A TREATISE OF THE LAWFVLNES OF HEARING OF THE Ministers in the church of England: penned by that learned and Reverent deuine, M r. Iohn Robinsz. late Pastor to the English church of God in Leyden. Printed accor­ding to the Copie that was found in his studie after his decase: and now published for the com­mon good. TOGETHER WITH A LETTER written by the same Authore: and approued by his church: vvhich followeth after this Treatise.

IOHN 7. 24.
Iudge not according to pearance, but Iudge righteous Iudgment.

Printed Anno 1634.

THE PRINTERS TO the Christian Reader.

CHristian Reader. How euer the verie naming of the Author of this following Treatise, vvere sufficient reason for vs to pu­blish this same vnto the vvorld, in regard of those large abilities aboue many others, vvhich the Lord had bestowed vpon him, and in regard he being now at rest, with the Lord, and so hauing finished long since his course in this his pilgrimage, vve cannot expect to haue any more vse of his helpe this waye, and although it were great pittie that such a vvorke as this should be concealed for so long time, considering the worke vvas perfected, and vvritted by his owne hand, and so found after his death (which is nine yeares since) in his studie, yet haue we thought it good all this while to con­ceale it, in respect of that desire vve had to the peace of that church, where­of [Page] the Author of this Treatise vvas for so many yeares a Pastor. In regard vve did perceiue that some though not manie vvere contrari [...] minded to the Authors judgement expressed in this Trtatise: And this vve judge to be a sufficient reason of our so long de­laying of publishing this Treatise to the world: Yet to our griefe vve haue now just cause to put this same on foote; For as vvhen a citie is in danger of enemies to be surprized, it is then high time to take vp all those vvarr­like Munitions vvhich happily before that time vvere cast aside and not re­garded, that so they may the better maintaine their citie, and the priui­ledges of it against their enemies: so vve judge it as necessarie if not more vvhen vve see the enemies of Gods church to incroach vpon the priuiled­ges of the same especiallie vvhen they ayme at the vtter ruinating of it, that then it is high time for vs to [Page] defende the cause of Christ, and it vvas the vvisdome of Iehojada the High Priest perceiuing the malice of Athalia, seeking to destroy the vvhole seed of Iehosaphat, to hide Ioash the right heyre of the King­dome, and vvhen he sawe a fit op­portunitie then to reueale him, and make him knowne, so vve vvho haue obserued Athalias spirit in part to be in some, vvho haue laboured to assume the power to themselues, vvhich is proper to the church, and so Diotrephes like vvould cast out vvhom they please, and retayne vvhom they thought good, and ra­ther then they vvill be hindred in this their attempt, they vvill la­bour to rent that church in pieces in vvhich they haue liued for manie yeares together, and that vve may not seeme to accuse them of any thing vvithout just reason, vve desire the Christian Reader, and themselues to consider this that followes▪.

[Page] First, their schisme or as they call it their leauing of the church, doth arise vpon this occasion, to wit, that 2. which vvere members of the same church with them hauing vpon some occasion heard some of the Ministers in En­gland preach, and it coming to the knowledge of some of these vvho haue now made this rent the church, they vvould presently haue these persons dealt vvithall as for sinne, and if they did not repent after dealing, they vvould haue the church to proceed to excomunicate them ipso facto, vvhich the church not willing to con­sent vnto, these men could not be satis­fied, but they vvould haue their owne vvilles done or els they vvould rent from the church, vvhich proceeding of theirs, if it vvere approued of and followed no church could long continue together in peace, for vvhat these foure or fiue men haue done, that may any other man doe, so that if any man do conceiue any of his brethren to [Page] vvalke in any such sinne, vvhich he judges doth deserue excomunication, if the church will not thereto consent, he may rent himselfe from the same; Although the Author of this Treatise haue taught them otherwise, to vvit, that if the church, see not that to be sinne, vvhich I see to be a sinne, I hauing informed the church there­of according to my place, I haue dis­scharged my dutie, and the sinnes lyes vpon the church (if it be a sin­ne, and not vpon me; but it seemes these men do looke for that in the church on earth vvhich is onely to be found in heauen, for themselues haue affirmed, and that before diuers wit­nesses that there is no sinne small or great that is to borne vvithall, and that the verie speaking of a vvord through fraylty about worldly busines­ses vpon the Sabbaoth day, should haue as seuere a sentence, as he that shall openly & prophanely transgresse against the 4. Commandement, the [Page] verie naming of with their opinion, is sufficient to discouer their weaknes, & that we may yet further discouer these mens folly to the world more fully, we will shew you how contrary they are to themselues in this their iudgment, for as they say, and do affirme that there is no sinne vvhich is to be borne with­all in the church, yet themselues, or at least the chief of them do practise the contrarie, as for example, one in stead of manie may serue the turne: The chiefe of Author of this trouble doth hold, and so hath for manie yeares together, to vvit, that it is vnlawfull for the members of one church to haue communion with ano­ther church, and yet not vvithstan­ding this his judgement, he can beare vvith one, vvho hath contrary to this his judgement practised, and so pro­fesseth still to do vpon occasion, and yet not vvithstanding his so practi­zing, and so professing, he is receiued among them, and is their chiefe if not [Page] their onely Teacher which they haue: So that vve may here easily perceiue, that though this man doth vse Iehu's peace against the sinnes of others, with whom he desires to be alienated, yet he can beare vvith as great sinnes in others, in his judgement vvith vvhom he desires to vvalke, we could shew manie more reasons to proue his partialitie, but then vve should ex­ceed the bonds of an Epistle onely vve desire to giue the Reader to take no­tice of those two things: First, that this practize of hearing the Ministers of the church of England, is not against any Article of faith, vvhich is by this church professed, vvhereof the Author of this Treatise vvas a Pastor, it being no Act of Church Commu­nion, for if hearing simplie vvere an Act of Communion, then euerie h [...]tique, or Atheist, or whatsoeuer he were that should come into the church of God, should haue Communion vvith them, vvhich if it vvere true, [Page] as this following Treatise proues the contrarie, then it vvere good for euery church that will auoid commu­nion with profane men, to meete in priuate, and then to shut their dore when their own compagnie is meet to­gether: else I cannot see how they can auoid hauing communion with wicked men: to wit if beare hearing be an acte of communion: Secondly, as this hearing is not against any Article of their faith, so likewise it was not in the iudgement of the church esteemed as a thing that might not be borne withall, The letter you shall find after the Trea­tise. & this may appeare by a copy of a letter which we haue heer fol­lowing published where the church in the counsell which they giue to the church of London do sufficiently make it appeare, that their iudgement did manifestlie differ from those which now haue made this breach, and which is well to be marked by the reader how that the church when this letter was write: enioyed the Pastor, and their [Page] company was fiue tymes greater then it was when this breach was made: & because these men in his their error are vvilling to retraine it, and not being able to make any sufficient reply to the answere made in this Treatise to their obiections, though the manu­script therof hath bene in their hands for many yeares, yet because they will find somthing to say, more then others haue done heretofore, though of lesse force, therefore they haue ioyned some new obiections which both the seducer and the seduced do thinke are vnan­swerable, therfore it will not be amisse for vs to propound them, and to giue some answere to them that so if their stomachs serue they may reply to all at once: First, they obiect and say that we hold the church of England to be a false church, and the Ministers thereof to be Antichristian, and yet we go thither to worship the true God.

Before we answere directly to this objection, we shall intreate the Reader [Page] and themselues to consider of this that followes.

First, A church may be said to be false in diuers respects, and accor­ding to those respects, vve are to haue diuers Considerations thereof, as first, a church may be said to be false in respect of outward order, to vvit, vvhen a church is gathered to­gether, not according to the rule of Christ neither, in their outward go­uernement, do they conforme there­vnto, now this church cannot be said to be the church of Christ being thus erected, and gouerned contrary to the rule of Christ, but is false and Anti­christian, and yet notwithstanding the faith professed by this church, and the doctrines, taught in this church may be sound, and according to God.

Secondly, a church may be false not onely in respect of outward order, but likewise in respect of faith and doctrine.

Now to this latter, vve counsell no [Page] man to go, because from thence no good can be expected, and that is the esteeme vve haue of the church of Rome.

But now as in a true church in re­spect of outward order, there may be manie false doctrines taught, so in a church, that is false in respect of outward order, there may be manie sound, and seasonable truths taught, and this esteeme vve haue of the preaching in England: Namelie, that the doctrine there taught ac­cording to the Articles of their faith is sound, and the effects of it hath appeared, in the vvorking of faith in the hearts of manie thou­sands.

For the outward order, or mee­ting there as a church, that con­cernes themselues, and those that are in vnion, vvith that church estate, but not all that heare them.

Now that worshipping of God which consists in hearing his word is warrant­able [Page] for vs to doe in England, we proue it by this argument.

That preaching which ordina­rily begets men to the faith of Christ may lawfully be heard.

But the preaching of many Ministers in the Church of En­gland hath, and doth ordinarily beget men to the faith of Christ.

Therefore the preaching of many Ministers in England may lawfully be heard.

The first part of this sillogisme is pro­ued out of Rom 10. where the Apostle telling what is the ordinary vvay God vses to beget men to the faith of Christ telles vs, it comes by hearing of the vvord of God preached, if faith comes by hearing the vvord of God preached (to vvit, if that be the outward mea­nes) then there is no question but that a man may heare such preaching, and any man may blush for shame, that [Page] shall deny this: so that the major part of the argument is cleare:

And for the Minor parte they can­not deny it, no more then a man at noon day can deny the sunne to shine: for if any man make question whether faith comes ordinarily by the prea­ching and hearing in England, it is a great question vvether they euer had faith or no: yet because some are so grosse as to deny this, we will therefore: proue the contrarie by this Argument.

That preaching and hearing which makes them which were altogether carnall, and so not ca­pable of a church-estate, to be­come saints & so fit for a church-estate: That preaching must needs beget men to the faith:

But the preaching and hearing in England, made them that were vnfit & carnall to become saints, and so fit members to the true church, which were not so be­fore.

[Page] Therfore the preaching in En­gland and hearing the same doth beget men to the faith: That the preaching, and hearing in En­gland hath done this: Witnesse the church of Leyden, and of Amstelredam.

Let them tell vs where they recei­ued their faith: if they say they had it not till they ioyned in these bodies, how could they then be true to their owne grounds, that none but visible Christians are fit matter for the church vvhereas none can be so esteemed ex­cept in the iudgement of charitie, we iudge them to haue true faith.

But some of these that haue made this diuision haue not denyed, but faith is wrought by the preaching and hearing in England: and yet which is wonderfull contradiction: they say it is not the vvord of God as it is there preached: so that it seemes there is something besides the vvord of God which is an ordinary meanes to beget [Page] men to the faith, and there is another vvord besides Gods vvord that vvill do it; the like absurditie hath sildome bene heard from any that professe them selues to be Christians, and that they may, not seeme to say this vvithout some reason, marke the reason that they bring to proue it, say they we do deny that to be the vvord of God, as it is there preached: by a false Ministry, though the vvord it selfe be of God yet as it is by them preached, it is none of Gods vvord so Gods vvord here stands at fast, and loose, it is Gods vvord, and it is not Gods vvord, as if they should say, it is Gods word if M r. Canne shall preach it: but if another, that is a Minister in England preach the same it is none of Gods vvord: so that mens outward callings true, or false, makes the vvord to be the vvord of God, or not to be the vvord of God, an asser­tion rather to be pitied then refuted, being litle better then blasphemy, that which they bring to make this assertion [Page] good, to vvit, that any man hauing an outward calling vvhich is vnlaw­full makes the vvord of God, vvhich he preacheth, not to be the vvord of God, and this, say they to proue it, it vvas true incense vvhich Nadab and Abihu tooke, Lev. 10. 1. to offer vp to the Lord, but because they tooke strang fire, and not the fire, vvhich vvas from the Altar as the Lord had ap­pointed, therefore the Lord sent a fire to destroy them: so say they, it is the true vvord of God, which is prea­ched in England, but because they preach the same by an vnlawfull office, therefore the Lord abhorres it: A stranger collection I thinke can hardly by heard, for here strang fire is opposed to an vnlawfull outward calling, vvhich nothing can be more absurd, for Nadab and Abihu had a true out­vvard calling to offer, they vvere the sonnes of Aaron (saith the text) ther­fore if any thing hence might be con­cluded, in iust proportion, it must be [Page] to the doctrine taught, and not in the least to the calling: so that vve may from thence gather thus much, that if a Minister in regard of his out­vvard calling true: shall teach any thing, that is not from the Lord, they are to expect Gods iudgement for the same, and more cannot hence be col­lected, further, let it be shewed, that euer any prophet in the old or new Testament vvas euer termed a false prophet in respect of his outward cal­ling, but allwaies in respect of his do­ctrine; vve can find that such as had true outvvard calling in the true church, yet vvere false prophets in regard of their doctrine in many per­ticulers as Christ teaches concerning the Scribes and Pharises for their false expounding of the Law, let them shew the like for outvvard callings: Thus haue vve thought good, hauing bene eare vvitnesses of these things here propounded to set downe our censure of them, desyring the Lord to make [Page] this vvhole vvorke (for the generall good now set forth) take effect in those that loue the Trueth.

Fare you wel.

OF The lawfulnes of hea­ring the Ministers, of the Church of England, by Iohn Robinson.

AS they that affect alienation from others make their dif­ferences as great, and the ad­verse opinion or practise as odious, as they can; thereby to further their desired victorie ouer them, and to harden themselues, and their side against them: So on the contrarie, they, vvho desire peace and accord, both interprete things in the best part that reasonnablie they can and seek hovv, and vvhere they may finde any lavvfull dore of entry into accord, & agreement vvhat others. Of vvhich latter number I professe my selfe (by the grace of God) both [Page 2] a companion and guide: speciallie in regard of my christian countri­men, to vvhom God hath tied me in so manie inviolable bonds: ac­counting it a crosse, that I am in any perticuler compelled to discent from them; But a benefite, and matter of reioiceng, vvhen I can, in any thing vvith good conscience, vnite vvith them, in matter: if not in manner; or vvhere it may be, in both. And this affection, the Lord, and my conscience are my vvitnesses, I haue alvvaies norished in my breast, euen vvhen I seemed furthest dravvne from them. And so all that haue taken knovvledge of my course can testifie vvith mee, and hovv I haue still opposed in others, and repressed in mine ovvne (to my povver) all sovver zeale against, and peremptorie rejection of such, as vvhose holie graces cha­lenged better vse and respect from all christians.

[Page 3] And in testimonie of mine af­fection this vvay, & for the freeing of mine ovvne conscience, and in­formation of other mens: I haue penned this discourse, tending to proue the hearing of the vvord of God preached by the Ministers of the church of England: (able to open and applie the doctrines of faith by that church professed) both lawfull, and in cases, necessarie for all, of all sects, or sorts of christians, hauing oppor­tunitie and occasion of so doing: though sequestring themselues from all com­munion with the Hierachicall order there established.

Three sorts of opposites I make account to meet vvithall. The first of them, vvho truly desire, and care­fully endevour to haue their whole course both in religion, and other­vvise, framed by the holy, and right zeale of Gods Word, either for their confirmation in the trueth; or refor­mation, vvherein, through humane [Page 4] frailtie they) step aside. And vnto them especiallie I direct this my dis­course: begging at his hands vvho is the Father of lights, Iem. 1. 17 and from vvhom commeth downe euerie good and perfect gift, for them, as for my selfe, that as he hath giuen vs to set our faces tovvards heauen, and to seek him vvith the vvhole heart, Psal. 119. 6. so he would not suffer vs to vvander from his commaundements, to the right hand, or to the left.

A second sort is of them, vvhose tender and scrupulous conscience, makes them fearefull, and jealous of euerie thing, vvhich hath in it the least appearāce or shevv of euil: least comming too neare it, they be defiled by it, one vvay or other. This their godly zeale, and tender nes of heart is to be loued of all men, and cherished by all good meanes. Onely such are to be in­treated, for their ovvne good, to take knowledge of a distinction [Page 5] most vsefull for their direction, in things lawfull in their kinde, and good in their right vse. Of vvhich some are onely naturallie good in their kinde, but not simply com­maunded of God, as, to get, and keep the riches, and credit of the vvorld; to enjoy outvvard peace, or other bodly comfort. Others are morallie good in their kinde, and commaunded of God, as to heare the vvord of God, obey the Magi­strate, and the like, Novv in things of the former sort, it is verie requi­site (considering both their nature and ours) that vve keep a jealous eye, and strait hand ouer our selues, and our waies. For them, they are not in their kinde enjoyned as the other: neither do the scriptures any vvhere require of men, to be rich, or the like: as they doe to hear Gods Word, obey authoritie, &c. And for our selues we are proue, and in dan­ger to ouerstraint for the getting, [Page 6] and enjoying of them, as being na­turallie pleasing good things. So as if out of a godly jealousie ouer our hearts tovvards them, vve keep not our selues from going too neer the side, for the getting, or keeping of them: vve shall by one storme of temptation or other, be blovvne in to the ditch of sin and destruction. But now, for the practise and per­formance of duties simplie morall, and commaunded in their kinde, as is the hearing of Gods Word, spe­ciallie by Gods people, vve ought to strain to the vtmost, and to go as neer the vvinde, as may be: seing nothing but apparant sin in the vvay can excuse the vvithdravving from it, vvhen occasiō of enjoying it is offred. Oh that there vvere not to be found vvho being verie scru­pulous of comming neer to any thing amisse in outvvard ordinan­ces: or to any person failing in them: yet make no scruple of [Page 7] complying, and conforming vvith the vvorld so farre in the eagre pur­suit of wordlie profits: immoderate vse of vvorldlie delights and fulfil­ling the lusts of the vvorld and flesh dvvelling in them, as that there appears scarse an hayr-breath, or difference betvveene them and meer vvorldlings, vvhich know not God. Which latter euils are both vvorse in themselues, as being ex­preslie condemned by the lavv of God, and light of nature: and more odious in the persons: as being more personall, free and voluntarie, then those in the other, to vvhich they are carried by the violent cour­rent of the times.

A third sort of opposites I make account to meet vvith, more vn­tractable then the former: and more vehementlie bent against the thing propounded by me, out of preju­dice and passion, then the other by scruple of conscience, or shevv of [Page 8] reason. To them I can hardlie say any thing: (it not being their man­ner to read, or vvillinglie to hear that vvhich crosseth their preju­dices) yet something I must saic touching them, out of the vvofull experience of manie yeares taken of them, though not much I thanke the Lord, amongst them, vnto vvhom I haue ministred.

Some of these I haue found car­ried vvith so excessiue admiration of some former guides in their course, as they think it halfe heresie to call into question any of their determinations, or practises. We must not thinke, that onely the Pharisees of old, and papists of later times are superstitiously addicted to the traditions of the elders, and au­thoritie of the church. In all Sects there are diuers (speciallie of the vveaker sort, vvho being the lesse reall in their conceptions, are the more personall) that rather chuse [Page 9] to followe the trodde of blinde tra­dition, if beaten by some such fore­goers, as they admire, then the right vvaie of Gods Word by others to be shewed them aftervvards.

Some again are as much addicted to themselues as the former to others: conceauing in effect, though they vvill not professe it, the same of their owne heads, vvhich the papists do of their head the Pope, viz: that they cannot erre, or be deceaued: and this speciallie in such matters, as for vvhich they haue suffred trouble, and affliction for­merlie: and so haueing bought them deare, they valew them highly. But it is to marchantlike, to striue to ouer fell a thing, vvhich vve haue formerlie ouer bought: vve must buy the trueth, and not fell it, at any rate: but must account nothing either true or good, accor­ding to the valuation vvhich vve haue set vpon it, but God.

[Page 10] There is also a third sort highly aduanceing a kinde of priuatiue goodnes and religion: and vvho bend their force rather to the vvea­king of other men in their courses then to the building vp of them­selues in their owne: and in trueth rather to seperation from men not onely in euill, but euen in that vvhich is good, for some other euill conceaued in them, then to vnion vvith God, and his people in his holie ordinances: and halfe ima­gining that they draw neer enough to God if they can vvithdraw far enough from other men. Great zeale they haue against the false church, ministerie, and vvorship so being, or by them conceaued so to be; and against any appearing euill in the true, but litle for that vvhich is true and good, as their practice manifests: but euill is as contrarie to euill, as good is to euil; and so is that zeale plainlie carnall, [Page 11] vvhich carries a man further against euill, then for good: seeing no euill is fo euill as good is good.

Fourthly, there are some to be found so sowred vvith moodines, & discontentement as they become vnsociable, & almost Lukanthropoi, Werewolfs, as they speake, if they se nothing lamentable, they are readie to lament. If they take con­tentment in any: it is in them alone, vvhom they finde discontented. If they read any bookes, they are onely invectiues, speciallie against publique states, and their gouer­nours. All things tending to accord and vnion any manner of vvay are vnwelcome vnto them. They haue their portion in Ismaels blessing. Genes. 16. 12.

Lastly there vvant not, vvho (as Iehu in his fierce marching, couered his ambition, crueltie, and zeale for his owne house vnder the pretext of zeale for Gods) thinke to couer, and palliate their own both grosser [Page 12] and more proper, and personall cor­ruptions, vnder a furious march not onely against the failings, but the persons also failing of infirmitie, in matters of church order, and ordi­nances. Who if they vvere vvell acquainted, and duly affected with their owne both more voluntarie, and greater sins, vvould slack their Iehus peace, yea turn their course, though not to vvalke vvith others in euill (vvhich God forbid) yet to apply, & accommodate themselues vnto them, in that which is good, so far as possiblie they could obserue any vvay by the Lord opened vnto them. I could instance in, and name diuers perticuler persons monstrous­lie growne out of kinde, this vvay. But that course I leaue vnto them, vvho rather desire the disgraceing, then the bettering of them against vvhom they deal: or perhaps con­ceaue in their leauened hearts that there is no other vvay of bettering, [Page 13] speciallie persons of meant condi­tion, then by shameing, and dis­grac [...]ing them. Genes. 49. 5. 6. But let not my soule come in their secrete, in vvhose ha­bitations are such instruments of cruellic.

These things thus promised, the objections follovv, vvhich I haue either heard from others, or can conceaue of my selfe most coulle­rable against the practize by me pro­pounded. And they are of two sorts. Some of them are framed vpon sup­position, that the ministres in that church are in themselues lawfull, & of God: but not yet to be heard by reason of the abuses, and euills to be found in their ministrations. Others vvithdraw hearin (& those the more) vpon the contrarie sup­position: to vvit, that the very order and constitution of that church and ministerie is papall, and vnlawfull. Novv the examination of the grounds of the one or other I vvill [Page 14] not in this place, medle vvith: but (though both cannot be true) vvill for the satisfieng of the vvithdraw­ers on both parts, graunt for the present, to either part their ground, and so examine distinctlie vvhat exceptions they can or doe build herevpon.

But first, for the former. Suppo­sing a church, and the ministerie, thereof essentiallie lavvfull, it can­not but be lavvfull for the mem­bers of other churches in generall vnion, and assosiation, vvith it to communicate therevvith, in things lavvfull, and lavvfullie done: seing the end of vnion is communion. God hath in vain vnited persons, and states together, if they may in nothing communicate together. But he, who vvould haue vs receaue the vveak in faith, vvhom God hath receaued, vvould not haue vs refuse the fellovvship of churches in that vvhich is good, for any vveaknes, [Page 15] in them, of one sort or other. And this vve haue so plainlie, and plent­fullie commended vnto vs both by the Prophets, yea by Christ him­selfe in the Iewish church; and Apostles, and Apostolicall men in the first christian churchs; in which many errours, & euils of all kindes vvere more then manifest: and the same oft times both so farre spread, and deeply rooted, as the reforming of them vvas rather to be vvished, then hoped for: as that no place is left for doubting in that case by any, vvho desire to follovve their holy steps in faith tovvards God, and charitie tovvards men, and ef­fectuall desire of their ovvne edifi­cation.

The objections of the former sort follovv.

1. OBIECTION.

There is danger of being seduced, and misledd by the errours taught in the astemblies.

ANSWERE.

1. We must not loose the bene­fite of many main trueths taught, Matth 5. chap 23. for daunger of some few errours. 2. Cor 11. 19. [...]. Ioh. 4. 1. 3. Speciallie in lesser matters. Let such read Par­ker of church policy, lib. 1. c. 39 This vvere to feare the deuill more then to trust God, 2. There vvere in the Ievvish church in Christs time, and in divers of the Apostolicall churches aftervvards, more & grea­ter errours taught, then are in any, or ail the churches of England: of vvhich also there are not a fevv, vvhich if their ministers did as fully and faithfully teach and practize all trueths, as they keepe themselues carefully from errours, might com­pare in this busines, vvith any refor­med church in Europe. 3. This [Page 17] exception hath its vvayt against the hearing of Priests and Iesuites, spe­ciallie by the vveaker sort, and lesse­able to discerne of things that differ: But not against many ministers of the church of England.

2. OBIECTION.

He that in any thing pertakes with that church in vvhich sinnes knowne are suffred vnreformed, pertakes in all the sinnes of that church, as he that sweares by the Alter▪ sweares by the offrings vpon it vvhich it sancti­fies, Matth. 23. 19. 20.

ANSWERE.

I partake not in the sinnes of any: how great or manifest soeuer the sinnes bee: or hovv neer vnto me soeuer the persons bee except the same sinnes either be committed, or remain vnreformed by my fault. Othervvise, Christ our Lord had been invvrapped in the guilt of a [Page 18] vvorld of sinnes in the Ievvish church, vvith vvhich church he communicated in Gods ordinances, liuing and dyeng a member therof. If my brother sinne a scandelous sinne, and I by just order, make complaint thereof to the church, I haue done my duty It appertaines to the church to excommunicate him, if he repent not; but not to me except (Popelike) I vvould make my selfe the church. I am guitty of the euill in the common wealth, & familie, for the redressing vvher­of I do not my duty in my place: vvhich if I do in the church as I can, I am free from the sinnes done and suffred there, vvhich sinnes and euils I can no more be said to suffer (vvanting povver to reforme them) then to suffer it to blovv, or rain, because I hinder it not.

But the proofe of the assertion from Matth. 13. is of admirable de­uise. Hovv doth the church sanctifie [Page 19] the sinne of the sinner, as the Alter doth the offering of the offerer? The Alter makes that to become actually an offering or holy gift, vvhich before vvas not an offering actually, but onely gold, silver, or other materiall: So doth not the church make any mans sinne to become his sinne, vvhich it vvas not before, but onely suffers the sinne that vvas. But to strain the strings of this imagined proportiō, to make them meet: and to suppose the church in a sence to be as the Alter; yet this only follovves there­vpon: that, as hee vvho partakes vvith the Alter in the vpholding of the offring, partakes vvith the off­ring: so he that partakes vvith the church in the vpholding of any euill, hath his part in the euill also.

And this I graunt vvillingly: but deny, as a most vain imagination, that euerie one, that partakes vvith a church in things lavvfull, joynes [Page 20] vvith it in vpholding the things vn­lavvfull to be found in it. Christ our Lord joyned vvith the Ievvish church in things lavvfull; and yet vpheld nothing vnlavvfull in it.

3. OBIECTION.

But this course of hearing vvill of­fend weak brethren, not persuaded of the lawfullnes of it.

ANSWERE.

1. It vvill offend more, and many of them vveakere, and that more greeuously: if it be not performed. Secondly. It is an offence taken and not giuen: seeing the thing is in it selfe good: in its kinde commaun­ded by God; and in that perticuler, by men in authoritie; and directlie tending to mine edification: and not like vnto eating of flesh, or drin­king of vvine, or the like things of indifferent nature, and left to my free libertie to vse, or not to vse.

[Page 21] And these are the principall objections vpon the former ground: they vpon the latter follovv.

There is in the hands of manie a threatise published by a man of note, containing certain reasons to proue it vnlawfull to heare, or haue spirituall communion with the present ministerie of the church of England. This hath been ansvvered: but in­deed sophisticallie, and in passion: Neither hath the ansvverer much regarded vvhat he said, or vnsaid, so he might gainsay his adversarie. With that ansvvere vvas joyned an other directed to my selfe, and the same doubled pretending to proue Publique communion vpon priuat, but not pressing at all, in the body of the discourse, that consequence; but proceeding vpō other grounds: and in trueth, consisting of a conti­nued equivocation in the terms pu­blique, licence, gouernment, ministry, [Page 22] and the like; dravvne to another sence, then either I intended them, or then the matter in question vvill permit. Whereas he that vvill refute another, should religiously take, & hold to his aduersaries meaning: and if in any perticuler it be not so plainly set dovvne; should spell it, as it vvere out of his vvords. But it is no new thing euen for learned and godly men to take more then lavvfull libertie in dealing vvith them, against vvhom they haue the aduantage of the times favouring them, like the vvind on their backs. But God for bidde I should follovv them heerin. I vvill on the con­trarie vse all plaines, and simplicity, as in the sight of God, that so I may make the naked trueth appeare as it is, to the christian readers eye, vvhat in me lieth.

And for the treatice mentio­ned, it must be obserued, hovv both in the title, and body of the [Page 23] booke, the authour confounds as one hearing of and haueing spirituall communion vvith the ministery▪ &c. vvhich as it is true of such as stand in spirituall and politicall church-vnion vvith a church, and the mi­nisterie thereof, vvho accordingly haue church communion in the publique acts, and exercises of that church: so is it not true of others vvhich are not members of, not in ecclesiasticall vnion and combina­tion vvith the said church.

For the better clearing of things, let vs in a fevv vvords, consider di­stinctly of religious actions, accor­ding to the seuerall ranks, in vvhich they may rightly, & orderly be sett. Some such actions are religious onely, as they are performed by religious persons. And of this sort is hearing (and so reading) of Gods vvord. The scriptures teach, and all confesse, that hearing of the vvord of God goes before faith▪ [Page 24] For faith comes by hearing, Rom. 10. 17 as by an outvvard meanes. Hearing then being before faith, 1. Tim. 1. 5 and faith before all other acts of religion invvard, Rom. 10. 10 or outvvard: Gal. 2. 20 it must needs follovve, that hearing is not simply or of it selfe a vvork of religion: and so not of religious communion. Hearing is properly, and of it selfe, a naturall action, though it be the hearing of the very vvord of God. And I call it a naturall action in it selfe, in a double respect. First, for that the light of nature teacheth euery man to heare, and listen to another, that can and vvill teach and inform him in any thing for his good, diuine or humane. Secondly, for that a meer naturall man, levv, Turk, Infidell, or Idolator, lavvfully may, yea ne­cessarily ought to hear Gods vvord: that so of naturall he may become spirituall.

In the seacond rank I place prea­ching, Psal. 50. 16. 17. & prayer; which are properly [Page 25] acts religious, Pro. 15. 8. and spirituall: as being to be performed the one by a gift, Ioh. 9 31. the other by a grace of Gods spirit.

Of a third sort is the participa­tion in the Sacraments: vvhich or­dinarily at least requires a member shippe in some perticuler and mi­nisteriall church in the participant, they being publique church ordi­nances.

In a fourth order I set the power of suffrage, and voyce gi [...]eing in electing of officers, and censuring of offenders: for vvhich there is re­quisite an interest of the person so voteing, in that perticuler church, as a member thereof.

Of the last sort is the ministra­tion of Sacraments, which requires, vvith the rest fore mentioned, a publique state of ministery in the person administring them.

Novv for preaching by some, & hearing by others (vvhich tvvo al­vvaies go together) they may be, [Page 26] and oft are performed vvithout any religious o [...] sp [...]tuall communion at all passing betvveen the persons preaching or hearing.

When Paul preached to the super­stitious Athenians shal vve conceaue he had spirituall communion vvith that heathenish assemblie? Act. 17. 22. Hovv much lesse had they spirituall, and religious communion vvith him, vvho performed not so much as a religious vvorke in their hearing? As God gaue any of them to be­leeue; they came into invisible, or invvardly spirituall personall com­munion vvith him: as they came to make personall manifestation, and declaration of their faith; they came into outvvard personall com­munion vvith him, Lastly, as they came to joyn in, or vnto some per­ticuler church; in to church com­munion vvith him: els not. So when there comes into the church as­sembly, vnbeleuers, 1. Cor, 14. 23. heathens, Turks, [Page 27] Ievves, Atheists, excommunicates, men of all religious, men of none at all, and there heare: vvhat spiri­tuall communion haue they vvith the church, or state of the teacher, or one vvith another, either in regard of the nature of the act done, or by Gods ordination and institution? Hearing simply is not appointed of God to be a mark, and note either of vnion in the same faith, or order, amongst all that heare: or of diffe­rencing of christians from no chri­stiās: or of members from no mem­bers of the church: as the sacra­ments are notes of both in the par­ticipants. The hearing of the vvord of God is not so inclosed by any hedge, or ditch deuine, or humane, made about it, but lies in common for all, for the good if all.

The perticuler objections follow.

1. OBIECTION.

No man may submit his conscience to be wrought vpon by an vnlawfull, and Antichristian ministery: neither hath God promised, or doth afford any blessing vpon it: neither can any haue the sanctified vse thereof.

ANSWERE.

It cannot be said properly that the office of ministerie vvorkes vpon the conscience of the hearer. The office onely giues povver, and charge to the teacher to teach in such or such a church state. And as it resides in the person of the officer alone, so the communion (lavvfull or vnlavvfull)▪ vvhich any hath vvith it, is in regard of the lavvfull or vnlavvfull ecclesiasticall relation and vnion foregoing betvveen the persons: and not in any vvorking of the office vpon the conscience of any. Secondlie, though God blesse not the vnlavvfull office of [Page 29] ministerie, vvhich is not of him selfe: yet he may, and doth blesse the truthes taught by the officer, Genes. 4 [...]. 5. 6. vvhich are of himselfe, and from heauen. To deny this of many in the church of England, is ( Balaam­like) to curse, vvhere God vvould haue vs blesse.

2. OBIECTION.

To heare such a minister is to ho­nour, approue, and vphold his office of ministery.

ANSWERE.

1. If this be simply true, then vvhen the heathenish Athenians heard Paul preach: or vvhen an vn­beleuer comes into the church as­sembly, and hears the preacher, he approues, honours, and vpholds the office of ministerie, vvhich, vvhat it meanes, he is altogether ignorant.

If any reply: But vve know the ministery of the church to be as it is. I ansvvere, that the knowing of it [Page 30] makes not our act the more, or lesse an act of approbation. If I do an act wherin I indeed approue of a thing, if I know the thing, I really approue of it vpon knowledge: if I know it not, I really approue if it, but igno­rantly. 2. If I approue of the office, simply, because I heare the officer preach, then I much more approue of all the doctrines vvhich hee deli­uers, because I heare him deliuer them. If the latter seem vnreason­nable, so is the former much more, except I be in church communion vvith the officer, and then indeed I really approue of his office: as I also doe of his doctrine, if it be accor­ding to the confessiō of faith made by mee: for then I am in former vnion vvith him in the one, or other, and so haue communion in the acts therof. If this vvere a good ground, that euery one approues of the euil done in matter, or manner, where he is present, none could liue [Page 31] with good conscience in any society of men vpon earth. Persons so min­ded are best alone: for vvith others they vvill keep no peace: no nor vvith themselues neither: if they be true to their ovvne ground. But they plainly balke themselues in their courses, either in vveaknes of judgement, or partialitie of affecti­on, or through vvant of due consi­deration of their vvaies.

3. OBIECTION.

By this then it seemes a man may be present at any act of Idolatrie, and do as others do that practice idolatrie, yet not approue of it. And so the three Nobles in Daniell needed not to haue put themselues vpon such pikes of daunger as they did, for not falling downe, as others did, in the place.

ANSWERE.

1. In the preaching of the truths of the Gospell no Idolatrous act is [Page 32] performed; as there vvas. 2. It must be knowne, that approbation is properly in the heart; and only the manifestation of approbation in outvvard gesture, speech or writing. Both the one and other are euill if the thing be euill. But heare it must be considered, that I may in cases, do the same outvvard act, vvhich others do, and vvherein they mani­fest their approbation of idolatrie or other euill: and yet I be free, in trueth and deed, from all such ap­probation, and stain thereof. The levves after Christs death, and the taking avvay, 2. Col. 15. and abolishing of the legall ordinances thereby, circumci­sed their infants, and frequentled the temple for purification, and other mosaicall ceremonies as parts of Gods vvorshippe, and still remai­ning of deuine institution. Paul also circumcised Timothy, entred the Tem­ple for purification, and yet did not approue, any manner of vvay of the [Page 33] errour and euill in the Ievvish wor­shippers. To come nearer home. It is the custome in Popish coun­tries, that all that passe by a crosse must in honour of it leaue it on the right hand, as they may, by reason of the placeing of it, comming, or going. Now if I ride vvith others that vvay, I may do the thing, that they doe, and keep companie vvith them, & yet not honour the crosse as they do. It is besides the former, the manner, that such, as so passe a crosse, should in further honour put of their hatt to the said crosse. But if I do this also I plainly mani­fest an approbation of the supersti­tion. The reason of the difference is, because I haue another iust cause to do the former-thing, namely to keep on vvith my company: but haue no just cause of the latter. But now suppose, that at the very place, vvhere the crosse stands, I meet vvith some friend, or other, to [Page 34] vvhom I ovve that eiuill respect of vncouering my head; I may then do that lavvfully also vpon the for­mer ground. So if I had just and reasonnable cause either of com­ming, or standing by the Magistrate (to vvhom I ovve this ciuill ho­nour) vvhilst he is performing some act of Idolatrie in the streetes, or els vvhere; I might vpon the same ground, go or stand vncouered by him, vvithout just blame. To applie these things to the objectiō moued, seing no other cause could reason­nable be conceaued of the Kings commaunding such a thing, or of their doing the thing, at his com­maundement, saue the vvorship­ping of the Idoll; they in so doing could not haue escaped the just blame of Idolatrie: But now I haue just causes more then one of my hearing, and amongst the rest, mine edification; and therefore cannot be chalenged therein to approue of [Page 35] the ministers, flate, or standing. Besides that, as I formerly answe­red, heare is no Idolatrous act per­formed.

4. OBIECTION.

He that hears them preach, hears them as Ministers of the church of England, and as sent by the bishops, and so in hearing them, hears and re­ceaue them that send them according to that of our Sauiour, Luk. 9. 16. he that hears you, hears me, Iohn 13. 10. and he that despiseth you, despiseth me, and he that de­spiseth me; despiseth him that sent mee.

ANSWERE.

I graunt the former part of the objection: and account the denying of it a point of familisme: seing the officers of publique states in the executing of their offices are to be esteemed, according to the publique lavves, and orders of those states, and [Page 36] not according to any vnder hand either course, or intention, by them selues or others. They are heard, as they preach, and preach as ministers of the Bishops sending, and of the parris hes receauing to vvhich they are sent by them. And so I professe I heare them as the ministers of the Bb: sending, and of the Parishes sent to: but not as my ministers ei­ther sending, or sent to, except I be of those parishes, or at least in eccle­siasticall vnion vvith them. Euery one, vvhether of false a church, or no church, or excommunicated frō the church, that hears me, hears me as the Pastor of the church, vvhich I serue, but not as his Pastour, I suppose, nor in vvay of any his spi­rituall communion vvith mine office of Pastourshippe. Secondly, by hearing & receauing there Christ meanes properly the hearking, too, beleuing, and obeying the doctrine taught by the Apostles: vvhich [Page 37] many despised, vnto vvhom he ap­poseth the former that heard it. Now the ministers in the parishes haue not the doctrines of the Gospell from the Bishops, as they haue their office: but from God in his vvord, and so farre forth as a man hears, that is, hearkens too, and receaues them by receauing it, he so farre hearkes too & receaues Christ.

5. OBIECTION.

Yet such as heare them haue com­munion which their office of ministery vvhat in them lyes.

ANSWERE.

That is, they haue no commu­nion at all vvith it, if it lie not in them to haue any: as it doth not. If I hold vp my hand as high as I can, I touch heauen vvith my fin­ger, vvhat in me lies. Do I there­fore at all touch it? If such think to haue, or that they haue, any such [Page 38] communion, it is their errour, and ignorance, but makes not the thing to be the more, then if they thought not so.

6. OBIECTION.

Is there then no communion at all betweene the teacher, and taught? vvhat profit the comes thereby such hearing.

ANSWERE.

The church officer feeds the flock and church ouer vvhich he is set, Act. 20. 28 as the object of his ministery. Such as come in (being not in church-vnion therevvith) heare him so doing: And as a stander-by hearing me talke to, or dispute vvith another (though I speak not a vvord to him) may reap as much, and more fruit by my speche, then he to vvhom I directed it; so may and doth it often come to passe vvith him, that hears the minister feed the flock vvhose [Page 39] minister he is, though he be no part of it. He may reap fruit by hearing him feed his flock, or seing him minister baptisme to any member thereof. Heare is communion only in the effects of the truthes taught. It vvere vsurpation in any to per­take in a church priueledge (vvhich the office of ministerie is) that were not in a church-state, first. And so, if hearing simply imported church­communion, none but church­members might lavvfully heare.

7. OBIECTION.

In the true church indeed is order, that the church couenant go before church communion: but not so in the false.

ANSWERE.

In the true church there may be vnlawfull church-communiō with­out a preceeding church-couenant, as vvell, as in the other: to vvit, if an [Page 40] act of communion (properly) passe betvveen the church, and him that is no church-member: as for exam­ple, participation in the sacraments. But hearing being not properly an act of communion, cannot import communion necessarily vvith the one, or other: nor othervvise then according to a foregoing church-vnion: vvhereas to partake in the Lords supper imports communion in both: lavvfull in him, that is, a lavvfull church-member: and vn­lavvfull in him, that is not, in such a church-state.

8. OBIECTION.

But it is the order of the church of England: that all that heare, are, and so are reputed members of that church.

ANSWERE.

I deny that there is any such order. Let the lavv or cannon either, be [Page 41] shevved that so orders things. Excommunicates are permitted to heare sermons, though not deuine seruice, as they call it. 2. What if there vvere such an order? It no more either made or declared mee to be a member there, then doth my dvv [...]lling in such or such a parishe make me a member of that parish-church: vvhich latter is in­deed the lavv, and order there. If the church vvith me should make a lavv, cannon, or order that all that come in & heare me preach, should thereby become members of it; vve vvere the more foolish in making such an order: but they neuer a vvhit the nearer either for membershippe or communion.

9. OBIECTION.

He that hears, appears to haue com­munion with the church, & ministry, and all appearance of euill is to be avoided, 1. Thess, 5. 22.

ANSWERE.

The scripture is not to be vnder­stood of all that appears euill to others, out of an erronius, and de­ceaued judgement: for then vve must abstain from almost all good: seing there are some to vvhom al­most all good seemes euill: but it is meant either of the doctrine in Prophesie, of vvhich I haue some probable suspition; of vvhich the Apostle seemes properly to speak: or of that vvhich appears euill to a rightly discerning eye. By this ima­gined exposition I might not hyre a house in a parishe, vvhere I vvere not knovvne: seeing thereby I ap­peare a parish-member.

10. OBIECTION.

None can heare without a preacher, nor preach except he be sent, Rom. 10 14. 15. Therefore I cannot lawfully heare him that hath not a lawfull sending.

ANSWERE.

1. That conclusion is neither in text, nor sound: I may lavvfully hear him that hath no lavvfull cal­ling, as I haue formerly shevved. 2. The Apostles meaning there, is not to shevv vvhat is vnlavvfull, but vvhat is impossible. It is impos­sible to beleeue vvithout hearing, and impossible to heare vvithout preaching, and impossible to preach vvithout the sending there inten­ded: that is, vvithout Gods gracious vvork of Prouidence in raising vp of men, by enabling, and dispo­seing them to preach for the effec­tuall calling of the elect of God; of vvhich he there speaks. If any make question vvhether faith come by the hearing of the preachers there: it is more questionable, whe­ther they themselues, vvant not faith, vvhich are so barren of cha­ritie, in vvhich true faith is fruitfull. If faith come by the preaching in [Page 44] England to any, it follovves there­vpon, that such preachers are sent, in the Apostles sence.

11. OBIECTION.

The sheep of Christ heare his voice, but strangers they will not heare, Ioh. 10. 3. 8. 27.

ANSWERE.

Christ doth not there speak of the outvvard hearing, but of the hearking vnto, that is, as he ex­pounds himselfe vers, 3. 4. 5. 14. 16. 16. 27. of the knowing, and be­leeuing of his voice: & following it. So chap. 9. I told you before, and ye did not hear, that is, not beleeue, vers. 27. And God hears not sinners, vers. 31. that is, approues not of them, and their prayers. So chap. 11. I know that thou bearest me alvvaies. and a thousand times in the scrip­tures. The drift of Christ in the place is (without question) to shew [Page 45] the difference betvveene such as vvere his sheep, and such as vvere not his sheep. His sheep heard his voice: and they vvhich vvere not his sheep heard not his voice. But they vvhich vvere not his sheep, nor heard his voice, as there he speaks, heard him preach outvvard­ly, as vvell, as the rest, vvhich vvere his sheep. Besides, they vvhich vvere his sheep, and vvould not heare strangers, in the Lords sence, heard outvvardly those strangers preach, and by hearing them disco­uered them to be strangers, that is, false prophets. The strangers of vvhom he speaks vvere of the true church, and of Israel: but brought false doctrine tending to kill the soule. Such strangers none should heare, that is, beleeue and follovv.

12. OBIECTION.

The scriptures both of the old and new testament vvarn Gods people of [Page 46] false Prophets; vvhich the ministers of that church are, haueing an vnlaw­full calling.

ANSWERE.

1. They vvarn, Deut. 13. 3 not to hearken vnto them, 1. Ioh. 4. 1 nor to beleeue them, but to try them which without hearing them, cannot be done. Not that all false Prophets are to be heard by all, that they might try them; for that vvere to tempt God: but I novv ansvvere the scriptures cited; vvhich speake of Prophets in the true church: vvhich vvere to be heard, till they vvere orderly repressed, or at least, plainly discouered by their doctrine heard, to be such. 2. No mans vnlawfull outvvard calling makes him a false Prophet; nor his outvvard lavvfull calling a true: but his true or false doctrine only makes him a true, or false Prophet. A man may haue a lavvfull office of mini­sterie, and yet be a false prophet, if [Page 47] he teach false doctrine: so may he be a true prophet, if he teach the trueth, though in an vnlavvfull and Antichristian state of ministerie. Numb. 2 [...] and 25. Yea Balaam vvas both a false prophet in cursing (in purpose) vvhere God would haue him blesse, Ios. 13. 22▪ & in teaching 2. Pet. 2. 15. 16. Balack to put a stumbling block before the people of Israel: Rev. 2. 14. and yet a true prophet in blessing Israell by the spirit of prophecie, Num. 25. 5. 9 10. &c. and chap. 24. 2. 3. &c. and vvord of the Lord put into his mouth. He is a prophet that speaks or declares a thing past, present, or to come. And to prophecie in our sence, is nothing els but to speak to edification, exhor­tation, 1. Cor. 14. 3. and comfort. He that doth this is a true Prophet: He that speaks the countrary, a false. It vvere good, if they, in vvhose mouthes the chalenge of false prophets is rifest, would better wey how themselues expound, and applie the scriptures in their propheciengs, lest not­vvithstanding any outward lawfull [Page 48] church state, they be deeper vvoun­ded by the rebound of their accusa­tions this vvay, then their aduer­saries.

13. OBIECTION.

The Lords forbids Iudah going to Gilgal, or to Bethel, Hos. 4. 15. 16.

ANSWERE.

The meaning is plain, and the vvords expresse, that they vvere not to go thether to offend, and play the harlot, in ioyning to Idols, vers. 15. 16. 17. This I graunt is to be done in no place: but deny any such thing to be done in the hearing by me pleaded for. The scriptures euery vvhere forbid the going, or com­ming to such places, or persons, as in, or by vvhich some euill is done; to vvit, for the doing of any thing, euill, or vnlawfull in, or vvith them.

14. OBIECTION.

They that eat of the sacrifice par­take of the Alter, 1. Cor. 10. 18. so they that receaue the word from an vnlawfull Officer, partake with his office.

ANSWERE.

I deny the consequence. The office is not to the vvord, as the Alter is to the sacrifice. The Alter makes the thing to be offred, actu­ally to become a sacrifice, vvhich it vvas not before, saue only in desti­nation: as Christ plainly teacheth, saying, Math. 23. 19. The Alter sanctifieth the gift, but so doth not the office make that to become the vvord of God, vvhich vvas not so actually before. This argument hath its speciall waight being applied to sacraments, or proper institutions. The church, and ministerie vnder God, make (in a good sence) the bread and vvine sacramentall, in their vse, vvhich [Page 50] before they vvere not. And to the sacraments (speciallie the supper of the Lord) The Apostle in the place cited hath an eye: shevving the proportion betvveene the eating of the sacrifices in Israell, which in that vse became their sacraments: & the eating of the sacrifices of the Hea­thens, which were their sacraments; and the eating of the Lords supper, as the sacrament of christians. With these things joyn in the last place, that sacrificies considered as proper institutions, might not be offred or eaten, Deut. 12. 5. 6. 7. but in the place chosen, and sanctified by the Lord, for that pur­pose. No more may sacraments now be eaten; but in the church: vvheras the vvord may be preached to any as vvell out of the church as in it.

15. OBIECTION.

The places called Temples & churchs hauing been built for Idolatry should de demolished, and therfore are not to [Page 51] be frequented, specially being accoun­ted and made holy places, Deut. 12. 3.

ANSWERE. Iohn 4. 21 23. 24.

1. The difference of places vnder the lavv, 1. Tim. 2. 6 vvhen all other places (for the most solemne vvorshippe) as opposed to that one place as holy, vvere vnholy, is now taken away: so as no place novv is holy, or vnholy as then. 2. Suppose it be the Magi­strates dutie to destroy them (of which I now dispute not, nor how­farre he should proceed therein) yet I deny the consequence, and that I may not vse that lavvfully vvhich he ought to destroy.

The Magistrate ought to haue destroyed such cities in Israell, Deut. 13. 12. 13. 14. 14. as vvhose inhabitants had been cor­rupted vvith Idolatry. Yet might the cities (if spared by the Magistrats) lavvfully be dvvelt in aftervvards; & Synagogues in them both be built and frequented for Gods morall worshippe Iericho should haue been Iosh. 6. 17. 36. [Page 52] an execration and heap for euer: 2. King. 2. 3. 5. yet being built again and standing, vvas the seat of a school of the Prophets. The murtherer ought to be put to death: yet if he be spared, and sur­viue: his wife, children and seruants, lavvfully may, and in conscience ought to conuerse vvith him accor­ding to the naturall, and ciuill rela­tions, betvveene them and him. 3. I knovv no lavv in force, nor doctrine receaued in the church of England, that ascribes any holines to the places. And for errours, and abuses personall they rest in the per­sons so erring. I suppose some such holines be ascribed vnto them, as to holy churches, holy buildings, con­secrated places, &c. Yet I see no suf­ficient reason, vvhy I may not vse lavvfully a naturall, and ciuill place in them, for any lawfull vvork, ciuil, or religious: priuate, or publique: for there is one reason of all these. If any think those places like the [Page 53] Idolathites, he mistaketh therein: The things offred to Idols, & eaten in the Idols temple, and feast, vvere in proportion, 1. Cor. 10. as the bread & vvine (being blessed) in the Lords supper: as both the Apostle, and reason of the thing manifests. Whereas the place vvhich I vse (though for a re­ligious action to be performed in it) vvhether in the temple, or in mine ovvne house, hath onely the consi­deration of a naturall and ciuill cir­cumstance. The temple as a temple (vvhich yet I do not think is done in England by any either receaued doctrine, or lavv) may be made an Idoll, by consecration: and yet euery perticuler place in it not made vn­lavvfull for all vses.

If any further object, that in pre­aching, & hearing Gods Word ther­in, vve haue a religious vse of it, they erre, not considering, that though the vvork done be religious, yet the place is no more religious therefore, [Page 54] then the time in which I do it. Time and place are naturall circumstan­ces, and vvithout vvhich no finite action can be performed: and some time, and place more comodious & fitt, then others for the doing of things of all kindes. I haue no more religious vse of the place in vvhich I hear publiquely, thē in which I pray priuately in my house or chamber.

16. OBIECTION.

Seing vvhatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne, vvhat vvord of God, and so of faith is therefor this practice?

ANSWERE.

Euery scripture that either com­mands Mat. 7. 24. the hearing of Gods vvord, Luk. 11. 28. & promiseth a blessing to them that 1. Pet. 2. 5. hear and keep it: Tit. 3. 1. or that commands me to edifie and built to my selfe: Heb. 12. 14. or to obey the Magistrate; or to followe after peace; or to preuent offences, 1. Cor. 10. 32. vvarrants, and in cases, enjoyns this [Page 55] practice: supposing no sinne to be in the vvay; of vvhich in ansvvering the former objections (to vvhich I suppose all other of vvait or couller may be referred) I hope I haue clea­red it.

And for any vnsatisfied, or other vvise minded, I vvishe I knew their reasons either for their good by a sufficient answere to be giuen vnto them; or for mine owne, by admit­ting of them, as there may appeare vvait in them. In the meane vvhile, let me intreat of the differentlie minded, one vvay, or other, that they vvould exercise mutually that true christian charitie one tovvard another, and compassion one of anothers infirmities, which becoms all, that vvill be in trueth, and deed, follovvers of Christ Iesus: & vvhich is most needfull (speciallie in things of this kinde, for the preseruing of the vnitie of the spirit in the bond of peace. Which bond of peace [Page 56] whilest men are not carefull to keep inviolated, by brotherly for bearan­ce, in matters of this nature, they miserablie dissipate, and scatter themselues, and one another; euen as the eares in a sheffe are scattered, vvhen the bond breaketh.

But as few or no good things of any kinde are so vvell vsed by some, but others as much abuse them: so is it to be feared, that there vvill not vvant, vvho vvill change their law­full libertie this vvay into lavvlesse licentiousnes, and so take vp in steed of all other religious exercises: a hearing course onely.

And those specially of them, who disliking the present churchstate in England, yet vvant due zeale, and loue to that vvhich themselues ap­proue. Let me a litle turn my speach to such, for the preuenting in some, and remedying in others of that in­ordinate and broken course.

And first I demaund of such, what [Page 57] is this course of hearing such mini­sters, as vvhose stare of ministerie they approue not? Is it any perti­culer ordinance left by Christ, and enjoyned all christians in all ages and places? Verily no. It vvere to be vvished that no church-mini­sterie vvere to be found, vvhich is not approueable by the Word of God, notwithstanding any good act performed by them that posses it. This hearing is onely a vvork of naturall liberty in it selfe, as I haue shewed, and sanctified to beleeuers by their faith. It is lawfull to vse it vpon occasion, as it is to borrow of other men: but to make it our cour­se, is to liue by borrovving, vvhich no honest man, that can do other­vvise possibly, vvould do. Yea what differs it from a kinde of spirituall vagabondry in him that can mend it, though vvith som difficulty, to liue in no certain church-state, and vnder no church-order, and gouern­ment.

[Page 58] To print deep in our hearts the conscience of our duties this vvay; let vs briefly consider how many bonds of necessity the Lord hath layd vpon vs, to vvalk in the fol­lowshippe, & vnder the ordinances of the ministeriall and instituted-church.

First, vve haue lying vpon vs the necessite of obedience to Christ our Lord in the commission Apostoli­call enjoyning, that after vve be made disciples, as the vvord is, Mat. 28. 19. 20. and baptised vve be vvithall taught to ob­serue vvhatsoeuer he hath commaun­ded, It must not then suffice vs, that vve are disciples, and christians, but we must joyn hearewith the entire obseruation of al the ordinances of Christ (as vve can finde meanes) from the greatest to the least. And let vs beware that like the Scribes & Pharisees, Mat. 5. 19. 20. vve call none of Gods commaundements litle, because vve vvould make our selues, and others [Page 59] beleeue, that litle, and light account is to be made of obseruing them: lest vve our selues bee called litle, that is, be indeed none in the king­dome of heauen. Our sinnes of igno­rance and humane frayly, alas, are to many, let vs not adde therevnto presumptuous sinnes either of com­mission, or omission, to prouoke God vvithall.

2. The church, and ministrati­ons therein are not needlesse, but most needfull meanes sanctified of God, and giuen of Christ for our saluation and edification therevnto: Act 2. 47. vvhich he that despiseth, that is, Eph. 4. 11 doth not submit his soule and body vnto (as he hath meanes) and con­uerse therein vvith good conscience though in affliction & persecution, despiseth not man, but God and Christ to the depriuing of himselfe of the fruit of Gods most gracious presence in his house and temple, 1. Tim. 3. 15. vvhere he hath promised to dwell [Page 60] and of Christs ascention into heauen for the powring out of all kingly gifts and largesses vpon men for the vvork of the ministery. 2. Cor. 6. 16.

3. Our great infirmities vvhere­of both the scriptures euery vvhere, and our owne experience vvarn vs, shew in vvhat great need vve stand of all the Lords holy ordinances, and institutions for the supplying of vvhat is vvanting in vs; and cor­recting of vvhat is a misse; and con­tinuing, and encreasing of vvhat is good, vnto the cōming of the Lord: vvhere vve must also take know­ledge, and remember, that it is on note of difference, and the same very cleare, betvveene the vvise­dome of the fleshe, and the vvise­dome of the spirit, that the former vvilbe sure to prouide for the body, and outvvard man, vvhat may bee: though vvith danger, and prejudize of the spirituall: the other vvill take care and order, for the spirituall state [Page 61] though the outvvard pinch for it. And if any out of the view, and persuation of his ovvne strength of grace come to conceaue, that he stands in no such need of Christs ordinances, or of any christian fol­lovvshippe for the dispensing of them: let such a man consider, that the lesse need he hath of others by reason of his greater plenty of grace receaued, the more need others haue of him for their supply. But vvhat­soeuer any imagine of himselfe, the Apostle, vvho vvas not partiall, tea­cheth, that the very head (the chiefe and highest member) can not say to the feet (the lovvest and meanest members) I haue no need of you. 1. Cor. 12. 21.

4. And lastly, it is necessarie for our sound, and entire comfort vvith the Lord our God, that our obedi­ence be entire in respect of all his holy commandements, vvhich vve do, or can discern to be such, and to concerne vs, according to that of the [Page 62] man of God, Psa. 119 6 Then shal I not be asha­med, vvhen I haue respect to all thy commaundements. That so vve may haue our part in the testimonie gi­uen by the holy Ghost of Zachary and Elizabeth: Luk. 1. 5. 6. vvhich vvas, that they vvere righteous before God, walking in all the commaundements, & ordi­nances of the Lord, blamelesse. That is, both in the morall precepts, and sacred ceremonies, and institutions of the Lord, Whose examples vve in our place, and times are to fol­lowe, not balking vvith the Lord in any thing, great, or small: nor seeking starting holes vvhereby to escape from him, in his word, which is vvholy good and pure. Good, as comming from our good God, Pro. 30. 5. Heb. 6. 5. good in it selfe: and good for vs, if vve conuerse therein as vve ought; in good conscience tovvards God, zeale for his ordinances, modestie in our selues, and charitie tovvards other men: specially towards them, [Page 63] vvith vvhom God hath joyned vs in the most and best things: taking heed lest, by any vncharitable either judgment of, or vvithdrawing from their persons, for such humane fraylties, as vnto vvhich, into one kinde, or other, all Adams sinfull, prosterity are subject; vve sinne not more by our course held against them, then they by theirs in them, vvhich God forbid.

To conclude. For my selfe, thus I be­leeue with my heart before God, and pro­fesse with my tongue, and haue before the world, that I haue one and the same faith, hope, spirit, baptisin, and Lord which I had in the church of England and none other: that I esteem so many in that church, of what state, or order soeuer, as are truly par­takers of that faith (as I account many thousand to be) for my christian brethren: and my selfe a fellow-member with them of that one misticall body of Christ scat­tered far and wide throughout the world: that I haue alwaies in spirit, and affection al christian fellowshippe, and communion with them, and am most ready in all out­ward actions▪ & exercises of Religione law­full & lawfully done, to expresse the same: & withall, that I am perswaded the hearing [Page 62] [...] [Page 63] [...] [Page 64] of the word of God there preached, in the manner, and vpon the grounds formerly mentioned, both lawfull, and vpon occa­sion, necessary for me & all true christians, with drawing from that Hierarchical order of church gouernement, and ministery, and the appartenances thereof: and vniting in the order, and ordinances instituted by Christ, the onely King, and Lord of his Church, and by all his disciples to be ob­serued: and lastly, that I cannot communi­cate with, or submit vnto the said Church­order, and ordinances there established, either in state, or act, without being con­demned of mine owne heart, and therein prouoking God, who is greater then my heart, to condemne me much more. And for my failings (which may easily be too many) one way, or other, of ignorance hearin, and so for all my other sinnes, I most humbly craue pardon first, and most at the hands of God. And so of all men, whom therein I offend, or haue offended any manner of way: euen as they desire, and look that God should pardon their of­fences.

FINIS.

HEER FOLLOWETH A true Copie of a Letter, sent to London written by the Author of the former Treatise, and read in publique, and by the whole consent of the Church was sent to London, in answere to a letter sent by the Church of London to the Church of Amstelredam and Leyden. Which we haue thought good to Printe: onely to let the World see, what the Churchs opinion was of hearing in England, the contents wherof followeth.

TO OVR BELOVE IN THE Lord, the Church of Christ in London, Grace and Peace from God the giuer thereof: and in him our louing saluta­tions.

IT may seeme strange vnto you bre­thren, and that not vvithout cause that vve should haue deferred thus long our answere vnto your letter; [Page 66] and as vnseasonable that after so long delay, vve should now frame an an­swere. Our defence in the former case is, partly, the other churchs keeping the same so long in their hands, be­fore they sent it vnto vs; and partly their contentions arising about it, of vvhich vve both desired to see some issue, and hoped vvithall, that by occasion thereof, vve might come to communicate our counseills together; as vve conceiue, by your joint letter, your desire to haue been. But both in vain. For the letter then, (part­ly fearing, lest vve should seeme to neglect you: and partly hoping that some vse might be made thereof for after times, and occasions,) we thought it better late them neuer to addresse this our answere: yet so as you are in the first place to be intreated by the Pastor of the church heare, to take knowledge, that he vvas not verie vvilling to read publiquelie that your letter for two reasons, The [Page 67] one, a loathnes that either strangers or brethren, should take knowled­ge of that in ordinate, and lawlesse course held by such there, as both in regard of their yeares, and lear­ning, and especiallie of their place in the church, should haue being an example, to the rest in vvise­dome, sobrietie, and Christian for­bearance, speciallie in a case threa­ting diuision, and dissipation: fol­lowing therein Christ our great high Priest, who being touched, with the feeling of our infirmities, can haue compassion of the ignorant. Heb. 4. and 5. The true naturall mother vvould not consent to haue the liuing childe derided, but the counterfeit vvas easily mooued there­vnto, how earnest soeuer she seemed to haue it accounted hers.

Secondlie, For that he conceaues it not orderly, that the bodies of churchs should be sent to for counseil, but some choise persons. Power and vn­authoritie [Page 68] is in the body, for elections & censures, but counseil for direction in all affaires, in some few. In vvhich regard euerie perticuler church is ap­pointed its Elderships for ordinarie counseillers, to direct it and the mem­bers thereof in all difficulties vvith vvhom others are also to aduise vpon occasion, speciallie ordinarie. The Priests lips should preserue know­ledge, & they should seek the Law at his mouth: for he is the messen­ger of the Lord of hosts, Mal 2.

These things premised, our generall answere to the questions propounded by you, followeth. You demaind, 1. Whether you haue done well in re [...]eining her (to vvit, the maid, about vvhom the difference vvas) she leauing practise according to her promise?

Answere. We iudge that therein you did vvell yea though she had con­tinued her practise, vpon occasion, and without neglect of the church, wherof [Page 69] she vvas a member, how much more leauing it, as she did. Considering the action it selfe, the hearing of the word of God, the great prouocations she had therevnto; the state of the other church, about vvhich your next que­stion is moued, and vvith all these, that excommunication is the heauiest censure vvhich the church can in­flict for the most heynous offence most obstinatly stood in, we deem it against that brotherlie forbearance, vvhich the stronger owes to the vveaker, so seuerelie to censure, a failing (so sup­posed) of that kinde.

To their assertion that she vvas an Idolator hauing broken the 2. Com­mandement for that Mr. Iakobs peo­ple vvere iudged Idolators in their going to the assemblies; and therefore from. 1. Cor. 5. If any called a brother be an Idolator, &c. We answere, that heare are diuers consequences & collections, made, vvithout rule of charitie, or ground of trueth.

[Page 70] To graunt (as the trueth is) that manie things in the assemblies are against the second Commaundements: vvhich forbids nothing, but Idolatry expresly; and by consequence vvhat­soeuer tends therevnto: and vvith­all that Mr. Iakobs people did par­take vvith diuerse of these euills: yet wee deny it to agree, either vvith christianitie, or ciuillitie, in com­mon course of speech, to calenge euerie such practise, as the committing of of Idolatrie, or such person, as Ido­lators. The Lord Iesus teacheth, Math. 5. 21. 22. that all vnaduised anger is against the sixth commaun­dement, Thou shalt do no murder. Is therefore euerie man that mani­fests vpon occasion, any the least vn­aduised anger to be chalenged as a committer of murther, or murtherer [...] so by proportion, euerie lesse modest word, gesture, or fashion of apparrell, is against the seuenth commandemsnt, Thou shalt not commit adulterie: [Page 71] Euerie vvronging of another by ne­gligence, vnprouidence, or partiall affections (vvhich euerie one lesse, or more beares to him selfe) though but in a half penny, against the eight commaundement, Thou shalt not steale, are all therefore so doing to be pronouncied and prosecuted, as theefes and adulterers (reversed ?) By these vain collections, and bold chalenges, searse any so good and godly, but might be branded, as Idolators, [...]heefes, murderers, adulterers, and vvhat not. For whoe can vnderstand his errours, and secret faults (reversed ?) vvords are vnto things as cloathes vnto the body. And as it were a vain course to put vpon a childe a mans coat, though neuer so costly, to make him seeme a man, so is not onely vain, but also injurious to put vpon the things vvhich vve dislike, odious phrases; though taken out of the verie seri­ptures, to make them seeme vvorse then in trueth then are.

[Page 72] Indeed he that is vnder the Law, & iudgement therof, doing the least euill against the 1. or 2. commandement is an Idolator, and against the 6. 4 mur­therer, and so for the rest, in regard of God, and the rigour of justice: whom yet for men so to call and prosecute, vvere rashe and rude at the least: But now if the person can in respect of other good things, by the vvord of God & vtmost extent of charity be deemed to haue any the least interest in the grace of the gospell, to censure such a one as an idolator, theefe, murderer, and the like, is against both charitie and godlines: The Apostle, 2. Cor. 6. teacheth vs to iudge, and speak other­wise, vvhere he calls such of the Chri­stian Corinthians, as by occasion of friends & corruptions of times were drawne to partake in the Idoll feasts, and tables of deuils (of vvhich they had also before been by him most se­riouslie admonished, 1. Cor. 8. & 10.) Righteousnes, light, Christ, be­leeuers, [Page 73] and the Temple of God; opposed to vnbeleeuers, vnrighte­ousnes, &c. As it is one thing to haue sinne, which if we say we haue not, we deceaue our selues, & the trueth is not in vs; and another thing, to be sinners in the Scriptures phrase, 1. Iohn 1. Psal. 1. 5. Iohn 9. 3. 29. so all that practise through ignorance, or in­firmitie, some acts (lesse discernable) of Idolatrie, are not Idolators: but such in vvhom it raigneth in action or disposition.

Lastlie, If all in the church of England, and of Mr. Iakobs, church be idolators as the Apostle there speaks: then are they all excluded from the kingdome of God, 1. Cor. 6. 9. 10. and are vnder the curse and condemna­tion of the law, vvhich censure the most rigid this vvay haue disclaimed, as rash and vnjust.

Secondlie, Whether Mr. Iakobs congregation, be a true church or no? We haue so judged, and the Elders [Page 74] of the church at Amstelredam, and the body of the church with them, as we conceaue: and so do vve judge still, hauing sent you vvith our letter a copie of certain papers in which that matter is handled.

Thirdly, Whether Mr. Stares­more and his wife are receaued, and retained in our churches by that couenant, which they made with God in Mr. Iakobs church, or whe­ther they haue renounced it as false, and made an other (reversed ?)

Answere. Their receauing, heare, was only by that couenant made with God, and the church there continued, and none otherwise, the persons ha­uing testimonie, and dismission from the church there, and so were in the vertue of the same couenaut, by vs commended, and conueyed to that other church in Amstelredam.

Fourthly, To your fourth demaund about your carriage towards your Teacher, & other brethren renoun­cing [Page 75] communion with you, it is both vnseasonable now to answere, and difficult for vs, who are ignorant of such circumstances▪ and maners of cariage by them, as by which offences are much agreeuated, or extennated

Fifthly, Whether their pretence of hauing the trueth be sufficient to make them the church, and to warrant their aboue mentioned dealing (reversed ?)

Answere, Neither the pretence of hauing, nor the hauing of the truth indeed, makes the church in the sence in hand: no more then the hauing some other perticuler com­mendable vertue, by some makes them the church excluding them that want its. As Reuelat. 2. and 3. The visible, and ministeriall church is the whole body, & euery member thereof. Not some parts, Act. 20. 1. Cor. 14. 23. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. of which some of these members haue more come­lines, and some lesse. The church is a [Page 76] state spirituall and politicall: not per­sonall error therefore or other sinne makes any cease to be a member ther­of. And if the greater number be members still, though inerrour: the smaller cannot be the body. Besides, if some particuler sinne, or errour make the greatest part, not to be mem­bers, then much more two or three perticulers. Which therevpon the church might not censure for any errour or other sinne, to vvit, if they vvere not members: Lastly, this con­firms that popish and presumptuous ground, that the church cannot erre.

Sixtly, Whether women haue voyces vvith men in the judgments of the churchs?

Answere. The Apostle teacheth plainlie, the contrarie, 1. Cor. 14. 34. 1. Tim. 2. 14. and though he speak perticularlie of prophe [...]ing and tea­ching, yet layes he downe a more ge­nerall rule, forbidding all such spea­king, as in vvhich authoritie is vsed, [Page 77] that is vsurped ouer the man, which is done speciallie in iudgements. And if a woman may not so much as moue a question in the church for her in­struction, hov much lesse may she giue a voyce, or vtter a reproofe for censure?

And this answere vve return at the length, brethren, to your letter and demands, & therewith our louing salutations in the Lord. In vvhom vvishing your peace and vvellfare, we rest.

Your louing brethren Iohn Robinsz. and church with him.
Leyden 5. April, 1624.
FINIS.

This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal. The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission.