Of Election with consent of the people.

COncerning Election, the wordes of this answerer be these, Pag. 83. I doe thinke verily that in no Church the whole number of the people are permitted to haue a free Election of their Pastor, &c. Pag. 88. Also her Ma­iestie, [Page 17] being the head member of this church, whether she shall be alowed a voice by her highnes proctor, among the people of one parish alone, or in al parishes in the realm, in chosing their minister, & what voice? whether a ne­gatiue, coūtermāding al others or no? or whether her highnes shal haue no suffrage therein at all? Both which, if they be not to the derogation of her highnesse prerogatiue royall, let in­different and wise men iudge. And a little before in the same page: I will on­ly put this great canonist in minde, of the 13. chap. of the counsell of Lao­dicea, which doth forbid these electi­ons by the multitude or people, which, as Origin sayth, is pricked for­warde or caried away, with clamors, fauour or rewarde. And to the same ef­fect, page. 97. Item page 99. he obiec­teth thus. So that by this reckoning, men women and children (for all the faithfull bee interested:) shall haue voyces in election of their Ministers; If any dissent, all must be dashed if we followe that rule. Againe page 100. [Page 18] For his flocke is but an handfull in comparison of hypocrites, and many are called but few are chosen: neither are al true beleeuers always indowed, with such measure of wisedome and discretion, as that they are able to sounde the aptnesse of a man in lear­ning for the ministery: nor yet haue all so profited in true mortification, as that they can weane them-selues from those disordered affections, which cleaue fast to euery one of vs, either more or lesse, so long as we re­maine in this world, and therefore in such cases the mo that do deal in any actiō, the more disorderly & trouble­some for the most part it falleth out to be. To the seconde I say, it contay­neth a promise of such quietnesse and peaceable issues of this populer ele­ction, as if you turne ouer ecclesiasti­call hystories, neuer or seldome hath happened but the clean contrary. And a little after. Now it had beene very requisite that our Authour, for the appointing of these democratical ele­ctions the better vnto vs, should with [Page 19] proofe out of scripture for euery par­ticuler, haue shewed whether Women or children of some reasonable dis­cretion, shoulde haue voyces in the e­lection of their Minister? whether he should be chosen by all, by the grea­ter part, or by the better part? Whe­ther the wiues voyce shoulde bee ac­counted seuerall, or but one with her husbande, or whether shee mght dis­cent from her husband, or the father from the sonne? Whether the Patron not dwelling in the Parish shall haue a voyce, or dwelling there but a single voyce? Whether the greater number of voyces shall bee accounted in re­spect of all the Electors, or onely in respect of him which is to bee cho­sen, hauing more voyces then anye other hathe? Whether all absent, shall bee accounted to discent, or to assent? Whether sicke men or o­ther necessarily imployde that would come and cannot, maye sende the Proctor beeing no Paryshioner, or compromit their voyce to a Parishi­oner? Item Page 94. Discoursing [Page 20] largely about the places of Scripture alleadged to this purpose. He sayth: that course of election mentioned in the Actes, was not vndertaken for sa­tisfying anye expresse commaunde­ment by Christ, but vpon an especiall occasion of the mutiny of the Greeks against the Hebrewes. Againe in that page 94. that of the Actes, speaketh of Deacons onely, and is not read else­where in all poynts to haue been ob­serued, either in chosing of an Apostle Act. 1. of Ministers, Acts. 2. or of Bish. Titus. 1. There also the whole multi­tude made choise without the Apo­stles, who mēt therby to auoid al sus­picion of corrupt dealing. Which two circumstaunces, no man will I hope require, in the chosing eyther of a Bi­shop or a Minister: especially that the Bishop and other of the Cleargie shall bee debarred from any stroke in that action, seeing therein there cannot be the lyke cause of suspicion. Also the Apostle calleth them togeather, and prescribed vnto them what they shoulde doe in that poynt of exter­nall [Page 21] policie, and that according to the present occasion offered, without any prescript worde, but onely by the instinct of Gods spirite. Further, that the Apostles set out the qualitie of the men to be chosen, but tied them to no certayne forme of election to be obserued, neither doe we reade what forme of election they then v­sed. Againe, that the Disciples were to looke out and chose such, as they thought fitte to be trusted with the Church-stocke, but the Apostles re­serued to them-selues the appoyn­ting of them to their office, if they should be founde to be such as were described. Moreouer, that the Dea­cons were appoynted for the fur­ther ease of the Apostles in some part of their function. Lastly, that the dis­ciples presented them to the Apo­stles censures: who by imposition of handes did as it were consecrate and authorize them to the function of Deaconship. Now if by this act our authour mind so hard to curbe vp al churches, as that he will accuse thē to [Page 22] giue a counterbuff to the holy ghost, which in their ordinations doe not agree herewith in all circumstaunces: or that he will tell vs that something extraordinary was here in this action not to bee followed, then must hee shewe by direct Scripture what was ordinary and what was extraordina­ry, and must reconcile other places of Scripture concerning like action, which doe not agree in all poyntes with this. In the first of the Actes, two were presented, one is chosen by lot and no imposition of handes: heere seuen are chosen, the manner not set downe by the multitude, and being presented to the Apostles, they all ap­poynt them and lay their handes on them. In the 14. of Actes, Paule and Barnabas are sayde Chirotonesasthai autois presbuterois, and to haue fasted, but no mention is made of imposi­on of handes: heere all the Apostles did appoynt thē Hous katastesomen. In the first to Titus, he onely is willed to appoint priestes, Hina catasteses presbu­terous, according as Paule prescribed [Page 23] vnto him. Nay, let him shewe vnto me any two refourmed Churches of diuers nations, iumpe in all circum­staunces heereaboutes, or anye one of them which permitteth this ac­tion, (without intermedling of the cheefe Pastours) vnto all the Dis­ciples or multitude of beleeuers in the sayde Church, which yet haue an interest in hauing a good Minister, but as I take it, the cheefe swaye and moderating of such actions, are in all other refourmed Churches in suche men, to whome this trust is especial­ly recommended. And hath not like­wise (for auoyding of sundry incon­ueniences) the whole Churche and Realme of Englande by Parliament (whereunto euery man in the eye of the law is saide to haue consented) re­posed this trust in a fewe chosen men of ecclesiastical functiō? Euen M. Beza him selfe, concerning the place of the Lib. confes. cap. 5. Actes, doth say, There is no cause why hereof anye man shoulde pre­scribe anye speciall rule, but if the conscience be vpright, it will be easie [Page 24] to set downe what is expedient, ac­cording to the circumstaunces of tyme and places. The reply vnto the former words.

Although the aunswerer in this large and tediouse discourse, hath brought no new matter in substance, which hath not alreadie beene sufficiently refelled, so as no new encounter by publike wri­ting (as a supply) hath beene made a­gainst the same, yet shall it not be with­out fruite to the reader: First, to note out his tumultuous and insincere dea­ling, his contrarietie with him selfe, his agreement with the Papistes, and then (hauing particulerly layd [...] open the nakednesse of his seuerall obiections) briefly as before, to set downe the plaine & simple trueth out of the Scripture. His tumultuous and insincere dealing appeareth, in that, pretending to haue greatlye sifted the wrytinges of this controuersie, and to haue exact know­ledge of the orders of reformed Chur­ches in this behalfe, hee is not ashamed in stead of incountringe with the truth, to frame him selfe an vnknowne ad­uersary, [Page 25] that is, in steed of ouerthrowing the consent of people in Church-electi­ons, to make warre against a meere po­puler Election, not gouerned with the fore-direction of the Elders, which hath no ground in the scriptures, and was ne­uer maintained (as him selfe confesseth) but by Anabaptistes: and in steede of manly buckling with the substantiall pointes of Church-election, with the foreleading of the Presbytery, with the due consent of the people, cowardly to betake himself vnto the changeable cir­cumstances of the same; as who should present, the Elders or the people; howe the people shoulde signify their consent by lifting vp their handes, or otherwise by themselues or by proctors, and diuers such other. Which in the particuler an­swere following shall be declared, howe according to the word of God they may vpon diuers circumstances, be diuersly carried. His contrariety to him felfe is apparant by these three partie-coloured assertions. First, that the people did chose without the Apostles. Secondly, they were to choose, but the Apo­stles [Page 26] reserued to themselues the ap­pointing of thē to their office, if they shold be found to be such as were de­scribed. Thirdly, that the people pre­sented them to the Apostles censures. For, that hee sayth, they chose without the Apostles, is directly contrary to that he sayth, they presented them to the Apo­stles Censures, so that their Election was to be disanulled and made none, vn­lesse by the examination of the Apostles they were founde aunswerable to their description. His agreement with the pa­pists, and namely with the Romish Re­mists Testament, doth notably appeare, in that they appoynting, (as he doth) the fift verse of the 1. of Titus, to the consent of the people in the Election of their Minister, they doe more breefly, but as fully and plainly, and with more curtesy to the trueth set downe both his asserti­ons, reasons and auncient Testimonies, in these fewe words following.

And here it seemeth that he did not only consecrate them whom the peo­ple had elected before, but him selfe also made choyse of the persons, no [Page 27] mention being heere made of any o­ther election populer, which though it vvere long vsed in the primitiue Church, yet for diuers causes, and spe­cially for continuall tumults, partiali­ties, and disorders which Saint Au­gustine much complaineth of in his time, was iustly taken away, and other better meanes of their designement appointed. See concil. Laodic. cap. 12. 13. So much the Papists. Again, how he iumpeth with the spirite of these Je­suites (sauing that still they yeelde more to the trueth then he) in saying, That the Apostles shewed the people what to do, without any prescript worde, but onely by the instinct of Gods spirite: may appeare by their words which they vse vpon the like occasion of Peter, in their annotation on the 15. verse of the 1. Chapter of the Actes: Which Peter (saie they) did, not vpon cōmaundement of Christe written, but by suggestion of God his spirit, and by vnderstanding of the Scriptures of the old Testamēt to that purpose. So far the papists: And thus much generallye of his discourse. [Page 28] Now of his particuler obiections, the first is, that he thincketh in no Church the whole number of people to haue free election of their Pastor. If by free elec­tion he meane the due consent of the peo­ple, either he speaketh against his know­ledge, or he knoweth not that he preten­deth, seeing their confessions other their writinges and practize, do (in the know­ledge of all those which know any thing in this matter,) euidently conuince him, as may appeare by the quotations in the Harmonia confes. pag. 43. Sect. 11. Hel. 1. Art. 16 Beza confes. 5 point cap. 35. P. Mart. in 1. Cor. 16 Musc. in title of the Ministers. margent. If he meane, that the people should beare the whole swaye without the gouernment and direction of the Elders, hee misseth the marke whereat hee aymeth. Concerning the Queenes Maiesties prerogatiue royall, which he would gladly oppone against the cōsent of the people in Church-elections: First, he could not be ignorant but that all ac­knowlege that the Christian magistrat as a principal member of y ^e congregatiō where he is, ought to haue an interest in y ^e election answerable to his place, aswel for aduise as consent. Secondly, the su­preme magistrate, according to the high [Page 29] authority which God hath committed vnto him ouer all Churches in his do­minions, both lawfully may & by duety ought, not onely to disanull what-soeuer election the Elders and people haue vn­lawfully made, but also by his ciuil pre­eminence to compell them to make a newe election according to the Worde of God. Which, as it is as much as the sole election by the Byshop, giueth to the Prince, yea or rather more: so if they can shew any further thing due vn­to the Magistrate, all such as with a sincere minde, seeke for the reformation of the Church, are alwayes as readye with all humblenesse to giue it, as they will be willing with singlenesse to shew it. To the place of the Councell of La­odicea and Origin, let this be the aun­swere. The meaning of the Councell, in those words, Non populo concedendum e­lectionem facere, &c. We ought not to giue leaue to the people to make ele­ctiō, is, they shold not bear y ^e whol sway without the gouernment or direction of the Elders, and not to shut out the due consent of the people, as is manifest, by [Page 30] the counselles going afore, as shall here­after appeare, against which, this coun­sell woulde not haue decreed, vnlesse it had repealed the same or shewed some reason, but most of all by Counselles fol­lowing, who haue authorized the consent of the people: and namely, the 4. of Car­thage, which was confirmed in the sixt generall Counsell at Trullum, together with that of Laodicia, which would not haue confirmed contrary decrees. The wordes are these, When he (speaking of the bishop) shal be examined in al these and founde fully instructed, then let him bee ordayned with the consent (Clericorum & laicorum) of the Clearks & lay men. As for that of Origin, it is nothing to the purpose, which hee sayth of the people, except there could be some priuiledge shewed that partly the same, or such like as daungerous infirmities were not to be founde in a Byshop. The next reason maketh as much against the election of Byshops as of the people, see­ing they may bee hypocrites as well as the people, & in all mens iudgement one man is sooner carried with ambition & [Page 31] couetousnesse, then an whole Church of godly Elders, and Christian people vn­to disorder. And if for the contentions & striuings of y ^• people, y ^e church may abro­gate the consent of y ^e people in Ecclesia­stical elections, thē may she by the same authority, disanull Synods and Coun­selles, which as often haue beene full of rage and vprores: and of which Nazi­anzen saith, He neuer sawe good issue, but that thorough merueilous ambition & de­sire of contention, thinges out of order were not remedied but made worse. Epist. 42. ad procopt. Neither for this cause, as the promise of God made to counsels is not lightly to bee regarded, so ought hee not thus prophanely to reiect it when it is brought to vphold y ^t consent of y ^e people, Further, wher as he saith that Churches both of elder & later times, haue for that cause abandoned such elections, it is to be thought he can bring as much for the proofe of it, as hee hath already allead­ged, which is nothing. Whatsoeuer hee can doe, the Doctrine of the aunci­ent Fathers, and the examples of the elder Churches is farre otherwise. [Page 32] For Chrysostome vpon Actes 1. aunswe­ring the Question, why Peter commu­nicated the election with the Disciples, saith, Least the matter should be turned in­to a brawle, and haue fallen to a contenti­on. For the elder Churches he cannot be ignoraunt, how many haue beene trou­bled with such inconueniences, and yet haue not sought such extream remedies; nay, the example of good Constantine the Emperour is notable, who when the citizens of Nicodemia had chosen an Ar­rian, a runnagate and a rayler on the Emperour, he did not take awaye the Churches consent, but by his Letters according to his duety, mooued them to a newe. Theodoret lib. 1. Cap. 19. Againe, if these infirmities of the people bee a good reason to take away their libertye in the Election of their Ministers, then the contrary vertues, which oftentimes haue beene found in them, in staying the rage of the Scribes and Pharisies, Mat 21. 26. Actes 3. 26. in preferring catho­lique persons before Arrians, and in be­ing themselues catholiques when their Byshops haue been heretiques, Zozo. [Page 33] lib. 7. cap, 7. Theodo. lib. 2. cap. 7. is a good reason to maintaine their liberty [...]till. As concerning his questions following, which as they declare rather a mind gi­uen to cauell at that which he cannot by sound reason auoyde, so are they easilye aunswered out of the course and propor­tion of trueth in the Scripture. Wo­men not being in the seate of Magistra­cy are forbidden by the Apostle to speak in such publique assemblies, and exer­cise authority ouer men. Which rule be­ing spoken of y ^• mother, doth also barre children and such as shall bee in greater subiection, vntill by yeares and Christi­an knowledge, they shall by the iudge­ment of the Church, growe vnto the li­berty of Christians in that behalfe: and then if they followe the greater and better part, their sentence ought to pre­uaile. As for the Question of the Pa­tron, seeing it is a constitution not of God but of man, let the wise and skil­full lawyers define, so they do no iuiury to the holie trueth of GOD and his Church. The next Question is vayne and friuolous. For first, by due autho­ritye, [Page 34] diuers be propounded and the Church consent to haue one of them, it must needes bee, that hee which is ap­proued of the Elders and hath most voi­ces, must receiue the charge, seeing that can not be sayde to be done with gene­rall consent (which thing the Scripture giueth to Church-elections) where the fewest, but where the moste directed a­right, do agree. And as for them that be absent, sicke, or imployde, if they haue any thing of waight to signify to the Church, the Church is to harken vnto them by whome soeuer they sende their aduise. And as it is no reason that when eyther sicknesse or theire duetie to the Church, doe withhold them that shoulde abridge that libertie: so if by negli­gence or wilfulnesse, they bee absente after competent warning, the whole Churche is not to depend vppon them, who doe not so much loose as cast a­waye theire interest in the election. Lastly, who seeth not that anye idle brayne may make these and such like demaundes, both against the rules in the Scriptures, and the obseruation in [Page 35] the primitiue Church. Where he sayth, that, in the sixth of the Actes, was not done by anie expresse commaundement of Christe, but vppon the mutinye of the Greekes agaynst the Hebrewes: as it is to bee graunted, that it was an oc­casion why the people did present, so, that was no cause of their free consent, is manifest by the other places, where that is maintained without any parti­culer cause, Actes 1. and Cap. 14. If Actes 6. speake of Deacons onely, yet Actes 1. Actes 14. speake of Apostles and Elders and theire election by the consent of the people. And if the peoples consent is not to be shut out in the Dea­cons, which lesse importeth their liber­tye and saluation, much lesse are they to be debarred in their Pastors and El­ders, vppon whome, as Peter sayth, the flocke dependeth. Where hee sayth the 1. Peter. 9. people chose without the Apostles, it is shewed already, howe his owne wordes checke him, and the trueth is plainly to bee seene in the Texte, that neyther the people without the Apostles direc­ting them, nor the Apostles without the [Page 36] people consenting vnto them, made that Election. As for shutting out of the By­shops and Church-gouernours it is mer­uaile why hee shoulde feare it, vnlesse iealousy which is fearefull where no feare is, hath blinded his eyes. That of the Apostles doing without any expresse worde from Christes commaundement, is aunswered before in that alleadged concerning the Saboth Cap. 1. and is further manifest by the example of the Apostle Paule, who beeing not with the other Apostles, yet followed that rule, Acts 14. That he saith, there is no certaine forme of their Election: hee is refuted by his owne wordes follow­ing, where he sheweth out of the Text, their election to haue beene of this sort, that vppon the instruction of the Apo­stles the people in presenting them, ne­cessarily therewithall gaue their con­sent, as the Apostles did in accepting them to their ordination. As for agree­ment of all Churches in all circumstan­ces of this point, he hath his aunswere before, but that he willeth to be shewed what is ordinary, and what is extraor­dinary. [Page 37] His aunswere is, that the Apo­stles instructed the people, and they con­sented, which is ordinary, as appeareth in that it is kept in all Elections of the Church, Actes 1. Actes 14. and 2. Cor. 9. 19. but that which was extraordina­ry, was the presentation of the people, the special cause whereof him selfe hath declared out of the text. In the rest, it is straunge, that hee requireth reconci­liation where there is no repugnaunce, but all the places ioyne hande in hande together. For y ^e first in y ^e election of the Apostle, it lay in the liberty of y ^e church, onely to choose some. For the Lot bee­ing the voyce of God, was to assigne which of them should bee the Apostle: and this circumstance maketh strong­ly for the trueth which is mayntayned. For, if where God is to strike the prin­cipall stroke, yet the peoples consent is to bee taken as farre as may bee; howe muche more is the authoritye of the whole Church to be sought for, where the Election is onelye to bee done by men as the Apostle speaketh Galat. 1. The obiection of the manner of the [Page 38] election, Actes 6. is aunswered before. As for the number of 7. who is so sim­ple, as not to knowe that the number is to be varied, according to the spreade and greatnesse of the Churches where they are: and the multitude of causes & affayres to be dealt withall? As for no imposition of handes in the first and 14. of the Actes, it is too simple and scarse tollerable in a catechist, seeing such thinges are to be gathered out of other places: otherwise one may thinke there were no praiers in the celebrating of the Communion, Acts 20. because there is no mention of it in that place which yet were very absurd, considering that the order which S. Luke described in the Churche at Hierusalem, prooueth that Actes. 2. 42. they continued in breaking of bread and praier. And if such seely obiections need to bee aunswered, as inforcing diuers formes of elections, then also wee may proue diuersities of Communions, some of the cup and bread together, some of the cup alone, some of breade alone, by Act. 2. Act. 20. 1. Cor. 12. Wher he saith Titus only is willed to appoint priests, [Page 39] belike the Jesuites translation was be­fore him, when he translated Presby­terous; Priestes and that so dazeled his eyes, that hee coulde not consider the wordes following, that he shoulde do as hee had set him an order, which was not to do it without the consent of y ^e church, except Paul would lift vp Titus aboue himselfe & Barnabas, who chose Elders by voices. And if the answerer had bene Actes. 15. ignorant of y ^e vse of y ^e scripture, which of­tentimes giueth y ^• action to y ^e principal directer, which yet belongeth to many more, as Paule in one place saith, Tim. receiued grace by the laying on of his hādes: 2. Tim. 6. (which in 1. Tim. 4. he declareth to haue beene done by y ^e laying on of y ^e handes of the Eldership) yet his skil in Logick should haue shewed him y ^e deceit of this Sophism. Titus appoin­ted Elders, therefore he appoynted thē without the consent of y ^e people. Of this kind are al the reasons following: As: al reformed Churches iumpe not in al cir­cumstaunces, therefore they shut out the consent of the people. In other Chur­ches the Elders of euery congregation [Page 40] haue the chiefe directiō in the electione yet not without the consent of y ^e people, therfore it is fitly according, to their ex­ample ordered, that the Church shoulde once for all, gyue vp their interest into one mans handes, for the continual elec­tion of many Churches. The sentence of Maister Beza doth very fitly require an vpright conscience, to set down what is expedient, according to the circum­stance of time and place. Which if it had beene found in him at this time, and in this matter, he would not haue shut his eies, against the manifest light of words going before, which declare manyfestly that it is a perpetuall and vnchaungea­ble poynt in Church-elections, which neither Church nor magistrate may al­ter, that they be made with the consent of the people. His wordes in that place are these: Then therefore, not in Churches buylded vp, must all thinges be committed vnto the suffrages of the multitude, nei­ther yet are the Pastours to be chosen with­out the consent of the whole Church: But all thinges are so to be moderated of the El­ders and Christian Magistrates, that nei­ther [Page 41] they bring in tyrannie into the Church, (which surely should be done, if they shoulde call any vnto publike function of their owne wil, neglecting the consent of the multitude, neither that the popular state of the Church degenerate into popular rule. Neither are these wordes of Beza, onely suffici­ent to shew his corruption, but the title of the chap. where he taketh this obiec­tion, doth minister sufficient aunswere, seeing it declareth that Beza in all that place, speaketh not of the con­sent of the people, which he made per­petuall in the chap. before, but of the maner how he gaue their voyces, which is but a circumstaunce. And thus much both generally and particularly, for the vnfolding of his vnfit and slender alle­gations. Now followeth a confirmati­tion of the trueth it selfe, which is. It is substantiall & vnchaungeable in church­elections, that they be made by the body of euery Churche, the Elders di­recting the people, and them-selues to giue their free consent. The reasons of which assertion are these. First, what soeuer are the wayes of the Apostles in [Page 42] ordinary Church-gouernement that is thus to be followed, that which they did ordinarily & vnchangeably, is ordinarily & vnchangeably to be done, that which they did vpon circumstances, when those circumstances fall out, as appeareth by these places 1. cor. 4. 17. Which shall put you in remēbrance of my wayes in Christ, as I teach euery where in euery Church. And 1. Cor. 11. 2. I praise you brethren, that you remember me in all thinges, & hold fast the ordināces as I deliuered thē vnto you. And Phi. 4. 9 Which you haue learned & recei­ued, & heard & seene in me, those things do, & the God of peace be with you. 2. Tim. 3. 10. But thou hast step by step attained vnto (or fully known) my doctrine, & course, pur­pose, faith, long-suffering, loue, patience, &c. Tit. 1. 5. Appoint Elders as I haue set thee an order. 1. Tim. 3. 17. These thinges haue I written, that thou maist know how to be­haue thy selfe in the howse of God. Now that these were the vnch hangeable waies of the Apostles in elections, is cleare by the examples which haue been touched before. For in the 1. of the Actes, the A­postles by Peter directing the action, & [Page 43] in the sixt by him or some other (for they could not al direct & speak at once) what soeuer were the variable circumstaun­ces, they kept this inuiolable, that they people woulde giue their consent in the election: And in the 14, chap. such cir­cumstaunces ceasing, they obserued this thing inuiolable Katapolin, Church by Church. Secondly, If it were not y­nough for a temporary charge to haue praise in the Gospell thorowe all the Churches,: but as the Apostle sayth, such a one was also chosen by the con­sent of the Churches, to be a fellow with him-selfe, in carying the liberality of the Churches: then much lesse can it be ynough in a perpetuall charge of such waight vnto the Church, to depend vp­pon the iudgement of one or many with­out the consent of the Church: but y ^e first is true. 2. cor. 8. 19. therefore the second. Thirdly, if in euerye matter of great waight and importaunce, belonging to the whole body of the Church, whether seuerally in one particuler congregati­on, or ioyntly in many, the consent of the people by the whole course of Church­gouernment, [Page 44] in the obseruation of the Apostles was requyred, then the same is to be kept in this action, which concer­neth the particuler Church and com­mon assemblye as much as anye other. Now that the peoples cōsent was so re­quyred, is euident by this induction fol­lowing. So Peter yeeldeth an account to them of the circumcision, of his going into the Gentiles, and satisfieth them before the Church. Acts. 11. 2. 18. The Church sent foorth Barnabas to Antio­chia, ver. 22. The churches of Antiochia, Actes 15. sent Paule and Barnabas to Hierusalem, about the controuersie of Circumcision. And when they came to Hierusalem, they were receiued by the Church, and of the Apostles and Elders vers. 4. And after the Apostles and El­ders had come togeather to looke to that matter, and had discussed the same: then it seemed good to the Apostles and El­ders, with the whole Church, to sende chosen men of their owne companye to Antiochia with Paule and Barnabas: then they wright the decree vnto the churches after this maner: The Apostles, [Page 45] Elders and the brethren. So in excommu­nication their consent is required 1. Cor 5. 4. 7. 12. So in absolution, the Church doth forgiue y ^e offense & ratify their loue towards him who hath offended, 2. Cor. 2. 7. 8. So in calling vppon the Mini­ster to execute his charge, the Apostle woulde not him selfe, but willeth the Churrh to say to Archippus: Take heede to thy ministery which thou hast receiued in the Lorde, that thou fulfill it. Colos. 4. 17. Lastly, seeing in the iudgement of all interpreters, according to the trueth, the Apostle reckoning vp three manner of callings: the first of man, that is, mās or­dinaunce: the seconde by man, that is, from Gods ordinaunce by the meanes of the Church: the third by Jesus Christ that is immediat without the meanes of the Church, doth therby signify that the two latter only belong vnto church-ele­ctions, because that in the Church none must take any honor but he which is cal­led Heb. 4. as was Aaron: it followeth necessari­ly, that their sole-election which by their own confession is the ordinance of man, to be vnlawful; and that which is by the [Page 46] consent of the people, according to the Apostles obseruation (as they them­selues cannot deny) to be the onelye or­dinary full way of calling allowed of God. This point also hath such ma­nifest witnesse of antiquitie, as be­fore all equall Judges, the cause must passe on our side, For Counsels these twoo following shall witnesse, not onely them-selues, but by their mou­thes the Decrees and censures of the Church from time to time. 2. Tom, concil. can. 8. The councell of Paris. Let none be ordayned againste the will of y ^• citizens: but to whom the election of the people, and of the Clearkes with moste full consent, haue requy­red. And before they say of this, it is their decree, that according to the Canons of the decrees it be obser­ued. Orleans. Canon. 10. 11. Let it not be lawfull to get anye Bishopricke by re­wardes, or by other procurement: but by the will of the King, according to the election of the Cleargie, and of the peo­ple. And after: besides this according as the old Canons haue decreed, no Bishop maye [Page 45] bee giuen vnto the people againste their will. Ignatius ad Philadelp. It is meet that you as those which be the Church of God, should choose by voyces your Bishops. Chierot [...] ­nesai. And the Greeke scholiast on the 14. of the Actes saith, it is to bee noted, that the Disciples with fasting and prayers, did make election by voyces. Cyprian, ha­uing labored to prooue that the Church ought not to communicate with their Ministers which had sacrificed to I­dols, because they had power to choose new, sayth: God commaundeth the Priest to be set before the whole Synagogue, that is, doth ordayne and shew that briestly or­dinations ought not to be made, but with Mathetai. Plebe. the conscience of the people assisting, that the people beeinge present, eyther the crimes of the euill shoulde be detected, or the good shoulde be published, and that shoulde be a iust and lawefull ordinati­on, which hath beene examined by the suf­frage and iudgement of all men, which afterwarde according to diuine instituti­ons, is obserued in the Actes of the A­postles, Magiste­ria. &c. Epist. Lib. 1. Cap. 4. So Gregor. Naz. in apologet. Chrisost. lib, 3. [Page 48] Sacerd. So much for election, the church offices follow.

That euery Minister, of diuine seruice in the publique Congregation, ought to be apt to preach.

COncerning this poynt, the wordes of the aunswerer are these. page. 2. And as it seemeth such as Paule pro­poundeth to euery Minister, as a per­fect idaea which is requisite in him: which is, that he bee able to teache sounde doctrine, to comfort, to cor­rect, to instruct, to conuince any er­rour. And page. 3. For the issue ought to haue beene to this effect, whether it be simplie vnlawfull, that one shold be admitted to minister the Sacra­mentes, which is not sufficiently ina­bled Orthotomein, that is, to deuide the Worde of God aright, and is also Rom. 15. 4. 1. Tim. 3. 16. 1. Tim. 3. 26. Tit. 1. 9. Didacticos Kai elegticos, able to teach the truth and conuince errours, and to correct sinne, & to instruct to ver­tue and good life, and to comfort the weake, or else, whether it be expedi­ent [Page 49] that all the parishes in Englande, either not able to susteine such a lear­ned Minister, or for the scarsitye of such so wel qualified, not able to pro­cure one, shoulde be destitute of pub­lique prayer, and administration of Sacramentes, tyll such a Preacher be procured vnto thē or no? And the like page 14. where a little before he hath these wordes. If he reply that the Bi­shop should not then haue made him Minister, I reioyne, that peraduen­ture he was none of his making: it maye be also, that he was fitte for the cure he was appoynted vnto, though not so fitte for some other populous Congregation, or troublesome peo­ple: Lastly, that if none should be as­sumed to the ministry, but with those especiall indowmentes, surely all the learned of all professions in England, if they were in the ministery, woulde scarce be able thus to supply one tēth part of the parishes. Item page 25. Neither are such of them thogh they be no Preachers, to bee accounted dumbe and silent, who in their Chur­ches [Page 50] do exhort, dehort, rebuke, com­fort, and also in some degree instruct their parishioners, as their ability ser­ueth, & occasion is offered. Which I know they may as profitablye doe, as some, who of as meane gyfes but of more audacity then they, dare take vpon them to expound & deuide the Scripture by preaching vppon some text, vnto which they in their whole discourse do come iust as neere as Iar­mans lippes, are sayd to come togea­ther. Page 34. Further, if they haue or­dayned some of mean ability, it hath been in respect of their slender porti­ons of liuing, allotted out in moste places for the finding of Ministers, which places otherwise should be de­stitute wholly, whereby the people wold be in short tyme become as hea­then & Painims, or be as sauage as the wilde Irish, to the great daunger of their soules, and hazard of this state. Againe page 45. But he is angry also with their bare reading and very per­emptorily assureth vs that they shall neuer be instrumentes of the holye [Page 51] Ghoste, to woorke fayth in the hea­rers, but he limiteth it with this word ordinarily, which he seeketh to esta­blishe by that of Sainct Paule: And how shall they heare without a Prea­cher. Truely as it must needes be con­fessed, that the plaine resolution and vnfolding of the Worde in Scrip­ture called Orthotomia, the right cut­ting thereof, and the grauing of the due and fitte allotment in season, which is perfourmed by discreete and pithie preaching, is an ordina­rye and the moste excellent meanes to ingender fayth: So is it a great errour in diuinitye, to thinke that God neuer blesseth the reading or the hearing of his Worde read, but extraordinarily: for then why is it commaunded that the law of God Deut. 6. shoulde be rehearsed continually to our children, that we should talke of the commaundementes in oure houses, &c. That we should meditate therein daye and night, that all the daye long our studie should be in his law, & that we shold search the scrip­tures. [Page 52] Also why was Moses reade in the Synagogues euerye Sabboth day, and they of Thessalonica commen­ded for their reading of Scripture, & conferring it with that they heard? shall we saye that so many thousands, as in late tyme of persecution were conuerted from idolatry, by reading of Scriptures and diuine treatizes, obtayned not fayth by ordinarye meanes? or that without especiall mi­racle, and by extraordinary working, none are saued in this Church of En­gland, where the Minister is no pub­lique Preacher? and is not the decla­ring and publishing the Worde in the Mother tongue, wherein (as Au­gustine sayeth) in those thinges that are playnely set downe, is sufficient for fayth and conuersation, a kinde of declaration and preaching the Lordes will vnto vs. Page 70. Nei­ther in vaine is preaching spoken off at the firste ordering, both to put them in minde what ought to bee their principall indeuour, and to giue vs to know, that meere laye-men be [Page 53] not inabled to this office, so is it not conuenient, that a licence to preach be giuen to anye, but to such as bee­ing in some function Ecclesiasticall, haue addicted them-selues to serue the Church according to their abili­ties in all their functions incident to that calling. And page 63. and the 4. iniunction addeth here-vnto. That if he be lisenced herevnto, he shal preach in his owne person, at the least euerye quarter of a yeare one Ser­mon, for the which ende, the Ordi­naries in most places doe requyre of such as be not fitte to be licensed to preach, that they procure such dutye to be done by an other which is able to perfourme the same, &c. Where he asketh whether the meaning of the Parliament were to haue the Bi­shops Iudge the reading of Ho­milies to bee preaching: it maye bee sayde that reading of Homilies, in a strickt signification can not bee ac­counted preaching, yet they serue to edifying, and are a kinde of publi­shing the Lordes will, euen as well as [Page 54] a Sermon beeing penned, is, and vtte­red foorth to the people. Page 121. Truly, I wish vnfaynedly, that the gifts of Gods spirit were doubled and re­doubled vppon all that function: yea, that all the Lordes people could pro­phesie. Yet can I not without intolle­rable vnthankfulnes to God, & great touch of her Maiesties gratious care, for the instructing of her people, so debase al Ministers abilities which be no Preachers, as to say, they know not either for what they ought to praye, or that the worde of God is the on­ly food to the soul of man: Or shal we say that none knoweth any thing, nor is able to catechise, or to exhort & de­hort in any resonable measure, but he that is a Preacher publikly licēsed, see­ing it is notorious, that euē in the re­formed Art. 8. des ma [...]iages en ta discipline du Fraunce. churches of Frāce, according to which our men, that haue their heades so full of Church-plots, would seeme to haue squired out all their frame; there be certaine Congregati­ons tollerated, where they haue no publike sermons, but praiers and cer­taine [Page 55] exhortations. It hath been the hope of al the godlye minded, that after the cleare light had shined so gloriously, both by zealous preaching and learned writings of many worthy men, to the manifest discouery of the vnlawfulnesse of an vnpreaching Ministery: so that not onely most of sound religion, but also e­uen the very impugners of this, haue af­ter a sort been driuen to an open confes­sion of the same: that no man indued with any true care of religion, or minding to defend a cause worthy of anye account, would once haue aduentured, eyther colourably or plainly, directly or indire­ly, with protestatiō or without to defend, or any way vphold such a base ministery. But seeing it is the righteous iudge­ment of God vpon all our vnrigteous­nesse, but especially vppon their sinne, who haue admitted, tollerated, and de­fended such vnsauory salt, that instead of putting them to their right vse, which Math. 5. our sauiour sayth, is to bee cast on the dung-hill, and to bee troden vnder the feet of men, they do not only not remoue the stincking snuffe out of the candle­sticke, [Page 56] to place the bright-shining can­dle in their roome: but also hauing cast downe a third parte of the starres from Heauen vnto the earth, doe still by pub­lique writing, vnderprop suche crazed and rotted pillers: It shall be expedient before the particuler examining of his seueral allegations, to let the world see, how that, while they are strugling with the light of their owne conscience, the Lorde (as the Apostle sayth) hath made [...]. Tim. 3. 8. 9 their madnesse manifest to all men. For when as they should haue bene mooued with the pitifull bowels of our Sauiour Math. 9. Christe, who had compassion on the peo­ple (though they came to his preaching and had their doctors and teachers of the Lawe, such as they were in euerye Towne and Uilladge) as sheepe scatte­red without a shepheard: they haue made themselues a laughing stocke vnto the prophane, but a pitty and heart-bleeding to the godlye, by their ridiculous aun­sweres, open shiftings, contradictiōs, as­sertions and by such positions as come nearer to the prophane spirite of the Je­suites, then to the holy Doctrine of any [Page 57] old or new writer, of whome this questi­on hath beene handled. For how vnsa­uory is it: For, to decline the sharp stroke of Gods worde, hee is faine to turne the rule of the Apost. 1. Tim. 3. Which by Councels and Fathers, is made an ordi­nary rule for the examination of those which stande to bee admitted into the ministery, into a Platonical Idaea, which should neuer be found in any: And to shift of the plaine forme of their ordination wherein they are willed to receiue au­thority to preach the word, he sayth, that It is not in vain, but to instruct vs (for­sooth) that mere lay-men, are not inha­bled to this office, as though ther were no booke to learne that lesson, vnlesse the Byshop taught it by giuing authority to ignoraunt men to open their mouthes in preachiuge: which after, by a straight charge he is faine to sowe vp. And lastly, (to leaue out other which the wise rea­der maye easilye see) going aboute to prooue reading to bee a kinde of prea­ching, he is dryuen to demaunde, whe­ther declaring of the Worde in the mother tongue, be not a kinde of de­claration. [Page 58] &c. Secondly, what open shifts are these, to couer the shame of thē who ordained ignoraunt Ministers? hee is compelled to aske, What if hee made him not? or that the Parish were little or poore, When in his own conscience he dareth not deny, and all the worlde knoweth, such are dayly made, and as though fewenesse or pouertie deserued a blinde guid, that they might both fal in­to the ditch. Againe, how simple and na­ked was that, where to excuse the colde exhortatious of the ignorant Ministers, he is forced to say, that they are as pro­fitable, as they who through more au­dacity take vpō thē to preach, & come iust as nere the text as Iarmās lips are said to come together; as if one to shew y ^• goodnes of y ^• pestilent feuer should al­ledge y ^• commodities of the plague. Also how is this whole discourse at war with it selfe? for to defend vnpreaching Mini­sters, he challengeth mē to proue it sim­ply vnlawfull, to ordain men ministers of the Worde and Sacramentes, which cannot preach, when in another place, he is driuen to confesse, y ^t they receiue au­thority [Page 59] to preache, to teach thē that they are addicted to the same, as a thing inci­dent to their office. Which is as much to say; Al ministers must receiue authority to preach, as a thing incidēt to their cal­ling, & yet some ministers may be ordai­ned to the ministery of the Word & Sa­craments only, y ^t is, must receiue no au­thority to preache. Nowe, what concord ther is betweene him & the Iesuites, let this comparisō following declare. They say vpon 17. vers. of 1. Tim. cap. 5. Wee may note that all good Byshops and Priestes of those dayes, were not so well able to teach as some others, and yet for the ministery of Sacramentes, and for Wisdome and Go­uernment, were not vnmeete to be Byshops and Pastours. He sayth that they may bee Ministers of the Word & Sacraments, though they cannot preache. They say: Although it be due high commendation in a prelate to be able to teach, as the Apostle be­fore noteth, yet al cā not haue the like grace therein, & it is often recompensed by other singuler giftes no lesse necessary. He saith, y ^• the aptnes to teach, is an high & eminent Idaea of y ^e Apostle, rather declaring what [Page 60] is requisite in a Minister, then what is necessarily required. They say, some times and countries, require more preaching then others. He saith, vnpreaching Mini­sters are fitt for small Congregations, though not for populous and troublesom people. In all which, let the reader mark whether the Jesuits be not one step ne­rer the trueth then he. Now, although this be bee sufficent to bewray the aun­swerers halting: yet because a great muster of faint Souldiers is thought to bee a mighty armye, till being incoun­tered withall, they bee seuerally scatte­red and put to flight: it is necessary to meet euery one of this valiant host, hand to hand. And first, we ouerthrowe his I­daea, which serueth for nothing else, but to set out the holy Cannons of the Apo­stle to the laughter of all prophane men, by these reasons following.

1 Whatsoeuer the Apostle inferreth vpon the worthy worke of a Byshop or Ministers office, as that which must be in him for y ^• necessity of that work, or for the necessary adorning of it, the same cannot be such an Idaea:

[Page 61]2 But the Apostle hauing saide, that hee that desireth a Bishoppes charge, desireth a worthy worke; thereon con­cludeth:

3 Therefore, he must be apt to teach. Wherefore seing he sayth, Dei einai di­dacticon, y ^t is, he must be apt to teach, how dare he say it is onely good and requisit, or an Idaea, which a Minister cannot at­taine vnto? for if he can not be so apt to teach, as is there required; thē it follow­eth, he must not be apt to teach, seeing in y ^e gouernment of y ^• Church, a man must not be y ^• he cannot be, althogh in the per­fection of God his Lawe, which was gi­uen to shew man his sinne, and that man could fulfill the same, yet in the rules of the church-gouerment, it is farre other­wise, which are set downe for a directi­on to the Church in their triall, who are fit to such or such offices. Secondly, if that property of being apt to teache, bee an Idaea, (that is an imagination which cannot be reached vnto) then to be sober, to be Cosmios, that is, comely in attire, to bee no fighter, are so likewise, seeing that is not onely bounde vp by the Apo­stle [Page 62] by the same bond of necessity, but al­so is the onely quality which the Apostle requireth: wherein a man fit for the mi­nistery differeth from anye other good & sounde Christian, or from those which are to be chosen Deacons. Further, see­ing y ^• Apostle requireth, that he must hold fast the faithfull word, which is according to Tit. 1. 7. 9. doctrine, that he may be able to exhort with sound doctrine & conuince the gainsayers, And therein plainly deliuereth, not only wherein they may, but wherein they must be able to doe these thinges, he di­rectly ouerthroweth this mans building in the aire which hee thinketh no man can reach vnto. Lastly,

1 That which holdeth proportion with the proper actions of diuers members of a naturall body, y ^• cannot be accoun­ted an Idaea, seeing nature doth not on­ly tend, but attaineth vnto that:

2 But that proper teaching which is the peculier work of the teacher, and that proper exhorting which is the peculier worke of a Pastor, doe holde that pro­portion as is manifestly set downe by the Apostle. Rom. 12. 4. 7. 8.

[Page 63]3 Therefore muche lesse can this apt­nesse to teache which is common to them both, be reckoned for an Idaea.

Now this thus necessarily concluded being granted, notwithstanding it wold follow therupon, that the issue which he tendereth, is also therwithal established: namely, that it is simplye vnlawfull to admit them to be ministers of y ^• Sacra­mentes which cannot teach: yet to shewe the riches of the truth, it shall be further confirmed by these reasons following.

1 That which is contrary to the whole course of y ^• scripture, both of y ^• old and new Testament, is simply vnlawfull.

2 But to admit the administration of signs to such as are vnfit to administer y ^• doctrin by preaching, is contrary to the whol course of the Scripture.

3 Therefore it is simply vnlawfull.

The 2. part of which reasō, is manifest by this inductiō. Noe y ^e preacher of righ­teousnes had the building of the Ark, to Genes. 6. which our baptism answereth. So Abra ham was y ^• minister of Circūcisiō, being 1. Peter 3 [...] also a prophet of God. So y ^• Jews were baptized vnto Moses, who preched y ^e law. 1. Cor. 10. 1. [Page 64] So the Priestes offred Sacrifices, who were commaunded not to drinck strong drincke, That they might teach the chil­dren Leuit. 10. 11. of Israell all the statutes, which the Lorde had commaunded them by the hande of Moses. So all they which were Mi­nisters of propheticall signes, were also Prophetes. So in the Gospell, the bap­tisme of John, implyed the ministerie of his doctrine. For the text sayth: Those Actes. 19. 5. which heard him were baptized. So the general commission of the Apostles is, Math. 28. Mark. 6. 12. Iohn. 4. 2. 38 to preach and Baptize. And when they were sent to baptize in Judea, they were also sent to preach. So in y ^e ordinary mi­nistry, whatsoeuer Elders went further then ruling onely, were occupied in the Word and doctrine: diuers from which 1. Tim 5. 17, seeing he can shew no worthy example out of the Scripture, the former induc­tion is full. Secondly,

1 It is simply vnlawful, to admit such to be Ministers of the Sacramentes, which the Lord reiecteth from being Ministers of the Sacrifices:

2 But such as are so vnapt to preach, as by that meanes the people lacke [Page 65] knowledge, the Lord reiecteth from y ^• ministery of the sacrifices. Ose. 4. 6.

3 Therefore we ought much more to reiect them from the ministery of the Sacramentes; because the ebbe of knowledge vnder the law, ought to be full Sea vnder the gospell. Thirdly,

1 If the Lorde in the scriptures of the new Testament, hath giuen no com­mandement to the ordinary Ministers of the Word to administer the Sacra­ments, but vnder the commandement of preaching the Worde, then is it vn­lawfull to admit a Minister not apt to teach:

2 But hee is not able to shewe any one place of a commaundement of an ordi­nary ministry of the Sacraments, not comprehended vnder the commaunde­ment of the preaching Ministery:

3 Therefore vnlesse he would bring in­to Gods haruest such an one as he hath not hyred, it is simply vnlawfull to ad­mitte him to administer the Sacra­ments, which cannot preach.

If he obiect these words of Christ, Do this: we answere, that it is not to be [Page 66] referred onely to the deliuery of breade, but to al the actions going afore of prea­ching, blessing, and breaking, &c, and therefore the Apostle sayth, that when we administer the Lordes Supper, we preach Christs death till he come. Last­ly, 1. Corin. 11. seeing by Ephes. 4. verse. 11. all the ordinary offices which serue for the gathering together and the building of the Church, by the publique ministery of diuine seruice, is eyther the office of a Pastor or a Doctor: it followeth that none be admitted to administer the Sa­craments which can not preach, because prophesying (that is preaching) is the worke that is proper and common to them both. Rom. 12. 6. From whence also floweth their seuerall duties of ex­hortation peculier to the Pastour, and of an especial manner of teaching pro­per to the Doctour, Rom. 12. 6. 7. To his demaunde following, Whe­ther so many Churches as cannot ob­taine learned Ministers, should be de­stitute of publique Prayers and ad­ministration of Sacramentes, And to y ^• after, That so they would become in [Page 67] short time as heathen and Painims, or as sauadge as the wilde Irish. And a­gaine, that the French Churches, Tole­rate certain congregations, wher they haue no publike sermons but prayers with certaine exhortations. To these ioyntly we aunswere, the church can fol­low no better direction then the holy A­postles haue deliuered vnto them in this behalfe, who hauing by the preaching of the gospell gathered many churches, did not ordain insufficiēt ministers, because at the first they had not those which were sufficient, but leauing them partly to the ministery of others, where they mighte find it, & partly to the quickning of their faith, by their graue and sober meetings for praier and mutual exhortation, they then returned and ordained them Elders church by church, whē men were grown fit and meet for the same. Act. 14. 21. 22. 23. So in the old Testament, when for y ^• sins of y ^e people, y ^e work of preaching was rare & precious; y ^e prophets of God sent not forth reading & vnlearned Leuites, but rather gathered y ^e people to thē on y ^• saboths & new-moons, to be instructed of [Page 68] them. 2. King. 4. 22. and in this sense and no other, is the constitution of the French Church to be taken, seeing they make no mention of the Sacramentes, but of Prayer and Exhortations, which in another manner may bee done with due caution of priuate persons in priuat assemblies. Which thing, if it were so carried of the Apostles in their times of persecution and troubles, howe much more oughte it to bee among vs in the time of peace: where beside the dayly increase of preaching Ministers, if those already which we haue, may be suffered freely to execute their office, matters may be so ordered (till thorough the bles­sing of God all Churches bee repleni­shed,) that no man neede to goe aboue fiue myle to heare a sermon: and for the administration of the Sacramentes, the Church with the consent of the Godly Magistrates may take such order, (if it shall so please them) that euerye Pa­rish may haue the Sacramentes mini­stred by a preaching Minister, and so they maye bee still edified in the holy fayth, and not as hee grosely and vngod­lye [Page 69] imagineth of the people of God, become more sauadge then Painims and wilde Irish. The next is worthy of no other answere, then is already made. But where hee sayth, They are not to bee counted dumb and silent, who in their Churches doe exhort, dehort, comfort, and in some degree instruct their Parishioners. If he meane those dueties as the Apostle vnderstandeth them, to be peculier to the man of God. 2. Tim. 3: wee graunt he saith true, for so they cannot be seperated from the true resoluinge and opening of the Scrip­tures. But if he meane, as his words im­port by comparing with the rashe dea­ling of suche as take vppon them to preache beeing not inabled thereunto, then must wee needes say, that that voyce which is lowde ynoughe in the house, euen in the mouth of the Miste­res of the family, who must Open her mouth with wisdome, and haue the doctrine of grace in her lippes, Is not lowde y­nough for the Pastors of Gods church, who must lift vp their voyce alowde to shewe Israell their sinnes, and Gods [Page 70] people their transgressions: and that the riches of the Worde, with wise­dome to admonish and exhort one ano­ther, Collos. 3. 16 which the Apostle maketh com­mon to all grounded Christians, is not competent for the Scribe, who shoulde Math. 13. bee prepared for the Kingdome of God, and bring out of his storehouse thinges bothe newe and olde, that hee may bee a Pastor Ierem. 3. according to God his heart to feede them with knowledge and vnderstanding. Tou­ching the want of liuing in some Pa­rishes, for which cause (hee sayth) The Byshoppes haue ordered some of meane ability. If they obserued the rule of the Apostle, that at this time Their aboundaunce mighte supply others 1 Cor. 8. 15. lacke, that also others aboundance might be for their lacke, that as it is written, hee that gathered much hath nothing ouer, and hee that gathered little had not the lesse: Then that obiection neede not bee made. In his large discourse to salue the sore of the vnpreaching ministry, wherein hee laboureth to disprooue the Abstractors assertion, who affirmeth that preaching of the Word is the ordinary meanes to [Page 71] worke fayth: hee hath many wordes but no reason. For as one wel beatē, leaueth him that mastereth him and turneth to some easier match, in steede of proouing out of the Scriptures, that reading of the word is ordinarily so honoured, that it should bee an ordinary instrument to worke fayth; hee prooueth by many pla­ces of Scripture a cleane other thing: namely, that the reading of the Worde receiueth some other blessing then that which is extraordinary, which euerye one will graunte him. For they are no small blessinges, that by publique rea­ding & priuate exercise of the word, men are prepared & made fit for the publike ministry: and afterwards are continual­ly quickned in al Christian holines, and confirmed in the publike doctrine, which is al the sence of the places which he al­ledgeth. And it is as if one shold reason: Apollo watered y ^• Corinthes, therfore Paul only did not plant thē. Where he asketh Actes. 15. why Moses is read euery Sabboth in the Synagogues: we answere, to the former ends, and more fully with S. Iames, that euery sabboth day he might be preached. [Page 72] Neither doth he in any sort satiffie that which is obiected out of the Apostle, Rom. 10. seeing hee speaketh of such Preachers as are publikely and solemn­ly sent. verse 15, which we hope he will not vnderstande of bare reading, and of such as the Prophet Esaie, with admi­ration of the blessing of the Gospel cri­eth out: How beautifull are the feete of Esay. 52. 7. those which preach peace, of those which preach good thinges. As for his obiecti­on, Of many thousandes in the tyme of persecution by bare reading con­uerted: and that we are not to saye that the people where they haue no preaching Minister, be saued by my­racle: It is not worth an answere. For besides, that the blessing of God is ex­traordinary, by raysing vp the light of the Gospell in so palpable darkenesse, which had couered the whole earth: in stead of a thousand he can not shew one, who by bare reading, without the prea­chinges then vsed in secreat, and the o­pen publishing of the truth by the Mar­tyrs at their death: or by ordinary prea­ching going afore, (as in the dayes of [Page 73] King Edward of blessed memory,) haue beene truly conuerted vnto the Lorde. In the other poynt he is forced to goe a­gainst y ^• wool. For whereas else-where, though to an ill ende, namely, to dazell the eyes of the people that they shoulde not see the plague of an ill ministery, he doth worthely commend the running of the Gospell vnder her Maie [...]ies happy gouernment: yet heere he is fayne to as ill a purpose, farre more vnworthely to abase the same, as though preaching were so scant, (as the Lorde knoweth it is very scant, and both Country and Ci­tie doe lament the rarenes of it), as that men can not haue fayth but by reading onely: which is farre otherwise, seeing they ought to haue at the least foure ser­mons euery yeare: & it is as if complay­ning of a great dearth, one should aske how they liue that starue not? As good is his reason out of Angust. The scrip­tures containe all thinges necessarye to saluation, therefore men may ordinarily haue faith by bare and naked reading. As materiall is his demaund following, whether the declaring and publishing [Page 74] of the Worde, be not a kinde of decla­ration and preaching of the Lordes will vnto vs. And that which he sayth after­wardes of Homilyes, that although in a strickt signification they be not prea­ching, yet in some sence, they are as well as a Sermon penned, is vttered forth to the people: for so it may be replyed that Psal. 19. the insensible creatures preach and pub­lishe God his will, and that the sheepe­hardes Luk. 2. preached, though not as he sayth, in a strikt signification. So women and Children may make a declaration of the wil of God, and yet not apt to preach as the scripture requireth of euery Mi­nister. Further, if he had remembred that the Apostle maketh so great a difference between his owne writing & preaching: as when he writeth to the Romanes, he desireth earnestly to preach vnto them also: he need not haue maruailed if good men make such seperation between the reading of good writinges of men, & the liuely preaching of the holye worde of God: especially considering he can not be ignoraunt, that the one proceedeth onely from the common gyftes of the [Page 75] knowledg to read, & of an audible voice, and the other from the especiall gyftes of interpretatiō, of doctrine, & exhortati­on, giuen by the holy ghost, as peculierly for the Church-ministerye. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. Ephes. 4. And if he had not for­gotten the ancient question after y ^e rea­ding of Demostenes oration, O what if you had heard him selfe speake it, He would not haue maruayled y ^• God hath attributed the first fruits, or rather first spring of our fayth to y ^e liuely preaching of the Worde. James 1. which in that respect is compared to sowing. Mat. 13 to begetting. James 1. to grafting 1. Cor. 3. This trueth, that all Ministers ought to be apt to teach, as it is moste manifest and cleare by the Scriptures, so it hath witnesse from the Church, e­uen when it was fallen almost to decay, but specially when-soeuer any worthye seruice of God florished, as may appeare by their decrees, canons & sentences fol­lowing, few only of many being sparing­ly takē for breuities sake. Concil. Carthag. 4. in y ^e rules of examining a Bish. accor­ding to the 1. Tim. 3. amongst the other [Page 76] proprieties there mentioned, it is requi­red to be sought, If he be learned, if he be instructed in the law of God: If he be Cau­tus sensibus scripturae, warie in the sence of the scriptures: si in dogmatibus exercitatus, it he be exercised in doctrines, opinions or sentences, meaning of all sortes, that he may be able to put difference. And in the Canons of Pope Celestine the 1. Can. reproouing a superstition in Mi­nisters, in squaring their outwarde at­tire to the phrase of certaine places of Scripture, We haue learned (sayth he) that some Priestes or Ministers of God, do serue or giue them-selues to a superstitious kinde of seruice, rather then to the puritye of the minde and faith, who beeing cloked, hauing their loynes girt, beleeue that they shall em­brace the faith of holy Scripture, not by the spirit but by the letter. And hauing shewed that we must not do the thinges, but that which is ment by such speaches: he saith further, We are to be discerned from the people or others by doctrin, not by garments. Now when they haue no more soundnes in faith and abilitiy to admonishe, then is requyred in Christians: how are they [Page 77] discerned from the common people and others by doctrine? Concil. Toletan. 4. Ignorance the mother of all errours is espe­cially to be auoyded in Priestes or Mini­sters, who haue taken on them the dutey of teaching among the people of God. For Paul doth commaund Priestes or Ministers to read the Scriptures often, saying to Timothy attend to reading & exhortation: let Priests or Ministers therefore know the holy scrip­tures, and let them meditate the Canons: Polu sun­teles. let all their worke consist in diuine prea­ching and doctrine, and let them edifie all as well with the knowledge of faith as with the discipline of works. And Chriso. 1. Tim 5. 17, For this is much for the edification of the Church, and very requisite that the Elders be apt to teach, for this cause with the rest, with this, that they should be giuen to hospitality, they shoulde be moderate that they should be vnblameable, he also num­breth this saying, he must be didacticos, apt to teach, for this he is sayde to be a Tea­cher. Which testimony, declareth eui­dently that aptnesse to teach is no more an Idaea, then all the rest specified by the Apostle. So August. Homilia de pastor. [Page 78] Hauing prooued at large all the dueties of preaching to lye vppon the Pastours of the Church, sheweth how by the A­postle, they must not only preach, but be instant in it, saying. For here the Apostle sayeth, preach the Worde, be instant, in sea­son and out of season. To whom in sea­son? To whom out of season? In season to those who will, out of season, to those who will not. And thus much for an vn­preaching ministerie.

Ministers fallen to idolatrie from their Mi­nisterie, ought not to be receiued to their ministerie.

HItherto hath beene handled the 1. Timot. 3. principall cause of the Ministery, as it were the proper glorye of the man of God, that he be apt to teach. Now it is meet in the next place, to mayne­tayne also that truth which the aunswe­rer impugneth, that Ministers fallen to idolatry, ought not to be admitted vnto the ministerie of the Gospell by anye ordinary authoritie of the Church: that so the glorye which God hath appoyn­ted vnto the ministerie might be mayn­tayned, [Page 79] both for sufficiencie, and the au­thoritie which they should gaine by be­ing voyde of all suspicion of inconstan­cie in that religion which he shoulde deliuer, with much full perswasion of the truth to liue and die in the same: and to be willing to deale their owne liues 1. Thes. 1. Iohn. 10. for their flocke. For notwithstanding it must be true, that aboue all thinges the Godly Ministers are to take dili­gent heede, that they doe not in confi­dence of their strength, or with a spice of free-will as Peter did, boldly promise such constancie: yea, when we are by Christe his voyce admonished of our owne frailtie: yet in all humblenesse, trembling, and feare, (resting vpon God his promise to minister strength to the weake, and courage to the faint hear­ted) they ought as the chiefe captaines Heb. 13. of the Lordes army, and conductors of his host, not onely be free from proba­ble suspicion of such foule cowardli­nesse, yea, of execrable high Treason; (seeing such doe not onely flee, before the enimies of God, but vnto them, and that betray the strong tower of God his [Page 80] pure and holy seruice, into the hands of the diuell his sworne enemy) but ought also to be examples & patterns of al rea­dines to suffer for the truth. His wordes for the impugning of this manifest truth are: The contrary of this Do­ctrine of his, may bee prooued by the example of Aaron, who was an Idolater or an abbettor of idola­try in the golden Calfe, and yet was not from his repentance put from his priesthood. Likewise by Peter, whose reuolt and temporary Apostasy in de­nying his Master Christe was no lesse heinouse, then the sinne of our idola­trouse priests, who for the moste part sinned but of ignorance in that gene­rall blindenesse. Likewise Augustine, afterward a famous Byshoppe, was by the space of many yeares, a detestable Manachy. And after he alleageth many testimonies of the Concil. Meldens, & the glo. out of the Nicen, and out of Leo. And Augustin, that Heretickes as namely Nouatians and Donatistis, returning from their Heresies may be receiued. And out of Viret, that From [Page 81] Popery, men maye be receiued to the Gospell. Peter Viret in dialog. la discipline eccles. des eglises reformes du royaulme de Fraunce. pag. 128. 129. Now all these allegations, although they carrye some shew to him who vnderstandeth not the cause, yet to him that shal but once con­sider of the question, as it is before with out ambiguitie set downe, it is mani­fest that his allegations touch not the questions. For the examples of Aaron and Peter were without the compasse of the ordinarye power of the Church, who beeing immediatelye called of God, coulde not be demissed by the Church. For seeing no calling can bee made voyde, but by the authority which made it, that which hath immediately proceeded from God, can not be repea­led but by his voyce. Now seeing the immediat voyce of God and Christ, did not onely not make voyde, but further e­stablish the calling of Aaron and Peter: how could y ^e Church meddle with that? Or how coulde the rule giuen to the Church, for to direct their mediate ele­ctions, rule the immediate calling of [Page 82] God? And if this be not playne i­nough to cause him to see the diffe­rence which is as greate, as that which is betweene GOD and his Churche, the voyce of man, and the voyce of GOD: Let him vnder­stande it by an other example of lyke reason. It hath beene proo­ued alreadye, both by the Scriptures and Fathers, that none shoulde be ad­mitted to the Ministery by the Church, but such as were sufficiently qualifi­ed by ordinary meanes, or gyftes gi­uen them alreadye of God vnto the same function. Now, if to defend the Bishoppes, in admitting Taylors, Sho­makers, For this, if need be, we can name the persons and prooue it. Amos. 7. 14. Weauers, Chaundlers, Har­pers, beeing also men furnished with no gyftes: one shoulde alleadge the cal­ling of Amos, who by God was ta­ken from the sheepfolde, beeing ney­ther a Prophet, nor sonne of a Pro­phet: woulde it not be a manyfest dal­lying in the sight of God and man? But rather as the ordinary power of the Church can not heerein imitate the Lordes prerogatiue, because they [Page 83] can not, as God with their calling powre in gyftes into the personnes, whereby they shoulde bee inabled to their office: So they muste not fol­lowe the prerogatiue of GOD in this, because they are rather to bee gealouse and suspicious for the Chur­ches sake (though other-wyse they are bound to hope the beste of a re­pentaunt Sinner) ouer him, leaste he shoulde agayne betraye the cause of GOD; which in God is farre other-wyse, who not onelye knoweth the heartes of men, but also what strength he will after gyue him: and if hee let him fall, hee knoweth how to tourne it to the profitte of his Church. Now, as these examples in this respecte approche not vnto the matter in debate. So the example of AVGVSTINE a Manachie or such lyke, because the question is not of such as were before their ministerye such, or carryed away with the common ignoraunce before they knew the trueth: but of suche as firste seruiuge GOD in his [Page 84] appoynted seruice, doe not onely leaue the holy altar and fire, but renouncing that, betake them-selues to a prophane and idolatrous seruice and priesthoode. Wherin he receiueth answere also vnto his allegations of the fathers and coun­sels, which if they should speake of such as fell in capitall pointes from the true seruice of God, of which, somtimes they were Ministers: they should then be di­rectly contrary to the fathers and gene­ral counsels, which shal anon be brought as direct and manyfest on our side. The lyke is to be answeared vnto Viret, and the example of the French Churches. Hauing thus aunsweared his obiecti­ons, the truth is confirmed sufficiently by the reasons following, out of the Scriptures and auncient witnes from the councels and Fathers.

1 Whatsoeuer God hath commaunded to be done in the lawe, to declare the honour he hath of his right seruice, & how he will haue his Ministery beau­tified and fenced, against the cauilles of all (which are perpetuall equityes of such their prescription. 1. Tim. 3. 7) [Page 85] that is still and perpetuallye to binde the Church:

2 But such is the order which now we speake of, as may appeare by the 1. King. 23. 9. and by the 44. of E­zech. 13. 14. 15. &c:

3 Wherefore this order must be kept holy and vndefiled.

We know it will be obiected, that these commaundementes be in the olde Testament, not in the new: and that they are ceremoniall. They who shall so obiect, must consider the old Testament is of equal authority with the new, and therefore seeing God hath once establi­shed this law for the Church-ministery, they must not repeale it but by the same authoritie, vnlesse they will make with y ^• Manichees, one iust God for the law, and an other mercifull for the Gospel: So that vnlesse it maye be shewed, ey­ther that this law was onely a shadowe for a tyme to come, or was made for some cause peculier for that tyme and those persons (which they can not doe, because of the perpetuall equityes be­fore assigned): It followeth, that this [Page 86] must stande for an holy and induring constitution of God. And in trueth such aunswere vndermineth at once, both the glorye and perfection of God his holy Scriptures, not onelye in our iudgement, but in the iudgement of all wryters, holy and prophane, who haue continually alleadged the sentences, and commaundementes of the olde Te­stament, euen for the matters of the go­uernment of the Church. The Apo­stle prooueth the mayntenaune of the Ministerye for preaching of the Gos­pell, by the lawe made for the main­tenaunce of the Priestes, in the 1. Cor. 9. he prooueth women ought not to ex­ercise authority, by the places of Gene­sis. and in the first of Tim. 2. Cyprian, as all know that read him, prooueth the election of the people by the place of Numbers; and that men are not to attempt further then their calling, by the places of Dathan, Abiram, Uzza in the carrying of the Arke, and such lyke. If this exception serue, howe shall we any longer with the Fathers and Godly wryters of our age, stoppe [Page 87] their mouthes, for the proofe of the Baptisme of Children, with the rea­sons from Circumcision, drawne out of the lawe? Nay, that they maye see they can not vndermyne the gouern­ment of Christe with such aunswers, but they must also shake the brazen Pyllers of the Sacred authoritye of the Magistrate: Let them shew with what Argumentes they can stoppe the Mouthes of Papystes in maintay­ning the Supreame authoritie of the Prince, and our moste gratious So­ueraigne in Ecclesiasticall causes, to reforme religion, according to Gods word: to plant Church-officers by the rules of the same, and according there­vnto to depose Abiather, and set vp Sa­dotk, to call synodes Ecclesiastical when need is, or when the Church-gouer­nours neglect their dutye, other then by the examples of Ezechias, Solomon Jehoshaphat, Josias, and by the preg­nant reasons drawn from them. Wher­fore let them leaue these euasions and shifts vnto popish diuines, to whom they appertaine. But least they should thinke [Page 88] we haue but one piller to vpholde this trueth: and that onely in the olde Testa­ment, let them answere the reasons fol­lowing out of the newe. If Paule did rightly think It so vnlawfull to take Mark Exiou. such a one as went from them from Pamphi­lia, and accompanied them not vnto the worke, y ^• he would rather be at sharp strife with Barnabas the sonne of consolation, and Actes. 15. 38 be seperated from so worthy a compani­on in all his labors, then accept Mark: herein being iustified aboue Barnabas by S. Luke, both in assigning of these iust causes of S. Pauls refusall, and gi­uing Vers. 38. the Testimony of the Churche to Paul, who commēded him to y ^e grace of Verse. 40. God, of both which cōcerning Barnabas he keepeth silence: Then by how much Caluin on this place. more right may and ought we to striue with such, as haue not only left the work of the Lorde, but haue beene annointed with the filthy grease of the vncleane priesthoode, and haue receiued the balde marke of the beast, and haue in conti­nuall ministry blasphemed the most ho­ly, that they should not be taken againe into the fellowship of this worke and ser­uice [Page 89] of the Gospell. Lastly, when as the Apostle requireth y ^• all Ministers must haue a good Testimony of those who are without, least he fal into the reproch and Diabolou, so taken verse, 11. snare of the caueller. 1 Tim. 3. 7. howe cā they auoid this reproch, who are to be taunted with their back-sliding, with the turning of their coates, and with high treasons againste their GOD? how are not they in danger of the snare, who haue opened a way vnto Sathan and the world, how they may deal with them already? Nowe vnto this deuine voyce of the Prophets, we add the reue­rend, (though humane) testimony of aun­cient time. Wherein the sentence of the generall Councel of Carthage, alleadged before vs by Cyprian, is of most reuerend account. Cyprian, lib. 1. epist. 4. And there be other both many and grienous faultes, wherewith Basilides and Marshall are in­wrapped: such do in vaine go about to occu­py the place of a Byshop, seeing it is manifest that such men may not gouern the Churche of Christ, nor offer vp Sacrifices vnto God; Especially when of late both with vs, and with all the byshops in the worlde, euen Cor­nelius [Page 90] also our fellow in ministry peaceable and iust, and whom the Lord vouchsafed the honour of a Martyr, decreed that such men might be admitted to repentance, but should notwithstanding be kept from the cleargy or ministery. By which also it is manifest, y ^• this Counsel was not that prouinciall which concluded rebaptization, where­unto Cornelius neuer consented. And how Cyprian himselfe mainteineth our reasons, may appeare by his discourse in the 7. Epist. lib. 1. and his wordes fol­lowing. How dare he challenge vnto him the ministery which he hath betrayed: as though it were lawfull after hauing beene at the Alter of the diuell, to come vnto the Alter of God. And againe: Seeing therefore the Lorde threatneth such tor­mentes and punishmentes in the daye of his wrath, to such as obey the Deuill, and sacrifice to Idolles: howe can hee thinke, that he may doe the office of the minister of God, which hathe obeied, and serued the priests of the deuils? or howe doth hee thinke that his hand can be translated to the sacri­fice & praier of the Lord, which was captiue to sacriledge & such a crime. These may [Page 91] suffice for this point: that after we haue mainteined the due honour of God his Embassadors, we should also maintain the iust, lawfull and holy authority com­mitted vnto them of God.

Of the authoritie of Ministers of the Worde.

COncerning the authority of Mini­sters, he speaketh thus. Page. 53. And heereuppon I woulde bee resol­ued by the Authour or some other, whether hee thinke this indowment of euerye Minister with the execu­tion of all dicsipline, admitting but not graunting it to be so by law, to be a conuenient pollicy, for the vnity & quiet of the Churche? And whether he him selfe had not rather be vnder the forme now in practize, in regard of his owne contentment, then vnder the infinite dictatorship of his owne minister? or else whether shoulde ap­pellations frō the iudgement of the minister in this respect be allowed of? and whether to the byshoppe or to [Page 92] whome? and whether the Byshop by this interpretation of lawe, shall not retain his authority of executing the Discipline of the Church vpon euery particuler minister, and in euery seue­rall parish as afore time, seeing the au­thour sayth, as well as the Byshop in his diocesse? And if he shall, what if the Byshop vppon good cause, and for abusing of the authority, shall sus­pende the Minister from his iurisdi­ction of executing Discipline, is hee not at the same point he was before? what if the Byshop him-selfe dwell in the parish, who shall then haue the preheminence? and what if the mini­sters discretion serue him, vpon some small or surmised cause to excommu­nicate some great pear or noble coun­seller of his parish, whose indignati­on may turne the whole Church to greate mischeefe? or to proceede a­gainst his Patrone, who peraduenture hath a bōd of him to resign. And a lit­tle after. page. 54. The author seemeth to me to deuide the discipline of the Church, which he would intitle euery [Page 93] Minister vnto, into admonition, de­nuntiation, and excommunication. If by denuntiation, he meane the publi­shing of Excommunication done by him selfe, then is it a part thereof. If (as I rather think) he mean the second degree of proceeding vpon faults not publike, specified in the 18. of S. Ma­thew, then is this common with the minister vnto all other Christians, e­uen as admonition is, being, the first degree: And where the minister is the party offended, and hath not preuay­led, neither by his admonition in pri­uate, nor his denuntiation before two or three, to whome shall hee tell it in the third place, where he himself hath the authority to excommunicate? and a little after in this respect hee calleth the Ministers priuate and inferiour. And againe, pag. 59. Yes truely, as was touched afore, they doe and may exe­cute the discipline of declaring by doctrine, according to the Worde of God, mens sins to be bound or losed, and the censure of rebuking and pro­uing openly, those that doe freeze in [Page 94] the dregges of theire sinnes, which are not the leaste partes of discipline: which is as much (as for auoiding in­tollerable inconueniences, which o­therwise would insue) as is expedient to bee attributed to euery one &c. A little after: And if no especiall preemi­nence might be attributed in matter of execution of discipline to one mi­nister aboue another: why is it sayde by S. Paul, excommunicating the ince­stuous Corinthian, Absens decreui, be­ing absent I decreed, seeing they had Ministers of their own, and willed the denuntiation afterward to be done o­penly in the Church? And at the time of his absolution Paul being absente saith, to whom you forgiue any thing I forgiue also: likewise speaking of the Anathematisme of Hymenaeus and A­lexander: I haue giuen them vp vnto Sathan, not naming their owne Mini­ster, or any segniory. Againe. fol. 61. But if hee meane the discipline pas­siuely, I thinke hee and his fellowes haue had some wrong at the cheefe prelates hands a great while. If actiue­ly, [Page 95] that euery minister without check might haue the execution of all dis­cipline in his owne Parish, I do veri­ly beleeue that this man, and others, who so earnestly call for they knowe not what, If they might not be them selues also Elders, auncientes, or what you will sauing Priests of the Seigni­ory, would be the the first weary of it; For if I knowe their disposition, they are as vnpatient as any men, to bee at controlment, and moste of all by a poore Minister.

It hath alwaies bene the practise of y ^e subtile Serpent, who, that hee might vndermine the authorye of Gods Em­bassadours, and bring the Messengers of the most highest vnto disgrace, to lift vppe some, who neglectinge the moste essentiall duetyes of a Pastoure and Elder, in feeding the flockes; and being a Pattern in their whole life and example vnto them, are wont to climbe into the ambitious throne of exercising a vsurped ecclesiasticall Dominion, and a Lordship ouer their fellow-ministers; that whilste by their place and pompe, [Page 96] they might amaze the people, as beeing men of great learning and wisedome, and might also by their authority make the poore Ministers as the aunswearer sayth, Priuat Ministers, to speake when they wil, wryte to what they list, and to be their Commissaries cryer, y ^t is, their mās man to promulgat his sentence of excommunication at his pleasure, hee might also bring to passe that which the Prophet Jeremy complayneth of in both. The Prophets prophesie for reward, Veha coha­nim iirdu Gnal ieda­hem * or by their hādes and the Priestes exercise dominion * by their meanes: and my people loue it so, and what will they doe in the ende? Which we see hath not onely won much vnto the cause of Sathan in popery, but also it keepeth much power vnto him amongest those, who do professe the Gospell: For by this meanes it commeth to passe, that they will goe 5. mile to heare a Lord preach, when they will hardly come to Church to heare their owne Pastour: By this meanes they becomme so irreuerent, or rather sawcie with their Pastour, that they care no more for his admonition and rebuke, then for the bleating of a [Page 97] sheepe: by this meanes they maye call him before a Commissarye, a lay-man (as he speaketh) they may fetch out Ex­communications thicke and three-folde if hee appeare not, and so not only not haue him not to exercise dominion ouer them which Peter forbiddeth, but also 1. Peter. 5. be Lordes ouer their Pastour beeing but priuate personnes, which the lawe of reason disaloweth. Which pollicy of Sathan, although it become odious in the sight almost of all men, but especial­ly of true and louing subiects, who are greeued that some not onelye exercise Lordship ouer theire fellow-ministers, but also pearche so high, as they pray vp­on the right of princes, whilste they (for­soothe) may not eate flesh in Lent, or on a Fryday, but by a Byshoypes lycense: yet this man who hath giuen his tong leaue to reuile the Ministers with di­uers slaunders & reproches, cannot con­tent himselfe with that, but must open his mouth against the due authority of the Ministers of Jesus Christe. In which respect wee account our selues bounde by the Canonicall obedience, [Page 98] which we owe vnto y ^e Archbishop of our soules Jesus Christ, according to y ^e Ca­nons 1. Peter. 5. which he hath made in his worde: first to shew how this man disordereth y ^e questiō according to his maner, voweth consent (as it seemeth) with the Jesuits in these his assertions & proofs, and then hauing discussed his allegations, to con­firm the plain truth by holy authority of scripture, and worthy witnes of ancient times. In the entrance therfore, the An­swerer is not content only to fly from y ^e issue, (whether according to the word of God, the minister shold exercise the cen­sures of the Church according to y ^• word of God, which with vs is executed by Commissaries, meere lay-men,) vnto a­nother thing, namely, what inconueni­ences the excommunication committed to the pastor might bring, but also to set vpon a matter neuer affirmed by vs, that a minister should without the rest of the ecclesiastical senate perform this thing. His agreement with the Papists may appeare manifestly by their Annotation, the 4. ver. of 5. cap. 1. Cor. Their wordes are these: Though he commanded the Acte [Page 99] shoulde be done in the face of the Church, as such sentences and censures bee at this day executed also: yet the iudgement and autho­rity of giuing sentence was in himselfe, and not in the whol multitude, as the Protestants and populer sects affirm. Wherfore seeing his cause is that, which is betweene the sworne enimies of GOD and his Church: we are not to fear, but the truth which hath preuayled so often against them, shall also carry the Garland from this newe Wrestler. His first reasons are drawne from the inconueniences, which hee thinketh will come vnto the Church by this means, as requiring ra­ther (like a Ciuilian not a diuine) what is safe, then what is according to God his wil: Amongst which, he demaundeth whether the Authour had not rather be vnder the forme that nowe is, then vn­der the infinite dictatorship of his owne minister? which I aunswere by another Question: why should the ministers cen­sures proceeding by the equall authority of an Eldership, vpon causes determined by God his worde in a small volume, be more infinite then y ^e Commissaries, who [Page 100] cannot but proccede according to the infinite and contradictorye Canons of their Law, who can excommunicate vp­on non apparaunce for a matter, of 12▪ pence. Is it liker that one Minister shal haue many elders more tied to his wil & pleasure, then one Commissary his own affections: Againe, may not their ap­peale from one Eldership, to a Confe­rence or assemblie of many Ministers and Elderships, be as safe as from the Commissary to another Byshop? And if it were granted that the Byshop should haue authoritye in euerye particuler Churche: yet with the Ministers con­sent (vnlesse he will iustle one lawe a­gainst another) why were it not more reasonable & safe, then as it is nowe in the Byshoppe alone: Seeing then the Minister might haue more particuler knowledge of the causes in his Congre­gation then the Byshop, and yet if hee were rash, the Byshops wisedome might stay him. And if the Byshoppe shoulde suspende the Minister vppon abuse of his authoritye, yet hee were not at the same poynt he was before, because then [Page 101] they which did not abuse their autho­ritye, mighte exercise it still. And if the Byshoppe dwell in the Parish and had preheminence, yet hee shoulde not draw the execution of Discipline to himselfe onely, but to holde it in common with him. But what doe I answering his cauelles agayuste the Lawe, seeing I doubt not but the Abstractor will soone aunswere his cauill in this behalf. For the fountayns which are in his Booke already, are not yet dammed vp by the answerer: Wherefore, I passe to his in­cōuenience, which he fetcheth from the want of discretion in y ^• Minister, which is; What if hee vpon want of discreti­on, doe excommunicate some greate peere of his Parish vppon some sur­mized cause, whose indignation may turne the whole church to great mis­cheefe? To this I answere, that vnlesse the Byshops seat aboue a Pastors, be so sanctified (as Hierome sayth) by humain constitutions, as that it can alwaies proceede with discretion and Wisdome, when the Pastors seate sanctified with God, and ordained with so many preti­ous [Page 102] promises, shoulde bee subiect to more follye and headinesse, then the chayre of the Byshoppe: this incon­uenience is as likelye to fall into the Byshoppe as the Minister. Further, whether is more likely, that the By­shop hauing by reason of his counte­naunce and Ciuill authoritye, bothe more heart-burning betweene the No­ble Counsailers and himselfe, and be­ing in lesse feare, as thinking him selfe better able to shoulder amongest them, would be more bold in his conceit, then a poore Minister (as hee calleth him) who neuer woulde for feare, but vp­on moste necessary and sufficient cause vrged in conscience, aduenture suche thing? neither if hee woulde, could many graue Elders, without whom he coulde do nothing, bee drawne vnto it, especial­ly considering; that their feare woulde preuayle, where greate Conscience of theire duetie shoulde not ouercome it. And maye not this man when his o­pinion as a Canker shall frette so farre, turne all this agaynst the euery of pub­lique rebuking, as-well as agaynste [Page 103] the Mynisters execution of Disci­plyne: for maye he not also demaunde, whether the Byshoppe shall retayne his authoritye to preache in his Dio­cesse? and if hee bee in that Parishe, who shall haue the preeminence? If hee suspende the Minister from prea­chinge: whether hee bee not at the same poynte hee was before? And what if the Minister vppon some dis­cretion woulde rebuke openlye some Peere of the Realme, vpon bare con­ceyte, or some surmise: shall then the duetye of the Minister in Preaching for suche vnitye of the Churche cease and bee counted inconuenient? If hee saye no, this is the commaundemente of GOD, and necessarye for Chri­stian institution: so wee saye, this is the commaundemente of JESUS CHRISTE, and necessarye for holye correction. In the nexte place hee asketh to whome the Pastour shall tell it, when hee doth admonishe him him-selfe▪ I aunswere for the Pastour, easely to the whole Eldership, as our sa­uiour willeth. But this question in deed [Page 104] cleane dasheth the sole authority of the Bishop out of countenaunce. For to whom shall he tell? not to the Congre­gation of Elders, as our Sauiour com­mandeth but to the Church, which stan­deth of him-selfe only as he desireth▪ not ascending by the stayres of Christ, from one to two, from two to manye Godly Chrisost. in Math. 18. Presidents, as Chrisostome speaketh, but by the stayres of Rome, to descend from two to one, and to take the matter wher­in he is a party, into his own hands, and proceed in censure Ecclesiasticall as li­keth him-selfe best? In the next, to blear mens eyes with all, he graunteth they may rebuke in publike doctrine, bynde and loose by preaching, which is a great part of Discipline: as though any man were so blynd, (as when the booke ma­keth three partes of the Ministers Of­fice ministring of doctrine, ministering of the Sacraments, and ministring of Discipline) as not to see what violence he doth; Nay, what folly he imputeth to the booke, as though they shoulde make three of two. For if Discipline be no­thing but the open rebuking in prea­ching, [Page 105] and binding and loosing by the same, that beeing a parte of ministring the Doctrine by preaching, is manifest­ly contained vnder it: and so not onelye maketh one two, but carrieth one halfe from one end of the sentence to another, placing a thirde betweene, and for an vmpier belike, leaste they shoulde fall out, or else being ioyned orderly togea­ther, should to much annoy him. But his reasons, which the Jesuites haue shaken against the trueth hefore him, do follow. Unto which I aunswere, that it follow­eth not, that if the Apostle mighte by sole authority excommunicate, therefore the Byshop may: for an Apostle is of far greater authority then a Byshop is. Se­condly, it is false that the Apostle did onely command vnto them to pronounce the sentence as the Byshop doth, the mi­nister giuing them no further authori­ty. For although as an Apostle whose duety was to deliuer ordiaunces, which the Churches were to obserue and keep, hee did iustlye decree as the voyce of Christe, and so commaunde them what they should do: yet he doth not excommu­nicate, [Page 106] or take it vnto him-selfe, but wil­leth that by the authority of Christ, they should caste out (not pronounce his sen­tence of eiection) they shold Seperate frō 1. Cor. 5. ver. 7. 12. 13. amongst them such, that they Should iudge those within that is vnder their authori­ty, not that they shoulde only pronounce his sentence of seperation and iudge­ment, which is also most manyfest by his other allegation, out of the second to the Corinthes, where hesheweth that hee a­lone 2. Cor. 2. 10. would not forgiue, but whomsoeuer they forgaue, he would forgiue: he calleth it the rebuke or censure of many, not of Epi [...]imia. Charisas­thai. Curosai. him-selfe; He sheweth, now they ought freely to forgiue, he did exhort them to ra­tifie, and by authority confirme their loue towards him. Let him therfore take this necessary collectiō cleane against him, y ^• if y ^• Apostle wold not, nor durst not take vnto himself the sole anthority of excom­munication & absolution, but left it vnto the church: How shal any one bishop pre­sume to shut out y ^• Ministers and elders, & carry it wholy vnto himself? His next reason is of as great force. The Apostle saith he did deliuer vnto sathan, & menti­oneth [Page 107] neither their Ministry nor segnio­ry, therfore he did alone. Upon which ex­ample I reason thus. Paule saith that Timothy receiued grace by the laying on of his hands, making no mention of y ^• elders: therfore it is false that he saith in the 1. Tim. 4. that he receiued it by the laying on of the hands of the Eldership. James Act. 15. saith. I determine or iudge Therefore it is false, which is after set Act. 15. 19. Crino. ctA 15. 22. down, y ^• this was the decree of the Apostles & Elders, with the consent of the Churches. But what neede I stande to aunswere this argument, which was by a reuerent seruaunt of God, aunsweared openly at Paules crosse, that although the action M. Doctor Day at Paules crosse. No­uember. 17 be giuen to one who moderated, yet nei­ther Peter nor James, nor anye Apostle aboue Apostles, nor Bishop aboue Mi­nisters had any authoritye ouer others, and that as the Senatours were equall in authoritye, notwithstanding he mo­derated, so is it amongest the Apostles and Bishops. And thus much for his reasons. Ours follow, that it belongeth to the Pastor & the Eldership, to excom­municate by the consent of the people. [Page 108] If our Sauiour Christ. Math. 18. when hee sayth tell the Churche, meane not one Bishop, because one can not be a number, nor one alone a Church, and he goeth vpwarde from one to 2. from two to moe, not contrarywise, from twoo to one: neither can it be meant of manye Churches, for then it muste bee all the whole Church (in the phrase of the scrip­ture) and it were a confusion and vnpos­sibility for many Churches, or the whol people to heare all such Ecclesiasticall causes: but do meane vpon these reasons a particular Congregation, then our as­sertion is most true and certaine. The first we haue proued, therfore the second is true.

1 That which the Apostle maketh the iudgement of a particular Congrega­tion, that must needes appertaine to the Pastor and the rest of the Elders, as the gouernours, and to the people as consenters:

2 But this the Apostle plainelye ex­presseth 1. Cor. 5. 12. Why iudge you not those who are within? Seperate him there­fore from amongst you:

[Page 109]3 Therfore it is true which we affirm.

If it be the especiall dutye of the Pa­stor, by the authority of the Eldership, to deliuer the holye Sacramentes to the worthy, and detayne them from the vn­worthy: Then vnlesse he should be com­pelled to gyue them to the vnworthye, and with-hold them from the worthy, ex­communication muste belong to him with his fellow Elders. But the first is manifest by these Scriptures. Leuit. 10. 11. Zephan 3. 3. They haue pol­luted Quodesh. the holye thinges. And 1. Cor. 11. 26. 27. Wherefore our assertion is true. The consequent of the firste part is manyfest, because he must deli­uer them to all, not suspended and excom­municated, and to the rest hee must not. The consent of the auncient tymes a­gree vnto this. The counsell of Arles. 2. Can. 30. authoriseth the suspencion which the Elders and Clearkes decree a­gainst the Bishop. And they doe it by the authority of auncient decrees. Also, see­ing the councels conclude both general­lye that the Bishop shall not proceed in any cause of gouernment Ecclesiasticall [Page 110] without the Elders: and that they shall not ordayne without them, and that they alone can not so much as gyue leaue to any of the Cleargy to goe vnto the Wi­dowes or Uirgins, but with the consent of the Elders: it followeth much more, that they mighte not excommunicate without them. Now the first sort are directly prooued by these Canons fol­lowing. Concil. Carthag. 4. cap. 23. That the Bishops heare no cause, without the pre­sence of his Clearkes, otherwise the sentence shall be voyde, vnlesse it be confirmed by the presence of the Clearkes. And the 22. That the Bishop ordayne not Clearks without the counsell of his clearks, so that he seeke the assent and leaue, or conniuence & testimo­nie of the citizens. Canon. 3. An Elder Conninen­tiam. when he is ordayned, the Bishop blessing him, holding his hand vppon his heade, let also all the Elders which are present, holde their handes by the handes of the Bishop. That the Clearkes or those who containe, come not to the Widowes or Virgins, but by the commaundement or permission of the Bishops and Elders. And Can. 32. That the Elder reconcile not the penitent, not ha­uing [Page 111] asked councell of the Bishop. Ierom. ad demetri. 1. Epist. The Elders in other censures of the Church, and the Church hath interest in excommunica­tion. Cyprian. lib. 3. Epist. 19. Spea­king of excommunication, of which vntill we shall haue vnderstanding, what he haue done after, which thing when it regardeth the Counsell and sentence of vs all, I dare not preiudicate the matter and draw it on­ly to my selfe, And lib. 3. epist. 14. epist. 15. Traditione dominica. epist. 16. and August. speaking of the elders saith, because all thinges in tradition of the Lord, are done by the holie Ghost, therefore when a rule and forme of this Discipline is deliuered vnto them, it is sayde vnto them, receiue the holy ghost: & because it doth truly appertaine to ecclesiasticall righte, whose sinnes you forgiue. &c.

Of the Doctor or teacher, that he is an or­dinary and perpetuall officer in the Church of Christ, distinct from the Pastor, by the Worde of God.

COncerning which, y ^• words of y ^• an­swerer are these: And I hope that [Page 112] the authour will not heereby gather, that by law nowe in force, a man is vt­terly & simplie forbidden, to haue an other preach in his cure, for then all our new doctours De robe curté, who iutrude themselues vppon, must bee faine to giue ouer their cloakes, and put vp their Pipes. fol. 41.

If this had bene directed against the particuler persons of some, it had beene beyond the rule of charitie and modesty, though he should be a Doctor who spake it, thus to slaunder any with intrusion, and hauing nothing to saye to their do­ctrine and lyues, to gybe at the apparel which they weare in iourney, or other­wise vpon occasion, being both sober and graue, yea when as commonly they vse a gowne with as much grauitie, & lesse flanting then the most of their Doctors consecrated according to the order of men, and not of God. But now, that it is brought to deface (as shall be proued) the ordinaunce of God, thus without all proofe to flout and to taunt the officers of God, beseemeth neither the grauitye of a Cambridge Doctor, nor the modesty [Page 113] of a Christian, nor the ciuility of an ho­nest man. Their intrusion, forsooth, is this, that hauing first (according to the order of the Church of England) authority to preach, they come vpon the ear­nest desire of the Congregatiō, with the consent of the Pastor (vnlesse being no preacher and ignoraunt, for enuy he can not beare him) to instruct the people with wholsome doctrine, out of the true interpretation of the Scriptures, their Pipes, which he sayth prophanely, they may put vp, is the Vtteraunce of know­ledge, a gift of the holy Ghoste, which 1. Cor. 12. is more sweete to GOD his Chil­dren, and acceptable to the Lord, then al the gilded Organes and Pipes in the Realme. For in the spirituall battell, their Sound is vncertaine, when as these as the Siluer trumpets of Gods sauctua­ry 1. Cor. 14. giue certayne warning to the people to serue the Lorde aright. Thus hauing in a worde, with as much patience and modesty as the Lord woulde giue me, touched not the Salt, but vnsauory brine of his floutes: hauing no reason of his to Colos. 4. deale withall, I set downe these fol­lowing, [Page 114] first for profe out of y ^t scripture, then for witnes out of ancient wryters.

1 Whatsoeuer (the Apostle setting downe the ordinary & perpetual mem­bers of Christs body, in euery particu­ler Congregation) doth make an ordi­narie member in the same, distint [...]t in his proper workes and action from all the rest, the same is a perpetuall ordi­nary Church-officer:

2 But he maketh the Doctor (in that reckoning) a distinct member, hauing a distinct action from all the rest, to wit, teaching distinguished there from exhortation, from gouerning, from di­stributing:

3 Wherefore it is plaine, that he is a Church-officer, ordinary and perpetu­all (for his giftes and vse are ordinary and perpetuall) and also distinguished from the Pastor.

1 Whatsoeuer Christe hath giuen to his Church, with an ordinary and per­petuall gift, for the perpetual work of the ministery, gathering and building vp of the Church vnto perfection, that is an ordinary Church-officer:

[Page 115]2 But so he hath giuen Pastours and Doctors. Ephes. 4. 11.

3 Therefore both are perpetuall, and ordinary officers, and by consequent distinct.

Unto this argument, they obiect, be­cause the Apostle hauing sayde, some A­postles, some Prophets, some Euange­listes, he saith in the last place, some Pa­stors and Teachers, which because they are coupled by and, they say they are one and not distinct. To which I aunswere, they may as well prooue hope and chari­ty to be one and not distinct, because the Apostle saith, these three remaine, faith, hope, and charitie, because he coupleth them with and. But if these men haue not learned either that and, though sometymes it rather repeateth or inter­preteth, then coupleth diuers thinges: yet that most properly and commonlye it doth not so, or that it is an elegancie with the Grecians in such long distri­butions, to ioyne the twoo laste mem­bers, especially if they bee of greater kindered and familiaritie then the rest, to ioyne them with a copulatiue [Page 116] coniunction in the ende: If, I say, they haue not obserued this in Homer and o­thers, Let them learne it of Paule, Ga­lath. 3. where beeing about to shew, that in Christe there is no difference of the Verse. 28. outward distinctiō of kindes in this life: he maketh a distinction, or numbring vp of the diuers sorts, and ioyneth the two last most like in nature and kindred, yet not one and the same togeather, saying: There is neither Iewe nor Grecian, ther is neither bond nor free, there is neither male and female. Hauing answered this obiec­tion, I proceede to other argumentes.

1 Whatsoeuer is set as Church-offi­cer in the Church by God, with a di­stinct and proper ordinary gift, that is such as we haue aboue described:

2 But God hath set in the Church Doc­tors, and giuen them their peculiar worke and gyft, The Worde, or vtte­raunce of knowledge, distinguished from the Pastors worke and gift, the Word or vtteraunce of Wisdome in exhorta­tion:

3 Wherfore the Doctor is such a one as we haue described.

[Page 117]The second part is manifest by these wordes. And these God hath set in his Church, first Apostles, secondly Prophetes, thirdly teachers, after powers, thē the gifts of 1 Cor. 12. 28 healing, helpers, gouernors, sorts of tongs: are all Apostles? are al propehts? Are all teach­ers. And ver. 8. To this is giuen by the spi­rit, the word of wisdom, to an other the word of knowledge according to the same spirite. If they say, the Worde teacher, is heere taken generally, not properly for the Doctor: besides the 8. verse, which doth manifestly refel them, these reasons con­fute them: First, because he distingui­sheth them from apostles and Prophets, which in that generall signification should comprehend them, and if it should comprehende anye more then Doctours properly, yet it were no reason to shutte out those who are so called. Lastly, seing they can shew no place where it is so ta­ken, but alwayes is generall of all Mi­nisters of the Word, as the Apostle cal­leth him-selfe A teacher of the Gentiles. And Timothy is willed to teach, as also is euery Bishop; or els it is proper for the peculier Church-officer so called: it [Page 118] were against al rule of interpretation, to shut out the proper, which here agreeth with the circūstances of the text, & take a straunge & vnwonted signification, as to signifie a Pastor by a Doctor. Our last reason is: Seeing the Prophet Esay, prophesying of the calling of the Gen­tiles by the ministerie of the Apostles, doth also prophesie, that of these called to the faith, he would take of them to be Priestes and Leuites, meaning (accor­ding as the Prophets vse to speake, by offices and holy thinges of the lawe, to note out such offices as had some simili­tude, & proportion with those vnder the Gospell) them to be Pastors, who in ad­ministring of the Sacraments, & sleaing by exhortation the old man, & offring vp the new man acceptable to God, holde proportion with the Priestes: and to be Leuits, whose office concerning y ^• sub­stantiall poynt of deliuery of doctrine, is one & the same with theirs, that it must needs be, that according to the scriptures of the new Testament, this prophesie shold be fulfilled in the office of Doctors as well as of Pastors. And this was that [Page 119] which the Fathers ment in their cōmon Ciprian. lib 1. epist. 9. ad furita­nos. Ambros. lib. 1. off. c. 50. Aug. quest ex vtroq: test. mixt. q 101. resembling of Pastors to Priestes. Eu­sebius declareth this most plainly in set­ting down the duties of y ^• Doctor to ca­techise them, & as a master his schollers by continual reading to them, or exerci­sing to aduance them in knowledge. For writing of y ^• persecution of y ^• church vn­der Seuerus, & speaking of Origin, he saith: [...]he exercise of teaching, or the schole ex­ercising, as some where euen himself maketh relation in writing, & none serued or was set to catechise at Alexandria, but all were dri­uen Hist. lib. 5. cap. 3. Scholazon ti de tei di­atribe. Toi Kate­chein ana­keimenou. Toutes ka­techeseos proeste di­daskaleiou. away by the threatning of persecution: some of the Gentils came vnto him to heare the word of God. And a little after: Origin was then 18. yeare old, when he was ouer the schoole of catechising or instructing. And Nazianzen saith in Orat. Pros tous poli­teuomenous. The seruants must be subiect to their masters, the wiues to their husbands, the Church to the Lorde, the Disciples to their Pastors and Teachers.

Of the Elders and Eldership.

HAuing ended the treatise of the Doctor his office; we are to pro­ceede vnto the Elders, and Eldership [Page 120] with whom he dealeth as prophanely as with the others: his wordes are. fol. 43. But why are Presbyteri, such as expoūd in the Church, translated Elders? I trust he mindeth not hereby to shut out all lay-men from the Eldership or seigniory which is dreamed of, least peraduenture he him self be Exclusissi­mus. And Pag. 57. And doth our Au­thor thinke that this man heere doth meane their laye Presbiteries, neuer heard nor reade of from the begin­ning of the worlde, till within these fortye yeares or little more, because he nameth them Ecclesiasticall Ma­gistrates. In which wordes of our au­thor, wee see his cheefest reason against the Ecclesiasticall Presbyterie is, that the Elders are lay, and the Presbyteries lay, and therefore there hath not beene heard til within this forty year, of them in the world. To which we answere, if y ^• Elders which ioine with the Pastor & Doctor were lay men, yet it followeth not, that the Eldership is lay. But can his degree of Doctor (if he bee so much) giue such credite vnto his bare word, as [Page 121] though all y ^• Christian Churches (which by the grace of God do exercise this dis­cipline) shoulde bee beleeued to haue a Presbitery of such as are not elected and ordained Ecclesiastically to their office? If I be not deceiued herein his lawes may teach him if he wil not learn it out of the Scriptures, that whosoe­uer is called with due examination and trial, with the consent of those to whom it appertaineth, and are with fasting and prayers, or prayers onely and with im­position of hands seperated or put a part to that office, that they are Ecclesiastical persons and not lay-men (as he calleth them) otherwise, there is no rule in the Scripture to descerne betweene men priuate, and betweene Church-officers. Nowe, if hee consider either the order which we maintaine out of the Scrip­ture, or that which is practized in al re­formed Churches, he shal find, that they Actes. 14. Actes. 6. 1. Tim. 4. 1. Tim. 5. are duely examined by the Elders, ele­cted of the whole Churche, ordeined of the Eldership, yea, hee shall finde this to be true of Deacons, much more of El­ders. But if this exception were true, as [Page 122] it is moste false, who can chuse, but hee must abhorre the hypocrisy of these men, who can deface the ordinance of God, which they want, which they them­selues haue not. For their Commissa­ries and Chauncellors, who suspende, Excommunicate, and administer the discipline of our Church vnder the By­shops, what are they? who calleth them▪ the Byshop: who ordaineth them▪ or an­noynteth them▪ his Letters Patentes: By whose prayers doe they looke to ob­taine comfort in their calling? by the byshops blessings without prayer, with­out fasting. To what office are they put apart▪ to mingle heauen and earth to­gether, matters of God and matters of men: to excommunicate, & take probats of testaments: to admonish ecclesiastical­ly & commit penance: to be Lord ouer y ^e ministers, themselues hauing taken no degrees. Thus though their calling bee neither ecclesiastical, because they come to no church-election, nor haue any such ordination: nor ciuil, because they be cal­led by y ^• bishop only as he is bishop, put a part neither to administer ecclesiastical [Page 123] things only, nor things ciuil only, but to both and to some which are neither; as to giue men spiritually leaue to mary, and eat flesh in Lente, as though they were made to goe beyonde all good estate of mankinde, beyonde y ^• body, because they meddle with the soule, beyond the soule, because they meddle with that which pertaineth vnto it: nay, somtimes which is hurtful. Wherfore, althogh this were sufficient to stop his prophane mouth: yet that it may appeare that the gray haires of this order, are more auncient then the very hoarie head of his Chaun­cellors and commissaries: I will prooue it to be the ordinaunce of GOD out of the Scriptures, that there ought to bee an Ecclesiasticall Senate of Pastors, Doctors and Elders gouerning onely, to haue the administration of Church­matters, and that they ought to bee ad­ministred Ecclesiastically.

1 If the Apostles set downe two sorts 1. Reason. of Elders which rule the Church wel, and are worthy of double honor: the one sort of them only ruling, the other labouring also in the Worde and [Page 124] doctrine (which are as hath beene pro­ued before the Pastors and Doctors); then it is plaine that these raising on­ly must be added vnto them:

2 But the first is true by the expresse wordes of the Apostle. 1. Tim. 5. 17.

3 Therefore the former assertion is certaine.

To this place some are wont to obiect that the first sort are such as are occupi­ed in the Word and Sacraments, thogh they preach not. But this will not serue, both because we haue prooued that none are to be admitted to that, but they ought to preach, and also because those shoulde yet be occupyed in the Worde, and therefore comprehended vnder the latter sort. Now, when they perceiue this will not serue (beeing men willing to learne of anye) they haue learned of the Jesuites to aunsweare, That such Iesuites Testament Rheimes. 1. Tim. 5. 17. Priests specially and Prelates, are worthy of duble, that is more ample honour, that are able to teach and preach, and do take paines therein. And therefore they make, that all for their office, are worthy of double ho­nour: but specially those which labour [Page 125] diligently and painfully in the Worde. D. Cop. ser. lat. in con. But this shift is manifestly discouered by the text. First, because the Apostle shoulde then haue said thus: they which are occupyed in Word and doctrine, are worthy of double honor, especially those which labour: but he doth not make the ministery of word and doctrine common to both, but the ministery of gouerning. Secondlye, the Apostle by these mens goodly deuice, shoulde not proceede, but should go backwarde in his comparison: for he had then sayde more in the firste part, when he sayd, They which do it well: or (as he might saye) with worthinesse of praise, which he that doth, must not one­ly do it with labour, paines, & diligence, Calos. but also with purity, wisdome, zeale, po­wer, soūdnes, fitnes, & many other things besides labour. So this sense cleane ouerthroweth the Apostles increase by the worde Especially. Thirdly, by this meanes the Apostle muste make three sortes of Ministers of the worde, such as are occupied in the Word, but not well, (belike their ignoraunt Ministers). First, they which shoulde haue some ho­nour [Page 126] for their office sake, then some that doe it well, but not with labour or dili­gence, which must haue double honour though they labour not; & the last, which doe it more then well, which must haue more then double honour. If this be not to dally with the Lordes word, what is? Fourthly, If the difference were not in thinges wherein they are occupied, but in the labour aboue others, or the slouth­full labouring of others, this difference should be none at all, seeing the Apostle in other places giueth watchfulnesse, which is more then labour, for it is a Heb. 13. 17. continuaunce of labour, with great re­gard, not onely in preaching, but other­wise for their soules health. Yea, he gi­ueth this very word, Copiōtes, which labor, to all that are ouer them in the Lord, and 1. Thes. 5. admonish them, which they must reuerence and acknowledge. Lastly, their distinction and interpretation is cleane destitute of conference of Scriptures, which are not wont to giue double honor to any but to those which are painfull, & which labor in their worke: but ours haue moste ma­nifest witnes out of other places, as shall [Page 127] appeare by the other reasons following.

1 If the Apostle Rom. 12. setting 2. Reason. downe y ^• ordinary members of Christs Church, which differ in their proper action, doe set downe the Elder to be ouer the people with diligence, and not to be occupied in the ministery of the Worde, eyther by exhortation or doctrine, but to admonish them and rule 1. Thes. 5. them: then our assertions must needes be certain:

2 But the first is manifest. Rom. 12. 6. 7. &c.

3 Therefore this hath beene ordained by the Apostles.

1 If the Apostle say in the 1. cor. 12. 3. Reason. that besides the Ministers of y ^• Word, God hath set in his Church, Gouer­nours, then our Position is true:

2 But he sayth, God hath set first Apo­stles, Thirdlye, Teachers, Gouer­nors. &c:

3 Wherefore our Doctrine is not vn­certaine, but the liuely trueth of God his Worde.

Unto these two they doe obiecte, that by these, Magistrates are meant, [Page 128] but that is plainelye confuted by these reasons oute of the Text. First, be­cause the Apostle speaketh of them as of Church-Officers, and which were Rom. 12. 6. 1. Cor. 12. 13. 14. 27. then the members of Christes bodye, which then theire Magistrates were not. Secondlye, he speaketh of them as of such giftes as came then newly by preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles, and such as they should then with zeale followe after. Rom. 12. 6. 1. Cor. 12. 31. Which the Apostles would neyther say nor exhort them to doe concerning the Magistrates office, for they neuer were so Annabaptistical, as to exhorte theire churches to be zealous, to become Magi­strates. Thirdly, the Apostle doth after speake of the Magistrates and their du­tie, and of the churches duetye to them. Rom. 13. Lastly, the Gouernours wee speake of, in their gouerment are placed as farre vnder the Pastors and Teach­ers, as they are vnder the Apostles and Prophetes, which if they dare say it of y ^• Magistrates they are them-selues be­come plaine Annabaptists, and do cleane ouerthrow the most rightfull soueraign­tie [Page 129] of Princes ouer all persons and cau­ses, as well Ciuill as Ecclesiasticall. A fourth reason is, seeing oure Sauiour Christ, in setting downe the Ecclesiasti­call Presbytery, speaketh according to the Jewes, for otherwise the Apostles could not haue vnderstood him, when he sayde, tell the congregation or Churche, which was the title then giuen vnto the 1. Cor. 13. 2. 9 Beza on this place. Ecclesiasticall Senate, and his wordes of hauing as a Publican and Heathen, doth manifestly prooue he ment to speak according to their custome: It must needes be that hee did according to the places afore brought, ordayne a Presby­tery of Pastors, Teachers, and Elders, Marke. 15. 1. Luke. 22. 16. like vnto theirs of Priestes, Scribes, or Teachers of the Law, and their Elders which gouerned onely.

In y ^• fift place, y ^• precept of S. James, which willeth them to sende for the El­ders of the Church, when they be weak, Iames 5. therby plainly declaring, that y ^• Church ought not onely to haue a Pastor and a Doctor, whose cheefe attendance must be 1. Tim. 4. on reading, exhortation and doctrine: But also many who ought alwayes to bee [Page 130] ready at the instant calling of diuers and many at once, that none in y ^• neces­sary worke bee neglected: it followeth thereby, that beside them, there ought to be such other elders, as may admonish the vnruly, comfort the weak minded, & patient 1. Thes. 5. towards all. Lastly, all those places which say, Elders were ordayned Churche by Actes. 14. Church, that an accusation must not be taken against them vnder two witnes­ses 1. Tim. 5. and such like, doe establish these; for seeing the wordes are generall to both, as haue bene prooued before, and no cir­cumstance doth restraine them: nay, the circumstances vphold y ^• general because in the first place, Lukes purpose is to de­clare howe the Apostles broughte the Churches to a perfect and full order of Church-gouernment; and in the other, the Apostle had spoken immediately be­fore of both sorts. Wherfore vnlesse they will ouerthrowe all certayne sense of these places, and that notable rule of interpretation, that the wordes and sense of places, are not to be restrained but vpon repugnance of places, or playn circumstaunces of Text, they must here [Page 131] vnderstande both sortes of Elders. And thus much out of the Scriptures: nowe out of the Fathers. IGNATIVS AD TRVLL. There is no Churche which can stande without her Eldershippe Presbiteri­on Kai sy­nedrion. or Councell. Tertull. Apoll. Cap. 39. If there bee anye that hath committed such a fault, that hee bee put away from the partaking of the Praiers of the Church, and from all holy affayres or matters: there bee presidents, certain of the most approued aun­cientes and Elders. Theophilact. on the place of Mat. interpreteth tell the Church, tell the Gouernours thereof. Ambrose 1. Timoth. 5. Complayneth that the Teachers and Ministers of the Word, suf­fered this to weare out of the Church, or ra­ther of pride, whilste they onely would seeme to doe somwhat. Nowe all knowe that the Elders, which they called Sacer­dotes, Priestes, were not worne out of vse, therefore hee may meane this, and this sheweth what the Fathers meant. And CIPRIAN confirmeth that as manifestlye, that it remayned in his time: where (he sayth) Lib. 4. Epi. 22▪ whē either examining whether al things a­greed [Page 132] to them which should be in those, who were prepared for the Ecclesiasticall functi­on. We gaue it to Optatus, we with the El­ders, Clerum. Doctors, and readers, ordain him Tea­cher of those which heare. Which sheweth there were Elders for Gouernment, which were not occupied in any publike diuine seruice, distinguished not onelye from the Preachers but Readers. Ierom also saith, The Christian Church also hath her Eldership. Ier. 2. lib. in Isa. Which when he meneth it of such as the Jewes had, it is plain hee meaneth those which we doe, as may appeare by his wordes of the Jewes Elders, Ad Galas. quest. de­cim. They chose (saith he) of the wisest of their company for gouernors: which shoulde aswell admonish those that had any corporall pollution to abstaine from the assemblies, as to reprooue the breakers of the Sabboth.

A reply to the variable collections fol­lowing, against the Disci­pline.

HItherto we haue had whatsoeuer force he coulde make against the [Page 133] seuerall pointes of Church-gouernment handled before. Now, because he thoght the stenche of the former dung was not strong ynough, to ouercome the sweete sauour which the Worde casteth vppon the Discipline; hee hath tumbled toge­ther (as hee thinketh) a great many di­uersities and contrarieties, drawn from the writinges of those, which seeke the Church-discipline: whereby he woulde faine fasten vppon it, that it is not to bee yeelded vnto, because the Authors are Page. 191 not At any accorde or resolution a­mongst themselues, nor yet with o­ther learned men: Also vppon hie olde song, that these matters are in the liber­ty of the Church, it is a very nice and a dangerous scrupulosity, rather then to vse that aright, which hath beene once abused, that a man shoulde goe aboute to deuise, and to laye oute new plat-formes in Church-matters, Page. 191 in which of necessitie such difficulties will daylye arise, that cannot by anye 192 reache of mans wit bee forecast, and will breede not only a continuall toil, but also infinite daungerous innona­tions, [Page 134] both in the Church and com­mon-wealth. Concerning which slaun­derous dealing of his, I will first gene­rally speake of it, and then make aun­swere to his seuerall collections, adding vnto euery one of his, open contradicti­ons & inconueniences of their side, not only drawn from the diuersitie of mens iudgement, which in the best thinges are through humane infirmity, at oddes; but such as shew the cheefe defendors to bee at warre with them selues, in the points which they mayntayn, & with the holy doctrin which they must needs con­fesse. Now may it please the Reader, in the first place to consider, what iniu­tye this man doth, not onelye to the Discipline, but also to our holy Reli­gion in this manner of dealing. For by this reasoning of his, it shall come to passe that the Religion when it was first preached by the Apostles, be­cause it was ioyned with contrarieties and strifes, as of those of the Circumci­sion Act 11. & 15 Galat. 4. with the rest, and sometimes with bitternesse and difference betweene the Ministers, whilste one woulde haue one [Page 135] that had forsaken the worke go with them another woulde not: sometimes tu­multes and disorders following the same; it might well haue beene refu­sed and east away: seeing the Profes­sors were at variance, contended, and many inconueniences (in the reason of man) followed their preaching. By this meanes, the whole religion (which is in truth maintained of vs, and of our bre­thren whom now they call Lutherans, as an vncertain and vngrounded religi­on, because of contrariety between vs in the matter of the Sacrament, of the vbi­quiti & other points) may be reiected of y ^e papists, and their reason must be held as good, because they haue as learnedly and truly gathered our diuersities betweene our selues, inconueniences following vppon our Doctrine, as this man hath doone in the matter of Ecclesiasticall Discipline. Next vnto this fowle iniury done vnto religion, his iniury done vnto so many worthy lerned men, which haue so well deserued of the Church of God: nay, his inuiry done vnto all the refor­med Churches, in setting them together [Page 136] by the eares, in slaundering them to like of, vphold and maintain, such a gouern­ment as hath no witnesse of the Scrip­tures or ancient times, thogh they main tayne it by both) such as bringeth with Confirma­tion de la discipline ecclesiasti­que. it, not onely a maze and labarinth vnto all common-weales, but which is at flat ennemity with Princes, ouerthroweth their gouernment in Ecclesiastical cau­ses, and by sudden alteration, turneth e­uery thing vpsie-downe. Which reproch though it be so apparaunt, as his owne conscience smote him with the gylce of it, so as he would fayne auoyd the shame of it by colourable protestation, and Page. 191. that before God, not to derogate from any tollerable order established in these externall matters, yet he can­not chuse but charge them, that they make Princes raunge with the rest of 204. their Seniours and Church-gouer­nours, and that they debar princes of that right of gouernment in matters and ouer persons Eeclesiastical, which the word of God, & al the examples of godly kings of Iudae doe aford vn­to vs. The falsehoode of which is not [Page 137] onely manyfest by this witnes of haste, as good as a thousand agaynst him: but also by the testimonye which so manye worthy wryters, nay Princes and Ma­gistrates in their practise and confessi­ons haue giuen to the same. Now, when the Christian Reader hath considered of this iniurye donne vnto GOD and his Church, to vnderstande also, firste that these are but Rapsodies gathered at lea­sure, boasted of & cast in the teth of some long since, such as had other-wyse been vttered ere this, but that no market would serue so well this. Secondly, that although He do as Sanballet, send vs Nehem. 6. 6. ver. 7. 8. 9. in wryting, worde, that we woulde builde vp the wall of Ierusalem, and make our selues kinges, when these thinges come to passe: and that we set vp Prophetes which may preach of vs at Ierusalem, there is a King at Iuda, euery Pastor will be Pope: yea, and aboue the Prince in his Presbytery: Yet with good Nehemias we can truely aunswere, There is none of these thinges done, but thou dost inuent them in thine hart, and that all this is but to cast a feare vnto vs: for they say their handes shall be weake from this [Page 138] worke that they perfect it not. And there­fore that our remedy is, seeing we vse no meanes but by supplication, but by manyfestation of the truth, and seeke for nothing but Discipline, which by the booke of ordination we promise to fur­ther according to our power, euē to pray with the sayde Neh. Confirme (O God) our hands. The first contradiction (interla­sed with a lie, that they make him An­tichrist, Page. 193 which refuseth the Presbyte­ry.) is y ^• we vrge this as perpetual out of the place of Timothy, which Caluin doth referre to his ministery. which is no con­tradiction, seeing if it be referred to his office, yet it being a peece of Timothies office, to procure that the thinges which he had learned of Paule, shoulde be kept according to their nature and difference perpetually in the Church, it sufficient­ly prooueth the matter in hande, other­wise how Could he keepe it vntill the com­ming 2. Tim. 2. of Christ? Like to that is, the alle­gation out of the French discipline, that those articles which were there contay­ned touching discipline, are not so set­led amongst vs, but that the vnity (he [Page 139] should say) vtility of the church so re­quiring, they may be chaunged. which I saye, is a meere cauill, for they speak not, nor meane not it of the substance of discipline contained in y ^• word, but their maner of setting it downe according to the circumstaunces of their time, as is plaine by Their title which calleth it Primier proiect. but the firste cast, brought of the sub­stance of it, as it is contayned in the Scrip­tures of the Apostles: Which substaunce, they were not so mad to change, though they iudged they might alter thē in ma­ny points of circūstances. For these sily contradictions, let him take these mon­strous ones proceding from this, y ^• they wil not acknowledge the perfection of y ^• scriptures cōcerning discipline. One nū ­bring vp as a circumstance to come clo­thed or naked to the supper of the Lord, saith of those circūstances, None of these D. Whit. booke. Page. 24. page. 25. circumstances are commauded in the Scrip­tures, nor can by necessary collectiō be gran­ted, yet he knoweth it doth necessarily apper­taine to comelines. The next is that the Abstractor saith, the Ministers ought not to Page-194 wrest any thing into the gouernment of the [Page 140] church, without due authoritie from the ma­gistrate, which he would haue contrary to that of the admonition & M. Cartwright, that our life must not be deare, as thogh we can not by suffering (if need were, for so the condition is put) aforde, that, without doing any thing which hath not due authority from the Magistrate. His mingling of our sentence with Brownes, Page. 214. is but a malitious proceeding: Seeing him-selfe testifieth after, that wee doe more then mislyke his doinges and wri­tinges in respect of such proceedinges. Like to this, is that he alleadgeth out of Iunius, that if the Prince doe hinder the building of the Church, the people may by force of armes resist him. Which as it is not in the Page which he noteth, nor in all his booke of Discipline: so how malitious a slander it is brought vp, v­pon so worthy a seruaunt of God, maye appeare by his whole treatise of the ci­uill. Magistrat, Lib. 3. cap. 5. Where ha­uing shewed how the Magistrate can­not alter the substantiall poyntes of Discipline, and handled that question to one obiecting, What shall the Church [Page 141] doe if it be (by the Magistrates authoritye, commaundement, threatning, and vio­lence) compelled. Hee aunsweareth, If the Magistrate ordayne any thing contrarie to God his worde, that the Ministers shoulde plainly and modestly declare with Paule, that they can do nothing against, but for the truth. But if the thinges be not contrarye to the truth and necessitie, that the Churches Page. 207. are bound rather patiently to beare it, then to bring the holy ordinaunce of God, their body, and the common peace into daunger. Concerning excommunication, shall be spoken after. The booke he nameth of obedience I haue not. The other mat­ter out of the book deiure Magistratum, as not pertayning to vs, I purpose not to meddle with, especially considering he handleth it more like a Lawyer then otherwise. But after he hath allead­ged testimonies to prooue that, Which none but Papistes and Annabaptistes Page. 196. will deny, that it is traiterous to teach the people that they shoulde owe no seruice to euil kinges, he addeth, least this long treatise shoulde seeme alto­geather impertinent, that he could not [Page 142] chuse but oppose to the fanaticall Page. 197. spirites and traiterous allegations, both of these dangerous innouators, & of the rebellious Papistes. But alas, why are we poore Ministers (as he cal­leth vs before, whom a man of meane e­state wil not regard) so dangerous? He answereth, because we would haue our soueraignes kingdome to be holden at the chiefe inferior magistrates, the people or Presbyteries deuotion. Oh heauen, O earth, O Lorde our God, the searcher of the secreats of all hearts, the author of the holy discipline we seek, re­ueale (we besech thee) our horrible trea­son: bring vpon vs & our children for e­uer vtter cōfusion in this life, & in y ^• life to come, if this wickednes be either in­tended, thought vpon, or be likely to fol­low vpon the discipline which we seeke, or vpon our desire of the same. If you, O you holy fathers, and ministers of God, which haue writetn for, defended, mayn­tained, & with great danger attained vn­to this, may not cleare our cause by y ^• vn fained fidelitye which you haue shewed to christian Princes: yet let your wise­dome [Page 143] & experience, Oh you Princes and Magistrates, which haue receiued it, ho­nored it, tried it, beare witnesse vnto the innocēcie of this cause. Shal that which hath bin a friend to magistrates, when they were enemies to it, be enemies to Magistrats, when they should be friends vnto it: Shal that which D. Whitgift himself confesseth (namely, That such Se­niors D. Whit▪ last booke. 161. were, but long ago worne out of vse. For which he alleadgeth, the sentence of Ambrose before alleadged) shal, that I say, called for of that holye man, become traiterous & pernitious to the state? Can the office of an Archbishop in the second place of the land, doing al that alone, and more in Church-matters then the seni­ours, hauing with it ciuil power and au­thority be free from this suspition: and cannot Ministers and Elders of base ac­count in the world, medling onely as the Apostles, with spirituall matters & that according to the word of God, be void of al surmize of such vilanous practise: can their counsels be accounted safe, where none come but themselues, whō they wil & who are deuoted to their honor & king­dome [Page 144] ecclesiasticall? And shal the mini­sters consultations be so fit for such prac­tises where so many Elders (as he sayth lay men) of all degrees may be present, where the Magistrates may haue both their eyes & their eares? Whose decrees in al matters of greatest waight, of Ex­cōmunication, Election, Abdication, en­ding of common controuersies, must come vnder the conscience of all men: yea, whose whole acts and counsels may easily be seene, by the Magistrate, who may force them to a new course, if they doe any thing preiudiciall to the estate? The good king Iehoshaphat, according to the Word of God, and the example of his father Dauid, ordeined besides the 1. Chron. 27 30. Priests and Leuites in all Cities, the cheefe of Families for the iudgementes of the Lord, and for the matters of God be­sides 2. Chro. 19. 8. 11. others appoynted for ciuill matters, called the kings matters. Now, shall wee thinke, that hee coulde not see into the matters of a kingdome and the safety thereof, aswell as this man? The Prin­ces of Iuda at their returne, when their state was subiect vnto so many dangers, [Page 145] when their Prophets conspired against Hesr. 10. 8. them, yet vphelde the Ecclesiasticall Pres­bytery to threaten excommunication and seperation from Gods people, to the obsti­nate sinners, as wel they thē-selues did confiscation of goodes and ciuill punish­ment: neither were they euer iealous o­uer their estate. Wherefore, seeing we haue such a cloude of witnesses of these tymes and of former, both vnder the law and vnder the Gospel, we need not feare but their lying & irōforhead in charging vs with such traiterous opinions, shalbe manifest to all, and shall tourne vppon their owne heades. For manifestation whereof; let the Magistrates consider what is written of them highly deroga­torie vnto their estate and freedome, which they make them beleue that they maintaine. First they say the forme and maner of Church gouernment may be alte­red Page. 192. [...]. 3 [...]9. by the Magistrate▪ then they say the externall gouernment of the Church vnder a Christian Magistrate must be according to the forme of gouernment used in the common-wealth. Which is flat contrary to that, that the Christian Magistrate [Page 146] may alter at their good pleasure. Which also driueth the Queenes moste excel­lent maiesty, eyther to part her Crowne with some other, or else muste make one Archbishop not only of byshops, but also ouer Archb. y ^• in the Church there maye be a Monark, as wel as in the common­wealth. Againe, when they say y ^• Archb. is contayned vnder S. Paules Bishop, they leaue it not in the Magistrates po­wer to take away his iurisdiction, how daungerous so euer it be to her estate. Agayne, let them consider into what a low place they bring the Magistrate in­to, in the Church, when expounding the place of the Corinthes of him, they make D. Whit. last. b. de­uis. 6. 7. page, 631. him go after the teacher, & therfore much more after the Archbi. Hauing therfore noted these their open contradictions & most absurd opinions, preiudicial indeed to her maiesties authority: let vs ere we passe from this general, (what the forme of ecclesiastical gouernment is) consider once againe of his assertion, and see whe­ther it bewray not manifest ignorance, containe not cōtradiction & repugnance in it selfe, and be not highly derogatory [Page 147] to Christ & his scriptures. His words are these pag. 192. Now as concerning the inward gouernment of the Church of Christ by his spirite, God working in his children, by the Ministers of his writtē reuealed word: & also touching the essential poynts of the outwarde policy & gouernment of the church, consisting in the true teaching of the word of God, in the due administrati­on of sacraments according to christs holy institution, in the aduancement & furthering of vertue, with the bea­ting downe of sinne and impiety, and in keeking the Church in a quiet vni­ty and good order, there is no diffe­rence of opinion amongst vs. And a little after, we affirm that no such pre­cise & exact forme of external gouer­ment of the Church by discipline, as they depaint it out, is so much as by a­ny exāple recōmended vnto vs in scripture: but much lesse commanded, as a continuall platforme for euer to be followed. In which assertion omitting the nakednes of it, armed with no proofe out of the scripture or any good reason, [Page 148] let vs see how it sheweth such grosse ig­noraunce as is not to be lucked for in a man of his gifts, for it deleareth that he can not distinguish betweene the cause, instrument and meanes of a thing, and the thing it selfe, betweene gouernment and the essentiall partes of gouernment and the fruits of it. For gouerment Ec­clesiasticall, that is, the spirituall admi­nistration of Christ by the order, and in­struments of his Church which he hath ordayned, is a different thing from the truth of it, which is the aduancement of vertue, the beating downe and sup­pressing of sinne and impietie, the keeping of the Church in a vnity and quiet order: which beeing the effect of Christes kingdome and his gouerne­ment, Esa. 31. 1. 2. 3 hee maketh them the essentiall partes of it. So that he hath not lear­ned yet to put a difference Betweene the kingdome of God, and Gods righteousnesse established by it, Nor betweene the two Math. 7. petitions of the Lordes prayer, that his kingdomr may come, and the fruite of this, That his will may be done in earth as in heauen. Againe, he graunteth the es­sentiall [Page 149] partes of Christes kingdome▪ and outwarde policie of the Church, but he denyeth any exact forme, as though there can be essentiall poy [...]tes of out­warde gouernment perpetuall, and yet they shal haue no perpetuall forme. Can there be an outwarde essentiall thing without a forme? Or can the essence be perpetuall and changeable, and the form variable and mutable: Can there be an immutable outward gouernment with­out immutable outward callinges, offi­ces and workes: This is to giue a man without members, a skinne for a bodye without bones and fleshe. Lastly, how iniurious is this vnto Christ? he wil ac­knowledge the benefit must be had, but he will not acknowledge the hand wher­by it is giuen. Christ is wise inough, still to administer and rule, and that he will gyue him leaue to doe. But y ^• he is wyse inough to doe it by his owne 1. Cor. 12. 2. 4. &c. meanes, that hee being The onelye Lorde should appoynt the diuers admini­strations of his Church alwayes, y ^• his spirite Shoulde minister fully sufficient diuersitie of giftes: that one God shoulde [Page 150] worke the sufficient diuers faculties al­wayes, That is vntollerable, false, sedi­tious, hurtfull to the estate. He can al­low the people shoulde bee taught, and exhorted, and haue the Sacramentes: but whether by Readers or by Tea­chers, by reading Homilyes, or by Pa­stours, Eph. 4. 11. Rom. 12. 6. 7. by men or women, God his word doth not define; the people must be ru­led, but whether by Gouernours ap­poynted by Christ, or by men: He must 1. Cor. 12. relieue his pore with almesse, but whe­ther by his Deacons or others: that he muste seperate betwene the cleane, Actes. 6. and vncleane cast out the wicked, but whether by his Church and Eldership Mat. 18. or some other, muste by no meanes be determined. As if one should say, it is essentiall and perpetuall, that we haue our enteraunce into Christe and his Church, our growing and nourishing in the same sealed vp perpetually, but that it shall be done onelye by Baptisme and the Lordes Supper, and not also by confirmation that, maye not bee graunted. Christ was wyse inough, and willing inough to ordayne the effects, [Page 151] but not the instrumentes. If he saye he commaunded them saying, Baptize, doe this: So we say he commanded the other saying, I haue set Teachers, Gouer­nours, 1. Cor. 12. Rom. 12. 6. Mat. 18. saying, let the Doctor abide in Tea­ching, the Pastour in exhortation, the El­der in ruling, the Deacon in distributing, ver. 7. 7. 8. the Church euen the Eldership to be tolde and to excommunicate. Lastly, it is as if one should say, I can wel allow her most excellent maiesty for her excellent wise­dome, to see the commonwealth admini­stred, iustice executed, matters rightly pleaded, & determined: but y ^• this shalbe don by her most honorable coūsel, by her chief iustices, by her iustices of peace, by her Shiriefes and Balifes, by her Sergeants at the lawe, that I can not like or allow of. As for y ^• place of Tertu­lian, it is plaine, he meaneth it of the dis­cipline in the course of life, which is chā ­geable, as may appeare by the testime­nies alledged in the first point. His next contradiction is concerning y ^• means of liuing, that y ^• French church wold haue, the rentes and reuenewes deliuered to the Deacons, so the minister receiue his stipend, [Page 152] but the booke of Discipline, T. C. and the Admonition speaketh earnestly againste those who gape after Church-liuings and turne it to their purses and pleasure, as Page. 197 Page. 198 though these could not stande together, that they shoulde bee deliuered to the Churche onely, and turned to holy vse, & that it shoulde bee administred by the Deacons: or as though the playnesse of the one in reproouing an abuse, bee con­trary to the good order taken by the o­ther. Howsoeuer it be, so the Christian Magistrate see the poore cared for by the Deacons, and that they who preach the Gospell liue of the Gospell, and that the 1. Corin. 9. Prouerb. 4. Galath. 6. Lord be thus honoured with our substance, we acknowledge he doth his duety towardes the Church: But if these want and the thinges giuen to that vse, bee turned to the priuate commodity of some, there is a defect in that behalfe.

But nowe this valiant champion will ouerthrowe the Eldership by such wea­pons as followe, for T. C. Doth teach it from the Iewish Synedrion and out of the Talmud, which according to Bonauentur and Danaeus handled ciuill thinges: which [Page 153] our presbytery may not doe. To which I aunswere that T. C. doth not fet it from y ^e Talmude, but from the word of God, as his whole disputation doth shew in that pointe: onely hee sheweth that this presbytery hath beene continued vnder the Lawe and vnder the Gospell, which is true and agreeed vppon by all three which he speaketh of. It is also as fals y ^t Bonauenture speaketh so of the Ecclesia­sticall. Senate by it selfe, for that which Boneuen. cap. 18. fine. Da­naeus. c. 10. lib, 2. Isag. 2. part. he noted is of the ciuill and politike sy­nedrion, Cap. 13. but hee maketh after­ward when he handleth the Ecclesiasti­cal pollicy of that time besides the priest and besides the Teachers in euery Si­nagogue Senetors, which inquired of theire manners: which is manifeste by Exod. 4. 29. Exod. 17. 5. 2. King. cap. 6. 32. Ier. 19. 1. Ezech. 8. 1. and Neh. 8. 5. Where are Elders occupied in Eccle­siasticall matters, assistant to the Pro­phets and teaching Leuites, and yet di­stinguished from them, so as they med­led not with the Word. Danaeus in deede sayth they medled somtimes w ^t ciuil ad­ministrations which ours do not, which [Page 154] thing yet maketh no contradiction to vs, seeing we say with him, that to ours is giuen by Christ Ecclesiastical authority only. But the truth is, y ^t they were then plainly distinguished, some being for the 1. Chr. 27. 30 2. Chron. 19. 8. 11. matters of God, and some for ciuill causes, the matters of the king. Now, the cause of this which Danaeus speaketh of was, that in waighty matters both came together, because the politike lawes of the Jewes were for the moste part defined and set downe in the Worde of God, they, the Priest, Leuites, and Ecclesiasticall El­ders, were there to pronounce the sen­tence Ecclesiastically: that is, to pro­nounce y ^e sense of Gods word in y ^t cause: the Princes, cheefe of the people, and ci­uil Senate, were to pronounce Ciuil­ly and iudicially the sentence of death, or such like according to the sense of the Scriptures. Secondly by the causes, that when the Ecclesiasticall Senate commeth to the Ciuill, the matters are thus mixt, as Jeremy 26. 16. But when the matter is Ciuil meerely, and no Question of the sense of the Scrip­tures, then it is of Magistrates onely: [Page 155] as 1. chro. 28. 1. 1. chro. 13. 1. Or when the matters were meerely Ecclesiasti­call, then was the Ecclesiasticall Se­nate onely brought together, as in con­sultatiō. 2. king. 6. 32. As in matters to be done in the congregation. Act. 13. 15. For Excommunication John. 9. 22. 10. 40. For interpretation, the Priests and Leuites only, Math. 24. And lastly by this, that Peter being before both the Senates Ecclesiasticall and Ciuil, doth plainly distinguish them, calling y ^e one Archontes tou laou. Presbyte­roi. the cheefe or rulers of Israel, the other the Elders of Israel. Wherefore this proueth not that they did exercize ciuill authori­ty: and although our lawes political, are not in this respect like vnto the Jewes, yet if the Magistrate will call the El­dership to declare the will of God, or pronounce duely an Ecclesiasticall sen­tence, when hee will pronounce a Ci­uill, it may well be done without the confusion he speaketh of. The next that he saith out of Caluine, y ^e Presbitries of y ^e Jews was from men, not frō heauen is fals: for Caluin saith only, since the captiuity Dilecto. it was chosen for the censure of manners, [Page 156] but he sayth also in that place that that Dilecto. regiment was lawfull and allowed of God, and that Christ did worthily prayse the or­der deliuered of the fathers, and that which was kept vnder the law Christ sent vnto vs. Now the Fathers vnder the law, did not any of those thinges and lesse then these, but by God his commaundement, by his 2. Chr. 29. 25 Prophets: yea, this was commanded both that in euery City and that for more dif­ficult causes at Hierusalem such Senate shoulde bee appointed. Deut. 1. 8. 9. &c. The like vntruethe is it that Musculus vnderstoode it of the whole Congregation. for euen as D. Whitgift alleadged him, pag. 633. He sayth, It was by Seniors in Ecclesiasticall assemblie. As vntrue is the other y ^• Caluine sayth, Neyther in Christes time, nor 22. yeares after, this Christian El­dership was established: for he sayth in that place, Where Christe a little after erected his Church, the corruption beeing taken a­way, he did restore the pure vse of Excom­munication: And that there is no doubt but this order of discipline, which flourished vn­der the kingdome of Christ, succeeded into the place of that old, and it is playn by the [Page 157] Scripture as soone as there was an or­dinary set Congregation, there were El­ders which ioined with the Apostles in Church-gouernment. Act. 12. 30. Actes. 15. 6. Acts. 21. 18. Neither must they by example of the Jewes haue but one for a Nation only, seeing it hath bene shew­ed, such were in euery City and Syna­gogue, Mark. 5. 22. Acts. 13. 15. Act. 18. 8. 17. wheras if we should square it af­ter this his patterne, we should haue one only for y ^• whol Church. That he saith y ^• Apostles wold not haue executed the deacons office al Christs time, He bab­leth fables which he knowth not, for ther office in Christs time was only to preach and baptize in Iudaea, and to be witnesses of Marke. 3 14. Ioh 4. 2. 28. Act. 1. 21. 22. Christs life, doctrine, death, resurrection and ascention: That which they did at Hie­rusalem, was but to take care for y ^• pore, till they had fit persons and occasion to establish the order which Christe ordai­ned: neyther did they it only because they were withdrawn (which if they were, be­ing so many, how much more shall Mini­sters and Byshops bee, if they looke to these and to ciuil affayres also) but also Ar [...]ston. because it was not acceptable (meaning [Page 158] to God) thus to doe, when they had by God his blessing both suche persons, place and time as he required. Al the rest of his some of words that neither father, Councel, nor Scripture hath left in memory where, when or by whom it was first erected & put in practize, is worse then nothing. For it was done of the Apostles at Je­rusalem, long before the councell, as is proued out of Act. 12. 30. But this shew­eth their giddinesse, y ^• say somtime, y ^• it hath no testimony, either of scripture or antiquity, and yet again, confesse and al­leadge D. Whit­gifts s. book page. 651. Ambrose, to proue that Seniors haue beene, and that they were extinguished be­fore Ambrose his time, which they will not say of Elders which minister the Word and Sacramentes, for they were not extinguished before Ambrose his time neither yet are. Also that they say the Byshops differ, and are aboue other ministers, for pollicy and order only, and Ibid. Page. 385. yet make them differ in the Ministery of grace as in the sentence of Exco [...]u­cation, of Absolution, (and according to their Doctrine) of ministring strength against temptations by confirmation: [Page 159] For these they make proper to the By­shop and not common to euery minister, and notwithstanding the Minister must read the Excommunication: yet y ^• word, sentence and authority doth come from the Byshop, and for Absolution it is y­nough to goe to him or his Delegate. The nexte contraryetyes agree like friends: for, both all Is not expressed in the Scripture as the booke of Disci­pline sayth, and yet all may be proo­ued by direct Scripture, Seeing what­soeuer is necessarily collected thence, (though it be not expressed) is directlye prooued. Also the next is of as little va­lue, for both Ministers and Preachers, as Caluine sayth, may be vnderstood, and also gouerning Elders, as Beza noteth. Beza on that place. The next is an open lye, for Beza sayth on that place of Tim. 5. 17. Therefore there were two sortes of Elders, When Duplices. one sort should attend on gouernment, the o­ther on the Word & prayer. Of such force is the next, for the booke of Discipline agreeth in iudgment with M. Cartwight, that in the place of the 1. Tim. 3. vnder Deacous are comprehended both those, [Page 160] properly so called, and the Elders. For M. Cartwright referreth him self to that obseruation. Pag. 54. and prooueth it because the qualities there set downe S. rep. S. part. are common to bothe, and there are none touched proper to either, and the Word Deacons is taken in diuers pla­ces for all those Ministers which are not occupyed in the Worde as Rom. 12. 6. 1. Pet. 4. 11. The next is like to that of the 14. of the Act, and so to be answe­red. Also one may gather The Eldership out of the. 1. Cor. 12 (For of the 14. none doth) and out of the other places both, vnles he be so learned in diuinity y ^t he thinke diuers places cānot proue one thing. His other cauil is not worth a rush: for in one respect Deacons signifying somtime all Ministries not occupyed in the Worde, may be a Genus or generall to Elders and Deacons so called. Also the name Bishop beeing generally giuen of their work of watching or our-seeing Act. 20. vnto Elders, may be commō both to ministers and gouerning Elders, which disagreeth not with this that Elders be teaching and vnteaching. It is true [Page 161] also which is obserued by the booke of Discipline, that the name of Elders is not giuen to those Deacons which are distributers, and his written booke may be ouer-seene in so smal a thing as that. And so hauing seene his watr [...]sh obiecti­ons let vs see howe his side, being drunk with the thirst of honour, doe contrary them selues in one and the same point. For when the place of the Ephesians is broght against an Arrchb. as numbring vp all the Ministries of the Word, & yet leauing out that, the aunswere is, it is not D. Whitg. s. booke. Page. 309. perfect, for Deacons are left out: and in the next page, that he speaketh onely of the ministers of the word in the place of the E­phesians. And again in the place of the 1. Ibid. Cor. [...]2. The Apostle leaueth out Euan­gellūs, and yet in the next page, out of doubt the diuision of the Apostle there is per­fect, And yet again. pag. 317. It is perfect. Heere note that to saye, It is not perfect, it is perfect, it is not perfect, of one and the same place, and in the same respect are euidently contrarie. There is no contradiction betweene this which is Page. 203. sayd, that Byshops liuings, &c, be turned [Page 162] to maintain the ministery, and yet that noble men being Elders haue no main­tenaunce of the Church, I can finde no such thing in the sixt Art. of French dis­cipline, & if there were, their meaning is, y ^t they may not exercize any dominiō or cheefedome ouer the Deacons. Nei­ther is it any disorder if in an Ecclesia­sticall Senate and in the church, the mi­nister be preferred before his Lorde, to conceiue prayer, to propound matters: For it is not absurd for one to be superi­our and inferiour in diuers respectes: the Father inferioure to the Sonne, which is aboue him in deliuering the Worde. The first place out of Simler is not greatly materiall, if they choose some elder to moderate, though it be­long vnto the Pastour, yet it prooueth not, but that hee is Superiour in o­pening the Worde vnto them in chose matters which are debated. The next though it bee a geeate blemishe and mayme, not to haue an Ecclesiasticall Presoyterye: yet it inforceth no con­tradiction, seeing that can-not bee the Presbyterye spoken of in the scrip­ture, [Page 163] where by his owne interpretati­on ministers are vnderstoode. His con­clusion which hee woulde inferre out of the Discipline of Fraunce, that be­cause Magistrates are of the consisto­rie, and to be directed by the Pastour, therefore they woulde raunge Princes with their Seniours, is diuersly vayne. For firste it is no reason, seeing the Prince may bee subiect to the Mini­stery of the Pastor and Elders, and yet neuer Subiect or inferiour to theire persons. Secondlye, it is manifest by their conditions, that they meant not the supreame Magistrates when they say: If one shall not hinder the exercise of the other, Which must needes bee in Princes, considering theire multitude of affayres. In the Booke of the Page. 205. 206. Souldier of Barwicke, If their bee any vnreuerent speache, we allowe it not: yet if anye Prince will doe anye thing without Gods warrant in Church-mat­ters, It must not bee obeyed, otherwise whatsoeuer is beyonde this, wee con­demn as vndiscreete. In the next, that he mighte make the Discipline enemye [Page 164] to Princes, hee turneth vp againe that which sober men long agoe haue left and consented vnto. The first is, that we wold haue the Ecclesiasticall Senate to ad­minister Ecclesiastical matters. Would not Jehosephat also haue the Priestes 1 Chro. 19. and Leuits to administer the matters of God? And what hath he brought of our bookes, which is not as fully set down by those reuerent men of God, B. lewell & M. Nowell. Seeing they say, as long as Defense of the Apol. 6. part. Ch. 11. deuis. 11. & 12. Ch. deuis. 4. M. Nowel. tom. 2. part 35. 38. the Ministers bee Godly and learned, it is necessary they shoulde deside these mat­ters: that the Prince is commaunded to haue recourse vnto them in doubtfull matters, that it belongeth to the Byshops of­fice, to decide of such causes: but Christian Princes haue rather to doe with these mat­ters, then ignoraunt and wicked Priestes and that in case of necessitye the Prince ought to prouide for conuenient remedye. As for his slaunder that we agree with the Papistes to giue Christian Prin­ces power of fact, but not of Lawe and authoritye to promote and set forwarde, not to intermeddle in cau­ses Ecclesiasticall. Wee esteeme it [Page 165] no more then a fowle vntrueth, which euery, man of iudgement can conuince For if they haue authority in our iudge­ment by the Worde of GOD, to see to their Ministrye, and to cause them to make such Lawes, as they knowe a­greeable to Gods Worde: to authorize such, and disanull the contrarye: cause them to make good, when they woulde make yll: or orderlye to procure suche as can and will bee present in the ac­tion, and giue their consent if it please them, (all which are giuen by T. C. b. second. p. 167. and by vs all vnto the Magystrate,) then doe wee graunte them no more then power of fact? then to pro­mote matters? And in speakinge a­gaynst vs heerein, dothe hee not direct him selfe agaynste the verye Lawes, and orders of the Churche? Which is, that the Conuocation-house doe make Ecclesiasticall Lawes: and if they bee good, the Queene giueth her royall assent, and then they must be obeyed; if not, then that they are no Lawe? His seconde poynte whereby hee woulde make vs odious, is, that wee thinke [Page 166] the Prince maye bee Subiect to Ex­communication, that is, that hee is a Brother. Deutr. 17. 15. Math. 18. 15. that hee is not without but within the Churche. 1. Corinth. 5. 12. 13. If this be daungerous, why is it printed and al­lowed in the famous writinges of By­shope Iewell: in that the Priest doth his Def. apol. part 6. Page. 720. office, when hee excommunicateth and cut­teth off a deade member from the body: so farre foorth the Prince, bee hee neuer so mighty is inferiour to him: yea, not onely to a Byshoppe, but to a simple Priest? Why is it suffered which Master Nowell hath Tom. 2. fol. 53. written: The Prince ought patiently to a­byde Excommunication at the Byshoppes handes? Why are not the examples of Euseb. lib. 6. Cap. 14. Theod. 5, 18. worthy Emperours rased out of the Hystories, seeing they haue beene sub­iect to this censure? Why did the reue­rend Father, B. of L. reckon vp such examples not long since at Paules Crosse? The next cauill is not worth the aunswere: for they of Fraunce may call whomsoeuer they thinke good, to giue them light in any Question, and therefore much more professours of [Page 167] Diuinity. So is the next, for both they and Bullinger, may make teaching ge­nerally incident to the Pastors office, for so it is common both to Pastour and Doctor; yet to apply his speciall gift and labour that way, maye bee proper to the teacher or Doctor, as is prooued in the treatize of that poynte before. The Booke of Bertram I haue not, neyther is it materiall if hee differ from trueth in some poynt, thorough hu­mane infirmity: For they them selues say, they condemne the errour of those, who saye that Children are damned, D. Whit. b. s. pag, 52 which dye without Baptisme as much as wee, and yet is it written of their side, that wante of Baptisme is a probable sign of reprobation: Whē as we say it is no sign at al of reiectiō. This opponing of y ^• Admonition and Bertram, and y ^e Church of France, is ridiculous. For thogh they say that Ministers, Elders, and Dea­cons, are for Church discipline (whereby discipline they mean y ^e order of y ^e Church Page. 7. 8. generally) yet in the gouernment of the Presbytery they ioyne onely the Elders with the Ministers, and to the Deacons [Page 168] they giue nothing, but the care for the poore and to giue aduise as the French Churches say, is not onely graunted to Deacons, but vnto all, as [...]u [...]re occasion shall serue. Concerning the difference of widowes, T. C. saith. Where the con­ditions fall out, which are set downe in 1. Tim. [...]. there they ought according to that rule to be established. Wherin he a­greeth with Daneus: and the booke of Discipline doth not deny but that where there are such women and causes, they maye, and ought to bee so founde of the Church, and are to serue the Church, in such seruice as they shall put them to, onelye he findeth no one peculier and proper seruice wherevnto they are ty­ed, but are to bee imployed by the Dea­cons, vnder whom they are contayned, and in all this there is no difference worth the speaking of, much lesse con­tradiction. In the next, y ^e question is on­ly of a circumstance how long they shold continue: wherein if Berna differ some­what from vs, what is that vnto the matter in hand? what hurt to the sub­staunce of the cause? The next obiection [Page 169] doth aunswere it selfe, that as they vsed them then in some respects, as the Dea­con, to Catechise, and such like, which they thought the straightes of the Church draue them vnto: [...]o otherwise for their office we do see they do in their confession acknowledge, That the church must he gouerned with the policie, which Harm. confes. Gal. con­fes. page. 53 art. 30 La confir­mation de La Disci­pline eccle­siastique obseruee, es eglises re­formees du Royaulme du Fraunce page. 7. Christ hath ordayned: & that the offices of elders, and Deacons are part of that policie. Also y ^t it is a part of his Gospel, & is confir­med to (be perpetuall to haue such a go­uerment) in their publike writing to y ^• ende. As fond is the next out of Dane­us, which declareth, that although the Churches after the Apostles, chose the Elders and Deacons to be perpetuall: yet it also sayeth there is no such thing defined of in the Scriptures, which pro­ueth, that it is a circumstaunce which may be altered according to the estate of the Church. In the next he quoteth Bucer as repugnaunt to T. C. but na­meth no place where we shall finde it. Daneus doth not contrarie him, but ac­knowledging it the order of God, doth onely shew what was done in smal chur­ches, [Page 170] adioyned to the great and popu­lous, there beeing sufficient persons in the one, which were not at the first in the other, notwithstanding the Apostles or­dayned it Church by Church Actes 14. And euery Church muste haue them to send for, Jam. 5. and the causes of them Neh. 8. 1. Thes. 5. Rom. 12. which are to be assistaunt to the Pastor, to administer the ecclesiastical censures, to watch ouer the people and admonishe them, are a like euery where. Now if the Churches be too little, the bodyes of se­uerall congregations ought so to be or­dred, Rom. 12. 5. 6 7. 1, Co. 12. Esay. 62. 8. as they may haue all the members which Christ hath set, for the perfection and beauty af his body: vpon all the wals of Hierusalem there must be watch-men, and vpon Euery habitation of mount Sy­on, Esay. 4. 5. 6. vppon her meetinges and Congregati­ons, there must be this presence of God, as a cloude by day, and a fire by night: For looke what places they can bring for the perpetuity, and for the right of eue­rye Church for a Pastour: The same or lyke may be brought for the Elder. Whereof it commeth▪ that Ignatius sayde, as he is alleadged before, No [Page 171] Church can stande without her Eldership. And Iustinus made his apologie, where­in this Eldership is mentioned for all Churches. Wherefore, whatsoeuer Da­neus graunt was done for a tyme, till the Churches might conuenientlye bee brought to a conuenient stature, neither beeing too high nor too short, and to be beautifull bodyes, neyther wanting a member, nor hauing one too much, that muste not preiudice the institution of Christ: which Daneus confesseth, When Part. 2. I­sag. lib. 2. c. 10. page. 191. 192. he sayth they must looke to the Church, house by house, and publikely also, to the whole and to the sicke. Of two Consi­stories in a city it may be he hath reade of, but in one particular Church, of two Ecclesiasticall Senates, I will then beleeue it, when he bringeth vs a more certaine direction, then yet hee hath done to finde it: and if they did, seeing the inconueniences (as he sayeth) bring it to the right order: what preiudise is that to the trueth? In the next poynt of counsels, there is no contrarietie betweene the admonition, and the French Churches order: For they [Page 172] say they may definitiuely define causes in a prouintiall Synode, (although I can not find those wordes by his quotation): And the admonition saythe so, except there be a generall counsell, and they will haue it there. For there is no reason if they will order it fitly at hoam, to carry it to a generall counsell. And I pray are these two so contrary? They may ende it, and they may ende it, except they thinke it better to referre it to a generall counsel. In passing from this difference to the next, he setteth peremptorilie, that it is manyfest, that there is no certayne forme of electing Ecclesiasticall officers vsed by the Apostles, but reason he sheweth none whereby it maye appeare: So that if his Doctorship saye it, we muste take it from him as vndoubtedly, as if he had it by reuelation. For confutation of which folly, we may say thus much: That see­ing in the Ministers, examination is to be had, of knowledge, of doctrine, of ripe nesse to expound the Scriptures, and in a worde of aptnes to teach; it is many­fest, that as the gouerning of this action belongeth to the Eldership, and is to be [Page 173] done with publike prayers, that besides Actes. 14. the gouerning Elders there must be mi­nisters, who maye be able throughly to iudge and examine, to conceiue publike prayer, and to deliuer to the Church by doctrine, exhortation, whatsoeuer is ex­pedient in this case. Which thing is euident, not onely by the perpetuall rea­son of it, but also by the constant and vn­chaungeable practise of the Apostles, in the first of the Actes, in the sixth of the Acts, in the 14. in the 1. Tim. 3. of Tit. 1. Onely it is to be noted, that it is not committed to one, no not so much as to 1. Tim. 4. ordayne, much lesse to elect, but the or­dination is by the Eldership. And Ti­mothy could not carry the matter away, but had a charge for his owne part, To keepe him-selfe pure, and not to communi­cate 1. Tim. 5. with other mens sinnes whatsoeuer o­ther Elders did in this case. Now, as this order is certayne and vnuariable, both in the reason and practise of it: so the circumstaunces, whether it shall be by 6. or by 7. Ministers: by a conference only, or by a synode (sauing where it may be, the more the better) is left to the dis­position [Page 174] of the church. Wherefore it is not only without reason, but also sence, & contrary to his professed knowledge, to proclayme warre amongst the Churches for this matter of circumstaunce, when they all haue the substaunce, agreed vp­pon in Gods worde, and doe not tye them-selues or others to the particuler circumstaunces. It is also as absurde, that he setteth downe as a contrarietie to the election of the Elders and peo­ple, that they allowed the Officers cho­sen by the Consistorye, or by voyces of the people, or by one Minister, as thogh that were derogatory to a right order, to ratifie that by good authority, which was at the first imperfectly donne. Yet that is most absurde which he doth ob­tect againste the authour of the Ab­stract, as though he were contrarye to Page. 211. this order, because he woulde haue the people giue their consent, seeing as hath beene shewed these may not only agree, but ought vnseperably to be ioyned to­geather in Church-lections. For if eyther by silence, or otherwyse they sig­nifie their consent, and the election be [Page 175] not made, but sufficient deliberation be giuen them to shew iust causes of their Page. 212. dislyke, or gladly to accept them: It is all one, as hath beene prooued in the treatise to that purpose. In the next obiection he must first prooue, that we dissent before he haue an answere for to haue it done by the Consistorye, and to adioyne a conference are not contrary. The next is answered in the treatise of the election of Church-officers. The next is an vntruth. For the confirmation De la dis. Eccles. sheweth, that the peo­ple giue their consent and approbation, ac­cording to the 14. of the Actes. Page. 233. The next we take but for a poore cauil, grounded (vnlesse hee make it appeare which he speaketh of some which hold it lawfull to picke a quarrel and leaue the ministery) vpon a slaunder. In deed if at one mans pleasure for truthes sake, they be put out, to seeke an honest way to lyue is not vnlawfull, nor contrarye to the decree of the French Churches, that they be chosen to be Ministers their whole life, vnlesse they be discharged lawfully, vn­to which decree all agree. The next of [Page 176] depositions receiueth the same answere which the elections doe: for the authori­ty which electeth, must be that which deposeth, and the Discipline of Fraunce meaneth no otherwise: And of Excom­munication, ther is the like iudgement. The Author of the Abstract can best ex­pound his meaning, and his words bear no such collection as hee gathereth. For in saying the Minister may do it, and that by Lawe in his charge, aswell as the Byshop in his Diocesse: He doth not authorize the Byshoppe to doe it alone, but with due consent to whome it doth appertaine. In the nexte, when hee sheweth who that some bee, which make decision of con­trouersies incident to euery Presbyte­ry, otherwise then if they can with con­tentation agree of the trueth amongst themselues: we will giue his aunswere to it: In the meane time we iudge of it as of the rest: that it is, vntrue. The like of the two other (excepting Brown, for whome he hath his aunswere) and of the next about God-fathers. Concerning the next poynt, the which he sayth of the Churches of Fraunce, that they think it [Page 177] lawfull to baptize without an assembly: I can not beleeue it, vnlesse I haue better direction then the 7. article of their Discipline, in which I can finde no such thing, though I finde some other arti­cles there, which he hath aledged thence: wherefore I feare that it is a fiction. Concerning Holy-dayes, let him firste shew, that the Churches obserue them in maner of a Sabboth, wholly to rest from their labour, and then T. C. with his reasons, or the churches with theirs, must giue place to the truth. The diuer­sity about popish Priestes is aunswered before in the tretise of that matter. The next are but slaunders, to which he gy­ueth no credite by anye testimonye, and are confuted before in the treatise of the Doctor. It is also a manifest vntruth, that T. C. mislyketh wholly That anye are suffered to preach nor hauing a Pasto­rall charge. For he speaketh generally of such as haue no charge, neither Pasto­rall, nor Doctorall. For he would haue both tyed to a certayne place, yea the Elders Preaching in other mens cures or charges, wherevnto men are not law­fully [Page 178] called, wee condemne according to the iudgement of the French Churches neither doth he note any wher we might finde the contrarie. In ordaining of ce­remonies, the admonition meaneth no o­therwise than the Frenche Churches: for though the Eldershippe abollishe those which are vnprofitable, yet it may be don with consent & alowance of other Chur­ches; for which cause hee entreateth of conferences page. 30. 31. &c. That hee saith of the admonition, as though they misliked a prescript forme of prayer, is an vtter vntruth, for there are not anye wordes which shewe they mislike a pre­script forme of prayers. As for vnleaue­ned bread, it is but proper to Geneua onely, & now our Church hath alowed the other: why should he then make any diffe­rence or strife about it? The matters of mariage or such like heere named, as they are handled with vs are ciuil; but as they become doubtfull in any questi­on of God his worde, or what is expedi­ent for the Church to doe, for auoyding of offence, belongeth vnto the Eccle­siasticall seigniorie: and so that diffe­rence [Page 179] is aunsweared. In the other also it is defended, as vnlawfull for a Minister of the Worde, to be occupi­ed in Ciuill affayres. Againste this, he in vaine bringeth an exception in El­ders, which rule onely. Neither is it simplye a Ciuill thing to giue testimo­nies in writinges for to doe it, for matters Ecclesiasticall: as for sound­nesse of fayth, for assuring them to be receiued which were excommuni­cate, or such like, it is an Ecclesiastical, not a Ciuill action. Touching the or­der of the French Church, for publi­shing of Bookes, we consent, that where the Discipline is established and an or­der taken, that men with modesly in a Synode may be sufficiently heard, and satisfied, that it ought to be in force, and as an Eeclesiasticall order obeyed; from which yet a man may swarue, be­ing dryuen to gyue defence to the truth of God. The next setteth his conceits in the laughter of all men. For maye we not mislyke, that he which orday­neth, shoulde bydde the ordayned, re­ceaue the holye Ghoste, which he can [Page 180] not gyue, nor hath promise that his im­position of handes shall distribute auye gifts, and yet alow that that place for instruction be repeated and intreased of? Concerning his long srory of sub­scription, this may be sufficient shortly to aunswere, both to shew our [...]uitye in iudgement with the Churches, and also to satisfie the Church of England. First therefore we say, that we haue alwayes beene readye, according to our dutye to subscribe to her Maiesties supreame au­thority, and to the Articles of religion, concerning the doctrine of fayth and of the Sacramentes, which is all that is requyred by law. Secondly, when (as it is in Fraunce) the substaunce of Dis­cipline shall be out of the worde confir­med, and the controuersies betweene vs equally and orderly decided: We will also be bounde to subscribe as they are. His first quotation out of the Adm. doth set down that in a different letter, which is not there to be found. Which prac­tize is done onely to disgrace vs vnius [...] ­ly with the Magistrate. The other two sentences, though we iudge them [Page 181] somewhat hardly set downe, yet they must be charitably interpreted, accor­ding to the course of their Booke; the first of the trueth of Discipline, not of doctrine, the other of Ministers, so cal­led and inabled as God his worde doth allowe. The rest is worth no aunswere, the matter beeing handled before, and On the Act. 1. & 6 Gualter being a party with you against M. Iewell and M. Nowel in that point, though againste you in the question of Church election. Now, in stead of this heape of disagreementes which are at one with them selues, let him accorde these following, drawne from the wry­ters D. Whitg. s. booke. Page. 146. who are of his iudgement. No man for any crime is to be secluded from any law fall vocation, if he repent him and become a new man, and there be no generall com­maundements contrary herevnto: But this doctrine is consonant to the whole course of the Gospell, Yet we all hold that Traytours are not to be admitted Byshops, or of the Queenes Guarde. They maintain this speach of Ambrose Ibid. page 191. on the 4. of the Ephes. In the beginning it was permitted to euery one to preach the [Page 182] Gospel, baptize and expound the Scriptures; but when the Churche was enlarged, certain Parishioners were appoynted, and goucrnors, and other officers ordayned in the Church. Yet now Ministers maye not preach without a lisence. It is defended by the former Booke, that The worde of God is as effectuall when it is read, as when it is preached, and reading is preaching, yet the Booke of Common-prayer preferreth Preaching before Homilies. And him­selfe sayth, that Preaching is the most excellent meanes to ingender fayth. This man condemneth and reiecteth Doctours as new, yet the former booke Page 425. sayth, that by auncient wry­ters. A Catechistes office was necessarie in the Church, and distinct from the Pastour. The same booke fol. 700. in the margi­nall note hath, Nothing ought to be reade vnder the name of Scripture but the Cano­nicall, In the ru­brick howe the rest of holy scrip­ture. &c. Iewel apol. p. 2. p. 122. Contrary to the booke of Common prayer which appoynteth the Apocri­pha to be reade vnder the name of holy scripture. Iewel saith, that for one bishop to haue authority ouer an other, is neyther by Christ, Peter, nor Paule, nor by any right of [Page 183] God his word. Yet they do by preaching and wryting still maintaine it by the ex­amples of Peter, Timothy, and Titus. In the aunswere to the authority of Pe­ter Martyr, it is sayde that in our Church D. whit. in the end. religion is onely reformed to the quicke. But the examiner sayth, they see weigh­tyer things in the Church, wherat they may Page. 35. be greeued as other good men are. Now we come to his questions, which althogh Questions. they he captious, and therefore by lawe they are not to bee aunsweared: yet to shewe our sincerity in that which we holde, we will make him an aunswere. To the first we saye, Discipline, tou­ching 1 the substaunce, is fully described out of the worde of God, in the booke of discipline, & the treatise of ecclesiastical gouernment, and in the most of the soun­dest writers of our time. The second is 2 answered, partly by the former, & partly by this treatise. In steed of this we aske him what be y ^• writings which haue cō ­futed by the scripture, all those foresayd godly & learned writings? To the third 3 we aunswere, it is no sounde diuinity to exclude Christian Princes from their [Page 184] gouerment in Church-matters. Concer­ning Excommunication he hath his an­swere before. To the two other clawses, let the Papists answere, for they are ma­litiously imputed vnto vs. And we de­maund of him, whether it be sound diui­nity, that when the Prince will eate flesh in Lent or do such like, shee must haue a Dispensation from an Archby­shop? And that the writes of his Courts euen in causes ciuill, and matters of in­staunce should be in his owne name, and not in the name of her most excellēt Ma­iesty? The fourth is aunswered in the Treatise of the Eldership: And we aske 4 of him what pregnant proofe he hath ei­ther from scripture or Father, that Ec­clesiasticall Gouernment shoulde be ex­ercised in a wholle Diocesse, by a Chan­celor or Commissarye beeing a meere lay-man? To the 5. and 6. both, wee 5. 6. aunswere: That rebaptization is con­demned by the Worde of God, and that those hee speaketh of be maried folkes: And wee require him to prooue by the Worde of God, that in case of the ne­cessity which they pretend, a Woman [Page 185] may baptize: And to prooue by the same that men may be forbidden to mary in Lent or such like times. The seuenth 7 is aunswered in that to the 5. and 6. And we demaunde of him how they can prooue it lawfull to admit a Popish priest, fallen from the Gospell and still vnapt to teach? To the eyght we aun­swere, 8 there is the like reason of the Supper and of Baptisme: And we re­quire him to prooue by the Worde of God, that a Deacon may baptize? and when he hath proued that, let him proue why hee may not minister the Supper also? To the ninth we answere, that to 9 the Ministers, there may be diuersity of rewardes giuen, so long as none haue to little, nor any too much. And we require him to prooue by the Word of God, that a Minister of the Gospell may carry the pompe of men of estate. To the 10 tenth we aunswere, as is set downe in the Treatise, that a Minister should be apt to teach: We would haue him proue that any other may preache, who is not apt to teach. To the Eleuenth we an­swere 11 affirmatiuely, and require him to [Page 186] prooue by the Scriptures, that an Arch­byshop may put Preachers to silence, for not subscribing to that which is not required by the lawe. To the twelfth 12 we aunswere: it is not lawfull for one to be thrust out of his Ministery, for shew­ing modestly in his sermons, the incon­uenience of vnleauened breade in the Lords Supper: that all vsury as wee speake it, whither biting or nibbling is vnlawfull. And we require of him to prooue by the Worde of God, that it is tollerable to suffer Drunkardes, whore­mongers, ignoraunt men of occupation in the Ministry, and for not subscribing (where Law doth not enforce it) or for the not vsing of some ceremonie to turne out godly learned Ministers. And make a pitifull seperation of the Pastor and the flocke. The Lorde giue vs to be of one minde, and wherein we agree, let vs proceede by the rule of loue.