what Theophilus God saue you, howe is your there?

Euen better then I am worthy brother Eusebius. I thanke you for that you would inquier.

What man why saye you so?

Because I am euill of my selfe and yet my Lord rewardeth me with good thynges.

Lo nowe commeth to my remembraunce thynges that I haue been oftentymes desirous to talke with you therein. But be ye nowe at leasure, or whether bee ye going?

Surely into y ^e feldes for to take the ayer.

Neuer in better season, I wyll goe wyth you euery fote: peraduenture ye maye put me from doutes, wherein my head hath ben often troubled, and of a long tyme I haue determyned to talke with you therein.

What thynges are they ye meane?

I wil tell you. Ye knowe well there hath been great dys­sension as wel among y ^e learned, as other, about Religion a greate whyle. The one Is called the olde mumsimus, the other the newe sumpsimus the one a Catholike, the other a protestaunt, and the one a papist, the other an heretike, and such lyke, which ought not to be me thynketh among Christians specially beyng of one nacyon and contree, who should loue together as brethren, [Page] now for that our frendshyp hath been of longe continuaunce and youre honestye to me so well knowē, doutles brother Theo. I am sorye y ^t you shoulde be noted to be of any euil opinion, and not suche as I mought w ^tout daunger frequent and vse your company for assuredly there is no man otherwise that I desyer more to be conuer­saunt withal then with you. And now the daū ­ger is suche, not onely towardes God, but also to y ^e superiours, Ring, Quene and maiestrates that of force I am constrayned more oftener to leue youre company, then gladly I woulde, If I mought safly vse the same. And thys is my grefe the which If I could I woulde surely re­moue. And If I were able, I would perswade you to conformyte wyth vs in religion In such wyse as we mought during our liues continew together our frendshyp vnuiolated.

Your louing kindnes and frendship towardes me (bro­ther Eusebius) I thankefullye embrace. And your approued honesty moueth me to seake all meanes with you lykewyse to continewe thys oure wonted frendshippe and familiaritie. But there is a God hath created vs, vnto whom we owe a deuty, which must be done, notwithstan­dyng all frendshippe or obedience vnto man, and whereas you feare the daunger towardes God, for myne opinion. If it pleased God I would there were no more daunger otherwise, and then would not I dout the continuaunce of our frendship. For as touchyng myne opinion in religion, I am righte well assured that it is grounded vpon the infallible verite of goddes most sacred worde or holy scriptures. From the [Page] which If I should start backe for y ^e loue of frēdship or for feare of mē it were as much as to de­ny y ^e lord my god, which ye know no good man wil doe.

Yet but heare me Theophi. We doe not disalow holy scriptures neyther doe we deney the lorde but confesse both. But we doe sift out errours, which light persons haue brought in by misvnderstanding the holy Scriptures, and so bryng in againe y ^e true light of the same.

In dede so you say but how doe you proue it I would fayne here?

Nay alas brother Theophilus ye knowe I am not so farre lear­ned as to dispute the matter.

surely you are as wel able to make an argument as I am able to answere to the same. For I am no schole mā, but for the satisfying of euery mans conscyence and for discharge of myne owne, I alwayes seake vnderstanding, least by my to much sym­plenes or rather neglygence, I moughte be de­ceaued, when I thinke my selfe most sure.

In that I cannot discōmend you, but then ye know they haue been disputed withall at ful, so largely as they coulde wishe or desier, but nothynge can preuayle.

I praye you where was that disputatiōs ye speake of?

Forsoth they were had in the conuocation house, howbeit for that they made their boast that those men were but of the youngest sorte, and yet they did so well there, how much better was it supposed the aū cyent learned should doe? Vpon thys report I suppose they prouided the disputacions in ox­forde where the beast learned of your side were appoynted and disputed: and yet god knoweth they were cōuicted and ouer come: for they wer [Page] able In maner to make no repugnaunce.

But I pray you brother Euse. were you there at y ^e hearing of thys disputacions In Oxforde?

No verely that I was not.

but haue you sene the copye of the same that was drawen out by theyr notaryes and geuē to y ^e sensours for wit­nessyng of the trouth herein?

Neyther that haue I sene In dede, but beeyng at supper a­mong my frendes on a tyme I heard them talke of it In suche wyse as I tolde you beefore.

But I praye you tell me one thyng, was not the relacion made by a prest?

Yes doutles that it was, and it was in a priestes house, I maye say to you, a canon, one that may dispend foure hundreth marke by the yere but what thē? they sayd it was trewe.

in dede if they sayd so, yt must nedes be true, for they cannot lye, but yet this much I wil say vnto you brother Euse. I was there presente at the doing of thys geare, and heard al for the most part with mine eares: the which thing would god you and all honest men had heard and I dare say you would haue lamented the state of those .iii. men whych wer appointed to answere for theyr lyues, although otherwyse ye mislyke theyr Iudgemente in religion. And yet I cannot tell what God shoulde haue wrought In you neyther by hearyng therof: for like as I did knowe dyuers more con­fyrmed in the fayth they had before receaued, so heard I of none that by the dysputaciō were with drawen from the same: alas good menne they coulde bee suffered to dooe no otherwyse, but as the master wyll suffer hys seruaunt or scholar to speake what he list to heare, & while [Page] he wyll heare hym and no more.

What saye you man? It was a free disputacion, and they spake and did what they would, as touchynge the order of disputacion: this went the reporte.

Wel what soeuer the reporte was I wyll tell you some parte of the order therof, wherein I wil not lie vnto you one word: These doctours that came from london & Cambrige, of whiche doctor Weston was cheffe, for that he was proloquutor of the conuocacion house, these men I say came to oxforde thys the frydaye, and the saterdaye folowyng were the .iii. prysoners called forth before them and appointed to dispute the monday, tuesdaye, and weddensdaye folo­wyng, and beefore that I dare saye they knewe of no disputacion, and assone as the disputacion was appointed, Immediatly were they separa­ted and coulde not conferre nor talke together: theyr owne bokes that they had laboured, and there commun places that they had gathered, was all taken from them when they came firste to pryson, and when they shoulde come foorthe to dispute they were brought wyth bylles and glayues, as if they should haue gone to hāging: and there must one of thē alone aunswere some tymes .vi. speaking to hym at one time, and euer would they crye vpon him to cutte short, for the tyme was spent. And whē as it came to master Rydleys torne, he had prouided hys suppositi­on, thinkynge to haue reade it, but they woulde not suffer hym. And yet he alledged for himself the order of the scoles, and that al that litel time he had bestowed in deuising the same, wherein he mynded to haue declared the substaunce of his assercion of hys fayth and beleue touching [Page] that matter then in question, but he coulde not be suffred in any wise, and sondry tymes in hys talke they woulde take hym at aduauntage, and when he woulde open hys meaninge hys tale could not be heard of the audiēce, but yet there were that noted hys woordes. Nowe I praye you what indifferency is thys? a man wythout study, wythout bokes, without cōference with other, and almost without hearing shal dispute for hys lyfe? And they so many clappyng, at one tyme agaynst one poore man, alas it was a grefe. And yet for all thys I warrant you they be not hasty in puttyng forth the disputations in print, as much as they bragge I dare say they wyl neuer put them forth.

But is thys true that ye haue now sayd in thys matter?

Yea as trewe as god lyueth. And I dare saye If ye talke with the doctours themselues that dispu­ted agaynst them they can deny none of al thys that I haue said: wel they may couler it w ^t some other thyng, but assuredly they cannot alter it, it is so openly knowen.

Well brother Theo­philus cōsider y ^t whē men be in authorite, and haue the gouernaūce In theyr hand, some what they will doe. And consider also that in kynge Edwardes tyme your doctours dealte in lyke case with our learned men, And therfore blame thē not though they now show a litell of y ^e same curtesy againe.

Nay then marke what I wil saye vnto you brother Eusebius. And tell me whether the case bee lyke. In king Edwardes tyme there was appoynted a disputaciō wher­in were .iii. of your learned against one of ours they had leysure as muche as they woulde axe, [Page] they were not taken frō theyr bokes, neither put in pryson, they mought cōferre wyth whō they would, and go whether they would, they were not so much as checkte for defendyng their opi­nion. Another tyme also I doe remember wel, that before Kyng Edward died, I was present at the disputacion In oxford, where one Grene waye (a bacheler of diuinitie and the vice presydēt of Corporis Christi Colledge) aunswered and hys question was, whether Christes natural body mought be in more places then one.

there was one of the opponentes that openlye professed hymselfe to bee of a contrarie mynd, and so disputed, and yet I neuer knewe so much as one euil woorde spoken to hym. Note nowe the tiranny that is vsed of the one syde whyche Chryst neuer taught. And marke there great gē ­tlenes agayne of the other syde. And this were inough almost to perswade an honest heart.

Surely brother. Theophi. I woulde Charitie mought rule thys matter, for I doe verely bee­leue that if wyth loue and frendeshyp they dyd gentely commen together of these matters they should much rather agree then by suche proude disputations or rather scoldyng and brawling one with another. For to what purpose serueth thys cankored malice but the one to seke the o­thers destruction. And while we goe about mischeffe to eche other, there be that wyl destroye vs both: and then we haue spun a fayer threde.

In dede your gathering standeth with good reason, and not without good authoryte of the holy Scriptures. For thys sayeth the Lord Iesus: Euery kyngdome within it selfe deuydede [Page] shalbe destroied, Math. 12 Luke. 11. Gala. 5. and euery house deuided with in it selfe, shall not stande. And Saincte Paule sayeth also if ye bite one another, take hede lest ye be consumed one of an other.

I praye you brother The. In what place is it y ^e Christ saith Euery kyngdome deuided wythin it selfe shall be destroyed.

In the .12. Chapter of Mathes gospel and in the .11. of Luke likewise.

Now surely I am affrayed lest those wordes are to trewe, and lest we shal haue to much experiēce of y ^e same.

Wel brother Euse. You nede not care, for you are a good Catholyke man, and therefore no harme can happen to you, for the game goeth on your syde. As for me ye know I am halfe suspected and more. And therefore I loke when I shalbe called forth corānobis and so to y ^e fyer, a cruell death I tell you.

Wil ye beleue me brother Theophi. As god helpe me I am none of those that desireth the hurt of my neybour, and I tel you truth, I lyke thys religion the worsse for there crueltie. For vndoutedly If the matter were in my hande there shoulde none be put to death except he would obstinat­ly rebell by commocions, or otherwyse moleste a whole commen wealth, as for hys conscyence let hym discharge that betwene God and hym selfe, he should chose for me, for any trouble I would worke him, for me thinkes it standes not w ^t Charitie. 1. Cor. 1 [...].

I mistrust you not brother Euse. I know you to wel and like you the better. And in dede sainct Paul sayth: If I had fayth that, I could moue mountaynes out of there places, If I had not loue, I am nothyng. And Chryste hym selfe saieth also: Iohn. 14 by thys shal al men knowe [Page] that ye are my disciples, yf ye loue one another, the which loue springeth from a faith vnfained in the promise of god, and causeth good workes to procede, as the frutes come of the buddinges of the tree.

What bee those good workes ye meane?

Mary callyng vpon the name of the lyuing god, by diligent, feruent, and continual prayer, in watchyng the deuill, that neyther by the lust of thys fleshe neyther yet by ambicion, and coueteousnes, of thys wycked world, or by any other meanes, he should ouercome vs, and subdue vs vnto synne. And therfore as we feel our selues prone, and apte to euil, so stil to mor­tifie these members of ours, by fastynge, and prayer with such like Godly exercises, to visete and comforte our nedy neybours and so forth.

But I pray you now, doe you speake as you thinke, or els Iest ye with me to see what I wil say?

Nay, I speake it with my heart, as tru­ly as God lyueth.

Then haue I heard fouell lyes among them that would be accounted ho­nest and wel learned. But seing we haue entred so farre in the matter I praye you certyfye me of the truth in this point, whether it be so or no: that I be not deceaued therin, for the satisfying of my conscyence and for quieting the same, for as for me although I be not of y ^e new learning, yet am I not so addicted to the olde, but that I would be glad to here and reason the matter, to thende I promyse you I mought helpe to bring loue amonges our selues.

A godly purpose I assure you, but what are those lyes then ye heard of late, I praye you let vs heare them.

Nay soft I sayd not precysely they were lyes, [Page] but if that be trew, which you say, then are they lies in dede, but say on I pray you, what was that true tale then:

Syr thys it was tolde me, y ^t you of this new learnyng, dyd boast your selues much of fayth and that onely fayth dyd iustifie: but good workes ye cared not for, ney­ther regarded at all, neyther prayer nor fastyng nor almes dede wil ye allow, goddes seruice ye despyse and the ministers therof with a thou­sande lyke, I cannot wel remember all nowe.

I durst lay a wager before hande that thys also was a Priestes tale.

Now surelye it was so in dede, what a Goddes name howe are you so wel acquaynted with Priestes tales?

Yes I know them wel and theyr master also but bro­ther Eusebius thys is no straunge thynge, for there is no sermō almost in these daies but these tales bee in the pulpet as thicke as hoppes and many lies more to: the which whē I heare it maketh my hearte mourne to see their spyte, y ^t they haue no other way to worke their anger vpō vs but with opē lies in an opē audience and yet the shame would redounde to themselues, if there were any shame in them. For the moste parte of men doe knowe most certenly that they doe lye. If they were of god as they pretende, or if they meant the preseruacion of a commō wealth and safegarde of their countrye, they woulde vse another waye of perswasion, they woulde haue charitie before theyr eyes, they would consider the nature of euery man by themselues and doe as they woulde bee done vnto: and I praye you who can suffer hymselfe to be complained of to a whole countrye and to heare false wytnesse [Page] broughte agaynste hym, and by thys meanes broughte to loue: no no, this is not to wynne theyr brethren, but euer to prouoke myscheffe, and to set men by y ^e eares. God be merciful vnto vs the pulpet was ordained to speake trueth, to preache peace, and to bryng vnitie among y ^e brethren. And nowe they haue made it a place to sprede lyes, to sowe discorde, and to sette mens hartes on fyer w ^t enuy and malice. I am righte wel assured that if men would deny it, that the stones of the strete would witnes that the preachers in Kyng Edwardes tyme cried out vpon the sinnes of men, and thretned y ^e most extreme damnation, if they repented not and turned not to the Lord in amēdement of lyffe, and shewed them also a forehand what would come of oure wicked liuing, which thinges are come to passe, and therfore dyd continually exhort them to repentaunce with the niniuites, and to call vpon the name of the lyuing god in fastyng and sackecloth mourning and weping for the day of gods wrath was at hand, as we haue right wel felte and are like to feale more yet. This was not one mans preaching alone, but al for the most part, and thys (I say) If men wil deny the stones of the strete wil witnes the same. And yet al thys not wythstandyng come they into the pulpets and saye: these newe felowes woulde haue no good workes, neyther fastyng, nor prayer, but al libertie, libertie, faith, fayth, and nothing els Oh God what Christen hearte dooeth not euen breake with sorow, to se such slaunderers maintained in a pulpet: But god is a righteous lord and for that we would not be warned in tyme, [Page] being so much called vpō, he hath iustly placed vs, w ^t pacience therfore we must beare y ^e crosse til it please him to take it of agayne, there is no remedy, for if we once opē our mouthes to reasō the matter w ^t thē in this case, we must say y ^e crow is whyte or els we goe to y ^e fyer w ^tout redempcion, thys is a miserable case.

Ye make me astonyed Theophilus. For howe may it be that they should vse y ^e matter so cruellye, if there were not some great cause?

I wil tell you Eusebius, I haue heard the preachers in Kyng Edwardes time a mūber of thē. And haue red their workes, and if euer I found one sentence y ^t I can remember, y ^t did discourage ani mā, & not rather spurre forth euery mā to y ^e doing of those good workes aboue rehersed, let god forsake me, & show me no more his fauour & grace. For although we do attrybute our iustificacion to onely fayth, and that by faith only we be iustified, we meane not a dead faith, w ^toute workes, but a liuing fayth, euen y ^e same fayth sainct Paul speaketh of to the Galathians, Gala. 5. which by loue is mightie in operacyon as y ^e tree therefore is knowen to be liuing by hys budding & bearing of frute: so is the iu­stifiyng fayth knowen by charitie, out of which charitie, sprīgeth these good workes aboue said which are the very frutes therof. But your Ca­tholyke fathers showe but litell or no charitye, and therfore it should seme they haue but lytell or no fayth. Eusebius your reason is somewhat pithye, but yet I suppose there is somewhat els that moueth thys great contrauersy.

In dede it is trewe, there is another thyng y ^t moueth the matter, and y ^t is y ^e deuil the authour & maintay­ner of contencion and mischefe, in submittyng [Page] our selues where vnto we lose innocency, loue, mekenes, & al other vertues, and in stede therof we fynd pryde, stoutenes, hatred and such like, as for coueteousnes it ouer floweth the whole world.

But wil ye geue me leue (bro­ther Theophilus) to say one thyng vnto you, al­though I know you to be such a man, for youre honesty, as I would desier to leade my life w ^tal for your faithful & trew heart is knowen to thē wyth whō you haue to doe, y ^t which thing chefely I haue respect vnto, and I doe beleue y ^t god hath engrafted his grace in y ^e mans hart, which dealeth iustly w ^t men, & liueth quietly amōg his familiars, specially when it is wel knowen y ^t he wisheth al thinges to be wel. But yet (ye shal not be offended w ^t me for y ^t I wil say) there were of your sort, which are called the newe learnynge, many euil mē.

It was most trew brother Eu­sebius and can not be denyed. For there were in hel no veryer deuils thē many of thē were that professed the gospel, for otherwyse there could haue ben no couler of these lyes, and slaunders that are now spred, as is said before. For it was Iudas y ^t bare y ^e pouche, & it was Iudas y ^t betraied hys master: and many Iudasses in England vnder y ^e pretence of religiō robbed both Kynge and realme these iudasses filled their own pou­ches, & made thēselues riche & noble, & they care not who rule so long as they may geat & enioye their possessions.

Well brother Theophilus here are no more but you & I, & I dare be bolde herein to tel you my mind. For I know you vn­derstād in it as muche as I, & more to, & I dare say you do w ^t as great a gref behold it & sorow it [Page] as any English heart wil doe. I heare say y ^e king of Spayne shal at last be crouned kyng of Englād, what say you to that:

Alas brother Eusebius what should I say to it: If god haue determyned, who maye wythstande: we muste com­myt it to his good pleasure and wyll.

But do you not thynke it a plage?

Yes verely and an vtter desolacion of Englishe bloud.

Oh lord what meaneth thys?

I wyll tell you brother Euse. The almightie god hath frō y ^e beginning wrytten his wil and law, not in tables of stone onely, neyther in bokes of paper and ynke, but also in the heartes of men, as it is wrytten: I wryte my lawes in theyr heartes, and I wyl be theyr god and they shalbe my people. But leste any mā should dreame of these lawes and faine other in theyr stede they were written in tabels of stone, and after in bokes of paper and inke, so that to this day they are deuided and knowē from mens lawes. And for our better instruccion herein the onely begotten sonne of God oure Lord Iesus Chryst hath accordyng to the fa­thers promyse stablyshed and confyrmed a new testament, wherin he hath opened playnely the mysteries of Moyses law and the Prophetes, not to breake them, as the false Phariseis falsly reported of hym, but to fulfyl them in executing thys hys new testament. The which sound doc­tryne of health, the world alwayes spurned at, as they doe yet to thys daye. And althoughe it were for a tyme suffered here in Englande by the prouidence of god, and most earnestly preached and published, yet was there that spurned at it, and many abused it for there libertie for couetous [Page] lucre and such lyke, many warninges we had for both partyes to amende, but it woulde not be, wherfore seeing we woulde not receaue hym but despise hym stil as the Iewes dyd, we shal likewyse be destroyed as they were I se no other remedy.

God be merciful vnto vs, but yet I meruayle that our nobilitie suffereth it.

Why man ye must vnderstande that your catholykes nowe beare the rule, youre prelates of the Churche haue al the doynges of these matters, and ye knowe they hauinge none inheritaunce but for their liues, beyng without wife and children, rather then they would be brought down agayne, as they were in king Edwardes dayes they had rather the Turke had the rule and go­uernement therof.

I maye saye to you Theo­philus they are shroudly suspected in this mat­ter and I feare me not without good cause. But yet I meruayle of the councellours, who being put in trust with the gouernment and maye let the proceding hereof, what shoulde moue them to consente thereunto:

As I may thynke my selfe assured of you as you of me, and maye as boldely speake also my mynde to you, as you to me, and although faythful frendeship be vtter­ly banished thys Realme, so that one brother al most cannot trust another, yet frendship lurketh in corners secretely. And I thynke my selfe safe with you brother Eusebius. Your faythfulnes is to me so wel knowe. I wil therfore show you what I coniecture to be the cause of their agre­ment, a lamentable case it is, and wyth great so row and grefe, must I tel you herein my mind. They be men that be louers of themselues, yet [Page] they are so blinded with this self loue, that they neither can foresee the miserable state of theyr coūtry, neither yet their owne destruccion, they dreame as Pope Iulius dyd, who (as the fabel telleth) commaunded Sainct Peter to open hea­uen gates, dreamyng himselfe to be Pope styll. These men dreame that the King of Spaine wil make them alwaye of hys chefe counsel but. &c. They haue been of King Harry the eightes coū cel, broughte vp of meane men the moste parte. Wherby they should be accōpted noble, I know not. For they excell not in learning and knowe­ledge, they haue showed no greate proues of armes, theyr loue to a common wealth is nowe declared. But they be so infected with ambiciō, that loke what pleaseth the affecciō of y ^e Prince pleaseth also them. For in King Henryes daies they were sworne to abolishe the popes supremacy with his vsurped power, yea and they prosecuted the matter earnestly as it appered right wel, for many lost theyr liues for the same. Whē Kyng Henry was deade, Kyng Edwarde hys sonne by the meanes of hys vncle then Lorde protectour subuerted al the Popes religion, put down masse and altogether, wherewithall they were well contented, and set forewarde the matter withoute any scruple of conscyence, I war­rante you. And many goodly lawes they lette make, as wel for the mayntenaunce of that reli­gion, as also for the preseruacion of a commen wealth, and before Kyng Edwarde was fullye dead, they had concluded also with the Duke of Northumberlande, vnder pretence of the sta­blishing of that religion, and other goodly con­sideracions [Page] as it were to make hym Kyng, con­trary to al right, and contrary to all the statutes of parlemente and so woulde haue disheryted the Quene that nowe is, agaynste her fathers wil, agaynst theyr own lawes, agaynst all their othes and promise, and without any iust cause, at that time. And al this notwithstanding, whē they sawe how the game would goe: they were contented to serue the Quenes wyll, and nowe haue they sworne backe agayne to the holy fa­ther I heare say: now agayne wheras y ^e Quene goeth about not onely to breake her fathers wil and al such lawes & statutes as were made for the preseruacion and safegarde of thys realme, but is also determined of a selfe wyll to brynge England into the subieccion of a foren Prynce, they haue not onely consented and agreed, but are also chefe doers and procurers thereof, for god hath blynded theyr eyes, and theyr vnder­standing, so that they cannot see nor perceaue, their own destruccion, and yet euery child seeth and euery good heart mourneth at it ful heuely.

Now surely Theophilus you haue spokē as trewe as the gospell, for if he be once stablished King, he may without contradiccion furnishe al the fortes in Englande with his owne men, for I would not thinke him wise to trust straūgers so muche as his own countre men: whē he hath therefore brought y ^e to passe he may at all times bring an army either out of flaunders or spain, the shyppes being also at hys commaundemēt, and thorow Englande may he goe at hys wyll and pleasure, who wil say hym naye: Alas mi­serable case.

Nay nay Eusebius he shal nede [Page] none army to bryng this matter to passe, for if the Quene liue seuen yeres to an ende, he wyll so vse the matter that Englande shalbe easy in­ough to rule, for marke ye now how fast the gentle men go to y ^e tower, yea and some to hanging also. And ye see the gentlemen for the most part be of this newe learnyng, and therfore ye know vnder pretence of religion there wilbe matters Inough to ridde the most part of the nobilite of Englande, and all thys shal we be made to doe within our selues, we shalbe inueigled thus to doe one agaynst another by traynes and baites to seake one anothers destruccion, wherunto many are very prest, and al to do the Quene a pleasure. Marke how thys geare commeth to passe, for the Spaniard hath nothing to doe in al this (as we suppose) but rather getteth pardōs, and showeth great fauour to Englyshe men, but ye may be sure they haue debated thys matter in theyr heades, & in all this they make the Quene serue their turne, and her own fancy also. Now when al these heretike gentlemen be dispatched (which wylbe the greatest part of the nobilitie of Englande) then shal there be other inuency­ons had for the rest, which shalbe easy inough, for they shalbe fewe. And thynke you he wil thē trust Englishe men for the gouernment of hys kyngedome when he hath so weakened it, and may take the matter in hande? No for then peraduenture the poore Englishe men maye take a ioye in their heades when they once begyn to feale the smarte, and an Englyshe Lorde wilbe deinte at that tyme, and they wyll begynne to loue eche other, when they see howe the game [Page] wil goe, and so shewe themselues in their olde lykenes, and so make a foule worke. But I warrant you these men whiche can so compasse the matter to bryng it so farre forth, wil not be ouer sene in thys, of that ye may be sure. And there­fore of goe their heades also, let them poynt v­pon it, and thus farewel the glory of Englande for euer and a day.

O Lord whether there be no remedy for Englande that it mought be pre­serued from thys miserye?

Surelye there is but one and that is a generall repentaunce with the Niniuites fastyng and praying, moste earenestly calling vpon the trew liuing god to haue mercy vpon vs, for his sonne Christes sake, and so leaue enuieng and hating ech other, and seake loue together as it becōmeth brethren: this way and none other can I see to escape.

Well god be mercifull vnto vs what shoulde I say, I can not tell?

Your holy Prelates Eusebius haue preached a great whyle agaynste our pore mini­sters, and haue layde to their charge that they haue ben great hinderers of a common wealth, and haue marred altogether by there doctrine, in pullyng down Abbeys and Colledges, wyth such like, wherin although they spake agaynste their supersticion, and idle lyfe yet was it not redressed by their aduise, & therefore dyd they continually preache agaynste the coueteous hande­ling therof, and the euil bestowyng of such treasure, ye they feared not to tell them to their fa­ces of there faultes, so openly and playnelye, as all Englande can ryghte well witnes the same. And yet for all that doe not your Prelates cease to cast them in the teth, as though they mought [Page] haue ruled y ^e rost, beholde y ^e fruites of their doc­tryne say they, for al was coueteousnes, & I can not tel what, but if ye note well y ^e fruite of their doctrine, ye shal perceaue y ^t they haue brought another maner of thyng to passe, y ^e is the destruc­cion of vs al, the whych thing vndoutedly must nedes come to passe, if god doe not wonderfully worke for our preseruacion, contrary to al mens expectacion, & contrary also to our deseruing, & that shortly, for it is at hand.

Welcome by the grace of god. For euery kingdome deuided w ^tin it selfe shalbe destroyed I haue learned y ^t lessō, and I shall not forget it as longe as I lyue: but yet I am not fully satisfied of y ^t matter wherof I entēded most to reason w ^t you, but now y ^e euē ­ing draweth on, & peraduenture I let you from your busines.

In dede myne houre is almost come wherein I promysed to mete a frende of myne. But if it please you to pointe any time to morowe I wil mete you here by Goddes grace. And we wyl haue the matter debated at full.

Syr I praye you hartely let it be to morow af­ter dyner.

Wyth a good wil, fare ye wel

and I pray god geue you his holy spirite to order & rule your goinges, that whatso­euer ye go about, it maye be to the honour & glory of his name, & to the profit of this com­mē wealth

I thanke you

with all my hearte, & I pray god it may so come to passe. Amē.

well mette brother Theophilus, you haue made good shifte, I thought to haue been heare before you, you wente to diner betyme I perceaue.

Euen as I doe commonly, when I haue no busynes, bet­wene nyne & ten, me thinkes it is a good houre: for by that meanes I saue a breakefast, whyche for suche idlers as I am, is moste fittest.

In dede to say truth it were inough, for the moste part of men, if they could be so cōtented.

Yea brother Eusebius, and a greate deale of those two meales in one daye, would be better spente also. I meane of such, as vse muche banketynge and costly fare dayly in theyr houses, with such superfluyte, as surely is in mine opiniō to much, and none vse it more, then your Prelates of the Churche: for they suppose thēselues to fast suf­ficiently, if they abstayne from fleshe frydayes and saterdayes, and suche lyke dayes as they haue appoynted: they thynke it no matter to banket other dayes, and so are all the rest of youre religion perswaded. And yet alas consyderyng the miserable state we stande in it were mere to mourne, wepe, fast, and pray: I meane not fry­dayes onely but all the dayes of the weake, to [Page] leaue our bely chere and to take an other waye, then to banket and play, setting cocke in y ^e houpe and care not what beecome of vs.

Ye haue sayed well Theophilus I promyse you, but yet geue me leaue to saye agayne your sort of the o­ther syde despysed so muche our superstycyous fast, that they fasted not at all, and therfore our men were the better in thys case I am sure.

I must nedes graunt Eusebius that a great num­ber were at that poynte, and I must confesse al­so that libertye had caused many men to waxe wylde, the whiche woulde haue been tamed, by good lawes right well, and were in maner pro­uided. If Satan had not enuied the profit ther­of. But yet they say there can be neuer a better, wheras there is neuer a good, but as touchyng dyet, doutlesse I thynke there were some good men of both sides, I meane suche men as wyth good moderacion vsed gods creatures for there necessitie, and not for theyr wanton lust. And so likewise in other outward obseruaunces, I sup­pose there be of both sides, that meane wel, and wyshe well vnto all men, and I doe not thynke the contrarye but if there were charitie in oure heartes, & we could fynd in our heartes to loue one another, we should agree and prosper well inough, but Sathan hath sowed the seade of discorde among vs, and we cannot loue eche other, but wyth moste spite that may be, we persecute one another to destruccion, and thys wylbe our own confusion.

Yea Theophilus that is in dede a lamentable thyng and the greatest grefe to me, that you beyng an honest man, and I am I hope not of the worst sort of men, for my har­tye [Page] desier is that all moughte be well, thys therfore greueth me that we should be of diuers opinions, and not of one mynd specially in religiō, and therefore dyd I couet to talke wyth you to thende I moughte if I coulde bryng you to the same mynd I am my selfe, and to say the trueth I vnderstande not so great contrauersye, but as you sayd with charite and frendly debating the matter we shal agree, and so would I wyshe all men to doe, for I lyke not thys crueltye assuredly, and therfore let me understande wherein we vary, we beleue both al the Articles of the Christen fayth, what causeth the contrauersye therefore?

I wyll tell you Eusebius, the name of the catholyke churche, the holy churche, the vni­uersall churche, that marreth altogether.

What man say not so, god forbydde, but Chryst shoulde haue a churche heare in earth.

loe syr howe sone ye misunderstande me. I remember now, that when master Latymer beganne fyrst to preache, he taughte the people to putte theyr hole confydence in Iesus Chryst, and that he only was our redempcion and that there was no health in any other, no not in the blessed virgyn Mary (sayeth he) I wil not say but she was the most excellent woman vpō earth, and sauoured altogether of Chryst, as the bagge wherein saf­fron hath been smelleth altogether of saffrō, yet is not the bagge the saffron it selfe, and so was not she the saueoure selfe, thoughe she bare hym that was saueour of y ^e world to as many as beleued in hym, thys wyth more Eloquent wordes did he set forth, as he was a mā passing al other for that purpose, now what sayd the people of [Page] thys? Forsouth that he had despysed our lady, and had made her no better then a saffrō bagge I bryng thys tale by the way nowe, not so much for that you mistoke me in thys, as to put you in remembraunce of the great foly that is in many now a daies, whiche when they heare, and per­aduenture vnderstande not the matter, yet wyll they goe and tell a whole storye, and euer they wyll make the wurste of it, thys it is almoste in euery commen matter betwene neyghboure and neyghbour: there be such a sort of peace brea­kers, that delite in nothing so much as in telling of newes and thus setteth one neyghboure a­gaynst another, all whiche encreaseth oure da­mage.

But dyd I then misunderstande you Theophilus: Theo Yea brother Eusebius, but thankes be to god there can be no hurt in that. I speake all thys, for no other thyng but that you should note the great mischeffe that insueth of those flatterers whyche gooe flerynge to picke thanke, and tell all they heare and more to, and that to woorke mischefe, but this is no suche matter: for althoughe you toke me that I sayed that Chrystes churche or the holy catholyke churche marred altogether yet shall we debate the matter before we goe, so that we shall vnderstande one another, but these men seake no suche thing that I spake of before.

But then I pray you, let me vnderstande your meaning, for so I toke it in dede as for suche peace breakers as ye spake of, I knowe and coulde declare howe by: suche of a sparcle was made a whole fyer, in­ough to haue set a whole contree on a heate, but let that passe and goe forth I pray you.

Thus [Page] I sayed Eusebius, that the name of the holye catholyke churche, the vniuersall churche, or of Chrystes churche, if ye wyll, that dooeth marre altogether.

Why so? Theophilus, for thys cause, that they whyche pretende to bee Christes church, are nothing lesse then Christes in dede. Eusebius doe ye thinke so? Theophilus yea and I wil proue it so to, that you shal vnderstande that your selfe.

say on I pray you, and I wil geue eare. Theophilus this know ye first then, that in the .24. Chapter of Saincte Mathewes gospell, Chryst gaue hys disciples thys warnyng and sayed: take hede, for many shal come in my name & saye there are Christes, be not deceaued. &c. Nowe ye muste vnderstād that Christus is as much to say as annointed, so that many shall come in Chrystes name and say they be the annoynted, marke wel this warning and take good hede vnto it.

Well forth yet, I doe vnderstande you wel thys farre.

Verye well then note thys also, that as the Lorde Ie­sus gaue thys warning a litel before hys death, so dyd Saincte Paull also a greate whyle after Chryst had suffred, cal the Bishops and elders of Ephesus together, and taking hys leaue, as one that should see them no more, gaue them al­so thys warning and sayed, take hede vnto your selues, and to the flocke wherof ye haue charge: for after my departyng shall enter in among you greuous wolues, Acte. [...]0. which shal not spare the flocke &c. Marke well now that Christe the Lord, and hys Apostles lykewyse, howe diligently and ernestly they gaue vs warninge to take hede and beware of deceauers, and false Prophetes, yea [Page] as it were almoste theyr laste woordes, whyche of all other, for the moste parte, are to be noted. and were it not reason we dyd take hede?

Yes doutlesse, we muste and ought to take hede or els we shalbe deceaued. But nowe saye oure Preachers that we oughte to take hede of you, for of you were these woordes spoken.

Naye then marke Sainct Paules wordes agayne, for he sayeth: after my departing. &c. And they shal be men that shall ryse euen of your own selues, sayeth he. Iohn. 2. And Saincte Iohn in hys Epistles sayeth also that euen then in hys tyme were many become Antichristes alredye. And therefore the daunger is not nowe onely, but then and al­wayes to be taken hede vnto. And it is the more daunger in that they shall come in the name of Chryst, pretendyng hys authoritye, and by that meanes the rather deceaue the good simple mā, beholde therefore I haue told you before, saith the Lorde take hede. &c. Eusebius well yet I se not in al this, but we haue as good cause to take hede of you as you of vs and more to, for we are of greatter authorite, and better can we showe for our selues then you.

That woulde I faine vnderstand for therein lyeth the whole matter.

Wel sir then harken, first we are come to this poynt that betwene vs is stryfe, whether we catholikes be the true churche of Chryst, and you protestauntes false Prophetes, or els we the false harlottes, and you the trewe men.

Ye saye trueth, nowe for the profe of your authorytye, and that your catholykes be the true church of Chryste, let vs heare what you can saye,

Thus I saye then, that our churche hath been of [Page] a long continuaunce, from Chrystes tyme vnto thys daye, and it hath been also vniuersall tho­rowe out all Chrystendome, not here or there but thorowe oute. And they haue alwayes one consente within them selues, now by these thre poyntes doe the greateste learned men geue a sure and certayne knowledge of the true church vnto all men, that is to wite by antiquite, vni­uersalite, and consent, and me thynkes it sufficient, for it cannot deceaue.

Doe you thynke thys a sufficient proffe:

Yea doutelesse, what can you saye to the contrarye?

Mary I say that by this reason ye maye proue the Scrybes and Pharyses to bee the true churche, and Chryste to be a false Pro­phete, for they professed Moises law and obserued it also better then your Catholikes doe now the gospel, and thys law ye know was of great antiquitie, and so were also many of theyr own tradicions, that they had deuysed besyde that lawe, so that they had antiquite sufficiente, and vniuersall they were thoroweout all Iuda and Ierusalem, as we thorowe Chrystendome: and theyr consentye may vnderstande by the death of Chryste, whereunto they all consented and agreed.

Yea but ye must vnderstande that oure churche begane fyrste at Chryste, and so from thence had her antiquitie, and from him it beganne to be vniuersall, and in hym the con­sente is effectuall.

Naye then ye make your matter wursie then before.

Dooe I so?

Yea verely doe ye, for tell me, what thynke you of the churche of the Apostles, was not that a perfecte true churche?

Yes verely, and so perfect, as I bee­leue there hath not been a perfecter.

Very well, but I praye you, of what antiquitie were theyr You graunt that Chryst was the be­gynner of that churche beyng here a liuing man on earth. And then howe could they alledge for themselues antiquitie. And seyng they had not your markes, specially antiquitie, it shoulde ap­peare by your reason not to be the true churche, or els if ye graunte that to bee the true churche, and your churche and that churche haue not like probacion, then muste youre churche be a false churche there is no remedy.

Ye play the sophister with me now brother Theophilus

Naye truly the reason is so playne that eue­ry ploweman maye well vnderstande the same.

Well yet if they hadde not that antiquitie, which we haue, this maketh no discorde among vs, for we haue antiquitie by the reasō we haue continued so longe in that doctryne, and ordi­naunces, whiche they deliuered vnto vs, & now therfore is that same waxen olde by time, which then was new begon: and therfore thys is but a cauillacion of sophisters to shyft of an inconueniaunce, whyche els would ensewe: and thys is the maner of subtyle disputers, as the most part of your opinion be subtile disputers, and haue good heades full of inuencion, and doutelesse many of them haue much learninge, I moughte saye to muche well inoughe.

That is the common saying of your catholykes nowe, and yet I remember within these fewe yeares, when they woulde crye oute and saie: they haue no learning at all, but onely haue redde an Englishe [Page] booke, a to peny boke, as for learning they had none. And nowe agayne they saye, they de­ceaue all the worlde by to muche learnyng, thys they saye, they care not what, so they be talking. But nowe whereas you thynke myne obieccion to be but a cauillacion, ye muste vnderstande that it is a greate matter to deceaue men in the pryncypall poynte of our fayth, as to reache vs to knowe the churche by a false meane, as they saye by antiquitie, whereas ye knowe the beste churche had it not. But then whereas ye vrge antiquitie nowe, for that ye haue of longe tyme continued in the doctryne and obseruaunces of the Apostles I denye that, and put you to your proues, wherin doe ye continew in the Apostles doctryne and obseruaunces.

Forseth in all thynges that the churche teacheth, there is nothyng as I thynke, but the Scripture dooeth teache the same.

Then I praye you tell me in what place of the Scripture doe you fynde, that we ought to knele downe, to crepe, and kysse Images, to sence them, to decke them, and trime them wyth such lyke, or els rather tel me in how many places of the Scripture we be commaunded to the contrarye. As in the second commaundemente and a thousande places bee­side: and like as in that poynte, so almost in all the reste I could proue that your catholykes do not onely not folowe the doctrine of the holye Scripture but also teache another doctryne cō ­trarye to the same: now if they wyll yet for all that boast themselues of Chryste, and the Apo­stles, and yet teache another doctryne contrary to the holy Scriptures: oughte we not to take [Page] hede and beware of them.

Well yet tell me thys one thynge, hath not Chryste had a Churche heare in earth euer sence hys resurrec­cion, hath not the churche preached and continued visible, a knowē churche styl in al places, not in corners heare or there but thorowe oute all Christendom, & openly had the rule, and gouer­ned the whole congregacion from time to time? And your churche beganne of late yeares, was a straunge thyng not knowen, but a litell whyle in a fewe places of Germanye and so heare in England, but it is quailed againe wythin short space: and yet I cannot tell howe, if it had been the trewe churche of Chryst, it could not so sone haue been ouerthrowen, wherfore if there were nothyng els but this reason, yet is it sufficiente to stablysh the consciences of good simple men. For there can be nothyng sayd vnto it.

Yes Eusebius if ye list to hearken I wyll aunswere you in suche wyse as I trust you shalbe satisfyed.

I wyl hearken gladlye Theophilus, for if ye can answere me to this, I haue no more to say.

Then heare me I pray you, I graunt you that Chryst hath had a churche or congregacion heare in yearth, whyche hath continually preached hys gospell, hys testamente, hys holy worde from his resurreccion yea from the begynnyng vnto thys daye, these have been visible, and knowen, as Iohn the Baptyst was knowen to Herode, Chryste was knowen to the Iewes, for Iohn was behedded, and Chryste was crucified, and whiche of the Apostles escaped that was not putte to death, some hanged, some broiled, some rosted, some one cruel death [Page] and some another, and therefore ye may be sure they were knowen. And yet because ye shall not saye but euen the Apostles hydde them selues and fledde, ye reade howe Saincte Paule was lette down in a basket ouer the wall and wente hys waye, and I praye you howe many yeares after the Apostles were the menne of God vexed and persecuted? And all this was for preaching the gospel of Iesus Christ. Nowe whereas ye laye to oure charge that our churche beganne but of late, your churche is the more to be suspected for that, which haue so longe space kepte downe the gospell, for we professe none other doctrine then the Apostles and Martyrs did, whiche died for it, as ye see howe our prea­chers and diuers other good brethren are contē ­ted to geue ouer theyr lyues lykewyse for the same, as the Apostles dyd. For Chryste hath taughte in dyuers places that we should suffer for his doctrine, but he neuer taught to kyll any for it. The rule that your Prelates haue taken ouer the churches, hath been and yet is like princes, and not lyke Apostles: they playe the de­stroyers, but not the saueours: they folow their master the deuill, and not oure master Chryste. And therefore lette no man thynke that Chryste mayntayneth hys churche in suche pompe and pryde, but rather layeth on them the crosse, for he sayeth the seruaunte is not greater then hys Lorde: yf they haue persecuted me they shall also persecute you and so foorth. But nowe youre Prelates fynde oute suche balde reasons to perswade the symple to be of theyr side, and say they, where are these new felowes become? [Page] they be gone, but Christes churche is a visible churche a knowen churche, & not hydde in cor­ners. But sheweth her selfe openlye. And suche like. But I praye you where was theyr churche in Kinge Edwardes dayes: If there were no more reasons to proue it a false church but that same one, it were sufficiente to proue them false dissemblers. For where as Christes Apostles, disciples, and many Martyrs after that would rather lose theyr lyues then denye theyr master or his doctryne: they were contented not onely to subscribe, but also to preach earnestly against that whiche they nowe defende: if ye will haue one named, axe the Byshoppe of London whe­ther he haue not preached agaynste the Pope? Yea and whyche of them hath not? where was there any of them that woulde burne hys lytell fynger for the maintenaunce of theyr doctryne? And nowe ye see the other companye, hauinge another maner of hope of the resurreccyon, they come and offer themselues. I tel you trueth heare is a great difference, and if, yet for al this, you wyll haue that Chrystes churche, which is so addycted to the worlde, that for safegard of their liues and liuinges, they wil say whatsoe­uer they shal: then Christes churche were won­derfully chaunged from that it was in the bee­gynnynge. Weye you the matter in your conscience brother Eusebius. Yea behold what plea­sure they haue in shedding of bloud.

Surely ye haue layde soore to my charge bro­ther Theophilus, and to saye the trueth, theyr tyrannye my stomake dooeth abhorre But yet tell me one thynge, if these signes, and tokens [Page] be vncerten to knowe Chrystes churche, howe doe you know the trewe spouse of Christ? what tokens canne you showe me whereby I mighte assuredly knowe Chrystes churche and not bee deceaued.

I will tell you brother Eusebius, but firste call to remembraunce, the warninge that Chryste gaue vs to be ware of false Prophetes, and also the admonycyon of Sayncte Paull to the same ende, and the wyt­nesse of Sayncte Iohn, who affyrmed that ma­ny were come in his tyme, and in many places of Sayncte Paull, ye shall see howe he complai­neth of them that they wente aboute to subuert the ghospell of Chryste and that in the name of Christe. And therefore to thentente we shoulde not bee deceaued vnder the couler of holy aun­ciente fathers or any such lyke: Gala. 1. he gaue vs thys moste certeyne and infallyble rule sayinge: If we oure selues (marke well hys wordes) if we oure selues, or an Aungell from heauen preache vnto you a gospell that hath not been preached already to you, holde hym accursed. As I sayd, so I saye agayne (sayeth he) if we or an Aun­gell from heauen preache vnto you another doctryne whiche hath not been by vs preached al­ready, lette hym bee accursed, and so foorth. Now tell me Eusebius, If youre catholyke churche doe preache any doctryne, besyde or contrarye to the doctryne of Saynct Paul and the reste of the Apostles, haue we not here a playn rule to refuse them and holde them accursed? And haue we not here sufficiente instruccion howe to knowe the perfect true churche?

Verely I cannot tell what to saye, for ye [Page] haue almoste caughte me in youre nette, but yet I will learne more argumentes to oppose a­gainste you, the whiche if you canne lykewyse solute, I wyll geue place, for me thynkes ye meane well, and I partlye doute whether in verye dede ye haue the veritie on youre syde, the whyche being certenlye knowen, I will not bee ashamed to confesse mine ignoraunce. For what shoulde we seake but the glory of Chryste?

Woulde God all Englyshe men were lyke minded, I meane not that they shoulde strayghte waye geue place to vs, but that they would quietlye bee contented to debate the matter charitably, brotherly and frendly: some there bee that woulde but they beare not the sweye, and therefore with pacience we must remaine and beholde what the good wil and pleasure of oure Lorde God is vpon vs, for our offences and sinnes.

Now surely the sentence is geuen in euery kingedome within it selfe deuided shal bee destroyed.

Well the good wil of god be don. Except we may deceaue his Prophetes by earnest repentaunce with the Niniuites as is sayd before, as Ionas was decea­ued, els there is no remedy. But yet who so put­teth his trust in the lord shal not be confounded: therfore whatsoeuer become of the rest, happy are they that put theyr trust in the lord. Brother Eusebius when your argumentes be ready, let vs haue them in communicacion. I shall bee ready at all tymes by Goddes grace to heare you. In the meane season I commytte you to god.

Fare ye wel brother

Wyth all my hearte.