AN ANSWER TO MR. FIS …

AN ANSWER TO M R. FISHER THE IESVITE, HIS FIVE PROPOSITIONS CONCERNING LƲTHER.

By M r. ROGERS, that wor [...] Oxford Diuine.

VVith some passages also of the said M r. Rogers with the said M r. Fisher.

Hereunto is annexed M r. VV. C. his Dialogue of the said Argument, wherein is disco [...]d FISHERS FOLLY.

Printed M.DC.XXIII.

M R. FISHER THE IESVITE, HIS FIVE PROPOSITIONS CONCERNING • 1. Luther. , • 2. Doctrine. , and • 3. Names. 

1. THere is one, and but one true infallible faith, Eph. 4. Heb. 11. with­out which none can please God: nor consequently attaine eternall saluation.

2. Rom. 10. Eph. 4. This infallible faith cannot be had (according to the ordinarie course of Gods prouidence) but by hearing Preachers and Pastors of the true visible Church, who onely are lawfully sent and authorized to teach the true word of God.

3. As therefore this one infallible faith hath beene, Ose. 2. Isa. 56. Mat. 18. Eph. 4. and must be in all ages: so there must be in all ages Prea­chers and Pastors of the true visible Church, of whom all sorts of people haue in times past (as appeareth by histories) learned, and must in all future times learne the said in­fallible faith.

4. Hence it followeth, that if Protestants be the true [Page 2] visible Church of God, then all sorts of men who in euery age haue had the aforesaid infallible faith, haue learned it by hearing Protestant Preachers, whose names may be found: who in euery former age did teach and conuert people of seuerall Nations vnto the faith of Christ.

5. Hence further it followeth, that if there cannot (as there cannot) be found in Historie the names of Protestant Preachers, who in all ages did teach all sorts of faithfull people, and who conuertd seuerall Nations vnto the Christian faith; hence it followeth I say, that the Pro­testants are not the true visible Church of Christ, neither are their Preachers lawfully sent or sufficiently authori­zed to teach, nor the people securely warranted to learne of them that one infallible faith, without which none can please God, nor if they so liue and die can be saued.

1. Names. 2. Doctrine.

If any Protestant will answer the premises, let him set downe the Names of Protestant Preachers in all ages, who taught the people Protestant Doctrine in euery seuerall age: or else confesse that there were no such before Luther: or at least not in all ages to be found in Historie.

TO THE CHRISTIAN READER.

CHristian Reader, There came to my hands by the good prouidence of God this small Treatise, touch­ing a conference betwixt one M r. Rogers an Ox­ford Diuine, and one Mr. Fisher a Iesuite: as it should seeme it was sent inclosed to a Gentleman of good worth and worship one this side the Seas, hauing read it ouer, and perceiuing it to be of very necessary vse for my Coun­try-men of England, (whose good I desire from my heart) I haue aduentured to publish it to the view of the world: the rather, because therein is notably laid open and con­uinced, the weake grounds of the fiue propositions of Mr. Fisher the Iesuite, who is as I heare, so much admired of English papists; the which Fisher, Sweet, Brierly, Clerk, with others of that company, doe studie and striue with all might and maine by divulging their written papers, as also their Printed Bookes full of lyes and vntruths: nay I say, Bookes full of blasphemie against the grea [...] God of heauen, as namely that Booke Intituled. The vncasing of Heresie, written by O. A: and all to make proselites of their owne faction, to ruine that flourishing Church and Common-wealth. I beseech the great God of heauen, to raise vp dayly worthy Diuines more and more to defend his owne cause, against the Kingdome of Antichrist, and wicked instruments, being very dangerous persons both against Church and Common wealth. Read it with the [Page] [...] ioyned, & so by Gods blessing thou shalt reape [...] fit by it, and g [...]ue all glory to God aboue, who in [...] will [...]e [...]esse things that are amisse.

THE ANSWER TO THE MASSE-PRIESTS DEMANDS, CONCERNING 1. Doctrine. and 2. Names.

Rogers.

THe three first positions I admit.

1. that there is one faith.

2. That the ordinarie propagation of this faith is by Pastors lawfully called.

3. That there haue been, and must be in all agee such Pastors so called.

4. I would gladly know what they meane by those wordes, [If the Protestants be the true visible Church] whether so, as if we alone (who are com­monly called Protestants) were of the Church, and no others? we leaue such inclosing of commons to the Romanists, we challenge it not.

We are a true Church, not the true Church; we are a part, not the whole: we include our selues, we exclude not others: whether Grecians, Armenians, Aethiopians, Spaniards, or Italians, &c: yet so they [Page 4] deny no fundamentall part of the faith, either di­rectly, or by consequent.

5. In the first, I desire to know whether they re­quire we should shew the Names of Protestants in Histories, or their faith; this we will shew, that we neede not: for the name of Protestants is but arbi­trarie and accidentall from a protestation made in Germanie; and from the like accidents we may call the Romanists Protestants, for many protestations made in the Councell of Trent, Registred in their publike Acts.

But if it be really meant thus; let the Protestants shew that their now faith was taught by lawfull Pa­stors in all ages: I doe (with Gods helpe) vnder­take it, and require the same from the Authors of these propositions and demaunds.

This will I proue by three Argument.

  • 1. A Causis.
  • 2. A Signis.
  • 3. Ab Exemplis.

Which is the onely satisfaction here demanded: but I must desire the authors not to affect obscuritie, or to alter their words, which may alter their mea­ning, as in the fiue propositions they haue with the multitude of needlesse words obscured the matter: the fourth being briefely and plainly this.

4. If the Protestants be a true Church, their faith hath beene taught in all ages by lawfull Pastors. This I grant also.

The summe of the fift is briefely this.

5. If the Names of Protestant Pastors in all ages can­not be shewed, then the Protestants are not a true Church.

[Page 5]This I denie to be of vndoubted consequence, for the Argument negatiuely from authoritie is of no force.

In your Demands, you require the Names of such as taught the Protestants Doctrines in all ages: wher­as all your propositions before were of faith, as if all Doctrines were points of faith.

Now Sit my Arguments.

  • 1. The faith contained in Scriptures hath beene taught in all ages.

    But the faith of the Protestants is contained in Scriptures: Ergo,

    The faith of the Protestants hath beene taught in all ages.

  • 2. That faith which hath the testimonie of anti­quitie, vniuersalitie, and consent, was taught in all ages by lawfull Pastors.

    The faith of the Protestants hath these testimo­nies: Ergo,

    The faith of the Protestants was taught in all ages.

  • 3. That faith which hath beene taught by Au­thors visible in all ages, is the true faith.

    But the Protestant faith hath beene so maintained by such Authors: Ergo,

    The Protestant faith hath been maintained in all ages.

The Names of such as professed the faith of the Protestants in all ages, since the incarnation of Christ.

In euery centure of yeares, which is called sacu­lum, an age: I will name some writers whose workes are extant.

Ab anno 1. ad 100.In the first centure Christ himselfe, and his A­postles, and Euangelists.

Ab 100 ad 100.In the second age Saint Iohn the Euangelist, who died either Anno 100, or 101: to him we adde Igna­tius, and Polycarpus, who though they liued in part of the first age, and part of the second age, they are alwayes reckoned Fathers of that age in which they dyed: to these I adde Iustin Martyr, Iraenaeus.

Ab [...]. ad 3 [...]0 Tertullian, Clemens Alexandrinus, Origen, Cyprian, Lac [...]antius.

Ab 300. ad 400 Athanasius, Cyrillus Hierosolymitanus, Ambrosius, Gregorius Mystenus, Hieronymus, Ruffinus, Chryso­stomus.

Ab 400. ad 500. Augustinus, Cyrillus Alexandrinus, Theodoretus, Vincentius [...]riuensis, Socrate [...], Zozomen, Chrysologus.

Ab 500. ad 600 Bulgentius, [...]u [...]grius, Gregorius primus.

Ab 70 [...]. ad [...]00 Beda, Damascenus, Alcu [...]nus.

Thus hauing gon halfe the way, I conclude with this Argument.

The Protestants saith is plainely expressed in the Canonicall Scripture, and comprised in the Apostles Creede.

All these Fathers did professe that faith which is contained in the holy Canonicall Scripture, and [Page 7] comprised in the Apostles Creede: Ergo,

All these did professe the Protestants faith.

As I admonished M r. Fisher to distinguish betweene Affirmation and Negation, so I do these men: and that faith is Affirmation, not Negation, for no man beleeueth which he denieth. Secondly in point of faith I like M r. Fe. rule.

They that are in the affirmatiue, must proue now all that we affirme: they affirme, as one God, three Persons, all the Creede; so that we neede not proue what our aduersaries doe confesse.

But in those points in variance betweene vs, they are to proue; because they are affirmatiue, we nega­tiue: as vnwritten Traditions, Latin Seruice, inuo­cation of Saints, &c.

The Protestants faith being that which is con­tained in the Scriptures, receiued fo [...] vndoubtedly Canonicall in the first 400. yeares, which is sum­marily comprised in the Apostles Creede, is receiued by all the Orthodox Fathers.

But those Fathers aboue named be all Orthodox:

Ergo,

The Maior is manifest: the Minor I will proue out of their owne Authors, concerning all sauing Tertullian, in whom I must distinguish the times: for first he was Orthodox, though after an Heretike.

Hauing gone thus far at this time, I vndertake for the rest: and do require the like from the Romanists, viz.

That they will shew me the Names of such as [Page 8] taught the now saith of the Church of Rome in all ages, and let them set me down the Names, as I haue done.

And for instances in points of Romane faith in all ages, I require these men to shew me the Names of those who in the 1. 2. 3. centure of yeares did preach or professe vnwritten traditions to be the rule of faith: 2, that the vulgar translation is authenticall: 3, that there are 7 Sacraments properly so called, and no more: 4, that the Bookes of the Macha­bes are Canonicall: 5, transubstantiation: 6, Inuo­cation of Saints: 7, worshipping of Images, &c.

This rule is proposed by them, which though it be no necessarie consequence of faith, yet it bindeth them that propose it to make good in particular: out of their owne position thus I argue.

That is the true Church whose faith hath had vi­sible professors in all ages.

The Romish faith had not visible professors in all ages: Ergo,

The Romane Church is not a true Church.

An other Argument.

The true faith hath the testimonies of Vniuesali­tie, Antiquitie, and Consent.

But the Romish faith (as farre as they differ from the Protestant faith, which they do in all the points aboue alledged) hath not testimonies of

  • 1. Vniuersalitie.
  • 2. Antiquitie.
  • 3. And Consent.

[Page 9] Ergo,

The Romish faith is not a true faith.

Let the Romanists answer these two Arguments in those particular points aboue written, and I will be of their Church.

An Admonition to the Reader.

I Do not so meane that those Fathers by me named haue expressely set downe euery point of our faith in their seuerall writings, neither can the Church of Rome doe it for theirs.

But being Orthodox right beleeuing Fathers, they did consequently maintaine the Scriptures, & Apostles Creede.

Some passages had between Master Rogers, and Master Fisher the Iesuite, as followeth.

Fisher.

It being granted that there must be a visible Church in all ages, of which all sorts must learne faith neces­sarie to saluation.

Rogers.

The perpetuall visibilitie of the Church I ac­knowledge; But I pray you set me downe what a visible Church is, and what you meane by those wordes which you put of another letter, who you meane by all sorts? whether the Children who die before they come to yeares of discretion doe learne this faith: or dying before they come to learne it, be not after Baptisme parts of the visible Church.

Secondly, What you meane by learne? whether an actuall explicite knowledge, or an habituall only implicite knowledge?

Thirdly, What points of faith you hold neces­sary to saluation?

The question propounded by M. Fisher at the in­treaty of a Gentleman who desired satisfaction, was:

Fisher.

Whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages, especially in the ages before Luther: and whether the [Page 11] names of the professors thereof may be shewed in all ages out of good Authors?

Rogers.

A Church professing the same faith which the Protestants now doth, was visible in all ages: and I doe vndertake to proue it out of good Authors.

Fisher.

M r. Fisher vndertooke to defend the negatiue part, so as it did belong to his aduersaries to proue the affirma­tiue.

M. Fisher explicated the meaning of his question to be, First, That his aduersaries should set down Names of men in all ages which they thought to be Protestants.

Secondly, That they should shew out of good Authors proofe that they were Protestants.

Thirdly, That they should defend them to hold nothing contrary to the Doctrin of the Protestants, contained in the 39 Articles, vnto which all English Ministers are sworne.

Rogers.

To the Second, First I will show the Names of such as maintained our now faith in all ages, and bring good proofe.

To the Third, First, It is no preiudice to our faith if the same Authors doe differ from vs in other opi­ni [...]ns not concerning faith, as long as they maintain our faith.

Secondly, The Church of Rome cannot produce Fathers in all ages, who doe not contradict the Councell of Trent in some Doctrines established in the said Councell.

Fisher.
[Page 12]

M r. Fisher offered me a like proportion, to name, and proue, and defend professors of Romane religion, holding nothing contrarie to the Doctrine defined in the Councell of Trent.

Rogers.

You must expresse whether you haue all things defined in that Councell to be matters of faith: if you doe, you can neuer performe what you haue promised,

I desired you therefore M. Fisher to expresse with­out ambiguitie the termes of this question: whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages?

What you meane by Church? what by Prote­stants? what by visible?

I will deliuer my opinion in defining a Protestant Church.

The Protestant Church, is a societie of men pro­fessing the faith expressed in the Canonicall Scrip­tures, acknowledged to be such in the Primitiue Church, comprised in the Apostles Creede, explain­ed in the other two Creedes of Nice, & Athanasius, Ministring the Sacraments of Baptisme and the Lords Supper by men of lawfull Ordination and calling.

Such a societie as this was in all ages: Ergo.

The Protestant Church was in all ages.

I desire you also to distinguish betweene matters of

  • Discipline, &
  • Doctrine.

Secondly, to distinguish betweene.

  • 1. Doctrine Accessorie. And
  • 2. Doctrin Fundamentall.

[Page 13]Matter of faith consisteth not in Discipline, but Doctrine: and that Doctrine not accessorie, but fundamentall.

By this distinction I meane the same which Aqui­nas doth by Res fidei,

  • 1. Per Se.
  • 2. Per Accidens.

I distinguish betweene.

  • 1. Affirmation. And
  • 2. Negation.

In those Articles of our English Church, our ne­gation is partly a trauersing, partly a condemning of your nouelties and additions: and therefore no part of our faith; for no man would deny his owne faith; In all these I defend the Negatiue, and so it doth belong to you to proue the affirmatiue.

Which when you shall do by testimony of writers in all ages, I will yeeld to you.

For you prouing the affirmatiue, the negatiue will fall of it selfe. As for example, the first instance of negation in our Articles, is no part of the sixt Article concerning those Bookes of Esdras, Tobie, Iudith, &c: which we receiue not for Canonicall, you doe: the proofe is on your side.

What I require of you, I wil performe on our side: whatsoeuer is affirmatiue in our Articles, I will maintaine to be affirmed and taught in all ages, as the 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Articles, the affirmatiue part of the 6. 7. 8, and so in the rest, or I will yeeld vnto you: giue me instance with affirmation of our Articles you deny, and I will proue it in all ages: and I desire you to set downe withall, which of our affirmatiue Articles you receiue: and whether we agree in the [Page 14] Articles of the Creede, or not.

I will do the like by you, and giue you an instance in your affirmatiues: shew me who in euery age did receiue the Bookes of Esdras, Machabies, Tobit, Iudeth, &c. for Canonicall, in the 1. 2. 3. 4 centure of yeares; this is one of the first points of your Tridentiue faith.

I desire you also M. Fisher, for the avoyding of confusion to deliuer your opinion, whether all the affirmatiue Doctrines of the Councell of Trent are matters of faith Per se, fundamentall and necessarie to be held for saluation Fide explicata: I speake de adubtis quibus facultas datur discendi.

And I do confesse that none of your side, or ours, haue giuen me [...]ull satisfaction in this point, which are Res fidei per se. I therefore propose this M. Fisher as desirous to learne, and to lay a foundation for fur­ther proceeding in this point of the visible Church.

Neither will I be sparing to deliuer my opinion with submission to better men, and better leasure of my owne, (hauing bin these 6 moneths far from my Bookes, and farther from leasure or repose to study.)

I doe not thinke that all the affirmatiue Doctrines contained in our Articles, are Res fidei per se, funda­mentall, necessarie to saluation.

I therefore di­stinguish between Dogmata.

  • 1. Scholae, these denied, worke a priuat dissention.
  • 2. Ecclesiae, these work an exter­nall seperatiō from the Church.
  • 3. Fidei, These denied, worke an eternall damnation.

By Ecclesiae, I meane not the essentiall Church, but representatiue, whether generall, nationall, or pro­uinciall.

[Page 15]That it is onely an error in the latter, which is damnable, not in the first and second, vnlesse it be with obstinacy.

I will giue you instance as well as I can, being without my Bookes.

Consubstantiation was a Schoole tenent Anno 1100, not a Church tenent.

Transubstantiation was a Church tenent after the yeare 1200. 1. Ecclesiae Romanae, but the reall presence, vnderstanding thereby not a bodily presence, but a true relation, a Sacramentall obligation, and spiritu­all exhibition of his body, is Res fidei, a point of faith.

Or thus, Transubstantiation was a Schoole tenent Anno 1100, a Church tenent Anno 1215, defined by Innocentius 3, in concil. Latera: but no point of faith, because the bodie of religion or points of faith are without addition: As Lyrinensis: inuitetur animarum religio rationem corporum quae & quotparuilorum membra tot virorum. And as Aquinas saith,

The Articles of faith do grow quoad

  • Explicationem.
  • Non
  • Quod ad substantiam.

That which was no point of faith for the first 1200 yeares, could be none afterwards, vt supra Vin­centius Lerinensis, & Aquinas.

But transubstantiation was no point of faith be­fore the yeare 1200: Scotus. Ergo, transubstantiation is no point of faith.

If I doe not cite the words of Scotus aright, impute it to my want of bookes, for I haue none at this time, yet I would lay the foundation of a friendly confe­rence without trickes, ambiguitie, or bitternes.

[Page 16]I desire you also to obserue in the citing of the Fathers, to alledge nothing for your opinion but what that Father hath held, written, and taught, apertè, frequenter, perseueranter, or at least that his words be plaine, and his opinion such as that he hath not after recanted, or crossed in his later workes.

I thinke it reasonable also, that if I will iustifie the faith which is publikely professed and recessitated by our Church, that I produce not onely some particu­lar men deliuering their opinions, but also proofes of some Church or visible societie, who publikely professed the same faith in all ages.

The like I expect from you.

So the first thing is, to expresse what is your faith, what is ours.

Next, what Society in all ages professed, and pub­likely recessitated with your Church or ours, doe publikely teach and recessitate: I meane affirmatiue­ly not negatiuely, for no man doth teach or recessi­tate what he doth denie.

This I haue briefely done in the definition of a Protestant Church.

I pray you giue me a definition of the Romane Church.

Whereas you say that all our Ministers are sworne to the 39 Articles, you are deceiued, it is not so.

FINIS.
A DIALOGVE CONCERNIN …

A DIALOGVE CONCERNING THIS QVESTION, VVhere was your Church before Luther and Caluin.

Giuing good directions how to discouer FISHERS folly.

By VV. C.

Printed M.DC.XXIII.

Mr. W. C. his Dialogue concerning this question, VVhere was your Church before Luther?
A Dialogue betweene E and D.

E.

ANswer this question, Where was your Church before Luther?

D.

Euen where our doctrine was, sometime in one coun­trey, sometime in another, as it pleased God in his wise dispensation, who caries the light of his Gospell, as hee doth the Sunne through the world, to illuminate nations at seuerall times therewith, according to his will.

E.

That is a faire generall; but will you tell vs, who were these? what countrey people? what Doctors? who taught as yee teach?

D.

Looke the Churches of Asia, Africke and of Eu­rope, consider them as they were before the mystery of ini­quitie ca [...]e to the height, and you shall see that they all had the same doctrine a [...]d forme of a Church that wee haue in all substantiall points pertaining to Religion.

E.

But you are not able to name one before Luther, teach­ing in all things as he did.

D.

This is a peece of Sophistrie, whereby your decei­uers blind the ignorant.

E

How so? should not the teachers of the truth agree in all things, in one harmonie?

D.

I grant they should, and thanks be to God they do also in all substantiall things which are the Articles of our [Page 20] faith. The Buckler of Fa [...], published in French by M. Peter du Moulin, translated into English, & twise printed, Anno 1624 is a most excellent book for these present times, concer­ning Luther, &c. let Luther an­swer it at his best le [...]sure, or Sweet, or Antho­ny [...], of any Iesuit or Masse-priest whoso­euer. But is this a good reason, because some Doctors in some opinions differ, whereof men may be ignorant and saued neuerthelesse, that therefore these Doctors teach no truth, and their Churches are no true Churches?

E.

That seemes to be hard indeed.

D.

You haue reason for you so to think. For in one age Victor with the Church in the West was in a different opi­nion from Policrates and the Churches of the East; and Ie­rome had his owne discordance with Augustine; and the first [...]athers of the primitiue Church were Chiliasts: shall it thereupon follow, that because in this point they taught not in all things as wee doe, that therefore they were not a Church?

E.

It is no reason.

D.

Cyprian in the point of rebaptizing taught not as Cornelius: what of that? will it follow that he was not a faithfull Pastor, or the Church of Carthage was not a true Church?

E.

It followes not indeed.

D.

VVhy then do you vrge me to giue you one before Luther or Calvin, who in all points taught as wee teach? The Doctors of the Church both ancient and recent, are men subiect to infirmities; for no man vpon earth hath his vnderstanding perfect, whereof it comes to passe, that in some things one of them differs from another: but as to the Articles of the faith and substance of Christian religion whereby comes saluation, sure it is Tertullian and Cyprian, Ambrose, Augustine, Luther and Calvin, haue all deliuered one doctrine and did teach the way of God truly.

E.

Then you thinke the Fathers of the Primitiue Church were of your Religion.

D.

I thinke so indeed, and hope to die in the same faith wherein they liued and died.

E.

It would be thought strange to heare that in Italy, that the Doctors of the Primitiue Church were of the Protestants Religion.

D.

No marvell though it be strange there where truth [Page 21] is a stranger: but this answer was giuen you and them both, by a worthy Doctor of our Church, The light of Cambridge, M. Doctor Whi­takers, in Cam­planum. M. Doctor Whi­takers, and yet we stand to it: Patros in maximis sunt nostri, in multis narij, in minimis vestri: Such Fathers (saith Doctor Whitakers) as haue written before vs and you both, in grea­test things are ours, in many things are doubtfull, in smal­lest things they are yours.

E.

Well, I will remember that, God willing: but in the dayes of Papistrie, wherewith you say the world was blinded, where was your Church?

D.

Answer me but another question, and it shall re­solue you.

E.

What is that?

D.

Your Doctors say, that when Antichrist shall come, the Church shall flie to the Desert, that is, as themselues ex­pound it. The Rhemists vpon Reuel. 11. The Church shall be without publike state of re­giment, and open free exercise of holy functions; neither shall it be vnknowne to the faithfull which follow it, as this day may be seene the like by the Church of Romane Catholikes in many parts of England.

E.

What doth that helpe you?

D.

Very much. That which they themselues say will be done, we say is done: Antichrist hath already chased the Church to the wildernesse, and so oppressed it, that for a time it had no publike state of regiment, nor open free ex­ercise of holy functions, yet was it not vnknowne to the faithfull that followed it, nor to the enemies that persecu­ [...]ed it, as this day may be seene by the Church of Christian Catholikes in many parts of France.

E.

Will ye make that cleare, and I thinke you haue wonne much.

D.

VVhat greater clearnesse can you craue? If this an­swer be good to cleare the Popes Church when they say it will be obscured by Antichrist, and yet be, is it not as good to iustifie our Church, when we say, it hath been ob­scured by Antichrist, and yet was?

E.

The answer is good enough; only if you can, I would haue [Page 22] you qualifie it more particularly.

D.

There is not one age since the dayes of Christ vn­to this day, wherein I cannot point forth men preaching and professing as we doe: but because your doubt is speci­ally of the time of Papistrie, I will let you see it is a need­lesse question for the Popes Church to demand of vs, where our Church then was? for they found vs alwayes in their teeth before euer Luther or Caluin were borne.

E.

Make that good.

D.

See Reinerus vp­on the Apoc. Reinerus a popish Inquisitor, who liued more then three hundred yeares ago, speaking of the poore men of Lyons, and calling them in contempt Valdenses, Leonistae, saith, they were more pernicious to the Church of Rome then all other sects, 3. Reasons why the Walden [...]es much vexed the Rom. Church. for three causes. First, because it hath been of longer continuance: for some say, this sect hath en­dured since the Apostles times. The second cause is, be­cause it is more generall: for there is almost no Land in the which this Sect doth not creepe. The third cause, for that all other Sects doe bring an horror with the hainousnesse of their blasphemies against God, but this Sect of Leonists hath a great shew of godlinesse, because they liue iustly be­fore men, and beleeue all things well concerning God, and all the Articles which are contained in the Creed, onely they blaspheme and hate the Church of Rome.

Now there is the testimonie of an enemie making an­swer for vs, which may serue to stop the mouthes of all our enemies from demanding of vs any more, Where was your Church before Luther?

E.

1. but he calls them a Sect, and sayes, they blasphemed the Church.

D.

So the Priests of the Iewes called the Church of Christians a Sect of Nazarites, Acts 24.5. what is that to the matter? yet he grants they are such a Sect, as first had been from the beginning; secondly, had been in all coun­treys; and thirdly was honest in life and sound in faith, saue onely that they held the Church of Rome to be the Whore of Babel. And that yet this preiudice which you [Page 23] haue conceiued of our Church may be further remoued out of your mind, I pray you consider this: think you not that with good reason we may affirme, that we are in com­munion with them who haue taught the same doctrine that we teach? If our doctrine was in former ages, you will not deny that our Church was then also.

E.

That cannot be denied.

D.

Well then, if you please, name me any controuersie of religion, The Ancient Fathers. concerning any article of faith between vs and the Papists this day, and you shall see that the ancient Fa­thers take our part in it.

E.

That is strange; for they repose their chiefest strength and trust in the ancient Fathers.

D.

Brag what they will, it is true, I say, they may well boast in the drosse of Fathers, and decke their errors with it, but we shall bring you their finest gold. Name you the controuersie, and you shall trie that which I say to be a truth.

E.

There are so many controuersies among you, that I know not which of them to name first.

D.

Then will it please you to take a view of those which I haue gathered for my owne priuate vse.

E.

With a very good will: let me see what they are.

D.

They are noted & set downe in foure special books of the Protestants, and I haue obserued and collected them for my owne comfort and confirmation in the faith: for as first of all I learned the way of saluation in the Scrip­tures, so finding that the Doctors of the primitiue Church (produced in these foure speciall books: 1. Doctor White his Way to the true Church: 2. Illyricus his Catalogus testim. veritatis, augmented twice by Goularitus: 3. Doctor Rei­nolds his fiue conclusions or Theses the fift, quinta Conclus. quinta Thes. in English, but more large in Latin: 4. Pola­nus his Symphonia Catholica; speciall bookes, writ by foure Protestant Preachers) expounded the Scriptures confor­mable to the doctrine of our teachers, I was greatly therein confirmed: for these are the two great props of our faith, [Page 24] which [...]inentius giues vs against all heresies, Cap. 2.

E.

You haue reason for you: for if your doctrine be so war­ranted, Two maine props & proofs of religion. both by diuine authoritie of God in his word, and hu­mane testimony of the best Doctors of the ancient Church, they are to be iudged most vnworthy that make contradiction to you.

D.

These points are so fully performed (as I haue said) in three special books by three worthy Protestant Diuines, and so methodically set downe, that I thinke my shewing to you of these three bookes, and your reading of them will most fully content and satisfie you; I say againe, by Gods help▪ they will giue you most full satisfaction, as also to all others who with indifferencie wil vouchsafe to reade them.

F.

I pray you who be those three Diuines who haue writ those three bookes, and which be the bookes.

D.

Doctor White is the first, and the booke is, his Way to the true Church.

E.

Which is the second?

D.

Fla [...]cus Illyricus his Catalogus testium veritatis, aug­mented twice by Simon Goulartius, set out by him the se­cond time in one volume in a large Folio.

E.

Which is the third?

D.

Doctor Reinolds his six Conclusions in English, placed at the end of his Conference with Hart: but it is his fift Conclusion which I meane for this purpose, quinta Conclus. or his six Theses in Latin. of his last augmented Edition, and thereof I meane his fift Thes. quinta Thes. more full then the English.

E.

And what haue these foure Diuines performed in those foure bookes, to giue comfort, content and satisfaction on this very point we haue now in hand, viz. Where your Church, doctrine, teachers were before Luther? for I assure you, this is the maine matter, which troubleth many at this present: for Campian was not so busie in Queen Elizabeths dayes with his Audito nomine Ecclesiae, hostis expalluit; but Fisher, Sweet, Clarke and other Iesuites are as busie now in King Iames his dayes, euen at this present, with their Where was your Church [Page 25] before Luther? Where your Preachers? where your pro­fessors? where your doctrine? let vs heare their names; Names, names, names, names, cries the Fisher catched in his owne Net.

D.

What haue they performed? enough at the full (in the mercie of God) to satisfie you and all other indifferent Readers, that without preiudice looke into those their la­bours.

E.

How might I come by those bookes? may I meet with them in Pauls Church-yard for I would very gladly buy them.

D.

You may most easily: but stay, let mee a little call back that word, for they are so fast bought vp, that I doubt they are almost out of print, for (and that worthily) they are exceedingly in request.

E.

So much the more the Printers are too blame, that they giue not a second impression to them.

D.

A second impression, say you; why Doctor Whites Way to the true Church hath beene printed foure seuerall times, now within a few yeares, and notwithstanding are almost all sold vp, but I heare a fifth impression is now in hand. Polanus his Symphonia, Illyricus and Doctor Reinolds, their bookes (before named) haue beene diuers times im­printed also; so that you need not blame the Printers, who are carefull to make new impressions, and new supplies of bookes so worthy, and so much in request, and so greatly sought after.

E.

This should argue, that their bookes (by Gods blessing) are very powerfull, and win many to the truth, they vent so ex­ceedingly fast.

D.

O yes, God be thanked, preaching and writing succeed happily with a blessed successe: doubt you not but at this day for one Papist, England doth enioy xx. xl. yea rather an hundred Protestants. Masses and stage-playes grow odious.

E.

You make me long for these foure bookes, I would gladly be in hand with them.

D.

Why Sir, seeing your longing is so great, I haue [Page 26] them at hand for you, vse them so long as you please: now I fetch them out of my Studie.

E.

Are these they, Sir, I pray you.

D.

Yes indeed, these are the very bookes.

E.

Now I pray you Sir, before that we open them, tell me in briefe what they say and performe in these matters.

D.

That, good Sir, I will most willingly performe.

E.

And I most willingly listen and giue attentiue care vn­to you.

D.

God direct with his holy Spirit, and giue a blessing in his Sonne Christ Iesus. These foure bookes following do fully furnish any Scholler to make answer to all Iesuits, Masse-priests, Fisher, Clarke, Sweet, &c. to that question, Where was your Religion before the dayes of Luther?

1. Doctor White (to begin first with him) in his book intituled The Way to the true Church, Digression 52. shew­eth, that the present Religion of the Romane Church was obserued and resisted in all ages as it came in and increased; naming withall the persons that made resistance, and the points wherein, and the time when, from fiftie yeares to fif­tie, throughout all ages since Christ, compendiously ob­serued out of history, for the satisfying of their error, that so much conceit the antiquitie of Papistrie, and thinke it was neuer controlled till Luthers time. And Digression 48 Sect. 50. the said Doctor White setteth downe a briefe and direct answer to the Papists, when they say, we cannot as­signe a visible company professing the same faith in euery point that we doe, euer since Christ till now, without in­terruption.

2. Flacius Illyricus (the second I named) in his booke intituled Catalogus testim veritatis, A Catalogue of the witnesses of the truth, augmented twice by Simon Goular­tius, and by him the second time set out in one volume, in a large Folio, sheweth, that the present rel gion of the Ro­mane Church wa [...] obserued and resisted in all ages as it came in and increased; naming withall the persons that made the resistance, and the points wherein, and the time [Page 27] when, from an hundred yeares to an hundred, throughout all ages since Christ, compendiously obserued out of hi­story, for the satisfying of their error, that so much conceit the antiquitie of Papistrie, and thinke it was neuer control­led till Luthers time.

3. The third is Doctor Reinolds (that light of Oxford) in his fift Conclusion, quinta Conclus. in English, ioyned to the end of his Conference with Hart; but far more [...]lly in his fift Latin Thesis, quinta Thes. of the last augmented Edition, sheweth that the present Church of Rome is nei­ther the holy Catholicke Church, nor a sound member of the Catholicke Church; that the present Religion of the Romane Church was obserued and resisted in all ages; bringeth in abundantly proofes and testimonies out of the ancient Fathers, Councels and records, good Authors, School-men, the Papists owne writings, &c. in all the con­trouerted points betwixt the Protestants and Papists.

4. The fourth is Amandus Polanus his Symphonia Ca­tholica, though named the last, yet as admirable as the rest, yea in one thing more admirable, viz. in bringing in the an­cient Fathers in all the controuerted points betwixt Pro­testants and Papists in all ages most fully.

E.

You come to the point indeed, and say more then euer I heard; and I hope these your foure bookes wil make all this good that you haue named.

D.

They will indeed most plentifully: take them away with you, and keepe them euen so long as you please.

E.

I thanke you most heartily, good Sir; you bring me to a feast indeed [...] what varietie of daintie dishes haue you set before me?

D.

God in Christ Iesus blesse them vnto you.

An Advertisement to the Reader concer­ning Polanus his Symphonia Catholica, and M r. Robert Cooke his booke concerning counterfet Fathers.

Polanus his Symphonia Catholica is written in common-place manner, out of the ancient Fathers and other good Authors, from the dayes of Christ and his Apostles to the times of Luther, handling the principall controuerted points methodically betwixt the Protestants and the Pa­pists, written purposely to satisfie that demand of Papists, Where was the Protestants religion before the times of Luther? Oh that some good religious Scholler or other would translate it into English, for the common profite of the Church of England, against the insulting brags of Fisher and other Papists, who say, we had no religion before Lu­thers times, that hee hatched it, &c.

I wish likewise that M. Robert Cooke his Latin Treatise concerning counterfet Fathers was translated into English, for the good of those who vnderstand not Latin; Papists alledging counterfet Fathers so often.

FINIS.

This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Text Creation Partnership. Searching, reading, printing, or downloading EEBO-TCP texts is reserved for the authorized users of these project partner institutions. Permission must be granted for subsequent distribution, in print or electronically, of this EEBO-TCP Phase II text, in whole or in part.