GEORGE GIFFORD.
To condemne and ouerthrow read prayer, ye bring as the ground or foundation of all your matter, this Sentence, GOD is a Spirit and to be vvorshipped in Spirit. Iohn. 4. This Scripture in deede is cleare and strong to cut downe al Carnal worship, as disgreeing from the nature of GOD. And if any mayntaine that the very bodily action of reading is the worship of God, it may fitly be alleadged against them, &c.
IOHN GREENWOODS ANSWER. Wisdome is Iustified of her Children.
IT is agreed vpon and consented vnto on both sides, that seeing God is a spirit, and onely requireth such to worship him, as worship him in spirit and truth: all carnall worship is cut downe hereby, of what sort soeuer, as disagreeing from the nature of God: And that all fantastical deuises of men; namely, whatsoeuer is not warranted in his worde, is carnall worship, a wearisomnes vnto him, and lothsome in his sight: So that no man ought to intermedle, attempt, or practize anie thing in shew of worship whereof they haue not sure grounde of his worde: For euen our God is a consuming fire.
Now to put away all your ( bodily) distinctions and earthly cauils, I still affirme (as I haue proued) the stinting, imposing mens writings vpon publique assemblies, to haue them read ouer by number and stint, or any other way, as a worship of God in stead of true inuocation, is a meere deuise of man, and so carnall worship; as also all other reading of mens writinges publiquely or priuatly in this abuse, for praying to God. Yet say you to apply this Scripture Iohn. 4.22.23 in this manner against read prayer, is friuolous, where I appeale to all mens consciences, for the weight therof. It is friuolous, you say, except I can proue that a man cannot pray by the spirit of GOD with sighes and groanes vpon a booke, or when prayer is vttered after a prescript forme &c. At the first step you go about to alter the question. All our prayers ought to be vttered after a prescript forme, euen that perfect rule and forme our Sauiour gaue to his Disciples and al poste [...]ities: But this is nothing to the matter.
For the other which is nothing but a begging of the question. I alleaged certayne reasons to this effecet. First that those sighes and groanes in reading instead of praying were not of fayth, seeing in praying the sighes and groanes that proceede of faith, minister matter to praye without a booke. Secondly that you did but barely affirme the question in calling it prayer by the spirit when one doth read, seing reading is not praying at al: for as I then alleadged, to inuocate the name of God in spirit, is by the worke of the spirit to bring fourth of our hearts praier to God, which is than in truth when yt agreeth to Gods word. But reading is another matter, namely a receauing of instruccion into the heart from the booke. Out [Page 8] of the first Mr. GIFFORD maketh men beleeue he hath fetched two heresies; the one a perfection of faith, the other that faith cannot be ioyned vnto, or stand vvith anie outvvard helpes for the encrease therof. Litle marueile, he found so m [...]nie heresies in our whole writinges, that could finde two or three in my first reason: but that you may remember your self better (though you had two yeares to consider) I will bring the wordes before you againe, if peradventure you may have grace to call backe yourself. I said if the sighes and groanes (in that kinde of praying) were of faith, yt would, minister matter without a booke: this sentence I may confirme by manie testimonies of scripture, that no peruerted spirit can gainesay or resist: the scripture teacheth vs euery where, that in praying the spirit onlie helpeth our infirmities, no other helpes mentioned or can be collected in the present action of prayer through the Scripture. He hath sent into our hearts the spirit of his Sonne crying: Rom. 8.26. Gal. 4.6. 2. Cor. 4.13. ABBA Father. vve beleeue, therfore vve speake. Yet here is not anie shew of perfectiō of faith, but of the contrary, praying for our wantes. But this may be gathered, that God onely accepteth the fruits of his owne spirit in prayer, and requireth no more of anie, but that euerie one according to the proportion of faith, pray vnto him, as occasion in them requireth. Nowe to conclude that because in praying we neede not a booke to speake for vs, when the heart it self and booke of our Conscience speaketh with God; that therefore fayth neuer needeth instruction, but is perfect, were sclanderous, false, and senselesse. The cause then of these heresies proceed hereof, that your selfe Mr. GIFFORD would needes frame two syllogismes, and in the moodes of your malice, cō straine the proposition of the present action in praying, to a general sentence of all times and actions, though both our question here was of the verie action of praying, and in the conclusion of that very poynt within six lynes after this, you had these wordes; Euen in the time of their begging at Gods hands; so that these heresies must be Mr. Giffords and not myne, seeing they are found to be coyned of his idle brayne, and godles heart, only to defame the trueth.
But (say you) the most part are ignorant, weake, short of memorie, &c. therefore need al helps to stir them vp to pray, &c. where, by your own confession, reading is not praying, but a help to stir vp to pray. And euen hereupon all our errours arise, that you cannot discerne the difference of spirituall gifts, with the distinct vse of them. We doubt not but before prayer, and all the dayes of our life we haue neede of helps of instruction to praye aright, and for the fitnes of the mind and bodie, often fasting, reading, meditating, etc. are great helpes to go before to humble our selues in praying: but in the present action of prayer when the heart is talking with God, the eyes, hands, etc. with attention lift vp to heauē, al the powers of our soules and bodies conuersant with God, to take a booke and read cannot be called in this action a help, but a confounding of the mind, of Gods ordinances, and a doing we know not what, though before and after, it be an excellent meanes ordeyned of God, to instruct vs to pray and al other dueties.
As for the confirmation you talke of, where I alleadged that a troubled [Page 9] minde is the penne of a readie writer / therfore needeth not a booke to speake for yt in the action of praying: By troubled minde i vnderstood such a minde / as is presētly moued with the sight of some sinne / or vrged by other occasion: Psalm 5 [...] 17. a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart: ād not such a minde as in dispayre or doubt ys perplexed: and that the heart which is moued in faith with present occasion to call vpon God is the penne of a readie writer / (that is) hath matter ād wordes enough without a booc [...] to vtter yt owne wantes / we may reade throughout the Psalmes. My throte is dry (saith David) I am vvearie with crying &c. But here againe instead of answere / you tell me / I runne vppon the rocke of an hereticall opiniō of perfection: Wherin i wonder (but that i perceaue your right eye is blinded) you should be so carelesse what you say / nay what after two yeares studie you put in prynt. Doth it follow / that because the heart / moued with occasion through the worke of faith hath wordes and matter enough in praying without a booke to speake for yt / that therfore faith is perfect? let equal Iudges cōsider.
Here you say manie are so troubled & perplexed in minde, that they cannot pray till they haue some consolation by the direction of others; which whē they cannot haue, reading vpon a booke is a notable help, I allowe al this and agree / if you would make reading one thing / and prayer an other / divers exercises of the spirit etc. But in the verie action of praying to haue an other speake vnto vs never so good wordes of exhortation / were but a confounding of the minde and actiō / and an abuse of both those holie exercises. Euen so / by your owne comparison / reading vpon a booke in the action of praying / seing we cannot do both at once. Yt is the Spirit of God in the verie action of prayer that helpeth our infirmities. David in praying finding his soule heauie / stirreth vp himself thus. My soule whie art thou cast downe, Psalm 4 [...] ende 43 whie art thou disquieted within me, waite on God; For I will yet giue him thākes, my presēt help and my God. He had a troubled minde / his mouth wanted no wordes to prouoke the Lorde to heare his complaint / and his heart to waite vpon the Lorde / and so through all the Psalmes you shall finde the conversing of the soule with God to be such / as yt were a mockery to think reading vpon a booke could haue anie place in that action / or that anie mans writing could lay out the present estate of the soule with the passions therof. The Priest may say / my booke whie art thou so euill prynted, for whē they reade the heart cānot reasō and talke with God.
To the second poynt / which was but your bare assuming of the question / to say a man may pray by the spirit vpon a booke &c. I alleadged that to worship God in spirit / is / when the inward faith of the heart bringeth fourth true invocation / etc. this you graunt to be most true / and that none other is accepted of GOD / then that which proceedeth from the inward faith of our owne heart: But you think that reading vpon a booke is to bring fourth of the heart true inuocatiō. This cannot be if we consider the difference betweene proseuche and anagnosis prayer and reading / the one being a powring fourth of vowes / petitions / supplications / the other a receaving into the soule of such things as we reade. This therfore i leaue to all mens consciences to be considered / whether [Page 10] the matter we reade can be said a powring fourt of the heart / the whole vse of those divers actions through the whole Bible shew yt cannot. Now where I said that you teach men insteade of powring fourth their hearts / to help them selves with matter and wordes out of a booke / you say I speake fondlie and foolishlie / etc. Mine answeare now is / yt is well I lyed not / if I had said you compell men to reade vpon a booke in all your publique assemblies / certaine wordes of your owne writings by number and stint / from yeare to yeare / and day to day the same / instead of powring out their hearts before the Lorde for their present wāts. I had not lyed. Now let all men by that which hath bene said consider the grossnes of yt / and so the follie remayneth to your self. But to help this matter / and to deliuer your self conningly in such strayte / you sa [...] you wish all men to vse the help of the booke▪ that they migt the better powre fourth their hearts vnto God / being such as are not throughly able. First you graunt here / the prayers read vpon the booke is not the powring fourth of the heart / but ought to be vsed only as an help wherbie you graunt the whole question / and furder all your assemblies haue had no other invocation of Gods name this many yeares / but a help to teach thē to powre fourth their hearts. But whether mens writings may be read in the publique assemblies to this vse / we shall after make manifest / Here yt is graunted but an help / and not the powring fourth of the heart. And to whom is yt an help? to such as are notable to pray. Here eyther you must confesse your whole ministerie is vnable to pray / or that they transgresse in this high worship of GOD: for in an other place you graunt in all your assemblies this reading is vsed of mens writings for prayer / thus you may behold your best worship to be nothingh but a help to teach you to pray.
Where I said that you teach men to fetch the cause of their sorrowing from the booke / euen in their tyme of begging at GODS hand / you say I speake fondly to call that the cause / which is the manifestacion of the cause etc. You here forget your artes / Is ther no more cau [...]es then one? if yt be the instrumentall cause / it is sufficient to prove / that if your Mininisters had not their booke / they had nothing to aske / or els asking that which is in the booke / they aske not that wich before was in their owne heartes / so not comming heauie loaden / they goe emptie away / and leave the matter in the booke as they founde yt / till the next day / and then sing the same songe. But true prayer is / when the heart is first prepared / and moued with the sight of their wants as the child that asketh breade: So we should not pray of custome / but aske the verie thing wherof our heart feeleth the want [...]et. Your comparison againe betwixt the being stirred vp by a Sermon / and stirred vp by reading sheweth / that your self will not make the reading the powring fourth of the heart.
Ther is no question but the exercise of reading is chieflie for instructiō and encrease of knowledge / and meditating is not the same / nether can be said to be al the vse of reading / though we denie reading to be praying: but because we are forbidden contētion about wordes / and I have offred you [Page 11] as much wrong in saying you denyed reading to be for meditation at all / I will proceede to the more necessarie doctrines. Also for the controversie of Canonicall and Apocryphall / we shall speak in due place.
Thus (say you) you have answered nothing at all vnto this Commandement giuen by our saviour Christ to vse that prescript forme of prayer, say, Our Father &c. but by shift & cauill &c. Here you thinke you haue put me to a plunge / your self needed nothing doubt / but that I allowed the Cōmaundement holie and good / and to extend to al Christians / as well as to the Apostles / namely / to vse that prescript forme of prayer as the perfect patterne and direction to all mens true prayers. But you I trust will make difference betwixt a forme to all prayers / and praying / or prayer. And here you vehemently vrge me to answeare you / before I see you conclude any thing frō the place / and so I should runne into follie / to answeare a matter before I heare yt. In your first entrance of this discourse / you were rounde in your Syllogismes, by two at once to wrast my wordes / and can find none for yourself / Yt seemes your conscience is witnes the matter would not hang togeather. And me thinkes you had never more neede to haue shewed what you would drawe from this place Luke 11. seing I either mistooke you last time / or els you make a simple collectiō: which was this: Christ said to his Disciples, when you pray say Our Father. &c. and not when you meditate say Our Father. Now what would you conclude of this / except as I said that Christ would not haue them meditate that Scripture: But this I perceaue was not your meaninge: now I partlie thinke your Argument should be (if the sworde were not brokē in the sheath) thus▪ Christ commaunded his Disciples when they prayde to say Our Father, &c. therfore to be tyed to reade ouer or say by roate certeine wordes, is law full praying. For the first / that our Sauiour Christ tyed no man or commaunded none to say ouer those verie wordes when they prayde / but to pray according to that forme / after that maner as Matth. 6. I manifested in my first writing 1. that our Sauiour did not commaunde vs to vse those wordes. 2 that Matth. 6. doth not keepe the same wordes / nor that number of wordes which Luke 11. doth 3. that he did not say / read these wordes when you pray / or say these wordes by roate. After all which reasōs slilye passed away in both your answeres / you come with your bare affirmation / that he commaunded those wordes to be said ouer by roate or reading: yea a litle after you say / it is false to say that he commaunded not the verie wordes to be said ouer when we pray. And you furder conclude / that because Christ commaunded his Disciples to say ouer those wordes / therfore all mens writings in the forme of praier may be brought into the publique assemblies to be read for praier / being agreable to the worde. To which I āswere that seing no mās writings are without error / yt is pernitious and blasphemous doctrine you collect. First because you make mens writings of equal autority with the forme of praier which Christ hath prescribed 2 for that you gyue mē as much liberty and authority to frame and impose their Liturgies as Christ had to set downe a forme of praier / he being Lord of the house. The wickednesse of which collections you shall neuer be able to answeare.
[Page 12]And because you here vrge me therunto / I will make answeare to your two places of Scripture / wherwith by false interpretation you deceaue the simple / which taken from you / your matter is nothingh but cauilling: The places are these / Luce 11. Nom. 6. and because the one explanes the other / and your collections the same from both / I will beginne with nombers 6.32.33.34. etc. Thus shall you bless the Children of Israell saying, the Lorde bless thee & keep thee, &c. Here you say they were commaunded to vse the verie wordes prescribed, in all their blessings. This I say is not true / for the Hebrew worde is Coh Tebaracu. thus shall you blesse: wher the worde Coh is an aduerb of similitude / as we say / after this maner; which cannot be to say the same / but according to the same instructions. This worde Coh is ysed throughout the Bible in this maner / in all the Prophets whē they say / thus saith the Lorde: where the summe of their prophesies are onlie recorded to vs by the holy Ghost / ād not all the wordes. Againe this blessing is vsed in the Psalmes and Chronicles in prayer / for the people / in manie other wordes. 1. Sam 1.17 Ely blessed Hanna in other wordes / etc. And where by L [...]ce 11.2. yt is recorded / that our Sauiour Christ commaunded his Disciples / when you pray, say our Father, &c. yt is playne by the doctrines following. 4.5.6.8.11. verses / that Christ tyed no man to the verie wordes saying ouer / for he teacheth them to aske their particular wants / as a childe asketh breade or an egg of his Father: also to importune the Lorde for our particular wants. But to make this place more playne / the same holy Ghost in the 6. of Mathew 9. verse saith when you pray, say thus, Our Father, &c. where the greeke word houtos hath the same signification that the Hebrew worde Coh had which is / after this maner: and cannot be referred to the verie wordes saying ouer / wherupon Mr. Calvin vpon those wordes saith / Noluit filius dei prescribere quibus verbis vtendum sit: The Sonne of God would not prescribe what wordes we must vse. Now consider how falslie Mr. Gifford hath interpreted these Scriptures / to say the Priests wer commaunded to vse the verie wordes / and that Christ commaunded to vse the verie wordes. As for his collections / that therfore mens writings may be imposed vpō publique assemblies by stint and number to be prayde, vt is intollerable error, and bringeth in all popery.
Here I must call all men that reade this fruictlesse discourse to be witnes of Mr. Giffords abuse of his tongue / to the defacing of Gods truth. In his Epistle he proclaymed / that I called all men Idolaters; which you shall perceaue to be his owne wordes / and to that end I will breifly repeat yt. In my first writing I affirmed the reading imposed Liturgies by stint ād limitation instead of true invocation / as also all reading mēs writings for praying / to be idolatrye. In his answeare he said / he could not see by what collour yt could be called Idolatrie, or maintayned out of Gods worde so to be; but yt seemes the penners of these things take euery sinne against the first table of the lawe, to be Idolatry: if they do so (saith he) and with all do hold that no Idolater shalbe saued, then doubtlesse all are lost, &c. Tothis ignorāt excursorie I answered / that all false and devised worship by mans inuention was Idolatrye / as the first and second commandemens [Page 13] did testifie: And so admit all the breaches of the first table were not idolatrye / yet reading of mens writinges instead of praying must needes be idolatry / seing yt is a transgression of the second Commandement. Furder (though I needed not have followed his emptye head / euen a cloude without water) yet I proceeded to proue / that no idolater could be saved but by repentance for their knowne sinne / and craving pardon with David for their hidden sinnes and secreat faults. Psalm 119 Moreouer (said I) do you thinke anie man is free from all inward and outward idolatrye / seing we cannot keep one Commaundement / and in some things we sinne all. In which wordes i plainelie reproued his grossnes that concluded all men idolaters which committed any idolatrye / and that no idolater could be sauld / and distinguished betweene the sinne of ignorance / weaknes / and inperfection etc. in Gods children / and open professed obstinate idolatrie. Yet this godles man would lay to my chardg / that i should call all mē idolaters / wheras i neuer vsed such a worde in all my writings / But only answered his folly in this running out from the question / they were his owne wordes that brought this vpon his owne heade / by concluding / that if euery sinne against the first table were idolatrie / and no idolater could be saued / then all are lost / let the grosnes then be his and not mine. And i leaue it to the consideration of all men / whether i may not say / that they which trāsgresse the first or second Commaundements / do commit Idolatrie / without absurdity. But saith he though yt be so / yet the Scripture calleth not the godly / murtherers / Idolaters / etc. for the reliques of sinne remayning. I answere that therfore your former absurd cauilling where you said / if we hold it Idolatrie etc. ys by your owne mouth fully answered.
But to auoyde this foyle / he hath an other euasion. I thought (saith he) we had reasoned about such grosse idolatrie as a Church is to be condēned and forsaken / which is defiled therwith. Here againe you misreport me: I neuer reasoned to that end in this whole discourse / but only laboured to shew all men this error of reading mēs writinges instead of praying / that they might learne how to conuerse with God and their owne Conscience / in prayer. And what mendes wil you make for this sclandering and defacing of the truth / to all the world? all that I desire is your repentance and amendement / which God graunt vnto you if you you be his.
It followeth in your booke thus: But seeing you confess tha [...] all men be Idolaters, that is touching the remanents of sinne, it must needs follow there is no Church free from spots, &c. This worde idolaters must still be yours and then i willinglie graunt / that no man liuing is free from idolatrie / concerning the reliques of sinne: Also that no Church vpon earth can be without spot vpon earth: So that now / by your owne cōfessiō / I pleade not for perfection in this life / though the more we want / the more we ought to endeuour. With what face then could you publish me an Anabaptist in your Epistle / and out of one mouth giue contrarie sentence? Doth your ordinary teach you to cast out such bitter waters of vntruthes? was yt possible I should hold al men Idolatres / and some men without committing of sinne after regeneration / especially to mainetaine both such heresies as you gyve [Page 14] out? Well consider your self / before the Lord call you to accompt for defacing his truth / and pleading for Baal. I grant / yea / I were not of God if I should speake otherwise / that the deare servāts of God fall into most lothsome sinnes after regeneration / that the riches of Gods mercy might appeare in their repentance / through the worke of his grace. Then you reason thus: if ther be allwaies spottes and imperfectnes in the true Church vpon earth / then al your Argumēts you bring against the Church of England / are of no force / except you will mainetaine a perfection. M [...] ne answeare is / I will not meddle with your Church to proue yt a false Church in this treatise / but refer you to Mr. Barrowes refutation of Mr. Gifford▪ him that handleth that part of your booke. Yet I must tel you your argument is verie simple: For after the same maner you migt reason thus: If ther be no true Church without spottes vpon earth, then the Church of Rome is the true Church, for yt hath manie spottes, & you all Schismatiques: Againe you assume the matter you should proue. It wil be proued against you / that you haue not Ecclesiā a people called fourth of the world to the obedience of Christ: Then / that the spottes of your Church are Egiptian vlcers incurable running botches. But I purposed not to deale with your Church / only my mind is to shew the vnlawfullnes of this readingh and imposing mens writings vpon mens Consciences in stead of true praying. Of which sinne the Lord giue you and this whole land grace to repent / that so men may learne more feruently to cal vpon God.
No Apocrypha must be brought into the publique assemblies: for there onlie GODS vvorde & liuely voyce of his owne graces must be hearde in the publique assemblies. But mens vvritings & the reading them ouer for prayer are Apocrypha, therfore may not be brought into the publique assemblies.
First touching the Proposition, No Apocrypha is to be brought into the publique assemblies: What can be more false? Apocrypha is opposed against Canonicall: If nothing may be brought into the publique assemblies but Canonicall Scripture, then the Sermons and prayers of Pastors are to be banished &c.
IN the answere of this / you will needes oppose against both Proposititions / and yet have nothing to say / if not to royle the doctrines deliuered with your feete / least others should drinke therof. The part of a wise man had beene to lay his hand on his mouth. In the first Proposition [Page 15] you would oppose the worde Apocrypha against the liuely voyce of Gods graces when you see I said onlie / that no Apocrypha might be brought into the publique assemblies. And furder to explane my minde / least you should willingly finde such a cauill / I added this reason for there only Gods worde & the liuely voyces of his graces are to be heard: Where I acknowledged those liuelie voyces to be Gods ordinance / yet nether to be called Apocrypha nor Canonicall. How can you say then I would haue these / or that these are banished / if all Apocrypha writings be banished the publique assemblies? Yet as I told you / I take Apocrypha to be all writings / but the Canonicall Authentique Scriptures. But (say you) then I will exclude the Paraphrases vpon the Scriptures and the Psalmes in metre etc. Affirme you them to be Apocrypha as you do / and can do no other / and I will through Gods grace proue they ought not to be brougt into the publique assemblies. First / no mans writinghs are giuen to the Church by testimonie of Gods spirit / and we are onlie commaunded to heare what the spirith saith: Rev. 2 7.11 therfore though mens writings be permitted to be read priuatlie of them that will / and therupon called Apocrypha (that is hidden) they may not be brought into the publique assemblies. Secondly no mans writinhs are without errour and imperfections / therfore not to be brougt into the publique assēblies: 1. Tim 3.15 The Church is the pillar of truth. Thirdlie the Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Prophets and the Apostles Christ Iesus being the cheif corner stone / and not vpon mēs writinges / Therfore mens writins may not be brougt into the publique assemblies. Other foundatiō can no man laye. &c. Ephes. 2.20. and 1. Cor. 3. Fourthlie if we might bring in anie mens writings into the publique assemblies / thē all mens writings which we iudge agreable to the Scriptures. But this is forbidden / Ecclesiastes 12.11.12. My proof of the first Proposition to this: If anie mens writings are to be brougt into the publique assemblies by Gods commaundement because they are agreable to the Scriptures / as you in an other place alleadge / then all that are thought agreable to the Scriptures ought of necessitie by the same commandement / and if ther be no commaundement / then none are to be make Authentique which God hath not made Authentique / For that were to set man in the place of God. Gallat 3.15 [...]ebr 2.3.4. and 9.14. Matt 5.18 2. Timot 3.15.16.17. rev 22.18.19▪ No mans writinges cary that maiestie / that the penne of the holy ghost. No mans writinges are Cecuromenai, Authentique, confirmed by signes and wonders from heauen / sealed by Christes blood / that not one worde or title shalbe vnfulfilled / The Scriptures are all sufficient. All men must walke by that one rule; To thinke ther were not rules ynoug prescribed by the Lord for his house were blasphemous and papisticall. Now for the explication / interpretatiō etc. and speach vnto God in prayer: God hath giuen giftes vnto men to pray and prophecye / and ordeyned his ministerye of Pastors / Teachers / whose liuely voice is appointed to be the mouth of God vnto the people / and of his people vnto himself / in the publique assemblies. And th [...]se graces are not Apocryphall, for no prophecie of the Scripture is of priuate interpretatiō idias epiluseos: to euery one to giuē the manifestatiō of te spirit to proffit withal. 2. Pet. 1.20 1. Cori 12.7. Most excellēt mē serue but their tyme in the publique assēblies. Now I may cōclude a I beganne.
[Page 16] That only Gods holy word & the liuely graces of his holy Spirit are to be heard & offred vp vnto him in the publique assemblies.
Where then in way of answere to the Minor Proposition, you say you see not how our speach vnto God should be Apocrypha: It answeareth not me / who deny an other mans writing to be our speach in prayer vnto God But conuinceth your self by your owne mouth / thus: True prayer ys not Apocrypha, but all mens writings are Apocrypha; Therfore mēs writings is not true prayer. Here when you haue nothing to say for your self / you woulde make me belieue that I accōpt the Psalmes and the other formes of prayer in the Scripture to be Apocrypha when they be read / though a litle before you confessed / you had in your last writing donne me wrong therin. I do accōpt the reading of thē for praying / to be a grosse and superstitious abuse of thē / yet thē to be holie and canonical Scripture. And here you haue flatly ouerthrowē your self: saying the worde Apocrypha is vsed with vs for that which is not Gods vndoubted worde vnto vs: And in your last writing / which should have beene your answere / you said / God speaketh to vs only by the Canonicall Scriptures. Now seing you would make your liturgies ād deuised formes of prayer / helpes and instructiō / and yet cannot make them Canonical / or Gods vndoubted truth / they must not be brought into the publique assemblie / much lesse imposed by lawe vpon the Consciences of all men. And here remember all your Liturgies are cast out of the doore: besides that / you have not made in both writinges one direct answere to this most firme Proposition: which I will still leaue vpon you / thus.
Only the Canonicall Scriptures & liuely voice of Gods owne graces are to be brought into the publique assemblies for doctrine & prayer.
But mēs writings are neyther Canonicall Scripture nor the liuely voice of Gods graces in such as he hath appointed to speake in the publique assemblies.
Therfore no mans writings, may be brought into, nor imposed vpon the publique assemblies.
Thus migt I make an ende with this vayne mā / considering the whole matter is proved against him / all that followe being but repetitions of these former cauills / but that I must cleare my self of his vnconscionable sclanders.
We must do nothing in the worship of God without warrant of his worde. [...]ut read praiers haue no warrant in his worde. Therfore read prayers are not to be vsed in the worship of God.
To this I answere at the first, that it is a greate audacitie to affirme that there is no vvarrant in the vvorde for read prayers. vvhen ther be sundry testimonies to vvarrant the same, vnless you vvill make difference [Page 17] betvveene that which a man readeth vpon a booke, and that which he hath learned out of the booke. Furder I said, I do not remember that euer I haue read that God commaunded in the Scriptures the prayer shalbe read vpon a Booke, &c.
SEing you haue indeed not answered one reason or proof I alleadged in my last writing▪ but with much euill conscience (as the handling sheweth) perverred them / I will leaue them to be iudged of them that shall see my writing. And here / seing you would not prynt yt / I will answere your cheif obie [...]o [...]. First then you graunt / that if I put difference betweene reading vpō the booke / and that which he hath learned out of the booke / mine Argument to sounde: For by your owne confession / God hath not giuen anie Commandement to read prayer, and so yt hath no warrāt. Whervpō I gayne thus much: First / tha [...] they which impose read prayer vpon the Church / do that wherof they haue no warrant in the worde / and that in the high seruice of God. Then that they which reade vpon a booke for praying / do that wherof they haue no warrant in Gods woorde: whervpon all your Ministers must leaue reading their s [...]nted prayers vpon the booke / or els stand vnder Gods wrath▪ and all that so pray with them / which wilbe a fearefull reckoning if they repent not their sinne shewed them. And although our question he cheiflie concerning the reading of mens writings instead of praying / yet I am content the other abuse of the Scriptures be included also though I make not both in the same height of sinne / as shall appeare in my seuerall reasons. As an vnconstant man then / you in the latter ende of the answere to this Argument would cal backe agayne that / which you here haue granted: Namely / that there is no Commandement to reade prayer vpon a booke for praiyng.
Of the contrary thus you reason: The people of God did reade the Psalmes vpon a booke whe [...] they did singe, therfore men may reade vpon a booke vvhen they pray. I deny your Argument: besides that all men may see your vnstablenes in denying and affirming with one breath / you now go about to make reading of prayer a Commandement: thus you prove yt. Singing (say you) is a part of prayer. Singing may be read vpon a Booke▪ therfore praier may be read vpon a booke. Admit that Singing were a part of prayer / yet doth it not followe that all prayer may be read vpon a booke. But you speake like an ignorant man to say that Singing is praier / seing they are twoo diuers actiōs and exercises of our faith [...] the one neuer read for the other / nor said to be a part of the other through the Scriptures / but are playnely distinguished 1. Cor. 14.15. what is it then. I will pray with the spirit / bu [...] y will pray with vnderstanding / I wil sing with the spirit etc. agayne / if you be sad / pray / and if you be merye sing Psalmes / pro [...]xon ai and psalo. I will pray / and I wil sing are diuers exercises of the faith / if a man should say reading a chapter of the scripture and prophecying were all one / were he not wide? Ian. 5.13. Euē so euery [Page 18] part of Gods service is not prayer. I graunt we are euery where commaunded to singe Psalmes vnto God. And alleadged that place of the Apostle to the Ephes. 5.19. Speaking to your selves in Psalmes and Himnes and Spirituall songes / etc. ād that of the Colo. onlie to this end / that in Psalmes singing we do not alwaies speake vnto God / as in those Psalmes which are only instructions and prophesies / in the 1. and 2. Psalmes you have not one worde spoken vnto God. Againe / as all reading of the prayers in the Scriptures is not praying or speaking vnto God / so the reading or singing of Psalmes I tooke to haue beene a speaking to our selves a stirring vp of Gods graces in vs etc. But I do not now / nor did not then hold yt so / in al Psalmes singing. And where you say I purposely left out the latter part in both places / which was this sing vnto God with a grace in your heartes / the Lorde knowes I had no purpose to injurie the Scripture / nor maintayne an vntruth / But thought we might do those thinges with a grace to God in our heartes / which were not properly ād directly a conversing by thought ād worde with him alone / but one thing might haue kept you frō crying out / heresie / in that I added this / that I would not stād vpō that reason / but desired to knowe yt furder. But how vniustly could you nūber this for an heresie maynteyned of vs al in your Epistle / that we should denie that Psalmes should be songe vnto God. The Lorde keepe me frō such errour. And a wofull Phisition you are / if I had bene in such errour, For the 102. Psalme I never denied: but that yt was a most excellent Psalme penned by Daniell or some other PROPHET / ād gyuē to the whole Church to be sōge or read as other Psalmes / in the forme of praier: But you must prove that the Church did vse yt as you say / to reade yt ouer for praying / or were cōmaūded so to do. This is proof inoug they did not / because yt is a Psalme. Now thoug the Church speake manie tymes in the singular number / yet it is expressed in some other verse that yt is so. But now admit that you could proue that the psalmes were read insteade of or for invocatiō / which you shall neuer be able to do / it doth not followe that mēs writinges shoud be brought into the assemblies and read for praier. The 6. of Nōbers I haue answerd before: Frō the 92. Psalme you reason thus. If the psalmes & other formes of prayer in the Scrìpturés were read or said by rote the verie forme of wordes for praying; The reading instead of or for praying. Here you durst not set your assumption, it was so false / which should be thus. But the Psalmes & other formes of prayer were read for praying &c. This I shewed you was verie vntrue / they were neuer cōmaunded so to be vsed / nor never so vsed. My proof was this / they are giuē by the holy Ghost for other vses / as singing / reading / etc. ād not comaunded anie where so to be vsed / so that you do but cauill / not hauing one proof for all your shameles assertiōs. Now where I demaunded what this made for your liturgies, ād reading mēs writinges for praying / except you would make your owne writinges of equall authoritie with the Scriptures: You āswere / That if I denie the cōsequence / it was lawfull to use the Psalmes / therfore mens writings / [Page 19] thē I wil shut out all praiers / euē the prayer of the Pastor. See your carnall handling / shuffling / and cōfounding Gods ordinances: Doth yt followe that because mēs writinges may not be brought into the publique assēblies / or there read for praying / therfore the prayers vttered by the liuely voice of the pastor should herebie be excluded? this your shift was answered in the first Argumēt / your cavils are stale / you are againe convinced. Touching the other matter of cōning phrases ād formes of praier by roate / to say ouer certeine number of wordes / yt is popish and a meere euasiō / and bewrayeth your ignorāce in praier. In this you haue granted me that he which prayeth not with a feeling of his presēt wāts of his soule / but saith ouer certeine number of wordes of custome or affectatiō / he is an hipocrite / which is true / proved. Mat 6.7. Now by this examine your daylie / monethlie / annuall etc. saying ouer / nay reading ouer certeine wordes / euery tyme the same / as you are stinted. It is plaine the sacrifice of fooles / Ecclesiastes. 4.17. The two pointes wherin you protest so willinglie to agree with me / were these. First whether only such prayers as were made without the booke / were accepted of Gods childrē. Secondly whether the same spirit teacheth vs to pray / that taught the holie men of God before tyme. You grant both these / but that you would seeme to alter the first question: wel then / Gods owne spirit that taught thē to pray without a booke / or stinting of wordes / teacheth vs so to pray nowe / and in the action of praying giueth the mouth to vtter what the heart desireth / moved with the same spirit. Still then after your long shifting to and fro / I trust you will stand to your first wordes / that you never read in the Scriptures anie cōmaundement for reading of prayers. Secondlie / to say ouer certeine numbers of words or phrases of the Scripture of custome or affectatiō / without feeling of / or asking for our present wantes / is hipocresie. Therfore I will conclude as I beganne / myne Argument standing good / that / To do any thing in the worship of God werof we have no warrāt of Gods worde / is synne. But read prayers haue no warrant in Gods Word / Ergo. etc.
We may not in the worship of God receaue anie tradition which bringeth our libertie into bondadge. Read praier vpon commandement brought into the publique assemblies, is a tradition that bringeth our libertie into bondage. Therfore read prayer &c.
The Minor is thus proved / that God hath left it in all mens freedome to pray as the present occasion requireth and the spirit giveth vtterance / according to his will. Againe no man hath power to commaunde anie thing in the worship of God / which God hath not cōmaunded etc. Marke. 7.7.8.9. Mat. 15. Gal. 5, 1. etc.
I say it is vngodlie and neere vnto blasphemie, to affirme, that prescript forme of prayer is a tradition bringing our libertie into bondage &c. my reason was & is, that the Lord by Moses prescribed a forme of blessing &c. Nom 6. the Prophetes in the Psalmes have prescribed manie formes of prayer. Our Sauiour Christ prescribed a forme of praier &c.
HEre is a greate storme / and yet nothing but wynde. If you were in Cai [...]has his place you would either have rent your clothes for zeale / or els condemne me before you vnderstand what I say. Is yt simple dealing do you thinke to say / I hold it a bondage breaking our libertie, for the Lord by Moses, [...] Prophetes, our Sauiou [...] Christ also, to set downe a forme of praier or to prescribe a forme of praier: Did you not see that the Minor Propositiō speaketh of the reading / for praing / and not of the forme of prayer? Agayne / of the commandement / wher by men are compelled to reade instead of praying? Did you not see that these wordes brought in to the publique assemblies, did specifye the matter to be mens writtings to be read in the assemblies as a worship / yea invocation of Gods name: which is a grosse mockery. Not that ther is any Commandement to reade ouer those formes of praier mentioned by you / for praying: and so the Cōmandement so to reade them for praying is an abuse of them / and a Commandement of men and not of God etc. But that much more odious yt is to bring in mens writtings into the publique assemblies / proved vnlawfull in the first argument / and then to commit Idolatrie with them by reading them instead of praying / and that to cōpell men by Commandement wher God had set no Commandement [...] vse them / was a bringing all men into bondage of popish traditions. So that your common recitall of these places of Scripture is abuse of them / and you do but palinodian canere. I thincke if you get St. IHONS gospell about your necke as the Papists / you wil thincke you haue religion ynough. The more fearful is your Apostacy / you proceede from euill to worse.
About the Commaunding a prescript forme of prayer to be vsed, our Church doth agree with all godly Churches, yea the reformed Churches haue and do practize the same. here therfore I wish the reader to obserue that you Brovvnists do not only condemne the Church of England, but all the reformed Churches whatsoeuer, and can be no other but Donatistes.
[Page 21]I Trust your madnes will appeare to all men / the poyson of Aspes is vnder your tongue: he that cannot rule his tongue his Religion is in vayne. Shall I in your hea [...]e be pressed with multitude of Churches? thē heare what the Lorde saith / Thou shalt not followe a multitude to do euill. Exo. 23.2 we have the worde amongst vs / we shall by that worde be either iustified or condemned. Then either proue your matter from te Schriptures. or els giue eare to the Scripture. If those Churches you speake of / bring mens writinges in to the publique assemblies / et in force them to be read for praying / I would see their warrāt / we belieue not because men say so or do so / but because God speaketh: And where he speaketh / al men must besilent. You may accuse [...]ther Countries as you wil / I knowe not their estate / but your drudgery insteade of true worship / is lothsome / the Priest with his masse-booke / and begger with his clapdisch canuize ouer the Pater noster for their bellie / which is your com-mon worship / with other trinckets. We shall speake of a Liturgie in due place. Here you breath out your accustomed lyes / sclanders / and [...]. First you terme vs Brownists and Donatists / wheras I neuer conuersed wit the men nor their writings: I detest Donatus his heresies. And if they had beene instruments to teach vs anie truth we were not therfore to be named with their name / we were baptized into Christs. Browne is a member of your Church your brother / and al Brownists do frequent your assemblies.
And here you wish the reader to consider / that I condemne all reformed Churches / do I condemne all Churched for reprouing a sinne by Gods wordes May not the true Church [...] (if they were such) err▪ Did I affirme at anie tyme tha [...] they were no true Church that vsed read prayers / remember your self / you knowe who is the Father of such vntruthes. But because your Conscience bare you witnesse you had wrongfully chardged me / and for me / all true Christians: you bring yt in by necessary consequence thus, you affirme (say you) prescript formes of prayer brought into the publique assemblies to be the changing the worke of the Spirit into an idoll, a tradition breaking Christian libertie, a deade letter quēching the Spirit &c, and therfore most detestable. But all reformed Churches recieue and vse it &c. [...] therfore. You cā reason well to bring the thruth into contēpt / your mouth to open and tongue wher as a sworde therunto. If the proposition be true / drawe what consequence you wil / it is yours an not myne / if the doctrine be true yt is Gods worde that giueth sentence against the sinne. And if you haue [...] spar [...]e of grace / procure that we may decide the truth with other Churches. Doth it follow that because imposing of mens writinges to be read for praying is an [...]ynous synne / therfore they that vse yt are no Church▪ If I should say so / I should iustlie be called an Anabaptist.
And here you accuse me to pleade for such a freedome in the Church / that nothing be receaued which is imposed by commaundement. Abaddon is the Father of such Prophets. Doth yt follow that because we would haue [...]he Church free from al traditions of men which haue no warrant in Gods worde / that therfore we would not receaue Gods ordinances by Commaundement. That we ought to receaue nothing by Commaundement in the [Page 22] worship of God / which God hath not commaunded / the secōd cōmaundement with the Scriptures I haue rehearsed / are euident. Deut 5.32 33. Mat. 25.2.3. Gal. 4.9. Collos. 2.20. But seing your self graueled / considering all the world cannot lay a Commandement to bring thei [...] owne inventions into the assemblies / wher God hath laide none / but forbidden yt: you ranne to your former places of Scripture to wrast them as before / where your collections are but vaine repetitions of that which hath beene cōvinced before. Moses / the Prophets etc. prescribed formes of prayers / therfore men now may thrust their writings into the publique assemblies: Your Argument is denied: and yet here is no warrāt for the reading them ouer for prayer.
The Church hath povver to expounde those prayers mentioned in the Scriptures, and to apply them to their seuerall necessities &c.
If you meane by expounding / the breaking vp off them by doctrine / and by doctrine and prayer to aplye thē to the seueral vses of the church by liuely voyce / far be yt from me to thinke otherwise. But if you meane by expounding / to make homilies vpon them / or liturgies by writing to be thrust vpon the publique assemblies / you are wide / and now iustifie homilies instead of preaching / and written prayers instead of praying▪ shew your warrant: The CH [...]CHES power is limited by the word.
When the prayers be framed and composed of nothing but the doctrine of the Scriptures, and after the rules of true prayer, nothing is broug [...] in which God hath not commaunded.
THis might have come in before your raylings / but you sawe yt was too silly▪ where is that commaundement of God / that all mēs wri [...]tinges in forme of prayer agreable to the Scriptures should b [...] brought into the publique assemblies) your bare worde is not enough t [...] put [...] to silence. And when you have gott them into the Church / yo [...] must prove that GOD hath commaunded they should be read fo [...] praier.
Where I said our Sauiour Christ neuer vsed the wordes when h [...] praied / of that forme of praier he gaue to his Disciples / nether cōmau [...]ded his Disciples to say ouer these wordes / nether do we reade tha [...] euer his Apostles did use them / or enforced others to vse anie certein number of wordes / you say I speake vntrulie. For say you the Disciple desired him to teach them to pray / as Iohn taught his Disciples / an [...] he commaunded them / when you pray / say Our Father / etc. Luke. 1 [...] [Page 23] and S. Math. an Apostle hath deliuered the same to the whole Church. I answer I haue never heard that Ihon Baptist taught his Disciples to say ouer certeyne wordes / nether can yt be gathered by our Sauiour Christes answere: for he answeared not alwaies their verie demaunde according to their wordes / but thervpon tooke occasiō to instruct them as he sawe neede. And I haue proued by the 6. of Math. that our Sauiour did not commaunde them to say ouer the very wordes when they prayd; for the word Houtos in Mathew signifieth after this maner: Againe that Math. recordeth not the very number / or the very same wordes that Luke doth. And now I reason thus: if Christ had commaunded those very wordes to be said ouer in praying / then we must alwaies whē we pray / say ouer those wordes: for in Math. [...]. he saith when you pray / pray thus / Our Father etc. The word when sheweth / that this commaundement is to be observed at all tymes: And then the Apostles sinned in praying other wordes Acts. 4.24.25. Furder yt being the most summary forme of prayer / most ample / most perfect etc. if those wordes were commaunded to be said ouer / then we ought not to vse any others for he is accursed that bringeth not the best offring [...] he hath. Malach. 1.14. By all these yt is euident that our Sauiour nor his Evangelists tyed no man to the very wordes saying ouer / but according to that forme and those instructions: and now leaue of your popish dreames. Yet you would make mē belieue I reasoned thus / that the Apostles did not / nether our Sauiour himself / nor anie that we reade of / vse these wordes in prayer / therfore they did not use yt. Nay I said they did not vse those verie wordes in their prayers / but vsed other wordes according to their particular wants / as our Sauiour in the 17. of Iohn is said to do: therfore he nether vsed nor cōmaunded others to say ouer those wordes. And so I may well conclude / that to impose certaine wordes to be read or said by ro [...]te for praying / vpō the church / espeaciallie mēs writings / is an intollerable pride / euen a setting of men in the place of God: Also to vse them or bowe downe vnto them in that order / is sinne / and breach of Gods lawe.
Because true prayer must be of faith, vttered with heart & liuely voi [...]: It is presumptious ignorance to bring a booke to speake for vs vnto God &c.
To worship the true God afther an other maner then he hath taught, is Idolatrie. But he Commaundeth vs to come vnto him, heavie loaden vvith contrite heartes, to cry unto him for our vvantes &c.
[Page] Therfore we may not stand reading a dead letter, instead of powring fourth our petitions.
We must striue in praier with continuance &c. But we cannot striue in praier & be importunate with continuance, reading vpon a booke Therfore we must not reade when we should pray.
These 3. I ioyned togeather as hauing no weight, you say I answeare by plaine contradiction without Scripture &c. And afterwardes, is not my bare deniall as good as your bare affirmation: &c.
STay your selues and wonder / they are blind and make blind. Is ther anie doctrine more spirituall / anie more inculcated by the Holy Ghost / then this accesse vnto God in the mediation of [...] owne spirit / to make our mindes knowne vnto God / to offer vp the [...] owne spirit in vs / and fetch encrease from him by this [...] true [...] with the heart and voi [...]e? This colioquie with the highe [...]iestie of God is it a m [...]rter of no weight to learne to discerne betweene [...] exercises of the spirit / and to exercise his graces aright according to [...]? Rightly is it [...]aid / the wisedome of God is foolishnes to the naturall man. But Mr. GIFFORD wil say he graunteth the propositiōs true and weightie matters [...] is the Assumptions that be so friuolous / and as he saith a litle after / ridiculous: wel / let them be weyed. 1. That reading instead of praying is not a powringh fourt of the heart by liuely voyce. 2. That it is a quenching of the spirit / to reade an other mans wordes vpon a booke / in the very action of powring fourth our heart as we pretend. 3. That yt is not an vn [...]ordening of a contrite heart by faith / but an ignorant action to reade for praying. 4. That we cannot s [...]riue in prayer / continue in prayer / be importunate etc, by reading vpon a [...]oo [...]e. These are the [...] he t [...]incketh of so litle weight: the bare deniall and contradiction wherof he holdeth of such credit / that it must suffice for answeere / seing he sait he hath before proued the vse of reading. See here he calleth yt the vse of reading: he could not say that reading is praying / neth [...]r that these twoo exercises of our Faith can be vsed both in one instant / as one action. I haue sheweed that pro [...]che and an [...] gnosis / praying / and reading / are divers actiōs both of the minde and body let the reader consider what weight then this matter is of / to talk with the lyuing God.
[Page 25]But for the benefit of such as haue grace to sauour the things that are of God / I will a litle illustrate these Assumptions / at least some of them. 1. That yt is a quenching of the spirit to reade an other mans wordes vpon a booke when I should powre fourth mine owne heart / the word yt self must be considered / the Apostle commaundeth saying 1. Thessalonians 5.19. extinguish ye not the spirit. Now to suppresse and leaue vnvttered the passiōs of our owne heart by the worke of the spirit / giuing vs cause of prayer / and instead therof to reade an other mās writing / I doubt not wilbe founde and judged of all that haue spirituall eyes to see / a quenching of that grace yea in that action / the reading hindreth vs from pleading our cause with God / according to the occasions we see in our owne hearts. And by not teaching men to drawe out the graces of God in thē / to offer vp the sweete incense of his owne spirit in prayer / but an other course deuised by fleshly pollicye / the people growe in such Atheisme / that they learne not all the dayes of their life to lay open their owne soule before the Lord in prayer. How much more then / by imposing stinted wordes to be read in the whole assemblies insteade of the liuely graces / making yt a sufficient ministerie to reade ouer such beggarlie ware / do you abondon Gods spirituall giftes / and make an assemblie of Atheists in most places of this land / yea in the best assemblies you compell such ware to be read / when and where the liuely voyces of Gods present graces should only he drawē fourth as an holie odour vnto the Lorde. Yea I appeale to the consciē ces of all that feare God / if this haue not brought the land generally into Atheisme / that not one amongst an hundred can call vpon God.
2. That it is an ignorance to presume to come into so neere a conversing with God / and to do one action for an other / so offring the sacrifice of fooles / let yt be sufficient proof that reading is not praying. That yt is presumptuous / to bring such lame sacrifices when you know to do better / let yt be considered whether you would so vncircumspectly / and carelesly approche to the presence of the Prince or any noble personage. Then if he be our Lorde / where is his honour / his feare etc. when we will teach men and compell mē to do they knowe not what in his sight / and to offer such lame sacrifice. The Priestes themselues care not what offring they bring him / Malach. 1.
Thirdly the reading praier can be at no hand a striuing in praier / for the worde agoniso which is read Rom. 15.30. signifieth to contēd in feruency both in minde and worde / to preuaile with God as Iaakob wrestled with the Angell / and said / I will not let thee go except thou blesse me. Genes. 32.24.25.26. such s [...]rift you shall see through out the Psalmes in th [...] prayers of David and the Prophets / alas / howe this should be performed eyther in feruencie or contynuance / let the wise consider.
4. For importunacy and contynuāce in prayer / wherof we haue many precepts / let the worde be looked vpon / which is proscart [...]reo to insist by perseverance etc. as we see our Souiour Christ make plaine vnto vs by a parable Luke 11.5▪6.7.8. [...]nd Luke 18.1.2.3.5.7. now shall not [Page 26] God auendge his elect which crye night and day? Experience we see in Moses / who when he lifted vp his handes to heauen the Israelites so long preuayled: Exod. 17. You can not make your read prayers serve in this vse with all your divises. For how would you effect this / except to make the Priest reade till he sweat againe / with vaine repetitiō / and the people that vse such stinted praiers to say thē oftē ouer / as the Papists their fifteene Aue marias and fiue Pater nosters as a cure of al their grieves. By this litle I have spokē / yt may appeare (though the Lorde knowes I am a mā of vncircumcised lippes / neither able to vtter that God giveth me by faith to see in these high thinges / neither yet cōprehending anie title of the exce [...]llcy of the) yet I hope yt shal appeare to Gods children / how odious your marchandize is in Gods eyes / and howe you make the ordināces of God of true praier / of none effect / by your traditiōs he only approuing the liuely graces of his owne ministerie / and such as haue giftes and are caled thervnto / to be his mouth vnto the people ād the peoples mouth vnto him in the publique assēblies: you inuent a newe worship and extinguish his / which maketh mē fall into dissolutenes and bloudie tyrannie against his Sainctes.
And where I alleadged that Paul would pray with the spirit and vnderstanding / and therfore not vp on a booke / you answere that Paul had no such neede of a booke as other men haue. But if you had looked vpō the text better / you should see / that the Apostle in his owne person teacheth what ought to be donne in all Churches and of all men / And that he there taketh away the abuse of spirituall giftes 1 Corin. 14.15. and in the same Chapter sheweth that this and all other his doctrines are cō maundements of God. vers. 37. nowe either God prescribeth two wayes to pray / or els your reading for praying is a devise of mā. But your self have confessed there is no commaundement to reade praier for praying. Yet here you cauill with your stale shift / that Paul taught others to singe Psalmes vpon a booke / which is a meere euasion / seing singing is not praying. The same Apostle saith to all that are borne of God / because we are sonnes God hath sent fourth into our heartes the spirit of his sonne which cryeth Abba Father. So that althoug we haue not like measure of grace / yet if we cannot pray we haue not the spirit of God / Gal. 4.6
I alleadged as you say a reason here why praier read cannot be true praier. In readi [...]g we fetch the matter from the booke which moueth the heart / In true prayer we fetch the matter frō the heart which causeth the mouth to speake. Your answere is / that this is a most ridiculous vanitie / for tell me (say you) this / when we bring fourth in true praier matter from the heart which causeth the mouth to speake / hath not the heart bene first moued with the worde of faith / etc?
Let men here witnesse with me / what cause I had to esteeme you as a shorner / Againe / how emptie you are of anie spiritual sauour. And here you haue no answere to giue / but aske me certaine questions: First whether when we bring fourth in true prayer / etc. the heart hath not beene first instructed. To this I answere / that againe you confesse the [Page 27] reading prayer vpon a booke is not praying / but an instruction of the heart to praye. If you would stand to this / we should not neede haue so much labour / and all the places of Scripture which you haue alleadged for to proue reading praying / haue beene meerly wrested by you to deceaue the simple. Wel (say you) but if the heart be first instructed before yt can vtter matter in prayer / whie may not the heart againe be moued with hearing or reading the worde / and so vtter prayer. Yes I graunt / and still you graunt me / that reading is not praying but moueth to prayer: Then all your assemblies that haue no prayer but reading praiers / haue no prayer at all / ād all that vse read praier for praying do not praye but mocke with God. See if your Ordinarie will here be pleased with you: Yet you would denie all this with the same breath by a shifte / saying: The heart is moued whē one heareth the prayer of the minister and presently sendeth fourth prayers togeather with him. I trust you will not say that the heart of the hearer prayeth one thing / and the Minister an other / againe the prayer of the minister is the prayer of the people / by Gods ordinance / whiles they thinck one thinge / and are mett to one end / for auoyding confusion one speaketh / yet al pray togeather one thing. But the minister may as well preach and pray / or reade anie chapter and praye / as reade praiers / and praye both in one action of the minde / and voyce / which were strange. Your cauill then / whether the heart may be moved / and pray / both at once / is taken awaye / seing you graunt reading and praying / two seuerall excercises of the heart and voyce / which cannot be performed at once with liuely voyce. The conclusion is then / that either ye must fetch the matter out of your booke whē you reade prayer / and so do not pray for the particular wāts wher with the heart is moued and pressed before you come / or els you pray not with liuely voyce at al / when you read. The Lorde then hauing taught vs to breake vp our owne hearts / and powre fourth our owne petitions with heart and voyce / gyve grace to all his people so to worship him.
We must pray as necessitie requireth. 7. Argu. But stinted prayers cannot be as necessity requireth. therfore stinted prayer is vnlawfull.
To this I answered, approuing the Proposition. And in the Assumption I did distinguish of matters to be prayed for: G. Gifford. as that there be thinges necessarie to be praied for at all tymes. and of all men: of these a prescript forme may be vsed at all meetings of the Church. there be matters not at all tymes needfull to be praied for, for such there can be no prescript forme to be vsed contynually. &c.
I Haue proved in the first Argument / that no mens writings are I. Greenwood. to be brought into the publique assemblies / for there the liuely [Page] graces of Gods owne spirit and Cononicall Scriptures only must be heard: In the Seconde / the vnlawfullnes of reading for praying / In the third / the vnlawfullnes to impose any thing by cōmaundemēt / that God hath not cōmaunded. And here we shall handle in few wordes the end of your stinted prayers. Your distinction is far differing from the wisedome of the spirit / for though many thinges be at all tymes needful to the publique assemblies / yet stand not the assemblies either al at any tyme / or anie at all tymes in the same neede and feeling of them / or fitnes to receaue them / so that except you can make all assemblies in the same want of such thinges as are alwaies needfull / or any at al tymes / in the same preparednes to aske / and vse thē that be needfull / you cā make no stinted prayers for them. Giue [...]are then to the Scripture in this pointe 1. Corinth. 2.11. Ia. 4.14 For what man knoweth the thinges of a man, if not the spirit of mā which is in himself, &c. Agayne, who knoweth what (shalbe) to morow? Whiles you then thought to haue founde out more then the only wise gouernour of his house sawe needfull for his worship in his Church / and of euerie soule / you haue lifted vp your self into his seate / and taken the office of his spirite vpon you / who searcheth the heartes and knoweth the reynes / and teacheth his people how and when to aske / according to his will and eheir needs. Rom. 8.26.27. also the spirit helpeth our infirmities, for what we should pray as we ought we know not: But the spirit it self maketh request for vs with sighes & groanes which cā not be expressed: Yet searching the heartes knoweth the meaning of the spirit / because he maketh request for the saincts / according to the wil of God. And wher you say then / that if we marck the prescript forme of prayers of all Churches / we shall see this regard / that nothing be left out which is necessarie etc. Rom. 8.7 and 11.34 1. Cor 2.16 [...]d 3.19 This bewrayeth your shallownes / the wisedome of the flesh is foolishnes with God: who hath searched the depth of Gods spirit / or knowne the minde of man? who cā prescribe the estate of al Churches / and what euery moment is needfull to be praied for [...] Odious then is such drosse of a fleshly mans heart.
Your secōd provision / that nothing be prayed for in your liturgy that falleth seldom out / but they are limited to the time. Your Church hath not this provision / you compel men to pray against thunder and lightning at midd winter / and in your most solemne feastes against sodeine death: But the truth is / till you amend your wayes / God will accept no sacrifice of you / much lesse requireth this at your handes / to do more in his worship then he hath commaunded.
And where you say / in the Church of England the preachers are not limyted touching the matter of their praiers / it is not true / you are all sworne to your portuis, howsoeuer / you may omitt some of yt for your Sermons / and vnder pretext therof / what part you will. And why is ther not a forme for prayer prescribed / to be vsed after and before your Sermons? ys it because the text is not allwaies the same / or that the speaker is not in like fitnes / or the auditorie in the same preparednes? I assure you these thinges might be sufficyent cause why you cannot use [Page] alwaies the same wordes / and pray according to your necessities / and even so standeth the case for al other affaires in the Church. The disposition of the soule and the distresses therof / continue not in one state one howre. But let me tell you whie you haue no forme of praier for your preachings: In manie of your parishes / or (as you would have them) Churches / Sermons are of those rare thinges / wherof you saye ther cā be no proscript forme of prayer / yea your liturgie approueth a ministerie and sufficyent administration without anie doctrine / which sheweth yt came out of the diuells forge / and not out of Christes Testament.
But seing you would take vpon you to set so manie perscript formes of prayer / as ther is thinges necessarie for euerie assemblie to pray for / wher Christ hath set none / And if yt were a thing so necessarie to have prescript wordes at the administration of the Sacraments / I asked you whether our sauiour Christ had not forgott himself as you thought that when he commaunded his ministers to go preach and baptise / and shewed them the words of institution / and the Elementes to be vsed with all things thervnto needfull / he did not prescribe some forme of wordes for prayer in particular: In the tabernacle euerie pinne was prescribed / so that ether such formes of praier are not necessarie / or Christes Testament hath some wants. To this you answere / that yt is not of necessitie ther should be a sett forme of prayer prescibed for the administration of the Sacraments: The minister may conceive prayer / etc. Hold you to this / that it is not of necessity: you will denie it againe the next Argument. Well here you graunt / yt is not of necessitie / But you haue not answered me / till you tell me whether you hold it necessarie or no: if yl be at all times necessarie / the Testament is not perfect. Againe do you not hold yt of necessitie / when you eycommunicate men / and depose your ministery for not observing yt? But you saye / yt is for conueniencye. If it be a part of Gods worship / and all tymes conveniēt / then is it necessarie / and if yt be not necessarie / put such conueniency in your cornerd Capp / or surplus. Nowe if yt be necessarie at all times / you must proue yt is commaunded in Gods worde / or els say that all thinges necessarie in Gods worship be not cōteyned in Gods worde / which were-blasphemous and papisticall to affirme. To this you graunt all things necessarie and convenient are conteyned / and aske if I be ignorant that ther be manie thinges conteyned in the scriptures / that are not expressed in particulars / but be gathered from the generall rules. No / I am not ignorāt of this: but if it may be gathered ether by expresse wordes / or by general rule / that ther should be prescript formes of praier for the administration of the Sacraments / or anie other particular action of the Church / then must yt be so of necessitie / because God hath commaunded yt / though not in particular / yet in generall rules: But you graunt yt is not of necessity: therfore yt is not commaunded in particular / nor conteyned in anie generall rule.
Yet you demaunde of me / if one should obiect that ther were not cō maundement in the Scriptures / nor example for anie praiers to be [Page 30] made at all before preaching etc. I would say he should lye against God / we have both. For the Apostle sheweth yt was the chief part of their office / to perdure in the worde ād prayer. Act. 6.4 / 1. Cor. 14. and 1. Tim. 2.1 / Acts. 2.42. besides / all things are sāctified vnto vs by the word and praier. And because they never vsed doctrine in Church / but prayer wēt before / their meetings is said to be vnto prayer. 1. Tim. 4.5 Act. 16.13 [...]6. Some things ther are I graunt that are not prescribed in particular / and yet are commaunded by general doctrine / as baptisme of Infants. But whatsoeuer is commaunded ether in particular or necessarie collections from general rules / are of necessitie to be obeyed / as the commaundements of God / and may not be altered / but your particular formes of prescript wordes have no such warrant. Nowe seing you would have no prescript wordes of prayer for the minister to vse before his preaching / nor of necessitie for the Sacraments / and haue none for excommunicatiō / etc. I wondred wherof your Portuis is made / and wherto yt should serue / except for churchings and burialls and such popery / wherby you leaue the commaundements of God / to sett vp your owne traditiōs. And here vpon I demaunded wherupon you would make your stinted and sett prayers. You marueile I should be so babling and make such questions you meane about your babling worship. You saye of the particulars of the Lordes prayer. I demaunde nowe againe / whether you can number the starres of heauen / or the sandes of the sea / if not / much lesse the [...] particulars of the Lordes prayer / There is medecine / and direction of prayer for euerie soule / and euerie disease therof to be drawen fourth by doctrine and prayer as the need requireth you would sett a liturgie vpō some thinges / and compell mē thervnto euerie meeting / which were nothing els but to seale vp the fountaine / and send men to the drye pitts of your execrable devises / from the whole fountaine / to a pitcher of water / from the liuely graces of doctrine and prayer / to your owne writinges. Paul commaunded to pray for Kings and Princes / yet bounde no man what wordes to vse. 1. [...]. [...]. 1.2.3.4.5 The Lord gyve you repentance of such presumptuous sinne / as to alter his worship. If you cānot knowe the estate of the soule before hand / you can make no formes of wordes for yt.
[...] ▪ Argu▪Read praiers were deuised by Antechrist, and maintaine supers [...]ition & an Idoll ministery: therfore read praiers & such stinted service are intollerable &c.
G. Gi [...]ford.Antichrist devised manie blasphemous wicked praiers. But to say that the reading or following a prescript forme of praier was his, is most false, for there were Liturgies in the Church of olde, before Antichrist was set in his throne &c.
[Page 31]THe Scripture never inforced to reade praiers for praying / nether stinted v [...] what / or how manie wordes to vse / nether is the formes of praier prescribed in the Scripture / anie deuise of man. I. Greenwood. Let vs then hold these two to be the matters in hand / the one / reading in steade of praying / the other / stinting and limiting by a written liturgie, what and howe [...]anie wordes to pray / with all other such prescriptions as your liturgie conteyneth. All may be affirmed antichristian which is not warranted by Christes worde: Yet your liturgie, is euē from that Antichrist lifted vp into the throne you speake of / as may of all men be seene that will cōpare yt with the Portuis: And (as I haue heard) the Pope would haue approued of your liturgie, if yt might haue bene receaued in his name. Nowe we haue proued in the discourse before / that reading for praying hath no warrant from Gods Worde / which maketh them two seuerall and divers actions euery where.
Here then we must consider something for an other liturgie, thē Christes Testament / which we shall find to be nothing els / then an other gospell. And because Mr. Gifford saith ther were liturgies in the Church before Antichrist was lifted vp into his throne (which I will not denye) I would have all men vnderstand that I do not go about to proue the Church no Church that hath a liturgie (as mine Arguments are falslie wrested to that purpose) but to proue the vnlawfullnes og such liturgies thrust vpon mēs Consciences / is onlie my determination through Gods assistance. The worde liturgia signifieth publicum munus, ergon Laou, the worck of / or for the people: that is the very execution of the m [...]nisteriall actions in the Church / according to the worde / of all the officers therof that is the practise of those ministeriall duties prescribed by Christ / we may euery where reade. In the first of the Gospell of Luke the 23. verse it is said. And it came to passe that when the daies of his ministration were past he went home to his house, meaning Zacharias: where we see the worde Leitourgia for his execution of his ministeriall functiō. Now this Leitourgia of the newe Testament / is euen the rule and function prescribed by Christ / for the publique actions to be donne in his Church: which leiturgie of Christ is perfect / Gal 1.8.2 Heb. 22.18.19 2. tim 1.13 1 tim 6.14 and he pronounced accursed that addeth any thing therto / or taketh any there from: yea all mē are bound to keep the true patterne therof / without alteration or innouating anie part of the same: yt is called a commaundemēt to be kept without spott / till the appearing of our Lorde Iesus Christ. Nowe / to make an other leiturgie, is to lay an other foundation / and to make an other Gospell / not that ther is an other Gospell / but that ther are some willing to peruert the Gospell of Christ. Thē your leiturgies to which you are sworne / and by which you administer / being (as you cannot denie) an other leiturg [...]e thē Christes Testamēt / is plaine an other Gospell / for the Canōs and rules you prescribe and impose are such as he hath not prescribed or commaanded / or at the best / a transforming of his ordinances / Now if you should say / you do nothing but make lawes of particular thinges collected frō the scriptures / ād with that collour impose your liturgies, we haue [Page 32] shewed the vnlawfullnes of bringing anie mans writinges / as rules into the Church. For the explaning of the whole will of Christ / so far as is meet for vs / he hath giuen vs his officers to administer / according to his liturgie by liuely voyce / and due executiō of all things by one rule. Making then a newe litourgia, you must also make a newe ministerie / for Christs ministerie cānot administer after a counterfeit liturgie. And that Antichrist was the theif Innouator of this liturgie (howsoeuer the thing might be long a working by litle and litle) yt is plaine when he is called Antikeimenos, 2. Tes. 2.4 that opposite man / or laier of an other foundation Now we must not make all liturgies beside the Testament / of like wickednes or blasphemie / But how neere the most heynousest yours approach / let him that answereth the other part of your booke witnesse vnto me.
Nowe where I said you had confessed that you neuer read in the Scriptures any warrant to reade praiers vnto God / you say now / I knowe I haue falsified your wordes. Surely yt would be knowē / for I would not willinglie so do / your wordes you say were these / to your remembrance: God neuer commaunded a man to reade praier vpō the booke: Is not this the same that I saye: you confesse ther is no warrant for reading prayer, is ther anie thing warranted in his worship / that he hath not commaunded? Then you aske me if I will gather thus / is it not expresse cōmaunded / therfore yt is not warrāted. No you forgot the worde expressie / to help your self to saye and vnsaye. I gathered / that because you said absolutely it was not cōmaunded / therfore yt was not warranted. Here you come againe to shewe your ignorance in the Scriptures / to say ther is not anie expresse commaundement to vse praier before or after doctrine. And remember / you here will haue it a commaundement / and said before you hold yt not of necessitie. ‘ G. Gifford.There vvould sundry inconueniences grovve for vvant of a Liturgie, or prescript formes of publique prayers.’
I. Greenwood.STill I must put you in minde of the wisedome of that gouernour of his house / the builder / beginner and finisher of our Faith Christ Iesus: he foresawe what inconueniēce would haue growne if either mē or Angells should make newe liturgies, or other formes of praier / thē he hath prescribed / for the publique assemblies. Here therfore you deeply chardge him / not to haue donne all thinges that were needfull / in not prescribing you more formes then he hath donne / or not suffred learned diuines to impose their owne writinges vpon publique assemblies / as rules for the Church / and worship vnto God. But see what the Scripture saith / who hath knowē the mynde of the Lord, [...] Cor 2.16 [...] 2.20 / that he might instruct him. Againe▪ wher is the wise, where the Scribe, where the disputer of this world, hath not God made the wisedome of this world foolishnes? To put you out of doubt then / that we neede not any newe liturgie / nor anie mens writinges to be brought into the publique assemblies / the Holie Ghost saith / 2. Timot. 3.16. The whole Scripture is Theopneustos, inspired [Page 33] of God / and profitable vnto doctrine / vnto improof / vnto correction / vnto erudition which is in righteousnes / that the mā of God may be absolute / perfect fully furnished vnto euerie good worcke. Nowe if onlye the Scriptures be Theopnestos, and sufficiēt to make Gods children absolutely perfect / even fully furnistied to euery good worck / what blasphemie is yt to say / sundrie inconueniences would growe / if mens writinges were not imposed vpon the publique assemblies?
And in this your wisedome / let vs see what is the chiefest inconueniē cy that would growe. You say euerie frāticke spirit (of which sorte ther be manie in the ministerie) would not only be vnlike themselues / but varie from others. I answered / and still do / that the Papists haue not so weake a reason for their Idolatrous liturgies / Rubricks, & Canons. You say yt appeareth by all my Arguments / how meete a man I am to iudge the weight of reasons alleadged by the Papists / and others: well I am weake / and you strong / foolish / and you wise / yet might you haue shewed me a weaker reason which they alleadge for their constitutious ecclesiastical / as they call them. But my chief answere was (wherby you might haue beene satisfied) that if it were but in Phrases the ministerie should differ / yt is no sufficient cause to ordeine liturgies. And if they offend in matter of doctrine or conversation / the censure of the Church should help that. The first you graunt / the second also you confesse / that the Church should censure such thinges: But you say ther are sundrie other differēces in administration of publique prayers and Sacramēts as in order and ceremonies which the Church is to haue regard of / and not to leaue arbitrarie. All other ceremonies in Gods worship then Christ and his Apostles haue prescribed vs / are diabolicall / and not Apostolical. Then / for all thinges donne in the Church in those publique actions / the offenders must be admonished / if they transgresse the rules of the word. And for the orers you speake of / you meane circumstāces of time / place / kneeling / sitting / standing etc. of them thet can be no furder lawes / then Christ hath prescribed / that all things be donne to edifying / in comelyues and decency etc. of these to set particular lawes / were to breake the lawe of God / which leaueth them in the Churches liberty as neede requireth / to the glorie of God. In these thinges to do anie thing contrarie to the generall rules of order / edifying / decencye etc. the trāsgressour is by those rules to be instructed / admonished and cēsured.
Well / here you haue made a faire hand / to make read prayers but a matter of order / which is all the worship you haue / to bring in mens writings into the publique assemblies / to make then ether rules to bind the conscience / and so put them in the place of Gods booke / or to reade them ouer for praying / is but a matter of order / well then put them in your cornerd Capp / we haue enough rules for the ordering of Christs spouse / without such Babilonish ware. Here you say mine experience is not so great as my boldnes. I passe not to be iudged of you / yt is not like that the enchaunters of egipt should knowe the beautye of Sion: ther is a cloude betweene you and vs: we haue (blessed be our God) a [Page 34] pillar of fire before vs. An other fault you say in my former reason / is / that because the censure of the Church should redresse defaultes / therfore ther needeth no liturgie. Naye take all with you: No fault cā be censured that is not a transgression against the rules of Gods worde, and those to be censured by the doctrine and admonitions of the Church, the [...]fore we neede no leiturgies. To the worde of God only / ought all mē to be bounde by covenant / and for the transgressions therof only / to be censured.
The Church hath this power, to ordeine according to Gods worde, & to appointe such orders in matters of circumstance &c. as shall most fitly serue to edification. And then these orders being established the Church is to driue men to the obseruation of them.
FIrst / in this your papisticall mudde / I must tell you / your reading of mēs writinges for prayer / is a false worship of God / and not a matter of circumstance, And for matters of order and circumstance / which are no part of the worship / ther can be no other lawes made of thē / thē Christ hath made: As for ordeyning of lawes in the church / it is to plead for vnwritten verities / and to make the lawe of God vnsufficiēt: nether cā yt be according to the worde / to make anie lawe / that God hath not made / but an adding to his worde / which is execrable pride: these your wordes then (according to Gods worde) was but a cloake to couer the grosseues of your position: for the worde / ordeyne / or create lawes / is to make some / that are not made before: let vs thē see your cleane sentence to be this / The Church hath aucthority in matters of order & circumstance to make & ordeine lawes in his Church▪ for his worship: nowe see how you contradict these Scriptures. Rev. 22.18.19. Prov. 30.5.6. euerie worde of God is pure etc. put nothing to his worde least he reprooue thee ād thou be found a liar. likwise Deut. 4.2. and 12.32. and Gal. 3.15. though it be but a mans covenant / when it is confirmed / no man doth abrogate it / or superordeine anie thing to it. And the second Commaundemēt forbiddeth anie such humane tradition in the worship of God: all the Popes trinckets might be brought in by the same grounde: We would willingly haue seene your warrāt for this doctrine / your bare worde is not sufficient to impose other lawes then God hath made / vpō his Church. This is the foundation of poperie and Anabaptistrie / to giue libertie to make lawes in the worship of God. Yet you will go furder / that such lawes being ordeyned and established by publique auctoritye / the discipline and censures of the CHVRCH are to driue men to the observation of the same. By your iudgment our Sauiour CHRIST was an Anabaptisticall Schismatique / that would not himself / nor his Disciples / obey and obserue the traditions of the Elders: And what saith he vnto pleaders for traditions. It is thus writtē Marke 7.5. thē asked him the Pharises and the Scribes, whie walke not thy disciples according [Page 35] to the tradition of the elders, but eate meate with vnwashed hands. Thē he answeared, surely ISAY hat prophecied well of you hypòcrites, as it is written▪ this people honoreth me with their lippes but their heartes are far frō me. But they worship me in vayne, teaching doctrines mēs precepts. Fo [...] you lay the commaundement of God aside and obserue the tradition of mē.
And to helpe fourth your euill matter / instead of proof from the scripture / you fall out into furious exclamation against them that desire only to haue the worde practized: saying / who is able to imagine the innumerable divisions and offences in the practize of your anabaptisticall freedome / in which you deny the Church to have power to ordeine and impose any orders? lett all men iudge the venemousenes of this tongue / Christ pronounceth them accursed that add or super ordeyne any thing to his worde / and you pronounce iudgment of them / that only obey his worde. Shall yt be said that Mr. Gifford holdeth / that the only practize of Gods worde / would be the cause of innumerable diuisions and offences? This hath bene Satans old accusation in the mouth of the most enimies of Christs Gospell: nowe yt must be Mr. Giffords accusation of Gods ordinances / to be insufficient [...] vnperfect / etc. fearfull is his Apostacy from that truth he hath knowen. I take it / yt is more like to be Anabaptistry / to practise any thing without warrant of the word / to make their owne devises lawes / in Gods worship / then to do nothing but what God hath commaunded / within the limites of our callings.
For the frāticke ministery / yt came of your owne wordes / that therfore you must needes haue a liturgie, because ther are manie frātick spirits in the ministerie? then I say / it is like you haue a frantick ministerie / that cannot be gouerned without an other liturgie then Christs Testament: For their great giftes you speake of: I will not compare with them.
My reason from the Colossians was that as the church there is commaunded to admonish their Pastor Archippus / if he transgressed / and to stirr him vp to his busines / so all minister [...] that caused divisions / contrary to the doctrine of Christ / were to be admonished / and auoyded / if then repent not: so that the worde of God / and admonition by the same / if they transgressed / is the waye to keepe all men in due order / and not imposing liturgies vpon the church / besides Christs Testament.
And where you collected thus / that if read praiers / and imposed liturgies be Idolatrous / thē wher will you finde a visible church / say you. I answered that the true Church might erre / euen in this poynte / though not in like height of sinne. Then you desire / that the churches of England may find lik [...] fauour at our hand: M. Barrowes refutation discovery, etc. to which I answeare / let him that handleth that question with you / shew you / how your sinnes herein exceede other countries / and persequ [...]t such as reproue you. Your church (as you call yt) cannot pleade ignorance. Your rayling speaches / of blind Schismatiques / Donatists etc. bewray what sweet water is in the heart: if you cannot proue your church to be the established church of CHRIST / they light all vpon your self. [Page 36] Ther are none Schismatiques, but such as departe from the faith / shew wherin we haue transgressed / and will not be reformed. In the meane tyme you are Schismatiques from Christ / in that you practize the Statutes of omry. You chardge vs with pride / for that (you saye) we imagine to knowe more then all the Churches vppon earth. This also hath bene Satans old weapon to deface the truth Iere. 18.18. why maye not a simple babe in Christ see that / which whole nations haue not seene? we cannot but speake the things GODS Worde teacheth vs: if we speake trueth / you need not oppose that we iudge anie man / yt is the worde of God shall iudge vs all / ād I saye / yt is an old popish Argument to reason thus (all Churches do such a thing / therfore it is lawfull) except you hold with the Pope / that the Church cannot erre / which were blasphemous. You are not well pleased that I will not say it is no Church that hath a liturgie imposed vpon yt / and because you haue so often sclandered me / that I hold yt so / you take great paynes to conclude it. I haue said that to impose mēs writings / to be read in stead of praying / is to worship God after a false maner / that yt is a devise of Antichrist / a deade letter / quenching the spirit / not of faith / Idolatrous is changing the worke of the spirit into an Idoll / breauing our Christiā libertye / and so most detestable. By these speaches I condemne al churches say you: this is not true / I condemne but the sinne. But you have sayd I deny that to be the Church / that hath any thing ymposed, I say you speake an open vntrueth / and remember the iudgment of him that inuenteth and maketh lyes: And God giue you grace to repent / if you belong to him. The consideration of this our discourse / I hartelie commēde to be dulie ād vprightly wayed / of all that feare God / who graunt vs his grace to forsake any sinne / where it shalbe shewed vs / by how weake instruments soever yt be reproved / and pardon me all my defaults / in this my hastie answere. Thus have we seene the vnlawfullnes of thrusting mens writings vpon publique assemblies / and reading instead of praying.
The praiers of such ministers & people, as stand vnder a false gouernmēt are not acceptable, not only because they aske amisse, but because they keepe not his Commaundements:
The praiers of such ministers & people as be subiect to Antichrist are abhominable:
Those ministers & people vvhich stand subiect to the Bishops and their Courts, are subiect to Antichrist &c. Therfore their praiers &c.
These do oncerne the third & fourth accusatiō, and therfore the answere is included in the ansvvere to them, Yet I take exception against the first, that the Church may be holden by force from executing Gods commaundemens touching externall gouernement, and yet be the true Church of Grd, I alleadged the Church that was holden captiue in Babylon &c.
HEre / after your acustomed maner / you offer me great wronge: first / insteade of answere / you alter the question very subtylie: then you dismember my former answere / and not only so / but you haue nether let my former āswere be āswered / nor prynted. Thus you alter the questiō / and answere not / where the Propositiō speaketh of a ministerie ād people standing vnder a false gouernmēt / you say the Church may be holdē vp force / from executing Gods commaundements in externall gouernment / wherof I never doubted: what is this then / but to deceaue your Reader / both to iudge sinisterlie of me / and be drawen from the truth himself? But indeede you meane not this (holden by force) of ciuile bondadge or persequution / for then ther were no difference betweene vs / ād myne Argument should stand vntouched. You affirme then that the Church may stand vnder a false gouernement / inforced therunto by the tyranny of the ennemie / and yet in that estate be the true apparant Church / by open profession / which is nothing / els / then that the Church may professe Christianisme and Antichristianisme / both at a tyme / subiect in minde to Christ / and subiect to Antichrist in outwarde obediēce. That you hold this doctrine in this place / the processe of your matter proueth / and to make all plaine / your wordes in the last writing (which here you summe vp) were these. But if the Church at any tyme be by mayne force restrayned from some priuiledges, or haue some gouernement set ouer it, which agreeth not with GODS worde, which it cannot auoide &c. See nowe how smoothly this man hath put away the crosse of Christ / by teaching men to stand vnder a gouernement / contrarye to Christes. I thought the ordinances of the newe Testament had beene a kingdome that could not be shaken. Heb.: 2.28. that none could haue beene a mēber of Christ / Rev. 14.9 10.11.1 [...] that receaueth the marcke of the Beast / though yt be but in his hand / or could be holden a member of Christ / by outward profession / that here had beene the patience of the Saincts / to suffer vnto death / rather then to bowe downe / either in minde or bodie to an other gouernment / then Christs. How is he a Lorde to them that are not gouerned by him? Well I needed not haue stand vpon this doctrine / but that he nether prynted my former answere / nor answered in [Page 38] these pointes / and myne owne copie taken from me by the Bishops: so that this man may retract what he will and accuse as please him: if he haue anie common honestie / let my former answere be seene.
But to proue the Church may be subiect to an other gouernement then Christs / which is euen to say / that a man may gyue all alleageance by outward practize to the Kinge of Spaigne / and yet be her Ma [...] ▪ true subiect / He saith / the Church was holden captiue in Babilon / where he as conningly hideth himself as before / though in my last writing I vrged him to answere / whether the Church in Babilō was subiect to their Idolatrie / or no. To the ciuile power I doubt not they were: But if the Priestes and Leuites stood Priests to the Idolatrous worship in Babilon / whether the people of Israel bowed downe to the outward practise and obedience of their Idolatrie / or no: then / if they did so / whether they stoode by profession the childrē of God / or apostatate in that estate None of these thinges haue you answeared me. Let the exāples of Hanania / Mishaell / and Azarin testifie Dan. 3. The people that retourned repented their transgressions / wher they had any of them sinned / and made a new couenant with the Lorde / before they were receaued / Ezra 9.14.15. and 10. Cap. 2.3.8. Yea the voyce of God was this / come out of her my people / ād touche no vncleane thing and I wilbe your God. We are before thee (saith Ezra) in our trespasse / and we cannot stand before thee because of it. Esa 52.11 Jerem 51.6.45. You never renounced your Antichristian ministerie / you neuer made newe couenant since the deepe defectiō of Poperye / but still minister in that kingdome / and wil not repent / yet boast your selves to be the Church of God / cryinge out / the Temple the Temple. I answeare then directlie / that whiles you stād subiect vnto / and practize ād communicate with other orders and gouernments / then Christes / you are not by outwarde professiō the Churches of Christ. I may not with you omitt the worde (willfull) because you persequute the light / and so much higher is your sinne. Here I must forewarne the Reader / with diligēce to consider Mr. Giffords disagreement and mine / he hauing accused me of a fundamētall heresie (as he calleth it) wheras he himself still maintayneth most grosse errors / wher of I reproued him / yet he persisteth / Namely / that the regenerate man may be said to stand in bondage to sinne / by reason of the corruption of the fleshe that is in vs / ād of our vnperfectnes in this life. Then / that one standing in outwarde bondage to opē knowē sinne / may in that estate be accompted and cōmunicated with / as the seruāt of Christ by outward profession / both at one instant: which is asmuch to say / we may be to mās sight / the seruaunt of the deuill / and the seruaunt of Christ / both at one tyme / by outward profession: so none should be excōmunicate: none be without / te world ād the church light and darcknes / Christ and Belial / should be mingled togeather.
The heresie wherof / he most vniustly and vntruly proclaymeth to be mainteyned by vs / is / that the regenerate man consenteth not to sinne / after regeneration / although in the last writinge I testified the cōtrary: Namely that the whole church might erre / might cōmitt some kinde of [Page 39] Idolatrie / that no mā was free from cōmitting sinne etc. And now I testifie to all the world / that I was neuer infected with anie such Anabaptistry, but haue euerie where resisted such dannable heresie. I haue learned and taught manie degrees of sinne / and differēces of trāsgressions / which the deare children of God fall into / after regeneration / in thought word and deed / of ignorance / of knowledge / of presumptiō / slippes / transgressions / and obstinate sinne: Yea that ther is no sinne / except ehe sinne against the Holy Ghost / but Gods childrē / may cōmitt it after regeneration / and be renued by repentance / which we ought to pray for in all sinners / but that one sinne except. Not that men should herevpon take boldnes to sinne / because God giueth repētance to his elect / wherin the riches of his mercy appeareth / but rather serue him in trembling and feare / as a iealous God / least with Esaw we find no place to repentance / though we seeke yt with teares. Againe / though in Gods sight / his elected are neuer forsakē vtterlie / nor the Holy Ghost vtterly extinguished in the repenerate / yet to mans iudgment he that cōmitteth opē knowē sinne / and persisteth obstinatly in the same / cannot be held the child of God to vs / by outward profession / but must be cutt of Nombers 15.27.31. Math. 18.17. and 1. Cor. 5. till they repent: Much more none that stād opē professed mēbers of te false church / subiect by the least outward bowing downe to this antichristiā Hierarchie, ād so cōtinuing in bō dage to a false gouernmēt / cā be holdē of vs te true professors of Christs Gospel. Now let vs peruse te seueral doctrines. Mr. Gifford affirmeth / that the true church migt stād in bōdage to a false gouernmēt / yet in that estate be helde / and cōmunicated with / as the true Church / by outward profession: his wordes in waye of proof / be these. They may with St. Paule say / it is no longer I that do it / but sinne that dwelleth in me: for if the yoake wherwith he was held captiue in part / could not take from him / but that he was the Lordes free seruaunt / it is no reasō that some outwarde bondage should make the Church not to be the spouse of Christ. If a man commaund his wife (saith he) to do a thinge / and ther be violent force to withhold her / shee is not to be blamed. Rom. 7. Mine answere to this he durst not print / but peruerteth my wordes / so manie as pleaseth him / nether can I yet come by a copie of my former writing to shew / what I thē replyed. Now consider what gouernmnet is / and what bondage is / and then behold the wickednes of this man: Spirituall gouernmet is that souereigntie / Dominion: and regiment that Christ Iesus / by his spirit / lawes / ordināces / and officers / exerciseth in ād ouer hys church / as yt is writtē: And thou Bethleē Iuda art not the least among the Princes of Iuda, for out of thee shall come a gouernour that shall gouerne my people Israell. againe / thy Scepter is an uer lasting Scepter. I haue set my king vpon Syon my Holy mountaine, Mat. 2.6. Psa. 2. and 45. and 110. these lawes ād ordināces wherby this kinge raigneth / are caled a kingdome that cānot be shakē Heb. 12.28. Mal 12.6 they that haue not him to reigne ouer thē / are by outward professiō none of his. If I be your lord, where is my honor? againe those myne enimies which would not that I should reigne ouer thē, bring bether, and slay thē before me. Luke 19.27 [Page 40] Also bondage or seruitude is to be al commaundement / and to yeild obedience in subiection. Now to be in outward bondage to an other outward government / other lawes / officers / and ordinances then Christs / is to be by outward subiection servantes of Antichrist / which layeth an other foundation: for by outward profession we cannot stand (to mans iudgment) professed subiects to two kings at enimitye / But we must be an enimie to the one / and so esteemed of all mē / much lesse members vnto two divers heades.
This then is mine answere here. 1. That it is an heresie to say a man may stand in bondage to open knowen sinne / and the free seruaunt of Christ to vs by outward profession / both at one instant. 2. That it is a falsifying of the Scripture / to say that St. Paul (in the 7. to the Romanes) was in bondage to sinne / when he / in the inner man resisted sinne / and daylie preuailed against the sinne / which his flesh would haue led him captiue in / if there had not beene a stronger power to ouercome that enimie. For he ther reasoneth of the benefite of the lawe / to manifest our sinne / and our conquest ouer sinne by daylie repentance / and reprouing of sinne in our selues / fighting against sinne / victory ouer sinne / thoughe yt contynuallie rebell. 3. How blasphemous were yt to contynue in knowen sinne / in bondage to yt / and to say / it is sinne that dwelleth in vs / and not we / and so still to blesse our selves without amendement. O horrible peruertinge of the Scriptures to mens destruction. 2. Pet. 3.16.4. That ther is no Argument to be drawen / nor consequence to followe / from the reliques of sinne / and corruption of the fleshe in one man / or the whole Church / and a professed bondage to al false government: no not betweene the open committing of sinne in the whole Church / or some m [...]mbers therof / and a professed homage and subiection vnto a false gouernment / we cannot be partakers with the false Church and true / at no hand. 1. Cor. 10.21 / 5. Lastlie / that the subiection to an other gouernement / is as a wife that committeth adulterie. Hosea 2.
I then reason thus on the contrary with you. Any man that after regeneration committeth open knowen sinne / and contynueth obstinate / as a bond seruaunt thervnto / standeth not the professed seruaunt of Christ / but of synne Ezechiel. 18. till he repent / so the whole Church / that persisteth in open knowen sinne / and persequuieth the messengers that reproue the same. Then / as euerie member of the false Church standeth a professed seruaunt of sinne / so the whole assemblies that stand professed subiects of false gouernment / no censures sf admonition belonging vnto them / but calling of them to repentance and seperation from the false Church. Then / as the wife that geueth her self to be one with an other man / is an adulteresse Rom. 7.3. so that Church that subiecteth herself to an other gouernment / ordinances / and lawes then Christs / is an harlot. Now lett all men say / whether I had not iust cause to say / you spake like a carnall libertine / and an Athiest▪ yea nowe / as one having his conscience [...]eared / to affirme / that the Church / remayninge in open [Page 41] knowe bondage to a false gouernment / may saye as Paul said / it is not I that sinne. And / that contynuing in that adulterie / she is the spouse of Christ by outward profession. You would saye it were a false Argument / to say / the Church hath manie imperfections / ignorances / transgressions etc. therfore standeth in bondage to sinne / nay standeth in bondage to an other heade / and an other government then Christs / Euen so / to saye the Church doth sinne / therfore may contynue in bondage to sinne / is false doctrine: nay / to say it may stand in open professed subiection to Antichrist / and be esteemed the CHURCH of CHRIST by outward profession in that estate / is damnable doctrine.
It is the flat contradiction of all the rules of the Scripture / to say / a man may stand in bondage to sinne / and the free servaunt [...] of Christ by outward profession / by mans iudgment / at one tyme / seing the obstinate offenders are to be cast out of the assemblie: But nowe / though the regenerate may fall into these highe sinnes / and contynue in their sinne a long time / yea manie yeares depriued of GODS grace / to mans seeming / and to vs is the seruant of Satan for anie thing wee see / yet the Spirit of GOD is never vtterlie extinguished or departed / after regeneration / but will recouer the man againe / and bring him to repentance / as David after a whole yeare / for the stronge man once displaced and cast out by a stronger then he / the spirit neuer vtterly departeth againe / for then yt were impossible that mā should be renewed Mat. 1.2.31. Heb. 10.26 and 6.4.
And herevpon I might saye / Paul never contynued captiue in sinne / but was alwaies renewed by repentance. Furder / this spirit of God (the sparkes wherof were never quenched vtterlie) did not / nor could not consent or giue place vnto sinne / for here is the enimitye and battel betweene the spirite and the flesh / euerie where spoken of Gal. 5,16.17. Rom. 7. May I not now say then / that Paul never contynued captiue vnto sinne / nor consented vnto sin concerninge the Inner man or gave place vnto sinne in that place mentioned / without heresie: And still reproue you / that when Paul reasoneth of the old man / or corruption in him / you will conclude yt of the new man / or inner man / and of the whole man / when you see euidently / he opposeth the one against the other: For whiles the spirit striueth against sinne / and raigneth in vs / thoughe the fleshe rebell / and cause vs to sinne seauen times a daye / yet are we not ouercome of sinne / so to remayne in bondage to sinne / that it should contynue to reigne in vs / as you may see in the same chapter Rom. 7.5.6. Where you alleage then / that Paul saw a lawe in his members / which did lead him captiue vnto sinne / you do falsifie the text: for he saith leading me captiue / and not did leade etc. for ther was a stronger man / or a stronger then man / that suffered not the lawe of his members to reigne: for saith he / I my self in my minde serue the law of God / but in the flesh the law of sinne / so that the whole man could not be said to serue sinne. But (say you) afterward as concerning then the [Page 42] inner man we may be said to serue the lawe of God / and thervpon be called the free seruantes of Christ / notwithstanding this corruption of sinne in the flesh: So the whole man by reasō of our imperfectnes may be said to be the servants of sinne. No / yt is not true / for the whole man is called after the part thath hat greather rule in vs: as if the fleshe rule in vs / we are the servaunts of sinne / and ledd by Satan at his pleasure / but if the Spirit rule in vs / we are the seruauntes of God / Sonnes of God / Sainctes of God / Citizens of Ierusalem / holie and free people / Kinges / and Priests: not that we are perfect / or sinne not / but that sinne reygneth not in vs / but the spirit / wherby we suppresse sinne / reprove sinne / striue against sinne / subdue sinne / and though we fall seuen times / yet we rise againe by repentance / and serue not sinne. Rightly therfore did I saye / that no man can serve two masters: for his servantes we are to whom we gyue [...] our selues as seruants to obey / whether yt be of sinne / vnto death / or of obedience / vnto righteousnes. Rom. 6.16.18. being made free from sinne / we are made the servantes of righteousnes: So that the regenerat man / or he that is by outward profession the servant of Christ / cannot be called the servant of sinne / by reason of the co [...]uption of the old man / and dregges of sinne / neither can he that standeth in bōdage to anie sinne / and giueth himself ouer to yt / be called in that estate the servant of Christ / till he repent / but the servant of sinne. 2. Pet. 2.19.
Therfore you must recant your false interpretation of Paul in the 7. to the Rom. and cease your blasphemous raylings / in calling the trueth of God / the rocke of Brownisme. And consider the height of your sinne / by concluding a bondage vnto sinne of the wholeman / for the corruptions of the fleshe / which through the worke of the Spirit is daylie subdued / though never vtterly rooted out of our earthlie members: and from the committing sinne through frayltie / an obstinate professed bondage to the false Church / false gouernment / false ministerie etc. which is plainly the marck of the Beast / to whom with outward obedience they bowe downe / and stand servants in his kingdome Revel. 14.9.11.12.
As for the 4. of the Galat. 26. where the Apostle saith / Ierusalem which is aboue is free with her Children / yo udurst not open yt / nor expound yt / but blaspheame / raile / and sclander / as though we should pleade for such a freedome / as should detract from Magistrates lawfull aucthorities / from having Gods ordinances established by commaundement vpon the Church etc. yea / that we should hold Anabaptisticall freedome / as though we had power not to committ / or consent vnto sinne wheras we haue euerie where by practise and protestation / by word and writing testified to our Souereigne Prince / and to all men / the contrary. But Satan that old accuser and detracter of Gods children / to deceaue the world / sendeth out such lyinge spirites to deface the trueth. We / with all subiection and willinge obedience to our souereigne. Prince / teach all men their obedience to the higher powers: Subiectes to [Page 43] Magistrates / Flocke to Ouerseers / children to Parētes / wines to their husbands / servantes to their Masters etc. in all things in the Lorde: and if they commaund vs anie thing contrary to the lawe of God / we then patientlie suffer without resistance / or rebellious thaughtes: The freedome then we haue to speake of here / which Christ hath purchased for vs / is / first that triumphe ouer Hell / Deathe / ād damnatiō / through the merites of Christ apprehended by faith / wayted for in hope / Rom. 8. Secondly / that because we were sonnes by election / he giueth vs the spirit of adoption / and sanctification / wherebie we mortifie the fleshe / have reigne and dominion ouer sinne / that yt shall never reigne in vs more vnto condemnation / repenting daylie our trespasses / and crauing pardon for our hidden sinnes / and secret faultes. Thirdly / we are throughe the same spirit and worde of trueth deliuered from all subiection of Antichist / of the false Church / false ministerie / false gouernment etc. And. they that haue not this freedome / are not by outward profession the seruauntes of Christ. Furder / we haue freedome from all traditions of men that seing we are bought with a pryce / we are no longer seruants of men / to be in bondage to anie beggerly rudimentes or devises of mē / but in all peaceable maner / to worship and serve God within the limites of our callings / according to the word of God / as yt is reuealed vnto vs: We haue freedome to speake the trueth with all boldnes / though all men should inhibite vs: we would not haue the doctrine limited / stinted / bought and sold / for Iewishe tythes or mercenarie stipendes.
We have freedome to seperate from such false▪ Prophetts as your self / to come out of Babel etc. And in the true Church to reproue and withstand anie sinne or traditions of mē in due order / only to be guided and gouerned by Christes lawes and ordināces: In all this I trust you shall not find anie Anabaptistrie in the freedome we professe: this is the truth of the Gospell / wherbie we are made free.
Thus then we still affirme / that they which stand in open knowen bondage to sinne / are the seruants of sinne / and not of CHRIST / till they repent / by outward profession. Furder / that allwhich stand members of your parish assemblies / stand not members of CHRIST by outward profession / but in bondage to a false and Antichristian ministery / gouernment / worship etc. and the bond woeman and her sonne must be cast out. Furder / for all liturgies, and other devises of mē besides the canonicall Scriptures and liuely graces of his Spirit / we hold they ought not to be brought into the publique assemblies / nor imposed vpon mens consciences: But if anie will write such / or reade such / let yt be for their private vse / as all other mens writings: we despise not any directions by word or writing / that may furder vs anie way to the practize of GODS ordinances / yet may they nether be imposed vpon mens consciences / not be made a part of GODS worship.
[Page 44]The Lorde therfore that hath thus far fourth discouered the [...]haff and mist of Antichrists delusions / euen to babes and sucklings / publish the glorious light of his blessed Gospell / that the people may see the counterfeit iuglinges of all such false Prophetts / and come out from amongst them / that you may be ashamed of your execrable wares / and forsake your Romish Priesthoode / and gyue glory to God / that yet offereth grace. Amen.