that Image, which I my selfe, with two or three more that were appoynted to search that Colledge, whereof the said Garnet was a member some 40 yeares agoe found in his study: the which Image of Alablaster I ha­uing in my hand, standing in the said Garnets study, he said vnto me: I pray you handle it reuerendly. To whom I answered, That I would handle it with as much reuerence as was due to a stone, and so let it fall to the ground before his face. What warrant hee had so to esteeme of it, I know not: but my warrant euen then, was this: thou shalt [Page 305]not make to thy selfe any grauen Image. Exod. 20. Babes keepe your selues from Idols 1. Ioh. 5.11. They that make them are like [...]o [...]em, and all that trust in them. Psal. 115.8. with vs, part of the 113. Psal. according to their di­uiding it is the 16. verse of Psalm. 113. to my remembrance. Gregory Martin, whom also I knew in Oxford, would not haue any of these places vnderstood of Images of Saints, but of the Idols of the Heathen. But all that liued here in time of Popery, or haue trauelled where such Images be much regarded, must needes confesse, that they haue beene, and are made very Idols, and that a number goe a whooring after them, as the Heathen did after theirs. They that tare the Church bookes heere, and said, Vp shall holy Crosse, and you shall goe downe, were not farre from this. But howsoeuer other places of holy Scripture touching Images may bee vnderstood of heathen mens idols, I can hardly be perswa­ded, that S. Iohn in the place I cited before, meant such only, because he wrote to such Fathers as knew him that was from the be­ginning, & to such yong men as were strōg and had the word of God abiding in them, and knew the truth. And in the fifth chapter, v. 13. he saith, that they to whom [Page 306]he wrote beleeued in the name of the Sonne of God, and therefore it is very likely that such were weaned from heathenish idols.

But what say you to our Sen­cings Offerings, and such like?

You are so in loue with such mat­ters, that you giue vs occasion to suspect, that you thinke God, and the Saints, are as well pleased with such things, as the Hea­then thought their Gods were with the bloud of Beasts. Touching which, Lactanti­us hath these words.

Quid enim Coelestis in se boni potest habere pecudum sanguis effusus quo aras inquinant, Lactan d [...]ue­ro cultu ca. 2 nisi forte deos existimaut eo vesci, quod homines aspernantur aetingere &c. For what Heauen­ly good thing can the bloud of Beasts haue in it, wherewith being shed they pollute their Altars, except perhaps they thinke the Gods doe eate that, which men disdaine to touch: and whosoeuer can make such a Feast, (though he be a Cutthroate, an Adul­terer, a Sorcerer, a Parricide,) he shall be a happy man, him they loue, him they defend, he shall haue what he will; worthily there­fore doth Perseus after his manner deride this kinde of superstition.

Qua tu, inquit, mercede Deorum emeris auricu­las, [Page 307]pulmone? &c.

So it should seeme that you thinke to winne Gods fauour by outward seruice, & shewes of deuotion. If any of your family will go to Masse, and carry a Crucifixe, hee shall be your white sonne, hee shall haue a farme, but if he looke on a Bible, or go now and then to a Sermon, then out with the Hereticke, he hath forfeited his lease.

The carying of a crucifixe is but a badge of our profession.

Our Sauiour you know said all men should know his Disciples by louing one another.

May not one carry a Crucifixe, and loue to a Catholicke also?

You should loue those also whom you take for your enemies. Christ saith, sin­ners loue their louers.

How do you know we loue thē not?

In that you go about to kill them.

May not hereticks be put to death?

Do you accompt them Heretickes, which hold that Athanasius faith is the Cha­tholicke faith and shall men dye, ere they [Page 308]come to their answere?

Athanasius saith: Christ descen­ded into hell, what thinke you of that?

I do not onely think, but stedfast­ly beleeue, that as he suffered so farre forth in soule and body for the redemption of his people, as his Father thought was sufficient for such an holy redeemer as he was to suf­fer: So also in such sort hee hath descended into hell, and lockt vp the power of the di­uell (for he hath the keies of hel & of death) and hee hath triumphed, Reu. 1. hauing gotten the victory, that none which repent and beleeue in him shall neede to feare the fiery force thereof. Colos. 2. If you will haue mee to reach fur­ther then this, I must craue pardon, and pray you to go to such as haue longer armes then I: That hee descended into hell, is an Article of our faith, and I beleeue it, though it be not in the Nicene Creed.

Is not Christ he that entred into the strong mans house, bound him, and spoi­led him?

Yes, or else not onely the poore man, that was possest, might haue remained blind, and dumbe to his dying day, but he & all of vs had bene spoyled for euer.

Others besides Christ did cast out diuels.

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They did so, but it was in the name of Christ, which was the stronger, & happy are they out of whom this stronger power by the finger of God, euen by the working of the holy Ghost, casteth out that Diuell, that maketh them so blind that they cannot see the way to saluation, by a liuely faith in Christ his merits: and so dumb that they cannot open their mouth with Paul, Ephe: 2.8▪ to say, By grace yee are saued, through faith, and that not of your selues. It is the gift of God, not of workes, least any man should boast himselfe.

I remember those words in the second to the Ephesians, ver. 10. where though hee teacheth them, y ^e wee are created vnto good workes, which God hath ordained, that wée should walk in thē, yet he saith, we are saued by grace, & so forth, as you haue rehearsed.

What do you talke now of faith, and workes? my cozen spake of descending into hell, answere him to his question. Did not Christ bind the strong man, that is the diuell, in his owne house, which is hell?

After the diuell entred into Iudas, where was his house then?

He was there as a guest for a time, but his dwelling house is hell: what is your answere?

Besides y ^t which I haue said already,

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I answere, first that this is a mat­ter in controuersie among learned men, whose bookes are extant, there you may sée this sifted to the vtmost. Secondly, this I thinke a man may say without offence, that as hee was able to heale the Centuri­ons seruant, though hee entred not into his house; So could he make hell know that he had the key of it, though his soule did not take it in his way from y ^e crosse to Paradise.

It is a greater matter to binde the Diuell, to locke him fast, and in triumph to carry away the keies of death and hel, then to heale a sicke man, though hee were at deaths dore.

As with God there is great mer­cy to pardon the great sinnes of such as be greatly grieued for them, hauing their re­pentance seasoned with the Salt of faith, to keepe them from desperation (which salt was not in Caine, and I [...]das) So no doubt there is such a mighty power in this Mi­chael, Reu. 12.7. as he is able to vanquish y ^e stoutest Dragon, be his force and power neuer so great. I reade of a battell in heauen, but none in hell. The Diuine power can binde & shut vp Sathan, by such a descending as we are not able to expresse. For my part I be­leeue that Article, touching his descending [Page 211]into hell, though the manner how be not set downe in the Creed.

That battel betwixt Michael and the Dragon may be said to bee in heauen, in respect of the Church Militant, who though she be on earth, hath her conuer­sation with her Captaine Christ in heauen A strong man is not bound and spoyled without great strngling, a stronger power wrestled with him and ouercame him, Mat. 12.29. and his binding and spoyling is said to be in the strong mans house, and what is that but hell?

I deny not the binding, neither do I stand vpon the place, but this I ob­serue, that though it be said in the Apostles Creed, and in Athanasius his Creed: Aug. de simb. ad catherum. l [...], 3, a [...] side & simb oa, 5. in sol. 1, & 3. Hee descended into hell: Yet they shew not the manner how: and you know the Nicene Crede hath not these words. Augustine di­uers times speaketh of Christ his death, buriall, and resurrection, omitting the de­scension, but howsoeuer that descending is to be taken, or wheresoeuer that binding was, this is certaine: Col, 2, 14, 15 Rollocke, that Saint Paul hath these words; Putting out the hand-wri­ting of ordinances that was against vs, which was contrary to vs, hee euen tooke it out of the way, and fastned it vpon the [Page 312]crosse and spoyled the Principalities, and powers, & hath made a shew of thē openly, and hath triumphed ouer them in the same.

I know wherefore you bring this place, euen to proue that wheresoeuer those powers were spoyled, yer the shew and tri­umph was open. But how do you interpret those words, putting out the hand-writing, &c. Some of the learned intrepret them thus: The ceremonies and rites were as it were a publicke profession and hand-wri­ting of the miserable state of mankind: for circumcision declared our naturall polluti­on, the purifyings & washings signified the filth of sinne, the sacrifices testified, that we were guilty of death, which were all taken away by Christs death.

Maister Guid-well, you and Mai­ster Tractable may talke of these matters another time, let vs spend this time about that we came for.

That is to perswade me to come to your Church, vnto the which if I should come, you thinke my beeing there would make me to be of your minde. I haue heard that all which come to your Churches bee not faithfull, zealous, and honestalike, they differ much in many things. Sith God is said to bee no accepter of persons, Can you [Page 313]shew any reason why his word or his grace worketh not in all alike?

I remember Saint Augustine vnto some such question hath this answere: ‘ Si gratiae illuminatione sensus tuus, Aug. contra Delag [...]ypon nost lib. 3. herae­tice, a tenebris insipientiae esset detectus, &c. If thy vnderstanding, O hereticke, by the inlightning of grace were detected from the darknesse of foolishnesse, thou wouldst beléeue those diuine testimonies, which I spake before, or other innume­rable found in holy Scriptures, not yet cited by mee, that God to no merits of man doth giue his grace: by which he she­weth himselfe vnto them to bring them to beléeue in him, and to serue him, and thou wouldst not enquire; yea thou wouldst discusse why hee worketh not that in all, (which alwaies well and iustly worketh all things that hee will, and no man re­sisteth his will) for which he hath done all things that he would: therefore I would not haue thée to aske mee Metuentem & trementem iudicia eius inscrutabilia, & incomprehensibilia, Fearing & trembling at his vnsearcheable & incomprehensible iudgements, why he worketh this to one and not to another; because that which I read I beleeued & reuerenced, without [Page 314]any discussing: For what man is there that will reason with God? Rom. 9.20 shall the thing formed say vnto him that formed it, why hast thou made mee thus? for the Potter hath power ouer the clay, of the same lumpe to make one vessell to honour, and another to dishonour. But aske him which said: No man commeth to me, ex­cept my father which sent me, draw him. And, all take not this word, but they to whom it is giuen. Mat 10. Mat [...]3. Mat. 11 And, to you it is giuen to know the Kingdome of God, but to others it is not giuen. And no man knoweth the Sonne, but the Fa­ther, and hee to whom the Sonne will re­ueale him.’

I cannot tell what to say to those words of Saint Augustine, but if hee were heere now, I would aske him what were true Religion, that I might em­brace it.

When he was here he said: Est e­nim vera religio, qua se vn [...] Deo anima, Aug. de ani­mae quantitat [...] [...] 36 vn­de se peccato velut abruperat, reconcilia­tione religat: For that is true Religion, (saith he) by which the soule doth by recon­ciliation binde herselfe againe to God, from whom shee had as it were, broken off her selfe by sinne. In his 8. booke, and 17. chap­ter [Page 315] De Ciuitate Dei, hee sheweth how true Religion forbiddeth those things which the Diu [...]ls loue. And in the end of the Chapter he saith, that the summe of Religion is to i­mitate him whom thou doest worship. Sith then the Religion which we professe, is not to draw you to the seruice or worship of a­ny Angels, nor of any creatures that some­times liued heere, much lesse to the wor­ship of things that neuer had life, as Ima­ges and crosses: but bindeth vs to the wor­ship of one true liuing & eternall God, from whom we are fallen by sin: the which God, our religion requireth vs to follow, with the Apostle, which saith: Be ye followers of God as deare children: I see no reason why you should mislike y ^e religion here maintained.

Whatsoeuer your religion is, this is certaine, that England had the Christian Faith from Rome.

If it were so, which yet is denyed of some, which, to omit others, cite Nicepho­rus, who saith, Simon Zelotes doctrinam E­uangelij ad occidentem, insulas (que) Britani­cas praefert: Simon Zelotes carrieth y ^e do­ctrine of the Gospell to the West Ocean sea▪ and so to the Istands of Britanie: yet it doth no mere follow, that they of Rome should now for that cause be more frée then [Page 316]we, from errour: then it followeth, that the Iewes doe more steadfastly cleaue vnto Christ then we; because their Fathers had Moses and the Prophets, which testified of him hundreds of yeares ere wee heard of them. Though it bee fit a daughter should be ruled by her mother, being sober, & in her right mind: yet there is no more reason she should be ruled by her, when she is besides her selfe, then for you to send for fire to your neighbours house when it is infected, be­cause you did so (heretofore) when it was cleare. Rome is not now as she hath béene. Many learned men, not onely Professors of the Gospell, but such also as durst not but séeme to fauour them, haue set downe so many bad things, found (as they say) in this new Rome, and charged her so often with ambition, pride, whooredom, & couetousnes, cruelty, superstition, heresie, & idolatry, that in respect of most of these, I know not to whom I may better compare her, then to that ancient Tyrus, to whom the Lord, by the Prophet saith thus:

Because thine heart is exalted, and thou hast said: Ezek. 28.2. I am a God, I sit in the seate of God in the middest of the sea: Yet thou art but a man, and not GOD, though thou diddest thinke in thine heart that thou [Page 317]wast equall with God.

Thou wast perfect in thy wayes from the day thou wast created, 15 till iniquity was foūd in thee.

By the multitude of thy Merchandize they haue filled the middest of thee with cruelty, and thou hast sinned 16 therefore I will cast thee as prophane out of the moun­taine of God, and I will destroy thee, couering Cherub from the middest of the stones of fire.

Thine heart was lifted vp because of thy beauty, 1 and thou hast corrupted thy wise­dome by reason of thy brightnesse: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before Kings, that they may beholde thee.

Thou hast defiled thy Sanctification by the multitude of thine iniquities, 18 and by the iniquity of thy Merchandise. Therefore will I bring a fire from the middest of thee, which shall deuoure thee, and I will bring thee to ashes vpon the earth, in the sight of all them that shall beholde thee.

All they that know thee among the people shall bee astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terrour, and neuer shalt thou bee any more.

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God forbid the Mother Church should haue such a fearefull fall, as is there threatned to Tirus, for if she should, then might we well say, she is that Babilon, spo­ken of in the Reuelation; and then would such Kings of the earth as had committed fornication, and liued in pleasure with her, lament for her, and standing a farre off, for feare of her torment, say alasse, alasse, the great Cittie Babilon, the mighty Citty, for in one hower is thy iudgement come, & the Marchants of the Earth would weepe and waile ouer her, because no man would buy their wares any more.

Harke in your eare Couzen, is a­ny of the Marchants wares named there?

Yes, much of it.

Is there any mention of Fran­kensence, and Oyle?

Yes, in the thirteenth verse.

I meruaile at that.

Why so?

Because these things are vsed in our Churches, and not among the Pro­testants.

Speake out Neighbour Romana, that we may heare you.

If you fauoured Rome, I would, but I thinke you would be glad to see her [Page 319]fall.

If she be that Babilon that is spo­ken of in that Chapter: Heauen it selfe, with the holy Apostles, and Prophets, Re. 18.20. must reioyce when her iudgement is come.

Cannot you find in your heart to pray heartily with vs, that if it be the will of God, Rome may neuer haue such a dred­full downefall?

Truly I pray God from my heart to amend all that is amisse wheresoeuer. You knowe, wee in the Church of England pray God to haue mercy vpon all men; by which words, (as I thinke) men of all Nati­ons, and of all degrees are vnderstood.

I know not, for I neuer came there. The cause is this, you do not hold the Pope to be Christs Vicar generall, you say he may erre, you charge some of them with grieuous crimes, your translations are mislyked; besides this, such as dame Cathe­ra here can not abide to see one of the poore countrey Fellowes that drudge and droyle all the yeere, to shake their Bells a little at Whitsontide; wee Catholikes though we fast▪ and pray in Lent, yet we loue to be merry at Christmas, and at our Wakes.

If that which Doctor Fulke, Bishoppe [Page 320] Iuel, Maister Nowell, Doctor Reynolds, and others, haue written at large of the Popes, either touching their supremacie, their erring, or their liues, will not satisfie your Couzen, and you, I know not what to say to you; yet because you refuse not to conferre with me, I will tell you my mind plainely, and that in fewe words.

First for Christs Vicar generall, I know none worthie to be so called as the Holy Ghost, whom Saint Austin calleth the Porter, yea I cannot see how it can be­long to any besides. I prooue it thus.

He whome the Sonne Christ promised to send from his Father, Nondedigna­ter spirit as sanctus esse os [...]oarius in Io tract. 4. not only to Peter, but to the rest, to comfort them, and to abide with them for euer, is only Christs Vicar generall. Io. 14.16. But this was the Holy Ghost only. 1. Argument, Therefore he only is y ^t Vicar. For to be thus sent, doth nothing diminish his deitie.

He which is the Spirit of trueth whom the world receiueth not, 2, Argu. though he dwelleth with the faithfull, is alone worthie to be called Vicar to him, which is the trueth. But such a one is the Holy Ghost. 3. Argu. Ergo, he whome the Father sent in Christs name to teach all thinges, and to bring all thinges to remembrance that Christ told, is Chrsts [Page 321]Vicar generall, but such a one is the holy Ghost alone, therefore he only is Christ his vniuersall Vicar.

Tell vs plainly, Maister Tractable, can you or any man apply these things to any Pope, or to Peter himselfe? if any of you would say yes, then it should follow, that Peter should not néed to haue béene comfor­ted and confirmed himselfe, ere hee went a­bout to confirme others.

But is it not some supremacy to be a strengthner of others, after he himselfe was confirmed?

It is a good worke, and a good fruit of repentance, when a man hath shewed his weaknesse in denying his maister, and that with cursing and swearing, after his conuersion to exhort them to take héed they confesse Christ constantly, lest with him they féele that, which made him wéep bitter­ly. This Apostle was forward in answering when our Sauiour asked any question, for­ward in louing, and no doubt forward in feeding Christs shéepe, where he came, as the rest did where they came. But that hee had more authority to censure the other two Pillers, Iames and Iohn, then they him, I cannot finde in the Holy Scrip­tures.

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I bring not this as misliking degrées in gouernment, thought fit for the better pre­seruing of the safety and peace of any land, but as wishing you to remember to shew that Peter called himselfe and his fellowes witnesses of the resurrection of Christ, Act, 10.39.4 [...] but no Pastor of Pastors, or head of the vni­uersall Church.

Christ bade him feede his sheepe. Ergo, that belongeth to him and his succes­sors, more then to others.

Christ bad Peter to pay that for tribute for them two, as he should find in y ^e Fish: he said not so to the rest: ergo, if your argument halt not, Christ and Peter with his successors, to auoyd offences, are more bound to pay tribute to Caesar then any o­thers. I thinke you will not grant this wil­lingly. Our Sauiour knowing that Peter had denyed him thrise, Aug. in Io, tract. 1 2 3, though he promised to sticke to him, though all the rest should forsake him, bad him, if hee loued him more then the rest did, to shew it by his diligence in feeding his sheepe and his Lambes: yet ye know these words, Mat. 28.16 19 Mat. 27.5. Acts 1.11.22.26. Goe and teach all Nations, were spoken to ten others besides Peter, I say ten others, because at that time there were but eleuen, for Iudas had han­ged himselfe before, and Matthias was [Page 323]not chosen to bee a witnesse of the Resur­rection of Christ, with the rest, till after Christ was taken vp from his Disciples in­to Heauen.

Well, let vs leaue this, and returne from whence we digressed. If you will haue the holy Ghost the Guide and Teacher of the whole Church militant (for of that we spake) where shall we finde the holy Ghost, which is inuisible, guiding and teaching, that we might hearken vnto him?

In the holy Scriptures, He shall te­stifie of me, & you shall beare wit­nesse also. Io. 15.26.27 which are in the mind, & in the mouth of euery godly, faithfull, sound, discréete & zealous teacher, y ^t teacheth according to y ^e same scriptures, not séeking their owne glory, but the glory of God, and the edifying of his people. S. Peter saith, speaking of prophesie in the Scripture, 2 Eph. 2. Pe [...] 1.20.21. See the 2. of Tim. 3.16. that holy men of God spake as they were moued by the holy Ghost. The Apostle to the Hebrews citing these words of the 95. Psalme. To day if you will heare his voyce, saith: the holy Ghost spake them. S. Peter saith, Heb 3.7. 2. Pet. 3, 16. 1. Cor. 7.40 Ioh. 14 17. that S. Paul wrote according to the wisedome giuen vnto him. S. Paul himselfe saith: I thinke that I haue also the Spirit of God. Our Sauiour told his Dis­ciples, that the Spirit of truth should dwell with thē, & be in them. Wicked men by the [Page 324]help of some Spirituall gifts prophesie, 1 Cor, 6.19. & o [...] and yet profit no more themselues then the bell that calleth others to hearing, & heareth nothing it selfe. But if y ^e body of each faith­full Christian bee the Temple of the Holy Ghost, which they haue of God, then no doubt he is also in that teacher, which hath a care of these things following. First, not only to leade into some truth, but into all truth. I meane, that is reuealed in y ^e word. S Paul saith, Act. 20. that he kept nothing back. For in fit time & place euery thing reuealed in y ^e holy scripture, as occasiō serueth, is to be laid open in a discréet maner. Secondly, as y ^e ho­ly Ghost extolleth not the wisdome, power, and merits of man, but glorifieth Christ: so doth euery good teacher (according to that is measured vnto him) endeuour to glorify the son of God, Ioh. 16.13.14. yea the blessed Trinity, whose loue is made manifest in Christ, not only by his doctrine, but also by his déeds. Thirdly, as y ^e holy Ghost sheweth things to come, so doth y ^e true teacher tell what y ^e holy Ghost saith shal be in y ^e later daies: 2. Thes. 2 for this is part of the truth, as to tell y ^t the man of sin shall be disclosed. 1. Tim. 4. Some shall speake lies through hypocrisie, 2 Tim. 3. forbidding to marry. Some cree­ping into houses, shall leade captiue simple women. [...]ou. 18.21. The great Cittie Babylon shall [Page 325]bee Cast downe. Reu. 21, 2. The new Ierusalem shal be prepared as a Bride for her husband, &c. These and the like things, such as bee gui­ded by God, according to their gift, haue a care to do.

But when men [...]arre, and do not a­gree about the sense or meaning of some hard places of scripture, is it not good, and great quiet to the Church, that some one in authority should strike the stroke, and say: Let it be taken thus?

What if one mans exposition proue worse then ail the rest, shall we build our faith for quyetnesse sake, vpon a false interpretation? Indeed it were a blessed thing if any one might be found any where, that could and would alwaies hit aright, and neuer misse: but because you cannot name any such a one on earth, the safest and surest way is for each Christian King, in his owne dominion, to call vnto hin [...] the greatest, godliest, and best learned, and so they altogether to vse the meanes, which the learned professors of the Gospell iudge to be best for the vnderstanding of the dar­ker places: and so through Gods helpe, fin­ding the truth, hold the people to it by such discipline as shall be thought most fit for the glory of God, and the good of the Church.

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By that meanes it may bee, that each particular Church may yeelde to that which the chiefe in that church shall affirme to bee soundest: But yet one particular Church may (for all that) dissent from ano­ther, as England frō Spaine in many points, especially if any Church would (notwith­standing they would seeme to vse that meanes) bow the sense to the opinion they haue long fauoured, and not their opinions to that sense, vnto which the meanes you spake of (if they would suffer it) would draw it. And so mens affections ouer-ruling the meanes, though there may be some vnity in the particular, yet there will be still a war in the vniuersall: and therfore if you wil haue a generall vnity, there must be a generall Councell, in which some godly learned men out of all parts of Christendome must meete, and all shew themselues willing to the truth, and to embrace vnity and vnifor­mity. So might we haue one translation, and one interpretation throughout all Christen­dome, which though they differed in Lan­guage, should be all one in sense.

If any in that generall meeting will be froward, and labour to draw, as you said, the sense to their opinion, they may all goe home againe, and conclude nothing. [Page 327]It is well knowne, that latter Councels haue vndone that which some former haue decréed, and that there hath béene iarring and erring in Councels.

Haue Councels erred?

If one decrée for the obseruation of any thing, and an other decree against the same thing, one of these must needes erre.

You must needs grant that cozen.

Your cozen may sée this proued to be true in the writing of sundry men, if it please him.

Well, it may bee that men seeing the inconueniency of such iarring and vary­ing will be wiser now, and take heed they decree nothing which others in time to come shall haue iust cause to gaine-say and vndoe. And they shal the better effect this, if they begin with prayer, and some ancient godly man to exhort the rest, that as they haue the feare of God, any sound faith in Iesus Christ, any true zeale, any loue to Gods Church, any care to quiet mens con­sciences, they should, (laying aside all bit­ter and biting words, all partiality, all hunting after vaine-glory,) earnestly, carefully, painfully, and charitably, con­ferre and trauell, to bring one sound [Page 328]Translation, one forme of sound doctrine and one good gouernment in the Church in all Nations.

I doubt the Protestants will hardly be drawne to goe among such, as not onely count them Heretikes, but also hold that no promise, no faith is to be kept with them. Your dealing heretofore with Iohn Husse, and Hierom of Prage, and your late Powder plots, are able to make any (were he neuer so willing to seeke peace,) to be a fraide to come among you. You talke much of Charitie: it is a monstrous charity that is still seeking for bloud. Our louing Rede­mer found fault with Peter for striking off a Seruants eare: Mat. 26 51. and did you thinke to please him with blowing vp so many, not Seruants, but Maisters, Lords, yea the Lords Anoynted? Wretched Fauxe, ney­ther thou, Mat. 5.36. nor any man, can make an haire white, or blacke.

Good Maister Guide-well talke no more of such Catholike conclusions. I for my part am ashamed of them, and so I thinke are all such as haue not their consci­ences seared with a hotte Iron: let such bloudy deuises returne to Hell, from whence they came; & let vs now here what is thought of the Learned, to be the best [Page 329]means to cōe by the true sense of the Scrip­tures, which as Saint Peter sayth, P 3. 316. are peruer­ted by such as are vnlearned, and vnstable.

There be diuers meanes, which if they be rightly vsed, will no doubt further vs well in that search.

The first is Prayer; Aske, and it shall be giuen you.

The second is the knowledg of the origi­nall tongues, chiefely required in transla­tors: for except we vnderstand the words, how shall we find the sence?

The third is the Word, to consider what is spoken properly, what figuratiuely. VVhit contro­uer. l. p 349. 350. 351. &c. It is a miserable bondage of the Soule (sayth Austin,) to take the Signes for the Things: That is, to interpret those things properly, that are spoken figuratiuely.

The fourth is to consider the scope, the end, the matter, y ^e circumstance, what went before, and what followeth after.

If thou wilt enter into life (saith Christ) keepe the Commandements: Here-hence our Aduersaries do gather, y ^t we are iustifi­ed by works, not marking to what man our Sauiour Christ made that answere; euen to him verily, which leaning to the opinion of his owne righteousnes, demaunded what thinges he might doe that he might obtaine [Page 330]eternall life, such men as trust to their own workes, are worthily sent to the Law, y ^e so they may vnderstand, how farre they bee from perfect righteousnesse.

The fift meane is, to conferre one place with another, the obscure with such as bee more plaine: Saint Iames saith, Abraham was iustified by workes: Ia. 2.21. Saint Paul saith, Abraham was not iustified by workes, for then he should haue wherein to boast: Rom. 4.2. And that Paul spake in that place of workes which followed the calling of Abraham, it is euident first because it is said; Abrahā be­leeued God, and it was imputed to him for righteousnesse: which all men know to haue bene long after his calling: Secondly, be­cause Saint Paul commeth afterward to the example of Dauid, who was an holy man, renued by the Spirit of God & called of God. Wee must needs therefore grant, that the word of Iustification is taken di­uersly. So that to be iustified with Iames, is to bee declared iust, as Thomas Aquinas himselfe vpon that place granteth, but to be iustified with Paul, is to bee absolued from all sinnes, and to be reputed iust.

There be some which thinke that Saint Iames spake of iustification, as it com­prehendeth sanctification: but go on.

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The sixt meane is not onely to conferre like places with like, but also vnlike with vnlike. Except ye eate the flesh of the Sonne of man, and drinke his bloud, you haue no life in you: let this place be com­pared with the like, in the fourth of Iohn: Whosoeuer shall drinke of that water which I shall giue vnto him, there shall bee in him a spring of water, rysing vp vnto life eternall. This water is spirituall, Eademratie. and the manner of drinking of it is Spirituall: And there is the same manner of eating his flesh: for to eate and drinke are alike. Therforeas that water is drunke after a Spirituall manner, which maketh that wee neuer thirst: euen so ought the flesh of Christ to be eaten, and his bloud drunke, but Spiri­tually: Now for vnlike places, compare that former place, Except yee eate the flesh of the Sonne of man, &c. with the sixt commandement, Thou shalt not kill, for if it be a wicked deed to kil a man, much more to eate and deuoure. Therefore Saint Austin saith, that those words, Except yee eate the flesh, Aug. li. 3. do doct. Chr. c. 16. &c. are to bee vnderstood and interpreted figuratiuely, because otherwise they should command an heinous and wic­ked deed.

The seuenth helpe for the vnderstanding [Page 332]the darke places, is, to haue a care that all our expositions agree to the Analogy of our faith. By Analogy is meant a constant and perpetuall sentence of the Scriptures in those places, which are plaine and easy, such as are the Articles of our faith, and such things as are contained in the Lords pray­er, and the ten Commandements: so that whatsoeuer [...]pposition agreeth not with this Analogy is fals. For examples sake, our Aduersaries out of the words of the Sup­per, This is my body, picke a Transubstanti­ation▪ giuing this sense: this bread is chan­ged into my body. The Lutherans inter­pret them another way, to wit, vnder this bread is my body: and here-hence they ga­ther Consubstantiation. Now both these ex­positions dissent from the Analogy of faith: which teacheth, Christ hath a body like to our bodies, but such a body cannot either ly hid vnder the accidents of bread, or be toge­ther with bread. Secondly, the Analogy of faith teacheth, that Christ is in heauen, therefore he is not in the bread, or with the bread. Thirdly y ^e Analogy of faith teacheth that Christ shal come from heauen to iudge­ment, and not out of a boxe.

The eighth meanes is, when we féele not ourselues skilfull euough to vse y ^e meanes, [Page 333]to go to others that be more skilfull, to reade other mens bookes, to aske counsell of the Comentaries and expositions of learned interpreters: alwaies prouided, that wee attribute not too much to them, and that wee thinke not their interoretations to bee receiued, because they come from them, but because they are either warranted by the authority of the holy Scriptures, or vnder­propped with sound and substantiall rea­son.

You haue ledde my cozen along with these eight meanes, but you haue not shewed any fault or any errour in any Pope.

I cannot shew all at once, if wee liue wee will talke of that to morrow.

The Dialogue.

HOe, Who sits next the fire?

That doe I, reading the Re­solution, though it grieue you.

It grieueth not mee, so that you take heed of that which swerueth from the Analogy of faith, whereof you heard yesterday.

I thinke you reade none of the [Page 334]books which are writen by those whom you call superstitious Catholickes.

Yes, more then you doe of ours, we are to try all things, but wee must hold fast nothing but that which is good.

I will heare what you haue to say against any of the Popes, ere I try what is in your bookes?

That which is written in the books of Bishop Iewel, Doctor Reynolds, and others, shew farre more of their errours, and wickednesse, then I minde to rehearse, though memory and time did serue. If your cozen would buy those bookes, you should heare their good dealings at large. But to what end would you heare of errour & sin?

Because if I shall see that any of the Popes were very had, I will take heed how I call them the Vicars of him, which was very good.

Why cozen? Iudas was one of the twelue, though a traytor.

Do not you thinke that many of the Popes, which seemed by their deeds ra­ther to succéede Iudas then Peter, cannot shew so good a warrant, for their lawfull entrance into the Pope-ship, as Iudas might shew for his entrance into the Apo­stleship?

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Though they bee not chosen to their office immediatly by Christ, as Iudas was to the Apostle-ship, yet I thinke none take that roome without election.

When there were two Popes at once, which of them was Christs Vicar, which of their elections was most lawfull?

Let that go, and let vs heare what you haue to say of any of their errours of liues.

Vincentius Lyrinensis giueth vs to vnderstand, that there was a time when almost all the Latine Byshops fauoured Arrianisme: And if you would reade but Byshop Iewel his preface to the defence of the Apology, you shall finde these wordes: Where I say Pope Liberius was an Arri­an herritick, Maister Harding answereth or else you are an errant slanderous lyer, iudge thou vs indifferently, good Christian Rea­der, and let the lyer haue his meede. This is not my iudgement of Pope Liberius. It is written and reported by sundry others, e­uen by such as Maister Harding cannot condemne for errant liers. Here wil I speak nothing of S. Hierome, for Maister Har­ding vtterly refuseth his iudgement, in this behalfe, and saith hee was much deceiued, how be it errant lyer I trow hee will not [Page 336]call him for his authorities sake. But Sa­bellicus saith, Liberius, vt quidam scribunt, ex confesso factus Arianus. Liberius, as some men say, by open profession became an Arrian. Alphonsus de castro, saith in plaine words: De Liberio Papa constat, fuisse A­rianum: For Pope Liberius it is well-known, that he was an Arrian heritick The same is auouched by Rhegino, by Platina, by Cardinall Cusanus, by Anselmus, Rid. and others. Laurentius Valla, a Chanon of the Church of Rome saith thus, Papa Cae­lestinus sensit cum haeretico Nestorio. Pope Caelestine agreeth in iudgement, with the hereticke Nestorius. The same reuerend B. touching Pope Hildebrand, in the said preface (saith Nauclerius) hereof writeth thus. The Cleargy said that Pope Hilde­brand had defiled the Apostolique See with Simony, heresie, murder, and adulte­ry, that he was degenerate, and had forsa­ken the faith of Christ, and that therefore hee was for good causes iustly excommuni­cate by all the Byshops in Italy. Sigiber­tus Gemblacensis saith, Pope Hildebrand in his time troubled all the States in Chri­stendome▪ and for his out-rage and cruelty being banished and driuen out of Rome, in the end when hee saw death approach, hee [Page 337]made his confession to one of his Cardinals, that he abused his Pastorall office, that hee had troubled mankind with malice and mischiefe, by the counsell of the diuell.

It seemeth strange to me, that the Cardinall should reueale that, which the Pope confessed to him on his death-bed.

It may be he was moued in con­science to do it, to the end that such Popes as succeeded might beware by his example.

Well go on.

Pope Honorius was a Monothe­lite. Confer. R. [...] H, 90, Maister Harding himselfe doth not de­ny this, and others of this matter haue written thus: Then were two meetings of Byshops in Constantinople, which doe beare the name of the fixt Councell; the for­mer vnder the Emperour Constantinus; the fourth about the yeare of Christ, sixe hun­dred and eighty; the latter vnder his sonne Iustinian towards a thirty yeares after. The former was assembled against the he­risie of the Monothelites: the Byshops of the West Church, as of the East, The Mono­thelites said that Christ had but on­ly one will, & so by con­sequent but one nature, were present, and they with one consent did all condemn Honorius. If you Maister Tract­able be not acquainted with these matters, you may reade more at your leasure of Bo­niface the eighth, who is said to haue entred [Page 338]like a Fox, raigned like a Lyon, and to haue dyed like a Dog: Conf, R. & H, 229, & 240, and of Alexander the sixt, which Pope is said to haue bought the voyce of many Cardinals, &c. His couetous­nesse is called vnsatiable, his ambition vnmeasurable, Onuph, in A­lex [...]. his eruelcy more then bar­barous, and that hee had a most feruent de­sire of aduauncing, (by what meanes soe­euer) his children, of whom hee had many, &c. Such a Serpent held the seate of Saint Peter, for the space of tenne yeares, vntill his owne venome killed him.

How I pray you?

I will tell you how I finde it set downe by others. When he and his sonne & heire the Duke of Valence, had purposed to haue poysoned a Cardinall, whom they were to sup with (as commonly they vsed not onely their enemies, but also their friends, yea neerest friends, which had ri­ches, that themselues might bee enriched with their spoyle) the Duke had sent thi­ther Flagons of wine poysoned, by a ser­uant whom hee made not priuy to the mat­ter, but willed him to giue them no man. The Pope comming into the Cardinals before supper time, the weather being hot, he thirsty, called for wine: Now because his owne prouision for supper was not [Page 393]come from the Pallace yet, the seruant of the Duke gaue him of that wine, which he thought his Maister had willed to bee kept for himselfe, as the best wine, of which while hee was drinking, his sonne the Duke came in, and thinking the wine to be his fathers owne, he drunke of it too: so the Pope was carried sodainely for dead home to the Pallace, and the next day, hee was carried dead, after the man­ner of the Popes, into Saint Peters Church, blacke, swollen, and vgly, most ma­nifest signes of poyson.

If this be true, I must needs say it was Gods iust iudgement vpon them. But what were those heresies ye spake of before, of Arrius and N [...]storius?

Saint Austin saith, Aug. de [...]. ad quod. that the Arri­ans would not haue the Father, Sonne, and Holy Ghost, to bee of one nature, and essence, &c.

Nestorius, Vni. Lyr. ad ver [...]haer. (as Vincentius salth) fay­ning to distinguish two substances in Christ, on a sodaine bringeth in two per­sons, and by a wickednesse vnheard of, would haue two Sonnes of God, two Christs, &c.

If my cozen had made these things knowne vnto mee, I thinke though diuers [Page 340]laboured to keepe mee from going to Church, yet I should haue kept in some fro­ward speeches, as namely this, that I would be torne in peeces with wilde horses, ere I would come to Church.

I haue heard that many haue vsed that desperate speech, but I would wish all those which minde not to prouoke Gods wrath to their own woe, to aske themselues what should moue them so to say. Doe they think that God will be offended with them for hearing y ^e Minister say, Enter not into iudgement with th [...] seruants ô Lord, &c. or y ^e a sorrowful spirit is a sacrifice to God, de­spise not ô Lord, humble & contrite hearts; or that it is a sinne to make a generall con­fession of our sinnes, to say the Lords pray­er, to heare the Psalmes and chapters read, to pray in the Letany among other things, y ^t it would please God to bring into y ^e way of truth all such as haue erred and are decei­ued, or to be present where all estates & de­grees are prayed for, yea y ^t it would please God to haue mercy vpon all men, to forgiue our enemies, & at the end of the commande­ments to say, Lord haue mercy vpon vs, and write all these thy lawes in our hearts wee beseech thee: Or when we come to the con­gregation to say kneeling, O almighty God [Page 341]Father of our Lord Iesus Christ, iudge of all men, we acknowledge & bewaile our mani­fold sinnes and wickednesse which we from time to time most griueuously haue cōmit­ted against thy Diuine Maiesty, by thought, word, and deed, prouoking most iustly thy wrath & indignation against vs, we do ear­nestly repent, & bee heartily sorry for these our mis-doings, &c. After the Communion, to heare the Minister reade any of the pray­ers containing thanksgiuing as in the booke are appointed, or to sing with the rest of the thanksgiuing in Méeter, which beginneth

The reading or finging of this thāksgiuing doth edifie & cōmfort the faithfull & humble cōmunicant, far more then y ^e hearing of an 100 Masses, in a strange tongue, by which indeed the vnlearned hath no edifying at al.

What say you to these things Mi. Romana? is there any thing heere that should hinder you from praying with vs?

Aske my cozen.

Aske your cozen? aske your owne conscience. What if your cozen should tell you, that Peter brought men to the [Page 342]worship of Christ, by magicall Arts, and bad feates, as some fayned before S. Au­stins time, who wrot more then 1200 yeares ago, Aug. de ciuit, li, 18, c, 53, & 54, would you beleeue it to be so, if your cozen should say so?

I would you should well know Maister Guide-well, that I am so far from hauing that opinion of Peter, that I hold him for a true Teacher, and for that Shepe­heard whom Christ appointed to feede his Sheepe.

If you meane by Sheepheards the onely Sheepeheard, I may not yeeld to you, vnlesse I should dissent from S. Austin who on the tenth of Iohn saith, Et quidem, fratres, &c. And verily brethren, in that hee (meaning Christ) was a Sheepeheard, hee gaue it also to his members: for both Peter was a Shepheard, and Paul was a Shep­heard, and the rest of the Apostles were Shepheards, and good Byshops are Shep­heards.

Why then the Byshops of Rome, if they bee good Byshops, they bee good Shepheards.

No doubt of that, but if you list to reade, you shall find some too too bad, & that many of them haue erred fouly.

As men, but not as Popes.

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These be nice distinctions, and sophistical shifts. Hath their Popeship more force to keep them from errour then Peters Apostle-ship to keepe him from denying Christ.

That was before the holy Ghost sate on him, and the rest, at Pentecost. see Austin, de cor. do. ad. Bon. ca. 27.

Then you goe not about to excuse him, Sicut eum quidam (saith Austin) fauore peruerso excusare nituntur: As some men of a peruerse fauour endeuour to doe.

No, for I remember what the same Father sayth in the leafe foregoing, Quid festinas Petre? nondùm te solidauit Petra; Why art thou so hasty Peter? the Rocke, meaning Christ, hath not yet staide thee, or made thee sound, but did he any thing worthie of blame, after he wept bit­terly, and after the receiuing of the holy Ghost, and after Christ had him feede his Sheepe, commaunding him so thrise, as he had denyed thrise, to the end (as I take it) he might thencefoorth be as earnest in fee­ding, as before in denying? Did he (I say) deserue blame after this?

Or else Paule was too blame to withstand him to his face, for withdrawing himselfe, fearing those that were of the cir­cumcision, [Page 344]and in that dissimulation not going with a right foote to the trueth of the Ghospell. Gal. 2.11, 12, 13, 14,

That was at Antioch, not at Rome.

I did not say it was: you know there is no mention in all the Bible of his being at Rome.

Well, though he fayled in that point, yet his saith in Christ fayled him not: Christ prayed it might not.

I do not say, that holy Apostles fayth in Christ fayled him, I say he did something worthy blame in Saint Paules iudgement; but you would conclude here­on, if his faith fayled not, no Popes faith hath fayled; but if you would reade that conference betwixt Maister Reynolds, and Maister Hart, you should not only see the reason, why this Argument is denyed, but what soeuer is built for the Popes supre­macie, vpon any these speaches, Thou art Peter. &c. Whatsoeuer thou wilt binde, &c. I will giue thee the Keyes: I haue prayed for thee: Strengthen thy Bretheren. Feede my Sheepe. Or whatsoeuer is brought for that purpose, fully answered.

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And surely, whosoeuer will not acknow­ledge how that reuerend, godly, learned, and humble spirited man hath taken great paines, and dealt faithfully in searching for the trueth of the matters there handled, is very vnthankefull, and doth what in him lyeth, to discourage that good man, He is not at [...]est. and all others, from dealing any further in these pointes. Euery man according to his ha­bility should labour to bring the trueth to light, and doe as the Shepheards did, Luk. 2.17. when they had found Christ; they did not hide the matter, but published abroad the thing that was told them of that Child.

Search at Bethelem (Maister Tractable) for Christ: Search the House of Bread, for the Bread of life: Search the Scriptures (sayth our Sauiour) Doe not feede your Couzen with superstition. Controuersies in high points, should not seperate Christians, nor keepe any from that congregation, where no Idol, but the liuing God is worshiped, and called vpon, in the name of Christ. Doe not vrge olde obiections, but seeke for the answeres, and when you haue found them, and finde them sound and substanti­all, doe not hide them from other, but make [Page 346]them acquainted with them. What a num­ber of you haue contented your selues with Masses, Pictures, Agnus-dei's, Crucifixes, and such like, and through your owne will­fulnesse, robbed your selues of a number of Sermons, which you might haue heard in London, and in many other places of this Land, since that good Queene Eliza­beth came first to the Crowne.

We could not robbe our selues of that we neuer had: There I caught you once Maister Guidewell.

Yea Mistres Romana, I know you, and my Lady, (such a one) are full of your catches, you haue witte enough to quippe, and catch, but I like not such catching as catcheth a consumption, starueth your Soules, and purchaseth the displeasure of the Almighty; such wittnesse is wicked­nesse in his sight.

You say well Maister Guidewell. But to tel you my mind in a word, I would be more willing to come to your Church, if I did heare that M. Do-wel did vse to come thither.

If hee doe not, I pray you doe you come, and learne both to beleeue well, and doe well, and then we shall finde mistres Doe-well there.

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Wee are not to learne now, wee haue Sermons more then you know of, I would be ashamed there should be any such fruits found in vs, as are in a number of you Scripture men.

It may bee you are so seasoned now with salt-peter, that you cannot doe a­misse.

Tush, Let bloud goe, and talke of other bad fruite, as incontinency, or such other.

Let bloud go (quoth you) you were best indeed not to thirst for it: for the Pro­phet faith, The Lord abhorreth the bloud­thirsty and deceitfull man.

That is against men, and not wo­men.

Do not dally with the Scriptures. Saint Paul saith: Let a man examine him­selfes and so let him eate of that bread, &c. Will you say this pertaineth not to Wo­men?

The Greeke word Anthropos comprehendeth both Masculine and Fe­minine.

Why then, what say you to those words in the first verse of the first Psalme? Blessed is the man that doth not walke in the Councel of the wicked, nor stand in the [Page 348]way of sinners, nor sit in the seate of the scornefull. Is not the woman that shun­neth such company blessed, as well as the man? Though the Hebrew word bee Ish, the Latine Vir, a man, I thinke Iesabell had as fearefull a downe-fall as Achab. And whereas you, Mistresse Romana thinke, that none of your fide haue beene found so loose in life, as some Professors of the Gospell: I could say something, if I either tooke delight in rehearsing o­ther mens faults, or thought the sinne of some a sufficient argument to proue the do­ctrine which all of that side holde, to bee corrupt.

You cannot finde any such grosse faults in any that be, or haue beene in this Land of our side, as wee doe finde among you.

There bee too many faults eue­ry where, God amend vs all. But sith you vrge mee so much, I will tell you what I heard a Sonne report of his owne Father, I protest I will speake no vntruth, I heard this as I shall tell you, with mine owne eares.

In the yeare of our Lord God, 1581. on the fourteenth of October, there was a Glocestershire Gentleman examined [Page 349]in the Towne-Hall of North-hampton. M. Kirtland was then Mayor. The cause why hee was examined, was for that some of the Officers seeing him and a Woman that was in his company. stay in the Towne longer then Trauellers vse to doe, suspected that the Woman which stayed there so long in his company, was not his owne wife.

Being therefore questioned withall a­bout this matter, he answered: Indéede I am betrothed vnto her, and I thinke that I may lawfully marry her, though shee whom heretofore I tooke to wife bee yet liuing. The reason is, for that shee (I meane which was my first wife) was some­time my Fathers Harlot, by whom hee had three Children, and after that did enforce mee, beeing foure and twentie yeeres of age, to marry her, to the end I might be partaker of that which hee was minded to bestowe vpon her: that so hee might stoppe two gappes with one bush. So I marryed her, and after I had two Children by her, I was diuorced from her in Bishop Hoopers time: for the Law­yers said, it was not Matrimonium ab initio.

Afterwardes in Queene Maryes time, Bishop Brookes, who was great with [Page 350]my Father (being both Papists) perswaded me to take her againe. I did so, and had se­uen children more by her, and then turned her vp againe, and kept company with this Bridget Taylor, a mans daughter of Busheley.

What say you to this neighbour Romana, whose fruits were these? the father being a papist, constraineth the sonne to marry one, by whom he himselfe had three children; and after the diuorcement, a po­pish Bishop perswadeth the sonne to take her againe.

What say you, Ma. I promise you I was almost an ace out.

O you cannot heare on that side, now you are asleepe: but let vs passe ouer other mens faults, and looke to our owne. If any professor of the Gospel by his ill dea­ling be a stumbling-blocke in your way, go by it, and remember that we are bid to bee followers of God, as deare Children: And that our Sauior saith: Happy is he that shall not be offendedia me. Eph. 5.1. Math. 11.6. Let not mens faults keepe vs from hearing Christs voice. Good sheep will take their fodder though there be ne­uer so many pillards in the flocke, or though the sheepheard halt.

Your translations be not currant.

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Speake the truth M. Tractable. Is not that translation best which commeth nee­rest to the Hebrew, in the old Testament, the greatest part whereof was written in that tongue, and to the Greeke in the New?

They being the Fountaines, I sée no reason why I should not say yes. What then?

Can you shew where our Transla­tions doe vary from the originall in any chiefe poynt of our religion.

I cannot call things to remem­brance on a sodaine: Gen. 34.3. Ios. 24.31. yet this one place of the 7. of the Acts, I remember well where you translate Hamor [...], Hamor the the sonne of Sychem. But the word (sonne) is not in the Greeke: besides Hamor is di­uers times called in the old Testament the father of Sychem.

If your Latine translation had not Filij Sychem, you might haue been the bol­der to haue found fault with ours, but whe­ther Hamor were the Father, or the Sonne of Sychem, it neither maketh nor marreth our faith. It should seeme that as in that 7. of the Acts, Abraham is put for some of the house or posterity of Abraham, to wit, Ia­cob: so it may bee, that some which first [Page 352]translated tou suchem, finding in the third of Luke these words, beeing as men, supposed the sonne of Ioseph tou Heli, tou Mathat, tou Leui, &c. of Heli, of Mathat, of Leui, &c. meaning that Ioseph was the sonne of Heli, and Heli the sonne of Mathat, and Mathat the sonne of Leui, might also thinke that tou Sichem should bee translated the sonne of Sichem, forgetting that Chamor is found to be the sonne of Sichem ten times in Genesis 34. and once in Ioshua 24.32. Howsoeuer it came to passe, you may not deny this word (sonne) in some translations to bee printed in smaller letters. And your vulgar Edition hath a filijs Omor filij Sichem of the sonnes of Omer, the sonne of Sichem. But what else doe you obserue in our Transla­tions?

In the Psalme 105. according to the Hebrue, but in our Latine Translation, 104. we finde these words, Lo maru eth de­bario thus translated in the Psalter which you reade in your Church, they were not o­bedient to his word. But we reade it thus: Et non exacerbauit sermones suos: that is saith Ludane, non infideles fecit, hee made not his words vnfaithfull, he was faithfull in his word or promise. And Fryer Titell­man, sometimes a diuine reader in Louaine [Page 355]in his exposition which hee calleth Eluci­datio taketh these words to be spoken ei­ther by God, or by Pharaoh, and in respect of God he giueth this sence, non irritos fe­cit, &c. the Lord sp [...]ke not in vaine, but as he threatned Pharao by Moses and Aaron, ita factum fuit, so it came to passe. But as they might be referred to Pharaoh, hee ex­poundeth them thus: Non amara, neque blasphema loquutus est, Hee spake no bit­ter nor blasphemous words, but sought for pardon, and sending for Moses, hee desired to bee deliuered from the Plague, meaning here the plague of Darknesse, Exod. 10.21. Psal. 105.

You may see, if it please you to looke on that English Translation, printed Cum priuilegio. 1576. these words, Lo Ma­ru, &c. translated thus: They were not dis­obedient to his Commission. And in the Bible of the largest volume printed 1585. those words are Englished thus: they went not from his words. In both which trans­lations the verbe Maru is taken for the third person piurall, and not the singular, as in your Latine.

But the first of the two translati­ons named by you, doe English the 22. verse of the 37. Chapter of Isaiah thus: [Page 354] This is the word that, &c. He hath despised thée, and laughed thée to scorne, O daughter of Ierusalem, hee hath shaken his head at thee. But it should be thus: The virgin, the daughter of Sion hath despised thee (mea­ning the King of Ashur) and laughed thee to scorne: the daughter of Ierusalem hath shaken her head at thee.

In the last of these Translations which I named, that ouer-sight of the for­mer is corrected. But I maruell that in sear­ching for faults in Translations, you can­not, or will not see whst a number of faults some of the Learned haue noted in your old Latine Translations, differing so much from the Hebrew in the old Testament, and from the Greeke in the New. D. Whit Cō. 1. q. 2. ca. 11. pa 137. 138. A Lear­ned professor of Diuinity hauing occasion to search into these matters, after he hath set downe many faults found in your old Latine Edition, and in other places of the New Testament, so in the psalmes: And comming at last to the nintie psalme, hee saith Sunt huius Psalmi versus septemdecim, &c. There bee seauenteene verses in this psalme: and I dare bee bolde to say, there bee more faults in the Translation of this psalme, then there bee verses in the psalme.

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And in the same Chapter he saith: I­taque vere dici potest, non esse hos Dauidicos Psalmos, quos illi in suis sacris lectitant, atque cantitant, sed Graci Latinique interpretis erro­res. Therefore it may truely bee said, that the psalmes which they vsually reade and sing in their Seruice, are not Dauids psalms, but the errours of the Greeke and Latine Interpreter.

It were heere too long to recite all the faults he setteth downe in the twelfth chap­ter of that second question, where hee no­teth many places of the New Testament corrupted in the Latine Edition. Towardes the end of the Chapter hee saith, hee hath chosen a fewe out of manny, if hee should set downe all, hee should make a Volume. If you list to buy the Booke, it is Intituled: Disputatio de sacra scriptu­ra, &c.

Did not he which wrote that booke finde fault with them, Pag. 118. which put ipsa for ip­sum in the third of Genesis, verse 15?

Yes, for finding Hu in the Hebrew, and Autos in the Greeke. He saw there was no reason why it should bee translated ipsae, she, as if not Christ, but the blessed Vir­gin had broken the Serpents head. Speake your minde M, Tract. did she or our blessed [Page 354]Sauiour dash the Diuels power?

She brought forth him that did it.

We all agree in that, and therefore she may be wel called blessed, being prefer­red through the fauour of God to such an excellent office.

Me thinkes learned men that a­gree in this, that the holy Scriptures are penned by the holy Ghost, and contain such things as are true, should leaue publishing one anothers ouersights, or whatsoeuer you list to call it, and ioyne together in Christian and louing sort, to set forth a sound transla­tion. It is an easie matter to espy here and theee a broken quarrell in the windowes of a great building: yea and of a little house too. But to builde the whole house, and so to build it, as it may please euery mans eye that hath skill in building, is another maner of matter.

Yea Madame, if charity had once so possest our hearts, as to moue vs in a bro­therly sort to seeke for the truth, and to worship the fountaine of our life & light, as he might bee pleased with vs, we might sing: Ecee quam bonum, &c. Behold how good, Psal. 133. &c.

Before wee come to singing, let mee heare what men of your side say [Page 359]of Baptisme.

A reuerend Father of this Land, in one of his bookes saith thus: Since Chil­dren be defiled by Adam, B. B. if they may not be washed by Christ, the disobedience of man shall be mightier to condemnation then the grace of God, and the obedience of Christ to iustification, which the Scriptures reiect as a wicked absurdity Wherefore the Church absolutely and flatly may not assure saluation vnto children vnbaptized, lest they seeme naturally innocent, or ge­nerally sanctified without baptisme, albeit their parents desiring and seeking it, Note. if they be preuented by naturall necessity, we must leaue them to the goodnesse, and secret e­lection of God, not without hope, because in their parents there wanted not will, but an extremity disappointed them. And in the Children the let was weakenesse of Age, not wickednesse of heart. And so the Sa­crament omitted, not for any contempt of Religion, but by strictnesse of time. In which cases Saint Augustine saith, the want of baptisme may bee supplyed, if it please God, &c.

Doth not your allowed Catechisme hold Sacraments generally necessary to Saluation.

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Yes, for that which is ordained by Christ to confirme our faith, &c. may well bee counted needfull to Saluation gene­rally.

What saith your Caluin? is he of no request with you now?

I know in what request hee is. Iust cap 15. But thus hee writeth touching the matter wee haue in hand.

No small wrong is done to the Coue­nant of God, if wee doe not rest in it, as though it were weake in it selfe, whereas the effect thereof hangeth neither vpon Bapstime, nor vpon any other Additions. There is afterward added to it a Sacrament like a seale, not that it bringeth effectual­nesse to the promise of God, as to a thing weake of it selfe, but onely confirmeth it to vs. Whereupon it followeth, the Children of the faithfull are not therefore baptized, that they may then first bee made the Chil­dren of God, which before were stran­gers from the Church, Note. Not by [...]a­ [...]ure, but by promise. but rather that they bee therefore receiued by a solemne signe into the Church, because by the benefite of the promise they did already belong to the body of our Sau [...]our Iesus Christ, &c.

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And in the sixteenth Chapter hee saith, Baptisme, besides this, that it is a signe to testifie religion before men, sheweth first the cleansing of sinne, which we obtaine of the bloud of Christ; then the mortify­ing the flesh, which standeth vpon the par­taking of his death, by which the faithfull are regenerate to newnesse of lif [...], receiued into the fellowship of Christ. Further he saith: whatsoeuer agreeth with Circumci­sion, agreeth also with Baptisme.

• 1. The foundation in both is one, to wit, Christ.
• 2. The promises whereupon the power of the signes consist, are one, namely of the fatherly fauour of God: of the forgiuenesse of sinnes: of life euerlasting.
• 3. The thing figured is all one in both, to wit, regeneration.

What else haue you of his?

Fateor oblatam scandali occasionem, Epist▪ & resp si infans. &c. I confesse there is an occasion of scan­dall or offence offered to all the godly, if by thy slackenesse or negligence the in­fant depart without Baptisme. Wherefore not onely are they not to be borne withall, which neglect baptisme, but they also are not to be allowed, which through a certaine boasting, and for ostentations sake do long [Page 358]protract the administratiō of an holy thing.

But the infant by that meanes is depriued of the signe of health, to with Baptisme, yet I deny that his state is any thing the worse before God, for albeit Baptisme be a seale of our adoption, yet we are writtē in the book of life, both by the grace of God, and also by his promise. For tell mee for what cause our children are saued, but by that word, E­go sum Deus seminis tui, Gen▪ 17.7. I am the God of thy seed: and except that word did appertalne vnto them, they were not to bee admitted vnto Baptisme.

Now if their saluation stayeth it selfe on the promise of God, and that foundation bee fit of it selfe, wee are not to thinke that all children doe perish, that depart this life without Baptisme, for so vnder the com­mendation of that signe of the grace of God, God himselfe should be wronged and reproued, and wee should derogate from his truth as if our safety propped with his promise weare not sufficiently [...]orne vp. Sith then there is no contempt of Baptisme found in thee, the want thereof could not hurt the infant, which deceased before thou couldst conueniently offer it to Bap­tisme.

Then belike he would not forbid [Page 363]such to bee buryed among Christians: but saith hee nothing of baptizing of the children of those whom hee calleth Pa­pists?

Yes, I remember in a certaine Epistle to a friend of his, touching that matter he saith.

The promise not onely comprehendeth the issue of each faithfull man in the first degree, Pag. 322 in Folio. but is extended to a thousand gene­rations, whereby also it commeth to passe that the iuterruption of piety which was rife, or had spred farre in the Papacy, hath not taken away the force and efficacy of Baptisme: for the originall is to bee regar­ded, and the nature of Baptisme is to bee esteemed by the promise. Wee therefore doubt not that the progeny of great grand­fathers which were godly men doe belong to the body of the Church, though their grandfathers or fathers were Apostataes. These be the speaches of that Caluin, whose doctrine Deane Gifford calleth psuedneuan­gelium, a false Gospell, and saith that in ma­ny points, it is worse and more wicked then the Alcoron of the Turks: See the exact disou. p [...]inted sidce the fift [...]f Nou. 1605. pag. 2. & 3. but whatsoeuer any of them say, of this reuerend learned man, if you list to reade any of his workes, you shall finde that hee goeth not about to [Page 362]draw men to like of this or that point of doctrine, with shew of words onely, but setteth downe his reasons also.

If he should not do so, his doings were but dotage, in the iudgement of Saint Austin, who saith, Verba iactare, & nihil probare, Cònt, lit, petil, li, 2, ca. 34. quid est nisi delirare?

I pray you one word cozen, sith you haue named Saint Austin, tell me, whe­ther he were of this minde, that all which are baptized are saued?

I know hee thinketh hardly of such as depart this life without it, vrging much these words: Except a man be borne of water, and the Spirit, &c. taking y ^e word water, in another sense, then some doe; but what hee saith touching your question, is now out of my head, therefore I leaue it to M. Guid-well.

Writing against Chrestonius, hee saith: Baptismus est sacramentum nouae vitae ac salutis aeternae, quem multi habent non ad vitam aeternam, sed ad paenam aeteruam, non bene vtentes tanto bono.

I pray you English it I am neuer the neerer for the Latin.

What be you the better then, for [Page 363]hearing a Latine Masse, or a Latine Mat­tins.

It may bee we haue it in English now.

If you haue you may thanke the Protestants, which haue so oft vrged that of Paul, Let all things be done to edifying, 1. Cor. 14. and againe: yet had I rather in the Church to speake fiue words with mine vnderstanding, that I might also instruct others, &c.

Come I know what D. Harding saith of that matter, but let that goe and English S. Austins words.

Thus it is. Baptisme is a Sacra­ment of new life, and eternall saluation, the which many haue not to euerlasting life, but to euerlasting paine, not well vsing such an excellent thing, And in his first Booke against the same man, Aug. cont, Cres gram li. 1. ca. 34. he saith these words.

Quod licet sanctum sit neque vllo modo prae­termitendum, quoniam sacratissima significa­tione praepollet, quam multi cam tamen accipi­unt, non solum boni, qui secundum propositum vocati sunt, conformes imagini Filij Dei, sed eti­am ij qui regnum Dei non possidebunt, in quibus sicut dicit Apostolus, & ebriosi, & auari nume­rantur.

The which thing speaking of visible Bap­tisme [Page 362]although it be holy, and by no meanes to bee omitted, because it hath a most sacred signification, yet very many take it; not one­ly the good which are called of purpose, conformed to the image of the Sonne of God, but also such as shall not possesse the kingdome of God, among which, as the A­postle saith, are reckoned both drunkard and the couetous. In the twentieth one booke of the Citty of God, he asketh what it auaileth any man to be baptized if he bee not iustified: Did not hee which said nisi quis renatus, &c. Except a man bee borne againe of water, and of the spirit, hee cannot enter into the Kingdome of God, say also: Except your righteousnesse exceede the righteousnesse of the Scribes and Pharisies, yee shall not enter into the Kigdome of heauen? Cur illud timendo, &c. why are many through feare of the first speach carefull to be baptized, and not ma­ny through feare of the latter carefull to be iustified? and writing against Petilians let­ters he saith: Li. 2.19. Cont. lit. Pet. that Baptisme being but one, the iust haue it to saluation, the vniust to de­struction.

Inough of that, now tell mee I pray you, if hee affirme any to haue had the holy Ghost before Baptisme.

Hee affirmeth so much of that, as [Page 367]he hath warrant from the Canonicall Scriptures: for in the saide second Booke, Ca 39. against Petilian he saith, In Centum viginti homines, Acts 1, 15. & 2.4. &c. Vpon those hundred and twen­ty men the holy Ghost came, without im­position of any mans hand. But vpon Cor­nelius, and those that were with him, Etiam pruisquam Baptizarentur, A &, 10, 44, Euen before they were Baptized.

By the Holy Ghost (in those pla­ces) may be vnderstood, some guifts of the Spirit, as to Prorhecie, to speake with Tongues, &c. For in the 2. of the Acts, the 4. verse, it is saide, They were all filled with the holy Ghost, and began to speake with other tongues, as the Spirit gaue them vtte­rance. And in the tenth Chapter we reade, that while Peter spake these words (mea­ning those words in the verse 43. To him also, giue all the Prophets witnesse, that through his name, all that beleeue in him, shall receiue remission of sinnes. with other verses afore going) the holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word: For (saith the 46. verse) They heard them speake with tongues, and magnifie God.

Sith you are gone so farre in this matter, I pray you Maister Guidewel tel me, were are all the Elect baptized, I meane since [Page 366]Christ his time, for before they vsed Cir­cumcision my Couzen saith.

I might tell you many things, if I were one of Gods Priuy-Councell, so far as his diuine Maiesty would suffer me. He knoweth who be his, baptized, or not bap­tized; and whereas you say they vsed cir­cumcision before Christs time, as I grant it to be true: So I may boldly say, that all the Elect before Christs time, were not cir­cumcised. For I doubt not but Abel, Noa, and some others, which left this life ere circumcision was spoken of to Abraham, were and are of the number of the Elect. And who is able to proue, that all those Children whome Herod commaunded to be slaine, were eight daies old? if they were not, then they dyed ere time of circumcisi­on appointed by the lawe came, and none of them all was baptized with water; yet I dare not say none of them were elected.

They had the baptisme of bloud.

I reade in the Scripture of bapti­zing with water, and with the holy Ghost: And Saint Mathew saith, Herod sent forth and slewe: he doth not say baptized all the Male Children, in their bloud: But since some auncient and learned Diuines haue so spoken, I meane, doe say there is such a [Page 367]baptisme of bloud, it is not fitte it should be gainsaide, vnlesse it were against the analo­gie of faith.

But what doe you meane to aske, whe­ther any since Christs time died before bap­tisme, that were Elected? doe you thinke none are saued that be not baptized? Iohn Baptist was in Christs time, we doe not read that he was baptized: Mathew, Marke, Luke, & Iohn say, that Iohn Baptist said to others, I baptize you with water: But we reade nothing of his being baptized, nor of those to whome Christ said, Goe ye vnto all the World, teach, &c. Some write, that in the Primitiue Church, they baptized but twise a yeare: Shall we say that none that died betwixt those times were elected? I dare not say so,

If baptisme be come into the place of circumcision, and God threatned to cutte off euery Man Child that was vn­circumcised, doe we erre when we say, the vncircumcised are cutte off?

I take this (vnder correction be it spoken) to be vnderstood of such as were of discretion, and vnderstood who com­maunded circumcision, which in Genesis is called the Couenant, and the Signe of the Couenant, and also knewe the [Page 366]couenant, and the Signe: Otherwise why are these words, He hath broken my Coue­nant added in the end of that verse you ci­ted? Alasse how can it be saide, that an In­fant, or any that wanteth the knowledge of God, hath so broken the couenant of God, that he deserueth to be cut off from his people. The Parents, or other friends, that know what God required to be done the 8. day, and despised it, may iustly be saide to haue broken that couenant; If any list to compare this 14. verse of the 17. of Genesis, with the 30. and 31. verses of the 15. of Numbers, shall see that I haue some warrant for this, which I say in that 15. of Numbers, we reade, that if any one Person sinne through Ignorance, he shall bring a shee Goate of a yeere olde, for a Sinne-offering, and the Priest shall make an atonement for the ignorant Person, &c. Now marke what followeth in verse the 30. But the Person that doth ought presumptuously whether he be borne in the Land, or a Stranger, the same blasphemeth the Lord. Therefore that person shall be cut off from among his People, because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his Commandement. That person shall be vt­terly cut off, his iniquity shall be vpon [Page 389]him: Here you see such are threatned to bee cut off, as breake the commande­ment with an high hand, which no infant doth.

It is some-what that you say, but I would know of you, whether you thinke any of those which were circum­cised in Moses time, to haue beene also bap­tized?

What moueth you to aske that question?

Because Saint Paul saith: that all our fathers were vnder the cloude, 1. Cor 10.1▪ and all passed through the sea, and were all bap­tized vnto Moses, in the cloude and in the sea.

Though Saint Paul so speake, yet I hope you thinke not, that the sea-wa­ter did so wet those fathers, as the waters of Iordan did wet those whom Iohn did babtize, or as that water in which Philip baptized the Funuch. Act. [...]. Nay they were not wet so much as the weake infants, which haue a little water powred on their heads: for it is said: the children of Israel went through the middest of the Sea, vpon dry ground, Exo, 1.22, and the waters were a wall vnto them, on the right hand, and on the left hand. So that S. Paul in saying they were [Page 390]baptized vnto Moses (that is as some inter­pret by his Ministery) in whose time most things that were done, were shadowes and figures of things fulfilled in time of grace, ment as I take it, that their passage through the sea without hurt, and so set free from their enimies, which pursued them, was a figure of forgiuenesse of our and their sinne and of our and their deliuerance, from the hands of that hellish Pharao, and all that hurt vs: whereof as wee haue a pledge and sure seale in Baptisme, so they by that cloud and passage. Saint Austin saith, this was alius baptismus, Cont. lit, Pet, li. 2. pa. 37. another Baptisme, in which the Apostle saith our fathers were Bapti­zed in the cloud, and in the sea, when by Moses, they passed the red sea. For the law and the Prophets, saith he, vntill Iohn Bap­tist, had Sacraments, foreshewing a thing to come; but the Sacraments of our time doe contest that to bee come, which these foretold should come. Some of the late wri­ters say, that the cloude and the passage through the sea were instar baptismi, as it were a Baptisme, that hereby the Lord which had taken them in his tuition did assure them, that he would preserue them, and that besides the earthly commodity of keeping them from the heate of the Sunne, [Page 391]and of directing them in their iourney, they had in that cloude an argument or signe of the spirituall life, so that there was a two­fold vse of that cloude, as also of their pas­sing through the sea.

It should seeme by these speaches of yours and others, that all good, and bad, were baptized in that cloude, and sea.

Marke what I say. Albeit all the Israelites which saw the Egyptians march after them, went through the midst of the sea, yet by those words (were all baptized) only such are meant, as vnto whom Manna was spirituall meate, and the rocke spiritu­all drinke, as Saint Austin seemeth to grant. Aug. in Io▪ 6 tract. 26. Then though all that entred into the sea, passed through on dry ground, yet none but the faithfull (which saw the pro­mises a farre of beleeued and saluted them) were assured of full redemption, Heb. 11, 1 [...] and of washing away of the gu [...]lt of their sinnes by the Messias, which was then to come: And to the end Saint Austins minde in this point may the more appeare, I will set downe some of his speaches, touching some words of our Sauiour in the sixt of Iohn: Ioh 6.44 Your fathers did eate Manna in the wilder­nesse and are dead.

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What cause is there (saith Saint Austen to the Iewes) why you should bee proud? they did eate Manna and are dead. Why did they eate and died, because they beleeued that which they saw, and vnderstood not that which they saw not, therefore your fa­thers because you are like them. For as touching this visible and bodily death (bre­thren) we also dye, that eate of the bread which came downe from heauen: And a little after, But as touching that death, (meaning eternall death) whereof the Lord terrifying spake, when hee said: These mens fathers are dead, Moses eate Manna, Aaron eate Manna, Phin [...]es eate Manna, and many others there which pleased God did eate and died not, why? ‘ Quia visibi­lem cibum intellexerunt spiritualiter, spiri­tualiter esurierunt, spiritualiter gustauerunt vt spiritualiter satiarentur: Because they vnderstood the visible meate spiritually, they spiritually hungred for it, they spiri­tually tasted it, that they might bee spiri­tually filled with it, For wee also hodie to day, or now in the time of the Gospell, haue receiued visible meate, but the Sa­crament (saith he) is one thing, the ver­tue of the Sacrament is another thing, many take or receiue from the Altar and [Page 393]dye, and euen in taking dye. And heere-hence it is, that the Apostle saith, They eate and drinke to themselues, Iudicium iudgement, or damnation: For the Lords morsell was not poyson to Iudas, yet hee tooke it, and when hee had taken it the enemy entred into him, not be­cause hee tooke an euill thing, sed quia bonum malè malus accepit, But be­cause hee beeing a bad man tooke a good thing in a bad sort. Looke to it then bre­thren, panem caelestem spiritualiter māducate, innocentiam ad altare portate: that is, eate the heauenly bread spiritu­ally, bring innocency to the Altar. Thus hee counselleth such as minde to come to y ^e Altar, Tract. 26. de ca. 6.10. which twise together in the same treatise he calleth the Lords Table, say­ing: the Sacrament of this thing, that is of the vnity of the body and bloud of Christ some where dayly, &c, is prepared in Dominica Mensa, in the Lords Table, Et de mensa Dominica sumitur, and taken from the Lords Table. Hee counselleth such I say, before they come there, to marke what they say in that prayer, Forgiue vs our trespasses, or debts, as wee forgiue them, &c. If thou [Page 394]forgiuest (saith he) thou shalt be forgiuen, come secure and safe, meaning with a good conscience, panis non venenum est, the bread is not poyson, but see thou forgiue, for if thou doe not, thou lyest vnto him, whom thou deceiuest not: thou maist lye to God, but thou canst not deceiue God.’ But to come to that which chiesly now I would shew out of that Tract, touching these words: [...].5. catabanon this is the bread descending, or (as Saint Austin saith) which descendeth from heauen: This bread (saith hee) Manna, did signifie this bread the Altar of God sig­nified: those were Sacraments in their signes diuers, but in the thing which is signified paria sunt, 1. Cor. 10. they are like. Heare the Apostle: I would not (saith he) haue you ignorant brethren, that all our fathers were vnder the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and were all baptized vnto Moses, (your vulgar edition) hath in Moyse, citton Mosen. 1. Cor. 10.3. in Mo­ses, in the cloud and in the sea: and did all eate the same spirituall meat. The same spi­rituall meate indeed, saith Saint Austin nam [...] corporalem alteram, for another bodily meate, for the Manna: nos aliud, wee another thing, but the same spiri­tuall meate, that wee eate, sed patres nostri, non Patres illorum, but our [Page 395]fathers, not their fathers, quibus nos similes sumus, &c. to whom we are like, not to whom they were like; meaning though the vnbeléeuing Iewes then, and such as abide not in Christ, nor haue Christ abiding in them now, (of whom he speaketh afterwards) had then, or haue now the Sa­crament of the body and bloud of Christ; which Sacrament he calleth bodily and vi­sible meate, and saith, it is pressed with the téeth in a carnall sort, and visibly; yet they do not eats his flesh, nor drinke his bloud spiritually: for that is done of them which abide in Christ, and in whom Christ abi­deth. Read the whole tract, M. Tractable.

I maruell our Sauiour should rather say, Take and eate, &c. then looke on a Cruci­fix in remembrance of mee.

Our Sauiour knew y ^e Images set vp in the sight of the simple, & sooner made Idols then bread that is eaten, vnlesse any would be so bold to teach, and so foolish to beléeue, that bread is God, because he called it his body. Besides this, the Sacrament being a seale of the promise, and taken so soone after these words: This is my body, which is giuen for you, &c. doe stirre vs vp as much as such things may, by faith, to féede on the body and bloud of Christ, [Page 396]which worthily eaten and drunke, do nou­rish vs to eternall life, as Bread and Wine doe strengthen and comfort vs in this life.

Maister Guidewel, you seeme to speake many good things, but I would heare one substantiall Argument out of a­ny one of the Fathers against Transubstan­tiation.

Yee shall. Whosoeuer commen­deth his body and bloud in those things which are brought together into one, con­sisting of many Cornes, and many Grapes, commendeth them not onely in that which is called Accidents, as the forme, the co­lour and taste of Bread and Wine, but al­so in the substance, and subiect, in which those Accidents haue their beeing. But our Sauiour commended his Body and Bloud in such things as consisted of many Cornes and many Grapes. Ergo he com­mended them in things substantiall and not in Accidents wanting their substance.

I deny the minor.

If you deny that Christ commen­ded his body and bloud in such things as consist of many Cornes, and many Grapes. I haue S. Augustine against you: for he (on the fixth of Iohn) saith, that our Lord Ie­sus [Page 397]Christ commended his body and bloud, Aug. Ioan 6. tract, 26, in those things, which beeing many, are brought together into some one thing, say­ing: Let them be the body of Christ, if they will liue of the Spirit of Christ. Aug. in Ioan tract, 26, Nam aliud in vnum ex multis granis conficitur & constat, aliud in vnum ex mul­tis acinis confluit: For one thing consi­sting of many Cornes, is wrought, or made into one: and another thing sloweth toge­gether into one, consisting of many clusters. Now take the meate and drinke spoken of in that sixth of Iohn in what sence you wil: but tell me how we may haue a thing that consisteth of many Cornes, that is bread without the very meale, or very substance of the very Corne. I call it meale for their sakes who do not well vnderstand the diffe­rence betwixt the substance & accidents, al­though I know, that neither the meale, nor the bread is séene, but ratione accidentis, by reason of the colour, &c.

I grant it is Bread and Wine before the blessing and consecrating, not after.

This answere will not serue your turne, nor yet your saying. It is done by miracle, and power diuine, which is your vltimum refugiū, your last refuge: for Christ commended not his Body to his Disciples till after hee had blessed and broken, as you [Page 398]may sée in that vulgar Edition, which you chiefely regard: Et manducantibus illis ac­cepit Iesus panem & benedicens, hee vseth the present tense, because Latine Articles haue no Participles, Preters, or Aorists, as the Gréeke hath, Fregit & dedit eis. And they eating, or as they did eate, Iesus tooke bread, and blessing, or hauing blessed, hee brake, and gaue to them, Et ait, sumite, hoc est corpus meum. And he said: Take yee, this is my body. Where you sée that trans­station leaueth out the word Comedite, Eate yee, Mar. 14.22. which Erasmus hath, because hee findeth in that place of Saint Marke, not onely [...], but also [...], Take yee, eate yee.

But I maruell Erasmus translateth Eulogesas, cum gratias egisset.

It may be, for that hee found the word Eulogesas hauing blessed but once, to wit, in Saint Marke; Eucharistesas, ha­uing giuen thankes, Mar. 14.22. Mat. 26, 26.27. Mar. 14.23. Luke 22.17.19. 1. Cor. 11.24 some some sire times, twice in Matthew; once in Marke before the gi­uing of the Cuppe, where your vulgar E­dition also hath gratias agēs giuing thanks; twise in Luke, and once in Saint Paul; I meane where all these speake of the Lords Supper.

I maruell why you call it the Lords [Page 399]Supper rather then the Masse.

Because it was instituted at sup­per time, and that which Saint Paul cal­leth Curiacon Deipnon, your vulgar E­dition translateth Dominicam Coenam, the Lords Supper.

Is that true Cozen?

Yes.

He may not deny it no more then he may deny that Saint Austin saith, Locutio de gen. Mul­tum haec locutio notanda est, &c. This ma­ner of speaking is much to bee noted, when some things signifying, are called by the names of the things which they signifie.

Herehence it is that the Apostle saith, 1. Cor, 10.4. and the rocke was Christ, hee doth not say, the rocke doth signifie; noting that to bee his meaning, that the rocke doth signifie Christ, though he said, the rocke was Christ, euen as, though it bee said This is my Couenant, Gen. 17, 10. it is the Lords Passeouer. Ex. 12, 11 Gen. 41.26. The thrée bran­ches are thrée dayes. Gen. 40.12. Eze. 37, 11 Reu. 1, 20, Reu, 12.15.16. The seuen Starres, are the Angels of the seuen Churches. The seuen Candle-stickes are the seuen Chur­ches. The ten hornes which thou sawest, are ten Kings. The waters which thou sa­west, &c. are people & multitudes. The ten [Page 400]Hornes, &c. are they that shall hate the Whore. The Woman which thou sawest, is the great Cittie, which reigneth ouer the Kings of the earth: Yet, by is, and are, is ment, doe signifie.

But what do you bring out of any Fathers, touching This is my Body.

Saint Augustine sayth, The Lord doubted not to say, Hoc est Corpus meum, Cum signum darit Corporis sui, This is my Body, when he gaue a signe of his Body.

I thinke you found these words in the conference had in the Tower, with our Campion, the 23. of September in the afternoone, 1581.

Though I haue seene that confe­rence, yet I found these words not onely there, but in S. Austin his own booke, against Adimantus, a disciple of Manicheus, chap 12: The Manichies (as apeareth by y ^e chapter) would needs find a [...]arre betwixt that place in the old Testament, where bloud is for­bidden to be eaten, because it is Anima, the life, or the soule of the flesh, and that place of y ^e new Testament, where we are forbid­den to feare them y ^e kill the Body, but can­not hurt the Soule; herehence they reason thus, If the bloud be y ^e soule, how is it, that men haue such power ouer it, &c. they cast it [Page 401]to Dogges, to Foules, they poure it on the ground, they mingle it with dirt, and mire: They adde also this, that the Apostle saith, Flesh & Bloud shall not possesse the king­dome of God. Then if y ^e bloud be the soule (say they) then no Soule shall be found able Regnum dei adipisci, to attaine to the Kingdome of God. To this cauill S. Austin answereth, first in effect thus, That they cannot shew in any booke of the old Law, where the Soule of man is said to be Bloud. And afterwards, towards the middle of the Chapter, he hath these words, For of that which is written, Sanguinem pecoris ani­mam eius esse, that the bloud of a Beast is y ^e Soule thereof; besides that which I haue said before, y ^e it pertayneth nothing to me, Quid agatur de pecoris anima. what becō ­meth of y ^e soule of a Beast, I may also inter­pet that precept, In signo esse positum, to be put in y ^e signe, or to be vnderstod of y ^e signe, as it S. Austin should say: whereas it is for­bidden in y ^e lawe, to eate bloud, because it is the life, or soule: By saying it is the life, he meaneth it is y ^e signe of life, Nonenim dubi­tauit dominus dicere hoc est corpus meum, cum signum daret corporis sui: For our Lord doubted not to say, this is my Body, when he gaue a signe of his body, & touching [Page 402]that other place: Flesh and bloud shall not inherit the kingdome of God; After he hath saide somewhat of the change, which shall be in the resurrection, where they marry not, but are as the Angels, he commeth at length to these words of the Apostle, For this cor­ruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortall immortality.

I should be more easily drawen to fauour this your opinion, if I could heare that Christs Vickar did fauour it.

You talke much of Christ his Vi­car. Doe you receiue, or refuse any doctrine, according as this or that man, of whome you haue a good opinion liketh, or dis [...]yketh it? You should rather search whether the word of God, whereon your faith ought to be grounded, doth warrant it, yea, or no? As all Kings, so all Bishops of Rome are not of one minde in euery thing. If you tye your faith to the Coach of mens opynions, then when that Coach runs eastward, your fayth must runne with it, if that runne westward, then your faith must runne with it, if that runne westward, then your faith runneth y ^e way, vp hill, and downe hill, turning▪ & winding, as the Coach goes.

We tye not our faith to any Coach, but to the Chaire wher Christs vicar sitteth.

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Then you must tye it to the King of Brittains Chaire, for he is Christs vicar here.

Haue you read of any Bishop of Rome, that confessed so much?

I read, that in the yeere of our Lord 180. Lucius was ordained King of the Brit­taines, & that he in the 8. yeare of his reigne sent by his Ambassadours louing Letters to Elutherius, then Bishop of Rome, desiring him to send him some deuout and learned men, by whose instruction, both he, and his people might be taught the faith, and religi­on of Christ: whereof Elutherius being very glad, sent into Britain two famous Clearks, which brought with them from y ^e Bishoppe a Letter, directed to the King, the Tenor whereof is this.

Bede cited by Graston in his Abrid. fo. 11, Ye haue receiued the Kingdome of Brit­taine by Gods mercy, both the new Testa­ment, and the old, out of the same by Gods grace: by the aduise of your Realme, take a lawe, and by the same (through Gods suffe­rance) rule your Kingdome of Brittaine; for in that Kingdome you are Gods Vicar.

I promise you Maister Guidewell, I doubt whether the Pope will yeeld to that now.

Whether he will or no, it is well knowne how farre foorth godly Kings, na­med [Page 404]in the Scripture, haue medled in mat­ters of religion. And such as bee any thing acquainted with S. Austin, know that hee saith: Contra Cres­con. c. 51, l. 3. In hoc Reges sicut eis diuinitus prae­cipitur Deo seruiunt, in quantum Reges sunt, &c. Herein Kings, as it is commanded them by God, do serue God in that they are Kings, if in their Kingdomes they com­mand good things, and forbid bad, not one­ly which pertaine to the society of men, Ve­rum etiam quae ad Diuinam religionem, but also to the religion of God.

Well, for these matters, you and my Cozen may talke at more leasure if you come againe after dinner. I will craue your answere to one question more before wee part.

I would wee might so part once, as wee might depart friends, and faithfull, and louing brethren and sisters in Christ.

Amen.