BECAVSE the ensuing dis­cours is dialogue wyse, & that some note of distinc­tion must of necessitie be vsed; seeing I know not these gentlemennes names: I haue th [...]gh [...] good to note them by their scarfs, as by calling him that was to go to serue the King of Spayn by the name of Red-scarf, according to the colour of the scarf hee wore, & to call the other by the name of Tawney-scarf, because he wore a scarf of the colour of Orange-tawney.

The compagnie, after the conditions of quietnes at parting were agreed vpō, became all silent, to heare them begin, The first then (beeing Tawney-scarf) began in this manner.

IT seemeth strange vnto mee, that anie of our Countrimen should rather re­solue [Page 8] to serue the King of Spayn, then thee States of Holland, considering how long their cause & quarrel had bin by En­glishmen supported, and the number of our Countrimen that continew to serue on that syde.

It semeth as strange vnto mee that men of sence and vnderstanding, should not rather regard the iustnes of the cause & quarrel which they are to def [...]d (especially when they are not con­strayned, but that their resolution lyeth in their owne choyse) then to let themselues bee blyndfolded & led forward by sinister suggestion, to follow the vn vnderstanding vulgar multitude for companie or custome sake, because they haue continued so long a tyme to serue on that syde, without knowing or ca­ring wherein right or wrong cōsisteth.

You must not think that the first re­solution taken for the assistance of the [Page 9] Hollanders was without good conside­ration of the iustnes of their cause, and the same beeing once begun and conti­nued, what needed further doubt or scruple bee made thereof by the after-followers of it?

Because it is no article of faith, to be­lieue that the first resolution taken in En­gland for the assisting of the Hollanders; was not without good consideration of the iustnes of their cause, diuers haue since penetrated further in to it, to see whether it so were or not, but could not so fynd it, & therefore those you speak of, that haue followed it without scru­ple, haue bin people that were not scru­pulus at all, for there is no cause bee it neuer so bad, but some will bee found without anie scruple willing to follow it.

I know their are some that are redie enough to embrace the folowing of bad courses, but what cōcernes that this?

If the cause of the Hollanders by anie vndisprooueable reasons of yours shall appeer vnto mee to bee iust, I shal not onlie bee sorrie for myn error in not apprehending it so to bee, but resolue to go along with your self vnto their ser­uice.

I am glad to heare you speak so, & therefore I wil endeuour to giue you sa­tisfactiō in hope of the having of your good compagnie.

Three causes I conceaue to haue bin the motyues why Queen Elizabeth did first vndergo her assisting the Hollan­ders.

The first was, their beeing opressed and wronged by the King of Spayn, and in danger to bee broght vnder the seue­ritie, of the Spanish inquisition.

The second was in regard they were our so neer aioyning freindes & neygh­bours.

[Page 11] And the third and that not the least, was for the maintenāce of the Ghospel.

You haue heer alleadged sundrie rea­sons to haue caused Queen Elizabeth to take the Hollanders partes, it is reason then that If so bee I cannot allow them for sufficient reasons, I prooue them not so to bee, which by your patience & permission, I think I shalbe able to do.

The first point is about their beeing oppressed and wronged by the King of Spayn, and in danger to bee broght vnder the seueritie of a Spanish inquisition.

That these people lyued in obedience of King Phillip the second of Spayn▪ as did all the other inhabitants of the seuenteen Netherland Prouinces, acknowledging him as their true & lawfull Soueraigne Lord, as they had acknowledged his an­ceters before him from whome hee successyuely inherited those countries, no man can make anie doubt or questiō, The question then is whether this King [Page 12] when he came to the possessiō of these countries, did impose vpon the people anie pressures more then his former an­cesters had donne, but who is able to shew that he did? The sayd King beeing then in as full and quiet possession of all those countries as euer anie of his an­cesters had bin, & departing from thence towards Spayn in the yeare 1559. hee left none of his Netherland subiects for anie cause of innouation, in anie thing, anie whit disgusted, but in as great tran­quilitie as euer they had bin, Hee left behind him in those countries no Spa­nish Gouernours nor Soldiers, but gaue the particular gouernments to the no­bilitie of the countrie it self, and the ge­nerall Gouernment of them all, vnto his naturall sister the Duchesse of Parma, bee­ing of the same countrie borne, what wrong in anie respect was heer donne them? who complayned of anie wrong? why was not the good peace and reciprocall loue between this King [Page 13] and his Netherland subiects continued? who began the breach? what actions of innouation caused it? proceeded it from this Prince or from the Netherland people?

When no thoght nor cogitation was in this Kinges mynd of anie breach be­tween him and his subiects, in the yeare of our Lord 1566. certayn of the ras­calitie beeing suggested by seditious preachers, & those preachers set on by some of nobillitie litle better then bank­rupt, they begā in moste rebellious rage to fall to the robbing and spoyling of Churches, The Duchesse of Parma beeing at Bruxelles when the newes of his ou­tragious and generall sacrilegious theft, was broght vnto her, was much amased there at, and demaunded of the Earle of Barlamont, (who then was present) what they were that had donne this, where vnto he answered her in French, Ce ne sont que de Geus, which is asmuch to say in English They are but rogues, or rascalles. [Page 14] The Churche robbers and those that set them on woork, whereof some were gentlemen (thogh much vnwoorthie of that title) having gotten knowlege how the name of Geus was giuen them, did foorth-with accept of the name, and wore in stede of brooches on their hat­tes litle wodden dishes, to betoken beg­gers dishes, & some of that sorte did af­terward weare fox-tayles in their hattes in steed of fethers, so as it seemeth they took a glorie in this woorthie name, for they also caused a print or stāp of a cock to bee made, at whose mouth the wordes, Viue les Geus par tout le monde, were set down, which is asmuch to say, as Liue or florish may the rogues ouer all the world, & the paper printes or pictures takē from this stamp, were set vp in all how­ses, taphowses and tauernes, where they frequented, heer hence it cometh that in all the low countries this kynd of people do vnto this day beare the name of Geuses, howbeit they haue since [Page 15] bin taught to call themselues The Refor­med, but protestants they neither do, or euer did call themselues.

Heer haue you the originall and be­gining of the breach between the King of Spayn, & these his Netherlād subiects. And as touching their beeing oppressed and wronged by the King of Spayn, and in danger to bee brought vnder the seue­ritie of the Spanish inquisitiō. The blame that the King of Spayn heerin deser­ueth, is, that hee was so much ouer shot that when hee heard of their breaking down of Alters, & Images in Churches, of their robbing and carying thence of siluer Chalices, patrens, cruets, candle­sticks, lamps, & reliquaries, with the ta­pistrie, and whatsoeuer they might make monie of, euen to the verie belles in the steeples, he had not comended it to be wel donne, and sent them re­wardes for so dooing, & so haue let them runne on euē to the taking of the cruci­fix out of the Churche, and hanging it [Page] on the gallowes as they did at Gorcum in Holland, an acte that albeit the diuel, Iewes, and Geuses, could take pleasure in, yet would verie Turcks and Maho­metanes be scandalized to behold it.

Now because the King of Spayn had sworne at his beeing in the Netherlandes; to defend the Churche and Ecclesiasti­cal persons in their ancient & Christian priuileges, and that hee apprehended Churche-robberie to be theft, he so much wronged these people as to send the Duke of Alua to punish this theft, which as I take it, was as litle wrong as to hang a minister for stealing of a book of Martirs out of a Parish Churche in London.

You haue heer sayd somthing, but the Duke of Alua was not satisfyed with the hanging and punishing of a number of these, but hee soght to haue broght in and intruded vpon them the Tirannons inquisition of Spayn, which was a meer [Page] innouation, & such as the priuileges of the countrie could not beare.

The Duke of Alua had neuer charge from Spayn nor neuer intention of his own, to bring an inquisition into the Netherlandes, this is but a meer calumnie, which hath bin giuen out & spred abro­de hy the seditious, to foster the obsti­natie of the people, But had the inquisi­tion bin broght into the Netherlandes, it had but returned from whence in long fore going yeares it came, for you must note that the inquisition was neuer in­vented or broght vp in Spayn, or there euer intended for Protestants, seeing it was in the world manie ages before euer the world was acquainted with the name of Protestants, or with anie such kynde of people as Protestants are, for the Emperor Charles the great who liued about 800. yeares past, did first pro­mulgate and put it in practise, and the cause was, that after the Saxons in their [Page] countrie of Saxonie, (Holland, and those annexed prouinces, beeing at that tyme partes of the Nether Saxonie) had bin brought from Paganisme to Christianitie, this pious Emperor having greatly fur­thered it, hee had no soouer turned his back by reason of his beeing empeached with warres in other partes, but these Saxons turned from Christianitie back agayn to paganisme, and for such Apo­stataes and forsakers of the faith hee or­dayned an inquisition, the memorie whereof gaue example that some ages after it was renewed and put in practise in Spayn, for such moores & Iewes, as ha­ving receaued the character of Christe fel back agayn to Mathometisme, and Indaisme, and albeit this inquisition was neuer intended (as before is sayd) to haue bin renewed in the Netherlandes, yet paraduenture it might haue prooued as necessarie when signes appeered of the good disposition of some there, aswel to Mahometisme, as to Iudaisme, for diuers [Page 19] that are yet lyving haue seene written vpon the targets or rondasses which some of these Geus gallants did beare, their resolution there vnto, in these woordes, Rather Turkish, then Popish, which is in effect, rather Mahomet thē Christe, and Hollanders reporte themselues that some of their countrimen haue bin so edified in the present Synagogue of Amsterdam, that they haue relinquished their Christianitie & are become lewes, & for defect of an inquisition had not anie thing sayd vnto thē for it, nor must they where profession is made of such cōscience libertie, that euerie man may chuse what hee wil belieue, or whether hee will belieue anie thing or nothing. But this may seeme the lesse wonder, whēthere haue bin found among these geuses, a companie that marched vn­der the ensigne of the deuil, for so was the ensigne called, because there were depicted therein the Diuelles clawes, which ma [...]ie that are yet lyving haue [Page] seene displayed in the town of Liere in Brabant, at such tyme as it stood out in rebel­lion against the King, & so may you now see how rebellion against the king, & re­bellion against God, do concurre toge ther, for where as ancient good Chri­stians having bin taught by the example of the moste glorious Christian Empe­ror Constantinus Magnus, to fight vnder the signe of the Crosse, these new contrarie Christians, abhorring that signe, haue more deuotion to the clawes of the deuill, a well deuysed and befitting en­signe for such as foght vnder it.

I wote well there is in Holland free li­bertie of conscience allowed to all, and free exercise of Religion allowed to some, but of anie their enclyning to Ma­hometisme or to Iudaisme, or of their marching vnder the deuilles clawes, haue I not heard.

Where free libertie of conscience is [Page 21] allowed, why may not euerie one be­lieue as him list? what shal restrayn him? If you doubt of the Hollanders making difficultie of turning Turckes, do but enquire what they haue don at Tunis where they haue fal [...]e to Maho­metisme by whole shipfulls at once, and afterward to mend the matter haue taught the Mahometanes of those par­tes, the laudable science of Piracie, for the more affliction of Christians, and as for Iudaisme, such as lyke there of and lyke no swynes flesh▪ or can bee content to forbeare the eating thereof may bee circumcised when they wil, and then speak as much blasphemie against Christ as the devil wil direct them to do.

Thus haue I heer shewed you, what great wrong the King of Spayn hath donne this people, and what great cause they haue to complayn of his breach of their priuileges, which is alwaycs in their mouthes, albeit they would neuer vouchsase to produce anie one old pri­uilege [Page 22] for the robbing of Churches.

I haue also shewed you where the in­quisition began, and the cause why it was first put in practise in Saxonie, & af­terward in Spayn, the name whereof is now asmuch put in practise in Holland, in continuall pamphlets & preachings, as is the name of a Bulbegger to make litle children afrayd.

These bee thinges I haue not to do withal.

But these bee thinges that belong to the purpose, heer to bee alleaged.

The Hollanders were and are, our neer neyghbours & freindes, and there­fore Queen Elizabeth saw great reason to vphold them, against her potent enemie the King of Spayn.

Before I come to discours about Queen Elizabeths reason for taking the [Page 23] Hollanders partes giue mee leaue I pray you to speak a litle of the blynd igno­rance of our vulgar multitude heer in England, to the end you may consider of the reasōs why they hate the Spagniard, & loue the Hollander, to see how well & wisely this loue & hatred is founded.

That England and Spayn haue anciently remayned in great amitie together Histories & Chronicles wil witnes, and the diuers alliances and mariages often made between those two countries, can also giue testimonie thereof. True then it is, that the great breach and hostillitie between England and Spayn began but in these our dayes, let vs now see & consi­der why & how it began, to wit, whe­ther by Spayn or by England.

King Phillip the second of Spayn as all the world knoweth, did vpon the death of Queen Marie his wyf, giue place and quiet entrance vnto Queen Elizabeth, & for further proof of his desyre of conti­nuance of peace and amitie with her hee [Page 24] freely gaue vnto her all Queen Ma­ries Iewelles, they iustly belonging vnto himself, hee also kept his Ambas­sador lidger in England; as the sayd Queen kept hers also in Spayn, profeising out wardly vnto him all loue and ami­tie, and yet this not-withstanding, shee permitted secretly and vnderhand, the transporte of Artillerie and Mu­nition of warre to the Moores of Gra­nado to enable them to rebel, iust about the verie same tyme that the Ne­therland rebellion was determined to bee begun, that thereby thee King of Spayn might haue his handes full, by beeing thrust in-to two warres at once, both which shee vnderhand fur­thered, but more the warre of the Netherlandes then that of Granado, be­cause of the redier comoditie. Soon vpon the contryving of this plot, when the King of Spayn to appease the Nether­land broyles in the beginning, had sent the Duke of Alua with forces into those [Page 25] partes, and after his arryuall there, sent him a supply of 600000 crownes, some affirme it to haue bin 800000. shee ceazed vpon this monie in the west parte of England, and having gotten it into her handes, did therewith assist his Netherland Rebelles, whereby his monie ordayned to haue serued himself against his rebelles, came to serue his rebelles against him, and bred besydes this a farre greater inconvenience, for it was the cause why the Duke of Alua demaunded the tenth pennie of the countrie peoples goodes, whereby they became the more alienated and apt to rebellion.

Some yeares after this; Captayn Drake was employed from England to the west-Indies, where hee robbed the King of Spayn of about a million and a half, of his treasure, These and sundrie other wronges and detriments were donne by the sayd Queen vnto the King of Spayn at such tyme as either had their [Page] Ambassadors (the Ministers of peace) in each others countrie, they professing to each other, loue and amitie. The King of Spayn dooing against the Queen of En­gland, no acte whatsoeuer to the con­trarie, whereas she contrariwise conti­nued to do against him vnderhand as manie wronges as she could, besydes those great notorious wronges heere mentioned, But when these grew so frequent that the smart vnto the King of Spayn became intollerable, and so manifested vnto the world that all other Princes and people took notice thereof, how was it possible that it could stand with the honor of a King, and of such a potent King▪ as is a King of Spayn, stil to continew to put vp wronges as fast as shee continued to do them? hee was therefore at the last moued to the prepa­ration of his great Armada naual▪ of the yeare of our Lord 1588. the me­morie whereof by the incessant cla­mours of Puritanical enemyes of peace▪ [Page 27] hath possessed more place in the heades of the inconsiderate vulgar multitude, then the manie great wronges that en­forced it

But thankes bee vnto God, our peace­full King Iames coming to the crown, and wel knowing how matters had passed, did to the great happynes of the Realme salue vp this sore▪ from further festering, wherevnto hee found Spayn most redie and willing, and wel con­tent to let pas and forget all English in­iuries, for to giue the Spagniaerds their due, certayn it is, they are men▪ that are not of vnreconciliable & revenge­full natures, nor such long entertayners of desyre of reuenge, as some other na­tions are sayd to bee, And this appee­reth manifestly in this nation more thē in others, for notwith▪standing all fore going hostillitie between Englishmen and Spagniards, both by sea and land, and enuasions euen in Portugall and Spayn it self, whereof people may remayn [Page 28] more sensible then of an vnefectuall Armada, yet hath not anie English Am­bassador or anie other of the English nation bin by Spagniards in Spayn barbarously abused, but I am ashamed euen for the honor of our nation to repeat how Spanish Ambassadors, and other Spagniardes, haue bin vsed in England.

As for the sundrie benefits which the commerce and traficque between En­gland and Spayn hath broght vnto our countrie, and nation, I doubt not but manie of our marchants, seafaring men, and others, wil confesse, and farre more profit and benefit wil no doubt ensue the moste honorable and great alliance now expected.

But let vs come to our good neygh­bours and friendes the Hollanders, and consider of the gratefull goodnes and benefits which wee reap by them, that thereby wee may know how wel and wysely wee are aduysed to esteem [Page 29] them for our good Neyghbours and friendes, and so friendly sticking vnto them.

That wee haue for aboue these fiftie yeares taken their partes, is sufficient­ly known, that the people of England haue often tymes generally smarted by the great pressures and parlamen­tal payments imposed vpon them by Queen Elizabeth, to vphold these frien­des and neyghbours withall, is lykewise wel enough known, as also that great boundance of English blood hath bin shed in their quarrel; & an infinite num­ber of Englishmennes lyues lost, whose courage and valour, was woorthie of more honor then in their base and dishonorable seruice could bee deserued, and now when all comes to all, they are so farre from honest ci­uillitie, that they will not acknow­ledge anie friendship donne them, and therefore can they not entertayn [Page] anie thoghts of obligation, or gratitude, nay they dare playnly tel vs; that wee are beholding vnto them, which is as­much to say as that they expect grati­tude at our handes.

In deed I must confesse I haue heard them affirme that our assisting them was to free our selues from warre in our own countrie, by meanes of Spanish enuasiō, which may carrie some reasō.

But what reason was there, why wee should haue anie feare of Spanish enua­sion, then onlie for our taking their par­tes, against their true and lawfull Soue­raigne the King of Spayn.

I must remayn your debter for the giuing you a reason heerof, vntil I am able to do it.

But I must tel you further, that they do not onlie deny all gratitude where it [Page 31] is due, and vniustly claym it, where they ow it, but passing further beyond the limits of reason and humanitie; they discouer themselues to bee such mon­sters, as to beare a verie diuellish hatred both vnto our nation and to our moste gratious Soueraigne himself. Against our natiō their actious declare it, against our Soueraigne their vilanous tounges.

Of their moste vile and contemptible vsage of our nation in the East-Indies I shal not heer need to speak, the letters written by our marchants and others from thence do declare it; Their vsage of vs in Groon-land, and the vndooing of our long continued trade in Muscouie I wil also omitt, but wee fynd that they are the verie caterpillers and desroyers of our comon welth, by all the wayes and meanes they can deuise, for they haue not onlie, by meanes of their core­spondent countriemen, conueyed and drawn by stelth our gold and siluer out of the Realme, but they haue broght the [Page] whole Realme in a generall decay of traficque, to the empouerishing and vn­dooing of thow sandes of the inhabitāts, as all that deal in clothing in all partes of the Realme wil confesse.

As for their vilanous speeches against our Soueraigne, I could name vnto you that Englishman who passing not long since between Rotterdam and the Hage, and hearing some of those varlets speake il of his Maiestie, which hee beeing an Englishmā could not endure, hee as it became him, did in good man­ner reprehend them for it, but straight-wayes a couple of them drew their knyues vpon him to haue stabbed him, and so had they donne, had they not bin hild & kept back by others there pre­sent, wee haue a proverb, that it is better for some to steal a hors then some to look on. What detriments endure wee by Spagniards? where do they bynd vs hand and foot, and cast vs ouer Indian rockes lyke dogges? Where vndo they [Page 33] our trade? how empouerish they our countrie? where raile they vpon our Soueraigne? Are wee in our right wittes I wonder? when wee resolue to go to shed our blood for those that suck our blood? when wee fight for those at home, that kil vs abroad, mee thinks purging with Heleborus were fitter now a dayes to bee taken in vse of our coun­trimē, then the smoak-drinck of driue­ling Tobacco.

For Godes loue lets haue no more of this, least you driue mee in a desperate mood to turne Spanish with you, and so discredit my self with my friendes that expect mee in Holland.

Nay Sir, you should by your so dooing, giue a good ensample for those friends to follow.

I haue serued some yeares alredie in Holland, and haue past my woord and [Page 34] promis to some friends of myn there to return back vnto them agayn, to the ser­uice of the States.

I could then wish that both you and they would resolue to serue them as they oght to bee serued, such tricks I meane as might revenge some of the vi­lanies and wronges they haue offred vs.

I gesse at your meaning, but it con­curres not with my resolution, & you know theare is a precept that willeth to do good for evil.

That is wel donne where evil is thereby amended, but your dooing good where you do it, makes evil become woors. But let mee now returne to speak somthing of Queen Elizabethes rea­son to take the Hollanders partes, And first I must tel you that Queen Elizabeth did neuer take their partes vpon com­passion of their cause, in regard of anie [Page 35] wrong which shee knew the King of Spayn to do them, for shee could not but know them to be as verie notorious re­belles, as euer were anie in the world, & therefore was her assistence not giuen because shee loued them, but because shee hated the King of Spayn, and so made vse of them as the instruments of her hate.

Then must there bee cause why shee hated the King of Spayn, and hating him, shee had reason to favor and foster those that hated him as wel as her self.

I pray Sir, for the instruction of my ig­norance, tel mee the cause why shee ha­ted him.

The cause I cannot tel you, but cause I must imagine there was.

You can know no iust cause, nor anie man els, but you say you must imagine there was a cause, but this must is not [Page 36] forcecible, vnlesse it were a cleere case that neuer anie man were causelesly hated, But to tel you the true cause why in deed shee ha [...]ed him, it was no other then for dooing her good.

That mee thinkes is impossible.

Impossible onlie to good and grate­full myndes.

The King of Spayn in her sister Queen Maries tyme, did her no lesse good then the saving of her lyf, and experience hath often shewed that there are some kynd of people that can neuer abyde those that they are verie deeply behol­ding vnto, because they think the obli­gation of gratitude to bee a bondage, whereas want of gratitude when it con­sisteth in the wil and not in the power, is monstrous and not humayn.

That the king of Spayn saued her lyf can hardly bee prooueed, for albeit shee [Page 37] was imprisoned in her sisters tyme, yet shee was neuer broght to anie publyke triall, and so there was no saving of her lyf needfull, shee not beeing by law found giltie.

If it had come to that, it had gon hard with her, but the King of Spayn preuented it, and thereby not onlie saued her lyf, but also her honor.

But how is this prooued?

That there were diuers conspiracies of treason in her sisters tyme is evident, that shee was apprehended and put in prison vpon them, is evident, that shee was the onlie hope & obiect of the con­spira [...]ors is evident, and that some of them accused her is also evident, for re­ligion her troobles were not, because shee made profession of the religion of her sister, and daylie heard Masse, Some cause there must bee of her apprehen­sion, [Page 38] which must also bee some great cause, for no small cause can vrge the calling in question, and apprehension of the sister of a Queen regnant, and her next and apparent heyre, But I wil leaue the belief of this to your own leasure & pleasure, when you shal haue better thoght vpon it, or better enformed your self about the matter.

I accept of that libertie, but in the meane tyme I must tel you that I must yet put you to your trumpes, about the greatest and moste important cause of Queen Elizabethes & our natiōs fauouring & assisting the Hollanders, which was the cause of religion, they professing with vs, one same Ghospel.

I doubt whether they professe with vs one same Epistle, but one same Ghos­pel I am sure they professe not.

I pray what differs their Ghospel frō ours?

Is there no difference between Prote­stants and Puritanes?

Not much.

Why haue wee then so much cōten­ded about so litle a difference? why haue so manie bookes bin written by those of the one and the other syde, one against another? why restraints of preaching? why imprisonment of somanie of the bretheren? why punishments with death and exile?

I graunt you, some seditious and vuru­lie tounged fellowes haue smarted.

Had it bin wel donne to defend such?

No.

More then such our countrimē defēd in Holland, for your Gomarists in Holland [Page] those I meane that are of the States pe­culiar religion, are more seditious and vurulie tounged followes then are our English Gomarists, I meane our Puritanes, who are iust of the same inward illumi­nation of spirit, as are their deerest bretheren the Gomarists of Holland, diffe­ring onlie in name, but not in mynde or nature. Heer at home you seeme not willing to defend such vurulie tounged fellowes, & yet you go from hence into Holland to fight for them, But these fello­wes are yet more vurulie tounged then our Puritanes, for they go farther then to the making of Pettie Popes, and Pettie Antichristes of our Bishops, Seeing they wil make whosoeuer it bee beeing a mortal creature, & taking vpon him the name or title of Supreame head, or go­uernor of the Churche, to bee no lesse then an Idol, and those that giue vnto him such title, to bee no lesse thē Idolaters, Behold what one same Ghospel this is with the Ghospel of Queen Elizabeth, [Page 41] seeing the Hollanders thereby, do make herself an Idol, and all her clergie and magistrates Idolaters, and I pray consi­der whether pietie or conscience could moue her to defend that Ghospel and religiō abroad, which shee persecuted at home, as holding it to bee vngodly & se­ditious, marck but the absurditie heerof. But how had Queen Elizabeth seen her self rewarded if these, good Ghospellers had in her tyme so wyde opened their budget as to let her see their making making of herself an Idol, & her prelates who Pu­ritanes did but make Pettie Popes & pettie Antichristes, to bee no better then Ido­laters.

I pray let vs alter our discours, and talck no more of these matters.

That in deed is the best remedie to auoyd reply vnto a matter, wherevnto no reply can bee found, But I pray giue mee leaue to end the matter I am about, [Page] and then wee will fall to what other discours you wil.

Me thinkes their hath enough alredie bin sayd to turne a mannes appetyt frō Holland cheese.

But I am verie desyrous to let you vn­derstand the effects of your endeuours, to the end you may the more esteeme the value of your deserts.

And perhaps I may say somthing that the companie heer present, hath not as yet heard of, & therefore may out of cu­risositie receaue contentment therein.

Mee thinkes you cannot say woors of the Hollanders then you haue alredie donne & therefore, the best may follow, seeing the woorst is gon before.

Bee it better or bee it woors you may please to accept of it as it is, seeing it is the residue remayning behynd & be­longing to the former matter.

[Page 43] You must vnderstand that I am not ignorant, that manie of our nation who deuote themselues, to the seruice of the Hollanders, think their endeuours di­rectly employed for the maintenance of one same religion with that of England, wherein I haue heer cleerly prooued them to bee deceaued, But now will I go further, and as cleerly prooue vnto you that you do aswell defend Luthe­ranisme, Anabaptisme, and Iudais­me, as the Holland Religion, that you supposed to haue bin all one with yours.

You must consider that the Holland re­belles at the beginning of their rebel­lion to the end they might fortefy them­selues with all sortes and sectes, made open profession that according to the Ghospel, all men oght to haue their consciences free, and that no man for his religion oght to bee called in que­stion or troobled, by meanes whereof the religions and beliefs in Holland▪ [Page] are grown to bee infinit, euerie mā ma­king choyce to bee of what religion hee list, and if hee list not chuse anie of the rel [...]giōs that are alredie made to his had, hee may make one of his own deuysing, and draw as manie vnto it as hee can, & hee may leaue it of and make or chuse another in steed thereof, or leaue all religious and bee of none if he please, and boldly make his profession so to bee: But the high Powerfull Lordes the States, notwithstanding they allow all this freedome to the generali­tie, yet they allow free exercise of reli­giō, but to the fowre sortes afore-named, to wit, to the profession of their own, Geus or Caluinian religiō, To that of the Lutherās to that of the Anabaptists, & to that of the Synagogue of the Iewes, none of all which relig [...]ōs beeing allowed in Englād▪ but beeing by authoritie of the Sta­tes allowed in Holland whosoever em­ployeth himself in defēce of that vsurped State & Gournment doth consequētly [Page 45] defend these fowre different religious, & aswel all fowre as anie one. He de­fendeth that Caluinisme, that maketh either Prelate or Prince that hath the title of Supreame headship or Gouern­ment of the Churche, to bee an Idol.

Hee defendeth Lutheranisme that hol­deth the real presence of Christe to bee in the Sacrament, euen the verie same bodie that was borne of the blessed Vir­gin Marie, Hee defendeth Anabaptisme that holdeth it vnlawfull to Baptise children, and among other heresies teacheth that Christe took no flesh of the Virgin Marie. And hee defendeth Iudais­me that denyeth our Sauiour Christe to bee the true Messias and Sauiour of the world, for if by force of armes the state of these States were not defended, these different sectes could haue in Holland no allowance of free exercise of religion. Now besydes these allowed exercising sectes, there is the late risen sect of the Pe fectists, which as it seemeth needeth [Page] no leaue or allowance of exercise, be­cause it is come to such perfection that it is past exercise. These bee such as haue bin great travailers in the woord, and continual goers to sermons, and fynding that S. Paule speaketh, of some that are alwayes learning, and neuer attayning vnto the knowledge of the truthe, they wil not bee accompted such truants or non proficientes, as stil to haue need of teaching and instruction, they perceaue by their inward illumination of spirit, that they are come to the rypenes of per­fection, they haue made trial thereof by their examining one another, aswell about the exposition of textes, as of their text-fastnes in citing chapter and verse without mistaking it, as redelie, yea and some tymes more redelie then the Prea­cher himself, whereby they see them­selues somuch to haue profited, that they haue no need to run vp and down after sermon-makers, but leaue them to the instructing & teaching of the ignorant.

[Page 47] These now and then meet together among themselues, and consolate one another in the Lord, with singing of Psalmes, & discoursing out of the woord, according to the perfection & greatnes of their knowledge.

Where are our poor Puritanes in respect of these, that all the dayes of their lyues run vnsatisfied with sermon-hea­ring, behold how these Holland bretherē haue gotten the start of them, and leaue them to remayn the perpetual prentises of their sermon-makers.

Mee thinkes you haue drawn out the reconiug of my seruice, which is greater then my self vnderstood it to bee.

Greater but not better, for I suppose you vnderstood it not to bee so il, but beeing so good as you supposed it, to wit to bee employed in defence of the Ghospel, it could bee but bad, because no good Ghospel can allow stealing.

No more doth that, for they hang thieues as wel in Holland as they do in England.

Thieues that steal try fles are there hāged by thieues that steal whole prouinces & citties, so as they are not hanged because they steal, but because they steal not fiō the King of Spayn, as thogh it were ho­nester theft, for a man to robbe his master, then to robbe another man.

You haue exceedingly disgraced my seruice.

Not with intention to disgrace your self, but to let you see how vniust and wrōg a cours both you and others take, to the end that knowing it, you & they may relinquish it, and make choyce of a cours more agreable to your woorthi­nesses and valour.

But now Sir I must tel you concerning your choyce of seruice, that if wee had one of our preachers heer, hee would tel you that it were in desence of Ido­latrie.

If hee did so, and could prooue it so, I would aske God forgiuenes & leaue it, but that is hee not able to prooue.

Hee would tel you that you woorship­ed bread in the Masse, for the bodie of Christe.

If wee so did, that were Idolatrie in deed. Wee do not in anie sorte intend anie woorship vnto bread, all the deuo­tion woorship and honor which there wee doe, is meerly & sincerly intended vnto the true bodie of Christ, the which if it should not bee there, then is there no woorship or honor at all by vs inten­ded, But our warrant for the beeing [Page] thereof there, is so great that it is not de­ryued from the mouth of anie mortall man, but euen from the verie mouth of him that is Christe and God, who can­not possiblie deceaue vs, neither can his power bee insufficient to make good his own woordes, and if it were possible that it could bee but bread, yet hee having sayd it was his bodie and I be­lieuing it so to bee, his [...]ustice & goodnes is such that hee cannot condemne mee of misbelief, himself having bin the cause why I so belieue, for if hee neuer had sayd it, I had neuer belieued it. I can do Christe no greater honor then to giue credit vnto his woordes, nor no greater dishonor then not to belieue them to bee veritable.

But Sir, our Learned men say that Christes woordes at his last supper oght otherwise to bee interpreted, & not vn­derstood as hee there spake them, but that in saying the bread was his bodie, [Page] hee intēded to haue it vnderstood to bee the signe or figure of his bodie.

They that pretend to prooue all their doctrine by scripture, do consequently oblige themselues to shew vs wherein scripture it is sayd that Christe ment it for the signe or figure of his bodie?

If they haue this knowlege by inward illumination, how can they let vs know that it is of God?

I do not remembr to haue heard anie text of Scripture alleaged for it. And for inward illuminations I know not what to say.

That Christe ment it for the figure of his bodie is Caluinistical & Anabaptisti­cal scripture, made without book, but in sacred scripture not to bee foūd, & as for their inward illuminatiōs what cā they bee other thē such dreames as all other sectaries are as full of as they, & cā say as­wel as they, that they had thē frō aboue [Page] & perhapsly not altogether neither, for it may bee that such fancies came in their heades when they were in their garrets. And yet was the inward illumi­nation of Loy the Slater of Antwerp in lyk­lyhood more higher, for hee (as hee sayd) had his as he sat aboue on the top of a hows couering it with slate, and it was, that there were no devilles, no hel, nor no resurrection of the dead, and that Christe & his Apostles, mētioning such thinges, ment otherwise thē they spake, and in this his illumination hee was so confident, that the light of burning fire, wherein himself was cosumed, could not put him out of his opinion.

And seeing you confesse not to haue heard anie text alleaged that maketh this Sacrament a figure of Christe his bodie, nor anie proof or reason to oblige belief of imagined illuminations, I wil now shew you by playn scripture that Christ himself could not meane it to bee the figure of his bodie.

If you do that you do much.

I pray you then Sir tel mee, was it the figure of Christe his bodie that was cru­cifyed for vs on the Crosse, or was it his true bodie?

It was without all doubt his true bodie.

Then must without all doubt his true bodie bee in this Sacrament, seeing Christ sayd: Take and eat this is my bodie which shalbe giuen for you, &c. and that no figure was giuen for vs.

There by the Lord, you haue posed mee in deed.

But I wil yet go further with you, sure I am that none of the disciples of Christ that were present at the speaking of those woordes, do assigne vs to the [Page 54] seeking out of some other meaning, if this had bin requisite themselues had known it best, & could best haue bin the interpreters, & so without all doubt would haue bin, if the intention of Christe had bin such, for neuer would they haue letten all ensuying Christians of the world as well of the Greek as of the Latin Churche and all others, haue run on in the belieuing his woordes as they were spoken, vntill hee should send new teachers into the world to interpreet his meaning fifteen hun­dreth yeares after they were spoken, which cannot stand with the proui­dence and goodnes of God, But to the contrarie that no such interpretation was by God intended, is cleerly mani­fested to all the world, by the confusion which hee hath permitted to bee among the interpreters, the one inter­preting his woordes one way, the other another way, & so contrarie & discordāt that no reconciliation can bring them [Page 55] to haue one same vnderstāding of Christ his meaning, And therefore remayn they to their own shame and confusion in perpetuall discord, giuing in effect the one the other the ly about the mat­ter, and challenging one another to the weapō of the woord, euen to the killing and sleaing of soules.

I haue aduentured heer to say thus­much notwithstanding I am no diuine, because you should vnderstād how farre Catholykes are from the moste abhomi­nable sin of Idolatrie, And I must fur­ther note vnto you the absurditie of this calumnie: Idolatrie did alwayes consist in the offring vp of Sacrifise to Idoles, but by the making of Catholikes Idola­ters they do make the Sacrifise it self, which they offer vp, to bee an Idol.

I perceaue you would seeme to haue bin to heard for mee if I should giue you [Page] ouer so, But I must now demaund fur­ther of you, whether Protestants or Pa­pists go neerer to the manner of Christ his celebrating this Sacrament, Christe I am sure both instituted and celebrated it at a table, but not at an Altar, as you doe, and therefore you varie and differ from Christe, and this beeing so mani­fest, it is consequently manifest, that heer I haue put you down, for this you can­not deny.

I haue alredie told you that I am no diuine, and I had not thought to haue bin by you put to defend matter of religion, but seeing you haue again put mee to it, and that you think you haue put mee down about it. If I cannot recouer my self I suppose you wil triumphe and trample vpon mee. True it is that Christe instituted and celebrated this B. Sacrament vpon a table, and not vpon an Altar, and Protestants do also cele­brate their communion vpon a table, [Page 57] wherein they shew themselues to teach and controlle their Patriarche Luther, who celebrated his communion vpon an Altar, as all his truest followes in Germanie continew to do, as also their anceters the Hussytes of Bohemia, and yet did both Husse and Luther, assure them selues to haue penetrated as farre into the woord as Caluinian-Protestants, and Anabaptists can assure themselues to do, no Christians in the world vsing tables in steed of Altars but onelie they, nor none denying the real presence of Christein that Sacrament but they, and their dependants.

But now as touching your Protestants celebrating vpon a table, to the end you may discouer how truely they imitate Christe I must discouer vnto you a nota­ble trick of fraud of theirs (if I may bee so bold as call it so) which is, that they make a shew of exactly imitating Christe his manner of dooing, by the vse of ta­bles & not Altars, to deceaue the ignorāt [Page 58] multitude, but they deny the veritie of Christe his woordes in the principalle matter of faith which vnto this Sacra­ment is belonging, which is no pettie peece of coosinage, and moste farre from the true imitation of Christe, seeing faith and belief importeth more then a shew of obseruing his manner of dooing in the onely vse of a table.

The cause and reason why Christe ce­lebrated on a table, and not vpon an Al­tar, was because hee had supped at the same table, & after hee had supped he there celebrated this Sacrament, having purposely referred it for the last and moste principall actiō which hee would performe in the presence of his disciples before his passion.

But if Protestants would professe herein to follow Christe ptecysely, thē must they not celebrate their communiō vpon hows-tables, in Churches, seeing Christe did not so, but vpon hows-tables in priuate howses, & in paued parlers of [Page 59] such howses. It must also bee at night & after supper, at which supper they must haue eaten a roasted Lamb.

There must also bee neither more nor lesse then thirteene persons at the table, and these must bee all men, for Christe had not one woman present at his celebration.

There must neither Ghospel nor Epi­stle bee red, for when Christe celebra­ted they were not written, Geneua songes must not thear bee sung, but the Hymne (if Protestant reformation can produce it) must bee repeated, which was sayd before hee and his disciples rose from the table.

But it now appeereth that Prote­stants, make a shew of imitating Christe onlie in the vse of a hows-table, and omitt all the rest, which is but an imi­tation by peece meal, taking and leaving, what they list, at their own pleasures And I dare confidently avouch, that if anie Sermon-maker in [Page 60] England should in his pulpit vrge the vse of all these omitted thinges, for the more exact following of Christ, wherein must also bee comprysed his girding himself with a towel and his washing his communicants feet, hee should bee exactly punished for his labor, and thus may you see what is become of your making a hows-table a Churche-table.

But say you what you can, you cannot deny but Christe vsed a table and not an Altar, and therefore wee imitate Christ more them you.

You make a shew to imitate Christe, and it is but in the onlie vse of a table, which is as it were but a couer to hyde your deuiall of the veritie of the chiefest matter of faith, and why do you not imitate the rest which heere I haue mētioned as wel as onlie the table, seing you should better imitate Christe in his whole manner of dooing then in a parte [Page 61] thereof? or can you shew mee where you were appointed to imitate him in the vse of a hows-table, and not in the rest, nor in the Sacrament of Baptisme as wel as in this one thing of his supper, Christ was baptised in a riuer, why baptise you not also in riuers, vpon what warrant vse you Fontes in Churches more then Altars.

But now must I go further with you seeing you haue put mee to it, and tel you of another Communion fraud, and I pray you note it. Your Protestant mi­nister in his administring his commu­nion vseth these woordes, to his com­municant. vidz.

The bodie of our Lord Iesus Christe which was giuen for thee, preserue thy body and soule into euerlasting lyf, And take and eat this in re­menbrance that Christe dred sor thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith with thancks-giuing. I demaund now of you whether Christe be truelie imitated heer in or no. Or whether these woordes heer by the [Page] Minister spoken, are the same woords that Christ him self did speak?

Did not Christe say vnto his Apostles, Take & eat this in remenbrance of mee.

No Sir.

Wil you deny that?

I cannot but deny it, because Christe did not so speak.

How spake hee then?

Hee sayd vnto his Disciples when hee had taken bread & blessed it Take and eat this is my bodie, &c. and having sayd this, thē sayd hee further, Do this in cōmemoratiō of mee. The Apostles were willed heer to do two thinges, the one was, To eat the Bodie of Christe, the other was to do this in commemoration of him, by the first precept they did eat the Bodie of Christe, by the second, in Christ his [Page 63] saying Do this, they had power and au­thoritie giuen them to do afterward as Christ there thē did, that is, to take bread to blesse it, to pronounce his sacred woords ouer it, thereby to make it be­come his bodie, and to administer it vn­to others as hee had administred it vnto them, and to do or sacrifise this, in com­memoration of him, for if this later precept had not bin giuen the celebratiō of this Sacrament had not bin cōtinued by the Apostles & their successors, but had onlie bin there at that tyme perfor­med by Christ & so haue ceassed. Thus may you see what a notable trick of Cal­uinistical falsitie it is, to abuse the people by confounding the woordes of Christe in saying in steed of his woorde Take and eat this is my bodie, And Do this in commemora­tion of mee, to say, Take and eat this in re­membrance of mee, which Christ sayd not, but they as if hee had so sayd, do the­reby consequently inferre that hee did say and vnsay, or as if his saying, [Page] Do this in remembrance of mee, which they falsify, and make to bee Eat this in remem­brance of mee, did wholie dysanul and take away the whole effect of his former woordes which were, Take and eat this it my bodie, &c. which is to make Christe to haue spoken those woords friuolously and to no purpose, for if Christ intended not this his blessed & consecrated bread to bee his bodie to what end spake hee those woordes? what edification could they yeeld? why might they not aswel or better haue bin left vnspoken? And why might hee not more directly and cleerly haue sayd at the first. Take and eat this bread in remembrance of mee, or as a signe or figure of my bodie, this had bin better fitting for the forming of a Protestant communion, if hee had intended it, But Protestants to come now so long after, to make Christe a sayer and an vnsayer, to bee hild vnpowrable to performe so much as he sayd, or to haue spoken friuolously and to no purpose, [Page 65] can no way stand with Christian pietie, nor confident faith in Christe.

By the Lord you put mee to it stil, but I must for all that haue about with you concerning another matter. You vse to woorship Images and by woorshiping them you make Idolles of them.

By this reason they that do reuerence vnto the Kinges chaire of State, do there of make an Idol allo. But you must vn­derstand that as the sound of woordes entring at the eare do reuyne memorie in the mynde, of the thing which by the sound is intended, so is memorie no lesse reuyued by the sight of the eye, and as at the hearing of the name of Iesus, the mynd is stirred vp to a deuout remem­brance and reuerence of him, so is the mynd by the sight of his Image, stirred vp in lyke manner. And heer by the way, because it is not impertinent to the purpose, I must alleage vnto you a late [Page 66] example somwhat concerning this pur­pose, An English servingman coming ouer out of Englād to Antwerp & beholding in the principall street of the cittie the Image of Christe on the Crosse, stood on the suddayn, amased as it were, at the sight thereof, & supposing it (as it should seeme) to haue bin the dead bodie of some malefactor newly executed (it beeing painted ouer with a pale dead colour) demaunded of one that was with him, what that man had donne that was so nayled vp there, but when the other told him it was the Image of Christe, re­presenting vnto the view of Christians his crucifying and death on the Crosse, for the redemption of the world, hee confessed that hee had heard it preached that Christ was crucifyed, but hee knew not for all that what crucifying ment, nor did hee euer apprehend it as now at the sight of the Image hee was moued to doe. I make no doubt but this man had heard sermons in England more thē [Page 67] enoughe & yet was hee with all his Ser­mon-hearing such a Christian, as neither knew nor apprehended how Christe had dyed for his saluation. You may heerby iudge of the vtillitie of the Schoole wherein hee had had his edu­cation, and of the requisytnes of such representations to the view of Christian people, and therefore with no litle rea­son did that great and godly Doctor S. Augustine (as did also other anciēt & holie Doctors terme the Images of Christe & his saintes, the books of lay people where by you may see that these men were no good protestāts, for had they so bin, they would haue defaced & broken them, & slaundered thē with the fals imputatiō of beeing Idolles. Beeing then as heere hath bin shewed, ordayned for represē ­tations & memories of Christe and his saints no reuerence is dōne at the sight of them, as meerly intēded to the Ima­ges thēselues, but euer intending Christ or his saints or friends which such [Page 68] Images may represent, for when the woman troobled with the flux had a desyre to touch the Hemme of Christe his garment it was not because shee thoght the garment of it self could do her good, but because shee thoght that vertue by that meanes might come from Christ vnto her, and yet may this deed of this woman seem according to the do­ctrine of Protestants to bee an act of Ido­latrie, no lesse then the woorship of an Image, which Christ (not beeing prote­stantly conceyted) approoued farre otherwise, both by curing her, and comending the greatnes of her faith. You must also vnderstand that Sacrifice was by Pagans offred vnto Idolles, in­cense was burut vpon their Alters, and it was death by pagan lawes to refuse to do it, But somuch as the dooing of reue­rence vnto an Image among Christians, is not comaunded, nor is it taken for scandall to pas by an Image & not to do reuerence vnto it, but left to euerie man­nes [Page 69] own discretion according as his mynd is stirred vp to some deuout cogi­tation, which by the sight of the Image hee may bee moued vnto.

I must confesse your woordes carrie sence in them, and that I neuer heard those reasons before, But there resteth yet one thing, that I must haue about with you for, wherein I think you wil bee put to your trumpes to the full.

If I then fynd not trumps enough wherewith to defend my self, my de­fect of trumpes, will become your triumphe.

Then Sir, I must demaund of you, with what proof of Scripture or shew of rea­son men may bee perswaded to belieue that such as are mortal men and sinners themselues, can forgiue the sinnes of other men. And strāge it is that so manie can bee made such fooles as on their [Page] knees vnto a priest to vtter the verie se­crets of their soules and consciences, yea and perhaps somtymes to declare such sinnes vnto him, as themselues after they haue donne them, are ashamed to thinck on.

I remember to haue red, that the Ie­wes vpō Christe his forgiuing of one his sinnes, sayd, that none could forgiue sin­nes but God onlie. True in deed it is, that no mortall man of his own authoritie, can pardon sinnes, yet having commis­sion from God to do it, why may hee not then doe it? vnles you wil say it is not in the power of God to giue him po­wer to do it, and that you will limit God to vse no ministers vnder him for the executing of his will, but wil haue him doe all himself. But that it hath pleased our Saviour Christe to giue such, power and authoritie to men, is mani­fest by his breathing vpon his Apostles, and saying, Receaue the holie Ghoste, whose [Page] sinnes you shall forgiue, they are forgiuen, and whose sinnes you shal retayn, they are retayned I pray tel mee now whether you think the Apostles by this authoritie giuen them by Christe, had power to forgiue sinnes or not?

Mee thinkes I must confesse they had.

Having authoritie then to forgiue sinnes, do you think they did vse it?

It may bee they did.

Wee must make it a cleer case that they so did, for if they did not, then did Christe giue thē a frivolous commissiō, or themselues committed a great fault in neglecting to execute his will, b [...]t it were impietie to think that either Christe would giue a friuolous com­mission, or that his Disciples would neglect the execution thereof.

Admit that Christe gaue them such authoritie, and that they executed it, is it therefore sayd, that Priests should haue it now?

If such power and grace had onlie bin giuen by Christe to his Apostles, and was not to remayn from them vnto their successors, then could no bodie haue reaped benefit thereby, but such as lyued in the tyme of the Apostles, and were conuersant with them, and so should all other ensuing Christians haue remayned depryued, of this grace and benefit, but so to think were also im­pietie.

When Christe gaue his Apostles com­mission to go ouer all the world to preach and Baptise, I suppose you wil not say that hee intended not that their successors should also preache and bap­tise. If hee intended they should, as I make no doubt, you will confesse, why [Page 73] should hee not also intend the autho­ritie of forgiuenes of sinnes vnto the successors of the Apostles, to the end that after-coming Christians might as­well enioy that grace and benefit, as those that lyued in the tyme of the Apo­stles, or shew where the one was called in or prohibited, and the other not.

I feare mee I shall faile of my expec­ted victorie.

I dare warrant you so much, because you may see your self in so good for­wardnes of fayling alredie.

But this confessing of ones sinnes to a Priest is such a thing, that I much won­der how people could bee broght vn­to it.

If you wel consider thereof, you shall see it a woork not to bee wroght by man, but by the wonderfull cōcurring [Page 74] power of God, for how were it els pos­sible, that Apostles of the Catholyke Churche should bee able to convert so­manie Pagan Princes & people to Chri­stianitie, and cōsequently to bring them to that deuotion and humillitie as to kneel down and make confession of their sinnes to a Priest, whereas wee cannot see that ministers do conuert anie such people vnto anie their new religions, albeit it bee farre more easie, and would neuer trouble them with confession of sinnes.

This practise of confession of sinnes albeit to the eares of new teachers it seemeth harsh, yet was it put in practise, by the holie friend of Christ, S. Iohn Bap­tist, before Christ gaue the authoritie of pardoning sinnes vnto his Apostles, for the penitent people that resorted vnto S. Iohn Baptist, did make confession of their sinnes, which it is not lyke they would haue donne, nor that the scrip­ture would haue mentioned it as a [Page 75] deed wel donne, if S. Iohn himself had not perswaded them vnto it, or approo­ued it. The Scripture sayeth they came vnto him confessing their sinnes. It is one thing for a man to confesse himself to bee a sinner, and another thing to confesse his sinnes, for when hee confesseth his sinnes, hee confes­seth what sinnes hee hath com­mitted. And the Apostle S. Iames pro­mulgateth the precept, by saying, Con­fesse your sinnes one to another, for this Apostle knowing that Christe h [...] sayd to him, and the rest of the Apo­stles, VVhose sinnes you forgiue they are for­given▪ & caet. Did also know that con­fession of sinnes must go before pardō of sinnes.

But if wee consider it wel wee shal see it to bee a moste great grace and happines imparted by Christe vnto men in leauing behynd him with his servants and Priests, this commission and priuilege, whereby sinners by [Page 66] contrition confession, and satisfaction of and for their sinnes may put themselues in state of grace, and dischardge them­selues of so heauie a waight in this world, as would beare down their soules to hel in the next.

The case concerning this matter of confession beeing so cleer, as heer both by scripture and necessarie deduced rea­sons you haue shewed, I wonder verie much why our Learned men, that pre­tend all their recours to Scripture, should not see and practise the same.

They cannot but see it, but they scufle it ouer, the silenceing thereof beeing vn­to them, reason of state.

How shal I vnderstand that?

You shal vnderstand that the new re­ligion-makers of this tyme, to draw people from the old, found it fit for thē [Page 67] in policie, to make their new religions more easie and pleasing, and therefore, such as follow the doctrine of Caluin ta­king a way confession, broght in pre­destination, teaching that God hath de­termined who hee will haue saued, and who hee wil haue damned, before euer themselues are borne: and who hee wil graunt or deny his grace vnto, and that to such as hee wil haue to bee damned albeit they bee innocent children suc­king at their mothers brests, and of themselues could neuer deserue it, yet will hee resoluedly deny them his grace so as they shall and must bee damned, By which new and moste damnable doctrine, confession of sinnes to such as are of yeares & able to make it, is as vtter­ly needles, taken away, and so is also in verie trothe, all deuotion and dooing of good deedes, for seeing God hath deter­mined before how hee will dispose of all mennes soules, his disposition must hold whether they thēselues do wel or il. [Page 68] and to what purpose then were going to confession?

In deed I haue heard enoughe of this in Holland, where Doctor Arminius a Protestant himself, did fynd it to bee against the iustice, and goodnes of God, and manie are now grown to think it so also, and to bee of his opinion.

There resteth yet one point that I must note vnto you concerning this matter of confession, because you sayd you mar­veled that men could bee made such fooles, as to tell their sinnes vnto Priests, but this wonder wilbe no wonder whē you consider that Priests must no lesse make confession of their sinnes then other men, for you must not vnder­stand that confession of sinnes vnto a Priest, is an inuention broght vp by Priests, to bee practised vpon other men, which they perswade vnto it, but a thing ordayned and instituted by [Page 69] Christe and his Apostles, & of religious dutie and obligation practised and con­tinued in Christe, his Catholyke Churche where there is not anie priest that is not as much obliged to make Confession of his sinnes vnto an other Priest, as anie other man is, and where there is no, Ecclesiasticall person, Pre­late, Bishop, or the Pope himself, that heerin is exempted, for euen the Pope who is the chief and head of all the Catholyke Clergie, must fit on his knees and make his confession to a Priest, albeit his own inferior, so as you may see that Priests in this matter of confession haue not imposed a burthen vpon other men which themselues do not beare. The lyke humilitie in confes­sion of sinnes is also seen in Emperors Kinges & Princes, no lesse then in other people.

But is this, so in deed.

It is moste vndoubtedly true.

But what if a Priest should disclose▪ what is vttred vnto him inconfession?

If hee should so do hee should bee grivously punished, and suspended from the practise of his priestly function du­ring his whole lyf, for confessions must not in anie case bee reuealed, and if so bee this seal of secresie, where with the lippes of the priest are sealed vp, should come to bee violated, it were the de­struction of the Sacrament of Pennance, which the holie Ghoste will neuer per­mit.

The Priest wel knoweth that confes­sion is made vnto God more thē to him, and that hee as the minister of God, is by hearing of the sinne to iudge thereof, and accordingly to giue the sinner good and ghostly counsel, and to ordayn him his Pennance.

To conclude this matter I must tel you, that it is onlie the diuel, who to [Page 81] keep vs from beeing absolued of our sin­nes, putteth all feare and shame before our eyes, when wee should go to cōfesse them, but sequestreth it from our sight when wee go about to comit them.

You haue of this matter sayd so-much that you haue made mee see that I stil haue the woorst end of the staf, and therefore to dispaire of the victorie, and to see my reasons not sufficient enough (in regard of yours) to make you turn Protestant.

If you could bring mee so farre as so much to dislyke my religion as to bee willing to relinquish it, it doth not cōse­quently follow that I should turn pro­testant, but I should then stand in a great labrinth to consider which of all the new religions that this day by pretence of Scripture wil needes bee the true re­ligion, I might make choyce of, for the vndoubted true religiō in deed, you must [Page 82] vnderstād I haue bin a travayler & haue had more triall and experience of these pretenders in the world abroad, then our puritane Idiots, that onlie heare and heed what their home-bred minister telles them, when he wil make it seeme as thogh the Catholyke religion had no more contradictors but those that are of his religion, as if there were not diuers others of different religions from that which hee holdeth (and of much lyke new-nes) that do as earnestly contradict the Catholyke religiō & asmuch pretēd to haue their onlie recours to scripture, as possibly hee can doe, & wil not by Scripture bee put down by such as hee is, albeitthey should with Bibles beat out their braines.

All these, how different soeuer from ours, & from one another, do as earnestly pretend restauration of the ancient reli­gion of the Apostles tyme, as they for their lyues can do, In which pretence both of theires and of ours, I haue so [Page 83] throughly penetrated, that I haue fully discerned the Idlenes thereof, for no one of them all can carrie the matter away with anie proofs or reasons pecu­liar to it self, which none of the rest cannot make his vse of aswell as it.

That there were in the primityue Churche somanie different religions as now pretend to restore the same, who can belieue? That anie one is the restorer thereof, how shal it bee known which it is? seeing none can anie way make him­self appere to be the same before others, If hee wil say that hee wil prooue it by the woord of God, how can hee make his proof appeer to others, to bee more cleere then their lyk proofs to him?

When I consider how our Puritanes do heer in England ween themselues to bee the onlie Scripture fellowes of the world, I cannot but laugh with my self to imagine how they would bee taken down with other scripture laddes that I [Page 84] haue met withal in my travailes in Ger­manie among Arrians, Trinitists, Luthe­rans, Morauian-Anabaptists, Holland-Anabaptists, and others of pettier sectes, that at the woord, would make but poor snakes of thē. I heard a Lutherā preacher at Augusta tel his auditorie that to deal with a Caluinist (intēding our Protestāts or Puritanes) the best way was to take Gods woord and grease him wel with that about the snowt, telling him still that Christe at his last supper, sayd, Take and eat this is my bodie, &c. Not suffring him by anie of his Caluinistical shifts, to slip from these wordes, so may wee con­clude quoth hee, that either the Caluinist must make Christe a lyer, or bee a lyer himself.

At Francford I heard an Anabaptist de­maund of a Caluinist, what Scripture hee had for the Christening of children, the Caluinist would haue gon about to deduce it by consequence, away with your consequenting quoth the Anabap­tist, [Page 85] for if consequences may bee admit­ted, I wil heare the Papists speak before you, you are the verie cooseners of the world, you brag and boast of profession of Scripture, and when you are put to it then forsooth you are farre enough to seek, and not in this matter onlie of Christning of Children, but of more matters besydes, If I would put you to it, and did not spare you for pittie, be­cause you are turnd without book alre­die.

I could alleage vnto you sundrie ex­amples of the resolutenes of Hussytes, Lutherans, Anabaptists▪ and others in their seuerall religions, which is such that none of our sermon-makers heer in England can anie whit go beyond them, I haue heard somanie of their different pulpit cryes, of the light of the Ghospel, of the pure woord of God, of inward illumination of spirit, of sealing it with their blood and such lyke pre­tensiōs, general to all, & as dulie claymed [Page 86] by the one sorte as by the other, that good experience hath taught mee to know such pretensions heer at home to bee as idle fopperies as I haue found thē in other countries abroade, serving onlie to lead away fooles, that see no further then the length of their noses.

If such as heer do keep the greatest coyl in their pulpit-crying of their light of the Ghospel, and pure woord of God (as thogh without all contradiction they were the onlie men lyving vnder the cope of heauen that had it) would but dare to appeer among these other seue­rall sortes of professors of other lightes of the Ghospel, and other puritie of the woord, and bee vrged if they will bee belieued before all the world besydes, to set down to the manifest view of all men, such proofs and reasons, for their assurednes of having the truthe, as all the rest shall not bee able in the verie lyke manner to produce for theirs.

Good Lord how would then our En­glish [Page 87] pulpit boasters bee puzled, and what pouertie would then their glo­rious Ghospel bee broght vnto? trust mee there could nothing in this case bee better fitting for them thē to trans­port themselues back agayn into invi­sibillitie (if they haue reserued the f [...]il) for thereby might they saue themselues from becoming (by beeing pointed at) the obiects of the sporte of all the others.

And thusmuch (with desyre of par­don) dare I further anouche, that I do not know, anie forreyn countrie vpon earth, wherein in anie sorte the name of Christianitie is professed, where the religion of England in the iudgment of the Learned of anie of these whatsoeuer, is fullie and wholie allowed for good, & not in one principall point or other, gainsayed & contradicted.

And whereas manie heer in England do stand verie much vpon the resolute­nes of their Foxian, Martirs, as thogh [Page 88] their sufferance for their Caluinistical cause were a marvelous, great argument of the goodnes thereof, but which of the other new pretenders cannot pro­duce their Martirs also? Husytes and Lu­therans are not without store of them, and both thinking themselues to bee much wronged by M. Fox. The Hus­sites in beeing robbed by him of their Patriarche Iohn Husse, and the Lutherans by beeing robbed by him in lyke sorte, of theire much esteemed martir, fryer Barnes.

As for the Anabaptists their number farre exceedeth those of M. Fox, and perhaps ten for one. They that list to make the calculation may cōpare those which they haue set down in their book of Martirs, entituled, The Sacrifice of the Lord, with the number of those that are in M. Fox his Acts and monuments.

I wil now ceasse to bee further te­dious vnto you, but by this which I haue related concerning religion, as also con­cerning [Page 89] your resolution in your inten­ded seruice, I leaue you to iudge which of both our courses is best founded.

I protest vnto you, you haue so intoxi­cated my braine, that you haue almoste broght mee to stand staggering between hauk, and bussard.

If you wil stand sure from falling, leane vnto the better and the stronger syde.

I wil think on the matter.

Forget not then to consider I pray you, euen for your own honor and the honor of our nation, that Englishmen stil con­tinewing to serue the Hollanders, not­withstanding all the vilanous wronges they haue dōne them, do preiudice their own esteem, among other nations, who may imagin them to bee so basely blyn­ded or bewitched by mistaken Holland [Page 90] Ghospel, that they cannot see themsel­ues made by the Hollanders in a manner as their slaues, for slaues receaue blowes and serue them that beat them, and euen so do our countrimen receaue blowes at the handes of the Hollanders, and yet serue them. The difference is, that slaues are beaten by their Masters at home, & Englishmen by Hollanders abroad, whyle their inconsiderate countrimen serue them at home, where if they ser­ued them right, they might right some of the wronges which abroad they do them. And I cannot enough wonder at the sencelessnes of such giddie pated prentises of London as durst so barba­rously abuse, an Ambassador of a King of Spayn, themselues not knowing anie cause why, & yet when by letters from the East Indies it was by our own Mar­chāts signifyed how moste barbarously and vilanously, the Hollanders had abu­sed them, these considerate youthes were not a whit moued to anger against [Page 91] M. Caroon, who carryeth the name of Ambassador for the Holland States, but could shew themselues so soft mynded, as to let him pas quietly in the streets of London in his Coatche, and do him reue­rence, as if they had thanked him for it. But beginning now to feare that I may haue bin to tedious vnto you and to this good compagnie, I will with desyre to be pardoned for my freenesse of speech, thank you all for your patience, & heer make an end of this busynes.

And I thank you also for yours.

Heervpon according to the promisse before made, this Toung-combat, ciuilie ceased, and soon vpon it, the Graucsend iorney also, and euerie man disposed himself, as his affaires, & further iorney lay.