A RELECTION OF CERTAINE AVTHORS That are pretended to disauow THE CHVRCHES INFALLIBILITIE IN HER GENERALL DECREES OF FAITH.

BY F. E.

Acts 15. It hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to vs.

AT DOWAY By the widdow of MARK WYON at the golden Phoenix. 1635.

TO THE RIGHT-WORSHIPFVLL MY WORTHIE FREIND M. S. N.

MVCH HONOVRED SIR

WHEN I recea­ued from you the last rich token, I pro­mised to re­turne a letter full of thanks. But being then vpon a iour­ney, [Page] found not meanes to send; and so failed in my du­tie. Whereby my obligation was doubled: to pay the debt, that first; and then, to satis­fie for the fault. In dischar­ge of both which, if you please to accept of these few printed leaues, you shall oblige anewe

Your thankfull freind and ser­uant F. E.

To M. S. A.

SIR

WHen a doubt is pro­posed out of a desire to knowe the truth, I must not (being cal­led vpon) be wanting to pro­fesse what I haue learned and do beleeue: but if it comes out of a curious humor of contra­dicting, I can dispose of my time better then to spend it in disputes. What your mind is, you reserue as your secret; yet not so secret neither but that I perceaue something of it. Your deliberation, might I be of [Page] your counsell, should quicklie be concluded.

He takes the safe way that followes the direction of the Church. That Church I mea­ne, which all times could point at; and which all Hereticks haue opposed. You know that nei­ther Mar. vlt. Ioan. 3. Apoc. 21. Tim. 3. Ga­lat. 5. vide S. Aug. li. 4. con. Donat Hereticks nor 1. Cor. 12 Col. 2. Gal. 5. Vide S. Aug. Ep. 152. & de vnit. Eccl. c. 4. Firmissimè tene & nullatenus dubites, non so­lum omnes Pa­ganos, sed etiam omnes Iudaos, Haereticos, atque Schismaticos, qui extra Eccle­siam Catholicā praesentem finiūt vitam, in ignem aternum ituros, qui paratus est diabolo & an­gelis eius. S. Fulg. de Fide ad Pet. c. 38. inter Op. S. Aug. t. 3. Of the grieuous­nes of the cri­me of Schis­me see S. Aug. li. 2. contra Donatistas. Schis­matiks (one wanting charitie, the other faith too,) be in state of saluation. These, and such like things, you can weigh, your self. And, where the min­de is not ill disposed, the reso­lution is most easie. Prudence neuer sticks at such a matter.

If your hinderance be that onlie which is insinuated, I shall willinglie shew you how you may remoue it. Go the Ca­tholike waie: that, is secure. Seeke no by-waies.

Suppose you might be ma­de Arch-bishop of Canterbu­rie, [Page] vpon condition that you would go to Lābeth on foote; and that there were some dan­ger, yet no great dāger neither, of loosing your purse (without further harme) if you tooke the common way ouer the bridge. Would you stay, till winter, that you might go wi­thout that difficultie, in grea­ter perill: and then, hearing Themse to be frozen, presen­tlie (before they durst venture who told you so,) take your iourney ouer the ice? A wise man would not vēture his life and all, in that manner; to saue two or three, ten or twē ­tie peices: being presentlie to receaue a thousand if he came to Lambeth safe, and euer af­ter to liue in great aboundan­ce. Yet your case is more des­perate. You know that in hea­uen you shall receaue at your [Page] entrance the possession of an eternall kingdome, with a cro­wne of glorie amongst Angels in immortalitie. The common way thither is the Catholike, which way if you take, you cō ­ceaue the danger of being a little taxed in your purse; and you think you heare some tell you, there is an other waie, but nice and ticklish: wherein those who speak, themselues durst not venture; because if it miscarrie, soule and bodie and Heauen and all, is lost, by a fault of Quisquis ab hac Catholica Ecclesia fuerit separatus, quā ­tumlibet lauda­biliter se viuere existimet, hoc solo scelere quod à Christi vnita­te disiunctus est, non habebit vitam; sed ira Dei maret super eum. S. August. Epist. [...]52. Schisme, which o­pens into a downefall that ends not but (where there is no end at all) in Hell.

To venture your bodie ouer a deepe riuer vpon a bridge of thinne brittle glasse, and to venture your soule ouer Hell­mouth vpon a ticklish opi­nion, which is worse? He that [Page] loueth danger (the Scripture saith) shall perish in it. Eccles. [...]. What speake I of an opinion? When your imagination doth cease from working, no bridge at all appeares: you are but in a dreame.

But, were there two or three, who did (against the rest, and against the knowne practice of the Church,) a­uouch what you pretend, would you venture your soule (whilst worlds of learned men bid you take heed) vpon their word? Perpetuall torment a­mong the damned spirits, is a matter of that horrour, that wisedome would seeke the safest waie to decline it: and he that could see heauen a far of, with those inexplicable [...]oyes that are in it, would think on nothing els but the securest way thither; and feare nothing [Page] more then to misse it.

Were you to purchase a tem­porall estate or inheritance for your child, you would not venture your mony vpon a ti­tle, which the practice of the kingdome doth dislike and which Lawiers commonlie say is naught; though two or three should tell you that it were a good title: much lesse in securing to your owne soule an eternall inheritance, should you be contented to re­lie vpon the Authoritie of two or three (were there such) the rest, with the generall Spirit Gods people, contradicting and anathematizing such as proceede in that manner.

That Catholikes are against you, generallie, in this point [...] you know. They communi­cate not with those who d [...] openlie oppose themselues to [Page] the decrees of Councels oe­cumenicall. The Councels themselues excommunicate and anathematize them also. And, as manie graue Prelates and learned Deuines as euer esteemed their authoritie suf­ficient to determine a Contro­uersie and oblige men to con­forme their iudgment there­vnto, (who be innumerable,) so manie do counsell you not to trust vnto these fewe, (sup­pose you found them;) telling you that if you do you for­faite heauen.

When a fewe, reputed Schol­lers, (were they many, were it a whole Nation,) hold a te­net that is against the Church, their Authoritie doth not ma­ke it Probabilia sunt quae vidētur om­nibus, aut pluri­mis aut sapienti­bus; & his vel omnibus, velplu­rimis, vel maxi­mè familiaribus & probatis. A­rist. li. 1. To­pic. c. 1. Nonom­ne quod videtur probabile, est pro­babile. Ibidem. probable. The truth of her assertions dependeth not vppon the approbation of euerie one that is in her Com­munion: [Page] Much lesse, of others. The Pastors are to teach; and if some of them do chance to for­goe the truth and leaue it, there is power in the You remem­ber the practice of the Church in her first Councells, a­gainst Arians, Nestorians, &c. rest to define the matter and condemne thē. Docete. Matt. vlt. This Catholikes do know; they be grounded; they take the secure way.

The way which you take is temerarious: it is the same which Heresie doth vsuallie take to spred it self. And in ma­king choise of it you shew in your self the disposition of a Sectarie. The Sectarie findes an opinion auouched by two or three, against the common, and against the Spirit of the Church generallie: yet, be­cause it likes him, (for that it is easier to be conceaued, or more agreeable to some phan­tasie that he hath, or better suting to the libertie which [Page] he could wish,) he is cōtent to [...]hink the authoritie of those [...]o or three (though the [...]st contradict) sufficient to [...]ake is probable: and then, iud­ [...]ng of the reasons and moti­ [...]es which they bring, as his [...]fections incline him, he thinks [...] at last, certaine. So did the [...]rians; depending vpon the [...]uthoritie, first of their lea­ [...]ers; and then deeming their [...]otiue (as that, pater maior me [...]) to be manifestlie against the Church, and for them. Neither be the Leaders them­selues (Arch-heretickes) wi­ [...]out pretence of authoritie; they cite the Fortasse ali­quisinterroget, An & Haeretici, diuinae Scriptu­rae testimonijs vtantur? Vtun­tur planè, & vehemēter qui­dem; nam vi­deas eos volate per singulaquae que sanctae le­gis volumina: per Moysi, per Regum volu­mina, per Psal­mos, per Apo­stolos, per E­uangelia, per Prophetas. Si­ue enim apud suos, siue alie­nos; siue priua­tim, siue pu­blice; siue in sermonibus, si­ue in libris; siue in conuiuijs, siue in plateis: nihil vnquam paenè de suo proferūt, quod non etiam Scri­pturae verb [...]s adumbrare co­nentur. Vinc. li­rin. c. 35. Si quis interroget quē ­piam Haere [...] ­corum sibi talia persuadentem, vnde probas, vnde doces, quod Ecclesiae Catholicae Vni­uersalem & an­tiquam fidem dimittere de­beam? Statim ille mille testi­monia, mille exempla, mille authoritates parat, de lege, de psalmis, de apostolis, de prophetis; qui­bus nouo & ma­lo more inter­pretatis, ex ar­ce Catholica in Haereseôs bara­thrum infoelix anima praecipi­tetur. Idem c. 37. vbi ostendit eos à diabolo modū istum didicisse; Scriptum est e­nim. Scriptures, [...]d gleane obscure speaches [...]t of auncient, good writers, which in shewe do make for them.

When a man once takes this [...]ay, he squares out his Reli­gion [Page] to himself; or rather he runnes out of all: from one thing to another, from more to fewer points or articles from that he calls probable to lesse and yet lesse and lesse pro­bable; till at last is he findes himself, most certainlie, in Hell. Faith is a firme assent but his, (if well examined) is not so. It is not diuine faith; he doth but flatter himself and deceaue others, with a shadow If two or three tell him that [...] Councell may mistake (though the rest auouch the contrarie, he is content to think it may and heereupon, presentlie doubts of all, that is so defined Then further, proceeding i [...] the same (sillie) motiue; if th [...] whole Church auouch a thing yet so, as some two or three at some time or other, held th [...] contrarie; he will not belee [...] [Page] the Church neither, No, nor the Apostles, if any tell him they might erre. A Rainolds, a Whittakers authoritie, makes the contrarie to him probable; and by that time he hath read their bookes, he thinkes him­self certaine of it. But in the meane while, where is the faith of such a man? where­vnto doth he giue a firme as­sent? To the Scriptures? No: their authoritie who denied them, makes him doubt. To the Creed? nor so; the autho­ritie of two or three serues his turne, and there is nothing in the Creede that more then two or three haue not refused. Arianisme, Nestorianisme, Sa­bellianisme, Eutichianisme, Pe­lagianisme, Lutheranisme, Swin­glianisme, all great Heresies haue had multitudes of abbet­ [...]ors; whereas two or three, ser­ue [Page] his turne. Where then is his religion? in his mouth perad­uenture: but in his heart, well examined, there is none.

Others there be, not so rea­die to relie indifferentlie vpon the Authoritie of any what­soeuer esteemed learned; but determined extreamelie vnto one. The Puritan for example, to Iohn Caluin; whom he pre­fers before the rest all toge­ther. Wherein he shewes him­self as extrauagantlie peccant against the light of nature as the former. Amōgst the many principes or Axiomes which reason dictates to the Prudent, this is one, that, in matters of beleefe the greatest Authori­tie must sway our vnderstan­ding. He will not denie that this is true, he might as well denie the sunne shines at mid­daie; but his manner of pro­ceeding [Page] doth inuolue a deniall of it. The authoritie of a Coun­cell entirelie oecumenicall, is greater then the Authoritie of one single man. The greatest [...]chollers haue euer stooped to [...]: yet the Puritan rather be­leeues Caluin, then such a Councell. Yea rather, then all the knowne Churches in the world, though Though so­me now dissēt, as you for ex­ample, yet the­se points haue had the consent of all Christian Churches as many as belee­ued that our B. Sauiour had true flesh and blood. consenting. As, in the matter of the Masse, vnbloodie Sacrifice, reall Pre­sence. And what way is there, think you, to deale with such a man? or to what end is it to dispute with him? If you cite Scripture, he will rather take the comment of his Master Iohn, then the definition and tradition howeuer auncient, of the whole Church, deliue­ring the sence of it. It is so in the point of the Reall presence. And, in admitting the Bookes of [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] Scripture too, he will be his owne chooser; and will iudge, himself, which is good and sound and which ought to be discarded.

Vide disput. de Eccles pag. 304.But who shall decide the cō ­trouersie betwixt the Church and him, touching the meaning of that Scripture which he pleaseth to let passe for cur­rant? The Spirit, no doubt. But, in whom? in the Church or the vniuersitie of beleeuers be­fore his time? Not so. They might erre he thinkes; and so might all the Councells of Bis­hops that euer were; and all the Pastors of the world, though consenting; they might all, he thinks, be deceaued. Where then speakes the Iudge he meanes to stand to, when the Controuersie is about the sence of Scripture, or about the sinceritie of the letter? in whom [Page] speakes the Spirit which he will permit to be his Master? In Master Iohn. So he beleeues; rather thē he will beleeue that he speaketh in the Church.

Now tell me, is not this a strange manner of proceeding in matters appertaining to our eternall estate? to challeng to ones self, or his Master Iohn, au­thoritie to teach and interprete Scripture, and to denie it to the whole Senate of Catholike Bis­hops and Pastors, whom God hath giuen to teach diuine doctrine, and to keepe the Church from wauering in such matters? and not onlie to them, Ephes. 4 in what age soeuer, but abso­lutelie to the Church, without exempting the first Disciples, and Apostles? These for sooth, be the men that in the pulpits crie so lowde, who disestee­ming the whole world besides, [Page] obtrude themselues as masters of mankind, each an Oracle.

I know you wash your hands; your words condemne their insolencie: you will not seeme to participate of their fault. But what is in your heart? Are not you too, one of those that abbet a priuate judgment against a publike?

You plead against the po­wer of the Church to determi­ne matter of faith in her gene­rall assemblies; that I see. And I know too, that you punish men for not conforming themselues to the determinations of one not generall. Reconcile these if you can. And tell me, if I be not bound to conforme my judgment to the judgment of a Councell when it is per­fectlie oecumenicall, what shall binde me to conforme it vnto one that is onelie Nationall? if [Page] the Decrees of the whole Church may be lawfullie refused, what obligeth me in conscience and before God to receaue the De­crees of your Conuocation? Is euerie sub­iect bound to be of his Prin­ces Religion? or is it lawfull for him to subscri­be against that he knowes to be the truth? Is England, since you began to teach, growne bigger then all the world? is a part (is was not of old so,) bigger then the whole?

In way of excuse for your not subscribing to decrees oecu­menicall, you plead the Autho­ritie of some fewe men; (how vniustlie, heareafter it will ap­peare;) and shall not the Au­thoritie of farre more, and tho­se great Schollers, excuse vs in conscience for not subscri­bing to your priuate Articles wherein be many things gene­rallie condemned in former ages? To giue instance in one point, that containes many. In your 23. article you determine [Page] thus, The Sacrifices of Masses in the which, was commonlie said that the Priests did offer Christ for the quick and the dead, to haue remission of paine or guilt, were blasphemous fables and dangerous deceits. So you. Yet was this Sacrifice, frequented Missa abo­minatio in cali­ce aureo propina­ta, omnes reges terra & populos à summo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit, vt proram & pup­pim suae salutis in hac vna vo­ragine statue­rint. Caluin. Instit. li. 4. c. 18. See the Pro­test. Apol. tract. 3. Sect. 1. and in the Conclu­sion; to the Iudges; Sect. 6. & 10. generallie, when Luther began to make your Schisme. It was auowed in the S. Iren. li. 4. c. 32. Noui testamenti Nouam docuit obla­tionem, quam Ecclesia ab Apostolis accipiens in vniuerso mundo offert Deo. Concil. Nicenum 1. can 14. S. Cyrill. & cum eo Concil. Ephes. in Anathem. 11. S. Augu. Conc. 1. in Psalm. 33. Nondum erat sacrificium Corporis & San­guinis Domini quod nunc diffusum est toto orbe terrarum. S. Ambros. de Sacram. li. 4. & 5 S. Cyrill. Catech. myst. 5 S. Chrysost. lib. 3. & 6. de Sacerdotio, & Hom. 17. in Epist. ad Hebraeos. His Liturgie is yet extant. And so is S. Ba­sils too. S. Gregor. Nyssen. Hom. 1. de Resurr. Praeoccupat impetum violentum, ac sese in oblationem & victimam offert pro nobis Sacerdes simul & agnus Dei. Vide Disp. li. 5 c. 9 & Coccium in Thesanro, t 2. li. 6. a. 4. ti­mes primitiue. And our Sa­uiours This is my bodie which is broken for you. This is the blood of the new testament which is shed for you. words, registred in [Page] the 1. Cor. 11. Matt. 26. That it was offered for the quick and the dead, it is also testified abundantlie. S. Epiphan. Haeres. 75 where he saith also the Church receaued it by tradition. S. Cyrill. Cathec 5. Pro omnibus oramus qui ante nos vita functi sunt, maximum credentes animarum iuuamen pro quibus offertur obsecratio sancti illius & tremendi quod ante nos iacet Sacrificij. S. Chrysost. Homil. 3 in Epist. ad Phil. Non frustra hac ab Apostolis sunt legibus constituta vt in ve­nerandis inquam atque horrisicis mysterijs memoria corum fiat qui decesserunt, nouerant hinc multum ad illos lucri accedere, multum vtilitatis. S. August. in Enchirid. ad Laurent. c. 110. lib. de cura pro mort. c. 1. &c. 4. Non sunt praetermittenda supplicationes pro Spiritibus mortuorum, vt quibus ad ista desunt parentes aut filij, ab vna is exhibeatur [...]ia matre Eccle­sia. Lib. 9. Confess. c. 13. Meminerint ad altare tuum Monica famulae tuae cum Patritio quondam eius coniuge, &c. S. Ioan. Damasc. Orat. quod defuncti Missis inuentur. Quod qui­dem citra vllam controuersiam Catholica & Apostolica Ecclesia sine vlla ambiguitate retinet &c. Vt consuetudinis testem [...]llum cito. The like appeares by the Liturgies. Where ob­serue that I reflect preciselie, vpon the termes of your Ar­ticle, which condemneth vnbloodie Sacrifice offered by the Priest for the Quick and the Dead to haue remission of paine or guilt. If this be a blasphemous fable, the whole world was in Errour. So commonlie was it said and estee­med lawfull; and so vniuersallie frequented See further Gualterius his Chronographicall table, verit. decima. The Protestants Apol. tract. 1. Sect. 3. subd. 4. and Sect. 7. subd. 6. The Conference of Cath. and Prot. doct. li. 2. c. 24. angl. Bible, being vnderstood in their natiue, proper sence, do What necessitie there is to enquire into the true sen­ce of these words (This is my bodie) will best appeare in the after-examination of the diuers consequences of your owne sence, to wit, your doctrine of transsubstantiation, corporall and materiall presence, propitiatorie sacrifice, and proper adoration: all which depend vpon your Romish exposition of the former words of Christ. The issue then w [...]ll be this, that if the words be certainelie true in a pro­per and litterall sence, then wee are to yeild to you the whole cause. Morton Instit. of Masse. li. 2. c. 1. I omit to note how Luther who did impugne the Sacrifice of Mas­se, had his instructions from the Deuil. as doth appeare still by his owne booke de Missa Priuata, p. 228 Ego co­ram vobis And p. 230 [...]. [...]n summa. Edit. Wittemb. an­no. 1558. where he puts d [...]wne the Deuils arguments; a­mongst which one is against vnbloodie Sacrifice; Contra institutionem Christi, Missa vsus es pro Sacrificio, &c. §. quarto. confessedlie make for, and confirme it. Now, should wee subscribe to your Article, wee should contradict all this. [Page] Wee should contradict open Scripture, interpreted by the whole Christian world, and by the And this Spi­rit is the Holie Ghost, Ioh. 14. & 16. Spirit in it. And whilst you sollicite vs so to do, what do you but abbet a priuate Spi­rit? and this too, importunelie, vnseasonablie; then, when you denie to the whole Church power to define the [Page] veritie, euen of this cause; or to declare the sence of Scripture touching it, in her Councels oecumenicall.

I am not disposed to beleeue that a part is greater thē the whole. The Authoritie of England al­so before Cal­uin was borne, beleeued the Sacrifice of the masse; and offe­red it for the quick and the deade. See the Prudentiall Bal­lance. all Natiōs Christian, moues me more then the Authoritie of one Other Pro­testants admit not your Con­fession. onlie, now deuided and apart. Neither can I be perswaded that corpus doth signifie a signe or figure onlie; or that bread properlie, was crucified for my sinnes. I am not wiser then heeretofore men haue beene; not wiser then the Church. I reuerence her decrees, and am readie to be directed by her. Whether those you pretend vnto, were so too, will ap­peare in the discussion of the Controuersie wee now deale [...]n, which doth concerne the generall Councells wherein [Page] she declares herself.

Of such Councels, your fel­lowes haue questioned many things: as first, who hath po­wer to call them? secondlie, what persōs are to be in them? thirdlie, who is to preside? Fourthlie, whether they be in­fallible in their decrees? fiftlie which be such Councels? The Controuersie wee are to spea­ke of is none of these; but on­lie what learned men, Catho­likes, haue deliuered & taught about the infallibitie of a Coū ­cell, supposing it be intirelie oecumenicall: which suppo­sition being premised, The four first, your selues ho­nour with the title of oecu­menicall. [and it is confessedlie a possible sup­position,] the Question is this, Whether any Deuines of the Ca­tholike communion, haue openlie and to the knowledge of those to whom it appertained to looke vn­to the Church, auouched and [Page] maintained of Councels entirelie [...]ecumenicall, such as were generall [...]nd approued, that in decrees of Faith, they might mistake and [...]rre? Wee dispute not, you and [...], now, whether this, or that, Councell, be such a Councell. That is another matter. Nor, whether such a Councell [sup­ [...]ose it be, and define,] be infal­ [...]ble. But; what, men, Catho­ [...]ike Deuines, haue auerred [...]ouching the priuiledge of a Councell generall, entire, and [...]pproued.

The termes of the Question [...]e remarkable. Councels; not whatsoeuer; but, generall and [...]pproued, or entirelie oecume­ [...]icall. Deuines of the Catholike [...]ommunion; not Hereticks. Wee know that Hereticks re­ [...]use entire approued Councels. Matters of Faith; not matters [...]f Fact. Auouched openlie; the [Page] knowledge of the cause goes be­fore the sentence of the iudge.

Your pretence is that some Deuines haue auouched their fallibilitie in matter and man­ner aboue specified in the Quae­re. Which if it were true, [that I note this by the way,] the tenet of their Infallibilitie would notwithstanding, continue fir­me. The Church doth not at all times punish what euer she doth abhorre: and negligence of discipline in a Superiour, is a distinct thing from the lawes or principles of a communitie Much lesse could it be ouertur­ned by their doubtfull speaches if any could be found: and least of all by obscure passages. Dark and hard speaches may be found in Vide S. Hie­ron. Apolog. adu. Ruf. li. 2. Fieri potest vt— vel certè ante­quam in Alex­andria quasi dae­monium meri­dianum Arius nasceretur, inno­center quaedam & minus cautè loqun [...]i sunt, & quae non possint peruersarum ho­minum calum­niam declinare. vide S. Aug. de Praedest. Sanct. c. 14. Auncient Writers, that seeme to make agains [...] such tenets of Religion as you call fundamentall; and some [Page] Fathers haue doubted of, some [...]aue denied, Euseb. Hist. Eccles. li. 3. c. 19. Origenes a­pud eundem li. 6. c. 19. S. Hie­ron. de Script. Eccles. & in Ep. ad Dard. Bilson Suru. p. 664. See the Disp. pag. 431. bookes of Scri­ [...]ture, which all now beleeue [...]o be Canonicall; wherefore if [...] this matter of Councels-au­ [...]oritie the like should haue [...]appened, the tenet of Assistan­ [...]e giuen to them in their de­ [...]rees of faith, being grounded [...] Scripture, and hauing for it [...] more euident perpetuall tradi­ [...]on then you can shew for di­ [...]ers parts of Scripture which [...]ou do beleeue to be diuine, [...]ere still (euen by you in like [...]anner] to be admitted and [...]aintained: vnles you think it [...]wfull to reiect those Books al­ [...], because once doubted of or [...]enied; and neuer to beleeue [...]at, which might with a pre­ [...]nce of authoritie, be oppo­ [...]d or contradicted.

Thus I could answer, and [...]are the labour to talke fur­ther [Page] of the matter: Vide S. Aug. li. 2. contra Donat. c. 5. but becaus [...] you wrong some that be lea [...] ned worthie Authors, and some Fathers too; least you fin [...] adherents that will beleeu [...] you [to the preiudice of the [...] selues, and others] vpon yo [...] bare word, when they s [...] none contradict and confu [...] that you boast of, I will suru [...] the citations.

Our dispute in this matte [...] is to be of Catholikes; it is [as b [...] fore was noted] impertine [...] to talke of others; and of suc [...] as in plaine termes haue auouch [...] and maintained what you pr [...] tend they did. Wee know th [...] some haue beene mistaken [...] great matters, and yet cont [...] nued in the Church, either b [...] cause the thing was not suff [...] cientlie brought to light, [ [...] matters appertaining to diuin [...] faith be not at all times equa [...] lie [Page] proposed) or because they were readie to submit themsel­ues, As in the Que­stiōs of the Ca­non of Scripture, of Baptisme gi­uen by Hereticks, &c. and conforme their iud­gment, as soone as the Church declared her self. Wee know [...]oo, that diuers haue beene tempted in their faith; and of these, some haue falne into Heresie or Atheisme, wherof we haue examples in Luthers preach; and before, in all ages, [...]uen the primitiue. Others ha­ [...]e discouered their tempta­ [...]ions, with all the motions of [...]heir vnderstanding, to and [...]ro: concealing onlie the finall [...]esolution or euent. Of which [...]nfirmitie, some, (and not wi­ [...]hout scandall) haue exhibited [...]hemselues by their writings, [...]ublicke spectacles to the [...]orld. With those you and [...] need not meddle; being to [...]peake of such onlie (if any can [...]e found,) as haue openlie de­nied, [Page] the infallibilitie aboue specified, and yet enioyed the communion of the Church, notwithstanding such a knowne deniall.

She doth not thrust out of her communion, one, who doth onlie propose his doubtes, to be resolued; nor yet, if by way of disputation, he venters to far, but without auouching, especiallie when this is donne with submission to her iudgment: or, if he so conceale his mind, or vtter himself so, that no­thing can be directlie proued a­gainst him. Secret and concea­led thoughts, she cannot look into. Euerie one is to be presu­med good, vnles the contrarie may be proued. As many as haue exteriorlie communica­ted with the Church, are law­fullie presumed to haue recea­ued her tenets, vnles it be ma­de [Page] appeare otherwise.

Though it be true that so­me who liue amongst vs o­ [...]herwhile, be not of vs. Some [...]o beare themselues for Ca­ [...]holikes, who be in their hear­ [...]es Atheistes, or Heretikes. There be, no doubt, Ipse Satanas transfigurat se in Angelum lu­cis. Non est ergo magnum si mi­nistri eius trans­figurentur velut ministri iustitia. 2. Corint. 11. Nonne ego vos duodecim elegi: & ex vobis v­nus diabolus est? Ioan. 6. rauening wolues in sheeps-clothing so­me; and the Pastors driue them [...]ot away, because they know [...]hem not. The Disciples knew [...]ot that one in the companie was a Deuil. Wee are heere to [...]reat of things manifest; and to [...]he Church; and so farre, that [...]hey might be legallie proued a­gainst the men when they we­ [...]e [...]e liuing, and exteriorlie en­ [...]oyed the benefit of Commu­ [...]ion: or, are now to be seene [...] their books, (bookes not [...]ensured,) so cleerlie that it is [...]nexcusablie vndeniable. Your [...]elf, I suppose, would require [Page] no lesse euidence to condemne a man (and in so great a mat­ter,) after death when he can speake no more for himself, then was necessarie to Reus non antè condem­nandus est quā si idoneis testi­bus, vel aper­tissimis docu­mentis, vel in­dicijs indubi­tatis & luce clarioribus cō ­uict is fuerit; aut propria cōfessione, &c. Vide legem fi C. de Probationibus. & l. Qui sententiam 16. C. de poe [...]. Ne­q [...]e manifestò constet incur­risse in senten­tiam excomun: quod nullo modo potest occultari, aut per aliquod re [...] edium iur [...]s excusari: &c. Extra. Mart V. Adeu [...]anda. con­demne him when he was a­liue.

To vndertake this Question in the latitude that I do, is mo­re then was necessarie for the defence of a generall tradition [...] more then can be showne for di­uers partes of the New testamen [...] by you receaued: but the powe [...] of the veritie will appeare th [...] better when it is found to hau [...] bene so vniuersallie manifest and so commonlie receaued that none, by the Church esteemed Orthodoxe in their [...] mes, haue beene euer known [...] (though there were still occasion to looke vpon the authoritie of such Councels) openl [...] to contradict it and auouch th [...] [Page] contrarie. Neither could I well refuse (it is a duetie in him that hath reaped benifit by their [...]abours) to come abroad, and defend the iust honour of Per­ [...]ons wrongd, who be not a­ [...]iue now to maintaine their owne credit.

APPROBATIO.

IN hoc libro, cui titulus A Relectiō &c. nihil est fidei Catholicae, aut bo­ [...]s moribus contrarium, sed multa quae [...]eritatem Catholicam confirmant. Qua­ [...]opter dignum censui, qui praelo com­ [...]ittatur. Actum Duaci 22. Maij 1635.

GEORGIVS COLVENERIVS S. Theol. Doctor, & eiusdem re­gius ordinariusque Professor, Collegiatae Ecclesiae S. Petri Praepositus, Vniuersitatis Dua­censis Cancellarius, & librorum Censor.

Ex Disput. li. 4. c. 5. pag. 377.

OFfer not to cite any knowne Schismatike, whose opinion is generallie by all Deui [...]e [...] reiected; cite no booke but what is at least tole­rated in the Church: and haue a care you proue that the man whom you cite, doth, himsef, directlie and openlie, asseuere and affirme the thing in Question. Because it were but losse of time to speake of others: such as either had their wri­tings censured when they came to be knowne; or durst not openlie auouch what they would, to you, seeme to say. There are degrees in leauing the communion of the Church; and the same partie, at one time may be in it; and at other ti­me, either out; or in such an errour, as, if obsti­nacie were added to it, would take him out. Nei­ther can the subtile dealing of any discontented person, if he chance to step ouer shoes, preiud [...] ­ce our cause, or be taken for the tenet of the Church, vnles the Church approue it: and error it neuer did or will approue. So there, by way [...] preuention; howbeit you were not pleased to take notice of it And in the end of the leafe are cited some [...] Ockams words, Whose authoritie you scan first; a [...] so will I, for a reason (not yours) Which Will quickl [...] show it self.

THE QVESTION. Whether any Deuines of the Catholike Communion, haue openly and to the knowledge of those to whom it apper­tained to looke vnto the Church, a­uouched and maintained of Councels entirelie oecumenicall, such as were generall and approued, that in De­crees of Faith, they might mistake and erre?

YOV haue vndertaken the Affirmatiue and will be Plaintiff. Your instance is in Austen, Vincentius Lirinensis, Atha­nasius, amongst the Auncient: and in O [...]kam and Waldensis amongst the later. To the same purpose others do cite Cameracensis, Panormi­ [...] Stapleton, Cusanus, Clemangis, and Canus, and [Page 2] Baro who professedlie disputes the matter, ioynes Optatus and Antoninus.

Franciscus Picus is alleaged some where too by the said Minister, reciting the Opinions of some of these men. What Councels he speakes of, I do not intend to dispute: being to looke into the Authors them selues; and out of their owne Wri­tings; not out of other mens, to learne their mind.

You will not be displeased if I put the places downe as Baro cites them: that such as haue hi [...] booke, which is publike, may compare, and iudge [...] as they see cause.

§. I.

1. Ockam (in a booke of his that is prohibited) saies that some Christians, comprehending Hereticks vnder the name, seeme to think generall Councels, some, might erre. 2. F [...] brings in behalf of those men, an argument [...] proue it: which argument is manifestlie de [...] cient. In like manner he brings arguments proue that which he confesseth to be false; as thought this also to be. 3. He recites an op [...] nion whereof he saies he knew no abbettor, th [...] speakes doubtfullie of the manner of assistin [...] [Page 3] [...] and himself auoucheth the Authoritie of sin­cere generall Councels. He toucheth obiter the question, who doth approue and how, and who declares them to be generall. 4. His pro­ceedings in this worke discommended.

QVia omnes Christiani sentire videntur quod tota multitu­do Christianorum haereticari non potest; quidam autem secundò quod nec Concilium generale: aliqui verò tertiò quod nec Rom. Ecclesia: nonnulli autem quartò quod nec Collegium Cardinalium: aliqui verò quintò quod nec etiam Papa potest hatetica pollui prauitate. Ideo de istis quinque quid sentiant Christiani cupio vt mihi reueles. Baro. p. 359. ex Ockam, dial. li. 5. c. 1.

1. OCKAM. All Christians doe seeme to thinke that the whole multitude of Christians cānot become heretick: but some (Christians do seeme to thinke) that neither a gene­rall Councell.

Here first is not determined what generall Councells those people meane; whether approued, or not ap­proued by the see Apostolike. Se­ [...]ondly it is not said absolutly that they doe thinke and maintaine that Councells oecumenicall may propo [...]e and teach heresie; but that some [...]oe seeme to thinke that Generall [Page 4] Councels (whether some, or all, is not here expressed) may haereticari, or haeretica prauitate pollui; haereticate, (to keepe his termes) or, be stained with hereticall prauitie. Thirdly it is not expressed who these Christians were; whether Catholikes, or Schis­matickes: And, in case an excōmu­nicated persō (seeking how to main­taine Schismaticall proceedings) in a book not tollerated, but Index lib. prohibit. Conc. Trid. ex­presly forbidden, should, not a­vouch, but seeme to think that Coun­cels, though generall, might erre; this could not make good what yo [...] professe to proue, vzt, that men [...] our Communion, haue, in their curra [...] works, openly denied infallibilitie to the decrees of approued generall Councels. Much lesse can the passa­ge alleaged serue your turne, if the word Christians be not heere taken so strictly as your inference doth sup­pose; but so farre extended that heretickes come vnder the name too; for then it may be true that some Christians doe seeme to thinke so, and ye [...] no Catholikes thinke so: there being other Christians in the world beside [Page 5] Catholikes, euen in his opinion that said, (and was it not the same Quaeso vt mihi reueles, an aliqui sen­tiant quod to­ta multitudo Christianorum valeat haeretica prauitate foe­dari. Mag. Iu­daei, Sarraceni, & etiam Paga­ni firmissimè tenent fidem Christianā esse erroneā. Disc. Non intendo quaerere de illis sed de Christianis; sub Chri­stianis etiam Haereticos comprehendendo. Mag. Nescio ali­quem Christianum qui hoc teueat. Ockam. dialog. par. 1. li. 5 c. 35. Ockam thinke you) that vnder the name of Christians he did also compre­hend heretikes: who desired also in this Dialogue to heare the contrarie Opinions, of whomsoeuer, Catholikes, or Heretikes; yea and sometimes others, [...]hat no Nolo vt quod tenes in mente, reueles: sed respōsiones aliquas quae cogitari vel teneri potuerint à quocumque, non differas recitate &c. sententias contrarias quorumcumque Catholicorum & Haereticorum, & interdum alia quae à nullo Christiano tenentur, licet possint habere Catholi­cos & Haereticos defendentes, te desidero recitare: sic enim multiplicius & efficacius exercitabimus studiorum ingenia. Idem c. 34. Christians hold. This for your argument, of omnes and quidam Christiani, some Christians and all Christians.

VNa sola est Ecclesia militans quae contra fidem errare non potest, quia de sola vniuersali militante inuenitur in Scri­pturis authenticis quod errare non potest. Concilium autem ge­nerale licet sit pars Ecclesiae militantis vniuersalis tamen non est Ecclesia vniuersalis. Igitur temerarium est dicere quod Conci­lium generale contra fidem errare non potest. Baro. p. 361. ex Ockam. dial.

[Page 6]2. THe next thing obiected is an argument of those some Chri­stians, whereby they imagined that perhaps the thing which they did seeme to thinke might be proued; The vniuersall diffused Church onlie i [...] vnerrable: but a generall Councell i [...] not the vniuersall diffused Church Ergo. In which argument the propo­sition or is Maior false, as our Deui­nes doe proue by playne testimonie [...] of scripture; and our aduersaries [...] necessitie must acknowledg a [...] much, vnles they will oppose them selues to the Apostles and Father and Pastors of the Church, all together. For, if onely the Symbolica [...] or vniuersall Church, diffuse through all Nations and times, hat [...] the priuiledge of not erring in matter of diuine Faith, it followes, tha [...] the Pastors and Fathers and Apostles, all consenting, are not to b [...] relied on, as a proponent infallible since these be not the whole ( [...] they neuer so glorious a part of the Church vniuersall. Howbeit t [...] Question here is not of that argument or proposition; but, whethe [...] [Page 7] Ockam doth denie the infallibilitie of approued generall Councells; or, whether he doth name, or giue other sufficient notice of, any Catholike that denied it. He names here none [...]t all; neither doth he say that they were Catholikes who seemed to thin­ke &c. and least any should suspect him, he professeth in the person of the other Dialogist to be of the Quamui [...] firmissimè putē quod Conci­lium Generale haereticari non potest, tamen ra­tiones pro as­sertione con­traria libenti a­nimo ausculta­bo. Mag. Quod Concilium ge­nerale possit errare contra fidem rationi­bus & exemplis videtur posse probari. Prima autem ratio ta­lis est. Vna est sola vniuersalis Ecclesia &c. ( vt pag. 5.) Ockam. li. 5. c. 25. argumenti verò solutionem apud ipsum in­nenies cap 9. & habetur inferius ad lit h. §. ad vndecimam. minde that a generall Councell cannot [...]rre in faith.

The like proceeding you may ob­serue in him els-where; as, in the last Chapter of this booke, where he bringes reasons (and leaues them without answer too,) to proue that the whole multitude of Christians hauing vse of reason (pastors and people, men and women) may erre against the faith; and that it is teme­ [...]arious to say they will neuer doe so; though he there confesse this which [...]e goeth about to proue, to Nescio aliquem Christianum qui hoc teneat. Disc. Li­cet nescias Christianum aliquem hoc tenere, tamen pro hoc al quas rationes excogitare nitaris. Mag. Ad quaestio­nem falsam nulla ratio nisi sophistica potest adduci. Disc. Concedo quod pro assertione praedicta nulla valet ratio nisi sophistica allegari; tamen saepè rationes apparentes & difficiles ad soluendum pro falsis inducuntur. Vnde qua­lescunque inuenire coneris. Mag. Quod tota multitudo Christianorum vsum rationis habentium possit contra fidem errare, tali ratione probatur &c. Ockam li. 5. c 35. Ergo temerarium est asserere quod nunquam tota multi­tudo Christianorum vsum rationis habentium contra fi­dem errabit. Ibidem in fine. be [...]lse (as it is indeed, and manifestly against the Scripture, Daniel 7. I say 49. Mat. 18. Io. 14. Ephes. 4. Apoc. 20.) and that he knewe no Christian at all (he liued before the Protestant [Page 8] Religion) that held it.

ESt quaedam opinio quae viam eligens mediam praedictis om­nibus in aliquo aduersatur: tenens quod Scripturae diuin [...] contentae in Biblia, & eiusdem sacrae Scripturae scriptoribus, & Vniuersall Ecclesiae, atque Apostolis, absque vlla dubitatio­ne in omnibus est credendum. Nullis verò alijs quantacun­que doctrina vel sanctitate praepolleant, est in omnibus absque omni exceptione fides necessariò adhibenda. Ita quod nec in Concilio Cenerali si esset congregata vniuersalis Ecclesia, no [...] decretis aut decretalibus vel assertionibus summorum Pontifi­cum, nec Doctorum dictis, (siue fuerint ab Ecclesia approbati siue non fuerint approbati) est necessariò credulitas in omni dicto & casu absque omni exceptione praestanda: Licet in multis negari non debeant, & quoad multa Christiani ipsis credere teneantur. Baro p. 361. ex Ockami dial. 3. par. tract. 1. li. 3. c. 4.

3. THe third thing obiected is, that he mentions an Opinion holding [Page 9] amongst many other things, that credit is not to be giuen to a generall Councell in euery thing it saies, and in euery case without exception. Were this his owne tenet, our cause were not hurt, for wee do not maintaine in Councells of the Church, appro­ued, much lesse in all Councels that are stiled generall, such an vnlimited and vniuersall infallibilitie as these words import, in omni dicto & casu, absque omni exceptione, in all they say, and in all cases without exception, nei­ther indeed doth Ockam there men­tiō that cited pag. praeced. opinion assertiuè as holding; but recitatiuè as relating it: and this too, not as the opinion of any Ca­tholike Deuine (for he saies there in the person of the other Dialogist, that he neuer before heard or Si est aliqua opinio quae omnibus ob­uiet supradi­ctis, ipsam au­dire desidero, vt mihi detur occasio intelli­gendi profun­diùs veritatem. Mag. Est quae­dā opinio quae viam eligens mediā &c. ( vt pag. 8.) Disc. Istam opinio­nem aliàs non audiui, nec legi. Ockam. 3. p lib. 3. cap. [...] reade it,) but as an opinion which a sear­cher of curious questions Vt mihi detur occasio intelligendi profundiùs ver­tatem. Ibidem vt suprà. Vt cognoscam quod aliquid apprentiae vel veritatis contineat, ipsam intendo aliqualit tecum discutere. Ibidem. Nolo vt quod tenes in me [...] reueles, sed responsiones aliquas quae cogitari vel tene potuerint à quocunque, non differas recitare. Mag. Hoc p [...] cto vt omnia quae narrabo non aliter accipiantur [...] quod aliquis quaestionum difficilium indagator po [...] dicendo computare consona veritati, quomodo ad pr [...] dictas instantias respondere contingat, ostendam. Vo [...] enim quod dicenda Fratri Magistro (Michaeli de C [...] na, Generali Minorum. vide prolog) & eius sequacib (Ockamo, caterisque) nequaquam imponas. Sicut praecedentibus multas recitaui sententias quae assertio [...] bus Domini Ioannis & suorum sequacium obuiant [...] nifestè; quas tamen Frater Magister & sui sequaces schismate contra Ioannem illi adhaerentes) minimè opin [...] tur: imò nonnullas impugnare nituntur. Ita in parte [...] tura operis huius (si tu volueris) plura referam q [...] Frater Magister & sui sequaces satagunt improbare. D [...] Quod istum modum teneas à principio acceptaui. Q [...] sententias contrarias quorumcunque Catholicorum & [...] reticorum &c. (vt supra ad lit. c.) Ockam p. 1. li. 5. c [...] Personam recitantis assumas, nec tantùm vnam sed pl [...] res quando tibi videbitur, ad eandem interrogation [...] narra sententias. Sed quod tua sapientia sentit, mihi [...] lis nullatenus indicare. Idem in Prologo Dial. Affectas video) quatenus ex serie dicendorum nemo possit coll [...] quam partem dissentientium circa fidem catholicam [...] putem iustiorem, quod tuae satisfaciens voluntati [...] cum alijs quae vel efflagitas vel affectas, seruare cura [...] Ibidem. might in­uent and bringe into discourse as an occasion to penetrate the deeper in­to the trueth, which is most diligen­tly sought when it is most cunningly contradicted; and appeares more cleerly in the vnderstanding when [Page 10] all errors are distinctly remou [...] from it.

In proposing the grounds of that [...]pinion (whose arguments himselfe [...]ppon another occasion and in a li­ [...]e matter, had before 1. p. li. 5 c. 9. Nec ex sancti­tate nec ex fidei firmitate Car­dinalium (Epi­scoporum) ma­iori quam ha­buerunt Apo­stoli, est quod Collegiū Car­dinalium (Con­cilium Episcopo­rum) errare non potest, sed ex promissione Christi. Ibidem. Dignitas eccle­siastica nec san­ctificat nec in­obliquabilē in fide instituit a­liquam perso­nam, tamen Christus praeser­uat ab errore contra fidem aliquod colle­gium habens a­liquam specia­lem dignitatē; quē ad modū re­gio Christiana nec sanctificat nec inobliquabilem red­ [...] aliquam personam, Christus tamen praeseruat colle­gium suscipientium religionem Christianam ne erret con­tra fidem. Ibidem. Ad decimam dicitur dupliciter, vn [...] modo quod Collegium Archiepiscoporum & Episcopo­rum non potest contra fidem errare, & isti conced [...] quod praeter congregationem fidelium sunt plura colleg [...] particularia, quae contra fidem errare non possunt, scilice Collegium Cardinalium & Collegium Episcoporum. A­liter dicitur quod Collegium Cardinalium quantum [...] aliqua est eminentiùs Collegio Episcoporum licet qua [...] [...]um ad aliqua sit inferius ipso; & ideo licet Cardinal [...] valeant eligi ad Episcopatus, poterit tamen Collegiu [...] Episcoporum vel ipsorum Cardinalium esse confirmatum in fide. Ad vndecimam dicitur quod de sola Eccless [...] militante in generali asseritur quod non potest con [...] fidem errare, cum hoc tamen stat quod sit aliqua Eccles [...] particularis quae non potest errare contra fidem; Sicut conceditur quod congregatio fidelium errare non potest, [...] tamen simul cum hoc conceditur: quod Concilium generale contra fidem errare non potest. Ibidem answered) [...]e discouers it to apprehend that [...]e infallibilitie, (such as it doth im­ [...]gne) depends vpon some newe Eugen [...] ab Ammedera dixit, & hoc ego idem censeo haeretic [...] baptizandos esse. (Augustinus) huic respondetur; Sed no [...] hoc censet Ecclesia, cui Deus iam plenario etiam Concili veuelauit. Quod tunc adhuc aliter quidem sapiebatis, se [...] quia in vobis charitas salua erat in vnitate permanebat [...] S. Aug. li. 6. de bapt. contra Donatist c 39. [...]uelation; and then brings argu­ [...]ents against this way; whereas [...]ckam knew and had himself noted [...]at Catholikes defend infallibilitie [...]therwise. And that same Opinion, for of it I must speake and not of him, since he doth not owne it, that same Opinion I say, maintayning as it doth, the vniuersall Church present to be infallible, and the decrees ap­proued by it to be of authoritie vn­controuleable, so farre that none may Est quaeda [...] opinio tene [...]s quod Scripturae diuinae contentae in Biblia & eiusdem sacrae Scripturae scriptoribus, & vniuersali Ecclesia, atque Apostolis, absque vlla dubitatione in omnib [...] est credendum. Nullis verò alijs quantacumque doctrin [...] vel sanctitate praepolleant est in omnibus absque om [...] exceptione fides necessariò adhibenda. Ita quod nec i [...] Concilio &c. ( vt supra pag. 8.) Ockam. dial. p 3. li 3. c. 4. doubt of thē, must acknow­ledge another way; for neither can this infallibilitie in matter of faith [...]e attributed to humane industrie; [...]or will it (the opinion I meane) ad­ [...]itte a continuall dependance vpon [...]uelations, to be made alwaies to his purpose.

True it is that it seekes an answe [...] to the argument of Gods prouiden­ce and protection, grounded in ou [...] [Page 13] Sauiours promise; euer labouring to [...]de newe wayes; but the issue is [...]ch as makes any wise man afraid to [...]bscribe. So little faith it hath in Ie­sus Christ, and his promises, that it [...]eth (and by the mouth of Ockam) [...]at the whole Multitudo Christianorum (dum tamen a­lij vel saltem vnus fidelis re­maneat) potest inuoluenti pe­riculo haeresis & erroris (a­lijs exigentibus peccatis ipso­rum) exponi. Quibus in hae­reticam praui­tatem labenti­bus valet ille qui de lapidi­bus potest sus­citare filios A­brahae, vel de aliquibus ipso­rum aut de a­lijs quando vo­luerit numerū Christianorum augere. Idem 3. p. li. 3. c. 13. Est quoddam peri­culum tantum­modo immi­nens seu cir­cumstans; & est periculum in­uoluēs seu pro­sternens. Ibi­dem. §. Cum autem. multitude of Chri­ [...]ans, so one man remaine sound (him­selfe perchance) may be exposed not [...] circumstant and imminent only, [...]t to inuoluing and vanquishing or [...]erthrowing danger of Heresie and er­rour. In which case (quibus in Haere­ [...]am prauitatem labentibus) it will haue God, who of stones can raise Abraham sonnes, of these or others to make vp his Church anewe.

You may further obserue if you read Ockam, how the blinde Opinion knowes not where to take footing, or which way to proceed whilst it [...]es stumbling on: Wee must not be­l [...]ue a Councell su­prà pag. 8. in all things; so it [...]gins: then, especially c. 7. if they be f [...]e in it, as there haue bene some ty­ [...] ten or twelue: then, it is not necessa­r [...] c. 8. of euery Councell; then, it is not ne [...]essarie to beleeue that a question of [...]h is Ibidem alwayes ended by reuela­tions; [Page 14] then; neither c. 9. perchance [...] there be alwaies a reuelation made [...] oft as a generall Councell will be he [...] &c. with so many limitations a [...] cautions, fortè, and semper, and q [...] ties. And againe; it cannot be pro [...] by this (an argument there brough [...] that it is c. 11. necessarie to beleeue th [...] the determinations of generall Counc [...] touching the doubtfull meaning of h [...] Scripture haue the origen of their true that way by which they were inspi [...] to the writers of holy Scripture, wi [...] much more of like nature. And t [...] enforced answers which Ockam fein [...] for it, to the grounds of the comm [...] tenet brought in there in part agai [...] that new-conceaued blinde error (whereof I haue related p. 13. one,) [...] so vnworthie of a learned Christi [...] that you may see looking on the [...] well, how, pretending to nouris [...] he (on better aduise) leaues it an [...] [...] bortiue; and makes against it th [...] confession: First Concilium ge­nerale non de­bet regulariter occul [...]è seu se­cretè paucis scientibus cele­brari: sed vul­gandum est per vniuersalē Ec­clesiam, hoc est per omnes regiones in prouincia in qua seu in quibus Catholici cō ­morantur, ge­nerale Conci­lium conuocari debere, quate­nus omnes Ca­tholici tacitè vel expressé cō ­sentiant, & qua­si authoritatē tribuant vt ad concilium pro­fecturi, eorum nomine circa ordinanda & definienda in Generali Con­cilio canonicè & catholicè at­que ritè pro­cedant; vt me­ritò quicquid catholicè & li­citè statuerint vel definierint, vniuersali sta­tuatur & defi­niatur assensu. p. 3. l. 3. c. 13: quando igitur Concilium Ge­nerale ritè cō ­uocatur, & in omnibus ca­tholicè proce­dit, quicquid fecerit, ab vniuersali Ecclesia fieri est putan­dum. Ibidem. when a gene [...] Councell is rightly called and proce [...] in all things Catholikely and holily (n [...] ther am I defending others) quicq [...] fecerit what soeuer it shall doe is t [...] [Page 15] [...]eemed done by the vniuersall Church. [...]he Catholike Church then, it see­ [...]es in his iudgment, or in the iud­ [...]ment of the Opinion, for so wee must speake of it since it wants an author; [...]engaged in the Councells decrees; [...]nd consequently it much concernes him who hath the care of her, (doce­ [...]t vos) to take order, the Councell mistake not; and so much' that the [...]edit of her (cui in omnibus suprà pag. 8. abs­ [...]e vlla dubitatione credendum est, if [...]e opinion take place which you tell vs Ockam held) is ruined with the same lapse, if in estimation both are one.

In the same place he sayth that Post­quam acta Ge­neralis Conci­lij per vniuer­sos Catholicos populos fue­runt promul­gata, si nullus contradicens aut impugnans ap­paret, sunt pu­tanda ab vniuersali Ecclesia approbata. p. 3. li. 3. c. 13. autem acta Generalis Concilij non fuerunt apud om [...] populos Catholicos diligenter exposita, non est dice [...] dum quòd tale Concilium Generale sit explicitè ab Ecclesia approbatum, licet si sanctè & catholicè fuerit celebr [...] ­tum, possit dici implicitè ab vniuersali Ecclesia approbat [...] Ibidem. Quod statuitur vel definitur in Concilio Genera [...] non ligat vniuersalem Ecclesiam, nisi per vniuersale [...] Ecclesiam fuerit legitimè diuulgatum: & ideò non est co [...] sendum explicitè approbatum ab vniuersali Ecclesia, a [...] tequam taliter publicetur. Non oportet autem taliter de­finitum singulorum auribus inculcare, sed sufficit [...]ali [...] publicare quod nullus se possit, si in contrarium vene [...] per ignorātiam excusare Ibid. after the acts of a generall Councell haue been promulgated amongst all Ca­tholike people, (to promulgate them amongst Heretiks he did not estee­me it necessarie) if then no man ap­ [...]ares (he speakes still of Catho­ [...]kes) contradicting or impugning, they [...] to be esteemed approued of the vni­ [...]rsall Church. Secondly, Iuxta Sanctorū Pat [...] sententiam, Concilia Generalia, quae ritè, iustè, sanctè [...] canonicè celebrata fuerunt, sunt ab omnibus Catholicis [...] notissimè suscipienda, amplectenda & veneranda. Ock [...] 3. p. li 3. c. 9. those Councells which haue been celebrated, [...]derlie, rightlie, holilie, and canoni­ [...]llie, are according to the iudgment of [Page 16] the holie Fathers (marke those Authors) most deuoutlie te bo receaue [...] embraced, and reuerenced by all Catholikes. Thirdlie; if Aut Concilium generale catholicè def [...] aliquid esse credendum, aut erroneè. Si catholicè, nulli li [...] publicè negare, vel etiam publicè dubitare taliter defi [...] tum. Nulli etiam licet pertinaciter occultè vel etiam motaliter de tali definito dubitate. Ibidem. a generall Cou [...] cell doe Catholikelie (that is in his e [...] plication ritè, iustè, sanctè, canoni [...] define something to be beleeued, it [...] lawfull for none to denie publikelie, [...] publikelie to doubt of the thing so de [...] ned. Neither is it lawefull for any m [...] stubbornelie, occultè, vel etiam men [...] [Page 17] [...]ter, secretlie, or as much as mentallie [...] doubt of the thing so defined. He is [...]ōne farther now by much then you [...]n suffer; neither will you finde [...]herein these words differ from our [...]net; for wee maintaine not the in­ [...]llibilitie of such Councells as pro­ [...]ed against that order which is es­ [...]ntiallie required in a Councell.

By the way; you must heere di­ [...]inguish Councels; (if you will not [...]ake this Opinion to contradict it [...]lf:) those which be sincere and ap­ [...]oued be certaine in their decrees; those that are not, may mistake. And if there be doubt of any, to which sort they appertaine, it will [...]t haue them obaid. It doth also di­ [...]nguish about the decrees of the for­ [...]er sort, as others do towards Scri­ [...]ure; an explicite, and an implicite [...]th. There is none in your parish [...]eeues the Scripture all in euerie [...]t and euerie literall sence distin­ [...]e, explicitè: no not your self ma­ [...] Parson. And finallie it distingui­ [...]eth a double approbation of de­ [...]es, one is authenticall, donne by [...] Pope: another priuate, by any that [Page 18] is a Scholler: Consentiens subscrips [...] but I should not anticipate.

SI quaeratur quis habet iudicare an concilia fuerint catholicè celebrata? Respondetur, quod quia non definirent aliqu [...] nisi quod potest elici ex Scriptu is diuinis, ideo periti in Scr [...] pturis, & habentes aliarum sufficientem intelligentiam script [...] rarum, habent iudicare per modum firmae assertionis, quod [...] finita abijs sunt catholicè definita Ba [...]o. ex Ockami dial.

4. LAstlie you take occasion o [...] of his words, to question wh [...] shall iudge whether the Counc [...] haue defined canonicallie or no; [...] which case wee are not so ignora [...] as to runne out of the Church to H [...] retickes to learne of them. Neith [...] doe wee esteeme William Ockam great an oracle, that, were his doct [...] ne heerein singular, neglecting bo [...] the Quamuis omnes Episco­pi orbis terrae praesentes fuis­sent 3 p. li 3. c. 9. per congre­gationem quae à multitudine fidelium Gene­rale Cōcilium aestimatur. Ibi­dem. Councell, and the Chur [...] Et si quaeratur quis habet iudica [...]e an fuerint ca­tholicè cele­brata? Respon­detur, quod quia non defi­nierunt aliquid nisi quod po­test elici ex Scripturis di­uinis, ideo pe­riti in Scriptu­ris & habentes aliarum suffi­cientem intel­ligentiam scri­pturarum, ba­bent iudicare per modū fir­mae assertionis (fortè, assentio­nis) quod defi­nita ab eis sunt catholicè defi­nita. Summi autem Pontifi­ces si non fue­rint praesentes, sed tantum mo­do authoritate eorum praesen­tibus legatis ip­sorum celebra­ta fuerunt au­thenticè, iudi­care habēt quod catholicè extite­rint celebrata. Si autem Sum­mus Pontisex praesens fueri [...], sufficit quod authenticet ipsa. Ibidem. adherent to it, wee should g [...] learne of him what conditions [...] necessarie to the subsistence o [...] Councell, and whether all were [...] or no. Yet this is not the Questio [...] It is one thing to dispute whethe [...] Priest can consecrate; and another dispute whether you be a Priest. O [...] thing to dispute whether a gene [...] [Page 19] Councell can define infalliblie, ano­ [...]her to dispute which is a generall Councell. The controuersie wee spe­ [...]ke of is about the former, wherein [...]atholikes maintaine the affirma­ [...]ue, and you shall neuer proue that [...]kam held the contrarie by his Dia­ [...]gues whilst his Dialogues are extant. [...] fine if it be obiected that he hath [...]t expreslie and professedlie answe­ [...]d diuers argumēts which he bringes [...]ainst Councells, this will not con­ [...]de that he held against such as [...]ere lawfull and approued, and con­sequentlie that he did herein con­tradict himselfe: for l. 5. c. vlt. he beings arguments to proue that the [...]hole multitude of beleeuers, as [...]any as haue vse of reason, may er­ [...] concluding suprà ad lit. d vide etiam quae habentur, l [...]t [...]h it is temerarious to [...]rme that it will neuer be: and [...]se arguments as I told you once [...]ore he leaues vnanswered; not [...]hstanding that in the beginning [...] did acknowledge none but So­ [...]ticall could be brought: and [...]t the thing was false, and that he [...]ewe no Christian at all, Catholike or [...]etike that held it. If you thinke [Page 20] that in his minde he was of that opinion, you cannot approue the Spirit, opposing all Christians and his owne conscience too: If you do not think he was, then let not his seeming want of answer, or indis­creet and scandalous proposing of doubts, moue you to iudge, (negle­cting the caueat he gaue in the suprà ad lit. f. beginning) that in them he deliue­red his owne minde. Much less [...] should you adore this vnhappie worke as a piece heauenlie-inspi­red for the worlds learning, conside­ring how in it, like a serpent, h [...] rowles himselfe into windings stri­uing still to hide his head; and tha [...] hauing turbulentlie snatcht pen i [...] hand to maintaine a Schisme, he be­ginnes the worke with the com­mendation of his owne great Quod tua Sapientia sen­tit. Ibidem. wisdome. For my part I should no [...] wonder to finde in such a work [...] fouler errours then wee speake [...] hetherto. S. Hier. in Tit. c. 3. There is no scisme whic [...] feignes not vnto it self some Heresie (S [...] Ierome saies,) that it may seeme iust [...] to haue departed from the Church.

§. II.

1. Petrus Cameracensis reciteth diuers opi­nions, out of Ockam: whereof one is that of Councels, allreadie handled. 2. He said, in his yonger age, disputatiuè not assertiuè, that the infallibilitie of other Church besides the vniuersall could not be cōuinced out of Scriptu­ [...]re. What, he thought of the point it self, he de­clared afterwards. 3. He did not hold that the whole multitude of Christians, Clerks and (4.) Laicks, might fall from the true faith.

OMnes fideles in eo communiter consentire videntur, quod tota Ecclesia siue multitudo omnium Christianorum, hae­ [...]eticari non potest, siue contra fidem errare. Baro. p. 363. ex [...]lliacens [...]. Octaua assertio est, quod etiam Concilium generale [...]otest contra fidem errare, quia ipso sic errante adhuc staret [...]liquos extra concilium non errare, & per consequens fidem Ecclesia non deficere. Ibidem ex eodem.

1. PETRVS CAMERACENSIS. This man (if the v [...]speriae and the Resumptiō of it, be his) is brought, first, to beare witnes that in his time there were contrarie opinions about [Page 22] the authoritie of Councells. The reason why they call vpon him is, because amongst assertions which he relates in his Vesperiall Quaestion, one is, that a generall Councell may er­re against faith. Wherevnto I ans­wer, first that wee maintaine not the infallibilitie of all that beare the name. Secōdlie he doth Recitan­dae sunt quae­dam assertio­nes circa istam materiam plu­rimum differen­tes. Prima est in qua cōmu­niter omnes fi­deles videntur cō [...]enire quod tota Ecclesia siue multitudo omniū Christianorū haereti­cari non potest, siue cōtra fidē errare. Secūda quod nec etiā Concilium Generale. Tertia quod nec Romana Ecclesia Quarta quod nec Collegium Cardinalium. Quinta quod nec Papa canonicè intrans. Aliae autem sunt quinque asser­tiones praedictis valdè repugnantes. Vna est quod Papa intrans canonicé, haereticari potest &c. Octaua quod etiam Concilium Generale &c. Nona est, quod tota multitudo non solum Cardinalium, sed generaliter omnium virorum potest sic errare, & fides Ecclesi [...]e in solis mulieribus con­seruari Decima est, quod tota multitudo Christianorum no [...] solum virorum, sed etiam mulierum vsum rationis haben­tium potest errare contra fidem; quia hoc stante adhuc in paruulis baptizatis possunt saluari omnes promissione [...] Christi de fide Ecclesiae vsque ad consummationem saecu­li. Petrus Cameracensis Quaest. Vesp. recite asser­tions onely in that place, and not ap­proue them, as appeares by his words recitandae sunt assertiones circa mate­riam istam plurimum differentes, I mus [...] recite certaine assertions about thi [...] matter that are much different; or, as after he doth expound it, repugnan­tes, [Page 23] some repugnant to other, and, if in his iudgment they be repugnant, you haue no reason to conceaue he doth approoue them all. Thirdlie, he doth not name any Catholike author holding that assertion, which you speake of, or the rest which fol­lowe; but tooke them out of Ex 1. p. li 5. capitibus 1. 2. 3. 7. 22. 25. 32. 35. O­chams Dialogues, whence he Confer capita 28. 30. 31. 32. 34. & 35. cum Quaestio­ne Vesperiali & Quaestione de Resumpta Pe­tri Camer. tran­scribes, and some times verbatim di­uers peeces of these questiōs which you would make vse of. Neither doth he omitt to recite that opinion of all Christians as many as haue vse of reason erring possiblie all together against faith, which Ocham himselfe had said was false, and the reasons for it, those which Ockam giues, he calls apparentes, seeming, yet him­selfe in the end of this Question Ex prae­dictis sequun­tur aliquae pro­positiones co­rollariae: Pri­ma est, quod semper in Eccle­sia vniuersali erunt plures adulti illustrati veritate fidei. Se­cunda est, quod semper in Ecclesia Vniuersali erunt plu­res iusti formati virtute spe [...]. Tertia quod semper in Ec­clesia Vniuersali erunt plures electi inflammati charitate Dei. Prima propositio patet quia &c. Quast. Vesper. contradicts it, and maintaines the contrarie.

[Page 24]EX sacra Scriptura non conuincitur quod sit aliqua Ecclesia particularis quae regulae legis Christi semper conformetur. Baro p. 363. ex Alliac. Quaest. Vesp. Concilium generale pote [...] defformari legi Christi. idem p. 364. ex Quaest. Resumpta. Ec­clesia Romana quae distinguitur à tota congregatione fideliu [...] sicut pars à toto, potest haereticari. Ibidem ex eadem quast.

2. THe second thing obiected is, that he thought it could not be conuinced out of Scripture that any Church distinct from the vniuersall, is alwaies free from er­rour; whence is inferd that in his opinion it cānot be conuinced out o [...] Scripture that a generall Councel [...] is alwaies free. I answere, first, we [...] maintaine not all Councells which goe vnder the name of generall. Se­condlie it is one thing to saie lawfull Councells are free from errour in definition, and an other thing to saie that wee can proue this by Scripture▪ it is one thing to saie the Epistle of S. Iames hath sacred authoritie, and another thing to saie that by Scri­pture you can proue it. Wherefore suppose this Author had said in his yonger daies that he thought the infallibilitie of full and lawfull [Page 25] Councells could not be proued ex [...]acra Scriptura, by Scripture, it doth [...]ot follow that he denied their in­ [...]llibilitie. Thirdlie what he saith in [...]hat Question is deliuered (they be Haec di­cta sint de ter­tia conclusione & suis adiun­ctis: & de tota ista quaestione solùm disputa­tiuè & non as­sertiuè. Petrus Camer. Quaest. de Resumptâ, sine. his owne words) disputatiuè, [...]on assertiuè; by waie of dispute, not [...]y waie of affirmation; wherefore, if [...]ou wronge him not, you must not [...]ie he held that Councells infallibi­ [...]tie (such Councells as had all con­ [...]tions necessarie) could not be pro­ [...]ed (yea and against a stubborne [...]uersarie sufficientlie conuinced) [...]ut of Scripture. Fourthlie, this which [...]as said not assertiuè but onelie dis­ [...]tatiuè, he submitted to the iud­ [...]ment Non est ergo quò secu­riùs fugiam quā filius ad matrē, filius Ecclesiae ad matrem Eccle­siam; &c. Ad hanc igitur cō ­fugiens & sua lege regulari [...]piens, me & dicta mea omnia suae & suorum filiorum tam [...]sentium quam absentium charitatiuae correctioni committo: [...]sub hac & alijs protestationibus fieri consuetis quas sup­ [...]co haberi pro repetitis, gratia breuitatis, ad quae­ [...]onis responsionem accedo. Idem Quaest. Vesper. in prin­ [...]. of the Church, therely re­ [...]acting or disauowing (according [...] the manner of the schooles, yet in [...]e) what in this disputation might [...]rchance escape amisse, either for [...]e substance, or the manner of his [Page 26] speech. And finallie, being after much more studie and reading of Scri­ptures publikelie in the nature o [...] Professor, made Bishop and Cardi­nall he was called to the Counce [...] of Acta Conc. Constant. Sess. 20. Constance, and there wit [...] the rest of the Bishops, he sufficien­tlie made knowne that he though all were bound to beleeue what [...] generall Councell, and particularl [...] that of Constance, did declare touching faith. If you reade the interrogatories made Interroge­tur vtrum cre­dat, quod illud quod sacrum Conciliū Con­stantiense vni­uersalem Ec­clesiam repraesentans approbauit & approbat in fau [...] fidei & ad salutem animarum, quod hoc est ab vniue [...] Christi fidelibus approbandum & tenendum; & quod [...] demnauit & condemnat esse fidei vel bonis moribus [...] trarium, hoc ab eisdem esse tenendum pro condemnato; [...] dendum & asserendum. Martinus quintus, approbante Ce [...] Constantien. vtrum credat sententiam sacri Const. Con [...] supra 45. articuli, Ioan. Wicklef & Ioan. Hus, latam [...] re veram, Catholicam &c. Ibidem. there by th [...] Pope sacro approbante Concilio, y [...] will not vrge him any more in th [...] matter.

TOta multitudo Clericorum & Laicorum virorum p [...] à vera fide deficere. Baro p. 364. ex Alliac Qua [...] Resumpta. Intentio autem mea conclusionis sicut patuit [...] ctis [...]eis erat quod data quacumque Ecclesia certae den [...] [...]ionis quae non sit toti congregationi fidelium generalis, verbi [...]au [...]a Ecclesia Clericorum, Ecclesia Italicorum, Ecclesia Galli­ [...]orum &c Ex Scriptura sacra non conuincitur quod semper sit [...]liqua talis, siue consimilis denominationis quae Christi legis re­ [...]ulae conformetur. Idem ex eadem Quaestione.

[Page 27]3. YOu conceaue withall what is to be said in answere to the rest [...]biected out of him, and particular­ [...]e vnto that of the Clergie where he [...]eemes not to haue then well refle­cted on those words of S. Paul who [...]oth testifie (and his testimonie is in [...]he Scripture) that our Sauiour cōsti­ [...]uted and Ephes. 4. gaue Pastors; and Doctors [...]o the consummation of the Saincts, vnto [...]he worke of the ministerie, vnto the edi­ [...]ing of the bodie of Christ, vntill wee [...]eete all into the vnitie of faith, that [...]e be not children wauering and caried [...]bout with euerie winde of Doctrine. The like wee reade in Esaie, vpon Esay 62. thy walls o Hierusalem, I haue ap­pointed watchmen: all the daie, and all [...]he night for euer they shall not hold [...]heir peace. And other places there [...]re to this purpose verie plaine, that [...]nnot be auoided.

Neither did he finde himselfe able [...] satisfie the argument, taken from [Page 28] the nature of a Hierarchie, and the acts pertaining to it, that are alwaies to be found in the Church whilst it lasts, that is, all daies till the consum­mation of the world, which argument is there brought, and he doth ende­uour, but could not finde an answer for it. First he saith that supposing the whole Clergie should erre against the faith, some one of them might haue power to giue orders, to ex­communicate or binde in way o [...] iurisdiction, to consecrate, and administer Sacraments: and so saith he praelationis ordo remaneret in Ecclesi [...] the Order of Prelacie, which is, of Ec­clesiasticall Superiours to their infe­riours, would remaine in the Church as, also distinction of degrees; Sacra­ments and other rights. But his oppo­nent would aske him instantlie, ho [...] the distinction of degrees of Prie [...] and Bishop, of Pastor and people how the order of Prelacie, and powe [...] to consecrate, absolue, binde, an [...] preach; be within, if the Preists an [...] Bishops, if the Prelates and such [...] haue this power, be without? He answers; licet fortè non actu, tamen in p [...] entiâ [Page 29] propinquâ, though perchance not [...]ctuallie, yet in a neere power; and this, [...] passiue power, for if the Preists and Bishops be without, the actiue is not within. How then is there actuallie [...] Hierarchie, and the ministration before spoken of in the Church? he [...]eaues it heere, and goes to trie Secundo lo­co probat iste Magister secū ­dam partē an­tecedentis sua principalis, sc. quod tota mul­titudo Clerico­rum non potest difformari legi Christi, quia Deus ita statuit Sacerdotes Leuiticos &c. [...]ō firmat per aliqua superiùs tacta, quia sequitur quod pos­ [...]et cessare in Ecclesia ordo praelationis & distinctio gra­ [...]uum & caetera contra Apostolum (ad Ephes. 4. vbi de Christo loquitur sic. Et ipse dedit quosdam Apostolos, [...]uosdam autem Prophetas &c. ad aedificationem corporis Christi, sc. Ecclesiae, donec occurramus.) Imo quod defice­ [...]e posset sacerdotium Christi; Sacramēta & alij ritus Ec­ [...]lesiae &c. Ad ista potest probabiliter dici &c. Ad confirma­ [...]onē licet supra tactum sit de materia argumēti tamen ad­ [...]uc potest dici dupliciter. Vno modo quod licet tota mul­ [...]tudo Clericorum contra fidem erraret, tamen aliquis [...]acerdos remaneret habens potestatem ordinandi, ligan­ [...], conficiendi, & alia sacramenta conferendi: & sic re­ [...]anent in Ecclesia ordo praelationis, distinctio graduum, [...]cramenta, & alij ritus. Et licet fortè non in actu, tamen [...] potentia propinqua. Petrus Camerac, Quaest. de Re­ [...]mpta. another waie, which is, though no Clerkes, at all remained, no Bishops, no Priests, in all the world, to con­secrate, ordaine, gouerne, preach, or exercise anie Hierarchicall actes, yet [Page 30] the Church thereby should no [...] loose the power to haue them, an [...] why? if none remaine to consecrate preach, or make a priest? because though she could neuer haue them b [...] humane power, yet by Gods miraculou [...] operation she might. And in fine h [...] concludes, that, though it be te [...] ­rarious to affirme that euer it shal [...] come to this, yet to denie that Go [...] by his omnipotencie can thus resto [...] Alio mo­do dicunt aliqui quod licet om­nes Clerici hae­reticarētur aut omnino nulli remanerēt, propter hoc Ec­clesia potesta­tem habēdi prae­dicta nequa­quam amitte­ret. Licet illa nunquam ha­bere posset per humanam po­testatem: sed per miraculo­sam Dei opera­tionem: qui sc. diuersis modis posset de ali­quibus laicis Catholicis, Sa­cerdotes & E­piscopos ordi­nare, & hoc suae Ecclesiae reue­lare. In quo ca­su omnes Ca­tholici deberēt taliter ordina­tos à Deo, sicut veros Episco­pos & Sacer­dotes habere. Et licet temera­rium esset assere­re talem casum de facto aliquā ­ [...] euenire: tamen esset etiam temerarium huius casus [...]testatem negare. Quia hoc esset de futuris (in hypothesi per [...]iraculum tantùm possibili) temerè diuinare: & contra ar­ [...]culum de Dei omnipotentia impudenter impingere. Ibi­ [...]em. vide Ockam. Dial. 1. p. li. 5. c. 32. & 3. p. li. 3. c. 13. [...]dmiratione per moue or quod isti praesumunt asserere, to­ [...]m Clerum posse falsitate haeretica irretiri: & quia vix [...]nquam aliquis sine motiuo assentit errori, aperias vnde [...]ti mouentur pro opinione praedicta. Ockam. p. 1. li. 5. c. [...]9. a Hierarchie, or that he woul [...] if there should be neede, were also temerarious. And no doubt he tha [...] of stones can raise vp seed to Abra­ham, can without the ministerie [...] men if he thinke good, make infi­dels beleeue, and ordaine the [...] Priests and Bishops; the question i [...] not of his absolute power; but whether by vertue of the present institution, there shall be, Hierarchical power in the Church euer till th [...] consummation of the world (Past [...] res & Doctores in opus ministerij do [...] occurramus omnes.) The Scriptu [...] affirmes it; and the same was inten­ded by that argument for which h [...] could not finde, though he we [...] [Page 31] [...]bout to seeke, an answer. And the­ [...]efore finding himselfe in those [...]raites, he thought it necessarie to [...]ublish his protestation, that what [...]e said, was suprà ad lit. c. onelie disputatiuè [...]ot assertiuè: leauing vs withall to [...]onsider how dangerous a thing it [...] for schollers to reade Ockams Dia­ [...]gues, where is vnhappilie ministred [...]ccasion of errour, and whence he [...]ooke manie things which you fin­ [...]e in this writing.

TOta multitudo Clericorum & Laicorum &c. vt suprà pag. 26.

IT is obiected further that he defends in his resumption, that [...]he whole multitude of Clerks and lay­men [Page 32] may fall from the true faith Wherein he is much wronged; h [...] defends it not; as appeares in the re­sumption of the seuerall parts [...] that ratio quinta §. suprà ad lit. l. Secundò prob [...] secundam partem antecedentis prin [...] palis, sc. quod tota multitudo Cler [...] rum non petest difformari legi Chris [...] where comes in the argument befo­re mentioned of Hierarchicall orde [...] and acts; and in the solution yo [...] shall finde alwaies laicks remainin [...] in the Church: and the same is al [...] manifest by his three propositions before suprà ad lit. d. cited, wherein he saies the [...] will be alwaies in the Church plu [...] adulti illustrati veritate fidei, plu [...] iusti formati virtute spei, plures ele [...] inflammati charitate Dei, many ado [...] ned with faith, hope, and charit [...] which all will not be woemen, [...] lesse you will learne of Ockam th [...] explication which he suggests ( [...] he doth many strange ones) el [...] that is Ad secun­dam rationem (vt in errorem ducantur, si fieri possit, etiam ele­cti.) potest dici quod electi cō ­prehendunt vi­ros & mulieres; & ideo per hoc quod iuxta promissionem Christi tem­pore Antichri­sti remanebunt electi, non po­test concludi quod illi electi [...]nt viri, quia mulieres tunc poterunt esse electae. Ockam [...]al. p. 1. l. 5. c. 34. electae; men, that is, woe [...] chosen or elected: and then, as a ingenious proficient in his Dia [...] gues, make the like explication adulti, and iusti.

You will recurre to the print or [...]ppie, for an excuse; which plea [...]ight be admitted in some others; [...]t in a scholler that pretends to ha­ [...] reade the Question in him, and [...]th vrge his authoritie against the [...]hurch of God, such a pretence [...]th no place.

§. III.

Waldensis yeilding to the Scripture a pre­minence in Authoritie, will haue vs depend [...]on the Church for the sence of it. 2. She is [...]o to declare which bookes are Canonicall [...]ripture. A speach of Canus touching Wal­ [...]sis his Opinion, examined. 3. When he saith [...] Fathers testimonie hath abolished all He­ [...]es, he doth not exclude the Authoritie of [...] Church, symbolicall, or representatiue. 4. [...]e symbolicall Church (he saith against Wi­ [...]ef) is not the Predestinated people only, but [...] Vniuersitie of right beleeuers spred ouer the [Page 34] whole world. 5. He held that the Church of Ro­me cannot faile. 6. and that perfect oecumenicall Councels be infallible in their decree.

HAecipsa fides & authoritas Ecclesiae, quantum homi [...] supergreditur rationem tantùm fateor diuina legis [...] thoritati succumbit. Baro p. 365. ex Waldensi Media est [...] inter supremam authoritatem Scripturae & infimam ratio [...] fides Ecclesiae; Scripturas venerabiliter attollens & exhibeus, rationem vagam hominis ad hanc geminam authorita [...] alligans zona Pauli. Idem ex eodem.

1. WALDENSIS, saith, the autho [...] tie of the Church is inferiour the authoritie of Scripture. What this? will you inferre that wee th [...] refore neede not obaie the decr [...] of Councells; or, that the Ch [...] ches authoritie is fallible? Infallib [...] tie may be in others besides Sc [...] pture. The Apostles were not Sc [...] pture, yet were they infallible [...] nesses of the trueth. The Churc [...] the pillar and ground of trueth, tho [...] the Church be not Scripture. 1. Timoth. 3. Th [...] may be diuers Authorities infall [...] and one of them Subordinate to [...] other. And so are these two, acc [...] ding to this Author, as you may [Page 35] [...]by the places represented in the Quamuis fides vniuersa­lis Ecclesiae in­uenitur per Scripturas ex­pressa ficut est paenè tota, non tamen est ei [...]n authoritate par sed subijcitur. Waldensis de principijs fidei Doctr tomo 1. li. 2. c. 21. Fides vt est Ecclesiae Catholicae in hoc accedit fi­dei Scriptura­rum; quod non licet de ipsa du­bitare, eo quod testimoniū Ec­clesiae Catholi­cae est obiectū fidei Christia­nae, & legis la­tio scripturae canonicae. Sub­ijcitur tamen ipsi, sicut testis iudici, & testi­monium veri­tati: sicut prae­con [...]zatio de­finitioni, & si­cut praeco regi. Ib [...]dem Quod aliquis pater v­nus singulari­ter per se sensit potes aliquo, saltem colore tuo decredere: quod autem poenè omnes quasi vnus ho­mo loquuntur, fidei robur ha­bet, quia vnitas ipsa in Ecclesia hoc loquitur omnium gen­tium linguis. I­dem c. 25. margine. One onely, I will putt here, because it serues also for that which followes. In the 18. Chapter of his 2. Booke. Doct. Fid. he declares how the sinceritie of the Churches testimonie in matters of faith is be­leeued in the Creed, (there, where we professe to beleeue the holie Catholike Church) and amongst other things to this purpose, hath these words; Before the written Gospell, this (in the heart of the Church) was the Gospell which Iesus Christ wrote, and which the A­postles wrote in the harts of men; and to whose testimonie euerie one must stand (in the controuersies) whether the text of the written Gospell be vn­derstood or taken by the faithfull, or sub­uerted by the Heretick: whereof the A­postle speaks to the Corinthians, saying [...]ow are our Epistle written in your hearts, which is knowne and read of all men, declared that you are the Epistle of Christ manifested by vs, and writ­ten not with inke but by the spicit of the liuing God, not in tables of stone but in fleshlie tables of the heart. And a litle after. Though the law of nature [Page 36] which men beare written in their hearts, be most certaine, yet much mo­re hath the law of Christ certissimum interpretamentum, a most certaine in­terpretation, in the hearts of the faith­full succeeding one another from the beginning of the rising Church and the Apostles times, foreuer, according to that of the Prophet, this is the testament which I will make to them, giuing my lawes in their hearts, and in their sense or minde I will write them.

I must not omitt to putt you fur­ther in minde that in the place by you cited he saith, Haec ipsa fides Ecclesiae & eius authoritas, quantum hominum supergreditur rationem, tantum fateor diuin [...] legis authoritati succumbit, sed tamen qua [...] minoris esse authoritatis fidelibus si eam Ecclesia non praeferret Wa [...]d to 3. de Sacramentalibus tit 7. c. 63. Si verum sem per sit te­stimonium Ecclesiae, semper credenda est si quandoq [...] fallere consueta, in omnibus est suspecta. Ibidem. the diuine law were vnto the faithfull, Non licet de ipsa dubitare, &c. vide in Ad­dit. of lesse autho­ritie, if the Church did not preferre it. And Hoc est quod superius dixi, quantumlibet eminent Scriptura diuina sanctioni Ecclesiae, ipsa tamen taxabe [...] se sum eius quo aliter sentire non possis, & cuius inter­praetationi resistere capitalis est culpa, dicit Origenes Ibid [...]. howmuch soeuer the diuin [...] [Page 37] scripture is higher then the decree of [...]he Church, ipsa tamen sensum eius [...]axabit, she notwithstanding shall de­ [...]ne the sense wherein thou maiest not [...]old otherwise, and whose interpreta­ [...]on to resist is, as Origen speakes, a [...]apitall offence. So he.

AD Concilium vniuersale praecipué pertinet definire qui li­ber sit canonicus Quam quidem propositionem aequo ani­ [...]o paterer ab haereticis non admitti, sed illud tamen doleo vehe­ [...]enter quod eam nonnulli fideles inficiantur, in quibus Tho­ [...]as Waldensis esse videtur li. 2. doc. fid. c. 19. Baro. p. 365. ex [...]no. Addit. Baro, c. 20. & 21.

SEcondlie it is obiected that he denies to the Church now [...]esent, power to determine which [...]e bookes of scripture. And for this [...]e cited three Chapters of his 2. [...]oke Doct. Fid. the 19. 20. and 21. [...]ut there I finde it not. He doth in­ [...]ed hold that the Catholick Churh [...]d no other is able to Et hoc est secundum di­ctū gloriosum de Ecclesia, quod sc. ipsa sola est cuius testimoniū est tantae authori­tatis & praeco­nij vt ipsos li­bros diuinarum scripturarū ta­xare, & decorū authoribus cer­tificare possit fideles, nec fas erit tanto testi­monio contra­ire. wald. li. 2. doct. fid. c. 20. Incertum ergo esse non potest cos esse libros canonicos & habere pondus authoritatissuae quibus Eccle­sia declarata per omnes gen­tes & ab Apo­stolis propaga­ta, testimoniū certum reddit. Ibidem. Dico quod Ecclesia eam doctrinam docet esse cre­dēdam sub poe­na contumaciae. Ea dico quae praesens est, quae iudicia directa decreuit à tem­poribus Apo­stolorum vs (que) ad praesens, vel vsque in prae­sens per succes­siones Patrum id ipsum sapiē ­tium atque do­centium; ei in­quam credi de­bet sub poena perfidiae. tom. 1. doctrina 2. certifie [...]hich bookes are scripture, and that [...]e can commend none in this na­ [...]re, but such as were written in [...]e Apostles Ipsis patri­incumbe­bat qui tunc praesidebāt Ec­clesijs, ducere scripturarū vo­lumina ad per­fectum: tunc enim fuit tem­poris plenitu­do, & non du­bium libri non reciperentur in authoritatē sa­cri canonis nisi qui de illis tē ­poribus Apo­stolicis agerēt, & tunc tempo­ris essent, quia aliter non fa­cerent de diui­nis rebus fi­dem summam. Idem li. 2. c. 20. vt suprà. daies: but this is [...]t to denie the present Church or Councell, power to propose againe [Page 38] the same. There were, notwithstan­ding the Apostles approbation of di­uers parts of the new testamēt (which approbation came not, at least so manifestlie, to the notice of all,) so­me who doubted of, Vide Disp. pa. 431 or denied, them; as for example, the Apocalyps and S. Iudes Epistle, and the later o [...] S. Peter: yet you your selues doe, and Waldensis did receaue them a [...] the hands of the Church by tha [...] part which then liued when he did Neither doth Canus saie that h [...] denied a Councell power to propo­se bookes in the manner wee no [...] speake of; but he saies onelie, tha [...] he seemes to be of those who denie th [...] power to define which booke is Canoni­call, to belonge chieflie to a gener [...] Councell. It is one thing to saie th [...] a Councell can doe it; another, t [...] saie the power belongs chieflie [...] the Councell; as you will percea [...] by the declaration of the next plac [...] obiected. Waldensis, as Canus wor [...] import, seemed to denie, not the fo [...] mer, but the later: neither doth [...] saie that he denied it, but that [...] did seeme to doe so, some things (th [...] [Page 39] [...]hilosophers vse to saie,) do seeme [...] be, and are not; and some thing [...]emes to one, otherwise many ti­ [...]es, then to an other. Had it been so [...]deed, I make no question but that [...]ou who haue been diligent in your [...]inde to seeke in him what might [...]e brought against vs, would not [...]aue omitted to relate the words.

When you seeke for them next, [...]ou will finde in him, first (as I said [...]efore) that in his exclusiue he spea­ [...]es of bookes not written in the A­ [...]ostles time or before; to which pur­ [...]ose he Waldens. li. 2. fid. doc. c. 20. brings the place of scri­ [...]ture, Dominus narrabit in scripturis [...]opulorum & principum horum qui [...]uerunt in ea, with S. Ieroms Com­ment on it, wherein are these words, vt exceptis Apostolis quodcunque aliud [...]osteà dicitur, abscindatur, non habeat [...]osteà authoritatem. And to the same [...]enour he himselfe a litle after, let vs [...]ote the differences of Scripture, be­cause the scripture or writing onlie of [...]he Princes, that is, of the Apostles, hath after our lord, the crowne of au­thoritie; I meane, of canonicall authori­tie; for the saying of the Saincts which [Page 40] followed them haue their authoritie, b [...] not canonicall. Secondlie whereas [...] might be obiected that the Churc [...] in a generall Councell might wri [...] a booke and put it into the canon [...] scripture to be among other book [...] of holie writt, since S. Gregorie th [...] great doth professe to honour the [...] as the Gospels, in those words, S. Greg. mag li. 1. Re­gesti, epist. 24. & citatur in De­cret. d. 15 Quin­tum quoque Concilium pa­riter venerot. I­bidem. Sicut Sancti Euangelij quatuor libros, [...] quatuor concilia suscipere & venera [...] me fateor, Waldensis there answere to this argument, and expounds th [...] words of S. Gregorie. Thirdlie, be­cause it might againe be obiecte [...] (out of the decrees whence the former obiection was taken) that Gelasius c. Sancta Roma­na. d. 15. Nec obstat Pelagia­na epistola de libr [...]s recipien­dis & non reci­p [...]ēd [...]s; vbi scri­pturarū libros in authoritate ple [...]r [...]a quo­modo sint haben­di denunciat nō ad authoritatem per seipsum in instaurat. wal­den. vbi supra. Pelagius the Pope seemes to deter­mine what bookes are to be recea­ued into the canon, and what not; he answers with a distinction, which doth explaine his minde, and dot [...] suffice to stopp your mouth whe [...] occasion require, Scripturarum lib [...] saith he, in authoritate plenaria qu [...] modo sunt habendi denunciat, non [...] authoritatem per scipsum instaur [...] That is, in briefe; he doth not giue but declare, their sacred and diuin [...] [Page 41] [...]thoritie. And the same, the Church [...] all times, might and may doe, [...]hensoeuer there shall be cause. [...]hey were by the holy Ghost in­ [...]red, and written by the Apostles [...]d Princes of the Church, qui fue­ [...]t in ea; and were approued by them [...]; but it hath beene since necessa­ [...] to declare some of them; to giue [...]timonie that they be diuine; and [...]s testimonie the Church still can [...]e. Neither is our Sauiour offen­ [...]d with her testimonie giuen to [...] word, who was pleased that she [...]ould giue testimonie of him­ [...]fe. Of which matter this author [...]th much in the former Chapters, [...]eciallie the eighteenth. Fourthlie, [...] doth esteeme the iudgment of [...] Pope, and of a perfect Councell [...]e infallible as you will heare be­ [...]e wee leaue him; and therefore [...]ch more is he to be esteemed to [...]eld this honour to the whole, whe­ [...] they be. All which being con­ [...]ered, that which you did vrge out [...] Canus so appeares, that it is but a [...]ere videtur; without an est, vn­ [...] it.

[Page 42]HAec est sola machinae Christiana quae cunctas haereses mel aboleuit, ipsa sc. professio concors sanctorum Patr [...] secundum suorum temporum interualla reddentium testi [...] nium Christi verbis, & consuetudini primitiue. Baro p. 3 [...] ex wald. to. 3. de Sacramentalibus; doct. 3.

3. THirdlie, it is inferred that [...] takes infallibilitie frō Cou [...] cells, and from the present Churc [...] because he saith that the vnanim [...] profession of the holie Fathers giu [...] testimonie according to the distance [...] their times to the Latiùs patet verbum, quàm scriptura. words of Christ [...] the primitiue custome, is the o [...] Christian engine which hath once [...] lished all Heresies. Wherevnto I a [...] swere, first, that he speakes with [...] exclusion of the Church present [...] each heresie; for it is well know [...] that the Church which did abo [...] Arianisme, and Nestorianisme, [...] the rest of the heresies before [...] times, was that Church wh [...] knewe of them; and that she di [...] by her Pastors; and for the most p [...] in Councells, though not without [...] censent of that part of the Chu [...] and those her Pastors which li [...] in the precedent ages; which o [...] [Page 43] [...] or agreeable profession, was [...]nd, partlie by their bookes, as in [...] acts of the Councells appeares [...]his daie; and partlie by the tradi­ [...] of the particular Churches whe­ [...] they had liued and died. Which [...]nner the Church doth still obser­ [...] in condemning heresies, as they [...]se, ioyning her present Authori­ [...] to that of the precedent ages; [...]ose minde she doth enquire in [...]e manner; that so, by consent of [...] whole, still, errours be condem­ [...]d. Neither is it necessarie to finde [...]at which she doth at anie time [...]opose, vniuersallie professed by all [...]fore, in plaine termes, and explici­ [...] or to finde it in all bookes of tho­ [...] times; the Church informer ages [...]d not so; wee take the same course [...]at she then did. Secondlie you must [...]tend vnto the words cunctas abole­ [...]e hath abolished all; No one Coun­ [...]ll, no one part, as that which liued [...] the second age, or that which li­ [...]ed in the third, or fourth, hath abo­ [...]hed and destroyed them all; but [...]e whole hath done it. Thirdlie that [...]la, is not If sola be ta­ken as you would haue it, what will be­come of your triall by scri­pture onlie. captiouslie to be stood [Page 44] vpon, least you wrong the same A [...] thor, who neuer excluded the Sym­bolicall Church for whose testimon [...] so. 3. doc. 3. & tomo 1. li. 2. ca. 18.19.20. &c. he pleades so earnestlie, both i [...] the same place, and in his secon [...] booke Doct. Fid. in many chapter [...] prouing it (it's testimonie I meane to be contained in the Creede: y [...] the Fathers (of whose consent [...] speakes in the place by you hee [...] vrged) be not the symbolica [...] Church properlie; but onlie, a par [...] of it. And in like manner, whe [...] speaking of the Church symbolical he saith it is she onlie whose testimonie is of so great To. 1. li. 2. c. 20. vt suprà ad lit. d. authoritie tha [...] she can certifie who are authors o [...] the bookes of scripture, that so [...] doth not exclude another authori­tie that is within; (for example, th [...] vnanimous consent of Fathers whereof he speakes heere in the words obiected; their authoritie were sufficient to certifie the same as you may see by him, To. 1. Doct. 3. and li. 2. eiusdem to. c. 26. and Apudom­nes Catholicos valet & ligat vna sententia concors patrū: maximè autem temporis lon­gaeu [...] & patrum successione sir­mata, ita vt lo­cū fidei habeat. De quacre [...]en­da sub poenae perfidiaein sym­bolo scribetur Credo sanctam Ecclesiam. wal­den to 1. doctri­nâ 2. Verè enim ad omnes haere­ses compes­cendas, & om­nes tractatus & definitiones terminandas in materia fidei sola via est in qua errare non contingit con­cors patrū sen­tentia ab ipsis Apostolorū se­dibus vsque ad nostratempora fideliter com­pilara. In hoc enim simile erit regnum caelo­rum, id est, ec­clesia catholica homini patri familias qui profert de the­sauro suo noua & vetera. li. 2. c. 25. els where,) but it excludes autho­ritie Without. Fourthlie he doth no [...] exclude generall Councells▪ by th [...] Christian world approued; and h [...] [Page 45] [...]t should, in Sainct Augustines [...]es, haue refused to subscribe to [...]h authoritie, or disputed against [...]t which the vniuersall Church [...]hat age beleeued and tought; he [...]t would not haue beleeued what [...]s by so great authoritie proposed, [...]d bene thought madde rather then [...]rthie the name of man. Fiftlie, [...]her doth he exclude from infal­ [...]litie, and power to abolish he­ [...]es, the Gospels, and other parts scripture; and yet these be not [...]t instrument or engine which he [...]akes of; so that you cannot build [...] argument on those words, to [...]e infallibilitie awaie from all but [...] Fathers. Sixtlie, notwithstan­ [...]g that Councells, and the present [...]urch, are infallible, it may be said [...]the consent of the Fathers or [...]he whole symbolicall Church, [...]h abolish all heresie; because faith [...]re readilie giues assent vnto that [...]ch is so vniuersallie proposed. [...]derstandings (not so well dispo­ [...] before,) doe quicklie stoope in [...] case, to giue reuerence to the [...]h; and such as doe not, are con­demned [Page 46] of all; and so confound [...] that they dare no more openlie p [...] fesse their errour: whence it co [...] to passe, that none making este [...] either of the doctrine or of th [...] who stubbornlie doe persist in it, degrees it is abolished. And this one of those glorious prerogati [...] which Waldensis so much cōme [...] in the Church. Besides the fores [...] readines in the vnderstanding wh [...] it is by grace well disposed, or [...] lesse repugnance to render obedie [...] when it cannot with any shew p [...] tend reason for the refusall, there d [...] appeare too more fullie in t [...] proponent the power of vni [...] which is in it selfe a dispositio [...] more plentifull participation of [...] spirit; and brings with it grea [...] force to conquer opposition. Vnd [...] standings well disposed, yeild p [...] sentlie when the Councell speak [...] when the present Church hath [...] ceaued, and vniuersallie appro [...] the Councell, there is ex parte s [...] cti, more adhesion; and yet m [...] when the consent of all former a [...] is added and vnited: and more [...] [Page 47] there was in those that had, Gradus adhae­sionis ex parte subiecti. as the [...]choolemen speake, euidentiam in [...]ttestante. S. Marke knew the Gos­ [...]ell which he wrote, to be true, yet, [...]hat the faithfull more easilie might [...]eleeue it, he had it Vide to. 1. doct. 3. & to. 3. li. 2. c. 20. & S. Hieron. Ca­tol. script. in Marco. approued, [...]s S. Hierom doth relate, by S. Pe­ [...]er. S. Paul knew the truth in the [...]uestion moued at Antioch about [...]ircumcision, yet to make the cre­ [...]ibilitie more appeare and more con­ [...]incing, he went with it to the Coū ­ [...]ell at Hierusalem where it was Act. 15. [...]efined. And the Pastors there kne­we too, what was the truth, yet [...]or the greater weight of Authori­ [...]ie they added testimonies of Scri­ [...]ture. The scripture many times [...]rings testimonies of scripture for confirmation, as this Author sho­weth excellentlie to. 1. l. 2. c. 20. and our blessed Sauiour himselfe in con­ [...]irmation of his resurrection cited Moyses and the Prophets. When parts [...]re vnited, Bishops in Councell, particular Churches in the vniuer­sall; whole ages in the Symbolicall; [...]ater with most Auncient; all vnder [...]one eternall Word becomming one [Page 48] speaker, and vttering in the language of all Nations, as it were with one mouth, in one spirit, one and th [...] same thing; no man that perceaue [...] it, morallie can, dissent. This proponent hath a commaunding powe [...] ouer a wise mans vnderstanding; an [...] it is a great engine to confound errour; in which great engine he tha [...] should denie there were many pa [...] ticular engines able to confoun [...] Heresie, wronges diuers particula [...] in the companie, vnlesse you esteeme it no wronge to denie that honour and abilitie to Prophets and Apostles.

ECclesia vniuersalis habet fidem indefectibilem, non q [...] dem in generali synodo congregata quam aliquoties err [...] percepimus, &c. Baro p. 366. ex wald. to. 1. li. 2. c. 19.

4. FOurthlie, to the same purpose [...] of remouing infallibilitie fro [...] the present Church, and Councell [...] he is cited out of another place speaking thus. The vniuersall Chur [...] hath faith which cannot faile, not indeed assembled in a generall syn [...] which wee haue vnderstoode to ha [...] [Page 49] failed sometimes &c. In which cita­ [...]n, abruptlie broken of for aduan­ [...]ge, the Authors speach is man­ [...]d, and the parts (such as be re­ [...]rsed) are ill putt together; so that [...] intent and meaning cannot be [...]ceaued; as the learned reader [...]y obserue by looking on his [...]rds, related in the (p) addition. Etsi lex na­turae certissima est quam ge­ [...]t homines scriptam in cordibus suis vt refert Apost. [...]. 1. multo magis lex Christi habet certissimum inter­ [...]amentum suum in cordibus fidelium succedentium sibi [...] ab initio nascentis Ecclesiae & temporibus Apostolorum vs­ [...]in sempiternum, secundum quod per Prophetam dicit [...]minus, hoc testamentum quod testabor ad illos dando leges [...]s in cordibus eorum & in sensibus eorum scribam eas. Quod [...]onens Ambrosius, ô verè inquit testator aeternus qui [...]ris in cordibus leges affigit suas, & scribit in sensibus, [...]ihil aliud cogitare nisi diuina praecepta possimus, [...] aliud sentire nisi Dei oracula debeamus. Walden. li. [...] 8 and continuing his discourse; Haec est, saies he, Eccle­ [...] [...]ymbolica, Ecclesia Christi inquam Catholica, & Aposto­ [...] [...]mater credentium populorum, quae fidem habet indefect: bi­ [...] [...]ecundum promissum Christi ad Petrum qui tunc fi­ [...]m gessit Ecclesiae. Ego rogaui pro te Petre vt non deficiat [...]tua. Non est ergo specialis Ecclesia non Africana vt [...]atus dixit. Nec vtique particularis illa Romana; sed [...]ersalis Ecclesia, non quidem in generali synodo con­ [...]ata, quam aliquotiens errasse percepimus, velut illa [...]ninensis congregata sub Tauro praefecto, & illa Con­ [...]inopolitana sub Iustiniano minore tempore Sergij Papae secundum Bedam, & quaedam aliae: sed est Ecclesia [...] Christi Catholica per totum mundum dispersa à baptismo Christi per Apostolos & caeteros successores eorum a [...] haec tempora deuoluta, quae vtique veram fidem conti­net, & testimonium Christi fidele, sapientiam praesta [...] paruulis, inter extremos errores stabilem retinens verita­tem. c. 19. in principio. [Page 50] That others also may conceaue the same; it is to be obserued that Wal­densis is disputing there against Wi­ckleff, about the Church which is the Creed wee professe to beleeue and is therefore by him called th [...] Church symbolicall. Wickleff consi­dering that the faith of it is to be in­deficient, it being still true to saie there is such a Church or congregation would haue it to be the Quod Ec­clesia nostra symboliba est Ecclesia Ca­tholica. Titu­lus Cap. 17. li. 2. Mugit acriter (wickleffus) contra Papam & Pastores Ecclesiae sub titulo iustae app [...] lationis Ecclesiae Christi quae est obiectum fidei Christ [...] nae, de qua articulus est in symbolo Credo Sanctam Ecclesiam Catholicam. Difficultas autem eius est ista. Quan [...] credere debemus Ecclesiam Sanctam Catholicam ta [...] quam fidem, & iterum credere debemus quòd quodli [...] membrum istius Ecclesiae sit praedestinatum ad gloriam, credere debemus quod iste Papa vel Episcopus sit me [...] brum Ecclesiae, credere debemus quod repugnat ipsum peccatum finalis impoenitentiae cadere. Haec Wicklef. Actor. Sub hoc globo verborum, vnà cum praesumpto s [...] Ecclesia symbolica &c. Initium capitis 17. Prima ergo di [...] cultas, de quidditate huius Ecclesia symbolicae, quam vti [...] credere debemus &c. Ibidem. Predestinate [Page 51] onlie who do finallie perseuer in the faith. Waldensis ouer and aboue an indeficiencie, doth auouch (and according to Scripture, Matt. vlt. Luc. 10. Ioan. 15. & 21. Act. 20. Cor. 1.12. Ephes. 4. &c.) that it is to teach and giue testimonie of the truth, in that sort that all may learne of it. And therefore it is to be a visible Congregation Ecclesia est fidelium congre­gatio. It inuo­lues à Hierar­chie, Ephes. 4 Who told Wickleff that all the beleeuers, the predestina­ted only ex­cepted, do fall from the faith before they die? or Societie, Hiera­chicallie disposed. Whence he de­termines it to be, according to the words of the Creed it self, the Ca­tholike or Vniuersall Church, that is, the wholeranke or companie of the faith­full people successiuelie descending from the first assemblie made by Christ in the bank of Iordan, vntill our times, and from henceforth vntill the end of the world; and reaching into all partes of the world wheresoeuer the shining testi­monie of the faith of Christ the head and author, is kindled. Ibidem.

In which description, by him the­re proued out of scripture, and con­firmed by the testimonie of S. Au­gustine, he hath comprehended a two-fold vniuersalitie; one loci, of place; another temporis, of time: as [Page 52] is more distinctlie there specified in the same chapter by himselfe. And the benefit of this vniuersalitie he [...] saith, is, vt (t) sciamus discretè quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia veramque haben [...] doctrinam fidei; that wee may knowe distinctlie (as, a communitie so vni­uersall is found easilie) which is the true Church of Christ and hauing the true doctrine of faith. Heresies are li­mited, as he shewes, for time; and place: but the Symbolicall Church, is both waies vniuersall. And to it when heresies arise, Ad hanc Ecclesiamergo quae per totum mūdum vnam habet doctrinā Apostolicam, omnes fideles intonante noua haeresi debent habere recur­sum; ipsi enim (Apostoli) cū vna sana doctrina, adhuc manente, imbuerunt totam Ec­clesiam, & ob hoc tota Ecclesia Catholica etiam Aposto­lica nominatur. Walden. c. 18. fideles omnes debe [...] habere recursum, all faithfull must haue recourse, as he saith in the next Cha­pter. The reason is, because she hath c. 18. vt suprà ad lit. q. in her heart the Gospell, written by the holie Ghost, together with a most certaine interpretation of the Chri­stian lawe; and also giues Addit adhuc Ecclesia symbolica, id est, quam tenem [...] in dubijs credere sub poenae perfidiae: addit enim Ecclesi [...] sic dictae communiter (id est, communi rationi Ecclesiae [...] omnibus Ecclesijs abstracta) rationem vnius fidelis & indu­ [...]bitantis testimonij: & hoc ratione qua est vna. Sic enim [...]credimus vnam sanctam Ecclesiam, non quidem gente vel patria, sed professione vnam & fide, de qua (fide) vnicum [...]cunctis gentibus reddit testimonium. cap. 18. Nam & hoc est credere Ecclesiam Catholicam, credere eam habere veram [...]fidem de Deo & vera Sacramenta. Ibidem. Ratione ergo qua Ecclesia est obiectum fidei Christianae, sic facit testi­monium abundanter de Christo cuilibet eam vel secun­dum eam credenti. Ibidem. Definita veritas antequam ha­beatur pro definita plus exigit, sc. vltra authoritatem Scripturae & Spiritus sancti reuelationem, fidem in dictis assu­mentis quod non extorqueat, & industriam quod per elu­sionem non seducatur aut non fingat; & hoc ipsum est quod sponsus ille Ecclesiae sponsae reliquit in dotem dicens. Ecc [...] [...]go vobiscum sum omnibus diebus. Non dixit recum sum, sc. cum aliqua singulari persona, sed vobiscum sum, cum to­ [...]a Ecclesia Catholica & Apostolica quae seduci non potest [...]ec seducere, & habet fidele testimonium de Christo, & no­ [...]it omnia mysteria Sponsi sui. cap. 19. vide etiam suprà pag. 49. cer­taine testimonie to the truth.

Wee cannot addresse our selues to the Predestinate, for instruction, [...]or absolution, for orders; wee know not who they be, nor how to finde thē out. They be not the Sym­bolicall wickliffs Ar­gument, The predestinate do perseuer in the faith, Ergo they be the Symbo­licall Church; Is like this; A mans soule is rationall, Ergo a mans soule is a man. Church, they haue not all [...]he conditions of it. Neither is any [...]articular Church, or Congregation; The Church symbolicall: no, not a Ge­ [...]erall Councell. A Councell is not [...]till in being; they be celebrated on­ly [Page 54] sometimes, whereas the Symboli­call Church, is to be still. So likewise is, the Church diffused or Vniuersall, Dan. 2. Matth. 16. Ioan. 14. Ephes. 4. And, against a Councell, or a parti­cular Church, he that were disposed to cauill would pretend that faith were not allwaies in it, and it there­fore at that time, no Church; (for Ecclesia is fidelium congregatio;) whe­reas the Church symbolicall is in [...] times, neuer failing: which thing not­withstanding doth agree well vnto the Church vniuersall; which is in [...] times existent, and in faith, indeficient Esay 59. Ierem. 31. Ezech. 37. Dan. 1 Matth. 16. & 28. Ioan. 14. & 16. Ti [...] 1. ep. 3. c. Ephes. 4. She only, hath The prede­stinated preci­selie haue them not all. See the Disp li. 1. c. 5. 6. 7. li. 2 c. 2. 3 li. 3. c. 1. 6. [...] the conditions of, and indeed is, th [...] symbolicall Church.

This construction of the word [...] of Waldensis, to one that reads th [...] whole discourse in him, is plai [...] and obuious. This, which hetherto I haue described, This, I saie, th [...] Catholik and Apostolicall Church [...] Christ, the mother of beleeuing people which hath faith indeficient, accordin [...] to the promise of Christ to Peter [...] [Page 55] [...]hen did beare the figure of the Church, (I haue asked for thee Peter that thy faith doth not faile) is the symbolicall Church. Hauing established this tenet, he presentlie drawes from it an inferen­ce, Non est ergo &c. that, being the vniuersall Church, it is not anie par­ticular; as the African, or the Ro­man particular Church, or Dioces. vide Disput, pag. 619. ex In­noc. 3. These are no more the symbolicall Church then particulars are the vni­uersall. Neither it is a generall sy­nod; such haue erred sometimes, one at Ariminum; another at Con­stantinople; and some others. But it is the Catholik Church of Christ dispersed ouer all the world, come downe from the baptisme of our Sauiour by the Apostles and others their successors to th [...]se ti­mes; which Catholik Church veri­lie doth containe veram fidem true faith (there is one thing, required to the Symbolicall Church, and that which Wickleff also thought necessarie; but that is not all:) and testimonium Chri­sti fidele, the faithfull testimonie of Christ: (there is an other: and the ex­ercise of both followes) giuing wis­dome to the litle ones, amongst extreame [Page 56] errours retaining the truth firme. The Deuil by wickleff sugge­sted pestilent inuentions to abbet Rebellion, and Schisme. Praescitus non habetpotestatem, &c. Nullus est Dominus ciuilis, nullus est Praela­tus, nullus est E­piscopus, dum est in peccato mor­tali. Recitantur in Concilio Constant. Sess. 8. & apud Wald. passim. See aboue, pag. 50. lit. r. Here is the sence of his words to the full: and for my part I see no more in them.

But you that can gase vpon chime­raes, would persuade vs there are two things for your purpose; the one, that the Church of Rome may faile or erre; and the other, that no Generall Councells haue infallibilitie. The former of these you ground vpon that part of his inference; nec vtique particularis illa Romana; neither also is it the particular Roman Church: the later vpon those other, quam (Syno­dum) aliquoties errasse percepimus &c. which (Synod) wee haue vnderstood sometimes to haue erred, as that of Ari­minum gathered vnder Taurus the Prefect, and that Constantinopolitan vnder Iustinian the yonger, and some other. These two parcels then, and his opinion in these two points, are next to be considered. I take them in order.

5. Nec vtique Suprà ad lit. q. particularis ill [...] Romana. The forme of speach is ne­gatiue; and the author by it denie [...] something of the Roman Church a [...] [Page 57] [...]s a particular Church; the Que­ [...]on (since you will needs make a [...]estion of it) is Whether he denies [...]o be the Symbolicall Church; as it [...]eares he doth by what hath [...]ne said of this place hetherto; or, [...]ether he denies it perpetuall con­ [...]ncie in the faith, and indefectibili­ [...]. In answer to which question if [...]u turne to the 48. Chapter, whose [...]e is, de praerogatiua perpetuae immu­ [...]atis Romanae Ecclesiae in fide Christi [...]ab omni (bb) contagione haeresis il­libatae; 1 [Page 58] you shall finde auouched, an [...] proued, that Ecclesia Romana non p [...] test in fide deficere, the Church [...] Rome cannot faile in the faith. A [...] further, I affirme boldlie in the na [...] of Christ, and Christ aiding the Rom [...] Church, that it is in the doctrine [...] Christ impeccable. The origen of th [...] he refers there to our Sauiou [...] prayer and his graunt: and concl [...] ding the Chapter he saith, Ibidem. vi­de Sixt. Sen. in Cyr. & Pits. de biblioth. wald. Cy [...] not without cause extolles the Rom [...] faith, when expounding those w [...] (portae inferi non praeualebunt;) te [...] Peter quoth he, it is said the gates [...] Hell shall not preuaile against it; ( [...] Church:) according to this promise [...] our Lord the Apostolicall Church of [...] ter remaines cleane from all mislead [...] and hereticall circumuention aboue [...] the Prelates, and Bishops, and aboue Primates of Churches and of Apos [...] in her chiefe Pastors in most abund [...] faith, and in the Authoritie of Pe [...] and whereas other Churches are comp [...]d [Page 59] with errour, she alone established [...]moueablie doth raigne, imposing si­ [...]ace and stopping the mouthes of all He­ [...]tickes: and wee by necessitie of salua­tion, not by pride deceaued nor inebria­ [...]d with the wine of pride, doe acknow­ledge and professe openlie with her the [...]me of truth and Apostolicall tradi­tion. Hereby appeares what Wal­ [...]nsis thought of the Church of [...]ome; and by those words secun­ [...]m Domini professionem, and those [...]abilita inquassabiliter, he sawe which himselfe had professed Non po­test in fide de­ficere. vt suprà. [...]efore) that this immunitie and ho­ [...]our was to continue. And by this, [...]nd much more which you may [...]ade in that Chapter where the thing [...] professedlie discoursed of, I [...]aue as manifest, that you did mistake him in your first preten­ [...]e, which was about the Church of Rome.

Non quidem generali Synodo con­ [...]egata, quam Sūprà ad li. q. aliquoties errasse [...]rcepimus, velut illa Ariminensis [...]ngregata sub Tauro praefecto, & illa [...]onstantinopolitana sub Iustiniano mi­ [...]ore tempore Sergij Papae secuudum Be­dam, [Page 60] [...] [Page 61] [...] [Page 60] & quaedam aliae. Here againe you will haue the thing disputed, what he denies of a synod, and what he affirmes. He denies that it is the symbolicall Church; this is plaine by the coherence of the discourse, as I declared before. He affirmes of ge­nerall Synods that some haue erred, as the Constantinopolitan vnder Iu­stinian; the Ariminian vnder Tau­rus, and some others. Whence it fol­lowes that the Church so assembled is not the symbolicall Church; for that neuer erreth. Holie, diuine faith, is in her essence; and therefore as her essence or being cannot faile, no more can her faith. She hath fidem indefectibilem, such a faith as by rea­son of our Sauiours Matth. 16. care cannot be deficient: and without exception of any time, without admitting corru­ption to the preiudice of her integri­tie, she retaines the truth euer Suprà pag. 49. steedfast; whereas a Councell or as­semblie may be corrupted and want integritie; as appeares in those which he speakes of.

Moreouer there are vnder the name of Generall Councells (as ap­peares [Page 61] by him in this place, and els­where) some that are sincere; some that are not. That of Nice was sin­cere, and was generall: that of Con­stantinople vnder Iustinian, was not sincere, yet is it here putt in the number of those, which he calls ge­nerall. The infallibilitie of such as are sincere, and approued by the suc­cessor of S. Peter, the Pope, wee maintaine; the infallibilitie of all that are vnder the name of generall, wee doe not. Neither doth Walden­sis contradict vs in the former part, which is of the sincere and approued. He saith indeed that some which goe by the name of generall haue erred; you may adde if you please, that o­thers (like them) hereafter may. But your argument will not hold; Some, therefore all. Some men stagger in their faith, men denie God some­times; you are not wise if you vn­derstand this of all men, or of wise men.

When Wickleff obiected as you doe, walden to. 1. li. 2. c. 26. Peccauit scimus Ariminense Concilium, peccauit & Nicenum Thra­ciae, the Ariminian Councell wee know [Page 62] did amisse, and so did the Nicene of Thrace; The author (the same whose authoritie you are medling with) answers, peccauit vtique magnus exer­citus Angelorum &c. a great armie verilie of Angells did amisse, yea and the holie number of Apostles, euen in apostacie, after they had receaued the faith, (before the comming of the holie Ghost, the spirit of truth, to teach them all truth;) and yet neither is the companie of other Angels there­fore depriued of their felicitie; nor the assemblie of the Apostles, regularlie without doubt, of the principalitie of the Church; nor a generall Councell, of its authoritie. Thus in the 26. Chapter; and in the next, which is the 27. he deliuers his minde touching the mat­ter whereof wee are disputing, in these words, Non dubitat Ecclesia san­cta Dei, toties assistere sibi Spiritum sanctum quoties congregati fuerint au­thoritate plenario in nomine Christi ad fidei dubium resoluendum; The holie Church of God doubteth not that the holie Ghost assistes her as oft as they by full authoritie be assembled in the name of Christ to resolue a doubt of faith. [Page 63] This was not onelie certaine, with him; but it is, he saith, a thing which the Catholike Church holds as a mat­ter out of question; non dubitat; she doubts not of it. And a litle after, Ple­narijs Concilijs Ecclesiae, si tamen ma­neant incorrupta, Spiritus sanctus ad­est, & definit de fide. The holie Ghost is present vnto plenarie or generall Coun­cells of the Church if so they continue sincere or perfect, and doth define of faith. And if this be so; then, not ex­teriour onlie, as some would shift it of, but interiour obedience is due to the decree; for such obedience wee owe to the holie Ghost, who is present assisting as was before said; and, as it is further heere ex­pressed, doth make the definition, definit. And consequentlie this Au­thor had reason to saie (as he doth in the same Chapter afterwards) that it Multitudi­ni ergo creden­tium est potius adhaeredū, quae cum claruerit quod in Christi nomine cōgre­getur, ab eius decreto vnani­mi non nisi cum periculo declina­tur. c. 27. is daungerous to swarue from such decrees.

To this purpose, in the Cha­pter whence you dispute, he pon­ders those words of the first Co­uncell assembled in Hierusalem, (which gaue the forme to all o­thers [Page 64] and taught them how to vn­derstand our Sauiours Ioh. 14. & 16. promise) It hath seemed good to the holie Ghost and to vs. waelden­dens. to. 1. li. 2. c. 19. marke; saith he; they said not, it seemed good to the ho­lie Ghost and the Church, but to the ho­lie Ghost and to vs who heere doe re­present the Church: and yet, not to vs without the holie Ghost, but to the ho­lie Ghost in himselfe, and to the when this authoritie co­mes in, the fortè sic, and fortè nō, haue no place, The Holie Ghost cannot be de­ceaued. What he doth auouch is most certai­ne. Remouentur dubitationes. Be mindfull of this note when you come to S. Aug. holie Ghost in vs in the Church, who in doubts of faith is neuer wanting to the Church, Christ promising to her, the holie Ghost shall teach you all truth. And there­fore what seemeth good to him, the same also by his instigation, seemeth good to vs.

That he did acknowledg infalli­bilitie in sincere approued Councells, it is further manifest by that he held of the Popes iudgmēt. If he thought the resolution of doubts in faith were to be made by him, and that his de­cision was a truth so certaine that it could not be gainesaid, he without question made no lesse esteeme of a generall and approued Councell whe­rein the Popes iudgment and deter­mination is included; and consequen­tlie, [Page 65] when he questions or reiects the authoritie of Councells, he meanes not those wherein the Pope defines, or such as he approues; and so, not all that are vnder the name of gene­rall, but some onelie as hath beene said before. Now, that he had that estimation which I haue mentio­ned, of the Popes iudgment and de­definition, it is manifest by the 47. Chapter, where professedlie he doth vndertake to proue it, bringing to this purpose manie testimonies out of S. Augustine, S. Hierome, Rufinus, Origen, the Bishops of Africk, and o­thers. The title of the Chapter is, Quod Papa habet ab antiquo potestatem insringibilem ad determinandum fidei veritates & debellandum & cancellan­dum omnes falsitates haereticas. And in the verie Orthodo­xi omnes ad iudices Christi currunt vica­rios, & ordina­tè requirunt vt tandem planam teneant verita­tem. Propter hoc enim vt verè credunt, licet Doctores, & vltra eos E­piscopos, & in­ter omnes mor­tales singillatim acceptos pete­re Papam, cu­ius moderamē & decisio pro irrefragabili ve­ro tenebatur à Patribus. Apud ipsum enim piè credebant to­tius fidei no­strae latere my­steria, & pectus eius imbutum butyro illo prophetico, quo sciret reproba­re malum & eligere bonum. Walden. to. 1. li. 2. c. 47. Nouit (Hieronymus) apud Pa­pam Romanum authoritatem este ad emendandum fidem incongruam, vel ad probandum Catholicam: & postquam à tanto Apostolatu haberetur vt recta, sine dubio foret per null [...]maltum violanda. Ad eiusdem quoque Damasi Papa doctrinam tanquam ad infallibilem fidei regulam Catholici Episcopi illo tempore suos aduersarios haereticos coëge­runt. Ibidem: vbi etiam refert illud quod suprà dictum est ex Hier. de Sancti Marci Euangelio per Sanctum Petrum appro­bato. beginning he saith, Papae moderamen & decisio pro irrefra­gabili vero tenebatur à Patribus, the Popes direction and decision was by the Fathers (marke that, by the Fathers) held for a truth which cannot be contra­dicted.

To the same purpose are manie things added in the next Chapter, [Page 66] which is of the prerogatiue of perpetuall immunitie in the Church of Rome; whe­re amonge other things he saith, that Propter hanc incorruptionem & claritatem famo­sam, omnes viri Catholici, quantumcunque magni, quan­tumlibet sancti, simul & authoritate territi magnae sedis, ab hac susceperunt in dubijs fidei documenta terrifica, cap. 48. all Catholick men, how great, how holie soeuer, haue from that See, receaued documents in doubts of faith; and that it is, as he speakes in the words of Cyrill, stabilita in­quassabiliter, so established that it cannot be moued or shaken; and more to the same purpose, which in the additions you may reade. So that I may leaue this as sufficientlie de­monstrated out of his booke, that you were mistaken in the sence of the words obiected.

Out of that which hath beene re­lated from him, it appeares also (that I may leaue a note for such as vpon this occasion may chaunce hereaf­ter to looke on him) first that he puts diuers degrees of adhesion (deuines expresse it by certitudo maior & ma­ior ex parte subiecti,) respectiuelie to verities diuerslie proposed. Secondlie thar, with him these proponents are infallible, vizt: the Church symbo­licall; that part of it which is now present, including both Pastors and people; a perfect and syncere gene­rall Councell; and the Church of Rome as it is head, or the Pope de­fining. Thirdlie that the Pope, Coun­cell, and present Church, when it will seeke the veritie of anie point of faith, called into question, or the authoritie of any writing or scri­pture to knowe whether it be diui­ne or no, is to looke into the sym­bolicall Church which hath all the Christian lawe, with the meaning, writ­ten in her heart, by the spirit of the li­uing God, and there to finde it: not in euerie page of this greate booke, not expressed in the faith of euerie part; [Page 68] but in the booke. And, if after the search made, it be proposed, by the Pope in a generall Councell by the present Church receaued; or by the Pope in Councell to the Church, all are according to his principles to receaue and to beleeue it. Fourthlie, that the present Church finding and proposing the veritie, and the sym­bolicall (in whom she finds it) be­leeuing and testifying the same; doe make vp one organ, where by the holie Ghost the spirit of truth doth auouch it to the world. Fiftlie that besides the authorities before men­tioned, all contained in the Church, (wherein our sauiour Ego vo­biscum omni­bus diebus. Mat 28. qui lo­quitur in me Christus. 2 Co­rim. 13. Pare­cletum dabit vobis vt maneat vobiscum in aete [...]nū, spi­ritum veritatis Ioh 14. In vo­bis erit. Ibidem. Non enim vos estis qui loqui­mini sed Spiri­tus Patris ve­stri qui loqui­tur in vobis, Matt. 10. likewise and his spirit be,) there be in it also diuers other degrees of authoritie; as, of generall Councells not inclu­ding the Popes approbation; not by the Church, or him, disappro­ued; of particular Churches, espe­ciallie Ecclesia­rum Catholi­carum, inter quas sanê illae quae Apostoli­cas sedes habe­re, & epistolas accipere me­ruerunt, &c. S. Aug. 2. Doct. Chri. c. 8. such as the Apostles ha­ue liued in; and amongst them chieflie the Roman, (though con­sidered with abstraction from the Popes authoritie.) by reason of the traditions left in her by the two [Page 69] great Apostles S. Peter and S. Paul: of nationall or prouinciall Synods, and the like: all which according to this Author, haue their waight; though not the same with the Pope in Councell. I omit to pleade further that Waldensis was at Constance in the Councell whereof I spake befo­re treating of Cameracensis; and pas­se vnto the next.

§. IV.

1. Panormitan the Lawier, speakes of a Councell not approued by the Pope, nor by the Church diffused: which Councells the Question meddles not withall. 2. It were possible, he thinks, for God, considering his absolute power, to con­serue the true faith in one man or woman. 3. Antoninus his mind touching Councells.

PVto tamen quod si Papa moueretur melioribus rationibus & authoritatibus quàm Concilium, quod standum esset sententiae suae. Nam & Concilium potest errare, sicut a [...]iàs erra­uit super matrimonium contrahendum inter raptorem & ra­ptum. Et infrà Nec obstat si dicatur quod Concilium Generale non potest errare, quia Christus orauit pro Ecclesia sua vt non deficeret &c. Quia dico quod licet Concilium Generale reprae­sentet totam Ecclesiam vniuersalem, tamen in veritate ibi non est verè Ecclesia vniuersalis, sed repraesentatiuè; quia vniuersalis Ecclesia constituitur ex collectione omnium fidelium. Vnde om­nes fideles orbis constituunt istam Ecclesiam vniuersalem, cuius cap [...]t & sponsus est Christus. Et infrà. Et ista est Ecclesia qua no potest errare (credendo scilice [...]; controuersia autem est de errore in docendo; siue de infallibili assistentia ijs ex­hibita quibus incumbit officium docendi, congregationem hanc vniuersalem) Vnde possibile est quod vera fides Christi remaneret in vno solo: ita quod verum est dicere, quod fides non deficit in Ecclesia; sicut ius vniuersitatis potest manere in vno solo, alijs peccantibus. Baro p. 367. ex Nicolao Panormitane.

[Page 70]1. PANORMITAN. This man is called from the Canon-lawe to saie some thing in a matter apper­taining to Deuinitie, and two things are wrunge out of him whilst he Vide 36. q. 2. & Almain. Pot. Eccl. c. 17. mistakes a Canon of a particular Councell, which wee must answer vnto. One is, that a Councell may erre; another, that it is possible the faith of Christ remaine in one onelie.

Concerning the first; it is one thing to saie that a Councell may erre, and another thing to saie that a generall Councell may; he saith a Councell may, and in proofe thereof makes instance in that of Meaux, which was a particular one, not a generall. Againe; it is one thing to saie that a [Page 71] generall Councell may; another thing to saie that a generall Coun­cell confirmed by the Pope or by the vniuersall Church receaued, may erre.

Now that the Councell which he speakes of (be it that he may be vnderstood of a generall) is not a Councell by the Pope ap­proued or by the Church recea­ued; I argue from hence, that he compares the Pope and Councell together as distinct, considering the Pope without the Councell and the Councell without the Pope, tou­ching which comparison he hath two positions, the one, that Panor. de electione cap. si­gnificasti. in his quae sunt iuris positiuï, Papa est supra Concilium, in things appertaining to the positiue lawe the Pope is aboue the Councell; that Councell sure, which includes not him; or his authoritie. The other (which he did not himself adhere to much lesse proue; vide su­prà pag. 70.) in concernentibus fidē Ibidem. Concilium est supra Papam, in things appertaining to faith the Councell is aboue the Pope; and presentlie he be­gins to tell how the Pope is to [Page 72] conforme himselfe, vnles perchance his reasons be better; where againe it is manifest that the Pope was not included in the Councell which he spake of. So that if any thing be col­lected out of him to contradict vs it is by vertue of the second part. Vn­les perchance you thinke this a good argument, the vniuersall Church can­not erre, as he affirmes, therefore an approued Councell may. And if you should admit the forme (which Lo­gicians will not doe) you must ad­mit this; the vniuersall Church is that Church which cannot erre, therefore S. Paul might erre, and so might the Euangelists and all the Fathers and Bishops that euer were. For they were not the vniuersall Church; though they were in it.

Neither will the second part, or assertion of his, serue the turne; sin­ce it is onlie de possibili, an assertion of a possibilitie; and this too, not de lege ordinaria, since the comming of the holie Ghost and establishing of Pa­stors and doctors that wee be not waue­ring; but de potentiâ absolutâ; if the power of al mightie God (remouing [Page 73] in our mind, all suppositions and pro­mises now made,) be considered ab­solutelie, in it selfe. In which case, the lawier makes this Argument; once the faith remained in one (so he thought it did in the time of the passion; as if all Christians there pre­sent besides our B. Lady, and those also which our Sauiour had persua­ded all the time and in all places that he preached; and all which Reuersi au­tem 72. &c. Luc. 10. the disciples had instructed in what part of the world soeuer, had at once lost their faith: yet the lawier who takes it vpon trust, will suppose it;) once according to that imagination, the faith remained in one, therefore it is not a thing impossible in it selfe, the­refore it may be (though not accor­ding to the course which our sa­uiour hath established, yet) accor­ding to Gods absolute power. If he hath not insinuated this absolute po­wer vnder these termes so farre as Camera­censis Quaest. de Resumpta, vt suprà lit. m. Cameracensis and Ockam. Dial. p. 1. li 5. c. 31. fine. & 3. p. li. 3. c. 13. Ockam, when­ce he superficiallie gleaned it, in the like occasion haue donne; you are too beare with him, as being a La­wier, not accustomed to the termes [Page 74] of schoole-deuines.

For my part I cannot thinke so poorelie of him as to imagine that he did not knowe the Church is a kingdome which Dan. 7. shall not be cor­rupted, that the gates of Hierusalem shall be Esa. 60 & 62. open still, and the wat­chmen which God hath placed on her walles shall neuer hold their peace, that our Sauiour hath established a Hierarchie Ephes. 4. till all meete in vnitie of faith, that euen in the hardest ti­mes of all there shall be Matth. 24. electi cho­sen people, and that the Apocal. 20. vide Disp. p. 53. camp of the Saincts and beloued cittie shall be diffused ouer the breadth of the earth, Matt. 16. and constantlie (to the glorie of her Prince and Founder,) in that extreamest tryall maintaine her faith and alleageance against Hell gates, when the deuil is let loose, and doth oppose her with all his art and furie.

The inferēce Panormitan makes vpon the case which he said possible in the sence before declared, is a strange one; for he will haue it in that supposition to be true to saie fides nō deficit in Ecclesia faith in the Church faileth not; as if one man were fidelium [Page 75] Congregatio, a Church, a Hierarchie; subiect and superiour, priest and clerk. That it should beginne, or end, or be continued in one, as a line is begunne or ended or continued with a point, a diuisible by an indi­uisible, were something; but one person to be a Church, is as strange as it is for vnitie to be multitude, or an indiuisible to be deuided.

ANtoninus p. 3. tit. 23. c. 2. § 6. haec omnia quae a Panor­mitano dicta sunt de Papa, Concilijs, & Ecclesia vniuer­sali, amplectitur. Baro p. 368.

3. IN confirmation of the La­wiers supposed testimonie, the­re is cited Antoninus (the Question being not of lawiers but of Deuines) as subscribing to Panormitans do­ctrine of the Pope, Councels and vniuersall Church; or, as the Mini­ster speakes, imbracing it. Whereas he doth onlie recite Panormitans words, Notat Abbas de Sicilia quòd &c. and hauing repeated them, con­cludes, haec ille. So passing immediat­lie to another, Petrus de Ancharano &c. without more adoe. Yet since [Page 76] you will needes confound their opi­nions in this matter and make them both one; one, and the Deuine ra­ther, (the matter appertaining to Deuinitie,) may deliuer it for them both; which he doth in this tenour.

Antoninus. Ad illum pertinet San­ctum canoni­zare, ad quem pertinet quaestio­nes fidei deter­minare. Quod quidem planū est spectare ad Summum Pō ­tificem. S. An­toninus in sum­ma p. 3. tit. 22. c. 5. §. 5 lege e­tiam si placet §. 3. eiusdem tit. Apostoli in E­uangelijs & E­pistolis affir­mauerūt in om­ni doctrina Pe­trum esse loco Domini. Idem c. 6. §. 7. ex Cy­rillo. Quaeritur vtrum autho­ritas vniuersa­lis Ecclesiae in determinatio­ne fidei princi­paliter resideat in Papa. Res­pondet S. Tho­mas affirmati­ue 2. 2. q. 11. a. 2. ad 3. Post­quam aliqua essent authori­tate vniuersalis Ecclesiae deter­minata, si quis tali ordinatio­ni pertinaciter repugnaret, hae­reticus censeretur. Quae quidem authoritas principaliter residet in Summo Pontifice. Dicitur enim 24. q. 1. Quo­ties fidei ratio ventilatur, arbitror omnes fratres nostros & coepiscopos non nisi ad Petrum, id est, ad sui nominis authoritatem referri debere, & caetera vsque finem vt ha­bentur in S. Thoma loco cit. S. Antoninus c. citato §. 19. Sancti Patres in Concilio congregati nihil statuere potuis­sent, nisi authoritate Summi Pontificis interueniente; sine qua etiam Concilium congregari non potest. §. 20. ex co­dem S. Thom. li contra impugn. relig. To him appertaines the canonizing of Saints, to whom it be­longeth to determine questions touching the faith: which manifestlie appertai­nes vnto the Pope. (n) The question is whether the Authoritie of the vniuer­sall Church in determination of faith reside principallie in the Pope, Saint Thomas (they be Antoninus his words which I relate) answers affir­matiuelie, that, after things be deter­mined by the authoritie of the vniuer­sall Church, if any stubbornelie resist or withstand that ordination, he should be esteemed an Heretick. Which Autho­ritie is chieflie in the Pope. And to this tenet of Saint Thomas, Antoninus there subscribeth; denying to the the Bishops power to ordaine in this manner, or to call a Councell to this purpose, without the Popes Autho­ritie. Concilium non solum comprehendit Papam vt ca­put, quod est principale in Concilijs: sed etiam & reli­quum corpus Ecclesiae, vt alios Praelatos: de quo Conci­lio inquit Propheta; Non abscondi misericordiam tuam & veritatem tuam à Concilio multo. Idem tit. 23. c. 1. A Councell doth not include onlie the Pope as Head, which is chiefe [Page 77] in Councels; but the rest of the bodie wi­thall, as other Prelates. Of which Coun­cell the Prophet saith I haue not hid thy mercie and thy truth from a great Councell. A Concilijs vanitatis & malignitatis abscondit Deus misericordiam & veritatem: sed non abscondit à Conci­lio multorum, sc. tendentium ad vnum &c. Ibidem §. 1. From Councels of vanitie and malignitie God doth hïde his mercie and his truth: but he hideth them not from the Councell of many tending vnto one &c. Ea quae statuuntur in huiusmodi Concilijs generali­bus omnes fideles astringunt. Idem, eod tit. cap. 2. in prin­cipio. things con­stituted in such generall Councels oblige all the faithfull.

§. V.

1. Cusanus held the infallibilitie of generall decrees. 2. The words obiected out of him against vs, are indeed plainely for vs; as in the reading of them (they are at leingth in the Addition) it doth appeare.

CArdinalis Cusanus in Concilijs generalibus ad hoc vt eo­rum decreta à nobis acceptentur tanquam certa & infal­libilia, quasdam conditiones requirit &c. Ba [...]o. p 368.

1. CVSANVS. This man is brought to teach vs, and to teach the whole Church, the conditions of a generall Councell; as if none were good, but such as he liked of, and approued he was a yonge man when he wrote his booke, and Finit colle­ctio &c. quam sacro huic Ba­siliensi Conci­lio cum omni humilitate of­fero, nihil in omnibus verū aut defendendum pro vero iudicans seu as­serēs nisi quod ipsa sancta Sy­nodus catholi­cum & verum iudicauerit. Cu­sanus in fine Cōcordantiae suae Catholicae. earnest for the Councell of Basill, though he changed his minde Vide eius­dem Epist. ad Rodericum da Treuino. afterwards. Neither is the Question heere what be the conditions of a Councell; but, Whether a generall Councell which hath all conditions that are necessarie, and is by the Pope approued, be assisted to the definition of the truth and be [Page 79] infallible? in which matter wee shall easilie knowe Cusanus his minde.

In the third chapter, which you cite, he recites the words of Nico­las the first, terming such decrees Idem li. 2. de Concord c. 3. diuinitus inspiratas sententias, sen­tences inspired by God. And after, of himselfe he saith, Ibidem, si concordanti sententia aliquid fuerit definitum, per Spiritum Sanctum censetur inspiratum, & per Christum in medio congregato­rum in eius nomine praesidentem, in­fallibiliter iudicatum. If any thing be defined by an agreeing Sentence, it is esteemed inspired by the holy Ghost, and iudged or determined by Christ praesi­ding in the middes of them that are as­sembled in his name. This he declares in the Councell of Nice, whereof the great Conc. Chalc. act. 1. Councell of Chalce­don saith, that, the holie Ghost did did there certainlie remaine or sitt a­mongst the Fathers, and ordaine the things which were there ordained. And then concludes Cusan. c. 3. vt suprà. talia fuerunt om­nia orthodoxa Concilia, such haue bene all Councells orthodoxall.

As for the conditions he speakes of, none which he thought necessa­rie, [Page 80] be wanting in those generall Councells which wee maintaine. The presence of the fiue Patriarkes he doth not require but when they be Catholik, nor then neither, but for the more fullnes of the Councell. Others may be perfect which haue not all; but that which hath all, is, he saith, synodus Ibidem. perfectissima, most perfect in that kinde. One may haue the whole essence of a man, all the essentiall parts; and yet not be most perfect. Our Councells are not made in secret; they be assembled, and openlie, from all parts of the world wheresoeuer the Catholick Church is; and such as come may freelie spea­ke and are heard. They looke into scriptures, and former Councells, and Antiquitie, to finde the truth; and, though in the search it might appeare to some sooner then others, yet all in the end approue and pro­pose, it.

[Page 81]DEbet sacrum Concilium vniuersale, regulis Sancti Spiri­tus, tam in Canone Sacrae Scriptura ac praeteritis Conci­lijs apertis, dirigi, maximè in negotio fidei, quae vna & inua­riabilis necessario sicut fuit, permanebit: & scripturas ri­mari in dubijs, sicut in sexto vniuersali Concilio actum fuit, & alijs multis; & tunc definitio ex allegatis sumpta, ab­sque errore necessariò erit Vnde si ea non seruantur maximè libera omnium audientia, ac vbi atiqua attentarentur in syno­dis quae obuiarent fidei Romanae Ecclesiae; protestatio iustè, ac simul & appellatio ad futurum aliud Concilium fieri potest. Baro p. 369. expunctis tamen ijs quae diuerso charactere notantur.

2. NEither is there cause to fea­re that a Councell, assisted by the holie Ghost and defining, will contradict, either scripture, or the Ex hoc etiā elici potest, fi­dē Romanae Ec­clesiae, in nulla synodo vniuer­sali retractari posse. Cutan. Conc. li. 2. c. 4. Dicit Augusti­ [...]us li. 1. con. Donatistas, volens stabili fundamento ex de­ [...]isione vniuersalis Concilij fidem probare, Iam ne videar [...]umanis argumentis id agere &c. Idem c. 5. vid [...]s quanta [...]niuersalibus Concilijs authoritas inest, dum rectè cele­ [...]antur. Vnde Augustinus l. 1 Serm. con. Pelagianos, di­ [...], matris Ecclesiae hanc esse authoritatem, quod quisquis [...]ntra hunc inexpugnabilem murum arietat, ipse confrin­ [...]ut. Ibidem. faith of former times; he that [...]s chieflie interessed in the busines, vnderstands all things clearlie, and cannot contradict a veritie.

That which is obiected vpon oc­ [...]asion of S. Augustines words, that [Page 82] de verbis S. Augustini cum aliquo experi­mēto rerum &c. fusius agemus suo loco. a plenarie Councell may faile in the experiment of things, and in that case iudge amisse, makes nothing to the purpose; for wee dispute not of in­fallibilitie in things which may be found out by tryall or experiment; but in matters reuealed, and of faith.

§. VI.

Clemangis professed, to reuerence the autho­ritie of Councells; and only to propose some doubts for his instruction in some things tou­ching them.

NIcolaus de Clemangis in disputatione cum scholastico Pa­risiensi, quaedam etiam tradit quae cum doctrina Ponti­ficiorum de Conciliorum infallilibilitate, manifestè pugnant Baro p. 370.
Dicit Concilium generale errare posse in controuersijs morum Baro Ibidem.

CLEMANGIS. His worke i [...] Index libr. prohibit. Conc. Trid. forbidden; and his frind t [...] whom he directed it, perceaued i [...] came from Quanquam Deum ac con­sciētiam testa­ri liceat, nulla­tenus stoma­chato animo illa fuisse scrip­ta quod miror tibi visum esse, quia tamen vn­decun que hoc euenerit, ita ti­bi visum est, vt tuae quantum fas fuerit volū ­tati ac petitio­ni morem ge­ram, dulciora ac sedatiora e­nitar. Clemang. ad scholast. Pa­ris. p 599. edit Parisiensi, anno 1576. discontent; being forced as appeares by his owne Epistle Opressus nā ­que (vt nosti) ante aliquot annos aemulo­lorum insulta­tione me tunc grauissimè per­sequentium, ex vrbe illa fui ex­cedere compul­sus latebrasque à facie tempe­statis cōtra me iniustè admo­dum illic sae­uiētis alibi quae­rere. p. 600. latebras quaerere, to plaie, least [...] [Page 83] sight. He writes bitterlie against the Clergie; belike they made him flie. Touching Councells; he doth not contradict their authoritie; (how­soeuer he mistakes the manner of defending it:) but onlie writes vnto a freind to be informed better in it; protesting both to honour them, and to be readie to amend what in his writing should be thought amisse. Heare some of his owne words. Idem pa. 587. Verilie I reuerentlie receaue, and faith­fullie embrace, all Councells, as well such as longe agoe haue been duelie cele­brated, as also those which are celebra­ted now adaies: and God forbid that I should thinke or speake any sinister thing of them. Neither should I therefore be calumniated as lesse sincerelie esteeming them, in that for the instruction of my ignorance I seeke to know, and desire to haue declared vnto me, some things; that I may not only thinke of them well and faithfullie, but also according to the capacitie of my litle wit, trulie and wiselie speake of them. And a litle af­ter. Clemang. pa. 588. I desire to be taught by thee, whe­ther thou thinkest it must be beleeued as a Catholike veritie, that in those things [Page 84] which be of fact, or of manners, or of iudgments, a generall Councell can ne­uer be deceaued, as well as it is faithful­lie beleeued that it cannot erre in faith. And in the end. Idem pa. 598. alioquin teme­rariū esset mi­nus intellecta velle à sapien­toribus discere; quamuis etiam certè paratus sim, si ea quae me mouent du­bia explicando aliquid in radi­ce veritatis mi­nus fundatum aut alicuius fortasse scanda­dali illatiuum nimis astruere viderer, aut fi­deli admonitu illud eradere, aut ad lineam rectitudinis lima exactiori emendare. Ibi­dem. I intend (as I ha­ue oft alreadie said, neither am I loath to repeate it) in these or other writings to affirme nothing but that which may be altogeather agreeable to the Catho­like integritie. But in case I haue pro­posed, not affirming, but doubting; or arguing; any thing, lesse certaine or true, whereby I may be the more fullie informed of the certaintie, I thinke that should not be thought rashnes in me. And the rest which you finde cited in the Addition.

DIcit Christi assistentiam &c. ad solos sanctos & spiritua­les pertinere Baro p. 370. Non obscure innuit eam per­suasionem seu fiduciam de conciliorum infallibilitate qua multi tumescunt, esse Ecclesiae admodum perniciosam Idem p. 371.

ANd whereas he proposeth by waie of doubt, that holy mē on­ly were to be heard speaking out of a [Page 49] Councell; he seemes not to haue re­mēbred what our B. Sauiour said of Scribes and Pharisees teaching out of Moyses chaire, quae dicunt facite, imi­tate not their workes, but practice what they teach.

That such as doe celebrate a Coun­cell should not, nimis inniti, to much insist or presume, on this, that they are a generall Councell, as if therefore they might freelie doe quaecunque libuerit, doth not make against vs; it denies not to a Councell, infalli­bilitie; as he denies it not to Prophets and Apostles, who saies they should not relie to much therevpon, as if therefore they might doe what they listed. Moreouer his speach is qua­lified by himselfe if you marke it, non debent vt videtur, and Clemang. pa. 597. non vtile crediderim illos inniti; mee thinks they should not; I should not esteeme it profitable for them to relie &c.

§ VII.

1. Canus defends the infallibilitie of appro­ued Councells. 2. His opinion of others which [Page 86] are not confirmed or approued Councells. 3. It is a sophisticall proceeding, to impugne one ve­ritie with another veritie.

FAteor equidem quodcunque Concilium generale vniuer­salem Ecclesiam representare. Sed dum vrges Ecclesiam er­rare non posse, verum est in eo sensu qui à fidelibus accipitur. Intelligimus enim totam simul Ecclesiam, hoc est, fideles omnes non errare: at nihil obstat cur maior Ecclesia pars non erret. Baro p. 381. ex Cano. loc. 5. c. 5.

CANVS, Is pretended to con­tradict vs; though he be know­ne to maintaine the Councells in­fallibilitie, such as wee speake of: adding withall, that the contrarie is hereticall. In the fourth Chapter of his fift booke, where he treates of that controuersie, his third conclusion is, Tertia Con­clusio. Conci­lium generale confirmatū au­thoritate Ro­mani Pontificis certam fidem fa­cit Catholico­rum dogmatū. Quam quidem conclusionē ita exploratā ha­bere opus est vt eius cōtrariam haereticam esse credamus. Ca­nus li. 5. c 4. A generall Councell confirmed by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome, doth make certaine the faith of Catho­like tenets. Which he there proues with many reasons; resoluing also the doubts which Heretikes obiect against it.

2. Hauing established that autho­ritie, he disputes further, whether [...] Councell not confirmed by the Pope, hat [...] [Page 87] certaine and firme authoritie or no? so­me learned men Dubium ex­cutiendum est, an Concilium per legatos sū ­mi Pōtificis ce­lebratum, fir­mam certāque habeat autho­ritatem; an po­tius episcopi Ro­mani confirma­tio expectāda sit vt certa habeā ­tur decreta Cō ­cilij. Idem c. 5. viri doctissimi, doe affirme it; because it represents the vniuersall Church, which can­not erre. Wherevnto Canus answers, that the whole Church or an ap­proued Councell, (which doth per­fectlie represent it,) cannot erre; but a part of either, may. Ibidem. The iud­gment (saith he) of the greater part (of the Councell) though the Legates fol­low it, is not certaine: certum autem esset si a summo Pontifice confirmare­tur, but if it should be confirmed by the Pope, it would be certaine. And in the same manner he doth answer to a second argument of assistance, made for the same purpose. Ibidem: euen as (saith he) that which seemeth good to the whole Church, the same also see­meth good to the holie Ghost; but not presentlie what the greater part of the Church shall haue iudged, the same is the iudgment of the holie Ghost: so if anything be iudged by all the Bishops, it is verilie iudged by the spirit of God; but not presentlie if many fathers of the Councell agree into one sentence, shall it be to be beleeued the sentence of the [Page 88] holie Ghost vnles it be confirmed by the Pope.

3. By the waie I obserue here two things; one is, that if an author in­terprete those words Ecclesia errare non potest, the Church cannot erre, of the whole or vniuersall Church, it doth not followe that he denies therefore infallibilitie to generall ap­proued Councells, which are per­fect representations of the Church diffused; for this Simile, in S. Antonino obser­uare licet de quo suprà. Et nota, post verba ab ad­uersarijs citata (vt supa pag. 86.) seq [...]i im­mediatè in au­thore, sic igitur non ego admit­to, vt totum Concilium cū legatis errare possit: at erra­re poterit ma­ior p [...]s Con­c [...]lij, & e [...]nti illi poterū [...] le gatis subscribe­re. A [...] que id est quod nos in praesentia dici­mus, [...]udicium maioris partis etiam si legati sequantur, non esse certum; cer­tùm autem esset si à summo Pon­tificeconfirmare­tur. Nec enim opus est, que­mad modūpau­lò antè docui­mus, sententiā Concilij omnes simul patres approbare. Canus li. 5. c. 5, q. [...]. man whom you cite for the former part, doth also maintaine the later. And the man­ner of arguing, is indeed absurd; be­cause it would impugne one truth by another. As if I should saie; the whole Gospell of S. Iohn is the vn­doubted word of God, therefore the first Chapter of it is not. And were it admitted, it would proue, as before I said on the same occasion, that eue­rie Apostle, yea all the Apostles and Fathers might haue consented in a grosse, yea and in the most funda­mentall errour: because they be not the whole and vniuersall Church.

The other thing which I obserue, is, that without sinceritie or con­science [Page 89] you doe make vse of mens words, contrarie to their knowne professed meaning and intention; which proceeding, especiallie in matter of religion, is inexcusable. The like obseruation I might haue made in Antoninus, who is alleaged against that which he did openlie maintaine.

§. VIII.

1. Stapleton did acknowledge degrees of ex­tension in diuine assistance; and maintaine the infallibilitie of the Church in her publike decrees of faith. 2. To be obnoxious to errour in matters not reuealed, doth not any way im­peach the promise of assistance and infallibi­litie in all that doth intrinsecallie appertaine to the substance of diuine faith.

QVando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertinent, sed salua fidei compage variè a varijs intellig [...] possunt &c. consulitur vel obiter disputat Ecclesia aberrare ali­quando poterit &c. ex Stap.

[Page 90]1. STAPLETON, is brought, as if he gaue no more to the Church and her Councells, then Protestants doe; because he doth not maintaine their infallibilitie in curious subtili­ties, and questions indifferent vnto faith; nor thinke it so ample in ob­iect as was that of the Apostles. Where, first it is to be considered, that as in faith or science, so like­wise in assistance or infallibilitie, more or lesse extension doth not change the nature of the thing. Ma­thematicall science in one is more ex­tended then in another; one kno­wes more conclusions then ano­ther doth; yet is it in both, of the same nature. The light of glorie in all the Saints is of the same Species and kinde, as the Deuines teach; though one by it knowes more, another lesse. Faith, in vs, and in the Apostles; before, and since the In­carnation; is of the same nature: but more extended in the Apostles, then in vs; and since the incarnation, mo­re generallie, then it was before. The like wee saie of assistance or in­fallibilitie in iudgment; it hath been [Page 91] more extended, in some, then in o­thers; more at one time, then at ano­ther.

Secondlie it is to be considered that the Apostles, who did write scri­pture; had infallibilitie in Singuli A­postoli de om­nibus plenissi­mè à Deo in­structierant, ita vt eorum qui­libet de quocun­que dogmate ad fidem siuè neces­sariò siue nō ne­cessariò pertinen­te, pronunciare potuisset: id­quetanta certi­tudine, vt non solum pastores essent fidelissi­mi, sed etiā ma­gistri peritissi­mi, omniaque etiam subtilissima circa fidei mysteria pene­rarent. Staeplet, de princip. fidei Doctrinal. li. 8. c. 15. Quod autem de Apostolis modo diximus, vt non solum in do­ctrina, sed etiam in forma docendi infallibili veritate nite­rentur, peculiare hoc Deus esse voluit &c. Ibidem. all they did affirme; whether the mat­ter were dogmaticall, or histo­ricall; whether substance, or cir­cumstance: whatsoeuer they did af­firme, and put into the Scripture, it is a truth. But the infallibilitie of Councells is not so ample; it is not so farre extended. This Stapleton doth proue in the place obiected; where, hauing giuen the prerogatiue to that in sacred writers and Apo­stles, he concludes, Natura nihilominus ac substantia potestatis ac certi­tudinis, eadem est Ecelesiae nunc, & illius Apostolorum: sicut fontis ac riuuli inde fluentis eadem est in specie & bonitate naturali aqua, nisi ab aliquo extrinseco immute­tur: quod his fieri non potest quia semper eundum Spiritum Sanctum magistrum (tanquā formalē rationem puritati [...] & synceritatis tam fontis quam riuuli) successores habent quē Apostoli ipsi habebant: licet in alio diuerso gradu. Ibidē. the nature [Page 92] notwithstanding and substance of the power and certitude, of the Church now▪ and of that of the Apostles, is all one. All one in substance; but, In the Apo­stles euerie waie exact, as reaching to the decrees, and to the meanes o [...] proofes; and to the consequence o [...] forme; and to the circumstances all; and this, in all kinde of matter▪ In the Successors, not so farre exact; nor in that extension or fullnes; but in alio gradu; in another, an inferior, a more limitted, and contracted, de­gree.

In the same Apostoli hanc certitudinem omnimodam & sapientien­tiam habuerunt tam in medijs quam in fine. Conseruare autem prius tradita &c. quia non tam praeclara & exacta sapientia indiget, sed satis habet si diligenter acceptis & [...]emel traditis insistat; indefit quod Ecclesia succedens tan­ [...]a certitudine in ipsis medijs non dirigitur. Neque enim [...]nta argumentorum certitudine opus est aperire & expli­ [...]are quod virtute in semine fidei later, aliudque ex alio [...]e lucere, quam de nouo rem penitus ignoratam explorare [...] docere. Sic enim Philosophi &c. atque haec vna causa [...]st quare tantam infallibilitatem in ipsa forma & ratione [...]ocendi, successorum, Ecclesia non desideret, quantam [...]psi Apostoli. Stapl. doctr. fidei cont. 4. li. 8. c. 15. place (to satisfie by the way another doubt) you may finde cleerelie deliuered, what some haue mistaken touching his minde, in the Metere quae alij seminaue­runt, exacta & omnimoda infallibilitate non indiget; sed satis est semel ac­ceptis diligenter insistere. Neque tanta certitudine opus est aperire & explicare &c. quam de nouo rempenitus igno­ratam explorare. Ex Staplet. Relec. contro. 4. q. 2. Relection: those words, tanta, [Page 93] [...]nd omnimoda, or exacta; which are [...]ound there; import in him, a com­parison; not in the substance of the [...]ertaintie, or infallibilitie, or assi­stance; that, as he said before, is, ea­dem, the same; but, in modo, in the quantitie, manner, and degree, which [...]s diuers. Out of which diuersitie in the manner, and quantitie, or exten­sion, it comes, that the successors doe not reach vnto the meanes or [...]rguments, and consequences, and [...]acts, and circumstances, so vniuer­sallie, with as ample, and in euerie [...]ne of those respects as immoueable a [...]ertaintie, as the first Masters and Planters of Religion, and writers of the scripture, did; who were to [...]aie the foundation, and by waie of [...]euelation to deliuer, what the Church in after times was to insist vpon.

Thirdlie it is to be considered, that, the Pastors in Councell, ac­cording to this Author, (and, as by their Acts you may perceaue) doe proceed, Sometimes as Deuines, de­ducing or inferring one thing out of another, and Sometimes as Witnesses of the faith and iudges of controuer­sie, deciding and testifying the truth, and proposing it to the world to be embraced and beleeued. The former is a preamble to the later; in which later, it is alwaies infallible whether it be, or be not so, necessarilie, and alwaies, in the former, from which further Question wee do heere ab­stract. The reason is because their decrees are generallie proposed to all, not to be seene or knowne scien­tificallie, that waie were verie singu­gular; the most part of Christians is not able to conceaue it: but, to be beleeued. The Ibidem. Church (saith th [...] Author) doth not teach, ex arte, sed ex authoritate, not by art, but by authori­tie, neither doth she conclude as it were by Theologicall science, of God and di­uine things, but by the Pastorall pow [...] which from God she hath receaued, s [...] [Page 95] doth giue sentence or determine. Our Sauiour did not open a schoole of science but of faith; neither did he send his disciples to proue the Gospell, but to preach it, And, teach indeed he bid them; but so, as by testifying and preaching they should doe it; not by proueing or disputing. Ecclesiae pa­storibus & ma­gistris decernē ­tibus creditur, non quia legiti­mè probarunt quod decernūt; sed quia apertè decernūt & tra­dunt sic esse cre­dendum; siue decretū suum ex legitimis medijs probas­se nobis cōstet, siue non. Haec enim est obe­dientia fidei de qua disserui­mus. Ibidem.

Fourthlie it is to be considered that the infallibilitie of the Church-de­crees, depends vpon the Ioan. 14. promi­sed assistance; which was not to all veritie possible, nor to all that is a­ctuall neither; but to reuealed onlie, docebit vos omnia, & suggeret vobis omnia quaecunque dixero, is the promi­se. The spirit of truth, the holie Ghost, shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all what soeuer I shall haue said vnto you. To things not re­uealed, the promise was not exten­ded. The course was taken for bea­ring in minde and vnderstanding, the lesson which Gods eternall Word hath giuen: and whatsoeuer, in this kinde, the Church doth determine and propose to the faithfull to be­leeue, is true. Neither can she pro­pose any thing in this manner, which [Page 96] is not indeed such as she declares it to be; she hauing diuine guidance and assistance, in euerie such act. This, which you denie, Stapleton doth teach. Stapl. Re­lect. cont. 4. q. 2. not. 4. Ecclesia in conclusione fidei semper est certissima & infallibi­lis. Marke that, semper; the Church, in the conclusion of faith, is alwaies most certaine and infallible. So that if you finde any thing declared by the Church to be de fide, it is, according to his tenet, most certaine; and may no further be disputed. And in ano­ther Staplet. de princip. si. contr. 4. li. 8. c. 15. place, Ecclesia, quia non ra­tione, sed authoritate, assistentia, & prouidentia diuina, nititur, eamque in­fallibiliter promissam habet, nec pra­ter veritatem, nec erroneè, nec contra Deum, vllo modo decernere potest. The Church, because it relyeth, not on rea­son, but on the diuine authoritie, pro­uidence, and assistance, and hath it in­falliblie promised vnto her, can in no sort or manner, nullo modo, determine besides the truth, or erroneouslie, or a­gainst God. Whence it followes, as before, that if the Church doth ap­plie her testimonie vnto any booke, auouching and publikelie declaring [Page 97] it, to be scripture; or to any proposi­ [...]ion, determining it to be a point of [...]aith, and proposing it vnto the world for such; there can be, accor­ [...]ing to this author, no further que­ [...]tion made of it: since the diuine [...]rouidence doth so guide her, that [...]n such definitions, she, in no sort, [...]an iudge erroneouslie, or determine [...]esides the truth.

[...]. Neither is this integritie in de­ [...]nition violated, or our sauiours pro­mise of assistance broken, if, not in matter of diuine beleefe, (such as [...]or the good of his Church God [...]ath reuealed,) but in Longè ali­ter se habent quaestiones istae quas esse prae­ [...]er fidem arbitratur (Celestius,) quàm sunt illae in quibus [...]lua fide qua Christiani sumus, aut ignoratur quid verum [...] & sententia definitiua suspenditur; aut aliter quam est, [...]umana & infirma suspicione conijcitur. Vel [...] cum quae­ [...]tur, qualis vel vbi sit Parad [...]sus; cum tamen esse illum [...]aradisum fides Christiana non dubitet. Vel cum quaeri­ [...]r vbi nunc sit Elias &c. vel cùm quaeritur vtrum in cor­ [...]ore vel extra corpus in ter [...]ium caelum sit raptus Apo­ [...]olus &c. vel quot sunt Caeli, &c. vel vtrum elementa [...]undi huius conspicabilis quatuor, an plura sint &c. vbi [...]otuit Methusalem viuere &c. Quis non sentiat in his at­ [...]e huiusmodi varijs & innumerabilibus quaestionibus, sine ad [...]bscurissima opera Dei siue ad Scripturarum abditissi­ [...]as latebras pertinentibus, quas certo aliquo gener [...] complecti ac definire difficile est, & multa ignorari salua Christiana fide, & alicubi errari sine aliquo haeretici do­gmatis crimine. S. Aug. li. 2. cont. Pelag. & Celest. c. 23. vide Canum li. 5. c. 5. qq. 3. 4. 5. other que­stions [Page 98] which it hath not pleased him by reuelation to discouer; (as, where is Elias, where Paradice, how many heauens, &c.) not in definition, and attestation; but in some particular It is one thing to argue out of reuealed principles; and another thing to argue out of others. Of this later kind of deduction I speake heere. deduction and coniecture, she doth inferre amisse. Not euerie conse­quence orillation, not euerie thing syllogisticallie inferd out of premi­ses, in matter of that nature; hath in­fallibilitie, according to this Author; but, the definitions and decrees, all, haue it. If you knowe not yet the difference betwixt the one and the other, you may reade him, or Canus; or looke vpon the Acts of the Coun­cells, where you may, with litle stu­die, discerne it.

If it be replied, that in his fourth Controuersie, he seemes to limit and contract the obiect of assistance, to points onlie fundamentall, exclu­ding all other: I answer, that euen Docendi infallibilitas in causa fidei Ec­clesiae data, tā ­tummodo in illis fidei dog­matibus infal­libiliter defi­niendis, & fide­li populo ce [...]ta veritate tradē ­dis locum ha­bet, quae vel in cōtrouersiam vo­cantur, vel alio­qui ad publicā Ecclesiae fidem necessariò per­tinent. Staplet. fid. doc. li. 8. c. 15. Quando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertinēt &c. vel non ad publicum ali­quod & com­mune dogma explicandum (quod vel om­nes fideles ex­plicitè crederè debent vel in publico reli­gionis vsu ver­satur, vel sal­tem maiores explicitè cre­dere tenentur, populus autem implicitè, in maiorum fide) sed ad priua­tam alicuius &c. Ibidem. there, he doth extend it to all points of faith, which, either are [Page 99] called into controuersie (at any time wherein the Church is) or other­wise doe necessarilie appertaine to the publike faith of the Church. In which compasse, is contained, all, that is in the Councell of Trent defined, against you: or in any other oecu­menicall Councell proposed, to be beleeued. Your masters, Luther, Ca­luin, and others, called into question diuers things, appertaining, and in­trinsecallie as parts, to the substance or obiect of diuine faith and publike exercise of Religion, as, bookes of holie scripture, iustification, Sacraments, and the Masse. And therefore, if ac­cording to Stapleton, the Churches infallibilitie doth reach vn [...] all points of faith called into question, it is accor­ding to the same tenet, extended vn­to these; which he beleeued so to pertaine to faith. But, in questions that are impertinēt, or Such as so­me aboue, pag. 97. litter. i. in marg. indifferent; or, that appertaine onlie to the di­rection of some one, that is weake in iudgment, and in some priuate case; or, to the satisfaction of some proude mans curiositie: to conclu­de; in questions, that appertaine to [Page 100] the explicatiō of those things which are (appendices,) additions, rather then contained in, or appertaining to, the substance of faith, if the Church should mistake, it were not (he thinks) any preiudice to the graunt of assistance, or the promised infal­libilitie: not, if in matter of this natu­re, she should affirme, or (discoursing as a Diuine, which in her examina­tion of difficulties otherwhile she doth,) should inferre, and logical­lie Vel asseren­do vel etiam concludendo. Ibidem. conclude, amisse. But, to make a publike decree of that which is false, and propose it, openlie, to be belee­ued of Christians, as matter of faith; that she cannot; being in her publike decrees [...] definition, infallible, as you heard him saie before. And the same he hath proued at large, both by Scripture, and Theologicall rea­sons, in diuers Doc. fi li 8. c 12. 13 Relect. cont. 3. q 4 cont. 4. q. 2. & alibi. places of his boo­ke.

§. IX.

1. Saint Augustine will not haue any other bookes equalled with Scripture in authoritie.

[Page 101] 2. Other witnesses, or testimonies of other na­ture then that of Scripture, and not recommen­ded by it or by the author of it, wee be not obli­ged to in that manner as wee are obliged to be­leeue the Scripture. 3. The comparison of Scri­pture with other writings, in authoritie. His forbearing to presse an Arian with the autho­ritie of the Councell of Nice. 4. The Donatists refusing to yeild vnto the authoritie of the whole Church Catholike, and consequentlie of her Councells too, and admitting Scripture, he doth challeng them to shew there the decision of the Controuersie which was betwixt them and him. 5. He did both auouch and relie vpon the authoritie of plenarie Councells, esteeming them to be, in their decrees of faith, infallible. What mending that is which he speakes of.

EGo solis eis Scriptorum qui iam ca [...]onici appellantur, didics hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum scribendo errasse audeam credere, alios autem ita lego vt qua [...] ­talibet sanctitate doctrinaque polleant, non id [...]o verum pu [...]em quia ipsi ita senserunt, sed quia mihi vel per illos authores ca­nonicos vel probabili ratione, quod à veritate non abhorreat, persuadere potuerunt. Baro p. 333. ex Aug. Ego solis eis Scri­ptoribus qui canonici &c. Ibidem.

[Page 102]1. OVT of that which hath been obserued from Staple­ton, will appeare the sence of S. Au­gustine; wherefore he comes next. There are four or fiue places cited out of him, against the authoritie of Councells; but, for the most part, verie impertinentlie; and, altoge­ther against his minde. We knowe, there is a greate difference betwixt the canonicall writers, and others; betwixt the Epistles of the Apostles, and those of Bishops after them; be­twixt their Acts, written by S. Luke, who in all he affirmes or relates is infallible; and the Acts of generall Councells, whose writers had not that assistance. Wee doe not equa­lize, or parallell, one of these wri­tings with the other. Wee giue the soueraigntie to the scripture, as being infallible in all; so farre, that it doth no where at all, mistake, in any thing. This reuerence wee giue to the testimonie of those writers, in what euer they auerr; and giue not the like to any other, testibus, aut te­stimonijs, be they witnesses or testi­monies. Albe it wee beleeue other [Page 103] witnesses, in diuers things also; though not so generallie, in all, wi­thout exception. But I come to your exceptions. The first is out of the 19. Epistle, where

S. AVGVSTINE tells S. Hierom, to whom he writes it, that he doth not imagine he would haue him so reade his bookes, as if it were a heinous thing to doubt, whether perchance, in them, some errour might be found; that priuiledge was reserued to sa­cred writers. I confesse, saith he, that vnto those bookes of scripture onlie which are now called canonicall, I haue learned to deferre this feare and honour, that I most firmelie beleeue, none of those Authors, to haue erred any thing in writing; and if (in eis literis) in tho­se writings I finde any thing which may seeme contrarie to the truth, I ma­ke no doubt but that, either the booke or coppie is faultie, or that the interpre­ter hath not vnderstood what was said, or that I my selfe doe not conceaue or vnderstand it. In Baroe who doth vrge this authoritie, against the Church and Councells decree or sentence, and impertinentlie, you [Page 104] may note these corruptions; first that for Si cum do­ctiore amico sic disputemus vt quicquid di­xerit necesse sit approbare, nec quaerendi sal­tem causa li­ceat aliquan­tulum relucta­ri: tum verò sine vllo timo­re offensionis tanquam in cā ­po luditur, sed mirum si nobis non illuditur. Ego enim fa­teor charitati tuae, solis eis Scripturarū li­bris qui iam canonici ap­pellantur, didi­ci hunc timo­rem honoremque deferre, vt nullum eorum authorem scribeodo aliquid errasse firmissimè credam. Ac si aliquid in eis offendero literis, quod videatur contrarium veritati, nihil al [...]ud quam vel mendos [...]m esse codicem, vel inter­pretem non assecutum esse quod lictum est, vel me mini­mè intellexis [...]e non [...]mb [...]gam. Alios autem ita lego vt q [...]a [...]ta [...]be [...] sanctitate doctrinaque praepolleant, non ideo ve [...]m p [...]m quia ipsi ita senserunt; sed quia mihi vel per illos authores canonic [...]s vel probabili ratione, quod à ve­ro non abhorreat, persuadere potuerunt. Nec te, mi fra­ter, sentite aliquid aliter existimo; prorsus inquam non te arbitror sic legi tuos libros velle, tanquam Prophetarum vel Apostolorum; de quorum scriptis quod omni errore ca­reant dubitare nefarium est. S. Aug. Epist. 19. ad Hier. Scripturarum libris, to ac­comodate it the better for his pur­pose, he puts in, Scriptorum; and Scri­ptoribus; vrging the word against vs. Secondlie he omits aliquid, in that part, nullum eorum authorum scriben­do aliquid errasse, whereas the for­ce of the speach, and prerogatiue is by that word specified. Thirdlie, be­cause in the words immediatlie fol­lowing, if they had been put downe, his corruptions had been laid open to the reader, by another aliquid, and litteris, he leaues them out; im­mediatlie ioyning others which he thought to be more for his purpose: as by comparison of his citation put aboue, pag. 101. to the words them­selues in this Addition, it will ap­peare.

[Page 105]QVanquam sicut paulò ante dixi, tantummodo Scripturis canonicis hanc ingenuam debeam seruitutem, qua eas solas ita sequar vt conscriptores earum nihil in eis omnino errasse, nihil falliciter posuisse non dubitem. Baro p. 335. ex S. Aug. & ad eundem sensum plura.

S. Augustines minde is further ope­ned by another place, brought, as against vs, out of the same Epi­stle. S. Hierome had obiected against him seuen authors for his opinion in the matter whereof they dispute in that conference made by letters: and demanding whom he followed, he, ( S. Aug.) shewes first that S. Hierome did not approue of fower of his owne, so that he was to finde out onlie three to set against the three that remained; to which pur­pose he mentioneth, as fauouring him, S. Ambrose, and S. Cyprian, vn­to whom (because be did not him­selfe esteeme so of their authoritie, as if there might not exceptions be taken against their writings or opi­nion [Page 106] in some matter,) he addes a third, of authoritie incontroulable, namelie S. Paul. His Flagitas á me vt aliquem saltem vnum ostendam, cu­ius in hac re­sententiam sim secutus, cùm tutam plures no­minatim com­memoraueris, &c. cùm sint fermè sex vel septem, horum quatuor autho­ritatem tu quo­que infringis. Nam &c. tres igitur restant &c. Si quaeras quid hinc senserit noster Ambrosius, quid noster itidem Cyprianus, inuenies fortasse nec nobis defuisse quos in eo quod asserimus sequeremur: quanquam sicut paulò ante dixi tantūmodo Scripturis &c. vt suprà, pag. 105. S. August. epist. 19. words ob­iected, which are by him vttered on the foresaid occasion, be these, I owe to the canonicall scriptures onlie this ingenuous seruice or subiection, whereby I follow them onlie so as I fir­melie beleeue that their writers erred in them nihil omninò, nothing at all; nor put any thing in them deceitfullie. It is the verie same that was before deliuered out of Stapleton. And the rest of the citations wherein he com­pares writings with the Scriptures ha­ue all the samesence. Neque enim quorumlibet disputationes quamuis Catholicorum & laudatorum hominum velut Scripturas Canonicas habere debemus, vt nobis non liceat salua ho­norificentia, quae illis debetur hominibus, aliquid in eo­rum scriptis improbare atque respuere, si forte inueneri­mus quod aliter senserint quam veritas habet diuino adiu­torio vel ab alijs intellecta, vel à nobis. S. Aug epist. 111. Other boo­kes haue not, in euerie part, that infallibilitie; other writers haue not such ample assistance, as the Sacred writers had.

[Page 107]SI diuinarum scripturarum, earum sc. quae canonicae in Ec­clesia nominantur, perspicua firmatur authoritate, sine vllae dubitatione credendum est. Alijs verò testibus vel testimonijs, quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur, tibi credere vel non cre­dere liceat, quantum ea momenti ad faciendam fidem vel ha­bere vel non habere perpenderis. Baro p. 336. ex Aug. epist. 112.

2. THe Second exception is, that S. Augustine in an other place ( Epist 112.) speakes not of writings only, but of witnesses; and leaues it, as it is pretended, in our choise, whether wee will beleeue or not beleeue any but the Scriptu­re. Wherevnto I answer, that he doth not either there or in any other place of his writings, reiect all au­thoritie or testimonie that is other, in your sence; binding vs onlie to the scripture so as you pretend. For it is manifest that he doth admit the testimonie of the Church, as infal­lible; esteeming it S. August. epist. 118. c. 5. most insolent madnes to contradict it; yet the Church is not scripture. To this purpose there be many places in him, whereof I will cite one. In his booke de Vnit. Eccl. disputing with [Page 108] an heretick about the Question of rebaptizing such as out of the Church had been baptized, and vr­ging the custome of the Church which did receaue such as were penitent into communion, without rebapti­zing, he makes this discourse; S. Aug. de vnit. Eccles. c. 19. If some wise man to whom our Lord Iesus giues testimonie, should be con­sulted of vs in this Question, wee ought no waies to doubt of doing or putting in execution what he tould vs, least wee should be esteemed to repugne not so much him as our Lord Iesus Christ, by whose testimonie he was commended: now, our Lord Ie­sus doth giue testimonie to his Church, wherefore, as that Church (diffused) thorough all Nations, beginning at Hierusalem, doth receaue such (peni­tents,) so without all windings and tergiuersation thou art to be receaued. And if thou wilt not, thou doest, most perniciouslie, cōtrarie to thy owne salua­tion, striue against, not me or any mā, but our Sauiour himselfe, whilst thou wilt not beleeue that thou art so to be ad­mitted, as that Church which he (whom not to beleeue thou doest confesse to be [Page 109] detestable) commends with his testi­monie, doth admit. The same is con­firmed out of the Gospell, wherein our blessed sauiour saith to his A­postles, and Disciples, and in them to the Church, that they should beare Matth. 24. Ioan.15. testimonie of him; yet the Apo­stles, the Disciples, the whole Church, be not Scripture. Againe, Luc. 10. he that heareth you heareth me, (saith our Sauiour) he that contem­neth you contemneth me. There is therefore an authoritie aliue, and distinct from the written word, which wee must yeeld vnto; by S. Augustine also confessed; and con­sequentlie, it is not in our choise, to beleeue or contemne, any but the scripture. Nor were the primitiue Christians without obligation of beleeuing the Gospell proposed vn­to them by the Apostles, before it was written downe; as you knowe by those words which immediate­lie followe their commission, Marc. vlt. he that beleeueth not shall be condem­ned.

To the place obiected, Supra pag, 107. alijs testibus vel testmonijs quibus aliquid [Page 110] credendum esse suadetur, tibi creder [...] vel non credere liceat quantum ea mo­menti &c. Pag. 108. his words aboue cited, doe suggest an easie answer: as, this Others, not commended by this autho­ritie, beleeue or not beleeue, as you see cause; but, others, commended by this authoritie, you must beleeue, as farre as by it they are warranted and commended. Our Sauiour pro­ued that those who beleeued Moyses and the Prophets and the Psalmes, must beleeue him, for of him they giue testimonie. The like it is of the Church; if you beleeue the Pro­phets, you must beleeue the vniuer­sall Church, for they giue testimo­nie of it, and (as S. Augustine saith) more cleere, then of our S. Augu. E­narr. in psal. 30. conc. 2. Sauiour himselfe. One testimonie may war­rant another, and so they will be­come, in a manner, one. He that obaieth the magistrate, doth the­rein, honour the Prince by whom he is put in authoritie. And he that yeildeth all due reuerence to Prin­ces, doth therein a dutie vnto God, who commands it. Wee stoope to God, when with all reuerence we [Page 111] receaue his word written or vn­written; and wee submit our selues to the written word or Scripture, when wee listen to the Church which the Scripture doth commend.

When S. Augustine in his dispute with Cresconius about rebaptiza­tion, was come this S. Aug. li. 1. contra Cresco c. 31. & 32. quia nec vos potestis proferre de Scripturis, quarum nobis communis est authoritas, ab hae­reticis venientem denuò baptizatum, nec nos ita susceptum; quantum ad hanc remattinet, par nobis causa est. Since neither you can produce out of Scriptures whose authoritie is common to vs, one comming from Heretikes againe baptized, nor wee one so re­ceaued, for as much as concernes this matter (that is, producing out the Scripture an example of the one or the other,) our cause is equall; he shewes notwithstanding, how, euen in this point, the Church in his time and he with it, followed the most certaine authoritie of the Scripture, Ibidem c. 35. neque enim paruï momenti &c. for it is not of small regard or moment that, whe among the Bishops of the age pre­cedent to the time when Donatus part [Page 112] (or faction) began to be, this Question did wauer and had the different Opi­niōs of compartners or collegues amongst themselues without breach of vnitie, it was thought good that this which wee now maintaine should be obserued by the whole Catholike (Church) spred ouer all the world. And a litle after. wherefore though trulie there be not any example of this thing brought out of the canonicall Scriptures, yet the truth of the same Scriptures is held of vs, and euen in this thing, when wee doe that which hath now seemed good to the vniuersall Church, whom the au­thoritie of the same Scriptures doth commend; that because the holie Scri­pture cannot deceaue, whosoeuer feares to be deceaued with the obscuritie of this Question (and of any other ob­scure Question pertaining to faith it is the same) eandem Ecclesiam de illa consulat, let him require, in it, the iudgment of the same Church which the holie Scripture without ambiguitie doth demonstrate.

There is yet a further Answer in the word Alijs. You know that actions donne with ones owne hād, [Page 113] by the motion of his owne spirit, a man reputes not aliene: but his owne. So doth our B. Sauiour esteeme the actions of his mysticall bodie, don­ne by the motion of his Spirit. Set­tle it in your hearts not to meditate be­fore, what you shall answer; for I will giue you a mouth and wisedome, which [...]ll your aduersaries shall not be able to gainesay nor resist. Luc. 21. It shall [...]e giuen to you in that same hower what [...]ou shall speake: for it it not you that [...]peak, Cum venerit ille Spiritus ve­ritatis, docebit vos omnem ve­ritatem. Non enim loquetur a semetipso: sed quaecunque au­diet loquetur, &c. de meo ac­cipiet, & annū ­ciabit vobis. Ioan. 16. Mea doctrina [...]ō [...]st mea, sed eius qui misit me. Ioan. 6 T [...]es sunt qui testi­monium dant in caelo &c. & hi tres vnū sunt 1. Ioan. 5. but the Spirit of your Father that [...]eaketh in you. Matt. 10. My words [...]hat I haue put in thy mouth, shall not [...]epart out of thy mouth, and out of the [...]outh of thy seed, &c. saith our Lord, [...]om hence foorth and foreuer. Esaie [...]9. He that heareth you, heareth me. [...]uke 10. Since you seek a proofe of [...]hrist speaking in me. 2. Cor. 12. The [...]pirit of our Lord hath spoken by me, [...]nd his words, by my tongue. 2. Kings [...].

Againe. The decrees which wee [...]eak of, haue the testimonie of the [...]olie Ghost; and the Scriptures [...]ue the testimonie of the Holie [...]host. Now, the Holie Ghost gi­uing [Page 114] testimonie to both these, i [...] not thereby in himself deuided in­to two: He is still the same testis.

Saint Gregorie our Apostle, re­uerenced the four first generall Coū ­cels, li. 1. Regest. ep. 24. vt quatuor Euangelia, as he did the four Gospels. Saint Augustine whose authoritie is heere obiected when he speakes of the sentence against the Donatists, li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. saies Deus ple­nario Concilio reuelauit. The Church Waldensis aboue told you, make no doubt but that the Holie Ghost assists her, li. 2. Doct. fid. c. 27. in her sincere oecume­nicall assemblies: He is present to them, and defines in them. So d [...] the Apostles beleeue too, Act. 15. attribu­ting their decree to the Holie Ghos [...] whose assistance was Suggeret vo­bis omnia. Ioh. 14. In vobis erit. Ibidē. Do­cebit vos om­nem veritatem. c. 16. promised It hath seemed good to the Holie Ghos [...] and to vs. This for Councels. No [...] for Scripture.

Well spake the Holie Ghost by Esa [...] the Prophet vnto our Fathers. A [...] vlt. God who at sundrie times and [...] diuers manners, spake in times pas [...] vnto the Fathers by the Prophets. He [...] 1. He spake by the mouth of his ho [...] Prophets which haue beene since [...] [Page 115] world began. Luc. 1. Holie men of God spake as they were moued by the Holie Ghost. 2. Pet. 1.

In a word. There are diuisions of graces, but one Spirit: and there are di­uisions of operations, but one Lord: and there are diuisions of ministrations, but one God; who worketh all in all. And the manifestation of the Spirit is giuen to euerie one, to profit. To one &c. Vide Disput. li. 3 vbi agitur de Spiritus Sancti assistentia. And all these things worketh one and the same Spirit, diuiding to euerie one ac­cording as it will. 1. Cor. 12.

I forbeare to note that Saint Au­gustine speakes in the place obie­cted of a point Cùm enim petiuisses vt de inuisibili Deo, vtrum perocu­los corporeos possit videri, prolixè aliquid copioseque ad te scriberem, negare non potui. S. Aug. Epist. 112. Quod non sic osten­dero, vt aut corporis, aut animi sensu, visum perceptum­que teneatur, & tamen dixero aliquid quod aut verum quidem aut falsum esse necesse sit sed nullo illorum duûm genere videatur, restat vt tantum modo credatur vel non credatur. Sed si dininarum Scripturarum, earum sc. quae canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur, perspicua (quod dixero) firmatur authoritate, sine vlla dubitatione credendum est. Alijs verò testibus &c. vt suprà. Ibidem. Dico itaque quod visuri sint Deum in ipso corpore; sed vtrum per ipsum, sicut per corpus nunc videmus solem, lunam, stellas, ma­re, ac terram, & quae sunt in ea, non parua quaestio est. S. Aug. li 22. de Ciuit. Dei c. 29. Ratiocinatio illa Philoso­phorum qua disputant ita mentis aspectu intelligibilia vi­deri, & sensu corporis sensibilia id est corporalia, vt nec intelligibilia per corpus, nec corporalia per scipsa mens valeat intueri, si posset nobis esse certissima, profectò cer­tum esset per oculos corporis etiam spiritalis nullo modo posse videri Deum. Sed istam ratiocinationem & vera ra­tio & prophetica irridet authoritas. Ibidem. Tametsi nec Scripturae, nec Conciliorū, nec Patrū testimonijs expressè definitū sit, nō posse Deum oculo corporeo videri, id tamé adeo efficaci ratione naturali &c. Vasquez 1. p. disp. 40 c. 2. not determined by the Church: whence ariseth a third Answer. And he that can but En­glish his Inspiciatur codex manuscri­ptus. words, will himself es­pie a fourth; and a fift.

[Page 116] Quasi Episcopo­rum Concilia Scripturis cano­nicis aliquando fuerint compa­rata. Baro. p. 336 ex Aug.3. The third exception is, that Coun­cells according to S. Augustine, be not equall to the Scripture. But I see not how any thing can be dra­wne hence against their infallibilitie in decrees. Wee doe not equall the Apostles or the Prophets to our Sa­uiour Iesus Christ; nor the written word, with the eternall and increated word; yet, the Prophets and the Apo­stles, and the Scripture or written word, are infallible. Moreouer; the Canonicall Scriptures are infallible in all what euer they auouch, of what argument or matter soeuer it be, which latitude of infallibilitie wee [Page 117] finde not in the acts of Generall Councels; nor in any other booke or writing, as you were told before; and, though I doe not, your selfe will, repeate againe out of S. Au­gustine, quis S. Aug. li. 2. de bapt. contr. Donat. c. 3. nesciat Sanctam Scri­pturam canonicam tam veteris quam noui testamenti certis suis terminis con­tineri, eamque omnibus posteriorum E­piscoporum literis ita praeponi, vt de illa omninò dubitari & disceptari non pos­sit vtrum verum vel rectum sit quic­quid in ea scriptum esse cōstiterit? That quicquid, doth import an amplitude of infallibilitie, which Councells haue not; and therefore they are not equall vnto Scripture. The Dona­tists excepted against a Councell, because it had in it registred the daie and the Consuls. Etiam hinc gestis ipsis Cir­tēsibus calum­niabantur quia ibi dies & Cō ­sules legeban­tur; & exigebāt à nobis vt ali­qua Ecclesia­stica Concilia proferremus, vbi dies recita­rentur & con­sules, &c. etiam hoc exigebant vt de Scripturis sanctis ostende­remus alicubi dies & Consules esse conscriptos: quasi Episco­porum Conci­lia Scripturis canonicis ali­quando fuerint cōparata, aut possunt etiam ipsi de Scriptu­ris sanctis pro­ferre Cōcilium vbi Apostoli iudices sederint & accusatum aliquem dam­nauerint vel absoluerint. Et tamen respon­debimus eis et­iam Prophetas libros praeno­tatis & defini­tis commen­dasse tempori­bus, quo anno, cuius regis, &c. S. Aug. li. cont. Donatist. post Collat. c. 15. Requiring of the Catholikes to shewe any where out of Scripture, where the daies and consuls were registred and enrolled. Wherevnto S. Augustine answers, that Councells are not parallelled with Scripture; the one (to wit, the Councell) may doe well, in regi­string both daies and Consuls, though the other doe not so; or, they may [Page 118] be added, and not by the authoritie of the Councell; though nothing be registred in the Scripture, but by the direction of the holie Ghost. The acts of Councells are not equa­lized in exactnes, and extent of in­fallibilitie, to the books written by Gods Secretaries; wee giue the pre­rogatiue to the Scriptures, and so do the words obiected out of S. Augu­stine; which are cited in the mar­gine.

In the same place whence they were taken he tels how the Catho­likes, did forbeare to examine, why in one Councell the daie was no­ted, and in the other not, quia illi (Donatistae) vanas moras volebant in­nectere; and all heretikes are of the same condition, they hinder with impertinent Cauills the processe of the Catholikes argumēts, and catch at all occasions to trifle out the time. For the same cause, disputing in ano­ther place with an Arian, he did forbeare to vrge against him the au­thoritie of the Councell of Nice, against which the heretick tooke exceptions, opposing the Ariminian [Page 119] Councell. The examen of which two points, thereby called into con­trouersie; I meane, the lawfulnes of the one, and the vnlawfullnes of the other; would haue taken vp the time, and transferd the dispute into another question; which heretikes greedilie desire when they cannot answer. but S. Augustine would not permit that scope to his aduersarie: and therefore, hauing mentioned the two foresaid Councells, and in honour of the one which had defi­ned the thing he was disputing of, said, it S. Aug li. 3. contra Max. c. 14. was there veritatis autho­ritate & authoritatis veritate firma­tum, established by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie; and con­trariwise, of the other; that there were multi paucorum fraude decepti, many deceaued by the fraude or circum­uention of a fewe, whereby hereticall impietie endeuoured to weaken what the Catholike fathers in the po­wer of truth and authoritie had esta­blished; Sed nunc nec ego Nicenū, nec tu debes Arimi­nense, tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Conci­lium; nec ego hu­ius authoritate, nec tu illius de­tineris. Scriptu­rarum authoritatibus, nō quo­rumque pro­prijs, sed vtris­que communi­bus testibus &c Baro p. 337. ex Aug. hauing I saie mentioned these two Councells, he forbeares to vrge his argument out of the au­thoritie of the Nicene Councell, and [Page 120] makes it out of that authoritie which his aduersarie did admit; thereby the sooner to conclude, being so to dis­pute onlie about the meaning of the words he was to bring, and needing not to argue for his authoritie whose words they were. But now (for both of vs be content with this course) neither doe I, the Nicene, neither oughtest thou as by way of preiudice, produce, the Ariminian Councell: nei­ther am I held in with the authoritie of this (the Ariminian,) nor thou, of that, (the Nicene.) thou doest assu­me to thy selfe, the libertie not to obaie it, and out Infrà, in fi. huius relectionis ad sextum. of thy malice art not held in, with that great au­thoritie, though thou, and all o­thers, ought to be; since Hoc est il­lud homousion quod in Con­cilio Nicaeno aduersus haere­ticos Arianos à Catholicis Pa­tribus Veritatis authoritate & authoritatis ve­ritate firmatum est: quod po­stea in Concilio Ariminensi propter nouitatem in verbis minus quam oportuit intellectum, quam tamen fides an­tiqua pepera [...], multis paucorum fraude deceptis, haeretica impietas sub haeretico Imperatore Constantio labefactare tentauit. Sed post non longum tempus libertate Catholi­cae fidei praeualente &c. S. Aug. li 3. contra Maxim. c. 14. Sed nunc nec ego &c. ( vt supra in marg.) Ibidem. the au­thoritie of truth it selfe, which can­not lie, doth there establish the thing which wee dispute of. See what S. Athanasius hath testified of the authoritie of that Councell to conuince Heretiks. Efficax ad omnem impietatem euertendam &c. infrà in Addition: ad Athan.

[Page 121]PEtit Augustinus à Donatistis vt Ecclesiam suam demon­strent Non in sermonibus & rumoribus Afrorum, non in Concilijs Episcoporum suorum, non in literis quorumlibet dispu­tatorum, non in signis & prodigijs falla [...]ibus &c. sed in prae­scripto legis, in Prophetarum praedictis, in Euangelistarum prae­dicationibus. Baro. p. 337. & in eandem sententiam plura p. 338.

4. THe fourth exception out of S. Augustine is, that dispu­ting with the Donatists he vrged them to shewe by Scripture how theirs and not the Catholike or v­niuersall, was the true Church; and would not haue the matter tryed by their Councells. I answer that though the Church once knowne, and her authoritie admitted, that will serue to determine controuersies, as you heard S. Augustine saie before; yet, when the Question is of the Church it selfe, Whether it be a thing in the intention of our Sauiour confined to one Nation, or extended ouer all, and, with an Aduersarie who doth ad­mit [Page 122] Scripture; the way to demon­strate against him (vt ex tuis conces­sionibus &c. S. Aug. li. con. Cresc. c. 33.) the way I saie, to demonstrate against him, is, to looke vpon the Prophecies and see the description of it there; and, to harken withall what our Sauiour in the Gospell hath deli­uered, of it. The Donatists, with whom S. Augustine deales, admit­ted the canonicall bookes wherein these two things are; and they being once admitted, the Question might be defined out of them. And, of the testimonies of the Lawe and Prophets and Psalmes; and, of our blessed Sa­uiour himselfe; in this controuersie of the Church, S. Augustine said vnto the Donatists S. Aug. de vnit. Eccles. cap. 16. haec sunt ca [...] ­sae nostrae documenta, haec fundamenta, haec firmamenta; the cause he speakes of, was, Whether the Donatists i [...] Africk, or the Catholikes in all Na­tions, were the Church; whether [...] were a thing confined vnto the li­mits of that contrey or extended ouer all the world, according to Gods intention? and, the testimo­nies of our Sauiour, and of the Law, [Page 123] and of the Prophets and Psalmes, these testimonies he saith, were documents and foundations and establishments of this cause. He was not to proue it out of Councells; for he that de­nies the whole, doth withall reiect the authoritie of each part, or what euer is within the whole; they who condemned and opposed the who­le Catholike Church did withall sleight the authoritie of her Coun­cells, as Pagans also doe; but he was to proue it by a principle, which they reiected not.

Neither doth it followe that Councells therefore in themselues are not worthie of beleefe, or infal­lible in their assertion; or, that S. Au­gustine did not esteeme them so when to conuince the Donatists he tooke his argumēts frō the Prophets to confirme or proue the foresaid point. S. Peter heard a voice from 2. Petr. 1. heauen testifying of our Sauiour, yet he confirmes it the same way, firmiorem babemus Propheticum sermonem, wee haue the prophets words which yet confirme vs more: and our B. Sa­uiour, though most worthie of cre­dit, [Page 124] as being the truth it selfe, confir­med his resurrection, and other my­steries, to the Disciples, by the same Ipse Do­minus Iesus cū resurrexisset à mortuis, & dis­cipulorū ocu­lis videndum, manibus (que) tan­gēdum corpus suum offerret, ne quid tamen fallaciae se pati arbitrarentur, magic eos testi­monijs legis & propheratarū & psalmorū con­firmandos esse iudicauit, osten­dens ea de se im­pleta quae fue­rant tanto an­tè praedicta. S. Augu. de vnit. Eccles. c. 16. meanes. One testimonie, as I said before vpon the like occasion, doth illustrate another; and many ioyned together, doe more easilie master our vnderstanding, and ma­ke it yeeld obedience to the truth.

For the better comprehension of S. Augustines minde in this mat­ter, I will adde a word or two more touching this waie of discouering a truth in Religion; suppose it be, whether Iesus be the Messias and Re­deemer of the world? or, whether this or that congregation, be the Church of the Messias? For the notice of the former of these two, reade the Pro­phets, where you shall finde that a Messias shall come, that he shall be borne in Bethlem, preach, doe mira­cles; be resisted and reiected by the Iewes, who were keepers of these bookes of Prophesies; be persecuted, scourged, put to death, pierced; and after death rise againe; and be ac­knowledged and adored by the Gen­tiles. This you reade there; and it [Page 125] is a good direction; but this is not all. You must finde out the man, to whom this description doth agree; and, in the comparison of them both to­gether, the man Iesus with the cir­cumstances of his birth, life, and death, to the propheticall description; and the Prophesie to the man, in this comparison I say you knowe that which you looke for, vizt. that, Ie­sus is the Messias and redeemer of the world, when you would get know­ledge of the later, viz. which compa­nie is the Church, you first take no­tice of a companie of people, pro­fessing one faith, in all Nations, be­ginning at Hierusalem: defending it, by her Pastors Vt omittam sapientiā (syn­cerissimā) quā in Ecclesia esse Catholica non creditis, multa sunt alia quae in eius gremio me iustissimè te­neant. Tenet consensio po­pulorum at (que) gentium; tenes authoritas, mi­raculis inchon­ta, spe nutrita, charitate au­cta, vetustate firmata: tenet ab ipsa sede Pe­tri Apostoli, cui pascendas oues suas post resurrectionē Dominus cō ­mendauit, vs­que ad praesen­tem episcopa­tum successio sacerdotum: te­net postremò ipsum Catho­licae nomē &c. S. August. cont. Epist. Funda­menti c. 4. Ego verò Euangelio non crederem nisi me Catho­licae Ecclesiae commoueret au­thoritas. Ibid. c. 5. Cum igitur tantum auxi­lium Dei, tan­tum profectū fructum (que) vi­deamus, dubi­tabimus nos e­ius Ecclesiae cōderegremio, quae vsque ad confessionem ge­neris humani, ab apostolica sede per succes­siones episcoporū, frustra haereti­cis circumla­trantibus, & partim plebis ipsius iudicio, partim conci­liorum grauita­te, partim et­iam miraculo­rum maiestate damnatis, cul­men authorita­tis obtinuit? cui nolle primas dare vel sum­mae profecto impietatis est, vel praecipitis arrogantiae. S. Aug. de vtil cre­dendi c. 17. in Councells, and otherwise; offering to God, euerie where Sacrifice or oblation, leading an innocent life in exte­riour profession; and, confirming, with miracles, her beleefe and do­ctrine; but this alone, so abstracted from the increate authoritie, doth not breed an act of diuine beleefe that this companie is the Church of God; wherefore you goe further, and in the Prophets, and other parts [Page 126] of the Bible, reade a description of the Church, diffused ouer all the world beginning at Hierusalem, with po­wer to meet in Councell, and assi­stance of the Spirit; offering to God, in all Nations, a cleane oblation [...] disposed Hierarchicallie, with her watchmen euer on her walles; he [...] Pastors readie to maintaine the truth, and attending carefullie to the flock that by Errour they be not circumuented: and then, com­paring one of these vnto the other, vizt. the companie to the prophesie, the pro­phecie to the companie; in the com­parison you finde, and beleeue, (with an act of diuine faith) the true Church. It is this, as I conceaue which S. Augustine points at, in the place before cited, when he saith our Sauiour confirmed the faith o [...] his resurrection by testimonies o [...] the Prophets, S. Aug. de vnit. Eccles. c. 16 ostendens ea de s [...] impleta, que fuerant tanto ante praedi­cta, shewing those things to be fulfilled of him, which so longe before were for [...] told. And to this end he shewed hi [...] hands, and side, when he did appea­re after his resurrection. Which [Page 127] brought his disciples in minde of, foderunt manus meas & pedes meos; aspicient ad me quem confixerunt, they haue digged my hands and my feete; they shall looke vpon me whom they ha­ue pierced; and the rest mouing them to faith; and S. Thomas putting his hand in to the wound, in his Master found God.

How to finde the Church in this manner, you haue beene tould Disp. li. 2. els-where. Looking all about, on the world, and into monuments of antiquitie, you see a great compa­nie of people, reaching from the A­postles time, and stretched out in­to all Nations, communicating with the See Apostolike in the pro­fession of one and the same Reli­gion, and holding out a booke to all that will reade it. You reade; and obserue. And considering the compa­nie, you percaue the booke is a pro­phesie; for, being written long be­fore the companie was extant, it doth describe it perfectlie; and fo­retels the comming of it; with di­uers particulars that come not of necessitie but of election and free [Page 128] choise: considering the booke, you perceaue the companie to be the Church; for, there you finde it so de­liuered and affirmed by him that made the booke, Disp p. 177. who foreseeing things future, (many ages before they came to passe) certainly fore­told of it; and is worthilie belieued, as hauing such an infinite foresight and certaine comprehension of all kind of things future.

ET ipsa concilia quae per singulas regiones vel prouincide fiunt plenariorum conciliorum authoritati, quae fiunt ex vniuerso orbe Christiano, fine vllis ambagibus cedere; ipsaque plenaria saepe priora posterioribus emendari, cùm aliquo ex­perimento rerum aperitur quod clausum erat, & cogno cit [...]r quod latebat. Baro. p. 339. ex Aug.

5. IN the fift place are obiected out of S. Augustine those words, Prouinciall Councells without all tergiuersation giue place to the au­thoritie of generall Councells assembled out of all the Christian world, and ma­ny times the precedent plenarie or ge­nerall Councells are mended by the fol­lowing (plenarie Councels) when by some experiment of things, that is [Page 129] opened which was shut, and that know­ne which was vnknowne. For the vn­derstanding of which words, it is to be noted, first, that S. Augustine is there disputing with the Dona­tists, who amongst other things had obiected against the Catholikes, for their errour, Saint Cyprians au­ [...]horitie, and his writings or Epistles; and a Councell which he made, whe­ [...]ein their tenet of rebaptization was [...]ffirmed. To which three points he [...]here answers: first, if the example [...]r authoritie of S. Cyprian were of [...]uch esteeme with them, they should [...]ather followe him in embracing [...]he communion of the Si authoritas Cypriani se­q [...]ēda est, ma­gis ea sequen­da est in vnita­te seruanda, quam in Eccle­siae consuetudi­ne commutan­da. Si autem Concilium eius attēditur, huic est vniuersae Ecclesiae poste­rius Conci [...]um praeponendum S. Aug. li. 2. de Bap. c. 9 vide etiam c. 1. eius­dem li. Church; which he did; and not breake into [...]hisme, which was a thing he de­ [...]ested. Secondlie the letters and wri­ [...]ngs of S. Cyprian (and it is the [...]me of other Bishops writings) are [...]ot to be presumed so entire for [...]uth, that nothing in them Certè nobis obijcere soletis Cypriani literas, Cypriani sententiam, Cypriani concilium. Cur authoritatem Cy­priani pro vestro schismate assumitis, & eius exemplum pro Ecclesiae pace respuitis? Quis autem nesciat Sancta [...] Scripturam canonicam tam veteris quam noui testamen [...] ti certis suis terminis contineri, eamque omnibus posteriorum Episcoporum literis ita praeponi vt de illa omni [...] no dubitari non poss [...]t vtrum verum vel vtrum rectum f [...] quicquid in ea scriptum esse constiterit? Episcoporum a [...] tem literas quae post confirmatum canonem vel scripsunt vel scribuntur, & per sermonem fortè sapientiore [...] cuiuslibet in ea re peritioris, & per aliorum episcoporu [...] grauiorem authoritatem, doctiorumque prudentiam, [...] per concilia, licere reprehendi si quid in eis fortè a verita [...] deuiatum est. Et ipsa concilia quae per singulas regiones & [...] ( vt suprà pag. 128.) S. Aug. li. 2. de Baptis. con. Donat [...] c. 3. may [...]e reprehended: such integritie of an [...]pistle or other writing (vt de illa [...]ninò dubitari & disceptari non pos­ [...] vtrum verum vel vtrum rectum [...] quicquid inea Scriptum esse consti­terit,) [Page 130] is the prerogatiue of hol [...] Scripture. Thirdlie prouinciall Synods (such as that of S. Cyprian) yeel [...] vnto generall Councells, which a [...] assembled out of the whole worl [...] S. Aug. li. 2. cont. Donat. cap. 9. vniuersum partibus, semper in [...] optimo praeponitur, the whole is deso [...] uedlie preferd before the part. Such [...] Councell, hath now determined th [...] controuersie; the world subscribe [...] and S. Cyprian would haue yeeld [...] too; wherefore you haue no reaso [...] to stand any longer, vpon his Cou [...] cell, or his writings; or to pretend [...] [Page 131] example and authoritie.

By this S. Augustine hath fullie answered the Donatists obiection. Yet, hauing by that occasion, men­tioned generall Councells, Our B. Sa­uiour someti­mes in his an­swers taught more then was demaunded, as Matth. 21 36. Queadmodū in superioribus cū de resurrectione interrogaretur, plus docuit quā tentantes pete­bant: sic in hoc loco de primo in­terrogatus man­dato, secundum etiam non valdè quàm primum inferius spo [...]te attulit. S. Chry. Homil. 72. in Matth. of him selfe he goes further; and saies, that some of those, otherwhile, may be [...]mended also; Suprà pag. 128. when by some expe­riment of things that is opened which was shut vp before, and that knowne which was vnknowne. Where, adui­sedlie, (treating of so great a matter,) [...]he hath ballanced his words; and not [...]eft the speach, absolute; as he did the other next before, of prouinciall Councells; but limited it, with two qualifications; the one restraining it from being extended vnto all; saepè; not alwaies this; but, oft: the other contracting it to the case or matter, when that which was shut vp, is opened by some experiment of things. Which metaphor of opening, he doth expound presentlie in other words, not adding another case, but expressing more the same which was before deliue­red vnder the Metaphor of opening, & cognoscitur quod latebat, and (by the same experiment of things) that [Page 132] is knowne which was before vnknowne.

Secondlie it is to be noted, that S. Augustine doth vrge against these heretikes the definition of a generall Councell, wherein by the consent, as he speakes, of the whole world, the S. Aug. de Haeres. n. 69. controuersie was decided; and the truth established, so, that now the men were heretikes who resisted the veritie; though befo­re the definition they were not (for holding what they did in this matter of rebaptization) guiltie of so great a crime. In this sort he doth excuse S. Cyprian; and accuse, or charge the Donatists. S. August. de Hares. n. 69. They presu­me, saies he, to rebaptize Catholikes wherein they did further confirme, th [...] they were heretikes; it hauing seeme [...] good to the vniuersall Church, not [...] reuoake (or as another lection hath it, not to repeate) the common baptisme, euen in heretikes themselues. And S. Aug li. 1. cont. Donat. c. 7. the obscuritie of this question, (of ba­ptisme, disputed with the Dona­tists,) hath in the former times of the Church before the schisme of Donatu [...] compelled great men and those endowe [...] with great charitie, Fathers, Bishop [...] [Page 133] so to contend amongst themselues, wi­thout breach of peace, and so to wauer, that the different decrees of Councels in their seuerall Countries did longe time shake, vntill that which was most wholesomely iudged, was, (remotis du­bitationibus,) all doubts remoued, esta­blished by a plenarie or generall Coun­cell of the whole world. Againe, Ibidem cap. 18. before the consent of the whole world had established by the decree of a gene­rall Councell what was to be embraced of all in this matter, S. Cyprian with almost fourscore of his fellowe-Bi­shops of the Churches of Africk, thought that euerie one who was baptized out of the communion of the Catholike Church, was, when he came to the Church, to be baptized or christned a­gaine. And againe, S. Aug. li. 2. cont. Donat. c. 9. Consuetudinis robore teneba­tur orbis terra­rum, & haec sola opponebatur, &c. Ibidem. as yet there had been no generall Councell assembled in that behalfe, but the world was held in by the strength of custome, and this custome onlie was opposed to those which endeuoured to bring in that noueltie (of rebaptization) because they could not apprehend the truth; yet afterwards, whilst amongst many on both sides it is spoken of, and sought, it is not only so­und [Page 134] out, but also brought to the autho­ritie and strength of a generall Councell, after Cyprians passion indeed, but afore wee were borne. And a litle after the words obiected. c. 4. Neither durst wee affirme any such thing if wee were not well grounded vpon the most con­senting or agreeable authoritie of the vniuersall Church, vnto which vn­doubtedlie he (S. Cyprian) would haue yeelded if as then, the truth of this que­stion, being cleered and declared, had been established by a generall Councell. Hence it followes, first that he did acknowledge in generall Coun­cells, authoritie to determine con­trouersies; and this controuersie par­ticularlie of rebaptization, (which you Error de rebaptizatione hereticorum, qui certè fun­damentalis [...]o fu [...], no [...]dum erat in conci­lio plenario damnatus &c. Baro p. 348. confesse was not in a mat­ter fundamentall;) and that, the­rein the truth was established by au­thoritie, (not of scripture, this mat­ter was not so resolued; but) of the world, in a Councell; and so farre esta­blished, that all, were to beleeue it, and, remotis dubitationibus, without as much as doubting of it. Whence it comes secondlie, that to resist such a decree it is diabolicall, which word [Page 135] he doth vse vppon another occa­sion, and that such as maintaine the contrarie, are indeed, heretikes.

Thirdlie it is to be repeated (which hath been said oft before) that though wee maintaine the infallibi­litie of sincere and approued gene­rall Councells, in their decrees of faith, yet wee doe not beleeue that their infallibilitie is extended vnto all they write or speake, and in all kinde of matter; as not equallizing their acts with bookes of Scripture; and consequentlie, there may be so­mething in such a Councell, some­time, that may need mending. Nei­ther yet doe wee maintaine or be­leeue, that all Councells which goe vnder the name of generall, haue in­fallibilitie in their decrees; some haue, as those which are approued; some haue not, and these later may need mending, euen in the decree they make touching faith. Moreouer, though the Councell that is plena­rie and approued, cannot commaund a vice, or condemne vertue by de­cree, yet may it commaund that which after may proue inconue­nient, [Page 136] or forbid what after may be admitted when circumstances are changed. And, if a lawe which at first was well made, (the circum­stances of time and persons being afterwards other then they were be­fore and notablie changed,) become inconuenient, (and consequentlie not good in these circumstances, though good in it selfe, and in other circumstances, such as those were wherein it was first made,) it may be changed, by power equall to that which made it. The Apostles, by decree, did forbid the eating of suf­focata, things strangled; yet after­wards, when the circumstances we­re charged and feare of scandall quite remoued, the Church began to doe the contrarie. To frequent the ceremonies of the lawe, now, it were a Sinne, peccaret mortalitersi quis nunc ceremonias obscruaret. S. Tho. 1.2. q. 103. a. 4. though you knowe by what authoritie (for the time) they were commaunded. If you be sick, physick is good; if you be well, the same is bad for you. The same thing, may be conuenient, and in­conuenient, [Page 137] good and bad, in diuers circumstances. When the common-wealth is distempered, a lawe may be necessarie; and at other times, not vsefull, yea inconuenient; and the­refore to be annulled. And the com­mon-wealth in anulling of it, mends her Statute-booke, respectiuelie to these later circumstances; though when she made it first she did not commit a fault.

Fourthlie it is to be noted that by the doctrine of S. Augustine before deliuered, there be some kinde of Councells which in their decrees of faith are not to be mended, nor to be doubted of; that it is hereticall to op­pose them; and consequentlie, that they haue nor exteriour onlie, but interiour obedience also (remotis dubi­tationibus) due, to such, their decrees: which being manifest in him, you labour in vaine to be extend his words obiected, vnto all: which we­re to make him contradict, both the truth, and the Church of his time, and himselfe. He saith, and wee too, that some generall Councells may be mended, when by tryall or experi­ment that is opened which was shut vp, [Page 138] and knowne which before was vn­knowne; but some generall Councells cannot be mended; no, nor questioned or doubted of, in their decrees tou­ching faith. Now to your obiections in particular.

First you saie that he speakes of mending in matter of faith; I answer that those words, in matter of faith, be your addition. He speakes indeed, of mending in such matters as by triall or experiment may be knowne, but, diuine verities which are the ob­iect of our faith, be not of this nature. Neither if there had been expressed in that clause, (which is of generall Councels,) matters of faith, were you able to conclude any thing a­gainst vs, for wee graunt that some which beare the name, may be men­ded in that, also. Of all wee cannot graunt it, without contradicting S. Augustine, and making him wi­thall to contradict himselfe.

Secondlie you saie that his scope or intention was to distinguish the authoritie of Scripture from all o­ther authoritie, wherefore since no generall Councell whatsoeuer, is [Page 139] Scripture, he meanes them all; and will haue all subiect vnto mending. I answer, that he intended to satisfie three things obiected. 1. S. Cyprians sentence or example. 2. S. Cyprians writings. 3. S. Cyprians Councell. The comparison of Scripture, is with writings; and it is a part of his answer to the Second point; as I haue related it. And it is true, that this writing hath the prerogatiue aboue all wri­tings, vide suprà, pag. 130. & pag. 106. marg. that nothing at all can be que­stioned, which it affirmes. To S. Cy­prians Epistles, or any other mans, wee owe not that seruice or honour. Of Councels he speakes afterwards, in the third place; and you knowe that, it is not essentiall to their decrees, to be written. There is also great difference, betwixt Councells and the Scripture, in infallibilitie, (as hath been showne many times;) although the decrees in faith, (of such as are approued) are infallible. But if you will haue him aime at this, that all generall Councels whatsoeuer, may be mended, and in their decrees of faith, you make him, as before was obserued, to contradict himselfe. [Page 140] For, these are contradictorie; some may not, as that of Nice; and, all may. Moreouer by that saepè, it is mani­fest that his speach is not generall, as you would haue it; saepè, is short of Semper. And the qualification which he doth vse, is another argu­ment of the same.

Thirdlie you saie that vnles S. Augustine speake in the words prin­cipallie obiected, of amendment in matter of faith, he leaues vnanswe­red, the Donatists obiection. But neither will this make any thing to your purpose; for, before he co­mes to speake of amending plena­rie Councells, he hath fullie satisfied the three points of their argument, taken from S. Cyprians example; from his writings, or Epistles; and, from his Coūcell: his example should haue moued them rather to adhere vnto the Church; his writings were not canonicall Scripture; they might haue something in them lia­ble to reprehension; Suprà in marg. &c. in additio­nibus. and his Councell; being onlie nationall, was to giue place to a generall. There staies their argument, whollie satisfied. [Page 141] The rest was added for a fuller illu­stration of the matter of Councells, wherevnto that occasion had led him. They be not all of one nature; some kinde of mending or other, they be subiect to, sometimes; though not all vnto the same. Wee doe not, of necessitie, so adhere vn­to them all, as if nothing, in any, Saepè priora, à posterioribus e­mendantur. But I pray you what amend­ment had he seene in the De­crees of faith, of approued gene­rall Councels? shew me the saepè there. Na­me, out of him, the Coū ­cells; and the decrees so mē ­ded. might be better then it is. The Ari­minian was generall, but he would not maintaine it; the second Ephe­sine was generall, yet the Councell of Chalcedon did anull it. Yea, sup­pose the decrees of faith be all right, and the Councell lawfull and appro­ued, yet something otherwhiles may be mended; as, when by some expe­riment of things that comes to light which before was vnknowne.

Moreouer, in that you saie the Donatists argument is not answe­red, vnles it be graunted, that any generall Councell whatsoeuer, may be mended in their decree, touching faith; you seeme to call their here­sie againe into dispute: for, that which S. Augustine so much vrgeth against them (and it was the thing [Page 142] indeed which choked that Here­sie,) was the decree of a generall Coun­cell. And it is strange you should imagine that he doth heere in the same booke disauow the same de­cree; as if his answer to their weake obiection could not haue place, but by cutting the throate of his owne Argument, which they durst not looke vpon; and, that his owne for­ces, of necessitie must be ruined and oppressed, with the fall of their cause.

Looke better on his words: and in them you shall finde that he re­solued as wee do. He saith touching this Controuersie with the Donatists, that it was taken into consideration, and the Nec nos ipsitale aliquid auderemus as­serere, nisi vni­uersae Ecclesiae concordissima authoritate fir­mati: cui & ip­se (Cyprianus) sine dubio ce­deret, si iam il­lo tēpore quae­stionis huius veritas eliqua­ta & declarata per pleuarium Concilium so­lidaretur S Aug li. 2. de Bapt. c 3. truth declared, and Postea ta­men dum inter multos ex v­traque parte tractatur & quaeritur, non solum inuenta est (veritas,) sed etiam ad plenarij Con­cilij authoritatē roburque per­ducta. c. 9. established, by the vt suprà num. 1. & 2. authoritie (not by plaine Scripture, there was none; but by the authoritie) of the Si autem Concilium eius (Cypriani) attēditur, huic est vniuersae Ecclesiae posterius Concilium praeponendum. cap. 9. vt suprà. Totus Catholicus orbis amplexus est. li. 1. c. 18. vniuersall Church: and this autho­ritie not in the Laietie, or diffused; but in suprà. plenario totius orbis Concilio c. 7. a Councell, wherein the Ante­quam plenarij Concilij sententia quid in hac resentiendum esset totius Ecclesiae consensio confirmasset. li. 1. c. 18. whole Church did in Ibid. a Decree, expresse her minde. So that (al­though before, men perchance might Salua pace disceptare atque fluctuare, vt diu concilio­rum in suis quibusque regionibus diuersa statuta nutaue­rint, donec. li. 1 c. 7. doubt or stagger in the [Page 143] matter,) it was now to be beleeued Donec plenario totius orbis con­cilio, quod saluberrimè sentiebatur, etiam remotis dubita­tionibus firmaretur. Ibidem. remotis dubitationibus; and nutauerint, donec. Ibid. Cui & ipse sine dubio cederet &c vt suprà. obedience to be giuen to the decree, (whereof Ammedera dixit, Et hoc ego idem censeo Haereticos baptizandos esse. Huic respondetur; Sed non hoc censet Ecclesia, cui Deus iam plenario etiam Concilio reuelauit; quod tunc adhuc aliter quidem sapiebatis, sed quia in vobis charitas salua erat, in vnitate permanebatis. S. Aug li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. vide disput. p. 404. God had beene au­thor,) by all who would not expose themselues to be Scripturarum etiam in hac re à nobis tenetur veritas, cum hoc facimus quod vniuersae iam placuit Ecclesiae. li 1. cont. Crescon. c. 33. quisquis falli metuit eandem consulat &c. Ibidem. vt suprà. deceaued, and most perniciouslie striue against Quòd si non vis, non mihi aut cuiquam homini, qui vult ita sus­cipere, sed ipsi Saluatori contra salutem tuam perniciosissi­mè reluctatis, qui te sic susciptendum esse non vis credere quemadmodum suscipit illa Ecclesia quam testimonio suo commendat ille cui fateris nefarium esse non credere. De vnit Eccles. c 19. our Sauiour himself; and confirme or assure themselues to be Audent etiam (Donatistae) reba­ptizare Catholicos, vbi se ampliûs Haereticos esse firmarunt, cùm Ecclesiae Catholicae vniuersae placuerit nec in ipsis Haereticis baptisma rescindere. S. Aug. de Haeres num 69. expende verbum illud (ampliùs) quod indicat gradum, in eo­dem genere. He­reticks. [Page 144] This, I trow, doth import as much as wee teach of a Councells authoritie. And the grounds whe­reby S. Augustine could haue de­fended himself, at that time and in that case, be the same whereby wee now defend our selues in other cau­ses of no lesse importance; as, of the reall presence, propitiatorie Sacri­fice, prayer for the dead; and the like: the diuine assistance being not tied peculiarlie vnto that Age whe­rein S. Augustine liued.

Fourthlie you saie, those words & cognoscitur quod latebat, and that it knowne which was before vnknowne; be meant in matter of faith, because matters of faith doe come to light after they haue been vnknowne. As if this were a peculiar thing in matters of faith, and not common to [Page 145] diuers other matters, euen those which by experiment may be know­ne, to come to light after inquisition. there are many other verities which may so come to light, besides mat­ters of faith, and therefore vnlesse you will argue from the genus to the species, affirmatiuelie, as thus; it is aliuing creature, therefore it is a man; which manner of discourse is absurd, you cannot out of those ge­nerall words, make it good or pro­ue, that he meanes matter of faith; not, if this part were disioyned frō the former with a vel; for, there were yet other things which might so come to light besides matters of faith; all other verities are not manifested by triall and experiment, though some be: much lesse can you doe it [...]f you consider that the later part and the former be coupled into the same sence, by the coniunctiue &. [...] answer secondlie that, were mat­ [...]ers of faith expressed in that part, [...] for of that part onlie which con­ [...]ernes plenarie Councells I speake,) [...]s it is manifest they be not; still [...]ou were short of your aime; for, [Page 146] some kinde of generall Councells, such as are vnlawfull, or such as are lawfull but not approued, (though you would neuer be able to proue so much out of this place) might nee­de mending; and yet, approued and confirmed Councels need none.

I knowe that some of yours doe sleight the distinction of confirmed and not confirmed Councels, as a thing not knowne to S. Augustine and other Auncients; but they be mistaken much. If you looke into the tome of his Epistles you will see that S. Aug. Ep. 90. he, with many other Bi­shops, in a Councell, wrote vnto Pope Innocentius, to confirme their acts and decree made against those errours which Pelagius and Caelesti [...] had auouched; vt statutis nostrae me­diocritatis etiam Apostolicae sedis ad­hibeatur authoritas; that to the decree [...] of our mediocritie, the authoritie of the See Apostolike be added. And after­wards, error & impietas quae tam mul­tos assertores habet & per diuersa dis­persos, etiā Apostolicae sedis authorita­te anathematizanda est. The errour and impietie (of those men) which hath so many abbetters, and those disperse [...] [Page 147] in diuers parts or places, is to be anathe­matized also by the authoritie of the See Apostolike. Wherevnto the Pope answers, (and his Epistle is there Apud S Aug. Epist. 91. also) first, commending them for requiring, as they ought to doe, the iudgment of the See Apostolike, scientes quid Apostolicae sedi debeatur; Secondlie, confirming this obliga­tion, the Fathers saith he non humana sed diuina decreuere sententia vt quic­quid de disiunctis remotisque prouincijs ageretur, non prius ducerent finiendum nisi ad huius sedis notitiam perueniret, vbi tot a huius authoritate iusta que fue­rit pronunciatio, firmaretur; the fathers haue decreed by a sentence not huma­ne but diuine, (marke the words) that whatsoeuer should be donne in di­s [...]oyned and remote prouinces, they should not esteeme it to be ended, vnles it come first to the notice of this See, where the proposition or sentence which is iust should be established with the whole authoritie of this. Thirdlie, he decla­tes, quisquis huic assentiens videtur esse sententiae (speaking of the the Pelagian errour) nimium se Catho­licae fidei, & Dei beneficijs profitetur [Page 148] ingratum, who soeuer seemes to con­sent into this opinion, doth professe him­selfe an enemie to the Catholike faith, and ingratefull to gods benefits. And in fine, he cuts the faction of, from communion, separetur ergo &c.

Neither doth S. Augustine omit to giue notice of this answer, for in the 106. Epistle, hauing signified the sending of the acts of the foresaid Councell, and of another also, a­gainst the same errours; together with letters to the same purpose, to Pope Innocentius; he saith, S. Aug. Epist. 106. vide eundem Epist. 104. item serm. 2. de verbis A­postoli & li. 2. cont. duas Epist. Pelag. c. 3. ad omnia nobis ille rescripsit, eodem mo­do quo fas erat, atque oportebat, Aposto­licae sedis antistitem. He wrote vs an answer to all things in such manner as a Bishop of the see Apostolike lawfullie might before god, and ought to doe. Ad­ding also els-where, that by those letters, dubitatio tota sublata est, al [...] doubt in that matter was taken away. I omit to put you further in minde that the Councell of Relat. Conc. Chalc. ad Leo­nem Papam. Chalce­don asked of Leo the great, as their Head and Father, confirmation of their decrees; which he also gaue, though Leo Papa Epist. 55. ad Pulch. Aug. not in all they desired, [Page 149] and thereby did manifest the fullnes of his authoritie. It were easie to bring many examples in this kind, were I professedlie to treat of it, but keeping my self (as I haue donne he­therto) to those authors you obiect, it sufficeth to satisfie by S. Augustines authoritie the difficulties which you bring out of S. Augustine. The ne­cessitie of the Popes approbation you finde elswhere, Disput. li. 4. c. 4. and it is a thing so manifest by the Scripture ( Matth. 16. & Ioan. 21.) that he, in his Pre­decessor S. Peeter, is peculiarlie desi­gned as Chiefe of those Pastors on whom the Church is to relie for the knowledg and meaning of Gods word, according to the Apostles do­ctrine, Ephes. 4. Ephes. 2.20. Epist. Iudae. v. 20 (which Pastors are therefore assisted accordinglie, to support the faithfull built vppon them,) that all other interpretation which would exclude it, is violent vnto the text; and, Disput. li. 4. c. 1. & 2. inasmuch as it labours to remoue the foundation which our Sauiour laide, doth inde­uour (though vainelie, for it is more then Hell can do,) to ruine the who­le Church.

The pretence of plaine Scripture, or of manifest reason (such as an vn­derstanding man considering, cannot but assent vnto,) against the consent of all the Pastors in a Councell, is openly insufficient, because it doth suppose (and without, yea against all reason) that they, (the Pastors) with all their Exercise in Diuinitie and diligent inquisition, looking into and considering the words of Scripture, comparing texts together, examining the traditions of the Church, perusing former Councels, with the writings of the Fathers, and other monuments of antiquitie; and assisted by the Holie Ghost their in­teriour Master; be not as able (as their aduersaries) to conceaue plaine Scripture, Innumerabiles sunt qui se vi­dentes non so­lùm [...]actāt, sed à Christo illu­minatos videri volunt. sunt autem Haereti­ci. S. Augu. in Ioan. tract. 45. and reason so manifest: or, that conceauing and vnderstan­ding it, they should be, all, so mali­cious, (and our Sauiour so vnmind­full of his promise) as to propose vnto the world and oblige it to be­leeue as our Sauiours words, the con­trarie. But it is familiar in such Op­ponents as want them selues that Authoritie which the Sonne of God [Page 151] hath established to keepe vs from Errour, to pretend euident Scripture and manifest Illi, qui cum in vnitate atque commu­nione catholi­ca nō sint Chri­stiano tamen nomine glo­riantur, cogun­tur aduersari credentibus, & audent imperi­tos quasi ratio­ne traducere, quando maxi­mé cum ista medicina Do­minus venerit vt fidem popu­lis imperaret. Sed hoc facere coguntur quia iacere se abiectissimè sen­tiunt si eorum authoritas cum authoritate catholica confe­ratur. Conantur ergo authoritatem stabilissimam funda­tissimae Ecclesiae quasi rationis nomine & pollicitatione su­perare. Omnium enim Haereticorum quasi regularis est ista temeritas. Sed ille fidei imperator clementissimus, & per conuentus celeberrimos populorum atque gentium, se­desque ipsas Apostolorum, arce authoritatis muniuit Eccle­siam, & per pauciores piè doctos & verè spirituales viros copiosissimis apparatibus etiam inuictissimae rationis ar­mauit. S. Aug. Epist. ad Diosc. 56. reason against the Church, to the end they may seeme to bring something greater for to oppresse or ouercome her authori­tie, as S. Augustine well obserued long agoe. And by the like strata­gem did the pagās heeretefore striue to withdraw men whollie from the Creede, by shewing the contrarie so cleerelie that no doubt, as they pretended, could be made of it; which was a way they thought, to get In Catholica me tenet consensio populorum atque gentium &c. apud vos autem vbi nihil horum est quod me inuitet ac teneat, sola personat veritatis pollicitatio, quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur vt in dubium venire non possit, praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in ca­tholica teneor. Si autem tantummodo promittitur & non exhibetur, nemo me mouebit ab ea fide quae animum meum tot & tantis nexibus Christianae religionis astringit. S. Aug. contra Epist. Manich. Fundam c. 4. Promitteba [...] scientiam veritatis, & nunc quod nescio cogis vt credam. c. 5. Multò iustiùs & cautiùs facio si catholicis quoniam semel credidi, ad te non transeo, nisi me, non credere iusteris, sed manifestissimè ac apertissimè scire aliquid feceris. Quocirca si mihi rationem redditùrus es, dimitte Euangelium. Si ad Euangelium me tenes, ego ad eos me teneam quibus prae­cipientibus Euangelio credidi, & his iubentibus tibi omni­no non ctedam. Quod si fortè in Euangelio aliquod aper­tissimum de Manichaei apostolatu inuenire potueris, in­firmabis mihi catholicorum authoritatem qui iubent mi­hi vt tibi non credam. Qua infirmata, iam nec Euangelio credere potero &c. Sed absit vt ego Euangelio non cre­dam. Ibidem. schollers, but it proued a meere bragge.

§. X.

1. Optatus cited his Aduersaries, who refu­sed to submitte them selues to the Church, to be tryed by the Testament, admitted by themsel­ues. But the cause it self, was, in the iudgment of the whole Catholike world, to be decided in a Councell: and was, in fine, so determined.

2. For finding out the truth, in matter of faith, recourse is to be made to the fountaine.

[Page 153]VOs dicitis licet; nos, non licet. inter licet vestrum & non licet nostrum nutant & remigant animi populorum Ne­mo vobis credat, nemo nobis: omnes contentiosi homines sumus. (Esto.) Quaerendi sunt iudices, si Christiani, de vtraque parte dari non possunt, quia studijs veritas impeditur. Deforis quae­rendus est Iudex: si paganus, non potest nosse Christiana secre­ta; si Iudaeus inimicus est Christiani baptismatis. Ergo in terri [...] nullum de hac re reperiri po [...]erit iudictum, de caelo quaerendus est Iudex. Sed vt quid palsamus ad caelum cum habeamus hic in Euangelio testamentum. Baro p. 328. ex Optato.

1. HAuing answered what was obiected out of S. Augu­gustine; he, will vndertake, for vs, to satisfie that you bring from Op­tatus. and where he lookes about for a Iudge to decide the controuer­sie moued by the Donatists, this great Doctour doth answer, yea the S. A [...]g. con­tra Donati [...]tas passim. Specia­liter vide li. 2. de Bapt c. 7 li 5. c. 23. & li. 1. co [...]t. Cresc. c. 31. & 32 whole Catholike world did agree, that the matter was to be defined in Councell; and that, not by cleere scripture; there was none; but by tradition. By the testament; yes. not the written, but, the nuncupatiue. By the holie Ghost, S Aug suprà inter citat. ex Ock lit. 1. a iudge from hea­uen; but, speaking (b) in a Coun­cell. The whole world did iudge, that this verie Controuersie whereof Op­tatus [Page 154] speakes, was to be determined so; and accordinglie it was so deter­mined and ended.

Neither doth Optatus denie, that which all Catholikes when Saint Augustine wrote, graunted, (and he himselfe yeelded as much of the Serpit corum sermo v [...]lut can­cer. dixit hoc de haereticis quo­rum caeperat esse illis tem­poribus vitiosa doctrina, &c. Dictum est hoc & de Arrio, cuius doctrina nisi Nicaeno Concilio à 318. Episcopis dissi­paretur, pectora multorum si­cut cancer in­trauerat. Optat. Milleu. li. 4. Nicene Councell, of whose autho­ritie wee shall presentlie heare mo­re from S. Anathasius who was in it,) that the Church, which hath promise of assistance, or the Pastors, all assembled in a Coūcell, those whom the holie Ghost hath placed to go­uerne, and our Sauiour hath giuen to keepe vs from being borne about with euerie winde of doctrine, haue power to determine a controuer­sie in Religion: But, the Dona­tists excepting against the Catholi­kes, as parties in the cause, he beta­kes himselfe to scripture; against which (being admitted on both si­des) that pretended exception, had no place. children that contend a­bout a Legacie, both admit their fa­ther testament; and, if there, his words decide the controuersie; they rest: and so, he pleades, the Dona­tists [Page 155] must do when the words of our Sauiours will or testament be sho­wed; vnles they proceede (as they had denied Church-authoritie, so) to denie that, and him. So on he goes to shewe the thing, inscripture. But what if the words of the testamēt be obscure? The matter then requires a Iudge; and this Iudge must haue authoritie, and assistance; if the case be, as this was, about diuine faith: which assistance, none hath, but by vertue of our Sauiours promise; and his promise was made to none but to the Church; not to Pagans, nor he­retikes; but, to the Church: whe­refore, the Church is to iudge. Yet further: what if the words of the te­stament haue it not at all? the que­stion was, Whether one baptized by an heretike was to be baptized againe when he came into the Church. The answer to which Question, you doe not finde in scripture; the Qui lotus est &c. place which Optatus brings doth not mention such as were ba­ptized by heretikes. There is not in all scripture Saint Augustine saies, an Quamuia huius rei certè de scripturis canonicis non proferatur ex­emplum &c. S. Aug. li. cont. Cresc. c. 33 vt suprà. Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praece­perunt, sed con­suetudo illa quae opponebatur Cypriano, ab eorum traditio­ne exordium sumpsisse cre­denda est; sicut sunt multa quae vniuersa tenet Ecclesia, & ob hoc ab Aposto­lis praecepta benè credūtur, quanquam scri­pta non reperian tur. li. 5. de bapt. c. 23. Cùm in Scripturis non inueniamus a­liquos &c. De vnitate Ecclesiae c. 19. example of it. Shall the mat­ter [Page 156] then rest; and the Donatists, a­gainst the custome and practize of the Church, obtaine the cause? There is yet a remedie; and this is, to call a Councell, from all parts of the world; and there, by the promised assistance, to decide it. Which was done accordinglie, and in the heart of the Church symbolicall, the boo­ke wherein Christian Religion is writ­ten by the spirit of the liuing God, it was found, and brought to light; and proposed. And to this iudgment, all Catholikes afterward did sub­scribe, and S. Cyprian also who in his time thought the other more probable, would, if wee beleeue Saint Augustine, most willinglie ha­ue donne; and such as would not (hauing notice of it) were, and are, accounted Heretikes.

2. Hence (that I note this by the way) wee take an Argument against you to proue by the iud­gment of Antiquitie, two things. 1. that the Church can propose and o­blige vs to beleeue that which she hath receaued onlie by word of mouth. 2. that our Sauiour did not [Page 157] limit his promised Assistance, to fun­damentalls onlie. Not onlie to fun­damentals, nor onlie to the written word. Wee haue, I saie, in these two things, the iudgment of the Church which was in, and before Saint Au­gustines daies, against you. They did inquire, diligentlie, what had beene taught formerlie, what tradition had been left in the Church by those who first planted Religion in it; they made recourse to the fountaine. Which kind of proceeding for the resolution of difficulties, had beene commended to them from the Quid enim & si de aliqua modica quae­stione discep­tatio esset, nō ­ne oporteret in antiquissimas recurrere Ecclesias, in quibus Apostoli conuersati sunt, & ab ijs de praesenti quaestione sumere quod certum & reli­quidum est? Quid autem si neque Apostoli quidem Scri­pturas reliquissent nobis, nonne oportebat ordinem sequi Traditionis, quam tradiderunt ijs quibus committebant Ecclesias, cu [...]ordinationi assentiunt multae gentes Barba­rorum, eorum qui in Christum credunt sinc charactere vel atramento scriptam habentes per Spiritum in cordibus suis salutem, & veterem traditionem diligenter custodien­tes &c. S. Irenaeus adu. Haeres. li 3. c 4. cuius capitis initio Non oportet, inquit, adhuc quaerere apud alios veritatem, cùm Apostoli quasi in depositorium diues, plenissimè in ea (Ecclesia) contulerint omnia quae sint veritatis, vti om­nis quicunque velit, sumat ex ea potum vitae. Et Optatus in hanc sententiam Nam & fontem, inquit, constat vnam esse de dotibus, vnde Haeretici non possunt vel ipsi bibere, vel alios potare. ita li. 2. Caeterùm lege in Irenaeo c. 3. li. 3. vbi de traditione praeclarè disserit. In compendio est apud reli­giosas & simplices mentes, & errorem deponere, & inue­nire atque cruere veritatem. Nam si ad diuinae Traditionis caput & originem reuertamur, cessat error humanus; & sacramentorum coelestium ratione perspecta, quicquid sub caligine ac nube tenebrarum obscurum latebat, in lu­cem veritatis aperitur. Si canalis aquam ducens qui co­piosè priùs & largiter profluebat, subitò deficiat, nonne ad fontem pergitur, vt illic defectionis ratio noscatur, vtrumne arescentibus venis in capite vnda siccauerit; (sic­cata sit;) an verò integra inde & plena procurrens, in me­dio itinere destiterit: vt si vitio interrupti aut bibuli cana­lis effectum est, quo minus aqua continua perseueranter ac iugiter flueret, refecto & confirmato canali ad vsum at­que potum ciuitatis aqua collecta eadem vbertate atque integritate representetur, qua de fonte proficiscitur. Quod & nunc facere oportet Dei Sacerdotes praecepta diuina seruantes, vt si aliquo nutauerit & vacillauerit veritas, ad originem Dominicam & Euangelicam, & Apostolicam Traditionem reuertamur; & inde surgat actus nostri ratio, vnde & ordo & origo surrexit. S. Cyprianus Epist. 74 ad Pompeium. De qua ep. vide S. Aug li. 5. contra Donat. c. 23 & 25. Vide etiam de modo veritatem inuestigandi, Tertullia­num, lib. de Praescript. c. 19. 20. 21. &c. beginning; and was in after-ages still approued, as appeares by the See the To­mes of Councels practice of the Church vpō all oc­casions of importance.

§. XI.

Saint Athanasius esteemed it a vaine thing for those who would not stand vnto the Nicene decree, to call for Councels. He did esteeme the decree of it, infallible. Of diuers infallible Au­thorities, one may he more powerfull and com­maunding then another.

FRustra igitur circumcursitantes praetexerunt ob fidem se Sy­nodos postulare, cum sit diuina Scriptura omnibus poten­tior. Quod si ad hanc rem vsus Synodi desideratur, supersunt acta patrum: nam neque in hac parte negligentes fuere qui Ni­ceae conuenerunt, sed ita accuratè scripserunt vt qui sinceriter eorum scripta legat, facilè reminiscatur eius in Christum religio­nis quae à sacris literis annunciatur. Baro. p. 327. ex Atha­nasio.

S. ATHANASIVS was at the Coun­cell of Nice, where the Arian heresie was anathematized, and the Catholike faith established; yet he is also brought against the authori­tie of all generall Councells; first be­cause he tels the Arians, (who would not stād to the iudgmēt of that Coū ­cell which was oecumenicall, and yet cried out for Councells,) that [Page 160] in vaine they runne about the world pretending they required Councells for the faith, whereas the diuine scri­pture is more powerfull then all. Secondlie because he saith that, who so reades the writings or acts of the Nicene fathers, they will easilie call to minde that Religion which is sho­wed in holie scripture.

I am not yet so learned as to con­ceaue how, the infallibilitie of Coū ­cels is any waie contradicted in the­se words; so farre I am from thin­king that this great Saint did forget himselfe, and vndoe what with o­thers he before had donne. The de­cree of the Nicene Councell, toge­ther with the Acts, did so bring to minde the faith commended in the scri­pture, that withall it had force, he saith, enough to Quis vsus quaeso Conci­liorum, quum Nicaenum Cō ­cilium aduersus Arianam caeterasque haereses satis valeat? S. Athanas. de Synodis. Indecens & nefarium aliquid ex rectè & iustè decretis, & ex rebus Niceae publicè cum illustris­simo principe Constantino patre tuo per accuratam deli­berationem constitutis immutare velle, &c. per quam (Sy­nodum) non illa sola, sed & reliquae haereses sublatae sunt, in qua certè & addere aliquid temerarium est, & auferre periculosum. Ibidem epist. Synod, ad Constantium. August. [...]ufficiunt ea quae Niceae confessa fuere, satisque per se vi­ [...]um habent, tum ad subuersionem impij dogmatis, tum ad [...]telam vtilitatemque Ecclesiasticae doctrinae. Idem in E­ [...]st. ad Episc. Africae. ouerthrowe the cō ­trarie, [Page 161] and to put the matter Ego arbi­trabar omniū quotquot vn­quā fuere hae­reticorum ina­nem garrulitatē Nicaeno Concilio sedatam esse. nā fides quae inibi a Patribus secū ­dū sacras Scri­pturas tradita, & confessioni­bus confirmata est, satis mihi idonea, efficax que videbatur ad omnem im­pietatem euer­tendam, & pie­tatem eius quae in Christo est fi­dei constituen­dā Atque ideo diuersis Conci­lijs per Galliā & Hispanias, & Romae celebra­tis, omnes qui in eo conuentu fuere, istos lu­ci fugas qui sese etiamnum occultant & quae Arrij sunt sapiunt, comm [...] calculo vnius Spiritus incitatu anathemate percusserunt, e [...] quod isti sibi nomina vendicauerint Synodorum &c. [...] Athanas. Epist. ad Epictet. Qua igitur audacia fit vt post tan­ti Concilij authoritatem disceptationes aut quaestiones inf [...] ­tuant? Ibidem. out [...] question; and so farre, that, who [...] did oppose themselues, were Ego autem demiratus sum tuam pietatem haec susti­nuisse, quod non simul & istos compescuerit, & piam [...] ­dem (in Concilio Nicaeno traditam vt suprà) illis propos [...]e­rit, vt ijs auditis vel in quietem se darent, vel si inquieti in­tradicerent haeretici homines iudicarentur. Ibidem. [...]ereticks. It was a vaine thing so he steemed it, in the Arians by other Coūcells, to seek to reuerse what was [...]ere established; the definition of [...]e holie Ghost, there made, the word [...]f God, by that Councell, remaines fo­ [...]uer; Vanus eorum labor qui contra illud (Nicenum) ali [...] subinde concilia moliuntur, quippe qui plusquam decem sy­nodos iam instituerint, in singulis semper aliquid inno­uantes &c. ignari interim omnem plantationem qua [...] non plantauerit pater caelestis cradicandam esse: verb [...] autem illud Domini per oecumenicam Niceae Synodum in a­ternum manet. S Athanas. Epist. ad Episc. Africae. verbum illud Domini per [...]licaenum Concilium manet in aeter­ [...]um.

As for the comparison which he [...]akes, with scripture; it Catholici Scripturam Sacram non subijciunt sed ante­ponunt Concilijs: neque in hoc vlla controuersia es [...] Bellarm. li. 2. de Concilijs c. 12. Quod si interdum aliq [...] Catholici dicunt Scripturam pendere ab Ecclesia siue [...] Concilio, non intelligunt quoad authoritatem & secun­dum se, sed quoad explicationem & quoad nos. Ibidem. hurteth [...]ot. He that saith, the scripture where it is plaine and vniuersallie [...]eceaued, is more powerfull then a Councell; or that, the eternall ve­ [...]tie opēlie reuealed, as it is to Saints, [...] more powerfull then scripture; [...]oth not preiudice infallibilitie. Both [...]ay haue it, and yet one be more [...]owerfull. And this supposed, visit [...]hat both scripture and the Coun­ [...]ell, be infallible; but the power of [Page 162] cripture more; the discourse of S. Athanasius is conuincing. He tha [...] will not submit his iudgment to tha [...] authoritie which is most powerfull▪ doth in vaine pretend he will be ru­led by the lesse; he doth easilie con­temne a Councell, who contemne [...] the Scripture, proposed by the vni­uersall [Page 163] Church; as the Arians did, who contradicted open Scripture, and all Antiquitie.

Neither doth this make any thing against the decision of con­trouersies, by Councells; for, though the waie of Councells be a certaine waie to determine what wee must beleeue, yet may there be another way to finde it out; and that certaine too. And doubtles, he that seeth in scripture that, which he knowes the whole symbolicall Church (that which holds out the booke wherein [...]he reades it,) doth beleeue, is more powerfullie moued to giue assent, then he that heares a Councell on­ [...]ie. And our assent is more proue when the Prophets and Apostles all, propose the same, then when one alone doth auouch it; though one Prophet or Apostle by himselfe be sufficient and infallible.

§. XII.

Vincentius Lirinensis will haue Church-au­thoritie relied vpon in matter of faith, as cer­taine and vndoubted. How a man is to carrie himself, when matter of faith is questioned. [Page 164] The way to finde the Catholike sence. Generall Councels, infallible in their decrees; and those are Hereticks that contradict and oppose them.

SAepe magno studio & summa attentione perquirens à qua­plurimis sanctitate & doctrina praestantibus viris quonam modo possim certa quadam & quasi generali ac regulari vi [...] Catholicae fidei veritatem ab haereticae prauitatis falsitate disc [...] ­nere; huiusmodi semper responsum ab omnibus ferèretuli. Quo [...] siue ego siue quis alius vellet exurgentium hereticorum fra [...] des deprehendere laqueosque vitare & in fide sanus atque inte­ger permanere, duplici modo munire fidem suam Domino adio­uante deberet; Primò scilicet, diuinae legis authoritate: tu [...] deinde Ecclesiae Catholicae traditione. Baro p. 349. ex vincent Lycin c. 1.

VINCENTIVS LIRINENSIS▪ The argument taken from this Father is, that in his golden treatise entitled Aduersus prophanas haereseô [...] nouationes, he hath omitted to spe­cifie generall Councells and their de­crees, and diuers leaues are spent t [...] proue that he did not giue vnto them any place in the direction of our be­leefe. But no paines will serue. H [...] doth more then once or twice men­tion them, and hath testified wha [...] he thought of their authoritie. Two [Page 165] generall Vicent. Ly­rin. c. 1. waies there are to distin­guish the truth from errour in mat­ [...]er of Religion; the one by Scripture, [...]he other by Tradition: but the scri­pture is profound and obscure, whe­ [...]evpon it hath come to passe that di­uers heretikes haue interpreted it [...]iuers waies; so that, to knowe the [...]ight meaning of it, it is necessarie [...]o recurre to tradition; and, (as he [...]aith in the second chapter of his boo­ke) Idem c. 2. vide Disp. li. 5. c 1. & li. 4. c. 8. pag. 405. & pag. 395 fine, that the line of the propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation be di­rected according to the rule of the Eccle­siasticall and Catholike sence. Which Catholik sence, may be found three waies chieflie, according as he con­ceaues it; one is to see if it be held by the symbolicall or vniuersall Church; a second is, to see if it be held by the Fathers, each writing in his owne time; a third, to see whe­ther it be defined in any generall Councell. By these three waies prin­cipallie, a man is directed to the Ca­tholik or true sence of scripture: and all three are not necessarie, but any of the three will serue the tur­ne. V [...]i [...]nt. c. [...]. In the Catholik Church, saith [Page 166] he, wee must haue a great care wee hold that which hath bene beleeued eue­ry where; that which hath been be­leeued euer; that which hath been be­leeued by all, for this is truelie and pro­perlie Catholick as the power of the na­me and the definition doth declare, which truelie doth comprehend all vni­uersallie. And this is donne in fine if we follow vniuersalitie, antiquitie, con­sent. Vniuersalitie wee shall follow thus; if wee confesse that one faith to be true which the whole Church thorough the world doth acknowledg: And anti­quitie thus; if wee doe not in any sort goe back from those sences which it is manifest that our holie Auncestors and Fathers haue celebrated and commen­ded: and Censent likewise, if wee fol­lowe the definitions and decrees of all, or neere all, the priests and masters in Antiquitie. And Quid igi­tur faciet Chri­stianus Catholi­cus, si se aliqua Ecclesiae parti­cula ab vniuer­salis fidei com­munione prae­ciderit? quid vtique, nisi vt pestisero cor­ruptoque mē ­bro sanitatem vniuersi corpo­ris anteponats quod si nouella aliqua cōtagia non iam por­tiunculam tan­tum sed totam pariter Eccle­siam comma­culare conetur? (locum hunc corruperūt Wit­taker & Vitus, haeretici,) tunc item prouide­bit vt antiqui­tati inhaereat; quae prorsus iā non potest vlla nouitatis fraude seduci. Quid si in ipsa vetusta­te duorum aut trium hominū vel certè ciui­tatis vnius aut etiam prouin­ciae alicuius er­ror deprehen­datur? Tunc omnino cura­bit vt paucorū temeritati, vel inscitiae, fi qua sunt vni­uersaliter anti­quitus vniuer­salis Ecclesiae de­creta praeponat. Quid si tale a­liquid emergat vbi nihil huius­modi reperia­tur? Tuuc o­peram dabit vt collatas inter se Maiorū cō ­sulat interro­ge [...]que senten­tias; eorum dū ­taxat qui di­uersis licet tē poribus & locis, in vnius ta­mē Ecclesiae Ca­tholica commu­nione & fide permanentes, magistri proba­biles extiterunt: & quicquid nō vnus aut duo tātum sed om­nes pariter vno eodemque cō ­sen [...], apertè, frequēter, per­seueranter, te­nuisse, scripsis­se, docuisse co­gnouerit, id si­bi quoque in­telligat absque vlla dubitatione credendum. V­inc. Lyrin c. 4. more he hath to the same purpose.

He liued in the yeare 440. and before he wrote this booke, there had been three generall Councells; whose decrees, though not made, the Nicenum anno 325. first of them, much more then a hundred yeeres before him, he [Page 167] [...]umbers amongst the records of an­ [...]iquitie which are to be looked into. And in like manner, the decrees ma­ [...]e 200. 500. 1000. yeares before vs, [...]ake place and order in the records [...]f antiquitie, respectiuelie to our ti­mes: the distance of precedence [...]eing more, then was the distance of any Councell precedent, respe­ctiuelie vnto him.

You are further to obserue, that, [...]o the vniuersalitie of a truth he doth not require, that it be distinctlie beleeued of all that professe Chri­stian religion; some haue professed it who beleeued not the blessed Tri­nitie, others denied the Incarnation; the greatest mysteries were not Ca­tholick in this sense, neither doth [...]he require that a point or veritie which is Catholik, be such that it hath been expreslie and distinctlie beleeued of all Catholiks at all times; the Catholick Epistles in this sence Vide Disp. pag. 431. An excellent lesson for these times. were not all, Catholick: but his meaning is, (as I insinuated before,) that a sence or veritie ap­pertaining to faith, which is beleeued by the Symbolicall, that is by the [Page 168] vniuersall catholike Church, either allwaies, or at any time, (for it can neuer erre in diuine faith;) or, which the Fathers haue vniformelie in their times and ages taught, and professed; or, which hath beene de­fined by all, or neere all the Pastors, (those which are to teach,) in a ge­nerall councell; is to be receaued as a Catholick sense.

Twice, in that little booke, here­peates againe this matter of finding out the Catholik sense by antiquitie consenting, either in Councell, or out of Councell; and, by vniuersali­tie; and in both places the definition of generall Councells, and their au­thoritie comes in. As, in the 38. chap­ter, where giuing direction how to auoid hereticks, who like the Deuil vrge Scriptures against the truth, in this case, saith he, Catholikes shall take greate care that they interprete the diuine canon according to the traditions of the vniuersall Church, and according to the rules of the Catholike doctrine or decree; wherein likewise it is necessarie that they follow the vniuersalitie, anti­quitie, and consent of the Catholick [Page 169] Church. And if at any time a part doth rebell against the whole, noueltie against antiquitie, or the disagreement of one or some fewe erring persons against the consent of all, or at least of farre more Catholikes; let them preferre the inte­gritie of the whole, before the corruption of the part. And in the same whole, the religion of antiquitie before the prophanesse of noueltie: as also in antiquitie it selfe, let them preferre before the rashnes of a verie fewe, primū om­nium genera­lia, si qua sunt, vniuersalis cō ­cilij decreta praeponant; tūc deinde, si id minus est, se­quantur quod proximum est, multorum at­que magnorū consentientes sibi sententias magistrorum. Vincent. Lirin. c 38. first of all if any be, the generall decrees of an oecumenicall Councell: then after, if that be not, let thē followe that which is next, (to wit) the sentences or opinions of many and great masters consenting amonge themsel­ues.

In the next chapter, he tells what Fathers those must be, whose opi­nions wee take; they must be Idem c. 39. or­thodoxe, such as liuing piouslie in the Catholike faith and communion, and remaining constant, haue died in Christ; or happilie bene put to death for him: and those he saith are so to be beleeued, that what soeuer either all, or the greater part, haue esta­blished or confirmed, receauing, holding, [Page 170] or deliuering, with one and the same meaning, manifestlie, oft, constantlie, as it were in a certaine councell of masters agreeing among themselues, the same is to be esteemed certaine and vndoubted. And againe in the Idem c. 40. next, Hos, in Ecclesia Dei diuinitus per tempora & loca dispensatos, quisquis in sensu Ca­tholici dogmatis vnum aliquid in Chri­sto sentientes contempserit, non homi­nem contemnit sed Deum. He that con­temnes these (fathers) diuinelie distri­buted, according to times and places, in the Church of God; agreeing in Christ in the sence of a Catholick point of do­ctrine, he contemneth not man, but God. So greate hee esteemeth this autho­ritie of the fathers and masters, which God hath dispensed, not at one, but in seuerall times; and yet, the generall decrees of an oecumeni­call Councell, with him, haue c. 38. vt su­prà. the precedence; primum omnium generalia, si qua sint, vniuersalis Concilij decreta praeponant; tunc deinde, si id minus est, sequantur quod proximum est, multo­rum at que magnorum consentientes sibi sententias magistrorum.

Againe in the 41. chapter he repea­tes [Page 171] a second time the same matter, of finding out the Catholike sence by antiquitie, consenting, in Coun­cell or out of Councell: where he speakes yet more home. Diximus in ipsa Ecclesiae vetusta [...]e duo quae [...]am vehe­menter studio­seque obseruā ­da, quibus peni­tus inhaerere deberent, qui­cunque haeretici esse nolunt. Pri­mū si qu [...]d an­tiquitus abom­nibus Ecclesiae Catholicae Sa­cerdotibus vni­uersalis Concilij authoritate de­cretum: Deinde si qua noua &c. c. 41. Exēplū ad­hibuimus Sācti Cōcili [...] quod antè trienmum fermè in Asia apud Ephesum celebratum est &c. Vniuersis Sacerdotibus, qui illò ducenti feré conuene­rant &c. omnes verò Catholicos sacerdotes fuis­se &c. c. 42. Wee ha­ue said that in the antiquitie of the Church two things are greatlie and with greate diligence to be obserued; (quibus) wherevnto, all those must adhere steed­fastlie, that will not be hereticks: (why do you start?) first of all, if any thing should be auncientlie defined with the authoritie of an oecumenicall Councell, by all the Priests of the Catholick Church: and next, if any new question should arise wherein that were not found, recourse to be made to the opi­nions or sentences of holie Fathers, those onelie who euerie one in their owne time and place were found to be approued ma­sters, continuing still in the vnitie of communion and faith: and what soeuer they be found to haue held with one and the same meaning and consent, that wi­thout all scruple should be iudged the true and Catholike (doctrine) of the Church. Here besides the faith and profession of the Church symboli­call or vniuersall, be two other ru­les, [Page 172] wherevnto all, that will not be flat heretiks, must of necessitie con­forme themselues; the decrees of oecumenicall Councells, and, the vni­forme consent of Fathers. I leaue you now, to compare your condition, with his opinion. What he deliuers in this matter, is not his doctrine a­lone. c. 1.

That you conceaue him the bet­ter, he presentlie brings, for instance or example, the proceedings of the Councell of Ephesus (held c. 42. three yeares, no more, before he wrote this booke,) wherein Nestorius was condemned; the anathematismes of the Councell you may see when you please. It is worth the noting by the way, for it is your practise too, and indeed, of all hereticks, that Ne­storius, as he relates in the end of the chapter, renounced the autho­ritie of the Church in deciding con­trouersies, affirming c. 43. totam etiam nunc errare, & semper errasse Eccle­siam, that the whole Church euen now, (in the time of the Councell) doth erre, and alwaies hath erred. In the last chapter of all, he brings in the [Page 173] authoritie of the See Apostolike and in fine, concludes his booke, If nei­ther Apostolicall definitions, nor Eccle­siasticall decrees, whereby according to the sacred consent of vniuersalitie and antiquitie, all Heretikes euer, and in fine Pelagius, Caelestius, Nestorius, haue been deseruedlie condemned, be to be viola­ted, it is necessarie verilie that all Ca­tholikes hereafter, which haue a care to shewe themselues lawfull children of the mother-Church, be associated and close ioyned vnto the faith of the holie Fathers, and, so insist, that they die, in it: and that they detest, abhorre, speake against, persecute, the prophane nouel­ties of prophane men.

§. XIII. Exceptions against a text, or two, refu­ted.

THE last Opposition which you make, is against two of the pla­ces of Scripture, which our Deuines bring to confirme the Councels in­fallibilitie. [Page 174] These also, least you con­ceaue there is difficultie, I will con­sider as farre as your Opposition goes, (though otherwise not med­dling with the Question de Iure, which you finde in our Deuines dis­cussed at large,) and then make an end. The one of these places contai­nes our Sauiours promise of the Ho­lie Ghosts assistance, made vnto the Church; The Spirit of Truth when he comes, shall teach you all truth. Ioan. 14. & 16. The other of the places represents vnto vs the interpretation of the forsaid promise, as it was vn­derstood by the Apostles, who re­lying on it, met in Councell and there defined a Controuersie; It hath seemed good to the Holie Ghost, and to vs. Acts 15.

Against the former place, you saie, first that it is meant of the Apostles onlie. This is false: for it is, foreuer; I will aske my father, and he will giue you another comforter, that he remaine with you for euer, the Spirit of truth. And, apud vos manebit, he shall remai­ne with you, Io. 14. the Catholike Church is his mysticall bodie, which [Page 175] cannot subsist without his Spirit; and, for confirmation and illustra­tion of her faith, not onelie in the Apostles time when our Sauiour was gone, but euer since, after they be gonne, she needs assistance of the Spirit. Neither was it his minde to leaue the faithfull without such com­fort, non relinquam vos orphanos, Ioh. 14. I will not leaue you orphans. O father, establish, confirme, sanctifie them, in the truth. I aske not for them onlie, Ioh. 17. (the Apostles) but for the Church, for those which by their word shall beleeue in me. That, by thy prouidence, for my sake, in our Spirit, all be, as it were, one; and agree (to their pro­portion) as wee doe; who doe iud­ge, and approue, still, the same.

But tell me; hath the Spirit left the Church, or is he still in it? if he hath left it, how hath she superna­turall operations? how doth she be­leeue the diuine word? how doth she subsist? as the Gospell saith she shall, notwithstanding all the ende­uours of hell it selfe. Mat. 16. If he doth re­maine in it, it is then true that the promise holds still, euen that, which [Page 176] was made vnto the Church, in the Apostles time, and began first to be fulfilled in them.

The greatest promises in all the Scripture be two; one of God the Fa­ther, to send his sonne to redeeme the world; the other of God the Sonne, to send the holie Ghost, his spirit, to teach and instruct his Church: if you doe not beleeue the later is perfor­med, you will giue vs cause to thin­ke that you would euacuate the former too, and not trust God, at all, in his promise; nor in his couenant neither; (though so farre you trust one another. Ierem. 35. Ezech. 37.) I will giue my lawe in their bowels, and in their hart I will write it, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. My Spirit that is in thee, and my words that I haue put in thy mouth, Isa. 59. shall not depart out of thy mouth, and out of the mouth of thy seed, and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seed saith our Lord, from this present, and foreuer. See the Disp. li. 3.

Secondlie you saie, that it is not to be vnderstood of all the dogmaticall points, or doctrine, by our Sauiour reuealed, and deliuered vnto the [Page 177] Church; but of some points onlie; [...]hose which are expressed in the A­postles Creed; and not necessarilie of all those neither. Here againe you doe manifestlie contradict the text of Scripture; and open the waie to let errour and heresie into the Church. For, if the holie Ghost teach no more, by the promise of our Sa­uiour, then those fewe points; it is impossible for men to knowe the truth touching other reuealed veri­ties; though they be necessarie to be knowne. And the iudge of contro­uersies, the holie Ghost, being put [...]o silence, errour, in all other mat­ters of that kinde, is remedilesse.

For example; if a man denies the Sacrament of Baptisme; this errour were pernicions to the Church; and [...]hould it preuaile in all, (as it might [...]f the holie Ghost taught nothing but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed,) both infants, and others in­mumerable, would be ruined there­by: for, vnles a man be borne againe of water and the holie Ghost, Ioh. 3. he shall [...]ot enter into the kingdome of heauen. The Eucharist is not expressed in the [Page 178] Apostles Creed, yet you saie that it is necessarie to receaue it, and, by the diuine commaund, in both kinds. The commandements and the inter­pretation which our Sauiour gaue of them, be not expressed there; yet the Church hath, them, and the whole Christian lawe, written in her heart by the spirit of the liuing God. Our o­bligations towards superiours, of all sorts, (in conscience, and by diuine precept, to be performed,) and the rules of Christian conuersation, be not expressed there, though the Church may not be ignorāt of them Pastors and Bishops are necessarie and, by God ordained for her dire­ction; and the Prophecies be necessa­rie for confirmation of her faith; and therefore she is to knowe both the one and the other, though they be not expreslie in the Apostles Creed.

I speake of that Creed, because you name it; as also, because the cer­taintie of other Creeds, set out in Councells; or, of the explication made and proposed by the Church is the thing here disputed. I acknow­ledge it, as proceeding from the assi­stance [Page 179] of the holie Ghost, to the Church, in more then is expressed in the Apostles Creed. Hence it is that I beleeue the Nicene, or that of S. A­ [...]hanasius. if you beleeue it too, then [...]ecall your answer; for whilst it stands, there is no remedie for er­rours in these matters, and many more; nor way of assurāce for many things, which it is necessarie for the Church to knowe.

Moreouer it is certaine by the Gospells, that our blessed Sauiour [...]aught many things to the Church, [...]oth before his passion, and after his [...]esurrection, which are not expres­ [...]ed in the Apostles Creede, whereun­ [...]o, you think, only, assistance is ex­ [...]ended. Reade the Gospell of S. [...]ohn all ouer, or of S. Luke, or S. Ma­ [...]hewe; and you shall finde this to be [...]ue. And these things also, the Spi­ [...]it, according to promise, doth sug­gest. I haue yet many things to saie vn­ [...]o you, which you cannot beare nowe; [...]ut, when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, [...]e shall teach you all truth: for he shall [...]ot speake of himselfe; Ioh. 16. but what things soeuer be shall heare, he shall speake. [Page 180] This before his passion; and after it, for fortie daies he appeared to them, speaking of the kingdome of God. Act. Apost. c. 1. Now, that all this, whether written, or not written, otherwise then by the holie Ghost in the minde and heart of the Church, is included within the obiect of the promised assistance, I proue by no lesse authoritie then of our Sauiour Iesus Christ; vpon whose promises, all that acknowledge him to be true God, Ioh. 14. should relie, belee­uing them and him, as most faith­full. He, (the Spirit of truth) shall teach you all things, and suggest vnto you, all whatsoeuer I shall haue said vnto you.

It is also necessarie for the Church to knowe the Scripture, and the sē [...], which without assistāce of the holie Ghost cānot be done, as I could easilie shew were I to treate of that mat­ter: Vide Disputat. li. 3. c. 4. & 5. but forbearing that discourse, [...] demaund Whether it be necessarie for the Church to knowe that o [...] Sauiour did ordaine Baptisme, and Eucharist, and Order? (if perchanc [...] you thinke the institution of Bishop to be Acts 20. deuine;) and, how a man may [Page 181] knowe the meaning of those passages of Scripture which doe mention the­se things; or, that the texts, indeed be, Scripture; if the holie Ghost, doth by promise, teach the Church no more then what is expressed in the Apostles Creed? I demaund al­so, how you come to be certaine that he doth teach that which in the Creed is expressed? or, that he doth teach any at all? if by the Scripture; thē he teacheth more then is expres­sed in the Apostles Creede; for, the Scripture is not expreslie there. And my demaund returnes againe with a greater difficultie then before; If he teach none but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed, how be you certai­ne that the Gospells be diuine Scripture? who taught you that? The same Question I will aske, and you must answer (mark well) of euerie Cha­ [...]ter; and of the meaning of euerie ver­se which you pretend to be against any part of our whole doctrine; or to make for any peece, of your Reli­gion.

Thirdlie, some perchance will obiect, that though he teach the [Page 182] Church all the dogmaticall points, or heauenlie doctrine which our Sa­uiour taught and commended, yet this is not verified of the Bishops and Pastors, but onlie of the symbolicall or vniuersall Church, which may retaine it, though the Bishops and Pastors all should erre. You knowe, out of the begining of this Rele­ction, where this euasion is insinua­ted; and being beaten from your owne hereticall tenet of the whole Church erring, you seeme to make an offer, in the end to repose heere. But, none that beleeues the Scri­pture, can rest in it; First because our Sauiours words are directed to the Apostles and their Successors, who were to teach; and needed as­sistance in it; Ioann. 14. he shall teach you. And so they did vnderstand it, as appeares by their decree whereof I am to speake afterwards. Secondlie the symbolicall or vniuersall Church doth include Pastors and people; and the people are to learne of the Pastors, whose office is to teach; how shall they beleeue vnles they heare? and how shall they heare with out a preacher? [Page 183] Rom. 10. Teach all Nations, was said, Matth. vlt. not to the people, but to the Pa­stors; Ioann. vlt. and S. Peter and his successors in him, were bid to feede the flock of Christ: wherefore it was requisite the Pastors on whom the people, and among them the predestinate, depend for instruction, should be as­sisted in their teaching: especiallie then when they speake all, the sa­me. Thirdlie, our Sauiour ordained Pastors and Doctors in the Church, Ephes. 4. to the end that wee be not wauering and borne about with euerie winde of doctrine, in the circumuention of errour; and if this meanes, which is esta­blished till the worlds end, be fit for this purpose, (as no Christian can thinke otherwise of our Sauiours prouidence, whom he beleeues to be God,) it is assisted so, that it neuer errs in the doctrine of the faith which it deliuers to the world with obliga­tion to beleeue it. Fourthlie, if euer wee are to beleeue that Christ spea­keth and resolueth doubts by the Pa­stors of the Church, according to that, He which heareth you heareth me, Luc. 10. he which contemneth you cōtemneth me; [Page 184] wee must beleeue, that when all, de­liuer one and the same thing, as Gods word or meaning, vnto the world; then, without all doubt, our Sauiour speakes by them: and he who heares or contemnes them, doth heare or contemne Iesus Christ, whose ministers and Embassadors they be. 2. Corint. 5.

Neither doe you satisfie this ar­gument by saying that you will heare them if they speake according to the word of God; Disput. li. 3. c. 1. & 2. for, therein you challenge vnto your selfe, without warrant, that, which you denie to the whole clergie, who in the Apo­stles were bid teach, and had the pro­mise of assistance: and, in the Que­stion, Whether they or you haue the true sence of Gods word, (as of this, This is my body,) you, most arrogantlie, doe make your selfe the iudge. Your selfe I say, without the Spirit; denying in the meane time, and impugning the power of iudging in this case, in and to them, which haue and shewe, the promise of the Spirit. Vt Diodorum ac Theod. non expellerēt PP. aut inuenerunt eos iam mutasse sententiam, aut quod ex­tremum est, admonitos mutate fecerunt. Nam aliter co [...] in Ecclesia Catholica manere potuisse quis sapiens Catho­licus credat? Cum verò tanta quae dicta sunt, ego indoctus & Latinae linguae, de causa apud Graecos habita, post cen­tum annos pro meo captu & facultate, vel intelligere vel explicare potuerim, quanta credendum est illam Sancto­rum Patrum Congregationem in causa penes se & recenti memoria cognoscere potuisse, illo etiam reuelante qui di­xit, Vbi sunt duo vel tres congregati in nomine meo, ibi in me­dio eorum sum? Nam fideliter inuocatus non solum à Sa­cerdotibus, sed ab omni quoque populo suo, cuius fides & expectatio ex illorum Authoritate dependet, dat omnibus congregatis vnum cor & animam vnam, vt nullus eorum suam velit esse sententiam, nisi quae fuerit veritatis. Quo [...]ies ibi doctiores indoctioribus, & plures paucioribus, illo eorum medio cedunt? Q [...]oties etiam per nescientes scienter operatur ipse qui potest omnia facere supra quam petimus, aut in­telligimus; qui promisit quòd nobiscum sit omnibus di [...]bus vsque ad consummationem saeculi? Vtinam sibi nunquam sae­cularis potestas, quod ei creditum non est, in his negotijs vsurparet, quae nunquam faeliciter vsurpauit. Caeterùm congregatis in suo nomine Christus deesse non potest: quia cùm sit omnipotens Veritas, mentiri nullatenus po­test. Facund. Episc. Defens. Chalced. Concilij li 8. c. 7. Et in eandem sententiam plura, li. 12. c. 2. inter alia verò, de sancto Leone dicit, Neque vlterius retractare neque discutere se posse professus est ea, quae semel fuerant Chalcedonensi definita Concilio, velut quae nosset non tam humano quàm diuino Spiritu constituta. This Father, as also S. Aug. when they saie God reueales vnto the Councell, vse the word something largelie, in the sence imported in the promise of Assistance; docebit vos. suggeret vobis. See the Disput. pag 404. See the Disput. l. 3. c. 6.

Fourthly, he that seeth the truth of this, and would yet flie Councells, [Page 184] [...] [Page 185] [...] [Page 184] [...] [Page 185] [...] [Page 186] will imagine perchance, that, al­though the Pastors all dispersed, when they consent, haue the war­rant of the Spirit; yet, not when they be gathered in a Councell. But this imaginatiō argues a weaknes in cōceauing the termes which are spo­ken of; for, in this congregation or Councell, there is the whole tea­ching-power: which teaching power, (as hath been shewed) hath, and by promise, diuine assistance; and is to establish the rest, predestinate and all, in faith and true beleefe.

Fiftlie, you will saie that in gene­rall Councells all the Pastors or Bi­shops be not present; if they were, you would beleeue what they pro­pose; because the whole exteriour teaching-authoritie is there obliging; and they shewe their warrant, Luc. [...]0 he that heareth you heareth me. Would your fellowes doe this, there were but one thing more to be disputed in this matter, that is, Whether it be necessarie to the generalitie of a Coūcell, that all the Pastors and Bishops without exception, be actuallie present in it; the resolution of which Question wee [Page 187] haue in the practice of the Apostles, and of the primitiue Church. so that no further difficultie can be preten­ded, if the truth be reallie our desire, and hereticall obstinacie put aside. See the Disput. li. 4. c. 7. & 8.

Against the later place, which brings with it the Apostles interpre­tation of the promise registred in the former; it is said first that, although that Councell had the assistance of the holie Ghost in making of their decree, so that it was, his also, as their words import; yet others after, haue it not, it was, (you think) a priui­ledge in them, and lasted no longer in the Church, but wilst they liued. This euasion is precluded, both by the words, and the circumstances of the graunt; it was made vnto the Apostles as Pastors, for establishing of the Church, (dedit Pastores, Ephes. 4. vt iam non simus paruuli fluctuantes, & circumferamur &c.) which Church needed it, not onelie in the Apostles time, but afterwards, The Arian, Sa­bellian, Nesto­rian, and other Heresies. as other diffi­culties (whereof some were about the most fundamentall points, in the verie Creed,) did arise: and the diuel hath [Page 188] not yet donne, suggesting heresie and oppugning the doctrine which our Sauiour left vnto the Church; and thereby, impugning Him, and Her; wherefore, still it is necessarie. And accordinglie, the promise was absolute; without limitation of yee­res; or ages. Yea the text it selfe, hath in aeternum, Ioann. 14. Ephes. 4. for euer: and, donec occur­ramus omnes, vntill wee meete all.

Secondlie it is said, that vnto Pa­stors so assembled, the holie Ghost by vertue of the promise, is present assisting to fundamentall points; but no further. Before, you would haue detracted from the graunt and wi­ped out of it, the latitude of time: now you limit it for the matter. If a Lawier should vse your lease so, you would exclaime that he did cor­rupt it. Whē our Sauiour had prayed to his Father that he would esta­blish or Sanctifie his Apostles (and those who by their meanes were to beleeue in him, that is, his Church,) in the truth; he did presentlie, vn­fould what he meant by that truth, and said sermo tuus est veritas, thy word (the word of God) is the truth; [Page 189] and in this, which comprehends not the Apostles Creed onlie, he would haue thē established. This sanctifica­tion is according to S. Cyrill, a parti­cipation of the holy Ghost, ad intelli­gendas rectè Scripturas, & Ecclesiae dogmata, Cyrill. Alex. in Ioan. li. 11. cap. 25. to vnderstand the Scriptures well, and the doctrine of the Church. In a like fullnes doth our Sauiour himselfe expresse the latitude of this assistance, the shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all what soeuer I shall haue said vnto you. Ioann. 14. So did the Apostle vnderstand it also, in saying that Pastors are giuen to the end wee doe not wauer, Ephes. 4. nor be borne about with euery winde of doctrine. Such a giddines, happens in other things also, besides fundamentalls.

The Church likewise beleeues the graunt to be thus vniuersall; to all our Sauiours doctrine: as appea­reth by the matters which she defi­neth in generall Councels; as in that of Trent. And so much you will a­cknowledg of the primitiue Church, if you reflect vpon that which hath beene said out of S. Augustine, in the Donatists case about Baptisme; [Page 190] which controuersie (not being ex­pressed in the Apostles Creed,) was in a Councell, defined; and, in ver­tue of this assistance; by the whole Christian world. Neither doe you fin­de the difficultie, which was resol­ued by the Apostles in their Coun­cell, put into the Creede.

Thirdlie you saie that out of a ge­nerall assistance, such as God gi­ues euerie man towards euerie good worke, infallibilitie cannot be in­ferd; and more you will not graunt. But our Sauiour graunted more; he promised the holie Ghost should teach the Church all truth; Ioh. 14. & 16. and his lessons must not be doubted of; he cannot misse the truth, or teach a lie. The sence which he doth inspi­re, teach, affirme, is certaine; and the falsitie of any one thing (we­re it possible he should teach a falsi­tie,) would infinitelie preiudice his authoritie, in the estimation of his creatures, yea, the whole Scripture would be questioned, if this ground were not firme; [...]. Petr. 1. if that were not cer­taine, which men, inspired by the ho­lie Ghost, and affirming, as from him, or he, in them; might be false.

Fourthlie you saie that if the Coun­cell follow Scripture, it hath assi­stance and is infallible; but not els. This supposeth that the Church without assistance can vnderstand the Scripture, or teach and define matter of faith; whereas our Sa­uiour in the Scripture saith, Ioann. 15. without him wee can doe nothing; and there­fore he hath promised assistance, that wee may knowe his will, and our dutie; and left the holie Ghost in the Church to teach her all truth. The Iewes, and Pagans, and heretikes, looke on Scripture; but they doe not vnderstand it. The Church hath a Master the Holie Ghost, left to teach her; and by his helpe, doth vnderstād. What need a Schoolema­ster, if your child doth by himselfe vnderstand his booke? or will you call it instruction, if he neuer tell him any thing, but what the child himselfe knowes before? you knowe moreouer, that when the Controuersie is about the Scriptu­re, the written word; or, about the Apostles Creed; or generall tradi­tion; assistance is necessarie: and [Page 192] also, for the sence of Scripture, more then is by your definition, fun­damentall. To omitt, that in your answer you allowe the Church no greater securitie from errour, by the promised assistance, then you gra­unt to be in pagans and heretikes without it: for, they dot not erre, if they followe Scripture, and iudge as it is there. So little is the discre­tion of this answer, and so small a benefit, or rather no benefit you cō ­ceaue to be bestowed in that faire promise. Whereas wee, beleeue our Sauiour to be God who neither mocks his Church nor breakes his word: he can, and will, make and bringe to passe, Ezech. 36. that she walke in his precepts. He writes his lawes in her heart; Ierem. 31. what hinders him? and kee­pes his words, Isa. 59. in her mouth. He hath opened a Schoole, and put a Master in the chaire. Docebit saith he, he shall teach; and, if the lessō be forgot, suggeret, Ioan. 14. he shall bringe it to minde againe: he is not to staie till men fin­de it of them selues; he is Master, and shall teach it.

Fiftlie, you saie that you are con­tent [Page 193] exteriour obedience be giuen to generall Councells, but no more. Yet more must be giuen to the holie Ghost, and in Councells He defineth. Visum est Spiritui Sancto & nobis, Act. 15. were the words of the Councell, it seemeth good to the holie ghost and to vs; not to vs onlie, but to him, in himselfe; and in vs, heere assembled, with his assistance (promised in ca­ses of this nature, and wee are cer­taine that he who promised will performe,) to decide a controuersie: our act, is, his act; 2 Cor. 13. to Him it hath seemed good. In S. Paul Christ spake; the Apostles words, 1. Thess. 1. were acknow­ledged to be, and were indeed, the words of God; Luc 10. the holie Ghost speakes in the Church; the definition is his: you must beleeue it; and, Matt. 18. remo­tis dubitationibus to vse S. Augusti­nes words; S. Aug. suprà. there is no more doubt to be made of it.

In the conclusion of your dis­course you repeate againe what you said in the beginning, Alij fatentur opus esse iudi­ce loquente [...]e [...] homine. Vo­lunt tamē pos­se ab eo prouo­cari in foro in [...]erno sea con­scientiae. Si [...] Wittakerus &c. Sed hoc facilè refellitur, tum quia in hac materia gratis confingitur haec distinctio fori: tum etiam quia pax Ecclesiae sita est potissimum in foro interno, scilicet in fide; ergo non licet in eo foro prouocare à Iu­dice Ecclesiae, alioquin nunquam pax esset conscientiae: tum praeterea quia praxis Ecclesiae in Concilio Apostolo­rum, & aliorum generalium Conciliorum planè declarat quod Iudex Ecclesiae habeat potestatem dirimendi lites in foro conscientiae: tum demum quia si quis teneretur obedire iudicio Ecclesiae in foro externo & non in inter­no, teneretur aliquando silentio sepelire veritatem Dei, eamque non confiteri coram hominibus, nempe si Eccle­sia sententiam ferret contra Dei veritatem. Accedit quod potestas Ecclesiae est spiritualis & in animas ipsas, ergo potestas illius iudicandi se extendit etiam ad forum internum. Reuerendiss. Chalc. in Collat. li. 2. c. 28. that wee be­leeuing the Councels to be directed in their Decrees by the Holie Ghost in vertue of our Sauiours promise [Page 194] made vnto the Church, attribute mo­re to them then Antiquitie hath donne. The vanitie of which your pretence sufficientlie appeares by that which hath beene answered to your exceptions in particular. You finde none that denies what wee beleeue. Yea those whom you pro­duce to speake against vs, affirme it, constantlie. And who more Aun­cient in the ranck of Christians, then the Apostles themselues, whose te­stimonie you haue heard in our be­half. You haue beene told also that in Sainct Augustines daies the Ca­tholikes [Page 195] vniuersallie, and amongst them the greatest schollers submitted their iudgments to the iudgment of the Church in Councell: and this too, though the point so determined were neither fundamentall, nor found in Scripture. You shall finde also (as hath beene likewise insinuated by occasion of your discourse) in the Councell of Chalcedon, six hun­dred Fathers together, acknowled­ging diuine assistance to the Nicene, so farre, that the Decrees, they said, could not be retracted without Si ergo Spi­ritus Sāctus cō ­sedit Patribus, vt manifeste consedit & or­dinauit que or­dinata sunt, qui retractat ea Spiritus Sancti cassat gratiam. Sācta Synodus dixit, Omnes haec dicimus. A­nathema qui retractat. Conc. Chalced. Acti. 1. making void the grace of the Holie Ghost. And others accordinglie saie they were S. Leo, E­pist. 53. & 54. vide etiam S. Aug. li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. diuinelie ordained, Si quis fi­dem illam à sācta & magna Synodo opti­mè & diuino afflatu definitā ac expositam, dicere voluerit basim anima­rum nostrarū, fundamentum que inconcus­sum & muni­tum, is vtique probatissime loquitur. Lib. 1. de Trinit a­pud Cyrill. Alexand. Suis au­tē verbis à no­bis scribatur, diuinū & san­ctissimum Sy­nodi illius O­raculum. Ibidē. Vide S. Am­bros li. 1. de Fi­de, ad Gratian. oracles of faith. It sufficeth to make instance in that one, being the first oecumenicall that was celebrated after the Apostles daies; to shewe that it stopped not in them, but was continued after their (the Apostles) time, vnto the Church. And in like manner it was affoorded afterwards to the second, and the third, and fourth; the decrees of which li. 1 Regest. Epist. 24. Quintum quo­que Concilium pariter ve [...]e­ror. Ibidem S. Gregorie, our Apostle, did honour as the Gospels; and so also to the rest; [Page 196] by vertue of one and the same Pro­mise; made absolutelie, to the Church. Vpon which promise that also of the Apostles did relie, as before hath been obserued.

Moreouer the Fathers held, that the definitiōs of oecumenicall Coū ­cells might not be called into Conc. Chalc. acti 1. anathe­ma [...]qui re [...]ra­ctat. De rebus apud Nicaeā, & apud Chal­cedonam defi­nitis, nullū au­demus inire tractatum, tan­quā dubia vel infirma sint, quae tanta per Spiritum sanctū fixit authori­tas. S. Leo epist. 78. vbi plura in eandem sen­tentiam. doubt; that they were rather to loo­se their S. Ambros. epist. 32. S. Hier. contra Lucife­rian. liues then to denie them; that those who did oppugne them, were Nullo mo­do fieri potest vt q [...]i diuinis a [...]dent contra­dicere sacra­mentis aliqua nobis commu­nio [...]e socien­tur S. Epist 78. Pat [...]faciētes in omnibus & probantes non esse omnino in­ter Catholicos computandos, qui definitio­nes venerabilis Synodi Nice­nae, vel sancti Chalcedonēsis Concilij regu­las nō sequun­tur. Ibidem. not Catholikes, but S. August. de Haeres. nu 69. S. Basil. epist. 78. S. Athanas. epist. ad Epict. Vincent. Lyri. c. 41. he­retikes. And the Councels them­selues did Conc Nice. Ephesin. &c. anathematize all, that reiected, or dissented from them. Now by these anathematismes and excommunications; by the deepe cen­sure, and branding with the note of Heresie; by the deniall of the name of Catholike, to such as did stubborne­lie contradict oecumenicall defini­tions: by the knowne custome of the Pastors, in all ages, and cases of greatest difficultie, (when soeuer they could with safetie meete in Councell,) to define sub anathemate, and to oblige all to conformitie without further dispute or doubt; (they being the men whom our Sauiour hath [Page 197] giuen to teach his people and esta­blish thē in the truth:) by the generall obedience of the Symbolicall or vni­uersall Church, in all times, to the Pa­stors, so teaching; ( manifested in their acceptation of such Decrees, and con­formable profession of the faith:) by the esteeme which holie Fathers had of Councells, whereof in Saint Augustine I gaue an instance, in the case of S. Cyprian, and, by the A­postles practice, in regard and con­templation of the promise; together with their reall interpretation of it: the meaning of those words, The Spirit of truth shall teach you all truth; and He gaue Pastors and Doctors, that wee be not wauering or borne about with euerie winde of doctrine; is so discoue­red; and the tradition of assistance and direction, afforded to Councels oecu­menicall, in their decrees of faith, so confirmed; that a weaker sight then yours may discerne it.

You may further call to minde, that the Councels wherein the Con­trouersies betwixt the Protestants and vs are defined, be receaued by the whole Church, and by it vniuer­sallie [Page 198] approued. Wherefore, had any of those you name, told you that an oecumenicall Councell might mistake, and erre; the decrees of faith made in these Councels, as in that of Trent for example, had still beene, according to their iudgment, notwithstanding, to be admitted; because the Vniuersall Church, hath receaued and approued them. And you, opposing them, do oppose, not a Councell onlie, but the Catho­like and Vniuersall Church; and the Spirit in her, the Spirit of truth, re­maining in, and with her, to teach her all truth.

That this is the Catholike Church, and not yours, nor the whole com­panie of such as professe themselues Christians as it includes both the Orthodox and Hereticks, you see proued and defended Disp. of the Church. elswere. If your Spirit be disposed to contra­dict it, bring your Catalogue of men that held your Articles, all: men, purelie Orthodox according to the new straine, without any defect or superstruction; whose tenents intire­lie be The Vniuer­salitie of the Church, and the long Com­munion of the Graecians and o­ther Nations with it, is de­monstrated at large by C. Ba­ronius in his Annals: and briefelie in the Disputation of the Church pag. 145. 146. 147. & 148. By the Church thus Vniuersall, in her flourish­ing time, the Nestorian and Eutychean Heresies, which made against the fundamen­tall articles of Christianitie and the cōmon Creede, were you know, cōdemned: and such as abbetted thē were cut of frō Cōmunion, lawfullie and oecumenicallie in the Coun­cels of Ephesus and Chalcedon. Wherefore in the Catalo­gue which you are to make do not put vnder the titles of Orthodox or Members of the Catholike Communion, any Na­tions or People (howeuer great) approuing and maintai­ning either of these Errours. Such as were the Nestorians, Armenians, Iacobites, Abassins, and Aegyptians or Cophti; as appeares by Photius, Damascen, Euthymius, Nicephorus, Prateolus, Guido, Baronius, Miraeus, Godignus, and others. Neither can you challeng them as yours when they were re-vnited to the Church and See of Rome, as the Grecians, Armenians and others were in the Councell of Florence, ( Acta Conc. Flor. in Decreto Eugen. Aemilius, Platina; Chal­condas, Gordonus. See also Miraus, Not. Episc. li. 1. c. 18.) but you must finde a time when they neither held with vs, nor abbetted either of the foresaid Heresies; but were en­tirelie Protestant or Orthodox in your sence. And the Ca­talogue must represent vnto vs in all Ages some of these, so many as may challeng from all other Communities the title of the Catholike and Vniuersall Church. If you looke vpon the whole aggregation of Christian Churches that euer were in the world before Luther, you shall finde the Societie of beleeuers in Communion with the See of Rome to be without all Controuersie the greatest and most Vniuersall. And, that Arians, Nestorians, Iacobites, Armenians, and others going out of it to subsist by them­selues, neuer could arriue any of them, to that Vniuersa­litie. Where you will finde or feigne your Protestāt mo­re Vniuersall Congregation, or of what kind of men or what fan­toms rather it doth consist, wee shall know when your de­scriptiō of the Spaces Imagi­narie comes out in print. What is to be obserued in the drawing of your Catalo­gue hath beene partlie told you in the Disp. lib. 1. c. 1. 2. 3. & 4. currant there, and iustified by [Page 199] you their children: and this conti­nuallie, euer since the Apostles daies; with Pastors, lawfullie ordained. [Page 200] Proue that yours was, and that ours was not the Church which hath ce­lebrated Councels, condemned He­resies, conuerted Nations, &c. Mea­ne while (and euer, for this taske will be neuer donne,) wee do securelie subscribe to the Decrees of Coun­cels oecumenicall, approued and re­ceaued generallie by that Cōmuni­tie, out of which your Father Lu­ther, went: and do not doubt at all, to imbosome our selues in that Church, which, by Successiōs of Bishops frō the See Apostolike, hath, euen to the acknowled­gment and confession of mankind, obtai­ned the top of Authoritie; Hereticks in vaine barking round about, and con­demned; partlie by the iudgment of the very multitude or common people, par­tlie by the grauitie of Councels, and par­tlie by the maiestie of miracles. To which Church not to giue the prize, it is veri­lie, either extreame impietie, or foole-hardie presumption.

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