¶ Sarum.

IN your second Letters I finde many words to small purpose. It had bene [...] better for you to haue alledged one sufficiēt authority wherby I might haue learned that I loked for.

¶ Cole

IT liketh you thus to say, that your Readers may thinke you touch me very sore, where you discouer a great vntrueth in your wrytynge. [...] my purpose was to be taught, & to this mark onely I shot. You for lack of good matter ans­ [...]. I speak not to the purpose, not to your pur pose, but to mine. How oftentimes must I [...] you, I come not to teach but to learn.

The Reply of the Bishop of Sarum.

COntrarie to y ^• Rueles of Rhe­torik, I sie you begin to [...] [Page 37] and to enflame all your affections euen at the first. Sobernes were much fitter for a doctor. But your heats be such, y ^t your frēdes haue shewed me you must be born w ^tal.

I neither discouer, nor couer a­ny vntrueth in my writing, but as you know, only vtter y ^• very trueth For at Paules Crosse I required you, or any of you, to shewe the groundes of your religion, if you had any, that by indifferent confe­rence the trueth the better might appear. And this had bene to your purpose, if ye had ment plainly, & to mine to. But you run away in the myst, and [...] the net, lest hap­pely ye should be takē, and so pur­posly go about to blear your rea­ders [...], & to couer the truth and hauing in very died nothing to al­ledg for your self, yet ye make a [Page] countenaunce as though ye lackt nothig. And so I graūt you folow your purpose, and not mine.

Where you say, ye cum only to learn, and not to quarell, he must niedes be your very frende y ^• will beleue you. Nowbeit the pretence of a learner may kepe your credite for a while, & saue you frō shewig what ye can say. And therfore I read you, vse it still. But by your scoffes & scornes it may pppeare, you cum to controlle, soner thē to learn. God send vs both humble­ [...]esse of hart, that we may content our selues to be taught.

¶ Sarum.

IN my Sermons aswell at Powles Crosse, as els where, I required you to bryng forth of your parte, eyther sum Scripture, or sum olde Doctour, or sum [...]ncient generall Councell, or els sum [...]llowed example of y ^• [...] church. For these are good groundes to builde [Page 8] vpon. And I would haue merueiled that you broght forth nothing al this while, sauing that I knewe you had nothing to bring.

¶ Cole.

YOu require that is daungerous for me, [...] you knowe.

Thereply. Sarum.

[...] it be daungerous to you bi­cause you stande bounde, why do you not put it ouer to sum other of your syd that is not bo [...]d. This shadow wil serue well before your [...]endes, that will wink when you bid them, and see no more thē you wil haue them see. But forasmuch as ye haue vsed this excuse so oftē, and so few wise men wil beleue it. I wold think it good that now ye wold deuise sum other.

¶ Sarum.

BUt now forasmuch as ye seke shifts, and will not cum to answere, I ac­cōpt him vnwise that knoweth not your meaning.

¶ Cole.

WEll rayled, you shal finde that we haue more then all you shal be able to answer when time shall require.

The Reply. Sarum.

THis answer notwithstāding it is bitter, yet bicause it is vntrue, and beareth more smoke thē flame, it moueth me the lesse. Here I misse in you sum part of your courtesie. These maters would be tried by reasonig, better then by scoldyng. By likelihod sum other mā had moued your cholar, for my words be as far from ray­ling, as yours are from modestie.

Where you write that you haue more thē all we shalbe able to an­swere, if euery crake were a good [Page 39] substātial argument, I were cōfu ted. But notw ^tstandinge these ter­rible threates, yet in cōclusion, as your custom is, ye bring nothing.

The arguments that you say we shall neuer be able to answere, are sweard & fyre, suche as of late dayes ye vsed so plentiously for lacke of others. And yet as strong & as forcible as they were (God be thanked) they haue ben fully an­swered to the great & vnspeakable comfort of goddes people, and to your shame & confusion for euer.

As touching the olde doctours and Councelles, I wold ye had a terme assigned you, ad exhibendū. In the meane season for lacke of other witnes, ye maye write teste [...], as Princes doo.

Sarum.

[Page]YE aske me why ye should be counted obstinate. Doubtles I for my parte haue a better opinion of you, and trust you are not so. But if a man withstand and open trueth, hauing nothing wher­with to defend him self, I remit him to your own iudgement, whether he maye be counted obstinate, or no.

¶ Cole.

THese wordes glittereth Golde like, and dis­close in you no will to [...] my [...], I [...] for lack of [...].

The reply. Sarum.

IT pleaseth you to make yourself mery with these words. I alled­ged vnto you s. Augnstin, S. Am­brose, S. Basill, S. Chrisostome, S, Nierome, Gelasius, Theophi­lus, and S. Gregorie. Therfore it is vntrue that ye saye. I had no wil to satisfy your demaūd. Now bringe you but one of all these, or any other of your syd in y ^• matters that lie now betwene vs, to satisfy [Page 40] my demaūd, and as I haue said, you shal haue the victory.

You say we lack stufe to proue out pourpose. O woulde to God your stufe and ours might be laid together, thē should it sone appear howe true it is that ye say, & how faithfully ye haue vsed the people of God.

¶ Sarum.

YOu put me well in remembrance of mine office, that forasmuch as I am a Bishop should be [...], that is redy to yelde an accōpt of such things as I teach, I thank God so I do, & haue done to my power, both priuately and openly. But if this be my deutie, and required at my hands, what priueledge haue you, that you only may not allowe out one sentence to the confirmation of your doctrine?

¶ Cole.

YOu say much and proue nothing. Your trueth is so open, that no man can sie it, but your own side. I haue no priuilege, when reason and Law [Page] shall will me to do it, you shall finde it. Now I stande bound to the contrarie as you know.

The reply. Sarum.

I Speake not to muche as your selfe can witnesse. Nowe muche I proue shall reste vpon the wisedome and iudgement of the reader, bothe the trueth of oure parte, and the vntruth of your parte is so open, that now God be thanked the whole world is able to see it, onlesse there be sum such as hath eyes and will not see. Yet Iustificata est sapientia Dei, à filiis suis.

Ye saye you will speake when reason and lawe shall will you to doo it. Of the lawe I will say no­thing, but only this by the waye, bicause you are a doctour of law, what Law haue you that [...] driue [Page 41] a man to prone a negatiue: or if ye haue no Lawe▪ what reason haue you that I should do it? But me thinketh both reason and humani­tie wold ye should haue answered me sumwhat specially being so of­ten and so openly required. At the least you should haue alledged Au gustine, Ambrose, Chrisostome, Nierome, as ye did sumtimes al­ledge the decrie of the Councell of Ephesus, the first, for the Commu­nion vnder one kinde, whiche de­crie neuer was yet found, nor ne­uer wilbe. Nowebeit bicause you speake of reason, wheras a man hath nothing to say, it is good rea­son he kepe silence, as you do.

¶ Sarum.

YOu woulde haue men thinke I [...] answeringe bicause I am a Bishop. [Page] This in Sophistry is called Paralogis­mus, a non causa vt causa. I alledged the place and audience where I spake, and not only mine office. For I thought it might appeare sum want or discretion, to call that doctrine into questriō, which I knew was groūded vpon gods word and authorized & set forth by y ^• Quenes Maiesty, & by y ^• assēte of y ^• whole realm.

¶ Cole.

I Must niedes think sum parte of your writing made by sum smatterer: as here, for a shewe of skill in Logik, brought in a place of Logik out of al purpose. How frame you this to your purpose, [...]nd you shall finde me therin true, as happely I shall make you to sie, if your driue me to it. Your [...] against transubstantiation is yet to be proued, and no man boūd to beleue it. And being as true as ye would haue it seme, yet may you [...]nforme the weak and willing to learn.

The Reply. Sarum.

YE do me to much wrong, that will not allow me thus much Logik of mine own. But it was euer your grace, to beare the people in hand that all we are al­together vnlearned, and knowe [Page 42] nothing. Whiche thing if it were [...]rew, it wer y ^• more to your shame, thus openlye to be confounded through the whole world, by men of so smal learning. Howbeit thus it pleased you to talk, for want of better reason.

Ye cal me a smatterer in Logik, as if your self wer as perfit in Lo­gik as Aristotle. And yet I remē ­ber well I vnderstode as muche logik as this cumeth to, and sum deale more, for twenty yeres ago, ywis when you, by your own re­porte, were but a simple smatterer in diuinitie. Neither did I bringe it in for a she we of skil, as you say, but to declare your ouersight, & lacke of skil, which appeareth now not only in diuinitie, but also in lo­gik. For where you say I brought it in out of all purpose, me thinke [Page] you haue forgotten sum parte of your olde rueles, and know not what Paralogismus à non causa, vt causa▪ meaneth. Which is when so euer in reasoninge the very true cause is suppressed, and an other cause of purpose set in place. For example I say, I confer with you vnder protestation, lest I shoulde seme to call y ^t doetrine into doubt, which I knew to be established by gods word, & by sufficient autho­rity thronghout this [...]ealm. And you would haue it taken that I do it, bicause I am a Bishop. Which indede is of your syd a sophistica­tion, à non causa, vt causa, So like­wise I say, you alledg no dectors, nor scriptures, nor generall Coū ­celles, as true it is, bicause ye haue none to alledge. But you woulde make men beleue ye dare not al­ledg [Page 43] thē, bicause ye stand bound in Recognisaunce to y ^• cōtrary. And this of your syd is another Sophi stication, à non causa, vt causa.

Where you saye, ye will shewe me that I brought this in out o [...] all purpose, it had bene more for your credit, if ye would haue done it out ofhand. But forasmuche as y ^e fairest shew of your learning hā ­geth on the futurtens, & standeth only vpō promis. I trust you will bring forth your olde Doctours, and Councels, and perfurme this bothe together: whiche wilbe ye know when.

The trueth of our Doctrine a­gainst trāsubstantiation was pro­ued sufficiently, and well allowed, before your doctrine with tran­substantiation was euer heard of. For you are not able to shewe me, [Page] not so much as the very name of transubstantiation in any kind of wryter, new or old, before the late Councell of Laterane: whiche as you know, was holden in Rome. M. CCxv. yeres after Christ. So longe the Church of God, and the Catholik faith was able to stande without your transubstantiation. Whiche, if it were so true, as ye would haue men think it, I mer­neile, it coulde neuer be knowen before.

¶ Sarum.

BUt as touching my callinge, I am not only readie to answer anye man in any thing that, I professe, but also vpon snfficiēt allegatiō, as I haue pro­ [...]sed, very wel cōtēt to yelde vnto you.

¶ Cole.

THat you are required that you refuse, & make large offer to no purpose.

The reply. Sarum▪

[Page 44]THat you required me I haue partly perfourmed, euen in my last Letters, as you your self do know right well, and that not altogether from the purpose, as it shall appeare. Brig you forth asmuch of your syd, and I wil say ye cumme wel to the purpose.

¶ Sarum

BUt I besech you what reason of your faith in these matters, gaue you sū ­time, when you wer in place? Scrip­tures, Doctors, Coūcelles, ye had none, as now appeareth by your silence.

¶ Cole.

VVE brought more then ye were able to an­swer, all were it not Scriptures, nor doc­tours, nor councelles.

The Reply. Sarum.

IN steed of scriptures, Doctors, and Councelles, ye brought such extremity, as the world hath not sene the lyke, and as you are now [Page] loth to heare of. And yet it pleased god that the same should be an­wered sufficiently, with patience & sufferance, But here am I glad ye confesse one trueth by the waye, that ye brought in all that tyme, nether scriptures, nor Doctours, nor generall Councelles of your syde, and yet I trow ye were frie from Recognisāce. This I beleue passed you vnwares and not of purpose▪ As your Proloqu [...]tor in the disputation at Oxforde, gaue out one trueth by chaunce vndad. uisedly, as he gaue knowledge to the audience in the diuinitie schole of what matters they would dis­pute. For thus he said, and that in your owne hearinge, Vir [...] [...], conuenimus hûc holdiè disputaturi contra horribilem illam Haeresim, de veritate Corporis, & Sanguinis [Page 45] Christi, in Eucharistia. Brethern, saide he, we cume hither this daye to dispute against that horrible Heresie, of the veritie of Christes body and blud in the Sacrament. God wolde haue him vtter sume trueth then, as you doo nowe, bi­cause he was Pontifex illius anni. But forasmuch as you confesse ye brought nether Scriptures, nor Doctours, nor Councelles, Ire­mit the matter to your own reader to consider what ye brought.

Sarum.

THerfore the ground of your persua­sion must then needes be, Nos habe­mus legem, & secūdum legem. &c. Yo [...] know what foloweth, that is, we haue a law, & accordiug to our law he must die.

¶ Cole

This argument I would faine see proued.

The Reply. Sarum.

[Page]YOur whole practise, and the order of your doiuges for sixe yeres together hath proued it suf­ficiently. And besides y ^t, a Bishop of yours, euen in that tune, sittyng in iudgement vpon a pore man in a case of Religiō, and hearing him alledge the Scripturs, and other authorities for him self, rounded a geutlemā in the ear that sate next to him, with these wordes. Naye if we stryue with them in Scrip­tures & reasoning, we shall neuer haue done. We must proced agaīst them with the Law.

¶ Sarum.

FOr as truly as God, is God, if ye would haue vouchsaued to folow ey­ther the Scriptures, or the [...]ncient Doctours, or the Co [...]celles, ye wolde neuer haue restored again eyther y ^• sup­premacie of Rome after it was once a­bolished, or the priuate Masse, or y ^• com­munion [Page 46] vnder one kynd, &c.

¶ Cole.

[...] and bold asse [...]eration, maketh no pro [...] in the Law.

The Reply, Sarum.

TRue and ernest asseueration maketh a proufe sufficient in y ^• law, as lōg as [...]e haue nothinge to the contrarie, as in ded ye haue not, nor neuer shall haue. But w ^t ­out question your terrible garde of Billes & halbardes, your grin­ning and skoffing, with other like your demeanour, as ye vsed in the disputations at Oxforde against the mar [...]irs, and faithfull witnes­ses of goddes trueth, and as now your crakes of many things, and bringing forth of nothing, I beleue to any wise man maketh but smal proufe in diuinity. But if ye wold haue had any wise man myslik my asseueratiō, ye should haue shewed [Page] by what scriptures, by what Coū ­celles, or by what doctours, ye re­stored these thinges again.

¶ Sarum.

IT greaueth you that I should rest vpō the negatiue, and so put you to your proufes. Wherin notwithstandinge ye alledg against methe custom of y ^• scholes yet you know Christ vsed the same kind of reasoning in his schole. As when he said to the Pharisies, Hoc Abraham non fecit. This thing, Abrahā neuer did. And again when be answered them in y ^e case of diuorse, A principio non fuit sic, it was not so from the beginning, he stode only vpon the negatiue.

¶ Cole.

HEreis againe one place that I reken you put not in your selfe. For it maketh quyt against you. For Christ proued the Pharisies were not Abrahams Children, and that a man maye not put away his [...] for euery cause.

The Reply. Sarum.

I See you would faine put me out of credit, as thogh I wer not able to answere your let­ters [Page 47] without conference. But this I reken you do for a ioly policie, that while your reader is lokig v­pon me, he should forget the whole matter that we talk of. Y [...] y ^• erā ­ples that I alledge be against my self, then are you the more behol­ding to me. For they can not light­ly make against me in this case, but they must nedes make for you. Yet I praye you shewe me by all your Logik, howe holdeth this ar­gument of yours.

ME thiketh here is a very shorte. Sillogismus. I merueil where you lefte your Medius terminus. [Page] You should haue squared it bet­ter, before it had past your hands. As for the allegation, it maketh e­uidently for me. For as I saide, Christ stode then vpon the nega­tiue against the Pharisies, as we do now against you.

¶ Sarum.

EUen so when Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople had taken vpō him to be called vniuersall Bishop of the whole Church, which title afterwarde the bishop of Rome began to vsurpe to him self, & for the maintenāce of y ^• same, hath oftentimes disquieted and shaken the whole world, but when the Bishop of Constatinople first began to vse this title, Gregorie beinge then Bishop of Rome, confounded him only with the negatiue. Nemo, said he, decessorum meorū hoc profano vocabulo vti voluit. None of my predecessours (which had continued from Peter downward, for the space of sir hundred yeres after Christ) wolde e­uer vse this vnchristianlik & lewd name. [Page 48] Lib. 4. Epist. 80. And againe. Epist. 9 [...] ▪ Sancti ante [...]eg [...]m, Sancti in [...]ege, Sancti sub gratia, omnes perficientes corpus domini in membris sunt constituti. The holy men be­fore the Law, the holy men vnder the law, the holy men vnder the grace of y ^• Gospell, altogether makīg vp one body of the Lord, are placed amongst his mē ­bers. But none of them wold euer suffer him selfe to be called vniuersall. I haue chosen me specially these examples, bi­cause they seme to serue me to double purpose Thus Gregorie reasoned then, as we do now, only vpon the negat [...]: and if the Bishop of Constātinople had ben able to proue but one affirmatiue, y ^• any Bishop of Rome afore time had v­sed that title, or that euer any mā other before the law, or vnder the law, or vn­der the Gospel had suffred him self to be called vniuersall bishop, then had Gre­gorie bene confounded.

¶ Cole.

TWo purposes against your self. Gregorie pro­ued D. Cole cōfesseth y ^• no Bi­shoppe of Rome be­ [...]ore Gre­ [...]ory, that [...]s, for the [...]pace of [...] ▪ hun­dred yers [...]fter Christ. wolde e­uer take vpon him the title of vniuersal Bishop. a negatiue bicause none of his forefathers euer vsed that title. As one might say, that you preach is naught bicause mē in times past taught not so. This parre of Gregory serueth no whit to [Page] dispro [...] the So [...]eraintie, as Dr [...]do [...] [...] you, [...] you vouchesaue to read him.

The reply. Sarum.

YOu saye I bringe Gregorie against my selfe. God be thā ­ked you are able to bring ne­ [...]her Gregorye, nor any els, that in anye of these matters may but seeme to make with you. But if Gregorye stande vpon the nega­tiue, as I doo, and as you your selfe confesse, he maketh sufficiēt­ly to my purpose. Nowe iudg you whether these proufes be nega­tiues, or no.

Nemo decessorū meorū hoc pro­ [...]ano vocabulo vti voluit. Or this. Nemo se vniuersalem dici voluit.

And say not I alledg matter a­gainst my self, onl [...]s ye haue wher with to disproue it better.

You answer farther, y ^t one might [Page 49] say y ^• lyke against vs, y ^e we preach this day is naught, bicause mē in times past taught not so. Like as Gregorye found fault with Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople, for y ^t he [...]titled him self an vniuersall Bishop of y ^• whole Church, where as none of his preder [...]ssours durst euer-take that name vpon him. In dede this aunswer mighte haue sum shew, if mē in times past had neuer taught so, as we teachnow. But I doubt not but herein your owne learning & conscience crieth out against you. For you knowe that the matters that lie in que­stiō betwene vs, haue ben taught, as we now teache them, bothe by Christe him selfe, and by his Apo­stles, and by the olde Doctours, and by the auneient generall co [...] ­celles: and that you, hauing no [...] [Page] of these or lyke anthorities, haue set vp a Religion of your own, & built it only vpon your self. Ther­fore I may iustly and truely con­clude, y ^• you now teach and of lōg time haue taught the people, tou­ching the Masie, y ^• Supremacie, the Commē prayer. &c. is naught: for neither Christ, nor his Apo­stles, nor the olde Doctours, Ter­tullian, Ciprian, S. Hierom, S. Augustin, S. Ambrose, S. Chri­ [...]om, &c. euer taught the people [...] as you haue taught them.

You say this place serueth me nothing against the supremacie, I marueil muche you say not, it ferueth you to proue the Supre­macie. Gregory saith no Bishop of Rome vntill [...] time, which was vi. r; yeres after: Christ, wold euer be called the vuiuerial Bishop.

[Page 50]He saieth, that Leo his predeces­sour re [...]used y ^t name, notwithstan­ding it were offred vnto him in y ^• generall Councell of Chalcedon.

He saith, it is a proud, & a pro­phane title, and a name meere for Antichrist.

He saith, who so euer will take y ^• name vpon him, is Antichristes forerunner.

He saieth to consent to suche a name is the denyall of y ^• faith. And yet saye you, he speketh not one word against the Supremacie.

Here would I [...] be answe­red one thinge by the waye, if no Bishop of Rome would euer take vpon him to be called the vniuer­sall Bishop, or head of the whole Church, for the space of vi. c. yeres after Christ, where then was the head of the vniuersall Church all [Page] that while? Or howe could it then continewe without a head, more then now? For nowe you say it is vnpossible. Or if the Church had no vniuersall head in the earth for so lōg a time after Christ, why do you now fournish out the Bishop of Romes authoritie in y ^• hearing of y ^• vnlearned, with such a glorye & face of antiquitie? As if the Bi­shop of Rome had euer bene na­med the head of the Church, sence the tyme that Peter came first to Rome. But bicause your self were not able to auoid the force of Gre­gories words, you did wel to [...] me oner to Doctour Dr [...]do.

¶ Sarum.

BUt as thouching the custome of the Scholes, I trust ye haue not yet for gotten, that Aristotle geueth order to the opponent in many cases to require an instant of the respondent, ap [Page 51] I do now at your handes. And what is that els, but in denial to defend the ne­tiue? and to driue y ^• aduersary to [...] the affirmatiue?

¶ Cole.

If you read again the place in Aristotles [...], you shall see there the better to vnder­stand it. He speaheth it, wher men dispute Di [...] ­etice, in such [...] [...] we do not. And therfore it serueth not your purpose. But I tel you yet [...] [...], I cum not to disputo, but to learn.

The Reply. Sarum.

I Neuer thought it had bene so high a misterie to vnderstand y ^• nature of all Instāt. Childrē were wōt to haue it in their cōmon dis­putatiōs in y ^• paruise Scholes in Oxford yf it serue only for them y ^• dispute dialecticè, & ye (as ye pre­tend) be are the person onely of a lerner & cum not to dispute, why thē did ye alledge against me the custome of the Scholes, & the dis­putation o [...] maisters of art in the vniuersities? ye knowe they vse [Page] there to [...] [...] dialecticè, & none otherwise. And that I spake herein, I spake onely vpon occa­sion of your own wordes. Howe shall I thinke ye remember your Aristotle, if ye so [...] [...] your own letters?

¶ Sarum.

BUt that ye wil not do, and ye knowe why, [...] ye [...] [...]. But [...] ye r [...]quire to se our groundes. And what better ground can we haue on our side, then that Doctour [...] [...] man on the other side, can [...] no ground to stand against [...]?

¶ Cole.

RIdetur, chorda qui semper aberrat eadē. Doctor Col [...] proue it, whē it [...] to his turn.

Thereply. Sarum.

SEing for lacke of Doctoures ye answere me with Poetes, it shall do well to answere you [Page 52] again with the same. Decies repe­ [...] placebunt. And yet when ye come so often with the pretence of desire to be taught, and of your re­ [...], if I liste to [...] as ye do, why may not I as wel say to you, Ridetur chorda qui semper aberrat eadem? As for the prouing herof, ye do wel to take a day. In the mean season geue others leaue to think the trueth.

¶ Sarum.

HE that wil make any Inno [...]arion say ye, must geue a reason of hys [...]. O master doctor, this rea­son [...] most against your selfe, for ye haue misliked and put away the most part of the order of y ^• Primitiue church, and yet ye neuer gaue good reason of your doinges.

¶ Cole.

IN the end of my [...] ye [...] [...] mine [...] [...] [...] [...] ye [...] [...]. [...] [...] [...].

The reply. Sarum.

ANd there shall you fynde the Reply.

¶ Sarum.

YE say ye are in possession. No, ye were sometime, ye are not nowe and when ye were ye had no right title or good euidence to claime by. No more then they which sometime sate in Moses chaire, or they y ^t saide. Nos sumus [...] Abrahami, we are the children of A­braham, & therby claimed their posses­sion. Therfore ye were possessores [...] [...], and for that cause ye ar now [...], and orderly remoued.

¶ Cole.

VVHen ye meddle with [...], ye shewe [...]. I am [...] in possession of all that euer I taught, and if you put me out of possession by [...]. I ought to be restored. Had not the [...] [...] the olde law̄ good title to sit in Moses chaire? What ye forget your self, yes perbie. The [...] [...]ccompted no man, maloe fidei possessorem, after that he hath continued in possession an [...] ­ored yeres. But I pardon you for mistaking [...] [...], it is not your [...].

The Reply. Sarum.

[Page 53]I Haue not so litle skil in y ^e law but I vnderstand what are malae fi. dei possessores. And as now (gods name be praised) it is wel knowen y ^t ye haue been they, ye are put out of possessiō not by violence of mā, but by y ^e very force of gods trueth, which so deuoureth & consumeth [...] error & falshed, as Moyses [...] deuoured & swalowed vp the fained serpēts of y ^t Sorcerers. If ye claime to be restored be not agreued to shew your euidence.

Where ye say the Bishops and Priests y ^t wer in Christs time had good title to sit in Moyses chaire. I graunt you they had euen as good title, as ye had to sit and beat rule in the Church of Christ. And therfore your example misliketh me neuer a whyte. [...] ye knowe Christ called them Fures & latro­nes, theues and robers: and saide [Page] vnto them, Vos ex patre diabolo estis, ye are y ^• children of the deuil.

Ye say the law accompteth no man possessorem malae fidei. y ^t hath continued in possession one hun­dred yeares. Which thing notw ^t ­standing I can be content to gaūt you to be true in the ciuile law, yet is it not true in the law of God, & that, as ye know is proued by di­uers authorities euē in your own decrees. Dist. 8. There is alleged s. Augustin, whose words are these.

Veritate manifestata, cedat con­suetudo veritati. Nemo cousuetu­dinem rationi, & veritati praeponat: quia consuetudinem ratio & veri­tas semper excludit. After y ^• trueth is once found out, let custom geue place vnto the truth. Let no man set custom before truth and reasō, for reason and trueth euermore [Page 54] put custom to silence.

Likewise S. Gregory, and his wordes are these.

Si consuetudinem opponas, ad­ [...]uertendum est, quod Dominꝰ dicit, Ego sum via, veritas, & vita: non dicit, Ego sum [...]. Et certè quaelibet consuetudo quantumuis vetusta, quantumuis vulgata, veri­tati omnino est postponenda. Yf ye lay custō for your selfe, ye must re­member that Christ faith. I am the way the trueth, and the lyfe: he saith not I am custó: And doubt­les any custom, be it neuer so aun­cient, neuer so commen, yet muste it nedes yelde to the trueth.

Likewise. S. Ciprian, whose wordes be these.

Si solus Christus audiendus est, [...]on debemus attēdere, quid aliquis ante nos faciēdum putarit, sed quid, [Page] qui ante omnes est, Christus prior fecerit. Neque enim hominis con­suetudinem sequi debemus, sed ve­ritatem Dei, cum per Esaiam Pro­phetam Deu▪ loquatur, & dicat, sine causa colunt me docentes manda [...]a, & doctrinas hominum.

If onely Christ must be herd, we may not wey what anye man hath thoght good to do, that hath been before vs, but what Christ [...]ath first done y ^• is before all men. For we may not folowe the cu­stomes of man, but the trueth of God: specially for that God sayeth by the Prophet Esay: They wor­ship me in vain teaching the com­maundementes and doctrines of men. Thus ye see, euen by youre own decrees, that custom against the trueth is a very simple groūde to build vpon.

And like as ye vse to say. Nul­lum [Page 55] tempus praescribit Regi, Som thynketh, of good right▪ cye ought as well to saye, Nullum tempus praescribit Deo. Otherwise Anti­christ shall cum, and sit in posses­sion of the holy place, and beare himself as if he were God, & that, God knoweth, howe many hun­dred yeres together. And yet at the last he shalbe but. Antichrist, sit he neuer so high. For prescrip­tion of an hundred yeares, can not make the falshode be to the trueth nor can any prescription be auayl­able in your own lawe, onlesse it haue bonum titulum: and that in Religion must nedes be the word of God. Which word, forasmuche as ye haue not to alledge (as ye your selfe knowe, no man better) all the face of your prescripcion is but vayne. And therfore ye were [Page] as I said, possessores màlae fidei. And ye haue a rule of your lawe, possessor malae fidei, nulla temporis longinquitate praescribit. And therfore Christ in the case of diuorse rested not vpon the custō that was thē receiued, but appea­led vnto the first institutiō of ma­riage and folde the Pharisies thē, as we nowe tell you, A principio non fuit sic. It was not so at the beginning.

Wheras ye say I mistake your law, I graunt it is possible I may so do, as well as you. Nowbe it, I am we [...]assured in this place I mi­stake it not. I would to God you being a doctour of the law, did no worse mistake the Scriptures.

¶ Sarum.

NOw if ye thinke ye haue wronge, shew your euidence out of y ^• Scrip­tures, the Doctours, or Councels, [Page 56] that [...] maye haue youre right again [...] and so reenter. I require you to no gret paines, one good sentence shalbe [...] ­ent. Ye would haue your priuate masse­the, Byshoppe of Romes [...], the commen pra [...]ers in an vnknowen tongue, and for defence of the [...], ye haue made no small a do, me thinketh it were reason ye should bring sum autho­ritie besides your own: to auouch the same withal. Ye haue made the unlear­ned people beleue that ye haue all the doctors, al the counsels, and. rd. [...]. yeres of your syde. For your credites sake, let not al these great ba [...]tes cum to noght.

¶ Cole.

IEnter no suit against you, and it were [...] [...] shew my euidence vntill it may [...], and take place. I cr [...]ue only to be [...], which I can not obtaine, when I cōmence law against you, then this speach may serue you to sum pur­pose.

The Reply. Sarum.

IF you will not prosequute your suite, it is reason ye be cast in a non suit. But ye do best to make [Page] a delay, for ye know ye haue to do [...] thē that haue sene your euidēce

Ye saye ye kepe your proufes vntil some better tym, when they may serue, and take place. When Pompei, a noble gentilman of Rome, was marching forth to fight in y ^t field against his enemy Iulius Cesar, and [...]ato an olde graue Senatour, one of the same partie, had shewed him he w [...]ted men, tushe quoth he, I shall haue men inough, for as sone as I shal but stamp the grounde with my force, ye shal se spring up a swarm of Souldiers. Afterward whē the field was sought & Pompei discō ­fited, and began to flie with much dishonour, O sir said Cato, where is now your promisse, why stamp ye not the ground, when shall we se your swarm of souldiers? euen [Page 57] somay I say to you, notwithstan­ding your great vauntes that ye haue made, ye se nowe ye are dis­comfeited, ye se the field is al most lost, where are now your crakes of doctours, and councels? Why stampe ye not your bokes? why cum ye not forth w ^t your euidence? Now ye stand in nede of it, nowe it will serue and take place, if ye haue any. But ye learned this pol­licy of your Tully, Scitum est, saith he, causā cōiicere in tēpus, cum ad­ferre plura, cum velis, non queas, when ye haue no more to say, it is wisedom to lay the faut in time.

Sarum.

WHere ye say ye are in place of a learner, and gladly cum to be taught, ye must pardō me to saye the trueth, I taken your very frendes, in this point, wyll hardely beleue you. For if ye werde [...] ­rous [Page] to learne, as ye would seme to be, ye would cum to the church, ye woulde resort to the lessons, ye would abyde to hear the Sermōs, for these are y ^q scholes if a man list to learne. It is a token the scholer setteth little by his [...], y ^t will [...] be brought to [...].

¶ Cole.

VVHy I cum not to your Sermons? thys question is captious: and yet ye are [...] discharged why [...] should not [...] me. As men chouse their wiues, so chouse they theyr teachers. S. Augustines and S. [...], Sermons [...] more to teach, then to conuince.

The Reply Sarum.

I Meant not to be captious, but onely to put you in remēbraunce that your pretence of learninge is but femed, & that you are not in dede so willing to be taught as ye would seme to be Whensoeuer ye shall shew me by your lawe that a man may be required to proue a [...] negatiue, I wilbe content to confer with you, and to shewe you [Page 58] the reast of my prou [...]es.

Ye say ye chouse your teacher as men do theyr wiues, many mē are led by folly & phansy in chou­sing theyr wyues. I woulde your luk should be better in chousinge your teacher. But S. Paule pro­phesied in his time, y ^t there should come scholars with titling eares & chouse them selues teachers ac­cording to their owne appetites y ^t shoulde turne away theyr eares from the trueth, and geue them­selfe to the hearing of fables. The Prophete Esay saith, there were scholars in his time that woulde saye to their teachers. Loquimini nobis placentia, videte nobis erro­res. Auferte a nobis viam, declinate semitā, cesser à facie nostra [...] Israell. That is speake to vs suche things as may like vs, See vs er­rours, [Page] leade vs out of the waye, bring vs out of the path. Let vs haue no more of the holye God of Israel before our face. And shal I thinke you chouse me for loue, as men do their wyues? I can as yet litle finde it in your talke. But be­cause I came nere to the matter, and with my negatiue declared y ^e weakenes of your syde, more then some others did, therfore ye brake out first vpon me, & laid in a claim without euidence.

And hauing nothing to say, ye would seme to haue somwhat. As women y ^t woulde seme to be with child, sometimes rear vp their bel­lies with a cushion.

¶ Sarum.

Y [...] desire, ye maye not be caste of, but that your suite may be [...].

And yet this halfe yere long. I haue [...] of you, and all your brethren, but [Page 59] one pore sentence, and still, I know not how, I am cast of, and can get nothinge at your [...]andes.

¶ Cole.

VVE stand not in case like. What [...] so much ot one thing.

The reply. Sarum.

YE are much beholdē to your re­cognisaūce, ye make much a do, and yet bring nothing.

¶ Sarum.

YE call for the speciall proufes of our doctrine, which thing requi­reth a whole boke. Wheras if ye of your parte, would bouchsafe to bring but two lines, the whole mater were concluded.

¶ Cole.

[...] that I required may be couched in [...] and for ought I see in lesse to.

The reply. Sarum.

LEt the rest of youre trueth be tryed by this. Ye knowe that [Page] the olde father. Theodoretus, had more then sixe lynes of oure syde, and therfore D. Clement tare the whole plate out of his boke, and burnte it, thinking there had ben no more copies, least perhappes it [...]hould cum to light.

Ye know, that Occam, one of your owne doctoures, hath more then sixe lynes against you. And therfore the last Pope condemned him as an heretike.

[...] knowe, there is sumwhat besyde in S. Augustin, in s. Hie­rome, in S. [...]. &c. I be­leue more then Royarde, or Tap­ [...], could euer answer.

Ye knowe, that ye your selfe in your last answer graunted me y ^t the exāples of y ^• primatiue church are of our syde & therfore ye rest [...] an [...] point that the Pri­mitiue [Page 60] churche in the Apostles, & old doctours tyme was but an in­fant and a babe in comparison of your Church of Rome. Therfore me thinketh, sauinge that it was your pleasure, ye were sumwhat ouer seen to say, that all our alle­gations may be couched in syxe lines. But as I haue offred you oftē times, bring ye but two lines of your syd, and the field is yours.

¶ Sarum.

YEt lest I should seme to flye confe­rece and trial, which in dede in this case I most desire, or to folowe you in discourtesy, I will perfourme sume part of your request, although in dede it be vnreasonable.

¶ Cole

IT is no discourtesy, to refuse to do that, wher­with I might forfeit my recognisaunce.

The Reply. Sarum.

YOur recognisaunce doth you good seruice to saue your cre­dit, [Page] ye fly away like a faint Soul­diour, and yet hold vp your shield as if ye wer fighting still.

¶ Sarum.

AGainst your new deuise of transub­stantiation (besides manye others whō I nowe passe by) ye haue y ^e olde fa­ther, and doctour, Gelasius, whose iud­gement, I beleue, ye wil regard y ^t [...], because he was sometymes a Bishop of Rome, which See, as ye [...] taught, [...] neuer erre. And is alledged in y ^t de­crees, his wordes be plaine.

Non desinit esse substantia panis, & natura vini.

¶ Cole.

I Se [...] ye write much, and read litle. [...] [...] is ful answered by Tapper, in articulo de [...]. Ye alledge his words other­wise then ye find them. Which fault I trust go­weth [...] ouer sight.

The Reply. Sarum.

HOwe are ye so priuie to my reading▪ Wyse men auouch no more then they knowe, [Page 61] ye lackte shift when ye were dri­uen to wryt thus. I assure you I haue not been so slacke a student these. xx. yeares, but that besydes other old wryters of diuers sorts Grek and Latine, I haue not spa­red to reade ouer, euen suche as haue wrytten of youre syde, as [...], Pigghius, Hosmaste­rus, [...], Hossius, and suche o­thers, and yet, vmil this day I ne­uer set abroad in prynte. xx. lynes. But this is youre olde wont, to make the people thinke that we reade nothinge els but. ii. penny doctoures, as ye call them. As in the disputation at Westminster, ye would seme to stand in doubt, whether we were able to vnder­stande you or no, when ye speake a little Latine: and as of late ye doubted not to saye, that mayster [Page] doctour Martyr was not abl [...] to make a Sillogismus, which thing in dede, is as true, as the rest of your religion.

But I praye you, what had Stephen Gardiner red, when he alledged the third voke of S. Au­gustin, de sermone domini in mo [...]e and yet S. Augustin neuer wrote but two.

What had the same Stephen Gardiner rede, when he alledged Theophilactus, and called hym Theophilus Alexandrinus, who was before Theophylactus well nere fyue h [...]ndred yeres:

What had doctour Smith of Dron. red, that openly in the dis­putatiōs there, An. Domini. 1554. alledged the cou [...]cell of Nice to proue the phansy of your transub­stantiation: and when he came to [Page 62] shew the place, was not able to fynd one worde, other in that coū ­cell, or in any other of antiquitie, that might seme to make for it.

What had he red, that being a Judg in y ^• same disputations cried out so bitterly vpon y ^e man of god, the Archebishop of Canterburie, and that foure or fyue times toge­ther, D. Ogl [...] ­throp. ostēde mihi qualis corpus fuit? qualis corpus fuit? & was not hable to vtter his mind in cōgrue latin. This thing I trust ye wil recorde with me, for it was spokē in your own hearing.

Your importunitie hath caused me, contrary to myn own nature, to vtter these things, which other­wise I coulde haue conceiled. O, bost not [...]our self to much of your great reading. When ye bring me any olde Doctour, or councell, for [Page] your purpose in the matters y ^e we now talke of, then will I saye, ye haue read muche.

As for Gelasius how soeuer it pleaseth. D. Tapper to co [...]tue him, he sayeth plainly, that in the Sacrament there remaineth the substaunce, and nature, of breade and wyne. But ye say, I alledge Gelasius otherwise then I fynde him, and hereof your frends haue made much a do. I se, it muste be a very small fault that shall escape your eyes. Gelasius wordes be these. Non desinit esse substātia pa­nis, vel natura vin [...]. Which words, hauing not the boke at hand, I re ported thus: Non desinit esse sub­stantia panis, & natura vini. I be­sech you, howe far went I [...] from the words, or from the mea­ning of the authour? I se it was [Page 63] not for nought, that childrē in the Scholes were wonte to fynde a difference betwene these two pro­posicions comedi bis panē, and bis panem comedi. But I perceine the faut was such that ye were loth to make mater of it. If I had alte­red any part of the sence and mea­ning of the wryter, I trow, I had ben lyke to heare more of it.

I remember what a clappinge of handes, and stamping of fete, ye made at Oxen. agaynst that notable godlye learned man, the Archebishop of Cantorburye, for that he, alledging a place oute of Saint Hilarie, had chaunged but one letter, and wrytten, verò, in stende of verè, Ye triumphed ouer hym, and poynted hym to the people, and called hym a falsarie, a wrester, a corrupter of the Doc­tours. [Page] And yet afterward it was founde, and wil yet appere y ^e two of your owne doctours Steuen Gardiner, & Smith in their owne printed bokes had chaunged the same letter, & written, vero, aswel as he.

Howbeit, God be thanked ye will not geue me cause to fynde such fault with your allegations, for ye are able to alledge nothing at all.

But it were to lōg to shew how many times, and how shamefully, the wryters of your syd haue cor­rupted the old doctours. Yet for example sake, of a great nomber to shew you one or two, how thinke ye by your doctour Pighius, that violētly altereth both the words, and the meaning of S. Augustin. For where S. Augustine wryteth [Page 64] thus. Quid tam grate offerri, aut ab illo suscipi potest, quam caro sacri­ficii De. Tr [...]. libro. 4. capi. 14. nostri, corpus effectum Sacer­dotis nostri, meaninge the Sacri­fice that Christ offered vpon the Crosse. Pighius putteth in of hys own A nobis, which S. Augustin had not, and made vp the sentence of this sorte. Quid tam gratè offerri à nobis, aut ab illo suscipi, potest, quam caro sacrificii nostri, corpus effectum Sacerdotis nostri, and so perforce, turned it to the pretensed Sacrifice of your masse.

How thinke ye by Steuen Gar­diner, that in his boke of y ^e deuels sophistrie, was not afraied to cor­rupt y ^e wordes of y ^e holy Prophet▪ for wher as dauid had writte. Escā dedid timentibus se, he doubled the pronoune, and wrote it thus. Escā se dedit timentibus se. This muste [Page] nedes appear to be somwhat more then an ouersight. But what ne­deth mo examples? Camotensis a doctour of your own, saith in ge­nerall of all your syd. Vim faciunt Scripturis vt habeant plenitudinem potestatis, they wreste, sayth he, y ^e Scriptures violently y ^t they may haue the fulnes of their power.

¶ Sarum.

BUt to auoid this authoritie, sum mē, of your syde, haue ben driuen to er­pound these plaine wordes of Gela­sius, in this sort: Non desinit esse substatnia, hoc est, non definit esse accidens. Euen as right as the glose expoundeth y ^• Texte. Dist. 4. Statuimus, id est abrogamus.

¶ Cole.

[...] what they are, that it be not thought y ^• ye deuise this of your own fantasy. This glose ye [...]. because ye vnderstand not y ^• Glosers [...]. It may stande ful wel.

The Reply. Sarum.

WHat if I should say Doctoure Cole hath expounded it so? If [Page 65] not, then I pray you imagin with your selfe howe ye may be able to shift away Gelasius otherwise. Yet because ye will nedes put me to my proufes, in a matter that ye knowe is plaine, I pray you take the paines to read Steuen Gar­diner, in his boke that is answe­red by the Archebishop of Cantor­bury Thomas Cranmer, ye shall finde these wordes. Gelasius saith he, speaking of the bread and wyn, reciteth not precysely the substan­ce to remayne, but sayeth the sub­staunce or nature: whiche nature he calleth after the property. Here by this doctoures mynde, substan­tia, is latine for propertie, whyche as ye knowe, is nothinge els but accidens.

And againe in his boke that he calleth. Marcus Antonius Con­stantius, [Page] written in latine, ye shall finde these wordes: Quod ait panē in sua substantia, vel natura manere, vel substantiam sentit Accidentiū, vel naturae proprietatē. It is a very straūg phrase of speach to say sub­stantia accidentium. But it is as straunge to say, as he saith in ano­ther place, Accidentia sunt substan­tiarū partes. Howbeit after ye had once deuised a new religiō, it was mete that ye shuld deuise out also some new phrases of speache, that neuer had bē heard afore. And yet is not this the grossest part of your learning neither. Now I trust, ye se I deuised not this of myn own phantasye.

I marueil sum what that ye say I vnderstand not y ^• Glosers mea­ning. For me thiketh there is not so high nor misticall learninge in [Page 66] it, but that a meane learned man may sone reach vnto it. But I se, it must be a desperate sore, but ye will fynde sum salue for it. I pray you first read the text, and then cō ­sider how handsumly the glose wil frame vnto it. The text is this: Statuimus, vt septem hebdomadas plenas ante sanctum Pascha, omnes Clerici, id est, in sortem Domini vo eati à carne ieiunēt. Now foloweth your glose, Statuimus, id est, abro­gamus. And because ye vnderstād the glose better then I, as ye say, and lyke it so wel, reade the texte accordingly, and say thus, Abro­gamus vt [...]ptem hebdomadas ple­nas ante sanctum Pascha, omnes cle­rici à carne ieiunent And I beleue what soeuer meaninge ye make of it, ye shal make but vnhandsom la­tin. Nowe let your reader iudge, [Page] whether of vs two better vnder­standeth the glosers meaning.

¶ Sarum.

HEre ye haue, that after the words of consecraciō, there remaineth in the Sacrament the substance of bread & wyne. Now bring ye but one doctoure, that wil say, as ye say, that there remat­nesh onely the Accidentes, and shewes of bread and wine and I will yeide.

¶ Cole.

SOft and [...], ye hau [...] not read y ^• answer. [...] [...], and ye shall se more. [...] my [...] I shalbe ready for ye.

The Reply. Sarum.

IF Royardes answere had been worth the hearing, ye would not haue been ashamed to haue al­ledged his words. At your [...]ue ye wilbe as ready, as S George a horse backe, euermore ryding, & yet euermore standing stil, ye wil be a very euill Auditour, y ^• lay downe so litle, & reken so much. But bring [Page 67] sum olde councell, or doctour, with you at your cue, or els folke wyll say, ye haue none to bring.

¶ Sarum

AS touching a priuate masse, Gre­gorye saith in his dialogues, that before the tyme of the communion the Deacon was wont, euē in his tyme, to crye vnto the people on this wyse. Qui non communicat, locum cedat al­teri. Who so wil not receiue, let him de­part, and geue place to others.

¶ Cole.

YE haue better [...] then this. I [...], for thi [...] [...] some what weake.

The Reply. Sarum.

WHatsoeuer thys stufe se­meth to you, your answer semeth to me very weak. [...]f ye be no better able to answere this, howe wyll ye be able to an­swere the reast: It appeareth by these wordes of Sainet Gregory, [Page] that in his time; which was six hundred yeares after. Christ. who so would not communicate wyth the Prist, at the communion was commaunded out of the Ehurche. Wherby it is cleare they had then a communion, and that al the con­gregation present, receiued toge­ther. Nowe eyther shew ye me so much for your priuate masse or els say nomore, this stufe is weake.

¶ Sarum.

TO breake y ^• ordinaunce of Christ, and the people to communicate vnder one kinde only, your owne do [...]tout Gelasius calleth it Sacri­legium. And Theophilus [...] of y ^• sa [...] matter, [...] [...]: Si Chri­st [...] [...] fuisset pro Di [...]olo, non [...] ­tur illi poculum sanguinis.

¶ Cole.

THe [...], where [...] [...] this of Gelasius [...] [...] [...] [...] should [...] it. Theo­ [...] shalbe [...], when I cuine to dispute with you.

The reply. Sarum.

HEre, I trow, your memory de­ceiued you, ye mean the glose, and not the decree. For the words of Gelasius in y ^• decree, are plaine: Diuisio vnius eiusdémque mysterii sine grandi sacrilegio non potest ꝑ­uenire. And the wordes y ^• he vseth further: vt integra Sacramenta per­cipiant, aut ab integris arceantur: seme not so much to pertaine to the Priestes as to the people. But ye did wel to turn ouer Theophilus vntill sum other tyme, for I wene ye had no answer ready made.

¶ Sarum.

THat the common praiers were vsed in the common knowen tonge y­haue. S. Basill, S. Hierom, S. Am­brose, S. Augustin, S. Chrisostome and the Emperour Iustinian, & many others. The plares be knowen.

¶ Cole.

[Page]WHether the Greke, and Latin tuug, were then vnderstand of the common people re­maineth yet vpon prou [...]e▪ wel. I trowe. S. Basill aproueth not very well. Here I remain [...] in doubt.

The Reply. Sarum.

I Matueile muche that any lear­ned mā shuld doubt at this. For if the common Greke people vn­derstode not the Greke tong, nor the common Latin people, y ^• latin tong, then woulde I sain knowe what tong they vnderstode? I can see no greate cause why they shuld forgeat their own tong, and learn another. But Arnobius, in his tim called the latin tong, Sermonem I­talū, because it was vsed through­out all Italy.

S. Ambrose in his tyme, prea­thed to the people of Italy in la­tin, and as it is to be thought, the people vnderstode him.

[Page 69]S. Augnstin, in his sermons to y ^• commen people in Aphrica hath diuerse times these wordes. Nunc loquar latinè vt omnes intelligatis. Now wil I speak latin saith saint Augustin to the commen people, that ye may al vnderstand me. S. Gregory, in his sermons vsed the latin tong to the people, & I trow he spake not al in vain. I marueil why ye doubt not aswel, whether the commen Greke people vnder­stod Demosthenes, or Aeschines: or the commē latin people vnder­stode Cicero, or Hortensius, when they spake vnto them in their mo­ther tong.

Now, that the cōmen prayers, in S. Basiles, S. Ambrose, & S. Augustines tym were in the com­men bulgare tong, marke howe well it maye be proued. S Basil [Page] saith thus of the vsage of the com­men prayer in his tym. Coniūctus sonus virorum, mulierum, paruulo­rum, tanquam fluctus feciētis litto­ra, in nostris ad Deum precibus ex­citatur. In our praiers y ^t we make to God, we raise vp such a soūd of the voices of men wemen, & chil­drē praying together, as if it wer y ^• noise of the waues beating agaīst the sea bankes. Wherby it appea­reth that in S. Basiles tym, men, women, and children, sang in the Churches altogether.

Chrisostom of his tym sayth thus: Ne mireris, si in sacris nostris, popu­lus, cum sacerdote colloquatur?

Maruil not, saith he, if that in our prayers the Priest and the people talke together.

Augustin of his tym, saith thus: Non est opus loquutione cum ora­mus, [Page 70] id est, sonantibus verbis, nisi forte sicut Sacerdotes faciunt, signi­ficādae mētis suae causa, non vt deus, sed vt homines audiant. We nede not, saith he, to vse words, or sound of voice, whē we pray onlesse it be, as the Priestes do, to declare their meaning, not to the entēt that god may therfore heare them, but that they may be heard of men.

But, because ye be a doctoure of law, I would not haue you forget Iustinian the Emperour, the first compyler of your lawes. He, if ye be remembred, commaunded the Bishops that they should set forth the commen prayers in opē voice, and that, as he sayeth: Vt maiori deuotione audientium animi effe­rantur. That is, that the mindes of the heares may be striken w ^t more deuocion. He thought then that y ^• [Page] vnderstanding of y ^• praiers should enkendle deuocion in the hartes of y ^• hearers. For I beleue, he had neuer heard say, that ignoraunce shoulde be the cause of true deuo­cion, as ye boldely auouched in the disputtacion at westminster, in the hearinge, and wonderinge, of the most part of the honourable, and worshipful of this realm. I know not by what secrete Reuelation ye learned this first. For your owne Counsels say. Ignorantia mater est cuuctorum errorū. That is to say, ignoraunce is y ^• mother of all ma­ner errours. And the same words ye haue alledged in your own de­crees. Distin. 38. & are very agrea­ble vnto Christes wordes in the Gospel. Erratis nescientes Scriptu­ras: ye are in errour, because ye vn­derstand not the Scriptures.

[Page 70]Origenes, one of the oldest doc­tours of y ^• Church, saith thus: Tor­mentum est Diabolo, si quem videat legere sacras literas: possidet enim omnes qui versantur in ignorantia. It is a skourge (saith he) & a tor­ment to the deuell, if he se any mā read the Scriptures: for he hath power vpon all them that [...] in ignoraunce.

S. Cyril saith, Pueri nostri le­gunt sacras literas, & ex eo fiunt re­ligiosissimi. Our childrē, saith he, read scriptures, and therof they be cum deuout and holy.

And what needeth mo allega­tions? your owne Doctour, Lyra, saith. Si populus intelligat ratio­nem sacerdotis, melius reducitur in Deum, & maiori deuotione respon­det, Amen. That is, if the people vnderstande the Priest, they are [Page] better brought to God, and with more deuotion they answer. Amē. It muste needes be a miserable cause that is grounded only vpon ignorance, for no man hateth the light, but he that doth euel. Christ said to the Pharisies, this is your time, and the power of Darkenes yf the people had vnderstandyng of the truth, they wolde not suffer you thus to leade them into error as ye do, and haue done. But I re­member Plinius wryteth, y ^t, not­withstanding the Lyon be a mar­uelous fierce & courragious beast, yet if he may once hodwinck him, or make him blīd, ye may lead him whither ye list. Thus much by the way, I thought good to put you in remembrance, for that the stran­genes of your doctrine so requi­red, yf ye had asmuch to shewe of [Page 72] your syd, I beleue, of your courte­sy, ye wold not hyde it.

¶ Sarum.

YE se I disaduātage my self of many things that might be spoken for at this present, I haue not [...] to wryte Bokes.

¶ Cole

I pray you take good leysure, & writ affectually.

The Reply Sarum.

A Doctour of Lawe, and a man of wisedō, should bring more learning, and fewer skornes.

¶ Sarum.

NOw must I needes desire you for­asmuche as I haue folowed your mynd so far, eyther to bring me one Doctour of your syde, or els to giue vs leaue to thinke ye haue none.

¶ Cole.

I wis, ye know I may not, [...] the case I [...] in, [...] it not.

The reply. Sarum.

I wis, ye know ye can not, & ther­fore [Page] ye do best to say ye may not.

¶ Sarum.

YE desyre vs to leaue talking against you, and no more to deale so vnmer­cifully with you in the Pulpittes. Alas maister doctour, cal ye this vnmer­cifull dealing? what was then your dea­ling, when ye wer in place? if ye remem­ber ye could neuer vouchsaue to call vs other then Schimatikes, Heretikes, or Traitours, in y [...]ur Pulpittes. And yet besides al that, ye vsed our Bodies as ye know. We only tel the people, as our dewty is, that ye withstand the manifest truth, and yet haue neitherscripture, nor doctour, nor councel for you. And that ye haue shewed suche extremitye, as the lyke hath not bene sene. And nowe can geue no rekning why, or if ye can, let it appeare.

¶ Cole.

YE misreporteme. I said [...] men of your syde [...] sed thē seltes traiterously to Quene Mary as none of vs do now, not manifest, vntill it be bet­ter proued. ye had but the Law, ye require more then any Law will [...] against vs.

The reply. Sarum.

IF they wer Traitours, why did ye burne thē, as Heretikes? The matter woulde bee to odious to shewe what hath ben wrought by men of youre syde against theyr Princes. But as I then neuer liked thē, that drew their sword a­gainst their souerain: euē so now I pray god cōfoūd thē, whosoeuer they be, y ^t shal first begin the same.

What lawe ye ministred vs in those dayes, I remit it vnto you that are a lawier. But I am well assured, ye shewed vs neither di­uinitye, nor humanitye. But I pray you, what law had ye, to im­prison sutche euen as had broken no lawe? and so to kepe them in your cole houses, in stokes, and fetters, with all extremitye and exueltye, vntil ye had made a lawe [Page] for them, and to do with them, as Cyril saieth the Jewes did with Christ, primum ligant, deinde cau­sas in eum quaerunt▪ prius captū ha­bent, quàm accusatum. First, they bind him fast, saith Cyrill, and thē they deuise matter agaiust hym: They lay handes vpon him before any man accuse him.

What law had ye, to burne the Quenes subiectes handes w ^t can­delles, or torches, before they were condemned to dye by any law? What law had ye, to ascite a man to appeare, peremptoriè, at Rome within lxxx. dayes, and yet that not withstanding to kepe him still in prison in Oxforde? and after­warde for not appearinge at hys day, at Rome, to condemne hym there as obstinate?

Or what law had ye, to put the [Page 74] same man to death against the ex­presse wordes of your own lawe after he had subscribed vnto you, and was founde in no relapse? I trust ye can say some what herein. For that you being then a lawier and in commission, had the execu­cion of y ^t law. But I beleue, when ye haue searched your b [...]kes thro­ugh, ye shall fynde ye had not so much law, as they that sayd. Nos habemus legem, & secundum legē debet mori.

Sarum.

WHere ye say, our doctrine is yet in doubt. I assure you, to vs it is most certain, and out of doubt. But if ye for youre part be yet in doubt, reason and charity would ye had been better resolued, and qyut out of doubt, before ye had dealt so unmercifully with your brethren.

¶ Cole.

[Page]I Doubted more thē I do now, ye geue me good cause to be well confirmed.

The reply. Sarum.

THis is a faire shift of retorike when other help faileth you: Euen thus the Pharises af­ter they had ben lōg in a mamme­ring, and in doubt of Christ, at the last were fully confirmed and out of doubt, and saied vnto him, [...] scimus te habere daemon [...]um. As if they shoulde then haue sayed vnto Christ, as you say nowe to vs: we doubted more before then we do nowe, for nowe ye geue vs good cause to be well confirmed▪ But if I haue confirmed you bringynge such proufes as ye are not able to answer, how then (thinke ye) haue others cause to be confirmed at your handes, that haue vsed suche extremity, and yet ar able to bring nothing at all,

¶ Sarum.

YE are bounde ye say, and maye not dispute: yet are ye not so bounde as ye haue bounde others. But when [...] wer at libertie, and a [...] disputation was graunted and offered at Westmin­ster before the Quenes ma [...]esties moste honorable councell, and the whole state of the Realm, I pray you, whether part was it that then gaue ouer? And yet the, ye knowe, ye were not bounde, onlesse it were to [...]lence because ye had nothing to say.

¶ Cole

AT Westminster we came to dispute. & were answered that there was non appointed, wher we refused not to write neyther. But when our boke could not be read as yours was, we refused not vtterly to dispute, but onely in the case if oure boke could not be suffered to be red as indifferētly as yours was. Now hardely weigh whether ye haue indifferently reported, that we vtterly refu­sed to dispute with you, or no.

The reply. Sarum.

YE could not lightly haue got­ten so many vntruethes toge­ther, without sume st [...]y. Where [Page] ye saye, ye were answered, there was no disputation appointed at Westminster, if I should aske you who made you that answer, I re­kē ye would be to siek. For I trust ye haue not yet forgotten, that ye your selfe were the first man that began to dispute there that day, & spake there an whole houre toge­ther without interruption. But I marueil ye say not, that we of our part gaue you ouer, and refused to dispute.

Ye say, ye refused not to wryte your allegaciōs, and answeares as ye had promised to do, and ear­nestly required it might be so, and yet contrary to your request and promise, ye could not begotten, as ye know, to writ one line.

Ye saye, your boke could not be read as ours was, & yet ye knowe [Page 76] ye had no boke there to be read at all, as we had.

As for the indifferent ordering and hearing of the matters, I re­mit that to them that wer the or­derers of it, of whom ye can not in any wise complain, but both your own, and the hearers consciences, must nedes accuse you.

The order of the disputa [...]ion was that both partes shoulde the fyrst day bring in their assertion al in writing and that the nexte day, eyther party should answer the o­thers boke, and that also by wry­tig: which was your own request, as it wil apperre by your protesta­tion sent to the councell in that be­halfe. The first day, ye came with­out any boke at all, contrary to the order taken, and also, as I haue sayd, to your own request. The se­cond [Page] day, ye refused to procede any father, and stode onely vpon this point, that onlesse ye might haue the last word, ye would not disput. For ye said whosoeuer might haue that, wer like to discedere cum ap­plausu: for these very wordes two of your own company vttered in latin, euen by the same termes as D. Skot. [...]d Fec­ [...]. I do now. Otherwise ye sayd ye would not dispute. Which answer was so vain, that not onelye y ^• rest of the hearers, but olso y ^• Bishop, that thē was, of Yorke, your own frend, foūd faulte with it and was ashamed of it, & bad you procede. In conclusion, contrary to al mēs loking for, onely vpon your refu­sall, the disputacion was sodenlye broken of: And I am contente to stande to the iudgement of all the hea [...]ers herein, whether I haue [Page 77] reported indifferently, or no.

¶ Sarum.

YE say ye remayne still in the faith ye wer baptised in. O ma [...]ter doctour, stande not to much vpon that point. Ye know ye haue already forsaken a great number of thinges that were thought necessary when ye were baptised. And yet besides that, how many tymes haue sum of you altered your faith within the space of xx. yeres. Remeber wel your self [...]. who wrote the boke, de vera obedientia, against the supremacy of Rome? Boner. Who commended it with his preface? Tūstal Who set it forth in solemne Sermōs? D. Col. & almost al ther [...] Who confirmed it with open othe?

¶ Cole.

VVHat one thinge am I gone from? ye saye muche, and proue little. Ye meane the [...] Bishop of winchester, who repented at the houre of his death. [...]nd where ye meane I condescēded to the [...] of king Henry at [...] first com­ming home, or I had laboured the matter, ye dyd the [...]ke your selfe. For in Quene Maries tyme▪ ye subscribed to the [...], sume of them we are entred to talke in, [...] youre no les blame then [Page] mine. There be in this town that both saw yo [...] subscryb, and can bryng forth you [...] hand.

The Reply. Sarum.

YEs, I thinke ye are gone frō one thing at the least, besides pardons, and pilgrimeges. I ment not D. Gardiner to pul him out of his graue, & to tormēt him being dead: as ye did master Bu­cer, master Fagius, in Cambridg, Doctour Peter martirs wyfe in Oxon. & others mo: but onely that I woulde not haue you builde to much vpon your constancy, which hitherto hath [...]en fo [...]nd to be [...] as the pleasure of the prince.

But he repented him, ye saye, when he saw he shoulde nedes dye. I trust he did so, for he had good cause so to do. But if he repented himselfe of his boke y ^• he had writ­ten so stoutly against y ^• pope, why [Page 78] did he not recant it in all his lyfe tyme? why did he not re [...]oke hys errour openly? why helde he hys peace? why dissēbled he so depely, for the space of xx. yeares together.

[...]e say, it was onely at youre first comming home from Italy, that ye condescended to the Pry­macie of king Henry. Here muste I put you in remembraunce that ye continewed therin still all king Henries time out, euen vntill the death of king Edward, and y ^• cum­ming in of Quene Mary. And yf her grace had continewed out to haue entitled her selfe y ^• Supreme head of the church of England, as she did a great whyl after her first entry, and y ^• (as it is to bethought) without burthen of her conscience, I doubt not then but ye woulde haue talkt better with your selfe, & [Page] continewed so still. At this meane whyle ye came to the churche, ye sayed and heard y ^e cōmen praiers, ye ministred, and receiued the cō ­munion, and in all your doinges bare your selfe as any other sub­iecte of this realm. And thus held out, as I said, for the space of xx­yeres, I may say to you this was a good long cumming home. Ther­fore I may well thus conclude, [...] ye must nedes confesse the same, y ^t either ye deceiued the people then by your example, and conformitye of all your doinges, allowing that religion for good, whiche in youre conscience ye knew to be nought, or els that ye be a dissembler, and deceyue the people nowe, making them, asmuche as in you lyeth, by your example, to thynke this rel [...] ­gion to be nought, whiche in your [Page 79] cōscience, and knowledge ye find to be godly, and good. So y ^t what soeuer iudgement ye haue now, or hertofore haue had of this religiō, it must nedes appeare, that eyther ye be nowe, or els haue ben a de­ceiuer of the people.

But after ye had laboured the matter better, and, as ye saye had red the doctours, I pray you what doctour found ye, y ^• euer told you, either that y ^• Pope ought to haue the supremacy of y ^• whole church, or y ^t the Prince in his own church ought not to haue it.

But I haue subscribed, ye saye, aswel as ye, and my hand is to be seene, and there be sume that sawe me when I did it. These proufes were nedefull, if I had denied the fact. But I haue cōfessed it open­ly, and vnrequired in the mides of [Page] the congregation. The argumēts that ye made were so terrible, ye concluded altogether with fyer & fagot. I confesse I shoulde haue done otherwyse: But if I had not done, as I did, I had not bene her now to encounter with you, if ye should now be apposed with y ^e like conclusions, I doubte not but ye woulde be glad to do, as bothe ye your self [...], and your felowes haue done heretofore.

¶ Sarum.

YE haue Ecclesiam Apostolicam, ye saye and we haue none, yet ye knowe in all these matters y ^t we now entreat of, we haue the olde doctours churche, y ^• auncient councels church, the primatiue church. S. Peters church, Saint Paules church, and Christes church. And this [...] beleue, onlesse ye can brig me good rea­son to the cōtrary, may be called y ^• Apo­stles church. And I marueil muche that ye hauing, as ye know, none of all these [Page 80] churchs, or any shadow or token of th [...] yet shold so boldely saye, ye haue Ecclesi [...] Apostolicam.

¶ Cole.

TO this, and sume part of the Article ye shalbe answered in the ende of this writing, as I be­fore sayed.

¶ Sarum.

WHere ye say, ye make no innonatiōs it is no maruell, for in a maner all thinges were altered to your hande, as may most euidently appeare by all these matters y ^t be now in question. Wherin ye haue vtterly chaunged and abolished the order of the Primatiue church, and do nothing els but y ^• cōtrary. And what euident profit the Church of God hath gotten by it, I thinke it a harde matter for you to declare.

¶ Cole.

VVHat nedeth so much of one thinge? Thys serueth you to seme to say to much.

The Reply. Sarum▪

THis answer is so shorte, that it concludeth nothing.

¶ Sarum

[Page]YE would haue the matter turned ouer to sume suche generall coun­cell, as we woulde be contente to stand vnto. How [...]it that ye think will not be in your time. Notwithstan­ding this I dare boldely saye, suche a councell wilbe, a great whyle before [...] shall finde any doctour, or olde councel, to serue your purpose. But if there ne­uer be suche a councell, yet trueth will be trueth, notwithstanding. For y ^• coū ­cell can not make fal [...]hed trueth, but that thinge that it taketh for trueth, it certifieth only to be true.

¶ Cole

I [...].

¶ Sarum.

BUt what redresse can there be [...] for at such a councel, wheras no mā shall be iudg or suffered to speak [...] way or other, but onely such as be open­ly, and iustly accused, and found faultie? And whereas he that is himselfe moste out of order, shalbe head and reformer of the whole?

¶ Cole.

[Page 81] [...] [...] excuses men laye, how [...], let [...] [...] [...].

The reply. Sarum.

YE knowe, that in youre owne law there was euermore, Ex­ceptio iudicis incompetentis. And by what lawe can ye fynde, that a man maye be a competente iudge in his own cause? if the indifferent vsing of the matter maye be tryed by experyence, in thys youre laste generall councell holden at Try­dent, ye knowe, that not one man of oure syde, notwythstandynge there wer a great nomber of them there, seute thether of purpose by theyr Prynces, coulde be suffered to sit amonge the rest or to haue a voyce, or to yelde a reason of hys faith. And y ^• Pope, Iulius third, gau [...] out vnder his bryeue, that [Page] none of them all shoulde be heard there, vnlesse it were▪ as he sayed, to recant their errours.

And notwstandinge, Pighius himself had confessed ther wer opē errours in the masse, notwithstā ­ding Latomus, a doctour of your own, had confessed a great abuse in the Cōmunion vnder one kind▪ notwitstanding Pius. ii. Bishop of Rome had sene and confessed great abuse in the restrainynge of Priestes mariage: yet in the same councel they concluded among thē selues, y ^t no maner of thing should be changed at all, that had bene once receiued in their C [...]urch.

Therfore these be not fond excu­ses, y ^• world seeth they be to true.

¶ Sarum

BOth parties, ye say, haue waded so far herein, that nowe they can go no farther, and therfore ye would haue [Page 82] [...]ther partye let other alone. This ye say now, because ye see ye are called to an audit, and are not able to make your ac­compte. But if ye of your part had been so indifferent when time was, many a godly man had now been alyue.

¶ Cole.

YE forget your self, I say not so [...], loke bet [...] in the place.

The Reply. Sarum.

IF ye meant not so, it skilleth not greatly. It is to small purpose. Consider it well, and ye shall finde my conclusion true.

¶ Sarum.

WHere ye say, ye would haue the say­inges of both parties we [...]ed by y ^• ba­launce of the olde doctors, ye se, that is our speciall request vnto you. And that in the matters you wryt of, I [...] [...] so to be tryed. But why throw ye away these Balance? And being so oftē times required, why be ye so loth to shew forth but one old doctor of your [...] [...] make [...] beleue, ye would not haue the ma­ [...] [Page] cum to tryall. Only ye set forth the empty names of S. Augustine, of sainct [...], of S. Chrisostome, of S. Ba­stll, of S. Ciprian, of Tertulliā, of Ire­neus, of Dionysius, of the coūcelles. &c. As y ^• Apothe [...]aryes set for [...]h theyr pain­ted Bores, and oftentymes nothinge in them. Ye shewe me onely the names of the doctors, which I knew before. But ye shewe me not one worde in them of the priuate masse, or of the [...] of the matters that lye betwen vs. If ye could haue found any thing in them for your purpose, I beleue ye wolde not haue brought them empty.

Ye say all these matters be already de­termined. But where I pray you? or in what generall councell? This is it that I would so gladly knowe at your hand, and that ye say, ye haue, and yet so vn­gently kepe it from me.

¶ Cole.

THen begin, if ye think the tyme will serue, [...] put it ouer till another tym. All these be but wordes often repeted, and answered alredy.

The Reply. Sarum.

[Page 83]I Haue offered and begon in vain. For ye kepe your selfe of, and wil not come to answer. These words I graunt haue ben vpon good oc­casion oftentimes repeted, and I thinke ye would say some what to them, if ye were able.

¶ Sarum.

YE say, I [...] misreporte the late Councell of Constance. O good master doctor, these words sa­ [...] to much of your choller, and might better haue been spared. I spake more fauourably of y ^• councell, then I might haue done. The words of the councel be these speaking namely of y ^• communion vnder both kinds. Pertinaciter asserētes [...] pofitum, tanquam Heretici [...]rcendi sunt.

By these wordes they that maintein the manifest ordinaunce of Christ, & the practise of the Apostles, are not called [...], as I sayd, but [...] & wilful heretikes. Ye se therfore, my re­porte was more fauourable, then y ^• coū ­ [...] deserued.

¶ Cole.

YE say, the councell of Constance openly pro­nounced against Christ. Wherein Ipray you? [...] the fathers there sayd, who so sayth it is of necessity to receiue vnder both kindes, and the [...] custom of the churche is sacriledge, [...] to be taken as an [...]: & yet non heretik, but in a wrong opini [...]. Then be like ye can bringe in sum text, where Christ cōmaunded it should not be receiued but vnder both kinds which ye cā ne­uer do. So is youre report of this councel slan­derous still. Read. 4. Canonem concil [...] Con­stantienfis.

The Reply. Sarum.

IT grcueth you that I should say, y ^• councell decreed against christ.

But consider it a right & ye shall find it. Christ as ye know, appoin­ted the Communion vnder bothe kindes, and commaunded his dis­ciples to do y ^• same as he had done it. Therfore he that commaūdeth the contrary, and that vnder the paine of heresy, pronounceth opēly against Christ.

Ye call it an approued custome [Page 84] of the church. Yet ye remembers. Ciprians wordes that be alledged in your own decrees, Christus non dicit, ego sum consuetudo, sed ego sum veritas: that is to say, Chryst saith not, I am custum, but I am the trueth, But if custume might iustly preuayle agaynste an open and playne truethe, I praye you where was youre Communyon vnder one kynd euer at any tyme, sence the beginning of the world, allowed for a generall custome [...] Or being but a particuler custō, as it is, and that receiued onely o [...] your selse, in what generall coun­cel was it euer allowed?

Ye say, your own ordinaunces may not be broken, without y ^• an­thority of a general Councel. And dare ye without any suche autho­rity, only vpon a vain and parti­culer [Page] custome, to break the vni­uersall ordenaunce of Christ?

Ye saye, men are not to be iud­ged heretikes, that withstād your order herein, but onely to be in a wrong opinion. Here I se that ye, and your brethren, agree not in iudgemēt both together. And ther­fore ye shall the lesse marueile, yf we disagree, from you, & mistrust you both. For Hossius, a doctoure of your syde, is not afrayed to call it heresy, and sacrilege, his words be plaine.

Nunc haeresin profert, séque pol­licetur ostensurum, omnes esse im­pios, qui vtrius (que) speciei cōmunio­nem laicis denegāt. And again. An autem idem in regno tuo factū non vidimus? vbi Calix per summum sacrilegium vsurpatur? And agayn: vellem autem vnam mihi terram a­liquam [Page 85] ostendi, vbi priuata libidine, calix vsurpari coeptus est in quanō, è vestigio, multae sint aliae & quidē horribiles haereses consequute.

Thus, to do that thinge that Christ and his Apostles, and all the olde fathers did in the primi­tiue Churche, without exception, this doctour concludeth it to be an horrible heresy.

And if it were taken for no he­resye, as ye saye it was not, then was your Councell to muche to blame that gaue so cruell sentence againste the people of Bohema, for that they thought it necessary to vse both kindes, accordingee to the institucion of Christ, and pro­nounced thus against them: Tan­quam Haeretici arcendi sunt. For yf they take them for no heretikes▪ they did them great wrong to pu­nishe [Page] them as heretikes. And yet is your doctour [...] to muche to blame, to condemne any thing for heresy, without any word of God, and speciallye without the autho­rity of any olde doctor, or any ge­nerall councell.

Ye ask me what text I cā bring forth wherin Christ commaūded that the communion should be re­ceyued vnder both kinds. The in­stitucion of Christ, and his com­maundement thereunto annexed, as me thinketh, is texte good i­ [...]ought to him that wilbe ruled by Chryst. I will not aske ye, what text ye can brynge wherin Chryst hath commaūded you to minister the communion in one kind. But this only would I knowe, what text ye can bring wher by a Priest ministring the Sacrament, is cō ­maūded [Page 87] to receiue it in both kids, more then any other lay man. I know your answer, ye must nedes say, the institution of Christ. And yet by your own interpreta [...]ion, if a priest communicate himself vn­der one kinde, Gelasius calleth it Sacrilegium which thyng I reken he would not haue sayd, if he had not thought it contrary to the opē words and institucion of Chryst. Againe, what texte can ye bryng wherbi as touching this point the Priest hath any priueledg aboue the people. If ye can fynd none, as in dede ye shall neuer be able, thē y ^t, that is sacriledg in the Priest, is also sactiledge in the people.

Again, what text can ye bryng, wherby Christ hath precisely for­bidden any man to baptise onlye in the name of the holy gost? vn▪ doubtedly ye can fynd none, in all [Page] the Scripturs, but onely Christs institution. And yet whosoeuer woulde decree that suche kynde of Baptisme shoulde be vsed, I trowe ye woulde saye he decr [...] against Christ, because he brea­keth the institucion of Christ.

Euen so doth your Councell o [...] Constance, in the matter we last talkt of. Therfore my wordes are true still, and yet ye (ye must g [...]ue me leue to say the trueth) haue cō ­cluded with a slaunder.

Touching the thing it selfe, ye are so certaine of it, y ^t none of you all can tell at what tyme it fyrste began. But this ye knowe well, if ye lyst to be knowen of it, that it began nother in Chrystes tyme, nor in the Apostles tyme, nor wythin the olde Doctoures tyme, nor wythin the Compasse of seuen [Page 87] hundred yeares after Christ. And therfore if a man should aske you of your cōmunion vnder onekind, De coelo est, an ex hominibus? ye must nedes answere, it came not from heauē, forasmuch as it hath no testimony of gods worde but onely crept in (as Ste [...]n Gardi­ner confesseth) by a supersticious negligence in the people.

Sarum.

WHere ye say, ye could neuer yet [...] the error of one generall councell, I trowe this escaped you, for default of memory. Albertus Pighius, the grea­test learned man of your fide, hath foū [...] [...]ut such errors to our handes, namely in his boke that he calleth, [...] Hierarchia, speakynge of the second coū ­tell holden at [...]phesus, which ye cā [...]ot [...] but it was generall, and yet tok [...] parte wyth the Heretike, Abbat Euty­ches, agaynst the godlye man, [...]: he wryteth thus, [...] [...], [Page] [...] congregata legitimê, vt benê, ita perpe­ram, iniustè, impie (que) iudicare, ac definire pos­sunt, that is, generall councels, yea euē such as be lawfully summoned, as they may conclude thinges well, so may they likewyse iudge and determine thynges rashely [...], and wickedly.

¶ Cole.

YE ground your self vppon Pigghius [...] ▪ For Pigghius holdeth the councell of Ephe­suo was general, which the Councel of [...], [...]. So that I marueil muche herein of you, that ye alledg that for a councell, whyc [...] hath no place in the [...]oke of councels.

The Reply. Sarum.

IN Pigghius wordes there are two thīgs to be noted. The one is, that he saith a general coūcel may erre in faith The other, that he saith, the second councell of E­phesus was generall. And foras­muche as ye chalenge hym onely for y ^• latter, I thinke ye wil agree with him in the first, which to my purpose is sufficient.

[Page 88]But here ye cause me to mar­ueile, what ye meane to make so little accompt of Pighius, for he, as ye know, hath been taken for y ^• chiefest champion of your syde.

Pighius sayth, the councell o [...] Ephesus was generall, and ye say it was not so. Ye muste geue me leaue to say the trueth, if y ^e matter come to a, quid dicunt, Pigghius wil be taken in y ^r cuntry for a [...] as wel learned, and as skilfull in y ^r counsels, as D. Cole. Ye shoulde not so little esteme the doctours of your own syde, least that beīg not able to alledge any olde doctoure, and refusing the new, it may hap­pely be thought ye haue neyther old, nor new. And yet whē ye [...] before the Quenes maiesties cō ­missioners, at Lambeth, ye sayd o­penly there, that Pighius is ful of [Page] erroures. But forasmuche as ye your self haue begon to find faulte wyth your own doctours, I trust hereafter ye wyll the better beare wyth vs, if we sometyme shall do the same. Here ye dryue me to vse the moe words, partly to defende Pighius in hys right, and partely to make you se howe, wilfully ye wythstande an open trueth, ha­uyng so little to the contrary. And as ye shalbe founde true in thys, euen so am I wel content to take you in all the reast.

First Nicephorus, & Euagrius, that wryte the whole Storye and order of the councell of Ephesus, neuer denied it to be generall.

[...] the Emperoure, that summoned the Bishops together, as it may appeare by hys words, toke it to be generall. For thus he [Page 89] wryteth to y ^e councell, Cogitantes non esse tutum absque vestra sancta Synodo, & vbique sanctarū Eccle­siarum praesulibus, huiusmodi quae­stionem de fide renouari, necessariū duximus vestram sanctitatem con­uenire. These wordes: Sanctarum Ecclesiarum, quae vbique sunt, im­porte a generalitie of all churches through the worlde. Farther, ther was the emperours authority the Bishop of Romes legate, whyche, as sume men thinke maketh vp al together, and other Bishops of all nations. And howe could suche a councell not be generall.

You [...] doctours of Pa [...]yse, haue concluded thus, Articulo XXII. Quod autem magistri nostri dicū [...] de legitima congregatione, notan­dum est ad hoc, vt concilium legiti­mè congregetur, sufficere, quod so­lemnitas [Page] & forma iuris solemniter sit seruata. Quia si quis trahere vel­let hoc in disputationem, vtrū prae­lati, qui ibi sedent, habeant rectam intentionem: & vtrum sint docti, & vtrum habeant scientiam sacrarum literarum, & animū obediendi sanae doctrinae, esset processus in infinitū. That is to say, where as our doc­tours speake of a lawfull councel, we must marke, that to this, that the councel be lawfully gathered, it shalbe sufficient that the solem­nity, and fourme of law be solemly obserued. For if we shoulde moue question, whether the Bishops y ^e sit in councell, haue a godly mea­ning, & whether they be learned, and whether they haue vnder stā ­ding of the scriptures, and whe­ther they mind to submit them sel­ues to sound doctrine, then should [Page 90] we neuer haue done. Thus it is decreed by your doctours, that ne­ther godly meaning, nor learnig, nor knowledge of the Scriptu­res, nor obedience vnto sound doc­trine, is to be weyed in y ^• Bishops that rule the councell, but onely a certaine solemnity, and fourme of law. Dioscorus, that was Presi­dent of the same councel, and hys wordes be reported in the coun­cell of Chalcedō, saith thus. Theo­dosius confirmauit omnia quae iu­dicata sunt à sancta & vniuersali sy­nodo generali. Theodosius, saith he, hath confirmed all such things as were determined by this vni­uersall and generall councel.

Here ye see, it is called an vni­uerlall, and a generall councell. And afterward in the same coun­cell of Chalcedon, ye shall fynde [Page] these wordes. Sanctissimae, & Do­mino amantissimae, vniuersalli Sy­nodo congregatae in Epheso metro poli To the holy, beloued vnto the Lord, y ^• vniuersal coūcel gathered in the mother City of Ephesus.

But if perhappes ye doubte of these wordes, because the one was Eutyches, the other was Diosco­rus, by whom they were spoken (howbeit notwithstandinge they were heretikes, yet could they not lightly make an open lye in a mat­ter that was so euident) then rea [...] ye the olde father Liberatus, that was, Archidiaconꝰ Carthaginiē [...], and liued vnder [...]igilius Bishop of Rome, at the least a thousande yeares ago, and wryteth the very story of this councell, his wordes be these. Fit Ephesi generale conci­lium, ad quod conuenerunt, Flauia­nus, [Page 91] & Eutyches, tanquam iudicādi. There is appointed, saieth he, at Ephesus a generall councel, in the whych Flauianus and Eutyches, made theyr appearaunce, as men standyng to be iudged. Nowe if ye wyll say, that generale concilium, is not in English a general coūcel, then I woulde it mighte be put ouer to some other courte. O mai­ster doctour, if ye meure nothynge els but trueth, ye woulde not do, [...]s ye do.

Thus much haue I written in the defence of your doctour Pig­ghius, for that I saw him accused of you without cause.

¶ Sarum.

ANd of the councels holden of la [...] yeares at Constance and [...]asile▪ whereas Pop [...] John, and Pop [...] [...]ugenius wer deposed, he sayth plain­ly, that they decreed both against reason [Page] and against nature, and against all er­amples of antiquity, and also agaynst the worde of God. And yet both thes [...] councels were called generall.

¶ Cole.

WHerin doeth Pighius proue the councels [...] Constance, and Basil, to haue erred? Mary because they decreed the generall councell to be aboue the Pope. Ifye take these two coūcels to haue erred in these points, ye are a greater pa­pist, then I am. For I holde herein rather with Gerson, I trow this be one place [...] ye wrote not yourself. Yet, I reken no errour proued in anye generall councell by that ye haue yet sayd.

The Reply Sarum.

YEs, I assure you, master doc­tour, I put in this place, & all the reast my selfe alone without conference. And yet God be than­ked. I can finde nothing in your wrytinges but suche as any man may sone geasse it came onely frō your selfe alone. Ye take exception before with y ^t I alledged the coū ­cell of Basil, & sent me worde that no such thing could be found. But [Page 92] now I see ye are better aduised.

As touching Pighius, I vsed his authority herein, as S. Paul, to reproue them that denied the re­surrection, vsed the authoritye of them that baptised for the dead, not for that, he thought such bap­tisme wel ministred, but onlye for that it serueth to his purpose. For I shewed you not what I thoght my selfe, but what Pighius, your great doctour, thought and what ye your selfe must needes thinke, vnlesse ye wil pul down your own doctrine, and set the Pope hym­selfe, and all his adhetentes vpon your top.

But if ye take part with Gersō as ye saye ye do, marke howe the chiefe piller of your buildinge be­gynnes to shake.

If the Pope be head of y ^• church [Page] as ye say, and the councell be but, Ecclesia representatiua, that is a re­semblance of the churche, as your Canonistes and schole men saye▪ howe [...]an it be but y ^• Pope by your own saying (whether Gerson wyl ornyll) must [...]des be head of the councell? for he that is head of the whole) must also be head of y ^• part: onlesse perhappes ye will saye, the parte is greater then the whole.

Of these grauntes of yours there foloweth consequentlye great [...] ­conuenience against your selfe, ye say: The pope is not aboue the councell.

Ergo.

May som other mā say▪ He is muche lesse aboue the hole church.

Again.

The Pope is not aboue the church.

Ergo.

He is not head of the church.

[Page 93]But all this notwithstandinge ye saye the counceli is aboue the Pope. And yet ye know, that euen now whatsoeuer is decreed in any generall coūcell, there is euermore deuoluciō made to y ^• Pope as vn­to him, y ^t is thought to be aboue the councell, and without whom nothing may be concluded.

Haue ye forgotten, that Pope Pius, and Pope Julius, of late yeres commaūded there should no appeale be made from the Pope to any councell.

Haue ye forgotten, that the last general councel holden at Tridēt concluded thus at the cude, Salua semper in omnibus, Sedis Aposto­l [...]cae authoritate: as confessing opē ­ly, that they toke the Pope to be aboue the councel.

Haue ye forgotten, that youre [Page] own doctoures say. Papa est fo [...] omnis iuris, the Pope is the foun­taine of all maner law. And Pa­pa habet omnia iura in scrinio pc­ctoris sui, the Pope hath all lawe vnder the secrete of his breast.

Haue ye forgottē, what is writ­ten in the Popes own decretales? Extra, de electione, & electi pote­state. Si totus mundus sentiet in ali­quo contra Papam, videtur quod standum sit sententiae Pape. If all the world should geue sentence in any matter against the Pope, it appeareth for all that, we ought to stande to the determinacion of the Pope.

Haue ye forgotten, that is writ­ten in your own councels, Papa à nemine iudicatur, the Pope is iud­ged of no man. And a ioly reason ioyned to the same. Quia non est [Page 94] discipulus supra magistrū: for there is no scholer aboue his master.

Haue ye forgotten, that, that is wrytten in your decrees, Neque ab Augusto, neque a regibus, neque a toto clero, neque a populo, Iudex iudicabitur. The iudge, that is to say, y ^t Pope, shalbe iudged, nother by the Emperor, nother by kings, nor by the whole clergye, nor by the people.

And again, Aliorum hominum causas voluit Deus per homines ter minare: sed huius sedis praesulē, suo sine questione seruauit arbitrio.

Other mens causes God woulde haue to be determined and ruled by men. But the Bishop of thys See, out of all doubt, he reserued only to his owne iudgement. And again, Facta subditorum iudican­tur à nobis, nostra autem a solo Deo, [Page] the doinges of our subiectes are iudged by vs: but our doinges are iudged onely by God.

Haue ye forgotten, y ^t your schole men say, Papa habet ius infragabile, de quo non licet disputare. The Pope hath a right y ^t no man maye withstand, of wiche ryght no man may dispute?

Haue ye forgotten, that is writ­ten in your decretales. De transla­tione episcopi, in the glose. Papa na­turam rerum immutat, substantia [...] vnius rei applicando alteri: Et de nullo potest facere aliquid: Et sente­tiam quae nulla est, facit aliquam.

Quia in his quae vult, ei est pro ra­tione voluntas. Nec est qui illi [...], cur ita facis. That is he chan­geth the nature of thyngs, apply­ing the substantiall partes of one thing, to another: And of nothinge [Page 95] he is able to make sumwhat. And that y ^t is no sentence, he maketh a good sencence. For in any thinge that he willeth, his wil standeth in steade of reason. And there is no man, that may say vnto him, why doest thou thus?

Haue ye forgotten, the wordes of your owne councels, Papa non potest iudicari, the Pope can not be iudged. And the same fortefied wyth a good reason, oute of the wordes of the Prophet Esay who spake in the parson of God, Quia scriptum est, Nunquid gloriabitur securis aduersus eum qui secat cum [...]? shall the axe boaste himselfe a­geinst hym that heweth wyth it? Or haue ye forgotten, that Nosti­ensis, your owne doctoure wry­teth, Papa est omnia & super om­nia. The Pope is al, and aboue al, [Page] whych words S. Paule speaketh only of Christ. So reuerently the doctoures of your syde vse gods holy Scriptures.

Yet I passe by a great a nūber of the lyke sentences to the same purpose. Thus ye se, if ye tak part with Gersō, a great many of your own frends wil fall out with you, and ye wilbe in hasard to be cal­led an heretike.

Ye se by this, that the councell of Constance, & Basil, beinge both generall, as Pighius saith decred a falshead, and were in errour, as ye your selfe must nedes confesse, as well as Pighius if ye wil stād to your own doctryne. And ther­fore, Cardinalis Caietanus, one of your own syde, saith, y ^t both these councelles were afterward iustly abrogate, I thynke for that they [Page 95] were thought to haue decreed a­misse. And so both Gerson and ye, by the iudgement of all your bre­thren, remain still in errour.

And when ye haue sought out y ^• bottome of your learning, I be­leue it wylbe harde for you to find any good sufficiēt cause, why a ge­nerall councell may not aswel be deceiued, as a particuler. For Christes promises. Ecce ego vo­biscū sum, and, vbicunque duo aut tres conuenerint in nomine meo, ibi sum ego in medio illorum, are made aswell to y ^• particular coun­cel, as to the generall.

Howbeit, whether the councell may erre or no, ye know it avay­leth you but little to stand greatly to the defence of councels in these points, onlesse ye had sum coūcell to make for you. But lyke as the [Page] Romaines, in old tymes, worship­ped theyr god Uulcanus, wyth al godly honour, and yet woulde ne­uer vouchsaue to geue him a chap­pel within their towne: euen so ye, as it appeareth can content your selfe to honoure the councels, and to haue them euer in mouth, yet wyll ye not vouchesafe to take thē neare to you, and to be ordered by them. And therefore these wordes of yours, are onely of office, and of course, that the very countenaum­ce ye geue the matter, might make your reader beleue, that ye haue all the councels of yoursyde, & w [...] haue none.

Bnt alas what reuerence, or regarde, haue ye to the councels? The councell of Nice, appointed iii. Patriarches to rule the hole churche, eche of them wythin hys [Page 96] precinctes of lyke authority. Ye haue broken this councell, & geuē al y ^• whole authority to one alon. The councell holden at Eliberis, decreed, that ther shold be, no kind of Image, of any thing y ^• is wor­shiped, painted in the churche. Ye haue broken this councell▪ and fil­led your churches ful of Images. The councell of Antioch, decreed, that such as came into the church, and heard the Scriptures read, and abstained from the commu­nion, should be excommunicate frō the church. Ye haue broken thys councel, and nether do ye read the Scriptures in such sorte as y ^• peo­ple maye perceyue them, nor once e [...]horte them to the communion. The councell of Charthage, com­maunded, there should nothynge be rede in the church, but only the [Page] Scriptures of God. [...] haue bro­ken this councel, and red such Le­gendes, and fables, vnto the peo­ple, as ye your self know, were ma nifest and open lyes. The councell of Rome vnder Pope Nicolas, commaundeth, that no man [...] present at y ^• masse of a pryest, whō he knoweth vndoubtedly to kepe a concubine, and that vnder y ^t [...]ayne of [...], yet he, whom ye would se fayn haue to be taken for the head of your churche, not onely hath broken this councell, but also, for a certein ordenary tri­bute to be yerely paied, geueth hys Priestes free licence, and dispen­sacions vnder hys great seal, [...] ­ly to kepe concubines without cō ­trolment. And what nede we [...] examples? [...] make the coūcelles wey as ye wil: whē ye list, as hea­uy [Page 97] as golde: again, when ye list, as light as fethers. Pope Julius, the second called a councell at Rome, onely to ouerthrow the counceil of Pisa. And the whole order of S. Dominiks freers cried out shame vpon the councel of Basil, for that the Bishops there, had taken part with the Scotistes, against the Chomistes, touchinge originall syn in our Lady. The councell of Paris was scott at, and iested out of all partes, and vntill this daye kept of no parte. For our Doctors of England sayd, it had no power to sayle ouer the See▪ Egidius of Rom saith, it was to heauy to clim ouer the Alpes. Thus muche, for that ye seme to stand so [...] to the defence of councels, hauing in these points not one coūcel to al ledge for your self.

Sarum.

YE presse me sore, that if I write you not a boke of my proufes, it wilbe, thought I do it, conscientia imbecilli­tatis. By lyke ye haue forgotten, why ye withall your companye not long sence refused to enter into disputacion w ^t vs at Westminster. Doubtles the greatest part thought it was, as it was in dede, conscientia imbecillitatis. And what thinke ye is there now thought in you, y ^• being so often required, yet can not be won to bryng so much as one pore sentence in your own defence? I haue before alled­ged a few reasons of my part, which, by order of disputacion, I was not bounde to do. Now let the worlde iudge, whe­ther of vs both flyeth conference.

[...] Colo.

I haue answered to thi [...] already. What order of [...] dischargeth you of proufe. Yet re­member, I came not to dispute, but to be taught.

The Reply Sarum.

YE haue answered me by say­ing nothing, whiche I thinke ye would not haue done, if ye had [Page 98] any thynge els to answere, from proufe in thys matter I am suffi­ciently discharged, by the lawe of impossibility. For, as ye sayd, opēly at Westminster (and once agayne I put you in remembraunce of the same, because it is your own law) it is impossible to proue a nega­tiue. All your helpe is in the sha­dow & pretence of learning wher­by it appeareth well ye flye dispu­tation. [...]e were best to get some better cloke to hyde you vnder, for these be but fyg leaues, and couer not your shame.

[...] Sarum.

I Proteste before God, brynge me but one sufficient sentence or authoritye, in the matters I haue required, and afterwarde I will gently, and quy­ [...]tly conferre with you farther at youre pleasurs. Wherfore forasmuch as it is Gods cause, if ye meane simply deale [Page] [...]mply, betray not your right, if ye may saue it by speaking one worde.

¶ Cole.

IF ye refuse to enstruct me, vnl [...]sse I bring som [...] proufe of my part, ye bid me to my coste. Ye bit [...]e to a [...]east, where, whil I should take on me to proue your doctryn naught, I were lyke to for­ [...]eit my recognisance, whiche ye guylefullye allute me vnto.

Thereply. Sarum.

YE hyde your selfe vnder youre Recognisaunce, and thinke ye walke inuisible, as the Oystriche, whē he hath once touched his head vnder a little bough, though the rest of his body whiche is great & large stande open and vncouered yet he thinketh no man can esp [...] him. Although ye be sanded, & set a ground, yet ye kepe vp the sail stil, as if ye had water at your will.

[...]e say, ye may not dispute, lest ye should forfeit your recognisaū ­ce. I would wysh you to remēber [Page 99] your selfe, and to let the people vn­derstand the trueth. [...]e knowe ye are not bound in Recognisaunce for disputinge with any man, but for that being required to disputa­cions by the Quenes most hono­rable councell & the place appoin­ted, & great and worthy audience assembled to y ^• same, ye gaue ouer, as ye know, vpon the sudden, and would not dispute at al. And ther­fore for your disobediēce, & tontēp [...] ye were bound in recognisance.

But I pray you, were ye thus bound in Quene Maries tyme [...]o, as well as now? Or if ye were not bounde, how happened it that ye neuer durst alledg one aunciēt doctor in these matters al y ^t while? Remember your own wordes. [...] said a little before, that ye brought more thē we were able to answer, [Page] notwithstandinge it were, as ye sayd, nor Scriptures nor coūcels, nor doctours. And farther, I pray you, were all y ^• rest of the doctours of your syde, Pighius, Eckius, Hofmasterus, Būderius &c. boūd in Recognisaunce aswel as ye? Or if they were not bound, why were they sodeinty of theyr doctoures, that in these matters they coulde neuer vouchsaue to alledge one. Loke better vpon your Recogni­saunce, I can not beleue ye should be so free to sco [...]e & to scorne, more then eyther diuinitye, or good hu­manitye woulde beare wythall, and onely be forbydden to do that thyng, which of al good reason, ye ought most to do. Or y ^• ye shoulde be restrained from the alledginge ofs. Augustin, S. Hierome. s. Am­brose, S. Chrisostom, s. Basil. &c. [Page 100] and haue a priueledge only to al­ledge Aristotle, Horace, y ^• decrees, the decretales, the Glose, Gerson, Driedo, Royard, & Tapper, suche mē as I neuer could, haue thoght had been canonized and allowed for doctours of the church. Augu­stus Cesar on a tyme as he was passing through Rome & saw cer­tain straung women luling apes, & whelpes in theyr armes, what, sayd he, haue the women of these countries none other childrē? So may I saye vnto you that make so much of Gersō, Driedo, Royard, & Tapper haue y ^t learned mē ofyour syde none other doctors? for alas, these that ye alledge are scarcelye worthy to bee allowed amongest the blacke garde. Hilarus sayeth vnto the Arrians, Cedo aliud Euā ­geliū, shewe me sume other gospel, [Page] for this that ye bringe helpeth you not. Euē so wil I say to you, Cedo alios doctores, shew me sum other doctoures, for these that ye bringe are not worthy the hearing. I ho­yed ye would haue cume in wyth sum fresher bande. It must nedes be sum myserable cause, that can find no better Patrones to cleaue vnto. I know it was not for lacke of good will of your part ye would haue brought other doctours, if ye could haue found them.

¶ Sarum

THe people must needes thinke [...]m what of your silence, and mistrust your doctrine, if it shall appeare to haue no manner of ground, neither of y ^• counsels, nor of the doctours, nor of the Scriptures, nor any one allowed exāple of the Primitiue church, to stand vpon. And so your fyftene hūdred yeres, whith the consent of antiquity, and gene [...]ality, shall come to nothing.

¶ Cole.

GOd wote, I passe little in these matters what the pore sely soules deme of my doings. Wher­in ye haue no cause to complain syth they ve edi­fied towardes you. Wyse men I doubt not, see, what iust cause I haue to do, as I do.

The Reply. Sarum.

NOwe God wote, then are the pore sely soules litle beholden to you, that haue been so long and so worshipfully maintained by the sweat of theyr browes and nowe seyng them, as ye say, deceyued, & perish before your eyes, ye cā hold your peace and let al alone. Saint Paule sayd, Quis infirmatur, & ego non infirmor? quis offenditur, & ego non vror? Cupio Anathema esse à Christo, pro fratribus me [...]s. And so would ye say to, ifye were so sure of y ^• matter, as s. Paul was, or if ye had the spirite of S. Paul.

Wise men, ye say, know that ye [Page] haue iuste cause to doe, as ye doe. Doubtlesse: for he y ^t can fynde no­thinge to saye, hath a reasonable cause to holde his peace. And yet I thinke, a meane wise man may see, y ^t by y ^• vertue of your recogni­saunce ye might as well haue al­iedged s. Augustin, & s. Hierom, as Royard, & Tapper. But ye know, the matter is such, that if ye once cum to allegations, whatsoeuer ye say, it will be the worse. As for my part, so that both the wyse, & the vn wyse may see your errours, and howe litle ye haue to say for your selfe. I passe not greatlye whether yeconfesse the same by speking, or by holding your peace. For, qui ta­cet consentire videtur, as ye youre selfe are wont to [...]ay.

O master doctour, deale simply in gods causes, & say ye haue doc­tours. [Page 102] when ye haue them in dede: & when ye haue thē not, neuer lay the fault in your Recognisaunce.

¶ Sarum.

WHere ye saye, I am not altogether wythout enemies. I assure you who soeuer he be that is enemie vnto me, I for my part, am enemy vnto no mā but on [...]ly wyshe that gods trueth maye be­knowen of all men. But he that is ene­my vnto me, in this behalfe, I feare me is enemy vnto sum other, whō be would be loth to name.

¶ Cole.

YE woulde beare [...]olke in hanbe that they that agree not in doctryne with you▪ are not the Quen [...]s frendes, whyche ye gather by pour owne syde in Quene Maries r [...]ygne. But I neuer brake a [...]ity with any man for dissent [...] r [...]ligion, I [...]epe still my olde frendes be theyr re­ligion good or bad.

The reply, Sarum.

TO the first part therof, I wyll not saye so muche as▪ I were able, God sone confounde al them [Page] that be, or shalbe otherwise. If ye loue your frendes, notwithstan­din [...]e theyr religion, ye are more [...]itable then sume of your bre­thren. For ye remember how vn­frēdly sume of you haue vsed their frends, onely for dissent in religiō, onlesse perhaps ye will say ye im­prisoned th [...]m, and burnte them, euen for very loue.

¶ Sarum.

YE suppressed, ye saye, your first let­ters, for that they were to sow [...] That had bene all one to me, for sowre wordes are not inought to quail [...] the trueth.

Howbeit, to my knowledge, I gau [...] you no ill wordes to encrease that hu­mour. But if ye striue stil agaist nature, as ye say ye haue done nowe, & conquere the reast of your affections to, I doubt not but we shall sone agree.

¶ Cole.

[Page 103]AS though myn [...] affection only, caused me to dissent from you in religion. Whiche argu­ment may [...] you well in Rh [...]torike, but no where els I wene.

The reply. Sarum.

WHen ye shal bring me any such authority as I haue required of you, wherfore ye should dissent from vs in these pointes, then wil I graunt ye dis­sent not only for affection. If ye be able to bring norhing, I truste ye will pardon me to saye, as I saye. This argument, ye saye, woulde serue me in rethorike, & no where els. Thus ye wryt to make youre reader bel [...]e (as ye haue reported in places) that the grounde of my Sermons is rhethorike, and not diuinitye. Wherein ye were sum­what to blame for your so light cre dit. For if ye had heard me youre selfe, as ye neuer did, I thynke ye [Page] might haue hard sumwhat els thē rhetorike. But it appeareth ye hūt very narowly for faultes y ^t accōpt learning for a fault. If I wer skil full in rhetorike, as ye woulde haue me appeare, onelye to discre­dite me with the people, yet can I not vnderstande wherefore that thing shoulde be so faultye in me, that was sumtymes commenda­ble in S. Augustin, in saint Chri­sostome, in saint Hierom, in Arno­bius, in Lactantius, in Cypryane, in Tertullian, and in many other olde godly fathers: for all these, as ye know, were great rhetoriciās. But as in the boke of the kinges, the Assyrians, when they were ouerthrowen by the Iewes, cried out, Dii mōtium sunt dii illorum, the gods of the hils, be theyr gods as though Siluanus, or Pan, or [Page 104] Faunus, had conquered them, and not the true lyuing God of Isra­ell, Euen so ye at this tyme after ye see your selfe scattered, and put to flight, cry out, it is rhetorik and eloquence, that hath ouerthrowen you, and not the force of the gospel of Iesus Christ,

Likwise was Porphirius wōt to say that S. Paule perswaded so farre, and won so many to the faith of Christ, not for that he had any trueth of his side, but only for that with his eloquence, and other subtility, he was able to abuse the simplicity of the people. But, alas, smal rhetorike wold suffice to shew how little ye haue of your syde to alledg for your self.

¶ Sarum.

HEre I leue, putting you e [...]tsones in remēbraūce, y ^t being so oft, & so opē [...] [Page] desired to shew forth one Scripture, or one allowed example of the Primatiue church, or one olde doctour, or one aun­cient councel, in the matters before na­med, yet hetherto ye haue kept back and brought nothing. And that if ye stande so still, it maye well be thought ye do it, conscientia imbecillitatis. For that ther was nothing to be brought.

¶ Cole.

This place is aboue answered.

The Reply. Sarum.

Dou [...]tles, by sayīg nothing, as all the reast.

¶ Cole.

NO we forasinuche as ye make this a great foundation against vs, that we varye from the Primitiue church. and therfore Make simple soules wene that we were in the wronge syde, here, I praye you, shew̄e me youre opinion, whether we are bounde to do all thinges whyche we f [...]nde, by sufficient authority, were in [...] in the Primitiue Church?

And because ye shall not be herein squemi [...]. I shall here my selfe begin to shew you mine. I [...] of the pinion that the councell of Constance was in this matter. I thinke it an errour, I am boūd to do as the Primitiue Church did. Where the [...] customa [...] vseth the [...]ontrary, I [...] [Page 105] an example, and no bonde.

I d [...]ny not, but these examples were to be fo­lowed, and not to ye broken at euery mans wyll, and pleasure, vntill by co [...]en assent other order were [...]aken.

But if ye seke olde wryters, and find me that the church this sixe hundred yeares ob [...]rued [...] many thinges which were praciysed, and accōy­ [...] for good, holesome, and holy in the Primitiue church, and thereb [...] [...] vs in error, this were a wrong [...]. For the church of Christ, hath his childhod, his manhod, & his hoarheares: and as to one man that is mete to [...] in one age, is not mete for him in another: So where manye thinges requisire and necessary in the Primitiue church, which in our dayes, were lyke to do more harme then good. This is no new [...] phan­tasy, but [...] 1100. yeares ago by [...] [...] morose, without reproch. I shewed you and read you the place at [...], as ye may [...], and it were to long to make rehearsall of [...] wordes here. We might by taking contrary opinion her­in, [...] led to thinke we ought to rece [...] the Sa­crament euermore after supper, and not [...]astinge. But S. Augustin sayth, that Christ [...] thys to his church, to take order how, and in what sort the Sacramentes should be receyued and vsed. Wherin he sayth, it is a maruc [...]ous insolent kind of mandnes to [...] that, which is receyued in the church, where the custome is not against an▪ commaundement in Scripture. S. Peter, cau­ [...]ed (as Damasus saith) a comma [...] that [...] womā should come [...] to the churche. S. [...] [...] order, that the [...] shoulde [Page] haue al thinges in commen, and so liue [...]: as in the late reformed order of Saint Benets munkes doth most godly appeare. And not many yeares sence, the same order in all Cathedrall Churches was obscrued. Yet I wene it were an erroure to holde of necessity it should be so still. Or to say, the church were in an errour because it hath suffered a contrary custume to cre [...]e in.

Then, if the [...] of the church maye break tha [...] was in the Primitiue church commaunded it is lesse offence to leaue vndone that was at the beginning practised and no commaundement ge­uen for other to folow the same.

Thus much I thought to put you in remem­braunce of for such matters as ye touche in. 1. 7. 42. 43. nombers.

The Reply. Sarum.

IN the conclusion ye take greate aduātage to answer many thīgs in one Wherein your wordes, be­cause they came flowing down in aboundaunce lyke a Streame, they caryed away a great deale of [...]ime and baggage with them.

First where ye graunte that ye of your syde haue varied, and do yet vary, from the custome of the [Page 106] Primitiue churche, I can not but commend your plaines therin in telling the trueth.

But where then is your anti­quitie becum? where be your aun­cient doctoures? Where be the fif­tene hundred yeares, that ye haue so much talked of? If ye woulde graunt the same in the pulpit opē ­ly before y ^e people, that we require the vse and order of the Primitiue churche, and that ye, of your parte maintain your priuate masse, your supremacy, your vnknowen pray­ers, and the most parte of your re­ligion, contrary to thesame, that our doctrin is olde, and that yours is new. If ye woulde but graunte this simply, & plainly before the people, we woulde desyer no more at your handes.

But ye say further, that the ex­amples [Page] of the Apostles, and doc­tours, vinde you not: that in theyr tyme the church was but an infāt and that many thinges that were good for her in that age, would be hurtfull to her in this age: And therto, notwithstanding your re­cognisaunce, ye alledge S. Augu­stin, and S. Ambrose, wherin I haue cause sumwhat to [...] at your doinges, that nowe can so franckely bring in your doctoures to so smal purpose, & afore in mat­ters of weght, touching the grea­test part of the contencion y ^t stan­deth [...]etwene vs, durst not once name one doctor for feare of youre Recognisaunce. At the last ye con­clude, that it were an error to say, we are boūd of necessity, to folow the vse of the Primitiue churche.

To make you a full and a clear [Page 107] answer hereunto, I must nedes vse this distinction. There were sum orders in y ^e Primitiue church commaunded by God, and sum o­ther were deuised by men, for the better trainyng of y ^e people. Such orders as were commaunded by God, may not be chaunged in any case, only because God commaun­ded thē. For as God is euerlasting so is hys worde and commaunde­ment euerlasting.

Of the other syde, suche orders as haue ben deuised by men, may be brokē, vpon sum good conside­racion, onelye because they were men that deuised thē. For as men them selfe be mortall, so all theyr wisedomes and inuentions be but mortall. As that the communion should be vsed in the mornynge, or at night. That womē should cum [Page] to the church ether couered or opē faced, wherin ye say. Saint Peter toke order. That the ministers goods shoulde be all in comen, or otherwyse. &c. These & other lyke, were things appointed and orde­red by men, and therfore were ne­uer vsed in all places of one sorte. But as they were brought in by men, so might they be dissolued & brokē by men. In these things, I graunt, the exāples of y ^e doctours, or Apostles, bynd vs not. In these thinges it were an errour to saye we are bounde of necessitie, to fo­low the vse of y ^e Primitiue church. These and other like thinges they be, that. S. Ambrose speaketh of, whom ye at Westminster alled­ged in the case ye then entreated of directly making against youre selfe. And we, when we heard you [Page 108] name him first, marueled muche what ye ment to medle with hym aboue al others. For as touching y ^t commen prayers to be had in a straunge tong (whiche matter we had then in hād.) S. Ambrose se­meth of purpose to controlle both you & your brethren, in maner one whole chapter through wrytinge vpon y ^t. xiiii. chap. 1. Cor. And far­ther, the examples that he vseth, in the place, where ye alledged hym, are these. That the deacon, in the Primitiue churche, vsed to preache, and in his tyme preached not: and that women in the Pri­mitiu [...] churche, vsed to baptyse, & in his [...] baptysed not: and that in [...] [...]tiue church, the Sa­crament of Baptysme was mini­stred at all tymes indifferentlye, without difference of dayes, and [Page] that in his time it was ministred onely vpon certain daies.

And yet in your church, contra­ry to the order of s. Ambrose, both women baptise, & deacons preach, and children are baptised euerye day without difference of tyme.

Thus ye would seme to folow S. Ambrose, and yet alledge hym in suche places, where youre selfe moste of all varye from hym. But perhaps your mind was occupied, or ye had not thē leysure to marke hym better.

Hetherto, I thinke we agree, y ^t touchīg such things as haue been ordeyned by men, we are not boūd of necessity to the order of y ^t Pri­mitiue church.

But of the other parte. I say, y ^t such thinges as God [...] cōmaū ­ded precisely by hys word, may ne­uer [Page 109] be broken by any custome, or consent And such be the thynges y ^t we now require at your hands, not deuised by men, but commaū ­ded by God to last for euer. On­lesse ye wil happely say, as Mon­tanus did, that God hath reuealed both mo thinges, and also better thinges vnto you, then euer he did vnto his Apostles: or els, as Ma­nicheus said, that the Apostle sawe nothing, but onely in speculo, & in aenigmate: or as your doctour Sil­uester Prierias saith, Indulgentiae non habent authoritatem ex verbo Dei, sed habent authoritatem ab Ec­clesia Romana, quia maior est. Par­dons, sayth he, haue no ground of gods worde, but they haue theyr groūd of y ^e church of Rome, which is a great deale more. The cup which ye haue takē frō the people, [Page] is not a ceremony, but a part of the Sacrament. And as good right as ye had to take that part away, so good right had ye to take away also the other, and so to leaue the people nothing atal. And therfore y ^t old father Gelasius, saith, aut in­tegra percipiant, aut ab integris ar­ceantur, ether let thē receine y ^e hole Sacramēt, y ^t is to say, vnder both kindes, or els let thē be put from y ^e hole. By which words of the olde doctor Gelasius, it may appeare, y ^t onlesse both partes of the Sacra­mēt be receiued together, the Sa­crament is mangled, & not whole.

Again, to pray in such a tong as the people may vnderstande, and therby be edified, is not a ceremo­ny to be changed at mans plea­sure, but the commaundement of God, for Paul, whē he had spoken [Page 110] long therof, concludeth at the end. Si quis est Propheta, aut spiritualis sciat, quod quae scribo, domini sunt praecepta. If any mā be a Prophet or spiritual, let him wel knowe, y ^e the things y ^e I wryt, are the com­maundemēts of God. Prayer in y ^t vulgare & knowē tong. S. Paule saith, is the cōmaundemēt of God, and not an order taken by man.

Again, for any one man to take vpon him to be vniuersal Bishop of the hole churche. S. Gregorye sayth, it is both against the Gos­pel of Christ, and also against the olde canons, and a [...]cient orders of the churche, his words be these. Quis est iste, qui contra Statuta E­uangelica, con [...]a Canonū decreta, [...] sibi nomē vsurpare praesumit, what man is this that taketh vpō [...]un this new fangled name, to be [Page] called the vniuersal Bishop of the hole church, cōrtary to the lawes of the gospel, & contrary to the de­crees of the Canons. And farther he saith, Consentite in hoc nomen est fidem amittere. To agree vnto this name, is [...]o go frō the fayth. These thinges, and other lyke, be­cause they haue their foundation in gods word, may not be chaun­ged by any order of y ^e churche. For the church, as she is Ladye of her own lawes: so is she but a hande­mayd, to the lawes of Christ.

But here would I faine know what smatterer taughte you to frame this argument?

The churche hath power to break sum orders.

Ergo. She hath power to breke all orders, where, & when she listeth.

[Page 104]As per [...]te a Logiciō as ye make your self, yet here ye haue made a sophistication, A secundum quid ad simpliciter. Which, as ye know in Logik is a foul error in reasonīg.

But it is a world, to cōsider the reasō ye vse to proue your purpose withal. For ye say the Churche in Christs, & the Apostles tym, was but an infant, but now she is well strikē in age, therfore she must be otherwise dieted now, thē she was then. This is not the handsomest cōparison y ^t I haue herd of. For I neuer herd before now, y ^t Christ & his Apostles, wet called infants. Or y ^t euer any man before nowe toke vpon him to set thē to schole. Esay saith y ^t Christ shold be, pater futuri seculi, y ^t is, the sather of the world to cum, which is y ^e tym of y ^t gospel. And s. Hierō, in your owne decrees, calleth y ^t Apostles, patres [Page] that is, not infāts, but the fathers of y ^• church. And I beleue, though ye would study and labor for it, yet would it be very hard for you, ey­ther to find out any good substan­tial reasō, wherfore ye w ^t your brethren ought to be called y ^• fathers of gods church, or Christ and hys apostles ought to be called babes. O y ^t ye wold indifferētly compare the one w ^t the other. Ye shold find, that as lyke as ye & your Bishops are to the Apostles, so lyke is your church to the Apostles church.

But if I would graūt you your comparyson, that Chryst and hys Apostles are vnto you, as childrē to old fatherly mē, yet how could ye make thys argument good by al your Logike.

The churche is now be cū old and auncient.

Ergo. The people must pray in [Page 112] a straunge laguage, they know not what.

Or this. The church is old.

Ergo. The people must receyue the Sacramēt but vnder one kynd.

Or this. The church is olde.

Ergo. The people may not be exhorted to the holy com­munion, but only content thē self w ^t a priuate masse.

If these argumentes seme to be good in law, yet I assure you they seme to me very weak, ether in lo­gik, or in diuinity. Howbeit of such reasōs ye haue stoar ynough, as I were able to shew you at large, if nede so required. As where ye say. Ext [...] [...] Maior [...] ­tate, & obedie [...] ­tia. Cap▪ vn [...] Sāct [...].

Quae sunt potestates. à Deo ordinatae sunt. The powers that be ar ordered by god.

Ergo. The Pope is aboue the Emperour. [Page] Spiritualis, à nemine iudi­catur. The mā that is ru­led by gods sprite, is iud­ged of no man.

Ergo. No man may iudge the Pope.

Sancti estote, quonian ego Innocen­tius dist. 82. pro­posuisti. sanctus sum. Be you holy, for I am holy, saith y ^• lord

Ergo. No maried man maye b [...] a Priest.

Christ said vnto Peter, [...]. Solue pro me, & te, pay y ^• tribut mony for me & thee.

Ergo. The Pope is head of the church.

Ecclesiasticus sayth, [...]. In medio ecclesiae aperu [...]t o [...] suum. He opened hys mouth in the mids of the congregacion.

Ergo. The Priest must turne rounde at the midst of the aulter. [Page 106] Fecit Deus hominē ad ima Conciliīs [...] [...] [...] sub. [...] ginem & similitudinē suā. God made man to the I. mag & likenes of himself.

Ergo. There must be Images in the church.

Papa iuratur in fidem A­postolicam. Concili [...] Basi. sub Euge [...] The Pope is sworn to y ^e Apostles saith.

Ergo. The church can not erre.

Non est discipulus supra Concili [...] Rom. sub Siluestro magistrum. There is no scholar aboue his master.

Ergo, No man may iudg the Pope.

Papa est dominus omnium The Ca­nonistes▪ beneficiorum. The Pope is Lord of al benefices.

Ergo He can not commit Si­mony, though he would. [...]

Domini est terra & ple­nitudo eius. The earth is the Lordes, and the [...] ­nes [Page] therof.

Ergo. The communion cake must be [...]ounde.

Omnis spiritus laudet Do [...]. minū. Let al sprits praise the Lord.

Ergo. Ye must haue Organs in the churche.

Lac vobis potū ▪ dedi. Or D. Col [...] [...] West­ [...]nster. Ignorantia est mater pieta­tis. I gaue you mylke to drinke, or Ignoraunce is the mother of deuocion.

Ergo. The people must make theyr prayers in a strange tung.

Logike was good cheape, [...] these argumentes were allowed. But these and a greate many o­thers, as good as these, haue been made of your syde, as ye knowe. But iudge ye whether they seme to, you to be of such warrant, that [Page 114] vpon the syghte of them, we may [...] safely breake y ^• cōmaundementes of God, or no.

Very loth I was so muche to open the weakenes of your syde. But for as muche as ye wryte that maister Cal [...]ins & master Bucers reasons be such, as none, but yung folke and children wil be moued with thē: your importunity herein hath caused me to do otherwys [...] then I would. Therfore out of a great nomber of lyke arguments of yours, I haue laied forth a few And I beleue▪ nether chylde, nor yong bodye, nor your selfe wylbe greatly moued with them.

Where ye say these things may not be broken by any pryuate au­thoritie, but onely by a generall consente: This is but a dilatorye plee to defraude your aduersarye. Pe know all the Princes of chri­sten▪ [Page] [...]endom are not so sone brought to together. In the mene whyle per­haps ye wil say to your selfe, as ye know whosaith, Interea fiet aliquid spero. But for asmuche as ye geue such credit to a general consent I woulde fain learne at your hand, where this custume of yours first began, or by what consent it was euer allowed.

Steuen Gardiner in his boke of the deuels Sophistry, touching the communion vnder one kynde, imagineth that first sum good de­uout body, for reuerence he had to the Sacrament, thought himselfe not worthy to receyue the cup and so absteined. And then folowed a­nother, and so another, & after ano ther, and so at length it became, as he saith, a generall consent.

Thus he imagineth, only vpon [...]is own gesse. For therwas neuer [Page 108] anye man y ^• so wrote before hym. Nether was he able to shewe nor whence, nor where this custume [...] began, nor how farre it went abroad. But if any one man begā it first, & so another, why did not y ^• Priests and Bishops then speake against it? Why did they suffer one singular man, only vpō a singular phāsy to breake the general order, y ^t was geuen by Christ, & obser­ued by generall consent through the hole church? [...]fit it had bē staid at the first in one, it had neuer past afterward to so many. [...]f it be a wickednesse as ye say, for one man of his own vain phāsy to alter the general order of the whole church then ye see, euen by Steuen Gar­diners confession, y ^t your generall cōsent, wherunto ye lene so much. proceded at the first only of wyc­kednes: And being so, ye remēber [Page] ye haue a rule in your own lawe. Quae à principio malè inchoata fuit institutio, temporis tractu non con­ualescit, that is, the thing that was naught at the beginninge, can not be made good by processe of tyme.

O master doctour, let vs laye asyde all selfe will and contention and haue recourse onely vnto the trueth, that God hath reueyled to vs in his holy worde. For therby shall ye be able to knowe whether y ^• church do right, or no. And ther­by shall ye be able to reforme her▪ if she happen to do amisse▪ For it is possible the church may erre but it is not possible the Scriptures may erre. And the Scriptures of God, haue authority to reforme y ^• churche, but I neuer hearde y ^• the church hath authority to reforme the Scriptures.

Thus Christ reformed the er­rours [Page 116] of the churche in his tyme brought in by the Scribes & Pha­risees, and said vnto them, Scriptū est. Thus S. Paule refourmed y ^• Corinthians for misusing the holy communion in his tyme, and tolde them. Quod accepi à Domino, hoc tradidi vobis, I deliuered you that thing, that I receiued of the lord. Thus the olde father Ireneus, to stay the erroures of his tyme, bad the parties haue a recourse to the most auncient churchs, frō whence religion sprange fyrst. Thus saith Tertullian, to redresse he errors of his tyme. Hoc cōtra omnes Hae­reticos praeiudicat, id esse ve [...]um, quodcunque primum id esse adulte­rum, quodcunque posterius.

This saying sayth the preuayleth against all heretikes, y ^t the thynge that was fyrste ordeyned, is to be taken for true, and whatsoeuer [Page] was deuised afterwarde, is to be taken for false.

Thus saith S. Hierome, of the abuses of his tyme. Quae absque testimonio scripturarum, quasi tra­dita ab Apostolis asseruntur, percu­tiūtur malleo verbi Dei. The thigs that are fathered vppon the Apo­stles, & haue no testimonye of the Scriptures, are beaten down [...] the hammer of gods word.

Thus saith S. Ciprian, to stay the schismes and sectes of his tym. Hinc Schismata or [...]tur, quia caput non quaeritur, & ad fontem non re­ditur, & caelestis magistri praecepta non obseruantur. Hereof springe Schismes and diuisions, for y ^• we haue no recourse to the first insti­tutiō, and go not backward to the spring, and kepe not the cōmaun­ments of the heauenly maister.

Thus saith S. Augustin, to re­fourme [Page 110] y ^• errours of his tyme: N [...] audiatur, hoc ego dico, hoc tu dicis: sed haec dicit Dominꝰ. Ibi quaeratur Ecclesia. Let not these wordes be heard betwene vs, thus say I, or thus say ye, but thus saith y ^• Lord. And there let vs seke for y ^• churche of God.

Thus saith S. Ciprian. Si ad diu [...]nae traditionis caput, & originē reuertaris, cessat omnis error huma­nus. If ye wil retourne to y ^• head, and beginning of Gods ordinaū ­ce, all erroures of man wyll sone geue place.

Theodosius, the Emperour, pro­nounceth that they onely are to be taken for Catholik, y ^• folowe the doctrine that Peter deliuered at the first to the churche of Rome, and so examined he the matter by the originall.

Wherfore it standeth you nowe [Page] vpon, to proue that your pryuate masse, your communiō vnder one kynde, your prayers in an vnkno­wen tong, and your Supremacy, was deliuered at the fyrst by Pe­ter to the churche of Rome, or els to confesse, that these things be not Catholike.

To conclude, lyke as the errors of the clock be reueiled by the con­stant course of the sonne, euen so the errours of the churche are re­ueiled by the euerlastinge and in­fallible worde of God.

But to say, as sum of you haue sayd, the church is the only rule of our faith, & whatsoeuer God saith in is worde, she can neuer erre, is asmuche as if a man woulde saye: howe soeuer the sonne go, yet the clock must neds go true. For gods trueth is an euerlastinge trueth, & hangeth not vpon the pleasure or [Page] determinacion of men: but beynge once true, is true for euer. God o­pen the eies of our hartes, that we may se it, and reioyce in it, that the trueth may deliuer vs.

Thus much I thought it good to say to your letters, before my de parture hence, not for y ^• I knewe precisely they wer yours, but only because they bare your name. If ye thinke I haue bene sum what long, specially youre answeres being so short, ye shall remember, that a little poison requireth oft times a great deale of Triale.

Here once agayne I conclude as before, puttyng you in remem­braunce, that thys longe I haue desyred you to brynge forth sum sufficiente authoritye, for proufe of youre partye, and yet hetherto can obtein nothing. Which thinge I muste nedes nowe pronounce, [Page] symplye and playnlye, because it is true, wythout, if, or, and, ye do Conscientia imbecillitatis, because as ye knowe, there is nothynge to be brought. All these thynges considered, if I might be so bolde with you. I would say frend ly to you, as S. Augustin saith to S. Hierome, Arripe seueritatem Christianam, & cane palino­diam.