THe whole volume of M. Deanes / containeth in it / 16 bookes besides a large preface / and an Epistle to the Reader: The Epistle & the preface / are not aboue 8. sheets of paper and very little vnder 7. You may see when men haue a gift in writing / howe easie it is for them to daube paper. The compleat worke (very briefely comprehended in a portable booke / if your horse be not too weake / of an hundred threescore and twelue sheets / of good Demie pa­per) is a confutation of The learned discourse of Ecclesi­asticall gouernement. This learned discourse / is a booke allowed by all the Puritane preachers in the lande / who would haue all the remnants and reliques of Antichriste dauntehed out of the Church / and not so much as a Lorde B. (no not his grace himselfe) dumbe minister (no not dumbe Iohn of London his selfe) nonresident / archdea­con / abbie lubder / or anye such loyterer / tollerated in our ministerie. Insomuch / as if this strong holde of theirs be ouerthrowne / hoe then all the fat is run to the fire with the puritanes. And therefore hath not the learned & pru­dent M. Deane delt very valiantly (how wisely let Iohn Cant. cast his cardes and consider) in assaulting this fort of our precise brethren / which he hath so shakē with good vincible reasons very notably out of reason / that it hath not one steane in the foundation meare then it had.

Trust me truely / he hath giuen the cause sicken a wipe in his bricke / and so lamb skinned the fame / that the cause will be the warmer a good while for it. The reasons that moued him to take this paines was / that at the first com­ming out of the Learned Discourse / the D. in a Sermon [Page] of his at Paules crosse / did not onely confute a great part of this booke / but by his said learned sermon / made many of the puritans relent and distrust their owne cause. what cannot a smooth tongue / and a schollerlike wit bring to passe? [...] brother dean [...]hat you are [...]uch a doer. Some other of the puritans / in deede / being more vntoward to learne then the rest / stood stiffe in their for­mer opinions / concerning the gouernment of bishopps / (notwithstanding this sermon of M. doctors) & challen­ged him for his sermon / offered him y ^e disputation (yea & the non plus too / or els I am deceiued) here M. dean pro­mised them a large confutation of the Learned discourse / which in this [...]ooke he hath now performed: wherein he hath behaued himselfe verye scholerlike. His stile is as smooth as a crabtree cudgell. The lieader cannot chuse but haue as great delight therein / as a Iacke an Apes hath in a whip: he hath so thumped the cause with crosse blowes / that the puritans are like to haue a good and a sound cause of it as long as they liue. In this one thing I dare preferre him before any that euer wrote: to wit / that there be not 3. whole periods for euery page in the book / that is not graced with a verie faire and visible solacism. O most excellent and surpassing eloquence. He speaketh euery thing so fitly to the purpose / that he neuer toucheth the matter in question. A rare gift in a learned writer. He hath vsed such varietie of lerning / that very often he hath translated out of one mans writing / 6. or 7. pages toge­ther / note here a newe founde manner of bookemaking. And which is more strange / he bringeth those testimonies for his purpose / whose very words translated & set down by him / are as flat against the purpose whereto he bring­eth them / as fire in quallity is contrary to water. Had not he a right vse of his wits think you / while they were thus bestowed? Not to stand long in this place of those qualli­ties in him / whereof before I haue made some mention to his praise in the former Epistle. Whatsoeuer might be for [Page] the ornament and furthering of an honest cause / he hath in this booke so defied them all / that elsewhere you are to seeke for them / for here they are not to be found. Wherin he hath very wisely and prudeutly obserued the decorum of the cause in hand. Like lips like Lettice / as it is in the prouerbe. The goodnes & honestie of the matter he hand­led / required such good & honest proffs as he brought. Let those that handle honest and godly causes / labor to bring good prooffs and a cleare stile. Presbyter Iohn defended our Church gouernement which is full of corruptions / & therefore the stile and the prooffs must be of the same na­ture that the cause is. The priest leaues not so much as the title of the Discourse vnexamined. The title forsooth is A learned discourse, &c. A sawcie title / but what sayth the lerned Bridges vnto it. O you know he is good at a stale iest / euer since he plaide my Lord of Winchesters foole in his sermon at Sir Maries Church in Cambridg / & ther­fore he iesteth at the title. I vs / the puritans haue nothing to doe with that sermon: why should they hit their bro­ther in the teeth therewith? he hath made their betters to laugh at him for his Sermon since that time. And whye should he not? for his grace will allow him / because he is content that bishops should be Lords: he hath subscribed / weareth a corner cap and a tippet / & woulde gladly come to the honor / to weare that which might make him a lord spirituall / and if it were a shauen crowne / or a coxcombe / which his grace his articles would enioyn him to weare / what hurt could that do vnto him?

Now I wonder what our brethren will say to this / that their booke is scoffed at / at the first dashe. I am sure their noses can abide no iest. What say they man / do you make anye question of that? I warraunt you they will affirme that the author of the Learned Discourse / and 500. green heads more that are on their side / within 2. Syllogismes / would set the deane of Sarum at a flat non plus, and an­swere [Page] his whole worke in a threepenie booke [...] Are they so good at disputing and writing in deed? I hope his Can­terburinesse will looke to this geare / and suffer them to haue liberty neither to write / nor to dispute / the black Oxe hath troden on his foote / he hath had some trial by woful experience / what small credite / and lesse-gaine there is to be had / either in writing or disputing with these fellows.

To the matter. The state of the whole controuersie be­tweene my brethren bishops / and my brethren the puri­tans / and so betweene this worthie doctor / and these dis­coursers / is: whether the externall gouernement of the Church of Christ / be a thing so prescribed by the Lorde in the new testament / as it is not lawfull for any man to al­ter the same / any more then it was lawfull to alter y ^e form of regiment prescribed vnder the law in the old testamēt. And see whether if there be any gouernment in y ^e Church (as necessarily there must be / or els all confusion will en­sue) the same must be by those offices and officers alone / and by no other / which the Lord hath set downe and limi­ted in his word. Or els whether man may alter these offi­ces and officers at his will and pleasure / and make newe offices and officers / as he may in the ciuill gouernments. The puritans saye / that these offices and officers / whiche our sauior Christe and his Apostles did ordaine / [...]re un­changeable / and that it is not lawfull for any pri [...]ce to al­ter them / no not though the circumstances of times / pla­ces and persons / should seeme in regarde of conuenience / to enforce him thereunto. The doctor with all the Lordly priests in the land / hold the contrarie. And sweare it to be lawfull for the magistrate to ordaine what gouernement he will in the Church: yea / that the Church gouernors / contrary to the flat commandement of our sauior Christ / Luke 22.25.26. may be Lordes. And that the Church go­uernment prescribed by our Sauiour Christe / and enioy­ned by the Apostle / was not immutable / as the regiment [Page] vnder the lawe was. In so much as in the opinion of M. Bridges and the rest of the cleargie / Paul was deceiued Ephesians the 4.13. in saying that pastors and doctors were to cōtinue in the Church vntil we al meet together: that is vnto the ende of the worlde. Here then is the puri­tans [...] [...] / for the permanencie of this gouernment / and M doctors no. [...] Our brethren (for so of his meere curtesie it pleaseth M. deane to call them / whome men commonly call puritans and precisians) to make their partie good / propound the cause by a like example after this sort.

The sacrifices of y ^e olde lawe (after the building of the temple / were to be offered Deut. 22.21. onely at Ierusalem / by a Le­uite / of the li [...]e of Alia [...]on 1. king. 8.29. onely: vnlesse a prophet ex­traordina [...]ily ordained it otherwise as 2. chron. 6.5. Nomb. 3.3. leuit. 8.9. Eliah did. And the said sacrifices were to be consumed and burned / one­ly by a fire proceeding from the Lord. 1. King. 28.32. Leuit. 9.24. Briefly / none were to m [...]ddle with the tabernacle / or any thing belonging to the seruice of God / but the sonnes Nomb. 3.12.35. of Leui / whome the Lord appointed for his owne seruice. So that if anye sa­crifice were offered out of Ierusalem / by any other then a sonne of Aaron / consumed by any Leuit. 30.10. strange fire / or any seruice about the Tabernacle Ezek. 44. [...]. performed by a stranger / not appointed by y ^e Lord: then an horrible breath of gods ordinance was committed / and punished very memora­ble by the Lord in 2. Sam. 6.7. Nomb. 16.1.35. [...] Corah Dathan Abi [...]am / & the two hundreth and fiftie captaines of the Congregation / who not being of the sonnes of Aaron / would needs of­fer incense before the Lord.

In like sort / Christe Iesus ordained / that when there should be any ministers in his Church / they should be a­ble to gather together Ephes. 4.12. the saints / and that those in their proper and limited places / should be either pastors or do­ctors. In like sort / he ordained that som should Acts. 20.17.28. [...] 14.23.1. tim. 5 17. titus 1.5. Rom. 12.8. bear rule and ouersee the flocke with the minister / and they should be Elders / that the ouersight of the Church treasurie / & [Page] the care for the maintenance of the poore should be com­mitted Acts 6.6. rom. 12.8. phil. 1.1. 1. tim. 3.8. vnto Deacons / vnder which also the widowes & Church seruants are contained. He farther ordained / that before these officers shoulde be instituted / and as it were inuested into their offices / there should be had one exami­nation of their 1. Tim. 5.22. & 3.10. rom. 12.3. fitnes to exemte the same / and their vn­reprooueable Titus 1.6.7. 1. tim. 3.8. & 5.11 life. (And that) their ordination shoulde be Acts. 14.23. & 6.6. 2. tim. 1.6. by imposition of hands / with fasting and prayer. And by these 4. officers (say our brethren) Pastors / Doctors / Elders and Deacons / God hath appointed that all mat­ters of the Church / should be decided & determined. For these officers onely (and none else) must haue to do with the preaching of the [...]ord [...] administring the sacraments / making of mu [...]sters / excommunicating / and admini­string of all other Churche censures and punishmentes. But as for ciuill gouernment / punishment and censures / they must not meddle with them. Because these thinges onely belongeth to the ciuill magistrate whose off [...]e is not to be vsurped by any of the [...]mer. Thus our brethrē set downe the whol state of the controuersie / and thus by Scripture they confirme their I / and ouerthrow M. doc­tors no. Parlous fellowes I assure yo [...]. For beleeue me / it would put a man to his trumps / to answer these things soundly by scripture againe. Well / M. Deane on the o­ther side / verye stoutly proosteth his no [...] page 54. Page 54. of his by a conner axiome to beginne withall on this maner.

A very fit rea­son to prooue the mutabilitie of the Church gouernment. If this Church gouernement, by pastors, doctors, elders and deacons, be necessarie, then the Church in some age & place, eyther had this gouernment, or hath labored for it. A most true and tried trueth / what then brother Sa [...] / do you assume from this true gouerment? [...]ay sof [...] there [...]a masse deane / I trow the puritans will not driue me to make syllogismes in this booke. That is no part of mine intent / for if I had thought they would driue me to suche pinches / I would not haue medled with them. Naye by [Page] their leaue / if the assumption or proposition bee eyther more then I can prooue / or be against my selfe / I will o­mit them. Now good doc­tor send me the measure of thy head / that I may prouide thee a good nightcap. Pardon me I praye ye my masters / I will set downe nothing against my self / I haue brought in a true proposition / and that is inough for one man / I thinke. Let me see what you can saye to that. Mine assumption shalbe brought forth at leysure. Is the winde at that dore with you brother deane. I perceiue you will be of the su­rer side / howsoeuer it goeth. But brethren / what then say you to M. deanes reason? Your answere I know / may be of 3. sorts. First you may say that the reason is popish. Secondly / you may demand / whether it be mid sommer Moone with him or no / because he bringeth in / a couex proposition / and assumeth nothing. Can you blame him in so doing: For the assumption must haue bene eyther affirmatiue / or negatiue. Now if he had assumed affirma­tiuely / he had ouerthrowne himselfe: If negatiuely / then you brethren / would haue denied the assumption / which M. Deane woulde neuer haue bene able to prooue. So a man might put himselfe to a pecke of troubles in deede. And this is a point for your learning / closely to passe by that / wherewith a man shall haue no honestie to deale. Thirdly / you may grant the proposition to be verie true (to what end then did Sarum bring it in) because Gene­va / and other the Heluetian Churches haue this gouer­ment / and you labor for it. Seelie fellowes / can you saye no more / then vppon them againe M. deane / with your second reason thus concluded / page 55. with 4. good sub­stantiall tearmes. Page 55. No gouerment is an vniforme prescript that cannot be altered, but that which God in his worde prescribeth to be such. But the Lorde hath not prescribed the Church gouernment to be such, as all things appertai­ning thereunto, is an vniforme prescript that cannot bee altered. Therefore the Church gouernment is not an vni­forme prescript which cannot be altered.

[Page]Thou knowest not how I loue thee for thy wit & lear­ning sake / brother Iohn (as for thy godlines / I might ca­ry it in mine eye / and see neuer a whit the worse) notwith­standing me thinkes your syllogisme should haue foure tearmes. 1 The Church gouernement. 2 All thinges belonging to Church gouernment. 3 An vniforme pre­script / &c. 4 A gouernement prescribed in the word.

And ten to one brother / you neuer drempt to haue me [...] with your brother Martin / when you wrot this volume. Well seeing we are now c [...]me together / let me about this point of Church gouerment / father mis [...]erly spur a questi­on vnto you. The bishopp [...] woonted maner in this contro­uersie / to runne from the consi­deration of those thinges that are morall vnto thinges indifferent. Tell me then bethout dissimblation / what the bishops and you meane / when the question is concer­ning Church gouernment / to run by and by into the con­trouersie of things appertaining to Church gouerment: which for the most part are indifferent / and not set down in the worde / but left to the discretion of the Church. As though there were no difference between the questions. By what and how many offices and officers / the Church is to be gouerned? In what causes it is lawful for church gouernours to imploy themselues: whether it be lawful for one of them to meddle with the office of another? Or for one to do that action wherin the whol Church should be an agent? Whether they may be magistrates & church gouernours both at one time? As though (I saye) there were no difference betweene these questions which are grounded vppon the certaine prescript rule of the worde that cannot be chaunged / and other questions: which al­though they belong to the seruice of God / and the out­ward gouernment of the Church: yet depend not vppon any thing prescribed and exactly set downe in the worde / but vpon the grounds [...] of what in regard of the change­able circumstances of time and place may be most come­ly / most decent / most orderly / and best belonging to edifi­cation. Of this latter sort are these points: whether it be [Page] most conuenient / that prayer should beginne at 8. or 9. of the clock: whether the sermon should continue an houre or an houre and an halfe: whether the pulpit should be of woode or of stone / &c. Concerning which / the worde hath expresly set downe nothing / but commanded that al of them shoulde bee squared according vnto the rule / let all things be done honestly by order / and to edification. 1. Cor. 14.40.

Now reason with one of our corrupt bishopps / or any other that defende their corruptions / and saye that our Church gouernement is wicked and vnlawfull / because it is not expressely. set downe in the word. They will by & by demand / whether any thing belonging to the seruice of God be lawfull / but that wherof there is expresse mē ­tion made in the worde. And whether any thing belon­ging to Churche causes be changeable. As whether it may be lawfull for the minister to preach in his gowne / whereas there is no expresse mention that our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles did so? Or whether it may not be lawful for the Church of Geneua to begin his sermon at 8. of the clock / whereas it may be the Church of Hel [...]etia beginneth at 9. or at 10. So the worshipfull Deane of Lincolne (sometimes vnlearned Iohn Whitgift) not be­ing able to denie / but that the ministers ought to be cho­sen by [...]ayes: demandeth whether women forsooth were not to haue a voyce in their election or no? And thus all the packe of them run from the matter in controuersie / vnto the question of things indifferent. By this means / thinking they may bleare the eyes of men / if they cann bring any cauill / though neuer so impertinent to y ^e mat­ter. As who say all men were so ignorant / vnlearned / & blinded with the worlde / as nonresidentes and [...]. are. Ile besire them to leaue this order / or els they are like to heare of it. And ile besire you pres ryter. Bridges / not to bring foure tearmes in your syllogisme again / for an you doe / it shall cost me the setting on [...] My brethren the pu­ritans [Page] in this place / it may be / wold grant your syllogism to haue but 3. tearmes in it / and so would saye / that the words (all things) in the assumption may be [...] am­biguous / for if therby your worship mean all things ap­pertayning to the circumstances of the outward seruice of God / as the houres of prayers / the nomber of com­municantes in one congregation / &c. as you set downe your meaning to be / page 56. sect. 3. Then they say your assumption is nothing to the matter in question. The question my masters? why what a question is that? Did not I warne you aforehand / that M. deane had made a vow / not to meddle with the question. But if say they [...] you meane the Churche officers and their subiects / con­cerning which the controuersie is instituted then we de­nie the assumption.

And I warrant you brethren / he proueth the assump­tion by 2. reasons / page 55. First Christ is the owner and gouernour of his house which is the Churche, concerning the inward and spirituall gouernment of the heart. page 55. There­fore he hath not prescribed the outwarde gouernement thereof, Surely brother Iohn / I marueile vpon what to­pike place this reason is grounded / for scripture is not the foundation (you know) of the established gouernmēt you defend. As though (will M. Bridges saye) you are ignorant brother Martin whence I drew this argumēt. You would make the worlde beleeue / that you know not that I resoned as my brother London did / in his H [...]o­rough of faythfull subiects. The bishop of Londons booke. I tell you / I drew mine argu­ment from that place whence he drewe his / which you shall finde set down / page 42. of his booke (for I am sure M. Marprelat your booke hath the pages set downe in it / although the printed booke hath them not) O I re­member well in deed brother Sarum y ^e place you mean / and I remember that Iohn Elmars reason is very like yours. For (sayth Elmar) The scripture medleth with no [Page] ciuill pollicie, anye farther then to teach obedience, there­fore it teacheth not what persons should beare rule. And again / page 44. The ministers office is ouer the soule, ther­fore a minister must not reprehende disorders in the ciuill state. page 47. Paules commission is to teache obedience, therefore hee hath nothing to doe to call for a redresse of matters in ciuil pollicie: yea in this 47. page / line 19. Iohn of London hath these wordes / which to his commendati­on I will set downe as followeth.

And this being a great matter of pollicie (sayth he) as it is the greatest (for it containeth the whole) it cannot be within the compasse of Paules commission, and so it fol­loweth, that Paul in this place ment no such matter as they gather, or if hee did, he did it without the compasse of his commission, &c.

Nowe truely brother Bridges / I thanke you heartily for putting me in minde of this point / I hope my brother London cannot be offēded with vs / for / quoting him for our authoritie. I see now it is no maruaile though Paul be put to silence within the diocesse of London / for I per­ceiue there is an olde grudg betweene my Lord and him: yet I commende your fatherhood / better then his Lord­ship in this point. For in the 57. page of your booke / you allowe Paule a larger commission / where you say / that the worde of God is able to make the ciuill gouernement perfect: yea, and that the perfection of the ciuill gouerne­ment, must be out of the word, and in the word inclusiue­ly. But for all this / you must giue me leaue to doubt how this reson of yours followeth. Christ hath prescribed the inward gouernment / therfore he hath not prescribed the outwarde. It may be your seconde reason will make the matter more cleare vnto me / which is in the same page / & thus framed. Page. 55. We are his Church if we holde fast the confi­dence of our hope vnto the end. Therefore there is no ex­ternall gouernment of the Church set downe in the word. [Page] This reason / to omit what ground it hath in the worde / is very plausible euen in nature: is it not thinke you? A man is a man though he go naked. Therefore by maste [...] deanes reason / the Lorde hath ordained no couering for his nakednes. Again / a man is a man if he be once born / though he neuer eate meate: therefore it is not the ordi­nance of God he should eat meat. Let our cauilling bre­thren / go see nowe what may be brought to reproche the credit of such inforcible proofes. M. Doc. doubtlesse will stand to his tackle whatsoeuer they bring. If they should be so ignoraunt as to denie the consequent of both these reasons / they must stay vntill M. Deane hath read euer his predicables / & predicaments with fryar. Titlemanes rules / De inveniendis medijs .v [...]. vntil he hath gotten a bi­shoppricke / before he prooue eyther of them. And it may be then to / that he will prooue what they denie / as ma­ster Canterburie hath prooued / that which master Cart­wright confuted.

In the meane time / marke how stoutly M. deane go­eth forward. Page. 56. And although page 56. he meet by the way with his nowne sweet friend Bellarmines / a popish wri­ters distinction / of agreeable / and not contrarye to the word (the papistes affirming all their m [...]ditions to be a­greeable / and none of them contrary to the word) yet his answere / page 57. Page 57. to the place of Paule / 2. Tim. 3.7. is as good and as canonicall / as anye of the former reasons / concluded thus. The place of scripture which doth not de­nie, but that the ciuill gouernement, which must be inclu­siuely according to the worde, Your cōsequent is false master Deane. may be elsewhere prescri­bed then in the worde, that place also doth not forbid the Church gouernment to be fetched from some other foun­taine, then the prescription of the worde. But this place 2. Tim. 3.7. doth not denie, but that ciuill gouernment be­ing a gouernement nor prescribed in the worde, may bee learned elsewhere, then out of the word, and yet be accor­ding [Page] to the worde. Also it doeth not denie but that the church gouernment may be a church gouernment accor­ding to the word, which is not therein prescribed.

It is a hard matter I tell you / to conceiue all the wis­domnes of this syllogisme. For if you marke the propo­sition very well / you shall therein finde the errors (as M. doctor accounteth them) of Peter and Paule / verye notablie ouerthrown. The one of them calleth 1. Peter 2.13. the ciuill gouernement / an humane ordinaunce: the other Ephes. 4.12. rom 12.8. 1. cor. 12.28. affir­meth our sauiour Christe to haue ordayned euery mini­ster and Church officer / that were at anye time to be in the Church / and to haue tyed the ministerye vnto two ordinarie functions / of pastors and doctors. But his worship lighting vpon william Woodcockes diuinitie / putteth in the propositions / both / that the Church go­uernment is an ordinance of man / inuented and orday­ned by man / and also that there may be as many sortes of ministers in the Church (if the magistrate will haue it so) as there be degrees of ciuill officers in a common­wealth. For the Church gouernement is no more prescri­bed in the word (sayth the deane) then the ciuill gouern­ment is.

You may see then / how headie and peruerse these our brethren are / that had rather sticke vnto a poore fisher­man and Tentmaker / Peter and Paule / in a matter of trueth / then imbrace the manifest falsehood of so plaine an vntrueth / with a fat deane / and all the braue spiritual Lordes in the lande. Well fare our cleargie men yet / (who being like the priest whereof Iohn of London ma­keth mention of / in his foresaid booke / page 32. line 3. Another course at you brother London. that sware by his priesthood / that if the Trinitie were not in his portesse / he would not beleeue it) will allow of nothing / but that which is in the B. of Canterburies Articles / be it neuer so often read in Paules writings.

And I trow M. doctors reasons following / wil make [Page] the puritans stoope vnto his grace / and leaue their pee­uishnes / and running beyonde their commission / after the example of Paule / in speaking against any establi­shed gouernement: yea and a gouernment established by act of parliament. I thinke my L. of London gaue Paule inough / as we heard before / for medling with state mat­ters. And his grace admonisheth the puritan preachers often inough / that howsoeuer they haue trueth of their side: yet they must not runne beyond a law / and without law: if they doe / though they haue Peter and Paule to speake for them / yet by your leaue / hee hath in his hande that whiche will tame them and all their fa [...] ­tors: If the abusing of the high commission & an whole popedome be able to do it. But all this while / we go not on forward with you brother Sarum. Page [...]7. Therefore in the next page / let vs here how you fetch your brethren ouer the coales with your next reason / whereof trust me / I know not / almost though it were to gaine a bishoprick / how I should make a good syllogisme / but I will do my best after this manner.

It suffizeth that suche orders as are not prescribed in the word / as things necessarie to saluation / be they ciuill or ecclesiasticall / bee onely foulded vp within those that are prescribed / and to make them as things expedient to edification / order and comelines / for obedience sake / al­though they be none of those things that appertaine to any necessity of our saluatiō / or to any absolute necessity of our obedience. But such is the Church gouernement as it is not prescribed in the word / as necessarie to salua­tion / or of any absolute necessity of our obedience. Ther­fore it is sufficient that the Church gouernment be one­ly foulded vp within the things prescribed in the worde / and be of the nature of the thinges that onely belong to edification / order and comlines.

I was neuer so affraid in my life that I shoulde not [Page] come to an end / till I had bene windlesse. Do you not see how I pant? Our brethren now are to come to their an­swere / Concerning necessarie to saluation / then say they / we woulde knowe brother Bridges / & thrise learned bro­ther Bridges / we woulde know what you meane: whe­ther such a necessitie / as without which / men cannot bee saued. I meane euen the same (sayth M. deane) as it ap­peareth page 60. line 21.22. of my booke: then we replie that nothing is of this necessity / but only iustifieng faith / and we denie the sacraments to be of this necessitie. For the theefe on the gallowes Luke 23.43. was saued without them. And we thinke moreouer / that your impietie and igno­rance (M. deane) to be outragious / and intollerable (say they) in that you go about to teach the holy Ghost what he shall prescribe in the word: because by this proposition of yours / nothing should be prescribed therein? concer­ning the sacraments: for they are not there prescribed / as things necessarie to saluation / in such sort as men cannot be saued without them.

But if you ment not this necessitie / then wee woulde knowe / if you can tell your selfe what you woulde haue / (forsooth brethren / a bishoppricke he would haue / and all such troublesome fellowes as you are / bannished y ^e land) Hoe yon meane such a necessitie / as euerie Church is not bounde to obserue the same order vpon their obedience. For example / you meane that euery Churche or seuerall congregation in Europe / professing the trueth / is not bounde to haue their Churche couered with lead / as the monastery of Sarum is. M. deane / my friends is not so precise as hee think [...] it neces­sary for them to haue a sermon vpon the Sab­both. For they may lawfully haue it couered with slade or tyle. You meane that they are not bound euerye one of them / to haue a sermon vppon the wednesday / for they may lawfully haue it vpon any other day in the weeke. That euery Church is not bounde to haue a pulpit 4. foot high / for they may without sin haue one lower or higher / if expediencie & edification require [Page] the same. That is euen my moaning in deede / and so [...] would / page 59. (saith M. dean:) That these things should be vrged no otherwise, then Paule doth vrge them: that is, not placing the perfection of religion in them, or making them orders necessarie for the building, but rather for the ornaments of the building, and so squaring them all accor­ding vnto the rule: Let all be done honestly, and by good order. Is this your meaning (M. doctor) you haue spun a fayre thred. Can you tell your brother Marprelat with all your learning / howe to decline what is Latine for a goose. Why this euery one of your brethren his selfe wil graunt to be true / and they neuer denied it at any time. But this is not the question. For it is neither concerning Churche officer / office / or anye part of Church gouerne­ment / whereof the question is instituted: but it is concer­ning matter of circumstance. Yet (brother Iohn) what do you meane by these contrarieties in this point. For you haue heard / page 59 / you meane by things necessary to saluation / matters of indifferencie: and page 60. line 21 / 22. you meane an absolute necessitie / without which / men cannot be saued. Do you think that you can answer men / by saying that you in deed wrote / page 79. But D. Perne wrote page 60. the which you had no leysure to ouersee. This is a prettie aunswere / is it not think [...] you? Let me take you againe in such a pranck / and ile [...]ourse you / as you were better to bee seeking. Gammer Gur­tons needle / then come within my fingers. And warned M. doctor / saye the puritanes / we will giue you leaue to take eyther of these 2. necessities to be your meaning. If you meane / as page 59. be necessarie to saluation / then they denie the assumption. And yet they will haue one course more at the proposition before they goe / because it came from home: and will bring foorth a Iesuit / vnlesse betimes it be had to the house of correction. They say thē that you still ioyne with Bellarmine. For in the state of [Page] the question / concerning tradition: He hath the same ca­uill / cap. 3. lib. 2. against Caluin / Luther and Kemnitius / which you haue concerning comdines / and order in this place / against your brethren. What a sawcie fellow was that Bellarmine / that must needes publish his worke for the Pope / one iust yeare before you published yours for the Archbishop? Could he not keep it in / vntill both your books might be published together. For now these puri­tans do shake you very shrewdly / for borrowing popishe stuffe from Bellarmine / & ouerthrowing her Maiesties supremacie: whereas I am perswaded / that although Bellarmin had neuer written / yet the master that taught him / would in time haue fully instructed you / in all these points that are forged vpon his Anvil. And although (as I thinke) he saued you a great deale of studie / yet I pray you let D. Perne write vnto him / that he may know his fault / and you be certified when hee writeth againe / that both your bookes may come forth together.

Nowe if in your assumption (saye our brethren) if you meane by necessitie to saluation / that without which men cannot be saued as before: it is true / that the Church go­uernment is not of this necessitie / for in that sence as was sayd / the sacraments are not necessarie to saluation / or of a [...]y absolute necessitie vnto our obedience. Nay to be no traytor / no [...]dolator / no whoremonger / is not of that abso­lute necessitie to saluation / but y ^t he may be saued / whiche hath beene (so th [...] now he be none) sometimes an idola­tor / &c. If you meane that other necessitie / wherby al they that will haue any gouernment in the Church / are bound to haue that onely / and none els which God hath prescri­bed in the worde / or else transgresse y ^t inuiolable prescript ordinaunce of God / concerning the gouernement of his Church. Then they denie the assumption. Here is a pretie matter / that one poore syllogisme must be thus handled / I woulde his worshipp knewe who they were / that thus [Page] deale with him. I hope it should not be long ere [...] the Pur [...]iuant (as vnnaturall a sourfaced [...] / as en [...] was in that office) should trudge for them. They shall be met with one day I doubt not.

Page 18.M. deane page 58. sheweth very wisely that men must warily take heed how they builde (for the Bb. haue these 30. yeares so builte / that they are almost come to digg at the foundation of the Church) le [...]t velike men shoulde by building after the maner of the Apostles / ouerthrow the Monasterie of Sarum. And that were pittie seing from thence these natural reasons following haue issued.

Euerie thing that is prescribed in the word, contayneth in it the perfection of religion. But the Church gouerne­ment doeth not containe in it, the perfection of religion. Therefore the Churche gouernement is not prescribed in the word. No brother Iohn / nor baptim neither: For bap­tim doth not containe the perfection of religion in it / and therefore as you may wisely conclude / it is not prescri [...] in the word. We may alter what we will now / so that the part which we alter / containe not the perfection of religi­on in it / & be agreeable vnto my [...]. of Cant. articles. For they must be altered in no rase. And what reason is it that the Lord [...] supper should be receiued vnder both kindes / if the ciuill magistrate and the Churche / will otherwise or­dayne. For no sacrament containeth in it the perfection of religion: & therefore by M. deanes [...]r oposition / the cele­bration therof / is not prescribed in y ^e [...]. A man might keep good stir in y ^e pulpit / or in writing / hauing but this ground allowed him. And I thinke of such a preacher as this shoulde bee / Iohn of London spa [...]e in his foresaide booke / page 49. line 2. where he describeth his preacher after this maner: that he should be no milksop, no white liuered gentleman, that for the frowning & cloudy coun­tenance of euery man in authoritie, will leaue his flocke & crie Pecaui. And againe / in this page / When they come to [Page] handigripes, John [...] you must knows was a verie good with a twoe hand swerd in his youth. they must not onely flourishe, but they must know their quarter strokes, and the way howe to defende their head, &c [...] Such a pr [...]cher I say as this / would quickly with his quarter strokes / ouerturne al religion / & with verye good reason / if deane Iohns proposition be true / That euery thing whiche is prescribed in the word / con­tayneth in it the perfection of religion.

Will you haue any more of these blowes brethren / then touch them againe parson Iohn / with the second reason in this page. Euerie thing that is prescribed in the word, is of the substance of the building. The church gouernement is not of the substance of the buylding. Therefore it is not prescribed in the worde. Nothing but pa [...]alog [...]nes. Sir Bridges / do you not know before whom you speak? You thinke now that you play my [...]. of Winchesters foole / do you? Or that you are in the monasterie of Sarum among your roring quiristers. I would aduise you / learn this of me: That the Church gouernment is a substancial point of religion. And therfore of the substance of the building. That it is a substantiall point / it appeareth / because it is included within the commaundement which our Sauior Math. 28.19.20 Christ gaue vnto his Apostles / when he sent thē to build his Church / commanding them / not onely to teache and baptize all nations (which are the things that you thinke onely to be substantiall vnto the building (Naye wicked bishops / wil not acknowledge preaching to be of the sub­stance of the building) but also to teache them to obserue whatsoeuer he commanded them. Now he Rom. 12. [...]. 1. cor 12.8.2 [...]. Net. 15.6. Ephes. 4.12. orday as [...] he commanded that the church should be gouerned by these 4. offices / or els the Apostles woulde neuer Actes. 6.6. [...]. [...].14.23. 1. Cor. 23.1. tim. 5.17. [...]am. 5.14. haue obser­ued them / and prescribed them vnto the Churche. Was there nothing wanting vnto the building in Greek / while they wanted Fiders there. Titus. 1.5. If there was not / why should Titus stay there / to ordain Fiders in euery citie? If there was / what a dunse art thou to denie the Church gouern­ment [Page] [...] [Page] saluation / such a necessitie / as without which men cannot be saued. The next reason is for the golden pen. Either ne­cessarie, or vnnecssarie: But not necessarie to saluation. Er­go, vnnecessarie. Thus M. Doc. carrieth away the matter very clearly. Onely he strayneth a little curtesie with the Learned Discourse, in putting necessarie to saluation / for appertayning to saluation. You know he that can with a guilty conscience / haue a facultie for two liuings / may as wel be dispensed with / for a lye or two. And I wisse these fellowes neede not to be so precise of swearing by fayth & troth / and strayning out a small lye for a benefit / they cō ­mit groser sinnes many times. And this M. Do. hath o­uerthrowne their whole buylding in generall. Nowe hee commeth to the spoyling of euery particular part therof.

But before I come to these pointes / I care not inas­much as there hath bene often mention made of my L. of Londons booke / betweene our brother Bridges and me / if I set downe some part of my iudgement / concerning that booke.

O but M. Martin / will my brother Bridges say / will you meddle with that booke / which M. Amar wrote in the defence of her Maiesties gouernment. Heere is an inde corum persone in this speech I know / for the D. should not giue me this warning / but you knowe my purpose is to play the dunse after his exam­ple. So you will giue me and the Bb. iust cause to say that you are a sedi­cious fellowe / and one that disliketh of her maiesties go­uernment. And by this meanes you will incense many a­gainst you / that otherwise could not but fauor your wor­thinesse and learning. I would they durst say / euen anye B. of them all saye that I dislike her maiesties gouerne­ment. I would make poore Bb. of thē or I had done with them / if they should slander me in this sort. And they dare but raise vp this slander against me / I will persecute the whol generation of them / and make them wearie of slan­dering while they liue. Shall they deale with me / as you do (brother Bridges thinke you) with Daneus in your booke / whome you bring as an enemie to her maiesties [Page] gouerment: whereas he by name / and in manifest words commendeth / and prayseth very highly her maiesties re­giment aboue all others. Or will they deale with me / as they haue done with M. Beza? A horrible Par [...] [...]nd an vngodly. [...]onfer the Eng­ [...]ish with the latin copie. M. Beza cap. 44. of his Confessions written in Latin / saith / that he disliketh their iudgements / who thinke it vnlawful for women to beare rule. This book is translated into English / but it hath all this poynt left out in the Englishe copie / to the end they may (as it is reported) bear her maiestie in hand / that M. Beza is against her regiment / and so / that her maiestie may be brought in detestation of the Church gouerment which M. Beza fauoreth / as being a Church gouerment that cannot stand with the ciuill gouernment of women. What say you to this geare Bb. haue you delt well with M. Beza? Deale thus with me an you dare. If you will say that you had no such intent / as to slaunder M. Beza / in leauing out the said point. Then I say that you are e­nemies vnto her maiesties gouernment / in that you will wipe out of a printed / and a translated booke / that which was written in her defence: especially suffering the rest of the booke to be printed.

To returne to Iohn of Londons foresaid booke / I say although he hath therein / spoken against bishopps / euen our bishops now liuing / and so against himselfe / as being nowe a B. yet that his booke is a carnall and vnlearned booke / smelling altogether of earth / without rime / and without reason. And that his speaking against bishops therein / was but a snare to catch a bishopprick / as it now appeareth. The particular sentences & marginall notes shalbe set downe / and where I set anye note vpon your booke / there shalbe an m. for difference sake / added ther­vnto. We will beginn with your owne wordes vnto the Bb. that is vnto your selfe and your brethren / page 23. Pag. 23. The Prelates haue time of re­p [...]nta [...]s

Oh they may thanke God (say you) that they haue this time to breathe them, and bethinke them of their naugh­tie [Page] and hellishe crueltie, and to call dayly and hourely for pardon and forgiuenes, for let them thinke, that if they be not punished in this life nor repent: God accounteth their deedes so vile, Note you pre­lates. and their [...]ults so haynous, that no tempo­rall paines be inough for such offences. And therefore re­serueth them to eternall damnation. Oh howle and wayle you priests and prelates, not for the danger you stand in, of loosing your bishopricks and benefices, your pride & your pompe, your dignities and honors, your riches and welth: But for that hel hath opened her mouth wide, and gapeth to swalow you for the sheding of so much innocent blood, for murdering so manie martyrs (though this her true in our bishops / yet let me in steede thereof say / for impriso­ning so many innocents / and murthering the soules of so many in ignorance) and spoiling Christs church of so ma­nie glistering and glorious ornaments, The Queene de­ceued by her churchemen commended of all for their learning and discommended of none for their li­uing. Nowa lest anye man shoulde thinke that he writeth these things to popish bishops / you are to know / that he wrote them vnto such as were bishopps in the raigne of her maiestie / vnto bishops prosessing the gospel in name / but in deed deniyng the power thereof. And in the next page line 10. he hath these words against those bishops / and now against himselfe. Pag. 24.

But Christ knowing the bounds of his office, would not meddle with externe pollicies, translating of realmes, and depriuing of true inheritors. Now whē he was desired to be arbiter betwixt two brethren: [...]. 12. he asked not how the plea stood, Spirituall men should not medl [...] wi [...]h poll [...]ces. but who made him an officer? Diuines (me thinkes) should by this example, not giue themselues too much the brydle, and too large a scope, to meddle with matters of pollicie, as this is, whervpon dependeth, eyther the welfare or ilfare of the realme. If these two offices, I meane ecclesi­asticall and ciuill, be so iumbled together, as it may be law­ful for both parties to meddle in both functions, Mark this well you [...]haha [...] state men. m here can [Page] be no quiet, nor well ordered common wealth.

Thus the reader may see / what a paterne of hypocrisie this wicked bishop since he wrote this book / hath shewed himself to be: in taking vpon hi [...] / not onely that calling / whiche in his owne iudgement is vnlawfull / but also in ioyning those two offices together: the coupling where­of / he confesseth to bee ioyned as well with the most vile disorder / as with the dangerous disquietnes of the com­mon wealth. And yet he hath not here left off speaking against bishops. Therefore / as before in the Epistle hath bin touched / he dealeth more roundly with thē / page 103 then before / in these wordes. Aduise to the bishope. Come off you bishops, away with your superfluities, yeeld vp your thousandes, be con­tent with your hundreths, as they be in other reformed Churches, where be as great learned men as you are. Let your portion be pristlike, & not prince like. Let the Queen haue the rest of your temporallities and other landes, Bishope lands. to maintaine these warres which you procured, Will you be content Bishop it shalbe so now? m and your mi­stresse left her, and with the rest to build and found schools throughout the realme: that euery parrishe Church may haue his preacher, euerie citie his superintendent, to liue honestly, In any case / let there be one mi­nister aboue the rest of his bre­thren. m and not pompously, which will neuer bee, vnlesse your lands be dispersed and bestowed vpon many, whiche now feedeth and fatteth but one. Remember that Abime­lech, when Dauid in his bannishment woulde haue diued with him, 1. Sam. 21. kept such hospitallitie, that he had no bread in his house to giue him out the shewe bread. Where was all his superfluitie to keepe your pretenced hospitallitie? For that is the cause you aleage, why you must haue thousands, as though you were commanded to keepe hospitallitie, ra­ther with a thousand, And I woulde mine Epistoma­ [...] were in print / there should you see that would not like you. m then with a hundred. I woulde out countriman Wicklieffes booke which he wrote, De Eccle­sia, were in print, and there should you see, that your wrin­ches and cauillations be nothing worth.

Hitherto you see that this Balaam / who hath I feare [Page] me / receiued the wages of vnrighteousnes / spoken in ge­nerall / as well against the callings of bishops / and their vsurping of ciuill offices / as against their pride / pompe & superfluitie. Must not he thinke you / haue eyther a most scared / or a most guiltie conscience / that can finde of his heart / to continue in that calling: yea / and in the abuse of that calling / which his owne conscience / if he woulde but awake it / telleth him to be vnlawfull? The Lord giue him repentance / if he belongeth vnto him / or speedely rid his Churche of such a scourge. And may not all the for­mer speeches be fitly applied vnto him? Is without dout. But the next he may be thought to haue written to him­selfe / which he hath set downe / page 34. Pag. 34. lin. 15. As if you shoulde saye, my L. Lubber of London is a tyrant, Ergo he is no By­shop. I warraunt you though he graunted you the antece­dent, Doth be meane Watson the pure ciuant trow you m which he can hardly denie, yet he woulde denie the consequent, or els he would call for wiely Watson to helpe him. Here brother London / you haue crossed your selfe ouer the costard once in your dayes. I thinke you would haue spent 3. of the best Elmes which you haue cut down in Fulham / and 3. pence halfepenie besides / that I had neuer met with your booke. But vnlesse you / and Iohn of Excetor / with Thomas Winchester / who haue beene in times past hypocrites as you haue bene / leaue off to hinder the word / and ver godly men / I will make you to be noble and famous bishops for euer. And might not a man wel iudge yon three to be the desperat Dicks / which you brother London / page 29. affirm to be good bishops in England. For to allude vnto your owne words / page 28.29. Whereas other bishops in the land / for the most / (onely Iohn Canterburie excepted) lest they should one day answere for their proceedings vnto her maiestie / and gaine the euill will of the noble men / and gentlemen that fauour the sinceritie of the gospell / will not seeme to bee such dealers as you 3. are / though they serue at an inche [Page] in their place / to maintaine his graces pride and cruelty / to stay the course of the gospell / and to fetch in men with in the compasse of subscription / yet are they those for the most part / that will imprison none / and trouble verie few vnles it be for fear that if they should tollerate to much / they should haue a checke of their worshipfull Paltripo­litan. But you three / like furious & senceles brute beasts dread no perill / looke no farther then your feete / spare none / but with tooth and naile / cry out / downe with that side / that fauoreth the gospel so. Fetch them vp with pur­ciuants / to the Gatehouse / to the Fleet / to the Marshal­sey / to the Clinck / to Newgate / to the Counter with thē. It makes no matter with you (I folow your own words brother London) so you may shew your selues (in shewe though not in trueth) obedient subiects to the Queene / & disobedient traytors to God and the realme. Thus farre I haue followed your words / howbeit I thinke you are not well pleased w ^t me / because yo [...] meane not to stand to any thing you haue written. Nay you holde it vnlawfull now / for a preacher / as far as the two tables of the lawe do reache / to speake against bishops / much lesse any vn­godly statute. And yet you say / page 49. line 7. That pre­chers must not be afraid to rebuke the proudest, yea kings and Queenes, so far forth as the two tables of the law doe reache. As we see in Samuell, Nathan, Elias, Iohn Baptist, & many other. They may not stoope to euery mans becke, & studie to please man more then God. Thus far are your wordes / and they are as farr from your practize / as you are from the imitation of these godly examples whiche you haue brought. I see a bishoppricke hath cooled your courage / for in those dayes that you wrote this book / you woulde haue our parliament to ouer rule her maiestie / & not to yeelde an inche vnto her of their prileadges. Your words I will set downe.

Page 53. line 19 In like manner (say you / page 53.) if the parliament vse [Page] their priuiledges the king can ordaine nothing without them: The parlament resisted King Henrie the 8. if he doe, it is his falt in vsurping it, and their folly in permitting it: wherfore in my iudgement, those that in king Henrie the 8. daies, would not graunt him that his proclamations shoulde haue the force of a statute, weare good fathers of their countrie & worthie of commenda­tion in defending there libertie, &c

I assure you brother Iohn / you haue spoken many thinges worthie the noting / and I would our parliament men woulde marke this action done in King Henry the 8. dayes / and follow it in bringinge in reformation / and putting downe lord Bishops / with al other points of su­perstition: they may in your iudgment not only doe any thing against their Kings or Queenes minde / that is be­hoofull to the honor of god / and the good of the common welth / but euen withstand the procedings of their soue­raigne.

But me thinks you haue a palpable error / in the 48.49 & 50. page of your booke / which is that women are vnca­pable of the ministerie / not in regard of their sexe Women capable of the ministerie in regard of thei [...] sex by the bishop of Londons iudgment. / but of certaine wants and imperfections in their sex / vz. their want of learning and corage / so that if a woman should be brought vp in learning / and trained in disputations / & were not milder in nature then men (of al which wants in women / you speake page 48) but knewe their quarter stroke (which knowledg you require in the minister page 49) then by your reason they might prech in your di [...]ces: whosoeuer wil read your 50. and 51. pages / shal find this to be your iudgment.

Besides al this / the reader shall find such earthly & car­nal stuff in al these pages / that you must needs giue this iudgment of the whole book / surely fleshe / euen a lump of meere fleshe writ it. For there you shall see the Englishe man prefered before other people: only because he fee­deth vpon (and hath in his possession plentie of sheepe / [Page] Oxen / kie calues (I keepe Iohn Elmars words) Con [...]es / fish / and where as other nations feed vpon rootes / rawe hearbes / oyle / grapes / &c. Page. 110. & 111. Yea wee haue such plentie of calues in Eng­land that wee haue calues to our Bishopes. In the last place against the French King he raileth and outrageth in this wife. That Turkish valesius, that French tyraunt. Is he a king or a di­uell, a christian or a Lucifer, that by his cursed confedera­cie with the turke. Page. 112. line 27. Page 113. line 4. O wicked ca [...]tife & fyrebrand of hell, And line 8. O foolish Germanes, which conspire not together with the rest of christian princes, to pull out such a traytour to God and his kingdome, by the eares out of France, & hang him against the Sun a drying.

The discreet reader of that whiche hath bene spoken / may apparantly see the vndiscreete briutishnes that was in you / euen then / when you were best worthy to be ac­counted off. And thereby may gather what you are now / when you haue bidden farewell / not onely vnto the syn­ceritie of religion / whiche then you seemed to imbrace / but euen vnto all humanitie and ciuill behauiour. And yet you doe not thus leaue the Frenche king / but in this page. 113. line 13. You say that the diuel hath none of his side now / but him to maintaine both the spirituall & the temporall Antichrist: in the same page / Wherefore seeing he hath forsaken God, like an Apostata, and solde himselfe to the diuell, &c. And line 27.28. Proud Holophernes. Oh blessed is that man that looseth his life against such a Ter­magaunt. Againe page 114. line 2. but this Iulia the Apo­stata, is named a diuels name, Christianissimus. Line 3. And like a trayterous Sarazen is Christes enemie [...] Here he lea­ueth the French king / and here I leaue his booke.

Nowe I entreat the reader to consider these thinges / that I haue set downe out of his booke / and iudge whe­ther such things as he wrote coulde proceed from a reli­gious heart: and whether the booke be not an offspring proceeding from a lumpe of earthly flesh. This booke is almost all the tokens of Christianitie / that euer he shew­ed. [Page] Since the time he became bishop / he hath bene a con­tinuall oppressor of the Churche of God. His practises a­gainst God and his saintes / was the onely cause whie I haue taken this paines with his booke / and he shall bee more beholding vnto me / vnlesse he leaue his tyrannie.

But now alas / alas brother Bridges / I had forgotten you all this while / my brother London and I were so bu­sie / that wee scarce thought of you. Why coulde not you put me in minde that you staid al the whyle. But it is no matter / we will make the quicker dispatche of our busi­nes. You shall see I will bee the more fauorable to you. And let me see howe roundly you ouerturne these puri­tans / for you are now to ouerthrow the seuerall partes of their discipline. Our brethren say / that our Sauior Christ ordayned an holy ministery [...] of men / for the buylding of his Church / and prooue the saying by the place of Paule Ephe. 4.11.12. Your mastership 3. maner of wayes shew the place they alleage / to make nothing for their purpose. First say you / Paule speaketh of diuers functions / there­fore nothing of Ecclesiasticall gouernment. This reason brethren is a very sound one / if you should denie it / then in deede / I must thinke you not to be altogether so lead­denheaded as your brother Bridges. For do you thinke that a man entreating of the Maior of London / the two Shiriffs and their offices / speaketh by & by of some part of the order & gouerment of the citie of London? or of som of the gouernours of the citie. As though my L. Maior & the two Shiriffes were now become to be any of the go­uernours of the citie of London / or their offices any part of that gouernment. Who seeth not by this example / the folly of our precise brethrens reason euidently declared. The Apostle (say they) speketh of Apostles / prophets / E­uangelists / pastors / doctors / and their functions (for this M.D. confesseth) therfore he speaketh of some ecclesiasti­call gouernours / and of some part of ecclesiasticall go­uernement. [Page] Apostles / prophets / pastors and doctors / are church gouernours with them / and their office a part of ecclesiasticall gouerment. Let them learne / let them learn simple siginnes as they are / that the Apostle speaketh in this place / of ecclesiasticall functions / and not of any part of ecclesiasticall gouerment. For so M.D. in this 61. pag compare line 17. with line 22. teacheth vs to speake Eng­lish: making an ecclesiasticall function / to be a thing alto­gether differing in nature / from euery part of ecclesiasti­call gouernment. A very proper and pleasant distinction.

In the second place / this testimonie brought in by our brethren / is prooued to make nothing to their purpose / by two reasons. You see that cousenadge is likelye within a while to be the steward of my brother Liche­fields house. And what bommination vmbertie of rea­sons here be / to perceede foorth one head / and yet euerye one fause / as it is true / that my good brother Ouerton / the B. of Liechfield and Couentree / sould his Chauncel­lorship at one time / vnto two se [...]erall men: to wit / to D. Beacon / and the good Chauncellor / M. Zacharie Ba­bington. Well parson Bridges his 1. reason is after this sort. That place which sheweth gifts and functions to be ordayned in the Church / to the buylding vp of the bo­die of Christe / in the vnitie of the fayth and knowledge: maketh nothing to prooue that there is an ecclesiasticall gouerment prescribed in the worde. Thou sayst euen true parson Iohn. For what hath the functions of pastors / do­ctors / Apostles / &c. to doe with Church gouernement. A prettie matter / euery beggerly Apostle / pastor / doctor / or Euangelist / y ^t cannot spende / no I am sure no [...] 40. marks yearely / by all the spirituall liuing he hath in his hande: must nowe be a Church gouernour with our brethren / & their offices be a part of Church gouernment. Why bre­thren / what meane you by this place you haue brought? O [...] you thinke / that the Apostle by those functions / and those persons / spoken of / Ephes. 4.12. meaneth that any of them functions shoulde be a Lordlike functiou / or any [Page] of the persons Lord. You saye he doth not. No doth not? Then out of your owne grant he speaketh nothing of ec­clesiasticall gouernment and gouernors. Because euerie ecclesiasticall gouernour must needs be a Lord / and so ec­clesiasticall gouernment / a lordly gouernement. If this be not true / aske my brother Bridges. For should God ordaine great men / and great Lords to be rulers in com­mon wealths / ouer whome hee hath not so great care as he hath for his Church / and ordayne none but beggerly fellowes (not able to spend 200. markes by the yeare / nay nor 20. neither) to beare rule in his Church?

I grant in deed / that you brethren puritans / saye the trueth as it ought to be / that bishops or ministers ought not to be Lords in any wise / eyther as ministers / or as ci­uill magistrates. Thus in deed it ought to be / I and my brethren the Bb. do grant vnto you. And you knowe we would it were so. But you know also that our laws will haue Church gouernours to be Lords / and what? should our Bishops (good noble men) refuse that which the law would haue them to take? Get you the law to be against their lordly callings / and see whether they will not giue ouer their Lord bishopdomes / whensoeuer lawe compel­leth them. And whensoeuer they giue ouer / they shall haue no cause to thanke suche enuious brethren as you are. Howsoeuer it be / you see the Apostle / speaking of all sorts of ministers / by your owne confession: speaketh no­thing of any Lord / or Lordly gouerment among them all / and therefore speaketh nothing of Church gouernment. Againe / all those functions whereof the Apostle maketh any mention / (as my brother Bridges hath well noted) are ordayned to the buylding of the bodie of Christe / in the vnitie of fayth and knowledge. Nowe I would anye puritan of you all / durst say that our Church gouernors: that is / our venerable and worshipfull Lord bishops / are ordained of God / for the building of his bodie / which I [Page] know you will say to be done by preaching? As though [...]. bishops / being ciuill gouernours should preach. Were it meete (I pray you) to see Steuen Gardiner / being thē of the priuie Counsell in the pulpit? Counsellors nowe / must haue [...]omething to doe with pulpit matters / muste they I pray you? Will you allow that ciuill gouernours should be ordinarie preachers in your new platforme of a reformed Church? I know you will not. And what rea­son is it then / that you should require Bb. to be ordinary preachers / seeing euery bishop is a ciuil gouernour. I tel you true / I am so far from thinking / that bishops ought to be ordinarie preachers / seeing they are ciuill gouer­nours / that I hold it a sin for them to preache ordinarily. And brethren / you doe not well therefore / in vrging ciuil gouernours to preach / especially seing you your selues / in your platformes / are against this point. And because it shall be seene that I deale vprightly betweene you and the P.P. prelates. I will set downe my reason / & answer it when you can: it shall be concluded I warrant you in moode and figure. But in deed I haue inuented a newe moode of mine owne (for I haue bin a great schooleman in my daies) which containeth in it a great misterie. The misterie I will expound / it may be in a book for the pur­pose. In the meane time / if you resort to my sonne Mar­tin senyor / that worthy wight / he it may be / shalbe able to vnfolde the secresie thereof. This is the syllogisme / the moode answereth vnto Celarent, elder daughter to Bar­bara, and I will haue it called / Perncanterburikenolde.

[Page]What say you now brethren / would you haue ciuill gouernors (such as our Bishops are) to preach? I hope not. For although I cannot deny / but som of our bishops are very great breakepulpits / and haue as marueilous rawe gifts in preaching / as any that euer came to Pauls wharff / yet surely I cānot see what warrant you haue to vrge ciuil officers to preach. Wherefore also you doe not well / in crying out against ciuil gouernors / because they preach not / as though their function were an ecclesiasti­cal function / or as though you would haue any to preach who had not an ecclesiastical function. If you demaund then / whether bishops be Ecclesiasticall or ciuil gouer­nours. They themselues say beath / and ai say brethren / that for the stopping of your meathes and other causes / I wad counsell thē / if they wad be ruled bai me / to be ne­ther nother. Now if yaw demaund againe / whether Bi­shops sin in being ministers / seing they are ciuil officers / or in bearing ciuil offices / seeing they are ministers. I haue already shewed that ciuil officers must be no mini­sters. And my brother London hath long since affirmed it to be dangerous for the common wealth / that mini­sters should be ciuil gouernors: and therfore brethren / to answer this question of yours / you are to know that I am fully of your brother Londons mind / who saith page 24. line 19. of his Harborough. These 2. offices, I mean the ecclesiasticall & ciuil, be so iumbled together, as it may be lawful for both parties to medle in both functions, there can be no quiet, nor any well ordered common wealth. Nowe brethren you must not think the worse of this ler­ned mans iudgment / because he is a Bishop him selfe, For euen since he hath ioyned these 2. offices together he hath proued his owne saying to be true for his part / in that his whole endeuor hath bene euer since he was Bi­shop / that we should haue no quiet nor any wel ordered church or common wealth. I hope by this time you see it [Page] plaine that Bishops sinne / both because they are ciuill gouernours / and being ciuill gouernours / because they are bishops.

Your 2. reason is / page .61. line 39. Paule speaketh of these gifts and of this building, and of the orders and ends thereof: therefore he speaketh nothing of ecclesiasticall gouernment. This is put home I trow / and ouerthrow­eth the puritans out of all cesse. It is altogether as good a reason / as an olde man yeelded sometimes to sir Tho­mas More / concerning the cause of Goodwine sandes / & the stopping of Sandwich hauen: which was / y ^• Tenter­tons steeple was the cause of Goodwine sandes. M.D. 2. reason to shew that the place of Paul maketh nothing for ecclesiastical gouernment / is after this sort. Paul in re­koning vp these gifts, referreth all to the vnitie in doctrine of fayth, and to the holy conuersation of life. Ergo he ma­keth no mention of Ecclesiasticall order of gouernment.

That were a pitifull hearing in deed sir / that the Apo­stle should speake of ecclesiastical gouernment / and speak not a word of any lordlike gouernment: that the Apostle should make any mention of ecclesiasticall gouernours / & not name a Lord among them all. Fie / fie / this were too bad / and my Lord of Canterbury would neuer abide such scripture.

But in good sadnes (saith the puritans) presbyter Iohn Bridges / will this place of Paule prooue no part of this gouernment which you oppugne? will it not prooue that God hath ordayned pastors / and doctors / to continue in his Church vnto the worlds end? No forsooth will it not quoth the Deane. And I am so farre from thinking that God hath ordained your preaching pastors / and doctors / to continue alwayes in his Church / that I haue made a praier / pag 655. line 28. of my book (as my brother Mar­tin you know hath noted already) that we might neuer see that day in England, In the Epistle [...]o the terrible Priests. wherein preaching might be had in [Page] all places. His grace of Canterburie (I tell you) hath con­demned the preaching of the word (as being the onely or­dinarie meanes to saluation) to be an heresie. This scrip­ture of Paule / that God hath appointed preaching pa­stors / to continue in his Church vnto the worlds ende / is a chiefe ground of the former heresie. I will allow of no such scripture I trow / as may impech the opinion which my [...]. of Canterb. conceiued of the preaching of the word.

You see therefore my friendes / that M. Deane in this point / will haue nothing to do with you / or Paules testi­monie. And you are not ignorant I am sure / howe soone all lordes would be out of the ministerie / if we had none in England / but the pastors spoken of by Paule / & there­fore M. doctor hath prayed against this order. Yea / and he hath brought such a reson against this your platform of gouernment / as is iust Secundum vsum Sarum. For in deed it is popish / and therefore you might smell it a farre off. If the Lorde (sayth he page 62.) had thought this go­uernement needful for his Churche, then he woulde not haue suffered his Churche to bee without the same. But he suffered his Churche of a long time to be without this gouernment. Ergo he thought it not needfull.

Ah craft / craft / craft and subtiltie / that can in iest de­ceiue his brethren with a popishe reason in this sort. But my masters / you must not thinke that our brother Sa­rum bringeth this in good earnest / but onely to trie whe­ther you be so simple / as you cannot know a popish rea­son when you see it. And to this purpose / I thinke that both his worship / & Iohn Whitgifts grace / haue broght in their writings / many things that are palpable popish / that they might trie / whether of knowledge / or of peeuish and chollericke rashnes / you speake against their gouer­ment. Nowe if so be that you could not discerne their po­pish reasons (whereof in deed you shall finde great store / euery third reason I warraunt you / in all their bookes) [Page] then they woulde haue this aduantage against you / that you were not able to knowe trueth from poperie. For (might they say) we brought in papish resons of purpose, but si [...]lie fellows / thei [...] skill is so smal in all kinde of lear­ning / that they cannot know a popishe reason / especially if we can face it out with a bragg / that we haue olde and new writers of our side. Now brethren / you must not thē / mislike your brother Bridges purpose / in bringing in this popishe syllogisme. This I speake / to the ende you should not crie out (as some of you haue done) that our bishops haue no better warraunt for themselues then the pope hath / for their gouernement. I grant in deede / that if you should take M. deane at the worst / you might saye that he might herein / reason as well for the Masse / as he doth for the established gournement. As for example / hee might thus argue. If the Lord had thought the Masse to haue bene a false worship of him / then he would not haue suffered it so long to haue continued / where anye weake one should be endangered / of being enforced to be present thereat. But he suffered it to continue a long time / &c. Therefore he thought it not to be a false worship. I say you must not mistake M. doctor in this sort / but knowe that he delt after the manner of the schooles / wherein it is lawfull (as Thomas Cartwright who hath bene pro­fessour of diuinitie / both in Cambridge and in Gene [...]a / knoweth well inough) for men to argue / pró and contrá, as well with / as against the trueth: and all is to trie out the trueth / whiche is onely the sole meaning that M.D. hath not at all thought off. But I pray you / let vs passe frō hence / vnto the 64. pa. where you shal find the calling of an Archbishop most notablie prooued / out of our bre­threns owne words. Our brethren ( [...]a the cloyster master of Sarum) affirme that Paule & Barnabas, ordained pres­byters, priestes or elders (for thus M.D. to his neuerla­sting fame / hath full often in his booke / translated the [Page] greeke word presbyteros) at Derbe, Iconium and Lystra. Ergo, some of these priestes or elders, were ordayned ouer whole towns, some ouer regions. And what could be more aptly spokē to the purpose / or more fitly proue an Archie­piscopall calling? But truely I thinke brothe [...] Bridges that Titus was ney­ther Archbishop nor Deane of Sarum. But the reason following / prooueth it yet more euident / and that is the ilsample of Archbishop Titus / whome the D. of diuillitie in this 65. page affir­meth to haue beene Arch. of Creet. Nay good M.D / not many Archbishopps in the person of Titus I pray you. Titus was an Euangelist / therefore no Archbishoppe. Yea sayth he / Titus was a very Archbishopp / & there is playne scripture to prooue it / whiche is the subscription of the Epistle to Titus. Whope papist / say the puritans / is that become scripture with you? Why M. Beza hath long since prooued this to be no scripture / but an vncer­taine and false gesse / added by som Scholiast. The reason of Archbishop Ti­tus is no po­pish reason. You know also that your brother Turrian the Iesuit / bringing in this for Scripture / was soundly confuted by M. Sadel / and dare you Deane Iohn / bring this in for Scripture? Yes that I dare (sayth he) and prooue Titus to haue bin an Archbishopp / euen by this reason: because Paul gaue him the authoritie to be the ordinary of all the Bishopps in Creet. And this I prooue / because Creete / where my Lorde Archbishoppe Titus his grace / was Primate and Paltripolitane / had many famous cities in it. This is my very reason / page 65. line 21. and ile stand to it.

Now M. Fickers / parsons and currats / if euer I hard better proofe in my life / I would all dumbe dogges were whipped out of the Churche. Now truely this is sport a­lone. But brother parson Bridges / I praye you tell me / was there canonicall obedience sworne to Archbishopp Titus? What els man. Did they cal him my Lords grace to? Do you dout of it? Did his gentlman Ussher go bare­headed before him? As though he could not be as pope­like and pontificall / as my Lorde of Canterburie. But I [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] hope a pore hedge priest might haue his letters of orders of him / though he would giue no bribes vnto his Secre­torie / cooke / butler / &c. Might he so goodman noddie? Then how should his men I pray you be able to liue? As though bishops should giue their men any wages? Their blessing I trow will serue their men in steed of wages.

In page 66. M. doctor demaundeth a question / & that is / whether one man might not haue diuers of these of­fices and gifts which were in the Apostles time. In deed brother parson / we read of neuer an Apostle that was a nonresident / but of one Iudas / one Simon Magus / and one Diotrephes in all that time. The reason belike was / that men wrought miracles in those dayes / whiche gifte the noble Lords of our cleargie / haue now bestowed vp­on their horses. For in the Aposiles time / a horse vsually caried not aboue one or two men at the most: Or so manie Simonical pro­motion [...]. whereas you know / that Master D. Humffrie / and D. Mathew / had two horses betweene them / that neuer caried vnder 14. men / whensoeuer their masters were on their backes. And our bishopps are so expert in adorning horses with those miraculous giftes / that they are no sooner on their horse backes / then presently the horse whereon they ride / is able to cary as many as either of the 2. former / besides their bootes? 2. or 3. paire of trulling square dice / and so many paire of cards.

Parsou Bridges / page 68. saith / there are more giftes and callings then 4. pastors / doctors / elders and deacons remayning / because sayth he / page 69. the gifts of doing miracles, prophesie, the gifts of healing, diuers among the papists haue and do enioy, and especially, the gift of tongs, not attained vnto by studie, had diuers of them, as Antho­nie, &c. Anthonie among the papistes / had the gifte of tongs without studie: Now what a goodyeare was that Anthonie? The god of the pigs trow ye? In deed master D. quoteth no author for his warraunt / hee is redd you [Page] know in the Legend of lies. There is a book of this name / which M. doc­tor made no they say. There it is: what haue the puritans to doe where he found it? Let thē answere to it. What if he founde it in Hodge his breechs / seeking for Gammer Gurtons needle? Is the reason worse then the rest of his booke / because it is without authoritie.

As for the matter contayned in the 70.71.72. pages / M. D. confirmeth it by the authoritie of a puritane wri­ter / which wrote (as he sayth) A fruitfull sermon vppon the 1. Cor. 12. printed by Robert Walde-graue / 1584. A Sermon vpon the 1. Cor. 12. printed by Robert Walde-graue: say our brethren / why there was neuer any sermon vpon that tert / printed by Robert Walde-graue. M. D. belike meaneth the sermon vpon Rom. 12. Tush brethren what should you tell vs of M.D. meaning / he meaneth the sermon vpon 1. Cor. 12. If you doe not beleeue me / looke the 255. page of his booke / and there you shall see the sermon vpon 1. Cor. 12. twise cited. M.D. if he were more beetleheaded then he is / could not possible misse so often in the naming of the sermon / vpon Rom. 12. which is so commonly knowen. It may be in deede / you neuer saw any sermon extant vpon that text: but I warraunt you Deane Iohn knoweth the way to Salisburie / so doe not many thousands of you puritans. Whye / you neuer sawe the Syriacke Testament translated by Iunius (for that which is abroade / was done by Tremelius alone) but M.D. hath quoted Iunius his Syriack Testament. Why then may he not aswell finde a sermon vpon 1. Cor 12. printed by Robert Walde-graue / as a Syriacke Te­stament of Iunius his trauslation? Now say the puritans what a notorious blocke is this deane / who inasmuch as he hath heard that M. Tremelius / and M. Iunius were ioyned together in the translation of the Syble / thinketh therfore that Iunius translated the Syriack Testament / which was done by Tremelius onely.

For shame my masters deale more charitably / & beare [Page] with the infirmities of your brethren. I grant in deede it was M.D. ouersight / in naming Iunius his Syriacke Testament: and the sermon vpon 1. Cor. 12. in steade of Rom. 12. But what then / should you therefore take him vp for it / as though he were the veriest asse in a countrie. Learned men may easily commit such ouersights / especi­ally quoting authors vpon other mens reportes / as M. D. hath done. But it is no maruell that you deale thus with M. deane / when you dare abuse Antichrist / and say as the author of the Learned Discourse hath done / that this gouernment of yours continued in the Church vntil Antichrist brought in all kinde of false doctrine and con­fusion. For Antichrist / & against the go­uernment of Christ. Naye who there masters mine / quoth M. deane / for these be his owne words / take my reason with you / you slander Antichrist. For

If your gouernment had continued in the Church vntil all kinde of false doctrine came in, This is the D. reason in very deede. it had beene exercised without interruption vntill this day (especially vntill the yeare 1587. wherein you made this booke) For I doubt me whether all kinde of false doctrine hath bene yet sow­en. But your gouernement hath beene interrupted long since. Therefore you slander Antichriste.

They slander him in deed / Iohn O Sarum / if they say that hee brought in all kinde of false doctrine. And you haue neuer prooued proposition better in your life / then you haue prooued this. For any man that will read your book / or Iohn Whit gifts / wil say that Antichrist broght not in all kinde of false doctrine / if he had / your booke I am sure / had not bene sold for 7. shillings as it is. In the 78. page / M. D. sheweth that the office of Archbishops / and Lord bishops / are in nature pastorall / though in dig­nitie they are of another office and ministerie. And what say you to that brethren? Euen this say they. In dignitie they are popes / in office proud prelats / and in ministerie / plain dumb dogs for the most part. This is proued / hath [Page] bene prooued / and will be prooued / to the proudest of the Bishops teeth / if they doe dispute with vs in these points. I would wish you / my puritan masters / to keepe you wel while you are well. It may bee you shall answer this sau­cines of yours / to offer disputation to my lords grace / be­fore the high commissionrs. Master D. hath confuted all the packe of you. In the 82. page / by a tale or 2. of a Foxe tayl / & another of the Asse / loaden with spunges / page 83. From the 90. page / to the end of the book / he goeth so rea­dely to worke about the office of the ciuil magistrate / that I maruel that men wil not say / that he deserueth to be ca­sed in a good moatley clockbagg for his labor. In the 93. page / he proueth that no man ought to direct the magi­strate in any thing. Simply Ile be sworn thou gost simply to worke For saith he / brethren I goe plainly / & simply to worke / he that directeth he gouerneth. Alas the day brother (cloister master) doe the puritans say in deed / that the magistrate should be directed by any within his owne dominions. Belike then if they shoulde finde a magistrat out of his way / they would goe about to direct him / woulde they? And that in his owne dominions to? Whie brother Bridges can this stand with the dutie of a good subiect? Why? He that directeth he gouerneth. I perceiue it is time that such fellowes weare looked vnto. We should neuer haue done with them I perceiue / if wee should stil stand answering their absurde fansies. By this time I hope / they see their folly. They haue beene suffici­ently confuted / or else let Andrewe ambo iudge betwene you / he is an indifferent man. Docter Porn [...] From the 99. page vnto the 130. iust 31. pages / at which game O the cardes / D. Red­man Archdecon of Canterbury is very good / besides his rare skill in iuglinge / & to the end of this book / they agree with you in any thing / that lawfully belongeth to the of­fice of the ciuil magistrate.

Howe say you now M. cuntry Parsons & Fickers. Are you not by this time able to withstande the cauells of the [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] puritanes. Doe you not see vpon what good grounde our Church gouernement and my I. of Canterburies chaier is bullt? I would you did else. And let the learned reader iudg whether other men cannot play the ignorant sots as well as you brother Bridges. Tush / Tushe / I would not haue you claime all the skill / in Barbarismes and Sole­cismes vnto your self. Other men can behaue them selues with commendations that way as well as you / thoughe in deed not so naturally I graunt. Farwell sweete Doc­tor / and make much of the courtier Martin.