1 First I aske of the protestant what Church that was, which conuerted all these cuntries that be now Christian, to the faith of Christ?

IF you meane by Christians, true Christians, and by the faith of Christ, the true faith of Christ, I answere: only the true Church of Christ, hath had the worde of God and sacraments, as meanes which God vseth, to subdue al na­tions vnto the obedience of the faith, as was the primitiue Church of the Apostles, which hath continued vnto this daye by succession, not of personnes, and places, but of faith and truth, wherefore if the Papist can proue, that we holde not the same faith and trueth, vnto which the Apostles con­uerted the nations, we refuse to be called the Church or Congregation of Christ.

But if by Christians and Christian faith, you meane all them that professe the name of Christ, in the whole worlde, I aunswere, that the true Church of Christ, did not conuert them all, for in Aethiopia, there are yet people, conuerted by the false apostles, which taught circumcision, and obser­uation of the lawe, in which heresie they continue vnto this day, and it is manifest by all histories, that the nations of the Alanes, Gothes, and Vandales, were first conuerted by the Arrians.

2 And let him shew vnto me, that euer his Church conuerted any people, or lande in the earth, from Idolatrie, or Gen­tility, or Iudaisme, to the true Religion of Christ, or that this his fayth was taught to any Nation in steede of true Christianity.

VVE are members of that Church, which conuerted all landes in the earth that are conuerted, from Ido­latry, [Page 3]Gentility, Iudaisme, or heresie, to the true Religion of Christ, and we affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in steede of true Christiantie, but that which we hold, as we are readie to proue by the worde of God: And at this daye the most parte of Europe, is conuerted from Idolatrie, heresie, and Antichristianitie, vnto the same true faith, that we mainteine, as in England, Scotland, Ireland, France, Ger­many, Denmarke, Suetia, Bohemia, Polonia, by publike au­thoritie, in Spaigne, and Italie, a great numbre vnder perse­cution and tyrannie. Also of the Iewes, no small numbre are conuerted to our religion, since the rising vp of the Gospell in our dayes.

3 Or any Church, but the common Catholike Church to haue don that, and I recant.

BEcause you meane by the common Catholike, not the true Catholike, but the popish church: First I denie that euer the popish church conuerted any people, to the true faith. Secondly, I denie that the popish church hath conuerted all nations, to the profession of Christ: For, it is shewed before, that the false Apostles, and Arians, con­uerted some nations to the profession of Christes name, but yet to false religion, And it is also manifest by histories, that the Grecians, whome the papistes counte no parte of their church, but schismatikes, conuerted the Moscouites first of all, vnto the profession of the name of Christ, which yet con­tinue in their religion, being neither the true faith, nor yet popish religion. As for the popish church, as it is certeine, that it hath peruerted and corrupted all partes of the La­tine, or Westerne Church, with Idolatry and false religion, so it shalbe harde for the papistes to proue, that it hath con­uerted any Nation from Gentility to the popish religion, ex­cept some partes of Germanie, and them by force of armes, rather than by preaching, and teaching, as appeareth by the conuersion of Liuonia, Anno Domini 1200. of Prussia, Anno Domini 1254. and of Lithuania, Anno Domini 1386. wherefore I conclude that seeing I haue shewed that our Church, hol­ding [Page 4]the true doctrine of the Apostles, is that which conuer­ted all nations to true religion, and that the popish church, hath not conuerted any people to true religion, nor all peo­ple to the profession of the name of Christ, this chalenger, whosoeuer he be, do the recant.

1 I aske of him what Church it was, which hath induced the Christian people through the whole worlde, to geue most humble credit in all points, to the holy bookes of the Byble?

I Aunswere, it was the Church of Christ, and not the Po­pish church, which hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture, to be beleued of all true Christians where so­euer they be, although it be the office of the holy Ghost, to open the hartes of men, and to forme them that they may beleue the scripture to be true, like as it is the office of the scripture or worde of God, to trie and examine, whether it be the spirite of God that perswadeth vs to beleue any thing, so the spirite beareth witnesse to the worde and the worde to the spirite. As for the popish church it coulde not induce the Christian people to geue credit to the scripture in all pointes, because she is contrarie to the scripture in many pointes: and euen in the cheefest pointes of Christian Reli­gion, namely in pointes concerning the glorie of God, and the saluation of mankinde, geuing the glory of God to dead men, and dumbe Images, and denying the mercy of God, pourchased by the onely sacrifice of Christes death, to be the onely cause of mans saluation. Finally seeing it is manifest by the aunswere to the first article, that the popish church did not conuerte all nations, to the profession of the Christian faith, it is euident thereby, that the popish church did not induce all them, that are called Christians, to geue credit to the bookes of the holy Bible, as this chalenger woulde haue it to be thought.

2 VVhat Church hath had the discerning & seuering of them from other writinges of all sortes?

THe Church of Christ, hath not an absolute authority to allow or refuse bookes of the scripture, but a iudg­ment to discerne true writinge from counterfaicts, & the word of God, of infallible verity, from y ^e writing of men, which might erre, & this iudgement she hath, not of her selfe, but of the holy Ghost: as for the popish Church, it can not be said to haue this iudgemēt of discerning the scri­pture of God from other writings, not only because she is so blind that she can not discerne betwene y ^e Canonical bookes of the scripture, from the Apocrypha writings, as appereth by receauing the bookes of the Machabees, Ecclesiasticus, &c. to be of equall authoritie with y ^e bookes of the Law, Psalmes, &c. but also because she is so presumptuous, as to compel men to beleue, that Customes, and traditions, writinges of doctors, decrees of Popes, and Councells, are equall with the authoritie of God his worde, yea are of force, to alter and change the lawe of God, and the institution of Christ, set forth vnto vs in y ^e scripture. And although she boast that she receaueth all the bookes of scripture, yet this proueth no more that she is the Church of Christ, than was the churches of the Arrians, Donatistes, Nouatians, Euthychans, & other heretikes, which receiued the Bible, as well as the Popish church.

3 VVhat Church hath had the custodie of them, and most safe­ly hath preserued them, for the necessary vse of God his people, and from the corruption of aduersaries, as well of Iewes, as heretikes of all sortes?

THe prouidence of God, hath alwayes preserued the Scripture, both from the violence of tyrants, & from the falshoode of heretikes, and hath neuer suffred the true Church, to be destitute of the necessarie vse thereof. But the popish church, hath not kept the scripture for the necessary vse of the people, which hath so kept it in an vnknowen tongue, that the people coulde haue no vse, much lesse the necessary vse thereof: wherefore if this be a note of the Catholike Church, to kepe the worde of God [Page 6]for the necessarie vse of God his people, it is plaine that the popish church is not the Catholike Church, which hath kept the scripture so, that God his people coulde haue no vse thereof.

And if the only custodie of the scripture from corruption of heretikes, be a sure note of the Church, why is not the Greeke Church, the Catholike Church, which vnto this day hath kept the scripture as safely as the popish church? why are not other Estern Churches of Asia, which neuer acknow­ledged the Pope, or popish religion, true Churches, which likewise haue preserued the scripture, as we haue seen of late, that the newe Testament is printed in the Syrian tongue, at themperours charges, for the encrease of Christian faith a­mong them. And finally, why are not the Iewes, the Catho­like Church, which haue kept the old Testament in Hebrue, more faithfully than euer the Papistes. And because they boast of safe preseruing of the scriptures, all men, that are learned in the tongues can testifie, in how corrupt a Latin translation they haue kept the scriptures, both of the olde and of the new Testament.

4 And let the Protestant declare to me, that their Congrega­tion hath had from time to time, or euer had right herein, or any other Church, sauing the Catholike Church, and I recant.

OVr Congregation, which is the body of Christ, hath euer had, both right and possession of the inestima­ble treasure of the word of Christ her heade: as ap­peareth by this, that our Church and Congrega­tion beleueth nothing but that she learneth in it, acknowled­geth that all thinges profitable to saluation, are sufficiently conteined in it, and finally in all thinges submitteth her selfe to the iudgemēt of it. But the popish church, which beleueth many thinges contrarie to the scripture, teacheth many thinges beside the scripture, necessary to saluation, and re­fuseth to haue her faith, doctrine, and ceremonies, to be iudged by the scripture, neither hath, neither euer had, any [Page 7]right to the scripture, though she haue neuer so many bookes of them in possession. Wherefore these thinges considered, this chalenger doth recant.

1 Shew me why our common knowen Church, did not as well corrupt the text of the Testament, as the true religion conteyned in the same?

THere may be diuers good reasons shewed, why your Church, commonly knowen to be the church of Antichrist, did not as well corrupt the text of the Testament, as the true religion conteined therein. First, because she coulde not, the copies thereof being so many, by the prouidence of God dispersed throughout the worlde. Secondly, because she thought it not so needefull, hauing other meanes to worke her deuilish deuise: For, al­though she coulde not corrupt the scripture, yet it made the lesse matter, because she founde meanes to diminish, and controll the authority therof by aduancing decrees of men, Popes, and Councells, to be equall or of greater authoritie than the scripture. Thirdly, because she woulde be lesse in feare, to be reproued by the scripture, she prouided that the knowledge thereof, shoulde be hidden from the vnlearned people by a strange tongue, and from the learned, by the te­dious mazes of questions, deuised by her Canonistes, and Sententiaries. Fourthly, because she submitted all interpre­tation of the scripture, to her owne iudgement, and there­fore woulde not be controlled by the iudgement thereof, but woulde alwayes expound it, as it liked her best. As ap­peareth by Ockam, and Duns, who though they confesse, that transubstantiation, seemeth to them, contrary to the scrip­ture, and reason, yet they beleued it, because of the autho­ritie of the church, and for none other cause. These are the reasons, why the Romish church did not, as well corrupt the text of the Testamēt, as the true Religion. And yet how cor­rupt that Latine translation is, which they woulde needes [Page 8]thrust vpō vs, is sufficiently knowen to all learned men, euen in such texts, as are the most coulerable places for the de­fence of Popish doctrine. I will geue one example for all: They alleage the text 1. Cor. 10. Qui stat, videat ne cadat. He that standeth, let him take heede he fall not, against the cer­tainetie of faith, whereas the Greeke hath, not he that stan­deth, but, he that thinketh he standeth, let him take heede he fall not: Thus the popish church cannot altogether ex­cuse her selfe, from corrupting of the text of the Testament, whether it was of fraude, or of ignorance, or of negligence, the Lorde knoweth.

2 Shew me why, she kept not so safely, and faithfully, the true sense of God his word, as she preserued the word it selfe?

BEcause it was against her owne estimation, and profit, which are the chiefe endes for which popish Prelates mainteyne popish religion. Take away the Popes pre­rogatiue, which is contrary to the sense of God his word, downe goe Cardinalls, Legates, Prothonotaries: downe goeth all the Court of Rome, take away workes of superero­gation, which are contrary to the Scripture, downe goe Ab­beys, Priories and Chantries. Take away the sacrifice of the Masse, & Purgatory, which are contrary to the word of God, downe goeth the estimation, and gaynes of all the popish clergie: And this is the cause, why the popish church kept not so safely, and faithfully, the true sense of God his word, as she preserued the word it selfe, although she preserued not the word it self, in such safetie as becommed the Church of Christ.

3 Shew me why, we should beleue the Papistes, as you terme them, for the word it self, and rather you Protestants thā them, for the meaning of the word.

WE doe not chalenge credit to our selues, in any poynt, so presumptuously as the Papistes, that men must beleue it because we affirme it. But because we proue it to be true, by the worde of [Page 9]God. And therefore for the meaning of the word, you should beleue vs rather than them, because our groundes & proues are better then theirs, or else we require not to be beleued better than they.

4 Shew me why, you beleued our Church, telling you this to be God his booke, & will not credit her, auouching this to be the true and vndoubted sense of the same booke?

IF we had no better ground to perswade vs, of the autho­ritie of God his booke, than y ^e testimony of your Church, you may be sure we would not beleue it. But because we haue most stedfast assurance of God his spirite, for the au­thority of that booke, with the testimony of the true Church in all ages. If you say it is God his booke, we beleue you not, because you say so, but because we know it to be true. But if you bring out a false sense, we beleue you not, because we know it to be false, & are able to proue by the word of God, that it is contrary to the meaning of the holy Ghost. To be plaine with you, we geue as much credit to your Church, as to the deuill. When the deuill sayth: it is written: He shall giue his angells charge ouer thee, and with their handes they shall hold thee vp that thou dash not thy foote against a stone. We be­leue that this is the worde of God. But when he auoucheth this to be y ^e meaning of it, that we may cast downe our selues from a Church steeple, without daunger, we doe not beleue him, because we know this sense is contrary to an other Scri­pture, which sayth: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. So when you say these wordes are the Scripture of God: This is my body: We beleue it, because we knowe it to be true. But when you say this is the meaning of these wordes. This bread is turned into my naturall bodye, we beleue you not, because it is contrary to all places of Scripture, which proue the trueth of Christ his humanitie or naturall body. Thus I shewe you why we beleue you, if you say the Scripture is God his word, namely because we know it to be true, & why we beleue you not, saying this is the meaning of it, that is, because we knowe by the word of God that it is false.

5 Last of all, Shew me why, you beleued the olde known church, affirming this to be the word of God, and will not beleue her, affirming Luther to be an heretike, shew me good rea­son or Scripture for these thinges, and I recant.

IF you meane by the olde Church the primitiue Church, whose testimony of the word of God we allow & beleue, I deny that the primitiue Church did affirme Luther to be an heretike, or the doctrine that he taught, which we hold, to be heresie, but I am able to proue, that the primitiue Church, from which you haue receiued the Scripture, affir­meth your doctrine to be heresie, & your Church y ^e Church of Antichrist.

But if by y ^e old knowne Church, you meane the Church of old, knowne to be the Church of Antichrist, which is the po­pish church, we beleue the deuill if he speake the trueth, and we beleue not an Angell comming from heauen, if he bring any other Gospel, than S. Paule deliuered to the Galathians. Therefore when your church affirmeth Luther to be an he­retike, seeing we know that Luther did not obstinately, and malitiously erre, in any article of faith, concerning the sub­stance of religion, we doe not beleue her: and specially be­cause she is a partiall witnesse against him, whome God vsed to discouer, so much of her wickednesse, to her great hin­drance, there is no credit to be geuen vnto her, when she goeth about to deface him, by sclaunderous names, and false accusations. Thus I haue shewed these thinges that you re­quire, both by good reason, and also by scripture: Therefore if I may beleue you, you recant.

1 I demand, what Church hath mightely gonne through, borne downe, and fully vanquished, all heresies in times past, aswell against the blessed Trinitie, as other Articles of our religion?

I Aunswere, the true Catholike Church, hath alwayes re­sisted all false opinions, contrary to the worde of God, as her duty was, and fought against them with the sworde of the spirite, which is the worde of God, and by the aide of God obteyned the victorie, and triumphed ouer them. So did Paule ouercome the Iewes Act. 18. So did the fathers of the primitiue Church, from time to time, confute heresies, by the scriptures, and declare in their writinges, that by them they are to be confuted, for examples sake of a great num­ber, I will alleage a few. Hylarius, writing of the blessed Tri­nitie against heretikes Lib. 4. sayeth: Cessent ita (que) propriae ho­minum opiniones, ne (que) se vltrà Diuinam constitutionem, humana iudicia extendant: Sequamur ergo aduersus irreligiosas, & im­pias de Deo institutiones, ipsas illas diuinorum dictorum authori­tates, & vnumquod (que) eorum ipso de quo quaeritur auctore tracta­bimus. Wherefore let opinions propre to men geue place, and let not mens iudgements stretche them selues further than God his constitution. Therefore against these vnreli­gious and vngodly opinions of God, let vs follow the very authority of God his sayings, and handle euery one of them, by the aide of him, about whome the question is: Thus Hy­larius, woulde haue heresies against the Trinitie, to be con­futed, not by mens iudgement, but by God his word. Basilius magnus, very often testifieth, that he woulde haue all good thinges, proued by the scripture, and all euill thinges confu­ted by the same, In his moralles Dist. 26. Euery worde or deede, must be confirmed by the testimonie of holy Scrip­ture, for the perswasion of good men, and the confusion of wicked men: And in his treatise of Faith: we know, that we must now, and alwayes, auoide euery voice or opinion, that is differing from the doctrine of our Lorde. And in his short definitions to the first interrogation: whether it be lawefull or profitable for a man to permit vnto him selfe, to do or say any thinge, which he thinketh to be good, without the te­stimonie of the holy Scripture? he aunswereth: forasmuch as our Sauiour Christ sayeth: that the holy Ghost shall not speake of him selfe, what madnes is it, that any man shoulde presume to beleue any thing, without the authoritie of God [Page 12]his worde. By these, and many other places, it is manifest, that Basilius, woulde haue heresies and false opinions, con­futed by the holy Scriptures.

Chrysostome, vpon Luke cap. 16. sayeth, that the ignorance of the scriptures, hath bred heresies, and brought in corrupt life, yea it hath turned all things vpsidown, by which it ap­peareth, by what meanes he would haue heresies kept away, namely by knowledge of the scriptures. It were to long to reherse all the places of S. Augustine, by which his minde ap­peareth, that he would haue the Church, sought onely in the scriptures, and heretikes confuted, onely by the scriptures, to whose onely authoritie in many places, he professeth that he him selfe will be bounde, as Epist. 19. ad Hieronymum. Epist. 48. Vincentio. Epist. 111. Fortunatiano. Epist. 112. to Paulina, con­tra Faustum. lib. 11. cap. 5. Contra Cresconium Grammaticum, lib. 2. cap. 31. & 32. de Baptismo contra Donatistas lib. 2. cap. 2. De meritis & remissione peccatorum, contra Pelagianos lib. 3. cap. 7. De naturae & gratia cap. 61. De gratia Christi contra Pelagium cap. 43. De nuptijs & concupiscentia lib. 2. c. 29. In these places, S. Augustine preferreth the authority of the Canonicall scrip­ture, before all writinges of Catholike Doctors, of Byshops, of Councells, before all customes, and traditions. But that he would haue the true Church sought onely in the scriptures, it is manifest, by these places, first in his 48. Epistle to Vin­centius. Nos autem ideo certisumus, neminem se a communione omnium gentium iustè separare potuisse, quia non quisquam no­strum in iustitiae sua, sed in scripturis Diuinis quaerit Ecclesiam. speaking of the Donatistes, he sayeth. We are suer, that no man could iustly separate him selfe from the communion of all Nations, because none of vs seeketh the Church in his owne righteousnesse, but in the holy Scriptures. So if the Papistes woulde not presume of their owne righteousnesse, but seeke the Church of Christ in the scriptures, they would not separate them selues from the communion of Christes Church, now by God his grace inlarged farther than the Popish church. Also in his booke De vnitate Ecclesiae. cap. 2. he hath these wordes. Inter nos autem & Donatistas quaestio est, vbi sit Ecclesia. Quid ergo facturi sumus? in verbis nostris [Page 13]eam quaesituri, an in verbis capitis sui Domini nostri Iesu Christis puto quod in illius potius verbis eam quaerere debemus, qui ve­ritas est, & optimè nouit corpus suum. The question is betwene vs, and the Donatistes, where the Church shoulde be, what shall we doe then? shall we seeke her in our owne wordes, or in the wordes of her heade our Lorde Iesus Christ? I thinke we ought rather to seeke her in his words which is y ^e Truth, and best knoweth his owne body. So the question is at this daye, betwen the Papistes and vs, where the church is, let vs seeke in God his worde, there we shall easily finde her. To the same intent, he speaketh in the third, fiueth, and six­tenth Chapters of the same treatise. Furthermore, that he woulde haue heretikes confuted onely by the scriptures, he sheweth likewise in many places of his workes: for wri­ting against Maximinus the Arian, lib. 3. cap. 14. a place com­monly and often cited, he sayeth: but nowe, neither must I preiudicially bring forthe the Councell of Nice, nor then the Councell of Arimine, for neither am I bounden to the authoritie of the one, nor you of y ^e other, but let matter with matter, cause with cause, reason with reason, contend by au­thoritie of the scriptures, not proper to any, but indifferent witnesses to both partes. If Augustine would not oppresse the Arrians, by the authoritie of the Nicene Councell, which was the first, and the best generall Councell, that euer was, but only by the scriptures, how much lesse woulde he charge them with other authorities, that the Papistes alleage, beside the authoritie of holy scriptures. And in his booke De Vni­tate Ecclesiae against the Donatistes the 16 chapter: Sed vtrū ipsi Ecclesiam teneant, non nisi diuinarum scripturarum Canonicis libris ostendant, quia nec nos &c. But whether they holde the church or no: let them shew none other wise, but by the ca­nonicall bookes of holy Scripture, for we our selues doe not say, that men ought to beleue vs, that we are in the Church, because we holde that Church which Optatus of Mileuitum, or Ambrose of Millayn, or innumerable other Byshops of our communion, haue commended to vs, or because it is set forth by the Councels of our felowe byshops, or because so many myracles of hearing requests, or healinges, are don in [Page 14]the holy places, which our fellowship doth frequent in the whole worlde, so that the bodies of Martyrs, which were hidden so many yeares (which thinge if they will aske they may heare of many) were reuealed vnto Ambrose, and that at the same bodies, one that had bene many yeares blinde, very well knowen in the citie of Millayn, receyued his eyes, and eye sight, either because this man dreamed, or that man was rauished in the spirite, and hearde a voice, that he should not ioyne himselfe to Donatus, or that he shoulde departe from the faction of Donatus: for when soeuer such thinges are don in the Catholike Church, they are to be allowed, because they are don in the Catholike church. but the church it selfe is not therfore proued to be Catholike, because these thinges are done in it. By this Augustine declareth first that heretikes must be confuted, onely by the scriptures, and se­condly that neither Councells, succession of byshops, vni­uersality, miracles, visions, dreames, nor reuelations, are the notes to trie the Catholike church, but onely the scriptures. Moreouer in his booke De Pastoribus cap. 14. Quaerit infirmus Ecclesiam &c. A weake person seeketh the Church, he wan­dreth and seeketh the church, what sayest you? The church is of Donatus side. Enquire for the shepheards voice, Reade me this out of some Prophet, reade me this out of some Psalme, rehearse me it out of the lawe, rehearse it out of the Gospell, rehearse it out of the Apostle, out of them do I re­hearse the Church dispersed ouer all the worlde. And a litle after: Tu accusas non Euangelium &c. Thou accusest, not the Gospell, thou accusest not the Prophet, not the Apostle of whome this voyce speaketh to me I beleue him other I be­leue not. But thou wilt bring forth decrees, I will also bring forth decrees, shoulde I beleue thine? beleue thou mine like­wise. I beleue not thine, neither do thou beleue mine, then let mens writings be layd away and let Gods worde sounde be­twen vs: bring me one place of scripture for Donatus side &c. These places maye sufficiently declare by what meanes this doctor thought the Church shoulde ouerthrowe heresies, namely by the worde of God onely, which thing also Leo, the first byshop of Rome, in his Epist. 10. ad Fabianum contra [Page 15]Eutychen plainely confesseth saying: Sed in hanc insipientiam cadunt, qui cum ad cognoscendam veritatem &c. But those men fal into this foly, which when they are hindred by any doubt to knowe the trueth, haue not recourse to the voyces of the Prophets, not to the writings of the Apostles, not to the au­thoritie of the Gospell, but to them selues. And therefore they become, maisters of error, because they haue not bene schollers of trueth. Of the same iudgement was the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt, as appeare Actione 18. Si igitur omnes simpliciter &c. Therefore if all men from the beginning woulde haue simply and without subtiltie taken vpon them the preaching of the Gospell, and haue bene con­tent with the constitutions of the Apostles, suerly matters shoulde haue bene well, and in good case, neither shoulde painefull contention, haue bene exercised against the au­thors of heresies, nor against the fauorers of priests. Here the Councell confesseth, that the heretikes and schismatikes grow so fast, because they were not beaten downe, by prea­ching of the Gospell and authority of the scriptures. Thus I haue declared by example, and authority of these Fathers, that the true Church of Christ, hath conuicted all heretikes, onely by the scripture.

2 And what Church it was, that hath alwayes stande still, and stedfast, whilest all other Congregations, as well of Ar­rians, as Anabaptistes, Aerians, Nouatians, Vigilan­tians, Iouinians, and the rest haue decaied.

THe true Church of Christ, hath alwayes stoode sted­fast, and vnseparable, from Christ her heade, when all heretikes haue bene, and shal be confounded. But the true Church hath not alwaies florished in word­ly peace and tranquilitie: for vntill the tyme of Constantine the great, which was Anno Dom. 339. the Church had small rest from cruell persecution in most places: and soone after a­gaine vnder the Emperors Constantius, Constans, and Valons, it was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius, what time also Tiberius Bishop of Rome, was infected with the same heresie. [Page 16]After that when Iulianus the Apostata, was Emperor, the tem­ples of Idolls were opened, and gentilitie againe restored, so that the Church suffered great detriment. To be short, when the barbarous Goathes, Vandales, Alanes, and other Idola­trous or heretical nations destroyed the Empire, the Church of God suffered a great Ecclipse. But when Mahomet, in the East, & Antichrist the Pope, in the West, seduced the world with most detestable heresie, then was fulfilled that which was reuealed to S. Iohn in the 12. of the Apocalyps, the woman clothed with the Sonne, which you your self confesse to be the Church, was so persecuted by the Dragon, that she fled into the wildernes, there to remaine a long season. Where she hath not decayed, but ben always preserued, vntil God should reueale Antichrist, and bring her againe into open light, which (his holy name be praysed) is now brought to passe in our dayes, to our inestimable comfort, and his euerlasting glory.

3 And if it can be proued that either the Protestants Church or any other Church but ours, hath mightely ouerthrowne these foresayd sectes, and other of all sortes, I recant.

IT hath bene already proued sufficiently, that the true Catholike Church which is ledde onely, by the worde of God, as a most infallible rule, hath ouerthrowne heresies of all sortes. But the popish church which refuseth the on­ly weapon, by which heresies are cut downe, to be sufficient for that purpose, neuer was nor shall be strong enough to en­counter with heretikes, therefore she practiseth to vanquish those whom she counteth for heretikes, not by authoritie of the Scriptures, but by fire and sworde, and cruell warre, as appeareth by her dealing with the Waldenses, Albigenses, Bohemians, and in our dayes with the true Christians. But where her power of fire and sword could not preuayle, there hath she not ouerthrowne such as she condemneth for he­retikes, namely the Grecians church, & all other churches of Asia, and Aphrica, which vnto this day will not acknow­ledge her doctrine to be Catholike, nor her authoritie to be lawefull. Wherefore seeing the Popish church neither [Page 17]hath confuted those that are heretikes in deed, nor subdued those whom she counteth to be heretikes, if you be as good as your worde, you recant.

1 Againe, what Church is that, which hath exercised by Christes appointement, Discipline, vpon offendors in all degrees?

ONely the Church of Christ, by Christes appointe­ment, hath exercised true discipline vpon offen­dors, Although by meanes of persecution, she could not alwayes practise the same as she would.

2 And for that purpose, hath continually executed lawes and Canons Ecclesiasticall, with Excommunication, Degrada­tion, suspension, and such like.

THe Church of Christ only, hath had lawful authority to exercise discipline: but as it is said before, she hath not continually practised the same, because she could not, being hindered by persecution, and dispersion. Concerning excommunication, she hath practised it accor­ding to the word of God, and against such offendors, as the scripture iudgeth worthy of that seuere punishment: As for degradation, and suspension, it may be doubted what you meane by them: if you vnderstand by degradation, that such persons as the Church hath tried vnmeet, either for doctrine or manners, to execute the office of preaching, and mini­string the sacraments, she hath displaced and reiected from that charge: she hath also practised drgradation: And if you meane by suspension, that when the accusation of a mans doctrine or life was vncerteine, that she hath willed him to cease from executing his office, vntill his cause were tried either good or euill, she hath also vsed suspension: but if by degradation and suspension, you meane those foolish and wicked ceremonies, which the popish church now vseth and so termeth, I deny that euer the true Church of Christ had to do with such degradations and suspensions.

3 Proue me this geere to procede from Protestants, or from any other Church than the Catholike, and I recant.

IT is proued before, that true discipline belongeth to the true Church, wherof we are a part, which Church is suffi­ciently proued to be the spouse of Christ, because she is ruled in all thinges by his onely voice: And therefore all congregations of heretikes, which departe from the true worde of God, though they take vpon them, to exercise dis­cipline, by excommunication or otherwise, it is not to be re­garded, and lest of all the Popish church, where remaineth nothing of discipline and excommunication, but the very names: for what call you popish discipline? is not that it which they vse in Lent, whisking men on the heades, and women on the handes, with white roddes which they them selues call discipline? Or is it the seuere punishment that they vse against offendors by excommunication, suspension, interdighting &c. First, it is manifest they haue no excom­munication by Christes appointment, for neither it is exe­cuted by the persons appointed by Gods worde, nor against such offendors only as God his word appointeth: for wher­as our Sauiour Christ appointeth the order of that discipline, to the Congregation of such as are wise, godly, and carefull of mens health, which first shal labor by fatherly admonition and wholesome exhortation, to bring the offendors to re­pentance, whome if they refuse to heare, they are to be re­puted for hethens and publicanes, the Pope contrariwise re­ferreth the same to profane and vnreligious officers, which are more desirous to gaine the fees of absolution, than by bringing the party to repentance, to saue him from excom­munication. Moreouer whereas by Gods worde, excommu­nication is the last and most greuous punishment, that the Church can enioyne against any, of whom there is any hope of saluation, and therefore ought not to be practised but for haynous offences, the Popish church maketh it serue for euery trifling matter, yea for pettie debts and all, then com­meth in interdightings & suspensions of places, as churches [Page 19]and townes, yea whole realmes, for one mans faulte: what likelinesse hath this vnto the discipline of Christes church set forth in the scriptures, and practised by the fathers? with what face can you Papistes affirme, they haue discipline, in their Church, whē all penaunces for most horrible offences, may be bought out for money, and an open market thereof set vp at Rome, with the prices rated, what men must pay for euery thing that they buye: as absolution for him that hath killed his father, or mother, brother, sister, or wife Turones 4. Ducat. 1. Ca. line. 5.8. For an heretike before he haue abiu­red 36. Turones. and 9. ducates. For a witche 6. Turones. 2. ducates. For a priest that is a Sodomite, or hath lyen with brute beastes 36. Turones. 9. ducates. For a nonne that hath bene a common whore both within and without her Abby, with dispensation that she may be able to receiue any digni­tie, in her order, yea to be Abbesse, 36. Turones. 9. ducates. And so for all other offences, with dispensations, inhibitions, rehabilities, licences, relaxations, commutations, confir­mation, perinde Valeres Marcamas and the deuill and all for money: wherefore except you be to impudent, to acknow­ledge this to be Christian discipline, be as good as your pro­mise, and recant.

1 Againe from what Church, did all the solemne ceremonies, and obseruations, all festiuall dayes, all fastes, all distin­ctions, and varieties of seruice, by diuersities of seasons, and times of the yeare, (proceede.)

FIrst you must vnderstande, that we detest and abhorre all your beggarly ceremonies, which you counte holy and solemne obseruations: for we know, that God is not to be worshipped with such thinges but that the true worshippers must worship him in spirit & veritie Iohn 4. And seeing we know God, or rather are knowen of him, we will not regarde the weake and beggarly elementes, be­cause they are destitute of God his worde, which onely is [Page 18] [...] [Page 19] [...] [Page 20]able to geue them strength and estimation? as for your festi­uities, in the honour of creatures, we doe likewise abhorre them. we honour the Sainctes as S. Augustine sayeth for imi­tation, but we do not worship them for Religion. De vera Re­ligione cap. 55. Where he also saith. Quare honoramus eos cha­ritate, non seruitute. We honor them with loue, and not with seruice. And as he doth often affirme, that it is Idolatry to builde churches in the honour of Sainctes, so is it as great Idolatry, to institute festiuall dayes, in the fauour of the same Sainctes. As for the festiuall dayes that were vsed in the pri­mitiue Church, although they might haue bene omitted, without any hurt of Christian Religion, yet were they not kept in the honour of creatures, as they are of the Papistes, but only for the memorie of the Martyrs, and other Saincts, that their good life might be followed. Your fastes are also abhominable: for they are nothing else but abstinence from meates, created of God to be receiued with thankesgeuing, which S. Paule affirmeth to be the doctrine of Diuells 1. Tim. 4. Also your distinctions and varieties of seruice, because they consiste most of blasphemous prayers to dead Sainctes, and sometimes to damned spirites, with foolish lessons, re­sponses, versicles, &c. Lewde lies and vncertaine tales, which you reade and sing, as God his seruice, they are all abhomi­nable. In vaine do they worship me, saith our Sauiour Christ, teaching for doctrine the preceptes of men. Math. 15. Also it was decreed in the Councell of Laodicea, the 59. chapter, that nothing should be song or reade in the Church, but the Canonicall bookes of holy Scripture: wherefore if you de­mande whence your ceremonies, festiuall dayes, fastes, and varieties of seruice did proceede? I aunswere plainely, out of the bottomles pit of hell.

2 From whence did all thinges, yet indifferently for most part, obserued, and allowed, on both sides, from whence did they proceede?

IF you had vttered what thinges you meane, that are so indifferently allowed on both sides, we might better haue aunswered: but seeing you haue not, we must coniecture [Page 21]what you meane: if you meane any thinge that is allowed without controuersie on both sides, it did either proceede from the scripture of God, or from the primitiue Church or else it a thing meerely indifferent, but if it haue no grounde in holy Scripture, nor example of the primitiue Church, nor iudged meerely indifferent, it not indifferently obserued for the most parte, nor yet allowed on both sides.

2 And if it can be proued, that the Protestants Congregation, or any other Church, but ours, hath instituted and ordered all these, or any of these, for the comelinesse and honour of God his house, I recant.

I Haue aunswered before, that the Protestants Congre­gation, geueth you leaue to bragge, that you are the in­uentors of all these Idolatrous superstitions, & false wor­shipping of God, and yet because you offer so liberally to recant, if it can be proued that any Church but yours, hath instituted and ordered all these thinges, you shall he are what can be saide. First, your great doctor Durande, plainely affirmeth that many of your ceremonies, and solemnities, had not their first institution of your church, but were taken of the Iewes or Gentiles: And it may easily be proued, that many of your ceremonies, were instituted of heretikes, as your holy water which you say you vse to put men in minde of their baptisme, was deriued of y ^e heretikes called Heme­robaptistae, which were, baptized euery daye. Epiphan. lib. 1. Tom. 1. cap. 17. Of the Ossenes, you tooke the great estima­tion of water, salt, oyle, breade, &c. and vse to sweare by them, as they did. Epiph. contra Ossenes 19. Of the same here­tikes, you receiued the superstition of reliques, for they vsed to take the spittle, and other filth from the bodies of Marthys, and Marthana, which were of the seede of Elxai, that is, great Sainctes with them, and vsed them to cure diseases, as Eras­mus witnesseth, at Canterbury were kept the clowtes, In peregrina­tione Religi­onis ergo. that Thomas Becket did occupy to wipe of his sweate, and to blow his nose on, which were kissed as holy reliques, and thought also to be holsom for sicke folkes: of the same heretikes you [Page 22]learned to commande the people to pray, in an vnknowene tongue, as Elxai, the great Pope of those heretikes sayde: Nemo quaerat interpretationem, sed solum in oratione haec dicat. Let no man seeke the interpretation, but onely saye these wordes in his prayer. Which wordes were in a strange tong, either the Hebrue, or the Arabike. Epiphan. lib. 1. Tom. 1. hae­res. 19. Likewise the Marcosians when they baptized, vsed to speake certaine Hebrue wordes, that the ignorant people might maruell the more at them, as you doe in Baptisme Ephata, &c. Epiph. lib. 1. Tom. 3. haer. 34. To make the Images of Christ, and of the Apostles, and to sense them, you learned of the heretikes called Gnostici, and Carpocratirę, Epip. lib. 1. Tom. 2. in the preface Epiph. lib. 1. Tom. 2. haer. 27. and Irenaeus lib. 1. cap. 23. Of the Valentinians, you learned to haue in price the signe of the crosse, and to abuse the places of scrip­ture for the same superstitious vse: as, God forbidde that I shoulde reioice but in the crosse of Christ, &c. Irenaeus lib. 1. cap. 1. Epiphan. lib. 1. Tom. 2. haeres. 31. Of the Heracleo­nites, you learned to annoynte men at the point of death, with oyle, and balme, and to cast water vpon dead men, with inuocations. Epiph. lib. 1. Tom. 3. haeres. 36. Of the Cayanes, you learned to call vpon Angels. Epiph. lib. 1. Tom. 3. haeres. 38.

Of the Marcionistes, you learned to giue women leaue to baptize. Ep. lib. 1. Tom. Haer. 42. George, Bishop of Alexandria, inuented beares to carry deade corpses, charging all men to vse them for his owne aduantage, as doe you Papistes your bearing clothes & other toyes for funerall pompes. Ep. lib. 3. Tom. 1. Haer. 76. Of the Colliridianes, you learned to make i­mages of the virgine Marie, & worship them & her, with of­fering of candells, &c. as they did of cakes, &c. Ep. lib. 3. Haer. 79. Of the Messalians or Martirians, you learned to shaue your beardes and to let your lockes grow long. Ep. lib. 3. Haer. 80. Of the Pharizees, you receaued your superstitious mas­king garments, which you call amictus dalmaticus, and pallia, as witnesseth Epiphanius, in his epistle to Acacius, and Paulus. Last of all what say you to the ceremonies, festiuities, fastes, and solemnities, vsed in the Greeke Church, and in the other Oriental Churches, if they be sufficient to make their church [Page 23]Catholike, why doe you count them heretikes, and Schis­matikes? if they be not sufficient, why doe you reason of the institution of the like, to proue your Church Catholike? You see that proued which you desired, play the honest man ther­fore, and recant.

1 Further I aske them, what Church that is, which hath brought forth out of her wombe, so many noble personages, of Mar­tyrs, Confessors, Doctors, Virgines, and holy Sainctes, of all sortes, all which both they and we doe outwardly professe, by the continuance of the Callendare, which yet is vsed euery where, to be Sainctes in heauen.

FVrther I aunswere you, that all true Sainctes, whether they were Patriarches, Prophets, Apostles, Euāgelistes, Martyrs, Confessors, Doctors, Scholars, Virgins, wiues, widowes, married, or vnmarried, are all children of that Church, in whose fellowship we reioyce to be, and are our deare brethren and sistern begotten in Iesu Christ by the go­spell, and we all hold of one head Iesus Christ, as members of his mysticall body. We all beleue to be receaued into that glory that they are, by the onely meane that they were, that is by the mercie of God in Christ Iesus. But as for the conti­nuance of the Callendar, we haue litle respect vnto it, yea no regard at all, to vse it either as a recorde, or as a register of those whom we acknowledge to be Sainctes in heauen. Let the Prince make you aunswere, for the continuance of such callēders, for we haue not to do with them. Neuerthelesse be­cause you speake of a Callendar, that is vsed euery where, you declare that you haue small experience in Callendars, for euery cuntry hath them diuers in most dayes, except holy dayes, and in some cuntry Callendars, such dayes are festi­uall to those Saincts, that haue not their names in Callendars of other cuntries, yea it may be doubted whether they haue their names in the booke of life. If you sawe a Bohemians Callendar, perhaps if you shoulde see Iohn Hus, and Ierom [Page 24]of Prage, which your church condemned for heretikes, and haue as solemne feastes, in the Callender as Peter and Paule, wherefore we acknowledge those to be Sainctes in deede, not whose names are continued in the Callendars of men, but are written in the booke of life of the Lambe, that was slaine from the beginning of the worlde. Apoc. 13.

2 And if it can be proued by any man of the Protestancy, that these were either, of the Protestants Congregation, or beleefe when they were aliue.

IT is sufficiently proued against you, of the Papistrie, that all they, whome we acknowledge to be Sainctes in hea­uen, are members of the same mysticall bodie of Christ, that we are, and hold the onely foundation that we hold, which is Iesus Christ, and although some of them, builded straw and stubble vpon the same foundation, yet the Lorde hath not imputed it unto them. But wheras the Patriarches, Prophetes, and Apostles were cheefe lightes and pillers of the church of Christ, the daye is yet to come, and euer shal­be, that all you of the Papistrie, shalbe able to charge vs with one pointe of our faith, contrary to the doctrine of the Pa­triarches, Prophetes, and Apostles.

3 Or canonized and allowed for Sainctes by the Protestantes Church, when they were deade, or by any other Church, then I recant.

OVr Church doth take all them that shew the fruicts of a liuely faith, to be Sainctes, while they be aliue, as well as after their death, and we say with Dauid: All my delight is in the Sainctes, that are in the earth Psal. 16. and with S. Paule: VVe labour to comprehend with all Sainctes, what is the length, breadth, depth, and heigth, and to know the loue of Christ. Ephes. 3. Finally the scripture teacheth vs, to call all them that are sanctified in the bloude of Christ, and called to the felowship of the Gospell, holy and Sainctes of God. 1. Cor. 1. Ephes. 1. &c. Wherefore, your Popish church [Page 25]doth great iniury to the Sainctes of God, first, because she doth not so accompt them while they liue, and secondly, be­cause she referreth the canonization of them only to y ^e Pope, who not for their holy life, maketh them Sainctes, but for the holy honger of golde, as appeare by Pope Iuly 2. who woulde not canonize king Henry the sixt, at the request of king Henry the seuenth, vnder an vnreasonable summe of money. If that summe of money had bene paide, he shoulde haue bene a sainct, though he had not deserued, not for his vertue. And because that summe of money was not paide, he might not be canonized, although his godlinesse neuer so much deserued. Againe of what force your Canonization is to be esteemed, we may learne by a fact of Pope Boniface the 8. who condemned, digged vp, and burned the bodie of Hermannus in Ferraria, 30. yeares after his buriall, who had bene worshipped for a sainct aboue 20. yeares before, as wit­nesseth Platina and other. Gregorie the seuenth canonized Pope Liberius, which was an Arrian, as S. Hieronym testifieth, Moreouer if I shoulde likewise demande of you, what Pope canonized Peter, Paule, and the rest of the Apostles, yea most of the Martyrs of the primitiue Church, you shall neuer be able to shew me either what Pope did it, or that any Pope did it: For seeing none may canonize but the Pope in your church, and you can not proue that the Pope hath canoni­zed the Apostles and cheefe Martyrs, you can not proue that your church hath canonized the Apostles and principall Martyrs. But it is manifest that your canonization is taken from the heathen Senate of Rome, which chalenged autho­rity to make Gods, whome they them selues thought best. And if I shoulde rippe vp the most parte of those Sainctes, which haue bene canonically canonized by the Pope, it were an easie matter to finde them heretikes, traitors, Necro­mancers, Whoremongers, and whores, as you may reade in Bales Votaries aboundantly, beleuing his reporte no farther than he alleageth his Author, where you maye finde it. Wherefore it were wisedome for you, not to depend vpon the Pope his Canonization, but vpon God his approbation, and to recante.

1 And because Christ as S. Paule sayeth, hath established in his Church some Apostles, some Prechers, some Teachers, and Doctors euen vntill his comming againe, I aske the Protestant, what Church that is, which is able to shew & proue, the continuance and vse of the saide functions euer sence Christes time by plaine accompt of orderly Succession.

I Aunswere the Papist, that Christ hath geuen to his Church some Apostles, some Prophetes, some Euangelistes, some Pa­stors, and Teachers. Ephes. 4. and 1. Cor. 12. And we are able to shew & proue, that we continue in that vnitie of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God, for which ende such offices were ordeyned. But whereas you require, that we should shew you the continuance of those functions by or­derly succession from Christes his time vntill our dayes, you declare how small skill you haue in vnderstanding the scrip­tures, for the offices of Apostles, Euangelistes, and Prophetes, were not appoincted to continue alwayes in the Church, but for a time, vntill the Gospell had taken roote in the worlde. Moreouer, whereas you requier an orderly succession, accor­ding to persons, or places, you are neuer able to proue, that any such thing was promised to the Church, that we should shew you the performance there of in our Church. Other­wise we doubt not, but God hath alway stirred vp some faith­full teachers, that haue instructed his Church in the neces­sarie poinctes of Christian Religion. Although the worlde and the church of Antichrist did not alwayes see them.

2 And is able to name you by the histories of all ages, the notable personnes of all the forsaide states, in their go­uernment and ministerie.

A Gaine I answere you, that you are not able to name, me any text of scripture, by which you can proue, that al these offices must haue perpetual cōtinuance [Page 27]in y ^e church of Christ, nor yet that any of them should kepe an ordinarie succession of place or persons: But contrari­wise, seeing it was prophecied that the church should flie in­to the wildernes, that is, be driuen out of the sight and know­ledge of the wicked, and be so narrowly persecuted of the Romish Antichrist for a longe season, it were a token our church were not the true church, if we could name such no­table persons as you speake of, in all ages florishing in their gouernment and ministerie. And it is a good argument, that the Popish church is not the church of Christe, because it was neuer hidden sence it first sprang vp, in so much that you can name all the notable persons in all ages in their gouern­ment, and ministerie, and especially the succession of Popes, you can reherse in order vpon your fingers, in which bead­roole, neuerthelesse you must name many tyrants, many traytors, one whore, many whoremongers, many Sodomites, many murtherers, many poysenors, many sorcerers, and Ne­cromancers, and from Boniface the third, all blasphemous heretikes, and Antichristes. But our church, which hath not had so many registers, chroniclers, and remembrancers hath perhaps fewer, but yet honester men to name: we can name Peter, Paule, Mathew, Iohn, &c. Marke, Luke, Timothe, A­gabus, Epaphras, &c. Instinus, Irenaeus, Cyprianus, Athanasius, Hylarius, Ambrosius, Augustinus, &c. Gyldas, Bertramus, Mar­silius de Padua. Ioan. de Ganduno, Bruno Andagauensis VVick­leue, Iohn Hus, Hierome of Prage, &c. With the first, namely Apostles, Euangelistes, and Prophets, we consent wholly in all pointes of doctrine, with the rest, in the cheefe and most substantiall articles of faith, alwayes agreeing with any man, so farre as he agreeth with the worde of God.

3 And if he can proue vnto me, that their Church hath neuer lacked the same appointed officers, or that any Church or Congregatiō but ours hath kept that charge, thē I recant.

FOr some of those officers I haue twise aunswered be­fore, that they were not ordeined, to continue alwaies, with the church, wherefore they are not to be exacted [Page 28]of vs, but such officers as are necessary for the conseruati­on of God his people in the vnitie of faith and the know­ledge of Christ, our Church hath neuer lacked, although in time of the great defection and Apostasie whereof S. Paule doth prophesie 2. Thess. 2. there were but few, as there were but fewe members of Christ his Church notwithstanding that through iniurie of the time, the remembraunce of all their names is not come vnto vs. And although we could re­hearse in order as many successions in our Church as the pa­pistes boast of in theirs, yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Christ, which must be tried onely by the Scriptures, as S. Augustine sayth in his booke de vnitate Eccle­siae, against the Donatistes cap. 16. Sed vtrum ipsi Ecclesiam te­neant, non nisi diuinarum Scripturarum canonicis libris ostendant, quia nec nos propterea dicimus nobis credere oportere quod Eccle­siae sumus, quia ipsam quam tenemus commendauit Mileuitanus Optatus, vel Mediolanensis Ambrosius, vel alij innumerabiles no­strae communionis Episcopi, &c. But whether they holde the Church or no, let them shew none otherwise, but by the ca­nonicall bookes of holy Scripture, for we our selues doe not therefore say that men must beleeue vs that we are in the Church because we hold the same Churche, which Optatus of Mileuitum hath commended, or Ambrose of Millayn, or in­numerable Bishops of our communion. Euen so we require at the Papistes handes that shewe them selues to holde the Church not by succession of Bishops, or rehearsing of their names, but onely by the Scriptures: for although we did re­hearse innumerable names of Bishops in orderly succession on our side we would not require men to beleue vs, but one­ly because we proue the doctrine of our Church by the au­thoritie of the Scriptures. But as for the popish church, ney­ther hath nor euer had any of those officers which S. Paule speaketh of, for Apostles, Euangelistes, and Prophets, she can chalenge by no reason, seing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writings, in steede of pastors & rea­chers she hath wolues, dūme dogges, or false prophets, which either teach not at all, or else teach the doctrine of deuills & the dreames of men. And further I would desire none other [Page 29]place in all the Scripture, to ouerthrow the popish Hierar­chie (which is the greatest glory of their Church) then this place of Paule, Ephes. 4. he speaketh of Apostles, Euangelists, Prophets, Pastors and teachers. But where are Popes, Cardi­nalls, popish archbishops, Bishops, Preestes, Deacōs, Subdea­cons, Exorcistes, Cantors, Acolyts, Ostiares, Monkes, Friars, Chanōs, Nunnes, &c. Wherfore I cōclude that all these po­pish orders are no offices in the Church of Christ. And espe­cially, seeing the Apostle both in this place Eph. 4. and 1. Cor. 12. by these offices proueth the vnitie of minde, he acknow­ledgeth no Pope as one supreme head in earth, which might be very profitable (as the Papists say) to mainteine this vnity: for if there had bene any such office appoynted of God, S. Paule in no wise woulde haue omitted it, especially when it made so notably for the confirmation of his purpose, which was vnitie. To conclude if it be sufficient, or any thing worth, to rehearse the names of them that haue orderly succeded in all ages in the bishops sees, in an outwarde face of the Church, the Greeke Church is able to name as many as the Latine Church, and in as orderly succession. Wherefore if you be as ready to performe as to promise, you recant.

1 And for the necessary vse and execution of the foresayd of­fices, they must further be asked, what Sacramentes the Protestants ministred for the space of a thousand yeares togither, in which they confesse their congregations to haue bene neare or else wholy hidden.

THey ministred those Sacramentes which Christ did institute, namely the Sacrament of baptisme, and the Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, at such times as the cruell tyrannie of you Papistes did not hinder them, to come togither for such purposes.

2 VVhat correction they kept and discipline for offenders.

THey did vse such discipline as was vsed in S. Cypri­ans time, when persecution hindered not the free course of it. As he doth often complaine in the pla­ces aboue rehearsed. They did admonish secretly, before witnesses, and when persecution stayed them not, they did also excommunicate.

3 To whome they did preach their Fayth.

TO such as woulde geue them hearing, as VVickleue to the Englishmen: Iohn Hus to the Bohemians: VValdo to the Frenchmen, and so of the rest.

4 How did they reproue heresies?

THey reproued heresies, by the worde of God, and pa­tient sufferinge of your tyrannie: the one you may reade in their workes, that are yet extant of VVick­leue, Bertrame, Hus, &c. The other in histories of your owne writers.

5 VVhere did their principall Pastors sit in Iudgement?

I Might aske you where the Apostles did sit in iudgement and you are neuer able to shew me, for I reade as one sayth: that they stoode often to be Iudged, but I neuer reade that they sat in iudgement vpon others: And so I aunswere of the principall Pastors of our Church, especially in time of persecution.

6 VVhere did they gather as in Councells to try the trueth of doubtfull matters?

AS God gaue them respight, from your tyrannie, they had conference one with an other: and as for doubtes, they tried them by the worde of God, and not by number of voyces, as you do in your coun­cells, as for the places where they met, is nothing at all ma­teriall, at Prage, at Lyons, at Merindol, &c.

7 How might Christian men, iustly offended with some of their brethern, haue sought out your officers or Congregation, to make complainct of him?

YOu are void of all reason that in a persecuted church, will require all thinges to be so formall and orderly, as in time of peace and quietnes, I could choke you with putting like cases of your Church. If a number of Papistes be carried prisoners into Barbarie, or Turkey, what Sacraments, what discipline, what Iudgement haue they a­mong them, if one be offended with his brother how shall he come to your officers, or to your Church to complaine. In such cases where the ordinary authoritie of the Church is hindred by persecution, or otherwise, the rule of S. Paule. 1. Cor. 5. may serue and ought to be obserued: If any that is cal­led a brother be a fornicator, or couetous, or an Idolater, or a ray­ler, or a drunkard, or an extorcioner with such one eate not. So that if a Christian be iustly offended with his brother, he ought to absteine from his company. And if he may haue ordinary au­thoritie, he may complaine further.

8 Or how if it had liked any man to haue ben baptized of them, or to haue receiued the communion of them, or to haue bene married of them, or to haue ioyned them selues in Fayth and Religion to them, how might I say that secret, contemptible, and vnknowne company, be founde in this case?

HE must haue sought them out as well as he could, & if he had bene perswaded, that they onely ministred the Sacraments, & Ecclesiasticall rites, sincerely, ac­cording to the word of God, it were no great mat­ter for him to find them, seing he knew by whom he was so perswaded, and of them might also be informed where he should haue them. I maruell you are not ashamed to demaūd these questions, as though it were materiall to discusse, whe­ther of vs hath the Church, to haue the Church so manifest, [Page 32]that euery man may see it. Doe you not remember how ma­ny schismes haue bene euen in the popish church, more thē twenty, and sometime two Popes at once, sometime three, & sometime fower, which of them should a simple Papist take for head of the Church, especially in the 22. schisme, which lasted 39. yeares: one Pope sitting at Rome, an other at A­uinion, either hauing his court, either hauing and making Cardinals, either cursing other. Or in the 23. schisme, when the question was of one of the highest pointes in all popery, and is not yet throughly decided among them: Whether the Pope be aboue the Councell, or the Councell aboue the Pope. In the time of these schismes how might a man haue founde out, which was the true Church, which was Christes vicare in earth, which had the right Sacraments and Sacra­mentalls, to which Popes court should he appeale, where did the principall Pastors sit in iudgement, &c. How should coun­cells be gathered, which Pope shoulde confirme their actes, &c, When you are able to aunswere these questions, for your owne church, then you may better require them of ours. As for that secrete, contemptible, and vnknowne company of our Church, in the sight of the world, was neuerthelesse ma­nifest, glorious, and knowen to our Sauiour Christ, and the liuely members of his body.

9 If therefore you can shew me, that any man euer sought Iu­stice or knowledge of trueth, sacrament, or faith, or any helpe of Saluation at the Protestants secret and close con­gregation, or any other where, but of Gods knowen Catho­like Church, I recant.

ALthough it be to litle purpose to aunswere this de­mande, because it is no reason to say, these thinges hath not bene, because chronicles make no mention of them: yet that all men maye see, how farre you ouershoot your selfe, I wil partely satisfie your request. Charles the great sought knowledge of the trueth of the sacrament of Bertramus. Iohn, Duke of Lancaster, and diuers other noble men were instructed in our Religion by VVickleue. The land [Page 33]of Bohemia, was conuerted by Iohn Hus, and Hieronym of Prage, and sought the sacraments of them. Finally, you al­wayes forget the Greeke church, which you do not accompt parte of the Catholike church, and yet you can not deny but men haue sought Iustice, sacramentes, faith, &c. of it. There­fore if a man might trust you vpon your worde, you recant.

1 Moreouer I aske whether for all these many hundreth of yeares or euer els before there was any temporall Prince or Potentate, that offered to be vnder God a minister of Iustice and an executor of Christian lawes in the right of your Congregation, that euer maintained by lawes Ciuill or other, your Faith and Congregation, and I recant.

BEfore y ^e general defection, it is an easy matter, to name you the Emperours and Princes which both offered, to be ministers of Iustice in the right of our church, and also mainteyned our faith and Congregation, by Ciuill lawes, as Constantine the greate, Iouinianus, Valentinia­nus, Theodosius, Archadius, Honorius, Marcianus, Iustinianus, Mauricius, and diuers other. But when the kinges of the earth had committed fornication with the great whore of Babylon (as the holy Ghost foresheweth Apoc. 17. and 18.) it is no pre­iudice to our cause if we can not shew, any of them that haue mainteined our Religion. Yet because you make so gentle an offer vpon the triall of such a matter, which is of small force either to the hurt of our cause or the maintenance of yours, I will let you vnderstande what I haue reade for this purpose. Not doubting but other which haue reade much more, and seene more auncient histories than I, can shew you a great deale more. I passe ouer as to well knowen, how many of the Grecian Emperors resisted the setting vp of I­mages, in so much that in the Greeke church to this daye they can abide none in their temples, likewise I passe ouer Charles the great, who wrote a booke against Images, which [Page 34]is in printe, who also declared, that he liked not the heresie of the reall presence and transubstantiation, which in his time was in forging, in that he called Bertrame, to declare his minde of that matter, as appeareth by his booke, which is also in printe. I will not rehearse those princes, that contra­ry to the Popes lawes, defended their priestes, that were ma­ried: For although these and such like defended some parte of the trueth, which we holde against you, yet lest you should obiect, it was but in some one or two pointes, I passe them ouer with silence. But VVickleue, I wene, you will not deny, but he was of our Church and Religion. And I reade that king Edward the third, both in his Parliament holden Anno Domini, 1371. and at other times with diuers other noble men defended his cause: in so much that so long as he liued, all the popish byshops, coulde do him no harme, yet did he openly inueigh against the Pope, calling him Antichrist, and all popish doctrine without any couller or dissimulatiō both in the vniuersitie of Oxeford, where he was reader, and also in his sermons abroade, as appeareth by his bookes and En­glish homilies, which yet are cōmon to be seene, w ^e vnlesse he had bene supported, and maintained by the kinge and other potentates, coulde neuer haue continued so long as he did. Further, haue you not hearde of Zisca, and Procopius, two mighty Capitaines, which defended the Bohemians from the tyrannie both of the Emperour, the Pope, and almost all the Princes of Germanie? For what cause did Paule the se­cond Anno Domini, 1466. condemne George, a noble and a worthy Prince, king of Bohemia for an heretike? and depri­ued him of his kingdome? was it not for defending the Pro­testantes in his dominion? Thus you see that some Princes and Potentates haue not onely offered but haue in deed, ta­ken in hand to defend our church, which you thought vnable to be shewed, wherfore I chalenge your promise, you must recante.

1 Againe I requier of the Protestants to declare by good hi­stories, or by reasonable likelihoode when the true church, as they compt theirs, decayed?

I Answer, euen in the Apostles time, there arose many he­resies which did not a litle trouble the Church, but im­mediatly after the Apostles time, while the fathers of the church were earnestly occupied, in resisting of horrible heresies, by the craft of Satan, some errors and abuses crept into the true Church of Christ, which at the first because they were small, and men occupied in greater matters, were either not espied, or not regarded: as may be knowen by the wri­tinges of Iustinus Martyr, and Irenaeus, two of the most aun­cient writers, sence the Apostles time. Iustinus, was in this er­ror, that he thought that the Angells lusted after women and therefore were turned into Deuills. It seemeth also, that the Church in his time, was in some error, about second ma­riages and diuorcements. Irenaeus, affirmeth, that our Sauiour Christ liued here 50. yeares, which he sayeth was receyued of them that heard it, euen of the Apostles mouthes. Also both he and Papias, which was before him and was the disci­ple of S. Iohn: are charged by S. Ieronym, in Catalogo Script. Eccl to haue held this error, that Christ should raigne a thou­sand yeares after the Resurrection here in the flesh, whereby it is manifest, seeing these auncient fathers, and pillers of the Church were thus stayned with errors, that the Church in their time, could not be free from the same. And so it is eui­dent, that the true Church decayed immediatly after the A­postles times.

2 VVhat yeare the Religion of the Papistes came in and pre­uayled?

ALthough many abuses and corruptions were entred into the church of Christ immediatly after the Apo­stles time, which the deuill planted as a preparatiue for his eldest sonne Antichrist. Yet we may well say, [Page 36]that the religion of the Papistes came in, and preuailed, that yeare in which the Pope first obteyned his Antichristian ex­altation, which was in the yeare of our Lord 607. when Boni­face the third, for a great summe of mony, obteyned of Pho­cas, the trayterous murtherer, and adulterous Emperour, that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted, the head of all the Church. Since that time, that deuilish heresie hath alwayes increased in error, vntill the yeare of our Lord 1414. in which the Councell of Constance decreed, to robbe the people of the Sacrament of Christ his blood. From this time it hath againe decaied, being mightely subdued by the bright beames of the Gospell, shining in the world, and at the length shall be vtterly destroyed.

3 VVhether all their true Church was so soundly sleeping, that none could preach against it as it first entred.

WHen the cōming of Antichrist was in all power of lying signes, 1. Thess. 2. Math. 24. and wonders, in so much (that if it were possible) the very elect should be decei­ued, and a general departing from the faith was foreshewed, and the Church to be driuen into the wildernes, what maruell were it? if none of our Church could preach against it, as it first entred: yet because you speake of the first entring of popish religion, which dependeth chiefly vpon the Popes authoritie, you shall heare, that when it first began to aduaunce it selfe, there wanted not some, either to preach or write against it. When Victor, bishop of Rome about the yeare of our Lord 200. passed the bondes of his authoritie, in ex­communicating of all the Churches of Asia, many bishops withstoode him, and especially Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons, and Policrates of Ephesus, as witnesseth Eusebius, libro 5. cap. 25. Eccle. S. Cyprian, also reproueth Cornelius, bishop of Rome, for that he was moued by threatning of heretikes to receiue their letters, & did not send them backe into Africa, to their own bishop lib. 1. Ep. 3. Also when Stephanus, bishop of Rome, was bold to communicate with Basilides, and Martialis, two Spamards, that were iustly excommunicated and deposed by [Page 37]y ^e bishops of their owne prouince, & sought to restore them: Cyprian and his felow bishops of Aphrica, being required to giue their aduise, gaue counsell, that in no wise they shoulde be receiued, not a litle blaming Stephanus, that beinge far of, and ignorant of their cause, he would take vpon him, to de­fend such wicked men. lib. 1. Ep. 4. Likewise when the same Stephanus, threatned excommunication to Helenus and Fir­milianus, and almost all the Churches of Asia, because they thought that such as were baptized by heretikes, shoulde be baptized againe: he was misliked by Dionysius of Alexandria, and diuers other godly bishops, as appeareth by his Epistle wrytten to Xystus. Euseb. lib. 7. [...]ap. 5. Cyprian also reproueth him very sharply, for the same opinion, accusing him of pre­sumption and contumacy Epi. ad Po [...]npeium, and in his epistle to Quintinus, he sayth plainly, that Peter himselfe was not so arrogant, nor so presumptuous that he would say he held the primacy, & that other men should obey him as his inferiors. When Anastasius, Innocentius, Zozimus, Caelestinus, bishops of Rome all on a row, chalenged prerogatiue ouer the bishops in Aphrica, by forginge a faise Canon of the Nicene Coun­cel, they were withstoode by all the bishops of Aphrica, who decreed, that none vnder paine of excommunicatiō, should appeale to any bishop, beyond the sea, Concil. Aphrican. cap. 92. and that the bishop of the chiefe see, should not be called prince of priestes, or highest priest, but onely bishop of the chiefe see. Conc. Aph. cap. 6. When Celestinus by shop of Rome dealt hardly with the Nouatians, Socrates testifieth, he could doe not good with them, because they enuied his ambition, saying that the bishoprike of Rome, like as of Alexandria, was long before growen beyonde the bondes of priestbood, into foreine lordship. Lib. 7. cap. 11. By these examples it is plaine, that although the mysterie of iniquitie, beganne to worke in Victor, Cornelius, Stephanus, Anastasius, Innocentius, Zozimus, Bonifacius, and Caelestinus, yet it was reproued, by some godly men: as Irenaeus, Polycrates, Dionysius Alexan­drinus, Cyprianus, the Councell of Aphrica, and Socrates the Historiographer.

4 VVHether all nations sodenly and in one yeare were moued to the doctrine of the Papistes, no one man of all their true Church neither preaching, teaching, writing, nor attemp­ting any thing against it, or making mention of it.

WHen the scripture telleth vs, that the mysterie of iniquitie, preparing for the generall defe­ction, and reuelation of Antichrist, wrought euen in S. Paules time 2. Thess. 2. it is foly to aske, whether sodenly and in one yere all Religion was cor­rupted. And yet all nations neuer consented to the doctrine of the Papistes, for as it hath bene often saide, the Greeke church, and other Orientall churches, hath neuer receiued the Popish religion, in many cheefe pointes, and especially, in acknowledging the Popes authoritie: what preaching, teaching, and writing hath bene against it, is shewed before, and shalbe more declared hereafter.

5 VVhether sodenly all bookes of seruice were altered?

NO forsoothe, but by litle and litle, in the Latine Church: as for the Greeke & Orientall Churches, neuer receyued nor vsed your Latine seruice bookes.

6 VVhether in a moment, the Masse was saide in steede of other Apostolike Communion?

VVHen Durande, your owne doctor, sheweth what Pope sewed on euery patche, that be­longeth to your Masse, it were foly for vs to say: it came in sodenly, and impudencie in you, to affirme that it came whole from the Apostles, which was so long a framing in so many peeces.

7 VVhether men beganne sodenly to praye for the soules de­parted?

FIrst it is manifest, that men had no warrāt out of God his worde to pray for the dead: and it can not be pro­ued for 200, yeares after Christ, by any credible au­thor, that it was vsed in the Church: wherefore it is certeine, that it was first planted by the deuill, as were other abuses: And because it hath a pretence of Charitie, decey­ued simple men the sooner. Yet did it not so preuaile, in the primitiue Church, that they durst define, what profit the soules receyued thereby: for Chrysostome in his 3. Homelie, vpon the first Chapter of the Epist. to the Philippians, sayeth: Procuremus eis aliquid auxilij, modici quidem, attamen iuuemus eos. Let vs procure them some helpe, small helpe truely, but yet let vs helpe them. Likewise, Augustine in the 9. booke and 13. Chapter of his confessions, where he prayeth for his father and mother, declareth how vncertaine he was of that matter, one while he feareth the danger of euery soule that dieth in Adam: An other while he beleueth, that they neede not his prayer, yet he desireth God to accept the same, and moue other men to remember them in their prayers: Thus it is necessary that they wander, which leane vnto mens tra­ditions without the worde of God.

8 Sodenly required the helpe of Sainctes in heauen?

VVHether sodenly or by litle and litle, men were brought to such superstition, that they requi­red helpe of Sainctes, it maketh litle matter, seeing it is contrary to the worde of God, and the example of the primitiue Church, for 200. yeares after Christ. Yet it is to be thought, that it grew vp, as other er­rors, by litle and litle. And S. Augustine in his booke, De cura pro mortuis agenda, wearieth him selfe, and in the ende can define nothing, in certeine, how y ^e Sainctes in heauen should heare the prayers of men, on earth. Such doubtfulnesse they fall into, that leaue the word of God, and leane to traditions.

9 Sodenly the tongue of common prayers altered?

FIrst y ^e Greeke church, & other churches both in Asia, & Aethiopia, neuer receiued the Latine tongue: but to this day continue in their vulgare tongue. The We­sterne Church, for the most parte all spake and vnder­stoode Latine, as the sea coast of Aphrica, Italye, Fraunce, Spayne, Britayne: as for Germany, was lately conuerted to the faith. Then seeing they spake Latine, and had their com­mon prayer in Latine: The tongue of their common prayer was not altered, but their speach was altered from the tongue of their common prayer: and this was not sodainely, for it was more than twelue hundred yeares after Christ before it was taken for a Catholike doctrine, that common prayer should be vsed in latine. S. Augustine preached in latine & all the people vnderstoode him, and that they might the better vnderstand him, he doth vse such phrases and termes which were not pure latine, but commonly vsed of the people as Ossum, and Faenerare, &c. But soone after his time, when the Gothes, and Vandalles, oueranne the Empire, the latine tongue which before was not pure among the people, began daily to be more corrupted, and yet remained after a sort la­tine, vntill the yeare of our Lorde 768. when Charles the great began to raigne in France, and long after: for within the time of his reigne, which was 47. yeares, a Councell was hol­den at Turon, in France, what yeare it is not certeyne, but it is probable, that in the latter ende of his empire, in which it was decreed, that euery bishop, should haue certeine homi­lies Et easdem quisque apertè studeat transferre in rusticam Ro­manam linguam aut Theotiscam, quo facilius cuncti possint intelli­gere quae dicuntur. Turon. 3. cap. 17. And that euery one studye to translate them plainly, into the rusticall Romane tongue or into the Theotisce tongue, that all men may more easily vnderstand what is sayd. By this Canon, it is euident, that at this time, the people vnderstood the Latine tongue, though it were very rude and rustical. And where the Canon prescri­beth the same homilies to be translated either into the rude latine tongue, or into the Theotisce tongue. Although this word Theotisca, seeme to be corrupted, yet it is most certeine [Page 41]that they meant Dutch tongue, for as much as Carolus mag­nus, had a great part of Germanie vnder his dominion, and the Germanes, as neuer throughly subdued by the Ro­manes, neuer throughly receiued the latine tongue. Yet it is manifest, that they vnderstoode their common prayer in the latine tongue, though not perfectly, because the Ca­non sayth: Quo facilius &c. That all men may more easely vnderstand, signifying that they vnderstood the pure latine tongue though hardely and not perfectly. About the yeare of our Lorde 813. the knowledge of the latine tongue, be­ganne more and more to weare awaye, from amongest the common people, which when the bishops perceiued, they decreed in the Councell of Magunce, cap. 25. that euery Son­daye, and holy daye, there shoulde be a sermon in such sorte, that the common people might vnderstand it: and in the 45. Canon. they decreed, that euery Christian, shoulde learne the Creede, and the Lorde his prayer, Et qui aliter non potue­rit, vel in sua lingua hoc discat, that is, And he that can not, yet let him learne it in his owne tongue. Whereby they de­clare, that they desier to reteine the latine tongue still, but rather than the people shoulde be ignorant, they commande them to learne their prayers and beleefe in their mother tongue. Also by the 43. Canon, wherein they iudge that no preeste can saye Masse alone, it appeareth that the people commonly vnderstood the latine seruice: for they aske how he shoulde saye: Dominus vobiscum, and admonish the peo­ple to lifte vp their heartes, and diuers like sayinges, where there is none by him but him selfe. Nowe if the people vn­derstoode not these sayinges, it were all one, whether they were present or absent. Also in the Councell of Rhenes, hol­den in Fraunce about the same time, the like decree was made cap. 15. that bishops studie to preache sermons, and homelies of the holy fathers so that all men maye vnder­stand, according to the property of their tongue. Finally in the Councell of Laterane holden vnder Pope Innocent the third, Anno Dom. 1215. in which Councell transubstantiation was first established, the 9. chapter, it was plainely decreed that forasmuch as within one citie and diocesse people of [Page 42]diuers languages be mingled together, hauing vnder one Faith, diuers rites, and maners, we streightly commande, that the bishops of such cities and diocesses, prouide able men, which according to the diuersitie of their rites, and lan­guages, celebrate vnto them, the diuine seruice, and mini­ster the sacramentes, instructing them both by worde and example. Hereby it appeareth, that when the latine tongue, was either almost, or altogether growen out of the common peoples vnderstandings, order was taken that common pray­ers should be sayed and sacramentes ministred in the mother tongue of euery nation. But the bishops which shoulde haue seene it put in execution, either negligently omitted it, or willingly refused to doe it, because it was more for their pro­fit to kepe the people in blinde ignorance. So thus I haue shewed, that sodenly the tongue of common prayer, was not altered.

10 Tell me what yeare of our Lorde, vnder what Emperour, vn­der what Pope, by whome these thinges were wrought, vpon what occasion, this marueillous mutation was made?

WHo can tell the originall of euery blind custome and peuish tradition, of euery olde error and foolish fashion it is sufficient to shew, that these thinges haue no grounde in the scripture of God, they were not taught by Christ and his Apostles, nor receiued in the church that followed immediatly after them, and then we are bolde to say, with Tertullian: This preiudice there is against all heresies, how soeuer they came vp or when soeuer they sprange vp, That is true that was first, and that is false, that is latter, therefore from the beginning it was not vsed to praye for the deade nor to the deade, from the beginning common prayer was not in an vnknowen tongue. Wherefore prayer for the deade and to the deade, with prayer in a strange tongue are false, when soeuer they beganne, or how long soeuer they continued.

11 VVho preached against it, what historie maketh mention [Page 43]of it, who of all your Pastors preached against it, was God his Church so voide of the spirit of Trueth, and strength, that euen then when it most florished, it had none that durst open against such corruption of religion, as it entred in, and when it might soone haue bene repressed?

BEfore you demande what yeare the religion of the Pa­pistes came, in and whether it came in sodenly: and as though we shoulde aunswere that it came in sodaine­ly, you demande, who preached against it &c. This is to fight with your owne shadowe: for we say not that it came in sodainely, but that it entred by small degrees at the first and therefore was lesse espied by the true Pastors, especially being earnestly occupied against great heresies, and open aduersaries, that sought to beate downe the cheefe founda­tions of Christian faith, as the Valentinians, Marcionistes, Manichees, Arrians, Sabellians, and such like monsters. So when Satan had gotten in one foote, by such craftie pollitie, he neuer rested, vntill he had thrust in his whole bodie, with the power of Antichrist.

12 If it coulde not, shew me then what yeare of the Lorde this mutation was made, and who of all the true preachers did with stand this doctrine?

SO often as you demande one thinge, so often must I aunswere after one sorte, this mutation was not all in one yeare, nor in one hundreth yeares, nor in one thousand of yeares, for transubstantiation no small ar­ticle of your religion, was not decreed vntill the yeare of God 1215. what preachers haue withstoode your doctrine at diuers times are declared before in the aunswere to the 8. Article 2. demande.

13 Or note the name of him that euer first preached any article of our doctrine: and if we note you not by their names, euery one of your Capitaines, and the seuerall errors that they tought and the time, and the yeare when they arose [Page 44]against the former receyued trueth and the Councells in which they were orderly condemned if I, saye this can be done of your side towarde vs, or if we doe it not for im­proofe of your Church and religion, I recant.

I Haue noted in the answere to the 6. article 3. demande, the names of diuers heretikes, that first preached diuers articles of your religion, and further I note vnto you Pe­lagius, and Coelestius, which tought that free will without grace coulde doe somewhat towardes eternall saluation, and that grace was geuen according to merite, which article you teach also with culler of a distinction De congruo & condigno, which is a meere cauill: for God is as much bounde vnto congruitie, as to dignitie or worthinesse, and as he can doe nothing against worthinesse, no more can he doe any thing against congruitie, which is a kinde of Equitie. And whereas you bragge, to note vnto vs euery one of our Capitaines &c. except you note vnto vs the Patriarches, Prophets, Apostles, Euangelistes, and Christ himselfe, you shall neuer be able to performe that you promise, for we teache nothing but the eternall trueth of God, wherefore we refuse not to be coun­ted heretikes, if you can proue, that we holde any one arti­cle of faith, contrarie to the scripture: you may perchaunce note the names of them, that preaching the trueth of our doctrine, against your receyued errors, were accounted of the world for heretikes, but you must proue that their opinions are contrarie to the worde of God, or els all your labour is in vaine: we confesse also, that some articles of our doctrine, were taught by heretikes, as there was neuer no heresie, which had not many thinges common with true Religion, but yet in those poinctes they were no heretikes, neither did they erre. Yea but you will saye, they were condemned for those opinions, as erroneous. I will not dissemble, that which you thinke the greatest matter. Aerius tought, that prayer for the deade was vnprofitable, as witnesseth both Epiphanius, and Augustinus, which they compte for an error, but neither of them both, reproueth it by the scripture. Wherefore, if Aerius had not bene an Arrian, this opinion coulde not haue [Page 45]made him an heretike. Also he tought that fasting dayes are not to be obserued, if he espied the superstition of fasting dayes and reproued it, that was no error at all. But if Aerius was an heretike, for denying prayer for the deade to be pro­fitable, why were the Heracleonites, accused of heresie, be­cause they buried their deade with inuocations Epiph. lib. 1. Tom. 3. Haeres. 36. Augustine, also by authoritie of Philaster chargeth the same Aerius, with abstinence from flesh, if this be an heresie, then be all Papistes heretikes, which compte abstinence from flesh an holy fast. Againe you will bring in Iouiniane, which affirmed that virginitie was no better than mariage, which if it be well vnderstoode, is no error at all: for although virginitie in some cases and respectes, and for some persons is better than mariage: yet is it not simply, that is in all respectes and cases, and for all persons better than matrimonie. And if he tought further that such as coulde not conteine, though they had vowed Virginitie, shoulde neuerthelesse be maried, this was the doctrine of S. Paule: It is better to marry than to burne. And Epiphanius was of the same iudgement, although he compte it an offence to marrie after their vowe, yet he sayeth: It is better to marry then to burne. Melius est itaque vnum peccatum ha­bere, & non plura, &c. It is better to haue one offence, ra­ther then many. It is better for him that is fallen from his course, openly to take a wife according to the lawe, and to repent longe time that vowe of his virginitie, and so a­gaine be brought into the Church, as one that hath done a­misse, as one that is fallen and broken, and hauing neede to be bound: rather then to be wounded daily, with priuy darts of that wickednes, which y ^e deuill putteth into him. So know­eth the Church to preach, these are the medicines of hea­ling. Ep. lib. 2. Haer. 61. this medicine the popish church wil not acknowledge, but will separate them from their wiues, as they did in Queene Maries times. S. Ieronym also, who was a most bitter enemy vnto Iouinian, plainly affirmeth, that ra­ther then they which haue professed virginitie, shoulde liue incontinently, they ought to marrie. Sanctum Virginum propo­fitum & coelestis angelorúmque familiae gloriam, quarundam non [Page 46]bene se agentium nomen infamat. Quibus aperte dicendum est, vt aut nubant, si se non possunt continere, aut contineant, si nolunt nu­bere. Epi. ad Demetriadem. That is: The name of certeine vir­gines, which behaue them selues not well, doth blemish the holy purpose of virginitie, and glory of the heauenly and an­gelike family. To whom must be plainly sayd that either they should marry, if they can not conteyne, or else conteyne if they will not marry. Note well this saying of S. Ieronym, the great aduancer of virginitie, and dispraiser of mariage. More­ouer if Iouinian taught that fasting, abstinence from certeyne meates, and other bodily exercise of them selues profit litle, his doctrine agreeth with S. Paul. 1. Tim. 4. but if he taught (as he is charged) that such thinges profited nothing at all, we agree not with him in that opinion. Last of all Vigilantius, shall be brought in, who wrote against inuocation of Saincts, superstition of reliques, and other ceremonies, him Ieronym reproueth or rather rayleth on him: for his reasons are no­thing worth that he hath against him, therefore howsoeuer Ieronym estemed him in his rage, if he had none other opi­nions contrary to the truth: we doubt not to acknowledge Vigilantius (as many godly and learned Bishops of his tyme did) for a true preacher and reprehender of that superstition whereunto Ieronym was to much addict, although he doe somewhat qualifie the matter. If any man thinke his reasons to be effectuall, let him marke this one, that he vseth, and thereby iudge the rest, he sayth of the Martyrs: Sequuntur ag­num, &c. They follow the lambe whether soeuer he goeth. If the lambe be euery where, therfore they which are with the lambe, are to be thought to be euery where. Beside this euill consequence, consider what perilous assertions these be: that the lambe is euery where, & that y ^e martyrs are euery where, this is to destroy the humanitie of Christ, and to giue diuini­tie vnto the Martyrs: for Christ concerning his humanitie, according to which, he is called a Lambe, is not euery where, but in one place alone, as S. Augustine sayth Ep. ad Dardanum 57. Secundum hanc formam non est putandus vbi (que) diffusus, that is: According to this forme it is not to be thought, that he is diffused euery where. Againe no creature is euery where, in [Page 47]more places than one, at one time. Wherefore to say that the soules of Martyrs, be euery where, is to deny them to be cre­atures and so make them gods. I doubt not but S. Ieronym if he had quietly considered these absurdities, would haue re­uoked them as erroneous and hereticall: but while he rather followed affection, then iudgement, you may see how he was deceaued. Thus seeing we haue noted to you the names of diuerse heretikes, which first preached certeyne articles of your doctrine, and you are not able to name any, which prea­ched any article of our doctrine, but the same was consonant to the Scripture. If you were as ready to performe, as you are to promise, you should recant.

14 And for that purpose because the gouernment of the By­shop of Rome is most misliked of them, and yet most noto­riously knowne by euery historie, let them name the Pope that first brake of the course of his forefathers beleefe, & regiment in any article of fayth or necessary Christian v­sage, and I recant.

I Haue named before Victor, which was the first that went about to vsurpe authoritie ouer other Churches. Also I haue named Boniface, the third, which was the first that chalenged to be vniuersall bishop: For Gregorie the great sayeth: Nemo meorum decessorum hoc prophano vocabulo vti voluit, That is: None of my predecessors woulde vse this prophane worde. The same Gregorie, as Hulderichus, bishop of Auspourge doth testifie, was y ^e first that compelled priests to liue vnmaried, which afterwarde when he saw the incon­uenience, he reuoked. Thus hauing named diuers Popes that first brake the course of their fathers faith, and regiment &c. and more coulde rehearse but for auoyding prolixitie, I cha­lenge your promise that you must recant.

1 Item I aske what kinde and order of seruice, or common prayer, what waye of ministring of the sacraments your [Page 46] [...] [Page 47] [...] [Page 48]Church had: before Papistry (as you call it) did pre­uaile in the worlde?

IVstinus Martyr, in his second Apollogie to the Emperour, declareth plainely what order of seruice and ministration of sacramentes our Church had before Papistry preuay­led. On the daye called Sonday (sayth he) there is a mee­ting together of all them that dwell in the Citie or in the countrie, and the monumentes of the Apostles, or the wri­tinges of the Prophetes are reade vntill it be thought suffi­cient, when the reader hath made an ende, he that is our ouerseer (or cheefe minister) maketh a sermon of admoni­tion and exhortation to follow those good thinges that are reade. After this we all stande vp together and make our prayers, and as we haue saide before, when our prayers are ended, there is brought forth bread and wine & water, and the cheefe minister, doth likewise with all his might yelde pray­ers and thankesgeuing, and the people aunswereth Amen. Then is made distribution to euery one and receyuing of those thinges for which thankes was geuen, and to them that be absent, it is sent by the deacons. Such as are riche and willing doe geue almes what they will, &c. By this one autho­ritie, it may be seene though other might be brought, what order of seruice and ministration of sacraments our Church vsed before Papistry gat the vpper hande.

2 Shew one booke of Communion or what els you list that was in English, or lacked prayer for the departed, or inuocation of Sainctes in heauen, or that wanted oblation, or sacrifice, or that charged a number to receyue, or els that the preest coulde not consecrate nor say Masse, himselfe, or shew any note in a Communion booke, that the people shoulde take the sacrament for plaine breade, or that they should geue no honor to it, shew this booke or any leafe or line of this booke.

IT may trouble a wise man to aunswere all the questions that a foole can propounde: you requier to see a booke of Communion in English, or that lacked &c. When it is [Page 49]confessed, that the English nation receiued their religion first from Rome, at such time as Religion there was verie corrupt, what marueill is it, if we can not shewe you such a Communion booke as you require, but we can easily shew you out of the scripture, the the Communion ought to be ministred in the vulgare tongue, that prayer for the deade and to the deade ought not to be vsed, that the sacrament ought not to be turned into a sacrifice, that there ought to be a communiō of many receauers and not a priuate masse, that the substance of the bread is not changed, that the ele­mentes of the sacrament are not to be honored: these I say we can proue out of the worde of God, the Catholike wri­ters of the olde Church. And though perchaunce, it wilbe harde to finde a communion booke in English, yet haue I founde you a canon of the Laterane Councell, that it ought to haue bene translated into English; yet are there founde diuers monumentes of Antiquitie, as Prayers, Psalmes, and Homilies, &c. in the olde English or Saxons tongue, in which the reall presence, transubstantiation, and other poinctes of Popish doctrine are plainly confuted. There may be shewed you also Bybles both the olde Testament and New in the English tongue of diuers translations, in olde written hande. Also great bookes of English homilies inueighing directly against the Pope and all Popish doctrine in olde English written hande, with diuers other small treatises and pam­phlets of like matters, if these woulde do you any good, you might haue the sight of them, when you please.

3 Or any Church or Congregation that euer had any Authen­ticall seruice but ours, and I recant.

THe Church of the Brytannes before Augustine came in, with Romish seruice, had they not trow you Au­thenticall seruice? which continued in the faith of Christ euen from the Apostles time. The Grecians also & Orientall churches, haue they not vnto this day, their Authenticall seruice? which is not yours? If you can not de­ny this, you should recant.

1 Furthermore I requier to know what shoulde be the cause that the Protestants themselues, doe receiue all Byshops, Priestes, Deacons, and other officers spirituall of all sortes of our Catholike church, and doe admit them as men law­fully and sufficiently ordered, both to preach, minister sa­craments, and to exercise spirituall iurisdiction no lesse, but rather more, than if they were of their owne ordering, where we of the Catholike church, doe not acknowledge any man of their calling to be any whit more fitte for any spirituall function than other lay men.

ALthough all godly men wishe more seueritie of dis­cipline to be vsed, in receyuing them that come out of heresies to serue in the Church, than is common­ly practised in England: yet you are highlie decey­ued, if you thinke we esteeme your offices of Bishops, priests, deacōs, any better than the state of lay men, but farre worse: for we iudge them to be nothing els but Antichristianitie, heresie, and blasphemie. And therefore we receiue none of them to minister in our church, except they forsweare your religion: And so their admission is not an allowing of your ordering, but a new calling vnto the ministerie.

2 Therefore vpon this presumption that they doe not onely admit our ministring of sacraments, but also the lawfull ordering of the ministers for the same, if they can shew me why our church hauing by their owne consent and ap­prouing lawfull priestes and bishops should not be the true church, I recant.

YOu presume to much as I saide before to thinke that we receiue your orderinge to be lawfull or your mi­nistring of sacraments to be pure. And if you gather, that we admitte your ministration of sacraments be­cause we doe not rebaptize them that were baptized by you, [Page 51]we maye likewise gather that you admit our ministration of sacraments, because you doe not rebaptize them that are baptized of vs, nor marrie againe those that are married in our Church: wheras you compt mariage to be a sacrament, so that our accepting of your doings doth no more allow your church, than your accepting of our doinges, doth allow our Church. And as touching the sacrament of Baptisme, be­cause you reteyne the Institution, in baptizing in the name of the Father, the Sonne, and the holy Ghost: and in asmuch as the sacraments take not their effect of the minister, but of God, we receiue it: as of other heretikes which likewise re­teine the Institution. Wherefore there is no cause why you shoulde thinke we allow yours to be the true Church there­by: So that there is good cause why you shoulde recant.

1 Also I demande what furniture or commodity in seruing God the Christianity of any age, or any part of Christen­dome had euer by your Congregations?

THe seruice of God hath small neede of furniture in outwarde thinges: for God being a spirite, is not wor­shipped with outward pompe but with spirituall and inwarde reuerence. And as for other furniture that is necessary, was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Constantine and his successors, that were of our Church, be­fore the reuelatiō of Antichrist. Notwithstāding the Church was in better case, before such furniture was graunted, than it was since. Therefore it is a small reason to chalenge the Church of Christ by outwarde furniture.

2 VVhat Churches did you builde for your assemblies and seruice?

OVr assemblies were kept in secret places, long time after Christes Ascension, in most cuntries, that were subiect to the Romane empire. Wherefore the buil­ding [Page 52]of materiall churches proueth nothing at all the buil­ders to be members of the mystical Church, that is the body of Christ. Howbeit in such realmes and cuntries where the faith of Christ, was receiued by publike authoritie, as in this lande of Brytaine, there were churches builded as our Chro­nicles declare. And when Constantinus had geuen peace to the Church: he also builded Oratories and great Synagoges called Basilicas, for our assemblies and seruice.

3 VVhat Bishoprickes for the gouernment of the Church did you finde?

AS the church continued longe without materiall churches, so also without large possessions, for the lyuing of bishops, yet in Brytish Church our histo­ries make mention that the possessions and places of the Pagane Flamines, and Archiflamines were conuerted to the vse of Ecclesiastical bishops and archbishops, so soon as Lucius, the king receiued the faith. Also the same histories do testifie, that when Augustine came into Britayn, there were still 7. bishops and one archbishop among the Britaines. And in the Romane Empier Constantinus, and other Christian Emperors appointed great possessions for the mainteyning of the ministers of the Church.

4 VVhat Vniuersities, Schooles, or Colledges, did you euer erect?

THe Church of God hath alwayes had schooles, or Vniuersities for the mainteinance of godly learning. For the first Colledges of monkes in solitary places, were nothing els, but Colledges of studentes, that were after, as occasion serued, taken to serue in the Church, as appereth by Chrysostome in his booke De Sacerdotio, where he sheweth y ^t Basilius, who was a Monke with him, was taken by violence and made a minister of the church, as he him selfe was afterwarde. Also in the bishops house was a col­ledge of studentes: and our histories testifie, that at Bangor, in Wales was a great Vniuersitie of learned men. Also of late [Page 53]dayes, you may heare that diuerse Vniuersities, Scholes, and Colleges are erected by Protestants, in Germanie, and other contries that haue receiued the gospel: As at Wittemberge, Geneua, Zuriche, Conigsperge in Prussia, &c.

5 Name one Church, not builded in all fashions, as well for the making of the chancells, the forme of the aultars, the vse of the chalices, the signification of the vestiments, as also for the speciall intent of the builders thereof. Name one of them in the whole Church of Christ, either erected for your Faith, Church, & seruice, or not prepared, in all sorts for catholike practises: Proue vnto me that any of all those thinges were euer prouided for any other seruice and Religion then ours, or that they be monuments of a­ny other Fayth and Church then the common Catholike, and I recant.

HEre are many wordes to litle purpose. What if it were graunted that all churches that now remaine were builded by Papistes, and for popish vses, what had you wonne thereby. The same chalenge might the Idolaters haue made to the Apostles: Shew vs a temple in all the worlde that was not builded by Idolaters, and to mainteyne Idolatrie? Certeinly they could shew none when the Temple of Ierusalem was destroyed. But for all your bragges, we are able to shewe that such Churches as were builded by true Christians were not builded to such ende as yours are: for they were all builded in the honour of God, and the most of yours in the honour of creatures: for wher­as you haue one Church in the honour of Christ, you haue neare a thousand in the honour of Sainctes: For Basilius ma­gnus in his 141. epistle proueth y ^e holy Ghost to be God be­cause he hath a Temple. For Omne Templum Dei Templum est. Euery temple is the temple of God. Also Didymus, in his booke De spiritu sancto, which S. Ieronym translateth, vseth the same reason and to the same purpose. S. Augustine in the same matter is very plentifull: as in his booke De vera Religione cap. 55, speaking of the Sainctes he sayth: Quare honoramus e­os [Page 54]charitate non seruitute, nec eis templa construimus, &c. Wher­fore we honour them with loue and not with seruice, neither doe we build temples vnto them: for they wil not be so ho­nored of vs because they know that we our selues when we are good, are the temples of the highest. In this saying beside his iudgement for building of temples, note that he will not haue Sainctes to be honored with seruice, which he calleth seruitus, and is the same that dulia is, contrary to the Papistes which will worship them with seruice called dulia, or seruitus. Also in his 174 epistle to Pascentius, he sayth, the holy Ghost could not haue our bodies to be tēples except he were God, And in his Enchiridion ad Laurentium, cap. 56. he sayth: howe should he not be God which hath a temple? Also in the 8. booke cap. 27. De ciuitate Dei. Nec tamen nos ijsdem martyribus templa, &c. he sayeth: Christians builde no temples vnto Martyrs which were to make them gods. And in the 22, booke cap. 10. De ciuitate Dei. Nos autem Martyribus nostris non templa sicut dijs, sed memorias sicut hominibus mortuis, quorum apud Deum vi­uunt spiritus fabricamus. Nec ibi erigimus altaria in quibus sacri­ficemus martyribus, sed vni Deo & martyrum & nostro sacrifici­um immolamus: ad quod sacrificium sicut homines Dei, qui mun­dum in eius confessione vicerunt, suo loco & ordine nominantur, non tamen à sacerdote qui sacrificat inuocantur, Deo quippe non i­psis sacrificat quamuis in memoria sacrificet eorum, quia Dei sa­cerdos est non illorum. Ipsum verò sacrificium corpus est Christi quod non offertur ipsis quia hoc sunt & ipsi. that is: We truely do not build temples to our martyrs as vnto gods, but memories as vnto dead men whose soules liue with God. Neither doe we there set vp aultars in which we should sacrifice vnto the martyrs, but to God onely which is God both of the martyrs and of vs, doe we offer sacrifice: at which sacrifice they are named in their place and order, as men of God which haue ouercome the world in his confession: yet are they not cal­led vpon by the Priest that doth sacrifice, for he offereth sa­crifice to God and not to them although he doe sacrifice in their memorie, because he is the Priest of God and not of them, and the sacrifice is the body of Christ which is not of­fered vnto them because they them selues are the same. Here [Page 55]also beside building of churches, note that no sacrifice ought to be offered to Martyrs, but prayer is a sacrifice, therefore it ought to be offered onely to God. Secondly, that Martyrs were not called vpon in tyme of the sacrifice but onely na­med for remembrance. Thirdly, that Altares were not buil­ded in the honor of Martyrs or other Sainctes as they be in Popish churches: as our Ladies altar. S. Peters altar. S. Lau­rences altar &c. Fourthly, that the bodie of Christ, which he sayeth was the sacrifice that was offered, was not the naturall body of Christ but his mysticall bodie, because he sayeth the Martyrs and it are all one, whereby it is manifest, that he meaneth the sacrifice of thankes giuing offered to God for the redemption of his church by the death of Christ. Wher­fore if this one place were well wayed, it will interpret and aunswere all places of the auncient doctors, where mention is made of sacrificing the body of Christ at the time of the communion. But to returne to building of churches the same Augustine, contra Maximinum Arrianum. Lib. Titul. 11. hath these wordes: Nunc si templum alicui sancto angelo ex­cellentissimo de lignis & lapidibus faceremus, anathematizaremur a veritate Christi, & ab Ecclesia Dei, quoniam creaturae exhibe­remus eam seruitutem quae vni tantum debetur Deo? Si ergo sa­crilegi essemus faciendo templum cuicun (que) creaturae, quomodo non est Deus verus cui non templum facimus, sed nos ipsi templum su­mus? that is: If we shoulde builde a temple of wodde and stones to any holy and most excellent Angel, shoulde we not be accursed from the Trueth of Christ and from the Church of God, because we should shew that seruice vnto a creature which is due onely vnto God? Therefore if we shoulde be sacrileges by making a temple to any creature, how is he not true God to whome we doe not make a temple, but we our selues are a temple. If this be true, how be not the Papistes accursed from the Trueth of Christ, and from the Church of God which builde and vpholde churches to Angells, as S. Michaels, S. Gabriels, &c? So that to builde churches as Papistes doe, is church robbing or sacrilege. Furthermore whereas you will vs to name one church whose chancell is not builded in all fashions to serue poperie. First it is mani­fest [Page 56]that the first Churches which were builded for Chri­stians had not the same fashion of chancels and other partes that most churches haue in Englande, for that purpose reade the Panegyricall oration made before Paulinus byshop of Tyrus. Euseb. lib. 10. cap. 4. In which is described the fashion of that church builded in that citie farre vnlike the moste parte of churches at this day in all partes, and specially in the chācel which was in the middest of that church, a place com­passed in with grates or wodden latesses called Cancelli, wher­of this worde chancel is deriued, and the aultar stoode in the middest of it wherof some similitude remaineth yet in olde Cathedrall churches. Contrariwise your chancells in most churches be at the Eastende and the aulter hard at the wall, there was also but one alter in that church, but you in euery church must haue many, it is certaine also in their church the Ministers and Deacons stoode rounde about the table or aulter, but so they can not about your aultars except some of them stande on the toppe of the wall or in the windowe. Moreouer if you marke the most parte of olde churches in Englande you shall plainely see, that the chancells are but additions builded sence the churches, of likelihoode by the parsons that disdained to haue their place in the middest of the people as the olde manner was. Also you may see some churches builded rounde: as at London the Temple, and an other is at Cambridge of y ^e same fashiō. And some churches haue the steple at the Est ende, very vnhandsomely for pla­cing of the roode lofte. Againe many churches haue crosse Isles in which the people can not see the chancell, nor the high aultar, which argueth that there was no vse of such chancells when they were builded: For such churches as are latelie erected haue the chancell and church all of one buil­ding, and are made of such fashion that men maye see the highe aultar in euery parte of them: Beside this, in the O­rientall church, as their ceremonies are diuers from yours, so no doubt the fashion of their temples differeth from yours. As for chalices, the church in the beginning was cōtent with wodden cuppes, and then came Zepherinus and brought in the vse of glasses. Acacius Amidenus is commended for selling [Page 57]the golden and siluer vessells of the church, to redeme cap­tiues. Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 21. S. Ambrose also Offic. lib. 2. cap. 8. sayth the church hath golde, not to kepe it but to be bestowed for necessarie vses, for which it is lawfull to breake, melt, and sel, euen the holyest vessells of all. But of your church it is true that one said of olde time: ye had wodden chalices, and gol­den priestes but now you haue golden chalices, and wodden priestes: your vestimentes are of as good stuffe as your cha­lices. The olde church knew none such, but as your owne Authors write: when they wente to celebrate they changed the affection of their minde rather than the garmentes of their body: as Antoninus witnesseth of Fulgentius. Howbeit we are content that your church by her gorgeous garments as well as by other thinges shoulde declare it selfe to be that woman which is described to be clothed in purple, golde, perles, and such like ornamentes Apoc. 17. Finally wheras you will vs to name one church that for the speciall intent of the builders, was not prepared in all sortes for Popish practises: Although I could name many, yet for examples sake, I name Pantheon, a church in Rome, prepared by the speciall and onely intent of the builders for Cybelle, the great mother of the gods and for all false gods of the heathen, which now is called the church of Mary and Alhalowes. Then this church with many other in Rome, and other places, being monu­ments of the faith and religion of the Paganes and not of yours, except yours and theirs be all one, as they are very like, you are bounde by your promise to recant.

1 Againe name any one company of men in the Christen world that in all articles of Faith, be in one meaning and belefe.

IT is an easie matter to name diuers companies agreeing in one meaning & beliefe: as the church of the Grecians, the church of the Aethiopians, the church of the Chal­deans, Moscouites, &c. But especially the whole company [Page 58]of Protestantes in Europe doe agree in all necessary articles of true faith, by which we are iustified.

2 Or in thinges where they doubt, be contented to submit their seuerall meaninge to the iudgement of their Superiours.

THe Greeke church in doubtes will be ruled by the Patriarch of Constantinople, and so will the rest of the Orientall churches by their cheefe Patriarches and bishops. And the Protestants in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiours, so farre as their superiors are ruled by Gods his worde.

3 And to that communion and companie wherof they be, name any companie of men agreeing and thus humbly affected in Christes Religion, sauing the blessed fellowship and members of the Catholike communion, and I recant.

TO the communion and company of the Grecians, I name the Moscouites and Russians agreeing in Reli­gion, and so humbly affected, and these are not of the fellowship, that you call the Catholike commu­nion: Among the Protestants, to the church of Saxonie, I name the church of Dennemarcke, or to the church of Hel­uetia, the church of France, or to the church of England the church of Scotlande, but so, that none of these allow any consent or submission, but to the Truth, which must be tried onely by God his worde. And seeing none of these are of the Popish communiō, if your promise be any thing worth, you must recant.

Furthermore name any one man that is confessed on both sides by the iudgement of the world, to be holy and learned, & a member of the true Church, in what age soeuer you list sence Christes time, and proue him to haue bene in all ar­ticles of Faith of the Protestants meaninge.

SEeing you geue so large scope, I will name S. Paule, who I thinke is cōfessed on both sides to be holy and learned, and a member of the true Church, whome I can proue by his writinges, that in all articles of faith, he taught the same, which we beleeue. And for triall of this, because it woulde requier a whole volume, if I shoulde proue euery particular article, wherein we dissent from you Papistes: If you will name an article, wherein we agree not with S. Paule, If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaninge thereof, I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein.

1 I aske of them whether the Lutherans, Zuinglians, Illirians, Caluenistes, Confessionistes, Swenkefeldians, Anabaptistes and such like, be all of one Church?

BEcause you would make simple men beleue, that there be so many diuerse sectes of Protestantes, as you haue giuen them names, I will first discusse these sectes, and afterwarde aunswere your question. Lutherans, you meane them that follow Luthers opinion of the Sacrament. Zuinglians, follow Caluines iudgement of the same. Confessi­onistes, them that exhibited their confession at Auspurge, which were both the Lutherans and Zuinglians, so these 3. names may be contracted into two: Lutherans and Zuingli­ans. As for Illyrians, if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus, they be Lutherans, in opinion of the Sacrament, and differ onely in ceremonies, which can not diuide them from the faith. Caluine, and they that be of his iudgement, agree plainly with Zuinglius, so that of fiue names, there remaine but two sortes differing in opinion, whereunto you ioyne the Swenkefeldi­ans and Anabaptistes. Now to your question, these be not all of one Church, for y ^e Swenkefeldians & Anabaptists be dete­stable heretiks, but y ^e Lutherans & Zuingliās (as it pleaseth you to cal thē) are of one true church, although they differ in one opinion, cōcerning y ^e Sacramēt, for although the one affirme a real presence, y ^e other deny it, yet they both cōsent in this, that y ^e body of Christ, is receiued spiritually, not corporally, with the hart, and not with the mouth. Wherfore, this dissen­tion is not so great (though there be error on the one side) but that they may be both of the Church of Christ, as well as S. Cyprian, the Martyr, and all the Bishops of Africa, and a [Page 62]great many of Asia, differing with Stephanus, bishop of Rome, and the rest of his opinion in rebaptizing such as were bapti­zed by heretiks.

2 And if either they can proue vnto me, that these, being of such diuersitie in faith and religion make one Church.

WE haue alwaies abhorred the heresies of the A­nabaptistes, Libertines, Swenkefeldians, Daui­dians, Seruitians, and all such. But that Luther & Zuinglius, may be both of one Church, differing onely in one opinion of the Sacrament, is declared before.

3 Or that each of their sects may giue saluation to their folow­ers, being so disagreable, one with an other in high points of our Religion.

SAluation is the gift of God, and not in the power of a­ny company, or sect of men: but this we affirme, that out of that Church, whereof we count Luther, and Zuin­glius, notwithstanding their diuerse opinions (which is but in one matter of the Sacrament) to be members, there is no saluation.

4 Or that I should beleue all these rather then the Catholike Church, or one of these more then another, all making such a bold chalenge of the truth and Gospell.

NO man requireth you to beleue all these, but the true Catholike Church onely. Neither doe we re­quire you to beleue any one company of men, more then an other: but to beleue the trueth before fal­shood. Now, which of them hath the truth, that they all brag of, you must search in the word of truth, desiring the spirite of truth that you may vnderstand and beleue the truth, and so without doubt, you shall come to the knowledge of the truth, and of the Church of God, which is the piller and stay of truth.

5 Let the Protestants of all these kindes put their heades toge­ther, and shew me a reason of these thinges, and with all, let them among them selues agree, to what sorte of these sectes they woulde haue me, and I will recant.

SVch is your impudencie in this matter, as in all other, that you woulde make men beleue that the Anaba­ptistes, Swenkefeldians, Libertins, and other abhomi­nable heretikes, be Protestantes: But it is well that you can make none but fooles thinke so: as for the Protestantes, they neede take no great deliberation to aunswere your de­mandes but you had more neede to laye your heades toge­ther to reconcile the Thomistes, Albertistes, Ockamistes, Scotistes, Reales, and Nominalls, which be all sectes of Pa­pistes, and especially your Canonistes, and diuines, about the articles of your religion, that is: whether the Pope be aboue the Councell, or the Councel aboue the Pope. Whether the Pope may erre and not the Councell, or whether the Coun­cell maye erre and not the Pope. These two: the Popes de­termination and the Councells determination, being the rules of trueth in your religion and not agreed vpon: how can any trueth be certeine in your Church? At for Luther, and Zuinglius, they agree vpon one rule of trueth, that is the worde of God, and differ onely for the applying or laying of this rule, & yet but in one matter & that not the greatest. But you Papists, some holding of the Pope, and some of the Councell, as rules of truth, can haue no ground nor certain­ty thereof. Therefore if you woulde haue me, or any man, to be of your belefe. First determine how I shal know when I am in a right beleefe: one sayeth, if the councell alloweth it, an other sayeth if the Pope alloweth, what shall I doe, when one of these is against an other? yea when one Pope is a­gainst an other, and one councell against an other, shall I thinke that trueth changeth so often as they change. More­ouer when one Pope graunteth, that the councell is aboue the Pope and that the Pope maye erre. Likewise one coun­cell graunteth, that the Pope is aboue the councell and that [Page 64]the councell may erre, as it hath bene within the 200. yeares, the councells of Constance and Basill, determined that the councell was aboue the Pope and that the Pope maye erre. Contrariwise, the councell of Ferraria, and Florence, deter­mined that the Pope was aboue the councell and that the councell might erre. Martinus 5. the Pope chosen by the councell of Constance, was of the same iudgement that the councell: But Eugenius 4. that gathered the councell of Fer­raria, and Florence against the councell of Basill, was of the contrarie iudgement. Nowe I woulde saye he were a wittie fellow, that coulde reconcile this geare together. For, if he be a Canonist that holdeth this opinion: that the Pope can not erre, whē the Pope him self graunteth that he may erre, which waye shall he turne him selfe? For, if this proposition be true: the Pope can not erre, then this is true also, that the Pope may erre: for if he can not erre he can not erre in saying so: And if the Pope erred in saying, he coulde erre where he can not erre, then this proposition is false, the Pope can not erre, so one proposition shalbe both true and false, which is impossible. Likewise if he holde that hilde that the councell can not erre, and the councell it selfe confesseth it that it may erre. Gentle maister N. reconcile me these together, which concerne a case that hath bene in practise and still is, in the Papistrie, and maye here trouble a mans conscience that woulde beleue your church, and if he haue any wit, restraine him for euer comming into your church: If you can not vn­tie this knot nor winde your selfe out of this maze, vnlesse you will be still obstinate, it were wisedome for you to recant.

I demande whether they were euer of the true Catholike church, which either tooke to them selues newe names of religion according to the calling of any secte maister, or liked not so well the name of Catholike or Christian as of their se­uerall teachers, as to be called of Arius, Arians, or of Caluine, Caluinistes, or of Luther, Lutheranes, or Pro­testants &c. if any man therefore can proue vnto me that [Page 65]men which haue chosen to themselues to declare their di­uersitie of faith, from the common knowen Catholike church such newe names, shoulde be of the Catholike church, I recant.

I Aunswere that they which can not be content with the name of Christians, but chose vnto them selues newe names after the calling of their secte maisters: as Arrians, Pelagians; Franciscanes, Dominicanes, Benedictines, Gil­bertines, Augustinians, Scotistes, Thomistes, Albertistes, &c. are none of the Catholike church: But the true Christians which desier most of all to be so called, and compting it a most honorable name without chosing any other name, be of the Catholike church, although in reproch, they be cal­led of you Caluinistes, and Lutherans. As for the name of Protestants, came first of them that made protestatiō against the decree of Spires in Germanie, and from that time hath bene attributed to the professors of the Gospell: which name they doe not so much delight in, as you doe in the name of Papistes. Therefore, if nothing els do let you but the name, there is no cause why you shoulde not recant.

Againe, if these, which by the common calling and iudgement of Christian people, be named and commonly taken for heretikes, haue not in all ages proued them selues in the ende to be heretikes in deede, notwithstanding their cra­king of Gods worde, and therefore that the Protestants being so taken and called, proue not so in deede, I recant.

THose that by true Christians, haue bene called and counted for heretikes, haue proued so in deede, and therefore the Papistes, being called and counted he­retikes of true Christians, without doubt, are here­tikes in deede. But it hath not bene alwayes true, that they, which of the people commonly called Christians, were cal­led and taken for heretikes, proued so in deede. For the true [Page 66]Christians of the Arrian people, that were called Christian people, were called and taken for heretikes, and in reproch, were called Homousians, and Athanasians, yet they proued and were in deede, true Christians and no heretikes. So the true Christians at this day, being of the Papistes, which after a sorte, are named Christians: called heretikes, and in re­proch Protestants, and Caluinistes, in that their faith agreeth with the worde of God, proue them selues in deede, to be true Christians, & no heretikes. Therefore you haue bound your selfe to recant.

1 Likewise, if any man can proue vnto me, that either those be not true Christians, which by the consent of nations, and by olde prescription of so manye yeares as be sith their conuersion, be and euer hath bene called Catholikes.

YOu your selues, will not accompt the Grecians for true Christians, and yet by consent of nations, and prescription of as many yeares as you can prescribe, they be, and euer haue bene called Catholikes, if you say: they are not called by you, I aunswere: no more are you so called by thē. And sence the time that you departed from them, as great a portion of the worlde, and as many nations, haue called them Catholikes, as you are able to shewe on your side. Therfore either you must compte them true Chri­stians, or els you must graunt that they, which haue ben long called Catholikes, are not alwayes true Christians.

2 Or that those can be any true members, or children of the Catholike church, which do mislike and mistrust so farre-forth these holy names, as wel of Church, as Catholike that they haue turned thē into Congregations, and Gospellers, and Protestants, and such like.

HE is a foolish sophister, that reasoneth from names to things, as you doe most vainely and childishly: we mislike the names of Church, & Catholike, because [Page 67]we do sometimes vse these names: Congregation, and Gos­pellers or Protestantes, and therefore be no true members of the Catholike church: we neither mislike nor mistrust those names as you sclaunder vs, neither doe we boast and trust onely in these names, without the thinges them selues, as you doe, and as your forefathers the wicked Iewes, crying: the Temple of the Lorde, the Temple of the Lorde, the Tem­ple of the Lorde: when they had nothing lesse than the Tem­ple of the Lord, but rather a denne of theues: So, you crie, the Catholike church, the Catholike church, the Catholike church, when you haue nothing in deede but the synagoge of Sathan. But because you make so much of these two names, Church, and Catholike, let vs see what great mysteries are conteined in them. This worde, Church, commeth of the Greeke worde Kyriaka, in Latine Dominica, in English, the Lorde his house: for so were they wonte, in olde time to call their temples, or oratories, so that this worde, church, pro­prely signifieth a materiall temple, and can not signifie the fellowship and communion of Christian people, but by a figure. Therefore if we other whiles vse this worde, Con­gregation, which can not denie, but it is the English worde of this Greeke name Ecclesia, that the Scripture vseth, and si­gnifieth without figure y ^e same thing that this word, Church, doth by a figure, you may be ashamed, if you were not impu­dent, to finde any fault with vs for so doinge. Likewise this worde, Catholike, commeth of the Greeke worde, and signi­fieth Vniuersall, or ouer all, which worde the common peo­ple doth not vnderstande. Therefore we expounde it plain­ly and saye: that the Catholike Church, is the Congrega­tion of Christ, dispersed ouer all the worlde. What reasona­ble man can reprehende this doinge, and not rather your folly, which thinke it inoughe, if the people can prate like parates: Catholike, Catholike, and vnderstande not what Catholike meaneth. Thus, as we doe not refuse these wordes: Catholike, and Church, because they are com­monly receiued, so doe we interprete them, by Vniuersall, and Congregation, because they are not else, commonly vnderstanded.

3 If therefore any thing can proue our true Church better than the honorable name of Catholike, or more condemne them to be out of Christes church thā that not only the Christiā worlde geueth it not to them, but they in a name, do refuse the same them selues, then do I recant.

HEre you bewraye your selfe euidently, and acknow­ledge, that we doe not sclaunder you, when we say: you boast onely of the Catholike church: For you declare plainely, that you haue no better argument then the very name of the Catholike Church, to proue, that you be the Catholike Church: if this be the best argument, all the rest is litle worth. For if the onely name of an honest man, is enough to proue an honest man, many a knaue may proue him selfe an honest man, and if the very name of lear­ning, make a learned man, many an asse may proue him selfe to be a learned man, or if y ^e name of a good Christian, proue a man to be a good Christian, euery hypocrite may proue him selfe a good Christian. Likewise if you haue no grea­ter argument, that can more condemne vs, then that we are not called the Catholike Church, then can you no more con­demne vs, then Christ and his Apostles, that were not one­ly, not called the true Church, but also were called heretikes & deceiuers by the people of the Iewes, which were as right­ly called God his people, as they that giue you the name of Catholike Church, are called the Christian world. It is well you haue nothing better to proue your Church, then the ho­norable name of Catholike, nor any thing more to condēne our Church, then that we are not called Catholike, and yet we haue as many nations, and more then you haue, that by publike authoritie, call vs Catholikes, and you heretikes, al­though you most shamefully sclaunder vs, that we doe refuse the name being offered vnto vs. Seeing you boast so much of the name, Catholike; you shall heare what some of the old writers iudged thereof. Chrysostome, in an homelie, that he writeth of Adam, and Eue, in the later ende hath these words, after he hath tolde them that he hath no neede to repeate [Page 69]such depe questions, as those men haue handled which haue fought against heretikes: Satis sufficere credimus quicquid se­cūdum praedictas regulas Apostolica scripta nos docuerunt, vt pror­sus opinemur Catholicum, quod apparuerit praefixis sententijs esse contrarium, that is, we beleue that what so euer the Apostles haue taught vs according to the foresayd rules is sufficient, in so much that in no wise, we thinke that to be Catholike which shall appeare to be contrary to the sentences before determined. By this you may see that Chrysostome thought it not sufficient to haue the name of Catholike, for he iudged nothing to be Catholike in deede, that was contrary to the rule groūded in the writings of the Apostles. Wherfore how so euer you boast of the honorable name of Catholike, ex­cept you can proue that your opinions agree with the Scrip­ture, they are not Catholike in deede, by Chrysostomes iudge­ment. S. Augustine also, in his booke de Genese ad literam im­perfecto cap. 1. speaking of the Catholike faith, sayth: This is an article thereof, that we should beleue. Constitutam ab eo matrem Ecclesiam quae Catholica dicitur, ex eo quia vniuersaliter perfecta est, & in nullo claudicat & per totum orbem diffusa est. That he hath appoynted a mother Church, which is called Catholike, of this, because it is vniuersally perfect, & halteth in nothing, and is dispersed ouer all the worlde. S. Augustine here, is not content that the Church be onely called Catho­like, but sheweth when it is that, which it is called, and there­fore the popish Church, not being vniuersally perfect, as most Papists will confesse, that many thinges in their church haue neede of reformation, & halting in many thinges from the truth of God his worde, neither yet being dispersed ouer all the world but conteyned in a corner of Europa, is not by S. Augustines rule the Catholike Church. Furthermore S. Au­gustine, cōtra Epistolam Fundamēti cap. 4. against the Manichees plainely declareth, how farre forth, not onely the name of Catholike, but also how farre vniuersally, consent, succession, antiquitie, are to be allowed: Vt ergo hanc omittam sapientiam, &c. Therefore to omitte this wisedom which you do beleue to be in the Catholike Church, there be many other things which may hold me most righteously in her bosome. The cō ­sent [Page 70]of people and nations holdeth me, the authoritie be­gun with miracles, nourished with hope, encreased with cha­ritie, confirmed by antiquitie, doth hold me. The succession of Priestes from the very seate of Peter the Apostle, vnto whom our Lord after his resurrection, committed his sheepe to be fedde euen vnto this present bishopricke, doth hold me. Last of all that very name of Catholike doth hold me, which name, not without a cause, this Church alone hath so obtey­ned, among so many heresies, that wheras all heretiks would be called Catholikes, yet when a stranger shall aske: where men meete at the Catholike Church, none of the heretikes dare shew him, either their principall temple or house. All this, you will say maketh exceeding much for vs: yea, but heare that which followeth: Apud vos autem, vbi nihil horum est quod me inuitet ac teneat, sola personat veritatis pollicitatio: quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur, vt in dubium venire non possit: proponenda est omnibus illis rebus, quibus in Catholica te­neor, that is: But among you where there is none of these thinges, that may prouoke or holde me, there soundeth the onely promise of truth, which if it be shewed so manifest that it can not come in doubt, is to be preferred before all those thinges, by which I am holden in a Catholike Church. By this you may plainly see, that though consent, antiquitie, suc­cession, and the name of Catholike, be good confirmation, when they are ioyned with the truth, yet when a truth is se­uered from them, it is more to be regarded then they all: & it is truth that maketh Catholike, to be estemed, and not Ca­tholike, that giueth authoritie to truth: Wherefore, seeing it were better to proue your Church, to be Catholike, then to boast, that it is so called, & to disproue our Church so to be, then to say: it is not so called: The best way for you, is to re­cant.

1 Moreouer, I aske of the Protestants: whether in that time, in which they holde the true church to haue bene hidden or lost: the people that learned this article of their Creede [Page 71](I beleue the Catholike church) was bounde to goe from that church which they sawe, and taught them both the article, and all other thinges touching their faith and by which they were Christened, and receyned all other sacra­ments, and commodities of saluation, whether they were bounde, I say, to beleue this vnknowen and close Congre­gation, which they coulde neuer come vnto, nor by which they euer receiued, or coulde receiue any benefit, and so forsake that church by whom and in whom, they receiued both their faith and sacraments: Shew me therefore that the Christian men of these dayes, were charged to be­leeue any other church than that, which taught them the article of the church, and baptized them, and I recant.

THis demande, is like a drunken mans dreame, hauing neither heade nor foote: whether they shoulde be­leue the church was lost: whether they shoulde be­leue the church that was vnknowen to them, &c. But if your demande haue any sense in it: This is my aunswere. The church was neuer lost, but hidden from the eyes of the worlde: Therefore, if the people that where taught that ar­ticle: To beleue the Catholike church, and were baptized to your church, vnderstood that this church, was not the Ca­tholike church, which was so commonly called, but that God had a secret Congregation, which was in deed, the true Catholike church, they were bound to forsake your church, and to beleue the secret Congregation: for if a man had ben baptized of the Arrians and being brought vp by them, had learned that article, to beleue the Catholike church, which the Arrians would expound to be them selues, if afterward, by God his helpe, this man vnderstood, that the church of the Arrians, was not the catholike church, as he was taught it was, but that Athanasius, and a few other, that were bani­shed and persecuted, were the true Catholike church: he was bounde to leaue the Arrians, commonly called the church, and to ioyne him selfe with the secret, banished, hidde, and persecuted church of Christ. But as for your Po­pish church, in that time of blindenesse and error taught not [Page 72]the people that article, nor any other but kept them backe from the knowledge, as well of that article, as of all other thinges that were necessary to their saluation: for you taught them nothing els, but to pronounce, and that full ilfauoredly, like popingeys, certeine latine wordes, which they vnder­stoode no more than stockes or stones. So that the people had no instruction of you, no not of the name of God, in many places but that they receiued by vncertaine talke of their parentes, as it were from hande to hande: for how many thousand parishes are there in Englande, that within these 60. yeares woulde declare, that they neuer hearde ser­mon in their life. As for that they hearde of their seruice, they learned as much of it, as of the ringing of their belles, which was a sounde without vnderstanding. Therefore you may be ashamed to speake of teaching the people, their be­lefe and all thinges necessary for saluation, when you haue counted it heresie to learne their creede in English, or to reade the scripture in English, in which is conteined all thing necessary to be knowen for euerlasting saluation. Finally be­cause you requier me to shew you that the Christian people of those dayes, were bounde to beleue any other: church than that, which taught them the article of the church and baptised them, I trow I will so shew it you, that for both your eares, you dare not deny it: how saye you? The Christian people of the Greeke church, which were taught by the Greeke church, that article of the church, and by the same Greeke church were baptised, whether ought they to beleue any other church but the Greeke church? If you say no: then you acknowledge the Greeke church to be the true church which denieth the Popes authoritie, if you saye yea: Then you are welcome home, you recant.

1 I aske also whether any man for the space of that 1000. yeres of blindenes could be saued, out of that secrete and small Church, which they say was the true Church, if they aun­swer [Page 73]me, there might be some saued, with our Sacraments, and in the Communion or fellowship of the Papistes out of the Protestants Church, then there was a way to heauen, out of Gods Church: if they say that none could be saued by our Sacraments out of their close Church, then all men yong and old perished for those yeares without any hope of mercy, because they could not vnite them selues, and be incorporate to that company and Congregation, whereof they neuer neither hearde, nor coulde by any meanes sur­mise. Therefore let any man aliue proue vnto me that ei­ther any man could out of the true Church be saued.

NO man aliue that knoweth what the true Church meaneth, will say, that any man can be saued out of the true Church, for he that is not a member of the body of Christ, cā by no meanes receiue any benefit of Christ to his saluation. Therefore how long so euer the true Church were hidden, whether it were a thousand yeres (as you beare men in hand that we should say) or two thou­sand yeares it is not materiall, this is certeyne, that out of this Church, none could be saued, and though you count it smal, as in deede in respect of the world, it is but a small flocke, and fewe are elected, and fewe finde the streit gate of life. Luke 12. Matth. 7. & 20. yet is the number of it greater, then mans eye commonly can discerne. As when Elias thought that he only had bene left alone of the true Church: God answered, that he had yet reserued 7000. that neuer bowed their knee to Ba­al. 1. Reg. 19. And as Esay declareth when the people shoulde be almost all destroyed, yet a remnant should be saued, which though it seemed to be small, yet it should ouerflow and fill all the world with righteousnes, Esa. 10. and though it shal be like a gathering of grapes when vintage is ended, or the sha­king of an oliue tree when men thinke they haue left nothing vppon it, yet there be two or three in the toppe amonge the boughes, & foure or fiue vnder the leaues in the highest brā ­ches. Esay. 17. & 24.

2 Or that any other company could be knowne for the true and onely Church but our common Catholike societie.

THe true Catholike Church was neuer so secrete or hidden but it might be knowne of all those that had eyes to see it, whose hartes were lightened with the spirite of God and were enstructed by the worde of God, that they might vnderstande the trueth, and knowe the spouse of Christ from the common strompet of Antichrist.

3 Or that all men were damned for a thousand yeares togither because they coulde not finde, nor surmise of any other Church, then that which practiseth all holy functions, which Christ left for our saluation in the world, and I re­cant.

WE take not vpon vs to medle with God his iudg­ments, whom he condemneth, & for what cau­ses, further then the word of God teacheth vs, namely that as many as haue not beleued in the onely sonne of God, are condemned for their vnbeliefe, o­ther secret causes we remit to his secrete counsell and know­ledge. And wheras you say that the popish church practiseth all holy functions that Christ left for the saluation of his Church, it is most false: for first you doe not preach remissi­on of sinnes in the bloode of Christ onely, for either you preach not all, or else you preach remission of sinnes in any thing, rather then the onely merites of Christ, as in mens owne merites, workes of supererogation, pardons, masses, beggarly ceremonies, as holy water, auriculer confession &c. Secondly, you minister not the Sacraments purely according to Christ his institution, but either corrupt and defile them with mans traditiōs, as you do Baptisme, or else cleane chaūge the vse of them, as in the Lordes Supper, which you make a Sacrifice, an idoll, a Priestes breakfast, and defraude the peo­ple of the one halfe of the sacrament, as though you were wi­ser then he, that instituted it in both kindes. Thirdly, disci­pline you haue conuerted into tyranny and couetousnes, re­teyning nothing but the name of it alone: Wherefore seeing you exercise no holy function after Christ his institution, but cleane contrary to the same, and doe obstinately defend the [Page 75]filthy whore of babylon against the cleare light of the Go­spell, & the true spouse of Christ, ye shall be damned except you recant.

1 Againe shew me any Church, or imagin if you can by good reason, a church of Christ in which there is no gathering together for preaching, no spirite of prophesying, no rodde of correction, no order of ministring nor any spirituall functiō that can be named, proue me that there should be a true Church for a thousand yeares together, and lacked all these thinges.

YOu would faine haue a great nombre of Articles and therefore you bring in one matter often times in di­uers phrase of words, that it might seeme a new mat­ter when it hath bene vttered twise or thrise before: as this Article is conteined before in the 5.8. and 9. Articles, where you shall finde it more largely aunswered. But let vs see, what this strange demande requireth, we must shew him a church, or els imagine by good reason a church of Christ without preaching, ministring, and discipline for a thousand yeares together. Although we will not graunt that it hath so longe continued without these exercises, yet because you geue vs leaue to imagine, we can imagine that it may as well continue without publike preaching, ministring, and discipline for a thousand yeares, as it did for three hundred yeares be­fore Constantine. But you will say there was preaching mini­string, and correcting, though it were not knowen to the ty­rantes and persecutors, so say I vnto you, for that thousand veres there was gathering together for preaching, ministring, and correcting, though the Pope and his persecuting Pre­lates coulde not alwayes see it, nor come to the knowledge of it: for if they had once intelligence of it they smarted for it, as is knowen by the stories of the Waldenses, Bohemians, &c. Furthermore continuall exercise of preaching, ministring of sacramentes, and executing of discipline, are notes of a [Page 76]quiet and peaceable Congregation, not of a dispersed, perse­cuted, and disquieted Church. How often doth S. Cyprian cō ­plaine, that the brethren could not be gathered togither for executing of discipline, whereby it is certeyne, that likewise they coulde not be gathered togither for other exercises. Therefore the intermission of these exercises in a persecuted Church, doth not proue the same to be no true Church: But where so euer there be two or three gathered togither in the name of Christ, there is he in the middest of them. But whereas you require the spirite of prophesie (except you meane the gift of interpreting the Scriptures) the Church in the most quiet and flourishing state, may want the spirite of shewing things to come, as well as the giftes of tongues, hea­ling, &c.

2 And withall, that there was an other vntrue Church which for those many dayes onely practised to the saluation of many, all these offices: and geue me a good reason why this Church, that alwayes hath had these thinges should be a false Church, and the other that wanted them, to be a true Church, and I recant.

WE vtterly denye, that beside the true Church, there was an vntrue church, that practised those offices to the saluation of any man: for once a­gaine I tell you, you haue neither the preaching of the word, nor ministring of Sacraments, nor execution of discipline, according to the truth of God his institution, but either altogither changed, or else greatly corrupted. And whereas you say, that the popish church onely hath practised these offices: I aske you againe whether the Greeke Church be a parte of your Church, and whether the Papistes in Eng­land be a part of your Church. The Grecians you will say, are not: but the English Papistes are. Then haue I founde out by your owne iudgement, the Church of the Grecians, practising these offices being an vntrue church, & the church of y ^e English Papistes not practising the same, yet graunted of you to be a true Church. Therfore you are bound to recant.

1 Moreouer let any man shew how that Church can be the pil­ler of truth, which durst not for a thousand yeares clayme either preaching of Gods word or ministring of Sacramēts or shew her selfe against falshood or superstition.

AS the number of your articles doth draw to an ende, so your matter is farre spent, and therefore to make vppe your number, you must repete one thing twise. This demaund is conteined before in the 11. and 12. articles, where also it is fully aunswered. Notwithstanding, seeing it commeth againe it shal be briefly aunswered in this place. The Church is not called the piller of truth, because it should stand alwayes in the sight of the world: for then the defection, which S. Paule speaketh of, could not haue come, neither should the Church flie into the wildernes, as was declared to S. Iohn: But it is called the piller of truth, because that where so euer the Church is, either visible or inuisible, there is the truth. So though the Church were hidde a cer­teyne time in the wildernes, yet there was trueth with the Church. You seeme to be a good Arithmetrician: for no number soundeth in your mouth but a thousand. Neuerthe­lesse how long so euer it was, the piller of truth decayed not, And as God gaue his spirite, diuers times was bold to cha­lenge preaching and ministring of the Sacraments, yea, and so boldly, that it cost many of the chalengers their liues. As Berengarius, Bruno, Marsilus de Pandua, Ioannes de Gaudano, Io­annes VVickleffe, VValdo, Ioannes Hus, Ieronymus de Praga, &c. Thus it is manifest that the Church hath diuers tymes chalenged her right, and withstood falshood.

2 Let any man shew that all giftes of the spirite, and functions of the holy Ghost haue bene taken from her, a thousand yeares togither, and onely practised to the peoples vse by an aduouterous Church.

THere is no man can shew this: for it is a false lye, that all giftes of the spirite, & function of the holy Ghost were either taken from the true Church, or giuen to the adulterous church. And this hath bene shewed more then once or twise before.

3 Let it be declared, how the gates of hell haue not preuailed, or Christes promise and warrant for her, not bene voyd & frustrate, if a bastard Church exercising idolatry, as they say, hath spoyled the true Church of all holy actions, and the whole gouernment, and the whole name of Christiani­tie, almost euer since Christes tyme.

THe Deuill hath bent all his force and ordinance, he hath armed all the power of darkenesse, he stirred vp ryrantes, heretikes, Popes, Saracenes, and Turkes to destroye the Church, the dragon, that olde serpent Satanas, the Deuill, stoode before the woman to deuoure her childe, he persecuted her into the wildernesse, he cast out of his mouthe, a great riuer to cary her awaie, he made warre with the rest of her seede that keepe the commaunde­mentes of God. Apoc. 12. but yet in despight of the deuill, the Pope, and all her enemies, she is to this day preserued, and shalbe to the worldes end: Therefore the gates of Hell, haue not preuailed against her, nor the promise of Christ hath failed. And whereas you say, that your bastard church hath spoiled her of all holy actions, gouernment, and Christian name, it is a most impudent lye, as it is true, that you sawe a bastard church vsurped her holy name, counterfaicted her holy actions, and turned her gouernment into tyrannie.

4 Let me see therefore howe the onely dearling and spouse of Christ shoulde be neglected of him so long.

SHe hath not bene neglected of him, but felt his con­tinuall aide, he hath geuen her safe deliuerance of her childe, & taken it vp from the crueltie of the Dragon, he hath prouided her a place in the wildernesse, he [Page 79]hath made warre with the Dragon for her sake, and driuen him out of heauen, he hath geuen her Eagles wings to flie into the wildernesse, he hath caused the earth, to swallow vp the water that shoulde haue caried her awaie, he hath geuen the remnant of her seede, Victorie ouer the Dragon. Finally, his mercifull protection and louing care ouer her, hath neuer more notably appeared than that against so many daungers and enemies all this while he hath preserued her, vntill such time as he hath thought good, now to bring her out of her secret place in the wildernesse, into the open sight of the worlde againe.

5 Let the aduersarie shew that the Church shoulde euer by superstition and falshood commit adultery or be deuorced from him.

THe true church, consisting of God his elect, and the liuely members of the bodie of Christ, shall neuer commit such adultery that she shalbe diuorced from him. But the visible church, by Idolatrie and super­stition may separate her selfe from Christ, and be refused of him, as God speaketh by Esay to the church of Ierusalem cap. 1. How is the faithfull Citie become an harlot? It was full of iudgement, and iustice lodged therein, but now they are murtherers. Thy siluer is become drosse, and thy wine is mixed with water. Thy Princes are rebellious and compa­nions of theeues &c. euen so maye he say to the church of Rome: how is that faithfull church become an harlot, true Faith and Religion haue dwelled in her, but now Idolatrie and superstition: thy siluer is turned into drosse, and thy wine is mixed with water, thou hast nothing pure and vncorrup­ted, thy Princes be rebellious Antichristes &c. Thus I haue shewed that the visible church, may become an adulteresse, and be deuorced from Christ.

6 Or that Christ should euer want his spouse in earth.

THis hath bene often aunswered before, Christ hath neuer wanted his spouse in earth, though the blinde world can not alwayes see her, or when they see her, [Page 80]will not acknowledge her to be his spouse, but persecute her, as if she were an adulteresse.

7 Or that he shoulde be a heade either without a bodie.

THese are but one thing in diuers phrases, as he hath neuer wanted his spouse in earth, so hath he neuer bene an heade without a bodie, and seeing these wordes in this sence are relatiues (for Christ is called a heade in respect of the Church which is his body, and the Church is called a bodie, in respect of Christ that is her heade) I aunswere you by a rule of the Logicians: No man knoweth a relatiue, except he know the correlatiue thereof, Therefore, though Christ had a bodie in earth, yet coulde it be knowen of none, but such as knewe Christ the heade of that bodie. Of whome, when the Papistes were ignorant, specially when they appointed an other heade in earth, it is no marueill, if they could not see the bodie of Christ, though he haue neuer bene without it.

8 Or such an vnknowne and small bodie.

THis hath bene answered immediatly before, it suffi­ceth that it be knowne to Christ the head. As he sayeth: My sheepe heare my voyce and I know them. Iohn 10. And to them that be of the members of the same body. As for the rest, it is not necessary that they should alwayes see it, which will neuer acknowledge it. Neither is it so smal, as it is thought of, it is dispersed in many places ouer all the worlde, and yet fewe in comparison of the malignant church, whose number is as the sand of the sea, &c. Apoc. 20.

9 Or that Christes only kingdom should become so cōtemptible.

NOthing else is to be looked for of the worlde, but hatred and contempt, as Christ him selfe sayth: You shall be hated of all men for my names sake. Matth. 10. & S. Paule biddeth vs looke on our calling, not ma­ny [Page 81]wise men, according to the flesh, not many mighty men, & not many noble men: but God hath chosen the foolish thinges of this world to confound the wise, and the weake of this worlde to consounde the stronge. 1. Cor. 1. And what hath the true church to boast in but in the Crosse of Christ. Gal. 6. than the which, nothing is more shamefull, contem­ptible or reprochefull to the wisedome of this worlde: what knowledge or preaching hath the true church but Iesus Christ crucified, which to the Iewes is an offence and to the Greckes foolishnesse, but to them that be called, both Iewes and Greekes it is the power and wisedome of God to euer­lasting saluation 1. Cor. 1. Rom. 1. So that as the church in the sight of God and his Sainctes is most glorious and honora­ble, so in the sight of the worlde it hath alwayes bene most base and contemptible.

10 Or that his spouse in earth shoulde euer lacke the singular prerogatines of Gods spirite, shewe me these thinges, and I recant.

THis also hath ben declared before in the second de­mande of this Article. There be certeine singular prerogatiues, which are not continually with God his Church: as the gift of tongues, the gift of pro­phesie, the gift of healinges &c. but there be other preroga­tiues of God his spirit, that are necessary for the saluation of God his elect, as the gift of vnderstanding, the gift of Faith, the spirit of adoption, &c. and these the spouse of Christ hath neuer wanted. Wherefore if you wilbe partaker of those benefits which are receiued in the church of Christ, you must forsake your Romish religion, and recant.

1 Shew me that the Church, which ought to be a Christian mans staye, in all troubles and tempestes of doctrine might become so hidde or so close that no man coulde finde her.

THe reader must not be offended with me for any te­dious repetition of mine aunsweres, seeing you geue the occasion, by propounding your demandes so often. This demande hath a false principle: that the church ought to be a Christian mans onely staie in all trou­bles and tempestes of doctrine: for when soeuer any such tempestes doe arise, there is as great question and doubt of the Church, as there is controuersie of the doctrine: for as euery heretike chalengeth vnto him selfe the trueth of opi­nions, so also doth he chalenge the possession of the church, so that the church is alwayes in as great question as the do­ctrine. And then is it to be sought out and tried onely by the scriptures, as we haue declared at large in the aunswere to the 4. Article, 2. demande. Secondly whereas you demande: whether she coulde be so hidde or close that no man coulde finde her, because I haue aunswered to this demande sower or fiue times already, I will now aunswere in one worde: Al­though she was hidden and close from the worlde, yet was she knowen to them that were her children.

2 Or so harteles that she coulde succour no man nor instruct any man in his doubt of conscience or distresse of Faith, proue me that there maye be such a decay of Gods spirite, trueth, and Church, and I recant.

THe Church hath neuer bene afraide to do her office towardes her children and true members, in tea­ching, exhorting, comforting, confirming, &c. nei­ther hath the spirite of God failed to leade her into all trueth, and Christ hath bene with her euer more, and shalbe to the worldes end. But that the spirite of God, truth, and the Church of Christ, shoulde departe from the greatest numbre of the worlde, is proued by S. Paule, 2. Thess. 2. and by the Reuelation of S. Iohn. Apoc. 12. Therfore if the spirite of trueth did leade you, you shoulde recant.

1 Shew me againe whether any man of yeares may be saued, except he beleue the Catholike Church?

THere is no man of what age or yeares soeuer he be that can be saued, except he be a member of the Ca­tholike church. But how necessary it is to beleue the Catholike church, it is very doubtfull, as you de­mande, and as the conclusion of this article seemeth to re­quire. If you meane that it is necessary to beleue the Catho­like church, that is to say, that God hath an holy vniuersall Congregation, I graunt it is necessary to beleue. But I vtter­ly deny that y ^e Romish church is that holy Catholike church. But if you meane (as it seemeth) and as the rest of the Pa­pistes doe interprete that article, I beleue the Catholike church, that is: I beleue, what soeuer the church doth allow, to be true: I deny that it is necessary to saluation, that a Christian man should so beleue the Catholike church, both because the church may erre, & also because something may be commonly receiued of the church, which is not materiall to saluation. And that this is a false interpretation of this ar­ticle of our Creede, I beleue the Catholike church, that is: I beleue what so euer she doth set forth or maintaine, to be true, appeareth manifestly by the wordes them selues: For who euer was so ignorant in the Latine tongue, to thinke that Credere Ecclesiam, and Credere Ecclesiae, were all one in signification. In deede if the wordes were: Credo Ecclesiae Ca­tholicae, in the datiue case, this interpretation might take place, but when it is in the accusatiue case, Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam, A boy that woulde conster it otherwise than thus: I beleue that there is a Catholike church, were worthy to haue a doosen stripes for his labour. Moreouer this common distinction of Credere in Deum, that is: to put our trust in God. Credere Deum, that is: to beleue that there is a God, and Cre­dere Deo, that is: to geue credit to God, that he speaketh the trueth, plainely ouerthroweth this foolish and false inter­pretation: For we say not: Credo in Ecclesiam, that is: I put my whole trust in the Church, for that were blasphemie, [Page 84]against God, in whome only we must beleue, neither do we say: Credo Ecclesiae, that is: I geue credit to the Church, as though she shoulde alwaies speake the trueth: But we saye and confesse against all heretikes and scismatikes: Credo Ec­clesiam &c. that is: I beleue, that there is one Holy, Catho­like, and Apostolike church, whereof I am a member &c. Finally, when the articles following, are spoken in one con­text and phrase, it can not be chosen, but that they must haue one kinde of interpretation Communionem Sanctorum, Remissionem peccatorum, Carnis resurrectionem, that is: I beleue the Communion of Sainctes, the forgeuenesse of sinnes, the Resurrection of the body, &c. whereof the interpretation must needes be this: I beleue that there is a Communion of Sainctes, that there is forgiuenesse of sinnes, &c. Euen so I beleue, that there is a Catholike Church, which is an article of our crede, necessary to be beleued of euery Christian man, but to beleue all and euery thing that the Catholike church, by commō consent doth maintaine, is no article of our Faith, and therefore not necessary to saluation.

2 And that is it which hath in the face of all the worlde pra­ctised preaching: the conuersion of nations to the obe­dience of the Gospell: that hath alwaies had the mini­string of sacraments, the hearing of matters in controuer­sie, power Iudiciarie in Ecclesiasticall causes, the orderly succession of Byshops, vniformitie in solemne ceremonies, vnity in faith, that hath in her selfe all holy functions of the spirite, as working of miracles, remission of sinnes, the true sence and interpretation of Gods word that is bewti­fied by the diuersitie of states, commended by Christ in the Gospell, as with Virgines, with Martyrs, with Confessors, and the rest.

BEcause these colewortes haue bene sodden twise or thryse already, they are not worthy to be shewed in se­uerall disher, but euen as they are here mingled all to­gither in an hochpotte. Of these notes that you make proper to the Catholike Church (as it hath bene declared before) some are not alwaies necessary in y ^e catholike church: [Page 85]As open preaching in the face of the world, open ministring of Sacraments and execution of discipline, these are not to be required in a persecuted Church. Some were proper for a time, and then ceased, as working of miracles, and diuers o­ther functions of the spirite. Some are neuer necessary in the Church, as succession of Bishops, vniformitie in ceremonies, &c. But of all these notes, there is not one that is proper to the Church of Rome: for she hath not alwaies practised o­pen preaching, and neuer preached the worde of truth, she hath conuerted but few nations to her Religion, from Genti­litie, and them rather by warre, than by preaching: she neuer had sence she first arose, the ministring of sacraments accor­ding to Christ his institutiō, she hath hard matters in contro­uersie, not for furtherance of Iustice, but for loue of money. Her iudiciarie power, may be dispensed withall for money. She hath had no orderly succession of Bishops, except an hore be an orderly Bishop of the Church of Rome: And except so many schismes as they write of, be orderly successions: she hath not vniformitie in all ceremonies, for diuerse nations, and diuerse Churches in these nations haue diuers ceremo­nies, as Sarum, Yorke, Bangor, &c. in England: she hath not v­nitie in faith: for it is not yet determined, of one of the greatest articles of Popish faith, whether the Pope be aboue the church: she hath no holy functions of God his spirite, but prophane vsages of mens inuentions: she hath no true miracles, but the power of Antichrist in lying signes and wonders. She hath nothing lesse then the true sense of God his worde, which submitteth the same to her owne corrupt and changeable iudgement. She is not bewtified with estates commended in Scripture, as Apostles, Euangelists, Prophets, Pastors and Teachers, but with Popes, Cardinalls, Monkes, Chanons, Fryers, &c. In steede of virgines, she hath filthy strumpets, her Nunnes, or else such foolish virgines as bring no oyle in their lampes: she hath no Martyrs, but obstinate traytors, as Becket, Fisher, More, &c. she hath no confessors of trueth, though she haue ten thousand mainteyners of sal­shood and lyes: Wherfore if these be the notes of y ^e Catho­like Church, y ^e Church of Rome can in no wise be that same.

3 Proue vnto me that this is not the true Church, or that we be not bound to obey this Church and no other in all contro­uersies, and doubtes raysed either by the difficultie of the Scripture, or by the vayne contention & pride of heresie, and I recant.

I Haue proued, euen immediatly before that not one of those notes, which you count to be markes of the true Church, is proper to your Church. And therefore it is not the truth, neither ought it to be obeyed in any thing. And as for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture, or conten­tion of heresie, must be resolued and determined, as it is a­bundantly declared before, onely by the Scriptures: for the hard places of the Scripture must be opened by easie places, and heretikes must be confuted, by the Scriptures: for there is neuer heresie, but there is as great doubt of the Church, as of the matter in question, onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience, which I woulde wish that you would truely embrace and recant.

1 Moreouer let any man proue vnto me, that the true & onely Church of God, may at any time be voyd of God his spi­rite.

THe true and onely Church of Christ, can neuer be voyd of God his spirite, and yet she may erre from the truth, and be deceiued, in some thinges, euen as there is no true Christian man that is voyd of God his spirite, for he that hath not the spirite of Christ, is none of his. Rom. 8. yet may euery true Christian erre, and be decea­ued in some things, according to the saying of the Scripture, euery man is a lyar. Wherefore the whole Church militant consisting of men, which are all lyars, may erre all togither, as euery part thereof, although neither the whole Church nor any true member thereof be voyd of God his spirite.

2 Or falsely interprete any sentence of holy Scripture.

THis gentle offer must needes be taken, I will proue vnto you, that the church of Rome, hath falsely in­terpreted diuers sentences of scripture, and there­fore by that which she hath done, it cannot be doub­ted but that she may do it. S. Augustine was in this error, that he thought Infantes must receiue the sacrament of the body and bloude of Christ, vnder paine of damnation, and was deceiued by false interpretation of this scripture: Except ye eate the fleshe of the Sonne of man and drinke his bloude &c. Ioan. 6. This error and false interpretation, he affirmeth to be common to all the Westerne church, & to Pope Innocent him selfe. Contra duas epist. Pelag. ad Bonifacium lib. 2. cap. 4. & cōtra Iulianum lib. 1. cap. 2. Furthermore the second Coun­cell of Nice, how many textes of scripture doth it falsely in­terprete, which it were to tedious to repete, yet for exam­ples sake I will reherse some of them. God made man to his owne image Gen. 1. therefore we must haue images in the church. No man lighteth a candle and setteth it vnder a bu­shell Math. 5. therefore images must be set vpon the altars. As we haue heard, so we haue seene in the City of our God, Psal. 48. that is: God must not be knowen by onely hearing of his worde, but also by sight of images. If these be not true interpretations I reporte me to you. Beside these, I will bring you a sentence of holy Scripture, not onely falsely interpre­ted in sence, but also falsified in wordes, and concerning not a small matter, but euen one of the cheefe articles of our Faith. It is written in the 10. chapter of the Gospell after S. Iohn the 29. verse [...]. My Father which gaue thē vnto me (speaking of his sheep) is greater than all. This sentence, hath the Councell of La­terane, holden vnder Pope Innocent the 3. where were pre­sent 70. Metropolitanes, 400. Bishops, 12. Abbates, and 800. Priors commentualles in all 1300. Prelats, falsified in wordes, after this maner, Pater quod dedit mihi, maius est omnibus, that is: That which the Father hath geuen me, is greater than all. [Page 88]This sentence they alleage, to proue that God the Father begetting his Sonne from euerlasting, gaue his owne sub­stance vnto him, the wordes be in the 2. Canon. Pater enim ab aeterno filium generando, suam substantiam ei dedit, iuxta quod ipse testatur: Pater quod dedit mihi, maius est omnibus. At dici non potest, quod partem suae substantiae illi dederit, & partem re­tinuerit ipse sibi, cum substantia Patris indiuisibilis sit &c. that is to say: For the Father, begetting his sonne, from euerlasting, gaue him his owne substance, according as he himselfe wit­nesseth: that which the Father gaue me, is greater than all. But it can not be said, that he gaue him part of his substance, and kept parte vnto him selfe, when as the substance of the Father is indiuisible &c. Goe your wayes now and perswade vs, that your church can not interprete any sentence of the scripture, falsely, when the Laterane Councell, which is your represented church hath thus both falsefied, and falsely in­terpreted, this scripture. Perswade men, that they may safely leane to the interpretation of your church, when among a thousand and three hundred Prelates, gathered canonically in a Councell, not one was founde that coulde espie such grosse abusing of the worde of God, but let it passe in a Ca­non, vnder the name of the whole Councell. Perswade men, that in all controuersies, & condemning of errors, they must be ruled by the determination of your Church, When the Fathers of the Laterane Councell, can not confute the error of Ioachim Abbot, concerning the Diuinitie of Christ, but by falsefying and false interpreting of scripture. These few ex­amples of an infinite numbre, I haue set forth, because they are sufficient, both to satisfie your chalenge, and to perswade the simple, that the church of Rome may falsely interprete the scripture, which you woulde beare them in hande were impossible.

3 Or induce any error among the people.

THe true and onely church of God, is so guided by God his spirite and directed by his worde that she can not induce any damnable error to continue. Yet, [Page 89]as it is declared before, she hath no such priuilege graunted, but that she may be deceiued, in some thinges: for her know­ledge is vnperfect, and her prophecying is vnperfect. 1. Cor. 13. And it is true that S. Augustine sayeth: euen the whole church is taught to saye: Forgeue vs our trespasses. And if generall Councells be the church represented (as you Papistes doe teache) S. Augustine plainely affirmeth that they may erre: De Baptismo contra Donatistas, lib. 2. cap. 2. Quis autem nesciat sanctam scripturam Canonicam tam veteris quam noui Testamen­ti &c. And who knoweth not, that the holy Canonicall scri­pture, as well of the olde, as of the newe Testament, is con­teined within her certeine boundes: and that it is so prefer­red, before all later writinges of byshops, that of it, no man may in any wise doubt, or dispute, whether it be true, or whe­ther it be right, what so euer is knowen to be written therin: and that the writings of bishops, which haue bene written, or are now in writinge, maye be reprehended, if they haue gonne astraie, any thing from the trueth, both by the saying that is perhaps more wise, of any man, that is more skilfull in that matter, and by the more graue authoritie and wisedom of other better learned bishops, and also by Councells: and that euen those Councells which are gathered in euery re­gion or prouince, ought to geue: place without all doubt, to the authoritie of the generall Councells, which are gathered out of all the Christian worlde: and that euen the very ge­nerall Councells, may often be amended, the former by the later, when as by any triall of thinges, that is opened, which before was shut, and that is knowen which before was hid­den, without any swelling of wicked pride, without any stub­bernesse of arrogance, without any contention of peuishe enuie: with holy Humility, with Catholike peace, with Chri­stian charity. Thus farre, S. Augustine, which cleerely affir­meth, that generall Councells may often erre, which maye often be amended, but that the authority of God his worde, is to be preferred before the writings of all Doctors, and Decrees of all Councells, and that it onely can not erre. The Councell of Carthage the 3. ca. 23. determined, that all pray­ers at the altar, shoulde be directed onely to the Father, and [Page 90]not to the Sonne, or the holy Ghost, whether this be an er­ror to define that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne, and God the holy Ghost, let euery man iudge. But you will except, that this was a prouinciall Synode, and not a gene­rall Councell. But I aunswere you, it hath the authoritie of a generall Councell, because it was confirmed in the sixt ge­nerall Councell holden at Constantinople in Trullo. And as for the Popish church, that it maye erre, what neede we better proofe than the prayer, which it maketh, after the ending of euery generall Councell, Precamur scilicet vt igno­rantiae parcas & errori indulgeas, that is we praye truely that thou wouldest spare our ignorance & pardō our error. And againe, Et quia conscientia remordente tabescimus, ne aut igno­rantia nos traxerit in errorem, aut praeceps forsitan voluntas im­pulerit a Iustitia declinare, ob hoc te poscimus, te rogamus, vt si quid offensionis in hac Concilij celebritate attraximus, condonare, & remissibile facere digneris. that is: And because we are gre­ued with remorce of conscience, lest either ignorance haue drawen vs into error, or perhaps rash will hath driuen vs to decline from Iustice, therefore we praye thee, we beseech thee, that if we haue drawen vnto vs any offence in the cele­bration of this Councell, thou wouldest vouche safe to par­don, and to make it remissible &c. If it be impossible for the generall Councell to erre, what neede they pray to God to pardon their error, and when their owne conscience con­demneth them and compelleth them to confesse, and that before God, that they may erre, what impudence is it in any man, to contend that they can not erre? Furthermore the second Councell of Nice, determined that Angels, and sou­les of men had bodies, were visible, and circumscriptible, and therefore might be painted, and this it affirmeth to be the iudgement of the Catholike church, Con. Nice. 2. Actione 5. If this be not to induce an error, to make men beleue that Angells and spirites haue bodies visible and circumscripti­ble, there was neuer anye error sence the worlde beganne. Finally, when they say the Pope can not erre, they acknow­ledge that such generall Councells as condemned Popes, for heretikes, did erre, as the sixt generall Councell of Con­stantinople [Page 91]in Trullo, which condemned and accursed Pope Honorius for an heretike, Actione 13. Euen as Pope Leo, the 2. did also, as appeareth in his epistle, to the Emperour Con­stantine. Also the Councell of Constance did erre, which condemned Pope Iohn the 23. for denying the immortality of the soule, and the resurrection of the body. Session. 11. which Councell, Pope Iohn him selfe affirmed to be most holy, and that it coulde not erre. Session. 12. And the Coun­cell of Basile did erre, which deposed Pope Eugenius, the 4. Session. 34. the same Councell being confirmed by Pope Ni­colas the 5. Session. 43. If you say: these two last Councells did not erre, in condemning and deposing these Popes: Then the great generall, and OEcumenicall Councell of Ferra­ria, and Florence, did erre, in disallowing the determination of these Councells. Thus it is manifest that the Romish church, which they them selues confesse, to be represented in a generall Councell, may erre, which hath so often erred. And if it may erre, and be deceiued it selfe, what man is he, that neede to doubt: Whether it maye iuduce any error a­mong the people.

4 Or approue any vnprofitable or hurtefull vsage among Christians.

IF the church had not approued many vnprofitable and hurtefull vsages, among the people in S. Augustines time, what neede had he to complaine, that many of God his cōmaundemēts, were litle regarded, & mans presumptions so highely esteemed, Sed hoc nimis doleo &c. But herewith­all I am to much greued, that many thinges which in God his booke are most holsomly commanded are lesse regar­ded, and all thinges are so full of so many presumptions, that he is more greuousely reproued, which in his vtas hath tou­ched the earth, with his bare foote, that he that hath buried his minde in dronkennesse. Therefore if it be an vnprofita­ble and hurtefull vsage, to preferre mans traditions before God his commaundementes, the Church in S. Augustines time approued an vnprofitable and hurtefull vsage. Further­more, [Page 92]if the Church can not approue an vnprofitable or hurtefall vsage, wherefore are so many ceremonies, as were approved in S. Augustines and S. Ambroses times, abrogated and disanulled, either because they were vnprofitable, or else hurtful. Last of all, what superstitious vsages, doth the church of Rome still approue? euen such as the wiser sort of Papistes are ashamed of.

5 Or that she suffereth any man, damnably abusing her religi­on, without open reprehension thereof, proue any of these thinges, and I recant.

THe true Church of Christ, in such places as she is, suf­fereth no man damnably abusing her Religion, with out open reprehension, as in the dayes of VValdo, VVickleffe, Husse, &c. whereof sufficient mention is made before, but because she is not in all places at all times, many men, yea whole nations, may damnably erre, and not be reprehended of her, As all the Mahometistes, which oc­cupie the greatest part of the world, who doth, or hath al­waies openly reprehended them. And the Romish Church, can well enough abide, y ^e true Religion of Christ, to be dam­nably abused, not onely without reprehension, but also with allowing: For when the Friars, Dominicanes, & Franciscans, had forged a newe Gospell, out of the doctrine of Ioa [...]himus, and the visions of Cyril, which they called the Gospell of the holy Ghost, the Gospell that should endure hereafter, the e­uerlasting Gospell: which diuilish gospell they affirmed to be so much more perfect, then the Gospell of Christ: as the Sunne is more perfect then the Moone, & a kernell of a nut, before the shell: yet did not the Church of Rome, once re­prehend it. So that it was cultiued 55, yeares, and at length set forth to be openly expounded in the Vniuersitie of Paris, Anno Dom. 1255. without open reprehension of any, but such as were counted heretikes for their labour, As Gulielmus de S. Amore, Gerardus Sagurellus, &c. And finally, when the mat­ter was brought before the Pope, Anno Dom. 1256. by Guliel­mus de S. Amore, and other sent from the Vniuersitie of Pa­ris, [Page 93]the Pope and the Cardinalls, tooke order that it shoulde be priuily burned, and not openly reprehended, for shaming their orders. Mathaeus Paris. Whereby it is clearely proued, that the Romish Church hath suffered wicked men, damna­bly to abuse Religion, without open or priuie reprehension for the space of 55. yeares, and at length without open repre­hension, when there was no remedie but it must needes be reprehended, wherefore if there be any grace in you, you will recant.

1 If vnitie in Faith, austeritie of life, sharpe discipline, great penance, much fasting, large almes, godly deuotion, obedi­ence to higher powers, grauitie and constancie in all cases, be not the signes of the true Church.

IF you aske of true Faith, repentance, discipline, &c. these might be signes of the true Church, but if you meane v­nitie in any faith, &c, as it seemeth by your wordes, the Mahometistes and Turkes, are the true Church, for they haue vnitie in their faith, austeritie of life, sharpe discipline, fasting, almes, deuotion, obedience, grauitie, Constance, &c. as much, or rather more then the popish church.

2 Or be not more in our Church then in their Congregation, I recant.

YOu haue not vnitie in true faith: for you knowe not what it meaneth, but are vtter enemies vnto it, and in your owne principles, there is no vnitie, whether the Pope or the Councell be superior, &c. you may, as all hypocrites, pretende austeritie of life, when you are most lux­urious riotors, as the world knoweth: your discipline is not so sharpe, but money wil make it blunt: you haue great penance but no true repentance, you haue much abstinence from meates, which is the doctrine of diuills, but you fast as litle as other men: your almes are large but without faith, and there­fore [Page 92] [...] [Page 93] [...] [Page 94]sinne: your deuotion is blinde, and not godly, but like her mother Ignorance: you are disobedient to Christian Ma­gistrates, submitting your selues to Antichrist: your grauitie and constancie in all cases, is better commended of yourself, then knowne of other men: Wherefore being voyde euen of these, which you make the signes of the true Church, you are none of the true Church, except you recant.

3 But if discorde in religion, licentiousnes in lyuing, contempt of Discipline, reiecting of penance, lothesomnesse of fa­sting, lacke of zeale and deuotion, disobedience to Magi­strates, sacriledge, apostacie, breach of vowes, vnlaw­full lustes, wantonnesse in all life and maners, if these thinges, I say, agree not better to the Protestants, than the Catholikes, or if these be not the plaine signes and fructes of a false church, and doctrine, I recant.

WE acknowledge that in the outward face of our church, be many hypocrites, chargeable with these crimes that you speake of, and we yelde our selues guiltie before God of greuous of­fences, that our life is not aunswerable vnto our doctrine: Neuerthelesse we doubt not, but God for Christ his sake, will haue mercy vpon vs. But if in life and conuersation we be compared with you Papistes, euen the cheefest of your church, as Popes, Cardinalls, Byshoppes, Monkes, &c. We dare approue our life to be honester both before God and men. You shall neuer be able to charge vs with such ryot, whoredome, adulterie, incest, sodomitry, bestiality, mur­ther, poysoning, necromancie, apostasie, blasphemie, &c. as both the worlde seeth to ouerflowe in your Prelates at this daye, and we are able to bring forth of your owne Cronicles and Hystories, to haue ben committed in times past: where­fore, for very shame, leaue of this comparison. We meinteine no stewes, neither of males nor females, we set forth no bookes in commendation of Sodomitry, we exact no tribute of Courtisans, to kepe open bawdrie, we priuiledge no writinges that teache men to committe vylanie, worthy of a [Page 95]thousand deathes. Therefore be not so impudent, to charge vs with these crimes aboue the Papistes, but rather forsake that filthie whore, the mother of all fornication, and recant.

1 Let any Protestant in the worlde, proue vnto me, that their church coulde rightly be called Catholike, which was so particular, that no man aliue coulde name a place where any such church was.

WHy might not our Church, when it was most hidden, be as rightly called Catholike, as the Church of the Apostles, when it was so parti­cular, that it was cōteined in the narrow bondes of Iury: for it is not called Catholike, because it shoulde be euery where, for that it neuer was nor shalbe: But because that where so euer it be, in partes, it is one body of Christ. The Popish church is not in euery parte of the worlde: For Mahomets sect is in the greatest parte. Many cuntries are I­dolaters and the most parte of them that professe the name of Christ, are not in the felowship of the Popish church: And whereas you saye: that no man aliue coulde name the place where it was, you make an impudent lye: For although it were vnknowen, to the Papistes, and enemies thereof, yet was it knowen to the true members therof. It was in Italie, whē Marsilius of Padua, preached: in France, when VValdo prea­ched at Lyons, and there about. In England, when VVickliffe taught: in Bohemia, when Iohn Hus, and Ieronyme of Prage did florishe.

2 Or that it might be called holy, which neuer had Baptisme, or other sacramentes, to sanctifie any of her followers withall.

IT had the spirite of God to sanctifie the true members of it, and it had sacramentes to testifie the same: Also did not the Bohemians baptise: Were not pauperes de Lug­duno [Page 96]baptised? &c. But if you count their Baptisme no Ba­ptisme, why did you not rebaptize in Queene Maries time, all those that were baptized by our Church in King Edwards time?

3 Or that it should be one, which as soone as it grew vp in the world, was diuided into so many sundry sectes.

NOne of vs will graunt you, that our Church began first to grow, when it was last brought to light, and knowledge of the world: for it hath continued e­uen since Christ. But if there arose, or were renew­ed many heresies, with it, that is no new matter, but an olde practise of the deuill. For as soone as the Church of Christ beganne to grow vp after his ascension, euen in the Apostles time, there were many sectes and heresies, As the Iewes that mainteyned the lawe, they that denyed the Resurrection a­mong the Corinthians Hymenaeus and Philetus, Simon Ma­gus, Cerinthus, Ebion, Marcion, Basilides, Valentinus, Carpocrates, &c. So that there were many more heresies, at the first prea­ching of the Gospell, in, and immediatly after, the Apostles time, then at the last restoring of the publike preaching ther­of vnto the worlde in our dayes: And yet the Apostolike Church was one Church, and so is ours at this day one and the same.

4 Or that it might be called Apostolike, which could neuer coūt by orderly sucession from any Apostle, or Apostolike man.

YOu are neuer able to answere the arguments that are brought to proue that Peter was neuer Bishoppe at Rome. And then where is all your braggs of Aposto­like sea, and succession, &c. But be it that Peter was there, except you proue succession of doctrine and faith as wel as succession of men, your successiō is not worth a straw. And our Church, which holdeth all the doctrine of the A­postles, and none other but the doctrine of the Apostles, shall be truely called, and founde, the Apostolike Church, [Page 97]when your with all her succession of Antichristes whore, whoremongers, heretikes, Sodomites, blasphemers, coniu­rers, &c. shabe Apostaticall, rather than Apostolicall.

5 Or the secret, base, contemptible, defaced, and disordered Congregation, was euer of that maiestie, that it might re­quire the obedience of all Nations.

HOw base, and contemptible soeuer it be, in the eyes of the wicked despisers of it: yet did it not only require, but also subdue all nations to the obe­dience of the Faith, so many as were euer subdued, in the dayes of the first Christian Emperors, and before. And sence, when it was most defaced by the tyrannie of Anti­christ, it was of such maiestie, that it both required and ob­teined the obedience of the realme of Bohemia, and in pro­cesse of time, hath obteined the obedience of almost all the nations of Europe. If the churche of Rome reteine the like maiestie, why doth it not now, requier the like obedience of all nations, both Christians and Turkes. you will saye: It requireth, but it can not obteine. Euen so, I aunswere of our Church, it hath alwayes bene worthy to requier: but it hath not pleased God, that it shoulde alwaies obteine.

6 Or that it was euer able to gather generall Councels.

THe foure best generall Councells were gathered by our Church, and the Emperors, that were defenders of the same, and not by the byshops of Rome. Nei­ther were they Presidentes in them, as it is manifest, that other men were Authors of the Canons, or distinctions: As of the Nicene, Alexander Bishop of Constantinople of the Constantinopolitane. Nectarius byshop of the Ephesine. Cyrillus byshop of Alexandria of the Chalcedonense. Ana­tolius of Constantinople &c. and in other generall Coun­cells where the bishop of Rome was president, I aunswere as Iohn Patriarche of Antioche did, in the Councell of Basile, his presidence was: Honoraria ad beneplacitum Concilij eis data: [Page 98]non authoritatiua, nisi ex concessione aut permissione habente vim concessionis aut ex tolerantia, that is: For honor sake graunted to them so long as it shoulde please the Councell, and not of authority but either by graunt or permission being of the force of a graunt or els of sufferance. And I conclude as he doth, the Pope was neuer President either of honor, or of authority, but by the graunt or permission of the Councell. And how is the Popish church able to gather general Coun­cells at this daye? who will come at her calling? Except a few Spaniardes, and a ioly company of buckram bishops of Italie? generall Councells of all the worlde, can neuer be gathered, but either whē there is a Monarchie, or els (which is not to be looked for) that all the Princes of the worlde, will consent together.

7 Or exercise Discipline.

BEcause this demande hath bene aunswered so often before, I will saye the lesse nowe. The free course of discipline, in time of persecution may be hindred: As it was in S. Cyprians time, when the members of the Church be dispersed: but the power of discipline, hath al­wayes remained, and when occasion serued, bene executed: As the Bohemians, excommunicated the Adamites, and the ciuill Magistrates punished them by the sworde.

8 Or that these names, proper by scripture and Doctors of the true Church, coulde be euer chalenged, by any right to their saide Congregation.

AS many of these names as are proper to the Church by scripture, or Doctors agreeing, with scripture, haue bene alwayes iustly chalenged of right to per­teine to our Church and Congregation.

I meane these: