The Confutation by M. Hardinge.

Whereas these defenders take vpon them the name of the Churche of Englande, The de [...]enders likened to E­sopes Asse. settinge forth thereby a face of auctoritie, they do muche like the Asse that Esope telleth of, whiche, to make the beastes afrayed, had put on him a Lions skinne, and therewith ietted abroade terribly. For as the Lions skinne was but lapped about him, The vvonte of all Herctiques. Heretiques li­kened to Apes. The name and reputation of the Churche chalenged by Heretiques. and grewe not to his bodie: so they beinge in deede no liuely members nor parte of the Churche, couer them selues vnder the title and name of the Churche, the ra­ther to begyle the simple. And verely herein they folowe the wonte of all Heretikes. For neuer was there any secte of Heretikes hitherto, whiche hath not claimed to be accōpted and called the Church. For whiche cause of certaine auncient Fathers they haue bene likened to Apes, whose propertie is, though they be Apes, yet to counterfeit men, and to court to seeme men. Nouatianus, at saithe S. Cyprian, after the manner of Apes, woulde chalenge to him selfe the auctoritie of the Catholike Churche. And where as himselfe was not in the Churche, but contrariwise a rebell against the Churche, In epist, ad Iu­bainū de Haere­ticis baptizādis. tooke vpon him to affirme, that al other were Heretikes, and presumed tovpholde, the Churche was on his side. Irenaeus and Tertullian, who were before him, write, that Heretikes made so much adoo to perswade, De praescript. haeret. that the Churche was amonge them selues onely, that they feared not to call the right beleuinge and Catholike Churche, Hereticall and Schismaticall. S. Hilary declaringe how pati­ently he demeaned himselfe towardes the Arians his enemies, Contra Con­stantium. by whome he was bannisshed, writeth, that in fiue yeares space, whiles he liued in bannishment, he neuer spake nor wrote euill woorde a­gainst them, August. contra epist. Parmen. lib. 2. cap. 1. whiche falsely said them selues to be the Churche of Christe, and were the Synagoge of Antichrist. The Donatisles, against whome S. Augustine wrote muche, saide, that the Christianitie was quite loste and gone out of so many nations that be in the worlde, and remained onely in Aphrike, and that the Churche was onely there. Bernard. in cāt. Sermo. 66. In S. Bernardes time also the Heretikes who would be called Apostolikes, as they of our time call themselues Gospellers, saide that they were the Churche.

But what meane all Heretikes (maye we iudge) by couetinge so muche to be seene that whiche they are not? Apostolici. VVhat meane Heretiques by chalenginge vn­to them the name and esti­mation of the Churche. Forsooth they meane none other thinge, then their Father the Deuill meaneth, when he goeth about to begile man. For then what dothe he? vseth he not this policie, to chaunge his owggly hewe, and put himselfe in goodly shape of an Angell of light? For he is not vnwittinge, that if he shewed himselfe in his owne forme, suche as he is, that euery one woulde flie from him, and none lightly woulde be deceiued by him. Heretikes doo the like. Although they hate the Churche neuer so deadly, yet to haue the more oportunitie to hurte it, 2. Cor. 11. pretende themselues to be of the Churche. The estimation and auctoritie of the Church. Lucae. 10. Matth. 18. 1. Tim. 3. Ephes. 1. Oseae. 2. Psalm. 131. Gene. [...]. For they be not ignorant, howe greate the auctoritie of the Churche is. Of whose gouernours Christe saied, he that heareth you, heareth me: and he that despiseth you, despiseth me. And againe, Tell the Churche. They consider in what credite the Churche is with all Christen people: howe they staye themselues by it, as beinge the pillour and grounde of the truthe: howe they Loue her, euen as their common Mother, howe they honour it, as the Body and fulnes of Christe, as the spouse of Christe through Faithe, accordinge to that is written, I will despouse thee to me in faithe: As the true Syon, whiche our Lorde hath chosen to be his habitation, and his restinge place for euer: As the safe Arke to keepe vs from drowninge in the dangerous Seas of this worlde; out of whiche [Page 2] nolesse then once out of the Arke of Noe, is nosaluation. Againe they know the Churche must needes be greatly esteemed amonge all the godly, for the singular promiser Christe hath made to it, that he would be with it all daies to the ende of the worlde: That he would pray to his father for the holy Ghost to be giuen to it, the spirite of truthe to remaine withit for euer. But as Heretikes impugne the lawe by the woordes of the lawe, In comment. in epist, ad Tir. cap. 3. [...] S. Ambrose saithe so to ouer throwe the Churche, they pre­sume to take vnto them the name of the Churche. But what doo [...] when they are vrged and wroonge, when by force of argumentes they are straighted, and as it were driuen to the walle? when it is plainely proued to their face, whiche is sone done that they be not in, nor of the Churche, specially beinge of Heresie openly denounced, The vvonte of the Gospellers being excom­municate out of the Church. and by iust Excommunication cutte of from the Churche? In this case the practise of the Gospellers is, vtterly to sette the Churche, as taught, and with a hote raging spirite to defie it, and to saye, that themselues be the Catholike Churche, and that the Catholikes be the Papisticall Churche, the Churche of Antichrist, the where of [...] a deune of Theeues, and I can not tell what.

The Answeare by the Bishop of Sarisburie.

TO answeare M. Hardinge to euery parcel of his Booke, beinge so longe, it would be too tedious. Wherefore leauinge many his impertinent speaches, & other vnnecessarie and waste woordes, whiche sundrie his frendes thinke, he might better haue spared, I wil touche onely so mutche thereof, as shal beare somme shewe of substance, & may any way seeme woorthy to be answeared.

Firste touchynge the Churche of God, we beleue, and confesse al that M. Har­dinge hath here saide, 1. Timot. 3. Ephes. 1. or otherwise can be saide. It is the Piller of the Truthe, the Body, the Fulnesse, and Spouse of Christe. Al these woordes are vndoubtedly true and certaine. And therefore, M. Hardinge, you are the more blamewoorthy, that of the House of God, beyng so glorious, haue made a caue of Théeues: & haue tur­ned the beutie of Sion into the confusion of Babylon.

True it is, that Heretiques haue euermore apparelled them selues with the name of the Churche: as Antichriste also shal procure him selfe credite vnder the name of Christe. Thus did your Fathers, M. Harding, lōge agoe. They saide then, euen as you say now, Iohan. 8. Hierem. 7. Hierem. 18. We are the Children of Abraham: we are the Euheretours of Goddes promises: we haue the Temple of God, the Temple of God. The Lawe shal neuer passe frō the Prieste, nor counsel from the wise, nor the woorde from the prophete. Thus coutinuinge wilfully in the open breache of Goddes commaundement, neuerthelesse they chea­rished them selues then, as you doo nowe, onely with the bare title of the Churche: in whose name what so euer credit ye can any wise winne, your meaninge is, skil­fully to conueigh the same ouer wholy to the Churche of Rome: as if that Churche onely were the Churche of God, De Maior. & Obedi. vnam Sanctam. Dist. 22. Omnes. & without that there were no hope of Saluation: And therefore you defende, and holde for trueth, that your Churche hath authoritie aboue Goddes Woorde. And Pope Nicolas saithe, Who so denieth the Priuilege, and Supremacie of the See of Rome, hath renounced the Faithe, and is an Heretique. And thus, as Leo saithe, Leo Epist. 83. Ad Palaestinos. Ecclesiae nomine armamini, & contra Ecclesiam dimicatis: Ye arme your selues with the name of the Churche, and yet ye fight against the Churche. Likewise saithe S. Cyprian, Cypri. De Sim­plicitate praela. Diabolus excogitauit nouam fraudem, vt sub ipso nominis Christiani titulo fallat incautos: The Diuel hath diuised a new kinde of policie, vnder the very title of the name of Christe to deceiue the simple.

Nowe concerninge that hote raginge Sprite, wherewith M. Hardinge saithe, the Gospellers deste the Churche and set it at naught, verily I thinke it a harde matter for any Gospeller, be he neuer so hote, in suche kinde of eloquence to matche [Page 3] M. Hardinge. Neither yet maye he wel condemne al suche, as in the like cases haue bene hote, Esa [...]. 1. Matth. 3. Matthae. 23. Iohan. 8. & earnest. Esay the Prophete saithe, O ye Princes of Sodome, and ye people of Gomorrha: Iohn the Baptist saithe to the Scribes, and Phariseis, O ye Serpentes, ye generation of Vipers, and Adders: Christe saithe vnto them, Woe be vnto you, ye Scribes, and Phariseis, ye hypocrites: Ye are of your Father the Diuel. In these eram­ples wée sée, the Sprite of God can sometimes be hote and earnest against the de­ceiuers of the people, and the professed enimies of the Crosse of Christe. Neither did either Esay the Prophete, or Iohn the Baptiste, or Christe desie the Churche of God, and set it at naught, as M. Hardinge imagineth of vs: but rather by these seruent speaches vttered the vehement zele, and iuste griefe, they had conceiued against them, that vnder the name of the Churche abused Goddes people, and defaced the Churche.

For they are not al Heretiques, M. Hardinge, that this daie espie your grosse, and palpable errours, and mourne to God for reformation. S. Augustine saithe, Non debet Ouis pellem suam deponere, August. Lib. 2. De Sermon. Do­m [...]. in monte. qu [...]d Lupi aliquando se ea contegant: It is no reason, the Sheepe should therefore leaue of his fliese, for that he seeth the Woulfe sometime in the same apparel. Likewise, it is no reason, that wée should therfore geue ouer the right, and enheritance, wée haue in the Churche of God, for that you by intrusion, and vniuste meanes haue intituled your selues vnto the same. Iohan. 5. It behooueth vs ra­ther, to searche the Scriptures, as Christe hath aduised vs, & thereby to assure our selues of the Churche of God. For by this trial onely, and by none other, it maye be knowen. Ephe. 1. Therfore S. Paule calleth the Churche the Spouse of Christe, for that she ought in al thinges to geue eare to the voice of the Bridegrooms. Likewise he calleth the Churche the Piller of the Truthe, 1. Timo. 3. for that shée staieth her selfe onely by the Woorde of God: Without whiche Woorde y ^• Churche. were it neuer so bewtiful. should be no Churche. Irenae. Lib. 3. Cap. 11. The Ancient Father Irenaeus saithe, Columna, & firmamen­tum Ecclesiae est Euangelium, & Spritus vitae: The Piller and buttresse of the Churche is the Gospel, August. De vni­ta. Eccle. Cap. 3. and the Sprite of life. S. Augustine saithe, Sunt certi Libri Dominici, quo­rum authoritari vtrique consentimus: Ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam: ibi discutiamus causam nostram: There be certaine Bookes of our Lorde, vnto the authoritie whereof eche parte agreethe. There let vs seeke for the Churche: thereby sette vs examine and trie our maters. And againe, August. in eodē Cap. Nolo humanis documentis, sed Diuinis oraculis sanctam Ecclesiam demō ­strari: I wil, ye shewe me the holy Churche, not by decrees of menne, but by the woorde of God. Chrysostom. In Opere Imper­fecto, Homi. 49. Chrysostom. in eadem Homilia. Likewise saithe Chrysostome, Nullo modo cognoscitur, quae sit vera Ecclesia Christi, nisi tantummodo' per Scripturas: It can no waye be knowen, what is the Churche, but onely by the Scriptures. And againe, Christus mandat, vt volentes firmitatem acci­pere Verae Fidei, ad nullam rem fugiant, nisi ad Scripturas. Alioqui, si ad alia respexerint, Scandalizabuntur, & peribunt, non intelligentes, quae sit vera Ecclesia. Et per hoc inci­dent in Abominationē Desolationis, quae stat in Locis Sanctis Ecclesiae: Christe commaun­deth, that who so wil haue the assurance of True Faithe, seeke to nothinge els, but vnto the Scriptures. Otherwise, if they looke to any thinge els, they shalbe offended, and shal perishe, not vnderstanding, Daniel. 9. Matth. 24. whiche is the True Churche. And by meane here of they shal fal into the Abomination of Desolation, whiche standeth in the Holy Places of the Churche.

By these Ancient learned Fathers it is plaine, that the Churche of God is knowen by Godde [...] Woorde onely, & none otherwise. And therfore M. Hardinge, you so carefully flée the same, and condemne it for Heresie, and often burne it, leste thereby the deformities of youre Churche should be knowen. Iohan. 3. For the il dooer fleeth the light.

Nowe, where as it so wel liketh M. Hardinge to cal vs al Heretiques, and for his pleasures sake to liken vs to Apes, to Asses, and to the Diuel, notwithstanding we might safely returne the same whole, from whence it came, yet I thinke it not [Page 4] séemely, nor greatly to purpose to answeare al suche intemperate humours. Salo­mons aduise is good, Prouerb. 26. Answeare not folie with like folie. Notwithstandinge, the poore simple Asse, vnto whome wée are compared, was hable sometime to sée the Angel of God, Numer. 22. and to open his mouthe, and to speake, and to reproue the lewde at­tempte of Balaam the false Prophete. What so euer accoumpt it pleaseth M. Har­dinge to make of vs, by the grace of God wée are that wée are. Yf wée be hable to beare Christe with his Crosse, it is sufficient.

But who they be, that haue of longe time ietted so terribly vnder the Lions skinne, and onely with a painted Visarde, or emptie name of the Churche, haue fea­red al the cattel of the fielde, it is néedelesse to speake it: the worlde now seeth it: it can no longer be dissembled. Euen he, that lately bare him selfe as the Lion of the tribe of Iuda, & called him selfe Augustinus Steuchus, de Primatu. Kinge of Kinges, and See the fifthe parte hereof, the 6. Cap. and. 15. Diuision. said, he had power ouer the Angels of God, and amased the hartes of the simple with the terrour of his Lions pelte, onely for that he sate in Peters Chaire is now reuefled and better knowen, and estéemed as he is woorthy: he may nowe iette vp and downe with more ease, and lesse terrour. And why so? These poore Asses, whome M. Hardinge so muche disdeigneth, haue stripte of his counterfeite skinne, that made him so hardy, and haue caused him to appeare euen as he is.

M. Hardinge.

Who would not thinke, these defenders were true men, that in the beginninge of their Apo­logie speake so muche of the truthe? Yet who knoweth not, that oftentimes euil meaninge is hidde vnder good woordes? Who hath not hearde, that filthy queanes in time and place vse the honest talke of chaste matrones? The theefe commendeth iuste dealinges, and many times shewithe a stomake a­gainst false harlottes, 1. Corinth. 11. noman more. Amonge al none pretende truthe in wordes so muche as Heretiques. I feare me, saithe S. Paule, lest, as the Serpente beguiled Eue by his sutteltie, so your wittes be cor­rupted, and fallen away from that plainenes. Whiche is in Christe. The Apostle feared because of the craftie Iewes: who the rather to deceiue, mingled scriptures with their owne traditions, and truthe with fals head. So bringeth the Heretique his hearer to errour in faithe by coloure and pre­tence of truthe.

They are muche like to the Manicheis, De Vtilita. Cre­dendi ad Hono­ratū. Lib. 1. Ca. 1. Cōfess. li. 5. ca. 6. Matth. 7. who promised their hearers to discusse, and set forthe the truthe moste euidently vnto them, and to deliuer them from all maner of errours. By whiche faire promises S. Augustine was allured to be a diligent scholar of theirs for the space of nine yeres.

Christe gaue vs a lesson howe to discerne them. By their fruites ye shall knowe them, saithe he. And nowe to you Sirs. Euen in the beginninge, and as I may saie, in the foreheade of your Apo­logie, whiles I examine it diligently, I finde two foule faultes: the one in your Rhetorike, the other in your Logike. By whiche two faultes bothe the vns kil of your secretarie, and the weakenes of your mater maie be espied, as the Asse, I spake of right nowe, was by his two eares staringe out vn­der the Lions skinne. Your diuinitie is nothinge els in grosse, but a lumpe of lies, errours and Heresies.

First touching your Rhetorike, emongst many faultie proemes, one of the woorst is that, which is suche, as the aduersary may vse: whiche by them is called Exordium commune, that is to wite, suche a beginninge, as will serue the defendant, no lesse then the Plaintife, or contrariwise. Of that sorte is the beginninge of your Apologie. For declaringe at large, that truthe hath euer beene persecuted, what saithe it therein (the faultes amended) that we may not saie the same? That ship­maister is accoumpted very bad, who at the settinge out of the hauen driueth the Ship on the rockes.

Alleaginge Tertullian to healpe your cause, ye iniurie the Doctor by alteringe his wordes. Ye were not wise, by falsifiyng the first sentence, so muche to impaire your credite. Tertullian saith not, that truthe readily findeth enimies and sclaunderers amongst those, that knowe her not: but that truthe sone findeth enimies inter extraneos, amongst aliantes and strangers. Now the Christian Catholikes, whom ye call Papistes, be not in respecte of the truthe aliantes, and strangers. For your selues in sun­dry [Page 7] places of your Booke reproue them for resistinge the truthe whiche they knowe.

You haue geuen Tertullian a newe liuerie with your owne badge, and haue made exchaunge of Extraneos with Ignotos. Tertullian meante by aliantes no other then Infidels, and Paynimes: emonge whom Christen people then liued, and were daily persecuted. But after the Gospel had benne sounded abrode by the Apostles, and their successours through al the earth, after that the Emperours them selues, and all the people euery where had receiued the faithe, then was the truthe no more a wanderer, strangers or Pilgrime in the earthe.

The Bishop of Sarisburie.

Touchinge this comparison of whoores, and Théeues, and other like M. Har­dinges vngentle spéeches, as I haue before protested, I wil saye nothinge. He is very doumbe, and can speake but litle, that cannot speake it.

It is true, M. Hardinge, that you saie: Most Lyers oftentimes pretende most Truthe: as, if there were none other example, maye soone appeare by the whole te­nour and substance of your Bookes. The Diuel him selfe, the better to founde his Lyes, beareth him selfe oftentimes as the Angel of Truthe.

But the example, 2. Corinth. 11 that ye bringe of the Iewes, who, as you saie, the rather to deceiue, mingled Scripture with their owne Traditions, and Truthe with Falsehed, maketh moste plainely against your selfe. For you knowe, that this is the general compiainte of al the Godly this daye throughout the whole Churche of God, Matth. 15. Hierem. 2. that you haue mingled your Leade with the Lordes Goulde, and haue fil­led the Lordes Haruest ful of your Darnel: that you haue broken Goddes manifest cōmaundementes, to vpholde, & mainteine your owne Traditions: That you haue damned vp the Springes of the Water of Life, Hierem. 23. & haue broken vp puddles of your owne, 2. Corinth. 11. suche as be hable to holde no water: That for your dreames sake you haue caused the people to forgeat the name of God, & haue ledde them from that simpli­citie, that is in Christ Iesu. This is the mingling of Traditions with the Scrip­tures of God. I marueile, ye coulde so fréely vtter so muche, and so directly against your selfe.

As for the example of the Manicheis, it was vtterly impertinent, and from the purpose. Yet (Good Reader) that thou maiste vnderstande, what manner of Heretiques theise Manicheis were, and what errours they defended, first thy fore­bade lawful mariage, and allowed fornication, as M. Hardinges See what is answeared in the fourth pare herof, Ca. 1. Di. 1. Catholiques doo nowe. So saith S. Augustine of them, In quaest. in Nouum Testam. Quae. 72. Nuptiarum aditus intercludunt: & promiscu [...] conuenire hortantur. Leo Serm. 4. de Quadragesima. Secondly they receiued, & ministred the Holy Mysteries vn­der one kinde, contrary to the general order of the Catholique Churche. And so doeth M. Harding now. Aug. Epist. 19. Thirdly they yelded more credite to their owne diuises, then to Goddes Holy woorde. August. con. Faustum. Lib. 32. Cap. 19. And where as the Scriptures were plaine against them, they saide, euen as M. Hardinge Fol. 220. b. M. Hardinge saithe, the Scriptures were falsified, and ful of errours. Augu. de Mo­rib. Mantchae. Lib. 2. Cap. 15. Peregrinas & exquisitas f [...]u­ges multis fer­culis variatas. Fourthly they abstained from fleashe: and yet in their faste, they had & v­sed al manner delicate and strange fruites, with sundrie sortes of Spices in greate abundance: Aug. De Mo­rib. Manichae. Lib. 2. Cap. 13. They absteined from Wine, & yet vsed other liquours more deintie, and pretious, then any Wine, and thereof dranke while their bellies would holde. S. Augustines woordes thereof be these, Distenti, et crepantes, I leaue y ^e rest. Nowe iudge thou, gentle Reader, whether partie séemeth best to resemble the Manichets.

But whereas he thus vpbraideth vs, By their fruites ye shal knowe them. Verily whiles the Bishop of Rome euen in the Cittie of Rome mainteineth his houses of Ribaudrie and open Stewes, and M. Hardinge is ready, & hable by his eloquence and Diuinitie to defende the same, they haue no iuste cause, greatly to boaste them selues of their fruites. Howe be it, it maye be thought, Christ gaue vs this lesson, not thereby to trie the true Doctrine from the false, but a true professour from an [Page 8] Hypocrite. Otherwise our liues muste be tried by the Gospel, not the Gospel by our liues.

Nowe let vs examine that Horrible Heresie, that M. Hardinge hathe espied in the Rules of Rhetorique, by whiche, saithe he, the Secretaries vnskil is betraied, euen in the foreheade of our Booke. This entrie, saithe M. Hardinge, touchinge the complainte of Truthe, is so indifferent and common to bothe the parties, that either maie vse it, as wel as other. Whiche kinde of beginninge, saithe he, is called Exordium commune, and by the learned in Rhetorique is misliked as faultie. First of al, M. Hardinge, this séemeth to me a strange kinde of beginninge, in so déepe a disputation of Diuinitie, to make your first quarrel vnto Rhetorique. Bilike for lacke of better Entrie, ye thought it good to rushe in as you might. In déede either of vs maie séeme to stande in defence of Truthe. I denie it not. For as we haue the substance, and Truthe it selfe, so are you contente to claime the name. And so far forthe Truthe is common to vs bothe. Origen. contra Celsum, Li. 3. & Lib. 4. So the wicked Heathens Celsus, & Antiphon, notwithstandinge they published their Bookes against the Truthe, yet they entituled the same [...], the Booke of Truthe. S. Hierome saithe, Mendacium semper imitatur Veritatem. Falshed euermore beareth a shewe of Truthe. In this sorte Truthe is common to either partie. Origen in Mat­thae. Tract. 27. Origen saithe, Veritas Christus: si­mulata Veritas Antichristus. Christ is the Truth it selfe: Antichrist is the Truth countrefeite. Al this notwithstandinge, Christ refused not to vse the same kinde of entrie, that M. Hardinge so muche mistiketh: Iohan. 8. Roman. 1. but saide vnto the Phariseis, Ye seeke to min­der me, a man that haue tolde you the Truthe. And S. Paule to the Romaines saithe, They haue turned the Truthe of God into falshed. The like might I saie of Tertullian, Cyprian, and other Fathers. Yet, I trowe, M. Hardinge wil not therfore reproue either Christ, or Paule, or Tertullian, or Cyprian: nor saie, they vsed suche a Be­ginninge, as their aduersaries might haue vsed as wel as they, and had forgotten their Rules of Rhetorique.

Lothe I am so longe to stande in so light a mater. But I marueile mutche, that M. Harding being so great an Artificer in so smal cases, had no better eie to his owne Entrie. For if in writing the Defence of Truthe, it be a faulte in Rheto­rique to beginne with the il intreatinge, & cōplainte of Truthe, what then may we thinke it to be in the Defence of manifest & knowen errour, to beginne, as M. Har­dinge dooth, with Whoores, with Théeues, with Apes, with Asses, with Children of the Diuel, and with many other like vnséemely scoffes, and scornes? What Rhe­torique, what Eloquence, what Arte, what Skil is this? What Oratour euer vsed it? what Rhetorician, what Sophiste, Gréeke, or Latine euer taught it? Verily this was sometime accoūpted an old rule in Rhetorique, which it séemeth M. Har­dinge had quite forgotten: Cic. De Orator. Lib. 2. Scurrilis Oratori dicacitas magnoperé fugienda est. This Secretaries Beginninge, by M. Hardinges owne confession is sutche, as either partie indifferently might wel haue vsed. But M. Hardinges Beginninge is sutche, as neither partie with any modestie might haue vsed.

M. Hardinge also might haue remembred, that the skilful in Rhetorique, as they mislike Exordium Commune, Cicer. Lib. 1. De Inuentione: Ar­gumentum Cō ­mune vitiosum est. so they also mislike Commune Argumentum, that is, a Reason or Proufe so Common, that it may indifferently serue bothe parties. Whiche kinde of proufes if M. Hardinge woulde haue wéeded out of his Bookes, he should haue lefte very litle to trouble the Printer.

Where he saithe in grosse, that our Apologie is nothing els, but a lumpe of Lyes: the Truthe therof, I trust, shal appeare by this Treatie. In the meane sea­son, good Christian Reader, it may please thée to consider, that M. Hardinges mouth is no iuste measure in this behalfe. For some men thinke, it wil oftentimes vt­ter vntruthe without measure. But he saithe, we haue falsified Tertullians mea­ninge, placinge this woorde Ignotos, in stéede of Extraneos, and so at our pleasure [Page 9] makinge exchange of woordes, and geuinge the olde Father a newe Liuerie, and thereby empairinge our whole credite. A greate outcrie in so smal a matter. This greate exchange of woordes is nothinge so haynous as it is pretended. For bothe Ignotus is Extraneus, and Extraneus also in Tertullians meaninge is Ignotus. And M. Hardinge wel knoweth, that Tertullian speaketh namely, and onely of suche Aliens and Strangers, as knewe not the Truthe of God. Whether of these two woordes it shal like him to leaue vs, the sense is al one: it forceth nothing. If he wil néedes refuse this woorde, Ignotus, so y ^t he receiue the other woorde, Extraneus, and graunte, that he and his felowes be Strangers to Goddes Truthe, it shalbe sufficiente.

Howe be it he addeth farther, that they of his side are nowe no Strangers, but knowe God, as his deare frendes, and kinsfolke. Euen so saide the Phariseis of them selues, Iohan. 9. Nunquid & nos Coeci sumus? What be we blinde too? But Christe answeared them, Yf ye were blinde, then had ye no sinne. Now ye say, that ye see: There­for your sinne remaineth stil. Iohan. 9. Matthae. 8. And againe, I am come to Iudgemente into the worlde, that they that see, maie be made blinde. And againe, The Children of the kingdome shalbe thro­wen foorthe into vtter darknesse.

Yet further M. Hardinge saithe, After that the Gospel had benne sounded abroade by the Apostles, and theire Successours, then was the Truthe nomore a Stranger, or a Pilgrime in Earth. Whereby he woulde closely conclude, that his Churche of Rome can neuer erre. But this is too vaine a Paradise. Daniel. 8. Chrysost. in opere Imperfecto, Ho­mi. 49. August. De C [...] ­uita. Dei, Li. 18. Cap. 51. De Ciuit. Li. 19. Cap. 27. For Daniel speakinge of the later daies saithe, Veritus prosternetur in [...]erra, The Truthe shal be ouerthrowen in the Earthe. Chrysostome saithe, Abornihatio Desolationis stabit in Sanctis Locis Ecclesiae, The Abomination of de­solation shal stande in the Holy places of the Churche. S. Augustine saithe, Vsque ad hu­ius s [...]eculi finem, inter persecutiones mundi, & consolationes Dei peregtinando procurrit Ecclesia: Vntil the worldes ende, the Churche goeth foreward, as it were in a Pilgrimage, by­tweene the persecutions of the worlde, and the comfortes of God. And againe, Tota Ciuitas Dei peregrinatur in terris: The whole Cittie of God (which is the Churche) is a Stranger, and a Pilgrime in the Earthe. Verily as longe as Satan the Prince of darkenesse is Prince of this world, so longe the Truthe of God passeth in this world as a Stran­ger: and beinge emonge Strangers, as Tertullian saithe, easily findeth enimies, & is it intreated. Tertullian in Apologetico. He saithe further, Caeterum vnum hoc gestit, ne ignorata damnetur: This onely thinge Truthe desireth, that noman condemne her, before he knowe her.

M. Hardinge.

O blessed folowers of the Patriarkes, Prophetes, Apostles, Martires, and Christe him selfe, that suffer so much persecution in your innocencie; hauinge deserued nothinge at all, and onely bicause ye acknowledge, and teache the Truthe. But Sirs, by your leaue, how foloweth this (VVherfore) of your former common place so largely treated? This is your fowle faulte, whiche you make in your Lo­gike. Howe proue ye this argument: The Truthe is persecuted, and the professours of the Truthe haue euer bene euill treated: wherefore wee ought to beare it quietly beinge likewise handled for the same cause &c. If you make this argument, whiche ye seeme priuely to make, leauinge out the [Page 10] Minor, The professours of the Truthe be persecuted for the Truthes sake: wee be professours of the Truthe: Therefore we suffer persecution for the Truthes sake: Yf ye saye thus, we embarre you from your Conclusion by deniynge your Minor, whiche ye can neuer proue.

And if ye reason thus, whiche waye also ye seeme to vse: The professours of the Truthe suffer per­secution: VVee suffer persecution: Ergo, wee are professours of the Truthe: VVe graunt your Mi­nor is true: but your argument is naught. So might all Heretikes saye, and by that argument proue them selues right beleuers. VVherefore vntil ye proue, that ye succede the Patriarkes, Prophetes, Apostles, Martyrs, and Christe himselfe in professinge the Truthe, boast not, as ye doo, of your Fore­fathers. For not they whome ye name in your Proeme, but Hus, VViklese, Peter Bruse, Be­rengarius, VValdenses, Albingenses, Donatistes, Aë [...]ians, Manichees, and suche the like He­retikes, iustly condemned of the Churche, were your Forefathers.

The B. of Sarisburie.

M. Hardinge pretendeth Logique, and endeth in Sophistrie. The argument, wée make, wherewith he playeth so pleasantly, is founded vpon these woordes of Christe: Matth. 10. Iohan. 15. The Scholare is not aboue his Maister, nor the Seruant aboue his Lorde: If they haue persecuted me, they wil persecute you. Al these thinges shal they doo vnto you for my names sake, bicause they knowe neither my Father, nor me. The Minor is this, wée suc­cede the Apostles, and Martyrs, and are the professours of the Truthe. Whiche Minor, by M. Hardinges iudgement, we can neuer proue. But Goddes holy name be blessed for euer: The greatest parte, of Christendome this daye seeth, this Minor is true, and that bothe we are the professours of Goddes knowen Truthe, and you the professours of manifest salsehed. Touchinge the Donatistes, and Manichees, and al other like condemned Heretiques, and Heresies, we vtterly abhorre them, euen as the gates of Hel. As for Iohn Wicklese, Iohn Husse, Valdo, and the reste, for ought wée knowe, &, I beleue, settinge malice aside, for ought you know, they were godly menne. Alphonsus De Haeresibus. Theire greatest Heresie was this, that they complained of the dissolute, and vitious liues of the Cleregie, of woorshippinge of Images, offeined Miracles, of the tyrānical pride of the Pope, of Monkes, Freeres, Partans, Pilgrimages, Bartholomae. A­bramus in Con­cil. Ferrarien. and Purgatorie, and other like deceiuinge, and mockinge of the peo­ple, and that they wisshed a reformation of the Churche. Wée succede not them, nor beare theire names. Wée succede him, whose woorde wée professe: whose woorde, M. Hardinge, they of your side haue so often condemned, and vnder a colour of false Translation haue burnte for Heresie.

Hereof we fourme our argument in this sorte: Christe the Sonne of God was persecuted, & carried as a Lauuye vnto the Slauterhouse for speakyng the Truthe: Therefore it behooueth vs for the same cause sufferinge the like, to take it with pa­tieuce. So saithe S. Peter, 1. Peter. 2. Christe died for vs, leauing vs an example, that we should folowe his steppes. If wee suffer patiently for dooinge wel, this thinge is thankes woorthy before God. So the holy Father and Martyr Ignatius comforted him selfe, when he was in the middes of his tormentes: Euseb. Lib. 3. Cap. 36. Tertull. De Fu­ga in persecu­tione. Matth. 5. lā incipio esse Discipulus Christi Now beginne I to be Christes. Disciple. So Tertullian, Quid debeo, nisi sanguinem, quem pro me fudit Filius Dei? What thinge owe I els, but the Bloude, whiche the Sonne of God hath shedde for me? The like comforte in like cases Christe geueth to his Disciples, Reioice ye, (saithe he) and he gladde, for your rewarde is greate in Heauen. For thus haue they persecuted the Prophetes, that were before you.

M. Hardinge.

Yf ye haue forsaken the Faithe, Faithe in Britaine. ye were Baptized in, if ye be gonne from the faithe, whiche S. E­leutherius Pope and Martyr the first Apostle of Britayne preached in this lande, Vntruthe. by Damianus and Fu­gatius within little more then one hundred yeres after Christes death, Damianus and Fugatius first Apostles of the Britons. Augustinus and Melitus of the Englishe. if ye refuse the Faithe which Gregorie the Greate that holy Pope, caused to be Preached to our Auncestours the Englishe nation by Augustinus, Melitus, and other holy Priestes, and haue thereby dissolued the vnitie of the Catholike Churche, and leaue not to maineteine the doctrine, whereby the same vnitie is dissolued: all this pre­supposed. Wee see not but that this crie made vpon you is true: For then are ye Heretikes in deede.

The B. of Sarisburie.

As wel this reporte of Eleutherius, as also the other noted in the margin of Augustine, that the one was the first Apostle of the Britannes, the other of the En­glishe, are both vntrue. For it is certaine, that the Churche of Britannie, nowe called England, receiued not first the faithe from Rome. Lucius the Kinge of this Countrie had receiued the Gospel of Christ, and was Baptized welneare one hun­dred and fiftie yeres before the Emperoure Constantine: and the same Constantine the first Christened Emperoure was borne in this Ilande, And notwithstanding Eleutherius the Bishop of Rome, at the Kinges special request, sent hither Fuga­tius, and Damianus, to enforme the Bishopes and Cleregie, and to bringe thinges to better order, Gildas. Polydor [...]. Theodoret. De Curandis Grae­corū affectibus. Niceph. li. 2. c. 4. Galfrid. Lib. 8. Cap. 4. yet vndoubtedly the Churche & Faithe of Christ had benne planted here a longe while before they came, eyther by Iosephe of Arimathaea: either (as Theodoretus writeth) by S. Paule the Apostle passinge this waye into Spaine: or (as Nicephorus saithe) by Simon Zel [...]tes: or by the Gréekes: or by some others.

As for our Augustine of Englande, for it was not S. Augustine the learned Doctour, neither was he so godly a man, as M. Hardinge maketh him: for as Gal­fridus writeth of him, he was cruel, disoaineful, prowde, and arrogant, and no way méete to be called an Apostle. Neither was he the first planter of the Faithe in Englande. For the Faithe was planted here many hundred yeres before his comminge. An. Do. 210. Tertullian saithe of his time, Tertull. contra Iudaeos. Britannorum inaccessa Romanis loca sub­duntur Christo: The countries of Britannie, whiche the Romaines coulde neuer atteine vnto, Anno. 212. are now subiecte to Christe. Origen saithe of his time, Origen. in Eze­chiel. Homi. 4. Athanas. Apo­logia Secunda. Terra Britanniae con­sensit in Religionem Christi: The Lande of Britannie hath agreed to Christes Religion. Athanasius of his time saithe, Anno. 334. Episcopi Aphricae vniuersae, Siciliae, Sardiniae, Hispa­niarum, Galliarum, Britanniarum sese ad Concilium contulerunt: The Bishoppes of al Aphrica, Sicilia, Sardinia, Spaine, Fraunce, and Britannie came thither to the Councel, (hol­den at Sardica.) Anno 330. Constantinus the Emperour in his time maketh mention of the Christian Churches in Britannie. Theodoret. Hist. Eccl. Li. 1. Ca. 10. Hilarius De Synodis. Chrysost. in Ho­milia, Quòd Christus sit Deus Theodoret. Hist. Eccl. Li. 4. Ca. 3. S. Hilarie in his time intituled his letter in this wise: Anno 360. Clericis Tololanis, & Prouinciarum Britannicarum Episcopis: To the Clere­gie of Tolouse, Anno 400. and to the Bishoppes of Britannie. Chrysostome of his time saithe, Et Iusulae Britannicae extra hoc mare sitae, & in ipso Oceano positae senserūt virtutem Ver­bi Dei: The Ilandes of Britannie beinge in the very Ocean, far out of this our Sea, haue felt the power of Goddes Woorde. Anno 367. Theodoretus of the time of the Emperour Iouinian saithe thus, Huic Fidei consenserunt omnes Ecclesiae, quae (que) in Hispania sunt, quae (que) in Britannia: To this Faith haue agreed al the Churches, bothe of Spaine, and of Britannie. These recordes may séeme sufficient, if it please M. Hardinge to receiue them. And al, and euery of these liued sundrie hundred yéeres before the arriual of Melitus, and Augustine.

Yf any man shal happen to replie, The Faithe was then vtterly rooted out by the inua­sion of the Englishe men beinge Heathens, Art. 3. Diuis. 24. Beda, li. 1. ca. 26. that mater is already answeared in my Former Replie to M. Hardinge. Certainely Beda saithe, The Quéene of Englande was [Page 12] then Christened, Beda. li. 2. Cap. 2. and that there were then in this Realme seuen Bishoppes, and one Archebishop, with other moe greate learned Christian menne.

As touchinge this Augustine, wée are not bounde to al his dooinges. Although M. Hardinge allowe him Apostolike authoritie, yet al his heastes were not Gospel. The Churche in his time was growen to muche corruption, as it may many waies appeare by sundrie places of S. Gregorie. Beda. li. 2. Ca. 26. Verily Beda saithe, The Bishoppes, and learned Christians of this Countrie vtterly refused to receiue this newe Apo­stle with his Religion. And yet were they right Catholique, and godly menne. And Galfridus saithe, Galfridus. lib. 8. Cap. 4. Erant septem Episcopatus, & Archiepiscopatus Religiosiscionis Praesulibus muniti, & Abbatiae complures, in quib. grex Domini rectum ordinem tenebat: There were then in Englande seuen Bishoprikes, and one Archebishoprike possessed with very godly Prelates, and many Abbies, in whiche the Lordes flocke helde the right Religion.

M. Hardinge.

Sith that ye raise vp againe the heresie of Aerius in deniynge praier for the dead, who was for the same accōpted an Heretike aboue a leuen hundred yeres past: sith that ye raise vp the Heresie of Manichaeus that liued before him, That these De­fenders be re­nevvers of olde Heresies in taking awaire free will [...] sith that ye raise vp the Heresie of Vigilantius, in refusinge to praie to Sainctes, and to honour their holy Reliques, and to keepe lightes in Churches to the honour of God, and many other Heresies beside of olde time condenmed: sith that ye raise vp the Heresie of Berengarius in deniyng the presence of Christes very Body in the bles­sed Sacrament of the Aultar: and sith that ye adde to those mo Heresies of your owne, as the ap­pointing of the supreme Pastorship or regiment of the Churche in all thinges and causes spiritual to a laye Magistrate, the deniynge of the external Sacrifice of the Churche, whiche wee cal the Masse, the maintenance of the breache of Vowes of Pouertie, Chastitie, and Obedience: Againe sithe that your Diuision into sundrie sectes can neither be dissembled nor defended, whereof we shal speake hereafter more largely: al these thinges beside sundrie other of like enormitic beinge true, as they be most true, this other crie made vpon you is true.

The B. of Sarisburie.

This heape is greate in shewe, and light in substance. Touching Berenga­rius, gentle Reader, Arti. 5. Diuis. 6. for shortnesse sake I must referre thée to my Former Replie to M. Hardinge. Aerius the Arian Heretique, the Breache of Vowes, the Dis­sension of Iudgementes in Religion, shalbe answeared (God willinge) hereaf­ter, eche mater seuerally in his place.

Wee flatter not our Prince with any newe imagined extraordinarie power, but onely geue him that Prerogatiue & Chieftie, that euermore hath benne dewe vnto him by the ordinance, Esai. 49. and Woorde of God: that is to say, to be the Nurce of Goddes Religion: to make Lawes for the Churche: to heare and take vp cases, and questions of the Faithe, if he be hable: or otherwise to commit them ouer by his authoritie vnto the learned: to commaunde the Bishoppes, and Priestes to doo their dewties, and to punishe sutche as be offenders. August. contra Cresc. li. 3. ca. 71. Thus the godly Empe­roure Constantinus sate in Iudgement in a cause Ecclesiastical, bitwéene Caecili­anus, and Donatus à Casis Nigris, and in the ende him selfe pronounced sentence. Greater authoritie then Constantinus the Emperoure had, and vsed, our Princes [Page 13] require none. This, I truste, hitherto is no greate Heresie.

S. Hierome reproued Vigilantius, for that he founde faulte with the Vigils or night wakes, that then were vsed, with Praieing to Sainctes, with Woor­shippinge of Reliques, with Lightes, and other suche like weighty maters. Tou­chinge which whole controuersie, Erasm. in prae­fatio. in Episto­lam Hieronymi contra Vigilan. Erasmus geueth this iudgement: in hunc ita con­uitijs debacchatur Hieronymus, vt plusculum in co modestiae cogar desiderare. Vtinam argumentis tantùm egisset, et à conuitijs temperasset: Against this Vigilantius S. Hierome so raileth, that I wante in him some peece of sobrietie. I woulde rather, he had dealte with argumentes, and had spared his railinge.

Of praier to Sainctes, & Lightes, we shal speake hereafter. Night wakes after­ward were condemned, as I remembre, in y ^e Councel of Carthage, & so Sentence ge­uen by the Churche with this greate Heretique Vigilantius against S. Hierome. Verily y ^e Fathers in a former Councel holden at Eliberis in Spaine decréed thus: Concil. Eliberi. Cap. 35. Placuit prohiberi ne foeminae in coemiterio peruigilent: quia saepé sub obtentu orationis scelera latenter committunt. It liketh vs that women be forbidden to watche at the places of burial: For often vnder pretense of prayer, priuily they commit wickednesse. To be shorte, if Vigilantius were an Heretique for reprouinge of Night Watches, why hath the Churche of Rome so longe sithence condemned & abolished the same watches, agreeably to Vigilantius, and contrarie to the Iudgement of S Hierome?

Reliques were subiecte to muche villanie, and are welneare worne out of them selfe.

The Manicheis emonge other their fantastical errours were wonte to say, y ^e the body of Man was made, August De con­tinent. Ca. 9. August. contra duas Epist. pela­gian Li. 2. ca. 2. August ad Quod vult deū. not by God, but by the Angels of the Diuel, whiche they called Gentem tenebratum: and that in Man there be two soules of contrarie natures: the one of the substance of God: the other of the substance of the Diuel: and that either soule contineweth stil as it is, and cannot alter: That is to say, that the good soule can neuer be il: and that the il soule can neuer be good. And in this sense they saide, that Man hath no Frée wil.

Al these, and other like errours wée abhorre and Detest, as frantique furies. Wée saie, that the Soule of Man is not the substance, but the Creature of God: an that it maie be changed from good to il: from il to good: that Dauid maie fal: that Paule maie rise: that God geueth vs a newe hart, and a newe Spirite within our breastes.

But as touchinge the fréedome of wil, and power of our selues, we saie with S. Augustine, August Deverb. Apostoli, Sermo 11. O malum Liberum Arbitrium sine Deo: O euil is Free Wil without God. Againe, Libero Arbitrio malè vtens homo. & se perdidit, & Arbitrium: Man misusinge his Free Wil, spilte both him selfe, and his wil. Againe, Quid tantùm de Naturae postibi­litate praesumitur? Augusti. in En­chiridio, ca. 30. Augusti. De Na­tura & Gratia Cap 53. Vulnerata, saucia, vexata, perdita est. Vera confessione, non falsa de­fensione opus habet: What doo men so mutche presume of the possibilitie of Nature? It is woounded, it is mangled, it is troubled, it is loste. It behoueth vs rather truely to confesse it, then folsly to defende it. Againe, Liberum Arbitrium captiuatum, non nisi ad pecca­tum valet. Free wil once made thralle, auaileth now nothinge but to sinne. Agayne, Quòd bené viuimus, Augusti ad Boni faci. Li. 3. ca. 8. Augusti. De ver­bis Aposto. Ser­mo. 10. quòd rectè intelligimus, Deo debemus. Nostrum nihil est, nisi pec­catum, quod habemus: That wee liue wel, that wee vnderstande aright, wee haue it of God. Of our selues wee haue nothinge, but onely sinne, that is within vs.

The better to cleare this whole case, I thought it good to vse the moe woordes. Thus may wée learne to knowe our selues, and humbly to confesse our imperfe­ction, and to geue the whole glorie vnto God.

Therefore to conclude, Augusti. De Bo­no perseueran. Cap. 13. S. Augustine saithe, Nos volumus: Sed Deus in nobis operatur velle. Nos operamur: Sed Deus in nobis operatur & operari pro bona sua volūta­te. Hoc nobis expedit & credere, & dicere. Hoc est pium: hoc est verum: vt sit humilis, & [Page 14] submissa Confessio, Cap. 6. & detur totum Deo. Tutiores viuimus, si totum Deo damus: non autem nos illi ex parte, & nobis ex parte committimus. Wee wil: but it is God, that woorketh in vs to wil. VVee woorke: but it is God that woorketh in vs to woorke, accor­dinge to his good pleasure. This is behooueful for vs bothe to beleeue, and to Speake: This is a Godly, this is a True Doctrine, that our Confession maye be humble, and lowly, and that God maye haue the whole. VVee liue in more safetie, if wee geue al vnto God, rather then if wee commit our selues partely to our selues, and partely to him.

M. Hardinge.

VVhat ye bee, God knoweth, and your owne Conscience shoulde knowe. Our Lorde amende bothe you and vs. But to saye some what to that your giltie minde imagineth the VVorlde to reporte of you, if they which take away and abhorre the external Sacrifice, wherein Christe accordinge to his owne institution, Lucae. 2 [...]. 1. Cor. 11. is offered to his Father, make no warre against God: if they whiche make Christe a Mi­nister of Shadowes, Signes, Tokens, and Figures: they, whiche feare not to breake their solemne Vowes made to God, and defende the same as wel done: they, whiche assure them selues of their Saluation, and therefore liue dissolutely without due care and feare of God: If (I saye) they be not cursed Crea­tures, and like Gyantes that warre against God, then are ye cleare of this charge.

The B. of Sarisburie.

To answeare Ifs with Ifs, and Woordes with Woordes, it were greate folie. Therefore leauinge the answeare of Vowes, & assurance of Saluation to theire se­ueral places, first wee denie not y ^e Sacrifice of Christe. Christe onely vpon his Crosse is our whole and onely Sacrifice for sinne, & biside him wée haue none other. How be it, In the. 17. Arti. I haue spoken hereof more at large in my Former Replie to M. Hardinge.

Neither make wée Christe, as it liketh M. Hardinge to saye, a Minister of Signes & Figures. Iohan. 1. Wée knowe, that Christe is the Fulfillinge & Perfection of the Lawe, and that Grace, and Truthe are wrought by him. Yet neuerthelesse wée saye, that the Sacramentes of the Newe Testamente are Signes, and Figures. The olde Father Tertullian expoundeth Christes Woordes in this sorte, Hoc est Corpus meum, Tertull. contra Mar [...]ion Lib 4. Augustin. in Psalm. 3. Augustin. contra A [...]mantum, Cap. 12. Hoc est, Figura Corporis mei: This is my Body, that is to saye, This is a Fi­gure of my Body. S. Augustine saithe, Christus adhibuit Iudam ad conuiuium, in quo Corporis & Sanguinis sui Figuram Discipulis suis commendauit, & tradidit: Christe receiue Iudas vnto his Banket, whereat he deliuered to his Disciples the Figure of his Body, and Bloude. And againe, Non dubitauit Dominus dicere, Hoc est Corpus meum, cùm daret Signum Corporis sui: Christe doubted not to saye, This is my Body, whereas he gaue a Token of his Body.

I leaue other Holy Fathers of like Woordes and sense welneare innumerable. Yet were they neither Giantes, nor Rebelles against God, nor accursed Creatures. If they had neuer vsed these Woordes, nor called the Sacramente the Figure, or Token of Christes Body, then might M. Hardinge haue [...]enne bolde to saye some­what, and to leade awate his Reader with a Tragical exclamation of Signes, and Figures. How be it, he him selfe, as I haue shewed in my Former Answeare, in the exposition of these woordes of Christe, Arti [...]ul. 12. Diuision. 16. This is my Body, and other like Phrases incident vnto the same, to auoide one vsual and common Figure, is forc [...]d to shifte him selfe into thirtie other vnnecessarie & childishe Figures: as knowinge that not so mutche as his open Untruthes can wel stande without Figures.

M. Hardinge.

Ye teache men to Faste for policie, Faste for Poli­cie. Fol. 2. Pa. 2. not for Religion. And by your Statute of Wednesdaies faste, who so euer shal write or saye that forebearinge of Fleas he is a Seruice of God, otherwise then as other polytike lawes are, they shal be punished as spreaders of false Newes are and ought to be. VVhen ye Preache onely Faithe not to remoue the merite of woorkes before Baptisme, Epist. ad Roma. Bridle geuen to levvdnes by this nevve Gospell. as S. Paule meante it, but also after Baptisme: VVhen ye take awaye the Sacrament of confession and Absolution, geue ye not the brydel to al naughtinesse? Do not some of your Gospelling maides of London refuse to serue, ex­cept they maye haue libertie to heare a Sermon before noone, and a playe at after noone?

The B. of Sarisburie.

I thought, M. Hardinge had knowen a difference bitwéene Fastinge, and Absti­nence, or choise of meates. True Fastinge is a Religiouse woorke, ordeined to te­stifie our humilitie, & to make the Fleashe the more obedient vnto the Sprite, that wée maye be the quicker to Praier, & to al good Woorkes. But Abstinence from this or that meate with opinion of Holinesse, Superstitious it maye easily make a man, but Holy it can not. 1. Corinth. 14. Hebrae. 13. S. Paule saithe, Cibus nos non commendat Deo: it is not meate that maketh vs acceptable vnto God. Againe, It is good to confirme the harte with Grace, and not with meates: Wherein they that haue walked, haue founde no profite. The meate serueth for the Belly, 1. Corinth. 6. Roman. 14. Matth. 15. and the Belly for the meate: The Lorde wil destroye them bothe. And againe, The Kingedome of God is not Meate, and Drinke. Likewise Christe saithe, The thinge that entreth into the mouthe, defileth not the man.

Hereby it is easie to see, that Fastinge is one thinge, & Abstinence from Fleashe is an other. The Nazareis in the old Testamente absteined not from Fleashe, & yet they Fasted. 3. Regum. 17. Matthae. 3. Socrae. li. 5. ca. 22. Cassidor. Lib. 9. Cap. 38. Elias was sedde with Fleashe, Iohn the Baptiste eate the Fleash of Locustes: & yet they both Fasted. Socrates saithe, That many Christians in the Lente season did eate Fishe & Byrdes: many absteined vntil thrée of the clocke in the after noone, & then receiued al kindes of meate, either Fishe, or Fleashe, with­out difference. Likewise Epiphanius saithe, Some eate al kindes of Birdes, or Fowle, absteininge onely frō the Fleashe of fower footed beastes, Epipha. De Hae­res. Lib. 3. In O­ratione de Fide Catholica: [...]. And yet they kepte their Lente truely, & fasted as wel as any others. Wherfore Abstinence from any one certaine kinde of meate is not of it self a woorke of Religion to please God, but onely a mere positiue Policie Augustin. S. Augustine saithe, Non quaeto quo Vescaris, sed quo Delecteris: I demounde not, what thou Eatest, but wherein thou haste Pleasure Hieronym. in Ioelem. Cap. 1. And S. Hierome saithe of the Manicheis, Ieiunant illi quidem: Sed illorum leiunium est saturitate deterius. They Foste in deede: but theire Fastinge is woorse, then if they filled theire Bellies.

Of onely Faithe, and Confession, wée shal speake hereafter.

M. Hardinge.

Can Monarkes and Princes seeme to be mainteined by your sectes. who teache the people to rebel for pretensed Religion? Allow ye the Monarchie of the Romaine Empire, Who so muche complaine in your Apologie, that the Pope made Charlemaigne Emperour of the VVeste? Hathe the Queene of Scot­land [Page 16] cause to praise the procedinges of your Gospel, through occasion whereof she ruleth not her sub­iectes, but is rather ruled of her subiectes?

The B. of Sarisburie.

Here is an other greate Vntruthe emonge the reste. For M. Hardinge right wel knoweth, that wée neuer armed the people, nor taught them to rebel for Reli­gion against the Prince. If any thinge haue at any time happened otherwise, it was either some wilful rage, or some fatal furie: It was not our Counsel: it was not our Doctrine. Wée teache the people, as S. Paule doothe, to be subiecte to the higher powers, Roman. 13. Matth. 26. not onely for feare, but also for conscience. Wée teache them, that who so striketh with the Swerde by Priuate authoritie, shal perish with y ^e Swerd. Yf the Prince happen to be wicked, or cruel, or burthenous, wée teache them to saye, with S. Ambrose, Arma nostra sunt Preces, & Lachrymae: Teares, and Praiers be our Weapons. Ambrosius. Notwithstandinge, what Rebellion hathe benne moued in En­glande by some of your side, in the late Raignes of Kinge Henrie the eight, & Kinge Edward the sixte in defence of your Religion, ye maie wel remember.

The displacinge of the Emperour of Constantinople, and the placinge of Charlemaigne the Frenche Kinge, serueth M. Hardinge to smal purpose: on­lesse it be to disclose the Popes conspiracie against the Emperour. Certainely, as any man maye sensibly see, it was the aduauncinge of the Pope, the strengthe­ninge of the Saracenes, and after of the Turkes, and the Diuision, and dissolution of the state of Christendome. Platina in A­driano. 2. Platyna saithe, Ab hoc tempore perijt & potestas Im­peratorum, & virtus Pontificum: After this time the power of the Emperours, and the Holinesse of the Popes were bothe loste.

Touchinge the Quéene of Scotland, I wil saye nothinge: The Kingedomes, and states of the Worlde haue sundrie agreementes, and compositions. The No­bles, and Commons there neither drewe the Swerde, nor attempted force against the Prince. They sought onely the continuance of Goddes vndoubted Truthe, and the Defence of theire owne liues against your Barbarous & cruel inuasions. They remembred, At Vassei, An­no. 1562. bisides al other warninges, your late dealinge at Vassei, where as great numbers of theire Brethren were suddainely murthered, beinge togeather at theire Praiers in the Churche, & holdinge vp theire Innocente handes to Heauen, & callinge vpon the name of God. Achab saide sometime to the Prophete Elia, Thou arte he, 3. Regum. 17. that troublest the whole Countrie of Israel. But Elias made him answeare, It is not I, that trouble the Countrie: It is thou, and thy Fathers house, whiche houe foresaken the commeundementes of the Lorde, and houe folowed after Baalim.

The Subiecte is bounde to obey his Prince: how be it not in al thinges with­out exception: but so far as Goddes glorie is not touched. These Nobles had lear­ned of S. Peter, Actor 5. Psal. 118. Psalm. 146. It is better to obey God, then man: And of the Prophete Dauid, Better it is to truste to God, then to truste in Princes. For they are mortal, and shal die: theire Sprite shalbe taken from them, & then shal they returne into the Earthe. Neither maye a godly Prince take it as any dishonour to his estate, to sée God obeied before him. Leo. De Passione Domi. Serm. 10. For he is not God, but the Minister of God. Leo saithe, Christus quae Dei sunt, Deo, quae Caesaris sunt, Caesari reddenda constituit, &c. Hoc est verè nō impugnare Caesarem, sed iuuare: Christe commaunded, that is dewe vnto God, to b [...]euen to God: that is dewe vnto Caesor, to be geuen to Caesar. Verily this is not to rebel against, but to helpe Caesar. Likewise S. Ambrose, beinge him selfe in manner a Capitaine vnto the people in Goddes quarrel against Valentinian the Emperour: Ambros. Lib. 5. Epist 33. Quid praesentius dici potuit à Christianis viris, quàm id, quod hodie in nobis Spiritus Sanctus Ioquutus est? Rogamus, Auguste, non pugnamus: Non timemus, sed Rogamus: What could be more boldly spokē of Christian menne, then that the holy Ghoste spake in you this daye? (Thus ye saide) Wee be­seeche thee, Noble Emperour, wee fight not. Wèe feare thee not, but wee beseeche thee.

[Page 17] To conclude, the Quéene of Scotlande is stil in quiet possession of her estate: & is obeied of her Subiectes, so far as is conuenient for godly people to obeye their Prince.

M. Hardinge.

Before Luthers time al Christen people came togeather peaceably into one Churche, vnder one Heade, as Shepe into one folde vnder one Shepeherd, and so liued Vnanimes in domo, in one accorde. But af­ter that Sathā, Diuision and Schismefolovved vpon Luthers Preachinge. 1. Iohan. 2. who at the beginninge begyled Eue, had persuaded some to taste of the poisoned apple of Luthers Newe Doctrine: they went out frō vs, who were not of vs (for if they had ben of vs, they had remained with vs) forsooke the Catholike Churche of Christ, sorted them selues into Synagoges of An­tichriste, withdrewe them selues from obedience to warde theire Pastor and Iudge, and sundred them selues into diuerse Sectes. This schisme, diuision, and conspiracie against the Head Shepherd, is nolesse wicked, Numer. 6. then that of Dathan and Abiron against Moyses and Aaron was. For as God commaunded Moyses and Aaron to be obeyed of the children of Israel, Greate Vn­truthes. so Christe cōmaunded al his Shepe to obeye and heare the voice of him, Iohan. 21. whom in Peter, and succedinge Peter, he made Shepeherd ouer his whole stocke.

The B. of Sarisburie.

Before the time that Goddes Holy wil was, that Doctour Luther should begin to publishe the Gospel of Christe, there was a general quietnesse: I graunte: sutche as is in the night season, when folke be asleape. Yet, I thinke, to continewe sutche quietnesse, no wise man wil wish to sleepe stil.

Ye saye, They haue forsaken the Catholique Churche: They went from vs. who were not of vs. Nay rather, M. Hardinge, wée are returned to y ^e Catholique Churche of Christe, & haue forsaken you, bicause you haue manifestly foresaken the wayes of God. But what if a man would alitle put you frendely in remēbrance? Sir, it is not so longe sithence your selfe were out of your owne Catholique Churche: and so were gonne out from your selfe: bicause your selfe were not of your selfe. For if your selfe had bene of your selfe, you would haue remained better with your selfe. It is no wise­dome, in carpinge others, to offer occasion against your selfe. I beseche God to geue you grace, that you maye Redire ad cor, and returne againe to your selfe. But here you bringe in a great many Vntruthes in a thronge togeather. You saye, that as God commaunded the people of Israel to obey Aaron, so Christe commaunded al his Shéepe to obey the Pope succedinge Peter: You saye, Christe made the Pope Shepheard ouer his whole flocke: You cal him Our Pastour, and our Iudge: you cal him the head Shepheard: & for proufe hereof, for some countenance of Truthe, ye allege the one and twentith Chapter of S. Iohn, in whiche whole Chapter not­withstandinge, ye are not able to finde, neither any suche commaundement of Christe: nor any mention of Peters Successour: nor Al his Shéepe: nor Shep­heard ouer his whole Flocke: nor Our Pastour: nor Our Iudge: nor Our Head-shepheard. It is mutche to reporte Vntruthe of a man. But to reporte Vntruthe of Christe, and of his Holy Woorde, and that willingly, and witingly, and without feare, some menne thinke it to be the Sinne against the Holy Ghoste.

As for these woordes, Feede my Sheepe, Feede my Lammes, they perteine as wel [Page 18] to other the Apostles, Matthae. 28. 1▪ Cor. 15. as to Peter. Christe saide generally to al his Disciples, Goe ye into al the worlde, and preache the Gospel. And Paule saithe of him selfe, Ego plus omnibus laboraui: I haue taken more paines (and more fedde the flock) then al the rest. Surely me thinketh it is a weake kinde of reasoninge, to saie thus, Christe bade Peter féede his shéepe, Ergo, he made him headshepheard ouer al the worlde.

But if this whole Prerogatiue hange of Féedinge the Flocke, what then if the Pope Féede not? What if he neuer minde to Féede, as thinkinge it no parte of his office? To conclude, what if he be vtterly ignorant, as many haue benne, and cannot Féede? Yet must he needes be the headshepheard ouer the whole flocke? and must al the shéepe obey him, and heare his voyce, that cannot speake? Verily S. Augustine saithe, Qui hoc animo pascunt oues Christi, vt suas velint esse, non Chri­sti, se conuincuntur amare, Augustin in Io­han. Tracta. 123. non Christum, vel gloriandi, vel dominandi, vel acquirendi cupiditate: Who so euer they be, that Feede the sheepe to the ende to make them theirs, and not Christes, they soue them selues, and not Christe, for desire either of glorie, or of rule, or of gaine.

M. Hardinge.

The auncient fathers are but men, if they please you not. But if ye finde anie colour of aduan­tage but in the newe Schoolemen, ye make mutche of it. So that your owne opinion is the rule to esteeme them or despise them. Councels. Councles ye admitte as your phansie and pleasure leadeth, sometimes three, sometimes foure, sometimes fiue or sixe. But al ye would neuer admitte: and yet so many, as are general and haue bene confirmed by the See Apostolike, Ceremonies of the Churche A­bolished by the Gospellers. they are al of like authoritie. Concerninge Ceremonies, if ye shewe vs not the vse of Chrisme in your Churches, if the signe of the Crosse be not borne before you in Processions, and other wheres vsed, if Holy VVater be abolished, if lightes at the Gospel and communion be not had, if peculiar Vestimentes for Deacons, Priestes, Byshoppes be taken awaie, and many suche other the like: iudge ye, whether ye haue duely kepte the old Ceremonies of the Churche.

As for your newe Traditions, P [...]ites and Ceremonies, I can not tel, what to make of them, nor whether I maye so terme them.

No manner of thinge haue we changed that is of necessitie either to be beleued, or to be obserued.

The B. of Sarisburie.

Wée allowe the Auncient Fathers the same credite, that they them selues haue euer desired. S. Augustine hereof writeth thus: Neque quorumuis Disputationes, quantumuis Catholicorum, August. and For­tunatianum, [...]pist. III. & laudatorum hominum, velut Scripturas Canonicas habere debemus, vt nobis non liceat, salua reuerentia, quae illis debetur, aliquid in illorum Scrip­tis improbare, aut respuere, si fortè inuenerimus, quòd aliter senserint, quàm Veritas ha­bet. Talis sum ego in scriptis aliorum: tales volo esse intellectores meorum: We re­ceiue [Page 19] not the Disputations or VVritinges of any menne, be they neuer, so Catholique, or praise­woorthy, as wee receiue the Canonical Scriptures: but that, sauinge the reuerence dewe vnto them, wee may wel reproue or refuse some thinges in theire writinges, if it happen wee finde, they haue otherwise thought, then the Truthe may beare them. [...]utche am I in the writinges of others: and sutche would I wishe others to be in mine. Likewise he writeth to S. Hie­rome, Non puto, August. ad Hie­ronym. Epist. 19. Frater, te velle Libros tuos legi, tanquam Apostolorum, aut Propheta­rum: I recken not, my Brother, that ye would haue vs so to reade your Bookes, as if they were written by the Apostles, or Prophetes. It is certaine, Tertullian, EEyprian, Cle­mens Alexandrinus, Papias, Irenaeus, Victorinus, Lactautius, Hilarius, & other Ancient Fathers were oftentimes mutch deceiued, S. Hierome s [...]ffeth at S. Am­broses Commentaries vpon Luke, and calleth them, Nugas, trifles, and nick­nameth S. Ambrose, Picus Mirandu­la in Apologia. August. contra Cros. onium, li. 2. cap. 21. sometime callinge him Coruus, sometime Cornicula Like­wise S. Augustine saithe, Ecclesiastici Iudices, vt homines, plaerunque falluntur: The Iudges, or Doctours of the Churche, as beinge men, are often deceiued. And Thomas of Aquine saithe, Non tenemur de necessitate Salutis, credere nō solùm Doctoribus Eccle­siae, vt Hieronymo, aut Augustino, sed ne ipsi quidem Ecclesiae, nisi in his quae pertinent ad substantiam Fidei: Picus Mirandu­la in Apologia Thomas in Wee are not bounde vpon the necessitie of Saluation to beleue not one­ly the Doctours of the Churche, as Hierome, or Augustine, but also neither the Churche it selfe, sauinge onely in maters concerninge the substane of Faithe.

Touchinge the authoritie of Councels, Quod [...]ibet. 9. Arti. Vltimo. August contra Donat ist. lib. 2. Cap. 3. S. Augustine saithe, Ipsa plenaria Concilia saepè priora à posterioribus emendantur, cùm aliquo experimento aperitur, quod clausum e [...]at: The very General Councels are often corrected, the former by the later, as of­ten as by trial and experience the thing is opened, that before was shut. Likewise Panormi­tane saithe, Plus credendum est vni priuato fideli, quàm toti Concilio, & Papae, si me­liorem habeat authoritatem, vel rationem: Wee ought to geue more credite to one priuate [...]aye man, Abb. Panormit. De Electio, & Electi Potest. Cap. Signifi­casii. Esai. 8. then to the whose Councel, and to the Pope, if he bringe better authoritie, and more reason. If the Counsel be wicked, and carried with malice, as many haue benne, specially within these fewe late hundred yeres, We saie, as the Prophete Esai saithe, Inite Consilium, & dissipabitur: Loquimini verbum, & non stabit: quia no­biscum est Dominus: Take Counsel togeather, and it shalbe broken: Speake the woorde, and it shal not holde: For the Lorde is with vs.

As for the late Schole Doctours, your selues weigh them as litle, as noman lesse. You say in youre common talkes, Bernardus nō vidit omnia: You haue control­led your Doctour of al Doctours. Peter Lombard, with this common Caueat in the Margine, Hic Magister non tenetur: Here our Doctour is no Doctour. You your selfe M. Hardinge, M. Hardinge, Fol. 92. b. M Hardinge, Fol. 232. b. M. Hardinge. Fol. 258. in this youre very Booke against our Apologie sate. that your Doctor Gratian was deceiued, and in stéede of Anacletus alleged Calixtus. You youre selfe againe saie, If in a secrete pointe of learninge S. Augustine, or S. Cyprian teache singularely, Wee folowe them not: mutche lesse do wee binde our selues to beeue, what soeuer [...]lbertus Pigghius hath written. And againe, VVee binde our selues neither to the woordes of Syluester, nor of Pighius. And againe. wee take not vpon vs to defende al that the Canonistes, or Scholemen saie, or write. And an other of your companie saieth, that your Doctour Gratian hath published great vntruthes, Copus Dialogo 1. Pag. 33. & wilfully falsified the General Councel. Nomen Vniuer salis, saithe he, assutum est à Gratiano. Thus, M. Hardinge, ye vse your Doctours, euen as the Marchante vseth his Counters: sometime to stande for an hundred pounde, some­time for a pennie.

But nowe let vs a litle examine the particulars of your bil. Ye come in with Processions, with Lightes, with Torches, with Tapers, with Chrisme, with Oile, with Tunicles, and Chisibles, with Holy Water, and holy Breade, and I knowe not, what els: as if al these thinges had descended directly from the Apo­stles, and without the same the Churche of God were no Churche.

[Page 20] Verily, Oile. M. Hardinge, wée hate not any of al these thinges. For wée know, they are the Creatures of God. But you haue so misused them, or rather se dest­led, and beraied them with your superstitions, and so haue with the same mocked, & deceiued Goddes people, that wée can no longer continue them without great con­science. I wil passe ouer the rest, and speake onely of your Oile, whereof you séeme to make moste accoumpte. De Consec. Olei. In your Pontifical thus are ye taught to blesse your Oile: Fiat Domine hoc Oleum te benedicente, vnctio Spiritualis ad purificatio­nem Mentis, & Corporis: O Lorde, set this Oile by thy blessinge be made a Spiritual ointe­ment to purifie both Soule and Body. And againe, Emitte quaesumus, Sancte Pater, Spi­ritum Sanctum Paracletum tuum de Coelis in hanc pinguedinem Oliuae, ad refectionem Corporum, & Sanationem animarum: O holy Father, wee beseche thee, sende downe thy holy Sprite the Comforter from He [...]uen into this fatnesse of the oliue, to the refresshinge of Body and Soule. In like sorte ye are taught to prate ouer the sicke: Per hanc Sanctam vnctionem, & suam prissimam misericordiam ignoscat tibi Deus, vt per hanc vnctionem habeas Rem [...]ssionem omnium peccatorum: By this holy enointinge, and by his greate Mer­cie God pardone thee, that by this enointing thou maiste haue Remission of al thy finnes. These thinges cannot be denied: they are written in al your Panuals, vsed and practised in al your Churches. Ye cal it Holy Oile, & Oile of Saluation: Ye beare the people in hande, that thereby they shal haue healthe of Body & Soule: And yet in deede ye haue no Chrisme at al. For Pope Innocentius saithe, Chrisma conficitur ex Oleo, & Balsamo: Extra. De Sacra vnctions. The Chrisme is made of Oile and Balsame. And to the makinge thereof the Balsame is as necessarie, as the Oile. But these many hundred yeres ye haue had no Balsame, nor hath there benne any to be had: Therefore ye haue had no Chrisme this longe while, but haue deceiued the people with quid pro quo, geuinge them one thinge for an other.

Nowe that your Oile came not from the Apostles, your owne Doctour Pa­normitane is witnesse. Panormitan. De Consuetud. ca. 5. For thus he writeth, Apostoli olim conferebant Spiritum Sanctum sola manus impositione. Et quia hodié Praelati non sunt ita beati, fuit institutum, vt illi conferrent hoc Sacramentum cum Chrismate: The Apostles in olde time gaue the Ho­ly Ghoste onely by s [...]ieinge on of handes. But nowe a daies bicause Bishoppes be not so Holy, order hathe benne taken, that they shoulde geue this Sacramente with Chrisme.

Neither is this mater so thorowly approued by al Antiquitie, as M. Harding imagineth. For Pope Innocentius is witnesse, that in olde times there were some, Extra. De Sacra vnction. Vngi­tur. that founde faulte with these dooinges. These be his woordes: Non ludaizat Ecclesia, cùm vnctionis celebrat Sacramentum, sicut Antiqui mentiuntur: The Churche is not Jewishe in solemnizinge the Sacramente of Vnction, as the Elders haue misreported.

Touching your Lightes, In Annotationi. in. 5. librum contra Marcionem. and Tapers, Beatus Rhenanus a man of greate learninge, and iudgemente, doubteth not, but ye borowed the vse thereof from the Heathens. I graunte, the Christians in olde time had Lightes in theire Churches, when they mette togeather at their common Praiers. But it appea­reth by the Ancient Fathers, that the same Lightes serued to solace them against the darke, Augu. De tempo. in Natali Do. Sermo. 3. and not for any vse of Religion. S. Augustine saith, Vouent alius Ole­um, alius Ceram ad luminaria noctis: They promise (to the Churche) one Oile, an other waxe, Eusebius devita Constan. Orat. 3. Hieron aduer. Vigilantium. M. Hardinge, Fol. 7. b. [...] 6. ca. 2. for the night Lightes. Likewise saithe Eusebius, [...]. Ignis Purus, quantum satis esset and praebendum lumen precantibus. A cleare Light, so mutche as might suffice the people at theire Praiers. So likewise saithe S. Hierome, Cereos non clara luce accendimus, sed vt noctis tenebras hoc solatio temperemus: VVee sight not cut Tapers at midde daie, but onely by this comfort to eas the darkenesse of the night. Therefore, M. Hardinge, vnto you, that set vp Lightes in your Churches, as your selfe saie, to the Honour of God, the Aunciente Father Lactantius saithe thus, Num mentis suae compos putandus est, qui Authori, [Page 21] & Datori Luminis Candelarum, Lightes. VVater. & Cerarum lumen offert pro munere? What, maie wee thinke, he is wel in his wittes, that vnto God the Maker and Geuer of Light wil offer vp Candels, and Tapers for a present? Verily Tertullian saithe, Accendant quotidiè lucer­nas, quibus lux nulla est, Tertul. De Ido­lolatria. &c. Illis competunt & Testimonia tenebrarum, & auspicia poe­narum: Let them that haue no sight (of God) set vp their Tapers euery daye, &c. To them belongeth bothe the Testimonie of darknesse, and the beginninge of Paine.

But what shal I saye of your Holy Water? No doubte it must néedes serue, as your Oile doothe, to the saluation of body, and soule. Augustinus Steuchus, a principal Doctour of your syde saithe, Augu. Steucha [...] in librum nu­mer. Cap. 19. Non inane institutum est, quòd Aquas sale & Orationibus sanctificamus, vt ad eorum aspersum delicta nostra deleantur. It is no vaine inuention, that wee hallowe VVater with Salte and Prayers, that by the sprinkesinge thereof our sinnes maye be forgeuen. Thus profanely, and Heathenlike he writethe, as if the Bloude of Christe were quite dried vp.

Beside al this, one of your Doctours of Louaine tellethe vs in good sadnesse, by reporte of one of the Iesuites, Copus Dialo. [...]. Pa. 18. b [...]: vlato in Timaeo: & Theodoret. De corrigēdis Grae­corum affecti­bus, Lib. 1. that in India Holy Water is very wholesome to driue awaye Mise, and to make barren Women to conceiue. I faine not this ma­ter: The place maye be séene. O M. Hardinge, I must néedes saye of your com­panie, that one saide sometime of the Grecians, Theise that cal themselues Catho­liques, are euer Children.

Ye saye, ye haue chaunged nothinge, that is of necessitie either to be beléeued, or to be obserued. What necessitie ye meane, I can not wel contecture. For when you liste, your Holy Water, and Holy Breade must néedes be of necessitie. But in déede of the ancient Godly orders of the Churche ye haue in a manner leafte nothinge, onlesse it be suche as ye might best haue spared: and the same ye haue so defaced withe superstition, that it hathe nowe quite loste his former vse, and is not the same it was before. Certainely if you had changed nothinge, then should you haue nowe no Priuate Masse.

Therfore wee maye iustly saye to you, as Tertullian saide in like case vnto the Romaine Heathens: Tertull. in A­pologetico. Vbi Religio? vbi veneratio Maioribus debita? Habitu, victu, in­structu, sensu, ipso denique sermone Proauis renūtiastis. Laudatis semper Antiquitatem: nouè de die viuitis. Per quod ostenditur, dum à bonis Maiorum institutis deceditis, ea vos retinere & custodire, quae non debuistis: cùm quae debuistis, non custoditis. Where is your Religion? where is the reuerence dewe to your forefathers? You haue forsaken them in your apparel, in your diet, in your order, in your meaning, and in your speeche. Ye change your life daily: yet ye praise Antiquitie. Whereby it appeareth, while ye seaue the good orders of your Elders, that yee keepe the thinges, yee should not keepe: seeinge ye keepe not the thinges, ye should keepe.

M. Hardinge.

VVee cannot despaire of this cause, Confidence of the Catholikes touchinge their cause. Lueae 21. Matthae, 28. Johan. 14. The Catholike Church assured­ly defended. Ephes. 4. onlesse wee would forsake our Faithe, as ye haue. For be­leuinge Christe. whiche our faithe leadeth vs vnto, wee cannot mistruste the continuance of this cause. Heauen and Earthe shal passe, but my woordes shal not passe, saithe Truthe it selfe. And his woordes tel vs, that he wil be with his Churche al daies to the worlds ende: And that he hath besought his Father to geue to it the Sprite of Truthe to remaine with it for euer. Then be wee moste assured of this cause. VVee tel you therefore, it standeth, and shal stande by Christes presence, and by the Holy Ghostes assistance, to the ende. Your cause yet standeth not, but wauereth and tottereth, as that whiche S. Paule termeth a puffe of doctrine, and doubtlesse shortely fall it shall, as all Here­sies haue fallen.

The authours and professours of them be dead and rotten, in Helfire with weepinge and grintinge of teeth. The like iudgement lookeye and your folowers to haue, if ye repent not, and reuoke your Heresies by time.

The B. of Sarisburie.

Wee cannot despaire. saithe M. Hardinge, of the continuance of our cause. For Hea­uen and Earthe shal passe: but Christes VVoorde shal not passe. He wil be with vs al daies to the worlds ende, &c. These Woordes, M. Hardinge, be true and certaine: and there­fore our hope is the firmer. Christe hath promised that the Sprite of Truthe shal remaine for euer, but not in the Pope, and his Cardinalles. For thereof he made no promise. Nay rather the Prophete Esai saithe, The Sprite of God shal rest vpon the poore, Esaie. [...]. and méeke harted, that trembleth at the Woorde of the Lorde.

The Churche of God shal stande stil, yea though Rome were possessed with Antichriste. Matthae. 15. It is true that Christe saithe, Euery plante, whiche my Heauenly Father hath not planted, shal be rooted vp: Vpon whiche woordes S. Hilarie saithe, Significat, Traditionem hominum cruendam esse, Hilar in Ca. 15. Matthaei. cuius fauore transgressi sunt Praecepta Legis: He meaneth, that the Tradition of man, for whiche Traditions sake they haue broken the Lawe of God, shal be taken vp by the rootes. Heauen and Earthe shal passe: and your fan­tastes, and diuises, M. Hardinge, shal passe: the Lorde hath spoken it: But the Woorde of God, and his Churche shal endure for euer.

But M. Hardinges Almanake saithe, Our Doctrine shal fal, and that very shortly. Herein I professe, I haue no skil. Goddes wil be donne. It is his cause: what so euer shal happen, his name be blessed for euer. In like sorte the Heathens in olde times, as S. Augustine saithe, vaunted them selues against the Faithe of Christe. August. In Psal. 70. Ad certum tempus sunt Christiani: postea peribunt, & redibunt Idola: re­dibit quod erat anteà. Verùm tu, cùm expectas, miser Infidelis, vt transtant Christiani, transis ipse sine Christianis: These Christians are but for a while: [...]al they shal, and that shortly. Then shal our Idols come againe, and it shalbe as it was before. But, O thou mise­rable Infidel, while thou lookest that the Christians should passe, thou possest awaie thee selfe without the Christians. Againe be saithe, Ecce veniet tempus vt finiantur, & non sint Christiani. Augusti. in eun­dem Psal [...]m. Sicut coeperunt ad aliquo tempore, ita vsque ad certum tempus erunt. Sed cùm ista dicunt, sine fine moriuntur: & permanet Ecclesia praedicans brachium Domini omni generationi venturae: They saie, behold, the daie wil come, when al these Christi­ans shal haue an ende. As they had a time to beginne, so shal they haue a time to continewe. But while they make these crakes, they them selues die without ende. But the Churche contineweth stil praisinge the almighty arme of God to euery generation that is to come.

But ye saie, The Authours and Professours of our Doctrine be damned in Hel fiere, and crie, Peccaui. This is a very terrible kinde of talke. But it is a rashe parte for you, [Page 23] M. Harding, so suddainely to skip into Goddes Chaire, and there to pronounce your Sentence Definitiue like a Iudge. August. in Psal. 36. par. 3. But God wil iudge of your iudgemente. S. Au­gustine saithe, Alia est sella terrena, aliud Tribunal. Coelorum: Ab inferiori Sententia accipitur. à superiori Corona: The earthly Chaier is one thinge: the Iudgemente seate in Heauen is an other. From the one wee receiue Sentence, from the other we receiue a Crowne. O M. Hardinge, God graunte you maie once crie, Peccaui: lest the time come that ye shal crie out, as it is written in the Booke of Wisedome: Sapien. 5. These are they whom wee sometime had in derision, and in a parable of reproche. VVee fooles thoughte theire life madnesse, and theire ende without honoure. But nowe are they coumpted emonge the Children of God, and theire portion is emonge the Sainctes.

M. Hardinge.

The Catholikes doo not burden you with ought, wherein by their owne iudgementes they condemne themselues, as ye sclaunder them not onely here, but oftentimes in your Booke. For if they iudged other­wise. they would not wittingly do against their iudgemente. That is the special propertie of an He­retike, whom S. Paule hiddeth al men to a voide, knowinge that he that is suche, is peruerted, Tim. 5. and seemeth euen condemned by his owne iudgement.

[Page 24] They shewe bothe your blasphemous Heresies, and your wicked actes. Luther, ye knowe. pow­red out his Heresies and villanies. &c. Your robbinge of Churches, persecutinge of men for stan­dinge s [...]edfastly in the faithe of the Holy forefathers, your incestuous mariages of Monkes, Friers, and Nonnes, your breache of solemne vowes for fleashly pleasure, your prophaninge and abandoninge of Holy Sacramentes, your contempt of auncient and godly ordinaunces and discipline of the Churche, and suche other thinges of like estimation.

For in deede the catholikes doo persecute you, (if suche deserued entreatinge of euill persons maye be called persecution) and al good folk besides, wee gr [...]te, and shal so doe, so longe as they love the Truthe, and keepe them in the vnitie of the Churche. Yet with no other minde doo they persecu [...]e you, Genes. 16. Iohan. 2. [...]. then Sara did Agar: then Christ the Iewes, whom he whipt out of the Temple: then [...]eter did S [...]nom Magus.

The B. of Sarisburie.

Yewis, M. Hardinge, it might please you to remember, that Bartholomae­us Latomus a Doctour of your side confesseth in writinge to al the worlde, [...]ar. Latonus aduersus Bucerū y ^• our request touchinge the Holy Ministration vnder Bothe Kindes, accordinge to Christes first Institution, is iuste and reasonable:

That Gerardus Lorichius an other of your owne side saithe, Sunt Pse [...]docatho­lici, qui Reformationem Ecclesiae quoquo modo remorari non verentur: They be false Catholiques (and this, [...]erar. Lorichi­us De Missa prorogand [...]. In 7. par. Canonis. M. Hardinge, he speaketh of you, beinge one of your owne) they be False Catholiques, that hinder the Reformation of the Churche by al meanes they be hable. He saithe, you be false Catholiques, far contrary to the common opinion: and concludeth in the ende, that the wilful mainteinance and sequel of your Doctrine in this pointe, is, as he calleth it, Haeresis, & Blasphemia pestilens, & execrabilis: An Heresie, and a Blayhemie against God, Pestilent and Cursed;

That others of your [...]de confesse, that this your vse of Ministration vnder one kinde, Steuin Gard. in the Diuels So­phist [...]ie. whiche nowe ye cal Catholique, began first, not of Christe, or his Apostles, or any Ancient Learned Father: but onely of the errour, or, as he better termeth it, of the simple Deuotion of the People:

That Albertus Pighius, the stoutest gallante of al your Campe, graunteth there haue benne, Albertus [...]ighi­us De Missa P [...]uata. Platina in Vio 2. 10. Shidanus Li. 4. and be many Abuses in your Passe, notwithstandinge ye haue tolde vs far otherwise:

That Pope Pius oftentimes graunted, and vsed commonly to saie, He sawe great causes, why Priestes shoulde be restoared to the libertie of Mariage: That Pope Adrian by his Legate Cheregatus confessed openly at Norenherg in the Ge­neral Diet of al the Princes of Germanie, that al the il of the Churche came firste à culmine Pontificio, From the toppe Castle of the Pope:

And to be short, M. Hardinge, it might haue pleased you to remember, that your selfe in your first Booke, M. Harding fo. 22 b. in the Defence of your Priuate Passe, haue written thus: Mary, I denie not, but that it were more commendable, and more Godly on the Churches Parte, if many well disposed, and examined woulde be partakers of the blessed Sacramente with the Prieste.

Al these thinges, M. Hardinge, be they [...]ses, or Abuses: Reasonable, or Vn­reasonable: Right, or Wronge: Better or woorse: Be they neuer so wicked, neuer so Blasphemous, neuer so cursed, yet be they stoutly defended stil, and no hope offered of amendement: With what Conscience of your parte, he onely s [...]eth, that s [...]eth the Conscience. You graunte, ye persecute your brethren, where ye haue the Swerd, and maye persecute: but as Sara did Agar: Gene. 16 Iohn 2. Chrysost. in Mat. thae. Homi. 19. as Christe did the Iewes: and not otherwise. Verily, M. Hardinge, that Christe, or Sara were persecutours. I haue not greatly heard. But I remember Chrysostome saithe thus: Nunquid Ouis Lupum persequitur aliquando? Non, sed Lupus ouem. Sic enim Caim [Page 25] persecutus est Abel: Persequu­tion for Loue. non Abel Caim. Sic Ismael persecutus est Isaac, non Isaac Ismael: Sic Iudaei Christum, non Christus Iudaeos: Haeretici Christianos, non Christiani Haere­sicos. Ergo ex fructibus corum cognoscetis eos: What, doothe the Sheepe perscute the Woulfe at any time? No, but the Woulfe doothe persecute the Sheepe. For so Caim per­secuted Abel, not Abel Caim: So Ismael persecuted Isaac, not Isaac Ismael: So the Iewes persecuted Christe, not Christe the Iewes: So the Heretiques persequute the Christians, not the Christiaus the Heretiques. [...] ye shal knowe them by their fruites.

S. Augustine saithe, August contra Lite, Pe [...]ili a. Lib. 2. Cap 19. Chrysost. in Mat­thae. Homil. 19. Non eo modo persecutionem passi sunt Pseudoprophetae ab Elia, quomodo ipse Elias à Rege nequissimo: Neither were the Palse Prophetes so perse­cuted by Elias, as Elias was persecuted by the wicked Kinge. Surely Chrysostome saithe, Quem videris in sanguine persequutionis gaudentem, Lupus est: Whome so euer ye see [...]eioicinge in the Bloudde of persequution, he is the VVoulfe.

But yée pretende greate good wil, and saye, Ye persecute and murder your Bre­thren for Loue, In vespit. as Christe persequuted the Iewes. So I trowe, Aristophancs saithe, Philippides tooke a cudgel, and beatte his Father, and al for loue. How be it. M. Hardinge, neither are you armed, as Christe was armed: nor was Christe ar­med, as you are armed. I must saye to you, as S. Augustine saithe vnto the He­retiques the Donatistes: August. contra Liter. Per [...]lta [...] Lib. 2. Cap. 87. Hanc formam ne ab ipsis quidem Iudaeis persecutoribus ac­cepistis. Illi enim persequuti sunt Carnem ambulantis in terra: Vos Euangelium seden­tis in Coelo: Ye learned not this fourme of persequution, no not of the Iewes. For they per­sequuted the Fleashe of Christe walkinge in the Earthe: You persequute the Gospel of Christe sittinge in Heauen. Holcore in. 1. Sē ­ten. Quaest 3. Arti. 8. Dubi 2. Orig. in Genes. Homi. 7. Gene. 21. Calat. 4. Robert Holcote emonge other his doubtes moueth this question An Amor sit odium: VVhether Loue be hatred; or no. Yf he were nowe aliue, & sawe your dealinge, and the kindnesse of your Loue, I beleue, he woulde put the mater out of question, & saye, vndoubtedly your Loue is hatred, it is no Loue. So Moses saithe, Ismael plaied or sported with Isaac. But S Paule saithe, The same plaieinge and sportinge was persecution. For thus he writeth: He, that was after the Fleashe, persequuted him, was after the Sprite.

I doubte not, but you thinke, of your parte it is wel donne. For so Christe saithe, VVho so euer shal Murder you, Iohan. 16. shal thinke be offereth a Sacrifice vnto God. And your selues haue sette to this note in greate Letters in the Margine of your Decrees: Iudaei mortaliter peccassent, Dist. 13. Item: In Margine. si Christū nō Crucifixissent: The Iewes had Sinned deadly, if they had not hinged Christe vpon the Crosse. Benedictus Deus, qui non dedit nos in captio­nem Dentibus eorum: Blessed be God, that hath not geuen vs to be a Praie vnto their Teeth.

To al the reste it is sufficient for M. Hardinge to saye, They be Blasphemous Here­sies: wicked Actes: Lutheres Heresies, and villanies: Robbinge of Churches: Breaches of Vowes: Pleas [...]ely pleasures: Abandoninge of the Holy Sacramentes: Malices, Sclaunders, and Lies. And bisides these thinges, in effecte he answeareth nothinge. Nowe to answeare no­thinge with some thinge, it were woorthe nothinge.

The Apologie, Cap. 3. Diuision. 5.

Nowe therefore, if it be leeful for these folkes to be eloquent and finetongued in speakinge euil, surely it becommeth not vs in our cause, beinge so very good, to be doumbe in answearinge truely. For, menne to bee carelesse, what is spoken by them and theite owne ma­ter, be it neuer do falsely and sclaunderousely spoken, (especialy when it is sutche, that the Maiestie of God, and the cause of Reli­gion maye thereby be dammaged) is the parte doubtlesse of dissolute and retchelesse persons, and of them, whiche wickedly winke at the iniuries donne vnto the Name of God. For although other wronges, ye oftentimes greate, maye be borne and dissembled of a milde and [Page 26] Christian man: yet he that goeth smoothely awaye and dissembleth the mater when he is noted of Heresie, Ruffinus was woont to de­nie, that man to be a Christian. Wee therefore wil doo the same thinge, whiche al Lawes, whiche natures owne voice doothe com­maunde to be donne, and whiche Christe him selfe did in like case when he was checked and reuiled: to the in [...]t wee maye put of from vs these mennes sclaunderous accusations, and maye defende sober­ly and truely our owne cause and innocencie.

M. Hardinge.

Yee haue not proued, the Truthe to be of your side, nor euer shal be able to proue, mainteininge the Doctrine of the Lutheras, Zwinglians, and Caluinistes, as ye doo. Nowe al dependeth of that pointe. And bicause yee haue not the Truthe, what so euer ye saye, it is soone confuted: and what so euer ye bringe, it is to no purpose.

The B. of Sarisburie.

This is the very issue of the case: Whether the Doctrine that wée professe, be the Truethe, or no. Whiche thinge through Goddes Grace, by this our confe­rence, in parte maye appare. I beseeche God the Authour of al Truthe, and the Father of Light, so to open our hartes, that the thinge that is the Truthe in déede, maye appeare to vs to be the Truthe.

The Apologie, Cap. 4. Diuision. 2.

For Christe verily, when the Phariseis charged him with Sor­cery, as one that had some familiare Sprites, and wrought many thinges by theire helpe: I, saide he, haue not the Diuel, but doo glori­fie my Father: but it is you, that haue dishonoured me, and put me to rebuke and shame. And S. Paule, when Festus the Lieutenaunt scorned him, as a mad man: I (saide he) moste deer Festus, am not mad, as thou thinkest, but I speake y ^e Woordes of Truth & sobrenesse. And the ancient Christians, when they were sclaundered to the people for mankillers, for Adulterers, for committers of incest, for distur­bers of the common Weales, and did perceiue, that by sutche sclaunde­rous accusations the Religion whiche they professed, mighte be brought in question, namely if they should seeme to holde their peace, & in manner confesse the faulte: lest this might hinder the free course of the Gospel, they made Orations, they put vp Supplications, and made meanes to Emperours, and Princes, that they mighte defende them selues and theire Felowes in open Audience.

M. Hardinge.

When ye prooue, that ye haue the Truthe, then maye ye be admitted, in your Defence to alleage the example of Christe, of S. Paule, and of the firste Christians. But nowe wee tel you, beinge as you are, these examples serue you to no purpose. And for ought ye haue saide [...]itherto, the Ana­baptistes, Libertines, Zwenkfeldians, Nestorians, Eunomians, Arians, and al other pestiferous He­retikes might saye the same aswel as ye. Christe was charged of the Iewes with vsinge the power of impure Sprites, Luke. 11. Act. 26. Tertul. in Apo­log. blasphemously: Paule was scorned of Festus, as a mad man, without cause: the An­cient Christians were accused by the Infidels of hainous crimes, falsely. But ye are accused of Here­sies and sundrie Impieties, by Godly, VVise, and Faithful men, vpon Zeale, by good aduise, and truely. And as for those Auncient Christians, when they made Apologies or Orations in the Defence of the [Page 27] Christen Faithe, The Apologies of the olde Fa­thers vvere lavv­fully published. Eccles. Hist. Lib 4. Cap. 26. they did it so as became Christen men, plainely and openly. Either they offered them to the Emperours with thei owne handes, or put to their names, and signified to whome they gaue the same. As S. Hilary deliuered a Booke in Defence of the Catholique Faithe against the Arians to Constantius. Melito and Apollinaris wrote their Apologies to the Emperours. S. Iustine the Philoso­pher and Martyr gaue his firste Apologie for the Christians to the Senate of the Romaines, the seconde to Autonius Pius Emperour: Eccles. Hist. Lib. 5. Cap. 21. Tertullian to the Romaines. S. Apollonius the Romaine Senatour and Martyr did Reade his Booke openly in the Senate house, whiche he had made in Defence of the Chri­stian Faithe. The Apologie of the Churche of England for foorthe suspiti­ously, and vvith­out due order. But yee doo your thinges, that ought to be done openly, in Hucker Mucker. Ye set foorth your Apologie in the name of the Churche of Englande, before any meane parte of the Churche were priuie to it, and so as though either ye were ashamed of it, or afraide to abide by it. The inscrip­tion of it is directed neither to Pope nor Emperour, nor to any Prince, nor to the Churche, nor to the general Councel then beinge when ye wrote it, as it was moste conuenient: There is no mans name set to it: Vntruthe. It is Printed without Priuilege of the Prince, contrary to Lawe in that behalfe made: allowed neither by Parlament, nor by Proclamation, nor agreed vpon by the Cleregie in Publike and lawful Synode. This packinge becommeth you: it becommeth not the vpright Professours of the Truthe Wherefore your vnlawful Booke, The Apologie [...] famous Libel. as it is, so it maye be called an Inuectiue, or rather a Famous Li­bel, and sclaunderous VVrite, as that whiche seemeth to haue benne made in a corner, and cast abroade in the streetes, the Authours whereof the Ciuil Lawe punis heth sharpely.

The B. of Sarisburie.

Howe far foorth these examples maye serue vs, wée remit the iudgement there­of to the discrete Christian Reader. It is not yenough thus to crie out, Impieties, and Heresies. M. Hardinges bare Woorde in this behalfe is not sufficient to war­rant an euidence. Certainely emonge other greate comfortes, that wee haue in Goddes mercies, this is one, and not the leaste, that touchinge the Innocencie, and right of out cause, wée maye saye to you, as Christe saide to the Phariseis, Wee haue not the Diuel, Iohan. 2. Act. 26. but wee glorifie our Father: Or, as S. Paule saide vnto Festus, Wee are not madde (M. Hardinge) as ye reporte of vs: but wee viter vnto you the Woordes of Truthe and sobrietie.

But this is a piteous faulte: The names of al the Bishoppes, Deanes, Acche­deacons, Personnes, Vicares, and Curates of England are not sette to our Apolo­gie. It is directed neither to the Emperour, nor to the Pope, nor to the Councel. Neither is it Printed with Priuilege of the Prince. This laste clause is a ma­nifest Vntruthe, and maye easily be reproued by the Printer. Hereof ye conclude, It is a sclaunderous Libel, and was written vnder a Hedge, and, as you saye, in Hucker Mucker.

Firste, were it graunted, that al, ye saye of Hilarie, Melito, Iustinus, Ter­tullian, and Apollonius were true: Yet muste it néedes folowe, that al Bookes, that are not Subscribed with the Authours names, were written in a corner? Firste to beginne with the Scriptures, tel vs, M. Hardinge, who wrote the Bookes of Genesis, of Exodus, of Leuiticus, of Numeri, of Deuteronomiū, of Io [...]ue, of the Iudges, of the Kinges, of y ^e Chronicles, of Iob, &c. Who inrote these Bookes? I saye: Who authorized them? Who Subscribed his name? Who set to his S [...]ale? The Booke of Wisedome by some is Fathered vpon Philo, by some vpō Salomon. The Epistle vnto y ^e Hebrewes, some saye, was written by S. Paule: Some, by Cle­mens: Some, by Barnabas: Some, by some other: & so are wee vncertaine of y ^e Au­thours name. S. Marke, S. Luke, S. Iohn, neuer once named them selues in their Gospels. The Apostles Crede, the Canons of the Apostles, by what names are they Subscribed? Howe are they authorized? To what Pope, to what Emperour were they offered? To leaue others the Auncient Doctours of the Churche, whiche, as you knowe, are often misnamed, Ambrose for Augustine, Gréeke for Latine, [Page 28] Newe for Olde: your Doctour of Doctours, the fairest flower, and croppe of your garlande Gratianus, is so wel knowen by his name, that wise menne can not wel tel, Erasm. In Prae­sae. in tertiam Seriem quaerti Tom. Hiero­nymi. What name to geue him. Erasmus saithe of him thus, Quisquis fuit, siue Gra­tianus, siue Crassianus: What so euer name wee may geue him: be it Gratianus, or Crassia­nus. And againe he saithe, Eruditi negant, illam Gratiani, nescio cuius, congeriem vlla vnquam Publica Ecclesiae authoritate fuisse comprobatam: The learned saye, that Gratians Collection, or heape of maters, was neuer allowed by any Publique Authoritie of the Churche. Erasm. In Prae­fatione in. 4. Tom. Hiero­nymi. And againe, Non constat vllis argumentis, quis fuerit Gratianus, quo tem­pore opus suum exhibuerit, cuius Pontificis, cuius Concilij fuerit Authoritate compro­batum: It cannot appeare by any tokens of recorde, neither what this Gratian was: nor at what time he offered vp his Booke: nor what Councel, nor what Pope allowed it.

Who subscribed the late Councel of Colaine? Who subscribed the Booke not longe sithence sette abroade vnder the name of the Churche of Colaine, and named Antididagma? To be shorte, who subscribed your owne late Booke intituled the Apologie of Priuate Masse? Where were they written? Where were they Sub­scribed? By what authoritie, and vnder what names were they allowed? I wil saye nothinge of your late Famouse Volume bearinge the name of Marcus Antonius Constantius. This Booke, as you see, hathe three greate names: Notwithstan­dinge the Authour him selfe had but twoo: and yet not one of al these three. What, M. Hardinge, would you make your Brethren beleue, that al these be but sclaun­derous Writes, diuised onely in Hucker Mucker, and vnder a Hedge?

The Decree, Actor. 13 the Apostles made in the fiftenthe Chapter of the Actes, it appea­reth not, it was so curiously subscribed with al theire names. The Protestation of the Bohemiens in the Councel of Basile, the Confession of the Churches of Ge­neua & Heluetia, for ought that I knowe, haue no sutche Publique Subscriptions. Neither is it necessarie, nor commonly vsed, to ioyne Priuate mennes names to Publique maters: neither in so mightie & ample a Realme, vpon al incident occasi­ons is it so easy to be donne. Briefely our Apologie is cōfirmed by as many names, as the highe Courte of Parlamente of England is confirmed.

Neither was the same conceiued in so darke a corner, as M. Hardinge ima­gineth. For it was afterwarde imprinted in Latine at Parise: and hathe henne fithence Translated into the Frenche, the Italian, the Duche, and the Spa­nishe tongues: and hathe benne sente, and borne abroade into France, Flaun­ders, Germanie, Spaine, Poole, Hungarie, Denmarke, Sueucland, Scotland, Italie, Naples, and Rome it selfe to the iudgemente and trial of the whole Churche of God. Yea it was Readde, and sharply considered in your late Couente at Tri­dent, & greate threates made there, that it should be answeared: and the mater by twoo Notable learned Bishoppes taken in hande, the one a Spaniarde, the other an Italian: Which twoo notwithstandinge, these fiue whole yéeres haue yet donne nothinge, nor, I belèeue, intende any thinge to doo. In deede certaine of your Brethren haue benne often gnawinge at it: but sutche as care nothinge, nor is cared, what they write.

But if names be so necessarie, wee haue the names of the whole Cleregie of Englande, to confirme the Faithe of our Doctrine, and your name, M. Hardinge, as you can wel remember, emongst the reste: onlesse, as ye haue already denied your Faithe, so ye wil nowe also denie your name.

To conclude, it is greatter modestie to publishe our owne Booke, without Name, then, as you doo, to publishe other mennes Bookes in your owne Names. For in deede, M. Hardinge, the Bookes ye lende so thicke ouer, are not yours. Ye are but Translatours: ye are no Authours. Yf euery birde shoulde fetche againe his owne Feathers, alas your poore Chickens woulde die for colde.

[Page 29] But you saye, Wee offered not our Booke to the Pope. No, neither ought wée so to doo. He is not our Bishop: He is not our Iudge. Wee maye saye vnto him, as the Emperour Constantius saide sometime to Pope Liberius, Theodoret. in Hist. Ecclesiast. Quoia es tu pa [...]s Or­bis terrarum? VVhat greate portion art thou of the whole Worlde? As for your Councel of Tridente, God wote, it was a séely Couente, for ought that maye appeare by theire Conclusions.

Wée offered the Defense, and profession of our Doctrine vnto the whole Churche of God: & so vnto the Pope, & the Councel too, if they be any parte, or member of the Churche: & by Goddes mercie, shal euer be hable in al places bothe with our handes, and with our Bodies to yelde an accoumpte of the hope wee haue in Iesus Christe. Whereas it liked you to terme our Apologie a Sclaunderous Libel, I doubt not, but who so euer shal iudifferently consider your Booke, shal thinke M. Hardinges tonge wanteth no sclaunder.

M. Hardinge.

The reasons and examples ye bringe for it, conclude nothinge. Bicause lackinge Truthe. ye builde vpon a false grounde, what so euer ye set vp, eftsones it falleth, beinge stated by no iuste proufe. Here ye goe foorthe, and faine woulde ye proppe vp that matter: but your reasons be as weake as before. There haue not so many thousandes of your Brethren benne burnte for Heresie in these laste twentie yeeres, as yee pretende. But when ye come to boastinge, then haue ye a greate grace in vsinge the Figure Hyperbole: Then Scores be Hundreds: Hundreds be Thousands: Thousands be Millions.

But what was Michael Seruetus the Arian, Seruetus burnt for Heresie at Ge [...]eua. who was burnte at Geneua by procurement of Cal­uine, a Brother of yours? Dauid George that tooke vpon him to be Christe, who was taken vp after he was buried and burnte at Basile, Dauid George. Ioan of Kent. was he your Brother? To come neare home, Ioan of Kent that fil [...]h, who tooke foorthe a lesson further then you taught her (I trowe) or yet Preache, was she a Sister of yours? So many Adamites, so many Zwenck feldians, so many hundreds of Anabaptistes and Liber­tines, as haue within your twentie yeeres benne ridde out of their liues by fiere, swoorde, and wa­ter in sundry partes of Christendome, were they al of your blessed Brotherhed?

And this is the chiefe argument yee make in al that Huge Dungehil of your stinkinge Martyrt, Actes and Mo­numentes. whiche yee haue intituled Actes and Monumentes. But we tel you, It is not deathe that iustifieth the cause of dyinge: But it is the cause of dyinge that iustifieth the Death.

Princes (ye saye) were desirous to restraine your Gospel, and though they went about it by many waies, yet preuailed they nothinge. Therefore your Doctrine must needes be the true Gospel. As good an Argumente as this is, A vveake argu­mēt of Truthe. may Theeues make in their Defence. For Princes be desirous to keepe their Dominions from Robbinge, and haue euer deuised straight Lawes and punishmentes for restrainte of Theeues: yet be Theeues euery where, and thefte is dayly committed.

And whereas your Gospel is a grosse Gospel, This Carnal Gospel soone taketh place a­monge carnal hearers. a Carnal Gospel, a Belly Gospel: wonder it is not, if those people be not wholy withdrawen from assentinge to the same, who be not of the finest wittes. and be muche geuen to the Seruice of the Belly, and of the thinges beneath the Belly. Yet where the [Page 30] Princes haue vsed most diligence, Heresies restrai­ned by due pu­nishement. and best meanes to stoppe the course of your Heresies, there the peo­ple remaine most Catholike: As euery man may iudge by vewe of Italy, Spaine, Base Almaine, and Fraunce, before that weightie Sceptre by Gods secrete prouidence for punishement of sinne, was com­mitted to feeble handes, that for tender age were not able to beare it.

Your other argument, The argument of the defenders seruinge vvel for Antichrist. whereby ye would persuade your Gospel to be the trueth, is, that nowe (as ye crake) almost the whole world doth beginne to open their eies to behold the light. This argument seruethe maruelous wel for Antichrist. And truely, if he be not already come, ye may very wel seme to be his foreronners. Nay Sirs, if it be true that ye saye, that almost the whole world loketh that waye, knowinge that in the latter dayes and towarde the ende of the world iniquitie shal abounde, and the Charitie of the more parte shal wexe colde: Matth. 24. VVee maye rather make a contrarie argument, and iudge your Gospel to be erroneous and false, because the multitude is so ready to receiue it. The argument of multitude returned vpon the defenders to a contrary con­clusion. Againe Christe hathe not loued his Churche so little, as that the world should nowe beginne to open their eies to behold the light. For the same presupposeth a former general darkenes. It standeth not with Christes promises made to the Churche, touchinge his being with the Churche al daies to the worldes ende, and the Holy Ghostes remaininge with it the Sprite of Truthe for euer, that he should suffer his Churche, Matth. 28. Iohan. 14. to continewe in darkenes and lacke of Truthe, these thousand yeres past, and now at the lat­ter daies to reuele the Truthe of his Gospel by Apostates, Vowebreakers, Churcherobbers, and sutche other most vnlike to the Apostles.

The B. of Sarisburie.

What so euer wée saye, here appeareth smal weight in M. Hardinges saieinges. Wée make no boaste of the numbers, and multitudes of our Martyrs. And yet, as S. Paule saithe, if wée should needes boaste, wée would chiefly boaste of sutche our infirmities. 2. Cor. 1 [...]. But wée reioise with them, and geue God thankes in theire behalfe, for that it hath pleased him, to prepare theire hartes vnto temptation, to trie and purifie them as Gold in Fornace, and to kéepe them faitheful vnto the ende.

As for Dauid George, and Seruete the Arian, and sutche other the like, they werè yours, M. Hardinge, they were not of vs: You brought them vp, the one in Spaine, the other in Flaunders. Wée detected theire Heresies, and not you: Wée arreigned them: Wée condemned them: Wée putte them to the Exequution of the Lawes. It séemethe very mutche to calle them our Brothers, because wée burnte them. It is knowen to Children, it is not the deathe, but the cause of the deathe that maketh a Martyr. August in Psal. 34. Par. 2. S. Augustine saithe, Tres erant in Cruce: Vnus Salua­tor: Alter Saluandus: Tertius Damnandus. Omnium par Poena, sed dispar causa: There were three hanginge on the Crosse: The first was the Saueour: The seconde to be Sa­ued: The third to be Damned. The Paine of al three was one, but the cause was diuerse.

Your Anabaptistes, and Zuenkfeldians, wée knowe not. They finde Harbour emongste you in Austria, Slesia, Morauia, and in sutche other Coun­tries, and Citties, where the Gospel of Christe is suppressed: but they haue no Ac­quaintance withe vs, neither in Englande, nor in Germanie, nor in France, nor in Scotlande, nor in Denmarke, nor in Sueden, nor in any place els, where the Gospel of Christe is clearely preached. But it hathe benne your greate Policie theise many late yeres, when ye murdered the Sainctes of God, firste to roote out theire Tongues, for feare of speakinge: and then afterward to telle the people, they were Anabaptistes, or Arians, or what ye lifted. Withe sutche policie Nero sometime that Bloudy Tiranne burnte the Christians in heapes togeather, Suetonius Tran­quillus in Nero­ne. and made open Proclamations, that they were Traitours, and Rebelles, and had [...]ired the Cittie of Rome.

It pleaseth you for lacke of other Euasion, to cal the Storie of Martyrs a Dung­bi [...] of Lies. But theise Lies shal remaine in Recorde for euer, to testifie and to condemne your Bloudy dooinges. Ye haue imprisoned your Brethren, ye haue [Page 31] stripte them naked, ye haue scourged them with Roddes, ye haue burnte theire handes and armes withe flaminge Torches, ye haue famished them, ye haue drowned them, ye haue burnte them: ye haue sommoned them beinge deade, to appeare before you out of theire graues, ye haue ripte vp theire buried Carkesses, ye haue burnte them, ye haue throwen them out into the Dunghil: ye tooke a poore Babe falling from his Mothers Wombe, and in most cruel, and Barbarous man­ner threw him into the fiere.

Al theise thinges, M. Hardinge, are true: they are no Lies: The eyes, and consciences of many thousandes can witnesse your dooinges. The Bloud of in­nocent Abel criethe to God from the earthe: and vndoubtedly, he wil require it at your handes. Chrysost in Matth. 1 Iomi. 19. Chrysostome saithe, as it is alleged before, Quem videris in San­guine persecutionis gaudentem, is Lupus est: Who so euer hathe pleasure in the Bloude of persecution, the same is a Wolfe. Ye slewe your Brethren so cruelly, not for Murder, or Robberie, or any other gréeuous crime, they had committed, but onely for that they trusted in the Liuinge God. Howe be it, wée maye saye withe the Old Father Tertullian, Tertull. ad Sca­pulam. Crudelitas vestra nostra gloria est: Your crueltie is our glorie.

Whereas wée auouche the Power and Authoritie of Goddes Holy Woorde, for that the more it is trodden downe, the more it growethe, and for that the Kinges, and Princes of this world with al theire puissance, and policie were neuer hable to roote it out, youre answeare is, that this reason may serue théeues as wel as vs. To dissemble youre odious comparisons, howe lightly so euer it shal please you to weigh this reason, yet youre Forefathers the Phariseis in olde time séemed to make some accoumpte of it. Iohan. 12. For thus they murmured, and misliked emong them selues: Videtis, nos nihil proficere. Ecce Mundus totus post eum abijt. Ye see, wee can doo no good. Loe the whole world (for al that wée can dòo) is gone after him. Tertullian likewise saithe, Exquisitior quae (que) crudelitas vestra illecebra magis est Sectae. Plures efficimur, Tertull. in Apo­logetico. quoties metimur a vobis. Semen est Sanguis Christianorum: The greattest crueltie, that ye can diuise, is an entisement to our Secte. Howe many of vs so euer ye mur­der, when ye come to the viewe, ye finde vs moe and moe. The seede of this encrease is Christian Bloud. August. de Ciui. lib. 22. cap. 6. So S. Augustine, Ligabantur, includebantur, caedebantur, torque­bantur, vrebantur: & multiplicabantur: They were fettred, they were imprisoned, they were beaten, they were rackte, they were burnte: and yet they multiplied. S. Cyprian saithe, Cyprian. lib. 1. Epist. 3. Gregorius Nazianzen. in reditium suum ex agro. [...]. Euseb. li. 4. ca. 8. Sacerdos Dei Euangelium tenens, & Christi praecepta custodiens, occidi potest, vinci non potest: The Priest of God holdinge the Testamente in his hande, killed he maye be, but ouercome he can not be. So likewise Nazianzene, Morte viuit: vulnere nascitur: depastum augetur: By deathe it liuethe: by woundinge it springethe: by diminishinge it en­creasethe.

Thus theise Holy Fathers, when they sawe, the Gospel of Christe increased and grewe by persecution, contrary to al iudgement of reason, and worldly policie, they were enforced, contrary to M. Hardinges iudgemente, therein to acknow­ledge the mighty power, and hande of God, and an vndoubted Testimonie of the Truthe. Iustinus a Godly Learned Father, and Martyr saithe thus of him selfe, Cùm auditem Christianos publicè traduci, & exagicati ab omnibus, viderē autem eos ad mortem, & ad omnia, quae ad terrorem excogitari possent, esse intrepidos, cogitabam, nul­lo modo posse fieri, vt illi in aliquo scelere viuerent: VVhen I (béeinge an Heathen, and one of Platoes Scholars) heard that the Christians were accused, and reuised of al menne, and yet sawe them to goe to theire deathe, and to al manner terrible, and cruel tor­mentes, quietly, and without feare, I thought with mee selfe, it was non possible, that sutche menne should liue in any wickednes. Sozomen. lib 1. cap. 1. [...] The like writethe Sozomenus of the Christians in the Primitiue Churche: Nec adulatione victi, nec minis perterriti, magnum omni­bus argumentum dabant, sese de maximis praemiis in certamen descendere: The Chri­stians [Page 32] neither relentinge by faire meanes, [...] nor shrinkinge for threates, made it wel appeare to euery man, that it was for some greate rewarde, they suffred sutche trouble.

Theise learned Fathers therefore sawe, that M. Hardinge could not sée, the encreasinge of the Gospel throughe deathe, and persecution, maugre the might of worldly Princes, Psal. 2. is an euident token of the Truthe. The Prophete Dauid saithe, The Princes came, and consulted togeather againste God, and againste his Christe. But he that dwelle the in heauen, Prou [...]r. 22. wil laughe them to scorne. There is no wisedome, there is no po­licie, there is no counsel against the Lorde.

Further, you saye, Our Gospel is grosse, and the people dulle, and sensual, and geuen to theire belly, and beastly pleasure, and therefore the apter, and readier to receiue the same. O M. Hardinge, what a desperate cause is this, that cannot stande without sutche ma­nifeste blasphemie of the Gospel of Christe, and dispiteful reproche of Goddes peo­ple? Certainely S. Rom. 2. Psalm. 2. Paule saithe, The Gospel is the power of God vnto Saluation: And the Prophete Dauid saithe, The people is Christes enheritance. What hathe the people so mutche offended you, that you should either in this place so scornefully, and so reprochefully reporte of them, or in your former Booke so disdeingfully cal them Swiene, M. Hardinge, Fol. 155. b. and Dogges? Yet is it not so longe sithence your selfe were an earnest professour of the same Gospel, were it neuer so grosse. Where was then your finenesse, and sharpnesse of witte? Where was your belly? Where was the reste? You should not so soone haue forgotten your owne selfe.

Surely M. Hardinge, neither wil the sensual man drowned in filthy, and beastly pleasures take vp his Crosse, and folowe Christe, and yelde his necke to your swearde, or his body to your fie [...]e: neither is it a grosse, or sensual Gospel, that wil leade him to the same.

You saye, it standethe not withe Goddes promisse, to forsake his Churche a thousande yeeres. It is mutche for you, M. Hardinge, openly to breake Goddes commaundementes, to defile his Holy Sanctuarie, to turne light into darkenesse, and darkenesse into light: and yet neuerthelesse to binde him to his promisse. Al menne be liers, Psal. 50. 2. Tim. [...]. but God onely is true, and preuailethe, when he is iudged. God knoweth his owne. Christe wil be euermore with his Churche, yea although the whole Churche of Rome conspire against him.

But why doo you so mutche abate your rekeninge? Why make you not vp your ful accoumpte of fiftéene hundred thréescoare and sixe yéeres, as ye were woonte to doo? Ye haue here liberally, and of your selfe quite striken of fiue hundred thrée­scoare and sixe yeeres, that is to saye, the whole time, wherein the Apostles of Christe, and Holy Martyrs, and other Learned Fathers, and Doctours liued: in whiche whole time it appeareth by your owne secrete Confession, the Churche of God might wel stande bothe without youre Priuate Masse (for then was there none) and also without many other your like fantasies. Neither ought you, M. Hardinge, so déepely to be greeued, and to calle vs Apostates, and Heretiques, for that wee haue reformed either our Churches to the Paterne of that Churche, or our selues to the example of those Fathers. Verily in the iudgement of the godly, fiue hundred of those firste yeeres are more woorthe, then the whole thousande yeeres that folowed afterward.

Therefore I wil aunsweare you with the woordes of S. Hieron ad Pam­machium & Oceanum. Hierome: Quisquis es assertor [...]ouorum Dogmatum, quaeso te, vt parcas Romanis [...]uribus: parcas Fidei, quae Apostolico ore laudatur. Cur post quadringentos annos docere nos niteris, quod an­teà nesciuimus? Cur profers in medium, quod Petrus, & Paulus edere noluerunt? Vs (que) ad hunc diem sine ista Doctrina Mundus Christianus fuit. Thou, that art a Mainteiner of newe Doctine, what so euer thou be, I praie thee spare the Romaine eares: spare the Faithe, that is commended by the Apostles mouthe. Why goest thou aboute nowe after foure hundred [Page 33] yeeres to teach vs that Faithe, which before wee neuer knewe? Why bringest thou vs foorthe that thinge, that Peter, and Paule neuer vttered? Euermore vntil this daye the Christian world hathe benne without this Doctrine.

The Apologie, Cap. 4. Diuision. 7.

For yf the Popes woulde, or els if they could weigh with theire owne selues the whole mater, and also the beginninges and proce­dinges of our Religion, howe in a manner al theire trauaile hathe come to nought, no body driuinge it forewarde, and without any worldly healpe: and howe on the other side, our cause, againste the wil of Emperours from the beginninge, againste the willes of so ma­ny Kinges, in spite of the Popes, and almoste maugre the head of al menne, hathe taken encrease, and by little and little spredde ouer into al Countreis, and is come at length euen into Kinges Courtes and Palaces: Theise same thinges me thinke the might be tokens greate yenough to them, that God him selfe doth strongly fight in our quar­rel, and dothe from Heauen laughe at theire enterprises: and that the force of the Truethe is sutche, as neither Mans Power, nor yet Helle gates are able to roote it out.

M. Hardinge.

It is wel, that ye vse the terme of the beginninge and procedinges of your Religion. For in deede of late yeres it beganne, not at Ierusalem, but at Wittenberg. Neither was it first deliuered vnto you by an Apostle, but by an Apostata. Stil it procedeth, and the farther of from the end. And wel may ye name it your Procedinges, for there is no staie in it. VVhat likethe to day, mislike the tomorowe. The seely begiled soules that folowe it, be as S. Paule saithe, ouer learninge, and neuer reachinge to the knowledge of the Truthe. [...]. Tim. [...].

Did not your Religion beginne firste of Co [...]etise, Vntruthe. and grew it not afterward of rancour and malice, The first begin­ninge of this nevve Gospel, and the occasion that first moued Luther to He­resie. whiche Martin Luther conceiued against the Dominican Friers in Saxonie, because Albert the Archebishop of Mentz and Electour of the Empire, had admitted them to be Preachers of the Pardon of a Croisade against the Turkes, cōtrary to an Ancient custome, whereby the Augustine Friers, of whom Luther was one, had of longe time ben in possession of that preserment? Is it not wel knowen what afstirre Frier Luther made against Iohn Tetzet the Frier of S. Dominikes order, for that the said Tet­zet was made chiefe preacher of a Pardon. wherein, was greate gaine, and thereby him selfe was bereft of that sweete Morsel, whiche in hope he had almost swallowed downe?

Where you saie, your Religion is spred abroade, and hath taken so mutche encrease against the willes of Princes, and almost maugre the head of al men: that is as false, as your Religion is.

Did not the greate slaughter of your hundred thousand Boures of Germanie signifie to the world, The diete of Smalcald. your cause to haue had the helpe of man: VVhat maie weindge of the great League of Germaine Prin­ces made at the diere of Smalcald, for defence of your Lutheran Gospel?

The troubles and tumultes of Fraunce raised by your Brethren the Huguenots, The Hugu [...]no [...] of Fraunce. and the lament a­ble outrages committed there for your Gospels sake, be they not a witnes of fresh memorie, that your Religion is maintained, set forthe, and defended with power and helpe of men?

That it is nowe at length come euen into Kinges Courtes and Palaices, The comminge of Luthers Go­spel into Princes Courtes is a vveake argumēs for the Truthe. it mouethe wise men no lesse to suspect it, then to praise it.

The B. of Sarisburie.

Ye make your selfe game, M. Hardinge, for that the Preachinge of the Gospel issued first out of Wittenberg, and not from Rome: Notwithstandinge Wit­tenberg is a noble, and a famous Vniuersitie, so generally frequented out of al [Page 34] foreine Countreis, and so mutche commended for al kindes of tongues, and liberal knowledge, as not many the like this day in Christendome.

But be it, that Wittenberg were so simple a burrough, as M. Hardinge ima­gineth. Yet were it not more simple then was the Towne of Nazareth: in whiche poore Towne notwithstandinge, firste appeared the most glorious, and greattest Light of the world. Christian modestie would not disdeigne the Truthe of God in respecte of place. That rather becommethe the Proude lookes of the Scribes, and Phariseis. They despised Christe and his Disciples, and called them Nazarenes, in despite of his Countrie. And there hence, it is likely, first grewe that scorneful question vsed by Nathanael, Iohan. 1 Nunquid ex Nazareth potest aliquid esse boni? Can any good thinge come from Nazareth, so poore a Towne? So Celsus the Heathen despised the Religion of Christe, bicause it came (not from Rome, or Athens, but) from the Barbarous Iewes. Origen. contra Celsum li. 1. For thus Origen reportethe of him: Dogma Christianuns affirmat à Barbaris cepisse ortum, hoc est, à Iudaeis. He saithe, the Doctorue of the Chri­stians had his beginninge onely from a Barbarous Nation, that is to say, from the Iewes.

But this is the mighty hande and power of God. 1 Cor. 1. He chusethe the weake thinges of the world, to confounde the strong: and the foolishe thinges of the world, to confounde the wise. 1. Reg. 17. 2. Thess▪ 2 Matthae. 11. Psal. 24. Galat. 3. He ouerthrowethe the greate Goliath with a seely slinge, and blowethe downe Antichriste in al his glorie with the breathe of his mouthe. I thanke thee, O Father, saithe Christe: for that thou haste hid theise thinges frō the wise, and Politique: and haste reueled the same vnto the simple. The Faithe of Christe is not bounde to place. The whole Earthe is the Lordes, and al the ful­nesse of the same. There is nowe no Distinction of Gréeke, and Barbar [...]us: Wée are al one in Christe Iesu.

Notwithstanding, the Gospel of Christe that wée professe, neither had his beginninge from that Learned Father Doctour Luther, nor came first from Wit­tenberg. It is the same Gospel, Mich. 4. wherof it is Written by the Prophete, The Lawe shal come out of Sion, and the VVoorde of God out of Jerusalem.

Touchinge your longe tale of Doctour Luthers auarice, and sale of Par­dounes, I minde not, nor néede not to answeare you. It is a simple stale sclaun­der. Yet it often seruethe your turne of course, when other thinges beginne to faile. In déede Fréere Tecel the Pardoner made his proclamations vnto the peo­ple openly in the Churches in this sorte: Iohā. Sleidanus, lib. 13. Although a man had lyen with our Lady the Mother of Christe, and had begotten her with Childe, yet were he hable by the Popes power to Pardonne the faulte. Against this, and other like foule Blasphe­mies Doctour Luther firste beganne so speake. Nowe whether this occasion were sufficient, or no, let M. Hardinge him selfe bée the Iudge.

Wée graunte, the Princes, and Estates of the world haue nowe laide theire power to assiste the Gospel. Goddes Holy Name therefore be blessed. Howe be it the Gospel came not first from them. It sprange vp, and grewe by them many wheres against theire willes.

Neither is the Gospel therefore the more to be suspected, bicause it hathe entred into Princes Courtes. Daniel was in Kinge Nabuchodonosors Palaice, and taught him to knowe the Liuinge God. Philip. 1. S: Paule reioiced, and tooke com­forte in his bandes, for that there were some euen in Neroes Courte, that began to hearken to the Gospel. And Eusebius saithe, Valeriani Aula erat iam Ecclesia Dei: Valerian the Emperours Courte was now become the Churche of God. Athanasius saithe vnto the Emperour Iouinian, Conueniens est Pio Principi, &c: The Studie and loue of Godly thinges, Theod. li. 4. ca. 3. Cyrill. in Epist. ad Theodos. & Valentinian. is very meete for a Godly Prince. For so shal you surely haue your harte euer more in the hande of God. Likewise saithe S. Cyril to the Emperours Theodo­sius and Valentinian: Ab ea, quae erga Deum est, pietate, Reipub. vestrae status pendet. [Page 35] The state, and assurance of your Empiere hangethe of your Religion towardes God.

So likewise saithe Sozomenus of the Emperour Arcadius, Sozom. li. 9. ca. 3. [...].

Therefore it behouethe Princes to vnderstande the cases of Goddes Reli­gion, and to receiue Christe with his Gospel into theire Courtes. Psal. 2. Esaie. 49. For God hathe ordeined Kinges, as the Prophete Dauid saithe, to serue the Lorde: and, as Esai saithe, to be Nources vnto his Churche.

If there be occasions of vanities or wickednesse in Princes Courses, yet is there no Courte therein comparable to the Courte of Rome. For there, S. Ber­nard saithe, Mali proficiunt: boni deficiunt: The wicked waxe: the godly wane.

Ye striue in vaine, M. Hardinge: This Counsel is not of Man: it is of God. Yf Princes with theirs powers could not staie it, mutche lesse can you staye it with vntruthes and fables. The poore beguiled soules, of whom ye speake, are neither so séely, Act. 5. nor so simple, but they are able to espie your folies. The Truthe of God wil stande: Vanitie will falle of it selfe. Remēber the Counsel of Gamaliel: Fight not against the Sprite of God.

The Apologie, Cap. 5. Diuision. 3.

For they be not al madde at this daye, so many Free Citties, so many Kinges, so many Princes, whiche haue fallen awaye from the Seate of Rome, and haue rather ioined them selues to the Gospel of Christe.

The B. of Sarisburie.

M. Hardinges answeare hereto is longe: the effecte thereof in short is this:

The Faithe of the Holy Romaine Churche, is the very Catholique Faith, which who so fore­sake, shalbe companions with Diuels in euerlastinge fiere.

And where ye saie, so many Free Citties, so many Kinges, I praie you, howe many free Citties can you name, that haue receiued your Sacramentarie Religion? Nay the Free Citties of Germanie, as many as haue foresaken the Catholique Churche, doo they not persecute you the Sacramentaries? But, say ye, they be fallen from the Seate of Rome. So be the Greekes also in a pointe or twoo: yet condemne they you for Heretiques.

Neither be al the Free Citties in al the Countrie of Germanie fallen from the See Apostolike. Of fiue partes of that great Countrie, at leaste twoo remaine Catholique.

Let vs see, how make ye vp the number of so many Kinges, ye speake of? The Realmes of En­glande, and Scotlande, bicause by Goddes prouidence the Gouernement of them is deuolued to VVo­men, for as mutche as they be no Kinges, though they haue the ful right of Kinges, of them I speake not. Now onely twoo Christened Kinges remaine, the Kinge of Denmarke, and the Kinge of sweden. Geate you nowe vp into your Pulpites like bragginge cockes on the rowst: Flappe your whinges, and crow out aloude, so many free Citties, so many Kinges.

But what thinke you of al the world before this daye? VVere al Citties, al Prouinces, al Coun­tries, al Kinges, al Princes, &c. til Freer Luther came, and with his Nunne tolde vs a newe Doctrine, and controlled al the old, were al these mad?

The Vertuous menne of the Societie of Iesus, haue they not brought many Countries, many Kinges, many Princes to the Faithe of Christe by preachinge the Doctrine of the Catholike Churche? VVee wil not folowe your folishnesse in boastinge, &c. The Faithe professed in the holy Romayne Churche, is now preached in Peru in the Kingdome of Ignamban, in the Kingdome of Monopotapa, in Cambaia, in Giapan, in Cina, in Tartaio, in Basnaga, in Taprobana, in Ormaz, in Ceilon, in Zimor, in Bacian, in Macazar.

The Miracles wrought by these Holy Fathers whiche conuerted these Countries, I trowe, ye wil not accoumpte to be madnesse. Thus your vaine boast in wickednesse wrought by the power of Satan is put to silence, &c.

The B. of Sarisburie.

The Faithe of the Romaine Churche, Greekes. saithe M. Hardinge, is the very Ca­tholique Faithe of Christe: whiche who so foresakethe, bée he Kinge or Empe­rour, he shalbe Companion with Diuels in euerlasting fire. Thus mutche, I trow, M. Hardinge learned of the Countrefeite Decrée of Anacletus. For thus it pleaseth him to glose, Anaclet. Epist. 1. and interlace the woordes of Christe: Super hanc Petram, id est, Super Ecclesiam Romanam, aedificabo Ecclesiam meam: Vpon this Rocke, that is to saye, Vpon the Churche of Rome, I wil build my Churche. And therfore Pope Bonifacius, for a ful resolution of the mater saithe thus: Extra. De Ma­ior. &. Obedien, Vnam Sanctam. Glossa in eodem. Cap. Subesse Romano Pontifici, omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, & pronuntiamus, omnino esse de necessitate salutis: Wee declare, saye, determine, and pronounce, that it is of the necessitie of Saluation for euery mortal creature, to be subiecte vnto the Bishop of Rome. And the Glose likewise vpon the same, Quicquid saluatur, est sub Summo Pontifice: What so euer creature is saued, is vn­der the Highest Bishop. Here is no mention neither of Christe, nor of his Gospel. Sal­uation, & Damnation hangeth onely of the B. of Rome. This thing once graunted, the case is cleare: The Pope him selfe hathe resolued the doubte. What should wee néede a better trial? Cornelius Episc. Bitont. in Conci. Tridentino. Notwithstāding Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto in the late Chapter at Tridente, of the Bishop, and Holy Sée of Rome saithe thus, Vtinam à Religione ad Superstitionem, à Fide ad Infidelitatem, à Christo ad Antichristum, à Deo ad Epicurum velut prorsus vnanimes non declinassent, dicentes in corde impio, & ore im­pudico, Non est Deus: O would God (the Pope and his Cardinales) had not fal [...]en with common consente, and altogeather, from true Religion to Superstition, from Faithe to Infidelitie, from Christe to Antichriste, from God to Epicure: saieinge with wicked harte, and shamelesse mouthe, Psal. 14. Bernard. in Can­tic. Canticor. There is no God. In like sense, of the same Bishoppes, and See of Rome S. Bernard saithe, Serui Christi seruiunt Antichristo: The Seruauntes of Christe serue Antichriste. Cornelius saithe, the Bishoppes of Rome are fallen to Supersti­tion, to Infidelitie, to Antichriste, to Epicure: & are not ashamed to saye, There is no God. Yet, saithe M. Hardinge, the Faithe of Rome is the Catholique Faithe: & who so departethe from the same, be he Kinge or Emperour, he shalbe companion with the Diuel in Helle fire. And thus to saye, is no méere madnesse.

That the Princes, and frée Citties of Germanie euer persecuted vs, it is vtterly vntrue, and like the reste of your tales. They reioice in God in our be­halfe: and beinge there, they receiued vs vnder theire protection, and offered vs sutche fréedome, and courtesie, as they seldome offered the like to any Nation. Certaine of them by your owne Confession, haue already agréed to al the pointes of our Doctrine. But none of them al, no not one would euer suffer the same Doc­trine of ours to be condemned.

What the Grecians this daye thinke of vs, I cannot telle. Notwith­standinge it appeareth by their letters written purposely to the Churches of Bo­hemia, that they allowe wel of our Doctrine, and vtterly condemne yours. For thus they writte vnto them: Epist. Ecclesiae Constantinopoli­tanae ad Ecclesiā Pragensem. In Concil. Late­ranen. Cap. 4. [...]: VVherefore, louing Bre­thren, and Children, if it be so as wee heare, and hope, make haste, that wee maie ioine togea­ther in Vnitie. And againe, thus it is recorded in the late Councel of Laterane, Graeci in tantum coeperunt abominari Latinos, vt si quando Sacerdotes Latini super eorum altaria celebrassent, ipsi non vellent priùs in illis sacrificare, quàm ea, tanquam per hoc in­quinata lauissent: The Greekes beganne so mutche to abhorre the Latines, that, if it had happe­ned the Latine Priestes had Ministred vpon theire aultars, they would not afterwarde make oblation vpon the same, before they had wasshed them: as thinkinge theire Aultars defiled by the Latines handeling. Wherefore, M. Hardinge, what so euer the Grecians thinke of vs, it appeareth hereby, they vtterly refuse your Communion, & condemne you for Heretiques.

[Page 37] But who would haue thought, M. Hardinge had benne so skilful in proporti­ons? The whole countrie of Germanie, saithe he, beinge diuided in equal por­tions, twoo of fiue remaine stil in y ^• obedience of the See of Rome. Wée geue God thankes, it is, as it is. In déede certaine townes subiecte to the Bishoppes, in outwarde vsage of theire Churches, remaine stil, as they were before. Yet neuer­thelesse where the Churches are Popishe, the people of al sortes are Protestantes, and loue the Truthe, and are mutche ashamed of your folies. It was Goddes secrete prouidence, that certaine of yours should remaine emongst vs a season, as the Cananites remained emongst the people of Israel. Otherwise within fewe yeres ye would denie, that euer your disorders had benne so greate.

It is very harde, and in manner not possible, to conuert the whole people of so greate a countrie al at once. The Heares of a mans Bearde, or Head neuer waxe white al togeather. Luc. 13. Christe compareth the Kingdome of God vnto Leauen, whiche the woman takethe, and laieth in a lumpe of dowgh. It worketh, and laboureth by [...], and litle, Eusebius. vntil it haue Leauened al the whole. In this sorte Eusebius séeme [...] to compare the twoo partes of the Romaine Empire dissentinge in Iudgement of Religion: the East parte to the Night, and the Weaste to the Daye. Iohan. 12. 1. Corin. 15. But Christe wil drawe al vnto him selfe: and then shal God be al in al.

But here to matche our so many Kinges, and so many Princes, M. Hardinge hath brought vs a manie of newes out of Ignamban, Monopotapa, Cambaia, Giapan, Bisnaga, Ormoz, and other strange, and far Countries. There, he saithe, so many, and so many Kinges, and Princes are lately Conuerted, and brought to the obedience of the See of Rome. I marueile, he saithe not, the Man in the Moone was likewise newly Christened, to make vp the Muster.

Howe be it al these thinges muste néedes be true. For Christes owne Fe­lowes, or, as M. Hardinge vttereth it in better wise, the Holy Fathers of the So­cietie of Iesus, haue sente home woorde as wel hereof, as also of sundrie Miracles wrought by the same Holy Fathers. Verily, so the name of Christe be publisshed, whether it be by them, or by vs, by Light, or by Darkenes, Goddes Holy name be blessed. But of many theire Miracles I haue no skil. For thus these Holy Fathers write, as it is saide before, that with Holy Water they haue driuen Mise out of the countrie, Copus Dialo. c. Pa. 18. Alexander de Hales, par. 4. quaes. 53. mem. 4. Ar. 3. solut. 2. Nicola. Lyra in Daniel. Ca. 14. and made Barren Women to beare Children, and sutche o­ther the like marueilous Miracles. Neither are wée bounde of necessitie to be­leue al sutche Miracles what so euer, without exception. Alexander of Hales saith, In Sacramēto apparet Caro, interdū humana procuratione, interdū operatione Diabolica: In the Sacramente it selfe there appeareth Fleash, sometime by the conuciance of men, some­time by the woorkinge of the Diuel. Likewise saithe Nicolaus Lyra, Aliquando in Ecclesia fit maxima deceptio Populi in Miraculis fictis à Sacerdotibus, vel eis adhaerenti­bus, propter lucrum: Sometime euen in the Churche the People is shamefully deceiued with fained Miracles wrought either by the Priestes, or els by theire companions, for lukers, sake. Miracles be not euermore vndoubted proofes of True Doctrine. Augusti contra Faust Li. 13. Therefore S. Au­gustine saithe vnto Faustus the Manichee: Miracula non facitis: quae si faceretis, ta­men ipsa in vobis caueremus: Ye woorke no Miracles: and yet if ye wrought any, at your handes wee would take heede of them. Hieremi. 23. The Prophete Hieremie saithe, Seduxerunt Populum meum in mendacijs suis, & in Miraculis suis: They haue deceiued my People by theire Lies, and by theire Miracles.

Touchinge the Conuersion of the Easte India, Vesputius writeth, there were many Godly Bishoppes there, Vesputius. and sundrie whole countries Conuerted, and Christened, longe before that either the Portugales, or the Iesuites came thither: and yet had neuer heard of the name of the Bishop of Rome.

As for the rest of the Weast Spanishe Indies, the People there liued not [Page 38] onely without al manner knowledge of God, but also wilde, and naked, without any Ciuile gouernmente. [...]etr Martyr Mediolanen. offeringe vp mennes bodies in Sacrifice▪ drinkinge mens bloud, and eatinge mennes fleash. Some of them woorshipped the Sonne, and the Moone: some, an ancient olde Trée: some, what so euer they sawe first in the mor­ninge, they thought the same for that day to be theire God. Some woorshipped certaine familiar Diuels, and vnto them Sacrificed yonge boies, and girles.

Beinge in this miserable state, and naturally by the very sense, and iudge­ment of common reason abhorringe and lothinge theire owne blindnesse, what marueile is it, if they were easie to be leadde into any Religion, specially carrieing [...] sutche a shewe of apparel, and Holy Ceremonies?

So the greate Kinge of Tartarie of late, Vesputius in Nouo Orbe, fo. 485. findinge him selfe and his people without any manner Religion, was contented to borrowe some Religion of the Tu [...]kes. For men would rather clothe them selues with leaues, and barkes, then to goe quite naked: and rather eate Akecornes, then die for hunger.

And what if God would vse this meane for the time, after warde the better to leade the saide nations to the cleare Light of the Gospel, as [...]. Augustine saith, the shoomaker vseth his bristle not to sewe withal, but to drawe [...] his threede? No doubte, M. Hardinge, if your Doctrine, and ours were laide togeather, the verie Indians them selues, be they neuer so rude, woulde be able to sée. a great difference.

But let the Bishop of Rome winne abroade, and lose at home. You remem­ber the olde Prouerbe. Dionysius Corinthi. Dionysius when he had lost his King­dome at home at Syracusae, he gotte him selfe to Corinthe, and there became a Schoolemaister, and so séemed to continue a Kingedome stil.

Wée make no boaste, M. Hardinge, nor g [...]ate vs to rowste, as ye say, nor [...]lappe our winges in the behalfe of theise Princes, and Countries, so many, and so many, as it pleaseth you to sporte, that haue submitted them selues to the Go­spel of Christ. Neither are the same, so many, and so many, so sewe as you would séeme to make them. The Kingedome of England, the Kingedome of Scotland, the Kingedome of Denmarke, the Kingedome of Sweden: the Dukes of Saxonie, the Duke of Brunswike, the Palsgraue of Rhene, the Duke of Wirtenberg, the Landtgraue of Hessia, the Marques of Brandeburg, the Prince of Russia, al other the Earles, and noble men, and greate Citties throwgh the whole countrie of Germanie, the mighty common weales of Heluetia, Rhetia, Vallis Tellina, with so many hundred thousandes bisides in Fraunce, Italie, Spaine, Hungarie, and in the Kingedome of Poole: Certainely al these wel reckened cannot séeme so [...]ewe, as ye would haue it. Yewisse, M. Hardinge, it gréeueth you ful [...]ore, they are so many. Yf God of his mercy blesse those thinges. that he hath mercifully begonne. it wilbe high time for you shortly to séeke a newe refuge.

We boaste not our selues of these thinges. There is no cause It is not the woorke of man: it is the onely hand of God. Dauid saith, Let the Heauens reioice: let the Earth be glad: Psal. 19. The voice (of the Apostles) is sounded abroade into al the world: Luc. 2. The Angels of God sange, Apocalyp. 19. Glorie be to God on high: Tertull. contra Iudeos. The Angel in the A­pocalyps crieth amaine, Cecidit, cecidit Babylon illa magna: Down, down is fallen that greate Babylon: Tertullian saithe, Parthi, Medi, Elamitae, &c. The P [...]rthians, the Medi­ans, the Elamites, the people of Mesopotamia, of Armenia, of Phrygia, of Cappadocia, of Pontus, of Asia, of Pamphilia, of Aegypte, of Aphrica, of Rome, of H [...]rusalem, of Ge­tusia, of Mauritania, of Spaine, of Fraunce, of Britannie, of Sarmatia, of D [...]cia, of Germanie, of Scythia and many other nations, and Prouinces, knowen▪ and vnknowen h [...]ue receiued the Gospel of Christe. Thus saide they, the Angels, & Prophetes of God, & Holy Fathers, and yet without boastinge, or fléeinge to rowste, or clappinge of whinges. Geue vs leaue therefore, M. Hardinge, in the like case to solace our selues with the consi­tion [Page 39] of Goddes mighty, and merciful woorkes, and humbly to reioice at the tri­umphe of the Crosse of Christe.

Arnobius saithe vnto the Heathens: Ne nobis de nostra frequentia blandiamut. Multi nobis uidemur: sed Deo admodùm pauci sumus. Nos gentes nationes (que) distingui­mus: Deo vna Domus est mundus hic totus: Let vs not flatter our selues of our greate multitudes. Arnobius con­tra Gentes l [...]. 8. Vnto our selues wee seeme many: but vnto God wee are but fewe. VVee put difference bitweene Nation, and Nation: But vnto God this whole worlde is but one house. This counsel, M. Hardinge, is wholesome for either parte to folowe, that who so wil reioice, may reioice in the Lorde.

M. Hardinge.

Sith Christe hath geuen to the Pope in Peter, Iohan. 22. whose laufull successour hè is, commission to feede his Sheepe: Holesome feedinge beinge thend of that commission, it is not to be doubted, but he that ordeined thend, hath also ordeined meanes belonginge to thend. Therefore it is not the dutie of a good and humble sheepe, to geue foorthe a malicious surmise, that the shepheard wil not see that he seeth in deede, but rather wil withstand the knowen Truthe. And what so euer sheepe be disobedient, and refuse to heare the voice of their sheepeheard, whom Christe hath made ouer them, the same be not of Christes folde. And mainteininge contrary Doctrine to their shepeheardes true Doctrine. iustly may they be accoumpted Heretikes.

The B. of Sarisburie.

To be Peters lauful Successour, it is not sufficient to leape into Peters stalle. Lauful Succession standeth not onely in possession of place, but also, and mutche rather in Doctrine and Diligence. Yet the Bishoppes of Rome, as if there were nothinge els required, euermore put vs in minde, and tel vs many gaye tales of theire Succession, Pope Symmachus saithe, In Papa si desint bona acquisita per meritum, Distin. 40. Non nos. sùfficiunt quae à loci Praedecessore praestantur: Glosa ibid. in verb. Cùm Hae­reditatem. If the Pope wante vertūes, Dis. 40. Non est facile. and goodnesse of his owne, Alphonsus Con­tra. Hares. L. yet the vertues that are geuen him by (Peter) his predecessour, 1. cap. 9. are suffi­cient. And the Glose vpon the same: Petrus fecit Papam haeredem bonitatis suae: Peter hath made the Pope Heire of his goodnesse.

But S. Hierome saithe farre otherwise: Non sanctorum filij sunt, qui tenent lo­ca sanctorum: They be not euermore Holy mennes Children, that sitte in the roumes of Holy menne. Likewise saithe Alphonsus de Castro, a special assistante of that syde, Quamuis teneamur [...]x Fide credere, verum Petri Successorem esse Supremum totius Ec­clesiae Pastorem, tamen non tenemur eadem Fide credere, Leonem, aut Clementem esse verum Petri Successorem: Notwithstanding we be bounde by Faithe to beleue, that the true Successour of Peter is y ^e highest Shepheard of the whole Churche: yet are we not bounde by the same Faithe to beleue, that Leo, or Clement (being Eishoppes of Rome) are the true Suc­cessours of Peter.

The woordes, Iohan. 20 that Christe spake vnto Peter, importe no Souerainetie, but [Page 40] were common to al the rest. Head Shepherd. S. Cyprian saithe, Hoc erant vti (que) coeteri Apostoli, quod fuit Petrus, pari cosortio praediti & Honoris, & Potestatis: Cyprian. de sim­plicita. praelato. The rest of the Apostles were euen the same, that Peter was, a [...] endewed with like felowship both of Honour. and of Power. What special priuilege then can the Pope claime by the Succession of S. Peter? Or what talketh he of féeding the whole flocke of Christe, y ^t neuer feedeth any parte therof? wherin is y ^e Pope like S. Peter? or wherein euer was S. Peter like y ^e Pope?

Yet M. Hardinge doubteth not to geue his Definitiue Sentence, vvhat so euer Sheepe is not obedient to the Headshepheard, is not of the flocke of Christ. The Pope also him selfe boldely warranteth the same. Thus he saithe of him selfe, Quicun (que) praeceptis nostris non obedierit, Dist. 81. si qui sunt: In glosa. peccatum Idololatriae, & Paganitatis incurrit: Who so euer obeieth not our commaundementes, falleth into the sinne of Idolatrie, and Infidelite. And therefore Pope Steuin thus auanceth the authoritie of his owne See: Sacrosancta Domina nostra Romana Ecclesia: Dist. 79. Opor­ [...]ebat. Our Holy Lady the Churche of Rome. Iohan. 10.

But Christe speaking of him selfe saithe, Luc. 6. I am the True Sheepheard: And, Galat. 2. Who so heareth these woordes of myne. and doeth the same. I wil liken him to a wise man. S. Paule beinge but one of the shéepe, saithe thus, I withstoode Peter ( as M. Hardinge saithe, the Head shéepheard) euen vnto his face, for that he walked not vprightly to the Gospel of Christe. Yet was he a shéepe of the flocke of Christe. Hostiensis in this case seemeth reasonable: De concess. prae­bendae. Propo­suit. Hostien. De Rescriptis. Si quando. ver. Sed nunquid. His woordes be these Omnes debent obedi [...]e Papae, quicquid praecipiat: nisi sequi possit peccatum: Al men must obey the Pope, what so euer he commaunde: so there fo­lowe no sinne of his commaundement. Likewise Feliuus a notable Canoniste: Non ob­stante Plenitudine Potestatis, quae est in Papa, non est obediendum ei, peccato imminente: Notwithstandinge the fulnesse of power, that is in the Pope, when sinne shal folowe his bid­dinge, we may not obey him.

Yf the Pope wil claime the Headpast ourship ouer the whole flocke of Christe, or rather if he wilbe taken for any Pastour at al, let him then féede the Flocke: Let him breake the breade of Life, without Leauen: Let him speake the woorde of God truely, without fables: and wée wil heare him. Otherwise S. Augustine hath war­ned vs: Augusti. in Io­han. tracta. 46. Sua si docere velint, [...]olite audire, nolite facere. Certè enim tales sua quaerunt: non quae sunt Iesu Christi: If they wil teache you Doctrines of theire owne, see, ye heare them not: (and what so euer sutche thing they commaunde you) see, ye doo it not. For vndoubtedly sutche men se [...]ke for their owne maters: and not the thinges that perteine to Je­sus Christe.

M. Hardinge.

Speake of Pope Pius, what ye wil, and what ye can. Neither your praise can aduaunce his e­stimation, nor your dispraise abase it. His singular vertues be wel knowen. God is highly to be praised for that he hath prouided for his flock so good a shepheard. As for you, as [...]e taketh you to be men, so not his brethren, bicause ye haue cut of your selues from the Catholike churche. Your reasons haue ben [Page 41] diligently and exactly examined already. A comparison betvvene the Defenders and Balsasar King of Babylon. No good vvrought by reasoning vvith Heretikes. In respect of your reasones Learning, and Holy Scriptures whiche ye bring, ye are founde suche as Balsasar Kinge of Babylon [...]as signified by the hande, that appeared writing before him in the wall.

What it is, Heretikes to be admitted to reasoning, it is and hath ben euermore too wel knowen. Be they neuer so throughly confuted, they yelde not. Ouercome they may be, reformed th [...] wil not be. Therein no good lightly is done.

The B. of Sarisburie.

Yf Pope Pius w [...]te so good [...], who so, [...] thy a Passout for the Churche of God, why then did his Cat d [...]lles of thee [...] so [...] by trea­son, and conspiracie to oppose him, [...] you say▪ so good a man▪ [...] it were not so, Oratio Pij Papae. why then did he himselfe [...] thereof so vtterly in [...]n Oration pro­nounced openly in Rome in the Consist [...]te▪ Is it not lauful for so good a man to liue in Rome? Is the same Proclamation nowe practised emong the Cardinalles in Rome, [...]. that was sometime vsed in the Councel house at Ephesus, Nemo nostrum frugi esto. Let no good man be emongste vs:

Ye safe. Pope Pius would not vouchesaue to cal vs his Brethren. No marueile, séeing his owne dèere, and first begotten Children the Cardinales would no lenger haue him to be theire Father. Mattha e. 28. It is sufficient for vs, Iohan. 20. that Christe the Sonne of God is contente to cal vs his Brethren.

Ye haue Excommunicate vs, as the Ph [...]riseis did the Apostles, bicause wée speake vnto you in the name of Christe. But your owne Lawe saithe, Excommuni­ca [...]us non poiest Excommunicate: He that is Excommunic [...]t him selfe, cannot geue Sen­tence to Excommunicate others: 11. Quae. 3. Cui est illata. And your owne Gelasius saithe. Mala. 2. Neminem ligate debet iniqua Sententia: A wicked Sentence (of Excommunication) bindeth noman. But before al others God him selfe saithe, Ego Benedicam Maledictionibus vestris: I wil Blesse, that you Curse, saithe the Lorde. You saie, you haue weighed our Reasons, and haue founde them too light. Now surely that is a good Light answeare. Euen in sutche Light sorte Iulianus the Apostata wrote sometime vnto the Christian Bi­shoppes: Sozomen. li. [...]. Cap. 18. [...]: I haue readde your reasons: I know them wel yenough: and therefore I haue condemned them. But the same Christian Bishoppes answeared him againe, [...]. It may be, ye haue readde our reasons: but ye vnderstoode them not. For if ye vnderstoode them, ye would not con­demne them. 1. Corin. 2. As S. Paule also likewise saithe, Nam si cognouissent, nunquam Dominū Gloriae crucifixissent: Yf they had knowen, they would neuer haue Crucified y ^e Lord of Glorie.

But vnto many of your side, M. Hardinge, I feare me wée may ouer truely say as S. Hilarie saithe vnto the Arian Heretiques: Hilar. De Syno­dis aduersus Arianos. Verè Deum nesciunt: at (que) vtinam n [...]scirent: Cum procliuiori enim venia ignorarent: In deede they know not God: and would God they kn [...]w him not: Then theire ignorance were the easier to be pardoned.

You saie, There is no Disputation to be had with Heretiques. Yet your Fa­thers in the Councel of Basile, Concil Basil. Concil. Trident. and your Frendes in the last Councel of Trident, I wil not say, had Disputations, but certainely yelded, and gaue place vnto the Bo­hemiens, & vnto sutche others, as you cal Heretiques. But ye haue reason: ye can foresée your best aduantage. It were the readiest way to disclose your shame You ne­uer yet càme to Disputation, but some of your companie shranke away from you, As I before haue reported out of Tertullian: Tertull. in Apo­logetico. Veritas nihil veretur, 1. Regum. 5. nisi abscondi: Truthe feareth nothing, but lest shee be hid. If the God of Israel come into the Temple, the Idole of Dagon must needes fal downe.

M. Hardinge.

Ye alleage t'woo causes, The first is, lest by holding your peace, ye should seeme to graunte a fault. The second, Tvvo causes of making the A­pologie. which ye make more specialie because by no meanes ye could haue audience in the late ge­neral Councel. Your second cause is false, as hereafter it shalbe shewed. Your first is naught, as that which sheweth youre pride, vaine glorie, and pertinacie. VVel. ye do but as Heretikes before you haue euer done. It must not be looked for at your handes, I [...] Councels any man may shevve his opinion, but none maye geue a voice, or suf­frage, and Sen­tence Definitiue, but onely Bi­shoppes. that ye acknowlege any fault. For that were Humilitie, which vertue al Heretikes be farre from &c. To geue a voice or suffrage, and vtter Sentence definitiue it per­teineth onely to Bishops. Now ye be no Bishops, but some of you mere laie men, and most of you Apostates.

VVhether the Ambassadours and Diuines of the Princes of Getmanie and of the free Citties there. were at any time vpon any consideration of their misliked demeanour, or for any other iust cause re­strained from the companie of the Fathers in the late general Councel at Tren [...]: Againe whether Pope Iulius the third prouided by any write that none of your sort should be suffred to speake in the Councel, the cause of recantation excepted: what ye say touching this mater, because ye say it without proufe. We haue found you in so many other pointes of greater importance so farre to steppe aside from truth. that for this we cannot beleue you. But that your selues by no meanes could haue audience in the Coun­cel at Trent, and that the Ambassadours and Diuines of the Princes and free Citties of Germanie were from thence quite shutte out: Three safe Con­duites graunted An accoumpt of faithe by the Defenders yel­ded vp in vvri­ting, vvithout due order in al respectes. how true that is. I reporte me to the three safe conductes. whiche the three Popes, vnder whom that Councel was holden, graunted forth and confirmed in that behalfe. VVherfore belie the councel nomore, complaining that ye coulde not there haue audience and be heard.

Ye yeld vp an accoumpt of your faithe in writing, ye say. But to whom doe ye yeld it vp? and by whom is it yelded? from whom commeth y ^e same? Do ye acknowlege no lauful [...]udge, no lauful consilio­rie in the whole world? Committe ye your whole mater to the temeritie of the people? VVhy haue ye not set your names to the Booke, that conteineth the profession of your faithe, and of your whole conscience.

The B. of Sarisburie.

Here, M. Hardinge thought it answeare sufficient, to vpbraide vs with su­spicion of Untruthe. How be it I haue no doubte, but both the Truthe, and the Un­truthe by the particulares wil soone appeare.

[Page 43] First, that al Bishoppes, hauing voice Definitiue, and interest in Councelles, are solemnely sworne in al theire Decrées, & Canons to vphold the Authoritie of y ^e Pope, he thought it the wisest way to dissemble it. For it had ben great wante of modestie, to denie it. The fourme of the othe recorded in the Popes owne Decre­talles, Extra. De Iure­iuran. Ego N. is this; Ego N. &c. Papa [...]um Romanae Ecclesiae, & regulas Sanctorum Patrum adiutor no ad defendendum, & retinendū, saluo ordine meo, contra omnes homines: IN. sweare, that I wilbe an helper, to defende, and mainteine the Papacie of the Churche of Rome, and y ^e Rules of the Holy Fathers (y ^e Popes) mine owne order saueds, against ol men aliue. But these Rules, & Priuileges of y ^e Holy Fathers the Popes are these: Extra. de Elect. & Electi potest. Singificasti. That y ^e Pope is aboue al General Coūcelles: Extra. de transta. Episcopi, Quanto: In gloss. That his bare wil must be holden as a lawe: Extra. de Con­cess. Praben. Proposuit. In gloss. That, what so euer he doo, noman may say vnto him, why doo you thus: Pighius. Li. 6. Cap. 13. That his iudge­ment is more certaine, then the iudgement of al the worlde: 9. q. 3. Nemo. In glossa. That if the whole world geue Sentence in any mater cōtrarie to y ^e Popes pleasure, yet it séemeth, we are bound to stand to the Iudgement of the Pope: &, M. Hardinge, Fol. 334. b. as M. Hardinge saithe, That y ^e Pope, what so euer he saie, or doo, as beinge Pope, can neuer erre, These, & other the like be the Priuileges, that the Pope claimeth vnto him selfe. Al which the Bi­shoppes are bound by oths. & by theire allegeance to defend against al menne aliue.

Now, where you say, that Bishoppes onely haue Sentence Definitiue in the Councel, ye seeme willingly, & without cause to reporte Untruthe. For Pius Se­cundus being him selfe a Pope, would haue tolde you the contrarie. These be his woordes: Aeneas Sylui. de gestis Concil. Constātien. Li. 1. Apparet, alios, quam Episcopos, in Concilijs habuisse vocem decidentem: It is plaine, that certaine others biside Bishoppes, had voice Definitiue in the Councelles. Likewise saithe Gerson. Iohan. Gerson, Quae veritates sint Credendae. Corol. 4. Etiam ad Laicos hoc potest extendi: & plus aliquando, quàm ad multos Clericorū: This (Priuilege of geuing Sentēce in Councel) may be extended euen vnto y ^• [...]aye sort: yea and y ^t oftētimes better then vnto many Priestes. But here of herafter [...] at large.

But whether we be Bishoppes or no, M. Harding is no competent, nor indis­serēt Iudge. For Sallust. in bell [...] Catilin. who so wil Iudge vprightly, must be voide of anger, hatred loue, enuie, & other like affections. Whiche Sentence being otherwise profane, is vsed & halowed by y ^e Apostolique Legates in the Cōcil. Iriden. sub Paulo. 3. Councel of Trident: Surely the Godly say, y ^t, as your Bishoppes doo no part of Bishoppes dewtie, & therefore in déede are no Bishoppes at al: so your late Couente at Trident, what so euer glorious name it pleaseth you to geue it, yet notwithstanding, in déede, & verily was no Councel.

Whether Pope Iulius by his Bulie vtterly embarred the Diuines, & Embas­sadours of y ^e Princes, and frée Citties of Germanie from al audience, & Disputation in the Councel, or no, I report me to Pope Iulius owne Bulle touching the same. His woordes be these, Breue Iulij. 3. Citatur à Cal­uino. Eri [...] Conciliū, vt qui temerè loquuti sunt, aut dicta recantat [...]i ve­niant, aut eorum maudita causa, in executionem iam ordinatarum. Constitutionū Haeretici declarentur, & condemnenturi There shalbe a Councel, that they th [...] haue spoken rashly, ei­ther may recante theire saieinges, or els without farther hearing, or reasoning of the mater, they may be denounced and condemned for Heretiques, according to the Constitutions already mode.

Likewise saithe Iohn Sleidane, Iohan Sleidan▪ touchinge the Conference had some time at Au­gusta: Lib. 13. In Colloquio frequenter ad initium actionis hoc dicebantinolle se vel tantillum de Opinione, & Doctrina sua decedere: sed quicquid facerent, eo fieri, vt in sententiam suàm nos adducerent: In the Conference y ^• was had bitwene vs, and them, they told vs at the firste. that they would not yelde one whit, from theire Opinion, and Doctrine: But that, what so euer they did, they did it onely to the intent, to bring vs to theire Judgement.

I could farther allege Matthias Flacius Illyricus, Iohannis Fabritius Mon­tanus, Petrus Paulus Vergerius the Bishop of Iustinopolis, to like purpose. But perhaps M. Hardinge would refuse theire Authorities, & cal them partial. Yet in a mater so euident, & so openly knowen, it had ben great folie for them to dissemble. Illyricus saithe, Illyri. in Recu­satione Con. Tri­tini. Nostri audiri non potuerunt, quamuis id Amplissimi Caesaris Legati Orarent: Our Diuines, and Oratours coulde is no wise bee hearde, notwithstan­dinge the Emperours moste woorthie Embassadours hadde desired it. Iohannes Fabri­tius [Page 44] saithe, Councel of Tridēt. Fateor extensionem fuctam esse ad alias nationes: Iohan. Fabriti. Sed tamen additur, eam for­mam non nisi ad illos pertine [...]e, qui resipiscere, & ad Ecclesiae gremium redire velint: I graunt, the Saue conduite was extended to other Nations: But it is added withal, that the same fourme, or libertie should perteine to none others, but onely to them, that would repe [...]te, and returne to the bosome of the Churche, And againe he saith, Tantum aburant ab A [...]ce Di­sputation̄, vt ne ad vestibulum quidem accedere potuerint: The Diuines of the Princes of Germanie were kept so for of from the high Castel of Disputation, that they could not be suffe­red to approche to the entrie. Petr. Paulus Nergerius De Concil Trident Petrus Paulus Uergerius saithe, that the Bishop of Ue­gla in Dalmatia was [...] shaken vp in the same [...], and threatened with Depriuation, and other extremities, onely for a litle in [...]ling of the Truthe.

Now d [...] it, what [...] Authorities? Noman is herein so plaine and [...], M. Hard fo. 20. M. Hardinge him selfe. M. H. fo. [...]. b. This is his determinate answeare, M. H. fo. 174. a. and ful resolution in the case: M. H. fo. 333. b. Your reason [...] no more to be hearde, onlesse ye repente, and [...] your er rours▪ Againe, Our doctrine hath ben approued too longeth be put a [...] in these daies. Againe, [...]che wicked [...], as ye haue made ie, it is lanful, to make, neither [...] Councel, not without Councel. Againe, vve tel you, that your change of religion, and [...] Heresies ought not be haue benne [...], nor without the Bishop of [...] commanndemente, nor with his commaundemente. These be your woordes, M. Hardinge: This you say, you tel vs plainely [...]and therefore, I trowe, we must beleue you. And so ye séeme to conclude with the woordes written in the P [...]yhete Hieremie: Hieremi. 44 Non audiemus Verbum, quod loquissus es nobis in nomine Domini sed faciendo faciemus omne verbū, quod egredietur ex o [...]e nost [...]: VVe wil not beare the VVoorde, that thou hast spoken to vs in the name of the Lorde: But we wil doo euery Woord, that shal come from our owne mouthe.

Was may therefore say of you, Augustin. Epi­s [...]ola. [...]52. [...] Augustine sometimes saide of the Here­tiques the Donatistes: Cùm omnis [...] suspensa expectares, in tanta collectione quid [...] ageretu [...]: Quare hoc? nisi quia causam suam malam sciebant, & facillime se posse conuin [...]i, si ageretur, dubitare non poterant? When euery body was looking carefully, what should be doone in so great Assemblie, they ( The Do­natistes Heretiques) laboured what they could, that nothing vtterly should be doone. And why for They knew [...]theire cause was n [...]ught: and could not doubte, but that if any conference, or Disputation should be had, they should soone be reproued.

M. Hardinge.

I see wel, we must looke to your fingers. Ye spit foorth your gal, and cholar by and by at the first. Through your whole Booke in woorde ye pretend Truthe, zeale, plainnes, and sober dealing: But in deede power out litle other then Lieing, Spite, Scoffes, and immoderate railing. The effecte of the rest in this: Ye haue ioined your selues to the Synagog of Antichriste. Ye serue the stage, ye haue begonnt to playe your Tragedie on falsely, shamefully, darkely, and guilefully: your bragges, and promises, your crakes of Goddes Holy woorde, your errours, your Heresies, your contagious poison, your sclaun­ders, your newe Cleregies Doctrine, &c.

The B. of Sarisburie.

The Saieing of S. Hierome is auouched by y ^• like Saiyng of Ruffinus an Aun­cient writer. Thus he saithe. Vnam notam Haereseos qui dissimulat, non est Christianus: Who so dissembleth, when he is called Heretique, is no Christian man. For the rest blame me not, good Christian Reader, yf I vse no moe woordes, then néede requireth. If I thought it woorthy the while, I could answeare al these thinges more at large. I trust, in our whole Apologie there appeareth no sutche immoderate kinde of rai­ling. But if I should folow M. Hardinges humoure, and write but the one halfe of that he writeth, then perhappes I might woorthily be called a railer.

M. Hardinge.

The Definition ye seeme to make of Heresie, is not sufficient. For as ye define it, so euery deadly sinne is Heresie. The Defenders Definition of Heresie founde insufficient. The true Definition of Heresie. For euery deadly sinne is a forsaking of Saluation, a renouncing of Gods Grace, a de­parting from the Body and Sprite of Christe. Heresie is a false Doctrine against the right beleefe, by him that professeth the Faithe stubbournly either auouched or called in doubte. In which Definition this woorde, stubbournly, is added, bicause it is not errour onely in those thinges that be of Faithe, but stubbournes in errour, that maketh an Heretike, as S. Augustine teacheth. VVho (saithe he) in the Church of Christe sauer any thing that is vnholsome and crooked, if being sharply admonished to sauer that is hole and right, they resist stubbournly, and wil not amend their venemous and deadly Doctrines, but stande to defend them, the [...] be Heretikes. But now the lawe of vpright dealing specially in Gods cause so requiring, Lib. 18. de Ciui [...] Dei, cap. 51. ye must pardon vs. if, as among husbandmen we cal a rake, a rake, a spade, a spade, a mat­tocke, a mattocke: so among Diuines, we cal Heresie, heresie, and likewise, falsehed, lieing, sclaundering, crafte, hypocrisie, Apostasie, malice. blasphemie, euery such crime, by his proper name without al glosing.

The B. of Sarisburie.

Ye saie, This is not the right Definition of Heresie. Verily, M. Hardinge, this is but a simple quarrel. It was not my minde in this place to vtter any Definition [Page 46] of Heresie, either right, or wronge. You knowe right wel, that sutche curiositie in this kinde of writinge is not néedeful. It is sufficient, our woordes be true, although they include no Definition.

For iust proufe of Heresie three thinges necessarily are required. First, that it be an errour: Secondly, that it be an errour againste the Truthe of Goddes woorde: For otherwise euery errour maketh not an Heresie. Thirdly, that it be stoutly, and wilfully maineteined. Otherwise an errour in Goddes Truthe with­out wilful mainteinance, is not an Heresie. S. Augustine saith, Errare possum, Haereticus esse non possum: Augustinus. In an errour I may be: but an Heretique I cannot be.

It was not so necessarie in this mater, so precisely to séeke vp Definitions. I thought it sufficient, onely to declare the horrour of Heresie. For as touchinge the Definition, S. Augustine saithe, Quid sit Haeresis, regulari quadam Definitione com­prehendi, sicut ego existimo, aut omnino non potest, Augustin. ad Quoduultdeum aut difficillim [...] potest: To expresse by orderly Definition, what thinge maketh an Heretique, as I iudge, it is either impossible, or very harde. Therefore you, M. Hardinge, and your felowes are the more blame woorthy, for y ^• of euery your fantasies ye haue made an Heresie. Ludouicus Viues one of your owne Schoole thus complaineth thereof: Ludouicus viues De Corrupt. Artib Haeresis nomen rebus leuissimis impingitur: Dis. 22. Omnes. Idem facerent Scotistae de Thomistis, nisi Scholarum consuetudo aures emolliuisses: The name of Heresie is laide vpon euery light mater. So would the Scotistes handle the Thomistes: sauinge that the custome of the Schooles hath brought theire eares in vre. Thus Pope Ni­colas saithe, Qui Romanae Ecclesiae Priuilegium auferte conatur, hic procul dubio labi­ [...]ur in Haeresim: Who so euer goeth about to abrogate the priuilege of the Churche of Rome, be no doubte is an Heretique.

That ye speake of stubbernenesse in defence of Heresie, I praye God, M. Har­dinge, it doo not ouer neare touche your selfe. I praye God, you doo not wilfully defende that thinge, wherein you knowe, and sée manifest, and open errour. Ve­rily S. Hierome saithe: [...]4. Quaest. 3. Haeresis est. Quicun (que) aliter Scripturam intelligit, quàm sensus Spiritus San­cti flagitat, quo scripta est, licet ab Ecclesia non recesserit, tamen Haereticus appellari potest: VVho so euer expoundeth the Scriptures otherwise, then the sense of the Holy Ghoste, by whome they were written, dothe require, although he be not yet departed from the Churche, yet maye he wel be called an Heretique. Likewise the old Father Tertullian saithe: Quicquid contra veritatem sapit, Haeresis est, etiam vetus Consuetudo: VVhat so euer thinge [...]uoureth against the Truthe, Tertull. de vir­ginib. velandis. Vdalri [...]us Au­gustanus Ipiscopus ad Nicola. Papam. it is an Heresie, be it neuer so mutche an old custome. Hilari. de Tri­nitate, Li. 6.

Likewise your Tyrannical and filthy restraininge of Priestes lauful mariage, Vdalricus the Bishop of August a calleth Periculosum Haeresis Decretum: A dangerous Decree of Heresie.

Nowe touchinge simple errour, and wilful defence, S. Hilary saithe, Illis in eo, quod nesciunt, potest adhuc in tuto esse salus, si credant: Tibi verò iam omnia ad salutem clausa sunt, qui negas, quod iam ignorare no [...] potes: They, for so mutche as they knowe not the Truthe, maye haue theire saluation in safetie, if afterwarde they beleeue: But al hope of health is shut from thee, for as mutche as thou deniest that thinge, that thou canste not chuse but knowe.

To conclude, vnto you, M. Hardinge, who oftentimes of smal errours, often­times of vndoubted, & knowen Truthes▪ without regard of Definition haue fansied great, Alphonsus de Castro de H [...]re. Li. 1. Ca. 7. & horrible Heresies, Alphonsus de Castro a Doctour of your owne saith thus: Idcirco sit, vt hi, qui tam leuiter de Haeresi pronunciant, non expendentes de qua re loquā ­tur, saepe sua ipsorū sagitta feriantur, incidant (que) in eam foueam, quam alijs parabant. Nam velle humanas Scripturas in Diuinarum ordinem connumerare, hoc veriùs ego dixerim Haeresim: quod faciunt hi, qui humanis Scriptis diffentire impium autumant, perinde ac Diuinis: There fore it happeneth, that they, that so rashly pronounce, and cal euery thing Heresie, not considering wherof they speake, be often striken with their own dart, and fal into the same pit, y ^t them selues haue digged for others. For this would I rather cal Heresie, to accoumpt men [...] [Page 47] writinges emonges the Scriptures of God. So doo they, that thinke it a wicked mater to dis­sent from the writinges of man, nolesse, then if it were the Judgement of God.

M. Hardinge.

Yf ye meane Hus, Hierome of Prague, Wickle [...], Almaricke, Abailard, the Apostolikes, Pe­terbrusians, Berengarians, The Defenders predecessours Waldenses, Albingenses, Imagebreakers, or suche like, which euer founde faulte with the Churche in their time, and cried for a restoringe of Religion, as though it had ben quite lost, and would them selues haue the glory of it by bringing in their Heresie in place of the Catholique Doctrine, vnder the name of Goddes woorde, whiche hath alwaies ben the propertie of al Heretikes: if, I say, ye meane these, or any of these: we also cal them Heretikes, and for such wee condemne them.

But Sirs ye forget your selues fouly. Contradiction founde in the defenders. How agreeth this with that ye saie hereafter oftentimes, that the Light of the Truthe was quite put out, and that Luther and Zuinglius first brough the Gospel abroade into the worlde?

VVere it true that Christe was called a Samaritane for the cause ye assigne, thereof what con­clude ye? VVe see where about ye go. Ye woulde seeme to ioine with Christ, with Paule, and with the first Christians. But truely they refuse your companie.

But we tel you, Samaritane. Christ was the true Samaritane in deede, Iohan. 8. that is to say, the Keeper, as he that is Keeper of mankinde: and therefore he shunned not the name. Yet was he not a Samaritane as the Iewes ment. Paule likewise, (who was not as ye say, to speake properly, called before the Iudges to make ausweare to a mater of Heresie) being accused to Felix by Tertullus that he was of the secte or Heresie of the Nazarens (so were the Christians first called) did not onely not denie, Act. 24. but openly confes­sed, that according to that way or state of life, which the Iewes called a secte or Heresie, he wor­shipped God. Heresie. For it is to be considered that in those times the name of Heresie was not so infamous, as it may be iudged by the place of the Actes, cap. 5. onlesse somewhat be added whereby it may be vnder­standed to be taken in rate of a vice, as, 1. Cor. 11. Galat. 5. So the woorde was then indifferent, and might be taken in good part, or euil part. Tertullian vseth it in good part, where speaking of the Christi­ans, he calleth them Sectam, Apologeti. C [...]. 21. Secta. a Secte, into which Latine woord the Greeke woorde Heresis is tur­ned. Now these examples of Christ, Paule, and the first Christians, serue not your defence. Christ was called of the Iewes a Samaritane vnwoorthely after the sense of their thought: Ye are called He­retikes, woorthely. Paule burdened with the name of Heresie, for as muche as thereby was signified the kinde of life of those that beleeued in Christ, the woorde being indifferent, was honoured rather then reutled. And Tertullian calleth the Christian people a Secte (as he might) without blemishe or note of any euil, Your case is not like: For ye are charged with Heresie, as it is taken in the worst part.

The B. of Sarisburie.

O howe many waste woordes hath M. Hardinge to spare? Here once againe he comneth in with Hus, Hierome of Prage, Wicklefe, Almarik, Abailard, Apo­stolikes, [Page 48] Peterbrusians, Berengarians, Waldenses, Albingenses, Image­breakers, to fraye his simple reader with a terrour of strange names. Wée saie, Luther and Zuinglius were the first Publishers of the Gospel: and yet againe we saie, the same Luther and Zuinglius were not the firste: Wée haue forgotten our selues fouly: Wée write contradiction against our selues: Wée would séeme to toine with Christe and Paule: but truely they refuse our companie: And so foorthe, I knowe not what.

verily, M. Hardinge, wée neuer saied, Luther, and Zuinglius were the firste Publishers of the Gospel. Yf wée should so saie, wée should reporte vntruthe, as you doo often. Christe, and his Apostles were the firste.

These woorthy, and Learned Fathers, Luther, and Zuinglius, and other like Godly and zelous men, were appointed of God, not to erecte a newe Churche, but to reforme the olde, whereof you had made a Caue of Théeues: to kendle a­gaine the Light, that you had quenched: and to heare witnesse to the Truthe of GOD.

You saie, Christ, and Paule wil none of our companie: as if you were priuie of theire counsel. But perhappes, M. Hardinge, this is Clauis errans, and there­fore can neither open, Hieronym. in. 16 Ca. Matthae. nor shutte: Or, Iohan. 14. as S. 1. Pet. 2. Hierome saithe, Pars aliqua supercilij Pharisaici, some parte of the high lookes of the Phariseis. Christe him selfe hath saide, Who so loueth me, wil keepe my woorde: and my Father loueth him: And my Father, and I wil come to him, and dwel with him. S. Peter saithe, Who so trusteth in him, shal not be confounded.

Of Abailard, and Almarik, and certaine other your strange names, wée haue no skil: They are none of ours. Of Iohn Hus, Hierome of Prage, and Berengarius, and other like vertuous Learned men, wée haue no cause to be a­shamed. Theire Doctrine standeth stil, and encreaseth daily: bicause it is of God. But as for yours, bicause it is onely of your selues, therefore it falleth daily, and is now forsaken the worlde through.

You saie, that the simple namè of Secte, or Heresie, wherewith S. Paule was charged, was not so infamous, or odious in those daies: and that Tertul­lian called the Religion of Christe a Secte, or Heresie without any manner blem­mishe or note of euil. It was néedelesse for M. Harding, to auouche Vntruthe so earnestly without cause.

I graunte, the name of Heresie, or Secte emonge the Philosophers was not infamous. Cicer. in Para­dox. Cicero saithe, Cato in ea Haeresi est, quae nullum sequitur florem Orationis. But in case of Religion it was euermore emongst al men taken in il parte, and condemned, and coumpted odious. Touchinge S. Paule, in howe good parte the Iewes called him Heretique, Actor. 24. it may easily appeare by these woordes of Tertullus his accuser: Inuenimus hunc virum pestilentem, & mouentem seditionem omnibus Iu­daeis per vniuersum orbem, ac Principem Sectae Nazaraeorum: We haue founde this man to be a Pestilent, and a wicked felowe, mouinge sedition emonge the Jewes throughout the whole worlde, and a Captaine of the Heresie of the Nazareines. In sutche good parte they saide vnto Christe: Iohan. 7. Arte thou greater then was our Father Abraham: Thou arte a false Prophete, Iohan. 8. and deceiuest the People: Thou arte a Samaritane, and hast the Diuel.

The like good parte Christ promised afore hande to his Disciples: Iohan 16. They shal caste you out of theire Synagoges: Matth. 1 [...]. Ye shalbe hated of al men for my names sake. In sutche good parte and meaninge was S. Paule called an Heretique. And so, M. Hardinge, Nicola Lyra in 24. Cap. Actor. bisides others, your owne Doctour Nicolaus Lyra would soone haue tolde you.

But muche more I marueile, ye should so vnaduisedly saye, that Tertul­lian [Page 49] called the Christian people a Secte, Christian Faithe cal­led Here­sie. or Heresie in good parte, and, as you saye, without any blemishe, or note of euil. For the same. Tertullian in the same Apo­logie saithe, the Heathens commonly called the Christians, Incestos, Homicidas, Infanticidas, Tertull. in Apologetico. Sacrilegos, Pessimos, Nocentissimos, Publicum odium, Hostes humani generis, Omnium Scelerum reos: Deorum, Imporatorum, Legum, Morum, Naturae to­tius inimicos: Aduouterours against kinde, Mankillers, killers of Children, Churcherobbers, moste wicked, moste husteful, the publique hatred, the enemies of Mankinde, guiltie of al kinde of wickednesse: Enimies against the Goddes, against the Emperours, against the Lawes, against good order, against Nature it selfe. Tertull. in Apo­logetico. Where so euer they sawe them, they made an outcrie vpon them, Christianos ad Leonem: Non licet esse Christianos: Haue these Christians to the Lion: It is not lawful, these Christians shoulde liue. So S. Augustine saithe, August. De Ci­uitate, li. 2. ca. 3. Eujeb. li. 4. ca. 18. Factum est vulgi Prouerbium, Pluuia defecit cause Christianorum: It is nowe become a common Prouerbe emonge the people, our raine faileth vs, bicause of these Christians. So Eusebius saithe, the Religion of Christe was called Impiorum Christianorum Haeresis: The Heresie of the Godlesse Christians. These woordes, M. Hardinge, I trowe, were neuer vttered without al manner blemishe, and note of euil. S. Hie­rome saithe, Quod magis mirum sit, Hieronym. in E­pist. ad Titum▪ Cap. 3. etiam illud de Actibus Apostolorum videtur esse relegendum, Fidem nostram in Christum, & Ecclesiasticā Disciplinā iam tunc à peruer­sis hominibus Haeresim nuncupatam: And that wee maye the more marueile, wee maye once againe reade this place of the Actes of the Apostles: where we finde, y ^t the Christian Faithe, and Ecclesiastical Discipline was euen then of wicked menne called on Heresie.

Euen as rightly, M. Hardinge, and vpon as good groundes, you haue againe this daye condemned the same Gospel of Christe, and in ans good parte, & meaninge haue called it Heresie. But wée maye truely, and simply saye with S. Paule, Actor. 24. Ac­cordinge to this Secte, whiche you calle Heresie, wee woorship the God of our Fathers, whiche is the Father of our Lorde Iesus Christe.

M. Hardinge.

VVhere ye require your Heresie, for so muche as it is so hainous a crime, The Defenders Heresies suffici­ently and fully confuted alrea­die by sundrie greate Clerkes. Lanfrancus. Guimundus. Petrus Cluoia­censis. by plaine and stronge are gumentes to be prooued: it is not vnfoowen how sufficiently and substantially that is perfoormed al­ready by men of excellent learninge, as wel of this age, as of times paste. VVas not Berengarius, the first Author of your Sacramentarie Heresie? by most plaine and stronge argumentes confuted of Lan­francus B. of Canturbury, and Guinundus B. of Auersa? VVere not the Peterbrusians so, whose He­resie ye holde against the Blessed Sacrifice of the Masse, of the learned Abbot Petrus Cluniaccensis? VVas not VVicklef so of Thomas VValden, a learned man of Englande? hathe not Luther and Oeclampa­dius benne so confuted in our time, of that Holy and learned Father Bishop Fisher?

But whatshal I speake of particular men, Tho. VValden. B. Fisher. were they newer so excellent, by whome they haue benne confuted, sithe by Publike sentence of the Churche they haue bene condemned, bothe in General [Page 50] and Prouincial Councels? Scriptures and Doc­tours. Therefore we thinke it not noede no we againe to prooue your do­ctrine, so sufficiently condemnèd, to be Heresie. That the people be no we otherwise instructed, then they were in times paste, we confesse. But whether better nowe, then in our Forefathers dayes, they that can consider the liues of them no we, and of them that were then, maye easily Indge.

The saieinges of the Bishop of Rome were neuer allowed for the Gospel. His priuate sayinges and common talke might be erroneous, In vvhatcase the Popes sayinges are to be taken for Truthe. Luc [...]. 22. notesse then other mennes But what he saith by waie of iudge­ment and sentence definitiue in doubteful pointes touchinge Religion, suche saieinges of Peters suc­cessour (for whome Christe prayed, that his Faithe might not faile, and who was commaunded by Christe to strengthen his Brethren) we take for Truthe, and the same obediently receiue. So the Fa­thers assembled in Councel at Chalcedon, Vntruthe. receiued and agreed to the sayinge and writinge of Pope Leo, nolesse then if Peter the Apostle and firste Bishop of Rome him selfe had spoken. The Popes auctori­tie we acknowledge Supreme aboue al other auctoritie in Earthe, touchinge the gouernement of the Churche: Vntruthe: yet was it neuer saide, ne thought by the Catholiques, that al Religion depended onely thereon, as your sclaunderous reporte beareth menne in hande.

The B. of Sarisburie.

Lanfrancus, Euimondus, Abbas Cluniacensis, Thomas Waldensis, Iohn Fi­sher, and other your like Doctours, M. Hardinge, are ouer yonge, al within the space of this laste fiue hundred yéeres, far vnlike S. Augustine, S. Hierome, S. Ambrose, S. Chrysostome, and others the Ancient Learned Fathers, & Doctours of the Churche. Neither is there any sufficient cause to the contrarie, but that Be­rengarius, Iohn Wicklefe, Iohn Hus, Doctour Luther, Zwinglius, Oecolampa­dius, & others, either for Learninge, or for Truthe, or for Iudgement in the Scri­ptures, or for Antiquitie maye wel & safely be compared with them. At the least I hope wée maye saie of them, as S. Augustine once saide of the Doctours, & Fathers of his time: August. ad For­tunarian. Epis. 111. Neque quorumliber Disputationes, quamuis Catholicorum, & laudatorum hominum, velut Scripturas Canonicas habere debemus: vt nobis non liceat, salua ho­norificentia, quae illis debetur, aliquid in eorum Scriptis improbare, aut respuere: si fortè inuenerimus, quòd aliter selfserint; quàm Veritas habet: Neither weigh wee the writinges of al meane, be they neuer, so woorthy, and Catholique, as wee weighe the Canonical Scrip­tures: but that, sauinge the reuerence that is dewe vnto them, we maye wislike, and refuse some­what in their writinges, if we happen to finde, that they haue thought otherwise, then the Truthe maye beare. Likewise the Councelles, ye meane, are very Newe, & there­fore beare the lesse authoritie, for that they be so many waies contrary to the Olde. Hereof hereafter more at large. Certainely, there is none of your errours so grosse and palpable, but by some of your late Councelles it hath benne confirmed. There­fore wee maye iustly saie to you, as S. Augustine sometime saide to Mariminus the Arian Heretique, August. contrae Maximin. Li. 3. Cap. 14. Nec ego Nicenam Synodum tibi, nec tu mihi Ariminensem de­bes, tanquam praeiudicaturus, obijcere. Scripturarum Authoritatibus, res cum re, causa cum causa, ratio cū ratione conceuer: Neither maye I saye to thee the Councel of Nice, nor maiste thou laye to mee the Councel of Ariminum, either of vs thinkinge thereby to finde preuidice against the other. But let vs laye mater to mater, cause to cause, and reason to reason, by the Authoritie of the Scriptures.

Ye graunte, there is more lighte and knowledge nowe, then was before. The greatter is either your faulte, or your folie, M. Hardinge, that in the broade daye, & open Lighte so busily set foorthe the woorkes of darkenesse. S. Chrysostome saithe, Chrysostom. in Psalm. 9. Hic est multò impudentior. Ex furibus enim leges eos grauiùs puniunt, qui interdiu furantur: He is very shamelesse, that woorketh deceite in the open Lighte. For of al Theeues the Lawe moste sharpely punisheth them, that robbe in the daye time. Therefore S. Cyprian saithe vnto you: Ignosci poruit simpliciter erranti. Post inspirationem verò & reuelationem factam, Cyprian. qui in eo, quod errauerat, perseuerat prudens, & sciens, sine venia ignorantiae peccat. Praesumptione enim, atque obstinatione superatur:. [Page 51] He that is deceiued, Pope a­boue Goddes VVoorde. and erieth of simplicitie, maye be pordoned. But after that the Truthe is once reueled, who so continueth neuerthelesse in his former errour witingly and willingly, sin­neth without pardonne of ignorance, as beinge ouercome by presumption, and wilfulnesse.

You saie, not withstandinge al this greate Light wée talke of, yet our liues are nothinge comparable to the liues of them that haue benne before vs. This, M. Hardinge, hathe euer benne an olde complainte in al ages, as maye appeare by S. Cyprian, Cyprian. ad De­metrianum. August. De Ci­uita. Dei. Ecclesiastes. 7. S. Augustine, and other Ancient Fathers: It was a common Prouerbe in olde times, [...]: Thinges a yéere paste are euermore better, then thinges presente. For euery thinge to vs séemeth the greatter, as it séemeth nea­rest to touche our senses. And bicause wée féele not our Fathers euilles, therefore wée imagine, they had no euil at al. The wise man saithe, Ne dixeris, quae causa est, quòd priora tempora meliora fuerint, quàm praesentia. Stulta enim est huiusmodi in­terrogatio: Neuer demaunde wherefore the times paste were better then the times presente. For in deede it is a foolishe question.

But, M. Hardinge, wherefore doo you thus condemne our liues in respecte of our Fathers? Certainely you must néedes confesse, there are fewer blasphemies, fewer Othes, fewer breaches of Matrimonie, fewer Stewes, fewer Concubines, fewer Fraies, fewer Murthers emongst vs this daie, then commonly were at any time e­monge our Fathers. How be it, to let our Fathers passe, if it shal please you to laye our liues to your liues, although we acknowledge many our imperfections, yet Goddes name be blessed, wee haue no cause to flee the comparison.

The Popes woordes, you saie, were neuer taken for Gospel: Yes, M. Hardinge, and somewhat also aboue the Gospel. For proufe whereof it maye please you to re­member the woordes of certaine your late Doctours. Syluester Prieriâs late Ma [...] ­s [...]ter of Pope Leoes Palaice, Syluester Prie­riâs, Cōtra Lu­therum. writeth thus: Indulgentiae authoritate Scripturae non in­notuere nobis: sed authoritate Ecclesiae Romanae, Romanorum (que) Pontificum, quae maior est: Pardonnes are not warrented vnto vs by the authoritie of Goddes Woorde: but by the authoritie of the Romaine Churche, and of the Bishoppes of Rome, whiche is more, then Goddes VVoorde. Yf this be not sufficient, he addeth farther: A doctrina Romanae Ecclesiae, & Romani Pontificis Sacra Scriptura robur, & authbritatem trahit: The Hosy Scripture taketh strength, and authoritie of the Doctrine of the Bishop and Churche of Rome.

Cardinal Cusanus entituleth his Booke: Nicolaus Cusa­nus. De authoritate Ecclesiae, & Councilij supra, & contra Scripturam: Of the Authoritie of the Churche, and Councel aboue, and a­gainst the Scripture.

Your greatest Doctour Albertus Pigghius saithe, Albert. Pigghi­us, Hierarch. Lib 1. Cap. 2. Apostoli quaedam conscripse­runt, non vt scripta illa praessene Fidei & Religioni nostrae, sed potius vt subessent: The Apostles wrote certaine thinges, not to the ende that sutche willinges shoulde he ouer our Faithe, and Religion: but rather, that they shoulde be vnder. Your Canonistes saie, 16. q. 1. Qui­cun (que): In Clossa. a Papa potest dispensare cōira ius Diuinum: The Pope maye dispense against the Lawe of God: 15. q. 6. Autho­ritate. In Clossa. Papa potest dispensare contra Ius Naturae: The Pope maye dispense against the Lawe of Nature: Dist 34. Lector, & Dist 82 Pres­byter. Papa potest dispensare contra Apostolum: The Pope maye dispense against S. Pause the Apostle: Abbas Panot. Extra. De Di­uorijs. Cap. fin. Papa porest dispensare contra Nouum Testamentum: The Pope maye dispense againste the Newe Testamente: Summa Angel. in Dictione Papa. Papa potest dispensare de omnibus praece­ptis veteris, & Noui Testamenti: The Pope maye dispense with al the Commaūdementes bothe of the Olde, and also of the Newe Testamente. Hereof more hereafter, as farther occasion shalbe offered.

These be your owne Doctours woordes, M. Hardinge: they be truely reported: they be no scalunders. And therefore Franciscus Zarabelia a Cardinal of Rome saithe thus: Franciscus Za­rabella, De Se­ctis. 115. Persuaserunt Pontificibus, quòd omnia possent, & sic quòd facerent, quic­quid liberet, etiam illicita, & sint plusquam Deus: They haue made the Popes beleeue that they might doo al thinges, what so euer they sisted, yea notwithstandinge they were thinges vnlawful? and thus haue they made them more then God.

[Page 52] You saye, The Pope in his common talke maye be deceiued, and erre, as other menue maye: but in his Iudgemente Seate, and Sentence Definitiue of Religion be cannot erre: as if ye would saye, The Pope hath one Sprite in the Consistorie, & an other at home: mutche like, as one saide sometimes vnto Cicero in reproche of his inconstancie, Salust. in Cices ronem. Lucae, 22. Aliud stans, aliud sedens de Republica loqueris: Touchinge the Common Wease, ye haue one minde sittinge, and an other standinge.

But Christe saide vnto Peter, I haue praied for thee, that thy Faithe should not faile: Therefore, saye you, Wée receiue obediently, what so euer the Pope speaketh in place of Iudgemente. Hereby ye séeme to geue vs secretely to vnderstande, that Christes Praiers were auailable for the Pope, to kéepe him from errour, not in the Churche, or Pulpite, or Closet, or any other common, or Priuate place, but onely in the Consistorie, and Councel, in debatinge doubteful cases of Religion.

But how holdeth this arguments? Christe praied for Peter, that his Faithe should not faile: Augustin. in Quaesti. Noui Tesla. Quae. 75. Iohan. 17. Ergo, the Pope cannot erre. Verily S. Augustine saithe, Nun­quid pro Petro rogabat: pro Iohanne, & lacobo non rogabat? Vt de coeteris taceamus: VVhat did Christe praie for Peter: and did be not praie for Iohn, and Iames? I wil not speake of the reste. Neither did Christe praie for Peter onely, or for the Apostles, but, for al the Faithful, that euer should be: as him selfe saithe, I praie not onely for them, but also for al them, that through theire preachinge shal beleue in mée.

How be it, what, saithe M. Hardinge, he so obediently receiueth the Popes De­crees? Yewis, the Popes them selues wil not so receiue them. Platyna saithe, Acta Priorum Pontificum sequentes Pontifices aut infringunt, Platyna in Ste­phano, & in Romano. aut omninò tollunt. Nihil enim aliud isti Pontificuli cogitabant, quàm vt nomen, & dignitatem maiorum suo­rum extinguerent: The nexte Pope either breaketh, or vtterly repeaseth his Predecessours Decrees. For these litle petie Popes had none other studie to busie them selues withal, but onely to deface the name and dignitie of the former Popes.

Where you saye, The whole Councel of Chalcedon so estéemed the voice of Pope Leo, as if it had benne the voice of Peter him selfe, this, M. Hardinge, is a manifest Vntruthe, as it shal soone appeare. I graunte, the name of Leo, for his greate learninge, and granitie was mutche regarded. So. S. Ambrose for the like cause was called, Athanas. ad Heronem. Sozomen. Lib. 1. Cap. 23. Orbis terrarum oculus, Sacerdotum Archisacerdos, & Fundamen­tum Fidei: The Eie of the worlde, the Head Prieste of al Priestes, and the Fundation of the Faithe. So Paphnutius, beinge no Pope, was hearde against al the reste of the Councel of Nice: So S. Hierome beinge neither Pope, nor Bishop, was re­ceiued against this whole Councel of Chalcedon. 36 Quaest. 2. Quia legitima.

Neither did the Councel folowe Leo alone, as the Vniuersal Bishop, and Head of the Churche, but ioined him together with others, as estéeminge them of equal Authoritie. Concil. Chalce­don. Actio. 2. For thus they made theire general shoote: Omnes ita credimus: Leo Papa ita credit: Gyrillus ita credit: Leo, & Anatolius ita credunt: Thus wee al beleeue: Thus Pope Leo beleueth: Cyrillus thus beseueth: Leo, and Anatolius thus beleeue.

And with what credite can M. Hardinge saie, The whole Councel of Chalce­don yelded vnto Pope Leo, as if it had benne vnto Peter him selfe? For it is cer­taine, that the same whole Councel decreed against Leo: and likewise Leo against the Councel. For the Councel decreed, contrary to the olde Canons, that the Bi­shop of Constantinople emonge the foure Patriarches shoulde be the seconde in di­gnitie, and that the same Bishop of Constantinople should haue and enioie one au­thoritie, and like Priuileges with the Bishop of Rome. The woordes be these, Acqua Sāctisissmae Sedi Nouae Romae Priuilegia tribuerunt rationabile iudicantes, Concil. Chalce­don. Actio. 16. Pa. 936. vrbem eam ornatam iam Imperio, & Senaru, aequis Senioris Regiae Romae Priuilegijs frui, & in Ecclesiasticis, sicut illa habet, Maiestatem habere negotijs: The Fathers gane equal Priui­leges vnto the Holy See of Newe Rome (whiche was Constantinople) thinkinge it to be reasonable, that the same Cittie of Constantinople, beinge now furnished with Empire, and [Page 53] Councel, Churche depēdeth of the Pope. should enioie equal Priuileges with the Princely Cittie of the olde Rome, and in al Ecclesiastical affaires shoulde beare the same Maiestie, that Rome beareth. This thinge Pope Leo mutche misliked, and founde greate faulte with the Councel, and would in no wise consente vnto it. Thus he writeth, Leo Epist. 59. Quae per occasionem Synodi malè sunt attentata reprehenderam: I reproued those thinges that were euil attempted by the Councel of Chascedon: Leo Epist. 53. And againe, Nullum vnquàm potuerunt nostrum obtinere con­sensum: They were neuer hable to geate our consente.

And when these maters were paste by the consente of al the Bishoppes, Lucen­tius Pope Leoes Legate came whininge in, and besought the Councel, that the whole mater might be repealed. The woordes written in the Councel be these: Lucentius dixit: Concil. Chalcet don. Actio. 16. Sedes Apostolica, quae nobis praecepit, praesentibus humiliati non debet. Et ideò quaecun (que) in praeiudicium Canonum, hesterna die gesta sunt, nob [...] absentibus, sublimitatem vestram petimus, vt circunduci iubeatis. Viri Illustrissimi ludices dixe­runt, Quod interloquuri sumus, tòta Synodus approbauit: Lucentius the Popes Le­gate saide, The Apostolique See of Rome, whose commission wee haue, maye not by any these dooinges be defaced. Therefore wee beseche your honours, that what so euer was con­cluded here yesterday in our absence, in preiudice of the Canons, ye wil commaunde the same to be blotted out. The Honorable Iudges made him aunsweare: That we haue talkte of, the same the whole Councel hath allowed.

Thus many waies, M. Hardinge, the Vntruthe of your tale plainely appea­reth. For the Councel of Chalcedon estéemed not the voice of Leo, as if it had benne the voice of Peter, as you saye: but rather contrariewise made lighte of it, and weighed it none otherwise, then they same cause.

Therefore Liberatus saithe thus touchinge the same: Liberatus, ca. 13. Cùm Anatolius, consen­tiente Concilio Primatum obtinuisset, Legati verò Romani Episcopi contradicerent, à ludicibus, & Episcopis omnibus illa contradictio suscepta non est. Et licet Sedes Apo­stolica nune vsque contradicat, tamen, quod à Synodo firmatum est, Imperatorio Patro­cinio permanet: When Anatolius ( the Bishop of Constantinople) by consente of the Councel had obteined the Primacie, notwithstandinge, the Bishop of Roomes Legates stoode against it, yet theire gainesaieinge coulde not be receiued, neither of the Iudges, nor of the Bi­shoppes. And al be it the Apostolique See of Rome withstande it stil, yet the Decree of the Councel by the Emperours warrante continueth in force.

But you neuer taught vs, ye saye, y ^• the whole state of the Churche dependeth of the Pope. It is not your Doctrine: you neuer spake it. And therefore wée are railers, and sclaunderers, that so reporte you. If it be so in deede, M. Hardinge, as you saye, wherefore then suffer you Cardinal Cusanus to write thus, Veritas ad­haeret Cathedrae. Nicolaus Cusas­nus De author. Eccl. & Concil. Supra & cōtra Scripturam. Quare mēbra Cathedrae vnita, & Pontifici coniuncta efficiunt Ecclesiā: The Truthe cleaueth faste to the (Popes) Chaire. Therefore the members vnited to the Chaire, and ioined to the Pope, make the Churche. Wherefore suffer you Iohannes de Parisijs, one of your Catholique Doctours, to write thus: Fiet vnum Ouile, & vnus Pastor. Quod quidem de Christo intelligi non potest: Sed de aliquo alio Ministro, qui praesit loco cius: Iohan. De Pari­sijs De potestate Regia, & Pa­pali, Cap. 3. There shalbe one Plocke, and one shepheard. Whiche thinge cannot be ta­ken of Christe. We must needes vnderstande it of some other Minister, that ruleth in his steede.

Wherefore suffer you Nosius your Grande Captaine to write thus: Vnum to­ti praecsse Ecclesiae Vsque adeò est necessarium, vt absque hoc Ecclesia vna esse non possit: It is so necessarie a thinge, Hosius In Cōfes­sione Petricoui, Cap. 27. that one onely man oueruse y ^• whole Churche, y ^t without the same the Churche cannot be one. Wherefore suffer you your Canonistes to saie, Constat Ec­clesiam ideo esse vnam, quia in Vniuersali Ecclesia vnū est Caput Supremū, Scilicet Papa: It is plaine, that therefore the Churche is one, bicause that in the whole Vniuersal Churche there is one Supreme Head, Clemen. Lib. 5. Ad nostrum: In Glossae. that is the Pope. To be shorte, why doo you your selfe, M. Hardinge, allege S. Hieromes woordes directly, as ye woulde haue vs beleue, to this purpose? M. Hard fo 80. b Hierony. contra Luciferianos. Ecclesiae salus à Summi Sacerdotis dignitate pendet: Which woordes into Englishe ye haue turned thus: The safetie of the Churche hangeth of the VVoorship [Page 54] of the Highe Prieste. He meaneth the Pope Peters Successour. In whiche laste clause, ye misconstrue, and racke S. Hieromes woordes far contrary to his meaninge. For S. Hierome meante not bereby the Bishop of Rome, but euery seueral Bishop within his owne Charge: euery whiche Bishop he calleth the Highest Prieste, as in my Former Replie it is declared more at large. Art [...]. 4. Diul. 15.

If these thinges be true, why are they nowe deuied? If they be false, why are they not condemned? I truste, it maye appeare by these fewe, that wée reporte the Truthe truely, and are no sclaunderers.

M. Hardinge.

Nay Sirs, ye shal not so carie awaye the conclusion with a lie. But contrarywise, sithens wee bringe foorthe many Scriptures for the Truthe, whiche ye impugne, as your selues shal see, when we come to confute your doctrine, whiche here foloweth: and sithens not withstandinge that ye wil not yeelde to the Scriptures, but peruert the True meaninge of them with Gloses and interpretations of your owne Heades, Vntruthe. frame newe opinions contrary to that ye haue receaued, and that the Churche hathe euer taught: the Catholikes wilful cal you Heretikes, and the Churche wil condemne you for Heretikes, and so accompt you, vntil ye recant, and repent.

But ye haue not fallen from Christe, That the De­fenders be fallen from Christe. ye saye, nor from the Apostles, nor yet from the Prophetes. As though they that departe from the Romaine Churche, whiche is the Catholike Churche, which diuerse times in the Apologie ye confesse, fell not from Christe, and consequently from the Apostles, and Pro­phetes. Math. 28. Luke. 10. Saithe not Christe in the Gospel: He that heareth not the Churche, let him bee to thee as an Heathen, and a Publicane? Saieth he not also, He that despiseth you, despiseth mee?

The B. of Sarisburie.

Whether parte rightly and reuerently vseth the Scriptures of God, and whe­ther peruerteth them by shiftes, and Gloses, I truste, it shal in parte appeare by this conference. In déede, M. Hardinge, it is no great maisterie, by your interpre­tations, and handelinges to haue stoare yenough and plenette of Scriptures. For this is one special grounde of your Diuinitie, Extra. De translatione E­piscopi, Quāto, in Glossa. Papa potest ex nihilo facere aliquid: & Sententiam, quae nulla est, facere aliquam: The Pope is hable of nothinge to make some thinge: and of no Sentence to make some Sentence. By your Doctrine it is lawful, and good Logique, to reason thus: Dist. 21. Infe­rior Sedes. Esai. 10. An gloriabitur serra aduersus eum, qui trahit illam [...] Shal the sawe boaste against him, that draweth it? Matthae. 10. Concil. Roman. sub Syluestro. 1. Non est Seruus supra Dominum: There is no Seruant aboue his Lorde: Ergo, Noman maye dare to Iudge the Pope. Or thus, Ad Titum. 1. Dist. 82. Propo­suisti. Omnia munda mundis: Coinquinatis autem, & infidelibus mihil est mundum: Al thinges are cleane to the cleane: but vnto the filthy, and Infidelles nothinge is cleane: Ergo, It is not lawful for Priestes to marry.

Or, as you, M. Hardinge, sometimes haue delited to reason: Matthae. 7. M. Hardinge in his former Booke, Fol. 155. b. Nolite dare San­ctum Canibus: Geeue not Holy thinges to Dogges, Ergo, It is not laweful for the Christian vulgare People to Reade the Scriptures.

Thus maye you easily be wel stoared, and ful freight of Scriptures yenough, and, as Hieronym. ad Pammachium: Exēpla captiua seruiunt ad Vi­ctoriam. S. Hierome saithe, maye carrie them captiue to serue your turne. But S. Hierome coulde also haue tolde you, Hierony. in 1. Cap. Ad Galat. Non in verbis Scripturarum est Euāgelium, Cyprian ad No­tianum. to. 2. sed in sensu: The Gospel standeth not in the bare woordes of the Scriptures, but in the meaninge. Therefore wée maye saye vnto you, as S. Cyprian once saide to the Nouatian [Page 55] Heretiques: Audite, Nouatiani, apud quos Scripturae Coelestes leguntur potiùs, quàm intelliguntur: Hearken hereto, ye Nouatian Heretiques, emongst whome the Heauenly Scri­ptures are readde rather, then wel perceiued.

You saye, the Churche of Rome by our owne Confession is the Catholique Churche: whiche Churche, for as mutche as wée haue forsaken, wée haue forsalten Christe, and his Apostles. Matth. 18. Lucae. 10. For saithe not Christe in the Gospel, saye you, He that heareth not the Churche, let him be vnto thee as an Heathen, and a Publicane? And, He that despiseth you, despisethe mee?

Wée graunte, M. Hardinge, the name of the Churche of Rome is Catholique: but the Errours and abuses thereof are not Catholique. Neither is it the Churche, that wée finde faulte withal: but the greate corruptions, and foule deformities, that you haue brought into the Churche.

Howe be it your policie herein is apparent. Your Reader, be he neuer so sim­ple, maye soone sée your whole drifte. Ye magnifie the Churche with al manner titles of Authoritie, not for any special regarde, ye beare the Churche in déede, but onely to settle your selues in an infinite Tyrannie, and to make vs beleue, that you onely are the Churche, & to geue credite to al your fantasies: yea although ye be the defacers, & enimies of the Churche. Verily the bare name of the Churche is not sufficient. S. Paule saithe, that Antichriste the Man of sinne, 2. Thess. [...]. shal sitte in the Temple of God: whereby no doubte he meante the Churche.

But, M. Hardinge, Heare you the voice of God: leaue your Fables: speake Goddes Holy Woord, and speake it truely: be ye faitheful Ministers of the Truthe. Then who so euer shalbe founde to despise your Doctrine, be he kinge, or Empe­rour, wée will not doubte to calle him an Heathen, and Publicane. But if he be an Heathen, that wil not beare your Churche, what is he then that wil not heare Christe? Aeneas Sylui. in Gestis Concil. Consiant. Aeneas Syluius, beinge afterwarde Pope him selfe, saithe thus: Si Romanus Pontifex non audiet Ecclesiam, Christum quoque non audiet, & tanquam Ethnicus, & Publicanus haberi debet: If the Bishop of Rome wil not heare the Churche, he wil not heare Christe: and therefore muste be taken as an Heathen, Paral. Vrsperg. Pag. 411. and Publicane. S. Augu­stine saith, Oues meae vocem meam audiūt, & sequuntur me. Auferātur chartae Humanae: sonent voces Diuinae: My Sheepe heare my voice, Aug. De Ouibus Cap. 14. and folowe me. Awaie with Mannes VVrittinges: Let the Voice of God sounde vnto vs.

Surely Doctour Luther him selfe, againste whom M. Hardinge so vehemently, and so often inflamethe his choler, in humble and reuerent manner writethe thus: Nos colimus Romanam Ecclefiam in omnibus. Paral. Visperg. Pag. 472. Tantùm illis resistimus, qui pro Ecclesia obtrudunt Babyloniam: VVee honour the Churche of Rome in al thinges. Onely wee withstand them, that in steede of the Churche, haue thruste in the Cōsusion of Babylon. In like sense S. Cyprian. saithe, Non est pax, sed bellum: nec Ecclesiae iungitur, Cyprian Sermo­ne 5. De Lapsis. qui ab Euange­lio separatur: It is not peace: It is VVarre. Neither is he ioined to the Churche, that is dini­ded from the Gospel. Nowe, howe carefully the Churche of Rome is leadde by the Gospel of Christe, Nicola. Cusanus, De Authoritate Eccle. contra. & supra Scripturā. Aug contra Li­teras Petilianl Lib. 2. Cap. 85. wee maie easily learne by Nicolaus Cusanus a Cardinal of the same Churche of Rome. Thus he saithe: Sequuntur Scripturae Ecclesiam: & non è conuerso: The Scriptures of God folowe the Churche: but contrary wise the Churche folo­wethe not the Scriptures. To conclude, wée maye saye vnto you, as S. Augustine saide sometime to Pētilian the Donatian Heretique: Vtrùm nos Schismatici simus, an vos, nec ego, nec tu, sed Christus interrogetur, vt iudicet Ecclesiam suam: Whether of vs be Sch [...]matiques, wee, or you, aske you not me: I wil not aske you: Let Christe be asked: that he maie shewe vs his owne Churche.

M. Hardinge.

That the Holy Fathers did euer more fight against the Heretiques with nowe other force, then with the Holy Scriptures, that weè denie.

For What did the Fathers in the first general Councel holden at Nice? did they fight against Arius and the mainteiners of his Heresie with no other force, then with the Scriptures? When those Heretikes refused the woorde Homousion, whereby is signified the sonne of God to be of one and the same substance with God the Father, for that it was not to be found in the Scriptures, besides whiche they stiffely denied, as ye doo, that any thinge ought to be receiued: did not the Caetholike Bishoppes of thother side flie to the Ancient Fathers? did thei not appeale to the iudgementes of those Fathers, which had geuen sentence of the mater then beinge in controuersie, before that Arius and those that helde of his side were borne?

In the seconde Councel assembled at Constantinople, Histor. Tripart. lib. 5, cap. 10. were not the Heretikes of sundry sectes by a wittie and a godly policie contriued betwene Nectarius the Bishop and Theodosius the Empe­rour, through the suggestion of the greate Clerke Stsinnius, driuen to receiue the Doctours, who liued before theire Heresies were heard of, as witnesses of true Christian Doctrine woorthy of credite?

Macedonius in that Councel was condemned, Macedonius. who therefore denied the Holy Ghost to be God. bicause the Scriptures geue not vnto him that name. But the Bishops there assembled, as Photius that learned Bishop writeth, declared out of the teaching of the Fathers, and Diuines before theire time, that the Holy Ghost is to be adored, worshipped, and glorified, as beinge of one nature and substance togea­ther with the Father, and the Sonne.

In the thirde Councel kept at Ephesus, Nestorius euer called for Scrip­ture, as the He­retikes at this daie doo, vvhat so euer secte they bee of. Epist. 1. Tom. 4 Deipara not found in Scrip­ture, yet recei­ued and kept. the Heretike Nestorius boasted, at ye doo, of the Scrip­tures, sayinge, they were of his side, and would neither speake, nor heare ought but Scriptures, Scrip­tures. And alleaginge a place or twoo out of the Gospel, where Marie is called the Mother of Iesus, stoutely, finde me in all Scripture, (quoth he) wher Marie is called the Mother of God. Hereto what said that holy and learned Bishop Cyrillus, chiefe in that Councel? Hanc nobis fidem diuini tradidere Discipuli: & licet nullam fecerint dictionis huius mentionem, ita tamen sentire à sanctis Patribus edocti sumus. This Fatthe (saith he) the Disciples of God haue by tradition lefte vnto vs. And although they haue made no expresse mention of this woorde (Deipara) yet so to thinke we haue benne taught of the Holy Fathers.

When they reasoned about rules touchinge faithe to be made, (saithe Vincentius Lirinensis writinge of that Councel) to al the Bishoppes there assembled to the number almost of two hundred, this seemed most Catholike, most faitheful, and beste to be done, that the sentences of the Holy Fathers should be brought foorthe amonge them: to thend that by theire consente and Decrce the Religion of the Olde Doctrine should be confirmed, and the blasphemie of the Prophane nouel [...]ie condemned. Behold Sirs what weapons the Fathers haue vsed against Heresies, besides the Holy Scriptures.

In the fourthe Councel, whiche was celebrated at Chalcedon, the Heretike Eutyches, as ye and al Heretikes haue done, c [...]aked mutche of the Scriptures, and required his matter to be discussed by Scrip­tures. Tel me (quoth he mockingly to euery one that reasoned with him) in what Scripture lie the twoo natures? Eutyches clai­med his opiniō to be tried by the Scriptures.

But let vs heare what the Learned Bishoppes of that Councel saide thereto. VVee finde in the first action of the Councel, that they cried out aloude, Ea quae sunt Patrum teneantur: The thinges that the Fathers haue taught, The teachinge of the Fathers to be kept: Actio. 5. let them be kept. Againe when they come to the definitiue sentence, they saie: Sequentes igitur Sanctos Patres, &c. Folo winge the Holy Fathers, wee doo al with one [Page 57] accorde teache men to confesse one and him selfe the Sonne our Lorde Iesus Christe, persite him selfe in Godhead, and perfite himselfe in Manhood. And for Auctoritie of the Fathers in high pointes of Faith a Bishop in that reuerēd assemblie named Eudoocius pronounced a notable sentence, sayeing thus: Euery one that consentethe not to the exposition of the Holy Fathers, A notable say­inge of a Lear­ned Father, for thexposition of the Fathers. doothe alienate him selfe from al Pristely Communion, and from the presence of Christe. Thus wee haue alleaged the foure first gene­ral Councels, whiche S. Gregorie honourethe as the foure Gospels.

But the thinge beinge so euident as it is, and so welkuorwen euen to your selues, if ye be learned, the Auctorit it of these chief Councels maie suffice.

The B. of Sarisburie.

Here M. Hardinge, ye haue taken in hande a néedelesse labour. For you knowe right wel, wee despise not the Authoritie of the Holy Fathers: but rather in this selfe same place haue alleged togeather S. Augustine, S. Hierome, and S. Ambrose, thrée of the moste Auncient and approued Fathers: and throughout the whole discourse of this Apologie, in the Defence of the Catholique Truthe of our Religion, nexte vnto Goddes Holy Woorde, haue vsed no prouse, or Authoritie so mutche, as the expositions, and iudgementes of the Holy Fathers. Wée despise them not therefore, but rather geue God thankes in theire behalfe, for that it hathe pleased him to prouide so woorthy instrumentes for his Churche: and therefore wée iustly reproue you, for that so vnaduisedly, and without cause, ye haue forsaken the steppes of so Holy Fathers.

These foure General Councelles, wherein you dwel so longe, as they make nothinge against vs, so in sundrie pointes they fight expressely against you.

Firste, they were summoned by the Emperours, Constantinus, Theodosius 1. Theodosius. 2. and Martianus: and not by any right, or authoritie of the Pope: as hereafter it shalbe shewed in place conuenient more at large. Sozo. li. 1. ca. 17 Iulius the Bishop of Rome was summoned by the Emperours write to appeare at the Councel of Nice, as wel as others: Concil. Chal­cedon. Actio. 1. Fol. 748. And Pope Leo afterwarde was charged by like Authoritie to appeare at the Councel of Chalcedon. Eodem tenore Leo vocauys est.

Euseb. De Vita Constan. Orat. 3. In the Councel of Nice the Bishop of Rome was not President, but Eustathius the Bishop of Antioche. In the same Theodoretus, Lib. 1. cap. 7. Con. Nicen. Can. 6. Councel of Nice, the Bishop of Rome hathe his Authoritie and Iurisdiction made equal, and leuel with the other thrée Patri­arkes: Concil. Chal. cedon. Actio. 16. Pag. 936. And in the Councel of Chalcedon the Bishop of Constantinople is made equal in Authoritie with the Bishop of Roome. To be shorte, Liberat. ca. 13. the saide Councel of Chalcedon, for this laste, and some other like causes, Leo the Bishop of Rome would not allowe. Which thinge notwithstandinge, the Councel standethe stil in force, whether the Pope wil, or no.

These be the foure fiste General Councelles, whiche M. Hardinge compa­rethe in Authoritie with the foure Euangelistes.

But these Heretiques. Arius, Nestorius, Macedonius, and Euiyches in these foure General Coun­celles, vtterly despised al the Auncient Fathers, and boasted them selues (saithe M. Hardinge) of the Scriptures, and euermore cried out Scriptures, Scriptures. Touchinge the Arians, that they alleged certaine doubteful, and darke places of the Scriptures, to serue theire purpose, it is certaine, and manifeste. But that either they despised, or that the Ca­tholiques against them auouched the Eropsition and authoritie of any Father, M. Hardinges onely woorde muste be our Warrante. For neither allegethe he any one Author for prouse hereof, nor yet namethe any of al these Fathers.

Notwithstandinge, let vs graunt, these Heretiques cried out, as M. Har­dinge saithe, Scriptures, Scriptures. Euen so did the same Heretiques likewise crie out, euen as nowe M. Hardinge doothe, Socr. li. 4. ca. 26. [...] Fathers, Fathers. Socrates saithe, Et Ariani Originis libros citabant in Testimonium, vt illi quidem iudicabant, sui Dogma­tis. [Page 58] And the Arian Heretikes alleged the Learned Father Origens Bookes, Doctours alleged by Hereti­ques. as they thought, for proufe, and witnesse of theire Doctrine.

The Heretique Eutyches saide, Ego legi scripta Beati Cypriani, & Sanctorum Patrum, Concil Chalced Actio 1. Pag. 792 Concil. Chalced Actio. 4. Pa. 877 & Sancti Athanasii: I haue readde the writinges of S. Cyprian, and of other Holy Fa­thers, and of S. Athanafius.

Likewise the Eutychian Heretique Carosus saide, Ego secundum expositionem trecētorum octodecim Patrum sic credo, fic Baptixatus sum. Aliud quid mihi dicas, nescio: This is my Faithe, accordinge to the exposition of the three hundred and eighteene. Fathers ( in the Councel of Nice). In this Faithe was I Baptized. What ye should saye more to me, I cannot telle.

Euen so saide Eutyches him selfe: Concil. Chalced. Actio. 1. Pag. 751 Sic à Progenitoribus meis accepi, & credidi. In hac Fide Baptizatus sum, & signatus: & vs (que) and hunc diem in ea vixi, & in ea opto moti. Thus haue I receiued of my Forefathers, and thus haue I beleeued. In this Faithe was I Bap­tized, and signed: and in the same haue I liued vntil this daye: and in the same I wish to die.

Thus, Augustia. contra Cresco. li. 4. ca. 17 Conc. to. 1 pa. 568 S. Augustine saithe, the Donatian Heretique Cresconlus alleged the authoritie of S. Cyprian: Thus the Nestorian Heretiques alleged the authoritie of the Councel of Nice.

To be shorte, thus the Heretique Dioscorus cried out in the open Councel of Chalcedon: Concil. Chalced. Act. 1. Pag. 767. Ego habeo Testimonia Sanctorum Patrum, Athanasij, Gregorij, Cyrilli. Non transgredior in aliquo. Ego cum Patribus cijcior: Ego defendo Patrum Dogmata: Ego horum habeo testimonia, non simpliciter, aut transitorie, sed in ipsorum libris: I haue the Testimonies of the Holy Fathers, Athanasius, Gregorius, Cyrillus: I alter not from them in any pointe: I am throwen foorthe, and bannished with the Fathers: I defende the Fa­thers Doctrine: I haue theire iudgementes vttered, not by chaunce, or vnaduisedly, but remai­ninge expressed in theire Bookes.

I doubte not, M. Hardinge, but you maye hereby easily sée, that the Hereti­ques ye speake of, cried not onely, Scriptures, Scriptures, as ye saye: but had lea­sure also sometimes to crie, as you doo, Fathers, Fathers: & that as wel to purpose, and as rightly, as you of longe time haue vsed to crie, hauinge in déede in the cases wée speake of, neither Scriptures, nor Fathers.

To come neare the mater, wée saie not, that al cases of doubt are by manifeste, and open woordes plainely expressed in the Scriptures. For so there should neede no exposition. But wée saye, There is no case in Religion so darke, and doubte­ful, but it maie necessarily be either proued, or reproued by collection, and confe­rence of the Scriptures.

S. Hierome saithe, Hieron. in Esai. Cap. 19. Moris est Scripturarum obscuris manifesta subnectere: It is y ^• order of the Scriptures▪ Augu. in lib. 83. Quaest. q. 69. after harde thinges, to ioine other thinges that bee plaine. S. Augustine like wise saithe, Solet circunstantia Scripturarum illuminare sententiam: The Circunstance of the Scripture is woonte to geue light, and to open the meaninge. The like rule Tertullian also geuethe: Tertull. Aduer­sus Tra [...]eam. I piphani lib. 3. De Semiariani [...]. [...] Oportet secundum plu [...]a intelligi pauclora: The fewer places muste be ex­pounded by the moe. Therefore touchinge this woorde, Homousios, whiche M. Har­dinge here moueth, and the whole contention of the Arians, Epiphanius writethe thus: Nomen Substantiae simpliciter, & nudè in veteri, & Noua Scriptura non propo­nitur: Sententia autem eius nominis vbi (que) oc [...]urrié: This woorde, Substance, plainely, and nakedly is not founde, neither in the Olde, not in the Newe Testamente. But the sense, and meaninge of that woorde is founde euerywhere.

In this conference, and Iudgemente of the Holy Scriptures wée néede often­times the discretion, and wisedome of Learned Fathers. Yet notwithstandinge maye wée not géeue them herein greater credi [...]e, then is conuenient, or then they them selues, if it were offered, would receiue. Wée maye reuerently saye of them, as Seneca in the like case sommetime saide, [...]eneca. Non sunt Domini, sed Duces nostri: [Page 59] They are our Leaders, but not our Lordes. Scriptures and Doc­tours. They are not the Truthe of God it selfe, but onely witnesses vnto the Truthe.

Therfore S. Augustine saithe, August. Epist. 19. ad Hieronym. Alios Scriptores ita lego, vt quan [...]alibet Sanc­titate, Doctrina (que) praepolleant, non ideò verum putem, quòd ipsi ita senserint, sed quòd id mihi vel per alios Authores Canonicos, vel probabili ratione persuadere potuerint: Other writers, or Fathers ( bisides the Holy Scriptures) I reade in this sorte, that be theire Learninge, or Holinesse neuer so greate, I wil not thinke it true, bicause they haue thought so, but bicause they are hable to persuade me so, either by other Canonical writers, or els by some likely reason. Augusti. contra Faust. lib. 11. ca. 5. Likewise againe he saithe, Hoc genus literatum, nō cum credendi neces­sitate, sed cum iudicandi libertate legendum est: This kinde of writinges ( of the Holy Doc­tours, and Fathers) must be readde, not with necessitie to beleeue eche thinge, but with li­bertie to iudge of eche thinge. Aug. De Vnita. Eccle. ca. 10. And to that ende he saithe, Ne Catholicis quidem E­piscopis consentiendum est, sicubi fortè falluntur, vt contra Canonicas Dei Scripturas sen­tiant: Wee maie not consente vnto the Bishoppes, notwithstandinge they be Catholique, if they iudge contrarie to the Holy Canonical Scriptures. In this authoritie and credite wée haue, and ought to haue the Holy Fathers.

Nowe let vs sée, whethér the Bishoppes, and others in these Councelles, con­futed these Heretiques, as wée saye, by the Scriptures: or els, as M. Hardinge séemethe to saye, for wante or weakenesse of the Scriptures, vsed therein the Au­thoritie of the Fathers. Thedor. li. 1. ca. 7 Trip. hi. li. 2. ca. 5 [...]. Firste the Emperour Constantinus in the Councel of Nice, instructinge the Bishoppes there, howe they might beste debate theire quar­relles, and ende al striues, saithe thus vnto them: Euangelicae & Apostolicae Literae, & Veterum Prophetarum Oracula perspicuè nos instituunt, quid oporteat sapere de vo­luntare, & sensu Dei. Ponentes ergo contentionem, ex diuinitùs inspiraris oraculis quaera­mus solutionem eorum, quae proponuntur: The Euangelistes and Apostles Writinges, and the saieinges of the Olde Prophetes doo clearely instructe vs, what iudgemente wee ought to haue of the meaninge, and wil of God. Therefore saieinge a fide al contention, out of those Hea­uenly Oracles let vs seeke for the assoilinge of our questions.

Socrates also touchinge the same Councel of Nice, saithe thus of the Arian Heretiques: Socrat. li. 1. ca. 6. [...]. Explicantes Sacrosanctas Scripturas saepe illos euertimus: By openinge, and expoundinge the Holy Scriptures, oftentimes wee ouerthrewe them.

Likewise S. Augustine disputinge againste the same Arians refusethe, as I haue saide before, bothe Councelles, and Fathers, and appealethe onely to the Scriptures: Nec ego Nicenam Synodum tibi, nec tu mihi Ariminensem debes obijce­re: Scripturarum Authoritatibus, res cum re, causa cum causa, ratio cum ratione concertet: Neither wil I allege the Councel of Nice against you: Augusti. contra Maxi. li. 3. ca. 14 nor shal you allege the Councel of Ari­minum againste me. By the Authoritie of the Scriptures let vs weigh mater with mater: cause with cause: reason with reason.

Touchinge the Councel holden at Constantinople against Macedonius, and the Diuinitie of the Holy Ghoste, Athanasius saithe, Athanas. ad Se­rapion. Spirit. Sanct. non esse Creaturam. [...]uagrius. Ne interroges, sed solùm ex Sacris literis condiscas. Sufficiunt enim documenta, quae in illis reperias: Neuer mooue ques­tion hereof, but onely learne of the Holy Scriptures. For the onely proufes, that ye shal there finde, are sufficient ( to warrant the Godhed of the Holy Ghoste). So likewise saithe Euagrius of the other twoo Councelles, of Ephesus, and Chalcedon: Ex Euangeli­cis, & Apostolicis de Domino vocibus scimus Viros illos Diuinos constituisse: Wee knowe that these Godly Fathers concluded this mater by suche woordes, as the Euange­listes, and Apostles haue vttered of our Lorde.

Therefore the Auncient Father Origen saithe, Vide quàm propè periculis illi sint, Orig. in ca. 16. ad Rom. lib. 10. qui negligūt exerceri in Diuinis Literis: ex quibus Solis examinationis huiusmodi agnoscenda discretio est: Consider, in what daunger they be, that haue no care to reade the Holy Scriptures. Chrysost. in O­pere imperfec­ [...]o, Homi 49. For by the same Scriptures Onely the iudgement of this trial must be allowed.

Euen so saithe Chrysostome, Etiamsi in ipsis Veris Ecclesijs, quae Dei sunt, di­xerint, [Page 60] Christum apparuisse, nolite eis credere dicentibus ista de me. Non enim digna est Diuinitatis meae haec notitia: Ostēdens per haec, quòd ab ipsis saepè Veris Ecclesijs excunt seductores. Proptereà ne ipsis quidem credendum est, nisi ea vel dicant, vel faciant, quae conuenientia sint Scripturis: Yea if they saie, that Christe hathe appeared in the very true Churches of God, yet beleeue them not. For this is no woorthy or sufficient knoweledge of my Godhed. By this he sheweth, that out of the very true Churches oftentimes come foor the deceiuers. Therefore wee maie not beleeue, no not them ( that speake vnto vs in the name of the Churche) onlesse they speake, and doo suche thinges, as are agreeable to the Scriptures. In like manner againe saithe Origen, Orig. in Hiere. Hom. 1. Necesse nobis est in restimonium vocare Sanc­ras Scripturas. Sensus quippe nostri, & enarrationes sine ijs restibus non habent fidem: Wee muste needes calle to witnesse the Holy Scriptures: For our iudgementes and expositions without those witnesses carrie no credit.

And, to leaue al other like authorities, that might he alleged, for shorte con­clusion, Aug. De Naturae & Cratia, ca. 61 S. Augustine saithe, Solis Canonicis Scripturis sine vlla recusatione cōsensum debeo: I owe my consente without gaine saieinge (not vnto the Doctours, or Fathers, but) Onely vnto the Canonical Scriptures.

But the Bishoppes in those Councelles, saithe M. Hardinge, brought foorthe, and folowed the expositions of the Auncient Learned Fathers. And wherefore might they not? What man euer taught, or saide the contrarie? Yet notwith­standinge they alleged them, not as the fundations, or groundes, but onely as ap­proued, [...]uagrius libr. 3. Cap. 18 [...]. and faitheful witnesses of the Truthe. Whiche thinge if M. Hardinge happily wil denie, maie easily appeare, by the woordes of Cyrillus, pronounced and published openly in the Councel of Chalcedon: Gratulamur nobis mutuò, quòd & nostrae, & vestrae Ecclesiae Fidem habent consentientem, & diuinitùs adspiratis Scrip­turis, & Traditionibus Sanctorum Patrum: Wee reioice togeather eche of vs in others be­halfe, for that the Faithe bothe of our Churches, and also of yours, is agreable bothe vnto the Heauenly inspired Scriptures, and also to the Tradition, and exposition of our Fathers. Whiche woordes of Cyrillus beinge hearde, and the consente of the Fathers being knowen, the whole Councel for ioye made a shoote togeather, Omnes ita credimus, Papa Leo ita credit, &c. Thus wee al beleeue: Pope Leo thus beleeuethe: Thus beleeuethe Leo, and Anatolius: Thus Cyrillus beleeuethe: This is the Faithe of our Fathers: This is the Faithe of the Apostles: Thus haue the Apostles taught.

Thus maye you sée, M. Hardinge, (wée saye not to you, as you doo to vs, If you be Learned, for thereof we haue no doubte: God graunte, ye maie directe your Learninge to his glorie) but thus maye you see, to what ende the Bishoppes in the Councelles, ye speake of, alleged the expositions of the Ancient Fathers, and howe farre they weighed them vnder the Authoritie of the Scriptures. In like sorte doo wée also this day allege against you the manifeste, and vndoubted, & agreeable iud­gementes of the moste Aunciente Learned Holy Fathers: and thereby, as by ap­approued, and faitheful witnesses, wée disclose the infinite folies, and errours of your Doctrine. And séeinge you haue forsaken the felowship of the saide Holy Fa­thers, as hereafter shal more [...]ully appeare, wée saye, vnto you, as Endoxius saide vnto the Heretique Abbate Eutyches in the Councel of Chalcedon: Ye haue remoued your selues, bothe from al Priestly Communion, and also from the presence of Christe.

M. Hardinge.

Concerninge this place of S. Augustine, it ought not to be stretched to al maters in general, that be in question, Manifeste Vntruthe. as though wee might not vse the Testimonies and Authorities of the Fathers againste Heretikes: but it perteinethe onely to the quaestion in that booke, De vnitate Ecclesiae, treated of, whiche is, where the Churche is. Petiliā the Donatist, and the Mainteiners of that Heresie cōtended the Churche to be onely in Aphrike, or at the furthest in Parte Donati, amonge thē onely that helde with Donatus. The same heresie went they about to proue by Scriptures. But when S. Augustine sawe howe weake theire proufes were, whiche they brought out of the Scriptures, he prouoked them, the better to ouerthrow them, to come to the trial of the Scriptures. And in deede where the Scriptures be manifeste for proufe of any matter, what nede is there of Doctours? But where the sense of the Scriptures is ob­scure, and may be wrested by euil wittes to the maintenaūce of an Heresie, there the expositions of the Fathers by al Olde VVriters haue ben taken of necessitie, to supplie the Scriptures obscuritie, and to declare the sense of the Churche, whiche the Holy Ghost hathe prōpted. And in sutche cases S. Augustine himselfe vsethe the Testimonies of the Fathers not seldome, namely against Iulian the Pelagian: VVhere beside Scripture, touchinge Original sinne, he allegethe against the Pelagians a great number of Fa­thers: and at length in one place speakinge of the Authoritie, reuerence, and credite he had them in, he saithe thus: Contra Iulian [...] Pelagian. Lib. 1. Quod credunt, credo, &c: VVhat they beleue, I beleue: what they holde, I holde: what they teache, I teache: what they preache, I preache. From the special to the general negatiuely, the argumente holdethe not, ye knowe, if ye haue not forgotten your Logike.

The B. of Sarisburie.

M. Hardinge, as wel here, as els where, thinkethe it an easy mater, with a bolde Asseueration to smoothe his vnlearned simple Reader, specially sutche a one, as hathe no eies to looke after him. These woordes of S, Augustine, saithe he, per­teine onely vnto the mater he had then in hande, and therefore maye not be forced to any other. And here he remembrethe vs of a profounde pointe in Logique, that a Negatiue Cōclusion from the Special to the General cannot holde. Here it were a mater woorthy the hearinge: firste, howe M. Hardinge coulde enter so déepely, to knowe so mutche of S. Augustines meaninge: next, for as mutche as in respecte of him selfe, he euermore fansiethe vs to be vnlearned, howe he were hable to teache vs to knowe the same. He assuerethe vs vpon his woorde, that these woordes of S. Augustine muste néedes be pounded, and restreined to that one onely mater, & maie not in any wise be stretched farther: & this, he imagineth, was S. Augustines mea­ninge. Thus, good Reader, by M. Hardinges handlinge, thou haste here a mea­ninge of S. Augustines, that S. Augustine himselfe neuer meante. For S. Au­gustine in the same mater, and against the same Heretique Petilian, although not in the same Booke, writethe thus: Augusti. contra Liter. Petilian. Lib. 3. Cap. 6. Siue de Christo, siue de eius Ecclesia, siue de qua­cun (que) re alia, quae pertinet ad Fidem, vitam (que) nostrā, nō dicam, Si Nos, Sed, si Angelus de Coelo nobis annuntiauerit, praeterquàm quod in Scripturis Legalibus, & Euāgelicis acce­pistis, Anathema sit: VVhether it bee of Christe, or of his Churche, or of any thinge els what so euer, perteininge either to our life, or to our Faithe, I wil not saie, If I mee selfe, but if an Angel from Heauen shal teache vs otherwise, Gala. 1. then wee haue receiued in the Bookes of the Lawe, and in the Gospelles, holde him accursed.

M. Hardinge saithe, S. Augustine meante onely of one mater: S. Augustine him selfe saithe, he meante of al manner maters, touchinge either Faithe, or Life.

M. Hardinge saithe, S. Augustine meante this onely of him selfe: S. Augu­stine him selfe saithe, De quacun­qúe re. Si Angelus de Coelo. be meante it of any other, yea euē of the Angels of God. And shal wee thinke, M. Hardinge knoweth S. Augustines meaninge, and S. Augu­stine him selfe knewe it not?

Verily S. Augustine in an other case concerninge the Arians, as I haue touched [Page 50] twise before, likewise refuseth the Determinations of al Councelles, and Fathers, and standeth onely to the Scriptures: Augusti. contra Maxi. Li. 3. ca. 14 Neither wil I, saithe he▪ allege againste thee, the Councel of Nice: nor shalt thou allege againste mée the Councel of Arimi­num, &c.

Neither dothe S. Augustine onely saye thus, but also yeeldeth a reason, why he saithe it. These be his woordes: Auferantur de medio, quae aduersus nos inuicem, non ex Diuinis Canonicis Libris, Augu. Devnita. Iccle. contra Pe­tilian. Cap. 3. sed aliundé recitamus. Quaerer fortasse aliquis, Cur vis ista auferri de medio? Quia nolo humanis Documentis, sed Diuinis Oraculis Ec­clesiam Sanctam demōstrari: Haue away al those Authorities, that either of vs allegeth against the other, sauinge sutche onely, as be taken out of the Heauenly Canonical Scriptures. But perhaps, somme man wil aske me. Wherefore would ye haue al sutche other Authorities put away? I answeare, Bicause I would haue the Holy Churche to he proued, not by the Doctrines of menne, but by the VVoorde of God.

So saithe S. Augustine vnto other the Donatistes: Augu. in Psal. 57 Auferantur de medio Char­tae nostrae: procedat in medium Codex Dei. Audi Christum dicentem: audi Veritatem lo­quentem: Take a waie from emongst vs any our own Bookes: Let the Booke of God comme emongste vs. Heare, what Christe saithe: Herken, what the Truthe speaketh.

Againe he saithe, Audi, dicit Dominus: Non, dicit Donatus, aut Rogatus, aut Vin­centius, Augu. in Epist. 48 aut Hilarius, aut Ambrosius, aut Augustinus: sed, dicit Dominus: Heare this: The Lorde saithe. Heare not this, Donatus saithe, Rogatus saithe, Vincenius saithe, Hilarius saithe, Ambrose saithe, Augustine saithe: But herken to this, The Lorde saithe.

In like fourme of woordes saithe S. Ambrose: Nolo nobis credatur: Scriptura recitetur. Ambros. De In­carnat. Domin. Sacramen. ca. 3. Chrysost. in 2. ad Corinth. Homi. 3 Non ego dico à me, In principio erat Verbum, sed audio. Non ego effingo: sed lego: I would not, ye should beleeue vs: But reade the Scriptures: I saye not of mee selfe, In the beginninge was the Woorde: But I heare it. I make it not: but I reade it.

Likewise saithe Chrysostome, Oro vos omnes, vt relinquatis, quid huic, aut illi vi­deatur: & de his à Scripturis haec omnia inquirite: I beseeche you al, weigh not, what this man, or that man thinketh: but touching al these thinges searche the Scriptures.

Nowe, where as it pleaseth M. Hardinge, to telle vs of an Argumente Nega­tiue from Special to General, and so to cal vs to the remembrance of our Logique: pleaseth it him also to remēber. that the Argument, that wee grounde of S. Augu­stines woordes, holdeth not, as it is here imagined, frō Special to General: but frō the imperfection, and weakenesse of the wisedome of man, to the stabilitie, and cer­tainetie of Goddes Holy Woorde. And therefore the Olde Learned Father Origen saithe, Origen. in Hie­remi. Homi. 1. Micro. in Psal. 86 as it is alleged before, Sensus nostri, & Enarrationes fine his testibus non habent fidem: Our iudgementes, and Expositions without these witnesses (of the Scriptures) haue no credite. In like sorte S. Hierome, Quamuis Sāctus sic aliquis post Apostolos, quam­uis disertus sit, non habet Authoritatem: After the Apostles of Christe, notwithstandinge somme man be Holy, notwithstandinge he be eloquente, yet he wanteth Authoritie. Therefore S. Augustine saithe, August De Pec­cator. Merit. & R [...]mis. li. 1. ca. 22. Cedamus, & consenuamus Scripturae Sacrae, quae nec falli potest, nec fallere: Let vs yeeld, and consente to the Holy Scripture, whiche can neither deceiue, nor be deceiued. For this cause, M. Hardinge, S. Augustine not onely in the mater that laye bitweene him and Pettlianus, but also in al other maters what soeuer, so of­ten appealed from al Fathers, and Councelles vnto the Scriptures.

The B. of Sarisburie

Faine would M. Hardinge haue his Reader beleeue, that wée vtterly despise al Holy Fathers. But wée despise them not, M. Hardinge, as maye partely appeare, by that wee haue already saide. Wée reade theire woorkes: wée reuerence them: wée geue God thankes for them: wée calle them the Pillers, the Lightes, the Fa­thers of Goddes Churche: wée despise them not. This thinge onely wée saye: Were theire Learninge, and Holinesse neuer so greate, yet be they not equal in credite with the Scriptures of God.

Thus also saithe S. Augustine, Augusti. contra Cresconi. Gram. Lib. 2. Cap. 29. August. Ad Hie­ron. Epist. 19. Nos nullam Cypriano facimus iniuriam, cùm eius qua [...]ibet literas, à Canonica Diuinarum Scripturarum Authoritate distinguimus: Wee offer no wronge to S. Cyprian, when wee seuer any his Letters, or Writinges, from the Canonical Authoritie of the Holy Scriptures. And againe, ioininge al the Doctours, and [...]athers togeather, he saithe thus: Ipse mihi pro his omnibus, imò supra hos o­mnes Apostolus Paulus occurrit. Ad ipsum confugio: ad ipsum ab omnibus, qui aliter sen­tìunt, literarum tractatoribus prouoco: In steede of al these Learned Fathers, or iather a­boue them al, Paule the Apostle commeth to my minde. To him I renne: To him I appeale from al manner Writers ( Doctours, and Fathers) that thinke otherwise.

So likewise S. Hierome, Hiero. Ad Tran­quillinum, To. 2. Ego Originem propter cruditionem sic interdum legen­dum arbitror, quomodo Tertullianum, Nouatum, Arnobium, Apollinarium, & nonnullos Ecclesiasticos Scriptores Graecos pariter, & Latinos: vt bona eorum eligamus, vitemúsque contraria: I thinke, that the Auncient Father Origen, in respecte of his Learninge, maye be readde sometimes, as Tertullian, Nouatus, Arnobius, Appollinarius, and sundrie other Ecclesi­astical VVriters, as wel Greekes, as Latines: that in them wee maye take the good, and flee the contrarie. Of this iudgemente were S. Augustine, S. Hierome, and sundrie others: whose woordes for shortnesse I passe ouer: yet were they not therefore condemned as despisers of the Holy Learned Fathers. Wée remoue you not, as you saye, from your holde, M. Hardinge. This is nothinge els, but a courrage of your coun­tenaunce. The Fathers, ye speake of, are against you. I trust, it appeareth al­ready by your former writinges, that in the Special cases, that lie bitwéene vs, ye haue but fewe Fathers to holde by.

Ye saye, Wée euermore calle you to the Scriptures. This faulte, I hope, is not so hainous. Christe hathe commaunded vs so to doo: Searche ye, saithe Christe, the Scriptures. Iohan. 5. And S. Hilarie saithe vnto the Emperoure Constantius, [Page 65] Fidem, Interpre­tation of the Scrip­tures. Imperator, quaeris? Audi eam, non denouis chartulis, sed de Dei Libris: Doothe youR Maiestie seeke the Faithe? Heare it then, not out of any newe scrolles, but out of the Bookes of God. He is rather to be suspected, that fléeth the light, and wil not be iudged by the Scriptures.

When the Scriptures be darke, Hilarius ad Im­per. Constantium and doubteful, & are alleged of bothe partes, then ye saie, ye refuse not the Vmpéereship, and iudgemente of the Holy Ghoste. But ye adde farther, The Holy Ghost is promised onely to the Churche. Nowe by your opinion there is no Churche, Petrus De Pa­lude, De potesta­te Papae, Arti. 4. Heruaeus de po­test. Papae, ca. 23. but the Churche of Roome. And the Churche of Roome is no Churche without the Pope: For one of your greate Doctours saithe, Potestas Papae solius excedit potestatem totius residuae Ecclesiae: The Popes onely power passethe al the power of the whole Churche bisides: And an other like Doctour saithe, Papa virtualiter est tota Ecclesia: The Pope by power, and vertue is the whole Churche: And thus your reason goethe round aboute, à Primo ad vltimum: Ergo, There is nei­ther Holy Ghoste, nor Interpretation, or sense of the Scriptures, but onely in the Pope. This is, Summa Summarum: whiche thinge being graunted, what should a man séeke any farther? The whole mater is at an ende.

It is true, As the Scriptures were written by the Sprite of God, so must they be expounded by the same. 2. Petri. 1. Matth. 11. Apoc. 3. Actor. 16. Iohan. 6. For without that Sprite, wée haue neither eares to heare, nor eies to sée. It is that Sprite, that openethe, and noman shuttethe: the same shuttethe, and noman openethe: The same Sprite prepared and opened the Silk womans harte, that shée shoulde geue eare to, and consider the thinges, that were spoken by S. Paule. And in respecte of this sprite the Prophete Esai saithe, Erunt omnes docti à Deo: They shalbe al taught of God.

But God hathe not bounde him selfe, that this Sprite should euermore dwel in Rome: Esai. 66. Chrysostom. De Sancto & Ado­rando Spiritu. but vpon the lowly, and humble harted, that tremblethe at the Woorde of God. Chrysostome saithe: Qui propria loquuntur▪ falsò praetendunt Spiritum Sanctū: They that speake of them selues, falsely pretende the Holy Ghoste. And againe, Si quid praeter Euangelium sub titulo Spiritus obtrudatur, ne credamus. Quia sicut Christus Le­gis, & Prophetarum impletio. est, ita est Spiritus Euangelij: If any thinge be brought vnto vs vnder the Name of the Holy Ghoste, bisides the Gospel, let vs not beleue it. For as Christe is the fulfillinge of the Lawe and the Prophetes: so is the Holy Ghoste the fulfillinge of the Gospel.

Nowe, with what Sprite the Bishoppes of Rome haue expounded vnto vs the Holy Scriptures of God, wée shal shewe it hereafter, as fitter occasion shal require.

Here, you saye, wée haue corrupted bothe the woordes, and the sense of S. Hie­rome: That we haue taken, Omnia, in stéede of, Alia: And that you haue diuised, and made nothinge of your selues: that S. Hierome meante not heereby the Tradi­tions of the Apostles, but onely the fonde fantastes, and dreames of the Heretiques called Tatians.

Of al these thinges, wée must néedes confesse, one thinge is true. In déede wée tooke, Omnia, in stéede of, Alia: and so by ouersight gaue some occasion vnto the quareler. Howe be it I doubt not, but the indifferente gentle Reader wil soone par­donne that faulte. It procéeded onely of negligence, & not of malice. Notwithstan­dinge this wante maie easily be supplied by a sufficient Commentarie. Matt. 15. Omnis. For Christe saith, Omnis, plantatio, quam non plantauerit Pater meus Coelestis, eradicabitur. Euery plante, that my heauenly Father hathe not planted, shalbe rooted out. Here, M. Hardinge, ye may borrowe, Omnia, to healpe S. Hierome.

Or, Cyprian Lib. 1. Epist. 8. Quodcun (que). if this like you not, S. Cyprian maye telle you, Adulterum est, Impium est, Sacrilegum est, quodcun (que) humano furore instituitur, vt Dispositio Diuina violetur: It is aduoùterous, it is wicked, it is abominable, what so euer is ordered by the rashenesse of man, that Goddes order shoulde be broken.

[Page 66] It is true, S. Hierome speakethe not these woordes of the Traditions of the Apostles: It is true. Yet, M. Hardinge, he speakethe these woordes of sutche fan­tasies, as were brought into the Churche of God, and magnified vnder the name and colour of the Traditions of the Apostles. Euseb. li. 3. ca. 28. [...]. Anno. 1548. Illyricus de Sect. Pag. 109. In Confe. Petri­couien. De Cere­moniis, Pag. 289. Copus Angl. Dial. 2. Pag. 194. Copus Angl. Dial. 2. Pag. 284. Iohan 16. 2 Cor. 1 [...] So Eusebius saithe, The Heretique Cherinthus brought vs in his owne Monstrous Diuises, vnder the pretense of Re­uelations, as written by some greate Apostle.

Sutche, M. Hardinge, be your Inuentions, wherewith ye haue of longe time deceiued the worlde. One of your companions the Suffragane of Sidon, at the late diete at Augusta, in the presence of the whole Empiere, doubted not to saie, that your whole Canon woorde by worde, euen as it is nowe vsed in your Masses, came directly from the Apostles. Your Hosius of Polonia saithe, that the Apostles appointed your orders of Monkes. An other of your side saithe, Christus Dux, & Signifer Vitae Monasticae: Christe was the Captaine, and standerd bearer of Monkes life: Imagininge, I trowe, that Christe was an Abbate. And yet afterwarde the same Doctour, either by some obliuion, or els vpon somme better remembrance, saithe thus: Elias, & Elizaeus D [...]ces Instituti Benedictini: Elias, and Elizaeus were the firste Captaines of S. Benettes Order. And you, M. Hardinge, haue tolde vs often, that ye haue your Priuate Masse, your Halfe Communion, and I knowe not what els, al from the Apostles. And al this ye prooue. God wote, by ful simple coniectures, bi­cause Christe saithe to his Apostles, I haue many thinges to saye vnto you: but ye are not hable to beare them yet: And bicause S. Paule saithe to the Corinthians, I wil or­der the reste, when I comme. Hereby ye beare vs in hande, that al your moste triflinge Vanities were brought vnto you by S. Paule euen from the thirde Heauens.

And although it were true, that ye saie, ye haue not diuised these thinges of of your selues, but haue receiued them al from the Apostles, and Holy Fathers, whiche thinge your conscience knowethe to be moste vntrue, yet notwithstanding the same thinges so receiued ye haue sithence fouly defaced with sundry your super­stitions. Ye haue made them necessarie to Saluation: ye haue bounde the people to them no lesse then to the Lawe of God: & so haue ye made them snares of Christian consciences. Although the thing it selfe came from the Fathers, yet the abuse therof came from your selues: and for the same ye haue taught the people to breake Goddes expresse commaundement. Esai. 1. Matt. 23. Matt. 16. Thus haue you blended Goddes heauenly wine with your puddle water: Thus haue ye strained gnattes, and swalowed camelles. This is the very Leauen of the Scribes, & Phariseis, whiche Christe calleth Hy­pocrisie. Therfore al be it the thinge it selfe, ye haue thus receiued, in respecte of substance be al one: yet now, beinge thus abused, in respecte of your Superstitions, and deformities, it is not one.

The Apostles, and Holy Fathers, vsed Oile: yet they vsed it not, as ye doo, for the Saluation of Body and Soule.

Moses erected vp the Brasen Serpente in the wildernesse: Num. 21. Iohan. 3. Ioel. cap. 1. Yet not to be adoured with Godly honoure, as it folowed afterwarde.

God commaunded the people to faste: yet not with Hypocrisie, as the wicked fasted. And therefore God saithe vnto them, Non est hoc leiunium, quod ego elegi: This is not the fastinge, Esai. 1 & 58. that I haue chosen.

God commaunded the people to kepe the Calendes, and Newe Moones: Yet not with sutche Superstition, and Abuses, as the people kepte them. And therfore God saide vnto them, Esai. 1. Matth. 23. Who required these thinges at your handes?

God commaunded sundrie Bathinges, and Wasshinges: yet vnto them, that moste precisely vsed the same, Christe saide: VVoe be vnto you ye Scribes, and Pha­riseis: in vaine they woorship mee, teachinge the Commaundementes and Doctrines of menne.

[Page 67] Yet you, M. Hardinge, haue infeaffed the Apostles of Christe, not onely with the Substance of the thinges, whiche, ye saye, ye haue receiued by Tradition, but also with al your Abuses, Superstitions, Corruptions, and Idolatries: whiche ye haue diuised of your selues. And therein ye wel resemble the Tatian Heretiques, of whome onely, ye saye, S. Hierome speaketh. But whether S. Hierome meante onely, I knowe not what fantastical dreames of the Tatians, (as you imagine onely of your selfe, without proufe, in particulare naminge nothinge) or els also al sutche Superstitious Vanities, as wee haue often, and iustly reprooued in you, it maye soone appeare by these woordes immediately folowinge: Omnem laborem manuum, Hieronym. in Aggae. Cap. 1. & Ieiunia corum, & obseruationes varias, & [...], id est, humi dor­mitiones: Al theire hande Labour, and theire Fastinges, and their Obseruations, and Vsages, and harde Sleepinge on the grounde. These and sutche other like be the thinges, whiche, menne imagine, came from the Apostles, and are striken & consumed with the Swerde of Goddes Woorde.

Thus, M. Hardinge, notwithstandinge your longe Glose biside the Texte, sée­meth to be the very meaninge of S. Hierome.

Yf ye wil yet force the contrarie, and turne al from your selues to the Tatians, as you doo, the very two lines nexte folowinge muste néedes make you blushe at your owne errour. The woordes are these, Haec autem vniuersa, quae dixi, possunt de Ecclesiae Rectoribus intelligi: Al these thinges, that I haue spoken, maye be vnder­standed of the Rulers of the Churche. Tel vs nomore therefore, M. Hardinge, of your Tatians. For S. Hierome him selfe telleth you, he meante not onely them, but also the Bishoppes, and Rulers of the Churche. And a little before he saithe, Inferrur gladius super Montes eleuantes se aduersus scientiam Dei: The Swerde of Goddes Woorde is laide vpon the Mountaines, that lifte them selues vp againste the know­ledge of God.

In this sense writeth S. Cyprian. Ad Pompeium. Cyprian: Si ad Diuinae Traditionis Caput, & Origi­nem reuertamur, cessat omnis error humanus: Yf wee returne to the Head, and begin­ninge of our Lordes Tradition, al errour of Man muste needes geue place.

In like sense also writeth Tertullian: Tertull. De Prae­scrip. Haere. Ipsa Doctrina Haereticorum cum Apo­stolica comparata, ex diuersitate, & contrarietate sua pronuntiabit, neque Apostoli alicu­ius Authoris esse, ne (que) Apostolici: The verie Doctrine of Heretiques compared with the Apostles Doctrine, by the diuersitie and contrarietie, that is bitweene that, and the other, wil soone pronounce sentence of it selfe, y ^t neither Apostle, nor Apostolique man was authour of it.

Euen thus it fareth, M. Hardinge, with a greate heape of your Doctrine. Ye saie, ye haue it by Tradition from the Apostles. Yet is it vtterly voide of al au­thoritie, or testimonie of the Scriptures. And therefore, as S. Hierome saithe, it is consumed & striken downe in the Conscience of the Godly, by the onely Swerde of Goddes Holy Woorde, as our eies sée this daye: and beinge compared with the Apostles Doctrine, (the difference, & contrarietie is so greate) it easily bewraieth it selfe, as Tertullian saithe, that it neuer came from any Apostle, nor from any other Apostolique Doctour of the Churche.

M. Hardinge.

Gratian the Emperour bucklinge him selfe as it were to encounter with the Heretike, at the firste he geueth meaninge to al to be ware of him, for that he endeuoureth to prooue his false Do­ctrine, (namely for the first pointe, that the Sonne is vnlike the Father) Versutis disputationibus, Cap. 2. VVith suttel and craftie reasoninges. He alleageth to that purpose, S. Paule to the Colossians, Ca­uere ue quis vos depraedetur pes Philosophiam: Beware that no man spoile you through Phi­losophie, and vaine deceit, &c. For (saithe be) these Heretikes put al the force of theire poisons in Logike, or Dialectical disputation, whiche by the opinion of Philosophers is desined, not to haue power to prooue, but an earnest desire to destroie and disproue. Hauinge geuen this holesome war­ninge, lest him selfe might seeme to vse that, whiche he counselleth others to beware of: to with­de awe the Emperour and al other from the guileful Logike of Arius, Ambres. De Fi­de Lib. 1. Cap. 4. at his firste entrie he saithe: I wil not that thou geue credite, Holy Emperour, to argument, and to our Disputation, (then fo­lowe the woordes. Whereof the Defenders take holde,) Scripturas interrogemus, &c. Let vs aske the Scriptures, let vs aske the Apostles, let vs aske the Prophetes, let vs aske Christe: VVhat neede many woordes? let vs aske the Father, &c.

And to this pointe of our beleefe, whiche is very highe and secrete, is that sayinge of S. Ambrose to be restrained. But that for confirmation of the Truthe in pointes whiche be nearer to common sense, and for confutation of those Heresies whiche be of lesse subteltie, of whiche sorte these Go­spellers grosse errours be, to this ende that wee ought not to vse the Testimonies of the Holy Fathers against Heretikes, Vntruthe. (for whiche purpose they alleage this place:) S. Ambrose neither in al that Booke, neither in al his woorkes speaketh so muche as one woorde.

But contrarie wise in sundry places of that woorke be alleageth the auctoritie of the Nicene Councel, as a Testimonie of good force against the Arians, and declareth a diuine Mysterie to haue benne signified by suche special number of the Fathers there assembled: Sayinge, Sic nempe no­stri secundum Scripturas dixerunt Patres: Euen thus, accordinge to the Scriptures, haue the Fathers saide. Seruemus Praecepta maiorum, &c. Let vs keepe the Preceptes of our Forefathers, neither with Temeritie of rude boldnes let vs breake the Hereditarie Seales, (he meaneth the Do­ctrine sealed by the Fathers, and left to the posteritie as it were by Heritage). VVhiche of vs wil be so hardy, as to vnseale the Priestly Booke, sealed by the Confessours, and nowe consecrated with the Martyrdome of many a one? Lo heare ye not Sirs Nothing. howe muche S. Ambrose is against you?

And though he saye, touchinge this Mysteries Let vs aske the Scriptures, Apostles, Prophetes, and Christe: yet thereby dothe he not quite exclude the Fathers. He saithe not, let vs reiect the Fathers. The Scriptures and the Fathers be not contrary: and therefore thallowinge of them, is not the dis­alowinge of these. VVho so euer maketh this argument, Vntruth. whiche in your VVoorde is implied, The Scriptures are to be asked, Ergo, the Holy Fathers are not to be asked, maketh a foolishe argument.

The B. of Sarisburie.

The greattest forte hereof is answeared already. S. Ambrose, ye saye, by this appeale to the Scriptures, excludeth not the iudgement of the Learned Fathers, but onely the cau [...]lations, and subtileties of Philosophers and Sophisters. For S. Ambrose him selfe is the same treatie often allegeth the Authoritie of the Fa­thers. Al this, M. Hardinge, is true in deede▪ Notwithstandinge there is a certaine secrete Vntruthe lapped in it. For S. Ambrose allegeth the Fathers, not as Groundes, or Principles, or Fundations of the Faithe: but onely as In­terpreters, or Witnesses, or Consenters vnto the Faithe: Whiche thinge of our [Page 69] parte was neuer denied. Nowe, whether S. Ambrose meante thus, Scriptures and Doc­tours. or no, let S. Ambrose him selfe he the Iudge. Ambr. Ad Cra­tia. De Fide, li. 1. His woordes be these, Sic nempe nostri secundum Scripturas dixerunt Patres: Thus haue our Fathers saide (not of them selues, but) accor­dinge to the Scriptures. He allegeth the Fathers, not as hauinge sufficient credite and substance in them selues, but onely as Expounders, and Interpreters of the Scriptures.

So saithe the godly Father Athanasius: Athanas. De Humanitate Verbi. Nos ista Hausimus à Magistris diuini­tùs afflatis, qui Sacros Libros euoluerunt: These thinges haue we learned of our Maisters ( or Fathers) inspired from Heauen, whiche haue Readde and perused the Holy Scriptures. For S. Augustine very wel saithe, August. Contra Cresconi. Gram­ma. Li. 2 Ca. 29. Hierony. in E­pisto. ad Ephes. Lib. 3. Cap. 5. Secundum hos Libros de coeteris Literis, vel Fi­delium, vel Infidelium liberè iudicamus: Accordinge to those Bookes of the Scriptures wee iudge frankely of al other writinges, whether they be of the Faitheful, or of the Vn­faitheful. Therefore S. Hierome saithe, Omni studio legendae nobis sunt Scripturae, & in Lege Domini meditandum die ac nocte: vt probati trapezitae sciamus, quis numus probus sit, quis adulterinus: Wee muste Reade the Scriptures with al diligence, and muste bee occupied in the Lawe of our Lorde bothe daie and nighte: that wee maye become perfite exchangers, and be hable rightly to discerne, what Monie is lawful, and what is Counterfaite. S. Hilarie saithe, Hoc proprium est Apostolicae. Doctrinae, Deum ex Lege, ac Prophe­tis in Euangelijs praedicare: Hilari. in Psal. 65. This is the very order of the Apostles Doctrine, in the Gospel to Preache God out of the Lawe and the Prophetes.

Otherwise, touchinge the discourse of natural reason, S. Ambrose saithe, No Creature either in Earthe, or in Heauen is hable to reache the deapthe of these thinges. Thus he saithe: Mens deficit: Vox silet, non mea tantùm, sed Angelorum. Supra potestates, Ambro. ad Gra­tianum de Fide, Lib. 1. Cap. 5. supra Angelos, supra Cherubim, supra Seraphim, supra omnem sen­sum est: The minde is astonned: the voice faileth, not onely mine, but also of the Angelles. It is aboue the powers, aboue the Angelles, aboue the Cherubius, aboue the Seraphins, and a­boue al manner vnderstandinge. And therefore he saithe, as it is alleaged once before, Nolo nobis credatur: Scriptura recitetur: Ambros. De In­carnationis Do­minicae Sacra­cramen. Ca. 3. Non ego dico à me, In principio erat Verbum, Sed audio: I woulde not, ye shoulde beleeue mee: Lette the Scriptures be readde: I saye not of mee selfe, In the beginninge vvas the VVoorde: but I heare it spoken. And againe he saithe in the same Booke vnto the Emperour Gratian: Ambros. ad Gra­tian. Imperator. Lib. 1. Cap. 7. Facessat nostra Sententia: Paulum interrogemus: Let our Iudgemente stande aparte: and let vs aske S. Paule the question.

But M. Hardinge saithe, VVhoso euer maketh this argumente, whiche in your VVoorde is implied, The Scriptures are to be asked: Ergo, the Holy Fathers are not to be asked, maketh a foolishe argumente.

It seemeth no greate pointe of Wisedome, M. Hardinge, to vpbraide others with folie without cause: God encrease bothe you and vs in al wisedome, and vn­derstandinge in Christe Iesu. How be it, our Argumente, howe so euer it hathe pleased you to fashon, and to handle it, as we meante it, and made it, had no sutche Folie. Wherefore, what so euer Folie is nowe come to it, it is your owne: it is not ours. For wée denie not the Learned Fathers expositions, and iudgementes in doubteful cases of the Scriptures. Wée reade them our selues: Wée folowe them: Wée embrace them: and, as I saide before, wée moste humbly thanke God for them. But thus wée saie, The same Fathers opinions, and iudgementes, for as mutche as they are sometimes disagréeable one from an other, and sometimes implie contrarieties, and contradictions, therefore alone, and of them selues, with­out farther authoritie, and guidinge of Goddes Woorde, are not alwaies suffici­ent Warrantes to charge our Faithe. And thus the Learned Catholique Fathers themselues haue euermore taught vs to esteeme, and to weighe the Fathers.

The Ancient Father Origen saithe thus, as it is reported before; Ex Solis [Page 70] Scripturis examinationis nostrae discretio petenda est: The discussinge of our Iudgemente, muste be taken Onely of the Scriptures. And againe, Sensus nostri, & enarrationes sine Scripturis testibus non habent fidem: Origen. in E­pist. ad Roma. Lib. 10. Cap. 16. Ex Solis. Origen. in Hie­remt. Homi. 1. August. De Na­tura & Gratia, Ca 61. Our Iudgementes, and Expositions without witnesse of the Scriptures haue no credite. Likewise S. Augustine, Ego Solis Cano­nicis Scripturis debeo sine vlla recusatione consensum: My consent without exception I owe ( not vnto any Father, were he neuer so wel learned, but) Onely to the Holy Canonical Scriptures. His reason is this: Nam cùm Dominus [...]acuerit, quis nostrum dicat, Illa, vel illa sunt? Aut si dicere audet, vnde probat? For where as the Lorde him selfe hath not spoken, who of vs can saie, It is this, or that? Or if he dare saie so, howe can he prooue it?

And therefore he concludeth directly and in like woordes with S. Ambrose: Augustin. in Io­han. Tracta. 96. August. De Pa­storib. Ca. 14. Ego vocem Pastoris inquiro. Lege hoc mihi de Propheta: Lege de Psalmo: Recita de Lege: Recita de Euangelio: Recita de Apostolo: I require the voice of the Shephearde: Reade me this mater out of the Prophete: Reade it mee out of the Psalmes: Reade it out of the Lawe: Reade it out of the Gospel: Reade it out of the Apostles.

M. Hardinge.

VVe doo so. For they condemned those that went against the Tradition of the Fathers, and so doo wee. Iohan. 14. The Scriptures consiste not in inke and paper, but in the sense. VVhiche sense the Holy Ghoste by Christes promise hath taught the Churche.

Epiphanius refutinge the Heretikes whiche named them selues Apostolikes, Haereei. 61. Scripture nes­deth Speculatiō. Traditiō neces­sa [...]ie, bicause Scripture hathe not al thinges. Recognition. Lib. 10. saithe, that the Scri­ptures haue neede of Speculation that is to witte, to be wel studied and considered) to the ende the force and power of euery argument maye be knowen. It behoueth vs also (saithe he) to vse the Tra­dition: For wee can not haue al thinges of the Holy Scripture. Thus Epiphanius. By Tradition without doubte he meaneth the sense and vnderstandinge receiued of the Fathers. For that is the Keie of the VVoorde of God, as S. Peter taught, by report of S. Clement. This sense and vnderstandinge of the Lawe had the Ministers of the Lawe, to whome the Traditions of Moses and of the Elders came as it were by handes. Nowe wee require you to admitte this Tradition, that is to saye, the [Page 71] Catholike sense and vnderstandinge of the Scriptures, whiche hathe benne deliuered vnto vs by the Holy Fathers of al Ages, and of al Countries, where the Faithe hath benne receiued. And then we wil calle you againe to be tried by the Scriptures.

This haue the Catholikes layde before you oftentimes, and this doo we shewe you in this Confu­tation. L [...]c. 10. He that despiseth you, despiseth mee, saithe Christe of his Churche. Ye despise the Catho­like Churche, and therefore ye despise Christe.

What neede so many questions Sirs? Your hote Rhetorike sheweth more courage in woorde, then Victorie in deede. Ye calle vs foorthe to the Scriptures, Great bragges made by the Defenders, of thassurance of the Scriptures. as it were to the fielde. Ye strike vs downe with woordes, before ye come to encounter. To shewe your brauerie in the mo [...]stre, ye referre your controuersies vnto the Holy Scriptures, ye reporte you vnto the woordes sealed by God himselfe: but we the Catholikes, as ye pretende, sticke at it: we be afraide of it, we doubte of th [...] mater, we feare the Iudgement of Holy Scriptures, we preferre our owne dreames and colde inuen­tions. VVel, nowe that ye haue tolde your lusty tale, heare our sober answeare. Often [...] times the true Scriptures are stretched foorthe to serue euil and false purposes. The Iewes went about by the Scriptures to prooue, that Christe was not so muche as a I [...]ophete. Iohan. 7. For they saide, Vntruth: For the vvoordes are other­vvise. Searche the Scrip­tures, and see, that a Prophete riseth not out of Galiley. By the Scriptures they would needes shewe him woorthy to die. Iohan. 19. We haue a Lawe, quod they, and by our Lawe he ought to die, because he hath made him selfe the Sonne of God The Diuel by alleaginge Scripture, would haue deceiued our Sauiour him selfe, and saide vnto him: Scriptum est, Matth. 4. De Fide. li. 2. c. [...] Marke. 10. It is written. The Arians were ful of the Scriptures, and by the same, as S. Ambrose writeth, went about to prooue, that Christe the author of al goodnesse was not good. It is written, quoth they, Nemo bonus nisi vnus Deus, None is good, but onely God. Likewise the Macedonians, the Nestorians, the Eutychians.

Now in this case, your selues dooinge the like, what may wee doo better, then honour the Scrip­tures, and seeke for their right Sense and Vnderstandinge? Scriptum est, It is Scripture (saith S. Ambrose to the allegation of the Arians) I acknowlege, but the letter hath not the errour: woulde God the Arians interpretation had not. Apices sine crimine sunt, sensus in crimine. The letters be without crime: the sense is in crime. Hilari. De Tri­nita. Li. [...]. From the vnderstanding commeth Heresie, not from the Scri­pture: the sense, not the woorde, becommeth to be a crime, saith S. Hilary, Sithens then al standeth in the sense, let vs agree first vpon the sense and interpretation of the Scriptures: and then if we be not as ready as ye, come foorth when ye liste, vpbraide vs hardely, and say lustely, as here ye doo, why sticke they to doo it? why are they afraide of it?

As for the true sense and interpretation of the Scriptures, where shal wee finde it, but, as be­fore wee saide, Matthae 7. Iohan. 4. Esai. 59. in the Catholike Churche? The Churche hauinge Christe remaininge with it al daies to the ende of the worlde, hauinge by promise of Christe the Sprite of truethe, remaininge in it for euer, hauing by Goddes owne ancient promise bothe the woordes, whiche the Father hath put in the mouthe of Christe, and the Sprite whiche he putte in him, whereby it may vnderstand the meaninge of Goddes woordes: wee maie not now seeke for the true sense, vnderstanding, and interpretation of the Scriptures any where, but in the Churche. Your owne Doctour Iohn Caluine him selfe▪ In Epist. ad H [...] ­braeos. whom ye folowe and esteeme so mutche, admonisheth very wel, and saithe, it is specially to be noted, that out of the Churche there is no light of the sounde vnderstandinge of the Scriptures. This ground beinge laide, on whiche eche parte must stande and be tried in, crowe no more againste vs, boast your selues no more: Vntruthe. VVe feare not the iudgement of the Holy Scriptures. Nay it is your selues, that feare this iudg­ment. For your owne conscience telleth you that on this ground ye are the weaker side. Yf ye stande with vs on this grounde, ye shal neuer be able to defende your Maister Iohn Caluines doctrine touch­inge Baptisme, Vntruthe. For he de­baseth not the Sacra­ment of Baptisme whiche h [...]aketh to be of so litle force, against the manifest Scripture: Let eue­ry one of you (saithe S. Peter) be Baptized in the name of Iesus Christe, to Remission of Sinnes. Keepinge this grounde Vntruth. ye shal be borne from your Doctrine touchinge Absolution, denyinge the Prieste to haue power to absolue penitentes by his Priestly Auctoritie, but by Preachinge the Go­spel to them, contrarie to the plaine Scripture: VVhose Sinnes ye [...]orgeue, they are forgeuen to them: VVhose ye retaine, they are reteined. Yf ye refuse not this grounde, ye shal be forced to re­store the Sacrament of extreme Vnction▪ and the vse of Holy Oyle againe, whiche ye haue abandoned.

[Page 72] For what haue ye to saye against the Scripture, Iacob. 5. It any sicke amonge you? Let him cause the Priestes of the Churche to come in to him, anointinge him with Oile, in the name of our Lorde? Ab [...]dinge in this grounde, ye shal be driuen to forsake your Zwinglian doctrine, whiche putteth Signes and Fi­gures I onely in the Sacrament of the Aultar, for the True and Real Body of Christe there 2 presente. Three and dente Vn­truthes. contrarie to the 3 cleare Scripture, This is my Bodie. Beinge on this grounde, ye shal soone geue ouer the maintenance of the Doctrine of your special Faithe, and of your Iustification by Faithe onely, Iacob. 2. as beinge contrary to the plaine Scripture, Man is iustified by woorkes, and not by Faithe onely. To conclude (for, to shewe in howe many pointes ye maye be confuted by euident Scriptures, it were in maner infinite) if ye wil admitte this for a good grounde, as ye midste needes admitte: then shal ye not mainteine the Presumptuous Doctrine of your certaintie of Grace and Saluation, contrary to that S. Paule counselleth, Philip. 2. VVith feare and tremblinge woorke your Saluation.

The B. of Sarisburie.

Whereas wée make reasonable request [...], that God maye be vmpéere in his owne cause, and that al our controuersies maye be iudged, and tried by the Holy Scriptures, M. Hardinge thereto answeareth thus: The Scripture standeth not in the Wordes, but in the Sense: and the same Sense is continued by Tradition in the Churche. Otherwise, he saithe, the Iewes, the Arians, the Nestorians, the Eutychians, and al other Heretiques were alwaies hable to claime by the Scriptures. To conclude, he maketh vp a greate emptie heape, of the force of Ba­ptisme, of Holy Oile, of Extreme Unction, of Absolution of Signes, of Figures, of Onely Faithe, and, as it liketh him to calle it, of the Presumptuous Doctrine of the Certainetie of Saluation: in euery of whiche thinges, he saithe, the Scriptures are cleare of his side, and directly against vs.

To answears al these pointes in particulare, it would require an other Booke. But briefely to touche so mutche onely, as shalbe néedeful, First, that the Sub­stance of the Scriptures standeth in the right Sense, and Meaninge, and not one­ly in the naked, and bare woordes, it is true, and generally graunted without ex­ception, and needeth no farther proufe. Hiero [...]y. contra Luciferian. Hilari. De Tri­uitate, Li. 4. S. Hierome saithe, Non in Legendo, sed in Intelligendo Scripturae consistunt: The Scriptures stande, not in the Readinge, but in the Vnderstandinge. And S. Hilarie, Non Diuinorum dictorum, sed intelligentiae nostrae à nobis ratio praestanda est: Wee muste yeelde an accoumpte, not of Goddes Diuine Woordes, but of our owne Expositions.

But if that onely be the right Meaninge, and Sense of the Scriptures, that within these fewe late hundred yéeres is cropen into the Churche of Rome: and if it be al Gospel, what so euer it bée, that arriueth from thence: and if they be al He­retiques, and Schismatiques, and Despisers of Christe, and of the Apostles, and of the Uniuersal Churche, that make staie at it, or cānot receiue it, then is the whole mater already concluded: wée shal néede no more adoo.

Ye saie, The Iewes, the Arians, the Nestorians, and other Heretiques alleged the Scriptures. Yea verily, M. Hardinge, and that euen with like Faithe, and in like Sense, and to like purpose, as you allege them nowe: as hereafter, I truste, it shal appeare. By the waye, for example hereof, in this very place, where you allege the woordes of the Pharise is auouchinge the Scriptures, Iohan. 7. [...]. Chrysostom. Augustinus. it maye please you to re­member, that either witingly, or of some errour, and ouersight, ye haue manifestly corrupted the Scriptures. For, whereas you haue translated the place thus, Searche the Scriptures: the Phariseis saide nothinge els, but Scrurare, & Vide, Searche, and see: and spake not one woorde of the Scriptures. And although the mater importe not mutche, yet to charge you with your owne rule, whiche muste needes be good against your selfe, any smal faulte in Goddes Woorde must be coun­ted greate. In deede S. Chrysostome, and S. Augustine séeme to supplie this [Page 73] woorde, Scriptures, although it were not in the Texte.

Touchinge the mater it selfe, Oile. Figure. Signe. Nicolas Lyra saithe, Nicol. Lyra in 7. Cap. Iohan. Hoe Verbum eorum sim­pliciter falsum est. Quia, si intelligatur de Prohetis generaliter, aliqui fuerunt nati de Galilaea: videlicet, Elizaeus, Tobias, & Debora Prophetissa, & fortè plures alij; This woorde of the Phariseis is plainely false. For if it be taken generally of al Prophetes, then were there certaine of them borne in Galilei, namely Elizaeus, Tobias, Debora, and per­chance others moe. In sutche sorte, M. Hardinge, euen with like Faithe and credite, you also haue vsed, to allege the Scriptures.

But whereto driue you al this longe tale? Wil you in the ende conclude thus: The Iewes, and Heretiques alleged the Scriptures: Ergo, Faitheful Christians maye not allege them? Or thus, Théeues haue sometimes armed them selues: Ergo, True menne maye not be armed? Nay, wée maye rather saye thus vnto you: The Iewes, and Heretiques alleged the Scriptures: What accoumpte then maye wée make of you, that flée, and condemne, and burne the Scriptures?

Certainely notwithstandinge the Phariseis, Iohan. 5. and Heretiques wickedly mis­alleged the Scriptures, as ye sometimes doo to scrue your purpose, yet for al that, Christe saide vnto them, Scrutamini Scripturas: Searche the Scriptures: And, Cap. 9. Diuisi. [...] as it is saide before, the Catholique learned Fathers in al theire cases, and controuersies appealed euermore to the Scriptures.

Where you saye, The Scriptures are so cleare of your side▪ and make so direct­ly againste vs: would God ye woulde in deede, and vnfainedly stande to that trial. Your fansies, and folies woulde soone come to grounde.

Touchinge your greate heape of examples, of the Sacramente of Baptisme defaced, as you saye, by M. Caluine: of Absolution, of Extreme Unction, of Holy Oile, of Signes, of Figures, of Onely Faithe, & of the certainetie of Saluation, whiche you calle Presumptuous: Firste of the Sacramente of Baptisme, M. Cal­uine euery where writeth with al manner reuerence, callinge it a Diuine, and an Heauenly Mysterie, and the Sacramente of our Redemption: Wherein also some­times he iustly reprooueth you, for that ye haue so many waies, so profanely, and so vnreuerently abused the same. Of Absolution wée shal haue occasion to saye more hereafter.

Touchinge your Oile, in déede in shewe of woordes, S. Iames séemeth to make somewhat for you. Notwithstandinge neither doothe he calle it Holy Oile, as ye doo: neither doothe he calle it a Sacramente of the Churche: nor doothe he saye, as ye saie, it should serue for the Saluation of Body, and Soule: nor doothe he teache you to salute it, and to speake vnto it, as to a liuely, and reasonable Creature, Aue Sanctum Oleum, Alhaile Holy Oile: nor with these woordes to minister it vnto the sicke: Per hanc Sanctam Vnctionem, & suam pijssimā Misericordiam, ignoscat tibi Deus: By this Holy enointinge, and his deere mercie, God Pardonne thee. To be shorte, it was a miraculous gifte of Healinge, lastinge onely, as other like Miracles did, for the time: not a necessary Sacramente of the Churche to continewe for euer.

As for the Obiection of Signes, and Figures, for shortnesse of time, The. 12. Article. I muste re­ferre thée, gentle Reader, vnto my Former Replie to M. Harding. The woordes of Christe, whiche are thought to be so plaine, the Anciente Learned Father Tertul­lian expoundeth thus: Tertullian. con­tra Marcion. Lib. 4. Figure. Signe. Hoc est Corpus meum: Hoc est, Figura Corporis mei: This is my Body: that is to saye, This is a Figure of my Body. Likewise S. Augustine, Non dubitauit Dominus dicere, Hoc est Corpus meum, cùm daret Signum Corporis sui: Our Lorde doubted not to saye, This is my Body, when he gaue a Signe of his Body.

To rehearse al other like Ancient Authorities, it were too longe. O what tri­umphes would M. Hardinge make, if none of al the Olde Learned Fathers coulde be founde, that euer had called the Sacrament, the Signe, and Figure of Christes Body? But, as before he alleged an imagined Sense of the Scriptures without [Page 74] woordes, Onely Faithe. so nowe he allegeth the woordes alone without sense. He shoulde haue remembred better, that S. Hierome saithe, Ne putemus, Hierony in [...] ­pist. ad Gala. Cap. [...]. in Verbis Scripturarum es­se Euangelium, sed in Sensu: Let vs not thinke, the Gospel standeth in the VVoordes of the Scriptures, but in the Meaninge.

Twoo other greate quarelles M. Hardinge moueth: the one of Onely Faithe: the other, as he calleth it, of the Presumptuous Certainetie of Saluation. Wherein iudge thou vprightly, good Christian Reader, how iuste cause he hath to reprooue our Doctrine.

As for the firste hereof, Roma. [...]. S. Paule saithe, Iustificamur Gratis ex Gratia ipsius: Wee be Iustified Freely of his Grace: wee Iudge that a man is Iustified by Faithe, without the VVorkes of the Lawe: Wee knowe, that a man is not Iustified by the VVoorkes of the Lawe, but by the Faithe of Christe. M. Hardinge wil saie, Yet hitherto of, Sola Fides, that is, of Onely Faithe, wée heare nothinge. Notwithstandinge, when S. Paule excludeth al manner Woorkes bisides Onely Faithe, what els then lea­ueth he, but Faithe alone?

How be it, if it be so horrible an Heresie, to saye, Wée be Iustified before God by Onely Faithe, that is to saie, Onely by the Merites & Crosse of Christe, let vs sée, what the Holy Learned Fathers of the Churche so many hundred yéeres agoe, haue taught vs thereof.

S. Ambrose saithe, Ambros. in [...] ­pist ad Roman. Cap 4. Iustificati sunt Gratis, quia nihil Operantes, neque vicem red­dentes, Sola Fide Iustificati sunt dono Dei: They are Iustified Freely: Bicause woorkinge nothinge and requitinge nothinge, Ambros. Eodē loco they are Iustified by Onely Faithe through the gifte of God. Againe, Sic decretum est à Deo, vt, cessante Lege, Solam Fidem Gratia Dei pos­ceret ad Salutem: This was Goddes determination, that, the Lawe surceasinge, the Grace of God shoulde require Onely Faithe vnto Saluation. Ambros. in Epist. ad Roma. Ca. 9. Basil. De Humint­litate: [...]. Theodorer. De Curandis Grae­corum affecti­bus. Lib. 7. Nazia [...]. [...]. Origen. in E­pist. ad Roma. C [...]. 3. Li. 3. Hesychi. in Le­uiti. Li. 4. Chrysost. in E­pist ad Galat. Cap. 3. And againe, Sola Fides posita est ad Salutem: Onely Faithe is saide, or appointed vnto Saluation. S. Bastle saithe, Nouis se esse inopem Verae Iustitiae: Sola autem Fide in Christum esse Iustificatum: He knoweth him selfe to be voide of True Righteousnesse: and to be Iustified by Onely Faithe in Christe.

Theodoretus saithe, Non vllis Operibus nostris, sed per Solam Fidem Mystica bo­na consequuti sumus: Not by any VVoorkes of ours, but by Onely Faithe we haue gotten the Mystical good thinges.

Nazianzenus saithe, [...]: Credere solum est Iustitia: Onely Beleeuinge is Righteousnesse.

Origen saithe, Vbi est gloriario tua? Exclusa est. Dicit sufficere Solius Fidei Iusti­ficationem: ita vt credens quis Tantūmodo Iustificetur, etiāsi Nihil boni Operis fecerit: VVhere nowe is thy boastinge ( of thy good Woorkes)? It is shutte out. Paule saithe, that the Iustification of Onely Faithe is Sufficiente: So that a man Onely Beleeuinge maye be Iustified, although he haue donne no good woorke at al.

Hesychius saithe, Gratia ex Misericordia, atque Compassione praebetur, & Fide comprehenditur Sola: The Grace of God is geuen onely of Mercie, and Pauoure: and is embraced, and receiued by Onely Faithe.

I leaue a greate number of others, that haue written the like, as wel Gréekes, as Latines. In steede of them al, S. Chrysostome saithe thus: Illi dicebant, Qui Sola Fide nititur, Execrabilis est: Hic contrà demonstrat, eum, qui Sola Fide nititur, Be­nedictum esse: They saide, who so staieth him selfe by onely Faithe, is accursed: Contra­r [...]ewise S. Paule prooueth, that who so stayeth him selfe by Onely Faithe, he is Blessed.

Touchinge the woordes of S. Iames, yf M. Hardinge wel considered the E­quiuocation, or double vnderstanding of this woorde, Iustification, he might soone, and easily haue espied his owne errour. Roma. 4. For when S. Paule saithe, Abraham was Iustified by Faithe without VVoorkes of the Lawe, he teacheth vs, how Abraham was receiued into fauour, and Iustified before God: Of the other side, S. Iames, when [Page 75] he saithe, Certaine­tie of Faithe. Abraham was Iustified by VVoorkes, and not by Faithe Onely, he speaketh of the woorkes that folowe Iustification, & of the Fruites of Faithe: Without whiche Fruites Abrahams Faithe had benne no Faithe.

S. Augustine saithe, Non sunt contrariae duorum Apostolorum Sententiae, August. in. Li 83. quae. Quae. 76. Iacob. 5. Pauli, & Iacobi: Cùm dicit Paulus, Iustificari hominem sine Operibus: & Iacobus dicit, inanem esse Fidem sine Operibus. Quia Paulus loquitur de Operibus, quae Fidem praecedunt: Iacobus de ijs, quae Fidem sequntur: The saieinges of the twoo Apostles, Paule, and Iames are not contrarie, where as Paule saithe, A man is Iustified without Woorkes: and Iames saithe, Faithe without Woorkes is in vaine. For Paule speaketh of the VVorkes that goe before Faithe: James speaketh of the VVorkes, that folowe after Faithe.

Yf M. Hardinge shal thinke, S. Augustines authoritie herein is not sufficient, Thomas of Aquine wil auouche y ^e same. His woordes be these: Thomas Aquin. in Epist. Iacobi. Cap. 5. Iacobus hic loquitur de Operibus sequentibus Fidem: quae dicuntur Iustificare, non secundum quod Iustifica­re dicitur Iustitiae infusio: sed secundum quod dicitur Iustitiae Exercitatio, vel Ostensio, vel Consummatio. Res enim dicitur fieri, quando perficitur, vel innotescit: Iames in this place speaketh of sutche woorkes, as folowe Faithe: whiche woorkes are saide to Iustifie, not as Iustification is the procuring of Righteousnesse: but in that it is an Exercise, or a shew­inge, or a Perfitinge of Righteousnesse. For wee saye, A thinge is donne, when it is perfi­ted, or knowen to be donne.

Nowe concerninge the assurance, or Certainetie of Saluation, the Scriptures are fulle. S. Paule saithe, There is no damnation to them that be in Christe Iesu: Roma. 8. The Sprite of God beareth witnesse to our Sprite, that wee are the Children of God: I knowe, that neither Deathe, nor Life, nor Angels, nor Powers, nor Principalities, nor thinges presente, nor thinges to come, nor Highth, nor Deapthe, nor duy Creature els shalbe hable to remooue me from that Loue, that God beareth to wardes mee in Christe Iesu our Lorde.

But for as mutche as these woordes perhaps haue not the Sense of the Churche of Roome, without whiche, in M. Hardinges iudgemente, the Scripture of God is no Scripture, let vs sée the Sense, and Exposition of the Holy Fathers.

Tertullian saithe, Vt certum esset, nos esse Filios Dei, misit Spiritum suum in cor­da no [...]tra clamantem, Tertull. Contra Marcion. Lib. 5. Abba, Pater. That wee might be certified, that we bee the Children of God, he hath sente the Holy Ghoste into our hartes, crieinge, Abba, Father.

Clemens Alexandrinus saithe, Clemens in Pae­dagogo. li. 1. c. 6. Re vera Sanguis Fidei est Spes, in qua contine­tur, vt Fides in anima. Cùm autem Spés expirauerit, perinde acsi sanguis effluxerit, vl­talis Fidei facultas dissoluitur: In deede Hope is; as it were, the Bloudde of Faithe: in whiche Faithe Hope is conteined, euen as Faithe is conteined in the Soule. And when Hope is gonne, then is al the Liuely power of Faithe dissolued, as if the Bloudde were sheadde out of the Body.

S Cyprian saithe, Et tu dubitas, & fluctuas? Hoc est Deum omnin [...] non nosse: Cyprian. De Mortalita. Ser­mon. 4. Hoc est Christum Credentium Magistrum peccato incredulitatis offendere: Hoc est, in Ecclesia constitutum, Fidem in Domo Fidei non habere: And dooste thou stagger, and stande in doubte ( of thy Saluation)? That were as mutche as not to knowe God: that were as mutche as with the sinne of vnbeliefe, to offende Christe the Maister of Beleeuers: That were as mutche as beinge in the Churche, in the House of Faithe, to haue no Faithe.

Prosper saithe, Prosper, De pro­miss & Praedi­ctionib. Dei. Par. 1. Ca. 16. Securi diem Iudicij expectant, quibus in Cruce Domini glorian­tibus mundus Crucifixus est, & ipsi Mundo: They, vnto whome the worlde is Cru­cified, and are Crucified vnto the worlde, waite for the daye of Iudgemente without feare.

But to leaue the Ancient Fathers of olde time, and to put the mater quite out of doubte, One Antonius Marinarius in the late Councel of Tridente in open audience saide thus: Si Coelum ruat, si Terra euanescat, si Orbis illabatur prae­ceps, Concil. Triden­tin. Act. 1. An­no. 1546. ego in eum erectus ero. Si Angelus de Coelo aliud mihi persuadere contendat, [Page 76] dicam illi Anathema. Certaine­tie of Faithe. O Foelicem Christiani pectoris fiduciam: Yf the Heauen shoulde fal, yf the Earthe shoulde vanishe, yf the whole worlde shoulde come downe headlonge, yet woulde I stande preste, and bolde before God. Yf an Angel from Heauen woulde tel mee otherwise, I would accurse him. O the Blessed truste ( and certainetie) of a Chri­stian Harte.

Certainely, M. Hardinge, it were a very Presumptuous parte, to saye, that these Fathers, Greekes, Latines, Newe, Olde, your owne, and ours, were al Presumptuous. Yf it be so Presumptuous a mater to put affiance in the Merites of Christe, what is it then, to put affiance in our owne Merites? S. Paule hath taught vs to saye, Galat. 6. Basil in Psal 32. [...]. God forebidde that I shoulde glorie, but onely in the Crosse of Christe. S. Basile saithe, Qui non fidit suis Meritis, nec expectat ex Operibus Iustificati, Vnā, & Solam spem habet salutis suae, Misericordias Domini: Who so trusteth not in his owne Merites, nor looketh to be Iustified by his owne Woorkes, hath his onely hope of Saluation in the Mercies of our Lorde.

So saithe Iob in al his miseries, Etiamfi me occiderit, sperabo in eum. Verun­tamen vias meas in conspectu eius arguam: Iob. 13. Psalm. 70. Although he kisse mee, yet wil I put my trust in him: Notwithstandinge I wil reprooue my waies before his sighte. So y ^• Prophete Dauid, In thee O Lorde haue I trusted: I wil neuer be confoūded. This is no Presumption, but a patiente, and an humble waitinge for the Redemption of the Children of God. It is moste true, Philip. 2. that S. Paule saithe, Wee must woorke our owne Saluation with feare, and tremblinge. But this feare riseth in consideration of our owne weakenesse, and vnwoorthinesse: not of any distruste, or doubte in Goddes mercie. But rather the lesse cause wée finde to truste in our selues, the more cause wée haue to truste in God. August. De ver­bis Domi. Ser­mo. 28. Therefore S. Augustine saithe, Praesume, non de Operatione tua, sed de Christi Gratia. Gratia enim saluati estis, inquit Apostolus. Non ergo hic Arrogan­tia est, sed Fides. Praedicare quod acceperis, non est Superbia, sed Deuotio: Presume thou, not of thine owne woorkinge, but of the Grace of Christe: For the Apostle saithe, Ye are saued by Grace. Heere therefore is not Presumption, but Faithe. To proclaime that thou haste receiued, it is no Pride, it is Deuotion.

Againe he saithe, August. in Io­han. Tracta. 22. Basil. De humi­litate: [...]. Non mea Praesumptione, sed ipsius Promissione in iudicium non venio: It is not of my Presumption, but of his Promisse, that I shal not comme into Iudge­mente. S. Basile saithe, Paulus Gloriatur de contemptione Iustitiae suae: Paule ( pre­sumeth, and) boasteth of the contempte of his owne Righteousnesse. So saithe S. Am­brose: Non gloriabor, quia iustus sum: sed quia redemptus sum, gloriabor: Non quia vacuus sum à peccatis, sed quia mihi remissa sunt peccara. Non gloriabor, quia profui, neque quia profuit mihi quisquam: sed quia pro me Aduocatus apud Patrem Christus est: sed quia pro me Christi Sanguis effusus est: I wil not glorie, for that I am a iuste man: But for that I am redeemed, th [...]refore wil I glorie: Not for that I am voide of sinne: Ambros. de Ia­cabo, & vita Beata. but for that my Sinnes be forgeeuen mee. I wil not glorie, for that I haue donne good to any man, nor for that any man hath donne good to wee: but for that Christe is my Aduo­cate with the Father, and for that Christes Bloudde was shead for mee.

Therefore S. Augustine saithe, August. Confess. Lib. 11. Cap. 7. Quid retribuam Domino, quo'd recolit haec me­moria mea, & anima mea non meruit inde? VVhat shal I re [...]der vnto our Lorde, for that I calle to remembrance al these my sinnes, and yet my Soule thereof is not afraide?

To be shorte, thus saithe S. Bernarde: Bernard. in Cā ­ti. Cantico. Sermo. 61. Vbi tura firma (que) infirmis securitas, & re­quies, nisi in vulneribus Saluatoris? Tant [...] illic securior hab [...]to, quant [...] ille potentior est ad saluandum, &c. Peccaui peccatum grande: turbatur conscientia, sed non per­turbabitur: quoniam vulnerum Domini recordabor. Nempe vulneratus est propter ini­quitates nostras: What safe teaste or sur [...]tie can the weake Scule finde, but in the w [...]des of our Saueour? As he is mightier to saue, so dwel I there with more safetie &c. I haue committed a greate Since: My conscience is troubled: Yet shal it not bee shaken downe: [Page 77] bicause I wil remember my Lordes woundes. Esai. 53. For he was wounded for our Sinnes.

Thus, M. Hardinge, to be assured of our Saluation, S. Augustine saithe, it is no arrogante stoutenesse: It is our Faithe. It is no Pride: It is Deuotion. It is no Presumption: It is Goddes Promisse.

But your whole Doctine of the truste in Mennes Merites leadeth directly to Desperation. And therefore S. Cyprian saithe wel of you: Cyprian. De Sim­pli. Praela. Asserunt Noctem pro Die: Interitum, pro Salute: Desperationem; sub obtent Spei. Perfidiani, sub praetex [...]u Fi­del: Antichristum, sub vocabulo Christi: They teach [...] vs Nighte in steede of Daie: Dei struction in tleede of Healthe: Desperation vnder the coloure: of Hope: Infidelitie vnder the pretense of Faithe: Antichriste vnder the name of Christe.

Nowe a litle to viewe the groundes of M. Hardinges longe discourse: whereas he so often and so earnestly telleth vs of the Sense of the Scriptures, as if wee had Scriptures without Sense, his meaninge thereby is onely to leade vs awaye to the Sense of the Churche of Rome: Alberius Piggh. Hierar. li. 1. ca. 4. Ecki [...]s De Ec­clesia. Whiche Sense, Albertus Pigghius saithe, Is the Infallible, and Inflexible Rule of Truthe. Echius saithe, Scriptura, nisi Eccle­siae Authoritate, non est Authentica: The Scriptures of God are not Authentical, or of cre­dite, but onely by the warrante and Authoritie of y ^• Churche. And Hosius in like manner, Apostoli, Hosius in Con­fessione vetri­couien. Ca. 80. cùm Symbolum traderem, nunquam dixerunt, Credo Sancta Biblia, aut Sanctum Euangelium: sed dixerunt, Credo Sanctam Ecclesiam: The Apostles, when they deliuered the Crede, they neuer saide, I beleeue the Holy Bible, or the Holy Gospel: but they saide, I beleeue the Holy Churche. Thus nowe the mater is sure yenough for euer. Wee haue neither Scriptures, nor Sense of Scriptures, but onely from Rome.

I wil not here reporte the vnsauerie Senses, that they haue imagined of the Scriptures. One example, or twoo for a taste maye be sufficient. Pope Boniface saithe thus, De Maior. & Obedien. Vnam Sanctam. Psalm. 8. Antonen. in Summa, Par. 3. Titu. 22. Ca. 5. Hebraeo. 2. Ecce duo Gladij h [...]c: Beholde here are twoo Swerdes: That is to saye, The Pope hath the power bothe of the Spiritual Swerde, and of the Temporal.

An other saithe: Omnia subiecisti sub pedibus eius, id est, Papae: Pecora campi, id est, homines viuentes in terra: Pisces maris, id est, animas in Purgatorio: Volueres Coe­li, id est, animas Beatorum: These woordes S. Paule applieth onely vnto Christe, meaninge thereby, that God hath auanced him aboue al Powers, & Dominions, and that al thinges are subiecte vnto him. But the Romaine Sense is far other­wise: Thou haste made al thinges subiecte vnto him, that is to saye, to the Pope: The Cat­taile of the Fielde, that is to saye, Menne liuinge in the Earthe: The Fishes of the Sea, that is to saye, the Soules in Purgatories The Birdes of the Heauens, that is to saye, the Soules of the Blessed in Heauen. I leaue M. Hardinges owne peculiar Expositions, M. Hard. in his Former An­sweare. Artic. 2 M. Hardinge [...] Articulo. 2. & 10. Drinke ye al of this, that is to saye, as he geathereth in Conclusion, Drinke ye not al of this: It is the Substance, that is to saye, It is the Accidens.

By sutche prety Senses, I wil not saie, as S. Hierome saithe, De Euangelio Christi facitis hominis Euangelium, aut, quod peius est, Diaboli: Of the Gospel of Christe, ye make the Gospel of a Man: or, that is woorse, the Gospel of the Diuel: I wil not so saye: Hieronym. in Epis. ad Gala. Cap. 1 But thus maye I saye with the Prophete Esal, Ye make Lighte Darkenesse: and Darkenesse Lighte.

Yet muste wée néedes beléeue, vpon M. Hardinges Woorde, that the Scripture without the Sense of the Churche of Rome is no Scripture. Esai. 5. Hosius de ex­presso Verbo Dei. And therefore Ha­sius saithe, Si quis ha [...]eat interpretationem Ecclesiae Romanae de loco aliquo Scriptu­rae, etiamsi nec sciat, nec intelligat, an, & quomodo' cùm Scripturae verbis conueniat, ta­men habet ipsissimum Verbum Dei: If a man haue the exposition of the Churche of Rome, touchinge any place of the Scriptures, although he neither knowe, nor vnderstande, whether, and howe it agreeth with the woordes of the Scripture, yet he hath the verie Woorde of God. So saithe Rabbi Abraham Hispanus, Rabbi Abrahā. speakinge of the exposi­tions of the Rabbines, Licet videantur nobis verba nostra esse vera, & recta, nobis ta­men [Page 78] Veritas abijcienda est in terram: quia Veritas cum illis est: Not withstanding [...] our Expositions seeme to vs neuer so True, and righte, Scripture, Traditiō. yet muste wee throwe our. Truthe to the grounde: For the Truthe in deede is with them. Lyra likewise reporteth the com­mon opinion the Iewes had of their Rabines: Lyra. in Deute­ron. Cap. 17. Recipiendu [...]r est, quicquid hoc modo proponatur, etiamsi dicant Dextrant esse Sinistram: Wee muste needes receiue, what so euer they laye vnto vs, yea although they tel vs, The Righte hande is the Lefte.

Nowe, gentle Reader, that thou maiste the better see the constancie, and cer­tainetie of these Senses, and Expositions, whereunto M. Hardinge laboureth so earnestly to haue thee bounde, it maye please thee to consider these woordes of Ni­colaus Cusanus sometime Cardinal in the Churche of Rome: Nicolaus Cusa­nus De Author. Eccle. & Cōcil. Supra, & Con. Scripturam. Non est mirum, si Praxis Ecclesiae vno tempore interpre [...]atur Scripturam vno modo: & alio tempore, alio modo. Nam lntellectus currit cum Praxi. Intellectus enim, qui cum Praxi concur­rit, est Spiritus Viuificans. Sequuntur ergo Scripturae Ecclesiam, & non è conuerso: It is no marueile, though the Practise of the Churche expounde the Scriptures at one time one waye, and at an other time an other waie. For the vnderstandinge, or Sense of the Scriptures renneth with the practise: and that sense so agreeinge with the practise is the quickeninge Sprite. And therefore the Scriptures folowe the Churche: but contrariewise the Churche fo­loweth not the Scriptures. For sutche kindes of Expositions of the Scriptures, S. Hilarie saide sometime vnto the Arians, Fides ergo temporum magis est, quàm E­uangeliorum: The Faithe therefore foloweth the time, and not the Gospel.

This is the Sense of the Churche of Rome, whereby onely M. Hardinge wil­leth vs to measure, and to weighe the Woorde of God. But the Ancient Father Origen saithe, Origen. in Mat­thae. Homil. 25. Sicut omne Aurum, quodcunque fuerit extra Templum, non est San­ctificatum: sic omnis Sensus, qui fuerit extra Diuinam Scripturam, quamuis admirabi­lis videatur quibusdam, non est Sanctus: quia non continetur à Sensu Scripturae: As what so euer Golde is without the Temple, is not Sanctified: so what so euer Sense is without the Holy Scripture, although vnto some it seeme wounderful, yet is it not Holy, bicause it is not conteined in the Sense of the Scripture.

To conclude, where as M. Hardinge saithe, wee cannot vnderstande the Scri­ptures without Tradition, the ancient Father Irenaeus saithe, This is one special marke, whereby wee maye knowe an Heretique: These be his woordes: Haeretici cùm arguuntur ex Scripturis, Ire [...]a. Li. 3. ca. 2. in accusationem Scripturarum conuertuntur, quasi non rectè habeant, nec sint ex authoritate, & quòd variè fint dictae, & quòd ex his non possit inueniri Veritas ab illis, qui Traditionem nesciunt: Heretiques, when they be re­prooued by the Scriptures, they falle to the accusinge of the Scriptures, as though either they were not wel and perfite, or wanted authoritie, or were doubtefully vttered: or that they that knowe not the Tradition, were neuer hable by the Scriptures to finde out the Truthe.

M. Hardinge.

The comparison whiche ye make betweene your selues and Sophocles, gladly we admitte. Yet we acknowledge, that as in many respectes ye are like, so in some vnlike. Sophocles was a Poet, that is to saie, a fainer, and deuiser of thinges, that be not true, but fabulous: Ye also are fainers, and deuisers of nouelties, and folowers of Newe deuises, that be false. Sophocles was a Tragicall Poet: ye are Tragi­cal Diuines. A Tragedie setteth foorthe thouerthrowes of Kingdomes, Murder of Noble Personages, and other greate troubles, and endethe in woful lamentations. Your Gospel inuadeth Christes Heauenly Kingdome the Churche, it murdereth soules bought with a moste deere price, it causethe a hellishe gar­botle in mennes consciences, in the ende it bringethe to euerlastinge weepinge and gnasshinge of teethe. VVe take you not to be madde. VVould God ye were not woorse then madde. VVere ye madde, ye should be tied vp. Els were ye suffered to goo abroad, for feare folke would flie from you. And then should ye doo little hurte. Nowe whiles ye offer venemous kisses with sugered lippes, whiles ye couer woluishe crueltie vnder Lambes Skinnes, whiles ye hurte vnder pretēce of benefite, wounde vn­der colour of a medicine, begyle vnstable Soules with resemblance of Truth: neither stinte ye to woorke mischiefe, nor others can beware of you.

The B. of Sarisburie.

O M. Hardinge, Sophocles him selfe, if he were aliue, were not hable with al his eloquence to expresse the Tragical dealinges of your Companie. Your whole life, Marti. Ruceru [...]. Paul. Phagius. and Religion is nothinge els, but a Tragedie. You haue ripte vp the graues, and digged out the deade, and practised your crueltie vpon the poore innocente cackesses.

Your Pope Stephanus tooke vp Formosus his predecessours Body, chopte of his forefingers, Platina in Ste­phano. 6. Sabellicus, En­nea. 9. Lib. 2. Sabellicus, En­neade 9. Lib. 9. Beno Cardinalis cut of his heade, and threwe out the naked carkesse into Tiber.

Your Pope Iohn the twelfth cut of one of his Cardinales right hand, and an others nose.

Your Pope Vrbanus the sixth thrust fiue of his Cardinales aliue into sackes, and threwe them into the sea.

Your Pope Hildebrande poisoned sixe other Popes his predecessours, to make him selfe roome to the Holy Seate. They are so skilful there, in these feates, that noman can telle, neither what to flie, nor what to take: nor whom to doubte, nor whom to truste. They haue conueighed theire poison, I wil not saie into theire meates, or drinkes, for that is ouer grosse, & Common, but euen into theire Masse Bookes, into the Sacramente, into the Chalice. Camotensis one of theire owne side saithe wel of them: Heb 9. Agrippa. De Vae­ni. Scientiaru [...] Sine Sanguinis effusione nō ingrediuntur in Sancta Sanctorum: VVithout sheaddinge of Bloude they enter not into that Holy place, the Holy of Holies.

Howe be it, what spende I these woordes? It is not possible to saye al, that maie be said. They haue inflamed Warres: they haue raised the Subiectes against theire Princes: They haue armed the Sonne against the Father: They haue ouerthro­wen Ci [...]ties, and Countries: They haue deposed Kinges: They haue sette theire feete on Emperours neckes.

[Page 80] These maters, Madde. M. Hardinge, be Tragical in déede. And herein standeth thē whole practise, and Policie of your Churche of Rome.

Where you thinke your selfe a sober man, in that you can so easily calle vs madde, and woorse then madde, you maye remember, that this kinde of eloquence emōgst you is Anciente, and Catholique, and maie wel stande with your Religion. For so the False Prophete Semeias saide, Hierem. 29. 4. Regum. 19. that Hieremte the Prophete of God raued, and was starke madde. So the wicked saide vnto Iehu, of Elizeus the Pro­phete, What hath this madde Bedlem Body to doo with thee? Euen so they sayde of Christe, Marci. 3. Augu. in Psal. 6. That he was madde, and spake in furie, be knewe not what. S. Au­gustine saithe of S. Paule: Incidit in istorum sacrilegam dicacitatē: & ab eis, qui sanari nolunt, vocatur insanus: S. Paule is fallen into theire cursed raisinge: and of them, that wil neuer be made sober, is called a madde man. So saithe the Auncient Father Origen, of Celsus the wicked Heathen: Origen. contra Celsum. Lib. 4. Videamus igitur nos, qui iuxta hunc insanimus: Let vs therefore confider hereof, that in this mannes iudgemente are starke madde.

But, M. Hardinge, wherein are wee so madde? or what tokens of madnesse haue wee shewed? Can noman either speake the Truthe, or disclose your errours, without madnesse? But, I trowe, it is euen as S. Hierome saide sometime: Delirabat, Hiero. Ad Pam­machi. contra errores Iohan. Hierosolymit. Leo in Epiphan. Sermo. 5. Augu. in Psal. 33. scilicet, qui in ruo Regno contra tuam sententiam loquebatur: He raued, and was madde, no doubte, that within thy Dominion spake any thinge against thy minde. So saithe Leo, Insarris Magistris Veritas scandalum est, & Coecis Doctoribus fit caligo, quod lumen est: Vnto Frantique Maisters the Truthe is a sclaunder: and vnto Blinde Do­ctours the light is becomme Darkenesse.

So saithe S. Augustine of kinge Dauid: Insanire videbatur: Sed Regi Achis insa­nire videbatur, id est, stultis, & ignorantibus: Dauid seemed madde: But vnto Kinge Achis be seemed madde, that is to saye, vnto fooles, and idiotes.

As for our parte, Actor. 26. wée remember, what answeare S. Paule made vnto Festus in the like case: O good Festus, I am not madde: but I vtter vnto thee, the woordes of Truthe, Hiero. in Epita­phio Paulae. and Sobrietie. Therefore we may comforte our selues, as the Vertuous Gen­tlewoman Paula did, when she was likewise supposed to be madde: Nos stulti pro­pter Christum: Sed stultum Dei sapientius est hominibus: wee are iudged fooles (and madde folkes) for Christes sake: But the foolishenesse of God is wiser their menne.

But, Cyprian. ad Cornelium. M. Hardinge, S. Cyprian wil telle you thus: Haec est, Frater, Vera demen­tia, non cogitare, nec scire, quòd mendacia non diu fallant: noctem tam diu esse, quàm diu illuce scat dies: O my Brother, this is madnesse in deede, not to thinke, or knowe, that ( your) Lies cannot longe deceiue vs: and that it is Night no longer, but vntil the Daye springe. This in deede is very madnesse. And therefore Chrysostome saithe, Qui in manifestam foueam cadit, non negligens dicitur, sed insanus: Who so falleth into a pitte, that liethe wide open, is not saide to bee negligente, but starke madde.

M. Hardinge.

In our Fathers dayes before any change in Religion was thought vpon, Christen people lyued to­geather in perfite vnitie. Neither is any man now asha­med of the A­postles Creede. If accoumpt of belife had ben demaunded, none was ashamed of the common Apostles Crede. Euery one constantly confessed, I beleue in God the Father Almighty Maker of Heauen and Earthe, and in Iesus Christe, and so foorthe. But sithens Luther brought a Vntruthe It vvas the Olde. Newe Gospel into the worlde, wee haue sene greate diuersitie amōge men, not onely of Ceremonies, and Administra­tion of the Sacramentes, but also of the Manifeste Vntruthe: For vvee keepe al one Creede. Publike Confession of the Faithe. For as sundrie Rulers, Coun­tries, and common Weales receiued that newe Doctrine: so theire Preachers and Ministers haue sette foorthe sundrie Credes, and Confessions of theire Faithe.

S. Hilarie in his time complaininge there of, S Hilaries com­plaint of many Faithes. One God, one Faithe. Nowe a dayes there be (saithe he) so many Faithes, as there be willes: so many Doctrines, as there be maners: so many causes of blaspemies springe vp, as there be vices: whiles Faithes either are so written as wee list, or so vnderstanded as we list. And where as there is but one God, one Lorde, one Baptisme, and accordinge thereto one Faithe, wee steppe aside from that whiche is the onely Faithe: and whiles mo faithes be made, they beginne to come to that point, that there be no Faithe at al.

But the maner of the vtterance of your Faithe is strange to Christen eares, The maner of the vtterance of the defenders Faithe strange to Christē eares. who haue ben accusto­med to heare, Credo in Deum, Credo in Iesum Christum, Credo in Spiritum Sanctum: I be­leue in God, I beleue in Iesus Christe, I beleue in the Holy Ghoste. That other forme of woordes, whiche you vse, soundeth not so Christianlike. I beleue there is a God, I beleue that Iesus Christe is the Sonne of the Father, I b [...]liue that the Holy Ghoste is God. Although this forme of woordes do expresse a right Faithe, yet beinge sutche as maye be vttered by Deuils, and hathe Vntruthe. For the He­retiques saide, I be­leue in God, as vvel as did the Ca­tholiques. alwaies ben vttered by Heretikes theire Ministers: the Auncient and Holy Fathers haue liked better the Olde forme and maner, after whiche euery Christen man saithe, I beleue in God, I beleue in Iesus Christe, I beleue in the Holy Ghoste. For this importeth a signification of Faithe with hope and charitie: that other of Faithe onely, whiche the Deuils haue and tremble, Iacob. [...]. as S. Iames saithe: wherein as in many other thinges these Defenders re­semble them. S. Augustine in sundrie places putting a differēce betwen these two formes of wordes, v­pōs Iohn alleaging S. Paules wordes, To one that beleueth in him who iustifieth the wicked, his Faithe is imputed to rightuousnesse, demaōdeth, what is it to beleue in him? It is by his answeare, Credendo amare, credendo diligere, credendo in eum ire, & eius membris incorporari: With be­leuinge to loue him, with beleuinge to goe into him, and to be incorporate in his members, that is, to be made a member of his Body.

As this Defender procedeth in declaringe the belefe of his Newe Englishe Churche, he grateth mutche vppon the Article of Christes Ascension, The Article of Christes ascensiō mutche grated vpon [...]y the de­fenders to euil purpose. In Iohan. Tract. 30. Oportet for Potest. as the maner is of al Zwinglians to do. For theire minde geueth them, thereby they shal be able to bringe at leste many of the simpler sorte to their Sa­cramentarie Heresie, and to thinke, that the Body of Christe, wherein he ascended into Heauen, and suteth at the right hande of the Father, is so absent frō Earthe, as it may not be beleued to be here pre­sent in the Sacrament of the Aulter. Thereto he alleagethe S. Augustine, makinge him to saye, that Christes Body wherein he rose againe, must nedes be stil in one place. In which treatise that Holy Fa­ther hathe not the worde, Vntruthe. For S. Au­gustines vvoorde is, Oportet. S. Augustine knevve no sutche Body in the Sa­cramente. Oportet, that is, must nedes, as this Defender alleageth, but this worde, Potest, that is, maye, as the bookes haue that be not corrupted by the mainteiners of that Heresie. And where as he saithe, Ad Dardanum, alleaged by this defender, though Christe hathe geuen Maiestie vnto his Body yet he hathe not taken awaye from it the Nature of a Body: this is not to be stretched to Christes Body in the Sacrament, where, it is not after condition of Nature, but by the al­mightie power of his worde. And although he hathe not taken awaye from his Body the Nature of a very Body, yet may it please him to do with his Body, being God nolesse then man, that, whiche is be­sides and aboue the Nature of a Body. Matthae. 26. So it pleased him to do, when he said, This is my Body. And so it [Page 83] pleaseth him it be done, Vūtruthe. There is neither sutche Institution, nor sutche commasidemēt. whesoeuer the same Body is offered in the daily sacrifice of the Churche accor­ding to his cōmandement and institution. Diuersitie of creedes That Vigilius saithe, Contra Eutychē Lib. 1. Hovve Christe hathe lefte to be novv in Earthe. 1. Ioan. 1. Christe hathe lefte vs touching his Hu­maine Nature, but hathe not left vs as touching his Diuine Nature: it is to be vnderstāded of his visible shape, in whiche he shewed his Humaine Nature, whē he walked here on Earthe, when he was so cō ­uersant with men sensibly, that as S. Iohn writethe they heard him with theire eares, they saw him with theire eies, they behelde him, and touched him withe theire handes. As touchinge his Humaine Nature in this sensible wise, Expositionis in Epist. Iohan. Tract. 10. Christe hathe left vs, after whiche S. Augustine saithe, Iam non inuenis Christum loqui in Terra: Nowe thou findest not Christe to speake on the Earthe. This maner of Christes Humaine Nature beinge taken from vs withstandeth not, but that we may haue the substance of his natural Body and Bloud present in the blessed Sacrament in a mysterie by the Almighty power of his word: whiche Faithe these defenders trauatle to impugne. And (as God would) the Penneman of this Apologie bringeth vn wares, as it semethe, for confirmation of his Sacramentarie Doctrine, that out of [...]ulgētius, Ad Thrasymun­dum Regem. whiche ouerthroweth al that he wēt about to builde against the real presence. That Father, as he is by him alleaged, saithe, Christum, cùm absit à nobis per Formā Serui, tamen semper esse nobiscum per Formā Dei: That whereas Christe is absent from vs accordinge to the Forme of a seruant, yet he is euer present with vs accordinge to the Forme of God. VVhereby he mea­neth, that Christe is nomore here amonge men, as he was before his deathe, in Forme and shape of man, in sutche wise as we see men liue on the Earthe. VVhiche woordes bicause they seme to dasshe theire whole purpose, Vntruthe. For Forme and Sub­stance are bothe one. the Prelates of this newe Englishe Churche haue altered the sense of them, by shifting in this worde (Manhed) in stede of (the Forme or shape of a seruant) whiche the Latine hathe, and this worde (Godhed) in stede of (the Forme of God).

The B. of Sarisburie.

I marueile, M. Hardinge, that ye can publishe so manifeste Vntruthe without blusshinge. Ye saie, that before these fewe late yeeres, there was but one Fourme of Faithe throughout the world. Yet beinge learned, & hauinge trauailed through the Auncient Writers, you muste néedes haue séene the Apostles Creede: the Ni­c [...]ne Créede: S. Basiles Créede: Damasus Créede: S. Hieromes Créede: S. Cypriās. or Rufines Créede: Gregories Créede: the Créede called, Quicun (que) vult, written, as some thinke, by Athanasius, as some others, by Eusebius Vercellensis: the Créede conteined in the Hymne called, Te Deum, whether it were written by S. Augustine, or by S. Ambrose: euery of these vnder seueral, and sundrie fourmes. You knowe, that in diuers of the Oldest Councelles, as occasion was offered, so somewhat was either added to the Creede, or diminished, or altered: as it may ap­peare by Eusebius, Socrates, Theodoretus, Sozomenus, Euagrius, Nicephorus, and others. You know, that S. Augustine vnto Laurentius, S. Hierome vnto Cy­rilius, S. Ambrose vnto the Emperour Gratianus, and others moe in declaration of the Christian Faithe, haue not alwaies vsed one precise fourme of Woordes: and that the Emperoure Constantine maketh open Protestation of his Faithe, as it is recorded in your Countrefeite Donation, in Sense, & Substance agréeing with al others, that were Catholique: but in Woordes, far disagréeinge from al others, and peculiar onely to him selfe. To be shorte, you knowe, that betwéene your Masse Créede, & the peoples Common Créede, as touching the Woordes, there was greate difference. It were too longe, to rehearse al. Neither was it necessarie, to say so mutche, sauinge onely to shewe the manifeste vanitie of your talke. To expresse one Substance of Faithe in sundrie Fourmes of Woordes, I neuer heard, it was forbidden, sauinge onely nowe at the laste by this late Decrée of M. Hardinge.

Where you saie, the whole people before these fewe late yéeres had one Faithe, ye shoulde rather haue saide, they were al taught by you in a straunge vnknowen Tongue, to pronounce, as they could, a strange vnknowē Fourme of Faithe. For, God knowethe, they vnderstoode not one woorde, what they saide, nor scarcely one Article of theire Beléeue. S. Hilarie saithe, of the people deceiued by the Arians, as [Page 84] these haue benne by you, To beleue In God. Credunt, quod non credunt: Intelligunt, quod non intelligunt: They Beleeue that, Hilari. ad Con­stantium Impe­ratore [...]. Coelius Rhodi­gin Antiquitat. Lib 3. Cap. 32. August. De cap. [...] contra Dona [...]ist. Lib 3. Cap 14. whiche thei Beleeue not: they Vnderstande that, whiche they Vnderstand not. Cardinal Ascanius had a Popiniay, that was taught to say distinctly al the Articles of the Creede, from the beginninge to the ende. Yet, I trowe, ye wil not say, the same Popiniay Beléeued in God, or vnderstoode the Christian Faithe. For Faithe is in the Harte, not in the Tonge. S. Augustine saithe, Fieri potest, vt integra quis teneat Verba Symboli, & tamen non rectè credat: It is possible, that a man may pronounce the whole woordes of the Creede: and yet not haue the right Faithe.

In deede S. Hilarie, of whom ye speake, woorthily reproued the Arian He reti­ques, for that they had altered the whole Faithe of Christe, not onely in Woor [...]es, but also in Substance. But wee hauinge published sundrie Confessions of our Re­ligion, as the Multitudes of your Abuses, and Errours offered occasiō, and that in sundrie Countries, and Kingdomes, in sutche distance of places, and diuersitie of Speaches, yet notwithstanding in the Substance, & groundes of the Truthe haue euermore ioined togeather, and neuer altered.

Where wee saie, Wée beleeue, there is one God, M. Hardinge answeareth, He cannot wel allow this Fourme of Speache. Wee should rather haue said, saithe he, wee beléeue In God. Were not this Controller so importune, sutche simple petite quarcelles should not be answeared. I could neuer haue thought, it had ben so great a sinne, to Beleeue, that God is God Verily, M Hardinge, if euery of y [...]ur Popes, and Cardinalles had beléeued so mutche, I trow, Cornelius the Bishop of Bito [...]to in your late Councel at Tridente woulde not so bitterly, and in so open sorte haue cried out of them, Cornelius Biton­tinus in Concil. Trident. Vtinam non à Fide ad Infidelitatē, à Deo ad Epicurum, velut prorsus vnanimes declinassent, dicentes in corde Impio, & ore impudico, Non est Deus: Would God they were not gonne, as it were with one consent, from the Faithe to Infidelitie, from God to Epicure, saieing with wicked h [...]rte, and shamelesse mouthe, There is no God.

If no Catholique Writer had euer vsed this selfe same Fourme of speache be­fore, then might M. Hardinges quarrel seeme to haue some reasonable ground. But bothe S. Paule, and also many other Catholique Fathers haue often vsed it. S. Paule saithe, Hebrae. 11. Accedentem ad Deum oportet Credere, Deum esse: He that commeth to God, must beleeue, that there is a God: And Hermes, S Paules Scholar, commonly called Pastor Nuntius, Pastor Nuntius. Origen. [...], in prooemio. Hilar. De [...]rini­tat. Lib. 10. Symbolum Ca­roli Magni. Ante omnia crede Vnum Deum esse, qui condidit omnia: Be­fore al other thinges beleeue, that there is One God, that hathe made al. Origen saithe, Primùm credendus est Deus, qui omnia creauit: Firste w [...]e must beleeue, there is a God, that hathe created al thinges. S. Hilarie saithe, In absoluto nobis, & facilis est Acterni­tas, Iesum Christum à mortuis suscitatum Credere: Our euerlastinge life is ready, and casi, to beleeue, that Iesus Christe is risen againe from the deade: Likewise Charles the Greate in the Créede published in his name, Praedicandum est omnibus, vt credant, Patrem, Fi­lium, & Spiritum Sanctum Vnum esse Deum Omnipotentem: The Gospel must be preached vnto al, to the ende they may knowe, that the Father, the Sonne, and the Holy Ghoste is one God Almighty. To be shorte, euen in our late Fathers daies, this was counted a Catholique Fourme of Faithe, and was commonly taught in al Scholes, Vnum Crede Deum: Beleeue, that there is One God. If this were then wel spoken, and vni­uersally vsed, euen in the Churche of Rome, without rebuke, I truste, M Hardinge of his Courtesie wil nomore blame vs for speakinge wel. As for these Phrases ( I beleeue In God, I beleeue In Christe) although in deede they be better, & more effectual, & carrie more force then the other, Exodi. 14. Exodt. 19. Basilius de Spir. Sanct. cap. 14. [...]. yet are they not, neither so peculiare, and special to God alone, nor so precisely vsed, as M. Hardinge imagineth. For it is written in the E [...]odus, as it is noted by the skilful in the Hebrewe tongue, Populus credidit In Deum, & In Mosen: The people beleeued In God, and In Moses: And God him selfe saide vnto Moses, as it is likewise noted in y ^e Hebrewe: Descendam, vt populus In te credat: I wil goe downe, that the people mai [...] beleeue In thee. S. Basile saithe, Baptizati sunt In Mosen, & crediderunt In illum: They were Baptized In Moses, and beleeued In him. [Page 85] And Hosius saithe, To beleue In God. Christes Ascension Quid si In Sanctos quo (que) rectè credi docet Paulus? Hosius in Con­fessi. Petricoui­en. Ca. 58. Socrates Li. 1. Ca. 25. Paschasi. L. 1. de Spiritu Sancto. What if Paule teache vs, that wee may also wel beleeue In Sainctes? And they of M. Hardinges side haue euermore wel liked this Fourme of Speache, Credo in Sanctam Ecclesiam: I be­leeue In the Holy Churche. Wherein also perhappes they wil allege these woordes of Socrates, and of some others, Credo In vnam Catholicam Ecclesiam: I beleeue In one Catholique Churche. Notwithstandinge beside S. Augustine, and others, Pas­chasius saithe, Credimus Ecclesiam, quasi Regenerationis Martem: non Credimus In Ecclesiam, quasi Regenerationis Authorem. Recede ergo ab hac persuasione blasphemiae. Non enim licet, nec In Angelum Credere: Wee beleeue the Holy Churche, as the Mo­ther of Regeneration: But wee beleeue not In the Churche, as the Authour of Regene­ration. Leaue therefore this persuasion of Blasphemie. For it is not lauful to beleeue, no not In an Angel. Augustin. in Iohan. tracta. 29. Likewise S. Augustine saithe, Credimus Paulo, non credimus In Paulum: Credimus Petro, non credimus In Petrum: Wee beleeue Paule, but we beleeue not In Paule: Wee beleeue Peter, but wee beleeue not In Peter.

Hereby wée maie sée, that whether wée saie, Wee beleeue that God is God, or, we beleeue In God, both these phrases are vsed of the godly, and are therfore both good, & Catholique. Yf M. Hardinge finde any wante, or imperfection in our woordes, let him supplie it with good fauoure: so he condemne not either S. Paule, or Hermes, or Origen, or Hilarie, or Charles the Greate, or other Catholique, and godly writers, as wel Gréekes, as Latines: who, as I haue shewed, haue vsed the like. Certainely the General Confession of al our people, and of our whole Churche, is this, VVee beleeue In God: VVee beleeue In Christe: VVee beleeue In the Holy Ghoste.

But M. Hardinge saithe, wée grate ouer busily vpon the Article of Christes Ascension into Heauen. What then? Should wée haue leafte it out? Verily that would haue benne some good countenance to your cause▪ An [...] therefore when Pope Nicolas would haue brought vs your newe Article of Trasubstantiation into the Crede, he should firste haue vtterly remoued this whole Article of Christes Ascen­sion. For these twoo Articles maie not wel stande togeather by any construction in one Crede. As for vs, wée haue saide nothinge herein, but that hath often ben saide, and auouched by the Holy Learned Fathers. Damasus the Bishoppe of Rome, in his Creede grateth hereon as mutche, as wée. His woordes be these: Deuicto mortis imperio, Symbolum Da­masi, apud Hie­rony. To. 4. cum ea Carne, in qua natus, & passus, & mortuus fuerat, & re­surrexit, Ascendit ad Patrem, sedet (que) ad Dextram eius in Gloria: Hauinge ouercome the empiere of deathe, with the same fleashe, wherein he was borne, and suffred, and died, and rose againe, he Ascended vnto the Father, and sitteth at his Right hande in Glorie. Whiche woordes S. Hierome in larger manner expoundeth thus: Ascendit ad Coelū, Sedet ad Dextram Dei Patris, Hierony. in ex­plicatione Sym­boli, To. 4. manente ea Natura Carnis, in qua natus, & passus est, & in qua Re­surrexit. Non enim exinanita est Humanitatis Substantia, sed glorificata: Christe Ascen­ded into Heauen, and sitteth at the Right hande of the Father, the same Nature of Fleash, wherein he was borne and suffred, and rose againe, remaininge stil. For the Substance of his Humaine Nature was not donne away, but glorified. Howe be it, gentle Reader, for thy better satisfaction herein, In the sixthe Article. I muste referre thée ouer to my Former Replie to M. Hardinge.

Here foloweth a piteous outcrie, that wée haue shamefully corrupted S. Au­gustines woordes, shiftinge in, Oporter, in steede of, Potest. What newe fansie is suddainely fallen into M. Hardinges heade, I cannot tel. S. Augustines woordes, as they be alleged by Gratian, De Consecra. Dis. 2. Prima. Oportet. Potest. are these: Corpus, in quo Resurrexit, in Vno loco esse Oportet: The Body, wherein Christe rose againe, muste needes be in One place. Here is not, Oportet, in stéede of, Potest, as M. Hardinge saithe: but, Oportet, as it should be, for, Oportet. If there haue benne any corruption wrought herein, it hath benne wrought by Gratian, welneare foure hundred yeres agoe, and not by [Page 86] vs. Christes Body in one place. Yet is Gratian one of the highest Doctours of M. Hardinges side. And wil M. Hardinge make vs beléeue, that his owne Catholique Doctours would be so bolde, to corrupte S. Augustine?

As for this Verbe, Oportet, if it were wanting in the place alleged, yet might it wel, and easily be supplied of other places. S. Peter saithe, Oportet illum coelos capere vs (que) ad tempora restitutionis omnium: Actor. 3. Cyrill. in Iohan. Li. 11. Ca. 3. Augustin. con­tra Faustem li. 20. Ca. 11. Augustin. ad Dardan. Epist. 57. The Heauens Must conteine, or hold him, vntil the time, that al thinges be restored. So saithe Cyrillus, Christus non po­terat cum Apostolis versari in Carne, postquàm Ascendisset ad Patrem: Christe could not be conuersante with his Apostles in the Fleash, after he had Ascended vnto the Father. Like­wise saithe S. Augustine, Christus secundū Praesentiā Corporalē in Sole, in Luna, & in Cruce simul esse non potuit: Christe, according to the Presence of his Body, could not be in the Some, in the Moone, and on the Crosse at one time. And againe, Ne dubites, Christum esse in aliquo loco Coeli, propter Veri Corporis modum: Doubt not, but Christ is in some One Place of Heauen, bicause of the measure or fourm of a very Body. Therefore the Olde Learned Father Origen saithe, Non est Homo, qui est vbicun (que) duo vel tres in eius nomine fuerint congregati: Origen. in Mat­thae. tracta. 32. neque Homo nobiscum est omnibus diebus vsque ad consū ­mationē saeculi: neque congregatis vbique fidelibus Homo est praesens: sed virtus Diuina, quae erat in Christo: It is not Christe, as being Man, that is where so euer twoo or three be geathered together in his name: neither Christe, as being Man, is with vs al daies vntil the worldes end: nor Christ, as being Man, is Present with the Faithful euery where geathered to­gether: but that Diuine power ( or Nature) that was in Christe. And for that cause S. Augustine saithe, Augustin. in Psalm. 46. Videte Ascendentem: Credite in Absentem: Sperate Venientem: Sed tamen per Mis [...]ricordiam occultam etiam sentite Praesentem: See you Christe Ascen­ding into Heauen: Beleeue in him being Absent: Trust in Christe, that is to come: And yet by his secrete Mercie feele him Present. Thus, M. Hardinge, thus haue the Olde Catho­lique Learned Fathers vsed tograte, as ye terme it, vpon the Article of Christes Ascension.

You saie, S. Augustine in his Epistle to Dardanus, spake not of Christes Body, as it is now Present in the Sacrament. No marueile. For S. Augustine neuer vnderstood any sutch kinde of Presence. And who taught you, M. Hardinge, that Christe hath sutche change of diuers Bodies: of one manner in the Sacrament, and of an other manner in Heauen? Christes Blessed Body, when it was borne of the Virgine, when it died, when it rose againe, when it Ascended into Heauen, was one, and vniforme. How became it afterward so diuerse, and so vnlike it selfe? If either Christe, or the Apostles, or the Anciente Fathers haue thus taught you, why are they not alleged? If they haue not thus taught you, how came you by this knowledge? Or if ye saie, ye know, that they knewe not, who wil beléeue you?

Ye tel vs, that the Body of Christe in Heauen hath the whole Stature, and Fourme, and Proportion of a Man. This is true: It is the Doctrine of the Apo­stles, and of the Anciente Doctours of the Churche. But ye tel vs farther of your selfe, that the Body of Christe in the Sacrament is vtterly voyde of al manner ei­ther Stature, or Fourme, or Proportion: that is to saie, is neither longe, nor short: nor high, nor low: nor thicke, nor thinne: &, being as you say, a very Natural Body, yet hath neither likenesse, nor shape of a Body. This is your Doctrine, M. Har­dinge: and the more vnlikely to be true, the more likely to be yours.

Sutche fantastical imaginations the Arian Heretiques sometime had of the Godhed of Christe. Athanas. contra Arianos Serma­ne 3. For thus they wrote thereof, as saithe Athanasius: Creatura est: sed non vt vlla ex rebus creatis: Opus est: sed non vt vllum ex operibus: Res condita est: sed non vt vlla ex rebus conditis: It is a Creature: but not as any other of thinges created: It is a thinge wrought: but not as any other thinge, that euer was wrought: &c.

But what saith Athanasius him selfe to al these fantasies? his answeare is this: Iam videtis vafritiem, & dolos istius Haereseos: quae non ignara, quàm amarulenta sit ista [Page 88] sua malitia, Fourme and Sub­stance. fotos quaerit, & [...]nocinium sibi [...] ex verborum disertitudine: Nowe ye see the crookednesse, and [...]subtletie of this Haresae: whiche knowinge her owne malice howe [...] it is, borowith some he wa [...] and colo [...]e by sleight of woordes.

This Flauianus repreneth the Heretique Eutyches, Epistola Flaui­ani ad Leon. in­ter Leon. Episto­las. Adiecit & aliam [...] Corpus Domini quod en Maria factum est, non esse nostrae Substantiae; He added [...] in other wickednesse, saieinge, that the Body of Christe, that was borne of Mary, is not nowe of our Substance.

[...] the ma [...]er thus, Caro Christi ipsa est, per Essentiam: non ipsa per Gloria [...]: Leo. De Resur­rect. Domini. Sermo. 1. The Fleash of Christe in Substance is nowe the same, it was before: but [...] Glorie it is not the same.

Noman hereof writeth either more plainely, or more directely, then S. Augustine. Augustin. ad Dardanum epiststol. 57. His woordes be these, Christus sic Venturus est, quemadmodum ire vi­sus est in Ceolum, id est, in eadem Carnis Forma, atque Substantia: Cui profectò. Im­mortalitatem dedit, Na [...]turam non abstulit. Secundum hanc Formam non est putandus vbique diffusus. Cauendum est enim, ne ita Diuinitatem astruamus Hominis, vt Verita­tem Corporis auferamus: Christe shal come againe ( to Iudge) euen as he was seene go­inge into Heauen, that is to saie, in the selfe same Fourme, and Substance of his Fleash: Vnto whiche Fleash vndoubtedly he hathe geuen Immortalitie: but he hathe not taken from it the Nature of Fleashe. For wee muste take heede, wee doo not so maineteine the Godhead of Christes Humanitie, that we denie the Truthe of his Body.

And where ye fantasie, that the Body of Christe in the Sacramente hathe in it selfe neither Fourme, nor Proportion, nor Limitation of place, nor Distin­ction of partes, Augustin. in ead. epist. ad Dardanum. S. Augustine telleth you, Spatia locorum tolle Corporibus, & nus­quam erunt: & quia nusquam erunt, nec erunt. Tolle ipsa Corpota qualitatibus Corporū, non erit, vbi sint: & ideo necesse est, vt non sint: Take awaye from Bodyes Limitation of place, and the Bodyes wil be no where: and bicause they be nowhere, they wil be no­thing. Take awaye from Bodyes the qualities of Bodyes, there wil be no place for them to be in: and therefore the same Bodies muste needes be no Bodies at al. Hereof wée maye conclude, that the Body of Christe, whiche you haue imagined to be conteined Grossely, and Carnally in the Sacramente, for as mutche as, by your owne Con­fession, it hathe neither Qualitie, nor Quantitie, nor Fourme, nor Place, nor Proportion of Body, therefore, by S. Augustines Doctrine, it is no Body.

Here it is a worlde to sée, what prety sporte M. Hardinge maketh him selfe with the poore Penneman of this Apologie. As God woulde, the Simple Body vnwares alleged Fulgentius cleane againste him selfe. For the woordes of Fulgentius be these: Christus, cùm Absit à nobis per Formam Serui, tamen semper est nobiscum per Formam Dei: Whereas Christe is Absent from vs by the Fourme of a Seruaunte, yet is he euermore Present with vs by the Fourme of God. Whereby, saithe M. Hardinges Commentarie, he meaneth, that Christe is nomore here emonge vs, in Fourme, and Shape of Man, in sutche wise, as wée sée menne liue in the Earthe. And these woordes (saithe he) dasshe theire whole purpose: and therefore the Prelates of this newe Englishe Churche, haue altered the sense of them, by shiftinge in this woorde ( Man­hoode) insteede of ( the Fourme of a Seruaunt): and this woorde ( Godhead) in steede of ( the Fourme of God).

I beséeche thée, Gentle Reader, spare me a litle thine indifferent eare, leaste in these mysty cloudes of M. Hardinges Distinctions, thou happen to wander, and loose thy way. Al this great adoo riseth onely of some notable difference, that is fansied to be bitwéene these twoo woordes. Fourme, and, Substance. For M. Har­dinge would faine haue thée beléeue, that y ^e Substance of Christes Body is in many places: but the Fourme of the same Body can be onely in one place, & not in many.

If I should demaund M. Hardinge this question by the way, wherfore Christes Body in Fourme maye not as wel be in many places togeather, as the same in Substance: or how he knoweth it: or what Doctour, or Father euer taught it: or [Page 88] how wée may be wel assured of it: perhappes he would take a daie, to consider it better. For thus a man might put him in minde of the groundes of his Religion: Sir, ye know, God is Omnipotent, and his power Infinite. Ye maie not make him thral, & subiect to your senses: That were Natural Reason that were Infidelitie. Christe is as wel [...]able to dispose of the Fourme of his Body, as of the substance: and can as wel present the one in many places, as the other. How be it, thus mutche onely by the way.

But now, what i [...] al this great imagined Difference be no Difference▪ What if these two woordes, Fourme, and Substance, as they be vsed by Fulgentius, be al one? What then wil M. Hardinge doo with his prety Glose?

Verily Athanalius saithe thus: Athanas. De Definitionib. Na [...]ura, Essentia. Genus, Forma Vnū sunt: Na­ture, Substance, Kinde and Fourme be al One thing. Leo saithe, Leo episio. 97. Cap. 3. Quid est, In Forma Dei: in Natura Dei: What is it, To be in the Fourme of God? He answeareth, It is, To be in the Nature of God. Chrysostome saith, Chrysostom. ad Philippen. Homi. 6. Forma Dei, Natura Dei est: The Fourme of God, is y [...] Nature of God. S. Augustine saithe, Augustian. De Tempor. Sermo. 177. De Ascet­sio. Sermo. 4. Secūdum Formam Dei Christus ipse de se loqui­tur▪ Ego & Pater Vnum sumus: As concerning the Former of God, Christe him selfe saithe of him selfe, I and my Father are bothe One. Augustin. epist. 177. Likewise againe he saithe, Vna est Forma, quia vna est Diuinitas: The Fourme is one, bicause the Godhed is One.

In like sorte of the Fourme of a Seruant, Leo. epi [...]. 97. Cap. 3. Leo saithe, Quaero quid sit Formam Serui accipere? Sine dubio Perfectionem Naturae, & Conditionis Humanae: What is it, To take the Fourme of a Seruant? He answeareth, Doubtlesse it is, To take the perfection of Na­ture, and state of man. Chrysostom. ad Philippen. Ho­mi. 6. Chrysostome saithe, Forma Serui Omnino est Natura Serui: The Fourme of a Seruant verily is the Nature of a Seruant. Augustin. in Iohan. tract. 40. S. Augustine saithe, Quando de Forma Serui in Christo cogitas, Humanam Effigiem cogita, si est in te Fides: Whe [...] thou thinkest of the Fourme of a Seruant in Christ, thinke of the Shape of a man, if there be any Faithe in thee. Augustin. De Essentia Diui­nitatis. Againe, Christum secundum Humanitatem, Visibilem, Corporeum, Lo­calem, at (que) omnia membra Humana veraciter habentem credere conuenit, & confiteri: VVee must beleue, and confesse, that Christ according to his Humanitie, is Visible, hath the Substance and Properties of a Body, is conteined in Place, and verily hath al the members, and the whole Proportion of a man. To leaue al others, Haimo, in epist. ad Philip. ca. 2. Haimo saithe, Forman Serui acce­pit, id est, in Veritate Hominem accepit: He tooke the Fourme of a Seruant, that is to saye, In very Truthe he tooke Man.

Ye sée, M. Hardinge, by these Testimonies of the Ancient Learned Fathers, farre contrarie to your vaine Distinction, y ^• the Fourme of God is nothing els, but God: & the Fourme of Man is nothing els, but Man. Wherfore then haue you thus diuised vs this new Difference? Wherfore saie you of your owne head, y ^• Fourme, & Substance be so contrarie, seing the Catholique Fathers saie, they be both One? Or wherefore be you so busy, to trouble the Penneman without cause? Certainely S. Augustine ioineth Fourme and Substance both togeather, Augustin. ad Dardan. epist. 57. & by the one expoun­deth the other: In eadem Forma, at (que) Substantia: In the same Fourme, and Substance: and againe expoundeth the same Fourme, Veritatem Corporis: The Truthe of a Body.

By these it is plaine, that when Fulgentius saith, y ^e Fourme of God, he mea­neth therby the Substance, the Nature, & the Diuinitie of God: And when he saith, the Fourme of a Seruant, he meaneth likewise, the Nature▪ the Substance, the Truthe, the Perfection, & the Very Manhoode of a Man. And the whole drifte of his discourse is this, that Christe being bothe God, and Man, by the Nature, and Substance of his Godhed is euerywhere: but by the Nature, and Substance of his Manhoode, & Truth of his Body, is onely in one place, and not in moe: agreing therein with these woordes of S. Augustine before rehearsed, De conse. dist 2. Prima. Corpus, in quo Resur­rexit, in vno Loco esse Oportet: The Body, wherin he rose againe, must nedes be in oue Place.

Here are wée terribly charged with guileful dealing, with a speciall note al­so in the Margine, Fulgentius fo why falsified. Wée haue shifted in this woorde, Man­hed, [Page 89] in stéede of, Fourme of Man, ctc. the Fourme of a Seruante: and this woorde Godhed, in stéede of, the Fourme of God. And therefore both the Penneman, and the Prelates of our Newe Cleregie must néedes be brought foorth before the barre.

I wil not here tel you, M. Hardinge, how lewdely ye haue demeaned your selfe towardes her, whom it liketh you so often, and so scornefully to cal the Lady Interpreter: a Lady, I wil not saie, of what Learning, vertue, and grauitie: but certainly, as far from al vnwoomanly Presumption, wh [...]rwith ye so rudely touch her, as you are from al manly modestie: and for ought, that maie appeare by these toies, and trifles, ye haue sent vs ouer, as ful of wisedome, as you of folie. I be­séeche you, cal your woordes againe to minde, if you can without blushing: So roughly to handle so softe a Creature. This Phrase of speeche your very frendes haue mutche misliked, and, as it is in déede, so in plaine woordes they cal it Ruf­fianrie, a vertue, although mutche agreable to your Profession, yet vnméete for a man, either of learning, or of sober wisedome. But this faulte, [...]mong many others, as I haue saide, I wil dissemble. Although your whole Booke be vtterly voide of Diuinitie, yet at the least some sense of Humanitie had benne commendable.

But the Prelates of this Newe Cleregie (you saie) haue fouly falsified both y ^e woordes, & the sense of Fulgentius. And wherin, M. Harding? Forsooth in stéede of these woordes, The Fourme of Man, &, The Fourme of God, for y ^• better vnder­standing of y ^e vnlearned, they haue vsed these woordes, as more commonly knowen, Godhed, and Manhed. If this be so faulte, wherefore then is the Olde Father, Vigilius, Li. [...]. Contra Eu [...]ych [...] ­tem. & Martyr Vigilius suffered thus to saie, Dei Filius secundum Humanitatem suam recessit à nobis; Secundum Diuinitatem suam semper est nobiscum: The Sonne of God according to his Manhed is departed from vs: according to his Godhed is euer with vs? Or againe, Christus est vbi (que) secundum Naturam Diuinitatis suae: & loco continetur secundum Naturam Humanitatis suae: Christe is in al places according to the Nature of his Godhed: and is conteined in One place, according to the Nature of his Manhed.

Wherefore dooth Cyrillus saie, Secundum Carnem Solam abiturus Crat: Adest autem semper virtue Deitatis: Cyrill. in Iohan. li. 9. ca. 21. Gregor. De Pas­cha. Homi. 30. According to the Fleash onely he woulde departe: But by y ^• power of his Godhed he is euer present. Wherfore doth Gregorie saie. Verbum Incarna­tum Manet, & Recedit: Manes Diuinitace, Recedit Corpore: The woord Incarnate bothe abideth with vs, and departeth from vs. It abideth with vs by the Godhed: It departeth from vs by the Body (or Manhed?) Wherefore dooth S. Augustine saie, Ibat per id, quod Homo erat: Manebat per id, Augustin. in Io­han. tracta. 78. quod Deus erat. Ibat per id, quod Vno Loco erat: Manebat per id, quod vbi (que) erat: Christ departed by that he was Man: and aboade by that he was God. He departed by that, that was in One Place: He aboad by that, that is in al Places.

If ye wil yet stand in doubte, what these Holy Fathers meante by y ^• Manhed of Christe, that departed from vs, let S. Augustine open bothe his owne, and their meaninges. Thus he writeth in expresse & plaine woordes touching the same: Secundum Carnem, Augustin. in Io­han. tracta. 50. quam Verbum assumpsit: secundum id, quòd de Virgine natus est: Secundum id, quòd à Iudaeis prehensus est: quòd ligno confixus: quòd de Cruce deposi­tus: quod linteis inuolutus: quòd in sepulchro conditus: quòd in Resurrectione manife­status, me non semper habebitis vobiscum: According to the Fleash, that the Woorde re­ceiued: according to that, he was borne of the Virgine: according to that, he was taken of the Iewes: According to that, he was nailed to the Tree, taken downe from the Crosse, lapte in a sheete, laide in the graue, and was declared in his Resurrection ( these woordes are true) Ye shal not haue me alwaies with you. Augustin. in Sermo. in feri. 2. Paschat. Likewise againe he saithe, Dominus noster absen­tauit se Corpore ab omni Ecclesia, & Ascendit in Coelum: Our Lord, as touching his Bo­dy, Absented him selfe from his whole Churche, and Ascended into Heauen.

To be short, if it be so hainous an errour in this case to vse these woordes, Godhed, and Manhed, Fulgentius ad Regem Thra [...]mun Li. 2. wherefore is not Fulgentius him selfe reproued for so often vsing the same? These be his woordes, Secundum Humanitatem suam, Lo­caliter [Page 90] erat in Terra: The Holy Ghoste is God. Secundum Diuinitatem, & Coelum impleuit, & Terram. Vera Hu­manitas Christi Localis es: Vera Diuinitas semper immensa est. Caro Christi abs (que) dubi­tatione Localis est: Diuinitas tamen eius vbique semper est. Permansit in Christo Immen­sa Diuinitas: Suscepta est ab eo Localis Humanitas. Quomodò Ascendit in Coelum, nisi quia Localis, & Verus est Homo? Quomodò adest Fidelibus, nifi quia idem Immensus, & Verus est Deus? Christe according to his Manhoode, was placed in Earthe: but accor­ding to his Godhed he filled bothe Heauen, and Earthe. The Manhoode of Christe is con­teined in Place: The Godhed of Christe is Infinite, and in al places. The Pleash of Christe is doubtelesse in (One) place: The Godhead of Christe is for euer in euery place. There re­mained stil in Christe the Infinite Godhed: There was receiued of him a Local Manhoode. How Ascended he i [...]to Heauen, sauing that he is very Man conteined in Place? How is he present with the Faithful, sauing that he is Infinite, and True God? Last of al he saithe, Vnus idem (que) Christus, Secundum Humanam Substantiam, aberat Coelo, cùm esset in Terra: & dereliquit Terram, cùm Ascendisset in Coelum: Christe being One, accodinge to the Substance of his Manhoode, was absent from Heauen, when he was in Earthe: and for­sooke the Earthe, when he Ascended into Heauen.

Thus many times, M. Hardinge, ye haue these woordes in one place togea­ther in Fulgentius him selfe: The Godhed: the Manhoode: very God: very Man: The Fleash of Christe: The Substance of the Manhoode. And these [...]e the selfe same woordes, that you reproue.

Blotte out therefore for shame that vnaduised note in your Margine: Looke better to your Booke: Woorke hereafter more discretely: and trouble not, neither Pennemenne, nor others, without cause. Otherwise the Penneman wil tel you, what birde bare the feather, that made you a Penne.

M. Hardinge.

As wee acknowledge this article to be true and Catholike, so we demaunde of these Defenders. how they can proue the same. Vntruthe. As shal ap­peare. Haue they either expresse Scripture for it, or any of the first foure gene­ral Councels, whiche be estemed of most Authoritie? VVe are sure they haue not. Therefore we do them to vnderstand, and if they heare vs not, we aduertise the Readers, that feare God, and loue his truth, that al truthe necessarily to be beleued O folie. vvho euer saide other­vviset expressed in the Scripture: and that O folie. vvho euer saide other­vviset other Councels be to be receiued besides the foure first, which are allowed in England by Parlament.

The B. of Sarisburie

Consider, M. Hardinge, notwithstanding ye euermore tel vs of Fathers, Fa­thers, yet how contrarie oftentimes ye are in iudgement to the same Fathers. You saie, that the Godhed of the Holy Ghost cannot be proued by expresse Woordes of the Scriptures: and thereof, ye saie, ye are right sure. Yet S. Augustine nothinge douteth, Augustin. contra Literas Petilia­ni, Li. 3. Ca. 48. but it may wel be proued by plaine Scriptures. Thus he saith, Spiritus San­ctus est Deus. Vnde Petrus, cùm dixisser [...] Ausus es mentiri Spiritui Sancto, continuò se­quutus adiunxit, quid esse: Spiritus Sanctus: & ait, Non es mentitus Hominibus, sed Deo: [Page 91] The Holy Ghost is God. Therefore Peter when he had saide (vnto Ananias) thou hast en­terprised to lie to the Holy Ghost, he followed readily, and tolde him, what was the Holy Ghost: and saide, Thou hast not sied vnto Man, but vnto God.

Againe he saithe, Augustin. De Morib. Eccle. Catholi. Li. 1. Cap. 16. Ostendit Paulus, Deum esse Spiritum Sanctum, & idò non esse Creaturam: S. Paule sheweth vs, that the Holy Ghost is God: and therefore is no Creature.

Likewise againe he saith, Ne quisquam Spiritum Sanctum negaret Deum, con­tinuò sequutus ait, Glorificate, & portate Deum in Corpore vestro: Least any man should denie, Augustin. E­pisto. 174. that the Holy Ghost is God, Paule added immediately these woordes: Glorifie you there­fore, and beare God in your Body. Here haue wée S. Augustines Yea, and M. Har­dinges Nay. S. Augustine assureth vs, he hath Scriptures, to proue the Godhed of the Holy Ghoste: M. Hardinge saithe, wée are sure, he hath none at al. Iudge thou nowe, Gentle Reader, whether of these Doctours thou wilt beléeue.

But what a vaine vanitie, and folie is this? wil M. Hardinge haue vs beléeue, that God cannot be God, onlesse he be allowed by the Churche of Rome, and by the Pope? Then are wée come againe to that, y ^e Tertullian writeth merily of the Hea­thens: Nisi Homini Deus placuerit, Tertull. in Apo­logetico. Deus non erit: Homo iam Deo propitius esse debebit: Onlesse God please Man wel (though he be God) he shal be no God. And so nowe Man must be frendely, and fauourable vnto God.

Wée beleeue, M. Hardinge, that the Holy Ghost is very God in déede, not v­pon the Popes, or his Cleregies credite, but, as S. Augustine saith, vpon the spe­cial warrante of the Woorde of God.

And therefore Nazianzene saithe, Nazianzenus De Spiritu Sancto. [...]. Dicet aliquis, non esse scriptum, Spiritum Sanctum esse Deū. Atqui proponetur tibi examen Testimoniorum, ex quibus ostende­tur, Diuinitatem Sancti Spiritus testatam esse in Sacris Literis: nisi quis valde insulsus sit, & alienus à Spiritu Sancto: Some Man wil saie, It is not written, that the Holy Ghost is God. But I wil bring thee foorth a whole Svvarme of Authorities, whereby it shal wel ap­peare that the Godhed of the Holy Ghost is plainely witnessed in the Holy Scriptures: Onlesse a Man be very dul, and vtterly voide of the Holy Ghoste.

M. Hardinge.

It is a world to see these Defenders: They, whiche haue not kepte Vnitie of Spirite in the band of Charitie, Ephes. 4. which S. Paule requireth, but haue seuered them selues from the Body of the Church, tel vs now forsooth, they beleeue, that there is one Churche of God. But what maie wee thinke this one Churche to be? Can they seme to meane any other (what so euer they pretend) then this new Church of late yeeres set vp by Sathan, through the ministerie of Martine Luther and those other Apostates his companions, if it maie be named a Churche, and not rather a Babylonical Tower? For as touchinge that Churche, whereof Vntruth. For the Fa­thers in the Primitiue Churche neuer toke him so. al Christen People hath euer taken the Successour of Peter to be the Heade vnder Christe, whiche is the true Catholike Churche, in theire Apologie they sticke not to saie plainely, that it is clene fallen downe longe agone. And therefore the beginning of Luthers Seditious, and [Page 92] Heretical preaching they cal Herbam, as muche to saie, as the greene Grasse, or first spring (this in­terpreter nameth it the very first appearing) of the Gospel, Looke in the leafe H. 7. b. leafe. F. 7. And in the leafe. F. 8. they saie that fortie yeeres agone and vpward, that is at the first setting foorth of Luther and Zuinglius, the Truth was vnknowen and vnheard of, and that they first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospel. Likewise in an other place they graunt, Leafe E. 2: In Latine they terme it exor­tam Euangelii. that certaine and very strange sectes haue ben stirringe in the worlde euer since the Gospel did spring, meaning the time when Luther first brinced to Germanie the poisoned Cuppe of his Heresies, Blasphemies, and Sathanismer.

Thus hauing condemned the Churche of God, whiche was before Luthers time, and allowinge that for the true Churche, the Gospel whereof first sprang out of Luther: how can they auouche theire belefe, and by what reason and learning can they make good, that there is one Churche of God? VVee would faine knowe, whiche and where it is. Is Luther and his congregation that one Churche of God, or Zuinglius and his rable, or Osiunder and his sort, or Zuenckfeldius and his secte, or Stanca­rus and his band, or Balthasar Pacimontane and his rancke? For al these, and certaine other sectes haue Vntruth, As shal ap­peare. Luther for their founder, and for their Radix Iesse, as it were, from whence they spring: And in deede euery learned man easely seeth, how the gutters of their Doctrines runne out of Luthers sincke. Of al these there is none, but stoutly claimeth the name of the Churche.

Then how saie ye, Defenders, whiche Churche be ye? name the Childe. Yf ye name one, wee sette the others against you. &c.

How often in his bookes putteth Luther you, and your Captaines in the rolle of those, that he vtter­ly condemneth, naminge roundly togeather, Infidels, Turkes, Epicures, Heretikes, Papistes, Sacra­mentaries? And nowe if he should heare you chalenge the name of the one Churche of God to you, and denie him and his folowers that claimed title: would he not (thinke ye) stampe and rage, would he not whetie his dogge eloquence vpon you, and cal you worse then these aboue rekened, yea and if he wist how, worse then some of you be your selues? The like courtesie maieye looke for at those other sectes, of whiche euery one claimeth the name of this one Churche of God.

But ye saie, that this One Churche is not shutte vp into some one corner, or Kingdome, but that it is Catholike, and Vniuersal, and dispersed through out the whole world. True it is, that ye saie, Catholike Churche. VVhy is the Churche called Catholike. Threefold Vni­uersalitie an in­fallible marke to knovve the Churche by. what so euer ye thinke. But the Holy learned and auncien: Fathers, where they cal and be­leeue the Catholike Churche, they meane (as Vincentius Liriuensis declareth) the Churche to be Ca­tholike, that is to saie Vniuersal, (for so the word signifieth) in respecte of a threefold Vniuersalitie: of places, whiche this Defender here toucheth: of times, and of menne, whiche he toucheth not. In the Catholike Churche we must haue a great care (saithe he.) that we hold that, whiche hath euery where, euermore, and of al persons ben beleeued. If these Defenders proue not the Churche, they pro­fesse them selues to be of, to haue this threefold Vntuer salitie, then is their Congregation not this one Churche, nor of this one Churche of God, but the synagog of Antichriste.

And although the Authours of this Apologie crake of the great increase, and spredding abroade of their Gospel, and now glorie in the number of Kingedomes, Dukedomes, Countries, common VVeales, and Free Cities: Yet hath it not gone so farre abroade as the Arians heresie did by three partes of foure: VVhiche was at length vtterly extinguished, as this shal be.

That the Catholike Churche is the Kingedome, Christe alone Prince, Head, Bridegrome, Spouse of the Churche. In respect of outvvard go­uernment the name of Head is attributed to o­thers beside Christe. the Body and the Spouse of Christe, we acknow­ledge. Of the same Kingdome we confesse and beleeue Christ to be Prince alone, so as he is Heade of this Body alone, and so as he is Bridegrome of this spouse alone. For Head and Spouse alone he is in one respect, not alone in an other respect. According to the in ward influence of Grace. Christe properly and onely is Head of his Mystical Body the Churche: But as touching the outwarde Gouernment, the being of a Head is common to Christe with others. For in this respect certaine o­thers maie be called Heads of the Churche, as in Amos the Prophete the Amos. 6. ¶ Reg. 17. Psal. 17. & Cor. [...]. great States be called the Heads of the People. So the Scripture speaketh of Kinge Saule, VVhen thou were a litle one in thine owne eies, thou wastinade Head emong the Tribes of Israel. So Dauid saithe of him selfe, he hath made me Head of Nations.

Men be called Heads, in as muche as they be in stede of Christe, and vnder Christe: after which meaning S. Paule saith to the Corinthians, For if I forgaue any thing, to whom I forgaue it, for your sakes forgaue I, it, In persona Christi, In the Person of Christe. And in an other place, VVee [Page 93] are Ambassadours in the stede of Christe, Catho­lique in many, or fevve. as though God did exhort you through vs. To conclude in fewe, according to inwarde influence of grace into euery faithful member, Christe onely is Head of the Churche: according to outward gourning the Vntruthe. vvhat Scrip­ture, or Doctour euer said so? Pope vnde Christ and in sted of Christ is hed of y ^• same.

As touching the Bridegromesbip, we saie and beleeue, that if we would speake properly, 2. Corin. 5. Christ the true Bridegrome, the Pope vnderbrid­grome of the Churche, Ioan. 3. Christ is the onely Bridegrome of the Church his spouse of whom it is said he that hath a spouse, is a Bride­grome. For from one of the Churche he begetteth children to himselfe. But others are called Bride­gromes. Working together with Christe outwardly to the begetting of spiritual children, whom ne­uerthelesse they begette not to them selues, but to Christe. And suche are called the ministers of the Bridegrome, in as muche as they done his stede. And therefore the Pope, who is instede of Christe the Bridegrome of the whole Churche, is Vntruthe: For the Au­cient Fa­thers neuer called him so. called also the Bridegrome of the vniuersal Churche: a man maie terme him the vicegerent Bridegrome.

The B. of Sarisburie.

I trust, Gentle Reader, thou wilt not looke, I should answeare al M. Har­dinges ordinarie idle talke. So should I lose good time without cause, and be ouer troublesome to thine eates. O, saithe he, VVhat a world it is, to see these Defenders? They, whiche haue not keapt the vnitie of the Sprite, in the band of Charitie, whiche S. Paule requireth, but haue seuered them selues from the Body of the Churche, tel vs nowe for soothe, that they beleeue, that there is one Churche of God. O, M. Hardinge, if wée haue herein saide il, then beare witnesse of the il: If wée haue saide wel, wherefore make you these vitter outcries? What so euer ye haue conceiued vs to be, yet might ye suffer vs quietly to saie the Truthe, specially sutche Truthe, as you imagine maketh so mutche for your selfe.

Ye say, wée confesse, that our Churche beganne onely about fourtie yeeres sithence, and was neuer before. No, M. Hardinge, wée confesse it not: and you your selfe wel knowe, wée confesse it not. It is your tale: it is not ours. Wée saie, and haue sufficiently proued, and you knowe it right wel, if ye would be knowen of that ye know, y ^• our Doctrine is y ^• Olde, & yours is y ^• Newe, Yf ye wil néedes force your selfe to the denial, it may easily be proued, & that by sutch Authoritie, as your selfe may not wel denie: onlesse ye wil once againe do now, as ye haue twise done before.

Wée saie, that our Doctrine, & the order of our Churches is older then yours by fiue hundred whole yeeres and more. If ye wil not beleeue vs, yet beleeue M. Hardinge: M. Hardinge Foli. 15. a. he wil tel you euen the same. Marke wel his woordes: These they be: It standeth not with Christe his promises made to the Churche, that he should suffer his Church to conti­nue in darkenesse these thousand yeeres past.

And thus by secrete confession, he leaueth vs fiuehundred three score and sixe whole yeeres at the least: that is to saie, the whole time of Christe, of his Apostles, and of al the Godly Learned Doctours, and Fathers of the Primitiue Churche. Whiche time notwithstanding is thought a great deale better, and purer, then al the time, that hath folowed afterwarde. In this Diuision M. hardinge being at­tente, and eger vpon his cause, and claiming as mutche, as he thought with any modestie he might be hable, hath claimed to him selfe onely a thousand yeeres of the night: and hath leafte vs welneare sixe hundred yeeres of the daie.

This is your owne witnesse, M. Harding: Consider wel of it. It is your owne. Therefore ye doo your selfe great wronge, and mutche deface your owne credite, so suddainely to saie, our Doctrine is Newe. Gods name be blessed, it hath the Testimonie, not onely of Christe, and his Apostles, but also of the olde Learned Catholique Fathers of the Churche. And this is it, that so mutche greeueth you, that wee refourme our Churches nowe according to the paterne, and samplar of Christes, and his Apostles firste Institution. For thereby the disorder, and defor­mitie of your Churches the more appeareth.

Lirinensis saithe, Vincentius Lirinensis That thing must be holden for Catholique, that euerywhere, euer­more, and of al menne hath benne beleeued. These general notes must be limited with [Page 94] this special restrainte: Catho­lique in many, or fevve. VVhere as the Churches vvere not corrupted. For o­therwise there was neuer any Doctrine so Catholique, ne not the Confessed Do­ctrine of Christe him selfe, that hath benne receiued, Euermore, &, Eueryvvhere, and of al menne without any exception. But, M. Hardinge, these selfe same notes of Lirinests vtterly euerthrowe the greatest part of that whole Doctrine, that you would so saine haue counted Catholique. For neither reacheth to within fiue hundred yeeres of the Apostles time: nor hath it that Antiquitte indeed, that in face, and countenance is pretended, as it is plaine by your owne former Confession: nor was it euer vniuersally receiued, as herafter by Particulares it shal be proued. It had neuer that vniuersalitie, neither of al times, and ages: nor of al places, and countries: nor was it euer vniuersally receiued & allowed of al men. Therefore, what so euer ye cal it, ye cannot by your owne Definition cal it Catholique.

The Catholique Churche of God standeth not in multitude of Persones, but in weight of Truthe. Otherwise Christe him selfe, and his Apostles had not ben Catholique. For his flocke was very litle: & the Catholique, or Vniuersal con­sent of the World stoode against it. The Churche of God is compared to the Moone: for that she waxethe, and waneth, as the Moone dothe, & sometime is ful, sometime is emptie: Augustin. de Gene. ad liter. Cap. 1. and therefore, as S. Augustine saith, is called Catholica, quia Vniuer­saliter perfecta est, & in nullo claudicat, & per totum Orbem diffusa est: Bicause she is V­niuersally perfite, and halteth in nothing, and is (not now shut vp in one onely Countrie, as was the Churche of the Iewes, but) powred throughout the whole World. Though the hartes of men haue often changes, yet Gods Truthe is euermore one: and, be it in many, or in fewe, is euer Catholique. Thus, M. Hardinge, it is written by one of your owne side: Fortalitium Fidei, Li. 5. Etsi non nisi duo Homines remanerent in Mundo, tamen in eis salua­retur Ecclesia, quae est Vnitas Fidelium: Although there were but two men remaining in the world, yet euen in them two the Churche, whiche is the Vnitie of the Faithful, should be soued.

Luthers dogge eloquence, for so, M. Hardinge, it liketh you of your modestie to cal it, were it neuer so rough, and vehement, the iust zele of Gods glorie, and of his Holy Temple, whiche you so miserably had defaced, so enforcing him, yet was it neuer any thing comparable to your eloquence. For, I beséeche you, if ye maie haue leasure, harken a litle, & heare your selfe talke. Behold your owne woordes, so many, so vaine, so bitter, so firie, so furious, al togeather in one place: This newe Churche, ye saie, set vp by Sathan: Martine Luther, and other Apostates his companions: This Ba­bylonical Tower: Luthers seditious, and Heretical preaching: Luther brinced to Germanie the poi­soned Cuppe of his Heresies, Blasphemies, and Sathnismes: Zuing lius, and his rable: The gutters of this Doctrine runne out of Luthers sincke: Luther would stamps, and rage, and whette his dogge eloquence vpon you: You are the Synagog of Antichriste. These be the Figures, and Flowers of your speache. Yet must we thinke, that ye can neither stampe, nor rage: but vse onely Angelles eloquence. How be it. I trust, no wise man wil iudge our cause the worse, for that your tongue can so readily serue you to speake il.

To the mater, ye saie, that, touching the influence of Erace, Christe onely is the Head of the Churche: but touching Direction, & Gouernment, the Pope onely is the Head. Al this is but your owne tale, M. Hardinge: Ye speake it onely of your selfe: Other Authoritie of Scripture, or Doctour ye bringe ve-none.

And yet notwithstanding, ye haue alleged Scriptures too, God wote, euen as ye haue vsed to doo in other places.

Ye saie, 2. Corin. 2. 2. Corin. 5. S. Paule saithe, Yf I forgaue any thing, for your sakes I forgaue it, in the personne of Christe: Wee are Embassadours in the steede of Christe, euen as though God did exhorte you through vs: Hereof ye conclude, Ergo, The Pope vnder Christe, and in the steede of Christe is Heade of the Churche. Yf ye conclude not thus, ye wander idlely, and speake in vaine, & condlude nothing. These woordes of S. Paule nothing touche y ^• Pope, but onely the faithful, & zelous Preacher of the Gospel. For wherein dothe [Page 95] the Pope resemble S. Paule? Heade Wherein doothe he reprosente the Personne of Christe? What exhorteth he? What teacheth he? What saithe he? What doothe he? And yet if he would do any one part of his whole duetie, how might this Argu­ment stand for good: S. Paule being at y ^• Cittie of Philippi in Maerdonia, exhorted the Corinthians, as in the Personne of Christe: Ergo, the Pope being at Rome in Italie, although he neither exhorte, nor preache, yet is he the Head of the Vniuer­sal Churche? Although Diuinitie goe harde with you, yet ye shoulde haue seens better to your Logique.

I graunte, Bishoppes may be called the Heades of theire seneral Churches. So Chrysostome calleth Chrysostom in Epist ad Roma. hom. 18. Elias Caput Prophetarum, The Head of the prophetee: So A­mos saith, Amos. 6. The Princes are the Heades of y ^• people: So Saul is called 1. Regum. 15. the Head of the Tribes of Israel: So Dauid was made Psalm. 17. Caput Gentiū, The Head of Nations: Sondrie sutch other like examples I alleged in my Former Articul. 4. Diui. 32. Replie to M. Hardinge: As that Cyrillius the Bishop of Alexandria, in the Councel of Ephesus was called Cyrill. tomo. 4. Epist. 5. Caput Episcoporum congregatotum, The Head of the Bishoppes, that these were assembled: That S. Gregorie saith, Gregor. in. 1. Regum. lib. 4. Cap. 4. Paulus ad Christum conuersus Caput effectus est Natlonūm Paule being once conuerted to Christe, was made the Head of Nation: That Prudentius saithe, Prudentius in Enchiridio. Sancta Bethlem Capur eitorbis: Holy Bethlem is the Head of the World. In this sense Optatus saithe, Optatus Li. 1. & 2. There be foure sortes of Heades in the Churche, the Bishops, the Priestes, the Deacons, The Faithful: And al this onely in a certaine kinde of phrase, and man­ner of speache. But in déede and verily S. Augustine saithe, Augustin con­tra Liter. Petil. Li. 1. Ca. 5. Paulus ipse non po­terat Caput esse eorum, quos plantauerat: Paule him selfe could not be the Head of them, whom he had planted, Therefore Gregorie saithe, Gregor. Li. 4. Epist. 38. Petrus Apostolus Primum, Membrū Sanctae & Vniuersalis Ecclesiae est. Paulus, Andreas, Iohannes, quid aliud, quam singu­lariū sunt plebium Capita? Tamen sub Vno Capite omnes Membra sunt Ecclesiae, Arque ve cuncta breui cingulo locutionis astringam, sancti ante Legem, Sacti in Lege, Sancti sub Gratia: Omnes hi perficientes Corpus Domini in Membris sunt Ecclesiae constituti. Et nemo se vnquam Vniueisalem vocari voluit: Peter the Apostle is ( not the Head, but) the chiefe Member of the Holy Vniuersal Churche. Paule, Andrewe, and Iohn, what are they els, but the Heades of seueral Nations? Yet notwithstandinge vnder one Head ( Christe) they are al Members of the Churche. And to speake shortely, the Sainctes before the Lawe, Peter was a member of the Churche but not the Heade. the Sainctes in the time of Grace, al accomplis­shing the Lordes Body, are placed emonge the Members of the Churche, And there was ne­uer yet one, that would haue him selfe called the Vniuersal Bishop, Therfore where as M. Hardinge saithe, Al Christian People haue euer taken the Successour of Peter to be the Heade of the Catholique Churche vnder Christ, he speaketh it onely of him selfe. Iohan. 8. And though the comparison be odious, yet Christe saithe, Cùm loqui­tur mendacium, ex proprijs loquitur: when he speakethe Vntruthe, he speaketh it of his owne. S. Gregorie saithe, Peter was the chiefe Member of the Churche of Christe: but not the Head.

But the Bishop of Rome, De Election. ca. Licet Abb. and his hired Proctours haue taught vs farre otherwise. Panormitane saithe: Christus & Papa faciunt vnum Consistortum: &, excepto peccaio, Papa potest, quicquid Deus ipse potest: Christe, and the Pope make one Consistone, and keepe one Courte: And, sinne onely excepted, the Pope can doo, what so euer God him selfe can doo. This, I trowe, is that Head of Direction, and Gouern­mente, that M. Hardinge meaneth.

As for the reste, that the Churche is the Kingedome of Christe, and the Pope the Prince thereof, Extra. Noult ille, In gloss. M. Hardinge in special woordes answeareth nothinge. Notwithstandinge some others haue saide, Petro & Coelestis, & Terreni Imperij iu­ra commissa sunt: Vnto Peter was committed the right both of the Heauenly, and also of the Earthely Empiere.

[Page 96] Last of al he doubteth not, Orders. but the Pope maye be called the Spouse, or Bride­grome of the Vniuersal Churche: and yet the same without the Authoritie of any Doctour. He allegeth onely S. Bernarde: But the same S. Bernarde in the selfe same place saithe, and that by M. Hardinges owne confession, that the Pope is not the Bridegrome of the Churche. And therefore he was faine to expounde his meaninge, and to weigh him downe of the other side with his prety Glose. But S. Bernarde, without Glose saithe plainely: Non sunt omnes amici Spousi, qui hodiè sunt Sponsi Ecclesae: Bernard in Con­cil. Remensi. Bernard ad Eui­geni. de Conside­ra. Li. 3. They be not al the Bridegromes frendes, that are this daye the Spouses of the Churche, O miserandain Sponsam ralibus creditam Paranymohis. Non accici Sponsi, sed aemuli sunt: O miserable is that Spouse, that is committed to sutche Lea­ders. They are not the frendes, they are the enimies of the Bridegrome.

How be it wée néede not greatly to recke, what styles, and titles the Pope can vouchesaue to allowe him selfe. As he may be called the Heade, the Prince, and the Spouse: euen so, and by like authoritie, and truthe, may he be called the Light, the Life, the Saueour, and the God of the Churche.

God geue him an harte to vnderstande, that hée maie be, although not the Heade, yet a Member of that Body although not the Prince, yet a Subiecte in that Kingedome: although not the Bridegrome, yet a Childe of the Churche of God.

M. Hardinge.

Here it had ben your parte to haue declared your faithe touching the Holy Sacrament of Order, Sacramonte of Order By good reason. agreable to the faith of the Catholike Churche: That there be seuen orders in the Churche, foure lesser, and three greater: Vntruthes boldly pre­sumed, as by the aun­svveare it may ap­peare. for so by good reason they are called. And as for the institution, auctoritie, and e­stimation of the greater, specially of Priesthood and Deaconship, ye might haue alleged the Scrip­tures: so for the Lesser the example of Christe, the Tradition of the Apostles, and the testimonies written of the Apostles scholers, of those that bothe nexte, and sone after folowed them, namely Dionys. cap. 3. Hierarch. Ecclesiast. Ignatius epist. 8. ad Ecclesiam Antiochenam, Ter­tullian in praescript. aduersus Hereticos, Gaius Pope and Martyr in Diocletians time, Sozimus in S. Augustines time, Isychius, Eusebius Caesariensis is his Ecclesiastical historie, and Epiphanius in the ende of his Booke contra Haereses.

The B. of Sarisburie

Gentle Reader, if I should leaue these, and other like M. Hardinges woordes vnansweared, thou mightest happily thinke, he had saide somewhat. Here, he saithe, it had benne our Parte to haue tolde thée of Seuen Orders in the Churche, thrée Greatter, and foure Lesse: Hauing in déede him selfe cleane forgotten his owne Parte. For notwithstandinge this controlment, and accoumpte of so many Orders, yet he nameth no moe Orders, then wée haue named. And verily, if he would haue folowed his owne Authorities, it had benne hard for him, in any good Order to haue made vp his owne accoumpte.

For his owne Anacletus saithe, Ampliùs, quàm isti Duo Ordines Sacerdotum, (Episcopi, & Presbyteri) nec nobis à Deo collati sunt, Anacletus Epi­stola. 3. Hieronym. ad Euagrium nec Apostoli docuerunt: More then these two Orders of Priestes (Bishoppes, and Elders) neither hathe God appointed vs, nor hauē the Apostles tought vs. And yet of these same Two seueral Orders, S. Hierome semeth to make onely One Order. For thus he writeth: Audio, quendam in tantam erupisse [Page 97] vecordiam, Orders. vt Diaconos Presbyteris, id est, Episcopis anteferret: I heare saye, there is a man broken out vnto sutche wilful furie, Hieronym. in eadem Epistola. that he placeth Deacons before Priestes, that is to saye, be­fore Bishops: And againe: Apostolus praecipué docer, eosdem esse Presbyteros, quos Episcopos: The Apostle, Paule, specially teacheth vs, that Priestes, and Bishoppes be al one. Hierony in Esai, Cap 19. Catechumeni. The same S. Hierome writinge vpon the Prophete Esai, reckenethe one­ly fiue Orders, or Degrees in the whole Churche: The Bishoppes, the Priestes, the Deacons, the Entrers, or Beginners, and the Faitheful. And other Order of the Churche he knoweth none.

Clemens saithe, Clemens Epist. 2. De con. [...] st 3. Tribus gradibus Tribus gradibus eommissa sunt Sacramenta Diuinorum Secretorū, id est, Presbytero, Diacono, & Ministro: The Mysteries of the Holy Secresies be committed vnto three Orders: that is, vnto the Priestes, vnto the Deacons, and vnto the Ministers: And yet Deacons, and Ministers, as touchinge the name, are al one.

Dionysius likewise hathe thrée Orders, Dionysi Eccle. Hierar. Cap. 5. but not the same: For he rekenethe Bishoppes, Priestes, & Deacons. And whereas M. Hardinge maketh his ac­coumpte of Foure of the Lesse, or Inferiour Orders, meaning thereby, Ostiarios, Lectores, Exorcistas, Acoluthos: The Doore keepers, the Readers, the conuerers, and the Waiters, or Folowers: Ignatius ad An­tiochen [...]. Hierony. De 7. ordinibus Eccl. His owne Ignatius addethe thereto thrée other Orders: Cantores, Laboratores, Confitentes: The Chounters or Singers, the Labourers, and the Con­fessours. Elemens addeth thereto, Catechistas, The Infourmers, or Teachers of them that were entringe into the Faithe. A litle vaine Booke, bearinge the name of S. Hierome, De Septē Ordinibus Ecclesiae, addeth yet an other Order, and calleth them Fossarios, that is, The Sextines, or Ouerseers of the Graues. And, least you should thinke he rekeneth this Order, as emongst other necessarie offices to serue the people, and not as any parte of the Cleregie, his wordes be these, Primus in Clericis Fossariorum Ordo est: qui in similitudinem Tobiae Sancti sepelire morruos admonet: The Firste Order of the Cleregie, is the Order of the Sextines: whiche, as Holy Tob [...]e was woonte to doo, casse vppon the people for the burial of the deade.

Likewise to the thrée greater Orders Isidorus addeth an other distincte & seue­ral Order of Bishoppes: Isidor. Elymolog. Lib. 1. Cap. 12. Scotui in 4. Sen. Distin. 24. Qu. 1. Ambros in Epist. Ad Ephe. Cap. 4. vnto whom agréethe Gulielmus Altisiodorensis, & Got­tofredus Pictauiensis, as appeareth by Iohannes Scotus. Againe of the other In­feriour Orders, S. Hierome leaueth out the Coniurers, & VVaiters: S. Ambrose leaueth out the VVaiters, and Doore Keepers: The Canons of the Apostles leaue out Coniurers, VVaiters, and Doore keepers, al thrée togeather.

In this so greate dissension, & darkenesse, what waie wil M. Hardinge take, to folow? By Anacletus, there be Two Orders: by Clemens, & S. Hierome, Thrée: by Hierome Countrefeite, Seuē: by others Eight, by other Nine, by others Tenne.

At this notwithstandinge, he telleth vs, our parte had benne, to haue shewed, that there be iuste Seuen Orders in the Churche, Thrée greate, and Foure Lesse, withoute doubte, or question.

Here, gentle Reader, it had benne M. Hardinges parte to haue shewed vs the Reasons, and Groundes of this Diuinitie: These they be, as they are alleged by the beste of that side: Petrus Lombar. senten Lib. 4. Distin. 24. Christe saith, I am the Doore: Ergo, there muste be in the Churche an Order of Doore Keepers. Christe saithe, I am the Light of the World: Hereupon haue thei founded the Order of Acolutes, to carrie Tapers. And so for the reste. Thus mutche maie serue for a taste.

Now let vs consider, what these Orders haue to doo, and with how Holy, and weighty offices they stand charged in the Churche of God. Firste Clemens (of whoes Authoritie M. Hardinge maket be no smal accoumpte, for he calleth him the Apostles folowe) writeth thus: Clement consi. Apost. Li. 8. Ca. 15. Vnus Hypodiaconus det aquam manibus Sa­cerdotum: Duo Diaconi ex vtàque parte Altaris teneat flabellum confectum ex te­nuibus membranis, vel ex Pauonum pennis, quibus leuiter abigant praeteruclantes [Page 98] bestiolas, Orders. ne in Pocula incidant: Let one of the Subdeacons geue Water to the Priestes handes: Let two Deacons stande at the two endes of the Austore: either of them with a fanne made of fine Parchemente, or of Pecockes taises, therewith softely to chase awaie the fl [...]es, that they fal not into the Communion Cuppes. The offices of other Inferioure Or­ders be these, as they be noted by one of M. Hardinges owne side: Aureum Specu­lum Pap [...]. Ad Minores Or­dines haec spectant: Portare Cereos, & Vrceolum: & Canes expellere de Ecclesia: To the sesse Orders these thinges belonge: to carrie Tapers, and Holy Water stockes: and to dr [...]ue Doogges of the Churche. These, I trowe, be the Mystical Holy Orders, whereof M. Hardinge saithe, Our parte had benne, to haue made somme songe discourse: beinge him selfe ashamed, as it maie appeare by his silence, either to name them in parti­culare, or to open the Secretes of theire offices.

Howe be it in deede, good Christian Reader, sundrie of these offices in the Pri­mitiue Churche were appointed to very good, & sober purposes: The Doore kee­pers office was then, to keepe out Excommunicate personnes, that they should not presse in emonge the Faithful: The Psalmistes, or Singers office was, to singe the Psalmes, thereby to moue the peoples hartes to deuotion: The Exorcistes office was, by a special gifte of God▪ seruinge onely for that time, to cal foorth soule Sprites out of the Bodies of them, that were possessed. The Readers office was, openly, and plainely, and distinctely to pronounce the Scriptures vnto the people: and to this vse the Bishop deliuered vnto him a Booke with this charge: [...]ist 23. Lector. Accipe, & esto relator Verbi Dei: Take thou this Booke, and be thou a pronounc [...]r of the Woorde of God. [...]ist. 23. Cleros. And therefore Isidorus saithe, Tanta, & [...]am clara erit eius vox, vt quamuis long [...] positorum aures adimpleat: The Readers voice muste be so sowd, and so cleare, that it maye be hable to fille the eates of them, that stande far of. The Acolothes, or VVai­ters office was, to attende vpon the Bishop, as a witnesse of his conuersation.

To sutche good vses these offices then serued in the Churche of God. But now there is nothinge leafte, sauinge the bare name onely, without any maner vse, or Office. For neither doothe the Ostiarius kéepe out the Excommunicates: Nor doothe the Acoluthus waite vpō the Bishop: Nor doothe the Exorciste cast foorthe Diuels: Nor doothe the Psalmiste Singe the Psalmes: Nor doothe the Reader o­penly pronounce the Scriptures: (I might yet steppe alitle farther, to open the whole bewtie of the Cleregte of Rome) nor doothe the Deacon make prouision for the poore: nor doothe the Bishop preache the Woorde of God.

This had benne our parte to haue opened at large: And for leaning of the same, we were woorthy by M. Hardinges iudgemente, to be reproued.

The B. of Sarisburie.

M. Hardinges answeare hereto is longe, and tedious. The Substance therof in short is this: Where wée saie, No one Mortal Man is hable to wealde the bur­then of the whole Churche of God, M. Hardinge answeareth: VVhere any thinge is in deede, there whether it may be, or no▪ to discusse, it is needlesse. Therefore whether any one man can [Page 99] be superiour, and chiefe ouer the whole Churche, wee leaue to speake: that so it is, thus wee proue: Euery Parrishe hathe his seueral Vicare, 1. or Personne: And euery Dioces his owne Bishop. Ergo, what reason is it, there be not one Chiefe Gouernoure of the whole Christen people?

VVhen questions be moued in maters of Faithe, 2. throughe diuersities of iudgementes the Churche should be diuided, onlesse by Authoritie of One it were kepte in Vnitie.

They, 3. that saie otherwise, take from Christe the Glorie of his prouidence, and the praise of his greate loue towardes his Churche.

The Peace of the Churche is more conueniently procured by one, 4. then by many.

It is moste meete, that the Churche Militante, touchinge Gouernment, 5. resemble the Churche Trium­phante. But in the Triumphante Churche one is Gouernoure ouer the whole, that is God: Therfore in the Churche Militant order requireth, that one beare rule ouer al accordinge to that the Holy Captaine Iosue seemeth to speake, Iosue, 1. The Children of Iuda, and the Children of Israel shal aessemble togeather, A greate ouerfight: For these be the vvoordes, not of the Captaine Iosua, but of the Pro­phete Osee. and they shal make to them selues one Head: Thereof our Lord saithe in S. Iohn, Iohan. 10. There shalbe One Folde, and One Shephearde.

In deede Christe is Heade of his Body. Yet neede it is, for as mutche as Christe nowe dwelleth not with vs in Visible Presence, his Churche haue one Man to doo his steede of outwarde rulinge in Earthe: And therefore he saide vnto Peter, Feede my Flocke: Confirme they Brethren.

Thus wee see these Defenders Negatiue Doctrine, That no One Man maie haue the Superioritie ouer the whole state of the Churche, disproued, as vtterly false.

To theire seconde reason, Loe. we graunt, Christe needed not any man to supplie his roome, that should succede in his whole Substance. Neither is Man of Capacitie of sutche succession: Vntruthe. For Panor­mitane saithe, Papa potest, quic quid Deus ipse potest. neither hathe there any sutche fonde saieinge ben vttered by the Diuines.

But bicause Christe sawe the knot of Vnitie should be moste surely kepte knit by Gouernmente of one, he Vntruthe. committed the regimēt of the whole Churche vnto One: whoes Visible Ministerie he might vse in steede of him selfe.

To the thirde we saye, that Man is not onely hable to comprehende in his minde, and conceiue the Vniuersal Churche, but also to put it in order, and to Gouerne it so far as is expedient.

Laste of al, who so euer wil not be fedde nor ruled by this one Shepheard, and breaketh out of this one Folde, he is not of the Flocke of Christe, but of the Hearde of Antichriste.

Here, Gentle Reader, M. Hardinge hathe brought thée, not the Authoritie of any one Catholique Doctour, or Learned Father, but onely a few colde Reasons of his owne, with certaine Scriptures vnaduisedly alleged, and violently forced from theire meaninge, as shal soone appeare.

His firste Reason concludeth very weakely: Euery parishe is gouerned by One Vicare, 1. or Personne: & euery Diocese is gouerned by One seueral Bishop: Ergo, ther is One Vniuersal Gouernour ouer the whole Churche of Christe. Here is nei­ther order in Reason, nor sequele in nature. Therefore if any man woulde denie the Argument, M. Hardinge were neuer hable to make it good. He might as wel, and in as good order reason thus: Euery Kingdome, or Common Weale hathe One Prince, or Magistrate to rule ouer it: Ergo, There is One Vniuersal Prince, to rule ouer the whole worlde. Or thus, Euery Flocke of Shéepe bathe One Se­ueral Shephearde to ouersée them: Ergo, al the Flockes through the world are ouerséene by One General Shephearde. Otherwise, M. Hardinge imagineth, this fowle absurditie muste néedes folowe, that the parte is better Gouerned, then the whole.

The other thrée Reasons, 2. 3. 4. In the fourthe Article, and in the 18. and 19. touchinge the Prouidence of God, the Debatinge of questions in Faithe, and conseruinge of Peace, and Vnitie in the Churche, are an­sweared already in my Former Replie to M. Hardinge. Diuisions. In déede, I remember, to a­uouche al that M. De Maior. & Obedien. Vnam Sanctam. In Glossa. Hardinge hathe here saide, one sometimes wel inclined to that side, saide thus: Non videretur Dominus discretus fuisse (vt cum reuerentia eius loquar) nisi Vnicum post se talem Vicarium reliquisset, qui haec omnia posset: Christe our Lorde [Page 100] should not haue seemed to haue dealte discretely (to speake it with reuerence) onlesse he had leafte One sutche Ʋicare behinde him, Vnitie by one Pope. that might haue donne al these thinges.

I graunte, Dissension, and quarrelles be the sooner ended, when al thinges be put ouer to one Man: So that the same one Man maye liue for euer, and stil conti­newe in one minde, and neuer alter. But oftentimes one Pope is sounde con­trarie to an other: Platyna in Sa­bini ano. Sabellicus En­neade. 9. Lib. 1. Platyna, in Ste­phano Sexto. Platyna, in Ro­mano. 1. & sometimes one Pope hathe benne found contrarie to him selfe. Pope Sabinianus would haue burnte al Pope Gregories Bookes: And, as it is saide before, Pope Romanus vtterly abolished al the Actes of his Predecessour Pope Steuin: The same Pope Steuin vnburied his Predecessour Pope Formo­sus, and defaced, and mangled his naked carkesse, and vtterly condemned al, that had benne donne by him before: And Platina geuethe this general iudgemente of them, Nihil aliud isti Pontificuli cogitabant, quàm vt Nomen, & Dignitatem Maiorum suorum extinguerent: These litle Petite Popes had none other care in the world, but howe to deface the Name, and Estimation of other Popes, that had benne before them. And thus, that one Pope liketh, an other misliketh: that one alloweth, an other condemneth. And yet by M Hardinges iudgement, wée haue none other rule to staie by in doubt­ful cases, but onely the Wil, and Pleasure of the Pope.

Howe be it, this, I trowe, is not the readieste waie to procure Peace, and to mainteine Vnitie in the Churche. And therefore Gregorie saithe of Iohn the Bi­shop of Constantinople, Gregori. Lib 4. that claimed to him selfe this Vniuersal Power, Epist. 34. 38. Si hanc causam aequanimiter portamus, Gregori. Lib. 4. totius Ecclesiae Fidem corrumpimus: Epist. 76. Corruit Vni­uersa Ecclesia à statu suo, si is, qui Vniuersalis dicitur, cadit: If wee quietly suffer this ma­ter thus to procede (that one Man shal be called the Vniuersal Bishop, wée seeke not waies to mainteine Vnitie, but) wee ouerthrowe the Faithe of the whole Churche: Yf be, that is called the Ʋniuersal Bishop, happen to falle, the whole Churche fallethe from her state. Thus therefore, to allowe any one Man Vniuersal Authoritie ouer the whole Churche, is a mater, not behoueful, and profitable, as M. Hardinge fansieth, but, as Gregorie saithe, doubteful, and dangerous to the Churche. For althoughe al the world either would, or could geue eare, and credite to one Man, yet were not that therefore alwaies Christian Vnitie. August. De Vera Relig ione Ca. 45 S. Augustine saithe, Habet & Superbia ap­petitum quendam Vnitatis, & Omnipotentiae: Pride it selfe hathe a certaine desire of Vni­tie, and of Vniuersal Power.

An other of M. Hardinges Reasons is this: The Churche Labouringe here in Earthe must resemble the Churche of the Sainctes Triumphing in Heauē. But in Heauen God onely is the Gouernoure ouer the whole: Therefore, in the Churche beneathe, the Pope likewise muste needes be Gouernoure ouer the whole. Thus God muste be rated to Gouerne aboue, and the Pope beneath: & so, as one sometime saide, Diuisum Imperium cum loue Caesar habet.

This is a valiante kinde of Argument. It holdeth from Heauen to Earthe: from Angelles to Menne: from God to the Pope.

But how knoweth M. Hardinge, what Orders of Angelles, and Archangelles there be in Heauen? what they doo: howe they deale: who ruleth: who are ruled: what Lawes, and Policies they haue emongste them? They saie, thei would frame theire Churche accordinge to the Samplar: And yet good menne they neuer knewe, nor sawe the Samplar. But onely of them selues they imagine Common Weales, and Orders in Heauen: and accordinge to the same, they woulde shape, and fashon theire owne Churche in Earthe. The better waye, M. Hardinge, had benne, seeinge the whole mater hangeth onely vppon your fantasies, to saie, that God hathe appointed one Principal Archangel to be Pope in Heauen: and al other Powers, Angelles, & Dominions to be his Subiectes. Thus might ye easily haue made your frame to agree with your Paterne, and the one of your fansies to an­sweare the other.

[Page 101] For to saie, Iosua for O­see. as you saie, Churche Trium­phante, & Militāte. God ruleth al in Heauen aboue: Therefore the Pope must rule al in the worlde beneath, it is but a sclender kinde of reasoninge. S. Au­gustine saithe, Quid aliud in Pompa huius mundi homo appetit, nisi Solus esse, si fieri possit, cui multa subiecta sint: August. De V [...]ra Religione, Ca. 4 [...] Peruersa, scil [...]et, imitatione Omnipotentis Dei? In the Ʋaine Pompe of this worlde what thinge els is [...] ▪ that a man doothe desire, but, if it were possible, to make him selfe alone sutche a one, vnto whom many thinges maye be obedient: and that by a peeuishe countrefeitinge of God Omnipotente?

And this is it, that Gregorie saithe of Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople: Illum, videlicet, imitatur, qui spreta Angelorum societate, ascendere conatus est ad cul­men Singularitatis: Gregori. Lib. 4. He foloweth Lucifer, Epist. 78. who despisinge the felowship of the Angelles, la­boured to geate vp to the toppe of Singularitie, and saide, I wil mounte vp aboue the Northe, and wilbe like vnto the Highest.

Verily, Dionysius writinge purposely of the Policie, and Gouernmente of the Churche, & comparinge the same withe the Glorious Gouernmente of the Angels and powers in Heauen, yet neuer vttered one Woorde of the Vniuersal Gouern­mente of the Pope. Nay rather in the late Councel of Constance, out of this very place is Fourmed an Argumente to the contrarie: In Coelesti Hierarchia tota Congregatio Angelorum non habet Caput Vnum, In Opere Triparti. Li. 2. Ca. [...] praeter solum Deum: Ergo, à Simili, in Ecelesiastica Hierarchia Hominū nō debet esse Vnum Caput, praeter Solum Deū: In the Heauenly Gouernemente the whole Companie of the Angels hathe none other One Heade, but onely God: Therefore of the like, in the Ecclesiastical Gouernmente emongste Menne, there ought not to be any One Heade, but onely God.

Neuerthelesse M. Hardinge is wel hable to fortifie al these thinges by the Authoritie of the Scriptures. And here in steede of the firste Chapter of the Prophete Osee, Josua for Osee. be allegeth the firste Chapter of the Booke of Iosua. And leste thou shouldest thinke, it were onely a marginal errour, brought in by somme ouer­sight of the Printer, as he vsethe sometimes to excuse, and to shifte the mater, he hathe thus laide it wide open in his owne texte, Hereof the Holy Captaine Iosue seemeth to speake. Howe be it, one errour maie the better be dissembled emongst so many.

In deede the Prophete Osee, and not the Holy Captaine Iosua, speaketh these woordes: but not, as M. Hardinge imagineth▪ of the state of al Christendome vnder One Pope, but of that Vnitie, and Consente, that al the Faithful of the worlde, as wel Iewes, as Gentiles should haue vnder One Christe: as it is moste euident by the whole discourse of the texte.

Thus lie the Woordes: Osee Cap. [...] The number of the Children of Israel shalbe as the Sande of the Sea shoare, that cannot be numbred: And it shal comme to passe in the place, where it was saide vnto them, Ye are no people of mine, There shal it be saide vnto them, Ye are the Children of the Liuinge God. And the Children of Juda, and the Children of Israel shal assemble togeather, and shal appointe vnto them selues one Heade. Vppon whiche Woordes S. Hierome Writethe thus: Haec omnia fient, quia magnus est Dies Se­minis Dei, Hierony. in Ose [...] Cap. 1. qui interpretatur Christus: Al these thinges shal comme to passe, bicause it is the greate daye of the Seede of God, whiche Seede is expounded ( not the Pope, but) Christe.

Likewise Nicolas Lyra, Congregabuntur Filij Iuda, id est, Apostoli: & Filij Israel, id est, Nicol. Lyra in Osee Cap 1. Gentiles conuersi: Pariter, id est, in Vna Ecclesia: & ponent sibi Caput Vnum, id est, Christum: There shal assemble togeather the Children of Iuda, that is to saie, the A­postles: and the Children of Israel, that is to saie, the Heathens conuerted: Togeather, that is to saie, in One Churche: and shal appointe vnto them selues One Head, that is to saie, ( not one Pope, as M. Hardinge woulde haue it, but) One Christe.

[Page 102] S. Augustine expoundinge the same wordes saithe thus: One Shepheard &c. Augu. De Ciui­tate. Li. 18. Ca 28 Recolatur Lapis ille Angularis, & duo illi parietes, vnus ex Iudaeis, & alter ex Gentibus: Let vs remember that Corner Stone (that is Christe, and not the Pope) and the twoo VValles, the one of the Iewes, the other of the Heathens.

The other woordes, Iohan. 10. whiche M. Hardinge allegeth out of S. Iohn, Christe him selfe expoundeth, not of the Pope, but of him selfe: I am the good Shephearde: I yelde my life for my Sheepe: I knowe my Sheepe, and am knowen of them: I haue other Sheepe. that be not of this Flocke. Them muste I bringe, that they maye heare my Voice: and so shal there be one Shepheard, and one Flocke. These woordes Chrysostome expoundeth by the woordes of S. Paule: Ephes. 2 Chrysost. in Io­han Homil. 59. Vt duos conderet in Semetipso in Vnum nouum Hominem: That he might woorke twoo people into One newe Man ( not in the Pope, but) in him selfe.

S. Augustine expoundinge the same saithe thus, Augu. in Iohan. Tract. 47. Duobus istis Gregibus, tāquam duobus Parietibus, Christus factus est Lapis Augularis: Vnto these twoo Flockes, as vnto twoo VValles (not the Pope, but) Christe was made the Corner Stone.

And what should I allege any other the Olde Fathers? Nicolaus Lyra in Iohan. Ca. 10. Nicolas Lyra, as sim­ple an Interpreter, as he was, yet he likewise saithe the same: Fiet Vnus Pastor, id est, Christus: There shalbe One Shephearde, that is to saie, (not the Pope, but) ( Christe.) Neither is M. Hardinge hable to shewe vs any Learned allowed Inter­preter, Olde, or Newe, that hathe expounded this place otherwise.

Al these thinges notwithstandinge, as wel these woordes of Christe, as also the other of the Prophete Osee, M. Hardinge applieth onely to the Pope. The Pope muste be the Heade: The Pope muste be the Shephearde. Bothe Christe, and Osee Prophesied these thinges of the Glorie, and Kingdome of the Pope. Iuda and Is­rael shal chuse Christe to be theire Heade: Al the Faitheful through the worlde are one Flocke, and Christe is the Shephearde: Ergo, the Pope is the General Heade of the Vniuersal Churche of God.

Sutche Logique M. Hardinge is hable to teache vs: and with sutche feare, and reuerence can he vse Goddes Holy Woorde. S [...]e [...]on. Trāquil. in Caligula. And like as the Emperour Caligula sometimes tooke of the Heade of his greate God Iuppiter, and set on an other Head of his owne: Euen so by these Interpretations, and Gloses, M. Hardinge smiteth of Christe, the Onely Heade of the Churche, and setteth on the Pope. For Io­hannes de Parisijs (out of whom, or somme other the like, he hathe borowed this whole mater) nothinge doubteth to telle vs, that Christe is not, nor cannot be the Heade of this Body, Iohan. De Pari­si [...]s, de potestate Regia, & Pa­pal [...], Cap. 3. or the Shephearde of this Flocke. And, leste M. Hardinge should charge me with vntrue reporte, his woordes be these: Congregabūtur Filij Iu­da, & Filij Israel, vt ponāt sibi Caput Vnum: Et Iohan. 10. Fiet Vnū Ouile, & Vnus Pastor. Quod quidē de Christo intelligi nō potest: sed de alio aliquo Ministro, qui praesit loco eius: The Children of Juda, and the Children of Isral shal assemble togeather, to appointe vnto them selues One Heade: And in the tenthe of Iohn, There shalbe made One Folde, and One Shep­hearde: Whiche thinge doubtelesse cannot be expounded of Christe: but muste be taken of some other Minister, that maye rule in his steede.

Thus wée are taught, that Christe is neither the Heade of his owne Body, the Churche: nor the Shephearde of his owne Flocke, but onely the Pope. And yet Chrysostome saithe, Qui non vtitur Sacra Scriptura, sed ascendit aliunde, id est, non concessa via, Chrysost. in Io­han. Honal. 58. hic non Pastor est, sed Fur: VVho so euer vseth not the Holy Scripture, but com­meth [...] an other waie that is not lawful, (whiche is by False Gloses, and Corruptions) he is not the Shephearde of the Flocke: he is the Theefe.

So saithe S. Augustine, Augusti. Contra Donatist. Lib. 6. 1. Q. 3. Vocantur Cane [...]. Ipsum characterem multi & Lupi, & Lupis imprimunt: The note, or marke of a Bishop many geue vnto Wolues, and be VVolues them selues.

M. Hardinge saithe farther: For as mutche as Christe is Ascendedinto Heauen, [Page 103] and is nowe nomore conuersante emongst vs in Visible Forme, Feede my Sheepe. as he was before, it behooued some one man to be put in Commission for bearinge the charge, and takinge care of the whole Churche. Therefore he saide vnto Peter, Feede my Flocke: Confirme thy Brethren. Firste, what Ancient Learned Father euer thus scanned the woordes of the Popes Commission? Or why dothe M. Har­dinge auouche so greate a mater of him selfe onely, without farther Authoritie? And if this so large Commission be to Feede, & to Feede so many, why then doothe the Pope Féede so litle? Or rather, why Feedeth he nothinge at al? Or howe can he claime by Féedinge, that neuer Feedeth?

Againe, where learned M Hardinge to reason thus: Christe is Ascended into Heauen: Ergo, the Pope is Heade of the whole Worlde? Or thus, Christe saide to Peter, Feede my Flocke: Ergo, the Pope hath Vniuersal Power ouer the whole Churche of God? How can he make these Argumentes to holde, I wil not saie by Diuinitie, but by any reasonable shifte of Logique?

But ye saie, God speaketh not nowe vnto vs mouthe to mouthe: nor sendeth vs downe his Angels from Heauen: nor instructeth vs nowe by Visions, as he did o­thers in Olde times. What of that? wil it therefore folowe, that al the worlde muste geue eare to the Pope? Nay, M. Hardinge, Chrysostome saithe mutche better: Chrysost. In Ge­nesin, Homil. 2. Bicause God speaketh not nowe vnto vs in sutche familiare sorte, Ergo, Suam erga Homines amicitiam innouare volens, quasi longè absentibus literas mittit, conciliaturus sibi Vniuersam hominum Naturam: Therefore God mindinge to renewe his fauour to wardes Man, sente (his Holy Scriptures, as it were) his Letters, thereby to reconcile to him selfe al Mankinde. God speaketh not nowe vnto vs by his Angels: but he hath already spoken vnto vs, Hebrae. 1. as S. Paule saithe, Cala. 1. by the mouthe, and presence of his Onely Sonne. And therefore he saithe againe, Yf an Angel from Heauen woulde nowe Preache vnto vs otherwise, then wee haue receiued, wée shoulde holde him accursed.

But for the Vnitie, and quiet gouernmente of the Churche of God, S. Paule saithe, Ephes. 4. Christe Ascendinge aboue al the Heauens, hathe geuen ( not One Vniuersal Pope to rule the whole, but) some Apostles, some prophetes, some Euangelistes, some Pastours, some Doctours, for the perfitinge of the Sainctes, for the woorke of the Ministerie, for the buildinge vp of the Body of Christe, that wee maye al comme into the Ʋnitie of Faithe, and of the knowledge of the Sonne of God. By these meanes God thought it sufficient, to preserue his Churche in Vnitie, and neuer made mention of One Vniuersal Pope.

Therefore S. Cyprian saithe, Cyprian. De Simplicit. Praelato­rum. Vnus est Episcopatus, cuius à singulis in solidum pars tenetur: There is but One Bishoprike, parte whereof of euery seueral Bishop is holden in whole. And againe, Ideò plures sunt in Ecclesia Sacerdotes, vt, vno Haeresim facien­te, coeteri subueniant: Therefore are there many Bishoppes in the Churche, that if one fal into Heresie, Cyprian. Lib. 3. the reste maye healpe. Epist 13. Thus, when Peter walked not vprightly to the Gospel, Galat. 2. Paule came with healpe, Euseb. li. 5. ca. 26. and reproued him openly euen to his face: Augusti. Episto. 28. Thus Irenaeus reprooued Pope Victor: thus sundrie godly Fathers haue reprooued o­thers. Therefore S. Augustine saithe, Deus docuit Petrum per posteriorem Pau­lum. A quocunque enim Verum dicitur, illo donante, dicitur, qui est ipsa Veritas: Thus God instructed Peter by Paule his p [...]n [...]e, that was called after him. For by whom so euer the Truthe is spoken, it is spoken by his gifte, that is Truthe it selfe.

Ye saye, the Pope succedeth not Christe in al his Substance, y ^t is to saie, in al his Power: In Concil. Late­ran. sub Iulio. neither hath there any sutche fonde sayinge benne vttered (saie you) at any time by the Diuines. Yf this be true, wherefore then be these woordes written, and so wel allowed of in the Councel of Laterane, In Concil. Late­ranen. sub Leone, In Oratione Stephani Patra­censis. Tibi data est Omnis Potestas, in Coelo, & in Terra? Vnto your Holinesse al Power is geuen, as wel in Heeuen, as in Earth. Wherefore is Bernarde so wel allowed to force the same farther with these woordes: Qui totum dedit, nihil excludit: He that hath geuē thee Al, hath excepted No­thinge. [Page 104] Wherefore is Panormitane allowed to saie, To Fore­sake the Pope. Papa potest omnia, quae Deus ipse potest? The Pope is hable by his power to doo, what so euer God him selfe can doo.

For the reste, Panormitan. De Electio. Ca. Li­cet. M. Hardinge saithe, One Kinge is hable to rule One Kinge­dome: Ergo, One Pope is hable to rule the whole Churche. This Reason is very simple, and is answeared before. Of the gouernmente of Princes wée haue dayly Practise: But of Popes, that euer exercised this Vniuersal Dominion ouer the whole Churche of God, M. Hardinge is not hable to shewe vs one. Wel were it with him, if he were but a Member of Christes Body, and a Sheepe of his Flocke. S. Gregorie saide sometime to Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople, claiminge vnto him selfe the same Title, and thinkinge him selfe hable yenough to rule the whole, Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 38. Quid tu Christo Vniuersalis Ecclesiae Capiti in Extremi Iudicij responsurus es examine, qui cuncta eius Membra tibimet conaris Vniuersalis appellatione supponere? What answeare wilt thou make in the trial of the Laste Iudgemente, vnto Christe the Head of his Vniuersal Churche, that thus by the name of Vniuersal Pishop, seekest to bringe vnder thee al the Members of his Body?

Laste of al, M. Harding concludeth without premisses: Who so euer wil not be ruled by this Shepheard, the Pope, is of the Hearde of Antichriste. So saithe one of the Popes hired Proctours: De Maiorlt. & Obedient, Vnam Sanct. In Gloss. Quicquid Saluatur, est sub Summo Pontifice: VVhat so euer Soule is saued, it is vnder the Pope. This one thinge beinge graunted, M. Har­dinges whole cause passeth cleare.

But, God be thanked, it appeareth already to al them, that haue eles to see, that wee haue not departed from the seruile Obedience of that See, but vpon iuste cause, and good aduise. And in sutche sorte the Pope him selfe wil not denie, but it is lawful for any Churche to dissente from the Churche of Rome. These he his woordes, Dist. 12. Non. decet. whiche muste be holden for a Lawe: Quicquid sine discretione Iustitiae con­tra Romanae Ecclesiae Disciplinā actum fuerit, ratum haberi nulla ratio permittit: VVhat so euer thinge is donne without discretion of Iustice, againste the Order of the Churche of Rome, it maye not by any meanes be allowed. By whiche woordes it appeareth, Ex contrario Sensu, By an Argument of the contrarie, that, what so euer is donne by discretion of Iustice, notwithstandinge it be against the Order of the Churche of Rome, yet ought it to wel allowed.

S. Augustine saithe, August. De Vni­tate Eccle. Ca­tholica, Ca. 10. Ne Catholicis quidem Episcopis consentiendum est, sicubi fortè falluntur, vt contra Canonicas Scripturas aliquid sentiant: VVee maye not geue our consente vnto any Bishoppes, be they neuer so Catholique, if they happen to be deceiued, and to determine centrarie to the Scriptures.

And Pope Pius. Abbas Vrsper. Pag. 443. 2 him selfe saithe, Resistendum est quibuscunque in faciem, siue Paulus, siue Petrus sit, qui ad Veritatem non ambulat Euangelij: VVee are bounde to withstande any man to the face, be it Peter, be it Pause, yf be walke not to the Truthe of the Gospel.

To conclude, where the Woulfe is broken in, it is beste for the poore Sheepe, to breake out. That the Woulfe was broken in, beside the cruel spoile, and ra­ueninge of Christian Bloude, it is plaine by the woordes of S. Bernarde. For thus he speaketh thereof in Open Councel, & in the presence of sundrie Bishoppes: Non custodiunt Gregem Domini, Bernardus in Concil. Remen. In eodem Con­cilio. Numer. 16. ses mactant, & deuorant: They keepe not the Lordes Flocke: but they kille it, and deuoure it. Againe he saithe, Propterea relinqua­mus istos, quia non sunt Pastores, sed Traditores: Therefore set vs leaue them: For they are not Postours, but Traitours. And therefore God thus warneth vs in the like case: Exite de medio horum hominum, ne cum illis pereatis: Goe foorthe from the middes of those Menne, leste perishe al togeather.

M. Hardinge.

Power is double, Peters Povver Or­dinarie. The Apo­stles povver Extraordi­narie. Peter is the Shepheard: The Apo­stles are the Sheepe. Manifest, and mere Vntruthes. the one Ordinary, the other by priuilege or Extraordinary. Ordinary Power is that whiche contineweth in one and the same course for euer. Accordinge to whiche Power Pe­ter was Head of the Churche, and his Successours after him. Power by Priuilege, or Extraordi­nary is that whiche is geuen besides the common course by waie of dispensation. As where the o­ther Apostles shoulde haue receiued Ordinarely theire Power from Peter, as who had commission ouer al, bothe Lambes and Sheepe, amonge whome the Apostles had theire place: Chrisie by special grace preuenteth ordinarie course, and maketh them for the time, and in their Persons equal with Peter in the office of Apostleship. Thus concerninge ordinarie Power, Peter is Head of the Apo­stles, and by that reason they are subiecte vnto him, as Sheepe vnto their Shepheard. But by Pri­uilege true it is, as S. Cyprian saithe, They were of like power amonge them selues. Peter hath Povver to him, and to his Heires for euer: The Apo­stles haue Povver one­ly for terme of Life. Nowe what oddes there is berwixt an Ordinarie auctoritie of iudginge geuen to any Officer, for him selfe, and his Successours in that Office for euer, and a special Commission for life time onely: so mutche is berwixte Peter and the reste of the Apostles.

The B. of Sarisburie.

S. Cyprians woordes be plaine: Hoc erant vtique & Coeteri Apostoli, quod fuit Petrus, Cyprian. De Simplicita. Prae­latorum. pari consortio praediti & Honoris, & Potestatis, Sed exordium ab Vnitate profi­ciscitur, vt Ecclesia vna monstretur: The reste of the Apostles were the same, that Peter was, al endewed with one felowship bothe of Honour, and of Power. Yet the Beginninge is taken of One, to shewe, that the Churche is One. But al these woordes, [...]e they ne­uer so plaine, are soone shifted by a Prety Distinction, sutche as neither S. Cy­prian, nor any other Learned Father, or Doctour euer knewe.

Wée are taught here to vnderstande, that there are twoo Powers: The one Ordinarie, the other Ertraordinarie. By Ordinarie Power, saithe M. Harindge, that is the saie, by Order, and of Common Course, Peter appointed al the reste of the Apostles, and gaue them Authoritie. And Christe also likewise gaue them Authoritie, but by Extraordinarie Power, that is to sate, bistoes Order, and out of Course. Or, to vtter the mater in plainer wise, Peter gaue power to the Apostles by his Vsual Authoritie, and by dowe fourme of Lawe: But Christe gaue them Power, as M. Hardinge saithe, Onely for the time, and by waie of Dispen­sation, and bisides the Lawe. And thus Peter is the Ordinarie Heade of the A­postles: Christe is theire Head too, how be it, not in like sorte, but Extraordinarie. For, as touchinge Order of gouernmente, Peter is the Shephearde, and the A­postles are the Sheepe. Al other the Apostles holde theire Power, as by Copie, for terme of Life: Peter onely holdeth the same in Fée Simple, to him, and to his Heires for euer.

And, good Christian Reader, least thou shouldest thinke, I haue in scorne, and willfully wreasted M. Hardinges woordes, whiche otherwise might be vttered by him in some sober meaninge: maye it please thée by these fewe to consider, what certaine others of that side haue vttered, and published, touchinge the same.

Petrus de Palude saithe thus: Petrus de Palude De Potestae. A­postolor. Ar. 2. Petr. de Palade In eodem Arti. Dico▪ quòd nullus Apostolorum, praeter Perrum, factus est à Christo Episcopus: I saie, that none of the Apostles, sauinge onely Peter, was made Bishop by Christe. And againe, Videretur, in Nouo Testamento, quòd alij Apo­stoli à Christo Nullam Potestatem Iurisdictionis receperunt: & per consequens relingui­tur, quòd Omnis Potestas Iurisdictionis, quam habuerunt Apostoli, Specialiter post [Page 106] Christi Ascensum, fuit collata eis à Petro: It woulde appeare, that in the Newe Testa­ment the reste of the Apostles receiued no manner Power of Jurisdiction at Christes hādes: and so consequently it foloweth, that al the Power of Jurisdiction, that the Apostles had, spe­cially after Christes Ascension, was geuen vnto them by Peter. Againe, he imagineth God the Father thus to saie vnto Christe: Petr. de Palude In eodem Cap. Petr. de Palude De Potestate Cu­rator. Ar. 6. Constitues eos Principes, non per te, sed per tuum Vicarium: Thou shalte make the Apostles gouernours ouer al the Earth, not by thee selfe, but by Peter thy Vicare. And againe, Paulus, & alij Apostoli à Petro, non debuerunt praedicare in Ecclesia specialiter Petro commissa, nisi de eius licentia. Vnde à Christo habuerunt idoneitatem: à Petro autem Authoritatem: Paule, and the other A­postles mighte not Preache in the Churche committed vnto Pet [...]r, but with Peters Licence. For of Christe they had onely Habilitie: but of Peter they receiued Authoritie.

In like manner writeth Pope Nicolas, Extra. De Elect. & Electi po­test. Fundamēta. Petrum in Consortium Indiuiduae Tri­nitatis assumptum, id, quod ipse erat, Dominus voluit nominari: Our Lorde tooke Peter into the Felowship of the Holy Trinitie, and would haue him called the same, that he was him selfe.

By sutche Amplifications, and outrage in speache, it woulde appeare, Christe were Peters Vicare: and not Peter Vicare vnto Christe. In this Sense, and mea­ninge M. Hardinge séemeth to saie, that by Ordinarie, and common Course of Lawe, the Apostles had al theire Power, not from Christe, but onely from Peter.

But here M. Hardinge vnwares falleth into a marueilous inconuenience. For, these thinges thus graunted, it muste néedes folowe, that duringe the time of Christes aboade in Earthe, the Apostles had no manner Ordinarie Power at al: neither to Preache, nor to Baptize, nor to Binde, nor to Loose. For Heruaeus a Doctour of M. Hardinges side saithe thus, Hernaeus, De Po­testate Papae, Ca. 21. Sciendum, quòd, cùm Christus conuer­sabatur cum hominibus, non fuit alius Papa praeter ipsum: nec Petrus tunc habuit pote­statem Papalem: Wee muste vnderstande, that while Christe was conuersante emongst menne in Earthe, there was none other Pope, but be alone: Neither then had Peter the Popes Authoritie.

So likewise saithe Petrus de Palude: Petr. de Palude De Potesta. A po­stolorwn. Non decebat esse simul, nisi Vnum Sum­mum Pontificem. Vnde, Christo Ascensuro, debuit Petrus fieri Episcopus Summus, & non anteà: It was not meete there shoulde be more then one Highest Bishop at one time. Therefore, when Christe was ready to Ascende into Heaven, it was conuenient to make Peter the Highest Bishop, and not before.

For so longe time, Christe coulde not geue his Apostles any Ordinarie Au­thoritie: for M. Hardinge telleth vs, that his Power herein was Onely Ertraor­dinarie: Of the other side, Peter coulde geue them none: for as Heruaeus, and Pa­ladensis saie, Vntil Christes Ascension he was not Pope.

But to leaue these vaine Fantasies, not woorth the hearinge, S. Paule wil soone remooue al these doubtes. Gala. 1. Thus he writeth of him selfe: Paule the Apostle, not of Menne, nor appointed by Menne, but by Jesus Christe, and God the Father. And S. Chrysostome hereof writeth thus, Chrysost in Epis. ad Galat. Ca. 2. Paulus nihil opus habebat Petro, nec illius egebat voce: sed Honore Par erat illi. Nihil enim hic dicam amplius: Paule had no man­ner lacke of Peter: nor stoode in neede of his voice, or allowance: but in Honour was his Fe­lowe. For I wil here saie no more. His meaninge is, He was his better.

Howe be it, what néede woordes? Set contention aparte: the case is cleare. For it was not Peter, that breathed ouer the Apostles: It was not Peter, that saide vnto them, Iohn. 20. Marke. 16. Goe to the loste Sheepe of the house of Israel: Receiue the Holy Ghoste: Goe into al the Worlde, and Preache the Gospel. Al this Power was geuen them by Christe alone, and not by Peter.

Nowe, where as M. Hardinge teacheth vs, that Peter was the Shephearde, and the Apostles the Sheepe, makinge them al as mutche inferiour vnto Peter, as [Page 107] the Shéepe is inferiour vnto the Shepheard, The o­ther Apo­stles equal vvith Pe­ter. S. Hierome saithe, Dices, Super Pe­trum fundatur Ecclesia: Licerid ipsum in alio loco super Omnes Apostolos fiat, & cun­cti claues Regni Coelorum accipiant, & Ex Aequo super eos Ecclesiae fortitudo soli­detur: Ye wil saye, The Churche is founded vpon Peter. Notwithstandinge in an other place the same thinge is donne vpon al the Apostles: and al receiue the keies of the Kingdome of Heauen: Hierony. Aduer. Ioui [...]tan. Li 1. Origen. in Mat­thae. Tracta. 1. and the strengthe of the Churche is founded Equally vpon them al. Likewise the Learned Father Origen saithe, Quòd si super vnum illum Petrum tantùm existi­mas aedisicari toram Ecclesiam, quid dicturus es de Iohanne Filio Tonitrui, & Apostolo­rum vnoquoque? Yf thou thinke, the whole Churche was builded onely vpon Peter, what wilt thou then saie of Iohn the Sonne of the Thunder, and of euery of the Apostles? There­fore S. Chrysostome of Peter saithe thus: Chrysost. in Mat­thae. Homil. 83. Duplex crimen erat: ium quia repugna­uit, tum quia coeteris seipsum praeposuit: Peter was in double faulte: bothe for that he withstoode Christe, and also for that he set him selfe before the reste. S. Augustine ma­keth Peter Felowe, and Equal with the other Apostles: Inter se concorditer vixe­runt Petrus, August. Epist. 86 & Condiscipuli eius: Peter and his Felowes liued agreeably togeather. And againe, Christus sine personarum acceptione hoc dedit Paulo, vt Ministraret Gentibus, quod etiam Petro dederat, August. in Epist. Ad Galat. Ca. 2. vt Ministraret Iudaeis: Christe without any choise of Personnes, gaue the same (Authoritie) to Paule, to Minister emongst the Heathens, that he gaue to Pe­ter, to Minister emongst the Iewes. And the very Ordinarie Glose geoeth these woordes to S. Paule: Non didici ab. alijs, tanquam à Maioribus: sed contuli cū illis, tan­quam cum amicis, Gloss. Galat. 2. & Paribus: I learned not of (Peter, and) others, as of my betters: but I had conference with them, as with my Equalles, and Frendes. Likewise Paule him selfe saithe, Iacobus, Petrus, Iohannes, qui videbantur Columnae esse, dextras dederunt mihi, Gala. 2. & Barnabae Societatis: James, Peter, and John, that seemed to be the Pillers, gaue vn­to me, and Barnabas the righte handes of Felowship: Whiche the Glose expoundeth thus, Societatis, id est, Aequalitatis: Of Felowship, that is to saye, of Equalitie.

Therefore, notwithstandinge M. Hardinges Ordinarie, and Extraordinarie Distinctions, S. Cyprians woordes are plaine, and true, The reste of the Apostles were euen the same (in Authoritie) that Peter was, al end [...]wed with One Felowship, bothe of Honoure, and of Power.

M. Hardinge.

Wee denie, that it was saide indifferently to them al, Feede ye. Yea, or that it was saide at al, Feede ye. Vntruthe most vaine, and mani­fest. To Peter and none els was it saide, Feede my Lambes, Feede my Sheepe. Iohn. 21. VVhiche Woorde of Feedinge so singularly spoken to Peter in the presence of the other Apostles, prooueth, that it was not indifferently saide to al, Feede ye. That they were sente into the whole VVorlde, and that they were commaunded to teache, Marke. 16. and in that respect also to Feede, wee confesse vnder the di­stinction of Ordinarie and Extraordinarie Power before mentioned.

The B. of Sarisburie.

It forceth not greately, what M. Hardinge denie, or graunte, hauinge neither Reason, nor Authoritie, but onely his owne. But if Power were not geuen in­differently to al the Apostles, tel vs then, wherein is the oddes? What had Peter more? What had the others lesse? Or what Olde Doctour, or Learned Father e­uer sawe this Difference?

Christe saide equally vnto them al, Rece [...] the Holy Ghoste: Whose Sinnes yee [Page 108] forge [...]ue, they are forgeeuen: Goe into the whole Worlde: Preache the Gospel to euery Cre­ature. These woordes perteine equally vnto al. Peter had nomore the Holy Ghost, nomore Power to forgéeue Sinnes, nomore Commission to goe into the whole Worlde, nomore Authoritie to Preache the Gospel, then others had.

M. Hardinge saithe, To the reste of the Apostles it was not saide at al, Feede ye. Iohn. 21. Marc. 13. To Peter, and to none els, was it saide, Feede my Lambes: Feede my Sheepe. Yet Christe him selfe saithe, Quod Vni dico, Omnibus dico: That I saie to One, I saie to Al. Hierony. contra Jouinian. Li. 1. 1. Cor. 3. And S. Hierome saithe, as it is before alleged, Al the Apostles receiued the Keies of the Kingedome of Heauen: and the strength of the Churche was builte Equally vpon them al. S. Paule saithe: What is Peter, what is Paule, but the Ministers of Christe, through whome ye haue beleeued? Paule hath planted: Apollo hath watered. He that planteth, Chryso. in Epist. Ad Gala. Ca. 1. is nothinge: He that watreth, is nothinge. Chrysostome saithe: Angeli, quamliber magni, tamen Serui sunt, ac Ministri: The Angels of God, be they neuer so greate, yet are they but Seruantes, and Ministers. Therefore, to conclude, he saithe: Ne Paulo quidem obedire Oportet, Chrysosto. in E­pist. Ad Timoth. 2. Homi. 2. si quid proprium dixerit, si quid humanum: sed A­postolo Christum in se loquentem circumferenti: Wee maye not beleeue Paule him selfe, if he speake any thinge of his owne, or of worldly reason: but wee muste beleeue the Apostle bearinge aboute Christe speakinge within him.

M. Hardinge.

The Interpreter, not without the wil and aduise of this Defender, hath altered the Sense of the Latine, Vntruthe: Reade the Ansvveare. as the Authour of the Latine hath altered the woordes of S. Hierome. For neither spea­keth S. Hierome of Bishoppes in the plural number, neither saithe the Latine Apologie, that the Bi­shoppes be al of like Preeminence, whiche this Translation hath, but of the same Merite, and of the same Priesthood. VVith the woorde Preeminence guilefully shifted into the sentence in place of this woorde Merite, these false players thought to winne the Game. That is, that al Bishoppes, after the minde of S. Hierome be of like Preeminence, and so that al be of like Power, and auctoritie▪ and none aboue other.

Concerninge the place alleged, Hieromes place discussed. S. Hierome in an Epistle to Euagrius speakinge against that, a particular custome of the Churche of Rome shoulde Preiudicate the Auctoritie of the whole worlde, in preferringe Deacons before Priestes, compareth Bishoppes of great Cities and litle Townes togea­ther, and saithe, that as touchinge the Honour, Dignitie, and Power of Bishoply Order and Office. and of Priesthood, as good and as greate a Bishop in that respect is the One, as the other: and that the Bishop of Eugubium, and Rhegium, two litle Townes in Italie, and of Thebes an other litle Towne in Egypte, are Bishoppes and Priestes, and haue as greate This vvas no parte of the questiō. Merite in regarde of any their Ver­tues, and as greate Power concerninge the order of Priesthood, as the Bishoppes of Rome, of Con­stantinople, of Alexandria. Yet as touchinge Power and Auctoritie of regiment, the Patriarkes of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antiochia be aboue Bishoppes of other Dioceses, and the Bishop of Rome Peters Successour is Vntruth: For the B. of Rome is equal vvith the other foure Pa­triarkes, as shal ap­peare. aboue al. For we beinge many are one Body in Christe, and euery man a­monge our selues one an others members. This knotte requireth a mutual consent of the whole Bod [...]e, but chiefly the concorde of Priestes: Epist. 84. Amonge Bi­shoppes is diffe­rence of Povver vvith likenesse of Honour. amonge whome although dignitie be not common to them al, yet order is general, as Leo writeth. For euen among the moste Blessed Apostles (saithe he) in likenesse of Honour there was oddes of Power. And whereas the Election of them al was equal, yet to One was it geuen to be ouer the reste. Out of whiche platte rose the distinction also of Bishoppes, and with [Page 109] greate Prouidence it hath benne disposed, Equalitie of Bi­shoppes. that al shoulde not take al vpon them, but that in euery prouince there shoulde be one, who might firste geue his sentence amonge his brethren: and againe that in the greate Citties some shoulde be ordeined for takinge vpon them matters of greater care, through whome the charge of the vniuersal Churche shoulde haue course to the one see of Peter, and that nothinge shoulde euer dissent from the Head.

Howe greate, and Honorable so euer the roume is, that any Bishop is placed in, be he Archbishop, Metropolitane, Primat, Patriarke, or Pope himselfe: He is nomore a Bishop, then any other of those, who occupie the lowest roume. The diuersitie bitvveene Bi­shops, vvherein it consisteth. The diuersitie consisteth in this, that they are called to parte of charge in sundry proportions, as the Bishoprikes are greater or lesser: the Pope hath committed vnto him Vntruth: For Christe neuer gaue the Pope a­ny sutche charge. the charge of the whole Folde of Christe, and hath the fulnes of Power. For if al were of like Power, as these Defenders teache, Vnitie coulde not be mainteined. VVherefore Vntruth: For Christe neuer gaue sutche or­der. by very order of Christe himselfe it hath benne ordeined, that maters touchinge Faith and Religion; at least sutche as be weighty, be referred to that one Prince of Pastours, who sitteth in the chaire of Peter, the Highest Bishop, whiche hath Vntruth: For it hath not alvvaies benne ob­serued. alwaies benne done and obserued from the Apostles time to our daies by Ca­tholikes, and not seldom also by Heretikes.

The sentence that this Defender alleageth out of S. Cyprian, it seemeth he vnderstoode it not. Ye saie, that a piece of that one Bishoprike is perfitly and wholy holden of euery particular Bi­shop. But what meane ye by that? If by this woorde, In solidum, perfitly and wholy holden, ye meane, that euery particular Bishop without is a Bishop dependinge of any other, then ye speake against the woordes yee bringe out of S. Cyprian. De Simplicitate Praelatorum. VVho saithe, that as there are many beames of one Sunne, many boughes of one roote▪ many Riuers of one Fountaine: so there are many Bishoppes of one Bishoprike. Therefore this Bishoprike is vnto particular Bishoppes, as the Sunne, as the Roote, as the Fountaine. Vatruth, impudente aboue mea­sure. VVhat the Fountaine, roote, and Sunne of this Bishoprike is, S. Cyprian declareth a litle before, she winge that it was saide to Peter, To thee I wil geue the ketes of the King­dome of Heauen. And, Feede my sheepe.

The B. of Sarisburie.

Here M. Hardinge chargeth vs with twoo of his owne common faultes: First with Corruption: nexte with Ignorance. With Corruption, in the woordes, and sense of S. Hierome: with Ignorance, in the place of S. Cyprian. But if wee be hable sufficiently, and truely to answeare bothe, I truste, M. Hardinge shal haue no great cause, mutche to vaunte him selfe, either of his plaine dealinge herein, or of his knowledge.

And here, to dissemble these childishe causilati [...]ns of the altering of Numbers, the Singulare into the Plural: and of the changinge of this woorde, Merite, in­to this woorde, Preeminence: whiche greate faulte, if it were any, by M. Har­dinges owne Confession, proceeded onely from the Interpreter, and not from the Authour: I saie, to dissemble, and to passe by al these séely quarrels, what S. Hie­rome meante hereby, Erasmus a man of great Learninge, and iudgement, expoun­deth thus: [...]rasm, in Schol. in Epist. ad Eua­grium. Hieronymus aequare videtur omnes Episcopos inter se, perinde quasi omnes ex aequo Apostolis successerint. Nec putat vllum Episcopum alio minorem esse, quód sit humilior: aut Maiorem, quód sit Opulentior: Nam aequat Eugubiensem Episcopum cum Romano, Deinde non putat, Episcopum quouis Presbytero praestantiorem esse, nisi quód ius habeat Ordinandi: Hierome seemeth to matche al Bishoppes togeather, as if they were al equally the Apostles Successours. And he thinketh not any Bishop to be sesse then other, for that he is poorer: or greatter then other, for that he is richer. For he maketh the Bishop of Eugubium (a poore towne) equal with the Bishop of Rome. And farther he thinketh, that a Bishop is no better then any Prieste, sauinge that the Bishop hath Authoritie to Order Ministers.

But S. Hieromes woordes are plaine of them selfe, and haue no neede of o­ther Expositour. Hierony. ad E­uagrium. Thus he writeth: Quid facit, excepta Ordinatione, Episcopus, quod Presbyter non faciat? Nec altera Romanae Vibis Ecclesia, altera totius Orbis [Page 110] existimanda est. Et Galliae, & Britannia, & Aphrica, & Persis, & Oriens, & India, & Omnes Barbarae Nationes Vnum Christum adorant: vnam obseruant regulam Ve­ritatis. Si Authoritas quaeritur, Orbis maior est Vrbe. Vbicunque fuerit E­piscopus, siue Eugubij, siue Constantinopoli, siue Alexendriae, siue Tanai, eiusdem Meriti, eiusdem est Sacerdotij. Potentia diuitiarum, & paupertatis humilitas vel sub­limiorem, vel Inferiorem Episcopum non facit. Coeterùm omnes Apostolorum Suc­cessores sunt. Quid mihi profers Vnius Vrbis consuetudinem? What doothe a Bishop, sau [...]nge onely the Orderinge of Ministers, but a Prieste maye doo the same? Neither maye wee thinke that the Churche of Rome is one, and the Churche of al the worlde biside is another. Fraunce, Englande, Aphrica, Persia, Leu [...]nte, India, and al the Barbarous Nations woorship one Christe, and keepe one rule of the Truthe. If vvee seeke for Authoritie, The whole worlde is greater then the Cittie of Rome. Where so euer there be a Bishop, be it at Eugubium, be it at Rome, be it at Constantinople, be it at Rhe­gium, be it at Alexandria, be it at Tanais, they are al of one woorthinesse, they are al of one Bishoprike. The Power of the Richesse, and the basenesse of Pouertie, maketh not a Bishop either Higher, or Lower. For they are al the Apostles Successours. What bringe you me the Custome of Rome, beinge but one Cittie?

Nowe, if M. Hardinge wil steale awaie in the darke, as his manner is, and saie, that S. Hierome spake onely of the Merite of Life, or of the Office of Priest­hoode, sette some man telle him, that this was no parte, neither of the question mooued, nor of the answeare of S. Hierome: And S. Hierome in plaine, and expresse woordes saithe, Si Authoritas quaeritur, If vvee seeke (not for Merite of Life, but) for Authoritie in gouernmente, therein the whole worlde is greatte, then the Cittie of Rome. M. Hardinge imagineth, S. Hierome spake onely of, I knowe no what: but S. Hierome him selfe saithe, he speaketh namely of Authoritie.

And whereas M. Hardinge is so highly offended with the chaunginge of this woorde, Merite, into this woorde, Preeminence, and saithe farther, that these False Platers thought thereby to winne the game, it maye please him to remem­ber, that, howe so euer the game goe, S. Hierome him selfe plainely plaide the selfe same game: I meane, that S. Hierome vsinge this woorde, Merite, without question meante, Preeminence. For thus he saithe, Potentia Diuitiarum, & Pau­pertatis humilitas, vel Sublimiorem, vel Inferiorem Episcopum non facit: The Power of Richesse, and the basenesse of Pouertie maketh not a Bishop either Higher, or Lower. M. Hardinge mighte easily hauè seene, that Higher, and Lower, perteine not to Merite of Life, but to Preeminence. Therefore lette him looke better vpon his Booke, before he thus lightly condemne others for corruption.

I graunt, it is true, as M. Hardinge saithe, This quarrel first beganne aboute a particulare Custome of the Churche of Rome, where as the Dra [...]ons Vaunted them selues, and would be placed aboue the Priestes. But here M. Hardinge, as his manner is, willingly dissembleth, and suppresseth somewhat. S. Augustine more liuely, August. in quaes. veter. & Noui Testament. quae. 101. and fully expresseth the same. For thereof he writeth thus: Quidam, qui nomen liabet Falcidij, Duce stultitia, & Romanae Ciuitatis Iactantia, Leuîtas Sa­cerdotibus, & Diaconos Presbyteris coaequare contendit: One Falcidius, Foolishnesse, and the Pride of the Cittie of Rome leadinge him thereto, laboureth to make the Deacons Equal with the Priestes.

This lewde disorder S. Hierome controlleth by the Examples of other Churches, and saithe, that therein the Authoritie of the whole worlde is greatter, then the Authoritie of the Churche of Rome: Of whiche also he seemeth to speake scornefully, and with some disdeigne. For thus he saithe, Quid mihi profers V­nius Vrbis Consuerudinem? What bringe you me the Custome of (Rome, beinge but) [Page 111] One Cittie? By whiche woordes it seemeth, Pope Leo. he made smal accoumpte of the Cittie of Rome.

But M. Hardinge saithe, The Primates had Authoritie ouer other Inferiour Bishops I graunte: they had so. How be it, thei had it by agreemente, & Custome: But neither by Christe, nor by Peter or Paule, nor by any Kighte of Goddes Woorde. Hieronym. in E­pist. ad Titum. Cap. 1. S. Hierome saith, Nouerint Episcopi, se magis Consuetudine, quàm Dispo­fitionis Dominicae Veritate, Presbyteris esse Maiotes, & in cōmune debere Ecclesiam [...]e­gere: Let Bishoppes vnderstande, that they are aboue the Priestes, rather of Custome, the [...] of any Truthe, or Right of Christes Institution: and that they ought to rule the Churche al to­geather. And againe, Idem ergo est Presbyter, Hieronym. eod. loco. qui Episcopus: Etantequam Diaboli instinctustudia in Religione fierent, & diceretur in populis, Ego sum Pauli, Ego Apollo, Ego Cephae, Cōmuni Presbyterorum Consilio Ecclesiae gubernabantur: Therefore a Prieste, and a Bishop are bothe one thinge: And, before that by the inflaiminge of the Diuel, partes were taken in Religion, and these woordes were vttered emonge the people, I holde of Paule, I holde of Apollo, I holde of Peter, the Churches were gouerned by the Common Aduise of the Priestes. August. Epist. 19. S. Augustine saithe, Secundum honorum vocabula, quae iam Ecclesiae vsus obtinuit, Episcopatus Presbyterio maior est: The office of a Bishop is aboue the office of a Prieste, ( not by Authoritie of the Scrip­tuces, but) after the Names of Honour, whiche the Custome of the Churche hath nowe obteined.

As for Pope Leo, ff. Li. 2. De Iu­risdict. omnium Iudicum. his owne Authoritie in his owne cause cannot be greate. The Emperoure saithe, Nemo debet sibiius dicere: Noman maie minister Lowe vn­to him selfe. And it is noted thus in the Decrées, Papa non debet esse Iudex in cau­sa propria: The Pope maie not be iudge in his owne cause.

It is wel knowen, 16. q. 6. Consue­tudo: In Mar [...]gine. that the Pope hath sought for, and claimed this Vniuersal Authoritie these many hundred yeeres. Pope Innocentius was therefore reproo­ued of Pride, and worldly Lordlinesse by the whole Councel of Aphrica: Concil. Aphri­ca. Ca. 105. Su­perbum saeculi typhum. Inter Decretaé Bonifacij 2. Pope Bo­nifacius 2. condemned [...]. Augustine, & al the saide whole Councel of Aphrica, & called them al Heretiques, and Schismatiques, for the same, and said, they were al Instigante Diabolo. Leo Epist. 89. leadde by the Diuel: Pope Zosimus, to mainteine this claime, corrupted the Holy Councel of Nice: S. Hilarie, and other Learned Bishoppes of France, for vsurpinge sutche vnlawful Authoritie, charged this same Pape Leo, of whom we speake, with Pride, and Ambition.

But, gentle Reader, that thou ma [...]ste the better vnderstande, what credite thou oughtest to geue to this Pope Leo, specially settinge foorthe his owne Au­thoritie, I beséethe thée, consider, with what Maiestie of woordes, and howe far aboue measure, he auanceth the Authoritie of S. Peter. These be his woordes: Christus Petrum in Consortium Indiuiduae Vnitatis assumpsit: Christe receiued Peter in­to the Companie of the Indiuisible Vnitie: Leo Epist. 89. Leo Epist. 52. Leo Epist. 89. Leo in cadem Epist. Authoritate Domini mei Petri Apostoli: By the Authoritie (not of Christe, but) of my Lorde Peter the Apostle: Deo Inspirante, & Beatissimo Petro Apostolo: By the Inspiration of God, and of S. Peter the Apostle: Deus à Petro, velut à quodam Capite, dona sua velut in Corpus omne diffudit: God frō Peter, as from the Heade, Leo in Sermo. De Natali Petri & Pauli. hath powred cut his giftes into al the Body: Nihil erit ligatum, aut so­lutum, nisi quod Petrus ligauerit, aut soluerit: There shalbe nothinge bounde, or loosed, but that Peter shal binde, or loose: Nunc quoque Petrus pascit Oues, & mandatum Domini Pius Pastor exequitur: Leo in Sermo. 3. In Anniucrsario die Assumptionis. Euen nowe Peter feedeth the Sheepe, and as a Godly Shephearde, he fulfilleth the commoundement of his Maister. Sutche immoderate, and ambitious Dignitie Leo was contente to yeelde to Peter, to thende that the pos­session, and fruite thereof might redounde whelely vnto him selfe.

Some others haue thought, that as wel these Epistles of Leo, as also others [Page 112] moe, Equalitie of Bi­shoppes. of other the Ancient Bishoppes of Rome, haue benne interlaced, and falsi­fied by the ambitious Popes, that folowed afterwarde. Whiche thinge is the more likely, Epist. Iulij 1. Extra De Elect. Fundamenta. Concil Aphrica. Cap. 105. Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 36. bothe for that the selfe same woordes be likewise alleged, partely vn­der the name of Pope Iulius, partely vnder the name of Pope Nicolas: and also for that Pope Zosimus, whiche was the fifthe before Leo, as it is saide before, doubted not for an aduantage to falsifie the Holy Councel of Nice.

Verily, when the Councel of Chalcedon had offered vnto this same Leo the Title of Vniversal Bishop, as Gregorie witnesseth, he vtterly refused it, and woulde none of it.

Nowe touchinge that S. Hierome saithe, the poore Bishop of Eugubium, and the Bishop of Rome are bothe of one Authoritie (For of Authoritie he spea­keth, Cyprian. Lib. 1. Epist. 3. Nisi paucis de­speratis, & per­ditis. as it is prooued before): S. Cyrian also saithe the same, that the Authori­tie of the Bishoppes in Aphrica is as good, as the Authoritie of the Bishop of Rome: and calleth them al Lewd, and Desperate Personnes, that wil, as M. Har­dinge doothe, safe the contrarie.

Therefore, whereas M. Hardinge saithe, By very Order of Christe him selfe it hath benne Ordeined, that maters touchinge Faithe, and Religion be referred to that One Prince of Pastours, who sitteth in the Chaire of Peter, the Highest Bishop, and that the same hath alwaies benne donne, and obserued from the A­postles time vntil our daies: He bringeth vs twoo manifest Vntruthes togeather, without any manner proufe at al, onely auouched vpon him selfe. For it appea­reth not, that Christe euer tooke this Order, or euer made any sutche mention, ei­ther of any sutche Prince of Pastours, or of Peters Chaire. And in the Coun­cel of Aphrica it was decreed, that no maters shoulde be remooued from thence to Rome. Concil. Aphri­can. Cap. 92. The woordes of the Councel are these, Ad transmarina Iudicia qui pu [...]a­uerit appellandum, à nullo intra Aphricam in Communionem suscipiatur: Who so euer shal thinke be ought to appeale to the Judgementes beyond the Seas (that is, to the Bishop of Rome) let no man within Aphrica receiue him to the Communion.

Touchinge that M. Hardinge calleth the Pope the Prince of Pastours, he mighte haue remembred, that the righte of this name belongeth onely vnto Christe. 1. Petr. 5. S. Peter saithe, That when Christe, the Prince of Pastours shal appeare, ye maie receiue the Vncorruptible Crowne. Nowe, to infea [...]fe the P [...]pe with Christes peculiare Titles, a man mighte thinke it were greate blasphemie. Certainely S. Cyprian saithe, In Concil. Car­thaginen. Concil. Constan­tinop. 2. Ca. 36. [...]. Cyprian. De Simpl. Praelator. Nemo nostrum Episcopum se esse Episcoporum consti­tuit: None of vs appointeth him selfe Bishop of Bishoppes: mutche lesse the Prince of al Pastours. And in the Councel of Constantinople it was Decreed, that the Bishop there shoulde haue Euen, and Equal Authoritie with the Bishop of Rome.

As for the other Authoritie of S. Cyprian, M. Hardinge saithe, wée vnder­stoode it not: and therefore he willeth vs, to looke better vpon our Bookes. The counsel is good. But if M. Hardinge wil graunte, that S. Cyprian him selfe knew, what he him selfe wrote, and vnderstoode his owne meaninge, it shalbe suf­ficient. Verily the woordes that he vseth, séeme not so darke. For thus he writeth: Episcopatus Vnus est, cuius à singulis in solidum pars tenetur: Ecclesia Vna est, quae in multiudinem lati [...]s incremento Foecunditatis ex [...]enditur: Quomodò Solis multi radij, sed lumen Vnum: & ramiarboris multi, sed robur Vnum: The Bishoprike is One, a parte whereof of euery seueral Bishop is possessed in whole. The Churche is One, whiche by her greate increase is extended vnto many: As in the Sonne the beames be many, but the lighte is one: and in a Tree the boughes be many, but the body is One.

If there appeare any greate darkenesse, or doubte in these woordes, S. Cy­prian him self in other places thus expoundeth his owne meaning in plainer wise: [Page 113] Vna est Ecclesia à Christo per totum Mundum in plura membra diuisa: One Bi­shoprike. Item Episcopa­tus Vnus, Cyprian. Lib. 4. Epist. 2. Episcoporum multorum concordi numerositate diffusus: There is One Churche diuided by Christe into many Members throughout the worlde: Likewise One Bishoprike powred farre abroade by the agreeable multitude of many Bishoppes, Againe, Ecclesia Vna est, Cyprian. Lib. 4. Epist. 9. & connexa, & cohaerentium sibi inuicem Sacerdotum glutino copulata: There is One Churche, ioined, and fastened in One, by the consente of Bishoppes agreei [...]ge to­geather. Againe, Quando Oramus, non pro Vno Oramus, sed pro toto populo: Cyprian. In O­ration. Domi­nicam. Quia totus populus Vnum sumus: When wee praie, we praie not for One, but for the whole people: For wee the whole people are but One. Againe, immediately before these woordes, whiche, M. Hardinge saithe, wée are not hable to vnderstande, he saithe: Hanc Vnitatem firmiter tenere, Cyprian. De Simpli. Praelat. & vendicare debemus, maximé Episcopi, qui in Eccle­sia prae [...]idemus: vt Episcopatum quoque ipsum Vnum, & Indiuisum probemus: This Vnitie muste wee holde, specially Bishoppes, that fitte as Rulers in the Churche: that wee maye declare our Bishoprike to be One, Cyprian. Lib. 3. Epist. 13. and without diuision. Againe, Etsi Pasto­res multi sumus, Vnum tamen Gregem Pascimus: & Oues Vniuersas, quas Christus Sangume suo, & Passione quaesiuit, colligere, & fouere debemus: Notwithstandinge wee be many Shepheardes, yet wee Feede but One Flocke: and wee are al bounde to gea­ther vp, and to nourrishe al the Sheepe, that Christe hath wonne with his Bloude, and Passion.

If either the Authour of the Apologie, or the Interpreter vnderstoode not S. Cyprian, yet, M. Hardinge, ye maye geue S. Cyprian leaue, to vnderstande him selfe.

And in this sense S. Hierome saithe, Hieronym. in E­pist. ad Tit. Ca. 1. Communi Presbyterorum Consilio Ec­clesiae gubernabantur: The Churches were ordred ( not by the Vniuersal Authoritie of the Bishop of Rome, but) by the Common Aduise of the Priestes. Likewise S. Cyprian saithe, Cyprian. Lib. 3. Epist. 13. Ideircò copiosum est Corpus Sacerdotum, Cōcordiae mutuae glutine, atque Vni­ratis vinculo copulatum, vt si quis ex Collegio nostro Haeresim facere, & Gregem Chri­sti laccrare, ac vastare tentauerit, subueniant coeteri: Therefore is the Body, or com­panie of Priestes so copious, ioined togeather with consente of Concorde and Vnitie, that if any one of our Companie entreprise to raise an Heresie, and to scatter and waste the Flocke of Christe, Basili. ad Neo­caesarienses. the reste shoulde healpe. So likewise S. Basile: Interrogate Patres Ve­stros, & renuntiabunt vobis, quòd etiamsi loci situ diuisae inter se sint Paroeciae, tamen veluti Coronamento quodam Vnitae, vna (que) sententia gubernatae fuerunt. Assidua qui­dem populi fuit inter se commixtio: Ipsi verò Pastores tanta praediti fuerunt mutua in­ter ipsos Charitate, vt alius alio Praeceptore, ac Duce vsi fuerint: Aske of your Fathers, and they wil telle you, that although Bishoprikes be diuided, and sundred by distance of place, yet were they euer knitte togeather as with a Garlande, and euer ruled by One Ad­uise. In deede the People was euer mingled togeather: But the Bishoppes were al so ioined in Charitie, that euery of them was contente to be taught, and to be leadde by other.

Therefore, as many Faithes in sundrie Faithefulles are but One Faithe: as many Churches are but one Churche: as many Baptismes are but one Bap­tisme: Euen so, saithe S. Cyprian, many Bishoprikes are but One Bishoprike: and therein, as wel the Bishop of Rome, as also euery other seucral Bishop, hath his portion.

I saie, The Bishoprike of Rome is not this Whole Bishoprike, but a Parte: Not the Body of the Sunne, but a beame: Not the stemme of the Trée, but a braunche.

And thus, by S. Cyprians minde, neither doothe one Bishop holde of an o­ther: Nor is any One Bishop Heade of the Whole: Nor is One Bishop al in al: but al Bishoppes are onely One.

M. Hardinge.

If it be a shame to belie the Deuil, accordinge to the olde Prouerbe, what is it to belie the Churche of God represented in the Nicene Councel?

The sixth Canon amonge al others of the Nicene Councel is that you grounde your surmise vpon, The sixth Ca­non of the Ni­cene Councel declared to make againste the Defenders, I knowe wel. For that hath benne wreasted to your purpose by certaine of your side. And the same rightly construed Vntruth: For the ex­presse vvordes are plaine to the contra­rie. maketh moste againste you. For it seemeth to acknowledge the Bishoppe of Rome his Supremacie and Soueraigntie of iudgement ouer other Patriarkes. These be the woordes of the Canon rightly Englished hed. Let the Auncient custome continewe in force whiche is in Egypte, Ly­bia▪ and Pentapoli: so that the Bishop of Alexandria haue Power ouer them al. Quandoquidem etiam Episcopo Romano hoc consuetum est. [...]. For asmuch as the B. of Rome hath thus vsed. Likewise in Antiochia also, and in other Prouinces let the Churches keepe theire Prerogatiue. VVhat can be gathered of the woordes of this Canon, but that for ratefiynge the iurisdiction of the Patri­arkes of Alexandria, and Antiochia, the Fathers of the Nicene Councel thought good to alter no­thinge: but to folowe the Auncient custome of Olde time vsed and allowed by the B. of Rome? For it is asmuche to saie, as this: In asmuche as Vntruth Vaine and childishe. the B. of Rome hath benne wonte from the beginninge to graunt to the B. of Alexandria iurisdiction ouer Egypte, Lybia, and Pentapoli: the This Ex­position is like a sick [...] mannes dreame. Nicene Councel folowinge his authoritie and rule, or at the least his vsage, willeth and graunteth, that the saide Bi­shop retaine and keepe his auncient right. For if the B. of Alexandria had not receiued sutche iu­risdiction by Auctoritie and graunt of the B. of Rome of olde time, what reason shoulde haue mo­ued those Fathers, for confirmation thereof to alleage the custome of the B. of Rome? And in that case, O folie. The vvor­des are plaine: Quia Epis­copo Ro­mano pari­lis mos est. whereto perteined the additiō of the cause, Quia Episcopus Romanus hoc consueuit, bicause this was the Bishop of Rome his custome? If this had not benne theire meaninge, they would neuer so haue spoken. For what was his custome other, Vntruthe: For the B. of Rome neuer had Povver, to allotte Pro­uinces: but him selfe had his pro­uince allot­ted him, as vvel, as o­thers. A Ne Reci­piatur. then to allotte those Prouinces to the B. of Alexan­dria? If any other thinge be alleaged to haue benne his maner and custome, besides that the woordes of the Canon beare it not, what had that benne to the purpose, what so euer it be, for cause and confir­mation of the B. of Alexandria his iurisdiction ouer Egypte, Lybia, and Pentapoli? Alleage you, De­fender, for olde custome of the B. of Rome, what elles you liste, so that you make no violence to the Canon, and thereupon make your argument, inferringe of your allegation the Conclusion, ( Ergo, the B. of Alexandria ought to haue iurisdiction ouer Egypte, Lybia, and Pentapoli): and you shal finde it to be suche an argument, as any Sotte woulde be ashamed to make.

Against this if it shal like you to Replie, wee warne you before, that neither ye take aduantage of a doubteful interpretation, as we knowe that Canon to be founde in diuerse Bookes not so plaine­ly Translated, and therefore we require you to stande to the Original, as it is in Greeke: neither that ye defende your lie with the wrested Exposition of Theodore Balsamon, Theodore Bal­samon. who hath written Greeke Commentaries vpon the Canons of the Councels, sithens the schisme of the Greekes, him selfe beinge a Schismatike. For he beinge a Greeke borne, and prick [...] with the hatred of his Nation against the Latine Churche, and specially the See of Rome: in thexposition of that sixth Canon of the Nicene Councel swarueth bothe from learninge, and also from reason.

The B. of Sarisburie.

In déede it is a shame to belie any creature: for that lieinge is shameful of it selfe. And therefore, M. Hardinge, ye mighte doo mutche better, to vse it lesse. You haue brought vs here an Exposition of the Councel of Nice, sutche, as I thinke, from that time vntil this time hath seldome benne hearde of. You saie, The [Page 115] Bishop of Romes Custome was, TheConn cel of Nice to geue Iurisdiction to the Patriarkes of Alexan­dria, of Antioche, and of Hierusalem: and that thei had none Authoritie of Gouern­mente, but onely so mutche, as was limited, and allowed by him. And this, you saye, was the onely, and vndoubted meaninge of that Councel. This fantasie is not here auouched by any Auncient Doctour, or Learned Father. Therefore wée muste thinke, what so euer it be, it is your owne. And weighinge the strangenesse of the same, I muste needes saie of yow, as S. Hierome saide sometime of one Rhe­ticius in the like case, Hieronym. ad Marcellam. Rheticius eloquens quidem est, sed ineptus Interpres: Rheti­cius is an eloquente man in deede: and yet but a fonde Interpreter. For it is certaine, and knowen euen vnto Children, that the Bishop of Rome, before the Councel of Nice, had neither sutche Custome of Superioritie, nor sutche dealinge of Iurisdi­ctions. Pope Pius Secundus saithe, Aeneas Syluius. Epist. 288. Ante Nicenam Synodum vnusquisque sibi vi­xit: & paruus respectus ad Romanā Ecclesiam halebatur: Before the Councel of Nice, e­uery Bishop liued to him selfe: and there was then smal regarde had to the Churche of Rome.

As for our sortishe Argumentes, sutche as by your iudgemente any sorte would be ashamed to make, I maye leaue them wel to you, M. Hardinge; not for that ye lacke them greately, but for that, as it appeare the by your Bookes, ye knowe beste howe to vse them.

Touchinge the sixthe Canon of this Councel, whiche, you imagine, is so darke, and doubteful, I truste, it shalbe plainely, and clearely opened, by them that were neuer hitherto accounted sottishe.

The woordes thereof are plaine yenough. The sense is this. The whole Body of Christendome was diuided into foure Patriarkshippes: wherof the First was Rome: the Seconde Alexandria: the Thirde Antioche: the Fourthe Hierusa­lem. And eche of these was limited, and bounded within it selfe: Alexandria, to haue the ouersight ouer Egypte, & Pentapolis: Antioche, ouer Syria: Hierusalem, ouer Iurie: Rome, Lipomanus in Praefatione. Copus Dial. 1. 16 [...] Balsamonem Vi­rum cerie doctē ouer Italie, and other Churches of the Weaste. And herein wée haue the Exposition of Theodorus Balsamon, that liued fiue hundred yeeres agoe, and was Patriarke of Antioche, and, as somme of M. Hardinges trendes haue thought, a man of greate Learninge. Yet for as mutche as M. Hardinge here vt­terly refuseth him, not onely as a Schismatique, but also as a man bothe of Lear­ninge, and Reason, let vs therefore sée somme others.

Nilus, a Gréeke Authour, hereof writeth thus: Sed vt etiam liquidiùs appareat, Nilus, De Pri­matu Romani Pontificis. [...] Papam non imperare alijs omnibus Episcopis, legatur Sextus Canon Synodi Nicenae: quo Disertè praecipitur, vt alijs Ecclesijs alexandrinus, alijs Romanus, alijs Antiochenus praesit: vt non liceat alteri alterius prouinciam inuadere: That it maie the more plainely ap­peare, that the Pope hathe no Gouernment ouer al other Bishoppes, reade the Six the Canon of the Councel of Nice. There it is expressely Commaunded, that the Bishop of Alexandria shal haue the rule ouer certaine Churches: and the Bishop of Rome ouer certaine: and the Bishop of Antioche likewise ouer certaine: and that it be not lawful for any one of them to inuade an others Iurisdiction. Farther he saithe, Quòd si quis suis non contentus, aliena appetit, ille san [...] meritò & Consuetudinis, & Sanctorum Canonum violator haberi debet: Yf any one ( of these Patriarkes) not contented with his owne, craue Dominion ouer others, ( as doothe the Pope) he ought of right to be called a breaker bothe of the Custome, and also of the Holy Canons.

If M. Hardinge wil yet saie, Ruffinus Eccle. Historiae Lib. 1. Cap. 6. this Exposition is sottishe, let vs sée, in what sorte Others haue expounded the same. Rufinus openinge the same Canon saithe thus: Statutum est in Concilio Niceno, vt apud Alexandriam, & in V [...]be Roma Vetusta Cōsue [...]udo seruetur: Suburbicaru Ecclesiarum vt vel ille Aegypti, vel hic Suburbicarum Ecclesiarum solicitudinem gerat: It was decreed in the Councel of Nice, that in Alexandria, and in Rome the Olde Custome should be kepte: that the Bishop of Alexandria should rule ouer Egypte: and the Bi­shop [Page 116] of Rome ( not ouer al the world, but) ouer the Churches of his Suburbs.

Likewise it was afterwarde ordred in the Councel holden at Constantinople: Definimus Sedi Cōstantinopolitanae Paria Iura, Concil. Constan­tinopo. 2. Cap. 36. [...]. Nicepho. Lib. 12. Cap. 13. & Priuilegia cum Sede Veteris Romae: Wee Decree, that the See of Constantinople shal haue Rightes, and Priuiseges Equal ( and one) with the See of Olde Rome.

Therefore Nicephorus saithe, Romano, & Constantinopolitano Episcopo Ex Aequo Paria sunt, & Dignitatis praemia, & Honorum iura: The Titles of Dignities, and rightes of Honour, geuen to the Bishop of Rome, and to the Bishop of constantinople, are One, and Equal.

For this cause Athanasius saithe, Athanas. ad So­litariam Vitam agentes. Cod. De Sacro­sanctis Ecclesijs: Omni innoua­tione. Concil. Aphrica. Cap. 105. Nilus, De Pri­matii Papa. Roma erat Meeopolis Romanae Ditionis: Rome was the Moother Churche (not of the Whole Worlde, but) of the Romaine Iuris­diction. In like sorte the Emporour Iustinian saithe, Ecclesia Vrbis Constantino­politanae Romae Veteris Praerogatiua laetatur: The Churche of Constantinople enioieth the Prerogatiue, or Priuilege of the Churche of Olde Rome. So likewise S. Augustine, and other Learned, and Godly Bishoppes in the Councel of Aphrica, vnderstoode the same Canon. And therefore they called the Popes Presumption, crauinge Vniuersal Iurisdiction ouer al the Worlde, Fumosum saeculi Typhum, The smoky Pride of the world. To conclude, Nilus saithe thus, Nunc, cùm aliae Regiones as­signa [...]ae sint Romano, aliae Alexandrino, aliae Constantinopolitano, non magis hi sub illo sunt, quàm ille sub hisce: Seeinge there be certaine Countries appointed out for the Bishop of Rome, certaine for the Bishop of Alexandria, and certaine for the Bishop of Constantinople, they are nowe nomore subiecte vnto him, then he vnto them.

But al these perhaps were Sottes, and theire saieinges S [...]ttishe: and noman is hable rightly to vnderstande these maters, but he that can saie, Consuetudo, is Latine for a Commission: or, Mos parilis, for Vniuersal Iurisdiction.

M. Hardinge.

Neither the Bishop of Rome, An euil Bishop loseth not the name of a Bishop, though he lose the metite of a Bishop. Vide Augustin. Lib. 2. contra Epist. Parmen. Cap. 13. Tom. 7. 1. Tim. 2. nor any other Bishop is worthy of the Name of a Bishop, except he do the duetie of a Bishop. Al this wee graunt. But that he ought not of right to be so called, of those whom he hathe charge ouer, in case of omittinge his duetie: thereto we saie, that although in respect of his domeanou [...] he be not worthy to be called a Bishop▪ yet in respecte of the Vocation, Degree, and Preeminence, though he leaue his duetie vndone, for whiche he incurreth daunger of damnation, that Title perteineth vnto him of good right, and so continually he is and ought to be acknowleged for a Bishop, though an euil and an vnworthy Bishop: likewise a Priest. And whereas S. Augustine saithe, that a Bishop is a name of labour, and not of Honour, he is to be vnderstand so as the Scripture is: VVhiche in some places speakinge of two thinges, that are bothe in dede to be affirmed, the one beinge of more importance then the other, denieth the one in comparison of the other, &c.

Yet it semeth to be a secrete preparation towarde a purpose againste sutche time, as the Princes Gouernemente shal mislike theire phantasies. For where they Learned this Opinion, concerning Bi­shops, there Learned they also the like, concerninge Ciuil Magistrates. I meane VVicklef. Amonge [Page 117] whose Heretical articles condemned by the Churche in the Councel of Constance, A Bishop no Bishop▪ this is rekened for the fiftenth: Nullus est Dominus Ciuilis, nullus est Praelatus, nullus est Episcopus dum est in peccato mortali. That is to saie, None is a Temporal Lorde, none is a Prelate, none is a Bishop, so longe as he is in deadly sinne.

The B. of Sarisburie.

This mater shal néede no greate contention. The like woordes haue benne vttered by sundrie other Holy Fathers. S. Chrysostome saithe, Multi Sacerdotes, Chryso. in Mat­thae. Homil. 43. Chrysost. in eod. Homil. & Pauci Sacerdotes: Multi nomine, Pauci Opere: Many Priestes there be, and few Priestes there be: Many in name, and fewe in Laboure. Againe, Quomodò potest esse Magister, qui Discipulum non habet? Acquire Discipulum, & esto Magister: Howe can he be a Maister, Ambro. De Dig­nita. Sacerdota­li, Cap. 4. Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist 32. that [...]ath no Scholare? Geate thee a Scholar, and then be a Maister. S. Am­brose saithe, Nisi bonum Opus amplectaris, Episcopus esse non potes: Oulesse thou embrace the good labour, a Bishop thou canste not be. S. Gregorie saithe, Sacerdotes nominamur, & non sumus: Priestes wee are called, but Priestes wee are not.

As for VVicklefe, he expoundeth plainely his owne meaninge, and that with M. Hardinges owne Construction. For these be his woordes, euen as they are al­leged by his enimies: Papa, In Concil. Con­stātien. Session. 15 vel Praelatus malus, & Praescitus, est aequiuocè Pastor: & ve­rè Fur, & Latro: The Pope, or any other wicked Prelate, in double or doubteful speache is a Postour: but in very deede he is a Theefe, and a Murtherer. So Chrysostome saithe: Qui ab hominibus ordinatus est, Chrysost. in Mat­thae. Homil. 53. quantum ad Deū artinet, nō est Sacerdos, aut Diaconus: He that is appointed by menne ( and not by God) before God, is neither Priest, nor Deacon.

If VVicklefe, vpon iuste zele of the House of God, for that he then sawe, the Bi­shoppes either knew nothing, or did nothinge, or cared for nothinge, either spake, or meante more, then Truthe maie beare, wée defende it not. Notwithstandinge, touchinge that is obiected of deadly sinne, it séemeth, he folowed therein the Coun­cel of Valentia in France. Concil. Valentin. sub Damas. ca. 4. The woordes be these: Quicunque sub Ordinatione, vel Diaconatus, vel Presbyterij, vel Episcopatus, Mortali Crimine dixerint se esse pollusos, à supradictis Ordinationibus submoueātur: Who so eues after the Order, either of Deacon­ship, or of Priesthoode, or of Bishoprike, shal saie they haue benne defiled with Mortal Sinne, let them be remoued from the foresaide Orders.

So. S. Augustine saithe, as he is alleged by Gratian, 2. Quae. 7. Qui nec regiminis. Qui nec sua crimina deter­sit, nec filiorum crimen correxit, Canis impudicus dicendus est magis, quàm Episcopus: He that neither hath wiped of his owne finnes, nor corrected the Sinnes of his Children, ought rather to be called a shamelesse Dogge, then a Bishop.

Yet notwithstanding, to remoue al strife, what so euer the Bishop of Rome be, or what so euer he doo, let him hardly be called a Bishop, bicause, as M. Hardinge saithe, he standeth in roome of a Bishop: Or, as VVicklefe saithe, let him so be cal­led. Aequiuocè, that is to saie, by a woorde of double meaning: as Vnsauery Salte is called Salte: Or as the Prophetes of Baal are called Prophetes: Or as a pain­ted Man is called a Man: And as S. Gregorie saithe, Let him he called a Prieste, al­though in deede he be no Prieste. Let him be called a Teacher, although he Teache not: Let him be called a Féeder, although he Feéde not. S. Cyprian saith of S. Paule, Ipsum, Cyprian. Lib. 1. Epist. 3. Concil. Trident. De Sacramente Ordinis. Athanasius Ad Solitariam Vi­tam agentes. Hieron. in Soph [...] niam, Cap. 1▪ quamuis inane Nomen, & Vmbram quandam Sacerdotis cogitans, expauit: S. Paule was afroide, consideringe onely the emptie Name, and Shadowe of a Bishop. And in the late Councel of Tridente the mater is concluded thus, Qui dicit, cos, qui non exercent Ministerium Verbi, & Sacramentorum, non esse Sacerdotes, Anathema sit: Who so euer saie, that they, that Minister neither the Woorde of God, nor the Sacramentes, be no Priestes, Accursed be he. But Athanasius saithe, Quid opus est hominibus ti­tulo Episcopis? What neede haue wee of these menne, that beare onely the name of Ei­shoppes? Therefore S. Hierome saithe, Auferet Dominus Nomina Vanae gloriae, & Admirationis falsae, quae versantur in Ecclesia. Sed & Nomina Sacerdotum cum Sacer­dotibus [Page 118] dotibus aufere [...], Provvde. Name. qui frustrà sibi applaudunt in Episcopali, & in Presbyterij Dignitate, & non in Opere: The Lord shal take awaie the names of Vaine glorie, and of [...]ined woo [...]de­ring, whiche are in the Churche: Yea he shal take awaie bothe the names of those Priestes, and the Priestes withal, whiche vaunte them selues in the Dignitie of Bishoprike, and Prieste­hoode, but not in the Laboure.

M. Hardinge.

The name of Vniuersal Bishop, Vniuersal Bishop. which this Interpreter meaneth, beinge taken in a right sense, is no proude name, in respecte of him, Vntruthe, For it belōgeth not vnto the Pope. to whom it belongeth. VVhether any Bishop of Rome euer suf­fered himselfe to be called by that name, of no, as you denie it, and proue it not, so it forceth not whe­ther any did so, or no. If they refused it of humilitie, that proueth it not to be Vnla [...]ful.

The B. of Sarisburie.

If the name of Vniuersal Bishop be a Prowde Name in others, why may it not also be a Prowde Name in the Bishop of Rome? Hath the Bishop there sutche a special Priuilege for Pride aboue al others? May Pride be Humilitie, and Hu­militie Pride, onely in respecte of diuerse Personnes? You saie, This Title of right belonged to the Bishop of Rome: and therefore in him it was no Pride. This, M. Harding, is a fowle Vntruthe, as it shal appeare by the nexte Diuision. For these be the woordes of the Councel of Carthage, as Gratian allegeth them: Vniuersalis autem (Episcopus) nec ipse Romanus Pontifex appelletur: Distin. 99. Primae Sedis. The Bishop of Rome him selfe maie not be called the Vniuersal Bishop.

That the Olde Learned, and Godly Bishoppes of Rome refused this Name, as Prowde, and Arrogante, it is so plaine by S. Gregorie, that I marueile, any Learned man woulde calle it in question. His woordes thereof be these: Nullus Decessorum meorum hoc tam Profano Vocabulo vti consensit: Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 32. & 36. Nullus Romano­rum Pontificum hoc Singularitatis Nomen assumpsit: Nos hunc honorem nolumus obla­tum suscipere: None of my Predecessours Bishoppes of Rome, euer consented to vse this Vngodly Name: No Bishop of Rome euer toke vpon him this Name of Singularitie: Wee, the Bishoppes of Rome, wil not receiue this honour beinge offred vnto vs.

If the Bishoppes of Rome in Olde times refused this Name, not for wante of right, but onely, as M. Hardinge saithe, of Humilitie, wherefore then did theire Successours, that folowed afterwarde, so ambitiously laboure to geate the same? Platina saithe, Platina in Bo­nifa [...]io. 3. Bonifacius Tertius obtinuit à Phoca, Magna tamen Contentione: Pope Bonifacius the thirde obteined of the Emperour Phocas y ^• Rome should be called the Heade of al Churches) but with Greate Contention, and mutche adoo. Wherefore then dooth S. Augustine, & the whole Councel of Aphrica condemne the attempt [Page 119] of this vsurped Iurisdiction, Provvde Name. and calle it Fumosum Saeculi Typhum? The smoky Pride of the VVorlde: And that euen in the Bishoppes of Rome.

If the Bishop of Rome be so fulle of Humilitie, as wée are here borne in hande, why auaunceth he him selfe so High aboue al General Councelles? Why saithe he, that no Creature may iudge his dooinges? Why claimeth he the Swerde and Scepter of al the World? Why saithe he, that Christes Consistorie, and his Con­sistorie are al One, and that he can doo, al that God him selfe can doo? Why doothe he saye, That the Emperoure is but the Proctour, or Bailife of the Churche of Rome: Distinct. 98. Si Imperator. In gloss. Procurator, sfiue Defensor Romanae Ecclesiae? Why doothe he suffer Kinges, and Emperours to holde his Stirope, to leade his Palfrai, and to kisse his foote? Verily this kinde of Humilitie in other places might goe for Pride. Hesychius saithe, Hesychius. Sen. Lib. 4. [...]. 17. Curerg [...]. Dist. 40. Mul [...]i. Vbi Superbia regnat, & Hypocrisis, Humilitas locum non habet: Where Pride, and Hypocrisie beare the swaie, there Humilitie can haue no place. Likewise Chrysostome saithe, Quicunque desiderauerit Primatum in Terra, inuenie [...] in Coelo confusionem: nec inter Seruos Christi computabitur, qui de Primatu tractauerit: Who so euer defireth Pri­macie in Earthe, in Heauen he shal finde Confusion: Neither shal he be accumpted emong the Seruauntes of Christe, that wil once intreate of Primacie.

To conclude, a Learned Man, one of M. Hardinges owne side, hereupon hathe noted thus: Heruaeus, De po­tes [...]ate Papae. Cap. 13. Bonifacius obtinuit à Phoca, vt Ecclesia Romana esset Caput Omnium Ecclesiarum. Ex quo posset modo consimili sumi Argumentum, qu [...]d ad Imperatorem pertineat, Primatum Ecclesiae transferre, & de Ecclesijs Ordinare: Pope Bonifacius the thirde obteined of the Emperour Phocas, that the Churche of Rome should be the Head of al Churches. Whereof wee maye in like case geather an Argumente, that it belongeth to the Emperour, to translate the Primacie of the Churche, and to take Order for the Churches.

M. Hardinge.

Here by your leaue, Syr Defender, you playe false, and are taken, as it were, with false Dyse, and therefore ye ought iustly to lose al that ye haue vniustly wonne by your false playe, Falsefieinge of a Councel. and false Dyse: I meane your shameful falsefieinge of this Councel by you alleaged. And for this and other your fal­sehed it is right you lose the credite, whiche vniustly (bicause by false Teachinge) you haue wonne a­monge the Vnlearned. M. Harding is a mery man. That your false plaie might not sone be espted, you doo as like to Mais [...]er Iuel, as though you were his Fathers Sonne. For that false sleight he vseth more, then any that euer I readde. For where as we haue seuen Councelles of Carthage, nether shewe you, whiche of them it is that you alleage, nor geue any notice of the number, where the Canon maye be founde. But contrari­wise as the Lap winge with her busie crie leadeth a man from her neste, so you leade vs from the Place, where it is, by puttinge in the Margent of your Booke the number, 47. that not findinge it by your note, Iohan. 5. we should geue ouer further lookinge for it. VVho dothe euil, hateth Light, saithe Christe. So here falsefieing Vntruthe. For, this Canon vvil soone be founde. and forginge a Canon of a Councel, you would faine walke in clowdes, that your lieing might not be deprehended, &c. So had it ben done more circumspectly for furtherance of your fals hed, if the matter should neuer come to trial of Learninge.

Nowe, who so euer examineth the place truly, must nedes crie out shame on you, Defender, who are thauctour. The 26. Canon of the thirds Councel of Carthage discus. sed. The woordes, if you had listed to haue alleged them without falshed, be these, VVhiche we finde in the 26. Canon of the thirde Councel of Carthage, whiche Councel was Authorized by the sixth general Councel holden at Constantinople in Trullo. Vt primae sedis Episcopus non appel­letur Princeps Sacerdotū, aut Summus Sacerdos, aut aliquid huiusmodi, Sed tātùm, Primae Sedis Episcopus. And thus they are to be Englished. It hathe liked vs (saie the Fathers of that Councel) that a Bishop of a First See be not called Prince of Priestes, or Highest Priest, or any sutche o­ther [Page 120] thinge, Higheste Bishop, Prince of Priestes. but onely a Bishop of a Firste see. Nowe commeth me this iotly Defender, and saith [...] the Councel of Carthage hathe by expresse wordes, (for so mutche his Latine foundeth) that no Bishop should be called either the Highest Bishop, or Chiefe Pr [...]est. By whiche Canon thus by him vntruely vttered, he thought to deprtue the Pope of this Vntruthe, as shal ap­peare. Auncient Title, that al the worlde hathe euer at [...]ri­buted vnto him, so as he be called nomore Summus Pontifex.

For the right vnderstandinge of this Canon two thinges are to be considered. Vile Epistolam [...] 9. ad Pe­trum & Iohan­nem Aph [...]ic [...] Episcopos. Howe farre the Authoritie of this Councel ought to be extended, and what is meant by a Firste See. Vntruthe. For this Councel na­mely restreineth the B. of Rome. The Decrees of this Councel perteined but to the Prouince of Aphrike. For prouinc [...]al Councelles binde onely the pro­uinces, in whiche, and for Order of whiche they be kepte. Onely the General Councelles are to be receiued of al.

By these two woordes, Prima Sedes, vvhat it mea­neth. Prima Sedes those Fathers vnderstode any Citie, in whiche a Patriarke of Primate, who are of one office, though of diuerse names, hathe his see. I cal it a first see, or rather (if it might be permitted) a Primate see. Vntruthe▪ grounded vpon a fable In greate Citties where the Highest courtes for iustice were kept, Distin. 99. de Primatibus. and where the chiefe Pagane Priestes of the Latines named, Primi Flamines, were re­sident before the comminge of Christe, there after Christes comminge were Patriarkes or Primates placed: by whom the weighte matters of Bishops should be decided Vntruthe, grounded as the For­mer. VVhiche Order was taken firste by commaundement of S. Peter, Dist. 99. C. Pro­ninciae. as Clement writeth: by the Apostles and Clement, as Anacletus wit­nesseth: by the Apostles and theire Successours afterward, as Lucius the Pope saithe.

Nowe the Councel of Carthage by this Defender alleaged, and likewise the Aphrican Councel ordeined and willed, that a Bishop of any of the Primate Sees of Aphr [...]ke shoulde not be called, Princeps Sacerdotum, aut Summus Sacerdos, Prince or chiefe of the Priestes, or High [...]st Prieste: by whiche woorde a Bishop is there signified: But onely a Bishop of the Primate See, whereof he was Primate. By whiche Decree they willed Moste manifeste & moste vaine Vntruthe. For the vvoordes of the Councel are these: Vniuersalis autem nec etiam Ro­manus pon­tifex appelletur. only theire Primates of Aphrike to kepe themselues with­in theire limites, and not presumptuously to take vpon them more gloriouse Titles, and further Iuris­dictiō, then to them pertetned, Lest surely they might seme to preiudicate the Popes Supremacie. Thus it is euident, thauctoritie of that Charthage Councel, being restrained to [...]phrike onely, that by this Canon the Popes Prima ie and Title is no Whit dim [...]n [...]shed or disproued. And so for al this Defender, he remaineth as he hathe A greate Vn­truthe. euer, Highest Bishop.

The B. of Sarisburie.

What, M. Hardinge, so mutche falsehed vpon vs at one time? Falsifieinge of Councelles: Shameful Falsifieinge: False teachinge: False sleight: False Dise: False Plaie: and al False? Yet Christe saithe of him selfe, I am the Truthe. God geue you grace, to credite him. For the errour of quotation in the margin, wherin you spende so many woordes, it maye please you to knowe, that I neither was the Printer, nor coulde be presente at the Printinge. For the reste, if there can be any one pointe of Falsehed founde in me, touchinge the allegation of this Councel of Carthage, I wil not refuse to stande charged with the whole. But if euery of these horrible Falseheddes be found an euident, and plaine Truthe, then it maye please you, to take home al these prety Titles to your selfe againe, as in euery of these woordes so often doubled, and so heapte togeather, hauing your selfe commit­ted a seueral Falsehedde.

And herein for trial of your courteous dealinge, I am contente, your selfe shal fit, and be the Iudge. For, notwithstanding it be thought of many, that ye dissem­ble déepely, and wil not bestowe your voice to saie the Truthe: Yet I doubte not, but in this mater, if ye haue eles, ye maye easily looke vp, and sée the Truthe.

You saye, Sir Defender hathe falsely alleged the Councel of Carthage. And why so? For that he saithe, The Councel Decréed by expresse woordes, that the Bishop of Rome should not be called the Vniuersal Bishop. This, you saie, is For­ged, and Falsified, and is no parte of that Councel. For indifferent trial bothe of the Truthe, and of the Falsehed herein, I beseche you, beholde the very woordes of [Page 121] the Councel, Higheste Bishop, Prince of Priestes. Disti. 99. Primae. euen as thei are alleged by your own Doctour Gratiā. These thei are: Primae Sedis Episcopus non appelletur Princeps Sacerdotum, vel Summus Sacerdos, vel a­liquid huiusmodi: Sed tantùm, Primae Sedis Episcopus. Vniuersalis autem nec etiam Romanus Pontifex appelletur: Let not the Bishop of any of the Firste Sees be called the Prince of Priestes, Or the Highest Prieste, or by any other like name: but Onely, the Bishop of the Firste see. But let not the Bishop of Rome him selfe be called the Vniuersal Bishop. And in y ^e Glose there­upon it is noted thus, In hac Distinctione dicitur, quod Papa non debet dici V­niuersalis: In this Distinction it is saide, that the Pope ought not to be cal­led the Vniuersal Bishop.

Nowe, M. Hardinge compare our woordes, and the Councelles wordes bothe togeather. Wée saie none otherwise, but as the Councel saithe, The Bishop of Rome him selfe ought not to be called the Vniuersal Bishop. Herein wée doo neither adde, nor minishe, but reporte the woordes playnely, as wée finde them. If you had lookte better on your Booke, and would haue tried this ma­ter, as you saye, by your Learninge, ye might wel haue reserued these Vnciuile re­proches of Falsehedde to your selfe, and haue spared your Crieinge of Shame vpon this Defender.

Touchinge, that you so pleasantly cheare your selfe with these woordes, You doo as like to M. Iewel, as if you were his Fathers Sonne▪ I muste answeare you, as S. Augustine sometime did the Heretique Cresconius: August. Contra Cresc. Li. 3. Ca. 38 Serua potius Puerilia Pueris: Keepe sutche Childishe toies to plaie with your Children. God make vs bothe like vnto our Father that is in Heauen.

Where you saie, of your selfe onely, without farther witnesse, that this Title is the Popes Auncient right, euer géeuen to him by al the world, I doubte not, but the vntruthe hereof by my Former Replie, Artic. 4. Gregor. Lib. 7 Epist. 30. touching the same, maie soone appeare. Certainely, when the same Title was offered to S. Gregorie, he refused it vtterly, as none of his.

In déede, this Councel of Carthage notwithstanding, the Title of Highest Bi­shop was sometimes geuen, not onely to the Bishop of Rome, & other Patriarkes, but also vnto al other Bishoppes. M. Hardinge [...] Amphilochius. Rufinus, Lib. 2. Cap. 23. M. Hardinges owne Amphilochius calleth S. Bastle Principem Sacerdotum: The Prince, or Chiefe of Bishoppes: Rufinus calleth Athanasius, Pontificem Maximum: The Highest Bishop. Nazianzenus calleth the same Athanasius Archisacerdotem Sacerdotum: The Chiefe Bishop of Bishoppes. La­ctantius calleth euery Bishoprike Summum Sacerdotiū. Nazian. Ad H [...] ­ronem. Likewise S. Hierome saith, Ecclesiae Salus in Summi Sacerdotis dignitate pendet: The safetie of the Churche standeth in the dignitie of the Highest Priest. Lactan. Lib. 4. Cap. 30. By whiche Highest Prieste, M. Hardinge him selfe saithe, is meante euery seueral Bishop within his owne Diocese. S. Augustine saithe, Hieron, contra Luciferianos. M. Hardinge in his Answeare to the Apologie, Fol. 204. b. Quid est Episcopus, nisi Primus Presbyter, hoc est, Summus Sacerdos? What is a Bishop, but the First, or Chiefe Prieste, that is to saie, the Highest Prieste? Therefore wée may safely spare the Pope this Title, of Highest Bishop, not as Peculiar to him alone, as M. Hardinge imagineth, but as Common, and General to al Bishoppes.

Al that ye haue here alleged of the Iurisdiction of the Flamines, is a mere fan­tasie▪ grounded onely vpō an vnsauery Fable of Anacletus, and Clemens. Neither are you hable to finde, In Quaest. Ex vtro (que) Testamen▪ mixtim, Qu. 10 [...]. either these names, Archiflamines, or Protoflamines, whiche here are imagined, in any Ancient allowed Writer, or any sutche Vniuer­sal Iurisdiction to them belonginge.

The Firste, or Principal, or Mother Sees were limited, not by the Flamines, but by the Prince. Concil. Chalced. Cap. 12. So it is written in the Councel of Chalcedon: Quascunque [Page 122] Ciuitates per Literas Regias Metropolitico nomine honorarunt: A Primate See. VVhat Citties so e­uer by the Princes Charter, they honoured with the name of the Mother See. And therefore the Emperour Theodosius vpon displeasure conceiued, Chrys. ad Popul. Antiochen. Homi. 17. tooke that Name of Honoure from the Cittie of Antioche, mindinge it shoulde be so called nomore. And for that cause was the Cittie of Rome chosen emongest others to be a Pri­mate, or a Principal Mother Sée, not for that either Christe, or Peter had so ap­pointed, as M. Hardinge telleth vs, but for that it was the moste Noble Cittie, and of greattest renoume in al the world. Concil. Chalced. Ca. 28. The woordes be plaine: Sedi Veteris Ro­mae Patres meritò dederunt Primatum, Quòd illa Ciuitas aliis Imperaret: The Fathers woorthily gaue the Chiefetie to the See of the Olde Rome: Bicause that Cittie had the Princehood ouer others.

Nowe concerninge this Decrée of the Councel of Carthage, it touched as wel the Bishop of Rome, as other Primates. And therefore Pope Adriane afterward alleging, and corrupting the same, added thereto this special Prouiso for him selfe: Nullus Archiepiscoporum, nisi qui Primas Sedes renent, appelletur Primas, aut Princeps Sacerdotum, Adri [...]. Papa. In Capitulis ex Sy­nodis, & Cano­nib. diuer. collec. To. 2. Pag. 611. aut Summus Sacerdos, aut aliquid huiusmodi &c. Salua semper in omnibus Authoritate Beati Petri Apostoli: Let no Archebishop, sauinge sutche, as heue the Principal, or Firste Sees, he called either the Primate, or the Prince of Priestes, or the Highest Prieste, or by any other like name, &c. Sauinge alwaies, and in al thinges the Authoritie of Blessed S. Pe­ter the Apostle.

M. Hardinge.

Here is mutche adoo aboute nought, and a number of bitter woordes pyked out of S. Gregorio [...] Epistles, pretended to be writtē against the Bishop of Rome, to no purpose. For if wee say, Vntruthe. For Platina saithe, Bonifacius 3. Obtinuit à Pho­ca, Magna tamē Contentione. as wee may saie truely, that he chalengeth to him selfe no sutche name, then what hath this Defender to saie? Let him shew vs how many Bishops of that see euer tooke the name of the Vniuersal Bishop vpon them, specially as Gregorie vnderstandeth it to signifie. If he can shewe none, why blotteth he so mutche paper with so impudent lies?

There appea­reth no sutche mater in al that Counc [...]l. In deede the six hundred and thirty Fathers of the general Councel of Chalcedon gaue to Pope Leo that name, as Gregorie in three sundrie Epistles writeth, and certaine other in theire writinges haue attributed to the Pope the same. But that either Leo, or any other his Successour Vntruthe, As appear [...]th by the Former Au­thoritie of Pla­tina. affected so to be called, Gregorie denieth [...] Vntruthe, As further appea­reth by the An­sweare. And that any since Gregories time to our dayes euer called or wrote him selfe Vniuersal Bishop, we denie.

VVhereas Pelagius, and Gregorie, writinge againste the Presumption of Iohn the Bishop of Con­stantinople for takinge vpon him this name, are mutche alleged by the enimies of Vnitie, againste the Authoritie of Peters Successour ouer the whole Churche: we saye, that they folowinge the sleppes of theire Predecessours refused the name of Vniuersal Bishop in sutche sense, as Pelagius, and specially Gregorie oftentimes declareth, that where one is called Vniuersal Bishop, he semeth to be called [Page 123] Vntruthe, and most Vaine fan­tasie. For no Bi­shop of Constā ­tinople euer dreamed of sutche Autho­ritie. Bishop alone, Vniuersal so as Bishoprike should be taken away from al others. But they refused not so to be cal­led after this meaninge, as though by that refusal the Auctoritie of the Bishop of Rome should be re­strained, and not extende ouer the whole Churche. They denie, that any man might so be Vniuersal Bi­shop, as he should be also the peculiar ruler, and Gouernour of euery particular Churche. For so al other Bishops had ben in vaine: and that is contrary to Christes Institution, who ordeined al the Apostles to be Bishops. To saie al in few, they refused the name that might odiously be taken, they refused not the Primacie Vntruthe. For Christe neuer erected any sutche Primacie. whiche Christe to them had committed. Therefore Gregorie writinge to Morice the Emperour, alleaginge the woordes that make for Peters Auctoritie ouer the whole Flocke of Christe, saithe of Peter, The like vvhole Charge vvas geuen to Paule, Iohn, and Mathevve: as shal appeare. The Charge of the whole Churche and Principalitie is committed to him, and yet is he not called Vniuersal Apostle. VVhere it is plaine, that Gregorie doth both affirme the charge of the whole, and denieth the name of Vniuersal. Let these Defenders graunte the thinge, and we striue not for the name.

The B. of Sarisburie.

Here it pleasethe M. Hardinge of his Courtesie to saye, Wée haue blotted our pa­pers with so many, & so many impudente Lies. His whole discourse standeth one­ly in the Construction of this woorde, Vniuersal, in what sense it maye be either re­fused, or claimed. How be it, vnderstand thou, gētle Reader, that al this is M. Har­dinges owne onely Commētarie. For other Doctour, or Father he allegeth none.

Firste, where it is saide, that S. Gregorie by this woorde, Vniuersal Bishop, meante him, that woulde be Bishop alone ouer al the worlde, excludinge al others, this exposition is not onely strange, but also vaine, and fonde, and voide of reason. For what Bishop of Constantinople euer was there, that called him selfe the On­ly Bishop, and excluded al others? Doubtelesse Iohn, that firste laide Claime vnto this name, as he called him selfe the Vniuersal Bishop, so he wrote his Let­ters vnto others, and neuer refused to calle them Bishoppes.

But, to leaue these Gloses, and fantasies, by the Title of Vniuersal Bishop, S▪ Gregorie meante sutche a one, not, as would be Bishop alone, but as woulde claime Infinite Authoritie, and Vniuersal Iurisdiction ouer al other Bishoppes throughout the Worlde: and that, as S. Cyprian saithe, woulde calle him selfe, Episcopum Episcoporum: The Bishop of Bishoppes.

Therefore S. Cyprian. in Con [...] cil. Carthagin. Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 38. Gregorie thus writeth vnto Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople. the Firste Vsurper of this Title: Quid tu Christo Vniuersalis Ecclesiae Capiti in Ex­tremi Iudicij responsurus es examine, qui cuncta eius Membra tibimet conaris Vniuersalis appellatione supponere? What answeare wilt thou make vnto Christe the Heade of the V­niuersal Churche, when thou shalt be examined at the laste Judgement, (not that thou haste called thee selfe the Onely Bishop, but) that thus goest aboute by the name of Vniuersal Bishop to make al his Members subiecte vnto thee? It was this Immoderate Vniuer­sal. Iurisdiction, that S. Gregorie reproued, and not the makinge of him selfe Bi­shop alone, excludinge al others.

Likewise he writeth of him selfe vnto Eulogius: Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 30. Beatitudo vestra mihi sic lo­quitur, Sicut Iussistis. Quod Verbum Iussionis, peto, à meo auditu remouete. Nō Iussi: Sed quae vtilia visa sunt, indicare curaui: Your Holinesse saithe thus vnto me, ( beinge the Bishop of Rome) As you haue Commaunded. Haue awaye this woorde of Commaundinge from my Hearinge, I beseeche you. I Commaunded you not: but that I tooke to be the beste, I thought good to shewe you. The faulte therefore, that Gregorie findeth with Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople, stoode not in cal­ling him selfe the Onely Bishop, for so he neuer did, but in Bidding, & Commaun­ding, & Claiming Vniuersalitie of Iurisdiction ouer the whole Churche of Christe. And for that cause he saithe vnto Eulogius: Gregor. Lib. 7. Epist 30. Ecce in Praefatione Epistolae, quam ad [...]eipsum, qui prohibui, direxistis, Superbae Appellationis Verbum, Vniuersalem [Page 124] me Papam dicentes imprimere Curastis. Vniuersal. Quod, peto, dulcissima mihi Sanctitas ve­stra vltra non faciat: quia vobis subtrahitur, quod alteri plusquam ratio exigit praebetur: Beholde euen in the Title of your Letter ye haue written this Prowde Posee, naminge me The Vniuersal Pope: notwithstanding I haue forbidden it. I beseche your Holinesse, to doo so nomore. For what so euer is geuen vnto any other aboue reason, the same is taken from your selues.

M. Hardinge saithe, Gregorie affirmeth the Charge of the whole, and denieth the name of Vniuersal. Let these Defenders (saithe he) graunte the thinge, and wée striue not for the name. Verily this plaie had benne to vaine for Childrē: to allow y ^• thinge it selfe, and to cauil onely about the name: that is to receiue the Body, and to shunne the Shadowe: Ma [...]t. 23. Appianus: [...]. Or, as Christe saithe, to swalowe a Camel, and to straine a gnatte. So App [...]an saithe, Iulius Caesar nicely refused to be called a Kinge: and yet in al manner Authoritie, and Gouernmente bare him selfe none otherwise, then as a Kinge.

It was not the bare Name of Vniuersal Bishop, that so mutche offended the Holy Fathers: but the Pride, and Tyrannie, and Vniuersal Gouernmente, & Iu­risdiction, that is signified by that name. If the name were naught, then was the Vsurpation of the thinge it selfe a greate deale woorse.

But S. Gregorie saithe, The Charge, and Principalitie of the whole Churche was committed vnto Peter. This is not denied. In like sorte Chrysostome saithe, The like Charge, and Principalitie of the Churche was committed vnto Paule. For thus he writeth, Chrys. in Sermo. De Eleemosy. Chrysost. in Act. Homili. 53. Paulo Totus Orbis creditus est Paulus gubernat Orbis Ecclesiam: Paulus Vni­uersum gubernat Orbem: Vnto Paule the whole World is committed: Paule gouerneth the Churche of the VVorld. Paule ruleth y ^• vvhole vvorld. And yet Chrysostome meant not hereby, y ^• Paule had the Vniuersal Gouernmente of the whole: but that his care, & Charge was general, Chrysost. De Laudibus Pauli, Homil. 2. as not bound or limited vnto one place, but indifferente, & cō ­mō vnto al. So he saithe, Paulus tā anxi [...] omniū salutē curabat, [...]c si Totus Mundus vnica esset Domus: Paule was so careful for the Saluation of al menne, as if the Whole Worlde had benne but one House. Chrys. in Homil. De Profectu Euangelij. Chrysost. ad Po­pul. Antioche. Homil. 73. Againe, Paulum tangebat solicitudo Omnium Ecclesiarum: non Vn [...]us, aut Duarum, aut Trium, sed Omnium, quae erant per Orbem Terrarum: Paule was moued with the care of Al Churches: not of One, or Two, or Three, but of Al the Churches throughout the World. Likewise he saithe of S. Iohn, Columna erat Omniū, quae in Orbe sunt, Ecclesia [...]um. He was the Piller of Al the Churches in the Worlde. Li­kewise againe of S. Mathewe, Matthaeus Vniuersi Orbis curam gerebat: The Whole VVorlde was vnder Mathewes Charge. Chrysost. in Pro­logo in Iohan. Chrys. in Mat­thae. Homil. 48.

Therefore if M. Hardinge wil geather out of these thrée woordes of S. Gregorie ( Totius Ecclesiae Cura) that Peter had Vniuersal Iurisdiction ouer al, it muste néedes folowe by the same woordes, that Paule, Iohn, and Mathewe had the same Iurisdiction ouer al. What other thinge he hopeth to gaine by these Woordes of S. Gregorie, I cannot tel: Onlesse happily he wil founde his reason thus: S. Gregorie saithe, Petrus Vniuersalis Apostolus non vocatur: Peter is not called the Vni­uersal Apostle: Ergo, The pope is the Vniuersal Bishop.

So handsomely these thinges are geathered togeather, to serue the Pourpose.

Pope Leo, ye saie, of Humilitie refused this Name openly in the Councel of Chalcedon. In déede Pope Gregorie so reporteth it. Notwithstandinge it appea­reth not by any thinge donne in that Coūcel, that this Title was euer offered him. And to refuse a thinge before it be offered, it is no greate pointe of Humilitie.

To be shorte, the beste wée can geather hereof, is this: Iohn the Bishop of Con­stantinople ambitiously craued this name: Pope Leo godly refused it being offe­red vnto him: The Popes afterward gladly receiued it without offering. If it were [Page 125] a good name, Vniuersal why was it refused? If it were an il name, why was it receiued?

Nowe let vs sée, what they of M. Hardinges side haue meante by this woorde, Vniuersal, and with what Humilitie the Popes haue receiued the same. Thus therefore they write: Abbas. De Cō ­cess. Praeben. Quia diuersita. Papa est Ordinarius Totius Mundi: The Pope is the Ordinarie of al the VVorld. Extra, De Ap­pel▪ Ve debitus, In Gloss. Papa est Ordinarius Omnium hominum. The Pope is the Ordina­rie of Al menne: Extra. De statu Regulari, Peri­culoso. In Gloss. Papa Totius Orbis obtinet Principatum: The Pope hathe the Princehood of Al the VVorlde: And when the Pope is Consecrate, the Chiefe Minister saith vnto him, Ceremoniar. Lib. 1. Cap. 4. Ego inuestio te de Papatu, vt Praesis Vrbi, & Orbi: I doo inueste thee with the Popedome, that thou maiste rule both the Cittie, and the VVorlde.

And whereas M. Hardinge demaundeth, how many Popes haue claimed this name, it may please him to remember, that in the late Councel of Constance it was not onely claimed, but also published, as an Article of y ^• Faithe. The woordes are these, Paralipome. Vrspergen. De Disputatione Lipsica. De necessitate Salutis est credere, Papam esse Oecumenicum: It is of the ne­cessitie of Saluation to beleue, that the Pope is the Vniuersal Bishop.

Of this Vniuersalitie of Power Franciscus Zarabella writeth thus: Francis. Zara­bella. Papa iam occupauit Omnia iura inferiorum Ecclesiarum, ira▪ vt inferiores Praelati sint pro nihilo: The Pope hathe nowe gotten the right of Al Inferiour Churches, so that the Inferiour Pre­lates stande nowe for nothinge.

For these causes Gregorie callethe the name of Vniuersal Bishop. a Prophane, a Presumptuous, a Wicked and Antichristian name: Comparinge the Vsurper thereof with Lucifer, and Antichriste.

M. Hardinge.

Ye saye, that the Minister ought laufully to be called (for so hathe your Latine) and duely and or­derly to be preferred to that office of the Churche of God. VVhy do ye not so? VVhy is not this obser­ued amonge you Gospellers? VVhat so euer ye meane by your Minister, and by that office, Vntruthe. For it is knovven▪ vvee haue them. this are wee assured of, that in this your newe Churche, Bishops, Priestes, Deacons, Subdeacons, or any other In­feriour Orders ye haue none.

For whereas after the Doctrine of your Newe Gospel, like the Forerenners of Antichriste, ye haue Vntruthe. For vvee haue aban­doned neither the Priesthoode, nor the Sacri­fice, that Christe appointed. abandoned thexternal sacrifice, and Priesthood of the Newe Testamente, and haue not in your Secte consecrated Bishops, and therefore beinge without Priestes made with lawful laieinge on of handes, as Scripture requireth, al Holy Orders beinge geuen by Bishops onely: howe can ye saie, that any amonge you can lawfully Minister, or that ye haue any lawful Ministers at al?

This then beinge so, let me haue leaue to oppose one of these Defenders consciences. And that for the better Vnderstandinge I maye directe my woordes to a certaine person, let him be the Au­thour of this Apologie, or bicause his name to me is vnknowen, let him be M. Iewel. For with him gladly woulde I reason in this point, the rather for acquaintance, and for that he beareth the name of a Bishop in that Churche, where my selfe had a roume. Howe saye you, Sir Minister Bi­shop, ought the Minister to be lawfully called? ought he dewly and orderly to be preferred to that [Page 126] office, or (as the Latine here hathe) promoted, or put in Auctoritie ouer the Churche? in the Apologie this Defender saithe, yea.

Howe many Bishops can you recken, whome in the Churche of Salesbury you haue succeded as wel in Doctrine, as in outwarde sittinge in that Chaire? Howe many can you tel vs of, that be­inge your Predecessours in order before you, were of your Opinion, and taught the faitheful people of that Dioces the Doctrine, that you teache? Did Bishop Capon teache your Doctrine? did Shaxton [...] did Campegius? did Bishop Audley? Briefly, did euer any Bishop of that See before you teache your Doctrine? Vntruthe. For B. Shaxton, and B. Capon taught the same. It is moste certaine they did not.

If you cannot shewe your Bishoply Petigree, if you can proue no Succession, then whereby holde you? VVil you shewe vs the Letters Patentes of the Prince? VVel may they stande you in some steede before men: before God, who shal cal you to accoumpt for preswninge to take the Highest office in his Churche Vntruthe. For he vvas chosen by Canonical Election of the Chapter, as al o­ther Bishoppes haue benne be­fore. not duely called thereto, they shal serue you to no propose.

You know what Tertullian saithe of sutch as ye be: In praescri­ptionibus aduersus Haereticos. These be Tertullians vvoordes. Edāt Origines Ecclesiarum suarum, &c. VVe saye likewise to you M. Iewel, and that we saye to you, we saye to eche one of your Companions: Tel vs the Original and firste springe of your Churche. She we vs the Register of your Bishoppes continually succedinge one an other from the beginninge, so as that firste Bishop haue some one of the Apostles, or of the Apostolike men for his Authour, and Predecessour. For by this waye the Apo­stolike Churches shewe what reputation they be of. As the Churche of Smyrnae telleth vs of Po­lycarpe by Iohn the Apostle placed there. The Churche of the Romaines telleth vs of Clement or­deined by Peter. Epist. 165. S. Augustine hauinge reckened vp in order the Bishoppes of Rome to An astasius Successour to Siricius, who was the Eighte and thirteth after Peter, saithe that in al that Num­ber and rolle of Bishoppes there is not founde One, that was a Donatisie: and thereof he concludeth, Ergo, the Donatistes be not Catholikes. So after that wee haue reckened al the Bishoppes of Salisburie from Bishop Capon vpwarde, we shal come at length in respecte of Doctrine and Or­ders to S. Augustine the Apostle of the Englishe, who was made Bishop by Gregorie, and from Gre­gorie vpwarde to S. Peter. And in al that rewe of Bishops Vntruthe, By your ovvne Confession. wee shal finde neuer a one that be­leued, as M. Iewel beleueth. Ergo, your Zwinglian and Caluinian Belefe, M. Iewel, and of the rest of your felowes is not Catholike.

Therefore, to go from your Succession, whiche ye cannot proue, and to come to your Vocation, how saie you Syr? You beare your selfe as though you were Bishop of Salisburie. But howe can you proue your Vocation? By what Authoritie Vsurpe you the Administration of Doctrine and Sacra­mentes? VVhat can you alleage for the right and Proufe of your Ministerie? who hathe called you? VVho hathe laide handes on you? By what example hathe he done it? Howe and by whom are you consecrated? VVho hathe sent you? VVho hathe committed to you th [...]ffice you take vpon you? Be you a Prieste, or be you not? If you be no▪ how dare you Vsurpe the name and Office of a Bishop? If you be, tel vs Euen he, that gaue M. Har­dinge Orders in the time of K. Edvvarde. who gaue you Orders? The Institution of a Prieste, was neuer yet but in the Power of a Bishop. Bishoppes haue alwaies after the Apostles time, accordinge to the Ecclesiastical Canons, ben consecrated by Vntruths tvvo togeather in one Sentence: See the An­svveare. three other Bishoppes, with the consente of the Metropolitane, and confirmation * of the Bishop of Rome.

Macarius a Prieste of Athanasius, Athanas. in Apologia. [...] (as it was laide to his Charge by his accusers) pulled Ischyras frō the Aul [...]ar as he was at A vaine Vn­truthe. For if it had benne any thinge, it had benne a Com­munion, & not a Masse. But Athanasius saithe plainely, Ne (que) Ecclesia ibi erat, ne (que) Sacra ficbant, ne (que) tē ­pus mysteriorum agebatur. Masse, ouerthrew the Holy Table brake the Chalice. The matter brought to iudgement, Athanasius and those Bishops both denied the facte and also though it were graunted, yet defended the same as wel done, because Ischyras was not a lawful Minister of the Churche. And why so? bicause he was not lawfully made Prieste, nor with Churchely laieing on of handes cōsecrated. By which example besides other pointes wee are taught, what to iudge of your pretensed Cōmunion.

Againe what saye you to Epiphanius, Contra H [...] ­res. [...] Lib a. In Dialog [...] contra Lu­ciferianos. who writeth againste one Zacchaeus of his time, for that beinge but a Laye man, with wicked Presumption tooke vpon him to * handle the Holy Mysteries, and rashely to do the office of a Prieste? Hereof S. Hierome sa [...]the not ably: Hilarius cùm Diaconus de Ecclesia recesserit, &c. Hilary for asmutche as he went from the Churche beinge a Deacon, and is onely (as he thinketh) the multitude of the worlde, can neither consecrate the Sacramente of Thaulter beinge without Bishops and Priestes, nor deliuer Baptisme without the [...]uchariste. [Page 127] And whereas nowe the man is deade, Succes­sion. with the man also the secte is ended, because beinge a De­acon he coulde not consecrate any Clerke that shoulde remaine after him. And Churche is there none, Sacerdotē. whiche hath not a Prieste. But lettinge goe these fewe of litle regarde, that to them selues be bothe Laie and Bishoppes, listen what is to be thought of the Churche. Thus S. Hierome there. In whome leauinge other thinges I note, that if there be no Churche, where is no Prieste, VVhere is your Churche like to become, M. Hardinges Brethren Apo­states. after that our Apostates, that nowe be fledde from vs to you, shalbe departed this Life? Therefore this beinge true, it remaineth, M. Iewel, you tel vs, whether your Vocation be Ordinarie or Extraordinarie. If it be Ordinarie, shewe vs the letters of your Orders. At least shewe vs, that you haue receiued Power to doo the Office, you presume to exercise, by due order of laieinge on of handes and Consecration. A manifest Vntruthe: For vvee haue bothe Order, and Co [...] secration. But Order, and Consecration you haue not. For who coulde geue that to you of al these Newe Ministers, how so euer els you cal them whiche he hath not him selfe? If it be Extraordinarie (as al that ye haue done hitherto is be­sides al good Order) shewe vs some Signe or Miracle. If you faile in al these, why ought not you to be put awaie?

Finally what can you answeare to that, Li. 1. Epist. 6 whiche maye be obiected to you out of S. Cyprians E­pistle to Magnus, touchinge Nouatian? It was at those daies a question, whether Nouatian Bapti­zed and offered, specially where as he vsed the Forme, Maner, and Ceremonies of the Churche. Cyprian denieth it. For he can not (saithe he) be compred a Bishop, who settinge at nought the Tradition of the Gospel, Eusebius Eccles. Hist. Li. 6. ca. 43. in Graeco. and of the Apostles, Nemini succedens à seipso ordinatus est, Succe­dinge no man is ordeined Bishop of him selfe. For by no meanes maye one haue or holde a Churche, that is not ordeined in the Churche.

This beinge so, we doo you no wronge, as ye complaine, in tellinge you and declaringe to the VVorlde, that touchinge the exercise of your Ministerie, ye doo nothinge orderly, or comely, but al thinges troublesomely and without Order. Onlesse ye meane suche Order, and comelinesse, as Theeues obs [...]rue amonge them selues in the distribution of their Robberies.

Lastly, M. Hardinges modestie. if ye allowe not euery man, yea and euery VVoman to be a Prieste, why driue ye not some of your felowes to recante, An odious Vntruthe: For touchinge the Ministerie of the Churche, vvee haue nei­ther Preached so, not vvritten so. that so haue Preached? VVhy allow ye the Bookes of your Newe Euangelistes, that so haue written?

The B. of Sarisburie.

Here hath M. Hardinge taken some paines more then ordinarie. He thought, if he coulde by any coloure make the worlde beléeue, wee haue neither Bi­shoppes, nor Priestes, nor Deacons this daie in the Churche of Englande, he might the more easily claime the whole right vnto himselfe. And in déede, if it were certaine, that the Religion, and Truthe of God passeth euermore orderly by Succession, and none otherwise, then were Succession, whereof he hath tolde vs so longe a tale, a very good substantial Argumente of the Truthe. But Christe saithe, Matthael▪ 23. In Cathedra Mosi sedent Scribae, & Pharisaei: By order of Succession, the Scribes, and Phariseis sitte in Moses Chaire. Annas, and Ca [...]p [...]as, touchinge Suc­cession, were as wel Bishoppes, as Aaron, & Eleazar. Of Succession, S. Paule saithe to the Faithful at Ephesus: Actor. 20. Scio, qu [...]d post discessum meum intrabunt Lupirapaces. Ex Vobis ipsis exurgent viri peruersa loquentes: I knowe that after my de­parture hence, R [...]ueninge Woulues shal enter, and Succede me. And out of your selues there shal (by Succession) springe vp menne speakinge peruersely. Therefore S. Hierome saithe, Dist 40. Non est Facile. Non Sanctorum filij sunt, qui tenent loca Sanctorum: They be not alwaies the Children of Holy Menne, that (by Succession) haue the places of Holy Menne.

Notwithstandinge the Pope him selfe wil saie, as it is before alleged, In Pa­pa si desint bona acquisita per merirum, Dist. 40. Non nos. sufficiunt, quae à Loci Praedecessore Praestantur: If the Pope wante good thinges gotten by his owne merites: the good thinges, whiche he hath ( by Succession) of Peter his Predecessour, are sufficient. And the Glose thereupon, [Page 128] Petrus fecit Papas Haeredes bouitatis suae: Succes­sion. Peter made the Popes Heires of his goodnesse by Succession. Dist 19. Sic Om­n [...]: In Gloss. And againe, Papa Sanctitatem recipit à Cathedra: The Pope recei­ueth his Holinesse ( by Succession) of his Chaire.

Sutche affiance sometime had the Scribes, and Phariseis in their Succession. Therefore they saide, Iohan. 8. Iohan. 9. VVee are the Children of Abraham: Vnto vs hath God made his promises: Arte thou greatter then our Father Abraham? As for Christe, wee knowe not, from whence he came, or what he can shewe for his Succession. And, when Christe beganne to refourme their Abuses, and Errours, they saide vnto him, By what Power dooest thou these thinges? Lucae. 20. Mare. 11. Beda in Luc. Lib. 5. Ca. 80. Cyrill. in Cathe­na in Luc. 20. And who gaue thee this Authoritie? where is thy Suc­cession? Vpon whiche woordes Beda saithe, Intelligi volunt, Diaboli esse, quod faci [...]: They woulde haue the People vnderstande (for that he had no solemne Succession) that al that he did, was of the Diuel. And Cyrillus frameth their woordes in this sorte: Tu Ortus ex Iuda commissos nobis fasces vsurpas: Thou beinge of the Tribe of Juda, (and therefore hauinge no right by Succession vnto the Priesthoode) takest vpon thee the office, that is committed vnto vs. Likewise Chrysostome imagineth, the Phariseis thus to saie: Chrysost. in Mat­thae. Homi. 39. Tu de Sacerdotali Familia natus non es: Senatus tibi hoc non coucessit: Caesar non donauit: Thou arte not of the house of Priestes: The Councel hath not graunted it thee: The Emperour hath not geeuen it thee. Thus to maineteine them selues in credite, for that they had Succession, and continuance from Aaron, and sate in Moses Chaire, they kepte Christe quite out of possession: and saide vnto him then, euen as M. Hardinge saithe nowe vnto vs: Who euer taught vs these thinges before thee? What ordinarie Succession, and Vocation haste thou? What Bishop admitted thee? Who confirmed thee? Who allowed thee?

Therefore, good Christian Reader, lette not these M. Hardinges greate woordes mutche abasshe thee. The Scribes, and Phariseis in the like cases vsed the like language longe agoe.

Touchinge the Churche of Rome, I wil saie nomore for this presente, but one­ly, that was spoken openly by Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto in the late Coun­cel of Tridente: Cornel. Episco. Bitontin. in Concil. Triden. Vtinam non à Religione ad Superstitionem, à Fide ad Infidelitatem, à Christo ad Antichristum, velut prorsus Vnanimes declinassent: VVoulde God they were not al gonne by consente togeather, from Religion to Superstition: from Faithe to Jufi­delitie: from Christe to Antichriste. These fewe woordes, consideringe either the speaker, or the place, where they were spoken, maye seeme sufficient. They are gonne from Faithe to Infidelitie: from Christe to Antichriste. And yet al other thinges failinge, they muste holde onely by Succession: and, onely bicause they sitte in Moses Chaire, they muste claime the possession of the whole. This is the right, and vertue of their Succession.

The woordes of Tertullian, M. Hardinge, whiche you haue here alleged, were spoken of certaine your Ancient Fathers, that had raised vp a Newe Reli­gion of them selues, as you haue also donne, without either Woorde of God, or example of the Apostles, and Holy Fathers. And therefore he saithe, not vnto vs, but vnto you, and sutche, as you be, Edant Origines Ecclesiarum suarum: Lette them shewe foorthe the Originalles of theire Churches. Euen so wée saie vnto you, shewe vs the Originalles of your Doctrine: Shewe vs any one of the Apostles of Christe, or of the Learned Catholique Doctours of the Churche, that euer saide your Priuate Masse: Shewe one at the leaste, either Greeke, or Latine. S. Au­gustine saithe, August. Epist. 165. of so many Bishoppes of Rome, there coulde not one be founde, that had benne a Donatiste. Euen so in like sorte saie wée to you, of al the same Bishoppes of Rome, there cannot one be founde, that euer agreed with M. Har­dinge in saieinge Masse. Or if there were any sutche, shewe vs his name, with other Circumstances, when, and where, and who were witnesses of the dooinge. [Page 129] Shewe vs your Originalles, Successiō ▪ Confirmation. M. Hardinge: Confesse the Truthe: Deceiue vs no lenger: It is a newe Diuise: ye haue it onely of your selues: and not by Succes­sion from the Apostles.

But wherefore telleth vs M. Hardinge this longe tale of Succession? Haue these menne their owne Succession in so safe Recorde? Who was then the Bi­shop of Rome nexte by Succession vnto Peter? Who was the Seconde? Who the Thirde? Irenae. li. 3. ca. 3. Euseb li. 5. cap. 5. Epiphan. L [...]b. 1. De Corpoerat. Optat. contra Donatist. lib. 2. Who the Fourthe? Irenaeus reckeneth them togeather in this order: Petrus, Linus, Anacletus, Clemens: Epiphanius thus, Petrus, Linus, Cletus, Clemens: Optatus thus. Petrus, Linus, Clemens, Anacletus. Clemens saithe, that he him selfe was nexte vnto Peter: And then muste the reckeninge goe thus: Petrus, Clemens, Linus, Anacletus. Hereby it is cleare, that of the foure firste Bishoppes of Rome, M. Hardinge cannot certainely telle vs, who in order Succeded other. And thus talkinge so mutche of Succession, they are not wel hable to blase their owne Succession.

I might farther saie, that Peters See Apostolike was ouer the Iewes, and not at Rome ouer the Heathene. Calat. 2. For so S. Paule saithe, Mihi concreditum est E­uangelium Praepuiij, sicut Petro Circumcisionis: Qui potens erat Petro in Apostolatu Circumcisionis, Potens erat in me inter Gentes: The Gospel of the Vncircumcision was committed vnto me, as the Gospel of the Circumcision vnto Peter: God that was mighty in Peter in the Apostleship of the Circumcision, was mighty in me emonge the Heathens. Ther­fore if the Pope this daie wil claime onely by Peters Title, and require nomore, then Peter had, then muste he séeke his Primacie emongst the Iewes, where Pe­ter had his Iurisdiction limited, and not at Rome emonge the Heathen Chri­stians, emonge whome, as S. Paule saithe, he had not mutche to doo.

Where you saie, that accordinge to the Ecclesiastical Canons, euer from the Apostles time, Bishoppes haue euermore benne Consecrate by three other Bi­shoppes, with the Confirmation of the Bishop of Rome, as if without him noman might be allowed to be a Bishop, ye shoulde not so vnaduisedly reporte so mani­fest Vntruthe. For, I beseche you, where be these Ecclesiastical Canons? Who diuised them? Who made them? Who gaue the Pope that singulare Priuilege, that no Bishop shoulde be admitted in al the Worlde, but onely by him? I remem­ber, your Canonistes haue saide, Felin▪ De Con­stitu. Ca. Cano­num S [...]atuta. Colum. 6. Ver. Fallit. Papa potest Solo Verbo facere Episcopum: The Pope maye make a Bishop onely by his VVoorde, without any farther Consecration. And Abbate Panormitane moueth a doubte, whether the Pope by the Fulnesse of his Power, maye depriue al the Bishoppes in the Worlde at one time. But thus they saie, that care not greatly, what they saie.

Verily, Panor. De Con­stitution. Trans­lato. Nilus a Gréeke Writer saithe thus, Constantinopolitanus Caesa [...]iensem Episcopum, alios (que) sibi subiectos ordina [...]: Romanus verò nec Constantinopolitanum, nec alium quenquam Metropolitanum: The Bishop of Constantinople doothe Order the Bishop of Caesaria, Nilus de Pri­matu Romani Pontificis. and other Bishoppes vnder him: But the Bishop of Rome doothe Or­der neither the Bishop of Constantinople, nor any other Metropolitane. But hereof I haue spoken more at large in my Former Replie to M. Hardinge. Certainely S. Cyprian willeth, Artic. 4. Diu. 25. Cyprian. Lib. 1. Epist. 4. that Sabinus, beinge lawfully elected, and Consecrate Bishop in Spaine, should contine we Bishop stil, yea although Cornelius, beinge then Bi­shop of Rome, would not Confirme him.

In déede, touchinge euery Metropolitanes seueral Iurisdiction, Gratianus no­teth thus: Dist 64. Cap. [...]in. Illud generaliter clarum est, qu [...]d si quis praeter Sententiam Metropolitani fuerit factus Episcopus, hunc magna Synodus definiuit Episcopum esse non Oportere: This is generally cleare, that if any man be made Bishop without the consente of his Me­tropolitane, the greate Councel ( of Nice) hath decreed, that sutche a one maye not be Bishop.

[Page 130] So likewise saithe Socrates of the Bishop of Constantinople: Confirmation. Consecra­tion. Praeter Senten­tiam Episcopi Constantinopolitani Electio Episcopi ne fiat: VVithout the Consente of the Bishop of Constantinople let noman be chosen Bishop. Here is a right specially re­serued to the Bishop of Constantinople, Socrates Lib 7. Cap. 28. [...]. and to euery Metropolitane within his owne Prouince: but of the Bishop of Romes Vniuersal right of Confirmation we heare nothinge. Neither doothe M. Hardinges Countrefeite Anacletus claime al the Bishoppes through the worlde, as belonginge to his Admission, but onely a parte. These be his woordes, Omnes Episcopi, qui huius Apostolicae Sedis Or­dinationi subiacent: Ana [...]let. Episto. 3. Dist. 95. Iuxta Sanctorum. Al the Bishoppes, that are vnder the Orderinge, or Confirmation of this Apostolike See. So likewise writeth Damasus to the Bishoppes of Illyri­cum, Par est, omnes, qui sunt in Orbe Romano, Magistros consentire: It is meete, that al the Teachers within the Romaine Jurisdiction, Sozomen. Lib. 6. Cap. 23. should agree togeather.

Againe, that you saye, A Bishop hath alwaies benne Consecrate by other thrée Bishoppes, whether it be true, or no, it maye wel be called in question, as beinge of your parte hitherto very weakely affirmed. Surely Petrus de Palude, one of your owne Doctours, Petr. de Palude, De Potestate A­post [...]l. woulde haue tolde you thus: In Ecclesia Vnus Episco­pus suff [...]cit ad alium Consecrandum: nec est, nisi propter Solennitatem ab Ecclesia in­uentum, vt Tres concurrant: In the Churche One Bishop is sufficient to Consecrate an o­ther: and it is nothinge els, but for the Solemnitie of the mater, that the Churche hath di­uised, that Three Bishoppes shoulde ioine togeather. Likewise Ioha [...]es Maior an o­ther of your owne Doctours woulde haue saide vnto you, Iohannes Maior in. 4. Sen [...]. Dist. 24. q. 3. Quis Ordinauit Pe­trum? Non dabunt Tres Ordinatores. Dico ergo, esse Constitutionem Humanam, qu [...]d Episcopus Ordinetur à Tribus. Paulus enim non quaesiuit Duos pro Ordinatione Titi, & Timothei: Who Ordered Peter, and made him Bishop? They cannot shewe me Three Bishoppes that ordered him. Therefore I saie, that a Bishop be Ordered by other Three Bi­shoppes, it is an Ordinance made by Man. For Paule, when he Ordered Titus, and Ti­motheus, he sought not aboute for other Twoo Bishoppes.

Whereas it farther pleaseth you, to calle for my Letters of Orders, and to demaunde of me, as by somme Authoritie, whether I be a Prieste, or no: what handes were laide ouer me: and by what Order I was made: I answeare you, I am a Prieste, made longe sithence, by the same Order, and Ordinance, and, I thinke, also by the same Man, and the same handes, that you, M. Hardinge, were made Prieste by, in the late time of that moste Vertuous Prince Kinge Edward [...] the Sixthe. Therefore ye cannot wel doubte of my Priesthoode, without like doubtinge of your owne.

Farther, as if ye were my Metropolitane, ye demaunde of me, whether I be a Bishoppe, or no. I answeare you, I am a Bishop, and that by the Frée and ac­customed Canonical Election of the whole Chapter of Sarisburie, assembled so­lemnely togeather for that purpose. Of whiche companie you, M. Hardinge, were then One, &, as I was enfourmed, beinge presente there in your owne personne emongest your Brethren, gaue free, and open consente vnto the Election. If you deite this, take heede, your owne breathe blowe not against you.

As for the impertinente tales of Ischyras, and Zacchaeus, they touche vs nothinge. They were none of ours: We knowe them not. Our Bishoppes are made in Fourme, and Order, as they haue benne euer, by Frée Election of the Chapter: by Consecration of the Archebishop, and other Three Bishoppes: and by the Admission of the Prince. And in this sorte, not longe sithence, the Pope him selfe was admitted: and, Platina in [...]e­ [...]erino Papa. as Platina saithe, without the Emperours let­ters Patentes was no Pope: as hereafter it shalbe shewed more at large.

Therefore wée neither haue Bishoppes without Churche, nor Churche without Bishoppes. Neither doothe the Churche of Englande this daie depend [...] [Page 131] of them, Succes­sion. whome you so often calle Apostates, as if our Churche were no Churche without them. They are no Apostates, M. Hardinge: That is rather your owne name, and of good righte belongeth vnto you. They are for a greate parte learned, and graue, and Godly menne, and are mutche ashamed to see your folies. Not­withstandinge, if there were not one, neither of them, nor of vs leafte aliue, yet woulde not therefore the whole Churche of Englande fice to Louai [...]e. Tertul­lian saithe, Nonne & Laici Sacerdotes sumus? Scriptum est, Regnum quoque, & Sa­cerdotes Deo, Tertullian. [...] Exhorta. ad Castitatem. & Patri suo nos fecit. Differentiam inter Ordinem, & Plebem constituit Ecclesiae Authoritas, & honor per Ordinis Consessum Sanctificatus à Deo. Vbi Eccle­siastici Ordinis non est Consessus, & Offert, & T [...]g [...] Sacerdos, qui est ibi solus. Sed & vbi Tres sunt, Ecclesia est, licet Laici. Vnusquisque enim de sua Fide viuit: And wee beinge Laiemenne are wee not Priestes? It is written, Christe hath made vs bothe a Kinge­dome, and Priestes vnto God his Father: The Authoritie of the Churche, and the Honour by the Assemblie, or Councel of Order Sanctified of God hath made a difference bitwene the Laie, and the Cleregie. Where as there is no Assemblie of Ecclesiastical Order, the Prieste beinge there alone (without the companie of other Priestes) doothe bothe Minister the Oblation, and also Baptize. Yea, and be there but Three togeather, and, though they be Latemenne, yet is there a Churche. For euery man liueth of his owne Faithe.

Againe, ye demaunde of me, what Bishoppe of Sacisburie euer sithence Au­gostines time maineteined this Doctrine. I might likewise, and by as good Au­thoritie demaunde of you, what Bishop of Rome euer before the same Englishe Augustines time maineteined your Doctrine? Or, as I saide before, what Bi­shop of Rome euer before that time either saide, or knewe your Priuate Masse? Touchinge the Bishoppes of Sarisburie, you your selfe haue already named twoo, Bishop Shaxton, and Bishop Capon, bothe Learned, and graue Fathers, and bothe Preachers, and professours of the Gospel. For the reste of the Bishops, that were before them, what Faithe they helde, and what they either liked, or misliked, by their writinges, or Sermons it dothe not greately appeare. I truste, they helde the Fundation, and liued, and died in the Faithe of Christe. If they had liued in these daies, and seene, that you see, they would not haue benne parta­kers of your wilfulnesse.

To be shorte, wée succede the Bishoppes, that haue benne before our daies. Wee are Elected, Consecrate, Confirmed, and Admitted, as they were. If they were deceiued in any thinge, wee succede them in place, but not in errour. They were our Predecessours, but not the Rules, and Standardes of our Faithe. Or rather, to sette aparte al comparison of Personnes, the Doctrine of Christe this daie, M. Hardinge, Succedeth your Doctrine: as the Daie Succedeth the Nighte: as the Lighte Succedeth Darkenesse: and as the Truthe Succedeth Errour.

Nowe for as mutche, as ye haue thought it so good, to examine the Petite de­gree of the Bishoppes of Sarisburie, I truste ye wil not thinke it il, if I al [...]tle touche the like in the Bishoppes of Rome: that wée maye thereby be the better hable to sée some of the branches of your Succession. Therefore shortly to saie, you knowe that Pope Marcellinus committed Idolatrie: that Pope Syluester. 2. was a Coniurer, and gaue him selfe whole Body, and Soule vnto the Diuel, and by the Diuels procuremente was made Pope: That Pope Zosimus for ambi­tion, and claime of gouernmente corrupted the Holy Councel of Nice: That Pope Liberius was an Arian Heretique: That Pope Leo, as appeareth by the Legende, was likewise an Arian: That Pope Coelestinus was a Nestorian He­retique: Pope Honorius was a Monothelite Heretique: Pope Iohn. 22. was re­prooued by Gerson, and the Schole of Parise for an Heretique: Petrarcha saithe, [Page 132] Rome is a Sanctuarie of al Heresies: Successiō of Popes. Lyra saithe, that many Popes haue fallen into Heresies: Nicol. Lyra in Matthae. Ca. 16. you know, that Pope Hildebrande, as he was charged by the Coun­cel of Brixia, was an Aduouterer, a Churcherobber, a Periured man, a Man­killer, a Sorcerer, and a Renegate of the Faithe: That Platina calleth the Popes sometimes in scorne, Platina in Ro­mano. 1. Pontificulos, Litle Petite Popes: sometimes Monstra, & Portenta, Monsters, and Vnnatural, and il shapen Creatures. Pope Adrian the fourthe was woonte to saie, Succedimus, non Petro in pascendo, sed Romulo in Parricidio: VVee Succede, not Peter in Feedinge, but Romulus in Killinge. And to leaue Dame Iohane the woman Pope, with many others moe of like Vertue, and Holinesse, as hauinge no pleasure in this rehersal: And, for as mutche as M. Hardinge began this mater with Sarisburie, to ende it with the same, Iohan. Sarisbu­rien. in Polycra­tico. Iohannes Sarisburiensis saithe, In Romana Ecclesia sedent Scribae, & Pharisaei: In the Churche of Rome (by Succession) sitte the Scribes, and the Phariseis.

This is M. Hardinges holy Succession. Though Faithe faile, yet Succession muste holde. For vnto sutche Succession God hath bounde the Holy Ghoste. For lacke of this Succession, for that in our Sees in the Churches of Englande, wée finde not so many Idolaters, Necromancers, Heretiques, Aduouterours, Church­robbers, Periured Personnes, Mankillers, Renegates, Monsters, Scribes, and Pharisies, as wée maie easily finde in the Churche of Rome, therefore, I trowe, M. Hardinge saithe, wée haue no Succession: wée are no Bishoppes: wée haue no Churche at al.

But S. Paule saithe, Faithe commeth (not by Succession, but) by hearinge: and hearinge commeth, (not of Legacie, or Enheritance from Bishop to Bishop, but) of the Woorde of God. They are not alwaies Godly, that Succede the Godly. Manasses succeded Ezechias: and Hieroboam succeded Dauid. By Succession the Turke this daie possesseth, and holdeth the foure greate Patriarkal Sées of the Churche, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioche, and Hierusalem. By Succession, Christe saithe, Matthae. 24. Desolation shal fitte in the Holy place: and Antichriste shal presse into the roume of Christe.

It is not sufficient to claime Succession of place: It behooueth vs rather to haue regarde to the Succession of Doctrine. Bernard. in Concilio Remen. S. Bernarde saithe, Quid prodest, si Canonice eligantur, & non Canonicè viuant? What auaileth it, if they be chosen in Or­der, and liue out of Ordere So saithe S. Augustine, August. Contra Donatist. Li. 6. 1. q. 3. vocantur Canes. Ipsum Characterem multi, & Lu­pi, & Lupis imprimunt: The outwarde marke, or right of a Bishop manie geue to Woulues, and he Woulues them selues. Therefore the Ancient Father Irenaeus geueth vs this good Councel: Eis, qui sunt in Ecclesia, Presbyteris, obaudire oportet, qui Suc­cessionem habent ab Apostolis, Irenae. Li. 4. Cap. 43. qui cum Episcopatus Successione, Charisma Ve­ritatis certum, secundum beneplacitum Patris, acceperunt: It becommeth vs, to obeie those Priestes in the Churche, whiche haue their Succession from y ^• Apostles: and togeather with the Succession of their Bishoprikes, accordinge to y ^• good wil of God the Father, haue receiued the vndoubted gifte of the Truthe. S. Cyprian beinge likewise charged for dissentinge from his predecessours, answeareth thus: Si quis de Antecessoribus meis, non hoc obseruauit, & tenuit, quod nos Dominus exemplo, & Magisterio suo do­cuit, potest simplicitati eius venia concedi: Nobis ver [...] ignoici non potest, qui nunc à Domino admoniti, & instructi sumus: If any of my Predecessours haue not obserued, and kepte the same, that our Lorde hath taught vs bothe by his example, and also by his Com­maundemente, his simplicitie maie be pardoned. But wee ( if wée doo the like) can hope for no pardonne, beinge nowe admonished, and instructed of our Lorde.

Compare the vse, and order of our Churches, M. Hardinge, with the Primi­tiue Churche of God, and ye shal easily see the right of our Succession. S. Cyprian [Page 133] saithe: Confes­sion not necessary. Si Canalis aquae, quae copiose prius, & la [...]g [...]r proflu [...]ba [...], subit [...] deficiat, nōne adfontē pergitur? &c. Hoc & nūc facere oporte [...] Dei Sacerdotes. Praecepta Diuina seruantes, vt in aliquo si nutauerit, Cyprian. ad Pompeium con­tra Epist. Ste­phani. & vacillauerit Veritas, ad originem Dominicam, & Euangelicam at (que) Apostolicam Traditionem reuertamur: & inde surgat actus nostri ratio, vnde & Ordo, & Origo surrexit: If the Pipes of y ^• Conduit, which before ranne with abundance, happen to faile, doo wee not vse to searche to the Head: &c. The Priestes of God keepinge Goddes commaundementes, must do the same: that if the Truthe haue fainted, or failed in any pointe, vvee returne to the very Original of our Lorde, and to the Tradition of the Gospel, and of the Apostles: that ther [...]hence wee maie take the discretion of our dooinges, from whence the Order it selfe, and Original firste beganne.

The B. of Sarisburie.

The difference, that is bitweene vs, and our Aduersaries in this whole ma­ter, is not great: sauinge that it liketh wel M. Hardinge, to buste him selfe with néedelesse quarrels, without cause. Three kindes of Confession are expressed vnto vs in the Scriptures. The First made secretely vnto God alone: The Seconde O­penly before y ^• whole Congregation: The Thirde Priuately vnto our Brother. Of the twoo former kindes there is no question. Touchinge the thirde, if it be discrete­ly vsed, to the greatter comforte, and satisfaction of the Penitente, without su­perstition, or other il, it is not in any wise by vs reproued. The Abuses, and Er­rours sette aparte, wée doo nomore mislike a Priuate Confession, then a Priuate Sermon.

Thus mutche onely wée saie, that Priuate Confession to be made vnto y ^• Mi­nister, is neither commaunded by Christe, Chrysost. ad He­braeos, homil. 30. nor necessarie to Saluation. And there­fore Chrysostome saithe, Non dico tibi, vt te prodas in publicum, ne (que) vt te accuses a­pud alios: Sed obedire te volo Propherae dicenti, Reuela Domino viam tuam: I wil thee not to bewraye thee selfe openly, nor to accuse thee selfe before others: But I counsel thee, to obeie the Prophete saieinge, Open thy waye vnto the Lorde.

And Gratian, hauinge thorowly disputed, and debated the whole mater of bothe sides, De Poeniten di [...] 1. Quamuit plenitudo. in the ende leaueth it thus at large: Cui harum sententiarum poti [...]s [...] adhae­rendū sit, Lectoris iudicio reseruatur: Vtra (que) enim fautores habet Sapientes, & Religiosos Viros: Whether of these twoo opinions it were better to folowe, it is leafte to the discretion of the Reader: For either side is fauoured bothe by Wise, and also by Godly menne. Therefore the Glose there concludeth thus: De Poeniten. dist. 5. In Poenitentia▪ In Glos. Meli [...]s dicitur, Confessionem institutam fuisse à quadam Vniuersalis Ecclesiae Traditione potiùs, quàm ex Noui, vel Veteris Te­stamenti Authoritate: It is better to saie, that Confession was Ordeined by somme Tradition of the Vniuersal Churche, then by the Authoritie of the Newe, or Olde Testamente. Like­wise saithe Theodorus sometime Archebishop of Canturburie a Gréeke borne: De Poeniten. dist. 1. Quidam. Quidam Deo solummodò confiteri debe [...]e peccata dicunt, vt Graeci: Some saie, wee are bounde to confesse our sinnes onely to God, as doo the Greci [...]s. De Poeniten dist. 5. In Poeniten. Whereupon the Glose noteth thus: Apud Graecos Confessio non est Necessaria: quia non emanauit ad illos Traditio talis: Emonge the Grecians Confession is not Necessarie, for that no sutche Tradi­tion euer came emongest them.

But what neede many woordes? M. Hardinge him selfe in the discourse here­of is forced to confesse, M. Har. soli. 71. [...] that the Expresse Terme of Auriculare, or Secrete Confession is Seldome mentioned in the Ancient Fathers. His tale had benne truer, if he had saide thus, The Expresse terme of Auriculare, or Secrete Confession is Neuer men­tioned in the Ancient Fathers.

[Page 134] Nowe to passe ouer certaine other M. Hardinges vnnecessarie talkes, hée groweth to the mater in this sorte:

M. Hardinge.

Concerninge the ministers of the Churche, wee saie that they open and shutte by dispensinge the Sacramentes, who haue theire vertue of the merites of Christe. For where as the Sacramentes haue issued and flowed out of the side of our sauiour Christe sleepinge on the Crosse, (as by allusion wee maie vse the woordes of the olde figure) wherewith the Churche is buylded, therefore in the Sacramentes of the Churche the efficacie of the Passion remaineth. And for that cause to the Mi­nisters also of the Churche, The Keie of the Church. who be dispensours of the Sacramentes, a certaine power is geeuen to remoue the barre, that excludeth vs from Goddes fauour, not through their owne, but through Goddes vertue and power, and merite of Christes Passion. And this power is called by a metaphore the Keie of the Churche, whiche is the Keie of Ministerie: whereof we shal speake hereafter. This power, so muche as concerneth releasse of sinnes, is exercised in the Sacramente of Penaunce to the benefite of them, For vvhom serueth the Sacramente of Penance. Nouatians denied Pe­nance. that after Baptisme be relapsed, and fallen into sinne againe. Of whiche power no Christen man doubteth, onlesse he holde the Heresie of the Nouatians, who were con­demned for Heretikes by the Churche, because they denied that Priestes in the Churche had authoritie to remitte sinnes, This sauou­reth of vntruth: For Nouatus denied not pri­uate, but open Penaunce. and so denied the Sacramente of Penaunce.

The B. of Sarisburie.

That dewly receiuinge the Holy Sacramentes ordeined by Christe, wée re­ceiue also y ^• Remission of Sinnes, it is not any way denied. For the Substance of al Sacramentes is the Woorde of God, 2. Corin. 5. whiche S. Paule calleth Verbum Reconci­liationis, The Woorde of atonemente. This Woorde is the Instrumente of Remis­sion of Sinne: The Sacramentes are the Seales affixed vnto the same: The Prieste is the meane. Augustin in Iohan. tracta. [...]. S. Augustine saithe, In Aqua Verbum mundat. Detrahe Verbum: quid est Aqua, nisi Aqua? In the Water it is the VVoorde of God, that ma­keth cleane. Take the VVoorde awaye: and what is VVater els, but VVater? Hereof wée shal haue cause to saie more hereafter.